Top Leaderboard, Site wide
September 17, 2014
Truthdig: Drilling Beneath the Headlines
Help us grow by sharing
and liking Truthdig:
Sign up for Truthdig's Email NewsletterLike Truthdig on FacebookFollow Truthdig on TwitterSubscribe to Truthdig's RSS Feed

Newsletter

sign up to get updates


For the Love of Scotland




On the Run


Truthdig Bazaar more items

 
Report

Truthdig Podcast: ‘Jesus Rode a Donkey’ Author

Email this item Email    Print this item Print    Share this item... Share

Posted on Apr 10, 2007
book cover
jesusrodeadonkey-thebook.com

(Page 3)

Scheer: Quoting the Bible ... couldn’t that be just a good memory?

Seger: Oh yeah, yeah.  There’s a lot of people with good memories.  I think it also has to do with—there’s a lot in the Bible.  You could prioritize your values in any number of ways, so one looks at voting records, one looks at what they do, and then you say, “Well, what kind of person is this and do their values and their priorities line up with my values?” as much as possible.  We can go through all the candidates and say, well, I might line up on some things and not on others, and look at that. Yes.  There’s definitely action because this is politics.  Politics is action moving into society that comes through government.

Harris: Linda, I’m doing a lot of listening.  I know Jesus.  I have a relationship.  As you do.  As every Christian claims to have with Jesus.  And the problem I think I’m having with the argument that Jesus is in line with the ideologies and the thinking of the Democratic Party—.

Seger: Wait, wait, wait.  That’s not true.  I think Jesus would’ve been an independent. ...

Advertisement

Square, Site wide
Harris: Maybe you’re going to answer my questions.  So why do you believe that he’s an independent?

Seger: Here’s what happened with this book.  Originally, my publishers wanted the book to be called “Jesus Is a Democrat,” and I said, “I can’t do that book because I think Jesus is an independent.”  I don’t think to put him with either party is really the point here.  But I said, I think that what we’re talking about is, “Let’s look at the Democratic Party from a Christian perspective because the Republican Party has been looked at from that perspective quite a bit.  So I’m not saying that the Democratic Party is the only party with Christian values.  I don’t think that’s true at all.  What I am saying is that there are many policies that I think are much stronger with the Democratic Party that are more in line with biblical policies.  Now, I’m not saying 100 percent.  But I think that if you decide that the Bible—if one looks at the Bible carefully and says, “I see a strong care for creation and I see that we are asked to be responsible stewards, so that leads me to a certain ecological position.”  And then I look at both parties and I say, what party I think is a better steward of the Earth in terms of their policy.  I don’t think there’s any question which party is a better steward of the Earth.  I think the Democrats clearly have much better policies that care for the Earth more.  And so if I’m going to put that as one of my high values and say, “Which party will I vote for?”  I’m going to go with the Democrats on that one.

Harris: So what I’m saying is that I think Jesus has a problem with politics in general.

Seger: Yes.

Harris: I think if you look at the history of our country, you look at the state of affairs in the black community today, you look at the genocide that’s going on in the inner cities, if you look at the state of affairs in the Jewish community, in Latino-Chicano communities, there’s a lot of unrest, and I think Jesus—

Seger: Oh yeah.

Harris:—if he were and is the great person and the caring person that we know him to be through the Bible, I think he would have serious problems with Hillary Clinton and John McCain because for them it is about positioning.  For Jesus it was not about positioning; it was about doing the right thing, and I think that’s gotten lost.  And so that’s why I have a problem with your effort to relate him to any party.  I think he would be offended by that.

Seger: Yes.  I’m not trying to relate him to a party.  I’m trying to relate him to party policies.  In other words, if you say, OK, I think, when I read the Bible and I see Jesus’ concern for the poor and the oppressed and the disenfranchised and then I look at our society and I say, gosh, there’s a whole lot of people who are poor and oppressed and disenfranchised, and many of them are from various races, black and, as you say, Latino, etc., some even white, and if I look at that as I say, OK, if I think that’s an important value, what policies do I see in the various parties that I think best address that value?  I get the values from my understanding of Jesus, my relationship with him and my understanding of the Bible.  Then I look out at politics and I say, who do I think best expresses the values and what policies?  So we’re not just talking about candidates; we’re talking about policies as well.  I think that raising the minimum wage is a good thing.  And I think it helps the people who are poor, who are working hard and cannot make a living even with two jobs.  So when I say, what policy best expresses that?  I might say, I think the Democrats are doing a better job with certain policies that care for the poor and oppressed.  So it isn’t like saying, well, Jesus is on the Democratic side and not on the Republican side.  Where we see policies trying to come into our society to fruition that seem in line with what Jesus cared about, when I start to vote, I’m going to look at the policies and I’m going to look at the candidates.  And some of these candidates, you say, gosh, I like them on this policy and I don’t like them on that policy.  And just what you mentioned also about saying, who do I think is honest or not?  Because that’s another thing, what people say—. Oh, it sounds so nice.  He talks about Christianity, and then you look at the policies and say, hmmm, tsk, I don’t know, I don’t find them lining up.  So all of us go through all these candidates and say, well, I don’t know.  Who do I think is best in line with the kind of person I think is going to help create a society that is the most in line with the values that I find and help actualize those values.

Harris: I’m glad you had the chance to straighten that out.  I get what you’re saying, and I hope our listeners are able to at least gain some sense of understanding of what you’ve just said.  So it’s not necessarily about Jesus being a Democrat but that the Democrats seemingly are in line with what Jesus might have intended.

Seger: Right.  Clearly with certain policies, with Jesus.  There might be others where people say, well, I don’t know about this policy.  The whole pro-choice/pro-life thing—that’s just a tricky issue.  And, yes, you could say, well the Bible says this about life and then there’s another verse that seems to say, well, under certain circumstances. ...  I think that’s the real wedge issue.  But that’s why I was so impressed with Democrats for Life.  And people can go look it up: democratsforlife.org.  Very interesting program.  They want to reduce abortion by 95 percent in 10 years.  So they want to be effective, not just moralistic, and I think that’s important.  Wouldn’t it be great if there were some candidate where someone could say, boy, this one’s totally in line.  But I think what has sometimes happened with George W. Bush—there are times I have heard people talk about him as if they were worshiping him and they make it sound as if we criticize him, as if we’re unpatriotic and also un-Christian.  And I say, George W. is not my god, but I hope he’s nobody’s god.  He’s a man who happens to be in power and does a lot of stuff that some of us don’t agree with and other people do.

Scheer: Now, make it clear though, with abortions, you don’t believe in just ending abortion and not supporting the child through life, right?  Because—.

Seger: I think one has to look at the complexity of the whole issue, because if you force a woman to have a child and then you don’t give her enough money to make a living and you don’t help her with child care and the kids don’t have enough food on the table and they can’t get healthcare, I think there’s something not very Christian about that.  That’s why that issue is so complicated.  It’s not just about that fetus; it’s about what’s going to happen in the next 20 years or 40 years in that person’s life and do we really care or do we just care about the embryo and the fetus?  I think that’s why it’s such a complicated issue.
Scheer: Well, thank you for helping us shed some light on these complicated issues and thank you for joining us.

Harris: She’s written the book “Jesus Rode a Donkey.”  You might grab a copy. For Josh Scheer, this is James Harris, and this is Truthdig.


New and Improved Comments

If you have trouble leaving a comment, review this help page. Still having problems? Let us know. If you find yourself moderated, take a moment to review our comment policy.

Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, May 14, 2007 at 6:57 pm Link to this comment

Reply to #68312 by Paul on 5/05 at 12:18 am

But the really interesting thing to me is that this same myth, legend or whatever you want to call it is so world-wide and occurs throughout history. Why? I actually believe it is because there really is a holy hpirit, which might have been called by a thousand names in the course of history. I pray to that holy spirit for help and guidance all the time. In Jesus’ name, amen.

Report this

By Logician, May 6, 2007 at 6:06 pm Link to this comment

Re#68493 by Jim H. on 5/06:

Hey, as long as you don’t bend over or believe that line: “It is as Gabriel’s trumpet, my boy;” you should be safe, right?

Duly noted, however.  He that has been abbreviated shall now be named:  Mr. Billy Hart, believer in fairy tales.

I know how you feel, though.  I obviously outclass over 99% of the believers I am subjected to and have been confused as one of them when I can quote not only chapter and verse but comparative translations and attendant original stories they are copied from. 

Rather like being compared to a chimp, actually, although far more insulting.  At least the chimp isn’t trying to boink my son or steal my money…

Which reminds me: have you ever seen any animal other than man worshipping larger than life images of its own species?  If that isn’t one big-assed clue I don’t know what is…

Be of good cheer, Jim H.  There are realists out here, far and few though we may be.  The time is coming soon when open admission of intelligence will endanger one’s life, however.  Another Dark Age, that crowning achievement of the filth of christianity, is upon us unless we can fight the mindless off.  The trouble is, how do we dumb the message down ENOUGH?  I would think we’d run out of crayons after a while…

I know! Instead of American Idol, we’ll have American Idiot!  The moron who can believe the most stupid sh*t can take home a self-sterilization kit so his kin can rest easy at night.  We’ll make millions!  We’ll live as we please, do whatever we want, and take all their money, just like the evangelists! 

Trouble is, I just can’t keep a straight face when dealing with mouth-breathing morons that tell me “Jesus Saves!”  I usually just laugh and say, “So does Datsun, but you don’t see anyone killing anyone else over it!”

Spoon! 

(A gold Palm Leaf with Bronze Oak Leaf cluster to ANYONE on this site who can tell me who uses that epithet when going into battle…)

Report this

By Jim H., May 6, 2007 at 1:43 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

To: 68245 Logician
Re: “Gee, Mr. H.(?) (BILL HART) how do I fight what was invented by man’s imagination?”

Hello Mr.Logic Thank you again!
This time, it’s for your welcome discussion about the ‘Babble’ of the “Bible”! And, your additional refutations of disgorgings’ relating to all that hogwash about the illogical “imagination” conjectured, posing of a fairytales, make-believe “Creator-Jesus-God”!
I’m most happy to know that I am in the company of another ‘down-to-earth’ realist. But, PLEASE? PLEASE? when addressing “Hart”, please write"HART” instead of “Mr.H” so that some of his ilk don’t get the notion that you are addressing Jim H. and take pleasure in believing I am the product of a sudden instant conversion by some proselytizing Evangelical faggot hereabouts?
I thank You.
Ciao, Jim H.

Report this

By Hondo, May 5, 2007 at 8:02 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Comment #67114 by masonmyatt is very typical of what I have come to expect from the modern liberaliar. Masonmyatt was responding to my earler comment, which just so happens to be the only comment in this thread that actually addresses the “Jesus Rode a Donkey” podcast. My comment presented hard, cold facts that prove that all of Linda Seger’s “opinions” are actually fiction. Did masonmyatt try to rebut my arguments with facts, logic or reason? No, of course not. Masonmyatt is a liberaliar, and, as such, is incapable factual, logical, reasonable thought. He simply went on an incoherent rant about Karl Rove, the Bush conspiracy, etc. and he called me names. Very intelligent! Just once, I would like to see a liberal actually attempt to make a logical, fact-based argument in defense of their cockamamie beliefs. Oh well. I suspect we’ll see snow cones being sold in Hell before we see a liberal speak the truth!

Report this

By Bill Hart, May 5, 2007 at 7:57 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

You know I have told you truth , but you have given yourselfs over to the forces of EVIL, YOU only want to cover up any truth , no matter how small , call this Dig Truthcoverup ! YOU CAN still be saved by the BLOOD OF JESUS. Call on him in your day of trouble and he will save you . TIME IS almost run out . CHRIST will return soon to JUDGE ALL THINGS .

Report this

By Jim H., May 5, 2007 at 2:39 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re: 68312 by Paul
Hello Paul;
I find your post to be both greatly enlightening, and delightful!
Too bad those ‘robots’ have neither the mental capacity or integrity to take it serious. They will likely come up with a rejoinder somewhat like this: “I knew that” “Jesus told me”. “Those are meant to be ‘tests’ of our faith in ‘Him”!  “He Created them in His image”!

But I for one very much appreciate your effort to ‘infuse’ reality into this venue.
Ciao, Jim

Report this

By Jim H., May 5, 2007 at 2:37 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re: 68312 by Paul
Hello Paul;
I find your post to be both greatly enlightening, and delightful!
Too bad those ‘robots’ have neither the mental capacity or integrity to take it serious.
They will likely come up with a rejoinder somewhat like this: “I knew that” “Jesus told me”.
“Those are meant to be ‘tests’ of our faith in ‘Him”!  “He Created them in His image”!

But I for one very much appreciate your effort to ‘infuse’ reality into this venue.
Ciao, Jim

Report this

By Paul, May 5, 2007 at 1:18 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Sorry Maani.  You lose.  Plenty of older religions than christianity mirror the Jesus myth, even down to names.  let’s see….hmmm Bhudda. 500BC, Born to the virgin Maya (AK Queen of Heaven), miracles and wonders, crucified, three days to the underworld, reborn.  Ok that’s one.  Who else….Horus, ancient Egypt.  Well before christian times.  Born December 25 to Isis/Meri, 12 disciples (vaguely astrological don’t you think?)  Miracles, walk on water etc etc, also known as “Iusa” (ever becoming son) of Ptah (Father).  Crucified, buried, resurrected….

Next we have Mithra.  Roman god of sayyy 600BC.  Born December 25th, performed the requisite miracles, died (don’t know how this time), buried in a tomb rose three days later…

OK one more.  Krishna.  Well and truly predates the Jesus story.  Birth attended by angels, wise men and shepherds.  gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh,  lived life of poverty, raised this healed that, hung on a tree between two thieves, died…three days…reappeared, Title of JEZEUS bestowed by followers (means pure essence).  Pleny of scholars doubt the existence of Jesus just by dint of the repetitive story alone.  And everyone with half a brain knows the Flavius Josephus is a Eusebian fraud because contemporary editions of Josephus have turned up with that section conspicuously lacking.

That’s the whole thing about American christians.  you just won’t open a credible book.

Report this

By Jim H., May 4, 2007 at 8:43 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

RE: #67829 by Douglas Chalmers on 5/02 at 6:41 pm
THIS IS A CRITIQUE BY CHALMERS OF AN EXCERPT OF My, JIM H. POSTING: #67593 by Jim H. on 5/01 at 6:53 PM: and my, (Jim H.) retort to Chalmer’s atrocious errors.  Here’s the excerpt:
“...Who, or what created your “Creator”?  And, who, or what created that which, created the who, or what, that created ‘YOUR’ “CREATOR”? Or; what, created the creator, that created the creator, that created the creator, that created the creator, that created ‘YOUR’ “CREATOR”...?”

AND, HERE, IS CHALMERS ERRONEOUS ACERBIC CRITIQUE THAT INCLUDES AT LEAST 7 SEVEN TIMES HE VERY OBVIOUSLY CONTRADICTS HIMSELF!

Chalmers :< “That’s not so much a question but a statement of ignorance.”(?) 
Jim H. >(1) “not a question”?  (This is a lie! and contradiction!)
>(2) “a statement of ignorance”?  (This is a lie! and contradiction!)
<“Science now accepts that there was and original creation as well as evolution. That is,
<“the “big bang” was the beginning” of the creation of the universe and all that is in it
>(3) ” the “big bang” was the beginning” (This is a lie! WHICH YOU HERE BELOW CONTRADICT!)
<” Unremarkably, that equates with the thousands of years of teachings from all the major religions.” 
>(4) (LIE! and contradiction. >Christianity claims ‘all’ was created about 6,ooo years ago!) 
>Jim H. excerpt “...“ALWAYS WAS”! Or, WAS “WITHOUT A BEGINNING”? which in fact, is a valid >description of the “ORIGIN OF NATURE”!...”
<“This is actually incorrect as far as the creation of what is termed “nature” is concerned. It did have a >beginning (?) and, as was explained, that was what science calls “the big bang”. (?)
>(5) (This is a lie! My words cannot be proven untrue!)     
<“But, as a mere product of the subsequent evolution which occurred over the billions of years” after the <initial creation of the universe (“the big bang”), “we humans can never know the “original cause” or that <which created the universe or caused the big bang commencement of creation.”
>(6) You say here-“after the initial creation—- (“the big bang) we—can never know the cause of creation”)    >(One more lying contradiction!)
>(7)(Admitted Contradiction) i.e. “—-we can never know the cause of creation” (!)
>(but) “That is what religion calls the absolute creator (“God”),” “In other words, science and religion have <recently arrived at the same conclusion—- “(!) (”—-we can never know the cause of creation”). 

>This last statement sums up your, (Chalmers) whole argument, and verifies the stupid inaccuracy of your denials and numerous contradictions of my realistic, and not disproved assertion!

>First , you say:”  <Science now accepts that there was an original creation”  Then, you say “after the <initial creation of the universe (“the big bang”), “we humans can never know the original cause of creation “(?) >Isn’t this absurd? And have you no pangs of conscience for your lying insolence and cheap insulting >remarks to one not inflicted as you are with the inability to understand such glaring dichotomy as you >commit here?
>Beginning is never found but keep your ear to the ground Accept the words of a friend theres no beginning >or end Natures Origin for instance is ceaselessness existence

Report this

By Bill Hart, May 4, 2007 at 8:22 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

YOU a MIA,, You said it , THE MISSING LINKS <, are all Missing , And your open minds are MISSING IN INACTION ! I Can see truth , you aready fell in the pit , and don’t know you are in HELL ! YOU DO NOT HAVE a BETTER WORLD TO OFFER , MY REAL GOD ( JESUS ) CHANGES PEOPLE FOR BETTER . try as you will . you are a losser , saying I am my own god , you have nothing of value .

Report this

By Jim H., May 4, 2007 at 7:37 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

RE:#67829 Douglas Chalmers
To: Chalmer?
Are you serious?  Or, based on your MANY written contradictions enumerated in your posting, must we all accept that you writecomedy for a living? 
You were apparently so busy trying to find some method for discrediting my very ‘succinct’ and factual expose’ of your “GODISM’ and it’s “CREATOR” that you stumbled, and repeatedly contradicted yourself regarding your so called “CREATION’! at least SEVEN, 7 times?
The “Big Bang” is just another “CREATED” term for a ‘so called’ nonexistent “CREATION”?
You appear just another of those hopeless nincompoops, that don’t have their heads screwed on right! And, like all those other helpless idiots, you fail to give any support to your asinine assertions including your ‘QUOTING’ or “CITING” the so-called “BIG BANG THEORY”, which is just another conjecture of idiots who wish to give a different name for so-called “God’s Creation”. But if you could read, and had a bit more sense then you openly display here, you would know there is absolutely no more way to prove the so-called “BIG BANG THEORY”, then there is to PROVE your silly idea of a “God Creator”, because, SOMETHING, perhaps another “BIG BANG”, or, a series of minuscule “BANGS”, or something else unknown to us caused the “BIG BANG”!  But, as I have said here, that there is absolutely no REASON to believe there ever was a ‘so called’ BEGINNING!  Anything you could possibly imagine except the ORIGIN OF NATURE, requires an ‘impetus’, but the endless, ceaslessness of NATURE is ever ongoing! Or prove otherwise!

Report this

By Bill Hart, May 4, 2007 at 6:47 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

YOU sound like the Blind leading the Blind, Feel sorry for Fools , you are so great ,you are gods in your own minds. Just don’t fix anything for me ...

Report this

By Logician, May 4, 2007 at 4:43 pm Link to this comment

Re# 67584,67589,67591,67814,67820 by Bill Hart:

67584: Gee, Mr. H., how do I fight what was invented by man’s imagination?  More fairy tales?  No.  The truth will do.  What is the truth? 67589, the KJV in ANY form, from ANY time, in ANY translation is nothing more than very poorly plagiarized copies of earlier legends and fairy tales.  No truth there, so where?

Obviously not 67591: “Hillary still talks to the DEAD, WHY???” What the heck are you babbling about?  Are you trying to be allegorical? (have someone look it up for you) 

67814: “power blocks.”? Are they anything like Lego blocks?  Where are you getting this garbage?  Oh, I see: #67820:  Please sit down, Mr. H.  I have some very bad news for you.  It might hurt, so I want you to be sitting down.  Here it goes:

Not everything you read on the internet is true.  Really.  Especially the laughably idiotic crap at that site you reference in #67820.  I now understand what you are trying to say.  To even dignify any of the stunningly ignorant ranting on that site with a reply is a waste of time.  So I’ll address what you stated about Josephus.

#67814 “Hot air does not prove Josephus 100 a.d. & a.c. Sutton 1981 are wrong, I need proofs.”  Would you like AC/DC as well?  As for Sutton, same as above: to even acknowledge the stupidity is to give it too much legitimacy. 

As for Josephus:  Go to a library.  That’s a building with lots of books in it.  Talk to a librarian (the nice woman or man who knows so much) and ask her/him for some LEGITIMATE references on the Testimonium Flaviamum. You will find all the “proofs” you “need”. Legitimate means by respected scholars, not internet cranks who like to type imbecilic conspiracy theories.

For the roots of the compilation of plagiarized fairy tales you call the bible, ask the nice woman or man for research on biblical roots in ancient religions.  You’d be surprised how many there are.  In fact, there is far MORE evidence of the plagiarisms than there is about Jesus.  Which isn’t too hard, really, as there is NO proof ANYONE named Jesus existed during the time of his alleged miraculous doings.  Sorry to burst your bubble, but that’s the truth. 

Now, Mr. H., have someone read those studies to you and explain all those big words for you.  Why, you might actually learn something!  You might learn why when you step into a group of people who have learned about the world in which they live and you start babbling like you’re about to drop into a seizure, we naturally think you must be mentally challenged or in desperate need of medication.

Don’t despair, though, Mr. H.  Perhaps with time even you may learn to think at least somewhat critically and begin to examine the lies you read on the internet and in the bible and hear from that adulterous hypocrite behind the pulpit you sit in front of every Sunday.

One can only hope…

Report this

By Douglas Chalmers, May 2, 2007 at 7:41 pm Link to this comment

#67593 by Jim H. on 5/01 at 6:53 pm: “...Who, or what created your “Creator”?  And, who, or what created that which, created the who, or what, that created ‘YOUR’ “CREATOR”? Or; what, created the creator, that created the creator, that created the creator, that created the creator, that created ‘YOUR’ “CREATOR”...?”

That’s not so much a question but a statement of ignorance. Science now accepts that there was and original creation as well as evolution. That is, the “big bang” was the beginning of the creation of the universe and all that is in it. Unremarkably, that equates with the thousands of years of teachings from all of the major religions.

“...“ALWAYS WAS”! Or, WAS “WITHOUT A BEGINNING”? which in fact, is a valid description of the “ORIGIN OF NATURE”!...” This is actually incorrect as far as the creation of what is termed “nature” is concerned. It did have a beginning and, as was explained, that was what science calls “the big bang”.

But, as a mere product of the subsequent evolution which occurred over the billions of years after the initial creation of the universe (“the big bang”), we humans can never know the “original cause” or that which created the universe or caused the big bang commencement of creation.

That is what religion calls the absolute creator (“god”). In other words, science and religion have recently arrived at the same conclusion as far as that is concerned. Neither know anything more than that, though. We can only ever understand it as the “original creative force”.

Its not a matter of “who” created in the beginning because this is not a person so much as an active principle beyond human conception. Until humans learn to live in harmony and solve all of their own problems on this Earth, it will not be possible to progress further.  Individualization as humans and then “who - he or she” is a result of “its” creation and we have yet to learn WHY we were created.

Report this

By Bill H., May 2, 2007 at 6:32 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

George H. Scherf(F), jr. was the 41 st. U.S. president (S.S. & Nazi) the other part of power block. SOURCE = http://WWW.proliberty.com/observer/20070405.htm

Report this

By Bill H., May 2, 2007 at 6:16 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I am showing you the power blocks . Hot air does not prove Josephus 100 a.d. & a.c. Sutton 1981 are wrong , I need proofs .THE Trilaterals & Council on Foreign Relations are in your face total control power blocks . Next they plan a North American Union , like the E.U….. I pray that Jesus will open eyes at Truthdig to see real truth ... ONLY the Blood of JESUS SAVES….

Report this

By Jim H., May 1, 2007 at 7:53 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Bill Hart;
Who, or what created your “Creator”?  And, who, or what created that which, created the who, or what, that created ‘YOUR’ “CREATOR”? Or; what, created the creator, that created the creator, that created the creator, that created the creator, that created ‘YOUR’ “CREATOR”?
If you accept what is taught by the criminal charlatan purveyors of that “Godism” you believe in, you therefore believe that your make-believe “God” “ALWAYS WAS”! Or, WAS “WITHOUT A BEGINNING”? which in fact, is a valid description of the “ORIGIN OF NATURE”!  And, when a beginning cannot be determined, or found, a ‘so called’ “Creator” is a superflous absurdity!  For simple minded people to better comprehend this seeming dichotomy, I suggest you, and they ‘stare at’, and concentrate on a ‘circle’, and, point to a begining! or, a ‘creation’  point!  Then, when you ‘give up’, read this:
THE ORIGIN OF NATURE
  Beginning is never found but keep an ear to the ground
  Accept the word of a friend there’s no beginning or end
Natures origin for instance is ceaselessness Existence
Jim H. 8/29/06
Your “Jesus” is a fairytale character like “Porky Pig” and “Mickey Mouse”! Why are you so “BLOOD” thirsty?

Report this

By Bill Hart, May 1, 2007 at 7:27 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

In 1945 F.D.R. said if it happened , we planed it that way , Hillary still talks to the DEAD , WHY ??? yes Civil war , ww1 , ww2 , were all scams ,, all that killing for a big LIE >>............    a one world government will be hell on earth , and Global warming is all a Big lie too , and the big bang is the biggest lie of all time , see you do not have to go to HELL ..... ONLY THE BLOOD OF JESUS saves ...............

Report this

By Bill HART, May 1, 2007 at 7:14 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

So I WILL say God looks at the inside of man ,, Not what school , or how much money you have ,or power , etc. etc. etc. you see HE is CREATOR and its in his will , or you have fooled yourself , saying I am better than GOds way . A BET read the whole King JAMES BIBLE 1611 , come back and see me , KNOW WHAT !  HE WILL CHANGE YOU !!!!!

Report this

By Bill Hart, May 1, 2007 at 6:58 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

YOU MISSED IT AGAIN , I am nobody , BUT only the HOLY SPRIT gives truth , you will never see it without GODS help…... HE is in me , and I am in HIM ....Believe on the Lord JESUS and you will be SAVED >>>......GUYS YOU ARE LOST LOST LOST LOST <<<,,,,,,,,,,,REPENT means to do about face , to turn around . YES I TYPE TOO FAST <<<..  BUT ONLY THE BLOOD OF JESUS SAVES,, THE BIBLE SAYS , IN their wisdom THEY BECAME FOOLS >>>.....stop fighting GOD !

Report this

By Logician, May 1, 2007 at 2:12 am Link to this comment

Re# 67203,67342,67345,67349,67355 by Bill Hart:

Some questions: 67203 “THUTH STARTS with the Blood of jesus, THUTH COMES from Holy sprit….not SCHOOLS…”
Uh, exactly what are you trying to say?  Would that be TRUTH, as opposed to THUTH, or do you just have a really bad lisp?  And to what SCHOOLS are you refering?  Certainly not the ones where you ‘learned’ spelling and grammer? 

67342: Regarding Josephus’ history of the Jews: the passage you are refering to was first inserted into the text of the book by Eusebius, in earlier translations the reference to Jesus was marked IN THE MARGINS in handwriting NOT SIMILAR to the original.  I don’t know who YOU are, Bill Hart, but no REPUTABLE scholar considers this anything but a bad, bad forgery by Christian apologists embarrassed by the fact that there are NO references to Jesus ANYWHERE but the fairy tales of the bible.

67349: As for Antony c. Sutton PHD: another conspiracy theorist with wild theories that could conceivably sound good to someone who believes the fairy tales found in the bible.  As for any scholar: no dice.  Better documentation on the X-Files.  Heck of a lot better writing, too.

Really, Mr. Hart.  If you want to present your case in a forum of this sort, realize that cretinism is in poor taste and only makes those of us who can spell and use correct grammer think even less of the intellectual quality of those gullible enough to believe in Jesus.

Try using your GI bill and going to school to learn not only spelling and grammer but about the history of one of the worst lies in history: the bible, a compendium of the most poorly plagiarized fairy tales yet to be found.  Nothing original in it except the names, presumably to protect the innocent, as Sgt Friday would say.

Report this

By Douglas Chalmers, April 30, 2007 at 11:35 pm Link to this comment

#67342 by Bill HART on 4/30 at 4:43 pm: “...Only Blood of JESUS SAVES…”

This may be so to those who understand His sacrifice but it also means that he sacrificed ONCE and once only. The rest of it is up to us - we have to follow by doing our personal best despite the adversity if the sacrifices of others is to still mean anything. Otherwise, we are all lost. 

I think you understand that if you  were in the armed forces although the last real war that the USA fought in ended in 1945. Sadly, the rest have been invasions and the USSR eventually had its naval base at Cam Ranh Bay anyway. No-one in the West bothers to remember that the Viet Minh freed their country from the French who re-invaded after WW2.

Don’t let’s forget that the French who were there for 100’s of years thought of themselves as Christians. They also believed in “egalite, liberte and fraternate” but for themselves - not for others. Latterly the French went on to nuclear testing in the Pacific at Mururoa in “French” Polynesia which only ended a little more than a decade ago.

By the time you guys arrived, the Vietnamese were already indoctrinated in the worst violence by the Japanese occupation as well as the French colonial occupation. Before that, there was an almost continuous occupation by the empire of China for 1,000 years which they utterly hated.

Report this

By Bill Hart, April 30, 2007 at 6:55 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

FACT : In 1967 I was Fighting Troops from RED CHINA in mts. of south Vietnam , also working with Former Communist I asked him what were all the nice building we would pass on transport trucks and he Said to me They were schools , and First thing the Communist Did was to KILL ALL SCHOOL TEACHERS , next they Killed all Village leaders and Fimily , this I saw first Hand , even helped dig up 16 year old girl who was Village leaders Child .  ONlY THE BLOOD OF JESUS SAVES .......

Report this

By Bill Hart, April 30, 2007 at 6:37 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

In 1981 Antony c. Sutton PHD. CFR insider Wrote (Trilaterals over Washington ) and other books with full Docs . supporting that the USA craeted and supported both Hitler and the Communist at same time , with end of destroying american freedoms and to create THE ONE WORLD Order and how we were forced into WW1 & WW11 to create it ... ITS full supporting docs in his books , can get old copies on e-bay at times….  ONLY THE BLOOD OF JESUS SAVES , Amerika is LOST !!!!!!!!!

Report this

By Bill Hart, April 30, 2007 at 6:15 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

MORE HISTORY FACTS Euesbius of Ceasarea (A.D.260-339) wrote of CHRIST & Christians . Supports all of Bible and jesus as being FACT. Accepted as correct history too .. KNOW YOUR FACTS ,, JESUS IS REAL ,only his Blood save ,, I will send facts till you unending ....

Report this

By Bill HART, April 30, 2007 at 5:43 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Hitler, F.D.R. , Carl Marks , all were heavy into the Occult . Read george orwell (1984) that is Amerika today , It’s all Lies in college , Churches , Government , News media . Read Josephus Roman history of Jews . dated 100 A. D. tells of Christ and Christians . Learn your History .. Only Blood of JESUS SAVES

Report this

By Jim Hanley, April 30, 2007 at 8:16 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Maani;
Thanks for your offer, but I fear it is not sincere because anyone who is infected with that horrid infectious ‘Plague’ “Godism” is too deeply entrenched in a mind altering state of ‘delerious euphoria’ that locks out any semblance of truth!, and augements attacks on all who questions the reasoning thereof lest they should cause a sudden relapse to reality.
As for Htler? It is enough to know ‘he’ was “baptised a Christian”, and was supported in his efforts to exterminate all Jews, and aethists by no less than “Mussolini”, “The Vatican”, and “The Pope”! I do not have any curiosity about, or reason to delve into either the “history” of “Hitler”, and insane bigoted Christian slaughterers, so I would most certainly not be in the least bit interrested in “Recent history of Cristianity and Hitler’s role—-in it”!
If you would like to know what I ‘am’ interested in, go to this site: http://www.centerforinquiry.net/cser/ .   
And then go to this site: http://www.csicop.org/si/.  Ciao, J.H.

Report this

By leo, April 30, 2007 at 8:02 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

jesus christ was dead for over 500 yrs. before he became an icon to the christain movement little or nothing is knowen about this person read your history.

Report this

By Bill Hart, April 29, 2007 at 6:41 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

First we are right , next you get MAD and vote left .. IT’s all a big SCAM ,, IT’s fixed by THE C.F.R. etc . ALL to get to A NEW WORLD ORDER ! IT’S all to take more control each time . Are AMERIKA’S the dumbest people on EARTH or what ? THUTH STARTS with the Blood of jesus , THUTH COMES from Holy sprit…...not SCHOOLS ....

Report this

By Jim H., April 29, 2007 at 1:32 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Maani;
Thanks for your offer, but I fear it is not sincere because anyone who is infected with that horrid infectious ‘Plague’ “Godism” is too deeply entrenched in the mind altered state of ‘delerious euphoria’ that locks out any semblance of truth!, and augements attacks on all who questions the reasoning thereof lest they should cause a sudden relapse to reality.

As for Htler? It is enough to know ‘he’ was “baptised a Christian”, and was supported in his efforts to exterminate all Jews, and aethists by no less than “Mussolini”, “The Vatican”, and “The Pope”! I do not have any curiosity about or reason to delve into either the “history” of Hitler”,or insane bigoted Christian slaughterers,so I would most certainly not be in the least bit interrested in “recent history of Cristianity and Hitler’s role—-in it”!
If you would like to know what I ‘am’ interested in, go to this site: http://www.centerforinquiry.net/cser/ .   
And then go to this site: http://www.csicop.org/si/.  Ciao, J.H.

Report this

By masonmyatt, April 29, 2007 at 4:25 am Link to this comment

65755 Hondo:

You may have long left this site.  If you have, I hope it was to take some time to read a few reputable papers and/or reliable journalists.  This site is not for personal attacks or name-calling but for 6 years I have watched our nation and the historical values it has stood for being decimated by Bush, Cheney and their neo-con puppet masters and it is time to stop them and time for you as their sheep-like minion to stop parroting their lies.  Did the tax cut mean that much to you—-to sell your soul?  I ask that specifically because I defy you to name another major piece of legislation advanced by Bush that has even pretended to accomplish anything.  Any 10th grader here in Alabama could list a couple dozen major misdeeds, obsfucations, lies, scandals and outright crimes.  You could too and you know it.

I was lucky enough to get a more than decent education in a couple of the nation’s good schools.  I was lucky to have the wherewithal to do the work and lucky to find the best schools to support my research and to give me the money to do it. But, the truth about this administration is obvious to anyone with a GED who cares to know the truth. No advanced work required.

But, the level of willful ignorance expressed in your simplisitc comments does not present as the result of a less than adequate IQ or of too little education.  In fact, your retorts to the other contributers were in lock-step with Rove’s well established talking points on every issue you claim to address.  The fact that you can writea complete sentence with adequate punctuation is clear evidence that you are too smart to possibly believe what you are saying. If those were your beliefs, you would have expressed them with at least a modicum of originality. You parroted.

I find it amazing that you right-wingers haven’t the sense to realize as you usurp more and more power into the executive branch that in time, a liberal or a Democrat is going to sit in the Oval Office.  Only rhetorically do I ask what you’d think if either of the Clintons had done or will do the precise things you have supported in Bush.  Have you so little sense of history that you don’t know the tide will turn.  You’d better forget Rove and forget your well remembered talking points and start studying the hisotry of America and its Constitution.

You continued with the practice described by Bill Moyers this week when we saw Bush and his minions repeating over and over again the same bald face lies.  They and you are relying on the American penchant for falling for almost any fool notion if they hear it often enough.  You know your assertions are untrue and that the truths you are attacking can be documented by easily by anyone who can read.

A year ago I was completely disheartened.  Now I have hope.  Conservative Republicans are now lining up to attack the war, Bush, Rumsfeld, Gonzales, Rove, Cheney, Libby, DeLay, the various pedophiles, whoremongers, tax cheats, campaign cheats and plain old war criminals that were not long ago the targets of only a few “liberal” Democrats.  The president has the tired old, steadfast 32% he has had from the beginning.  Check out the geography of his fundamentalist base.  It is in the deep red states that are the nation’s poorest, are the lowest in student test scores, the least educated population and who proudly reject most learning since the Age of Reason.  You need to think about the imploding stars to which you have hitched your wagon. Or not.  Hope you enjoy 8 years of Hillary!

Report this

By Douglas Chalmers, April 28, 2007 at 4:52 pm Link to this comment

#66650 by Lefty on 4/26 at 7:32 pm: “... Hitler was a tribalistic, psychopathic murderer…”

Hitler? A psychopath, perhaps, but definitely not “tribalistic” and, like many mass murderers, not even a killer himself in the personal face-to-face sense. Don’t allow the propaganda of the past to color your thinking or you will also be unable to see the same thing as it is happening in the modern day - in the USA!

Some of the more interesting things about Hitler, according to people who either knew him or knew those in his close circle, were that he was a charming host, a vegetarian and inclined to be psychic to the extent that he would often go into trance and be overshadowed by his “demons”.

If there was ever anyone who was/is “tribalistic”, though, its George Bush and his Southern Baptists. I don’t know what they get him bombed up on but I really doubt that he is in any way naturally psychic but you never know with ex-alcoholics - strange things go on in their brains.

Condoleezza Rice is a different matter. Have you seen some of the pics of Hitler in the 1930’s and then compared his eyes with hers when she is in one of those ‘serious’ moods? They are quite similar. Then again, isn’t she in charge of those “secret prisons” they use for “renditioning” (kidnapping and torture)?

Report this

By Maani, April 28, 2007 at 2:55 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Jim:

I am curious.  How much historical material have you read on Hitler?  I’m not talking about his own writings, but scholarly works on Hitler, his history, and the recent history of Cristianity and Hitler’s role (or lack thereof) in it?


As for “my” “beloved criminal religious empire,” it may surprise you to know that I have never supported it - in any fashion.  I am opposed to what might be called the “organized, mainstream, hierarchical” church, and have been since I became a Christian.  So I am actually on your side in many regards.

But I suppose you don’t want or need any allies - especially a “fifth column” in the “enemy camp” - do you?

Peace.

Report this

By Will.HART, April 27, 2007 at 7:24 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The real Jesus of the BIBLE did battle with the church leaders of his day , & the deamons , HE never said or did battle with government , He said my FATHERS HOUSE is a house of prayer,, or give to Ceaser what is his money.. SO will someone tell me why Hillary C. talks to the dead to get answers to her problems ?? to be our leader too , she is filled with DEAMONS , Al Gore is a Communist , and fill of big GREEN LIES >......

Report this

By Jim Hanley, April 27, 2007 at 5:32 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Maani; You say:
(Your words!) “—- anyone can claim—- anything they like—-”(!)       
(Your words!)
NOW! LOOK IN THE MIRROR, and repeat this: “anyone can claim anything they like”!, and ask yourself why? knowing this, you, the fool reflected in that mirror, insists on mouthing, or writing so many absurd “CLAIMS”?
Then, ask yourself why? you have the utmost gaul, being so unable as you are, to ever face a proven fact that ‘rasps you hide raw and sore’? and proves you a simple minded liar;?  why? you ever deny that one of ‘your own’ cadre, compadre, and a fellow traveler, a man who was “Baptized”! into your very own criminal “religious denomination”! why? do you insist that “Hitler was not a Christian”?  Isn’t this a bit of wishful thinking? Aren’t you abashed, and too red-faced, and embarrassed to swallow that pill? and face up to the fact that all your silly “—-anyone can—-” claims” can never, I say never!, eradicate, or alter the indelibly written facts, that a member of your same beloved criminal religious empire showed his true colors, and proved for all time the bigotry that lingers, ‘hibernating’? waiting for another chance to rid the world of multimillions of those who are intelligent enough to see through the ‘smoke-and-mirrors’charlatan swindling, schemes,  slavery, and debilitating subservience that are ‘their’ tools, and purpose??? Omega!

Report this

By bogi666, April 25, 2007 at 1:22 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Some of the dialog is too sugar coated, especially the comments about whether the Republican Party uses Christianity for political purposes. It’s obvious they do. As for the phony preachers[the Biblical Harlots]with their false doctrines, ie:the rapture, left behind fiction, these are the fornications of the Bible by the Harlots such as; Falwell, Robertson, Dobson,Hagee, Franklin Graham and their ilk. Their congregations are the gathering places[synagogue] of Satan and the members are fools. The Harlot preachers insult, abuse,and recite false doctrines[lies] and call their audiences of fools foul names AND THEN BEG FOR MONEY FROM THOSE THEY HAVE INSULTED, ABUSED AND CALLED FOUL NAMES and the fools give them money. These dynamics are on television and you can bet the Republicans watch them and know that these people are fools. Through faith based initiative, abstinence only until age 29, and other programs they bribe the preachers with taxpayers monies for their acquiescence and support for votes.They are also tax exempt so it’s a sweet deal, government subsidies and no taxes.

Report this

By Maani, April 24, 2007 at 8:01 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Jim:

You really must learn to govern your passions; they WILL be your undoing.  LOL.

As I noted, anyone can claim to be anything they like, as many times and in as many ways as they like.  But ACTIONS speak louder than words.  And NOTHING Hitler did - not one idea, position, action, approach or philosophy - showed ANY concept of true “Christianity” as that word follows from the life and ministry of the personage known as Jesus (whether or not you believe he existed…LOL).

Indeed, if we look at the main precepts of Jesus’ ministry - love, peace, forgiveness, compassion, humility, patience, charity, selflessness, service, justice, truth - we see that Hitler’s ACTIONS showed that he was the polar opposite in EVERY case: hateful, warlike, unforgiving, lacking compassion, arrogant, impatient, uncharitable, self-involved, egomaniacal, unjust and a liar.

Given this, how can you POSSIBLY suggest that Hitler was a “Christian” in any meaningful sense of the word?

It is said that “a picture is worth a thousand words.”  So is an action.  And Hitler’s actions show unequivocally that he was NOT a “Christian,” no matter how many speeches he made to the contrary.

Peace.

Report this

By Douglas Chalmers, April 24, 2007 at 3:29 pm Link to this comment

#65980 by Maani on 4/23 at 9:06 pm: “...I could claim over and over to be a Serbo-Croatian, but that does not make me one….”

Well, a Serb would never claim to be a Croat and a Croat (Hrvatski) would never claim to be a Serb. Just because the USA bombed Belgrade doesn’t mean that you know anything about them. Same for Vietnam, Korea and Iraq. Where can the US meaningfully (or profitably) express its ignorance next?

“...Hitler’s claims of Christianity were as phony as a six-dollar bill.  Hitler was an Aryan, and his goal was the creation of a “master race” of Aryans…”

No, Hitler was an Austrian (like Sarkosy in France is a Hungarian) but not an Aryan.  He certainly was helped by what happened to the German DeutscheMark which became worthless between the wars. That could happen to the US dollar soon too.

 

“...Hitler USED Christianity in order to further his goal of the eradication of the Jews.  However, it is absolutely clear that once he had completed that, he would have turned on the Christians next, since they did not fit into his plan for an Aryan master race any more than the Jews did….”

Who is “using” the Southern Baptists and any others dumb enough now? And, now, Jewish support in the US is all very well but US Jews supporting Israel is no longer acceptable since Israel sold military secrets to China (2005).

Saudi Arabia is now being supported by both Britain and the US and Israel will eventually be dumped. If Israel conveniently bombs Iran in the meantime, though, they will be given a second chance.

Of course, that would inevitably be a nuclear attack. The rationale is that the USA can “wash its hands” of attacking Iran itself and of starting yet another war or invasion without UN approval. Any day, now!!!

Report this

By Jim Hanley, April 24, 2007 at 3:01 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Maani;
You LIE! when you utter this ridiculous falslehood: “Hitler’s claims of Christianity were as phony as a six-dollar bill.”
THE CONFIRMED AND PROVEN FACTS:
Hitler, baptized and raised as a Catholic! used Evangelical Christians to Massacre Atheists! Hitler using Christianity to Inspire Nazism: “I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.” Adolf Hitler
It is Christians and not international atheists who now stand at the head of Germany. I do not merely talk of Christianity, no, I also profess that I will never ally myself with the parties which destroy Christianity.
Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Stuttgart, February 15, 1933.
Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord. Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Hitler, baptized and raised as a Catholic, grew up knowing the power of religion on average citizen. When he was in power, he henceforth set a goal to make Germany a pure Christian nation. He beleive like Napoleon before him that “religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet.” He schemed to unite every Christian sect in the country, Catholic and Protestant alike. I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.  Adolf Hitler We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few   declarations: we have stamped it out.  Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered in Berlin, October 24, 1933. It is Christians and not international atheists who now stand at the head of Germany. I do not merely talk of Christianity, no, I also profess that I will never ally myself with the parties which destroy Christianity. Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Stuttgart, February 15, 1933. Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from Christian faith. Adolf Hitler, from a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant. Only a Catholic could unite Germany Goering, Hitler’s adviser. We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out. Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered in Berlin, October 24, 1933. But this, is ALL besides the point! Why do all you Idiots persist in evading the fact that CHRISTIANITY like all other “Religions” is but a useful tool, sneaky charlatans use to mezmerize innocent children and fools like yourself so you help to perpetuate the crimes they are ever comitting against humanity and little kids, who must kneel before them and beg forgiveness for imagined evils the children never committed but are forced to plead for atonement for, from these rats at the risk of being raped! It wasn’t bad enough that most of the innocents were burdened since birth with an Inferiority Complex because: they are born with a so called “Original Sin” according to the “Priests” or “Ministers”.
There is no excuse for you imberciles to continue your criminal actions of knowingly supporting those criminal perverts and their criminal’ Ponzi-racketeering which, by your doing so makes you equally guilty of all their criminal activities!
FACE IT! There NEVER, NEVER, NEVER existed anyone bearing the name of “Jesus Christ”! So stop the bull-crap, and do a bit of research. Don’t buy that pig without seeing it, that might just be a cat in that ‘poke’! And, no ‘ham sandwiches’!

Report this

By Maani, April 24, 2007 at 7:06 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Lefty:

Your response will be seen by everyone as the cop-out it is.  You clearly have no interest in doing any research of your own, but rather simply engaging in ad hominem and unsupportable attacks.  As noted, the numbers I cited for Stalin et al are readily available with a few clicks of the mouse.

Re the “Christian conquest of the Americas,” even if this were true of South/Central America, the number of those killed is included in the 50,000,000.

As for the U.S., “manifest destiny” (the movement of the “white man” from east to west, and the resultant decimation of the Native Americans) was not the result of religion, but economics.  Although it is true that the majority of “first Americans” were Christian, this is largely incidental to the matter: even had they been atheists, manifest destiny - the need to increase land and wealth for the growing “white” population - would still have occurred.

Peace.

Report this
MAN's avatar

By MAN, April 24, 2007 at 5:02 am Link to this comment

OUR AMERICAN DREAM OF BEAUTY DOES REFLECT OUR FATHERS SPIRIT.
IT IS THE COPYCATS WHO COVET THE DREAM THAT ARE HAVING THE NIGHTMARE ON THE OUTSIDE OF THEIR WALLS OF JERICHO.

Report this

By Logician, April 23, 2007 at 11:53 pm Link to this comment

Re#65776 by Maani on 4/22:

Actually, I haven’t answered because I’m still rolling around on the floor over your transparently false claims of rationality in #64778 on 4/18. 

Your supposedly vast scientific education didn’t take if you can still believe in a pie-in-the-sky-make-believe-old-white-man who will cast those of us who use our brains into everlasting fire, but who really, really loves us!

Claiming to be of an oh-so-scientifically rational bent, using the science you think verifies the stupidity of religion then decrying the science which shows the laughably stupid claims of christianity clearly demonstrates the vapidity of christian apologetics.

Your inability to reconcile fact with the fiction of religion is even carried over into your personal statements as evidenced by your two posts: #64778 on 4/18 and #65102 on 4/19 where you stated you were through with debating this topic and didn’t want to invite my rant, yet here you are, still stumbling around.

You have presented nothing original, utilized already proven wrong arguments from other sources, and used poor techniques in doing so.  No further need to talk with y’all.  I can get better entertainment out of a plant.

Oh, yeah, peace.  In our time.  With honor.  And no pulling out!  That would be un-American…

Report this

By Maani, April 23, 2007 at 10:06 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Jim H:

I could claim over and over to be a Serbo-Croatian, but that does not make me one.

Hitler’s claims of Christianity were as phony as a six-dollar bill.  Hitler was an Aryan, and his goal was the creation of a “master race” of Aryans - which is a bloodline, not a religion.  But there are very few (if any) Christians who are also Aryan.  Indeed, as noted, if you study the history of Aryanism, you will find that, if they have any “religion” at all, it is closest to paganism, not Christianity.

As well, you apparently forget your history: among the 5,000,000 non-Jews that Hitler murdered (including gays, blacks, the elderly and the physically and mentally handicapped) were over 3,000,000 Christians.  In one instance alone, Hitler had his men round up all the parish priests in Prussia (slightly less than 500).  Within two years, over 400 had been murdered; less than 5% of all the parish priests in Prussia survived.

As well, I noted that in a 1936 address to the party faithful, Hitler made the following statement: “It is through the peasantry that we will finally destroy Christianity.  One can be a German or a Christian, but not both.”

Hitler USED Christianity in order to further his goal of the eradication of the Jews.  However, it is absolutely clear that once he had completed that, he would have turned on the Christians next, since they did not fit into his plan for an Aryan master race any more than the Jews did.

Peace.

Report this

By Douglas Chalmers, April 23, 2007 at 9:50 pm Link to this comment

#65776 by Maani on 4/22 at 8:23 pm: “...I note that Jim, Logician, Mason, Lefty, DAG et al have all avoided responding to my question as to the historical and current culpability of atheism and scientism in the “insanity and disaster” in the world, since they all openly or tacitly seem to believe that ALL of said insanity and disaster is the fault of faith and religion…..”

People like to have something (or someone) to blame for their problems, their fears and their anxieities. If you can’t be in a religion (or aren’t in one), then you have the opportunity of being able to blame a religion of your choice (or all religions) for whatever your problem is.

This is how people save themselves from going insane in this insane world. Thus it is important that people can avail themselves of a whipping horse by “having faith” and blaming others or by “not having faith” and blaming those who do.

Does that sound clever? No? Oh!

Report this

By Douglas Chalmers, April 23, 2007 at 9:18 pm Link to this comment

#65939 by Bill Hart on 4/23 at 6:26 pm

You are only a learner yet, Bill. Thanks for your interest but do you know that you are lecturing some people “older” than yourself in terms of learning?

Report this
MAN's avatar

By MAN, April 23, 2007 at 9:07 pm Link to this comment

YESHUA’S TEACHING TO THIS DAY LET’S SEE…
A.HE IS NOT ALONE IN HIS TEACHING.
B.HE TEACHES WITH OUR FATHER.
C.HE IS NOT A REPUBLICAN OR A DEMOCRAT.
D.HE IS THE LEADER OF A HOUSE OF PRAYER.

Report this

By Maani, April 23, 2007 at 8:14 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Lefty:

Your attempt to argue a positive with a negative is a poor debate tactic.  Indeed, you say, “I think it is far more likely that more people have been murdered by Christians, in the name of Christ, than for any other cause in the history of humanity.”

You “think?”  And this is based on…?  And this tactic is supportable how?

You clearly know little of history if you do not know the numbers of people murdered by Stalin (~70,000,000), Mao (~50,000,000), Hitler (~11,000,000) and Pol Pot (~3,000,000).  These estimates can be found in dozens of books, and on dozens of websites.  Do a little research of your own.

Re the estimate of people killed in the name of “religion” - and not just Christianity, but Judaism and Islam as well - a relatively small number (perhaps 3,000,000) have been killed in this regard since the end of the Inquisition in the early 1500s.  Thus, the overwhelming majority of deaths related to “religion” occurred during the Israelite incursions, the Crusades, the early Muslim wars, and the Inquisitions (i.e., between ~2,000 B.C. and 1500 A.D.).  Given that the population of THE ENTIRE PLANET was less than 200,000,000 in 1 A.D. and ~500,000,000 in 1500 A.D., the high estimate of 50,000,000 killed in the name of religion is actually absurdly high, as it would suggest that one-tenth to one-quarter of the entire population of the earth was killed as a result of religious wars, etc.

Given that Christianity did not spread to the countries with the largest global populations (China, India) - and thus few if any died in those countries “in the name of Christ” - the 50,000,000 figure looks even MORE absurd.

Now it’s your turn.  Provide some real, supportable numbers for your position that more people have been killed in the name of Christ than the ~150,000,000 killed by Stalin, Mao, Hitler and Pol Pot ALONE in a 60-year period.

Peace.

Report this

By Jim Hanley, April 23, 2007 at 7:56 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Maani;
ONE SENTENCE PROVES YOUR MENTAL NUMBNESS!
Adolf Hitler the “Holocaust Slaughterer”
was an avowed Christian and stated it often!

Report this

By Bill Hart, April 23, 2007 at 7:26 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Bottom Line you people have NO HOPE , Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved !! Jesus is the light of the world , you have no light , (can not see TRUTH ) you need the Blood of Jesus , you need the Holy Sprit , You need the WORD , you need to REPENT means to turn around , it means to do about face ... you see after being saved you have lived in both worlds ,, you will be shocked at how GOD has answered prayers , changed lives , been there done it , your type life . GUYS I WAS HARD COMBAT , hell kicking MARINE , trouble was fun ..now it’s SIN .......

Report this

By Douglas Chalmers, April 23, 2007 at 7:24 pm Link to this comment

#65932 by Lefty on 4/23 at 6:04 pm: “...the primitive, tribalistic nature of Christians.  No doubt, Catholics, Mormons and Southern Baptists each think that they are the ones who are saved, and that it is your brand of Christians who are really going to hell….”

Ha ha, yes, and then there is that other religion, politics. Republicanism states that “...the United States is leading a great coalition of countries in a global war on terrorism ........we are bringing terrorists to justice ......we are bringing justice to the terrorists…”. As we know, that too really means that “...if you are not with us, you are against us…”!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8U4FRGcrRg

Report this
MAN's avatar

By MAN, April 23, 2007 at 6:04 pm Link to this comment

IS THAT CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION ~ YOUR FIRED!

Report this
MAN's avatar

By MAN, April 23, 2007 at 3:03 pm Link to this comment

Now ~ can we keep them from shooting themselves while on the premises?

Report this
MAN's avatar

By MAN, April 23, 2007 at 2:57 pm Link to this comment

We sailed off the End of the World the Last time you said that - evenso it has not harmd our sense of humor or view from the Moon!

Report this

By MAN, April 23, 2007 at 2:53 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

We sailed of the end off the World the Last time you told us That ~

Report this

By DAG, April 23, 2007 at 12:44 pm Link to this comment

As I might have mentioned earlier, I am a practicing psycho-therapist.  I am very glad that this discussion and many like it around the globe are going on.  In my practice, over 95% of my clients are dealing with religious issues of which have screwed up their lives!  It is because of them/you (the religious group(s)) that I stay in business and do exceedingly well.  I would be out of business if it weren’t for you.  I have talked to many other therapists and am finding similar percentages, etc.  Oh, I have yet…and I swear on a stack of comic books, ever had to treat a proclaimed Athiest for I have found that they of any group are “thinkers”...they ask questions and have deeper inner lives as a whole.

Report this

By Maani, April 22, 2007 at 9:23 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

All:

I note that Jim, Logician, Mason, Lefty, DAG et al have all avoided responding to my question as to the historical and current culpability of atheism and scientism in the “insanity and disaster” in the world, since they all openly or tacitly seem to believe that ALL of said insanity and disaster is the fault of faith and religion.  Nor have they addressed my statistics re the number of people killed by “religious” people vs the number of people murdered by avowed atheist leaders.

Hmmm…

Peace.

Report this

By Hondo, April 22, 2007 at 7:04 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I read through the first page of the transcript, and I found so many distortions, half-truths, and outright lies that I couldn’t finish reading it. I will list the first 10 lies I found in the interview:
1. “Republicans aren’t concerned about the poor and middle class.” That’s a lie. The Bush tax cuts have created jobs and have created wealth for Americans in every income bracket. Poverty among American citizens is shrinking at a rate unimaginable just a decade ago. Those are the facts.
2. “Republicans don’t care about ecology.” Not true. Most Republicans are good stewards of the Earth. What Republicans do oppose is pseudo-science about the myth of global warming. This false religion is nothing more than secular socialism wrapped up in a green package. The plain old truth is that about half of the world’s scientists believe that global warming is bogus. The other half of the world’s scientists have teamed up with the secular socialist Democrat Party in an attempt to force America to create dangerous public policy based on the lies.
3. Question from above—“How do you stop unwanted pregnancies?” Wow! You wacky Democrats aren’t real knowlegable about human sexuality, are you? The short answer to your question is, “Keep your pants zipped.”
4. “Nobody is for abortion.” This is another lie. Liberal icon Ruth Bader Ginsburg says that abortion is central to a woman’s life. Planned Parenthood gives out T-shirts promoting abortion. The sad truth is that the Democrat Party is just crazy-in-love with the practice of killing unborn babies.
5. “The abortion issue isn’t neat and clean.” That’s another liberal lie. Here’s the truth: Abortion is the murder of an unwanted, unborn baby. You’re either for the murder, or you’re against the murder. It’s just that simple.
6. “The Democrat Party isn’t for same-sex marriage.” That’s a lie. Democrats in all 50 states are fighting tooth-and-nail against state-initiated legislation which would ban same-sex marriage. Sure looks like you’re for same-sex marriage!
7. “Gay marriage is a civil rights issue.” No, it’s not. It’s an issue of a minority of Americans who are seeking to change the definition of the word “marriage” in a way that the majority of Americans find unacceptable. By the way, don’t insult my intelligence by comparing homosexuality to race. One is a condition of birth, and one is a lifestyle choice. You are free to choose a homosexual lifestyle if you want, but don’t force the majority to accept that choice into the mainstream by legally sanctioning it.
8. “Gay marriage is a state issue, not a federal issue.” How absolutely dishonest! If one state sanctions gay marriage, all other states are constitutionally obligated to honor that, and Democrats know it. That’s why a federal constitutional amendment is necessary.
9. Seger lies about the Bible not condemning homosexuality. Look at 1 Corinthians 6:9-18. It’s real clear that homosexuality (and a lot of other behaviors) are sins, and that God can release us from our sins, and forgive us, through the power of the Holy Spirit.
10. The above scripture further bolsters the argument that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice.

Report this

By Jim Hanley, April 22, 2007 at 7:00 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

There Never! Never! Never! was a “Jesus”!
If you have trouble accepting this, you need your head exmined!

After the recent discovery of Essene documents at Kimberth Qumran (Palestine) it has been PROVEN that Jesus was (falsified) the result of falsifiers in the second century!

      Stop promoting a criminal conspiracy!
Santa Clause, “Jesus” and Mickey Mouse are fairytales! They NEVER EXISTED! Religion is Absolute Bigotry! A Contagious Disease!
  Religion is the putrid vomit of criminal minds!
I avoid all contacts with idiots I know to be infected with that horrible infectious ‘Plague-like’ disease called “Religion”. And this goes ‘double in spades’ for any fool who is stupid enough to promote this sort of crap by writing about ‘it’!  The exception being, of course, if the writing exposes the racketeering ‘Ponzi-like’ criminal activities of charlatans who brainwash, mesmerize, indoctrinate, and brand innocent children and fools for the purpose of using them, and abusing them.  There is no excuse for intelligent people to be so ignorant of facts about the charlatan fantasies and make-believe pretenses of religion, that works to undermine the true Democratic principles and unifying influences of our Democratic Society! To promote, propagate, profligate or publish the same pretentious and pompous falsehoods that are the evil tools used by Fallwell, Baker, Haggard, the Pope, and their ilk to brainwash, indoctrinate, brand, and subjugate innocent children and fools for the purpose of using them to gain ever more money, power, and divisive influence, is tantamount to supporting pimping, and prostitution. And because those charlatans use their evil schemes and lies to control, and enslave those misled ‘bovine-like’ advocates by rendering them ‘virtual’ robots that do their bidding; they are criminals, and those supporting them, are criminal cohorts, equally guilty of the crimes they commit against humanity, those fools, and the children. The vast majority of “religious” people were: forced into their ‘belief’! They had no say in the matter, they were imposed upon, brainwashed, and indoctrinated when innocent and defenseless! They were not old enough, wise enough, or informed enough to make a decision, or to determine the value of the information passed to them by elders who, they were taught to obey and were not able to question or contradict! And, generation, upon generation the same methods have been perpetually used and promoted by a big gang of thieves as their victimizing schemes to rob people of their pristine mental facilities and their ability to determine fact from fiction!  Most religious indoctrinated “children” never reach an “age or ability” to recover from the ‘disease’!
‘Religious’ “parents” already mesmerized and ‘indoctrinated’; are the absolute worst ‘indoctrinators’! because, they have first access to the innocents at the earliest age!
Religious parents mind’s are warped by the charlatan’s lies and fairytales, and by passing it on, they are naive, unwitting cohorts of the ‘criminal’ charlatans’; and are abetting the spread of the infectious plague-like disease “Religion”!  These “parents” are criminals! They are guilty of ‘branding’ and ‘warping’ the ‘pristine’ minds of the innocent defenseless children and robbing them of the mental acuity they were born with.
Any person or entity that intentionally supports, promotes or in any other way encourages a criminal enterprise or activity that victimizes innocent children is guilty of a felony and subject to imprisonment!

Report this

By Douglas Chalmers, April 22, 2007 at 6:30 pm Link to this comment

Lefty - “...Ah yes! The ol’ tried and true…...aren’t REAL Christians, tactic.  Primitive, naked, Christian, tribalism at its best…”

You’ve disparaged Christians in your other posts - now you suddenly seem to want to defend them, ha ha.
This must be your “war on terror”, eh? Same dishonest logic and deceitful motivations…....

Report this

By Douglas Chalmers, April 22, 2007 at 12:53 pm Link to this comment

Lefty: “...it’s your religion insists that god is a good, loving and omnipotent god.  Clearly, either your premise is false, or your god is dead….”

He/She/It certainly is “dead” amongst the Southern Baptists! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8U4FRGcrRg

Report this

By Maani, April 22, 2007 at 10:09 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Lefty, Mason et al:

Your admirable passion seems to undo your logic and common sense.

There are dozens of historical figures for whom we have zero “actual” evidence of their existence, and yet we do not doubt their existence because there are ways (scientific, literary, etc.) to make logical, highly accurate claims for them.  Indeed, we have no “direct” evidence of the existence of ANY of the “players” in the “Jesus drama”: Jesus Himself, the apostles, Pontius Pilot, Herod et al.  Rather, what we have are series’ of inferences and mentions in various writings by others.

The accuracy of these mentions is usually determined by a combination of radiocarbon-dating what few ancient documents we do have, and then matching these against copies of other generally accepted earlier documents, and then putting the entire thing in a context surrounded by all the writings, mentions, etc. of these figures throughout history, as far back (and forward) as we can go.  It is a process of “comparison” via scientific, literary and, yes, “best guess” scholarship.

Based on this, there is no serious scholar who doubts the existence of a historical figure named Y’shua (Jesus), or that He was an itinerant preacher during the early part of the first century A.D.

If you want to argue against the specifics of His ministry (i.e., specific words, specific anecdotes, miracles, etc.), you have that prerogative.  And yet dozens, possibly hundreds, of scholars (Christian, Jewish, atheist) would disagree with you even on this, for the reasons given: i.e., that by comparing various historic texts and broadly accepted (and often disparate) history and writings, a somewhat more detailed picture of Y’shua and his ministry is derived.  For example, while some of Jesus’ ideas and philosophies may well have been known (and even written down) prior to His existence, by comparing the many ancient texts and widely accepted writings we do have we know that He almost certainly “put them all together” into a “cohesive” form which gave us, among other things, the Beatitudes.

Simply (and admittedly simplistically) put, we can be fairly certain of Jesus’ existence and at least some of the specifics of His ministry because it did not “spring full-grown from the head of Zeus” in some cabalesque conspiracy, and dozens of documents from dozens of sources - from different regions (often simultaneously) and different time periods - “overlap” with enough accuracy to reveal a fairly accurate picture of at least some, if not much, of His ministry.

If you want to “strip” Jesus of His divinity, His miracles, even some of His actions - and simply see Him as some neat guy with some neat ideas - that’s fine.  But get off this hopelessly absurd - and scientifically and literarily insupportable - notion that He did not exist at all, and that He was not a preacher of some sort in the early first century.  Because if you insist on taking this view, then you must also deny the existence of a host of historical figures (all of whom I am certain you believe existed) for whom little if any “direct evidence” of their existence exists.

Peace.

Report this

By DAG, April 22, 2007 at 9:49 am Link to this comment

I hate to do this folks…but I must.  Zues informed me this morning during prayers that god was dead…yes, dead!  I asked him how I should know this and was told that I would just have to take it on FAITH!  So, there you have it!!!

Report this

By Maani, April 21, 2007 at 9:53 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Lefty et al:

You say the world is “already engulfed in insanity and disaster - arising directly out of the primitive, superstitious belief in supernatural deities.”

As I have now asked at least two others (neither of whom has honored me with a response…), are you suggesting that ALL “insanity and disaster” can be blamed on the faith-based?  And would you say this is true for the entirety of history?

Let’s look at a few facts.

Some here have noted the Crusades, Inquisition, etc. in supporting the notion that religion has caused more war, violence, grief, etc. than anything else.  But what is the truth?

The highest estimate I have ever seen for those who died in all the religious wars, Crusades, Inquisitions, witch burnings, etc. IN THE ENTIRETY OF HISTORY is around 50,000,000.  (Consider that in 1000 A.D. the population of the entire planet was around 300 million.)  Yet in A SINGLE 50-YEAR PERIOD ending in 1980, four men - Stalin, Mao, Hitler and Pol Pot - murdered an estimated 100-150 million people.  Stlin, Mao and Pol Pot were all avowed atheists.  And despite his self-proclaimed Christianity, Hitler was a pagan, not a Christian. (Indeed, he planned to exterminate the Christians immediately after he had finished with the Jews.  In a 1936 speech to the party faithful, he said, “It is through the peasantry that we will finally destroy Christianity.  One can be a German or a Christian; not both.”  As well, “Aryan” is a BLOODLINE, NOT a religion.  And the closest “religion” the Aryans have is a form of paganism.)

Thus, FAR more people have died at the hands of atheists than at the hands of believers.  So who was creating the “insanity and disaster” then?

No, my friend.  While “religion” certainly comes in for its share of blame, it cannot be held accountable for ALL the ills of the world during every period in history.  So let’s be a little more intellectually honest about how we approach this.

Peace.

Report this

By Maani, April 21, 2007 at 9:38 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Mason (Part 1):

I am obviously happy that you (unlike others here) at least admit to the existence of a historical figure called Jesus who lived in the first half of the first century A.D.  This is progress.  (LOL)


However, you apparently have not read “all” my comments as “carefully” as you suggest if you can say that “you have only a smattering of history, you know the names of a few seminal events in the growth of the institutional church but you do not have a grasp of the larger context or of the actual history of the early church.”

As noted in a pervious post, I have studied the history of the early church for over 20 years, having read hundreds of books on the subject by scholars of all stripes.  I only chose the two examples I did because I was not sure how much you (or others) knew about that history, and most people are familiar with at least those two examples.

I am happy to see that you know more history than most.  And yet, you fall into the selfsame trap that the faith-based are often accused of: taking a few facts and fitting them into a preconceived notion of what you BELIEVE occurred.  In this regard, your “history” is no such thing; it does not even rise to the level of “theory,” but rather “hypothesis.”  Indeed, if you and others contend that since I “was not there,” I cannot “know” what Jesus did or didn’t say, etc., then neither can you take a smidgen of provable data, spin a hypothesis around it, and call it “fact,” much less “history.”

Re your comments about Jesus and “saving.”  You make two errors.  First, Jesus’ “saving” refers to “salvation” - a theological concept of the soul - NOT to saving people from harm in the temporal world (though that may occur in some cases as well).  Second, you ask where Jesus was at Blacksburg.  I would like to answer that with another incident.

When the attacks of 9/11 occurred, many people - including some very devout Christians - asked “Where was God” when 3,000 people were murdered?  The best answer I heard to this was from one of my mentoring ministers: “He was saving the other 30,000 people in the complex.”

I admit that this answer rings hollow for those who died.  And that it may even seem “trite” in some sense.  But it does go to showing you that there is more than one way to look at things - particularly with respect to what is sometimes called “the hand of God.”

Peace.

Report this

By Will Hart, April 21, 2007 at 8:14 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

God does not want robots , he creates with some free-will , and will help and save he who accepts his Will, God is before and after time . we live in time God knows all . Our sin is what makes Hell on earth , this makes God Sad yes , But he creates a Way out if You take it.. YOU can tell someone how to get help , EVIL FORCES A MAN TO DO AGANIST GODS WILL and what is best for us .. IT’s not God , but us messing it all up .. THE FULL TRUTH is found in the complete BIBLE , not in parts taken out of context.. God is TRUE LOVE >>> HE CREATED LIFE >>>>>......

Report this
MAN's avatar

By MAN, April 21, 2007 at 7:45 pm Link to this comment

THIS IS NOT A PROBLEM FOR MAN.

Report this

By Douglas Chalmers, April 21, 2007 at 1:33 am Link to this comment

Quote masonmyatt: “...Will Hart, do you ever wonder when your Jesus is going to lift a nail scarred hand to save the thousands of innocent Iraqis being killed by America’s Christian bombs and missiles…?”

Such utter hypocrisy!

Who lifted a hand to save Jesus when he was arrested, falsely tried, bound and imprisoned and then lashed and forced to carry the cross he was eventually nailed to?!?!

There are always plenty of people around to do what is necessary. How many are invalids and cripples that they can do nothing fo others in a time of need? How many actually bother, masonmyatt?

“Where was Jesus in Blacksburg…?” He certainly wasn’t was in the hearts and minds of people who had pushed him out and had closed their thinking against him and his great workable philosophy.

“The Truth that shall make us free…”, as you say, is there for all who want to live by its guidance. If one is too blind to discern between the advice of the wise and the distortions of the knaves and the ravings of the fools, whose fault is that, then?

Report this

By masonmyatt, April 20, 2007 at 7:52 pm Link to this comment

Maani, in response to the comments you directed to me and a few others:

I have read all your comments carefully.  You seem sincere and more thoughtful than many of the right wing nuts in whose camp you sometimes plant your foot.

But, you have only a smattering of history, you know the names of a few seminal events in the growth of the institutional church but you do not have a grasp of the larger context or of the actual history of the early church.

While I do not find the arguments convincing there are numerous secular historians who say that given the subsequent history of the ancient middle east, there may well have been yet another peripatetic prophet called Jesus who over a few years developed an intensely loyal following among the disaffected classes of the Empire.  First century Rome was a political tinder box ready to explode.  Many were openinly talking of revolt against the Roman pigs.  We are told that Jesus spoke of freedom and and new kingdom.  His radical followers interpreted what was essentially a spiritual message as a revolutionary political call to arms.  Theirs was not a spiritual messiah, he was to be a revolutionary leader to free them from Rome.

His death left the movement bereft of its leader.  As had dozens of peoples in the past, these frustrated followers began to embellish the story.  How do we know that?  We know it because virtually every facet of the life and death of the man Jesus was taken from older, long established mythologies.  The Virgin birth, the changing of water into wine, the execution of the savior god and the third day resurection were all very old stories commandeered by the early Christians to give appeal to the movement among the pagan masses.  A true historical Jesus/god surely would have had a unique story.

The movement grew among a desperate people.  Similarly, when Rome itself became desperate, Constantine adopted a battle field Jesus savior to fire up the troops and thus began the collusion between the Empire and the Church.  Two arms of the Roman machine designed to control the masses. 

You allude to several of the books and doctrines and Councils and work to establish some sort of continuem marking a divinely inspired progression of the Christian movement.  Jesus and his teachings were almost immediately subsumed into an assortment of man-made doctrines and top down dogma.  It had nothing to do with Jesus and the Gospels and everything to do with crowd control.

You seem to imply that the persistence and longevity of the Jesus movement is evidence of its validty.  Does not work.  There several extant religions that far predate Christianity. By your reasoning, Hinduism is far more valid that the relatively new Christian movement.

One can choose to believe that the Christian mythology is factual and historical.  But there is no rational defense of that position.  Every time a person of faith succumbs to the urge to prove his god, reason triumphs and the the premise is further weakened.

I wish you well.

Report this

By masonmyatt, April 20, 2007 at 7:08 pm Link to this comment

Will Hart, do you ever wonder when your Jesus is going to lift a nail scarred hand to save the thousands of innocent Iraqis being killed by America’s Christian bombs and missiles?  You say he saves.  What does he save?  Why would a god of love premptively condemn all humankind before they are born to everlasting torture unless they are cowed into mouthing absurdities about virgin births and resurrections?  If he wants to work in mysterious ways let him writea good cheap mystery novel. Okay, we have the book of fairytales called the Bible. 

The Truth that shall make us free should not be written in code if his purpose is for us to know and love him.

Where was Jesus in Blacksburg?  Waiting in the quad to comfort the parents whose lives were destroyed?  You have every right to believe in any hocus pocus you choose but please don’t suggest that Jesus is saving anybody. Or that god cares.  About whom does he care and how is that care manifested?  Oh yeah, he crucified his only son to save us.  He crucified one of the best men who ever lived, or not, when, as god, he/she/it could have waved a magic wand and saved everyone without nails being used.  What kind of crazy ass story is that?

To begin with the whole absurd and uniquely Christian notion that we are born in a state of sin because of what the First Couple supposedly did, 6,000 years ago by your reckoning, is an affront to any god of love and to anyone with even marginal sentience.  What do we need saving from?  We are born without any options on our part.  We , most of us, live our lives doing the damned best we can to survive and find meaning and then we are confronted by a bunch of autocrats telling us we must be saved or be thrown into the eternal pit of fire.  If that is what god is, you are more than welcome to him. .  It is a doctrine established by Holy Mother Church as the moral wing of the Roman government designed to keep all of subjugated to higher authority.

People resort to god anytime they come across something they do not understand.  Read a little history.  For thousands of years western man has been modifying god’s role in the world in direct relation to our rational discoveries of phenomena that were once attributed to god.  There can be nobility in faith regarding spiritual matters.  It does not require us to shun the capacity to reason which was nature’s gift to us in our evolutionary struggle to survive.  Don’t dismiss highly complex issues with some child-like allusion to a mythological super hero of long ago.  If your god saves, then let him get at it.  We have been waiting 2,000 years.

Report this

By Will Hart, April 20, 2007 at 5:04 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

two states took out God , Russia , Red China , 600 Million Plus , killed in 30 years . can you get any more MAD than this , ONLY JESUS CHRIST SAVES > keep your one world sickness .. I got God’s love . and HEAVEN >>>>>>...........

Report this

By Logician, April 20, 2007 at 10:58 am Link to this comment

Re#65143 by John Lowell on 4/19:

Ah, John, ever the surprise, aren’t we?  Now, not only can you speak for EVERY woman who has ever lived, you can now read my mind.  Don’t bother with your grade school republican christian response: “But you don’t have a mind, hehehehehe.”

You stepped up to the plate with a woman-hating statement that “...abortion works out purely and simply as self-serving no matter what the rationale…” (65019 on 4/19)  In #65050 I asked you two questions:

1) What about incest? (It happens, on this planet, all the time.)

2) How do you justify the baby benifiting by being inbred?

Your response:  typical right wing christian:  just don’t answer and insult the questioner, bring in the Nazi references to show you can watch late night schlock TV, look up words on dictionary.com to look educated and finally, the last refuge of the true hypocrite: question the other’s morality by egregiously exaggerated, ignorant claims.

Doesn’t work in the world, doesn’t work here.  Two questions, woman-hater:  answer them. You claim to know the minds of EVERY woman who ever lived by making such a blanket statement.  Your bluff is called: are you man enough to answer, or will you whine like a child yet again?

Tell me why a 12 year old child should bear her father’s child and how this can be called “God’s Blessing.”  Astound us all, John Lowell, we’re all waiting.

Report this

By Jim Hanley, April 20, 2007 at 9:52 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

YOU ARE PROMOTING CRIME!  THERE NEVER!, NEVER!, WAS A JESUS!
Wake up!  Stop promoting that Ponzi-like racketeering scheme that coerces children and fools into performing atrocious acts!  It takes an idiot to equate a question of authenticty about a conjectured, fantasy-figure of some criminal charlatan or fool’s warped mind, a so called “Jesus” “Creator-God”; with the factual historical evidence of real people!  For, even if the evidence for all were equally difficult to ascertain or questionable, the fact that simple mesmerized, indoctrinated people, without any basis in fact, or reason, surrender their innocent children into the hands of the lying charlatan criminals who use, enslave, and abuse them, while forcing them to kneel in subservience to the meaningless, fraudulent, fictional, so-called “Creator-God”; none of this absurdity takes place or is part of the mere allowing the likelihood that other non-deified ‘historical figures’ once lived!

Report this

By Maani, April 20, 2007 at 9:40 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Logician, Mason, DAG, Jim et al:

Keyser Soze said, “The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist.”  To this we must now add your contention that, “The greatest trick Jesus ever pulled was convincing the world He DID exist.”

Although I am admittedly breaking my own promise (and VFTW will have cause to be angry with me…), I really must ask: If you truly believe there was no such person as Jesus, exactly when and how do you believe this “mnassive conspiracy” about Him began?

Let me give you some parameters.  First, the oldest actually existing, carbon-dated documents referring to Jesus are at very latest within the first two centuries A.D. - i.e., well before the Council of Nicea (325 A.D.).  Thus, it was not the Council that created the conspiracy.  Second, Clement of Rome refers to some of the New Testament documents as early as the first half of the first century A.D.  Thus, Jesus’ name and ministry were already well-known by 100 A.D.  So it was not Clement who created the conspiracy.

Given the power of Rome and its disdain for any sect preaching a different god than Caesar (which is why they hated the Jews so much), please explain when and how the “Jesus conspiracy” began, by whom (even speculatively), and why Rome did not completely destroy it well before it “got legs”; i.e., how it made it all the way from the middle of the first century to the Council of Nicea in 325 without being squelched by Caesar.

Peace.

Report this

By a voice from the wilderness, April 20, 2007 at 9:02 am Link to this comment

For those who might be interested in a comparison of GWB’s policies (and by extension those of the CR) with the values contained in Jesus’ teachings, you might want to check out:
http://religiousleft.bmgbiz.net/bushandjesus.html

If we on the left want to communicate OUR values to people who vote their values, the following is vital reading:
* George Lakoff’s “Don’t Think of an Elephant” and its more detailed cousin “Moral Politics”

Additional readings of importance on this general topic include:
* John Dean’s “Conservatives Without Conscience” (and if you’ve never read Stanley Milgrom’s seminal “Obedience and Authority.”)
Jimmy Carter’s “Our Endangered American Values”
Sen. John Danforth’s “Faith and Politics”
Kevin Phillips’ “American Theocracy”
* Jim Wallis’ “Why the Right Gets it Wrong and the Left Doesn’t Get It” and “God’s Politics”
*Madeleine Albright’s “The Mighty and the Almighty”

In looking at how to communicate with the CR, one final thought is instructive:
“Values are faithfully applied to the facts before us, while ideology overrides whatever facts call theory in to question.”  (Barak Obama, “The Audacity of Hope”, p. 59) 

So, it seems that if there is to be hope for the progressive movement, we need to reach those independents and centrists until the CR self-destructs and the rubber band returns to some sense of equilibrium.


Maani,
So as not to clutter up this thread with further theological discussion, I’ve emailed Peter and asked him to share my email address with you.

Report this

By Douglas Chalmers, April 20, 2007 at 4:52 am Link to this comment

“...The entire planet is already engulfed in insanity and disaster - arising directly out of the primitive, superstitious belief in supernatural deities…”

No, Lefty, not the entire planet - that is only how it seems to the “coalition of the willing” countries and that is largely because their media panders to portraying that kind of image. Apart from a few countries where the USA should be helping instead of hindering, the rest of the world goes about its business far happier than the good ol’ boys back home.

Any “insanity and disaster” is a direct result of the mental and spiritual deficiency of those in the Bush administration and the citizens to weak or too blind to recognize what is happening and to stop it. That is the USA’s own problem. As the old Chinese saying suggests, Americans should sweep their own doorsteps first before telling everybody else what their deficiencies are.

Report this

By masonmyatt, April 20, 2007 at 3:45 am Link to this comment

What an odd group of statements to have been generated by a rather mild-mannered, superficial article declarting that the Democrats may have found their “christian” heritage at last.  I do not see any reason to engage the debate over the historical Jesus.  There simply is NO historical Jesus even if there was a Jesus.  Sorry, people of faith but we know little more about Josephus than we do Homer and we don’t believe his myths.

I do not have any reason to believe there was a historical figure as described in the Gospels.  I am not christian in any conceivable sense other than the fact that I subscribe to what we are told was Jesus’ teachings about war and peace, caring for our fellow humans and loving one another—-if we can.  Those values require no god, no afterlife as incentive and do not have anything to do with the supernatural.  But, can I PROVE there was no Jesus?  No, I cannot.  Can I PROVE the bible is NOT the inerrenat, inspired word of god?  Yes!  Unless you want to think of god as a mental case bigger than any other creation of fiction.  The bible is replete with outright contradictions, ahistorical stories and myths that predate the bible by thousands of years. 

The fundamentalist is asked to believe that the god of the Book of Job is the same god as their sweet baby Jesus.  Absurd on its face.  That reference alone—-and one can find many others—is a clear indication that the bible is the story of the evolution of a people’s concept of god.  By their own definitions, god is supposed to be eternal, changeless and constant.  The gods of the bible are not that.

However, we do have a nation of 300,000,000, a vast majority of whom claim to be Christian and who claim to be followers of the “word.”  Let’s take them on their own terms.  Inspired or not, what do the Gospels tell us about the teachings of Jesus?  The Sermon on the Mount comes closer than any other passage in providing a summary of the philosophy of the mythological Jesus.  I think the point of the article is that a comparison of the political platforms of the two major parties can easily be compared to the values/ethics extolled in the gospels. 

The Christian Right almost NEVER refers to anything Jesus is alleged to have said or taught.  Where is their concern for the poor, the disfranchised, the sick, the chidren and all the rest we are told to love and care for.  Where is their advocacy of peace?The Jesus of the gospels NEVER mentions homosexuality, tax cuts, global warming or the right of every nitwit with a hand to carry a gun.  Jesus does not mention stem cell research and abortion.  What scripture do they reference?  None. 

Whatever thier true motives may be, the Democrats do advocate programs that directly address the concerns of the biblical Jesus.  I am not arguing that those teachings are sacred or even right, for that matter.  My point is that the people on the Right who claim to adore Jesus and to hold his word as sacred, do not govern based on those supposed truths.  The Democrats, whether they are believers or not, have long missed the opportunity to publicly connect their humanitarian programs to the teachings of Jesus and with an electorate composed of nearly 90% self-styled christians, that is politically foolish.  Sometimes you have to take people where they are and take them as far as you can.  (I was a teacher.)  Americans do not appear ready to face life without resorting to myth and the supernatural.  We cannot “argue” them away from that anytime soon.  So, get back on that donkey and ride it to the WH.  God won’t give a damn and the nation will be so much more honorable than this neo-con travesty stupidly led by a man who claims to be getting his politics directly from the voice of god.  Jesus H. Christ.

Report this

By Will hart, April 19, 2007 at 9:00 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Looking at comments, I see that everyone is missing the main point. LKook at forest , but not see the tree . Meaning government can not save , Dems. & Reps. can not save , college or education can not , the computer or high tect. can not , money or power can not save ,, churches or membership can not . THE ANSWER to our problems is the Blood of JESUS CHRIST . (GOD) as he showed him self in flesh, HIS SPIRIT is only giver of TRUTH > .. HE will return soon , and only HE is GOD CREATOR OF all. the best we can do is read his WORD , PRAISE AND THANK him. HE answers prayers , changes lives for better as none other can ,, HE is JESUS the CHRIST !

Report this

By Will Hart, April 19, 2007 at 8:23 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

SIRS, I can see that everone is missing the main point , look at forest , but not see the tree . The government can not save you , the Dems. or Reps. can not save you , college or education can not save you , money or power can not save you , computers or high tect. can not save you . YOU HAVE NO HOPE , ONLY the BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST SAVES , HE IS GOD ( JESUS CHRIST ) as God showed himself in flesh . HE IS CREATOR OF ALL , HE ANSWERS PRAYERS , HE IS REAL , HE IS THE ONLY GOD ...... HE CHANGES LIVES for the better , HE WILL come soon , HE will correct all problems . ONLY THE SPIRIT OF GOD GIVES TRUTH , not some school , only the SPIRIT shows the THUTH . Read his word , PRAISE AND THANK him ... THE BLOOD OF JESUS IS YOUR ONLY ANSWER .

Report this

By Maani, April 19, 2007 at 7:18 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

All:

In keeping on point, the following paragraph appears in an article in the current issue of Harpers.  It is Lewis Lapham writing about Arthur Schlesinger Jr., the eminent historian who passed away in January.  The paragraph has some relevance to the present discussion:

“The separations of the then from the now produce ‘delusions of omnipotence and omniscience,’ which Arthur diagnosed as the illness afflicting the Bush Administration and one likely to lead to the death of the American idea unless treated with the ‘antidote’ of history.  Children unfamiliar with the world in time become easy marks for the dealers in fascist politics and quack religions.  The blessed states of amnesia cannot support either the hope of individual liberty or the practice of democratic self-government.”

Comments?

Peace.

Report this

By Maani, April 19, 2007 at 7:10 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Doug:

I must say I am happily surprised to hear you support that position.  (I am certain it comes with caveats, but I can accept that.  LOL.)

Lefty:

I think it is clear that Doug meant MORE “insanity and disaster” than already exists.

In this regard, would you care to answer my question to Logician: Do you believe that if all faith-based people and all belief in supernatural deities, etc. suddenly disappeared from the world, then earth would somehow become a utopia?  I.e., are you suggesting that faith/religion is the cause of ALL “evils” in the world, and that its removal would somehow eliminate evil, hatred, violence, greed, war, suffering, poverty, disease, hunger, income inequality, etc.?

As a related aside, one cannot argue the truth of Darwinian theory on the one hand, and then suggest that “evil” - and the results of evil: violence, war, hatred, intolerance, etc. - does not exist independently of faith/religion.  After all, not all murderers are believers; just look at Virginia Tech; Cho was a rabid atheist…like yourself.  (Should we be worried about YOU then?  LOL.)

Think carefully about what you are suggesting by your comment.  I think that if you consider it more carefully, you will find that your position is not entirely supportable.

VFTW:

As noted, as much as I would love to continue them, discussions on the particulars of strictly theological issues do not seem appropriate here. Perhaps there is another thread where such issues can be continued.  (I would give you my personal e-mail address, but the last thing I want to invite is ranting e-mail from Logician…LOL.)

Peace.

Report this

By a voice from the wilderness, April 19, 2007 at 5:26 pm Link to this comment

Maani,

I’d like to return to the idea of dogma as a follow-on to faith—and whether it is part and parcel of institutionalized religion or independent of it.

The denomination of my youth, at least as I understood it, claimed not to require members to subscribe to any particular dogma.  There were shared beliefs to be sure but no creeds as tests of faith, and each person was challenged with the responsibility of seeking his or her own salvation.  Granted that my own path has led me away from what I now think of as the dogma in those shared beliefs.  But I’m wondering if you and I mean different things when we use the term DOGMA.

In an earlier post you cautioned against throwing the baby out with the bath water when addressing the lack of primary source material.  I didn’t intend to imply that there was no useful material at all.  And I agree that the more universal the mention in the Gospels, the more reliably they reflect Jesus’ words and thoughts.  I plead guilty to tossing much of Paul as I view his preaching as foundational to the hierarchical thinking that characterizes the institutional church.  I also plead guilty to being what might be accurately characterized as a secular Christian, although I share much with what you call primitive Christians.

Report this

By Douglas Chalmers, April 19, 2007 at 2:58 pm Link to this comment

Quote Maani - “...There are some who take the position that, for all its missteps and misguided people, faith/religion has actually served largely (though clearly not completely) as a bulwark AGAINST the “evils” of the world….”

Maani, I can assure you that if “...all faith-based people and all belief in supernatural deities, etc. suddenly disappeared from the world…”, it would be only a matter of minutes before the entire planet was engulfed in insanity and disaster!

The more enlightened ones do hold the world back from the worst consequences of its own actions. A moment’s thought on this by someone who has studied metaphysics should make that abundantly clear as incontrovertible fact.

The psychological and emotional state of the majority of humans (EQ) never mind their abject spiritual dormancy (SQ) is such that some more sensitive and aware souls are absolutely necessary in the overall mix or we would not be able to exist.

Report this

By Maani, April 19, 2007 at 10:55 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Logician:

It does not surprise me that you are a Harris…acolyte.  (LOL).  What may surprise you is that I agree with at least four of Harris’ main premises:

-That religion has no place in secular politics
-That religion has no place in secular classrooms
-That faith-based people should be held to account for their actions, and not their verbally expressed beliefs
-That the history of religion is filled with hatred, violence, manipulation, corruption, etc.

The only major area of Harris’ views with which I disagree is the religion/science debate: while I absolutely agree that religion has no place in science (and that those who still reject such clear scientific truths as a 13+ billion-year-old universe, evolution, geology, etc. must give up their ignorance), the reverse is also true: that science has no place in religion; i.e., vis-a-vis “faith” and the personal moral constructs that derive from it, as long as those constructs are not foist upon others.

What I do NOT agree with is that there is any reason to “throw out the baby with the bathwater”; as noted in my last post, faith/religion has arguably done as much good as it has “evil.”  Indeed, even Harris has become more open-minded on this issue than you seem to be.

Finally, I want to ask you a question that has been asked of Harris et al: Do you believe that if all faith-based people and all belief in supernatural deities, etc. suddenly disappeared from the world, then earth would somehow become a utopia?  That is, are you suggesting that faith/religion is the cause of ALL “evils” in the world, and that its removal would somehow eliminate evil, hatred, violence, greed, war, suffering, poverty, disease, hunger, income inequality, etc.?

There are some who take the position that, for all its missteps and misguided people, faith/religion has actually served largely (though clearly not completely) as a bulwark AGAINST the “evils” of the world.  Although I am guessing that you would laugh at that suggestion, I would be interested in your response.

Peace.

Report this

By vanjejo, April 19, 2007 at 6:03 am Link to this comment

*opinion*

If it takes a purple draped unicorn to tickle your fancy - heck do it. We have hand to head combat, daring snake handlers, robed incense burning, rapping-hoochie blowing-capitalist-gnostic -mind reading-skin covered-nudist-alien God seeking and even old drive in theatre “christians”.....

One common bond - God.  Does he mind our oddities and distortions?  Does OUR reaction and interpretation justify sarcastic denial of history?
The bible is as much a historical journal as today’s emails - missing pieces, twisted verses, lost sections, altered facts - but it does exist and can only be rebutted and defended with what we have to really look at.

I have encompassed a span of levels of “God”  in my lifetime.  A constant thought evaluation which I have finally concluded is basically good and exactly what I need to keep worldly distractions from setting me off course.  I’ve ranged from agnostic thinking to bible thumping healing.  It’s ALL the same in the end, a constant thought of why, when, where - a personal level of communication. 

We - as humans just can’t get along.  Someone along the line always wanted their way.  They diversified and changed the rules to suit themselves.  We have the King of England making a whole new religion so he could break marriage laws and still be a “good christian”.  We have preachers spouting anti-abortion but paying for step-daughters to abort, we have them spouting the evils of sex beyond marriage yet they are being arrested picking up hookers on street corners.  It’s all spoof - but is GOD? 

Lets hope that the sheep will not be held totally responsible for the sheperds lack of “accountability”.  I’m just going to do it MY way.

Report this

By Logician, April 18, 2007 at 11:33 pm Link to this comment

Re#64870 by DAG on 4/18:

Thanks, DAG.  Have been immersed in christian, jewish, muslim, et al mythology for over 42 years and didn’t start associating with atheists/agnostics until last year. 

What strikes me is the true spirit of inquiry in these people.  They really do question everything and everyone, even those they agree with. No point is too small, no conjecture or claim too spurious to examine in minute detail.

But I’m too much like Sam Harris.  While I question everything and everyone also, I have no more patience with the empire building religions and am sick of their proselytizers.  These intolerant hate mongers have been given a free ride for too long and it’s time to take them to task for the hideous evil they have perpetrated upon mankind.

“Faith” is not a good thing, it is deluding and destructive.  To believe in a mythological character created to control the ignorant and repress the free is anti-human and it needs to be stopped.

So, would the mythological Jesus ride a donkey?  Heck, yes.  And that donkey would have a purple coat and a horn growing out of its head.  Why not?  If you can make up a saviour god, why not a purple unicorn donkey?  Why wouldn’t Jesus be democratic? Why not republican?  Since he’s make believe, you can make him do whatever you want.

And if you believe in Jesus, why not believe in purple unicorn donkeys? 

Hee haw, y’all!

Report this

By Maani, April 18, 2007 at 8:01 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

VFTW:

Thank you for your kind comments.  To even be spoken of in the same sentence as Rev. Wallis is an honor, as he is one of my heroes.

You are right that most people associate evangelicals (and, indeed, much of Christianity as a whole) with Robertson, Dobson, the Christian Right and organized, mainstream, hierarchical “religion.” And because the CR has successfully dominated the “public eye” (media) for so long, this is not entirely surprising.  But there IS a growing moderate (if that is the right word) evangelical movement, one for which global warming, poverty, hunger, income inequality, war and other issues are FAR more important than abortion, homosexuality, etc.  As well, these moderates believe strongly in the separation of church and state.

Hopefully, as voices like Wallis, Forbes and Seger (among others)become more prevalent - as people see Christians actually “walking the talk” and focusing on truly important issues - some of the “stain” will disappear.  This, of course, remains to be seen.

Re Dawkins, Harris, Dennett, Maher et al, their extremist (and often inflammatory) polemics are, sadly, a necessary counterpoint to the extremes that the Christian Right (nd fundamentalist Islam) have inserted into politics and the public sphere.  As I have said, when you stretch a rubber band all the way to one end and let go, it shoots to the other end before resting in the middle.  Dawkins et al are the other extreme of the rubber band that the Christian Right has been pulling on for some time, and fundamental Islam has begun pulling more recently.

Re faith/religion, I, too, know many self-proclaimed Christians who are “fearful, filled with hate, and self-centered.”  (And those are the GOOD things about them!  LOL.)  And I know atheists who are more “Christian” than many Christians I know; who truly live Jesus’ teachings of love, peace, humility, forgiveness, compassion, patience, charity, selflessness, service, justice, truth.  In this regard, as Wallis (among others) likes to say: faith/religion does not have a monopoly on morality or goodness.  I second that emotion.

Re dogma/doctrine, what I think I said (or at least what I meant) was that there is a PLACE in faith for dogma/doctrine.  And so there is.  But faith must come first, and doctrine must be learned such that it “tempers” one, and does not add to (or worse, create) fears or negative attitudes or approaches. If one truly learns, understands and follows Jesus’ teachings - those attributed specifically to Him (i.e., the 11 precepts noted above) - it would seem unlikely that one’s dogma would be a “negative” contribution to one’s faith.

Peace.

Report this

By MaanI, April 18, 2007 at 6:37 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Logician:

Actually, given that we are in cyberspace, how do I know that YOU exist?  You could just as easily be a computer construct (a virus?  a worm?) programmed to troll various websites and spread venom, vitriol, vituperation, intolerance and hatred wherever you go.  Indeed, unless you can “prove” to me that YOU exist, I will proceed as if you ARE such a construct…LOL.

Seriously, setting aside that even Doug (who seems to be in agreement with much of your position) believes that you have taken this discussion pretty far afield, why are you so myopically focused on the existence or non-existence of Jesus, and on the existence (or not) of “non-scientific” phenomena?  Is that the only subject that interests you?  After all, if you are not interested in discussing the topic at hand - since (to paraphrase you) “it is silly to even suggest the existence of Jesus much less how he might have felt about current politics” - why not go to another thread where you can debate the existence of Jesus to your heart’s content?

Perhaps truthdig will publish something for which this debate would be appropriate, and I would be more than happy to continue it there.  But in the interest of remaining on point - and not boring everyone else who wants to discuss the topic of the thread - I will, refrain from any further debate on this issue.  Feel free to laud it as a “victory” for yourself, if you wish (“See?  S/he couldn’t provide the proof I asked for, so s/he ran away!”).

Finally, I should note that your harping on the Crusades, Inquisition, etc. is pretty absurd, since those things occurred hundreds of years ago.  In this regard, Christianity has been quite “docile” for hundreds of years; i.e., it has engaged in NO violence, and has actually been at the forefront of almost every major social movement in the U.S., including abolition (yes, some Christians used their Bible to prove the “rightness” of slavery, but others saw the error in that and created the underground railroad), the child labor movement, the suffrage movement (led by Northeastern Protestant women) and the civil rights movement (led largely by Southern Christians, including MLK).  As well, the Red Cross and Salvation Army (for any minor criticisms one might have of them) have continued to provide aid re global suffering of all types, WITHOUT regard to race, creed, religion or even sexual orientation.  As well, although the RCC was certainly tacitly complicit during WWII for not speaking out more vociferously against Hitler, the Protestants in Germany, Austria and elsewhere were harboring Jews and helping them escape.

...Peace.

Report this

By DAG, April 18, 2007 at 5:32 pm Link to this comment

Re #64860 by Logician

As a former “man of the cloth,” I for one am glad that this discussion is going on.  I attended seminary many years ago and co-pastored a church in Texas but got out when I finally saw the truth.  I am one who is always asking questions of everyone out there, including myself.  I agree with Sam Harris that we need to take the religious sector out of this protected realm they have enjoyed for so many years of not confronting them (the christians) on their belief systems.  A former poster has made some declarations (please reference #64789) and should be held accountable to prove them.  Until he does, as far as I’m concerned, the conversation with him can’t go on.  WE all need to hold him accountable to his assertions.  In a court of law, he wouldn’t be allowed to do this.

Report this

By Logician, April 18, 2007 at 4:15 pm Link to this comment

Re#64858 by Douglas Chalmers on 4/18:

Oops!  I stand corrected.  Please inform Her Nubian Self I am indeed penitent!

Back to topic, I would agree, ‘christians’ have indeed been manipulated into following the rich and powerful.  How else could they BE christians?  They are but malleable fools easily bent toward any end those in power chose.  As for values…oh boy!  Slavery, intolerance for any other god-view, why, any value you want can be squeezed out of that egregiously hateful book.  Just name it, christians will follow. That’s why the discussion about a mythological figure riding a donkey or an elephant so pisses some of the other readers off. Truly, what does it matter as long as the fools do what their hypocritical ‘spiritual’ leaders say? 

Ya got me there, DC, I DON’T know if Maani is a man.  I just don’t normally run into women who brag themselves up so much, so I made a fatal assumption.  As for others being “disappointed” in the “tone” of the discussion, I wonder if they were “disappointed” by the “tone” of the inquisition, by the strident “tone” of the whole-hearted endorsement of slavery by the “christian” church, or the shrieking fear-filled “tone” of denying completely normal human beings civil rights because they have different sex drives?

Later, DC, and hey, DO let Her Nubian Self know I am really, really sorry!

Report this

By Douglas Chalmers, April 18, 2007 at 3:34 pm Link to this comment

Quote: *a voice from the wilderness - “...I’m disappointed to read how the tone of the discussion has changed in the past day or so….”

And quote: *Logician - “...The facts are either the bible is the inspired word of god him/her/it self or it is not….”

Well, apart from the fact that not only is “god” a woman but she is black, it would be nice to maintain some direct relevance with the original topic:-

Re “...Democrats than Republicans, how Christians have been manipulated into compromising their values…”

By the way, Logician, how do you know that Maani is a man?

Report this

By J. H., April 18, 2007 at 3:11 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

THE ORIGIN OF NATURE
  Beginning is never found but keep an ear to the ground
  Accept the word of a friend there’s no beginning or end
Nature origin for instance is ceaselessness Existence
JH 8/29/06
  The worst form of child abuse is warping of the mind!
——————————————————

THERE NEVER!, NEVER!, WAS A JESUS! YOU ARE PROMOTING CRIME! 
Wake up!  Stop promoting that Ponzi-like racketeering scheme that coerces children and fools into performing atrocious acts! 
It takes an idiot to equate a question of authenticty about a conjectured, fantasy-figure of some criminal charlatan or fool’s warped mind, a so called “Jesus” “Creator-God”; with the factual historical evidence of real people!  For, even if the evidence for all were equally difficult to ascertain or questionable, the fact that simple mesmerized, indoctrinated people, without any basis in fact, or reason, surrender their innocent children into the hands of the lying charlatan criminals who use, enslave, and abuse them, while forcing them to kneel in subservience to the meaningless, fraudulent, fictional, so-called “Creator-God”; none of this absurdity takes place or is part of the mere allowing the likelihood that other non-deified ‘historical figures’ once lived!

Report this

By Logician, April 18, 2007 at 2:39 pm Link to this comment

Re#64778 by Maani on 4/18

Please learn to read.  Nowhere did I call you a “Bible-thumping, narrow-minded, gay-bashing, creationist, anti-evolution, theocratic-minded member of the Christian Right.”  If that’s how you feel, too bad, so sad.

All I asked for is scientific proof for an extraordinary claim. The best (only) proof you can offer is   Shakespeare?!  Does that mean Shakespeare is a prophet?  If so, what about the visions of “A Midsummer Night’s Dream?”  Lord, what fools these mortals be!  What YOU fail to understand is if you wish to pass yourself off as a renaisance man (gosh, you read books and everything, right?  I mean, like, do you know Stephen Hawking?) who knows science as well as religion you would do well to reconcile the facts of the matter.

The facts are either the bible is the inspired word of god him/her/it self or it is not.  If it is, then it’s precepts must be followed.  If it isn’t (which ANY intellect past the developmental age of 12 KNOWS) it’s time to send it to the trash heap of the other religions.  You know: Zeus, Thor, all those other gods you and I don’t believe in.  I really don’t care where or how you were raised. You are making claims that are based upon poorly translated plagiarized fairy tales from other sects and cultures.  How scientific is that?  Actually, a better phrase is: how stupid is that?  Very!

Nope, big guy, you pass no test, in spite of your voluminous self promotion.  You give no references to other boobs who believe the Eusebius forgery, you give in fact, no references of any “respected” scholars stupid enough to believe ANY aspect of the plagiarized fairy tales of the NT.  But most importantly, you give NO PROOF of Jesus.  I know, you know, we ALL know why: you can’t prove what didn’t exist.

So, oh most exalted “straight-A” “honors” reader of “hard science” books, give me what I asked for: scientifically verifiable evidence a magical being named Jesus existed and performed deeds that are absoltutely IMPOSSIBLE and I will shut my mouth.  Otherwise poser, why would you chose to follow and teach such filthy tripe?  Why not, oh say, the three little pigs?  Or Curious George?  Or, dare I say it, Barney?  “I love you, you love me, we’re all one big family…”

Peace, Maani, peace unlike the screaming hate of christianity, islam, judaism, etc. Hey, I didn’t invent the inquistion, jihads, etc.  It took religion to do that crap.  So just exactly whose peace are you babbling about?

Report this

By a voice from the wilderness, April 18, 2007 at 2:00 pm Link to this comment

I’m disappointed to read how the tone of the discussion has changed in the past day or so. 

Maani, thank you for sharing some of your background, your beliefs and your current activities with us.  It helps to better understand both your comments and the extent to which you are at odds with so many of your evangelical colleagues.

Unfortunately, most of us identify the evangelical movement with the likes of Pat Robertson and James Dobson than with people like Jim Wallis and you.

The rigidity and anger of the former are matched by that of the likes of Richard Dawkins and others who rail against all religion as a matter of principle.  In most cases, their tone cuts off discussion and prevents even “agreeing to disagree.”

Questioning has always been part of my spiritual journey.  In truth, it was as much a part of my religious as my secular education.  I’ve long noticed an apparent disconnect between what I saw as the importance of Jesus’ teachings and the practices of many of his followers.  The causes of that disconnect are many and include on the one side our human imperfection (including our tendency to take the path of least resistance, particularly when it challenges the status quo) and the self-serving need of the institutional church to preserve its authority, power and even its relevance. 

For me, it is nearly irrelevant whether Jesus existed as a historical figure, as are, as I mentioned in an earlier post, the miracles attributed to him.  Should someone be able to “prove” that the story of his life is a myth, it would not negate the merit of the values he represents as the key to human happiness.

For those of us who question the existence of an after-life, “heaven” is right here and now—the product of a life lived in accord with Jesus’ values.  Likewise, “hell” on earth is equally possible when selfish and hateful thoughts drive our actions. 

I know some people who call themselves religious who are fearful, filled with hate, and self-centered.  It is obvious to me that their faith has not brought them anything that remotely resembles peace.  Yet, they are convinced that they are “saved.”  I also know agnostics and even atheists but whose lives are modeled after Jesus’ teachings—not because they believe that will bring them any sort of eternal reward, but because they understand it will make the world a better place. 

I suppose that faith brings peace to some people.  Religion can help in that process, although it is nowhere near certain.  Maani, you mentioned the importance of dogma and doctrine.  It seems to me that those elements are connected to religious institutions.  While there are shared practices and “T” Traditions across sectarian boundaries, it was and continues to be the “t” traditions that cause so much heartburn.  The greatest “T” shared Tradition is bound up in the concept of the Golden Rule— one shared by all religious traditions and by humanists as well. 

Whether we worship in a church, a mosque, a temple, in nature, or not at all, most people understand that there are some universal truths that help us get along better with those we share the planet with.

Report this

By DAG, April 18, 2007 at 12:23 pm Link to this comment

Response to #64792

You have four different bibles (books) that tell you same sex relations are wrong.  As a practicing therapist, since you are enjoying same sex relations, my advice to you is to throw away those books!  I have many more books that say it is o.k.  You don’t have to feel bad about this.  Come on guy, open your mind and see what life is all about.

Report this

By Beau Alford, April 18, 2007 at 10:24 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I have four different Bibles of different religions, and looking at the Koran,and studing Mohammed the man and his faith , by Tor Andrae…  The bible ver all say it is sick, and against God to have same sex relations….. Did I miss something there… Or is it like my old French girlfriend use to tell me THAT AMERICANS are stupid, they don’t know how to read. That is what the LOGO’s want a stupid group of “its ok if it makes you happy” for get about GODS WORD.

Report this

By DAG, April 18, 2007 at 10:10 am Link to this comment

Response to #64644 (Maani)
You say “...there is nary a single respected scholar…who questions the existence of…jesus”  Would you please take the time to reference these scholars?  Then, you go on to say that “...most scholars now believe that at least one of the two mentions by josephus were accurate…”  Please reference this.  It would also be nice if you would say what their preferences are:  religious OR secular.  Thanks!

Report this

By Maani, April 18, 2007 at 9:49 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Logician:

Your anger and hatred are palpabale - and yet you speak of “peace?”  Again, you know nothing of me, my ministry or what I do or believe.  And yet you would automatically label me a “Bible-thumping, narrow-minded, gay-bashing, creationist, anti-evolution, theocratic-minded member of the Christian Right.”  Your stereotyping and broad-brushing seem to know no bounds.

As well, you deliberately twisted my offer of info about myself into a sarcastic rejoinder.  And, again, you talk of “peace?”

Sadly, this says far more about you than it does about me.  Indeed, I dare say that my background in science is also far greater than yours.  Not only was I not always a minister, but I was an atheist (okay, agnostic…) until my late teens; i.e., I was not “raised” in faith.  Indeed, I was raised by two rabidly atheist Ph.D.-level college professors (one a scientist) in a strictly rational, scientific, empiric environment (and, no, I had no problem with this).  I was a straight-A student in math and science, both “honors” level.  I remained a straight-A student in science through college.  It is almost a certainty that I have read more “hard science” than you have over a period of more than 30 years, including all areas of physics, biology and geology.  I am well aware of the scientific method, theories and proofs.

And although I have no particular reason to explain myself to you, I believe in the Big Bang, Darwinian theory, and the separation of church and state; I am pro-choice, show the same love to gays as I do to straights, support stem cell research, and do not believe in teaching creationism in the schools.  I do not have a congregation (I am an indepdenent minister), so I do not “lead” any “sheep.”  My primary ministries are outreach and advocacy for the homeless, counseling, and teaching.  I detest the so-called Christian Right (which, like the Moral Majority before it, is nethier), and do not subscribe to its narrow, unloving, unforgiving and un-Christian positions.  And I do not support organized, maintream, hierarchical “religion.”

So, do I pass your test?

What you fail to understand is that one can hold all of the above positions and still be a believer. Indeed, you seem to forget that the very definition of “faith” is “belief in things not seen, and certainty of things hoped for.”  True, this is not exactly “scientific.”  But it does not have to be.  As Hamlet says, “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”  In this regard, it would seem that it is YOU, not me, who is “closed-minded.”

As for “peace,” you clearly have a long way to go before your use of that word has any meaning.

Peace.

Report this

By Logician, April 18, 2007 at 5:54 am Link to this comment

Re#64644 by Maani on 4/17


Words, words, words.  Let it be known here, now, from this day forward, Maani ‘evangelical minister:’ I will submit to anything you say if you can give me one piece of actual, scientifically verifiable evidence that a Jesus existed who performed deeds that have NEVER been done ANYWHERE else at ANY time in human history.  Note: that filthy book of poorly plagiarized lies called the bible is proof of nothing, so don’t even try quoting it as a source of anything, okay?

My position, poser, is this: NO ONE has EVER: walked on water, changed water into wine, brought back to life putrefied corpses, etc, etc, etc. In science, (you know, that nasty word that shows posers like yourself how incredibly deluded you really are) incredible claims, indeed ANY claims, must have PROOF. 

You claim: a magical being from beyond our own dimension came here and performed deeds no one else has ever repeated.  You have NO evidence, NOTHING, in fact to support ANY aspect of your claim.  You base (and waste) your life in support of this insanity and try to tell others how to waste theirs as well.

If you are as conversant of history as you claim, you are no doubt aware that the myth of Jesus has ABSOLUTELY no original aspects to it but the name of Jesus.  Other, older sects and cultures have all the same elements: walking on water, born of a virgin, even being crucified on a cross.  So how is it that only YOUR take on these myths is correct and THEIRS is not?

When a person with a claim has NO evidence and cannot therefore prove their claim, science leaves them in the dustbin of obscurity where they belong.  For example, the idiot alchemists who claimed they could change lead into gold if they could just remember where they laid the formula….

By your own admission: “...most scholars now believe that at least one of two mentions by Josephus were accurate…”  “Most?”  “Believe?”  Either it is a forgery or it isn’t.  Anyway, as stated, it’s mere words, Maani.  You, not I, are making absolutely amazing claims.  Either they are true or they are not.  Prove them or go back to the sheep you fleece and stay out of the arena of reason where you clearly do not belong.

As previously stated, there is no real difference between dems and reps; no one achieves the level of politicican these crooks do without selling out to the worst interests in society, so, perhaps Jesus (had the myth been real) really would have ridden a donkey on his way to fleecing the flock while telling them how he loved them, much like his church does even today…

How about some good old church peace then, Maani, the kind where gays were gutted in the afternoon sun?  That “real” enough for ya?

Report this

By Maani, April 17, 2007 at 5:58 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Logician:

Since we do not know each other, it would be impossible for us to know what our respective backgrounds are in Scripture, Christian history, etc.  For my part, I am an evangelical minister who has studied Judeo-Christanity and related subjects for over 25 years. (I have also studied most of the world’s religions and faiths as well.)  To say I have read hundreds of books on the subject would not be exaggerating.  And, no, these books were not all by “Christian apologists”; many were by Jewish scholars, many by scholars of other faiths, many by secular scholars.  And, no, I do not automatically “buy” any one interpretation; my study has been quite thorough and open-minded.  Note that I apologize if this comes off as “arrogant”; it is not intneded to be.  It is simply information that you did not have before, and is apparently necessary re this particular discussion.

In this regard, I can assure you that your position is questionable.  There is nary a single respected scholar - Christian, Jew, secular - who any longer questions the existence of the historical Jesus (as apart from who He “was”).  Indeed, contrary to your assertion, most scholars now believe that at least one of the two mentions by Josephus were accurate - and many believe that most of the other mention was as well (even if it was later “embellished” by others).  Indeed, the most in-depth historiography ever done on this exact subject (i.e., the accuracy of Josephus’ mentions, and the existence of the historical Jesus), completed only a few years ago and accepted by most scholars of Christian history, showed that there is more than enough evidence to support the existence of the historical Jesus (again, apart from what His role, if any, was).

As for “peace,” I would suggest that it is your post, not mine, that shows who’s “peace” is more “real.”

Peace.

Report this

By michael, April 17, 2007 at 3:29 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Yes of course there was a historical jesus.  but there also was a “real” robin hood” and a “real” king arthur.  But the questions is are the stories we hear about them now what really happened .

Report this

Page 1 of 2 pages  1 2 >

 
Right 1, Site wide - BlogAds Premium
 
Right 2, Site wide - Blogads
 
Join the Liberal Blog Advertising Network
 
 
 
Right Skyscraper, Site Wide
 
Join the Liberal Blog Advertising Network
 

A Progressive Journal of News and Opinion   Publisher, Zuade Kaufman   Editor, Robert Scheer
© 2014 Truthdig, LLC. All rights reserved.