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In the frenzy over the Trump team's talks with Russians, a darker story may be getting missed: how "deep state" surveillance powers control American leaders.

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The 31-year National Security Agency veteran blew the whistle when he realized technology that he had developed to protect Americans was being used to spy on them. In a wide-ranging, 45-minute discussion, he and Truthdig Editor-in-Chief Robert Scheer discuss who's responsible for the surveillance program, how authorities' desire for blackmail power through mass spying was a factor in their failure to stop the 9/11 attacks, and more.

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Ahead of Obama's anticipated announcement of new NSA regulations, the Truthdig columnist and the NSA whistle-blower discuss with The Real News Network's Paul Jay what the president should tell the American people about the unprecedented domestic spying program he presides over.

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