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America the Great ... Police State

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Posted on Jul 28, 2009
police car
AP / Nick Ut

By Gore Vidal

(Page 4)

My last view of what looked to me to be parade’s end occurred during a walk in the woods that I took below a Duke University campus building, where I saw a broken bridge over a stream. I turned to what looked to be a local farmer, who realized that I was looking with “suspicious” interest at a vast pile of repair work: bags of cement, etc., and he anticipated my question: “They’re going to rebuild this bridge—it’s something very, very big,” he said. “Why in the middle of the woods?” I asked. “There are no roads here.” He said, “No, there’s a trail, true, it’s not much of a trail.” “So why are they building such a huge bridge,” I wondered, “when they’ve been happy apparently for many years with a very small bridge?” And he said, “Well, we’ve been told by the feds that they fear that there may be civilian insurrections. And they want to be prepared for them, and they need this bridge, no matter how small, to cross the stream in case of an emergency.”

Needless to say, I had no quick rejoinder. But he seemed to want to talk, and so I said, “What was here before?” And he said, “A small bridge which a small pickup truck could go back and forth over.” So I asked, “And who told you that it was in case of civilian problems?” And he said, “Well, everybody told us that and explained the size of it and most people here thought it was better to have a big bridge than no bridge at all, and here we are.”

I went back to the lecture hall at Duke where I’d been speaking, and I chatted about the woods, about the bridge. Nobody seemed to have noticed it. I asked a politically minded professor, and he said, “Well, it’s a problem.” He said, “The government’s getting ready for something; we don’t know what it is, but something’s obviously on their minds that’s disturbing them.” And I said, “Revolution?” “Oh,” he laughed, “this is North Carolina, don’t bother about that, but whatever it is, they’re putting a lot of money into this bridge.”

A year or two later, I took the same walk again. There was a very large bridge of solid cement, and it looked entirely finished. I found another gentleman of the forest, and I said, “Well, can you find much use for this huge and expensive bridge?” He said, “It certainly was expensive, I can tell you that.” He had the happy look of someone who had benefited from the expense. We chatted about the government and what they were up to, and a certain wariness could be heard in our dialogue. We were puzzled; something unexpected had happened, something really unimaginable—a vast work had been constructed for imminent horrors, it would have seemed. I did ask here and there about it, but I was given no answer.

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By Gordy, August 5, 2009 at 10:28 am Link to this comment

Stcfarms, do you think this kind of raft could be made ocean-going and unsinkable?  That would be a feat of engineering, I would guess - assuming we’re still talking cheap and low-tech.  It would have to self-right when capsized. 

It would get some distance between me and the police state but not really weaken the police state (desultory nod to topic LOL).

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By stcfarms, August 5, 2009 at 8:55 am Link to this comment

Gordy,

I thought that you might like it. My raft will have all of the modern conveniences yet leave no carbon footprint. I once had grandiose plans of millions of tiny floating homesteads dotting the oceans, growing vegetation to reverse global warming.

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By Les Ismore, August 5, 2009 at 8:22 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Waaa, Waaa, Waaa. You left wing, cry baby, candy asses make me sick. You all attack Fascist “Amerika” and dream of living in a worker’s paradise utopia like Cuba or Venezuela. You embrace Che, Stalin, Mao, et. al, who murdered millions, and included poets, artists, and intellectuals, whether they agreed with the “liberators” or not. Che, in particular enjoyed murdering the intellectuals and artists. Try commenting like this in China and see where that lands you. You only see a police state (real or perceived) when it is run by someone you don’t like. This country is still better than anywhere else you can live. If it is not, why are you still here, when you can move to Chavez’s paradise and then be subject to being muzzled when you fall out of favor with the whim of the day? Gore, your elitism and self-hate is showing!

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By John Hanks, August 5, 2009 at 7:56 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

There is a Sicilian mafia and there is a Jewish mafia.  Neocons, Wall Street, and the body parts folks were all Jewish mafia.  Many Zionists use dual citizenship like a mafia.  Jews in general are trustworthy, loyal, helpful, etc.  They are usually above the average because they understand moral issues.

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By Inherit The Wind, August 5, 2009 at 7:28 am Link to this comment

Anarcissie:

You didn’t catch me “red-handed” in anything.  MarthaA made a completely inaccurate statement, which I called her on, and you chose to back her up on it.

As usual, you are backing the wrong horse.

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By Gordy, August 5, 2009 at 7:27 am Link to this comment

Shepharad, was that last post of yours supposed to be addressed to me..?  Here’s my two cents anyway: I like what you said; I think that it’s fine to preserve the distinctiveness of an ancient culture, but the problem is that rivalry seems to always follow this like a shadow. 

You said “What the 20th century taught us was that Jews, however assimilated, are really not wanted except in a Jewish state.”  This is not a problem specific to Jews; it is not like they have some special obnoxiousness.  grin  Not having their own state made them easier to persecute, and sovereignty has given them some extra weight, but think of all the other ethnic peoples who still have no state of their own and never will, like the Kurds.  Getting a state of their own solved a little bit of one lucky culture’s trouble and brought about new troubles.  The same underlying problem defines all of these troubles: group-selfishness, ‘us vs them’. 

If the Scots were a persecuted minority in Britain I might fight for independence and dignity because they are my people, but I would tolerate no illusion that this in itself addresses the fundamental mental/spiritual sickness that ceaselessly drives these perennial conflicts. 

People here like football (soccer) and I think it’s a nice game, but I loathe the chanting and aggressive mob-minded rivalry, and I can somehow say this as a fan of boxing.  But boxing can be intimate and without hatred, and is a direct encounter between two individuals (yeah I have qualms about it too but let’s not get sidetracked) rather than a virtual clash of armies or nations.  I have friends who assert that it is great to feel a part of something and that only a minority ruin it.  I am not sure.  I think a minority are extremely violent to the point where it gets physical, but I think that hate and resentment is more common than the sports fans admit.  I have not made my mind up about whether a ‘sense of belonging’ or self-identification necessarily leads to hatred, but I thought I’d leave the question open for you.  To me, looking at history, ethnic and political groups seems to be playing chess against each other with little concern for the common good.  I might be wrong.  Maybe it has been like this but can change. 

Stcfarms, that is kind of a beautiful idea.  It definitely catches my interest.  I like the notion of living on a boat, and this is a self-sufficient boat.

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By ardee, August 5, 2009 at 5:02 am Link to this comment

The UBoat in question was captured off the coast of West Africa.

The submarine watches along our coasts during WW2 , of which several still exist, one just south of Pacifica ,Ca. on Devil’s Slide I have visited several times, were manned by Coast Guard Auxilliary, a hastily recruited force after Pearl Harbor. In addition, the Guard itself, the Air Force and Naval air units also, ran regular sub watch patrols both by ship and by air.

It is true that all citizens living along the coasts were asked to watch as well but to insist that we relied upon civilian assets is just another false “fact” from the usual source of such.

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By MarthaA, August 4, 2009 at 10:16 pm Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt,

“For the record I would dissolve the DHS and Northern Command and save all that money too.”

Me, too.

There was a genuine threat during World War II from German U-Boats prowling the American coasts and there wasn’t a Homeland Security then, we relied upon the people to keep a watch out, which is still all the people can rely on. 

http://www.msichicago.org/whats-here/exhibits/u-505/

The Bush administration got carried away, because these private occupations encounters compared to World War II is nothing.

It would save the country a lot of money to completely get rid of the DHS and Northern Command and whatever other Commands that are not needed and go back to what the military was in World War II, only updated, because that worked well.

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By Sepharad, August 4, 2009 at 9:58 pm Link to this comment

stcfarms, I don’t believe that Jews or anyone else have been chosen by a god, if god there be. People who defend aggression on the basis of some god’s favor are irrational. If there is a god, what kind of a god would tell his people to kill in his name? What kind of person would tell one of his children to kill another?

You needn’t be religious to be a Jew (though extremely religious people are Jews, just as religious extremism permeates Arabs, Persians and Turks, and a really wild mix peoples who are Christians. I’m not saying there is no component of spirituality in the world—I’ve seen it and experienced it. 

What matters is history, culture, tradition, and respect for other human beings’ lives. Israel is the cradle of Jewish civilization, history, culture, ethics. Not necessarily religion: my great-great grandfather who who returned to Israel in 1828 was on the run from Romanian pogroms in 1828. My great-grandfather told his sons he wanted at least one of them to go to America to ensure one branch of the family survived. (He had no confidence in Europe or England.) My grandfather, like his father, was not a religious man but liked to sing and was cantor in St. Louis temples. My mother was a Communist when she was young but tore up her card when Stalin signed the non-aggression act with Hitler. (My grandmother’s mother’s family were completely assimilated in Dresden, but they all died in Buchenwald.) My family in America is also thoroughly assimilated, soaked in American history and culture, but keep Jewish traditions and holidays, take “Next year in Jerusalem”  seriously. We also stayed in close touch with our family and friends in Israel.   

What the 20th century taught us was that Jews, however assimilated, are really not wanted except in a Jewish state. I’ve met people who prefer Anne Frank the victim to Israeli fighters. Arabs who lived in Israel before and since the Romans renamed it Palestine are equally entitled to their homeland—though old Israel/Palestine was much larger than it is now. Jews and Arabs are only in conflict because around 700CE, Islam began and, as an evangelical religion like Christianity, demanded conversion (at least outwardly) and second-class citizenship for Jews, called “dhimmihood”.

Jews and Arabs understsand one another better than they understand secularists—we’re closely-related Semitic tribes, basically get along, and could be excellent neighbors. My own experiences with Arabs in and out of Israel have been easy, friendly. Much of what Israel is doing just now demands criticism, and I do. In this country, American progressives and liberals (me included) shrank in horror for what our Bush-led government was doing in our name earlier and post-9/11, but it took us eight years to change that government. There have been Israeli governments that aggressively sought peace and there have been Israeli governments—am thinking of Sharon—who saw there would be no Jewish country and no peace without returning some land to the Palestinians. Sharon abruptly orders all Jewish settlers out of Gaza. It might have looked better if he’d negotiated that withdrawl with Abu Mazen.

Peace has become much harder to achieve than it was in the’70s, when Sadat visited the Knesset. Between that time and this, Israelis continuee to press Arab landowners to sell them more lands, have fought in the streets of Arab towns and killed many Arabs in Judea, Samaria and Gaza. This only props up the extremist antagonism of Arabs, which in turn feeds Israeli paranoia and makes them more see even Israeli Arabs as the enemy. Lieberman is treating Israeli Arabs like non-citiens, non-persons. This is inexcusable, not just wrong but destructive to any peace. Arabs and Jews need two states. Any country who is concerned can help Israelis and Palestinians achieve this daunting task.

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By Night-Gaunt, August 4, 2009 at 8:50 pm Link to this comment

“So? It was still an attack.”

Such was each of your ‘answers’ to me. So? Do facts matter to you or rhetorical points?

“While I agree with the conclusion that the P/A and the DHS are totally unnecessary, how do you figure there’s only been one attack on the mainland of the US? I can think of several, easily.”

“US history didn’t start in the 20th century, you know.”

Your response to MarthaA, after she stated that there had been only one such attack Inherit The Wind. Note the bold highlights. Caught you red-handed, wrong again.

And also note a response to an attack isn’t an attack itself. It is a retaliation. Oh and remember the “Maine” was in Cuban waters when it blew up under suspicious but unproven circumstances that were blamed on the Spanish which gave T. Roosvelt his “splendid little war” in 1898.

For the record I would dissolve the DHS and Northern Command and save all that money too.

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By Folktruther, August 4, 2009 at 8:34 pm Link to this comment

You’re right, Radson, the situation is far too serious for recipicral rehtoric.  People should stop rebuting mine with theirs.

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By stcfarms, August 4, 2009 at 8:29 pm Link to this comment

Gordy,

You do not need a wilderness to be self sufficient, England has rivers that you can live on. I am building a raft that will be powered by undershot water wheels with a garden on the upper deck. I will be using plastic barrels as a base for my raft. The raft will produce all of the food we need and far more power than we can use. I can build 32 square feet of unsinkable raft capable of supporting 1,000 pounds for $58 US. There are cheaper styles of rafts made from styrofoam or plastic bottles and you can get information on all three styles at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/riverats/

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By radson, August 4, 2009 at 6:48 pm Link to this comment

Hello Folktruther

Your posts of late are humorous to say the least and obviously designed to stir a certain controversy ,which ,by the way ,maintains a certain continuity of the discussion .Calling commenter’s ‘dingbats’ is ;
don’t you think a little premature because they don,t subscribe to your point of view.Is not Truthdig a site which promotes literary intercourse amongst opinioned individuals.The choice of
the term Lemming and all of it’s implications ,does not only apply to the one’s that you scorn ,but actually applies to all of us ,with regards to the global instability which reigns at the moment.The massive
security blitz that is going in the US at the moment could be interpreted as a serious case of paranoia promoted by the so -called experts that sound more like fools as the alarm bells sound.Sepharad may
not appeal to your philosophies ,but she is no fool and yes even Zionist’s may not concur with the Foreign Policy that is being promoted at the moment with regards to the Middle-Eastern muddle,but Gore Vidal’s
argument was concerning the American transformation of society towards a dangerous ,Soviet model ’ and that in itself should lead most people to a serious realization that reciprocal rhetoric is perhaps a
convenient distraction that should not be taken lightly.

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By Gordy, August 4, 2009 at 6:47 pm Link to this comment

Shepharad, I look as an outsider at the Palestine situation and see a powerful, favoured nation bullying and ghettoizing the native occupants of that land.  I feel that Israel’s self-justification tends to strike a rather shrill note. 

At the same time I fully acknowledge the validity of what you have said - Israel’s creation may have been relatively recent, but it was no more blood-soaked than the founding of many other nation states.  I say, ‘Israel is here, get used to it’.  Above all, there are human beings there, trying to get by, who have real everyday needs and concerns. 

And it is absurd to idealize those who wish its annihilation.  Middle-Eastern states with appalling human rights records and bloody histories all their own cut a risible figure as they try to mount the high horse, complaining about the iniquities of Zionism and the West.  Whether Zionist or Islamist, I have little regard for these aggressive partisan convictions - in fact, I think they are themselves the problem. 

I have never seen anything like a ‘positive Zionism’ - I associate Zionism with Biblical delusion and clannish self-interest at the expense of those other peoples who are unfortunate enough to be on the ‘other side’ of the mythological struggle for Paradise.  I am not anything like an expert on Zionism.  If people can indeed look after their shared interest and culture without following some crazy doomsday script, or following the destructive logic of ‘any loss sustained by the ‘other’ is our gain’, then I approve of that kind of Zionism, or Islamism, or whatever. 

Stcfarms, I would LOVE to be self-sufficient and far away from most of this civilized bullshit (it ain’t all bad, has stuff I’d try to take with me), but I am a city-dweller with no bushcraft or anything like that, and besides, there’s not really wilderness in the UK in the way there is in the US.  There was one guy living as a hunter-gatherer for many years - he was always in the news because it is so unusual here.  When he got too old to live in a cave on the beach he was taken into a social housing unit. 

This is leaving aside the question of what would happen if many people all got the same idea…

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By Inherit The Wind, August 4, 2009 at 6:24 pm Link to this comment

Actually, Garth, you idiot, they weren’t Jews but a tough New Jersey Italians—one was half my age and had played linebacker for a state u. Not a Jew. Not fat. Fast as lightning.

I love how you threaten how you’re gonna hit me…I’m just so shaking—I’ve been hit by far tougher than you.

You are what’s wrong with America today.  Nutcases like you and the birthers.

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By Inherit The Wind, August 4, 2009 at 6:24 pm Link to this comment

Actually, Garth, you idiot, they weren’t Jews but a tough New Jersey Italians—one was half my age and had played linebacker for a state u. Not a Jew. Not fat. Fast as lightning.

I love how you threaten how you’re gonna hit me…I’m just so shaking—I’ve been hit by

You are what’s wrong with America today.  Nutcases like you and the birthers.

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By stcfarms, August 4, 2009 at 3:52 pm Link to this comment

Sepharad,

The problem is exponentially increased by the three major religions in the area and the book that influences their actions. It seems that these religions are purposely influencing events to make the prophesies of armageddon come true. You all claim to be the chosen people of the god of Abraham but logic would dictate that a sapient being would not be a racist. Since it is illogical that your god would be a racist then the logical conclusion is that somewhere along the line a (gasp!) human made a mistake in interpretaion of its intent. Rather than destroy the world on what may be a clerical error perhaps the three religions could get together and rexamine the evidence and figure out where they went wrong. It should be remembered that 2/3rds of the people of the world do not believe in the Mithra religions and the actions of these religions endanger them.

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By stcfarms, August 4, 2009 at 3:12 pm Link to this comment

Gordy, Mark,

There is a way to take away the power of the police state, self sufficiency. Modern slaves are held with fiat money chains that are every bit as strong as the iron chains of the past. Breaking these chains requires the ability to produce what you need without a state approved ‘job’ or borrowing fiat money from them. There is a massive underground economy that is thriving without a state approved job. An underground economy does not feel the NEED to beg for scraps from the faux wealthy because they have nothing that we need. Until the sheep learn that wealth is food, water, energy et cetera they will be slaves to the criminals that supply these needs at incredibly high prices.

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By Sepharad, August 4, 2009 at 3:01 pm Link to this comment

garth, in my Aug. 4 comment I asked some questions about one of your sentence’s meanings. If you have a chance to explain would appreciate it.

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By Sepharad, August 4, 2009 at 2:54 pm Link to this comment

Gordy, We’ve had other rational, interesting conversations with garth and our discussions do get over-heated. Since his most recent seemingly-anti-Semitic exchanges with Inherit have not been entirely of his others, I’ll suspend my opinion until more conversations have taken place.

I’m routinely demonized here by Folktruther (less frequently by others) as a ziofascist, Zionist lemming, one who identifies with evil etc.—FT is very good at fabricating names to call me. I am in fact a secular Zionist who is not happy with the current direction Israel is taking but my reaction is to try to change that, not give it up as a bad job. I love Israel, have family there, have friends there both Arab and Jew, and, like the 95-year-old Sabra quoted by Omop, am disheartened and disappointed with the increasing reliance on military force and increasing power of religious extremists which I regard as a threat to the state of Israel perhaps not as great but at least as real as the threat posed by her enemies from the outside.
My affiliations with Israel are Peace Now and its political party, Meretz, which is peace-oriented but not pacifist. Its most articulate spokesman is founder and writer Amos Oz. Also, Israel has moved so far to capitalism and so far from its communal roots that it has weakened the moral fabric to the extent that money has become the bottomline for many Israelis, which in itself has led to a larger upper and upper middle cass, a smaller middle class, and a working and unemployed class increasingly poor, Arabs as well as Jews. 

Omop, one the many who despise Israel, quoted President Truman to the effect that Jews would become as cruel as their oppressors if they ever managed to break their status as underdog. It is absolutely true that oppressed people do not emerge as kind and forbearing souls, until they have become accustomed to a modicum of security and some of the scars of the past recede—but these are constantly being exascerbated by continuing Arab hostility to Israel, not to mention the attacks by Hamas and Hezbollah. All these simply push Israelis into being more militaristic and more willing to separate their conscience from the acts of defense to hold off the enemy—which is not really the Palestinians but other Arabs’ doing, though the Palestinians are the ones most likely to be pressed into service as suicide bombers Israelis felt secure, there would probably be far less fighting and more deal-making and cooperation toward the second state, Palestine.

I tend to defend Israel more hotly than I might if I felt that so many people here and elsewhere in the progressive liberal circles where I otherwise have many a common cause, were not so determined to destroy it, not so prone to hate it, and tried harder to understand what most Israelis feel, need, fear. There are a great many individuals and actions in Israel that are despicable, and no one here is more critical of these. But when the whole state and all its people are declared fascist and worse, I feel compelled to defend what is defensible. So many people who post here have always been safe in their own country, sheltered from the realities of the world, and feel free to criticize the actions of others who do not live in such a coddled environment. On the other hand, they seem quite able to explain away despicable terrorist acts against Israel and glamorize those thugs and religious extremists who would destroy it if they could. So sometimes I over-react. And yes, I am very paranoid re the futures of Jews in the world and the Jewish state of Israel. Inherit once said something to the effect that just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean you’re not in danger.

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By Mark A. Adams JD/MBA, August 4, 2009 at 1:37 pm Link to this comment

Hey, Gordy.  It seems like my view is similar to Gray’s although I haven’t read his book, but I do have a lot of examples showing that our government is despotic.  However, the article which I provided the link to is published on The Daily Censored http://dailycensored.com/ which is the blog for Project Censored http://www.projectcensored.org/  My work is published on a couple of other online news outlets, too.

The goal does seem to be to deprive the people of the means to hold government accountable.  Unfortunately, as shown in my article http://dailycensored.com/2009/06/24/why-does-the-u-s-government-torture-people/ the most powerful means of holding government agents accountable has been eliminated, and this has resulted in horrible abuses. 

In addition, if anyone thinks that we still have the power to control our government through elections, ask yourself whether you would trust anyone to count our votes in secret, and then see what has happened now that our votes are counted in secret by reading Have American Elections Really Been Stolen? – The Proof at http://www.opednews.com/articles/Have-American-Elections-Re-by-Mark-Adams-081029-64.html  It was a Top Scoop on Scoop for several days. See it at http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0810/S00428.htm

Furthermore, if anyone thinks that our government still follows the rule of law or that it wouldn’t cover up election fraud, see Would Congressional Democrats Cover Up Neo-Con Election Fraud? No Way, Right?!?! at http://www.opednews.com/articles/Would-Congressional-Democr-by-Mark-Adams-081102-529.html This article was also a Top Scoop on Scoop for several days.  See it at http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0811/S00030.htm

For more on the obvious disregard of the best interests and wishes of the general public, see http://www.opednews.com/articles/Senate-Bailout-a-k-a-Bank-by-Mark-Adams-081001-161.html

Finally, for another interesting perspective on what our rulers goals seem to be, check out http://www.opednews.com/articles/If-I-were-a-Terrorist-I-d-by-Mark-Adams-081005-666.html  After all, if we’re poor and hungry, we probably will just roll over, give up, and let government take care of everything, right? 

Some may think that is a good idea.  However, all forms of government, no matter what you call them, result in rule by an aristocracy as government agents are given various powers over the general public.  Some have very limited power and some have vast power.  Therefore, the question is how can you keep the aristocrats from abusing their power. 

Once, some had the means to prevent government abuse of power, but now 3 corporations control the secret vote counts and only prosecuting princes control who can be prosecuted.  Unsurprisingly, we find ourselves living in a police state.  Of course, the only ones who realize this are those of us who are paying attention and those of us who experience it personally.  To learn more about my personal experience, see see “Justice” in Florida’s Supreme Court!?! at http://blip.tv/file/1339250 and don’t miss the links below the video.

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By Gordy, August 4, 2009 at 12:02 pm Link to this comment

Mark, I had a look at your website earlier. 

A few years ago the philosopher John Gray argued in his ‘Straw Dogs’ that the middle-class was being castrated and that we were on the return-swing of the pendulum toward despotism.  Do you agree with this perspective?  I expect that as - it seems to me - an engaged activist type you will disagree with the notion of inevitability, of a cyclical grind of history, but agree with the nature of recent social changes.  And it looks to me that this prediction of this kind of social change has been borne out by time so far.  The recent economic crisis has made skilled people into wage slaves, more than ever. 

I would like to hear your view.

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By Mark A. Adams JD/MBA, August 4, 2009 at 11:48 am Link to this comment

Gore Vidal is absolutely right about our country being turned into a police state.  Your color or ethnic background does not matter, you are either part of “law” enforcement, a person in the power structure recognized by “law” enforcement, or one who can be treated like a second class citizen or worse.

If you don’t believe me, just take a look at the truth about the horrible crimes that are committed every day by agents of the U.S. government and why they get away with committing horrible crimes.  See Why does the U.S. government torture people? at http://dailycensored.com/2009/06/24/why-does-the-u-s-government-torture-people/  You’ll learn that the “news” media has kept you in the dark about a serious danger to your family and that according to a couple of U.S. Supreme Court Justices, we are no more than slaves.

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By Gordy, August 4, 2009 at 11:32 am Link to this comment

ITW, when I read your reply to my complaint about demonization, I wanted to tell you that I am well aware of the kind of stereotype Garth was drawing on, but that it still did not justify the extreme reaction it got; even if he IS a bit racist, it’s not helpful at all and will only serve to further convince him that Jews are insulated against criticism and it’s all a great Zionist conspiracy - I don’t know, whatever he thinks. 

However, after he stooped so low in retaliation I feel it’s almost a moot point.  It’s pretty weird to have a game of physical intimidation within a purely textual medium… 

So much of the debate on here doesn’t deserve the name - it’s just a playing out of neurotic symptoms.  I’ve seen this thing ‘Christian Apologetics’ where church scholars work full-time to explain away all the Bible’s plot-holes and irrationalities; I see something like this on internet forums.  Everyone starts out from different angles, and they obviously can’t all be right about everything, yet everyone acts as though they are.  Something is fundamentally wrong with this picture, no?  How can they ever arrive at the truth if they only want to become better at arguing for the viewpoint they started out with? 

Garth, that vile trash-talking was just for yourself; no one benefits from that, including you, even if it makes you feel good at the time.  You would at least let off more steam and do less harm by smashing windows and graffitiing walls like a disaffected 13 year-old. 

Judge a person by their means more than their ends.  Someone who shoves their utopia down your throat has the wrong idea about utopia and therefore should shut up, relax and stop trying to argue anything at all.  Time to LISTEN.

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By Folktruther, August 4, 2009 at 10:49 am Link to this comment

Omop quoting Truman, that when Jews got on top they would be as vicious and cruel as when they were discriminated against, was precsient.  But some Jews don’t like it and I am one of those.  The Jewish tradition has had a prophetic strain in it, and this shows often in social theory by Jews.

Averney today on Counterpunch tells of a letter he received from Dov Somebody who displays this prophetic tradition. Dov states that he is a 95 year old native born Israel (Sabra) who has plowed fields, planted trees, sired sons, grandsons and great gransons, and fought wars for Israel, sustaining wounds for her.  And he is sick of what it has become.

He renounces his faith in a Zionism that has failed and renounces his loyalty to a fascist Israel and her mad dreams.  As Averny relates, he is like a modern Jeramiah who who denounces immorality and prophesies the doom that will result from it.

Like averny, howeveer, I think that he is politically wrong.  Zionism has been hijacked by Aipac, Sepharad, and the Zionist lemmings, but there is no reason why an anti-fascist zionism can’t still produce a real one or two state solution.  What is essential however is to provide the Palestinians with support and, particularly, better weapons, and to boycott, etc Israel to combat Ziofascism. 

What Dov should do is join the Palestinians in their struggle, not simply resign in dispair.  And, especially, to combat Aipac, ziofascists,  and the zioinst lemmings in the US, and their bloodthirsty death fantasies.  And foster a distinction between anti-semitism and anti-zionism in the Amereican population, and oppose the latter.  This is a current tendency that can be strengthened.
              ***
gordy you’re a dingbat, as I believe I mentioned before.

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By garth, August 4, 2009 at 10:17 am Link to this comment

I love an unbiased observer:

By M Henri Day, August 4 at 11:20 am #


Interesting turn this discussion has taken, and the passions it has revealed ! Not merely that in the US the perception that the police are incapable/do not wish to protect the citizenry seems to be spreading to all ethnic groups, but that these ethnic groups seem to be arming themselves (yes, I realise that the article talks about «self-defence techniques» and says nothing about arms, but does anyone really believe that in a country like the United States, fire arms won’t be employed ?) against each other. No confidence in the state’s monopoly of violence, armed ethnic groups in an ethnicly diverse country - haven’t we seen where this leads before ? The country is a little more than 220 years old and last fought a devastating civil war a little less than 150 years ago ; is another one in the offing ?...

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By Inherit The Wind, August 4, 2009 at 9:58 am Link to this comment

Well, Garth, you’ve revealed your nazi-ness.

“typical fat jewball”?  Sheesh, you racists aren’t only insipid, your fukin’ un-original too!

I may be fat but I ain’t typical. And I’ve put 265lb athletes on the ground during kick-boxing rounds, so it ain’t all fat. And I know a little about macho assholes like you—though most of the ones I know have the saving grace of not being rabid bigots—unlike you.

Giving maniacs like you martial arts training is about as irresponsible as giving Ted Bundy a pretty girl in an empty parking lot.

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By elisalouisa, August 4, 2009 at 9:27 am Link to this comment

Sepharad:“Many Jews who came to the U.S. in the early to mid 19th century migrated to the Western U.S., and a fair number married into Native American families.”
I had just such a friend. She told me that she had Jewish and Cherokee ancesters on her mother’s side. Did not delve further into it. Would have made for an interesting story I am sure.
You can count me in with with you, Truthfolker and ITW as to some comments being anti-Semitic on this board.

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By omop, August 4, 2009 at 8:34 am Link to this comment

M Henri Day, August 4 at 11:20 am

Thoughtful commentary. According to press reports gun dealers in US are doing a “land mine business”.

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By stcfarms, August 4, 2009 at 8:33 am Link to this comment

Inherit

Stereotypes will always exist because they are passed down from parent to child. My experience with them came when my class took an IQ test, the nun thought that since I was an Indian that I must have cheated to get 162. It never occurred to her that since no one else got over 130 there was no one that I could have copied the answers from. To this day when I go home to northern Wisconsin I am just another ‘dumb fu**ing Indian’ to the locals.

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By M Henri Day, August 4, 2009 at 8:20 am Link to this comment

Interesting turn this discussion has taken, and the passions it has revealed ! Not merely that in the US the perception that the police are incapable/do not wish to protect the citizenry seems to be spreading to all ethnic groups, but that these ethnic groups seem to be arming themselves (yes, I realise that the article talks about «self-defence techniques» and says nothing about arms, but does anyone really believe that in a country like the United States, fire arms won’t be employed ?) against each other. No confidence in the state’s monopoly of violence, armed ethnic groups in an ethnicly diverse country - haven’t we seen where this leads before ? The country is a little more than 220 years old and last fought a devastating civil war a little less than 150 years ago ; is another one in the offing ?...

Henri

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By Inherit The Wind, August 4, 2009 at 7:43 am Link to this comment

Yeah it is rare to be on the same side as FT AND Seph.

Gordy—you’re a Brit and your nation has different stereotypes of Jews than Americans do.  Garth was hitting a common stereotype of Jews as scholarly, non-athletic, unfashionable even in myopia (Pince-nez), and, of course, cowardly back-stabbers.

How do you tell if I’m a man or a woman?  Well, I may not be pretty at 5’10” and 215 lbs, and my wife is about 5’2” and 119 and gorgeous (not that I’m biased).  She thinks I’m an idiot to spend time posting here.  There’s only one of me.

And while you are swaggering around with your macho bragging about your martial artistry, I’m not impressed.  I, too, have a proficiency in those MMA disciplines (black belt), and I know you are struggling with the key discipline—learning how to NOT want to beat the shit out of people, and learning how to respect the weapons you now carry.

POS is short for “piece of s—-”.

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By Gordy, August 4, 2009 at 7:07 am Link to this comment

Doesn’t seem to take much to get demonized on this website… 

Okay, so he said ‘pince-nez’, it’s not equivalent to saying ‘kill all Jews’... 

Chill out guys - are you here to debate and learn together or just fight the phantom menace under the bed and in your head?

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By omop, August 4, 2009 at 6:47 am Link to this comment

Guess Harry S. Truman was as opinionated as any citizen in expressing himself
about the issues confronting America in 1947.

In a letter to Eleanor Roosevelt on August 23, 1947 he wrote:

“I fear very much that the Jews are like all underdogs. When they get on the top they are just as intolerant and cruel as the people were to them when they were underneath.  I regret this situation very much because my sympathy has always been on their side.”

http://www.trumanlibrary.org/eleanor1947.html

Police States!.

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By garth, August 4, 2009 at 6:43 am Link to this comment

I said before that I am not an anti-semite.  I like the Arabs.  BTW—How can you tell if ITW is a he or a she?  Sometimes it seems like a handle shared between husband and wife.
If I can get such a rabid response from the Jews of Truthdig, then I have done my job.
But ITW does have a point.  Why should I care if someone wants to learn to defend himself or herself?  I stand corrected and take back all those remarks.
One question arises, however.  Most people do, in fact, take up the practice of martial arts for self-defense, and in the process learn much deeper lessons of confidence, self-respect, and a sense of humility, in that they are part of a greater whole.
To me it seems problematic to train a few persons in self defense who will be walking the streets inculcated with a sense of victimhood.

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By stcfarms, August 3, 2009 at 10:56 pm Link to this comment

It could be if she is 59 years old and a former seargent in the army. I was there many times between 1965 and 1977 and just loved it.

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By Sepharad, August 3, 2009 at 10:13 pm Link to this comment

stcfarms—Sounds like you may have been dating my niece who lives in Haifa.

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By Sepharad, August 3, 2009 at 10:10 pm Link to this comment

garth, it’s an exceedingly rare moment when Folktruther, Inherit and I are on the same page, but this is one of those times. Can’t see any other explanation for your attitudes except anti-Semitism. Skinny backstabbing Jew in a pince nez?   

BTW, you wrote “They have recently revealed Jews in the western native population. Kind of makes one wonder what Hitler was thinking.”

I don’t understand what YOU are thinking about, let alone Hitler, and may regret asking but I want to know, if nothing else than for my notebook of cryptic cleverly-disguised anti-Semitic statements. 

Do you mean Jews in the Western European native population as in diaspora? (Are you referring to that study of modern Spaniards, in whom some researcher found that 80% carried predominatly North African and Jewish genes?)

Do you mean Jews in the western U.S. native American population? (Many Jews who came to the U.S. in the early to mid 19th century migrated to the Western U.S., and a fair number married into Native American families. Those who migrated to the U.S. in the late 19th and early 20th centuries tended to settle on the Eastern seaboard, though a few ended up in Ohio, Missouri and Illinois.)

Do you mean Jews dispersed east of Israel?

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By stcfarms, August 3, 2009 at 9:06 pm Link to this comment

I dated a Jewish girl whenever my ship was in Israel, I pity the poor bastard that might think he could kick her ass. A billion Muslims do not believe that they could win a war against 20 million Jews, you do the math.

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By Folktruther, August 3, 2009 at 9:02 pm Link to this comment

Inherit is most often wrong, Garth, but when he is right, he is right.  And he is quite right that you are a disgusting anti-semite.

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By Aboo Needle, August 3, 2009 at 5:53 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

What is POS?

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By Inherit The Wind, August 3, 2009 at 5:39 pm Link to this comment

garth, August 3 at 7:53 pm #

“Trainees learn the IDF’s unique martial arts style, known as Krav Maga..”

I’ve studied mixed martial arts for a number of years and from what I’ve seen of Krav Maga, it takes about 3 or more against one for it to be effective.  It’s always the skinny Jew with the pince nez who comes up and stabs you in the back.
Any of the practitioners of the serious martial arts (i.e. Karate, Kung Fu, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai) which were meant to provide strength against larger or more numerous foes would simply dismantle the proponent of Krav Maga.
As for weapons, the US criminals on the street have an especially cowardly manner for dispensing theirt form of justice.

At any rate, the news bulletin cited below spells trouble,  Probably for the unsuspecting person on the street.
The IDF wannabe’s can be seen all over Harvard Sq.

*********************************************

You are a piece of work.  Where do you get your attitude, “Nazis’R'Us”?  “Skinny Jew in Pince-nez who stabs you in the back”.  You sound like German racists in the 20’s and 30’s.

But the worst POS is that you, trained in Karate,Jiu Jitsu, Kung Fu and Muay Thai, are worried about….Jews learning to defend themselves.

What? Are you scared a Jew might beat the crap out of you when you are painting anti-Jewish propaganda in his neighborhood?  Watch out! More and more Jews are learning the martial arts, and not just the religious ones, either.  Why?  Because of guys JUST LIKE you!

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By garth, August 3, 2009 at 4:53 pm Link to this comment

“Trainees learn the IDF’s unique martial arts style, known as Krav Maga..”

I’ve studied mixed martial arts for a number of years and from what I’ve seen of Krav Maga, it takes about 3 or more against one for it to be effective.  It’s always the skinny Jew with the pince nez who comes up and stabs you in the back.
Any of the practitioners of the serious martial arts (i.e. Karate, Kung Fu, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai) which were meant to provide strength against larger or more numerous foes would simply dismantle the proponent of Krav Maga.
As for weapons, the US criminals on the street have an especially cowardly manner for dispensing theirt form of justice.

At any rate, the news bulletin cited below spells trouble,  Probably for the unsuspecting person on the street. 
The IDF wannabe’s can be seen all over Harvard Sq.

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By omop, August 3, 2009 at 4:09 pm Link to this comment

The only(?) way to protect oneself against the Police State for some Americans.!

IDF Vets Train U.S. Jews to Protect Their Communities

by Maayana Miskin
Follow Israel news on and .

(IsraelNN.com) Starting in late July, a group of Israeli combat veterans will be holding a training camp in New York to teach advanced self-defense techniques to Jews in U.S. communities. An increasing number of American Jews have expressed interest in the program following a wave of anti-Semitic incidents worldwide over the past year, organizers report.

The group calls itself Kitat Konenut New York – a reference to the “rapid response teams” active throughout Judea and Samaria. Rapid response teams in Israel, comprised of local civilians who are IDF veterans, have often been the first on the scene of terrorist attacks and other emergencies, and have prevented casualties.

It was founded in 2006 in response to a shooting attack at a Jewish center in Seattle, Washington. One woman was murdered in the attack, and several others were wounded.


Kitat Konenut in action (Israel news photo: Kitat Konenut)

The group is apolitical, and does not take part in demonstrations. “Our agenda is to protect Jews,” says group member Yonatan Stern.

However, the group does have a firmly held political belief. “We believe in the constitutional right to bear arms,” Stern says. Kitat Konenut encourages all American Jews to learn how to use weapons, and to purchase their own firearms for self-defense.
Trainees learn the IDF’s unique martial arts style, known as Krav Maga, and learn to identify suspicious objects and dismantle improvised explosives. They are also trained to use a variety of both non-lethal and lethal weapons, including assault rifles and sniper rifles. Trainers review techniques to deal with situations ranging from knife fights to urban warfare.

Training this year will begin on July 31 and conclude on August 9.

Sign up to receive the Daily Israel Report by email (Free)

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By garth, August 3, 2009 at 3:49 pm Link to this comment

I think they call it the diaspora.  Jews everywhere.

My ex-father-in-law, a Portuguese Colonel, the Jews of Europe, used to shoot spit balls at the Jews when he was a boy.  I have no idea why.

They have recently revealed Jews in the western native population.  Kind of makes one wonder what was Hitler thinking.


As the comedian, Martin Shore asked that unfunny, trite Mel Brooks, “What’s this with the Jews and Hitler?”

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By Sepharad, August 3, 2009 at 3:11 pm Link to this comment

stcfarms, re “whatever you say about the Jews, they are heroes to Indians, Hawaiians, Aborigines…”

You forgot Armenians. There is a large colony of Armenians who have resettled in Jerusalem. And many Kurds.

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By M Henri Day, August 3, 2009 at 2:37 pm Link to this comment

While Mr Vidal may very well be correct about the nature of the police forces in the United States, he seems dangerously naive about similar forces in other countries, not least the UK. Interested readers can consult the relevant Wikipedia article (http://preview.tinyurl.com/2xfbsd), in particular the section entitled «Notable Incidents». Note that these did not occur in a country like the United States, where one seems to risk losing one’s if one doesn’t own at least one assault rifle, but in a land with very strict restrictions on the ownership of firearms….

Henri

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By Folktruther, August 3, 2009 at 2:35 pm Link to this comment

no no, doublstandards, my point was not that private power can be coercive power, but that it is the SAME kind of power. The Western distinction between governement and Private Enterprise helps delude the population by fragamenting their governence conceptually.  Whether government owns the schools, mass media, money or guns, or these are exercised by private enterprise, it is only a difference of mode of organ, not a difference of power.

There power of violence weapons, economic weapons and pwersuasion weapons can be exercised by either.

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By garth, August 3, 2009 at 1:51 pm Link to this comment

“Say what you will about the Jews but you should be aware that they are heros to Indians, Hawaiians, Aboriginies and dozens of other groups that have had their homelands stolen….”
—————
That’s why the Indians, Hawaiians, Aboriginies and dozens of other groups have a no resale clause to Jews agreement in their deeds.  They’re like the camel and its nose under the tent.
I am sure the Indians love them.  After all, the Indians are smarter in math.  But you failed to mention the Armenians.  In business, they say in an old poem that “One Armenian is worth three Jews.
With all the flak about the Palestinians, I am beginning to wonder: Are the Palestinians the real middle eastern Jews?

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By stcfarms, August 3, 2009 at 12:41 pm Link to this comment

Say what you will about the Jews but you should be aware that they are heros to Indians, Hawaiians, Aboriginies and dozens of other groups that have had their homelands stolen.

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By garth, August 3, 2009 at 12:16 pm Link to this comment

Reported, on DemocracyNow!, Aug 3rd, 2009

I comment;

It’s nice to see that the ultra-right zionist israelis are following in their spiritual godfather’s footsteps, the Nazi, by killing two homo-sexual israeli teens.  Just like the nazis used to do—the homosexuals were one of their targets as well.
We’ve got nothing to worry about, “folks” (as they so flamboyantly refer to us.)  The crap-heads are over there killing the Afghans, the Pakistanis, and the Iraqis.  The whatchamacallem’s are watching the airports, and the fucking asshole watching the MSM news are repeating every argument they make on the Internet.
Let’s give it all to the upper management of the health insurance cock-suckers.
Let’s drive a wedge betwen those oh-so-wonderfully dressed-and-weatlthy CEOs and the slovenly, obese crude masses that are clamoring for for something, a crumb, a mere, “How’re you doing?”
I am of the 60s, and I believe the old ploy that if you give the greedy bastards enough, they will die from it.
I say, let them die from fear and greed.

BTW: Christian,  I was taken by your story and I am glad you entered it.  however, it was scary as hell.
God Speed.

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By Doug Palmer, August 3, 2009 at 9:52 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Face it, it was Abe Lincoln who decided that force of violence was the way to “keep the union together”.
Life is a daily battle as it has always been and the US is no different than any other brutal monkey pile.

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By Thomas, August 3, 2009 at 8:30 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The mentality of most cops is no different from the Nazi SS. They are the most unAmerican people in this country.

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By John Hanks, August 3, 2009 at 6:46 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Roll zone.  Why do right-wing people assume that the same old Nazi rhetoric tactics work?  Reagan is dead.  At least I hope so.

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By Gordy, August 3, 2009 at 6:38 am Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt, I like this statement:

“I am no dolt so don’t start throwing invectives because they are automatic duds. However I throw facts and they are potent every time.”

Because it sounds like rapper-talk. 

grin

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By Inherit The Wind, August 3, 2009 at 5:13 am Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt:

Find me in this statement by MarthaA where it says “foreign power” or “attacked first”.  I’ve bolded the relevant sentence.  I stand by my statements.

MarthaA, August 2 at 1:03 pm #

Mozzer75,

And, Miranda Rights are no more because of the Patriot Act.  Miranda Rights need to be put back in place.

There has been only that one attack on the United States mainland in the history of the United States, which doesn’t constitute the necessity of the Patriot Act or the Department of Homeland Security; our country would be better off without either, and give all that extra money saved by getting rid of Homeland Security to help regular police.  I am a thorough believer in having a good police network, just not a storm trooper police network.

QED

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By doublestandards/glasshoues, August 3, 2009 at 2:24 am Link to this comment

Folksy,
I think you have misunderstood.  There was nothing in what I wrote that suggests that private power as you put it is any less coercive than the illegitimate use of power by governments.

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By Night-Gaunt, August 2, 2009 at 10:04 pm Link to this comment

”...just ignorant and idiotic…”InheritTheWind

Nice way to start it. Especially when you ignore the premise that one gov’t attacked another on the mainland. Most of your examples weren’t. The USA invaded British territory and burned down a gov’t building and then the British retaliated with an attack on their own to do some burning. So, wrong!

The attack at sea wasn’t on land of the USA. So wrong again. You could have read the premise. The attack on Fort Sumpter wasn’t by a foreign power but be rebels, so wrong again! So far you are batting a -1,000. Nice going. I am no dolt so don’t start throwing invectives because they are automatic duds. However I throw facts and they are potent every time.

Your examples are correct as far as they go but the idea was attacks on the USA mainland by a foreign power. Al-Quiada is a group not a gov’t.

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By Night-Gaunt, August 2, 2009 at 9:49 pm Link to this comment

”...just ignorant and idiotic…”InheritTheWind

Nice way to start it. Especially when you ignore the premise that one gov’t attacked another on the mainland. Most of your examples weren’t. The USA invaded British territory and burned down a gov’t building and then the British retaliated with an attack on their own to do some burning. So, wrong!

The attack at sea wasn’t on land of the USA. So wrong again. You could have read the premise. The attack on Fort Sumpter wasn’t by a foreign power but by local rebels, so wrong again! Same with the Murrow building. So far you are batting a -1,000. Nice going. I am no dolt so don’t start throwing invectives because they are automatic duds. However I throw facts and they are potent every time.

Your examples are correct as far as they go but the idea was attacks on the USA mainland by a foreign power. Al-Quiada is a group not a gov’t.

And Rollzone with all of the verbiage of your complaint you failed to bother to include anything that was connected with the topic either so keep pointing that finger at yourself.

Just recently a woman was almost set up by four cops to take a fall for them hitting her! If it hadn’t been for the car cam she would have been blamed for the collision the police caused. Now isn’t that corrupt? It is on topic.

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By Inherit The Wind, August 2, 2009 at 7:42 pm Link to this comment

So…someone cites Francisco Villa’s attack and…“Oh but that wasn’t by a government!”  So? It was still an attack.

Britain attacked Washington, DC and burned it….and “Oh, but that was only because we started a war with them!”  So?  It was still an attack.
France (under the revolutionaries) started an undeclared naval war with us in 1799—but it wasn’t on the mainland, it was at sea.  So?  It was still an attack.

The CSA attacked Fort Sumter and started the Civil War. So?  It was still an attack.

Later, the CSA attacked in Maryland and Pennsylvania, all on the mainland. So? It was still an attack.

Then Sherman marched through Georgia as an occupying army. It was idiotic of Patton, as a Southerner, to claim that the US had never been occupied—the treasonous states of the South were occupied by the armies of the Union. So? It was still an attack AND an occupation.

Mexico attacked Texas before it was part of the US.  So? It was still an attack.

The Murrow Building in Oklahoma City was attacked and over 160 people were killed.  The killers were terrorists and American.  So? It was still an attack.

The WTC was bombed for the first time in 1993.  It failed to destroy the towers.  So? It was still an attack.

An ignorant and idiotic statement that the US has only been attacked on the mainland once is just that—ignorant and idiotic.

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By rollzone, August 2, 2009 at 6:28 pm Link to this comment

hello. holy crap of brain farting! personal dialogues of irresponsible commenter types are distracting reason alike drugs on parade. there were a couple of good points made buried deeply within the confines of this zone, but my comment has morphed through attrition. this tactic of intelligentsia debating imagined diatribes of whatever comes to mind irrespective of content was a method used by the Nazis to distract away from the truth. you panderers to self aggrandizement with regular fartations of your minds must be in training for work with the democrats- or already employed.

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By elisalouisa, August 2, 2009 at 4:38 pm Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt: Ah, but Pancho Villa was colorful as were many of characters along the Rio Grande at that time. Considering how lawless Texas then was one can only wonder how it evolved into the police state that it is today.
Truthfolker: The governmental-Private Enterprise partnership does allow the government more latitude as to what it can do. How can this dangerous trend be stopped?  You might want to search for -  TPM ” Where is the Line Between U.S. Forces and Contractors?”
elisa

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By t garrison, August 2, 2009 at 3:30 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“Ignorance By Choice” by Alex Steere

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_ys?url=search-alias=aps&field;-keywords=ignorance+by+choice

Charles, a passionate family man, is prepared to protect his children and country from the lies and manipulations of the dangerous right winged extremists, those who promote the propaganda, and those who elect and follow these politicians blindly, never questioning beyond the media outlets established to further their cause.  He begins a huntsmen’s murderous journey to cull his envisioned herd of right wing extremism, with calculating precision and extreme prejudice during a tumultuous time in the country he loves so dearly. His message cannot be mistaken. Seasoned FBI Agent, Cooper Maze, is tasked with bringing a calculating serial killer of means to justice.  Agent Maze is assigned to profile, investigate, and apprehend the suspect in order to stop the ever increasing gruesome trail. A race begins to identify the motive and choices for executions that leave no evidence except for contentious emails and famous quotes sent from the victims’ computers. No one on the Right is safe.

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By Folktruther, August 2, 2009 at 3:25 pm Link to this comment

Double-  It is common for liberals and semi-Progressives like Chomsky to distuingish govenment power, and the threat of violence, from private power and the threat of other forms of coercion.  this is part of the distinction between Government vs Private Enterprise that endorses neoliberal capitalism as Freedom and Government ownership as Tyranny.  Inherit’s Ayn Rand distinction.

Private coercion differs in no way from public coercion, both are identical forms of power. A corporation or bank can threaten you with the loss of your home for failure to make exorbident payments, using government to evict you.  The same distinction used when the Church sentenced Heretics to be burned alive, but the Government did the actual burning.

Indeed, the CIA and the military now use Private Enterprise Contractors for the same purpose as Government death squads and other uses.  In the US the government is the agent of the owners of the means of production, functioning under the guise of promoting the welfare of the general population.  The governmental-Private Enterprise distinction is used precisely to prevent the population from seeing the power connection.

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By christian96, August 2, 2009 at 3:23 pm Link to this comment

Inherit the Wind——You are 100% correct.  If it
hadn’t been for the nurses I am not sure I would have
made it.  I loved them all and only had problems with
one on one day.  Since I was hospitalized close to
Miami most of the nurses were from Jamaica, Cuba,
Costa Rica, etc.  They were excellent workers.  When
they discovered I was a counselor some of them would
spend long periods of time telling me about their
families and personal lives.  I was glad to help in
any way I could.  We had one laugh I’ll never forget.
Because of the diarrhea they had to change my diaper
several times a day.  One morning after cleaning my
buttocks, a girl from Costa Rica not only sprayed
my buttocks but also my testicles.  I caught on fire
and began yelling “My balls are on fire!  My balls
are burning up!”  She ran to the sink put some cold
water on a wash cloth and placed it on my testicles.
We all had a good laugh.  She said she was going to
place a sign on the board “Don’t spray this patients
balls!”  It is really a shame nurses make so little
compensation compared to the nature and amount of
work they are asked to do while the educated
manipulative doctors make so much money.  This wasn’t
my first experience with a doctor trying to pull the
wool over my eyes.  When this latest doctor made the
comment, “The blood work shows there is nothing wrong
with your heart,” she could have gotten by with the
comment with most patients not knowledgeable of the
subject.  Today I have been looking at two ankles so
swollen I can barely get my shoes on.  I am sick of
doctors and hospitals at this point.  I should be
getting a visit from a home health nurse soon.  I’ll
seek her suggestion what course to follow.  In
conclusion, since this article was written by Gore
Vidal I’ll just make a statement without a value
statement.  A couple of months ago I wrote to Mr. Vidal seeking his assistance.  I sent the letter
through his publisher.  I never heard a word from
either.  I’ll leave it at that!

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By doublestandards/glasshoues, August 2, 2009 at 1:00 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther,
Obviously Chomsky was not referring to authorities in the sense that you have taken it.  He himself is an authority in the field of linguistics.  He was talking about power and the way it is used by those who have it against those who don’t.  Any power structure in which some people compel others by force or threat of force, to do what they do not want to do is not legitimate.  I think that is what he means.

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By Night-Gaunt, August 2, 2009 at 12:57 pm Link to this comment

Pancho Villa wasn’t doing it for Mexico was he? They were harassment raids for criminal purposes and not considered an invasion. Now Persing‘s was a USA military invasion of Mexio to go after him. One of many that had happened over the years. Next?

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By stcfarms, August 2, 2009 at 12:31 pm Link to this comment

Pancho Villa attacked Arizona in 1912.

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By inspiredamnit, August 2, 2009 at 11:50 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

A big thanks to Gore Vidal for his direct clarity in this world.

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By Night-Gaunt, August 2, 2009 at 11:33 am Link to this comment

The war of 1812-1814 was started by the USA not England with the invasion and burning of a courthouse in British Canada. Hawai’i wasn’t a state yet and therefor not the mainland of the USA in 1941. There were some shelling by one or more Japanese subs of Californian oil supplies but those reports weren’t widely deseminated at the time. You may want to count the occupation of Sitka and Atu islands on the Aluetian chain by a few Japanese but Alaska was still a territory not a state in 1942. Any others?

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By Inherit The Wind, August 2, 2009 at 10:53 am Link to this comment

MarthaA, August 2 at 1:03 pm #

There has been only that one attack on the United States mainland in the history of the United States, which doesn’t constitute the necessity of the Patriot Act or the Department of Homeland Security; our country would be better off without either,
*************************************************

While I agree with the conclusion that the P/A and the DHS are totally unnecessary, how do you figure there’s only been one attack on the mainland of the US? I can think of several, easily.

US history didn’t start in the 20th century, you know.

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By MarthaA, August 2, 2009 at 10:03 am Link to this comment

Mozzer75,

And, Miranda Rights are no more because of the Patriot Act.  Miranda Rights need to be put back in place.

There has been only that one attack on the United States mainland in the history of the United States, which doesn’t constitute the necessity of the Patriot Act or the Department of Homeland Security; our country would be better off without either, and give all that extra money saved by getting rid of Homeland Security to help regular police.  I am a thorough believer in having a good police network, just not a storm trooper police network.

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By bogi666, August 2, 2009 at 9:30 am Link to this comment

I’m a white guy and have been harassed by the police if for no other reason I was by myself. To get along with police is just a good idea no matter whom you are. By all means do not mouth off to a Jamaican Policeman, especially in the country areas. Mexican cops are easily handled, just don’t speak Spanish and give them 50 or 100 pesos. In Mexico, bribes must be settled at the immediate level. Bringing in the immediate officers superiors and you’re looking at a Mexican jail, a lawyer and a judge to bribe through the lawyer.

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By John Hanks, August 2, 2009 at 9:11 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

In many ways a police state is actually weak.  Gore Vidal was stuck with post-war crowding - a state of weakness.

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By stcfarms, August 2, 2009 at 9:11 am Link to this comment

There is considerable difference between private sector specialists and civil ‘authorities’, no one forces you to use the private sector. Governments use force to ensure compliance to ancient documents that you may not have read and almost certainly did not sign. Governments treat their subjects like property, odd, since they ostensibly work for us. When you consider that the average IQ is a paltry 100 points, a democracy becomes the most frightening form of government possible. You can take back your power through armed insurrection or you can just leave. Being Indian I choose to leave rather than help one group of whites steal stolen Indian land from another group of whites. Freedom exists only on the frontier and the only frontier left on earth is the deep ocean.

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By Folktruther, August 2, 2009 at 8:06 am Link to this comment

That’s an interesting thought, Doublestandards, that there is no legitimate authority, but it is untenable.  There is no alternative in certain situation but to trust specialists in a field, such as the diagnosis and treatment of cancer.  They can be questioned and probed, alternative authorities cited, but there is an element of Faith that in the final analysis is unavoidable.

When a mechanic tells you that it is the carberator’s uplift valves that are dusty, and it is going to cost you really a lot of money to have them cleaned, we usually take his word for it.  The alternative is go to a sourcerer to have the demons cleansed from the engine, an even more expensive procedure.  Although both approaches often have the same degree of effacy.

And while it is true that class-societies tend to be ruled by police states, they have also evolved bourgeois Democracies which increase the Freedom of the affluent.  When they age and their political and economic institutions become increasing obsolete, they then become police states, leaving the orginaal Dem institituions in place shorn of people power. 

the US power structure is currently deempowering the population in every way conceivable to maintain the gross and increasing economic inequality.  This is a change of political form from our previous bougeois Democracy, but people are afraid to acknowledge it.

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By doublestandards/glasshoues, August 2, 2009 at 7:21 am Link to this comment

John Hanks @ July31 9:25PM
“All states are police states.”
I was reminded of something Noam Chomsky once said: “Other than the authority of parents over small children, there are no legitimate forms of authority.”
The police exist to protect and maintain the power structure.  They have become more militaristic as money and power have become restricted to fewer and fewer people.  The more poor and powerless people there are, the more police are needed.

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By Inherit The Wind, August 2, 2009 at 6:00 am Link to this comment

Christian96:

I’ll bet that horrible experience tested your faith!

Back in the 70’s I had a similar experience with a staph infection in an Binghamton hospital.

Good nursing is the front-line of good hospital care.  And you can’t get good nursing as long as doctors make 20 to 100 times what nurses make.

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By Mozzer75, August 2, 2009 at 1:37 am Link to this comment

Recently it was just in the news that Cheney wanted to send the military into some small town in upstate NY back in 2001 on the heels of 9/11 to root out “terrorists”, and, supposedly, it was Dubya who nixed the proposal, though legal counsel (John Yoo) advised to go right ahead. Vidal is not the type to concern himself with street-treading issues as the Gates flip-flap; he has used it to point out the overweening powers currently resident not only in law enforcement, but in the Executive, and the unbalanced justice system in general. He will resent Obama, and so will I, if he doesn’t repudiate the too egregious existence of the Executive Order, and its equally snappy cousin, the Executive Signing Order. If this President continues to use such extra-Constitutional expediences, he will be no better than the last of his Office. He will be a next-in-line, and will counterbalance his historic presence in the House of the People.

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By Mozzer75, August 2, 2009 at 1:13 am Link to this comment

As usual, Vidal’s prescience is unmatchable. This article arrives on the heels of the widespread media report that Cheney in 2001 championed sending the military into the streets of a town in NY to “subdue and capture terrorists”. Which one of us at the time would have peeped about tanks in our town if there was some terrorist hiding beneath the railroad tracks? Indirectly, and with great rhetorical flourish, Vidal is again reminding us of what the REAL issues are - power is power, and those who wield it think they have far too much, whether it be the police, or Congress, or the High Courts, or the President! Vidal harks back to a different day, but it was a day when people truly cared about their country, instead of just complaining about it (and that goes for every race, ethnic persuasion, religion, gender, and sexual orientations!). You have no right to speak or act unless first you KNOW - that goes for these hypocritical C Street adulterers, that goes for the cops, that goes for preachers, that goes for you and me.

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By christian96, August 1, 2009 at 11:18 pm Link to this comment

“America the Great Bunch of Deceivers” is probably
how I would have labled this article.  I know I’ve
sorely been missed on this site but I just returned
home this afternoon after an 8 day stay in another
one of our institutions of deceptions, the hospital.
A week ago Friday, I began having chest pains, fatigue, and swollen ankles.  I drove myself to the
emergency room.  After several hours of repositioning
myself on a very uncomfortable bed, I was transported
to my very own room.  About an hour later I became
violently sick.  My stomach distended and cramping
miserably, I ask the nurse to “Please get me a doctor” to which she replied “the doctor is making
rounds.  He will see you after rounds.”  I yelled,
“I am very ill.  I have to see him now!”  After she
left the room, I began uncontrolably voimiting on
the floor.  Through a weak whimper I mumbled, “I’m
sick.  I need to see a doctor.”  When she returned
I had crapped my pants, chilling uncontrolably,
running a fever of 103 with a sore throat and headache.  She finally got the doctor.  They inserted
two IV’s and began a regime of antibiotics.  Later,
I tried to call a college pal who was a retired lawyer from the patent office.  I tried to explain
to him what had just happened but was too weak to do
so.  The next day after beginning to feel slightly
better I called him again.  He said, “Yesterday, you
sounded like you were about dead!”  To which I replied, “That’s the worst I have ever felt in my life.  I thought I was going to be neglected until
I died.”  Several minutes later I had to hang up the
phone as my assigned physician, a middle aged woman,
followed by her flock of interns, walked into my
room.  Her first words were, “Oh, I remember you!”
I remember you!  What did that remark refer to?  After discussing my situation a few minutes I ask to
be seen by a cardiologist to which she responded,
“There’s nothing wrong with your heart!”  When I
inquired for the reasoning behind her brilliant
conclusion, she said,  “Your blood work shows there
is nothing wrong with your heart!”  I blurted very
unchristianlike “BULLSHIT!”  Her flock of interns
seemed taken back by my rude comment.  A male to the
left of my bed said something.  When I ask what he
said he remained silent.  Raising my voice I repeated
my question, “What did you say?”  He murmured “nothing.”  I proceeded to explain to the
educated deceptive doctor that blood work tells you
whether or not I have had a heart attack.  Nothing
more.  Nothing less.  She avoided the subject and
left the room.  After a series of tests it was
determined I had the Swine Flu.  I continued to wear
a diaper full of diarrhea.  Wonderful experience!
After 3 days in the hospital the doctor decided it
was time for me to go home.  When I reminded her
that I was not feeling well and lived by myself,
she said, “Oh, we will have home health care check
your vital signs periodically.”  The next day while
still in the hospital the chills, fever of 103 and
extreme fatigue returned.  She decided to keep me.
I had heard on TV news about people dying of the
Swine Flu.  I decided to publicize my experiences.
I called the local TV station and spoke with a
reporter.  She said she would get back to me.  Well,
guess what?  She didn’t!  This morning as I was
packing to come home the respiratory therapist stuck
his head in my room and said,  “I’m glad to see you
are doing fine.  Last week after leaving your room
I didn’t think you were going to make it.”  I thanked
him for his concern and told him there were a few times I didn’t think I was going to make it.  While
driving home I thought, “Perhaps, I should contact
President Obama.  Maybe he, the ignorant deceptive
doctor and myself could sit in the Rose Garden and
discuss the perils of an incompetent deceptive
medical profession.  The discussion would not be
over beer of course.  It would be over water, a much
better example to the children.

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By elisalouisa, August 1, 2009 at 11:07 pm Link to this comment

foosh? Folktruther, you are incorrigible.

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By Sepharad, August 1, 2009 at 11:06 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther, I didn’t initially “see” anything till I thought it through, and as more info became available I adjusted my opinion accordingly. Is there another way to form a reasonable opinion other than considering facts? You seem to have discovered a fact-free shortcut, as your continual criticisms/opinions of me and Inherit continue to be
way off the mark.

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By Folktruther, August 1, 2009 at 9:03 pm Link to this comment

foosh.

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By John Hanks, August 1, 2009 at 8:22 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

What scares me about Israel is that it wants us to take on Iran in its place.  It is a paranoid megalomanic state (like Nazi Germany) and that makes it very dangerous.

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By Inherit The Wind, August 1, 2009 at 7:36 pm Link to this comment

FT,

Why are you such an idiot?  Of COURSE I know that the Jim Crow laws clearly violated the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments, and that Congress didn’t created enabling legislation during Reconstruction, and that the USSC ruled pretty much that States’ Rights trumped everything.

But NONE of that is in the Constitution itself—it’s from a court that chose to ALLOW clear-cut violations.

No law is meaningful if it cannot be enforced.

Plus your continual idiotic assertions that I don’t see racism NECESSARILY in Crowley because of my
“support of a racist regime in Israel” is more of your standard fantasy bullshit lies about me.

I don’t ASSUME I can read Sergeant Crowley’s mind the way you can—I don’t pretend I have those sorts of supernatural telepathic powers the way you do.

Frankly, FT, it’s your idiotic arrogance that makes you so f’in certain you KNOW what Crowley was thinking when, the fact is, neither you nor anybody else KNOWS what he was thinking.

Occam’s Razor tells us that the simplest solution that fits the facts is the solution. 

And the fact remains that Prof. Gates was grumpy, tired and pissed off from having to break into his own house when returning home from a trip to Asia. 

I’ll bet he got very sarcastic with Crowley, and Crowley being a cop, got pissed off by that.  No cop doing his job likes to be bitched out just for doing it—and Gates clearly did that.

I see NO evidence that Crowley would have acted any differently if he had been treated that way by a White man in the same situation.

Occam’s Razor tells us Crowley was pissed of at being mouthed off to and acted.

Was it justified? Clearly not.  But was it racist? Neither you nor I actually have any fukin’ clue about that.

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By Night-Gaunt, August 1, 2009 at 1:16 pm Link to this comment

Police engage in torture all of the time. Standard procedure—many different types. One such veteran had been tasked to work in a place called Abu Gareb which never lost is luster as a torture prison because of him. That is all relevant to it if you can only see with a wider vision. There may be hope for you yet.

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By Blueboy1938, August 1, 2009 at 1:02 pm Link to this comment

Mark A. Adams JD/MBA, August 1 at 2:15 pm #
“I thought that the comments were supposed to be relevant to the article.”

Well, Mark, that is a very good point you make, but it is the nature of Huffington posters to digress.

A propos your point about relevance:  How does a discussion of torture allegedly conducted by the government of the United States of America relate to Mr. Vidal’s article, which nowhere refers to that topic and consists of a diatribe about local police?

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By stcfarms, August 1, 2009 at 12:05 pm Link to this comment

One must bear in mind that what cops do, they do in your name on your dollar. If cops commit murder it makes all taxpayers guilty of murder for hire. If the state executes an innocent person then all taxpayers are guilty of murder. If you are so damn weak that you need protection from your fellow humans then I suppose that you can justify (at least in your own mind) paying for a police state. Your own government has made you a murderer by proxy. The truth is never pretty.

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By Gordy, August 1, 2009 at 11:49 am Link to this comment

Mark, thank you for posting that story - for years and years I have been ardently making this point that the state is a hypocrite to send people off to jail with this assumption of proportional justice when in fact there is a strong random element to the degree of punishment the felon will suffer. 

Have you ever seen the movie Scum? 

There are all sorts of compelling criticism of the concept and reality of prison, but the very least the state could do is ensure that prison conditions are what they are supposed to be and that law enforcement officers do what they are supposed to do. 

For my own part, I feel that the philosophy of retributive justice is sadism with a suit on and a self-righteous attitude.  What is brushed under the rug is the basic cause-effect nature of reality: understanding is useful, blame is not and it never approaches a final resolution or satisfaction.  When you have assaulted someone for being ‘bad’ or a ‘lawbreaker’ that antagonism is guaranteed to bounce back, because the reasons for the original offence were never dealt with. 

I find however that the idea of state vengeance as true justice is deeply ingrained in most people, even though there is no convincing way of defending its ethics in a purely philosophical conversation.  And most people do not really support it out of pragmatism: they just hate ‘criminals’, anyone they consider an enemy, and want to hurt them. 

Arnold Schwarzenegger mowing down faceless cookie-cutter goons with a machine-gun personifies the typical concept of what justice is.

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By elisalouisa, August 1, 2009 at 11:27 am Link to this comment

Folktruther,
You must remember that Crosley went to Gates’ home because of a report that there were two men forcing open the door at that address. Crosley did enter the premises knowing that a possible burglary could be taking place. Who was Crosley dealing with; burglar(s), professor or ???. Gates might have asked himself what this officer was doing in his house. Whatever transpired, Crosley did exit the residence minus Gates. Gates persued and said,  “He would talk to his Mama.” The officer with Gates, (a black) commented that Gates was acting strangely.  Did that warrant arrest? I do not know. I am not well versed in the real legal aspects of the events that took place nor am I absolutely certain of what did take place in that house. I do know that it did not harm the TV ratings of CNN, Soledad O’Brien and all the other TV anchors who were ready to lynch Crosley because that was the popular thing to do . Vidal, through his column got even with all the law enforcement mistreatment he and his friends were subjected to through the years.
No one is completely right on this one.  Both Crosley and Gates deserve the benefit of the doubt.
elisa . . . who thanks you for your concern.

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By Mark A. Adams JD/MBA, August 1, 2009 at 11:15 am Link to this comment

I thought that the comments were supposed to be relevant to the article.  I realize that some are, but you have to go through a lot that aren’t to get to those that are relevant.  Of course, that is a distraction for those who want to learn more about the article and discuss the issues raised in it.

Once again, Gore Vidal is absolutely right about our country being turned into a police state. If you don’t believe me, just take a look at the truth about the horrible crimes that are committed every day by agents of the U.S. government and why they get away with committing horrible crimes.  See Why does the U.S. government torture people? at http://dailycensored.com/2009/06/24/why-does-the-u-s-government-torture-people/  You’ll learn that the “news” media has kept you in the dark about a serious danger to your family and that according to a couple of U.S. Supreme Court Justices, we are no more than slaves.

Naturally, I’ll expect several comments to follow which are not relevant to this article, do not discuss the supporting documentation in my article, and serve to further bury and obscure those comments that are relevant.  Maybe the editor will clear some of the irrelevant comments to minimize the distraction.

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By Folktruther, August 1, 2009 at 8:59 am Link to this comment

elisa, I worry about you.  Out of ‘a vast destruction and little hope’ comes a vast destruction and little hope.  We are living in a age of theromnucelar weapons under a very violent power structure which is influenced by an even more violent one, Israel.  It is our task to prevent mass desructions and provide realistic historical hope.  Not hype.

But we are not talking about destruction here or socilaism, merely the right of a person, including a black-skinned person, to be safe in his home.  The US Constitution says ’ the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers and effects, SHALL NOT BE VIOLATED…

Straight American Constituional liberalism, which Ardee has stated again and again.  And there is something in there about freedom of speech too.  Which is meaningless unless it includes dissent to arbitrary power.  But you side with the police arresting a man for creating a disturbance in his own home for demanding what the law allows, and the Constitution demands, the information of creditionals to lodge a complaint against arbitrary power.

It is understandable that Sepharad and Inherit did not initially see racism in this incident, since they support a racist Israel.  But what worries me, Elisa, is that you did it instinctively also.  Do you support a racist America?

Gordy, in answer to your last question, whether two war combatants make peace by shouting and abuse, the answer is yes.  Obviously so, if one looks at what happens rather than be indoctrinated by Education.  Shouting begins to substitute for shooting, and then begin intermanable discussions until they begin to fall asleep.  At that point they are ready to teach in schools, universities and other learned bureacracies.

Education is an intellectual soporific, Gordy, to keep people lethargic enough to avoid thinking about uncomfortable questions.  Thus Education doth make cowards of us all.

Inherit-  Consistent with your identification with the American midbrow truth tradition, you failed to point out that after the consitution was change to grant civil rights to African-Americans, they were enslaved, exploited humiliated and lynched for over another century, and deprived of their civil rights.

These amendments were used to teach schoolchildren how Democratic the US was and to give Patroitic truthers- I mention no names- a weapon of legalistic bullshit to legitimate institutionalized racism.  As in the Gates incident, which you claim may WELL contain no racism.

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By ardee, August 1, 2009 at 8:59 am Link to this comment

I was moved, both by a poster’s inquiry into the reasons ITW chose his sobriquet and my absolute passion for both the show ( which, as a small boy, I was privileged to have seen on Broadway) and the movie version, to post a bit of the dialogue….


# Matthew Harrison Brady: Remember the wisdom of Solomon in the book of Proverbs. “He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind.” »

# Henry Drummond: For I intend to show this court that what Bertram Cates spoke quietly one spring morning in the Hillsboro High School is not crime. It is incontrovertible as geometry to any enlightened community of minds.
Prosecutor Tom Davenport: In this community, Colonel Drummond, and in this sovereign state, exactly the opposite is the case. The language of the law is clear, your Honor. We do not need experts to question the validity of a law that is already on the books.
Henry Drummond: Well, what do you need? A gallows to hang him from?
Prosecutor Tom Davenport: That remark is an insult to this entire community.
Henry Drummond: And this community is an insult to the world. »

# Matthew Harrison Brady: We must not abandon faith! Faith is the most important thing!
Henry Drummond: Then why did God plague us with the capacity to think? Mr. Brady, why do you deny the one thing that sets above the other animals? What other merit have we? The elephant is larger, the horse stronger and swifter, the butterfly more beautiful, the mosquito more prolific, even the sponge is more durable. Or does a sponge think?
Matthew Harrison Brady: I don’t know. I’m a man, not a sponge!
Henry Drummond: Do you think a sponge thinks?
Matthew Harrison Brady: If the Lord wishes a sponge to think, it thinks!
Henry Drummond: Does a man have the same privilege as a sponge?
Matthew Harrison Brady: Of course!
Henry Drummond: Then this man wishes to have the same privilege of a sponge, he wishes to think! »

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By John Hanks, August 1, 2009 at 8:46 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

It is the propaganda and word of mouth that keep the Fascist element of a police state alive.  The Nazi violence part comes when the state is getting into trouble.  Hitler attacked Poland when the German financial bubble was bursting.

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By bogi666, August 1, 2009 at 6:02 am Link to this comment

Gordy, thanks for the links, excellent

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By bogi666, August 1, 2009 at 5:56 am Link to this comment

Inherit the wind, you’re right of course. I do have a question about your user name? Doesn’t it have to do with the Scopes trial in 1925 Tennessee for which H.L. Mencken wrote the following: “Conspiracies of the Inferior”  “The so-called religious organizations which now lead the war against the teaching of evolution are nothing more, at bottom, than conspiracies of the inferior man against his betters. They mirror very accurately his congenital hatred of knowledge, his bitter enmity to the man who knows more than he does….” As for the brilliance of the 14th and 25 the amendments, the14th is used to determine that a corporation has the same rights[but not the responsibility] of a person in the 1887 Santa Clara County vs. Southern Pacific railroad and the 15th amendment while prohibiting personal slavery allow the government to have slaves. My point being that these documents are of men, subject to infallibility. AS for the Supreme Court ever overturning the Corporation is a person that will never happen. The corporations would bribe the Justices so much that it would be beyond human capability to refuse such a bribe. Also, Mencken was an atheist who also stated that “after my death should I realize God, I will promptly walk over to God and apologize for being wrong”, at which time he would have to be forgiven and granted heavenly pursuits.

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By Inherit The Wind, August 1, 2009 at 5:20 am Link to this comment

bogi666, August 1 at 7:30 am #

stcfarm, I agree with what you say, however the Declaration of Independence does not specify our rights in the legal context. The legal rights are stated in the Constitution, the very same document that declared that a black person was 60% of a citizen. This document is obviously flawed.
**********************************************

That’s why it was changed!  The 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments negated that clause.

The original document was a serious of compromises, some brilliant, some flawed.  This was one of the many flaws.  Remember: The Bill of Rights is NOT part of the original Constitution and was proposed, debated and added on as the very FIRST criticism of failures and flaws in the original document. 

For example, the only right I’m aware of in the main body is the right of Habeas Corpus.  All the other rights like freedom of speech, press, religion, privacy, etc are ALL in that first repair to the Constitution—the Bill of Rights.

But the beauty of the document is that it allows, with great difficulty that requires mass support, change.

There are still flaws—the electoral college and a Senate that had a dominant GOP majority but, if you added up all the votes they actually got, represented no more than 40% of the voters, where the minority Dems represented 60%...

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By bogi666, August 1, 2009 at 4:30 am Link to this comment

stcfarm, I agree with what you say, however the Declaration of Independence does not specify our rights in the legal context. The legal rights are stated in the Constitution, the very same document that declared that a black person was 60% of a citizen. This document is obviously flawed.

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By zhong, July 31, 2009 at 10:59 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Sure that America has been a fascist nation for a long time.  The puritanical streak of her forefathers and simple mindedness made that bunch of people so prone to any propaganda by the government nobody should be surprised that it has become a fascist country.  The trouble for those of us who lived far away from her is that the thugs that run the country always interfere in other people’s business as well, for no good reasons at all other than money.

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