Next up Truthdig reader Lane from Los Angeles—Obama was supposed to be a man who has learned from history (i.e. Vietnam, Lyndon Johnson, Iraq, Bush, ad infinitum). We’ve known for years our presence in the Middle East in general is the main contributing factor to terrorism. We all knew that al-Qaida was in Pakistan at the time Obama redoubled the commitment to Afghanistan. I was personally shocked at Obama’s decision to increase the commitment there, and now Obama is having to reconsider based on information everyone already knew. My question is what was it in the McChrystal Report that could possibly make a man with Obama’s intelligence go for this? Or what is it about Obama that could have been impressed by McChrystal? When Obama was elected I thought we had a smart man. I just don’t get it. Help me out with this.
9:27 Comment From Foucauldian
Fri, 25 Jun 2010 17:27:43 GMT
Comment: Heartless as it may seem, the discontinuation of the unemployment benefits may just be what the doctor ordered. The underclass has been kept relatively appeased with the measly checks.
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9:28 Comment From Anthony Thomas
Fri, 25 Jun 2010 17:28:38 GMT
Comment: Intelligence has nothing to do with a captured government, and the installation of neoliberals and neoconservatives all over the government [and in] presidential-appointed positions makes it nearly impossible to do anything sweeping.
9:28 Bob Scheer
Fri, 25 Jun 2010 17:28:52 GMT
Comment:
(To Lane) The answer can be given with a simple word: opportunism. That’s the quality that helped him become president; it’s a quality that’s encouraged by our elite education, which says get the right answer that powerful people want to hear rather than search for the truth. It’s a system that rewards so-called winners—people who care about career over more important values, and unfortunately, that’s the Obama we’re seeing. It’s not the kid struggling to define himself in a working-class community in Honolulu, but ,unfortunately, in the polished product of an elite education we have once again the prospect of the best and the brightest leading us dangerously astray. But we still see flashes of the Obama that we voted for, and hopefully as he goes down in the polls, he will play to his better nature.
9:28 Truthdig
Fri, 25 Jun 2010 17:28:59 GMT
Comment:
Truthdig reader inge asks—I haven’t seen anything or anybody question the ACCURACY of the writer(s)’ article in Rolling Stones. Why is everybody believing it to be fact what’s in it? Why is that? Thank you.
9:30 Comment From Foucauldian
Fri, 25 Jun 2010 17:30:07 GMT
Comment: “But we still see flashes of the Obama that we voted for, and hopefully as he goes down in the polls, he will play to his better nature. ”
9:30 Comment From Foucauldian
Fri, 25 Jun 2010 17:30:23 GMT
Comment: I don’t see any basis for your optimism, Bob.
9:31 Bob Scheer
Fri, 25 Jun 2010 17:31:18 GMT
Comment:
(To inge) Because if this guy [the Rolling Stone reporter] had not gotten it right, beginning with McChrystal, the people he wrote about would be screaming to the high heavens. I’ve been there as a journalist in the midst of controversial stories that rely on interviews, and I also helped launch Rolling Stone’s editor, Jann Wenner, who began at Ramparts, which I edited back in the ’60s. And being in what has been considered the “alternative,” as opposed to mainstream, media, we always knew that we’d better get our facts straight or we were quickly finished. And this is an incredibly well-reported story, and the fact that it has not been challenged attests to its veracity. Trust me, if these guys had a way of squirming out of it, we would have heard it by now.
9:31 Truthdig
Fri, 25 Jun 2010 17:31:31 GMT
Comment:
Next question from Selma Goldberg—Gen. McChrystal: What EXACTLY has to happen which convinces you the war has been successful? Describe in detail the environment in Afghanistan and the evidence this will be lasting. And how long do you think this will take to achieve?
9:31 Comment From Foucauldian
Fri, 25 Jun 2010 17:31:44 GMT
Comment: McChrystal wouldn’t have apologized if the report wasn’t true.
9:31 Truthdig
Fri, 25 Jun 2010 17:31:49 GMT
Comment:
(Steve, we will get to your question next.)
9:32 Comment From Steve
Fri, 25 Jun 2010 17:32:06 GMT
Comment: We (the left) are many—what do you think we have been doing wrong to be so ineffective?
9:33 Bob Scheer
Fri, 25 Jun 2010 17:33:19 GMT
Comment:
Selma—I assume that’s a question you’re putting to McChrystal, which he answered in his original report, where he said quite candidly that this would be a very long, if not endless, battle for the hearts and minds of the Afghan people, and that it would involve using the U.S. military in its most inappropriate and most ineffectual campaign to do educational and political organizing to make Afghanistan a mirror image of Midwestern U.S. society. It ain’t gonna happen.
Click here to check out Robert Scheer’s new book, “The Great American Stickup: How Reagan Republicans and Clinton Democrats Enriched Wall Street While Mugging Main Street.”
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This debacle also seems to allow greater convenience towards opening up discussion about the rules of engagement. This, at a time when I’m noticing a lot of opinion pages highlighting the frustrations of commanders in the field who are being pinned down and denied arial support due to the “winning hearts and minds” campaign.
I think, as Petraeus desires, we are going to see an increase in offensive measures. And with the pointless (and seemingly strategic) release of the U.S. Geological Survey’s assessment of Afghanistan’s mineral wealth, who here thinks our boys are going to be told to remain passive?
And the lie of Muslim terrorists with box-cutters finds fertile adherents by those who should know better.
Unless and until we understand that such lies are manufactured, and how they serve to enrich the wealthy, ensure a larger National Security State, and justify any and every act of imperial aggression and a ever-increasing military budget, we will never be able to face the most profound fact of all: That our government continues to lie to us at every turn, and that in order to be considered “credible”, journalists must accept and repeat those lies. Such willful ignorance is breath-taking.
Mr Sheer, with all due respect, do a little investigation, how about? For starters, maybe you can explain to us how a jumbo jet full of passengers crashes into the side of the Pentagon without leaving any passengers, luggage, engines, landing gear and squeezes into a hole smaller than the circumference of its fuselage.
“The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence that it is not utterly absurd.”
(Bertrand Russell)
THIS JUST IN:
On or about December 20, when most Americans are busy with last minute Christmas shopping, Adm. Westmoreland, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, will reach into his uniform pocket, and remove a Bible that he always keeps there. It will magically open at page 101 and he will read:
Greetings. Verily I say unto you that the Afghan War is over. Actually it has been over for some months but I guess you haven’t noticed.
Do as I say now, because I am your Higher Commander.
Go at once to Mr. Karzia, bow politely and tell him that your guys are finished and that he can talk all he wants to the Taliban and make any deal he wishes. You are out of here. Tell him just don’t let the Taliban claim a “victory” because you will need that word when you get back home. If he curses you in English, tell him when you started you thought you were doing the right thing.
Tell him the minerals and stuff in the hills belong to him to manage as he sees fit. Then pull your men back from battle positions and clear out a.s.a.p.
TheJaundicedEye - “Afghanistan is not Vietnam” is an ‘interesting’ piece of spittle given that when Russia went to war with Afghanistan, Brezezinski wrote a letter to Carter saying that now America could give Russia its Vietnam.
And there are some who argue that Mother Russia, already on the skids, sealed its downfall when it went to war with Afghanistan. (But of course America pays absolutely no attention to, gives no credence to historical precedent because America is an exception, peopled by the exceptional, guided by God, blah, blah, blah.)
How many of you remember the straight faced lies issuing from Washington, the neocons, warmongers and
defense profiteers stating flat out, without qualification, “Afghanistan is not Vietnam!”
Well, if it is not, it is one hell of a good imitation.
The USA is continuing to demonstrate the kind of hubristic stupidity and delusions of immortality and invulnerability which led to the USA having its ass handed to it after many years of farting around in Vietnam. Mayhap it will not be quite so clear a defeat this time, since the USA is not squaring off against a fully functioning nation state, but, rather, tribal zanies. However, the basic mistakes are the same . The USA is engaged in a war far from home, with incredibly long and exposed supply lines. There is no way to streamline the logistical system because most of the world is against the USA as it continues its mad adventuring. The USA is once again messing around in someone else’s backyard and has not taken the trouble to find out who the enemy is, how he thinks, or what can be gained by playing this stupid game. The US soldiers in Afghanistan have no more idea why they are in Afghanistan than a virus has why it is in someone’s
respiratory system. There is a lack of clear objectives and a lack of understanding of what will constitute victory. The only real difference between Afghanistan and Vietnam is the fact that in Vietnam there was a conscript army. Today, there is a professional force, all wearing the pickle suit by choice, although, for many of the soldiers, it is not much of a choice. Overwhelmingly, the grunts, the ground pounders, continue to be from the poorer, less privileged groups and areas of the USA.
So, why is Afghanistan not Vietnam? As far as I can tell, the only real differences between Vietnam and Afghanistan are geographic location and the fact that there is not a conscript US force in Afghanistan.
Sooner or later, the outcome of this insane field trip will be the same as the outcome of Vietnam. The only way available to produce anything which can plausibly be passed off as victory is to commit levels of troops and equipment that are just not possible, for time periods that are just not possible. This war has all ready cost the USA trillions of dollars, thousands of lives and the respect of the world. The damage from this piece of idiocy is quite likely to be even more serious than the damage that followed Vietnam. Actually, I have just realized that the last sentence above is actually another reason why Afghanistan is not Vietnam. Eventually, the fact that all of this gross stupidity is being paid for by borrowed money is going to have some effect on the USA’s ability to borrow money.
So, I am about to make a suggestion which has been made before, but no one has ever been smart enough to see the value in it. The USA should call a press conference, declare victory and drag itself home, before the inevitable day of judgment. Who is in the captain’s chair does not matter one little bit. The end is foreordained. McChrystal’s war or Petraeus’s war, makes no difference.
By richard nixon, June 25, 2010 at 7:46 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)
I think it would be beneficial to have more of these discussions and even start a
forum on here. There are a lot of questions I would like to pose about articles
written on here, just to general readers, but many can easily got lost below the
article.
Robert: I’m making this sugggestion from both listening in and submitting a question and from reading the results online. I think you had better decide ahead of time on one subject for discussion the following session and limit questions to that subject alone. Otherwise it is coming off as an awkward hodgepodge lacking in coherence and impact.
Just a thought. I know a lot of work goes into it.
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By Tim, June 28, 2010 at 8:02 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)
This debacle also seems to allow greater convenience towards opening up discussion about the rules of engagement. This, at a time when I’m noticing a lot of opinion pages highlighting the frustrations of commanders in the field who are being pinned down and denied arial support due to the “winning hearts and minds” campaign.
I think, as Petraeus desires, we are going to see an increase in offensive measures. And with the pointless (and seemingly strategic) release of the U.S. Geological Survey’s assessment of Afghanistan’s mineral wealth, who here thinks our boys are going to be told to remain passive?
Report thisBy FRTothus, June 28, 2010 at 1:27 pm Link to this comment
And the lie of Muslim terrorists with box-cutters finds fertile adherents by those who should know better.
Unless and until we understand that such lies are manufactured, and how they serve to enrich the wealthy, ensure a larger National Security State, and justify any and every act of imperial aggression and a ever-increasing military budget, we will never be able to face the most profound fact of all: That our government continues to lie to us at every turn, and that in order to be considered “credible”, journalists must accept and repeat those lies. Such willful ignorance is breath-taking.
Mr Sheer, with all due respect, do a little investigation, how about? For starters, maybe you can explain to us how a jumbo jet full of passengers crashes into the side of the Pentagon without leaving any passengers, luggage, engines, landing gear and squeezes into a hole smaller than the circumference of its fuselage.
“The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence that it is not utterly absurd.”
Report this(Bertrand Russell)
By gerard, June 26, 2010 at 10:50 am Link to this comment
THIS JUST IN:
On or about December 20, when most Americans are busy with last minute Christmas shopping, Adm. Westmoreland, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, will reach into his uniform pocket, and remove a Bible that he always keeps there. It will magically open at page 101 and he will read:
Greetings. Verily I say unto you that the Afghan War is over. Actually it has been over for some months but I guess you haven’t noticed.
Do as I say now, because I am your Higher Commander.
Go at once to Mr. Karzia, bow politely and tell him that your guys are finished and that he can talk all he wants to the Taliban and make any deal he wishes. You are out of here. Tell him just don’t let the Taliban claim a “victory” because you will need that word when you get back home. If he curses you in English, tell him when you started you thought you were doing the right thing.
Tell him the minerals and stuff in the hills belong to him to manage as he sees fit. Then pull your men back from battle positions and clear out a.s.a.p.
Postscript: Thou Shalt Not Kill.
Report thisBy felicity, June 26, 2010 at 8:39 am Link to this comment
TheJaundicedEye - “Afghanistan is not Vietnam” is an ‘interesting’ piece of spittle given that when Russia went to war with Afghanistan, Brezezinski wrote a letter to Carter saying that now America could give Russia its Vietnam.
And there are some who argue that Mother Russia, already on the skids, sealed its downfall when it went to war with Afghanistan. (But of course America pays absolutely no attention to, gives no credence to historical precedent because America is an exception, peopled by the exceptional, guided by God, blah, blah, blah.)
Report thisBy TheJaundicedEye, June 26, 2010 at 6:20 am Link to this comment
How many of you remember the straight faced lies issuing from Washington, the neocons, warmongers and
Report thisdefense profiteers stating flat out, without qualification, “Afghanistan is not Vietnam!”
Well, if it is not, it is one hell of a good imitation.
The USA is continuing to demonstrate the kind of hubristic stupidity and delusions of immortality and invulnerability which led to the USA having its ass handed to it after many years of farting around in Vietnam. Mayhap it will not be quite so clear a defeat this time, since the USA is not squaring off against a fully functioning nation state, but, rather, tribal zanies. However, the basic mistakes are the same . The USA is engaged in a war far from home, with incredibly long and exposed supply lines. There is no way to streamline the logistical system because most of the world is against the USA as it continues its mad adventuring. The USA is once again messing around in someone else’s backyard and has not taken the trouble to find out who the enemy is, how he thinks, or what can be gained by playing this stupid game. The US soldiers in Afghanistan have no more idea why they are in Afghanistan than a virus has why it is in someone’s
respiratory system. There is a lack of clear objectives and a lack of understanding of what will constitute victory. The only real difference between Afghanistan and Vietnam is the fact that in Vietnam there was a conscript army. Today, there is a professional force, all wearing the pickle suit by choice, although, for many of the soldiers, it is not much of a choice. Overwhelmingly, the grunts, the ground pounders, continue to be from the poorer, less privileged groups and areas of the USA.
So, why is Afghanistan not Vietnam? As far as I can tell, the only real differences between Vietnam and Afghanistan are geographic location and the fact that there is not a conscript US force in Afghanistan.
Sooner or later, the outcome of this insane field trip will be the same as the outcome of Vietnam. The only way available to produce anything which can plausibly be passed off as victory is to commit levels of troops and equipment that are just not possible, for time periods that are just not possible. This war has all ready cost the USA trillions of dollars, thousands of lives and the respect of the world. The damage from this piece of idiocy is quite likely to be even more serious than the damage that followed Vietnam. Actually, I have just realized that the last sentence above is actually another reason why Afghanistan is not Vietnam. Eventually, the fact that all of this gross stupidity is being paid for by borrowed money is going to have some effect on the USA’s ability to borrow money.
So, I am about to make a suggestion which has been made before, but no one has ever been smart enough to see the value in it. The USA should call a press conference, declare victory and drag itself home, before the inevitable day of judgment. Who is in the captain’s chair does not matter one little bit. The end is foreordained. McChrystal’s war or Petraeus’s war, makes no difference.
By Ouroborus, June 26, 2010 at 5:24 am Link to this comment
I’m tired and don’t want to read anything; where’s the
Report thismp3?
By Marc Schlee, June 26, 2010 at 2:48 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)
Isn’t a “masterstroke” when you get it right the first time instead of screwing up really, really bad and then sweeping it under the political carpet?
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DIRECT DEMOCRACY
Report thisBy richard nixon, June 25, 2010 at 7:46 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)
I think it would be beneficial to have more of these discussions and even start a
Report thisforum on here. There are a lot of questions I would like to pose about articles
written on here, just to general readers, but many can easily got lost below the
article.
By gerard, June 25, 2010 at 5:25 pm Link to this comment
Robert: I’m making this sugggestion from both listening in and submitting a question and from reading the results online. I think you had better decide ahead of time on one subject for discussion the following session and limit questions to that subject alone. Otherwise it is coming off as an awkward hodgepodge lacking in coherence and impact.
Just a thought. I know a lot of work goes into it.
Report this