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Denunciation and Disruption: The Vision That Drives Occupy Wall Street

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Posted on Oct 25, 2011
AP / Mary Altaffer

By Christopher Ketcham

(Page 3)

I meet a man named William G. Bores, who has brought his daughter Anna, a wide-eyed ninth-grader. Bores is a union man, an executive board representative of the National Association of Broadcast Employees and Technicians. “The companies are outta hand,” he tells me. “They’ve won. We’re down to 272 members from 1,200 when I started 25 years ago. We’re working now 10 months without a contract. The first time I went down to Zuccotti Park, I wanted to kiss these kids.” I ask him about the cops. “I’m the son of a city cop—my dad was 20 years at the two-five in East Harlem in the ’60s and ’70s. I’m the brother of a state cop. The godson of a major crimes detective.” Bores has nothing against cops. What he doesn’t like is cops going after the wrong people. His son, who is studying labor relations at Cornell, slept at Z Park for days. “He got his start when he was 8 years old, when I was on the picket line against Disney, locked out. He was leafleting and Disney nearly got him arrested.” Bores picks up a bucket, a makeshift drum, and Anna now plays, banging away.

I turn for a moment, and when I look back, plainclothesmen are shooting photographs of protesters—gathering face-databases, who knows—and Bores decides to shoot photos of the cops shooting photos. This is not well received.

An undercover pushes him, cursing: “Get the fuck outta my way.”

Bores, a tall man, fit, stands his ground. “Come on,” says the undercover, baiting him. “Come on.”

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“You don’t push me,” Bores says—but he keeps his hands behind his back to show he will not engage in hurt. “I didn’t touch you, you don’t touch me.”

“Come on,” says the undercover, beckoning with a finger. Bores stares the cop down, unmoving. The crowd surrounds them, the cameras flashing.

Down the block on 46th Street, a big black Marine, Sgt. Shamar Thomas, in fatigues, with his medals from 14 months in Iraq displayed, confronts 30 cops, who stand stone faced, not knowing how to deal with the unhinged veteran. “It’s not a war zone,” Thomas is yowling, sounding like a madman. “These are unarmed people,” Thomas screams. “It doesn’t make you tough to hurt these people. Leave these people alone! These are U.S. citizens! U.S. citizens! My mom did a year in Iraq, my father was in Afghanistan. If you want to kill and hurt people, go to Iraq.”

“Just walk down the street please,” says a White Shirt in a megaphone, but Thomas doesn’t move.

“I can’t speak, y’all wanna shut me up! There’s no honor in this. How do you sleep at night? There is no honor in this! No honor! No honor!”

Bores watches as Thomas stands down the cops, and then the two of them hug.

Later I learn that at roughly this same juncture Credico, a block away in Times Square, is attacked by the cops and beaten badly and taken away in cuffs, looking scared. He says it was at the hands of one of the White Shirts he had mocked all the way up 6th Avenue.

Filmmaker Michael Moore now passes by at 46th and 7th, schlumpy and shambling, as fat in person as he is on film, trailed by what appears to be a personal videographer to capture his every fart. Most of the crowd ignores him. Moore doesn’t matter here. The VIPs don’t matter here. (A few days later, at Zuccotti Park, Jesse Jackson showed up, and so did Congressman Charlie Rangel. It was a fine photo op for Jackson and his entourage. Most of the kids in Z Park shrugged. They could give a shit, and they wanted him to go away. When Rangel made his appearance, he “looked like a robot,” says Jeff Smith, 41, who was formerly in advertising and public relations—he concluded his business was “pure evil”—and has been nose-leading the media for the occupation. “Or an alien. Or on safari. He seemed to need to be led around, waiting to be approached and have his hand pumped.”)

At 46th and 7th, the people’s microphone cues up. A simple human technique that works like this: Someone wishes to speak, they cry, “Mic check!” And the crowd responds, “Mic check!” The speaker intones, barely audible, and the crowd repeats the words like a Greek chorus, the effect being that the speech is made by all, the speaker only as powerful as his language.

Above us, the vast inhuman billboards of Times Square, the extravaganzas of epileptic light—the looney-tune advertisements (a girl parades in underwear, a girl laughs and laughs because she’s gotten the holy grail of underwear); the Bank of America sign, its blood-red rich neon; the Dow’s ticker its usual gibberish of numbers that mean nothing for this crowd. Then, a news ticker: “Occupy Wall Street goes global.” The occupation has marched in 1,500 cities across the planet, and in 100 U.S. cities. Hundreds of thousands of people united against world corporatocracy.

A voice, small and cracking, begins: “Mic check!” A roared response, the crowd ready, the billboards and the idiot light shows receding, made irrelevant: “We want to salute—”

“We want to salute!” answers the people’s mic.

“Our brothers and sisters—”

“Our brothers and sisters!”


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By heterochromatic, October 30, 2011 at 12:48 pm Link to this comment

Sher——-OWS has half a million bucks from donations. They don’t need anything
more to buy all those items for the 200 or less people in the Park.

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By Shenonymous, October 30, 2011 at 12:30 pm Link to this comment

OWS Needs
•  insulated gloves, wool hats, scarves
•  long underwear / smart wool thermal socks
•  300 hand warmers, 300 foot warmers
•  waterproof boots in all sizes
•  disposable shoe covers
•  winter coats
•  hot beverages
•  thermal heaters
•  all weather sub-thermal sleeping bags
•  tarps
•  all-weather tents
•  foam padding / insulation for inside of tents
•  wooden pallets to get tents off the ground
•  cots to get people off the ground (don’t currently have any - could
really use these)
Dropping Off In Person In NYC
Daily until 9pm at the OWS storage space at 52 Broadway Ave, ground
floor.
After 9pm at the OWS Comfort Station on the east side of Liberty Square
(aka Zuccotti Park)
Where To Ship

Occupy Wall Street
?118a Fulton St?
PO Box 205
?New York, NY 10038

If anyone has info about Oakland, etc., please post it.  Thanx
terry p.  Very much appreciated your post.  I will read it more thoroughly
later this evening.  I know I have some response but cannot do that right
now.  I think this is a true movement that will not go away, ever.  Even
though over time it will all tamp down, the world has changed.  I was
watching the uprisings that have happened in South America, particularly
Argentina a couple of years ago, I think it was.  Also a Fareed Zakaria
interview of Bernard Henri-Levy’s account of what is the feeling in Libya
now.  It was most encouraging.  These popular rebellions are now part of
world culture and there will be ramifications for the elites, the 1%ers all
over the planet.

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By terry p, October 30, 2011 at 9:04 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

This is the latest statement from the OWS news blog (Link below):

“It’s been dumping snow here in NYC all day, high winds and 3 inches of slush on the ground. With the NYPD and FDNY confiscating six generators on Friday and this unprecedented October snow, those occupying Liberty Plaza in downtown NYC are in need of emergency supplies crucial for cold weather survival (and occupation)

link for details >> http://occupywallst.org/article/urgent-winter-donation-needs/ <<”

Winter has come early and the police are taking the survival gear!

tp

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By terry p, October 30, 2011 at 8:31 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Shenonymous:?)Hi

I like your name! I have a similar name on a different blog. It’s Synonymos:?)

Anyway, I disagree with you that this is a middle class movement. This movement represents everyone. Yesterday OWS organized a march to bring attention to the homeless in New York. This is global and has every kind of people paying attention to it. I agree that the middle class are huge participants but this movement has all classes even some of the super rich .o1% are involved.

The occupation idea started in Spain a few months earlier and the participants there are still occupying their original spot. The date of Sept 18 2011(I think??) for OWS was preset months earlier. I heard about it in a Wikileaks tweet about a month before it started. It is a very old struggle though that has been simmering for a long time. It has reached a boiling point. People are—“mad as hell and aren’t going to take anymore”.


I hope you do read the book “Web of Debt”. Ellen Brown, the author, is a Lawyer living in California. She started researching our system of money in her college years. When the bottom fell out in 2008 she had just finished this book. It was perfect timing for her and for people who were looking for answers, like me. It explains how we got into this mess and it explains how to fix it. The solution is actually a simple proven one that was used by Abe Lincoln and was the original idea for the Franklin Bank. The book is also easily understood. Without going into more details, which you will find plenty in her book, the answer to our problems is in having a Public Banking System. The twelve Federal Reserve Banks are privately owned. The Shocking truths about how these private banks actually create money through our debt is explained in simple truths. The tax payers pick up the tab. Woodrow Wilson signed the Federal Reserve Act into law in 1913 and later lamented that he gave away our country. The largest banks in our country and in Europe counterfeit money using the Fractional Reserve Banking system. The book will give you enough details to make you want to take action and support the movement. One of the first, if not the first, demands of OWS was to Nationalize the Feds.That is my hope.

You have a good point about the support dwindling when things get out of hand. But, aren’t things already out of hand when our system has been hijacked by a few people on Wall-Street? They are so powerful now that they own our political system - especially since the recent Supreme Court decision that allows unlimited funding by Corporations. Those few people who dictate through monopoly corporations aren’t even US citizens but their vote counts much more than ours.  99% of the people are supporting this movement as their name suggest. Wouldn’t the movement then be our government? And wouldn’t Anarchy be in the ranks of the System since it is controlled by that rouge .01%. Therefore, if things get out of control then you should support the vast majority, shouldn’t you, instead of the status quo?  Since Anarchy has already occurred, albeit a very slow deliberate evil scheme by megalomaniacs of Wall-Street, taking many years of propaganda, tons of bribes and political deceit, we must continue to support the majority - the 99% - Go OWS!  (insert black fist here!:?)

Have great day and peace be with you(PBWY)

tp:?)

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By Shenonymous, October 29, 2011 at 1:08 pm Link to this comment

terryp.  I will get the book.  I am not an anarchist and I’ve made
that clear many times before and why.  There are elements of the
energy of an anarchistic movement that could be seen in the
uprising called OWS.  Of course they ought to assemble as
freepeople.  Of course they are completely within their rights.
I’m not saying what you ill-understood.  But if it is confrontation
with police that is the goal, that is one thing, that is not what they
have been giving voice to.  They have not called for a defiance of
police authority.  Perhaps you interpret the movement in a narrow way. 
I’ve listened to many of the participants.  if the protesters camp out on
private property, that is another (I don’t think OWS are protesting anyone
owning property, as I bet many of them own houses, cars, jewelry, etc.,
even stocks and bonds!).  This is a middle class rebellion don’t forget.

There is a line that could be crossed where they awaken the disdain of
the public that is watching them and giving them much moral support if
nothing else.

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By terry p, October 29, 2011 at 7:07 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

By Shenonymous, October 28 at 2:55 pm Link to this comment

“What’s needed at this point is to get a legitimate permit for
mass rallies in central locations throughout the nation——”

What you’re suggesting is that we now need a permit to be free in a fenced in controlled concentration camp.

I don’t think so!

tp
PS: read the book that I keep suggesting! It’s “The Web of Debt” written by Ellen Brown

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By Shenonymous, October 28, 2011 at 2:55 pm Link to this comment

“What’s needed at this point is to get a legitimate permit for
mass rallies in central locations throughout the nation…...such
a day could bring out many many MILLIONS of ordinary Americans
and they would come out since they would feel safe from being
beaten up and tear gassed.”

This is a perfect time to apply for the legitimate permit from the
city since the Mayor of Oakland expressed sorrow on nationwide
TV for the behavior of the police.  If she is genuinely contrite, she will
see to it the permits are issued!  If she isn’t the world will know what a
hypocrite she is and she will have to face consequences of her next
non-reelection or a recall.

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By JDmysticDJ, October 28, 2011 at 10:20 am Link to this comment

“The United States presidential election of 1968 was the 46th quadrennial United States presidential election. Coming four years after Democrat Lyndon B. Johnson won in a historic landslide, it saw Johnson forced out of the race and Republican Richard Nixon elected. The election was a wrenching national experience, conducted against a backdrop that included the assassination of civil rights leader Martin Luther King, Jr. and subsequent race riots across the nation, the assassination of presidential candidate Robert F. Kennedy, widespread demonstrations against the Vietnam War across American university and college campuses, and violent confrontations between police and anti-war protesters at the 1968 Democratic National Convention as the Democratic party split again and again.

On November 5, 1968, the Republican nominee, former Vice President Richard Nixon won the election over the Democratic nominee, Vice President Hubert Humphrey. Nixon ran on a campaign that promised to restore law and order to the nation’s cities, torn by riots and crime. The election of 1968 was a realigning election that permanently disrupted the New Deal Coalition that had dominated presidential politics for 36 years.”


“The United States presidential election of 1972 was the 48th quadrennial United States presidential election. It was held on November 7, 1972. The Democratic Party’s nomination was eventually won by Senator George McGovern, who ran an anti-war campaign against incumbent Republican President Richard Nixon…”

“Nixon won the election in a landslide, with 60.7% of the popular vote, only slightly lower than Lyndon B. Johnson in 1964 but with a larger margin of victory in the popular vote (23.2%), the fourth largest in presidential election history. He received almost 18 million more popular votes than McGovern—the widest margin of any U.S. presidential election. McGovern only won the electoral votes of Massachusetts and the District of Columbia…”

The peace movement served a purpose by highlighting the issue of the Vietnam War, but hot headed elements within the peace movement, from the radical-left, and also understandably hot headed race rioters, alienated the American electorate.


The War came to an official end in 1975 when forces from North Vietnam in conjunction with the Viet Cong defeated South Vietnamese forces and occupied Saigon, the seat of South Vietnamese Governance.

Did the peace movement end the wars in Indochina? The debate rages on. The U.S. illegally invaded Cambodia; the U.S. covertly aided the overthrow of Cambodia’s “Neutral” Prince Sihanouk, leading to the overthrow of U.S. Ally Lon Nol by murderous Khmer Rouge “Hot heads.”

“The Cambodian Campaign (also known as the Cambodian Incursion) was a series of military operations conducted in eastern Cambodia during mid-1970 by the United States (U.S.) and the Republic of Vietnam (South Vietnam) during the Vietnam War. These invasions were a result of policy of President Richard Nixon whose decision it was to invade.”

“Nixon was a “Hot head,” and the American people elected this “Hot head.” Why?

Blessed are the peacemakers, damned are the “Hot heads.”  Perhaps stupid would be a more acceptable description for non-lethal “Hot heads.” “Stupid are the ‘Hot Heads,’” but their hot headedness is sometime lethal, lethal to goals and ultimately lethal to people.

Stay cool!

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By Nick_Lento, October 28, 2011 at 9:46 am Link to this comment

A great narrative of some of the nitty gritty and bloody reality of confronting
police power.

There is a risk of falling into the trap of making this whole movement into a
battle with the cops…and that would be a distraction the establishment would
love to foist upon us.

What’s needed at this point is to get a legitimate permit for mass rallies in
central locations throughout the nation…...such a day could bring out many
many MILLIONS of ordinary Americans and they would come out since they
would feel safe from being beaten up and tear gassed.

There IS a place for civil disobedience and confrontation….but that alone is not
enough.

At some point this will have to manifest in the form of actually ELECTING
progressive MAJORITIES to congress and to the state houses and to the local ten
councils etc.

All of the policy aims we wish to achieve require that we engage at ALL levels!!!

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, October 28, 2011 at 7:30 am Link to this comment

Being flabbergasted may be one way to perceive inane comments, or comments which serve one purpose only to promote flabbergasting or take from the topic at hand.  Hell, it is even in the title! Except I see it as disruption of unification!  “Denunciation and Disruption: The Vision That Drives Occupy Wall Street”

Lets face it the right feel threatened even when the people the populous are not on the street. No wonder the Republicans and Tea Party prostitute themselves to the 1 percent, hence the irk of the protesters, the 99 percenters.

The simple fact my taxes are wasted on wars, bail outs for to big to fail and Republicans have vowed not to raise taxes on the rich, but will cut paid for entitlements says something about who they are fornicating with.  The fact those privier entities like big oil, banks and wall street used my tax money to lobby against me and the populous is so ludicrous the integrity of the whole thing should not even be debatable.

The simple fact Republicans signed a pledge to never raise taxes, a pledge sponsored by one man,  no matter what, shows the absurdity of our political system. This seems criminal against the people, as are lobbyists, super packs and now 403C’s. Corporations are not people too, unless they go to prison, war and vote. Oh… wait they already go to prisons as profiteers, same for war and they do not need to vote, because they buy their coney politicians.

Occupy Wall Street has seen the writing on the wall, even I have seen the damn hand writing on the wall, lets hope more people wake and see it too.

Get the money out of politicos, so representative government represents the 99 percent instead of just the money bagged few!

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By terry p, October 28, 2011 at 5:54 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

JDmysticDJ, October 27 at 1:59 pm

“Who to lobby, and who will be most inclined to author, and vote for, legislation designed to eliminate trouble is an issue worth considering.”

—————

One of the main points of OWS is that our elected representatives don’t represent the 99%. Our system is corrupt. We need a constitutional convention after the corrupt Banksters and Corporations have been purged.

WSO is the beginning of something. I have no idea what that will evolve into. It is scary but not anymore so than the ruling dicks we have now.

What bothers me more than anything is what the ruling dicks might do to combat this movement. We never got to the bottom of 911 terrorism because the investigation was hijacked. Some kind of special operation could end this WSO movement with another round of Bushit patriotic take over following another similar inside job as was (possibly the case) bringing the twin towers down. But, that is the same kind of fear that keeps some of us silent.

The only way we can bring about change is not by being silent. I don’t like violence either. Peace is my wish. I think Bush said the same kind of thing right before invading Iraq. He was a legislator using words to justify doing something we (I assume you too) hate which is to create a perpetual war.

The only hope I see for the future lies somewhere in this movement. No more Bushit legislators. No more corporate rip offs. No more lies. More Wikileaks and appreciation of people like Julian Assange!

The WSO has for the first time in a long time inspired a shadow of hope for the 99% except when Obama was running for office.  He completely trashed all traces of that hope till now.

tp
PS:“The Web of Debt” has a few answers

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By terry p, October 28, 2011 at 5:34 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Raoul partner:)

Keep the peace man! The movement really works better when the only violence the world sees comes from the beasts or wizards behind the curtains of Wall Street rather than your allies.

The twisted paradoxical thinking is ironic that those brain dead police who will be busting your head at the parade are peons in the 99% being f—ked by the banksters too. :?]

If you have time read “The Web of Debt” by Ellen Brown before you join that parade. It’s about the tricks of banksters who PRIVATELY own the Federal Reserves Banks since the act of 1913.

your friend

tp:?)

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By ardee, October 28, 2011 at 5:12 am Link to this comment

heterochromatic, October 27 at 3:22 pm Link to this comment

tolstoy——just xackly how did the protests end the war in Vietnam ?——way iI
remember it was that the South Vietnamese caved and that’s what ended the war.

Every so often I see a post that so explicitly denigrates the poster’s “knowledge ” of his/her topic that I remain flabbergasted.

This particular effort should win a booby prize.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, October 28, 2011 at 4:52 am Link to this comment

Gerard writes,  “4. What is needed is a government made up of people who care about the 99% of ordinary people who vote for them and pay taxes for their public service, and to stop favoring the tiny minority of people who give them huge sums of money and take them to expensive lunches. This is perhaps the basic fundamental appeal of the Occupy movement.”

It’s the ‘appeal’?  Perhaps, but that’s a long way from a written stated purpose.  And there comes the trouble.  Define “tiny minority of people who give…”.  OK, so you define it, and we chop off the head, the extremely visible ‘influencers’.  So now, the Representatives, who are political creatures, drop to the next level of ‘influential’, millionaires, not billionairs in the case of Republicans, and let us not forget other types of influence buying, through votes instead of direct campaign financing. 

You mention, “99% of ordinary people”.  Why don’t we start trying to understand that this is not a collection of special interests and a ‘rainbow’, each color of which can be manipulated against any other color, sexuality or age, simply by promising that segment a special reward?  Ultimately by viewing ourselves as part of a special group,  we diminish the power of being just a plain old, ordinary, nothing special member of the 99%. 

I think this sort of thinking is crucial to taking away the most powerful tool the 1% have against the 99%, and that is our susceptibility to forming special interest groups within the 99%, and thus unwittingly dividing ourselves for conquer and control.

This is a sea change in politics, and it depends on each individual surrendering their claims to special treatment.  Can it happen?  Can we promote sensitivity to being divided?  Can we promote sensitivity to being manipulated by promises of special treatment?  Special favors that ultimately come at the expense of the 99%? 

So, I’ve laid out a general sentiment and ask, how strong is this sentiment within the OWS movement?  And above all other ‘groupings’, can we walk away from control by the structures of political parties?

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By heterochromatic, October 27, 2011 at 11:26 pm Link to this comment

===Every time a new person goes goes down even for a short visit to Occupy
Wall Street, and goes back and tells one person that they were there in support,
it is succeeding more. Imagine if they told 10 people, 100 people.====

———


You know, if
one person, just one person does it they may think he’s really sick and
they won’t take him.  And if two people, two people do it, in harmony,
they may think they’re both faggots and they won’t take either of them.
And three people do it, three, can you imagine, three people walking in
singin a bar of Alice’s Restaurant and walking out. They may think it’s an
organization.  And can you, can you imagine fifty people a day,I said
fifty people a day walking in singin a bar of Alice’s Restaurant and
walking out.  And friends they may thinks it’s a movement.

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Not One More!'s avatar

By Not One More!, October 27, 2011 at 11:08 pm Link to this comment

How Occupy Wall Street Succeeds

Every time a new person goes goes down even for a short visit to Occupy Wall Street, and goes back and tells one person that they were there in support, it is succeeding more. Imagine if they told 10 people, 100 people. That is the spread of information and awareness.

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By heterochromatic, October 27, 2011 at 10:57 pm Link to this comment

—-3. Corporations lobbying in their interest has become so powerful that
lobbying from any other interest is inconsequential. Most people know that, so
they have lost interest in lobbying—naturally.——

there are an awful large number of lobbyists for environmental groups working
against lobbyists for corporate interests, gerard…. and not doing all that badly.

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By gerard, October 27, 2011 at 10:42 pm Link to this comment

JDMysticDJD Your suggestion:—” The 99% in order to be affective need to lobby government for constructive legislation to eliminate trouble. Who to lobby, and who will be most inclined to author, and vote for, legislation designed to eliminate trouble is an issue worth considering”—is conventionally correct, and is supposed to work in a democracy. However, it doesn’t work anymore, for several reasons:
  1. Effective lobbying these days requires more money than brains. Yet it is brainy lobbying that is needed.  Money does not seem to buy brains; it buys
bias in favor of the status quo controlled by wealthy elites. Since ordinary people are not wealthy elites, they cannot buy favors.
  2. “Legislation designed to eliminate trouble” is an interestingly vague concept. Obvious to the 99$ (or most of them by this time) is that the “trouble” is they don’t have any money because the elites have it all, and they can’t make any money because the elites shipped most of the jobs overseas to save labor costs. To “eliminate that trouble” would require a major overhaul of international banking and corporate procedures which would obviously not be in their interest because it would cut into their profits. 
  So they, and their paid lobbyists and political toadies won’t go for it, which makes lobbying them useless.
  3. Corporations lobbying in their interest has become so powerful that lobbying from any other interest is inconsequential. Most people know that, so they have lost interest in lobbying—naturally.
  4. What is needed is a government made up of people who care about the 99% of ordinary people who vote for them and pay taxes for their public service, and to stop favoring the tiny minority of people who give them huge sums of money and take them to expensive lunches. This is perhaps the basic fundamental appeal of the Occupy movement.
  They are trying to figure out how to reclaim the respect and attention of their government because they are the vast majority to whom their government is obligated by its very existence. They are trying to talk to their government directly, (and to the money behind their government’s misbehavior) and at the same time, figure out practical ways to recreate a workable democracy.
  Something entirely new is being born. Give it time, and listen carefully, and see that before winter comes the Occupiers are provided with an indoor space and enough food to keep them healthy—A second National Constitutional Covention, if you will. It’s a tremendous opportunity to put an end to lies, cheating and theft, and to re-create a great nation.

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By heterochromatic, October 27, 2011 at 7:27 pm Link to this comment

——” If you don’t know the system is broken and needs reforming the demands
won’t help. An awareness change followed by regulating the system back to
decency is what we need.”——-

sitting in the park is a demonstration of a belief held by some, it’s not creating “an
awareness change”.


you get some people to offer an attractive and sensible alternative….maybe you
create something.

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By heterochromatic, October 27, 2011 at 7:23 pm Link to this comment

laugh all you want…..all the protests never got us to pull out. we stayed till the
end.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, October 27, 2011 at 5:51 pm Link to this comment

Says Lafayette, “If the metric is purely monetary then one must assume that money conveys worth, which is (of itself) also fallacious.”    To the MBA class, price precisely determines value.  Any clue there as to any of the problems on Wall St.?

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, October 27, 2011 at 5:47 pm Link to this comment

“I would direct you to the several you have committed but I see no purpose since you are defensively resistant and perhaps wouldn’t understand.”  Try me.

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By tolstoy, October 27, 2011 at 5:12 pm Link to this comment

You’re kidding me, right? We lost the Vietnam War because the South Vietnamese caved? That’s gonna give me a laugh for the next fifteen minutes.

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By tolstoy, October 27, 2011 at 5:09 pm Link to this comment

Hetero better do some history. I will just say one more thing then shut the fuck up. I feel my lizard brain stirring its tongue. A program isn’t needed, not a list of demands. If you don’t know the system is broken and needs reforming the demands won’t help. An awareness change followed by regulating the system back to decency is what we need. Instead of violence we have an election year coming right up. Suppose OWS type candidates were fielded at every level local, state, federal, and on up to the presidency. OWS for president or something. You know I think that might the shit stirreth even further.

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By heterochromatic, October 27, 2011 at 3:22 pm Link to this comment

tolstoy——just xackly how did the protests end the war in Vietnam ?——way iI
remember it was that the South Vietnamese caved and that’s what ended the war.

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By tolstoy, October 27, 2011 at 3:19 pm Link to this comment

Frustration with no demands, no specific program, etc. etc. The same complaints continue. Why can’t these OWS’ers come up with a list of demands and a program etc. etc. But casting back to those old SF days in the sixties etc.. was the dynamic of change brought on through demands (all so easily dismissed) or through a series of uprisings, sometimes with deep pain involved, that gradually, oh so gradually, lifted public consciousness so that from within a slow-growing awareness and revulsion in the public at large came exactly what led to the end of Johnson, Nixon, and the Vietnam War? Keep in mind how the public perception of the Vietnam War changed from massive support to shame and disgrace as the years passed by. It’s a long path now started on, and it could take years to get anywhere, as did the Civil Rights Movement and the Anti-Vietnam movement.
Or it might be faster due to what’s happened with social media and networking. Let’s move the energy toward Occupy The Presidential Election.

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By tolstoy, October 27, 2011 at 3:12 pm Link to this comment

Yes, the same complaints continue. Why can’t these OWS’ers come up with a list of demands and a program etc. etc. But casting back to those old SF days in the sixties etc.. was the dynamic of change brought on through demands (all so easily dismissed) or through a series of uprisings, sometimes with deep pain involved, that gradually, oh so gradually, lifted public consciousness so that from within a slow-growing awareness and revulsion in the public at large came exactly what led to the end of Johnson, Nixon, and the Vietnam War? Keep in mind how the public perception of the Vietnam War changed from massive support to shame and disgrace as the years passed by. It’s a long path now started on, and it could take years to get anywhere, as did the Civil Rights Movement and the Anti-Vietnam movement.
Or it might be faster due to what’s happened with social media and networking. Let’s move the energy toward Occupy The Presidential Election.

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By Morpheus, October 27, 2011 at 3:07 pm Link to this comment

It’s going to get much worse, while many of us are still talking online.

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM
OsiXs (Common Sense 3.1)

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By Shenonymous, October 27, 2011 at 2:56 pm Link to this comment

Let’s seeee…  on what figure is the 1% based?  I’m guessing the
310 million population?  It is kind of silly to try to name each of
the 99% of 310 million people in the USA.  But on March 5 this
year Michael Moore wrote in the Journal-Sentinel, PolitiFact
Wisconsin, that 400 Americans have more than half of all
Americans (that’s 310 million divided by 2 = 155,000,000
Americans).  He asked that this information be repeated on
mainstream TV media.  Did you hear it?  I didn’t?  Nor saw it in
any mainstream newspaper.  Anyway, I think these names ought
to be published.  A Federal Reserve Board report (FRB) provided the
numbers for 2010 and the calculation and a Forbes report gave the
Forbes 400 a net worth of $1.37 trillion against the total net worth of
the US of $54.9 trillion and using Moore’s formula of 2.3% decided,
which was corroborated by three economists as being fine, the poor’s
net worth, who are 60% of the 99%, of $1.26 trillion and Moore wanted
to know how it is that 400 people have more wealth than half of the
more than 100 million US households.  Seems like a good question,
don’t you?  Well guess what, in checking the Forbes website, there is
a list of the Forbes 400. 
http://www.forbes.com/forbes-400/#p_1_s_arank_All

There are about 40 pages of names and what each is worth and their
relative rank.  This might be important information since they and their
corporations are now considered people.

The GOP is just the political henchmen for the wealthy who do not want
to pay their fair share.  I heard on Dylan Ratigan that 60% of the wealthy
do indeed want to pay more in taxes.  Hmmmmm, that is very
interesting.  Don’t you think?. 

Course Tea Partier Ultra Conservative Republican Paul Ryan was quicker
than quick to try to debunk that survey.  But he couldn’t.

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By Lafayette, October 27, 2011 at 2:41 pm Link to this comment

She: the art of avoiding fallacies

I clicked on your link and found the encyclopedia interesting. I was particularly intrigued by the fallacy called Ad Crumenum (Appeal to Money), that is,

The fallacy of appeal to money uses the error of supposing that, if something costs a great deal of money, then it must be better.  Or supposing that if someone has a great deal of money, then they’re a better person in some way unrelated to having a great deal of money.

Similarly it’s a mistake to suppose that if something is cheap it must be of inferior quality, or to suppose that if someone is poor financially then they’re poor at something unrelated to having money.

The above example I find to be prevalent in the US. The intrinsic quality of something is not esteemed by virtue of its intrinsic nature but its cost.

Of course, intrinsic nature is debatable ...  but that is precisely where the fun is found - debating the nature of the object or thought or notion/idea.

If the metric is purely monetary then one must assume that money conveys worth, which is (of itself) also fallacious.

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By ardee, October 27, 2011 at 2:37 pm Link to this comment

DmysticDJ, October 27 at 1:59 pm

A well ordered and thoughtful posting, thanks for it. As to the eventualities that may or may not come from these rapidly spreading demonstrations one can only speculate.

These spontaneous outpourings of a rational inability to stomach this nation’s descent into fascism should be seen as only a beginning. Of course we will need, once enough of us are energized into action, an ordered approach to building from the movement an organization capable of continuing to enlist popular support as well as working effectively to rid our government of the tools of corporate fascism and replace them with those dedicated to serving the peoples needs and regulating the actions of corporations while nurturing their ability to compete in the market place.

Perhaps this is much to ask, as well as being anathema to anarchists and libertarians. But to expect to reform either major political party, grow a third party, win out in bringing about free elections, as well as enacting the various goals of the progressives to restore our nation to a morality it has lost we will need to work rather long and hard.

OWS is only a beginning.

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By heterochromatic, October 27, 2011 at 2:21 pm Link to this comment

JDmysticDJ,——far from a buzzkill, that was a rather excellent comment.

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By JDmysticDJ, October 27, 2011 at 1:59 pm Link to this comment

Rational thought is a “buzz kill.” (Damn rational thinkers always spoiling the fun.) Ketcham obviously got caught up in the enthusiasm. He relates how he joined in with the chanting and how good it felt. Which is fine, I have done the same, and I’m sure I’ll do so again. The thing is, in order to achieve goals something other than anarchy is required. I suppose the goal of a stadium full of hysterical football fans is to help motivate their team, mass hysteria to serve a goal; a goal of dominance, or maybe its just glee, or idol worship, or all of the above; whatever it is, it is a remarkable phenomena.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m all in favor of non-violent protest, and well ordered non-violent civil disobedience, I’ve participated in many protests, and I’ve gone to jail practicing civil disobedience. One memory that will last throughout my life is looking down Market Street in San Francisco and seeing the street filled with non-violent demonstrators as far as the eye could see; people from all walks of life and from all age groups. I can remember couples leaning from their apartment windows cheering on the demonstrators, and I can also remember how at the culmination of that demonstration a tiny group of hooligans stormed the gates of the Presidio thoroughly discrediting the demonstration. It was this tiny group of hooligans, radicals, morons, whatever, that were the focus of media coverage the next day.

Clearly Occupy Wall Street’s goal is to arouse the 99% and bring issues to the forefront of political debate, hopefully to build a consensus for change, reform, whatever… it’s that whatever that troubles me. As far as I can tell the primary goal of Occupy Wall Street is the same as my primary goal. I support Occupy Wall Street but I have questions about how goals are to be achieved in a tangible way.

Ketcham writes:

“The beauty in all this is that there is no mere demand, not a sliver of legislation the occupiers want passed or special interest they want satisfied—nothing by which to be hemmed in ideologically or politically.”

If achieving goals is the THE goal then “the beauty in all this” leaves something to be desired. Love is a beautiful thing, but unrequited love is a drag. If ending Wall Street abuses is the goal, then regulation of Wall Street will be required and regulation of Wall Street can not be achieved with “Not a sliver of legislation.”

Contemplating the virtue, or lack of virtue, in disrupting the Macy’s Thanksgiving Day Parade would involve consideration of possible outcomes. If Occupy Wall Street’s Goal is to build consensus and to garner support from the 99%, I wonder if disrupting the Macy’s Thanksgiving Day Parade will serve that end. I’m sure that some would say thanks for disrupting the Macy’s Thanksgiving Day Parade, but I’ll proffer that there might be some blow back from some percentage of the 99% if such an actuality should come to pass. Hopefully cooler heads in Occupy Wall Street will prevail, but I suppose there will always be “hot heads” who revel in causing trouble.

Ketcham concludes his article by writing:

“The future lies in people gathered in the streets in solidarity and making trouble.”

Forgive me if I misinterpret what is occurring. I’m all in favor of making trouble for Wall Street, but if the future lies in making trouble without creating something more trouble free then the future looks bleak from my perspective. The 99% in order to be affective need to lobby government for constructive legislation to eliminate trouble. Who to lobby, and who will be most inclined to author, and vote for, legislation designed to eliminate trouble is an issue worth considering.

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By drbhelthi, October 27, 2011 at 1:52 pm Link to this comment

pretty damn baffling how anybody can think that it’s some 1% that is responsible
for destroying rain forsets..  pretty damn silly for an adult to say it.  heterochromatic

Decisions to haul trees from the rain-forests by huge wood-processing companies, are made by the leadership, a very few people. 

Yes, it would seem silly, or “pretty damn silly” to a person who labels oneself as “heterochromatic”.

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By heterochromatic, October 27, 2011 at 1:32 pm Link to this comment

——If the much fewer than 1% (.0001%) continue to
- destroy rain forests—-

pretty damn baffling how anybody can think that it’s some 1% that is responsible
for destroying rain forsets..


pretty damn silly for an adult to say it.

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By drbhelthi, October 27, 2011 at 1:20 pm Link to this comment

Could it be that the outrageous per capita overconsumption, large-scale
corporate overproduction and unrestricted overpopulation activities of the
human species worldwide cannot continue much longer on a planet with the size,
composition and ecology of a finite and frangible planet like Earth?         
Steven Earl Salmony,(Unregistered commenter)

If the much fewer than 1% (.0001%) continue to
- destroy rain forests and
- crack the earth of the non-forested regions, grubbing out gas and oil  
- while polluting streams, rivers – even aquifers- and oceans,
- infest Asia with radioactive bullets that deform over 40% of fetuses, and
- create earthquakes and flooding with HAARPS in eight locations on earth,
- radiating North Americans and Europeans with 2.4 Ghz, affecting heartbeat
- and genociding at a rate similar to that of human reproduction….                                                                                 
  . . . . Perhaps.

However, the interesting phase begins when the .0001% begin in-fighting to
determine the pecking order.  Only one person can be dictator.  All others have
to be s-u-b-o-r-d-i-n-a-t-e-s.  Underlings.  The less than.  The “99%”.

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By Shenonymous, October 27, 2011 at 11:15 am Link to this comment

There’s no spite in me at all, What Is Progress, that is a completely
adolescent charge on your part.  I do respect you as a PERSON, or
at least an e-person, else I would not even bother to respond to
your overreaction even though you descend somewhat at times
into blather.  Obviously emotion drives your comments.  I am not
restricting what you say or who you group but I too am free to
assess what you say since this is a public forum.  I often take issue
with the weezers and the allers who include The Everybody in their
criticisms.  I’m afraid you are not equipped to argue finer points
and thus get heated under the collar when challenged. So be it.  If you
do not like my style of argument, you are free to just scroll on by.  Just
a bit of friendly advice, you might learn the art of avoiding fallacies,
though.  This might help if you have any spare time: 
http://www.iep.utm.edu/fallacy/  or if you don’t like that one,
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-common-practice.html
or if you like Wikipedia, well…check out their list.
I would direct you to the several you have committed but I see no
purpose since you are defensively resistant and perhaps wouldn’t
understand.  But the appeal to an ambiguous collective or appeal to
popularity where appealing to The Everybody is appealing to a false
consensus.  And the beat goes on and on and on and on…

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By screamingpalm, October 27, 2011 at 10:34 am Link to this comment

@Shenonymous

I think you misread me, as i do not belive that humans (as a species) are inherently bad or good at all. I do believe that culture plays a big part in that. Nor do I claim to be an expert, it is only my observations, and from being well-traveled. smile

When my ex-wife and I lived in the US, we found ourselves gaining much weight despite eating much less than we did in Italy. I am talking one meal a day… as much as we could afford. When we returned to Italy, we ate three meals a day fit for a king and lost weight. What does this have to do with anything? Everything.

Food in the US is full of preservatives and processed crap, whereas the food in Italy is much more healthy and natural… for example. It wasn’t only ourselves that noticed this phenomenon… everyone in Italy noticed the natural pigment return to our skin after a couple of days of return. It is just another reminder of how the bottom line for corporate America means so much more than the health of its’ citizens. Whereas countries that have a national health care system and an invested interest in the welfare of its’ people really does make a huge difference in the quality of life. As I said before, if offered the opportunity to become an ex-pat, I would snatch it in a heartbeat!

I really cannot feel any pity for Americans, as even faced with such wonderful conditions, would cry for a McDonalds or KFC when living in such a place with the most gourmet of foods unattainable back home. I took advantage of the opportunity. smile

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, October 27, 2011 at 10:10 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous, you said, “.....you commit the same fallacy of grouping EVERYONE!” 

What’s the group I make, if not the larger group of the entire species?  And is it ‘the same fallacy” if I group, rather than divide?  And what would be the fallacy? 

I’m free to clarify what the larger group would be.  That you would charge me of ‘making it up’ (the group) as some sort of proof shows me you ‘argue’ in a pernicious and spiteful and very uncool way. 

Isn’t it obvious (with no need to ‘make it up’) that we people are a group of self-aware upright walking beings, capable of the various deadly sins?  I point out the obvious, that insisting on various divisions within our group allows favors to be dispatched for political support.  Is it not time to re-examine where this mechanism has gotten us?  Are those on the left (including and especially OWS) going to engage in favoritism, as has been done on the right?

At some point, will OWS distinguish themselves as a WORTHY and unique mass movement by devising and proclaiming something NEW in the treatment of people? 

I am a PERSON damnit, not old, young, black, red, white, yellow, male, female, disabled, smart, or dumb (though that last one’s arguable, given how I spend my time).  I am just a person.  None of us is any more or any less than a person.  Money and possessions or some surrogate for status makes any of us any more or less than a human, a person.

Now quit your damn hair-splitting.  One can read every damn book in the library, but if they can’t synthesize something decent from it, keep looking.

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By John Tinker, October 27, 2011 at 9:59 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Great writing. Great topic.

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By Raoul, October 27, 2011 at 9:49 am Link to this comment

You go, Raoul, to Thanksgiving!!!! Maybe we will meet. 
from Terry

Thanks for your support my friend and don’t be too concerned about the mild attacks going on. After going at it for YEARS in hundreds of debates/fights with right wing neocons, any criticism over here, to me, is regarded as love letters. LOL

And if I make it to the macy parade (g), you’ll be able to tell who I am by the gang of cops that will be beating the crap out of me. Just a lame joke on my part. Anyway, thanks again.

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By Shenonymous, October 27, 2011 at 9:22 am Link to this comment

I said, What Is Progress, some humans learned to transcend their
selfishness. To parse a bit better since you seem to have missed it,
transcended their genetic selfishness. There is no disagreement
that the beast Corportocracy and its servant media, has moved us
inexorably toward consumerism, but that’s been the case since
societies moved out of the savannahs into citystates. Nothing new,
but history does show people have rebelled when repression reached
a particular level.  Genetic greed, I agree, is enhanced by nurture,
meaning teaching and a dearth of resources in the environment. If
genes are affected by “local chemistry” or moods of the organism,
those are still inherent qualities and subjective, but the organism is
affected objectively if by external sources such as threats (though
reaction to threats is genetic) or teachings (nurture). We won’t worry
about the fools of which you speak. And while they may not be nice
examples of our species, there are many who are nice, this is what
screamingpalm and I are also arguing about though my part would
appear opposite due to the centrist position I take, humans are neither
too good nor too bad as a whole.  There are many instances of either
trait in humans.

The “bad seed” theory, is fictional. Humans are not born bad, they
are just born human. Some are born with a personality disorder, which
places them with the group born physically unhealthy as it is attributable
to some chemical deficiency in or deformity of brain cells. All animals
can be born physically unhealthy, but what happens to that human baby
is a function of the kind of care that it is given, which is more crucial for
them than other children born in perfect health because their lives are
more tenuous and their physical being reacts to it. Who knows what
physical care and nurturing was given, say, a Hitler, or a Stalin, or a
Mao, a Caligula?  Or a Robespierre who was one of the main driving
forces behind the reign of terror in which mass executions were carried
out, and took the lives of between 18,500 to 40,000 people. Of those
people condemned by his revolutionary tribunals, about 8% were
aristocrats, 6% clergy, 14% middle class, and a whopping 70% were
workers or peasants accused of hoarding, evading the draft, desertion,
counterrebellion, etc. It was mostly ordinary people who were victimized
by the hubris of these discontents (does it say something about a disdain
for humanity if someone takes this man’s name as a blog ID?) There has
been plenty evil women in history as well whose condition at birth is
unknown or whose quality of “nurturing is questionable:” 16th c. Queens
Mary and Elizabeth I daughters of Henry 8, and ferocious female serial
killers and monarchs throughout history too numerous to list.

The point is the range from selflessness to selfishness is not confined to
any ethnic group or nationality, it permeates all humanity. I did’t say it
was a fallacy to group everyone as homo sapiens, you made that one up,
proving what I scored earlier as your mushy logic. Making distinctions of
the type I was referring to indicates a unique ability of humans. You can
disregard it if you like, it would show a lazy ability to think discriminately
(I don’t mean that as a form of bigotry) but to be able to separate things
out in order to judge them on their own merits or defects. You make a
mistake about humanity, it is gullible for a number of reasons and
always will be, many are subject to manipulation but not all are, and
therein lies a fallacy to “lump” all individuals into one great pathetic
heap.  Again, you would be bound to include yourself in your heap.

It is a fine hope that all of the protesters in OWS understand the true
fundamentals of what it means to be human, I declare some of them
do, but that you show you don’t understand what you say they lack,
therefore have no room to judge others the way you do.

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By terry p, October 27, 2011 at 7:41 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

ardee:
“My style, if you will, often hides the humor I intend in my efforts. Thank you for noticing.

I confess to becoming ‘a bit’ upset with such obvious phonies and agitators.” by ardee, October 27 at 4:54 am
——————

Your numb slander of an ally reeks. It smells like the seduction of a traitor. While you’re fumbling for humor a serious revolt against pure corruption of the banksters and the megalomaniacal executives of Wall Street is taking shape.

I didn’t know WSO was ALL about[YOU AND YOUR AUDIENCE]! I still think this blog is a place for free speech! If you don’t demonstrate respect for other opinions how do you expect to be taken seriously. That lack of respect is the same attitude of the banksters in the System of which we all live. Your idea that Raoul being a “phony” is bullshit. This is about everybody including you and Raoul. There is no phony in this revolt. We The People, at least 99.9% would like to have a say—- [hence} the revolution. This blog and others is the only way some can support it. If you want to be a comedian try picking on some known bankster, politician or one of your fellow commentator friends who love to laugh at people not part of their daily click. Don’t f**k with a comrade to the cause. 

Also, ardee, did I detect a bit of bigotry in your [attempt] @ humor? Actually I think I know better. You’ve been an inspirational commentator but your a bit intimidating which silences input. I look forward to your special wit. Sometimes you cross the line. It shouldn’t be for the purpose of silencing people like Raoul because it want work. Raoul is passionate as is most of the people in the streets of Wal Street. As Ralph Nador said, “tear down that wall”.

You go, Raoul, to Thanksgiving!!!! Maybe we will meet. 

tp :?)
PS:PBWY

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By Leefeller, October 27, 2011 at 6:54 am Link to this comment

Watching recent events, I cannot help but recall during Egypt’s populist uprising the 1 percent who rode camels and horses through the protesters to intimidate them.  I cannot help but think of those here who support the bought ansold system, riding our very own political auction on their mass media of camels and horses trying to intimidate the protesters, by calling them names.

I suppose protests as in causes according to Hoffer become what they opposed. But from his premise I recollect a cause must to be a fanatical one, of disenfranchised individuals who become a collective group for a cause, usually a blind cause a dogma with no need of desire to search for truth or facts, the cause of the fanatic. Example of this would be the Koch Brothers Tea Party a program built on emotion, half truths and conjecture. I also recall what happened in Iran when the students took over the American Embassy in Iran and then who really took over. 

Far as I can see with my near sighted visionary qualities and heaped cart full of baggage, my prejudices could be tainting my opinions. As I find the Occupy Wall Street a cause filled to the brim with truth and facts and real concerns of our auctioned government, a broken government, one which seems self serving instead of representative, I support OWS in spirit and they speak for me of the gross disenfranchisement, inequalities and bought by the highest bidder government.

I find discomfort in knowing Hoffers premise which seems to suggest that even in a good cause with truth and facts behind it ‘may’ become nothing more than a fart in history, a groundhog day, always returning to the same same. For example two revolutions in Mexico and look at it now, like a cesspool of corruption. Is it the law of gravity or is something else which always seems to allow the large turds rising to the top. On the other hand the American Revolution was I suppose a good cause which took awhile to revert back to the a royalty of the few?

It is my deluded hope OWS can do much more than get attention and help this nation to get the money out of politics,... I have my toes and fingers crossed!

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, October 27, 2011 at 6:49 am Link to this comment

“Selfishness in not a cornerstone, it is genetic.”  Selfishness is a foundation of our being.  Indeed it is genetic, but like genetic tendencies, let us hope it can be attenuated by environment, an environment, which, as I have pointed out has been under the influence of corporate media, which, has influenced a slow ans steady mass movement toward consumerism and selfishness as a virtue.  So no, selfishness is not purely genetic, like many other characteristics, a genetic pre-disposition is influenced by environment.  Genes are activated by environment and influence the development of the individual.  Genes are ‘expressed’ or not, depending on the local chemistry of the organism, which is certainly affected by mood, threats, nurturing, blah, blah…environment.    Put it this way, we have primordial cornerstone stuff which can easily be shaped into selfishness, jealousy, hubris, or it can go the other way.  And the so-called enlightened who think they are above their programming are fooling themselves and trying to fool others.  Give them power and see what happens.  We are not a nice species and we must come to grips with that. 

By contrast, niceness and kindness and selflessness are not cornerstones, they are a luxury afforded by plenty. 

“Some humans have learned to transcend their selfishness.”  For how long?  The old saying, “If you want to see a persons nature, give them power” has been stated in other ways, but the premise is trans-national, trans-cultural. 

Is it a fallacy to group everyone as homo sapiens?  Indeed I do group (rightly or wrongly is certainly debatable) everyone in our species as having susceptibility to jealousy, gluttony, greed, etc. It think it’s a valid group because it is defined by excluding all other animals, those which do not have the ability to be ‘self aware’ and therefore subject to the seven deadly sins, so to speak.  Though, you might argue various monkeys and apes and perhaps other species show signs of these ugly but natural emotions (drives?). 

I argue that ‘recognizing differences’ among us is a tool to exploit these underlying tendencies, and thereby divide and conquer large chunks of our species by segmentation which allows emotional manipulation. 

“Look! that one’s different”  They are the cause of our troubles! Kill them!”  Recognizing this issue so we can cooperate (legislate) to suppress it is the enlightened path forward in my opinion.  Unfortunately the masters from each end of the political spectrum use various parts of the blade in this two-edged sword to keep the ignorant forever enslaved. 

And so must it be, because from the depths will arise a new parasite class.  It’s sad to see we’re still so gullible as to be manipulated by those who ‘celebrate our differences’ instead of celebrate our commonalities, namely our common needs for a sustainable environment, and I mean ‘environment’ in a very broad sense, including cultural.  We must have a balance which acknowledges difference without favoring or un-favoring it.  Shouting it from the rooftops drowns out the celebration of our common dreams. 

In any case, OWS might be some sort of start, perhaps a false start, but without a broad-based understanding of the true fundamentals of what it means to be human (good bad and ugly), it will just waste time.  In this time, the status quo will continue to exploit our ugly side for their benefit.  Same as it ever was.  Partisanship and patriarchy.

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By screamingpalm, October 27, 2011 at 6:21 am Link to this comment

@Shenonymous

I think the key wording in your response is immigrated. Granted, it is totally my personal experience, but I do feel I have taken a decent sample having lived in various locations in both countries- for a good amount of time. As for what I did not answer, I don’t have an interesting answer for. Perhaps you are right in that I am not fighting my demons with any zeal or meaning, perhaps it is a personal disdain or vendetta I have for American society as a whole. Perhaps I am wondering what the hell my English mother saw in this country and am waiting for something special to happen? Perhaps the Italian woman that I overheard speak about how lovely her flight was from Sicily to Rome was wonderful because of the fact that she had the opportunity to talk to someone on the plane and the American Bob who loved his flight from Rome to DC because the seat next to him was empty and got to sleep the whole way… I don’t know what it all adds up to. OR maybe I do.

Sure I am one person, but day after day, day after day… the same examples pile up and one makes a conclusion I guess. Discredit me as much as you like, however.

I am originally from Virginia, was in the military and lived in various states (also travelled cross-country a few times as a child), now living on the west coast and have seen just about enough of everywhere that anyone could make a logical conclusion from (in my opinion). At least, I know few people that have seen what I have seen.

One conclusion I CAN draw in the US, is that people in blue states are much more self-centric than red staes. Coming from a far-left wing idealogue, it is disheartening.

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By LJMarks, October 27, 2011 at 6:06 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

As a professional writer, let me just say that this is
a remarkable piece of journalism.  Your writing made me
feel like I was right there—and made me wish I
actually had been.

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By Shenonymous, October 27, 2011 at 5:53 am Link to this comment

I won’t comment on what I think is your quotient of intelligence is
screamingpalms, since it would be ad hominem, but not having
lived in Europe does not imply a sheltered life.  I could bore you
with the utter selfishness I’ve found in Italians, and many Europeans
who immigrated to America, and unselfishness in some of them as
well, but I could also bore you with the unselfishness I’ve experienced
in Americans.  The quality of selfishness is not a real measure of the
virtue of a country since you cannot nor have not taken a serious
enough sample of either place.  You are using personal experiences
that are limited in scope to judge entire populations.

What else you don’t do is to address my questions some of which I made
explicit, some implied.

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By screamingpalm, October 27, 2011 at 5:36 am Link to this comment

@ Shenonymous

As intelligent as I think you sound, you also seem very sheltered. I can tell you have never lived in Europe for any amount of time. I could bore you with daily life examples of how life was for me in Italy. My neighbor taking time to help a clueless American set up a bombola heater even though he was late for work and his wife was yelling at him…. etc. But surely you could care less.

It was these day-to-day engagements that created my love for Italy. Something I never experienced in America- and rightly so. People here get fired if they explain that this was why they were late to their boss. AT THE END OF THE DAY… it is a cultural problem, not political.

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By Shenonymous, October 27, 2011 at 5:29 am Link to this comment

How exactly do you face your demons, screamingpalms?  By
moaning and groaning about the quantity of testosterone or
pragmaticism of Americans?  It does matter if one is left or
right, Democrat or Republican.  It is only a self-limiting mind
with self-inflicted myopic vision that does not want to see the
differences and pretend to be sophisticated so at be able to
cavalierly say there is no difference.  It is a pretentiousness that
does not want to make the distinctions.  It is a false notion to lump
all Americans in one tub.  It is just a flimsy argumentative device to
make one’s argument sound universal…and profound.  Now doing
that is what is bull shit.

What Is Progress, you commit the same fallacy of grouping EVERYONE!
You will have to include yourself, you know, since you would be part of
the Everyone class you criticize. Not everyone wants a free ride.  I and
those I know pay for what they get and don’t moan and groan about it. 
I get paid for my work, always did and always will.  Not a highly paid
profession, education, but it is steady, until conservative budget cuts,
that is.  Selfishness in not a cornerstone, it is genetic.  Read your Darwin. 
Some humans have learned to transcend their selfishness.  Are you one
of them?

OWS will not as a movement displace anything.  It will take passionate
individuals and humans in real bodies to act.  OWS is an idea, a
groupthink. It can only motivate real live persons to act to effect
change.  Read your Hoffer.  Good grief.  Get a grip.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, October 27, 2011 at 4:59 am Link to this comment

...(no other choice)...but to shop at a Walmart when the vulturous corporation has locked out any other
market…

Aye, there’s a root of this,  manipulation of the ‘free’ market, through formation of monopoly.  A natural monopoly, due to economy of scale.  Do the 99% have a choice but to buy cheaply, given the costs of other essentials of life?  For instance, inflated housing prices to support who?  THE PARASITE CLASS! 

Say it! The PARASITE CLASS!  Everybody want’s a free ride, and NONE of us can resist the opportunity to feather our beds (at the expense of the general welfare) given any “opportunity”.  This is why we have (had) laws to regulate the accumulation and proper use of wealth.  The general public’s in their ignorance forgot about them and now they’ll pay the price.  They’ll keep dreaming the American dream, awaiting their chance to screw everybody else.

Selfishness is a cornerstone of human nature, and has been cultivated largely through corporate commercial media (thanks Madison Ave).  Instead, we might have nurtured some quasi-nationalist one for all, all for one sort of idea as being the true American Spirit.  Without such a spirit underlying the general population, that is, with the hyper-self-oriented spirit in place of the all-for-one spirit, OWS has no long term chance.  That selfish consumer/materialism/self oriented personality has been cultivated over how many decades?  3? 4? 5?

To succeed, OWS must find a way to permanently displace commercial driven media in major population segments of the US.  If they do this, the chance is great they too will be corrupted by power.  This may indeed be a real revolution which won;t sputter and fade, but let’s hope in another 10, 20 or 30 years we don’t say “meet the new boss, same as the old boss”. 

“We have met the enemy and he is us.”  -Walt Kelly.  There is precious little acknowledgment of, or proposed solutions to this fact in these forums, ar at OWS.  Certainly the continuation of artificial grouping and segmentation by color, creed, age, sexuality is not a good sign of any real enlightenment in the OWS phenomenon.  I remain skeptical and ask, ‘What is Progress’?

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By terry p, October 27, 2011 at 4:56 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Raoul & ardee


I personally think that every public event should be decorated with OWS signs and disobedience until we get rid of the corrupt system we have. That we have a corrupt system is the message and it can’t wait till Spring. If you’re comfortably or uncomfortably retired and afraid of the future don’t blame the protesters blame this corrupt system.

As for going home until Spring when the first cold front settles in, as Ardee suggested in his first comment -  I’d personally hate to see the momentum of this great movement diluted by Winter.

As for the violence—any person not feeling the rage not only of the corrupt system but also the police brutality, don’t have a conscience or clue as I think you, Raoul, do. But, just as that marine in Oakland, who was hit in the head by some kind of projectile fired by the police, held true to none violence. I think he was quoted as saying, “As we say in the Marine Corp and Navy…BRAVO ZULU” referring to his pride of the Oakland occupation he participated in yesterday. He also said, “There is NO honor in brutalizing your own people. The tear gas stung but I have been exposed to worse, including Agent Orange.” I think he has a clue too.

It must be in peace but by all means continue to be.

tp

PS: read “The Web of Debt” by Ellen Brown to learn of the culprit bankers if you don’t know already > http://www.webofdebt.com/

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By ardee, October 27, 2011 at 4:54 am Link to this comment

exploitedtimes, October 26 at 6:16 pm Link to this comment

Ardee you are cracking me up, nice one!

My style, if you will, often hides the humor I intend in my efforts. Thank you for noticing.

I confess to becoming ‘a bit’ upset with such obvious phonies and agitators.

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By screamingpalm, October 27, 2011 at 4:32 am Link to this comment

@ Shenonymous:

Well, in my personal expewrience, I used to always say that Italy without a heart is like America without a dollar. Believe me, I have tried to become an ex-pat and live there, but through my own faults I failed. If I could leave, I most certainly would, but on the other hand I am not a coward and rather face my demons in person.

It is a common theme I hear from Americans, however… to just leave. The same country that touts such exceptionalism as “these colours don’t run” garbage. I know damn well that if it was any of my peers’ hides on the line, there would be a lot of running involved. raspberry

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By Shenonymous, October 27, 2011 at 4:21 am Link to this comment

screamingpalm, October 27 3:12 am – Agreed, it is the unbridled
quantity of testosterone that runs this world, America is certainly
not exempt and might be the prototypical producer of testosterone. 
Essentially, though, pragmatism is what keeps folks alive so can’t
fault pragmatism totally.  It does support Occam’s Razor, but
expedience is also the whore of the tyrants.  It might be that some
of the OWSers have no practical (pragmatic) choice but to shop at a
Walmart when the vulturous corporation has locked out any other
market within a 20-mile radius.  Such is life and Que sera sera.  But
could you please name another country where anyone gives a rat’s
ass as long as whatever bad is happening is not happening to
themselves?  Where in the world are people not selfish? 

Yes, you might as well just die, (sleep in the bed you made for yourself),
love it or lump it, or acquiesce to the life the masters have laid out for
you (as long as in their pragmatism they will let you live, that is).  Or
leave it for some nonexistent utopia,...or rebel.

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By screamingpalm, October 27, 2011 at 3:12 am Link to this comment

Testosterone and/or pragmatism is about the sum of my peers as far as I can tell. It is disgusting, although not surprising. I used to think testosterone was overrated, but perhaps more is needed these days. We FINALLY have people on the streets in harm’s way doing the dirty work for liberty and freedom, and all I can see is ridicule and disdain… with a dose of testosterone induced “when I was younger” bullshit.

The reality is evident. It doesn’t matter left/right, Democrat/Republican. American values are selfishness and greed across the spectrum. No one gives a rat’s ass as long as it isn’t happening to them.

“All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others”.

I salute the efforts of the OWS, but the above is also why I would never join them. (I wonder how many of them shop at Wal-Mart by the way)? At the end of the day, we have made our bed.. time to sleep in it.

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By Raoul, October 27, 2011 at 2:42 am Link to this comment

“As long as it ain’t your own blood, huh kid.”

1. Actually I have been knocked around during my participation in various protests throughout my life. But this isn’t about me, it’s about them.
      and
2. I’ll be 67 next month - thanks for the compliment. LOL

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By Steven Earl Salmony, October 27, 2011 at 2:31 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Much more intellectual honesty, moral courage and humane action is needed. We are about to become a species of 7 billion overconsumers, overproducers and overpopulaters on a finite and frangible planet where its resources are dissipating and environs degrading rapidly.

During my lifetime, when human numbers explode from less than 3 bn to 7+ bn worldwide, many experts may not have known enough about what they were talking about when they spoke of human population dynamics and all causes of the human overpopulation of Earth. Their research appears not to be scientific, but rather issues from ideological or totalitarian thinking, or from specious group-think consensus. Their all-too-attractive thinking, as viewed by greedmongers, is willfully derived from what is politically convenient, economically expedient, socially agreeable, religiously tolerable and culturally prescribed. Widely broadcast and long-accepted thinking of a surprisingly large number of so-called experts in the field of population dynamics appears to have an unscientific foundation and is likely wrong. Their preternatural theorizing about the population dynamics of the human species appears to be both incomplete and misleading. Most disturbing of all, a widely shared and consensually validated theory about a “demographic transition” four decades from now is directly contradicted by unchallenged scientific research. As a consequence, and it is a pernicious consequence, a woefully inadequate thinking and fundamentally flawed theory was broadcast during my lifetime and continues to be broadcast everywhere by the mainstream media as if it is not only science but the best available scientific evidence. The implications of this unfortunate behavior, inasmuch as it appears to be based upon a colossal misperception of what could somehow be real regarding the human population, appear profound. This failure of nerve has slowed the momentum needed to confront a formidable, human-driven global predicament.

In their elective mutism regarding an astonishing error, are first class professional researchers with expertise in population dynamics behaving badly by allowing the “ninety-nine percenters” to be misguided and led down a primrose path by the “one percenters”? The power of silence on the part of knowledgeable human beings with feet of clay is dangerous because research is being denied that appears to shed light upon a dark, non-recursive biological problem, the understanding of which appears vital to future human well being and environmental health. Too many experts appear to be ignoring science regarding the human population and instead consciously through their silence consenting to the leviathan scale and unbridled expansion of global overproduction, overconsumption and overpopulation activities that are being adamantly advocated and relentlessly pursued by greedmongering masters of the universe, the tiny minority among us who are primarily responsible for ravaging the Earth, ruining its environs and reducing its fitness for habitation by the children. If this assessment of human behavior is indeed a fair representation of what is happening on our watch, then the desire to preserve the status quo, mainly the selfish interests of ‘the powers that be’, could be at least one basis for so much intellectually dishonest and morally bereft behavior. Could it be that the outrageous per capita overconsumption, large-scale corporate overproduction and unrestricted overpopulation activities of the human species worldwide cannot continue much longer on a planet with the size, composition and ecology of a finite and frangible planet like Earth?

For human beings to count human population numbers is simple, really simple. The population dynamics of human beings with feet of clay are obvious and fully comprehensible. We have allowed ourselves to be dazzled by the BS of too many demographers, and deceived and victimized by a multitude of economists….

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By heterochromatic, October 26, 2011 at 11:41 pm Link to this comment

here cpd———read the last line

They cleared Occupy Oakland
A first total sweep?
5 am stormtroopers
What say you peep?

then maybe you’ll be able to figure out my comment….

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By cpb, October 26, 2011 at 10:20 pm Link to this comment

“I’ll let you get back to your what saying to your peeps…”

- heterochromatic

If you want another go at whatever that was supposed to mean, by all means feel free.

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By heterochromatic, October 26, 2011 at 9:32 pm Link to this comment

well, cpd, I’ll let you get back to your what saying to your peeps and allow you
scope to lead them toward devising a land of dreams
so various, so beautiful, so new ...to you.

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By cpb, October 26, 2011 at 9:15 pm Link to this comment

@ hetero

how profound

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By heterochromatic, October 26, 2011 at 9:09 pm Link to this comment

cpd——-coming from the person who penned the immortal “5 AM stormtroopers” 

i’m , like, abashed…..toadly abashed.

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By cpb, October 26, 2011 at 9:05 pm Link to this comment

@ heterochromatic

shallow

fail

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By exploitedtimes, October 26, 2011 at 6:16 pm Link to this comment

Ardee you are cracking me up, nice one!

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By ardee, October 26, 2011 at 5:47 pm Link to this comment

Raoul, October 25 at 2:21 pm

As long as it ain’t your own blood, huh kid. You are a detriment to the work necessary to restore our nation’s democracy and your “mythic” cry of having worked long and hard is about as phony as your disappearing act will be when and if the violence begins. No organization worth its salt would have some jackwagon screaming about violence and disruptions.

You are in desperate need of a clue.

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By Not One More!, October 26, 2011 at 2:00 pm Link to this comment

I’m not sure who came up with the title of this article, but it is backwards. I think it should read:

Denunciation and Disruption: The Vision That Drives Wall Street and their Henchmen Police

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By exploitedtimes, October 26, 2011 at 12:31 pm Link to this comment

@exexpat,

I like your style

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By Raoul, October 26, 2011 at 11:24 am Link to this comment

Terry,
I absolutely agree! In fact, when I began my rant I suggested merely disrupting the Macy’s parade since it is so related to the crass commercialism that they foist on the rest of us to keep us on the credit slave train as I call it. Others read things into my epistle that weren’t there at least initailly. Then I defended the actions done by others in Greece and England and had more people jump in and pooh pooh those actions by trying to explain them away with nonsense. Sadly, the cops are resorting to what they do so well - violence (Oakland for example). While I deplore violence I cannot ignore the reality of history which points to it at times. Yeah, I know Ghandi’s approach but weren’t thousands of his people killed by the British before the goals were realized? I don’t want to see that over here.

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By terry p, October 26, 2011 at 6:32 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Raoul & Ardee

There is no competition with the state when it comes to violence. The state will win.

The only chance we have is none violence. That has been proven over and over again with the most popular examples as Gundi and ML
King.

But I don’t see disrupting Thanksgiving parade as a violent thing with signs and the usual none violent chants.

Aren’t you guys on the same team?

tp

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By terry p, October 26, 2011 at 5:59 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I thought this movement would never come. I’d given up.
What amazes me is that, even though the notion is that there is no direction, all the participants know the root of the problem is the likes of the Feds, IMF, the banksters that are too big to jail etc…—- in short that .01 percentile.
tp
PS: Read Ellen Browns “Web of Debt”. She actually has a solution that would benefit every 99 perceter! It is the establishment of a public banking system which would be operated like a public owned utility rather than a casino. Check it out > http://publicbankinginstitute.org/
or http://webofdebt.wordpress.com/

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By Lafayette, October 25, 2011 at 10:25 pm Link to this comment

THE VISION THAT DRIVES OWS?

What vision? Beautifully related tale, but I see no vision.

I see disgust, indignation and outrage - all emotions. But the “vision thing”, it’s gone missing.

The movement must coalesce, I suggest, around a vision of progressive reform of American political governance, which are to blame for the Grand Mess we are in economically.

My contribution to the “Vision Thing”, A Progressive Political Agenda. With the movement in full swing, we must move further on to capitalize upon it.

Winter will drive the movement from the streets as the icy cold cools passions. What then?

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By heterochromatic, October 25, 2011 at 10:18 pm Link to this comment

Lafayette,  the tree of liberty

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By Lafayette, October 25, 2011 at 10:12 pm Link to this comment

KEEP COOL, RAOUL

Raoul: I support actions like the ones we witnessed in Greece and England. What did Jefferson say about the seeds of Democracy sometimes requiring the blood of patriots? It’s a sad fact but it’s based on historical reality.

ThE blood was not as thick as you might think. In England they were young hooligans out on a spree, in Greece it was a guy who had a heart attack.

We do NOT need violence. Which only invites violence in return. Gandhi got it right - peaceful resistance and civil disobedience.

Stay cool, Raoul.

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By heterochromatic, October 25, 2011 at 8:42 pm Link to this comment

By cpb, October 25 at 7:21 pm Link to this comment
They cleared Occupy Oakland
A first total sweep?
5 am stormtroopers
What say you peep?

—————

they cleared Occupy Oakland
so that they could sweep
and pick up the trash
left by those peep


too self-important
and too bold and too brash
to bother remembering
not to crap where they crash

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By dragonrising, October 25, 2011 at 7:47 pm Link to this comment

Really enjoyed your article: you brought the scene to life very well.

BUT…why the silly comments about Michael Moore’s weight and the dismissal of Jesse Jackson and Charles Rangel?

These people have worked long and hard for people’s rights and economic justice - something to celebrate and be grateful for. (Michael Moore was down on Wall Street practically all by himself ten years ago making the same points that are FINALLY being made by hundreds/thousands today).

We need every heart to be opened and every voice to be raised if we really expect to succeed in this ‘revolution’.

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By cpb, October 25, 2011 at 7:21 pm Link to this comment

They cleared Occupy Oakland
A first total sweep?
5 am stormtroopers
What say you peep?

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By randy credico, October 25, 2011 at 6:31 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

i am fine ...i was upset that i was unable to hit the thug that hit me back in the balls…i tried but he didnt have any balls….i was right back in action this week getting arrested with the new bright face of the civil rights movement, Dr. Cornel West…spending 4 hours in a cell with West and a young student helped me to forget about the first arrest…Mr. Ketchum has written a brilliant retrospective anthology of that day’s event…thank Chris

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By gerard, October 25, 2011 at 5:41 pm Link to this comment

Raoul:  I would like to call to your attention that democracy requires a lot more than the “blood of patriots”—for instance, the blood, sweat and tears of millions of mothers, sisters, brothers, sons, daughters, unborn babies,  grandmothers, grandfathers, uncles and aunts who all happened to be caught in the line of fire. Very economical, war!  One bullet kills eight or ten people at every pop!
  Also I suppose I could cite several “peasants’ revolts” and Albighensian Crusades etc. etc. that managed to get rid of a goodly number of troublesome people to no good end whatsoever. How about the “children’s crusade” we are just now trying to wind down in Afghaistan?
  Don’t kid around with that “blood of patriots” bit.
The more violence we can get rid of, the better.

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By gerard, October 25, 2011 at 2:50 pm Link to this comment

Regarding yet another misleading headline (from Truthdig?)—There’s a lot more positive than “denunciation and disruption” behind this Occupy movement. Try hope for a better future, worldwide renunciation of war and social violence.  Try social justice and education for all.  Try a possible ecological future for the planet. Who writes these headlines?

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By Raoul, October 25, 2011 at 2:21 pm Link to this comment

Ardee,
The polls? Which ones? The ones slanted to give the response based on the wording of the question? Besides,I said by the comments I’ve seen elsewhere - Yahoo news comments, Google blog comments, et. al.

And please can the condenscending remarks like ‘little one’. I’ve gone after right wingers for almost a decade and engaged in hundreds of debates and verbal wars with them so show a bit of respect and I’ll try to do likewise. I’ve asked others about my idea regarding the disruption of the parade and they like it. I’m a a Leftist not a liberal. I support actions like the ones we witnessed in Greece and England. What did Jefferson say about the seeds of Democracy sometimes requiring the blood of patriots? It’s a sad fact but it’s based on historical reality.

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By Not One More!, October 25, 2011 at 2:03 pm Link to this comment

Human Rights for All

I hope that the 99% are working to protect the rights of all 99% of the people they represent, including those at the very bottom. Because that is the only way this movement deserves to be successful.

If they are only protesting until they get their benefits, that would be a shame, and what the corporate elite are banking on.

I have a feeling that many individuals there are authentic. Sometimes it does take having a similar experience (like losing a job, losing a house, or knowing someone who has) to realize that there are great injustices in the world, while the 1% get richer.

This is why I cannot, and will not, support the democratic party. You have many there who are pissed about the 1%, but won’t lift a finger to help the bottom 25%. These democrats are the ones who weren’t concerned about excluding the bottom 25% from Obama’s ‘comprehensive’ health bill, the ones who aren’t speaking out against Guantanamo Bay; never felt the need to support Bradley Manning, who cheered when Bin Laden got murdered, who shrugged when Obama bailed out Wall Street.

Now more than ever, we need to stop voting for the lesser of two evils. They only thing you are doing is giving your consent to the status quo.

Our government has failed us, our businesses have failed us, mainstream media has failed us. All while they have been very successful in making themselves richer and leading us further away from peace and justice for all.

Vote Third Party, support the rights of all people, including the bottom 25%. Don’t give your consent.

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By ardee, October 25, 2011 at 1:59 pm Link to this comment

Raoul, October 25 at 6:17 am Link to this comment

Ardee,
Enlighten? Whom? The masses who couldn’t care any less about any of this.

..and we have as proof your word.Debate obviously over.

Perhaps it is YOU who should study a bit of history. Most, if not all, protest movements ending in success were started by a very SMALL amount of people.

Exactly my point, mouthbreather.

Besides, from the comments I’ve seen elsewhere, the masses are already alienated by this magnicent group of people since the masses buy into the lies spouted from the corporatists.

The polls are showing that over 57% of the people polled are in favor of and believe in the goals of the OWS movement.Further, the rapid growth of the movement gives the lie to your opinions. Perhaps, instead of ducking your homework little one, you might read a paper.

I stand by my suggestion - disrupt the parade for openers. It will inspire those of us living in reality regarding the economic mess we’ve been pushed into.

Please, go right ahead, disrupt away. Don’t wait for anyone else, you run right out there and do it.

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By Shenonymous, October 25, 2011 at 1:09 pm Link to this comment

The news is that Goldman-Sachs is ditching a credit union because
the credit union joined the OWS protesters.  Everyone sympathetic to
the protest should withdraw all funds, and close all accounts with
Goldman-Sachs and join the credit union being thrown under the bus,
or one in your vicinity and your investment will be safer.  Members of
credit unions generally own their credit union collectively and earn
interest and pay lower interest on loans, credit cards.  This is
experience talking.  Read for the skinny…
http://tinyurl.com/4y5jcnf
“Goldman Sachs withdraws from sponsoring credit union honoring
Occupy Wall St.” by Andrew Jones, The Raw Story - Sunday, October 23,
2011

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By heterochromatic, October 25, 2011 at 12:54 pm Link to this comment

exploitedtimes,—many thanks for the correction…...I should have indeed typed
Ketchum.

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By EmileZ, October 25, 2011 at 12:53 pm Link to this comment

@ shenonymous

Hmmm…

The big bad republican corporatists or the “Johnny-come lately” (that’s pretty good) thwarted democrat incumbent with a corporatist administration etc.

Compelling.

Stop worrying so much!!!

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By exploitedtimes, October 25, 2011 at 12:42 pm Link to this comment

@heterochromatic,

Do you mean Ketcham, it’s his line and piece…

What’s wrong with beerhalls?

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By heterochromatic, October 25, 2011 at 12:32 pm Link to this comment

hedges—-The future lies in people gathered in the streets in solidarity and
making trouble.——


you belong in a beerhall if you can’t do better than that.

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By Shenonymous, October 25, 2011 at 12:30 pm Link to this comment

What ex-Marine 99%er protester, Brian Phillips who traveled
more than 2800 miles to Zuccotti Park from Washington state,
told Ketcham, “We want to start a new way of living,” Phillips says.
“We want to start a new society. We want to destroy a system that
benefits only the 1%ers. It’s not working for us. It’s putting us in
poverty. We say: ‘No more making laws that benefit corporations
or banks,’” really does say what OWS wants, and clearly. 

But their passion cannot be satisfied until specific ways to achieve
that satisfaction is expressed by come coherent articulation that is
put into action that will effect it, that is, achieve those demands.  For
instance, how to stop the legislators from making laws beneficial to
the Corporatocrats, laws beneficial to the banks,  how can the system
be destroyed that benefits those 1% who have the lopsided bulk of the
nation’s wealth?  How is the toppling of the 1% who have the wealth to
stave off and withstand in their bastions all attacks?  The energy that
has exploded exactly to the degree of anger felt by those out in the
streets across America, the Occupiers, somehow needs to have
something to show for it. 

The phrase, we want to ”take this country back.”  Back from whom? 
From the people? to whom it belonged in the first place, if a country can
belong to anybody!  It has been appropriated by different and opposing
factions and especially of late by the Republicans who somehow insanely
think this country was theirs at one time. It never was, it was always a
country of its citizens.  So there is no taking back, the Occupyers are
standing on a citadel of what always was theirs.  The 99%ers are holding
the ground that has always belonged to them.  The 99%ers have taken it
upon themselves to represent all of the people who are not in the upper
1% wealthy corporate class that also include those Republicans who enact
laws to protect and enrich them even more.

In a few months it will be apparent just how efficacious the
groundswell of Americans has been. It will be in the hands of some-
one, someone as President.  Will it be in the hands of a demagogue
like Herman Cain, or a religious fanatic like Rick Perry and Michelle
Backmann, or a blows-as-the-wind-blows Mitt Romney, or a blow-
hard, self-intersted mean-spirited Gingrich, or any Republican
who will perpetuate the same if not worse state of financial conditions
as what has put the 99%ers in the situation they are in to have had to
rebel to be heard by the politicians and who are being criticized by those
very politicians whose hearing is muffled by their own greed, and other
Right-Wing policies.  Or will Barack Obama be reelected who has been a
Johnny-come-lately to the dance and ought to be criticized for that
tardiness, but who has tried to put in place political action that would
correct the horrible course in which this country finds itself, and in the
face of the most antagonistic Republican Congress any president has
faced in over three-quarters of a century.  It must be acknowledged
that the Republicans have attempted to thwart him at every single
corner of government business, be it the wars, the economy, jobs,
healthcare, education everything regardless of what it was.  It is clear
as day.  There were crises upon crises that the Republicans could have
helped but they only obstructed for their single tunnel-visioned purpose
of defeating Obama in 2012.

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By exploitedtimes, October 25, 2011 at 11:38 am Link to this comment

‘vilifying them as “commies"and “anarchists” as if those really were insults.’

Nice line Ardee and true.

But it isn’t anarchy as long as cops bust heads and the security state remains in control. As another poster mentioned, the management tactics include agent provocateurs and these are watching and waiting for the green light and when they get it, there will be public casualties and private benefits like everything else.

Remember MacArthur and his style of dealing with protests? We’ll likely see the modern versions of MacArthur soon enough when corporations unleash the toys at their disposal on the citizens.

But that will be the first bloody victory of the movement and hopefully not the last. The future won’t be any prettier than the past; history proves it is a long and ugly road ahead if it does get started. We’ll see if it does get started.

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By exploitedtimes, October 25, 2011 at 11:13 am Link to this comment

@ Ardee,

  ‘vilifying them as “commies"and “anarchists” as if those really were insults.’

Great line and true.

Unfortunately it can’t really be anarchy as long as cops are busting heads and the security state is prevailing and keeping order. What would MacArthur do with these protesters today, with all that technology at his disposal?

We’ll see. The corporations are loaded with MacArthurs just waiting to break out the toys. Another poster mentioned management tactics and agent provocateurs; these are crawling everywhere ready to pop. They’re watching and waiting for the green light, and when it comes, there will be public casualties and private benefits like everything else.

But that will be a minor victory for the movement as a whole because there are only two ways it can go: escalate or disappear. Whatever concessions are ‘given’ will be bullshit, anything real needs to be taken. The future won’t be any prettier than the past. There’s a long and ugly way to go if it does get started.

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By gerard, October 25, 2011 at 10:32 am Link to this comment

Tnanks for the straightforward, honest, humanly-felt report!  The marine sums it up exactly:

“We want to start a new society. We want to destroy a system that benefits only the 1 percenters. It’s not working for us. It’s putting us in poverty. We say: ‘No more making laws that benefit corporations or banks.’ ”

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By litlpeep, October 25, 2011 at 10:03 am Link to this comment

RE: “How the toppling of the parasites is functionally to be accomplished, the machinations needed to smash their power and put them on a rocket ship to an airless planet, is as yet unknown.”

It would only take about 800-900 junker buses to ship those alien 1% US parasites to the foreign deserts of East Texas, where the arrogant Perrians and even more arrogant Bushes would likely welcome them into their nascent army’s re-poising itself to again invade the 99% US.

Make sure the buses are junkers Greyhound and Trailways no longer wants.  Aim them in such a way that when they break down, it will at least be in southern Oklahoma.

We know Schumer and Cuomo are on the side of those overdue for “shaming and ridicule.”

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By DrSorders, October 25, 2011 at 9:22 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Reads less like Les Miserables and more like Tale of Two Cities as written by the DeFarges, and not reflective of the best spirit expressed at these protests.  Why the cruelty toward Michael Moore?  He was calling attention to all this, and calling for something like this, when most of the protesters where splitting their vote between Rueben Studdard and Clay Aiken —not because they were young, but because it didn’t effect them yet, it wasn’t yet their house, their student debt, their cracked skull.  We can be together.

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By Leefeller, October 25, 2011 at 8:58 am Link to this comment

Wow a great article, am I bias? I find this peace of reporting objective in the sense it is not bought and sold, nor does Ketcham seem to portray his personal pet peeves or agendas. I felt like I was involved and actually there. Thank You!

Please bring us more! I found the people and their aspirations so damn emotionally inspiring.

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By Oceanna, October 25, 2011 at 8:29 am Link to this comment

It’s a gem of a piece of journaling or journalism.

Articles like Ketcham’s are fresh air on TD, where the majority of pieces are
bipartisan editorials that I find noxious. 

I’m happy to see genuine reporting from the trenches in the real world.  Onward,
Occupiers!

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By caped amigo, October 25, 2011 at 8:23 am Link to this comment

Mr. Ketcham, it reads like Les Miserables. Thank you for your involvement and your sharing. This is an inspiring moment in history, one that displays the best of timber in humankind.

There have been few times in my life that I have been proud to be an American. This is one of them.

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By EmileZ, October 25, 2011 at 7:30 am Link to this comment

@ Jenny Sidal

“Well you see I think that in the intellectual domain of political action, that is in the domain of trying to construct a vision of a just and free society on the basis of some notion of human nature… In that domain we face the very same problem that we face in immediate political action. For example to be quite concrete… alot of my own activity has to do really with the Vietnam war, and a good deal of my own energy goes into civil disobediance. Well, civil disobediance, in the United States, is an action undertaken in the face of considerable uncertainties about its effect. For example it threatens the social order in ways which one might argue might bring on facism. That would be very bad for America, for Vietnam, for ???, for everyone else, so there is a danger that is one danger in undertaking this concrete act. On the other hand there is agreat danger in not undertaking it, namely if you don’t undertake it , the society of Indochina will be torn to shreds by American power, and in the face of those uncertainties one has to choose a course of action.”

- the dashing young Noam Chomsky (who is quite calm/steady/reasoning in a conversation/debate with Michael Foucalt circa 1971.

Chomsky has been a calm steady voice of reason for decades and he supports and is excited about (I hope I am not putting words in his mouth) OWS.

So we all have to choose. I don’t believe OWS is trying to provoke violence, but civil disobediance requires a physical presence, and the spectrum of voices allowed into the corporate media and political debate is quite intentionally limited.

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By Jenny Sidal, October 25, 2011 at 6:51 am Link to this comment

Hi im a newbie, i feel a need to explain that whatever goes down with OWS, is sadly going to play into the hands of the ‘unseen elites’.

The fact of this all being so easy to bring in a new law against rights to demonstrate, undercover of, ‘to prevent state vandal destruction’ and/or ‘protect the non involved’.

It, as all laws, will come with enforced actions to not be able to fight back. Probably via military involvement.
NWO is being created and manifesting, see beyond this demonstration for its very deliberately intended backstage.

Have you not seen the paid actors that have been seen as both police and protesters (go google ‘alternative news OWS’ as i do not have link info).

Remember the only way to beat the oppression is to out wit it, the physical approach wont do anything but give away what little we have left.

People in numbers scares the government, not via violence though, violence is easy to put bullets into, voices in calm steady, intelligent form with reasoning to back up the why?/how?/who? Etc is the only way, to what breaks the spines of leaders.

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By EmileZ, October 25, 2011 at 6:26 am Link to this comment

That was a great piece, but who is really denunciating and disrupting and who has vision???

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