Top Leaderboard, Site wide
October 22, 2014
Truthdig: Drilling Beneath the Headlines
Sign up for Truthdig's Email NewsletterLike Truthdig on FacebookFollow Truthdig on TwitterSubscribe to Truthdig's RSS Feed

Get Truthdig's headlines in your inbox!






Mad Pilgrimage of the Flesh


Truthdig Bazaar
History’s Greatest Heist

History’s Greatest Heist

By Sean McMeekin
$27.36

Head Cases

Head Cases

By Michael Paul Mason
$16.50

more items

 
Report

Breaking the Taboo: Why We Took On the Israel Lobby

Email this item Email    Print this item Print    Share this item... Share

Posted on Oct 4, 2007
John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen M. Walt.
israellobbybook.com

“The Israel Lobby” authors John J. Mearsheimer (left) and Stephen M. Walt.

(Page 3)

What is the lobby’s impact on U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East?

In Part II of the book, we show how the lobby has encouraged the United States to take Israel’s side in its long struggle with the Palestinians, and made it more difficult for the United States to help bring this conflict to a close. The lobby—and especially the neoconservatives within it—also played a key role in the decision to invade Iraq in 2003, although other factors (such as the September 11 attacks) were also critical in making the decision for war. The lobby has successfully pressed the Bush administration to adopt a more confrontational stance toward Syria and Iran, and encouraged it to back Israel to the hilt during the 2006 war in Lebanon. 

Why are these policies not in America’s national interest?

Backing Israel’s harsh treatment of the Palestinians has reinforced anti-Americanism around the world and almost certainly helped terrorists recruit new followers. U.S. and Israeli policy also led directly to Hamas’ growing popularity and its victory in the Palestinian elections, which made a difficult situation worse and a long-term peace settlement even more elusive. The Iraq war is a strategic disaster that has damaged America’s standing and strengthened Iran’s regional position, and now provides other terrorists with an ideal training ground. The Lebanon war enhanced Hezbollah’s position, weakened the pro-American Siniora government in Beirut, and further tarnished America’s image throughout the region. A hard-line approach to Iran helped bring President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to power but failed to halt Iran’s nuclear ambitions, and threatening Syria led Damascus to stop helping the United States against al Qaeda. None of these developments has been good for the United States.

Advertisement

Square, Site wide
What is the impact on Israel’s long-term interests?

U.S. aid has indirectly subsidized Israel’s attempt to colonize the Occupied Territories, a policy that many Israelis now see as a strategic and moral disaster. Yet the lobby has made it effectively impossible for Washington to convince the Israeli government to abandon this misguided policy. The lobby’s influence has also made it harder for the United States to persuade Israel to seize opportunities—such as a peace treaty with Syria, the 2002 Saudi peace initiative, or full and complete implementation of the Oslo agreements—that would have saved Israeli lives and shrunk the number of enemies it still faces. The invasion of Iraq—which Israel and the lobby both supported—turned out to be a major boon for Iran, the country many Israelis fear most. And by pressing Congress and the Bush administration to back Israel’s ill-conceived response to Hezbollah in the summer of 2006, the lobby unwittingly facilitated a policy that damaged Israel significantly.

Do you think the upcoming 2008 presidential campaign will provide a chance for the Israel lobby’s influence to be discussed?

Regrettably, no. The candidates will undoubtedly disagree on a wide array of domestic and foreign-policy issues: health care, education, taxes, the environment, what to do in Iraq, how to deal with a rising China, etc. But the one issue on which there will be virtually no debate is the question of whether the United States should continue to give Israel unconditional backing. Even though almost everyone recognizes that U.S Middle East policy is a disaster, no serious candidate is going to suggest anything other than steadfast and largely unconditional support for Israel. Indeed, all the major candidates (Clinton, Edwards, McCain, Obama, Romney, etc.) have already expressed their strong and uncritical backing for Israel, even though the campaign is just getting underway. Not only is this situation bad for the United States, it is also not good for Israel. The United States would be a better ally if its leaders could make support for Israel more conditional and if they could give their Israeli counterparts more candid and critical advice without facing a backlash from the Israel lobby.

What in your view should the U.S.-Israel relationship look like? What should the lobby’s role be?

The United States has three strategic interests in the Middle East: maintaining the flow of Persian Gulf oil to world markets, discouraging the spread of WMD, and reducing anti-American terrorism from this region. It is also committed to Israel’s survival, but on moral rather than strategic grounds. Instead of garrisoning the region with its own troops or attempting to transform the entire region, the United States should act as an “offshore balancer.” The United States does not need to control the Middle East itself; it merely needs to prevent any hostile power(s) from controlling the region. To do that, Washington should strive to maintain a balance of power in the region and intervene with its own forces only when local actors cannot uphold the balance themselves, as it did when it liberated Kuwait in 1991.

As part of this strategy, the United States would begin to treat Israel like a normal state, rather than as the 51st state. Israel is nearly 60 years old, increasingly prosperous, and now officially recognized by the vast majority of the world’s nations. The United States should deal with it as it does with other democracies: backing Israel when its policies are consistent with U.S. interests, but opposing it when they are not. And the United States should use its considerable leverage to fashion a durable two-state solution, as it is the only outcome that is consistent with U.S. values and with the long-term interests of both America and Israel.

Achieving this shift will require overcoming the opposition from the most powerful groups in the lobby, like AIPAC and the Conference of Presidents. This goal can be achieved if there is a more open debate about the lobby’s role in shaping U.S. policy, more widespread awareness of Israel’s history and behavior, and a candid discussion within America’s pro-Israel community. Instead of trying to weaken or counter the lobby, one may hope that moderate pro-Israel organizations will become more influential, and that the leading organizations realize that the hard-line positions they have espoused in the past have been counterproductive. If these groups can bring their impressive influence to bear in more constructive ways, U.S. policy will be more in line with its national interests, and better for Israel too.


New and Improved Comments

If you have trouble leaving a comment, review this help page. Still having problems? Let us know. If you find yourself moderated, take a moment to review our comment policy.

By Inherit The Wind, November 12, 2007 at 5:12 am Link to this comment

Non Credo on 11/11 at 9:30 pm
(470 comments total)

from #113002 by Inherit The Wind on 11/11 at 8:16 pm:

“Racist, sexist, and, of course, shallow as a puddle in the hot sun.”
————

Perhaps, ITW, but no more racist than your practice of calling Robert “Abu Robert” by way of insulting him.

It conveys “your opinions are so contemptible, you must be an Arab.” It’s so you, ITW.

“Robert” has been calling me lots of names a WHOLE lot longer than that, NC.  Or doesn’t that count? That’s OK, that he’s been calling me “Windbag”, “ITWZ” and other crap for months? He’s accused me of being a troll, of actually being the same person as lilmamzer and all sorts of other garbage, of being an ultra-orthodox zionist. He’s even crapped on me about being a father and choosing to take care of my kids.

He’s a lying POS who attacks ANYONE who disagrees with him with invective and name calling.  It ain’t no innocent you’re defending.

You try to set yourself up as “holier-than-thou” but your own bias is plain as day.  You want to get into this? We can if you want, but I’ve TRIED to re-establish a semi-civilized dialog with you and I was hoping you’d want to keep it that way.

Your choice, but “Robert” seems fully capable of hurling his own invective, without your help.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, November 11, 2007 at 9:16 pm Link to this comment

PatrickHenry on 11/11 at 8:01 pm
(284 comments total)

A bitch and obviously a fruit loop as well.

******************

Clearly you are finally hitting your peak in the riposte dept!

ROFLMAO—is this the BEST you can come up with?

Racist, sexist, and, of course, shallow as a puddle in the hot sun.

Report this
PatrickHenry's avatar

By PatrickHenry, November 11, 2007 at 9:01 pm Link to this comment

A bitch and obviously a fruit loop as well.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, November 11, 2007 at 8:55 pm Link to this comment

quick to call someone a nazi when they demonstate the all too nazi like attitudes.

You betcha, BenedictArnold! You and Aryan-Tologist and “Robert” all demonstrate “all too nazi like attitudes”, so I call ‘em like I see ‘em!

Does it give you some kind of weird sexual thrill to imagine that I’m a woman, rather than a man? Does it excite you? Do you figure if you call me “she” it somehow makes you superior to me?  I guess like all nazis you think men are by nature superior to women and you dream to be able forcibly grudge f*** me, as if that’s some sort of “proof” of your masculinity.

Ladies, should I be insulted to be thought a woman? No? I didn’t think so! Good! I’m honored!

Benedict, you continue to prove you are exactly what I say you are.  Your insults are like water off a duck’s back and just give me the opportunity to show, once again, that you are a racist bigot, and now, chauvinist.

Report this
PatrickHenry's avatar

By PatrickHenry, November 11, 2007 at 7:04 pm Link to this comment

I see passing wind is up to her usual jewish supremist dogma other than spewing hate and offering no substantial imput to the conversation.  She is cut from the same cloth as Lefty and Lilmamzer the other Trolls who frequent this site who also are quick to call someone a nazi when they demonstate the all too nazi like attitudes.

Report this

By Howard, November 11, 2007 at 5:54 pm Link to this comment

RE:  #112934 by Inherit The Wind on 11/11 at 1:17 pm

Lovely, ITW;  well said !!

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, November 11, 2007 at 2:17 pm Link to this comment

Aretologist on 11/11 at 9:17 am
(31 comments total)

Inherit The World (As in “Yee Shall Inherit the World”) 65 registered - 6,500 unregistered comments

I’m just a scientist observing a school of 300 million fish. All the fish believe they live in a “democracy” but after analyzing the “democracy” it turns out that all the fish are invariably doing only “what is good” for just a very small minority of the fish - just 2% of the fish.

You are no more a scientist than Hitler’s eugenics experts were scientists.  Biological Racism is not science, and you can’t make it into one.

I have simply noticed something “fishy” in this “democracy” called America - and I’m modestly commenting about it.

Yeah. It’s obvious you hate it.

I’ve noticed that the 2% minority also effectively control the “democracy” - to such a degree that one member of the minority was compelled - by the minority’s astonishing success - to bluster

Of course you have no facts to back this up—but you don’t need them

“We own America (the democracy) - and America knows it.” Israeli PM Ariel Sharon

A much quoted statement by all you neo-nazis, but there’s NO substantiation that this actually occurred—just all the same tin-foil-hat nut blogs citing it like it was a fact—which it’s not.  Go ahead and Google it and you won’t find ONE legitimate verification.  It’s just another neo-nazi lie.

If Germany “owned” America today - and represented just 2% of the population - and America (as it does today) pretended to be a genuine democracy - I would be doing exactly what I’m doing today.

I’m sure you would. You’d be whipping up hatred for Jews just like you are now.

That would have been my obligation as an ethical human being.

.....‘scuse me—I just did a spit-take—coffee’s everywhere!

The Nazis were certain they were fulfilling their ethical obligation to humanity by murdering 11 million souls. That didn’t make genocide ethical.

You seem angry at me or threatened by my comments.

Damn straight.  I know what Nazis did to 6 million Jews and 5 million other “undesirables”.

Am I doing something unethical when I leave comments regarding AIPAC and America’s subservience to Israel?

Not if you consider lying ethical.

You’re not threatened by any report or comment here at truthdig that ”isn’t good for the Jews” - are you?

Not if it’s true.  I welcome VALID criticism of Israel.

You’re not doing anything unethical - are you?

You’re not trying to obfuscate or bury any comment that may contain the truth here at truthdig - are you?

Nope and nope. I’d be delighted if you’d actually post some truth instead of the bullshit nazi biological racism you post.

As you know negative stereotyping of the opposition - calling people Nazi’s, “self-hating Jews”, anti-Semite - is a powerful method of controlling people. It is one of the tools a highly dedicated minority invariably uses to discourage
people from speaking out and telling the truth.

It is a very effective, compelling technique to cow people and disincline them from opposing you.

Manipulation and domination of a person’s mind is one of the methods some employ to overpower and control the people.

No need to tell me your “secrets” and methods. I’m well aware of the propaganda and recruitment techniques long employed by the neo-nazi groups in America.

Report this

By Aretologist, November 11, 2007 at 10:17 am Link to this comment

Inherit The World (As in “Yee Shall Inherit the World”)  65 registered -  6,500 unregistered comments

I’m just a scientist observing a school of 300 million fish. All the fish believe they live in a “democracy” but after analyzing the “democracy” it turns out that all the fish are invariably doing only “what is good” for just a very small minority of the fish - just 2% of the fish.

I have simply noticed something “fishy” in this “democracy” called America -  and I’m modestly commenting about it.

I’ve noticed that the 2% minority also effectively control the “democracy”  - to such a degree that one member of the minority was compelled -  by the minority’s astonishing success - to bluster

“We own America (the democracy)  - and America knows it.”  Israeli PM Ariel Sharon

If Germany “owned” America today - and represented just 2% of the population - and America (as it does today) pretended to be a genuine democracy - I would be doing exactly what I’m doing today.

I would have noticed the 2% minority, observed the debauching of reality (via their control of the mass media), comprehended the inculcation and conditioning of the people (and the coercing by AGPAC) and speaking out about it. I would have noticed that the Germans - just 2% of the population - were actually overseeing the whole country behind a democratic “smoke screen.”

I would be complaining and speaking out about the unprincipled activities of AGPAC - and endeavor to draw attention to the aberrant fact that just 2% of the population effectively “owned” the country.

That would have been my obligation as an ethical human being.

Why do you think I would be doing something amoral if then - when Germans “owned” the country instead of the Jews?

You seem angry at me or threatened by my comments.

Am I doing something unethical when I leave comments regarding AIPAC and America’s subservience to Israel?

You’re not threatened by any report or comment here at truthdig that ”isn’t good for the Jews”  - are you?

You’re not doing anything unethical -  are you?

You’re not trying to obfuscate or bury any comment that may contain the truth here at truthdig - are you?

As you know negative stereotyping of the opposition - calling people Nazi’s, “self-hating Jews”, anti-Semite - is a powerful method of controlling people. It is one of the tools a highly dedicated minority invariably uses to discourage
people from speaking out and telling the truth.

It is a very effective, compelling technique to cow people and disincline them from opposing you.

Manipulation and domination of a person’s mind is one of the methods some employ to overpower and control the people.

The highly dedicated minority’s inevitable objective is invariably to turn the manipulated person into their manipulator, the inculcated person into their brain-washer, and the subjugated people into their de facto conquerors.

This is probably what the Germans would have done to us too had they been perspicacious enough to establish as power a lobby as AIPAC in America and had been intelligent enough to gain control of the mass media in the 1930s.

Report this

By Howard, November 11, 2007 at 8:57 am Link to this comment

#112892 by lodipete on 11/11 at 7:46 am

Well said;  ok with me. 
Let us get back to the topice here of Mertheimer and Walt’s book !

—————————————————-
Walter Russell Mead
From Foreign Affairs, November/December 2007
The Israel Lobby. John J. Mearsheimer, Stephan M. Walt

“” Also disappointing is their fairly conventional account of the relationship between neoconservatives and hard-line Israeli thinking. Mearsheimer and Walt present neoconservative thought as entirely in sync with—and, indeed, at the service of—Israeli security interests. There are, however, some important differences between neoconservative doctrine and the views of conservative Israelis—in particular about Arabs. The neoconservative belief that the Arab world teems with Lockean democrats ready to build stable and liberal modern states once the dictators are removed could hardly be further from conventional Israeli views about the political culture and developmental possibilities of their neighbors. The Israeli defense establishment was deeply skeptical of neoconservative hopes for a democratic renaissance in the Middle East following the removal of Saddam Hussein. In short, the relationship between neoconservative thought and the worldview of the Israeli right is much more complex than the simplistic picture painted here.””

Report this

By lodipete, November 11, 2007 at 8:46 am Link to this comment

OK,enough is enough of Hadassah Howard & Ramadan Robert. Why don’t you 2 guys? meet somewhere and kill each other off. Now that would eliminate a lot of propoganda BS from this site for a change.

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, November 11, 2007 at 6:53 am Link to this comment

#112856 by Tony Wicher on 11/11 at 1:05 am
(360 comments total)

Re #112669 by Howard on 11/09 at 8:46 pm
(191 comments total)

Re #112663 by Robert on 11/09 at 8:14 pm

“I watched the video, but he’s not an Orthodox Jew, but an actor hired with guys behind him holiding Iranian flags.”
—————————————————————————
Yeah, Howard, you figured out what kind of flags those are yet? I’ll save you the trouble. Those are Palestinian flags. True Torah Jews are friends of the Palestinians. They are descended from Jews living in Palestine before the Zionists arrived. They are Palestinian Jews. Those who live inside Israel are conscientious objectors. They will not fight in the IDF. I love them. They remind me of the Amish. They may be quaint and old-fashioned, but they are beautiful people. See how gentle they are compared with the gross, ranting Zionist.
====================================

Tony…Great comment! Thanks.

Report this

By Howard, November 11, 2007 at 4:39 am Link to this comment

#112856 by Tony Wicher on 11/11 at 1:05 am

Ok , Tony;  I stand corrected on the flag.  At least I knew what nice group of people they were from.

But what is the point ?  That some people are critical of their government? Very democratic state is what it shows. Not like Egypt, Jordan, Iran, Syria, etc. Where are the protests against the gov’t in those countries ??

Let’s take a look at some more serious videos.  Shows being on the receiving end of the rockets that are being sent into Israel every single day from Gaza.. 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ggKOjY_daiM

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, November 11, 2007 at 2:05 am Link to this comment

Re #112669 by Howard on 11/09 at 8:46 pm
(191 comments total)

Re #112663 by Robert on 11/09 at 8:14 pm

“I watched the video, but he’s not an Orthodox Jew, but an actor hired with guys behind him holiding Iranian flags.”
—————————————————————————
Yeah, Howard, you figured out what kind of flags those are yet? I’ll save you the trouble. Those are Palestinian flags. True Torah Jews are friends of the Palestinians. They are descended from Jews living in Palestine before the Zionists arrived. They are Palestinian Jews. Those who live inside Israel are conscientious objectors. They will not fight in the IDF. I love them. They remind me of the Amish. They may be quaint and old-fashioned, but they are beautiful people. See how gentle they are compared with the gross, ranting Zionist.

Report this

By Howard, November 10, 2007 at 9:00 pm Link to this comment

#112815 by Aretologist on 11/10 at 3:49 pm
““The Jewish people represent only 2% of the population but possess 98% of the brains in Washington. “
=====================================================
===================================
Wow, is it that high a percentage, you say ? .  Did not know that. !  Imagine.

Some of it must have rubbed off overseas in that tiny country to cause this too.

1. The cell phone was developed in Israel by Israelis working in the Israeli branch of Motorola, which has its largest development center in Israel.

2. Most of the Windows NT and XP operating systems were developed by Microsoft-Israel

3. The Pentium MMX Chip technology was designed in Israel at Intel. Both the Pentium-4 microprocessor and the Centrino processor were entirely designed, developed, and produced in Israel.

4. The Pentium microprocessor in your computer was most likely made in Israel.


5. Voice mail technology was developed in Israel.

6. Both Microsoft and Cisco built their only R&D;facilities outside the US in Israel

7. The technology for the AOL Instant Messenger ICQ was developed in 1996 by four young Israelis.


8. According to industry officials, Israel designed the airline industry’s most impenetrable flight security. US officials now look to Israel for advice on how to handle airborne security threats.
9. Israel’s $100 billion economy is larger than all of its immediate neighbors combined

10. Israel has the highest percentage in the world of home computers per capita

11. Israel has the highest ratio of university degrees to the population in the world


12. Israel produces more scientific papers per capita than any other nation by a large margin — 109 per 10,000 people — as well as one of the highest per capita rates of patents filed

13. In proportion to its population, Israel has the largest number of startup companies in the world. In absolute terms, Israel has the second largest number of startup companies after the US (3,500 companies mostly in hi-tech).

14. With more than 3,000 high-tech companies and startups, Israel has the highest concentration hi-tech companies in the world — apart from the Silicon Valley, US.

15. Israel is ranked #2 in the world for venture capital funds right behind the US

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, November 10, 2007 at 8:18 pm Link to this comment

Aretologist on 11/10 at 3:49 pm
(30 comments total)

What if the Germans had been as intelligent as Jew’s are today and had established a powerful political lobby with lots of money and influence in America - AGPAC - in the 1930s?

And had also been astute enough to take effective control of our mass media?

******************

I know one thing that would have happened: You’d be happily Sieg Heil’ing down the street in your brown shirt boots and swastika, looking for Jews to beat up or kill.

Report this

By Aretologist, November 10, 2007 at 4:49 pm Link to this comment

What if the Germans had been as intelligent as Jew’s are today and had established a powerful political lobby with lots of money and influence in America -  AGPAC - in the 1930s?

And had also been astute enough to take effective control of our mass media?

Would the world today be different?  Would Israel exist? Wouldn’t Germany - instead of Israel “own” America today?

Would our politicians then have possessed enough intelligence and more backbone to resist AGPAC than they demonstrate today against AIPAC?

How could they have resisted as powerful a lobby as AIPAC is today then and not be able to today?

The German’s AGPAC would have coerced our politicians and forced them to ignore the plight of the Jews - just as AIPAC today compels them to ignore the plight of the Palestinians.

Germany’s PR agent - our mass media then - would have corrupted, debauched reality to such an extent that wrong would be right - and Germany’s “crimes of against humanity” against the Jews - would have been overlooked by the mass media. Just like our current mass media overlooks Israel’s crimes against the Palestinians.

The Jewish people’s plight then would have been Ignored - not only by our politicians -  but also by the vast majority of America - and for the same reason the majority of Americans ignore the plight of the Palestinians - inculcation and conditioning by Germany’s PR agent - our mass media.

Wouldn’t the Jews have thus been forced by our 100% partiality to the Germans -  to react?

Jewish terrorists bombed the King David Hotel in Jerusalem in 1946, killing 90 innocent people to send a message. They also assassinated the UN’s Special Representative in 1948 to make a point.

What if Jews had bombed an American hotel - to send a message and to make a point about America’s support of the Germans?

Wouldn’t the Jews have been justified? Wouldn’t it have been wrong if we had backed the Germans in their crimes against the Jews just as we back Israel’s crimes against the Palestinians?

Wouldn’t the Jews have been justified to retaliate against a country that always did what was “good for the Germans” -  because our mass media then had inculcated and conditioned us to support Germany?

Just as the mass media today has inculcated and conditioned us to support Israel all the time.

And wouldn’t America - for the same reasons - inculcation and coercion by the Germans -  have completely denied the real reasons why Jews bombed the hotel?

Just as we deny the real reasons for 9-11 - i.e., Israel’s crimes against the Palestinian people.

Would anyone - except maybe some “self-hating” Germans -  have dared speak out then?  Against the country that “owned” America?

Shouldn’t more professors than a handful of “self-hating” Jews - be curious enough about the oddity - that 2% of a democratic country can control the other 98%  - through control of the mass media and a powerful lobby - to investigate the aberration?

And isn’t it time our politicians grew up a little and quit relying on Jewish brains all the time?

The Jewish people represent only 2% of the population but possess 98% of the brains in Washington.

Isn’t anyone curious why?

Or is just about everybody in academia so “owned” or “conditioned” or so pusillanimous that they can’t even allow themselves to think about it?

Report this

By Howard, November 10, 2007 at 1:16 pm Link to this comment

#112762 by Robert on 11/10 at 9:17 am

Howard…who are you trying to deceive here? These Orthodox Jews are NOT actors.
====================================

Now, Robert, Be Nice;  notice the construction equiipment in background.  Most likely protesting against building in or near their ground.

And if not, notice that all the videos special for UTUBE when watching that one are under the heading of “Feee palestine”.  Some agenda special for cameras, perhaps?

Shall we show the videos showing the rockets arriving daily, I repeat, daily, from Gaza? Little more dangerous than words and stones, eh??

Here they are of the rockets, from a schoolyard in Gaza, no less !!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Bf0fAyLmosw

And I’ll ask again if you can answer .  What point are you trying to prove, anyway? That some Israelis are critical of their government? Very democratic state is what it shows. Not like Egypt, Jordan, Iran, Syria, etc. Where are the protests against the gov’t in those countries ??

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, November 10, 2007 at 12:58 pm Link to this comment

Aretologist on 11/10 at 8:28 am
(29 comments total)

In1972 Sen William Fulbright said America was “subservient” to Israel and bore “a very great share of the responsibility for the continuation of Middle East violence.” Fulbright said that “The Israelis control politics in Congress and in the Senate.” AIPAC ousted Fulbright from the Senate. Confirming that AIPAC was responsible for Fulbright’s defeat, a former head of AIPAC boasted:  “The Jews in America gathered to oust Senator Percy and the American politicians got the message.”

******************

Aryan-tologist, like “Robert” is using the old trick.  Print a lie, then when it’s refuted, print it again.  And again, and again.  No matter how many times it’s refuted, print it again.  Be persistent and sooner or later, people will accept that lie as the truth. Goebbels spelled it out.  The christo-fascist right used it to convince America that the media had a liberal bias, an EXTREME liberal bias that needed Fox Noize Agit-Prop to “balance” it.

It’s still a lie.  Fulbright didn’t have to worry about the Jewish vote in Arkansas—there weren’t enough to count. Yet this lie persists as “evidence” of the Jewish influence.  AIPAC didn’t even exist then so how could they brag about it?

Nazi racists like Aryan-tologist will say ANYTHING to hurt their enemy, true or false, doesn’t matter. And they’ll say it 10 times, 100 times, or a million times.  That’s how they work.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, November 10, 2007 at 12:49 pm Link to this comment

ITZW…JUST KEEP HOWLING IN THAT ZIONIST WIND…ALL THAT ZIONIST STENCH HAS NO WHERE TO GO BUT IN THAT ZIONIST BOX AND THAT IS WHERE YOUR HEAD IS LOCKED IN THERE FOR EVER…HASBARA CLOWN !

ITZW…DON’T FORGET TO TAKE YOUR MEDICATIONS; YOUR SYMPTOMS ARE SCATTERED ALL OVER “TRUTHDIG”.

YOU ARE BORING AS HELL AND FULL OF HATE!

Ah, the old trick: Accuse your accuser of exactly what you are doing.  Look at your post…all caps, all rant and rage sturm und drang.  If anyone needs meds it’s you because you just keep posting the same insults over and over.  Has the heartburn kicked in yet? How about the TMJ and headaches.

You know, you really ought to learn to relax, and enjoy life a little more.  I mean, you spend hours hunting up huge pointless propaganda articles that you have to edit into 4000 word chunks, then post all 10 pieces in a row—only to have nobody read them.  That’s got to make the stomach acid burn—all that time to be ignored—or laughed at.  Maybe you need to get out more, and live a little.  Living and dying to find yet another agit-prop article to post—I mean are you remembering to bathe? Everyday?

The only hatred I have is for racist bigots—like you.

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, November 10, 2007 at 10:17 am Link to this comment

#112741 by Howard on 11/10 at 7:36 am
(189 comments total)

#112730 by Robert on 11/10 at 6:11 am

Now , Robert, notice that last tube was in the Hebrew language; most likely they were actors , too; and if not, its like the Baptists who protested at soldiers funerals in our country. Kinda risky, don’t ya think.  And what point are you trying to prove, anyway? That some Israelis are critical of their government?  Very democratic state is what it shows.  Not like Egypt, Jordan, Iran, Syria, etc.
Where are the protests against the gov’t in those countries ??
===========================

Howard…who are you trying to deceive here? These Orthodox Jews are NOT actors.

Why don’t you stop your lying bull crap…You have been making a fool of yourself.

Your garbage is pure and makes NO sense at all!

NO NEED TO WASTE MY TIME ON SUCH GARBAGE!

Report this

By Aretologist, November 10, 2007 at 9:28 am Link to this comment

In1972 Sen William Fulbright said America was “subservient” to Israel and bore “a very great share of the responsibility for the continuation of Middle East violence.” Fulbright said that “The Israelis control politics in Congress and in the Senate.”  AIPAC ousted Fulbright from the Senate. Confirming that AIPAC was responsible for Fulbright’s defeat, a former head of AIPAC boasted:  “The Jews in America gathered to oust Senator Percy and the American politicians got the message.”

What if Germany had established a lobby - AGPAC - in the 1930s? And had gained control of our mass media?

What if in the above paragraph 1972 is replaced with 1932, Israel with Germany, “Israelis” with “Germans,” AIPAC with AGPAC, etc.

Would the world today be different?  Would Israel exist? Would Germany “own” America today?

Would our politicians then possessed more intelligence and more backbone to resist AGPAC than they exhibit today against AIPAC?

How could they have resisted Germany?

Their AGPAC would have coerced our politicians and forced them to ignore the plight of the Jews - just like today AIPAC has coerced them to ignore the plight of the Palestinians.

Germany’s PR agent - our mass media - would have corrupted, debauched reality to such an extent that wrong would be right and Germany’s “crimes of against humanity” i.e., against the Jewish people - would have been ignored by the mass media. Just our current mass media ignores Israel’s crimes against the Palestinians.

The American people in 1930s would have been as brainwashed then by Germany’s control of our mass media to ignore the plight of the Jews - just like we have been inculcated today by Israel’s PR agent - our mass media - to ignore the plight of the Palestinians today.

The Jewish people’s plight would have been Ignored not just by our politicians in Washington, but also by the vast majority of America - and for the same reason - conditioning and inculcation by the mass media.

What if Jews had thus been forced -  by our affinity to the Germans -  to react?

Jewish terrorists bombed the King David Hotel in Jerusalem in 1946, killing 90 innocent people to make a point. And Jewish terrorists assassinated the UN’s Special Representative in Israel in 1948 to send a message.

What if Jews had bombed an American hotel to send a message and to make a point i.e.,  America’s comradeship with the Germans?

Wouldn’t the Jews have been justified, because they knew obvious right from wrong - something
America did not - because it was always doing only what “was good for the Germans”?

And wouldn’t America - for the same reasons - inculcation and coercion -  have completely dismissed the real reasons why Jews bombed the hotel?

Wouldn’t we have - because of inculcation of the mass media and coercion by AGPAC completely ignored the real reason for the bombing - our 110% support of Germany?

Just as we have today completely ignored the real reason for 9-11 i.e., Israel’s crimes against the Palestinians.

Isn’t it about time that we practiced what we say in the Declaration of Independence?

Justice and Freedom for All.  Not just for the Jews - but for the Palestinians too?

And shouldn’t America also have freedom From all?

From lobbies such as AIPAC that coerce our politicians.

And will continue to do so unless Washington grows up and stops depending on Jewish brains all the time to tell them what is right and what is wrong.

Or is everyone so mediocre - or so “owned” and thus so fearful - that they can’t know the difference between right and wrong?

Report this

By Howard, November 10, 2007 at 8:36 am Link to this comment

#112730 by Robert on 11/10 at 6:11 am


  Now , Robert, notice that last tube was in the Hebrew language;  most likely they were actors , too; and if not, its like the Baptists who protested at soldiers funerals in our country. Kinda risky, don’t ya think.  And what point are you trying to prove, anyway? That some Israelis are critical of their government?  Very democratic state is what it shows.  Not like Egypt, Jordan, Iran, Syria, etc.
Where are the protests against the gov’t in those countries ??

I’d worry more about something like this:

Israel says Egypt is doing far too little to stop the Palestinian Islamist group Hamas, which controls Gaza, from smuggling weapons, militants and cash into the area from Egypt, and is appealing to Cairo to do more. At the same time, a senior Israeli legislator from the opposition Likud party, Yuval Steinitz, has written to all the members of the U.S. Senate to support a move begun in the House of Representatives to freeze $200 million of a projected $1.3 billion in military aid to Egypt unless it takes action. Steinitz said he was asked to write the letter by senators he met as a leader, with Senator Jon Kyl (R-Ariz.), of a joint group on defense. In his letter, Steinitz accuses Egypt of allowing Hamas to obtain 20,000 rifles, 6,000 anti-tank missiles, 100 tons of explosives and several dozen Katyusha rockets and shoulder-held anti-aircraft missiles.

In the last three months, Steinitz says, Egypt has allowed “the organized departure of large groups of operatives from Gaza for military training in Iran.” In September, he notes, 100 Gazans who had trained in Iran were allowed by Egypt to return home despite Israeli protests. His complaints are shared by the Israeli government. Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni on Tuesday told her Egyptian counterpart, Ahmed Aboul Gheit, that “there is a real need for a determined effort to stop weapons smuggling into Gaza.” The House move was led by Rep. Gary Ackerman (D-NY), chairman of the subcommittee on the Middle East and Asia, and Rep. Nita Lowey (D-NY), chairwoman of the state and foreign operations subcommittee of the Appropriations Committee.

(New York Times) 11.8.2007

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, November 10, 2007 at 8:13 am Link to this comment

#112736 by Inherit The Wind on 11/10 at 6:55 am
(58 comments total)

Robert on 11/09 at 10:43 pm
(554 comments total)

ITZW…I told you that you are NOT such A hard NUT to crack. Your last post was a dandy; you are such a great “thinker”. Just keep trying ITZW…hasbara clown!

BTW, I never knew that my Italian father and my Irish mother who immigrated to the US in the 1950’s were faking their nationalities as per your last post!

ITZW…just keep on thinking and don’t forget to take your medications.

And I’m sure they’re really proud to have a neo-nazi hate-monger for a son, “Robert”.  I’ll bet they were nice liberal folks who have NO idea how you started hating Jews.

But I’m sure they still love you. Even Lionel Dahmer continued to love his son, Geoffrey, and mourned his death.
====================================

As for Inherit The Zionist Wind(ITZW), the Hasbara Clown,...When and all his “Zionist HASBARA” efforts fail to silence, intimidate, side-track, discredit a critic of Zionism/Israel…its almost always for ITZW to label him/her an anti-semite, mention Hitler, Jewish deaths & suffering… and he just assumes that he has WON THE MATCH.

Great previous post ITZW…your worn out zionist hasbara methods are too familiar to all us! Just continue to make a damn fool of yourself…lilmamzer!

ITZW…JUST KEEP HOWLING IN THAT ZIONIST WIND…ALL THAT ZIONIST STENCH HAS NO WHERE TO GO BUT IN THAT ZIONIST BOX AND THAT IS WHERE YOUR HEAD IS LOCKED IN THERE FOR EVER…HASBARA CLOWN !

ITZW…DON’T FORGET TO TAKE YOUR MEDICATIONS; YOUR SYMPTOMS ARE SCATTERED ALL OVER “TRUTHDIG”.

YOU ARE BORING AS HELL AND FULL OF HATE!

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, November 10, 2007 at 7:55 am Link to this comment

Robert on 11/09 at 10:43 pm
(554 comments total)

ITZW…I told you that you are NOT such A hard NUT to crack. Your last post was a dandy; you are such a great “thinker”. Just keep trying ITZW…hasbara clown!

BTW, I never knew that my Italian father and my Irish mother who immigrated to the US in the 1950’s were faking their nationalities as per your last post!

ITZW…just keep on thinking and don’t forget to take your medications.

And I’m sure they’re really proud to have a neo-nazi hate-monger for a son, “Robert”.  I’ll bet they were nice liberal folks who have NO idea how you started hating Jews.

But I’m sure they still love you. Even Lionel Dahmer continued to love his son, Geoffrey, and mourned his death.

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, November 10, 2007 at 7:11 am Link to this comment

#112711 by Howard on 11/10 at 3:39 am
(188 comments total)

Re:  112678 by Robert on 11/09 at 9:40 pm

“” Hey Howard…there is really NO FAKE about the video. That guy in the video is a fanatic ‘’
==============================
=============================
Any school child alive today, and I mean a primary level kid, knows U Tube videos arranged in front of a video are fake.

Man, get with it.  No Orthodox Jewish person would get in front of a camera.  Ever . Like the Amish.  They avoid them.  That should have been your first clue.  The second was that guy’s language and diction..

The other man who was real, was pissed off. ( I don’t blame him, he knew they were a bunch of phonys.  And poor ones, too.)

Just what the actor wanted.
——————————————————
Howard, I just searched “Orthodox Jews” on YouTube and this is one of the selections.

Are these “FAKE ACTORS” too Howard? Surely NOT!

*******************************

Zionist Jews killing Orthodox Jews


“Consistent with fundamental Jewish beliefs, some of these protesters often take part in demonstrations, side by side with Palestinians, against the State of Israel and its inhuman policies toward the Palestinian people.” The apparent strategy of using organized violence through private security personnel against these peaceful protesters is only one of many tactics used by the State of Israel to intimidate and discourage further protests. The police were nowhere to be found at the time or even hours after the melee. Several Rabbis and children were attacked with electric stun gun devices and knives, requiring some to be hospitalized.

Among the injured were Rabbi Leibl Deutsch and Rabbi Yisroel Rothchild, both of Jerusalem who were stabbed in the lower back and leg respectively. The Jewish cemetery at the heart of the incident dates back to the Second Temple era, over 2000 years ago.Some of the caves that comprise the cemetery have been destroyed as a result of the ongoing highway work and there are heightened fears of further desecration as the highway project continues unabated.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeNB0v8SXUA

Report this

By Howard, November 10, 2007 at 4:39 am Link to this comment

Re:    112678 by Robert on 11/09 at 9:40 pm

“” Hey Howard…there is really NO FAKE about the video. That guy in the video is a fanatic ‘’
==============================
=============================
Any school child alive today, and I mean a primary level kid, knows U Tube videos arranged in front of a video are fake.

Man, get with it.  No Orthodox Jewish person would get in front of a camera.  Ever . Like the Amish.  They avoid them.  That should have been your first clue.  The second was that guy’s language and diction..

The other man who was real, was pissed off. ( I don’t blame him, he knew they were a bunch of phonys.  And poor ones, too.)

Just what the actor wanted.

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, November 9, 2007 at 11:43 pm Link to this comment

ITZW…I told you that you are NOT such A hard NUT to crack. Your last post was a dandy; you are such a great “thinker”. Just keep trying ITZW…hasbara clown!

BTW, I never knew that my Italian father and my Irish mother who immigrated to the US in the 1950’s were faking their nationalities as per your last post!

ITZW…just keep on thinking and don’t forget to take your medications.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, November 9, 2007 at 11:18 pm Link to this comment

Robert on 11/09 at 8:14 pm
(552 comments total)

Anti-Zionist Jewish Protesters

A group of Orthodox Jews protest against Zionism

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dSHl3C9kgY&feature;=PlayList&p=E66E6FAAC4A1E742&index=6

==================================================

ITZW…Hasbara Clown…take a look at the short video clip. At about 1.15 minutes of the video, you can clearly see yourself. That raging zionist who seems to think of himself as an intellectual and a “great thinker”!

That raging zionist in the above video clip sounds just like you…who knows, he may also look like you!

ITZW…hasbara clown…just keep coming back and show us all…that you are such a great hasbara “thinker”...eh! May be you should start thinking about publishing your paranoid zionist comments!

All the very best…ITZW, you are really NOT such a hard NUT to crack!

*******************

Since everything you “cite” is cooked propaganda, why would I bother anymore?

And….another slew of insults from Homer-Simpson-brained “Robert”.  He’s actually recyling his own insults because he can’t even invent new ones of THOSE!

Admit it “Robert”—that’s just a handle to convince people you are an American, isn’t it? You’re really from someplace in the Middle East, posting this stuff to try to help the Hamas cause, aren’t you?  Maybe you spent enough time here to learn to write in an American style, but your heart and soul is Hamas, or something similar, like Hezbollah, right?

C’mon “Robert”.  You can tell us. We won’t lose any respect for you….

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, November 9, 2007 at 10:40 pm Link to this comment

#112669 by Howard on 11/09 at 8:46 pm
(186 comments total)

#112663 by Robert on 11/09 at 8:14 pm

I watched the video, but he’s not an Orthodox Jew, but an actor hired with guys behind him holiding Iranian flags.  Just special for utube; and then you could see how the crowd treated him and knew he was a FAKE.  No question about it.

What exactly are you trying to prove, man?
===========================

Hey Howard…there is really NO FAKE about the video. That guy in the video is a fanatic zionist.

You are just resorting to your deceptions…

Howard…you need to know about the flags. The flags are NOT Iranian flags.

You are WRONG! Keep trying though…you may get it right!

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, November 9, 2007 at 10:24 pm Link to this comment

#112669 by Howard on 11/09 at 8:46 pm
(186 comments total)

#112663 by Robert on 11/09 at 8:14 pm

I watched the video, but he’s not an Orthodox Jew, but an actor hired with guys behind him holiding Iranian flags.  Just special for utube; and then you could see how the crowd treated him and knew he was a FAKE.  No question about it.

What exactly are you trying to prove, man?
—————————————————————————
Howard,

What I saw was a group of devoutly religious True Torah Jews being berated by a Zionist.

Report this

By Howard, November 9, 2007 at 9:46 pm Link to this comment

#112663 by Robert on 11/09 at 8:14 pm

I watched the video, but he’s not an Orthodox Jew, but an actor hired with guys behind him holiding Iranian flags.  Just special for utube; and then you could see how the crowd treated him and knew he was a FAKE.  No question about it.

  What exactly are you trying to prove, man?

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, November 9, 2007 at 9:14 pm Link to this comment

Anti-Zionist Jewish Protesters

A group of Orthodox Jews protest against Zionism


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dSHl3C9kgY&feature=PlayList&p=E66E6FAAC4A1E742&index=6

==================================================

ITZW…Hasbara Clown…take a look at the short video clip. At about 1.15 minutes of the video, you can clearly see yourself. That raging zionist who seems to think of himself as an intellectual   and a “great thinker”!

That raging zionist in the above video clip sounds just like you…who knows, he may also look like you!

ITZW…hasbara clown…just keep coming back and show us all…that you are such a great hasbara “thinker”...eh! May be you should start thinking about publishing your paranoid zionist comments!

All the very best…ITZW, you are really NOT such a hard NUT to crack!

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, November 9, 2007 at 8:37 pm Link to this comment

Robert on 11/08 at 9:06 pm
(550 comments total)

#112476 by Inherit The Wind on 11/08 at 7:20 pm
——————————————————

As for Inherit The Zionist Wind(ITZW), the Hasbara Clown,...When and all his “Zionist HASBARA” efforts fail to silence, intimidate, side-track, discredit a critic of Zionism/Israel…its almost always for ITZW to label him/her an anti-semite, mention Hitler, Jewish deaths & suffering… and he just assumes that he has WON THE MATCH.

Great previous post ITZW…your worn out zionist hasbara methods are too familiar to all us! Just continue to make a damn fool of yourself…lilmamzer!

ITZW…JUST KEEP HOWLING IN THAT ZIONIST WIND…ALL THAT ZIONIST STENCH HAS NO WHERE TO GO BUT IN THAT ZIONIST BOX AND THAT IS WHERE YOUR HEAD IS LOCKED IN THERE FOR EVER…HASBARA CLOWN

********************

Robert-Abu proves once again that he’s not capable of a single original thought—he can quote and he can spew insults but he cannot THINK.

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, November 9, 2007 at 10:18 am Link to this comment

#112562 by Howard on 11/09 at 7:29 am
(185 comments total)

re:  #112559 by Robert on 11/09 at 7:07

Well , it shows one that there are quite a few mixed up people.  Like the Jewish student you posted here. I’ve seen a lot of non-Jewish students do far worse.
Anyway she joins a select list with guys on it like Norm Finkelstein and Norm Chomsky !!
====================================

Howard…Sarah Marshak, a Jewish student at George Washington University, got caught on video camera drawing a swastika on her dormitory door, one of several. Just imagine if it were a non-Jewish student who got caught drawing a swastika. Oh man…the news of the incident would have been all over CNN, Fox News and the rest of them.

Was she mixed up or just trying to spread that too familiar tactics of deceptions…Anti-Semitism, Nazis, Hitler, Neo-Nazis and so on.

BTW, Sarah Marshak works as a reporter for The Hatchet!

Report this

By Howard, November 9, 2007 at 8:29 am Link to this comment

re:  #112559 by Robert on 11/09 at 7:07

Well , it shows one that there are quite a few mixed up people.  Like the Jewish student you posted here. I’ve seen a lot of non-Jewish students do far worse.
Anyway she joins a select list with guys on it like Norm Finkelstein and Norm Chomsky !!

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, November 9, 2007 at 8:07 am Link to this comment

Will Foxman demand the death penalty?

Jewish student behind some dorm swastikas

11.06.2007 | Jewish Telegraphic Agency (JTA)

“A Jewish college student who reported swastikas on her dorm door drew some of them herself.

Sarah Marshak, a George Washington University freshman, was caught on tape by a hidden video camera in the sixth incident of swastika drawing on her dormitory door.

Marshak told the university’s student newspaper that she drew the last three of the six swastikas.

“I wasn’t looking to create this, sort of, insanity,” Marshak told The Hatchet, where she works as a reporter. “I wasn’t looking to become a media darling. I was just looking for acknowledgment from University that someone drew a swastika on the door.”

Marshak could face federal charges. She will appear before the Student Judicial Services.

Nine incidents of swastika painting took place on the campus in a two-week period.

Another student was caught and charged Saturday with drawing swastikas and racial slurs in another dormitory. He has been barred from campus.”


http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=1300

Report this

By Howard, November 9, 2007 at 4:41 am Link to this comment

Walter Russell Mead
From Foreign Affairs, November/December 2007

The Israel Lobby. John J. Mearsheimer, Stephan M. Walt

“The book would benefit from a much more rigorous discussion of what the lobby, in its various incarnations and permutations, actually gets. Much of it seems to be straightforward pork-barrel politics: legislation involving foreign aid and arms deals is written so as to benefit Israel, and there is steady pressure on the executive branch to interpret these laws in ways favorable to Israel’s interests. But to what real effect? Mearsheimer and Walt provide some estimates about the financial value of these provisions, but it is not clear how important these achievements are, either to Israel’s defense strategy or to the politics of the Middle East. They also cite various pro-Israel legislative acts and congressional resolutions that passed by overwhelming margins. A closer analysis of the actual impact of these bills on policy is needed. The U.S. political system is extremely good at providing hollow victories for lobbyists that have little or no real impact on policy—allowing the lobbyists to demonstrate their clout and legislators to score an easy political win. Mearsheimer and Walt never show that the legislative victories represent real control over critical matters of national policy either in the United States or the Middle East.”
—————————————————————————

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20071101fareviewessay86611/walter-russell-mead/jerusalem-syndrome.html

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, November 8, 2007 at 11:13 pm Link to this comment

Re #112451 by PatrickHenry on 11/08 at 5:33 pm
(279 comments total)

Wow, powerful statement by Michael Scheur, head of CIA bin Laden unit 1996-1999. Have you read his book, “Imperial Hubris”? I loved it, a great read. I love his style - he thinks he’s Rudyard Kipling.
He paints a very impressive picture of bin Laden. Sometimes he sounds like a bloody-minded warrior ready to kill millions of Muslims to save America and/or Western Civilization, actually a western counterpart of bin Laden whom he respects as a warrior like himself. He resigned because political interference from the White House was ruining the CIA.

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, November 8, 2007 at 10:16 pm Link to this comment

Israel’s influence of US policy & the Israeli lobby

Scott Ritter describes Israel’s role in shaping U.S. Foreign policy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O125hGt9qt4

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, November 8, 2007 at 10:06 pm Link to this comment

#112476 by Inherit The Wind on 11/08 at 7:20 pm
——————————————————

As for Inherit The Zionist Wind(ITZW), the Hasbara Clown,...When and all his “Zionist HASBARA” efforts fail to silence, intimidate, side-track, discredit a critic of Zionism/Israel…its almost always for ITZW to label him/her an anti-semite, mention Hitler, Jewish deaths & suffering… and he just assumes that he has WON THE MATCH.

Great previous post ITZW…your worn out zionist hasbara methods are too familiar to all us! Just continue to make a damn fool of yourself…lilmamzer!

ITZW…JUST KEEP HOWLING IN THAT ZIONIST WIND…ALL THAT ZIONIST STENCH HAS NO WHERE TO GO BUT IN THAT ZIONIST BOX AND THAT IS WHERE YOUR HEAD IS LOCKED IN THERE FOR EVER…HASBARA CLOWN !

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, November 8, 2007 at 8:20 pm Link to this comment

Abu, dummy: I’m NOT lilmamzer.  He’s perfectly capable of cutting your neo-nazi arguments to shreds without my help.

You cite neo-nazi and clear anti-semitic web sites.  You hold that anti-semitic tin-foil hat bastard Michael Rivero up as a source and an authority.

You quote lots of sources in toto ad nauseum and NEVER have an original intellectual thought in your head.  You’ve never once, NOT ONCE posted your own analysis—and calling me a Zionist isn’t analysis.

You are a clogging machine, deliberately clogging threads up with vast amounts of UNORIGINAL material—because YOU aren’t capable of distilling it down, then offering a citation to verify your own words.

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, November 8, 2007 at 7:34 pm Link to this comment

The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy


“In the recent study “The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy”, the authors of the paper, Professor Stephen Walt of Harvard University and John Mearsheimer of the University of Chicago, charge that the United States has willingly set aside its own security and that of many of its allies in order to advance the interests of Israel. In addition the study accuses the pro-Israeli lobby, particularly AIPAC of manipulating the U.S. media, policing academia and silencing critics of Israel by labeling them as anti-Semitic.

A new article in the New York Review of Books examines the controversial report and the reaction to it. It’s called “The Storm Over the Israel Lobby.” It was written by media critic Michael Massing, who joins Amy Goodman for the interview. Michael is a contributing editor of the Columbia Journalism Review and frequently writes for the New York Review of Books.”
——————————————————-
Watch Amy Goodman:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNQv5YSg_YA&mode=related&search;=

Report this
PatrickHenry's avatar

By PatrickHenry, November 8, 2007 at 6:33 pm Link to this comment

The Anti-Americanism of the Israel-Firsters

by Michael Scheuer

Finally, I wish to directly refute Mr. Schoenfeld’s claim that I “cast aspersions on American Jews.” I do not cast aspersions, I forthrightly damn, and pray that God damns, any American – Jew, Catholic, Evangelical, Irish, German, Hindu, hermaphrodite, thespian, or otherwise – who flogs the insane idea that American and Israeli interests are one and the same. The nation-state of Israel is an intolerable burden to the treasury and security of the United States, and Washington’s current relationship with Israel – sanctioned by the AIPAC-funded political leaders of both parties – is one of several factors that are leading to full-scale American participation in other peoples’ religious wars, religious wars that David Horowitz’s recent “Islamofascist Awareness Week” manifestly wants to bring to the streets of the United States.

http://www.antiwar.com/scheuer/?articleid=11871

Report this

By Howard, November 8, 2007 at 6:20 pm Link to this comment

Walter Russell Mead
From Foreign Affairs, November/December 2007

The Israel Lobby. John J. Mearsheimer, Stephan M. Walt

The argument of this book, The Israel Lobby, actually seems to boil down to the point that the left wing of the lobby has a better grasp of both the Israeli and the U.S. national interests than the right wing of the lobby does. Mearsheimer and Walt maintain that when U.S. and Israeli national interests come into conflict, the United States should put its own interests first—but this, too, is a view that, as they concede, most members of the lobby share. So what sets the authors apart from the rest of the large mass of Americans, Jewish and non-Jewish, who want Israel to exist and care deeply about its fate but disagree and squabble over what the United States should do in the Middle East? Nothing, as far as I can see. Mearsheimer and Walt have come up with a definition of “the Israel lobby” that covers the waterfront, including everyone from Jimmy Carter and George Soros to Paul Wolfowitz and Tom DeLay.

Since virtually every possible policy position is supported by some element of this lobby, the lobby never loses no matter what happens in Washington—like the man who always “wins” at roulette because he puts a chip on every square. President Bill Clinton presses Israel to make far-reaching concessions on the West Bank in a proposal that Mearsheimer and Walt agree should still be the point of departure for U.S. diplomacy in the region: obviously, a triumph for the Israel lobby. The Bush administration then shifts direction and stands by Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon as he rejects all talk of territorial concessions: another win for the Israel lobby. Red, black, even, odd: the lobby never fails.

From a definition like this, no good can come. Unfortunately, Mearsheimer and Walt’s account of the U.S. political system is equally vague. Does the lobby use the same techniques or different ones to shape the foreign policy of Democratic and Republican administrations? Does a Labor-based government in Israel have a different relationship with the lobby than a Likud-based one? What mix of political conditions in Israel and the United States makes the lobby’s work easier? What political environment poses the greatest challenge? Mearsheimer and Walt have no time for such details.
—————————————————————
http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20071101fareviewessay86611/walter-russell-mead/jerusalem-syndrome.html

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, November 8, 2007 at 5:55 pm Link to this comment

Prof. John Mearsheimer on the Israel Lobby

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSAqNuf55k0&mode=related&search;=

Report this

By Howard, November 8, 2007 at 1:34 pm Link to this comment

AIPAC IS A PUSSY-CAT.  AIPAC IS A PUSSY-CAT!

I called them on the phone and was told they do NOT influence congress.  Or try to. Seems, they said, congressmen would resent it and resist. Would look real bad.
  They suggested I see if its the Farm Lobby that is the culprit.
  I think maybe the National Rifle Associatin is who should be investigated.  As well.

Report this

By Aretologist, November 8, 2007 at 12:14 pm Link to this comment

“The whole my life is a movement on a moral scale. All knowledge is a moral quest. The mind seeks reality and desires the good.” Plato

AIPAC and the people working there will become better once someone shows them what they are like - unethical and immoral. And tell them what they are doing - coercing and intimidating America’s politicians - is harmful for America, the world, and especially for the innocent Palestinian people who are only guilty of trying to stop Israel’s destruction of them just because the Jews want their “Promised Land” back 2,000 years after they were expelled from the region.

“If you want peace, work for Justice.”  Pope John

But America doesn’t want justice in the Middle East. It wants to do only what “is good for Israel” and if that brings peace - great. If justice doesn’t - then we’ll use the same methods on the Arabs we used on America’s 25 million indigenous Indians to achieve “peace.”

Does AIPAC have anything to do with the fact (provable beyond any reasonable doubt) that America is subservient to Israel?

The well being of American people and the rest of the world don’t matter. Just the welfare of Israel is all that matters - even if the problem in the Middle East is the direct result of Israel’s own crimes against humanity.

What if Germany had as powerful a lobby in America in the 1930s as Israel does now?

What if America had been as subservient to Germany as we are to Israel when Hitler was in power?

Then what? Would we have ignored the plight of the Jews then as we are ignoring the plight of the Palestinians today?

And because of Germany’s powerful lobby would we had to assited Hitler and given him aid every year?

Would our politicians then have known the difference between good and bad right and wrong?

Or would the German AIPAC have intimidated and coerced them into doing only what was “good for the Nazis?”

“Courage is rightly esteemed as the greatest of all human qualities because it is the quality that guarantees all others.”  Winston Churchill

“There is no expiation for evil except good.”  Rousseau

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, November 8, 2007 at 11:48 am Link to this comment

#112372 by Inherit The Wind on 11/08 at 9:57 am
(53 comments total)

Boy,
Robert-Abu and Aryan-tologist won’t give up until every Jew on the planet is dead.

And these two mamzers hold themselves up as such “moral” characters.  So did Hitler.
==============================================

As for Inherit The Zionist Wind(ITZW), the Hasbara Clown,...When and all his “Zionist HASBARA” efforts fail to silence, intimidate, side-track, discredit a critic of Zionism/Israel…its almost always for ITZW to label him/her an anti-semite, mention Hitler, Jewish deaths & suffering… and he just assumes that he has WON THE MATCH.

Great previous post ITZW…your worn out zionist hasbara methods are too familiar to all us! Just continue to make a damn fool of yourself…lilmamzer.

Report this

By Howard, November 8, 2007 at 11:38 am Link to this comment

RE:  #112372 by Inherit The Wind on 11/08 at 9:57 am

Now cut that out, ITW;  its made me laff so hard, I have a cramp and cannot work anymore.  At least for an hour.
  Showed it my boss.  Agreed that your comment is a winner.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, November 8, 2007 at 10:57 am Link to this comment

Boy,
Robert-Abu and Aryan-tologist won’t give up until every Jew on the planet is dead.

And these two mamzers hold themselves up as such “moral” characters.  So did Hitler.

Report this

By Howard, November 8, 2007 at 10:36 am Link to this comment

Still, questions arise. If everyone from AIPAC to Americans for Peace Now is part of the lobby, what, exactly, is the political agenda the lobby supports? And if a variety of U.S. policies are consonant with the different agendas of different components of the lobby, what criteria should be used to measure the impact of the lobby as a whole? What is the relationship between the internal dynamics of this divided lobby and the politics and policies of both Israel and wider American society?

When it comes down to it, Mearsheimer and Walt do not seem to know who, exactly, belongs to this amoebic, engulfing blob they call the lobby and who does not. Take their own case. They describe themselves as pro-Israel, in that they believe in the state’s right to exist. They admire its achievements and wish secure and prosperous lives for its citizens. They state categorically that the United States should aid Israel “if its survival is in danger.” They frequently argue that current Israeli policies and U.S. support for them are counterproductive—that is, Washington should make its aid to Israel more conditional not because the two states do not share interests but precisely because they do. Conditional aid, Mearsheimer and Walt believe, will lead Israel to act in ways that ensure its survival while also benefiting the United States. And they care so passionately about this that they have written a long and controversial book on the subject. “We are obviously not part of the Israel lobby,” they say. But under their own definition, is that really true?

=======================
http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20071101fareviewessay86611/walter-russell-mead/jerusalem-syndrome.html

Report this

By Aretologist, November 8, 2007 at 9:15 am Link to this comment

“We own America - and America knows it.”  Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon

The Declaration of Independence defined “truth” as that which is “self-evident.”

There is no way to the truth than by a thorough examination of the facts, an objective look at uncorrupted reality.

That is the way of any true scientist and thinker.

Where are all the thinkers and scientists in America? Why all the silence from all the Institutes of Advanced Studies about the obvious?

Why do only a handful of “self-hating” Jews - (like Chomsky, Finkelstein et al) have the guts to see the
obvious, to think, to investigate, to write and to speak out, about the aberration in America -  where 2% of the population of a democratic country control the other 98% through AIPAC - making the country
subservient to Israel?

Is the rest of academia that owned? And that pusillanimous?

It is not a coincidence that the world is in such a mess today in this particular period in history.

If anyone has noticed there aren’t any smart and sane people around anymore. People like Einstein and
Gandhi -  who knew the difference between right and wrong and spoke out and would have controlled AIPAC and the Israelis by shaming them and by pointing out to them exactly what they were - and are - doing.

Just about every political leader in the world is mediocre. This is exactly why the world is in such a mess and can’t find the IQ or the courage to solve as simple a problem as Israel’s theft of Palestinian land and the slaughter and imprisonment of the innocent Palestinian people.

Is the lack of courageous intelligence political leaders and their replacement by mediocrities of the
highest level just a coincidence or the work of a highly dedicated minority all working together towards a single goal? 

Reality can’t be eliminated just because it is deliberately avoided by Israel’s PR representatives in the United States -  America’s mass media.

The structure of human consciousness is such that true reality - a sane reality - is bound sooner or later to come to be articulated by those who are truly lucid and truly righteous.

True reality will always be sought b decent human beings - who are not dissemblers and don’t pretend to
be “righteous.”

“Stop being Jews and start being human beings!” George Bernard Shaw

“He who would distinguish ethical from unethical must have an adequate idea of what is ethical and
what is unethical.”  Spinoza, Ethics

Report this

By Howard, November 8, 2007 at 8:28 am Link to this comment

November/December 2007

The Israel Lobby. John J. Mearsheimer, Stephan M. Walt

“The problems start with the definition. The Israel lobby, write Mearsheimer and Walt, is “a convenient shorthand term for the loose coalition of individuals and organizations” working “to shape U.S. foreign policy in a pro-Israel direction.” The lobby, as they see it, includes both hard-line groups such as AIPAC (the American Israel Public Affairs Committee) and CUFI (Christians United For Israel) and dovish groups such as the Israel Policy Forum, the Tikkun Community, and Americans for Peace Now. All of these groups agree that Israel ought to be defended, and the groups and individuals in the lobby work in various ways to shape U.S. policy toward the Jewish state along what they consider to be favorable lines, but they have occasionally deep divisions over exactly what policies are best for Israel.

Mearsheimer and Walt say clearly that the lobby is neither conspiratorial nor antipatriotic. They concede that the overwhelming majority of those involved sincerely believe that what is best for Israel is best for the United States, and vice versa. Moreover, the tendency to reflexively support the Israeli government has diminished over time. And individual groups that are part of the lobby have broken with Israeli policies at various points, even if the largest groups tend to embrace hard-line views.”
————————————————-
http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20071101fareviewessay86611/walter-russell-mead/jerusalem-syndrome.html
.

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, November 8, 2007 at 7:43 am Link to this comment

“(A separate lobby system, particularly AIPAC, is dedicated to intimidating elected American representatives. And other groups like MEMRI do their best to generate damaging information—some of it true, some of it not—about Muslims and Arabs.)”
=================================================

The Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) explores the Middle East through the region’s media. MEMRI bridges the language gap which exists between the West and the Middle East, providing timely translations of Arabic, Persian, and Turkish media, as well as original analysis of political, ideological, intellectual, social, cultural, and religious trends in the Middle East.

Founded in February 1998 to inform the debate over U.S. policy in the Middle East, MEMRI is an independent, nonpartisan, nonprofit, 501 (c)3 organization. MEMRI’s headquarters is located in Washington, DC with branch offices in Berlin, London, Tokyo and Jerusalem. MEMRI research is translated to English, German, Hebrew, Italian, French, Spanish and Japanese.

To support MEMRI’s undertaking please click here to send your secure contribution online, or send your donations to:

MEMRI
P.O. Box 27837
Washington, DC 20038-7837
Phone: (202) 955-9070
Fax: (202) 955-9077
Email to: .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

Please direct all general inquiries to .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address).

NOTE: We are a 501(c)3 status organization, therefore your donations to The Middle East Media Research Institute are tax-deductible.


http://www.memri.org/aboutus.html

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, November 8, 2007 at 7:38 am Link to this comment

The Propaganda Machine

The goal of hasbara is to disseminate good news about Israel, largely independent of whether the news is true or not.

August 20, 2007

Jonathan Cook


“But CiF posters may be less aware of how the rest of the Israel lobby works. Giyus is, in fact, the most amateurish part of its operation. These are the “shock troops” on the front line. They overwhelm by force of numbers only. Far more effective are the lobby’s “snipers”. They pick off anyone the shock troops have failed to frighten off and whose voice might be heard in places where it matters: particularly in the American media and on US campuses. Tony Judt has recently felt their ire, as have Professors Walt and Mearsheimer.

(A separate lobby system, particularly AIPAC, is dedicated to intimidating elected American representatives. And other groups like MEMRI do their best to generate damaging information—some of it true, some of it not—about Muslims and Arabs.)

This obsession with preserving Israel’s image in the US is not surprising: the country’s fate as an occupying, military power in the Middle East will, after all, be decided in Washington. In the main, the professional Israel lobby cares little about what is said in the European media, although as British newspaper websites like the Guardian start to penetrate the other side of the Atlantic that is changing. There may yet come a day when we will miss the abusive Giyus crowd.

The professional Israel lobby have respectable names like Camera (the Committee for Accuracy in Middle Reporting in America), Honest Reporting and the Anti-Defamation League. They sound reassuringly even-handed. Don’t be deceived.

Camera has a section dedicated to “naming and shaming” some of the most influential journalists writing about the Middle East. You’ll find a page dedicated to the Guardian’s former Jerusalem correspondent, Chris McGreal, after he made the ultimate faux pas of comparing Israel to apartheid South Africa, a country he knows intimately. There are many who share the honour: the Independent’s Donald MacIntyre, Tim McGirk of Time magazine, Molly Moore of the Washington Post, Jim Muir and Kylie Morris of the BBC, Greg Myre and Neil MacFarquhar of the New York Times. And that’s just a fraction of the Ms.

Before, the giyus crowd get to work, let me also point out that once I too was on the Camera list, during a period when I contributed op-eds to the International Herald Tribune. On a couple of occasions the Tribune received the largest mailbags in its history in response to my commentaries. Another small honour, I suppose. There was no doubt the letter-writing was organised: the Anti-Defamation League’s head, Abraham Foxman, kindly provided less imaginative writers with a pro forma letter on the front page of its website denouncing me.

When I stood my ground, the Tribune decided I was too hot to handle. Many writers presumably just buckle under. A couple of entries on Camera is enough to make most US journalists extremely wary of a third “exposure”.

So how will this post be received? What strategy will be used to discredit me? 

The professional hasbarists – the snipers—will probably ignore my post. Why stir over this single piece in a chaotic blog on the peripheries of American discourse. Better not to give me and my writing the oxygen of publicity.

What about the amateur hasbarists? Will they bite their lip? I doubt it. Anyone who tries to expose the workings of the Israel lobby is immediately accused of claiming that the Jews are an all-powerful cabal. (For the record, I’m not: I just believe people who have power tend to abuse it, be it the Israel lobby, the National Rifle Association or the US medical lobby.)”

http://www.jkcook.net/Articles2/0306.htm#Top

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, November 8, 2007 at 6:52 am Link to this comment

November 7, 2007

Congress and the Israel Lobby
The Politics of Servility

By WILLIAM COOK


“Consider the last annual gala held by AIPAC where Sen. Majority Leader Harry Reid (D. Nev.) and Sen. Mitch McConnell (R. Ky) appeared as keynote speakers to an audience that included half of the U.S. Senate and more than half of the House, an event that took place just as the newly constituted Congress of Democrats was asserting its response to the American electorate with a provision to require the President to get the Congress’ approval before he took any action against Iran. By the end of the week AIPAC had successfully pressed for removal of this bipartisan provision from the bill (“Jewish News Weekly of Northern California,” Ron Kampeas, 3/16/2007). David Corn, reporting in Nation magazine noted that keeping that provision in the bill “would not be to the liking of AIPAC, the powerhouse pro-Israel lobby, which has declared the Lantos bill a top priority (Lantos’ bill pushes legislation to intensify sanctions against Iran). “In a recent speech AIPAC executive director Howard Kohr said that legislation restricting Bush’s options would be ‘a sign of weakness.’ Asked if he can point to a political fight lost by AIPAC recently, Representative Larson replied, ‘Not to my recollection.’” (Corn, Nation 4/23/2007). Pat Buchanan, four days later wrote “Why did Pelosi capitulate? Answer. She was ‘under pressure from some conservative members of the caucus, and from lobbyists associated with neoconservative groups that want war with Iran and the American Israel Public Affairs Committee,’ writes John Nichols in the Nation.”

M. J. Rosenberg, in a commentary on the Mearsheimer and Walt study of the influence of the Israeli lobbies on our representatives offered this reflection, an observation that came from his own experience serving representatives over the years: “Once again, Presidential candidates are being told that in order to earn the ‘pro-Israel’ label, they must heartily endorse the status quo. That means that when asked what they would do about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the candidates must state unequivocal support for Israeli policies. They must never use the words ‘even-handed’ or ‘honest broker.’ There is a script and candidates must not deviate from it.” (“W-M’s Best Seller: Why the Hysteria?” 09/07/07).

“There is a script and candidates must not deviate from it.” So much for the valiant soul who searches his/her conscience, free in his/her mind to decide issues that send young Americans to their deaths or to varying states of dementia caused by roadside bombs that shake the brain inside the skull like a bartender preparing a cocktail. So much for the valiant legislator that hides behind the façade dictated to him or her by AIPAC extolling the desire of the Israeli government for peace with Palestine when, in fact, it desires nothing of the sort short of the slow, agonizing, and insidiously torturous ethnic cleansing of all Palestinians from their own homeland. So much for the representatives of the people, who were voted into office with the expressed understanding that they would not just bring the invasion of Iraq to an end but would not create another unprovoked war with another mid-east nation that would cause the deaths of more U.S. soldiers to say nothing of the innocent people caught in the maelstrom of murderous slaughter their mild “yea” could cause even as it ushers forth from their respective mouths. So much for liberty, for the mind free to reflect, weigh and judge for self. So much for the mind Jesus sought to instill in the Christian, the true Christian who followed His teachings, not the venom hurled from the pulpit of Pastor John Hagee and his ilk, militant ministers of the AntiChrist they condemn, preaching a gospel of hate that supports the rabid minority of Zionists that debase the very beliefs of Christianity.”

http://www.counterpunch.org/cook11072007.html

Report this

By Howard, November 8, 2007 at 5:35 am Link to this comment

In 1968 the LA times ran this article, written by Eric Hoffer, a former longshoreman and non-Jewish American social philosopher. Born in 1902, Hoffer died in 1983, after writing nine books and winning the Presidential Medal of Freedom. Although written 34 years ago, the following is as timely and applicable today as then.
by Eric Hoffer
May 26, 1968
________________________________________

The Jews are a peculiar people: things permitted to other nations are forbidden to the Jews. Other nations drive out thousands, even millions of people, and there is no refugee problem. Russia did it, Poland and Czechoslovakia did it. Turkey threw out a million Greeks and Algeria a million Frenchman. Indonesia threw out heaven knows how many Chinese and no one says a word about refugees. But in the case of Israel displaced Arabs have become eternal refugees. Everyone insists that Israel must take back every single Arab.

Arnold Toynbee calls the displacement of the Arabs
an atrocity greater than any committed by the Nazis.
Other nations when victorious on the battlefield dictate peace terms. But when Israel is victorious, it must sue for peace. Everyone expects the Jews to be the only real Christians in this world.

Other nations — when they are defeated — survive and recover, but should Israel be defeated it would be destroyed. Had Nasser triumphed last June he would have wiped Israel off the map and no one would have lifted a finger to save the Jews. No commitment to the Jews by any government, including our own, is worth the paper it is written on.

There is a cry of outrage all over the world when people die in Vietnam or when two Negroes are executed in Rhodesia. But when Hitler slaughtered Jews no one remonstrated with him. The Swedes, who are ready to break off diplomatic relations with America because of what we did in Vietnam, did not let out a peep when Hitler was slaughtering Jews. They sent Hitler choice iron ore and ball bearings, and serviced his troop trains to Norway.

The Jews are alone in the world. If Israel survives it will be solely because of Jewish efforts. And Jewish resources. Yet at this moment Israel is our only reliable and unconditional ally. We can rely more on Israel than Israel can rely on us. And one has only to imagine what would have happened last summer had the Arabs and their Russian backers won the war to realize how vital the survival of Israel is to American and the West in general.

I have a premonition that will not leave me; as it goes with Israel so will it go with all of us. Should Israel perish the holocaust will be upon us.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, November 8, 2007 at 4:50 am Link to this comment

Aryan-tologist:
Admit it: You are a white-supremacist KKK nazi troll.

Do you have your swastika and pointed white hat clean?

It won’t wash the filth from your soul.

Report this

By Aretologist, November 8, 2007 at 1:48 am Link to this comment

What the (mainly hopelessly unconscious) world is witnessing is the beginning of the end of the search for honest, ethical, courageous politicians with the intelligence enough to know right from wrong, ethical from immoral.

Why? Mainly because of the activities of a group of people, all members of the same religion,  who all happen to want the same thing.

The dominance an unethical minority group over a gullible majority is usually inevitable. Why? Because the differences in intelligence and goodness of the two groups.

Why? Because the minority is highly dedicated highly organized and has been working together for centuries towards the same goal. They have centuries of experience while the trusting majority is unaware of their activities.

Once they have gained control of a country what the highly organized minority work together for is a nation governed by mediocrities.

Why? Because “Only mediocrity can be trusted to be always at its best.”

Unfortunately for us that’s what the minority wants. To be able to “trust” that the mediocrities governing the majority are “always at their very best.”

AIPAC - Israel - needs mediocrity only in the White House, in Congress, and the courts but also especially in the Department of State and the United Nations. They also want it in foreign countries.
And the greater the level of mediocrity around the world the more happy and proud they are.

Why? Mediocrities have little intelligence and no perceptive courage.

They have only the intelligence to put a Jewish mezusah on their door but not the intelligence and courage to free themselves from AIPAC’s clutches.

AIPAC doesn’t want nor need any politicians with real brains or genuine backbone in office - anywhere.

Why? Because the Jews have all the intelligence and backbone mankind needs.

AIPAC does not want anyone with brains and backbone in office anywhere -  because that individual would be intelligent know to know the difference between ethical from unethical - and that would be bad for AIPAC and Israel.

Politicians with an IQ and backbone would have the brains to resist them and maybe even the chutzpah to criticize what they are doing - and have done to America. And AIPAC would not like that.

AIPAC supports mediocre politicians because they are easier to control. Like Florida governor Crist who put a Jewish mezusah on his door, even though he is Methodist, to show his respect and gratefulness to AIPAC.

AIPAC supports the mediocre instead of the intelligent politician because the mediocre politician, unlike our Founding Fathers,  does not have a clue as to what is really crucial and important for the country.

AIPAC saw to it that any intelligent politician - the ones who knew right from wrong - Sen. Fulbright, Congressman Findley and others - and complained about America’s subservience to Israel lost in their next elections. And then bragged and laughed about it and said: “The rest of Congress has gotten the message.”

AIPAC wants mediocre politicians in office because mediocrities don’t know towards what precepts and principles courage should be directed and employed.

Mediocrities find the courage to fight “terrorism” - because this is written in their AIPAC “hymn book” - but not the courage to fight the terror tactics AIPAC uses - coercion and intimidation - because this is not in their AIPAC hymn book.

“We own America - and America knows it,” bragged Israeli Prime Minister Sharon.

“Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”  A Huxley

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, November 7, 2007 at 10:01 pm Link to this comment

Holding Zionism To Account

Open Letter to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice

From Alan Hart, author of Zionism: The Real Enemy of the Jews

“Dear Secretary Rice,

11/06/07 “ICH”—- -According to a widely quoted Reuters report, you are “so anxious not to repeat mistakes of past Middle East peace-making” that you sought the advice of, among others, former President Jimmy Carter. (The others included, apparently, former President Bill Clinton and three of your predecessors – Henry Kissinger, James Baker and Madeleine Albright).

Your spokesman, Sean McCormack, was quoted as saying: “She’s trying to draw on the historical record and the experience of others to see what she can glean and how far that may be applicable to the current day… She is a student of history and has a keen appreciation for how we can apply the lessons of history, what we can learn from those who have gone before us.”

Apparently you’ve also been “scouring historical records for pointers”.

And, most impressive of all, you’ve made it clear that you will devote all of your energy in the Bush administration’s final 14 months “to get what others have failed to attain in the past – a viable, independent Palestinian state living side by side with a secure Israel.”

Secretary of State, in principle it really IS do-able, it’s the practise that’s the problem, and I’ll come to that in a moment.

I am presuming to offer you some advice because, although I say it myself, I know the Middle East at least as well and perhaps even better than any of those (the named ones) you have consulted on your side of the water. In my television reporting and early book-writing days, for example, I enjoyed, uniquely, initimate access to, and on the human level friendship with, the two greatest opposite in all of human history, Golda Meir, Mother Israel, and Yasser Arafat, Father Palestine. One way and another I have been engaged with the conflict in and over Palestine, and why a resolution of it has remained beyond the reach of politics and diplomacy, for slightly more than four decades. (The Gentile me first went to Israel as a 23 year-old ITN reporter in 1965).

The problem with the “historical record” - I mean the first and still existing draft of Judeo-Christian history - is that it’s mostly nonsense. Propaganda nonsense. Zionist propaganda nonsense. At its core are two myths.

One is that the Zionist state of Israel has lived in constant danger of annihilation, the “driving into the sea” of its Jews. The truth of history is that Israel’s existence has never, ever, been in danger. Not in 19448/49. Not in 1956. Not in 1967. And not even in 1973. Zionism’s assertion to the contrary was the cover which allowed Israel to get away where it mattered most, America and Western Europe, with presenting its aggression as self-defence and itself as the victim when it was, and is, the oppressor.

The other is that Israel has not had a Palestinian partner for peace. The truth of history on this account is that the ground for peace on the Palestinian side was prepared by Yasser Arafat as far back as 1979 – more than a quarter of a century ago. In that year, 1979, Arafat persuaded the Palestine National Council, the highest decision-making body on the Palestinian side, to back his policy of politics and (until then) unthinkable compromise with Israel.”

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article18672.htm

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, November 7, 2007 at 9:53 pm Link to this comment

Re #112161 by Howard on 11/07 at 11:58 am
(Some friend we have in the Saudi’s as they have been inferring they will not be attending Annapolis meetings.  As of this date, anyway.
——————————————————————————
Howard,

I do not blame the Saudis for this. I would no more talk to Bush than Hitler. He is a man utterly without honor or moral integrity. Any agreements with him would be worthless. I do not expect Annapolis to succeed. Progress toward peace cannot be made as long as this administration remains in power.

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, November 7, 2007 at 9:46 pm Link to this comment

Op-Ed: Israeli occupation: Injustice in our name
November 5, 2007
By Amanda Gelender

“I am Jewish. I state that at the beginning of this op-ed so that when you read it, you will not immediately discount me as anti-Semitic. For those of you unfamiliar with the rhetoric of Middle Eastern affairs, this frightening and overtly racist phenomenon occurs whenever human rights activists like myself hold Israel to the same international standards as we hold all other nations; non-Jews are delegitimized as having an innate prejudice against Jewish people. But you don’t have to worry about that, because, as I previously stated, I am Jewish.

In fact, I write this op-ed on behalf of the Jewish Committee on Human Rights (J-COHR), formerly Jews for Justice in Palestine. We are socially conscious Jews who have joined Students Confronting Apartheid by Israel (SCAI) to create a united front of students, alumni, staff, faculty and community members to persuade Stanford’s Board of Trustees to divest from corporations violating international law and supporting human rights abuses in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories.

Some of you may wonder, “Why do you focus on Israel? Aren’t there lots of human rights abuses that deserve our attention?” It’s true, there are many human rights abuses occurring across the world, including violations in our own country. All of these injustices merit recognition, and Israel is no exception. We single out Israel for the same reason that others single out Darfur or Burma: because there are atrocious human rights abuses occurring in a specific socio-political context. But more importantly, we focus on Israel because it is the number one recipient of US foreign aid, most of which is in the form of military grants. As American citizens and taxpayers, a better question might be: “Why not focus on Israel?”

Americans have a unique culpability for Israeli injustices, as the U.S. supports Israel’s occupation of Palestine with more than $7 million in foreign aid per day, totaling $108 billion over the last 50 years (Source: “Washington Report on Middle East Affairs,” 2006). While Israel comprises one tenth of one percent of the world’s population, the U.S. gives Israel approximately one-third of our foreign aid budget, totaling more aid for Israel than Africa, Latin America and the Caribbean combined if aid to Egypt and Colombia is extracted from the total (Source: “Washington Report on Middle East Affairs,” 2002).

Given this tremendous sum of U.S. aid coupled with its appalling human rights record, Israel deserves our criticism and consideration just as much as other nations; subjugation in other countries does not negate that which occurs in Israel. As Desmond Tutu has said, “Divestment from apartheid South Africa was certainly no less justified because there was repression elsewhere on the African continent.”

But what is Israel doing that is so wrong?” you may wonder. According to B’Tselem, an Israeli human rights organization, since September 2000 the Israeli military has killed 4,267 Palestinians (861 of whom were children) and demolished 4,170 Palestinian homes. The Israeli military subjects Palestinians to hundreds of military checkpoints within the Palestinian territories, effectively obstructing their ability to access employment, education and medical care. Israel has detained more than 15 percent of the total Palestinian population in the territories since 1967 (Source: Palestine Monitor). Israel confiscates Palestinian land to build Jewish-only settlements which strategically annex agricultural and water resources from Palestinian civilians.”

=======================
Click on URL for the rest of the details:

http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2007/11/5/opedIsraeliOccupationInjusticeInOurName

Report this

By Howard, November 7, 2007 at 9:20 pm Link to this comment

RE:  112191 by Tony Wicher on 11/07 at 3:16 pm

Tony,
    I think you will have to come over for a few beers since we have much to go over. Would be more fun, for sure. No?
I don’t think, to start with, that this comment from you is accurate:
          “I believe the reason the negotiations have not succeeded so far is only secondarily Arab terrorism, but primarily that the Israelis are not serious about a two-state solution, because they think they have the power to take over the whole area and they are not really interested in negotiations”.
==========================================

A two-state solution is possible. Israel is not going to commit suicide by having a one state situation.. And if Arab terrorism is terminated, peace will follow. Nobody wants to negotiate more than the Israelis.  They have reason to be skeptical. Convince them of security.  They’re like from Missouri.

What if the Arabs had accepted the United Nations partition plan of 1947, dividing thr remainder of mandatory Palestine into a Jewish state and an Arab state?  What if in the aftermath of Israel’s 1948 war of independence the Arab states had assimilated the refugees into their societies, rather than leave them to fester in refugee camps for generations ?

What if the Arabs had created a Palestinian state in the West Bank between 1948 and 1967, when it was held by Jordan?  What if Jordan had heeded Israel’s pleas at the outbreak of the Six-Day War and not joined the attack?

What if the Palestininas had accepted the “Clinton parameters” in late 2000, calling for the creation of a Palestinina state on more than 90 percent of the West Bank, all of Gaza and with East Jerusalem as its capital? What if in the wake of Israel’s unilateral disengagement from Gaza in 2005 the Palestiniians had sought to create a viable society rather than a launching pad for rockets aimed at Israel?

And what if the Saudi peace proposal was not premised on the “right of return” of Palestinians into pre-1967 Israel?

Report this
PatrickHenry's avatar

By PatrickHenry, November 7, 2007 at 5:42 pm Link to this comment

Howard,

Hardly a democracy,

http://desertpeace.blogspot.com/2007/10/facts-you-may-not-know-about-israel.html

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, November 7, 2007 at 4:16 pm Link to this comment

Re #112161 by Howard on 11/07 at 11:58 am

“Well, Tony, Israel is a democratic country.”

Howard,

Maybe you would understand my position better if I am willing to agree with you that Israel is a democratic country, but then we must define “Israel” as an area that does not include include the West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem. This is the viewpoint of Jimmy Carter in “Peace not Apartheid”. Then I see two possibilities: (1) Israel fully withdraws from these areas in accordance with international law, as Carter, Chomsky, Finkelstein, Lerner, the United Nations and the international community agree, or (2) These areas become part of Israel, in which case Israeli democracy must extend to include as full and equal citizens all persons currently residing in these areas. I really believe that in the course of seriously negotiating (1), negotiators on both sides will realize that (2) is better for both Palestinians and Israelis, a win-win solution. I believe the reason the negotiations have not succeeded so far is only secondarily Arab terrorism, but primarily that the Israelis are not serious about a two-state solution, because they think they have the power to take over the whole area and they are not really interested in negotiations. They only pretend to be for publicity purposes. I think they will not be serious as long as the United States backs their intransigent position, which it does, not because it loves Israel, but because this serves the hegemonic agenda of U.S. imperialists. If Israel were made to get serious by being given no alternative to complete withdrawal, then the “one democratic state” (ODS) option proposed by the most progressive and democratic elements on the Palestinian side will start to look more and more attractive. Then Israel can join with democratic elements on the Palestinian side to marginalize the Zionist and Islamic fanatics on both sides and make this solution a reality.

Report this

By Howard, November 7, 2007 at 12:58 pm Link to this comment

RE:  #112144 by Tony Wicher on 11/07 at 10:49 am

Well, Tony, Israel is a democratic country. The Pal,s. btw, could have had a state about 3 different times since 1948.  Maybe this time negotiatins will continue forward for benefit of all.

  Israel has already accepted the idea of establishing a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza . What is more problematic is the expectation that East Jerusalem would be its capital, but, even on this highly sensitive issue, Israel has discussed compromises (all of which have been rejected by the Palestinians). Nothing is stopping the Palestinians from establishing all the trappings of statehood today in Gaza. Progress toward an Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank and the realization of Palestinian independence is held up only by the Palestinian Authority’s inability and unwillingness to stop terrorist attacks against Israel; and of course, Hamas sending rockets into Israel every day. Refusing to ever talk to Israel. And swears to Israel’s destruction. Could make some negotiators a little apprehensive, eh ?

  Instead of asking why Israel does not accept the peace initiative, a better question would be why the Arab League nations do not have peace agreements with Israel now. Besides the Syrians and Palestinians, Israel has no territorial dispute with any of the other members of the Arab League. Some nations were prepared to normalize relations with Israel before the latest outbreak of violence, but they were coerced to cease contacts by Saudi Arabia.

  Some friend we have in the Saudi’s as they have been inferring they will not be attending Annapolis meetings.  As of this date, anyway.

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, November 7, 2007 at 11:49 am Link to this comment

Re #112072 by Howard on 11/07 at 4:05 am

I think we are beginning to understand each other! Now we can talk about anything in a constructive way, without suspecting each other’s motives, as two human beings of good will putting their heads together to find peace.

For example, now we can talk about the merits of a two-state versus a one-state solution without having a war about it. My answer is that either is perfectly possible. Theoretically, universal principles of democracy inclines me to favor a one democratic state solution. In this my position has actually been more “radical” than that of Finkelstein, Chomsky or Michael Lerner. They all favor versions of the two-state solution. My position has been about the same as that of Alan Pappe (Author of “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine”) which considers the situation analogous to South Africa, which was resolved not by partition of the country into a “White” area and a “Black” area, but by transformation to a democracy in which all persons residing in the country are equal citizens. South Africa is a successful example of such a transition, and I believe it can be applied to Israel/Palestine. The most democratic, progressive Palestinian intellectuals favor this position. I have a problem with partition in any form, because from a theoretical standpoint I don’t see how it solves the problem. It looks to me that the result would be two states, one Jewish and one Arab, and therefore neither of which is democratic,  which would have oppressed minorities that would continue to be the cause of endless conflict. So I keep saying that democracy, not partition is the answer. However, Lerner, Finkelstein and Chomsky have convinced me to put the “one democratic state” idea on the back burner and concentrate on simply getting Israel to acknowedge its obligations under international law, which means to support the the two-state solution that is currently the international consensus. If they would do that, I believe they might discover in the course of the negotiations that the one democratic state is actually a better deal for both sides.

Gotta go.

Report this

By Aretologist, November 7, 2007 at 11:34 am Link to this comment

“The whole secret, power, and knowledge of their own lie is locked within them - they know it and feel it; they have the whole thing in them.”    Thomas Wolfe,

AIPAC and other Jewish groups have so much reason to be ashamed and feel guilty.  They possess so much intelligence - always analysing others clearly and seeing things plainly while failing to analyse themselves and see themselves clearly.

Their hypocrisy - and the reason they are hypocrites -  is self evident.

They are always demanding and fighting for justice and equality for others - a levelling throughout the world - but they don’t want justice and equality for the Palestinians. Because that would mean they would have to level themselves.

If they let the Palestinian people get up - if the Israelis took their collective boots off of the Palestinian people’s necks and let them get up stand up and be decent human beings and give them justice - it might cause a lowering - a “levelling down” of themselves.

The Israelis are also afraid that if they let the Palestinians up -  gave them genuine freedom - the Palestinians might end up showing the world that they are decent human beings - something that most of the “normal” Israeli society obviously is not.

Levelling never ever can apply to them simply because God chose them to be mankind’s “blessing and light.”

A teacher and a bless-er can never be equal to those he is educating and blessing.

How can one be equal to “ignorant and afflicted” mankind unless you too are ignorant and cursed? So logic and reason prevents the “normal” Jew from being equal to anyone except another “normal” Jew.

“Men’s natural (individual) abilities are too dull to see through everything at once; but by consulting, listening, and debating and watching - and thinking - they grow more acute, and while they are trying all means, they at last discover those which they want, which all approve, but no one would have thought of in the first place.”  Spinoza

Report this

By Howard, November 7, 2007 at 5:05 am Link to this comment

RE: #112048 by Tony Wicher on 11/06 at 11:58 pm

Right Tony, good for you.  The Israeli gov’t does care. Just like Americans care about financially helping the survivors and relatives of the victims of the towers in NYC.

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, November 7, 2007 at 1:03 am Link to this comment

Here’s another one, Howard. “Nobody cares but him”, you say? Yes, nobody but him cares about the Holocaust survivors. That might be close to the truth.

Last update - 10:38 06/08/2007 | Haaretz
By Daniel Ben Simon

It’s difficult to remember when security last had been so flimsy for a demonstration outside the Prime Minister’s Office in Jerusalem. All the frantic nervousness characterizing the most closely guarded compound in Israel, if not the entire Middle East, disappeared Sunday during the Holocaust survivors’ protest.

Thousands of protesters marched hundreds of meters from the Wohl Rose Park to the Prime Minister’s Office unhindered, while security guards kept a very low profile. The last thing they needed was a violent clash with the Holocaust survivors.

Foreign journalists were visibly taken aback by the bizarre spectacle of a Jewish state apparently at war with Jewish Holocaust survivors, who were angrily protesting what they considered a miserable stipend offer from the government.

“I don’t think any government in Europe could resist the demands of people who have suffered so much,” one of them said.

Ze’ev Dratva, a Holocaust survivor, was among the marchers. “How many years do the survivors have left? Barely a year or two,” he shouted.

He said he knew survivors who were miserable, and could not afford false teeth or one warm meal a day.

Some survivors were comforted by the sight of the thousands marching for them, including the youths carrying anti-government posters. Yehuda Frenkel, who came from Kiryat Haim, was moved. He could not remember a greater show of solidarity since he immigrated to Israel, after surviving the concentration camps. He had objected to the demonstration at first, if only because of the shame and embarrassment. But in view of the government’s callousness, he had concluded there was no other way.

“I want the Germans to know where the money they gave Israel went,” he said angrily. “I want the Germans to know that Israel took the money we should have received. I want them to answer one question: Where did our money go?”

The demonstration was not only about the meager stipends, it was about the lost honor of people who already had been robbed of their humanity in the Holocaust. As long as their struggle was kept among themselves, they didn’t dare to make too much noise. But as soon as their campaign rattled Israeli indifference, they gathered their last bit of strength and went to Jerusalem to show the government that they were nobody’s fools.

“I came all the way from Ramat Gan to protest the humiliation of the Holocaust survivors,” said Haya Rosenbaum in a shaking voice. She stretched out her left arm, on which the number 53684 had been etched.

She often had considered how much the establishment wished to be rid of those thousands of survivors who were still clinging to life. Otherwise, how could one explain the state’s humiliating treatment?

“It doesn’t matter how much money we’ll get in the end,” said Eva Schoenberger of Petah Tikva. “It’s heartwarming to see so many people have come to support us.”

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, November 7, 2007 at 12:59 am Link to this comment

“Only spends time going after old-survival people looking for reparations for a life lost. Nobody cares but him.”
—————————————————————————
OK, Howard, now I’m going to have to post another article about the Holocaust survivors from the Finkelstein site. Please try to read it with comprehension.

07.31.2007 | Associated Press
By LAURIE COPANS, Associated Press Writer

JERUSALEM - An Israeli government offer of a new $20 monthly stipend for Holocaust survivors provoked outrage Tuesday, with survivors charging the meager allowance will do nothing to make up for years of neglect of the 240,000 Israelis who lived through Nazi horrors.

Survivors have long claimed that European countries treat them far better than Israel, where many elderly survivors live in poverty. Prime Minister Ehud Olmert’s announcement of the new allowance did nothing to change that impression. One survivor called the offer “absurd and insulting.”

Six million Jews were killed by the Nazis during World War II. Hundreds of thousands who survived concentration camps came to Israel after the war. Many suffered physical or psychological damage from the torture and deprivation they suffered at the hands of the Nazis.

Six decades after the war ended, the remaining survivors are elderly, and many have been unable to provide for themselves in their final years, suffering chronic shortages of money for medical and psychological treatment and in some cases even food.

Israel TV showed video of an 85-year-old survivor who said the only meat he could afford was chicken necks.

Olmert presented his program as a solution.

“We are correcting a 60-year-old blight,” he said. “Holocaust survivors living in Israel are entitled to live respectably without reaching a situation in which it is beyond their means to enjoy a hot meal.”

Beginning next year, the amount allocated for 120,000 needy survivors, about half the total number still living in Israel, will be $28 million annually, according to Olmert’s statement.

But that works out to an average of just $20 a month for each survivor.

“Of course the survivors cannot accept such an offer,” said Dubby Arbel, chairman of the Foundation for the Benefit of Holocaust Survivors in Israel. Arbel said about 65,000 survivors are in acute need of assistance, but his foundation can provide for only half of them.

Many survivors were outraged. “This doesn’t solve anything,” said survivor Avraham Roet, 79. “The government doesn’t understand the significance of the Holocaust and what horrors the survivors went through. If they did, they wouldn’t propose this absurd and insulting plan,” he told The Associated Press.

The new payment is in addition to government support already given to survivors, including those deemed physically or psychologically handicapped, and regular pension payments of about $487 a month.

Survivors groups charged — in what was meant to be an especially painful dig at the Israeli government — that survivors are treated better in Germany.

“We know what the conditions of the Holocaust survivors are in Holland, France, Germany and Poland. They are much better than in Israel,” Noah Frug, chairman of a consortium of Holocaust survivors’ organizations and a survivor himself, told Israel Radio.

(continued below)

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, November 7, 2007 at 12:58 am Link to this comment

(AP article continued)

Hillary Kessler-Godin, spokeswoman for Conference on Jewish Material Claims Against Germany, said Germany still pays monthly pensions to 80,000 survivors around the world, after starting in the 1950s.

“Each survivor’s pension can be different depending on their persecution history,” she told the AP. Other funds have paid out billions of dollars to various categories of Nazi victims.

Roet said the average stipend for survivors in Holland, where he was born, is between $2,740 and $4,110 a month.

Arbel urged Olmert to raise the allowance “for the sake of Jewish identity and Zionist identity, and so that we can all tell our grandchildren that we took care of the Holocaust survivors.”

“For 42 years I received nothing from the state,” survivor Kathleen Schwartz, 71, told the newspaper Haaretz. “This grant has arrived too late for thousands of survivors. Time is working against us.”

Critics maintain that more of the nearly $80 billion in reparations Israel has received in compensation from Germany should have gone to the survivors. A large percentage of the money, which was paid beginning in the 1950s as Israelis struggled to build their fledgling state, went to the military and for infrastructure.

Associated Press Correspondent David McHugh contributed to this report from Berlin.

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, November 7, 2007 at 12:38 am Link to this comment

Now, Tony W., I won’t give up on you.

Norm F. is not a denier like the Iranian pres., or Mr. Duke, but he is a denier of its relevance and making a cottage industry of it.  Never a word about the severity of that tragedy.  I’ve read and been to his web-page many times and cannot fathom his reasoning.  Or hatred of the Jewish people, or the Israeli people, and never, ever, says a bad word or immodest word bout Hamas, Hezeballah, or terrorists or suicide bombers.
I can see both sides; know you can.  But not him. Only spends time going after old-survival people looking for reparations for a life lost. Nobody cares but him.
All he does is try to do is make a buck by being irrational. In these irrational times.
Here’s a direct quote from him off his page and he’s never ever been to Israel.

“Yet, it is an incontestable fact that Israel has committed a broad range of human rights violations, many rising to the level of war crimes and crimes against humanity “
——————————————————————————-
Howard

But this is an incontestable fact, and having been to Israel is neither necessary nor sufficient to establish it. What’s so surprising? It is also true that the United States has “committed a broad range of human rights violations, many rising to the level of war crimes and crimes against humanity” - of which the current Iraq war and the Vietnam war are the two most prominent examples. These are crimes which dwarf anything Israel has ever done, wars of aggression and domination and conquest which have resulted in the deaths of millions of people. The United States is the world’s number one rogue nation. Israel is only second. Does that make me a “self-hating American”?  Hardly. I am an American patriot who is appalled at what is happening to his country and is trying to turn it around before our freedom is completely gone.

Report this

By Howard, November 6, 2007 at 9:02 pm Link to this comment

Now, Tony W., I won’t give up on you.

Norm F. is not a denier like the Iranian pres., or Mr. Duke,  but he is a denier of its relevance and making a cottage industry of it.  Never a word about the severity of that tragedy.  I’ve read and been to his web-page many times and cannot fathom his reasoning.  Or hatred of the Jewish people, or the Israeli people, and never, ever, says a bad word or immodest word bout Hamas, Hezeballah, or terrorists or suicide bombers.
  I can see both sides; know you can.  But not him. Only spends time going after old-survival people looking for reparations for a life lost. Nobody cares but him.
  All he does is try to do is make a buck by being irrational. In these irrational times.
Here’s a direct quote from him off his page and he’s never ever been to Israel.

  “Yet, it is an incontestable fact that Israel has committed a broad range of human rights violations, many rising to the level of war crimes and crimes against humanity ”

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, November 6, 2007 at 8:41 pm Link to this comment

Re #111937 by Howard on 11/06 at 9:07 am

Now this post is a little more like it. This at least begins as a scholarly critique of M & W. It may be be valid or not; we would have to read the whole article to make an informed judgment. It would not surprise me if at least some of the criticisms made by Mead are valid. I have to tell you, I consider myself a connoisseur of good scholarship, and in my opinion, M & W, though recognized as distinguished scholars from a distinguished institution, do not come close to the excellence of Finkelstein.

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, November 6, 2007 at 7:58 pm Link to this comment

Re #111886 by Howard on 11/06 at 4:38 am
(168 comments total)

“Finkelstein was fired by DePaul and by two earlier schools in New York
because he never published a single academic paper in a bona fide academic
journal, and because he spent his university time producing vulgar
obscenities and anti-Semitic hate screeds. In a few other cases,
anti-Semitic academics have indeed been fired or denied tenure in the US,
but in all these cases this has been because they had embarrassingly thin publication records, consisting of little more than hate screeds and propaganda”
——————————————————————————
Howard, I am about to give up on you. It’s just no use, you don’t respond to people. You don’t listen. You don’t read what other people post. We might as well be talking to the Israeli security fence.

One last time: Robert’s post has an interview with Raul Hilberg. Do you know who he is? He is the worlds greatest, most distiguished, universally recognized scholarly expert on the history of the Holocaust. Everyone agrees to this. Hilberg praises the quality of Finkelstein’s scholarship very highly.

Don’t take my word for it. Look Hilberg up in Wikipedia. He’s quite well known. Actually, he just died a couple of months ago. The first paragraph of the Wikipedia entry reads: 

“Raul Hilberg (June 2, 1926 - August 4, 2007 in Williston, Vermont) was one of the best-known and most distinguished of Holocaust historians. His three-volume, 1,273-page The Destruction of the European Jews is regarded as the seminal study of the Nazi Final Solution. He was elected to the American Academy of Arts and Sciences on April 26, 2005.”

Given the universal esteem in which Raul Hilberg is held, shouldn’t you be doubting those who call Finkelstein a Holocaust denier? Shouldn’t you be wondering if they have been making a fool of you?

Open your eyes, man!

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, November 6, 2007 at 6:47 pm Link to this comment

Police: Jewish GW Student Admits Putting Swastikas On Her Door

WASHINGTON—George Washington University officials said a Jewish student who complained about swastikas showing up on her door put them there herself.

The student lives in Mitchell Hall, where half a dozen swastikas had shown up on her dorm room door in the past several weeks.

University police set up a hidden camera. They said the girl admitted responsibility Monday.

 

“It’s a big story,” said Jake Sherman, GW Hatchet editor. “Thirty percent of GW students are Jewish”

Reporters at the GW Hatchet newspaper have been following the story since it began. They said they learned on Monday morning that the alleged victim would likely be implicated.

They said they spoke to her twice by phone.

According to reporters at the newspaper, the student said, “I wasn’t looking to create this sort of insanity. I wasn’t looking to become a media darling. I was just looking for acknowledgment from the university that someone drew a swastika on the door.”

The student now faces disciplinary action from the school and could face criminal charges.

 


http://video.nbc4.com/player/?id=179503

Report this

By Howard, November 6, 2007 at 10:07 am Link to this comment

Walter Russell Mead
From Foreign Affairs, November/December 2007

The Israel Lobby. John J. Mearsheimer, Stephan M. Walt

“The book’s problems start very early and run very deep. Mearsheimer and Walt outline the case they plan to make on page 14: “The United States provides Israel with extraordinary material aid and diplomatic support, the lobby is the principal reason for that support, and this uncritical and unconditional support is not in the national interest.” Note the slippage. The “extraordinary” support of the first clause quietly mutates into the “uncritical and unconditional” support of the last. “Extraordinary” is hardly the same thing as “uncritical and unconditional,” but the authors proceed as if it were. They claim the clarity and authority of rigorous logic, but their methods are loose and rhetorical. This singularly unhappy marriage—between the pretensions of serious political analysis and the standards of the casual op-ed—both undercuts the case they wish to make and gives much of the book a disagreeably disingenuous tone.

Rarely in professional literature does one encounter such a gap between aspiration and performance as there is in The Israel Lobby. Mearsheimer and Walt fail to define “the lobby” in a clear way. Their accounts of the ways in which it exercises power, as well as their descriptions of the power it wields, are incoherent. Their use of evidence is uneven. At the level of geopolitics, their handling of the complex realities and crosscurrents of the Middle East fails to establish either the incontestable definition of the national interest that their argument requires or the superiority they claim for the policies they propose.”


.

Report this

By Aretologist, November 6, 2007 at 9:12 am Link to this comment


“The structure of reality is such that falsity is bound sooner or later to come to light.” Berdyaev

To belong to a group such as AIPAC, you must en masse agree not to notice certain aspects of group’s activities - and not to question anything that contradicts AIPAC’s conduct or thinking and opposes the groups goals - even if the group’s conduct is unethical and immoral.           

In this collective agreement objection based on any ethical grounds, is stifled and discouraged. This necessitates the creation of a “corrupted reality.”

Actual reality is denied or altered to prevent consonant dissonance - feelings of guilt and shame.

Uncorrupted reality is minimized, denied, explained away or called something else.

What the majority of the (hopelessly inculcated) people believe is all that matters. Public opinion. And public opinion has been carefully created - conditioned by the group’s public relations agency - America’s mass media.

To manage the consonant dissonance, to deal with the reality of what they are actually doing - and why - the truth is minimized, denied, explained away, called something else - reality is corrupted.

Semantics plays a big part and is used by the group to minimize and refute what is actually occurring.

To overcome any feeling of guilt and shame the group will also employ their “higher-calling card”  to justify their unethical and immoral endeavours.

Thus the “pompous end” they all working together towards absolutely absolves them of any guilt they would feel if they were decent human beings - excuses the unethical means they’ve used to keep America’s politicians subservient to them and America subservient to Israel and it pardons their crimes against humanity - the cruel and inhuman treatment of the Palestinians - (which has produced the division and disharmony and hate in the world today).

This “Ace-higher-calling” card they slip out of their cerebral sleeves, absolves them of everything - control of America, extermination of the Palestinians, ghoulish cluster bombing Lebanon after a peace had been arranged - and, of course,  what ever horror America (their “main squeeze”  and “principal puppet”) does for them in Iran and Syria.  And in the mind’s of many of America’s politicians their “higher calling” card also absolves us for whatever we do to others for them.

As for the group as a whole here is what one former(now “self-hating”) member of the group said:

“In our organization there were two very clear unwritten rules; the first was that there is nothing wrong with us or with what we are doing; the second was - never tell anyone what we’re doing.”

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, November 6, 2007 at 6:57 am Link to this comment

(Continued from previous comment)
“GOODMAN: Professor Shlaim, what about the whole issue of when you criticize the Israeli government, being charged with anti-Semitism? What is your response to this? You were born in Iraq. You’re also an Israeli citizen and then moved to Britain?

AVI SHLAIM: I am. I was born in Baghdad. I grew up in Israel. I served in IDF. And for the last forty years, I have lived in Britain, and I teach at Oxford. My academic discipline is international relations, and I am a specialist in the Arab-Israeli conflict.

And I think that there is no—that we must be very careful to separate questions of anti-Semitism from critique of Israel. I am critical of Israel as a scholar, and anti-Semitism just doesn’t come into it. My view is that the blind supporters of Israel—and there are many of them in America, in particular—use the charge of anti-Semitism to try and silence legitimate criticism of Israeli practices. I regard this as moral blackmail. Israel has no immunity to criticism, moral immunity to criticism, because of the Holocaust. Israel is a sovereign nation-state, and it should be judged by the same standards as any other state. And Norman Finkelstein is a very serious critic and a very well-informed critic and hard-hitting critic of Israeli practices in the occupation and dispossession of the Palestinians.

His last book, Beyond Chutzpah, is based on an amazing amount of research. He seems to have read everything. He has gone through the reports of Israeli groups, of human rights groups, Human Rights Watch and Peace Now and B’Tselem, all of the reports of Amnesty International. And he deploys all this evidence from Israeli and other sources in order to sustain his critique of Israeli practices, Israeli violations of human rights of the Palestinians, Israeli house demolitions, the targeted assassinations of Palestinian militants, the cutting down of trees, the building of the wall—the security barrier on the West Bank, which is illegal—the restrictions imposed on the Palestinians in the West Bank, and so on and so forth. I find his critique extremely detailed, well-documented and accurate.

GOODMAN: Professor Hilberg, like you, Norman Finkelstein is the son of Holocaust victims, his mother and his father both in concentration camps. Your final thoughts on this whole dispute and whether Norman Finkelstein should get tenure at DePaul University in Chicago?

RAUL HILBERG: Well, let me say at the outset, I would not, unasked, offer advice to the university in which he now serves. Having been in a university for thirty-five years myself and engaged in its politics, I know that outside interferences are most unwelcome. I will say, however, that I am impressed by the analytical abilities of Finkelstein. He is, when all is said and done, a highly trained political scientist who was given a PhD degree by a highly prestigious university. This should not be overlooked. Granted, this, by itself, may not establish him as a scholar.

However, leaving aside the question of style—and here, I agree that it’s not my style either—the substance of the matter is most important here, particularly because Finkelstein, when he published this book, was alone. It takes an enormous amount of academic courage to speak the truth when no one else is out there to support him. And so, I think that given this acuity of vision and analytical power, demonstrating that the Swiss banks did not owe the money, that even though survivors were beneficiaries of the funds that were distributed, they came, when all is said and done, from places that were not obligated to pay that money. That takes a great amount of courage in and of itself. So I would say that his place in the whole history of writing history is assured, and that those who in the end are proven right triumph, and he will be among those who will have triumphed, albeit, it so seems, at great cost.”

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=1011

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, November 6, 2007 at 6:53 am Link to this comment

(Continued from previous comment)
AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to bring Professor Avi Shlaim into this discussion, a professor of international relations at Oxford University, has written numerous books, including The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World. Can you talk about the significance of Professor Finkelstein’s work?

AVI SHLAIM: Yes. I think very highly of Professor Finkelstein. I regard him as a very able, very erudite and original scholar who has made an important contribution to the study of Zionism, to the study of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and, in particular, to the study of American attitudes towards Israel and towards the Middle East.

Professor Finkelstein specializes in exposing spurious scholarship on the Arab-Israeli conflict. And he has a very impressive track record in this respect. He was a very promising graduate student in history at Princeton, when a book by Joan Peters appeared, called From Time Immemorial, and he wrote the most savage exposition in critique of this book. It was a systematic demolition of this book. The book argued, incidentally, that Palestine was a land without a people for people without a land. And Professor Finkelstein exposed it as a hoax, and he showed how dishonest the scholarship or spurious scholarship was in the entire book. And he paid the price for his courage, and he has been a marked man, in a sense, in America ever since. His most recent book is Beyond Chutzpah, follows in the same vein of criticizing and exposing biases and distortions and falsifications in what Americans write about Israel and about the Middle East. So I consider him to be a very impressive and a very learned and careful scholar.

I would like to make one last point, which is that his style is very polemical, and I don’t particularly enjoy the strident polemical style that he employs. On the other hand, what really matters in the final analysis is the content, and the content of his books, in my judgment, is of very high quality.

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, November 6, 2007 at 6:49 am Link to this comment

(Continued from previous comment)
“AMY GOODMAN: The battle over political science professor Finkelstein to receive tenure at DePaul University is heating up. Finkelstein is one of the country’s foremost critics of Israeli policy. Professor Finkelstein has accused Dershowitz of being responsible for leading the effort to deny him tenure. In an interview with the Harvard Crimson, Dershowitz admitted he had sent a letter to DePaul faculty members lobbying against Finkelstein’s tenure. Then, last week the Wall Street published an article by Dershowitz titled “Finkelstein’s Bigotry.” In it, Dershowitz accuses Finkelstein of being an anti-Semite and says he “does not do scholarship in any meaningful sense.” Professor Finkelstein’s two main topics of focus over his career have been the Holocaust and Israeli policy.

Today, we’re joined by two world-renowned scholars in these fields. Raul Hilberg is one of the best known and most distinguished of Holocaust historians. He is author of the seminal three-volume work, The Destruction of the European Jews. He’s considered the founder of Holocaust studies. He joins us from his home in Vermont. Avi Shlaim is a professor of international relations at Oxford University in Britain. He is the author of numerous books, most notably The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World. He’s widely regarded as one of the world’s leading authorities on the Israeli-Arab conflict.

We’ll begin in Vermont with Professor Hilberg. Can you talk about Professor Finkelstein’s contribution to Holocaust studies with his book, The Holocaust Industry?

RAUL HILBERG: Yes. I read this book, which was published about seven years ago, even as I, myself, was researching actions brought against Swiss companies, notably banks, but also other enterprises in insurance and in manufacturing. And the gist of all of these claims, all of these actions, was that somehow the Swiss banks, in particular, and other enterprises, as well, owed money to Jews or the survivors or the living descendants of people who were victims. The actions were brought by claims lawyers, by the World Jewish Congress, which joined them, and a blitz was launched in the newspapers. Congressmen and senators were mobilized, officials of regulatory agencies in New York and elsewhere. Threats were issued in the nature of withdrawal of pension funds, of boycotts, of bad publicity.

And I was struck by the fact, even as I, myself, was researching the same territory that Professor Finkelstein was covering, that the Swiss did not owe that money, that the $1,250,000,000 that were agreed as a settlement to be paid to the claimants was something that in very plain language was extorted from the Swiss. I had, in fact, relied upon the same sources that Professor Finkelstein used, perhaps in addition some Swiss items. I was in Switzerland at the height of the crisis, and I heard from so-called forensic accountants about how totally surprised the Swiss were by this outburst. There is no other word for it.

Now, Finkelstein was the first to publish what was happening in his book The Holocaust Industry. And when I was asked to endorse the book, I did so with specific reference to these claims. I felt that within the Jewish community over the centuries, nothing like it had ever happened. And even though these days a couple of billion dollars are sometimes referred to as an accounting error and not worthy of discussion, there is a psychological dimension here which not must be underestimated.

I was also struck by the fact that Finkelstein was being attacked over and over. And granted, his style is a little different from mine, but I was saying the same thing, and I had published my results in that three-volume work, published in 2003 by Yale University Press, and I did not hear from anybody a critical word about what I said, even though it was the same substantive conclusion that Finkelstein had offered. So that’s the gist of the matter right then and there.”

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, November 6, 2007 at 6:36 am Link to this comment

“It Takes an Enormous Amount of Courage to Speak the Truth When No One Else is Out There”—World-Renowned Holocaust, Israel Scholars Defend DePaul Professor Norman Finkelstein as He Fights for Tenure”

by Amy Goodman

The battle over political science professor Norman Finkelstein to receive tenure at DePaul University is heating up. Finkelstein has taught at DePaul for the past six years. Finkelstein’s two main topics of focus over his career have been the Holocaust and Israeli policy. We speak to two world-renowned scholars in these fields: Raul Hilberg, considered the founder of Holocaust studies, and Avi Shlaim, a professor of international relations at Oxford University and an expert on the Arab-Israeli conflict. Shlaim calls Finkelstein a “very impressive, learned and careful scholar”, while Hilberg praises Finkelstein’s “acuity of vision and analytical power.” Hilberg says: “It takes an enormous amount of courage to speak the truth when no one else is out there to support him.” [includes rush transcript]

The battle over political science professor Norman Finkelstein to receive tenure at DePaul University is heating up. Finkelstein - one of the country’s foremost critics of Israeli policy - has taught at DePaul for the past six years. His tenure has been overwhelmingly approved at the departmental and college level, but the dean of the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences has opposed it. A final decision is expected to be made in the coming weeks. Finkelstein has accused Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz of being responsible for leading the effort to deny him tenure. In an interview with the Harvard Crimson, Dershowitz admitted that he had sent a letter to DePaul faculty members lobbying against Finkelstein’s tenure. Then last week the Wall Street Journal published an article by Dershowitz titled “Finkelstein’s Bigotry.” In it, Dershowitz accuses Finkelstein of being an “anti-Semite” and says that he “does not do ‘scholarship’ in any meaningful sense.”

Finkelstein’s two main topics of focus over his career have been the Holocaust and Israeli policy. Today we are joined by two world-renowned scholars in these fields:
Raul Hilberg. One of the best-known and most distinguished of Holocaust historians. He is author of the seminal three-volume work “The Destruction of the European Jews” and is considered the founder of Holocaust studies. He joins us on the line from his home in Vermont.
Avi Shlaim. Professor of international relations at Oxford University. He is the author of numerous books, most notably “The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World.” He is widely regarded as one of the world’s leading authorities on the Israeli-Arab conflict.

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=1011

Report this

By Howard, November 6, 2007 at 5:38 am Link to this comment

Finkelstein was fired by DePaul and by two earlier schools in New York
because he never published a single academic paper in a bona fide academic
journal, and because he spent his university time producing vulgar
obscenities and anti-Semitic hate screeds. In a few other cases,
anti-Semitic academics have indeed been fired or denied tenure in the US,
but in all these cases this has been because they had embarrassingly thin
publication records, consisting of little more than hate screeds and
propaganda.

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, November 6, 2007 at 1:25 am Link to this comment

Howard, (continued from below)

Next you wrote: “Marc Fisher of the Washington Post correctly described Finkelstein as “ a writer celebrated by neo-Nazi groups for his Holocaust revisionism and comparisons of Israel to Nazi Germany **Fisher, Marc. “Campus Should Cultivate Its Seeds of Debate.” Washington Post (Dec. 3 2002) [Online article].”
——————————————————————————
Howard,
You say somebody named Marc Fisher “correctly” described Finkelestein as a writer celebrated by Neo-Nazis. It’s true that Neo-Nazis such as David Duke like to quote Finkelstein when it suits their purposes. They also quote everybody from George Washington to Jesus Christ when it serves their purposes. To blame Finkelstein for this is called guilt by association, a well-known technique employed by smear artists from Goebbles to McCarthy to Dershowitz. As to Finkelstein being a “Holocaust Revisionist”, in the sense of one who minimizes the horror, the suffering or the number of dead, there is no one of whom this is less true than Norman Finklestein. On the contrary, he was motivated to write “The Holocaust Industry” precisely because he hold the memory of the Holocaust martyrs holy, and he is profoundly angered and disgusted to see that memory exploited and besmirched by those who use it for their own profit. Also, these people use the genuine guilt and shame that non-Jews feel about the Holocaust to aggrandize themselves. When those non-Jewish people sense this is happening, they get resentful that their human decency is being taken advantage of and start to get anti-Semitic. We are seeing examples of that among the posters on this thread.

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, November 6, 2007 at 1:20 am Link to this comment

Howard,

OK, I will try to deal with your “sources” (or whatever these statements are) as best I can.
Let’s start with this:
“One eminent scholar added:
“No facts alleged by Finkelstein should be assumed to be really facts, no quotations in his book should be assumed to be accurate, without taking the time to carefully compare his claims with the sources he cites . . . Such an examination reveals that many of those assertions are pure invention..”
**Novick, Peter. Offense Fenster und Tueren. Uben Norman Finkelstein Keuzzug, in: Petra Steinberger (ed.): Die Finkelstein-Debatte, (Piper verlag: Muenchen 2001), p. 159 (translated from German)
—————————————————————————-
All I get out of this is that there is somebody I never heard of named Peter Novick, who wrote a book I never heard of called “The Finkelstein Debate” who says that many of Finkelstein’s “assertions are pure invention.” How is that supposed to carry any weight, when you do not go on to give us even one example from Novick’s book assertion that he says Finkelstein makes, and of how Novick shows that assertion to be “pure invention” by “taking the time to carefully compare his claims with the sources he cites”. If you can do that, then we can judge for ourselves. We can look for the assertion in Finkelstein’s writing to make sure it is really there and exactly as quoted. If we don’t find it, we will say that Novick is the fabricator, not Finkelstein. If we do find it, we can look at the surrounding context and so grasp the full meaning of what Finkelstein is saying, and see if Novick has taken it out of context or distorted it. If so, we will conclude that Novick and not Finkelstein is the fabricator. If the meaning is understood, we can go on to consider the evidence or substantiation or proof that Finkelstein offers for that statement. Then we can make up our own minds about whether it is “pure fabrication” or not. This is how real scholarship proceeds, through evidence and reasoning. 
————————————————-
Next, you offer the following:
“Finkelstein also loves Hezbollah, the terror organization whose leader said, “If Jews all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.”
**Nasrallah, Hassan, quoted in Lappin, Elena. “The Enemy Within.” New York Times (May 23 2004).”
——————————————————————————
Howard, What proof do you have for the statement that “Finkelstein also loves Hezbollah”? It sounds laughable, but if you can actually find anywhere that Finkelstein has said “I love Hezbollah”, I will bow before you. And what does something Hassan Nasrallah is alleged to have said by somebody named Elena Lapin writing in the New York Times have to do with Finkelstein?
———————————————————————-
That’s about all the room I have in one post

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, November 5, 2007 at 11:51 pm Link to this comment

Re #111789 by Mitch on 11/05 at 11:04 am

This is what racism is. At least he admits it, which is a good start.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, November 5, 2007 at 7:20 pm Link to this comment

Non Credo on 11/05 at 3:16 pm
(453 comments total)

ITW writes:

“1) I don’t think the US has “nefarious” motives.  But I do think the people currently running our government do.  And need to be evicted.”
——————-

Well, good grief, of COURSE I also distinguish between governments, citizens, and ethnicities!

For example, here is something I might well say: “In 1953, the US cynically and criminally connived to overthrow the democratically elected, secular leader of Iran, installing the Shah as dictator, because the duly elected president of Iran wanted to nationalize the oil fields.” When you read that, do you, even for one second, imagine that by “the US” I mean, “the American people - because of their evil inborn nature, and the inherent evil of ethnically similar people in all times and places - overthrew the government of Iran…”? Of course not!

Well then, please presume that the same, obvious distinctions apply when I write: “In the summer of 2006, Israel viciously and illegally carpeted south Lebanon with US-supplied cluster bombs, an especially shocking crime considering that this was in the course of the weekend AFTER the ceasefire was declared but before it went into effect.”

I do NOT mean that, “The Israeli people, due to the inmost and immutably nefarious nature of Israelis, and indeed of Jews generally, carpeted south Lebanon with cluster bombs….”

Again, let me point out that the the government of Israel encourages this confusion, by calling itself the nation, not of its citizens, but of “the Jewish people”. This ideology is perfectly crafted to perpetuate pernicious misunderstandings, don’t you think?

********************

Well, it looks like we are FINALLY in the same ball-park and not comparing apples to penguin eggs!

I did notice you left out two teensy little facts—Hezbollah invaded Israel and captured two Israeli soldiers who haven’t been seen since.  Israel’s response was an attempt to pound Hezbollah into submission, who was hiding their weapons and rocket-launching cites in the middle of civilian           towns.

So, who is more inhumane: Those who use innocents as human shields for their military and terrorist activities or those who bomb the shit out of them anyway?  Hezbollah has no more regard for those Lebanese civilians than the world accuses Israel of.

The problem I see is that Israel f***‘d this operation up so badly that it must have been run from the Bush White House.  It a) didn’t get the soldiers back, b) didn’t really hurt Hezbollah all that much and c) made them look like stormtroopers to the world.  But it was brought on them by Hezbollah, which has no business there.

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, November 5, 2007 at 6:06 pm Link to this comment

Re #111815 by Non Credo on 11/05 at 3:16 pm
(453 comments total)

“Again, let me point out that the the government of Israel encourages this confusion, by calling itself the nation, not of its citizens, but of “the Jewish people”. This ideology is perfectly crafted to perpetuate pernicious misunderstandings, don’t you think?”
—————————————————————————-
NC, this a great post. Perfectly clear. I don’t see how ITW or Howard could take exception to a word of it.

Report this

By Howard, November 5, 2007 at 2:26 pm Link to this comment

There is an excellant review of this book by Mersheimer & Walt at the site here.  Reviewer is WALTER RUSSELL MEAD . He is Henry A. Kissinger Senior Fellow for U.S. Foreign Policy at the Council on Foreign Relations.

The site is for the Foreign Affairs Magazine
http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20071101fareviewessay86611/walter-russell-mead/jerusalem-syndrome.html

I only have the first paragraph below:
——————————————————-

“John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt claim that they want The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy “to foster a more clear-eyed and candid discussion of this subject.” Unfortunately, that is not going to happen. “The Israel Lobby” will harden and freeze positions rather than open them up. It will delay rather than hasten the development of new U.S. policies in the Middle East. It will confuse the policy debate not just in the United States but throughout the world as well, while giving aid and comfort to anti-Semites wherever they are found. All of this is deeply contrary to the intentions of the authors; written in haste, the book will be repented at leisure ”

Report this

By Myronh, November 5, 2007 at 2:17 pm Link to this comment

Mitch,

My view is based on actual exposure and observation. I also read that many others share my views. Jimmy Carter shares my views. Is he shallow and uninformed?Do you think that 2 percent of the population should have so much representation in Congress? What ever happened to Majority rule? Doesn’t that represent more than 50 percent, not 2 percent?Why not elect Native Americans to represent all of us in Congress? Wouldn’t that be more logical? They were here first.

Myron

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, November 5, 2007 at 1:22 pm Link to this comment

Re #111782 by Howard on 11/05 at 10:18 am
(163 comments total)

“Here is the ‘source’ for the ‘eminent scholar’ and a few others with citations.  Now , Tony, I’m not here to defend or approve either Israel or the Pal’s.  I can take either side. I’ve got 2 friends on the block who are Palestinian and 1 on the next block from Israel and we all get along together (whether over beer or coffee) and discuss the situation and get along better than everyone here seems to do.”
——————————————————————————-
Hey, Howard, you’re really a human being after all! What a surprise! We should get together and have a beer too, I really mean it! Let us not allow our intellectual predilections to come between us.

As to your sources, however, I feel that you do not understand what it means to substantiate an assertion, to prove it or provide evidence for it. You seem to lack the necessary scholarly experience. I will try to explain to you what I mean by going over your sources in detail later. It will take a little time and I have to get back to working for a living.

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, November 5, 2007 at 1:08 pm Link to this comment

FYI

Call Your Senators Today,
Day of Action on Cluster Bombs

Today, Monday, November 5, the US Campaign to End the Israeli Occupation joins the Friends Committee on National Legislation, Amnesty International USA, United for Peace and Justice, and many other organizations in a global day of action on cluster bombs.

During its war on Lebanon last summer, Israel dropped 130,000 cluster bombs containing 1.2 million cluster bomblets in 498 locations in villages throughout the south of the country. Unexploded cluster bomblets subsequently have injured and killed civilians.  Only 20% of Israel’s unexploded cluster bombs have been cleared in Lebanon because Israel has refused to turn over cluster munitions strike data to the UN.  These cluster bombs are given to Israel by the United States and paid for by U.S. taxpayers like you. 

When countries gather in early December to continue negotiating a global cluster bomb ban treaty, the U.S. will be conspicuously absent. The U.S. should not isolate itself on yet another issue of global concern. Congress needs to pass the Cluster Munitions Civilian Protection Act (S.594) next year to bring the U.S. into line with the emerging global consensus against the use of a weapon which overwhelmingly kills civilians. Call your senators on November 5 and ask them to support this bill.

Who Should You Call?
Do you live in California or Vermont? Both your senators are already supporting this bill, so you don’t need to call them today. But you can write to your representative and urge her or him to cosponsor the companion bill in the House.
Do you live in Iowa, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Mexico, Ohio, Rhode Island, Washington, or Wisconsin? One of your senators has already cosponsored, so please call your other senator! Senators that need calls are Charles Grassley (IA), Ben Cardin (MD), John Kerry (MA), Pete Domenici (NM), George Voinovich (OH), Jack Reed (RI), Patty Murray (WA), or Herb Kohl (WI).
Do you live in any other state? You should call both of your senators and ask them to cosponsor the bill!
How to Make Your Calls
Call your senators using FCNL’s special toll free number: (800) 352-1897
This number connects you to the Capitol Switchboard. You will need to ask for your senator by name. Find out who your senators are.
Once you are directed to the office, ask to speak to the legislative assistant who deals with military and national security issues.
After you call one senator’s office, call back and ask for your other senator.
Script for your Call
Please feel free to improvise and add additional information.

My name is [NAME], and I live in [CITY, STATE].Thanks for taking my call.
I’m calling to encourage Senator [SENATOR’S NAME] to cosponsor S. 594, the Cluster Munitions Civilian Protection Act. Will that be possible?
Thank you.
The administration’s position is that the military benefits outweigh the civilian costs. We disagree.

Day of Action Cosponsors
Adopt A Minefield, American Friends Service Committee, UNA-USA, American Task Force for Lebanon, Amnesty International USA, Just Foreign Policy, Maryknoll Office for Global Concerns, Maine Campaign to Ban Cluster Bombs, Massachusetts Peace Action, Mennonite Central Committee (Washington Office), Oregon Peace Works, Peace Action New York, Peace Action West, United for Peace and Justice, U.S. Campaign to End the Israeli Occupation, U.S. Fund for UNICEF, Veterans for Peace, WAND.

Report this

By Mitch, November 5, 2007 at 12:04 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Myronh:


I am amazed that you would characterize your view of a country / race, based on a few choice encounters with people. Seems to be overtly shallow.

Report this

By Howard, November 5, 2007 at 11:18 am Link to this comment

#111755 by Tony Wicher on 11/05 at 7:45 am
“First of all, you do not even have the temerity to tell us who this “eminent scholar” is. Your mentor Dershowitz again, I suppose. If you would at least tell me who this person is”
==============================================
====================================

Here is the ‘source’ for the ‘eminent scholar’ and a few others with citations.  Now , Tony, I’m not here to defend or approve either Israel or the Pal’s.  I can take either side. I’ve got 2 friends on the block who are Palestinian and 1 on the next block from Israel and we all get along together (whether over beer or coffee) and discuss the situation and get along better than everyone here seems to do. They have taught me (and my neighbors) a lot.  Mainly that extremists on both sides are to be avoided.  Solves nothing and both sides have them.  Finkelstein and Chomsky are on one side and there are book writers and essayist writers on the other side,also..  Both sides have good ideas and points. But the two I mentioned—especially when I go to Finkelsteins web page, only bash Israel badly.  No slacke cut at all. . Unusual. I’ve seen some of them on the Israeli side at least criticize Israel.  No one does it more than the Israelis themselves. 

  A two state solution is the answer and perhaps in near future it will happen.
—————————-

One eminent scholar added:
“No facts alleged by Finkelstein should be assumed to be really facts, no quotations in his book should be assumed to be accurate, without taking the time to carefully compare his claims with the sources he cites . . . Such an examination reveals that many of those assertions are pure invention..”
**Novick, Peter. Offense Fenster und Tueren. Uben Norman Finkelstein Keuzzug, in: Petra Steinberger (ed.): Die Finkelstein-Debatte, (Piper verlag: Muenchen 2001), p. 159 (translated from German)
————————————————-
Finkelstein also loves Hezbollah, the terror organization whose leader said, “If Jews all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.”
**Nasrallah, Hassan, quoted in Lappin, Elena. “The Enemy Within.” New York Times (May 23 2004).
——————————————————————————
Marc Fisher of the Washington Post correctly described Finkelstein as ” a writer celebrated by neo-Nazi groups for his Holocaust revisionism and comparisons of Israel to Nazi Germany
**Fisher, Marc. “Campus Should Cultivate Its Seeds of Debate.” Washington Post (Dec. 3 2002) [Online article].
——————————————————————-
A New York Times review by a leading expert of Finkelstein’s book The Holocaust Industry called it:
“. . . a novel variation on the anti-Semitic forgery, “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion” [It] verges on paranoia and would serve anti-Semites around the world.”
**Bartov, Omer. “A Tale of Two Holocausts.” New York Times (Aug. 6 2000)
————————————————————
Others describe Finkelstein’s theories as “crackpot ideas, some of them mirrored almost verbatim in the propaganda put out by neo-Nazis all over the world.”
**Schoenfeld, Gabriel. “Holocaust Reparations,” Commentary (Jan. 2001).
————————————————————

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, November 5, 2007 at 10:50 am Link to this comment

Non Credo on 11/05 at 8:35 am
(452 comments total)

ITW writes:

‘Never once have I EVER demanded a non-questioning anything-goes acceptance of Israeli actions or behavior.  I whole-heartedly support serious, valid criticism.  Nor do I advocate Americans “loving” Israel or any nation other than the USA.’
———————-

ITW:

I know that you don’t demand that Israel not be criticized. But you DO demand that Israel be criticized from a basic standpoint of, for lack of a better word, affectionate attachment. Otherwise, one is an “anti-Semite”. Consider the implications of the following, for example:

By way of showing me to be “anti-Semitic”, at one point you cited, as proof, the fact that I have attributed “nefarious motives” to Israel’s actions. The implication of this is: anyone who is not an anti-Semite should be incapable of attributing nefarious motives to Israel’s actions. Notice that you do NOT hesitate to attribute nefarious motives to the US’s actions (for example, US motives for going to war against Iraq).

This is why I say that you hold me and yourself to a different standard when it comes to criticizing Israel. When the US government does something bad, you don’t hesitiate, to say, “Oh, they just did it to steal the oil, or to give fat contracts to the military industrialists.” But when Israel does something bad, you wring your hands and say, “Oh gee, this is terrible. Israel’s actions, while guided by the best intentions, have been tragically counterproductive, though completely understandable.”

The US can have “nefarious motives” aplenty. ITW, the courageous liberal, will not shrink from citing them. But Israel couldn’t possibly have “nefarious motives.” Only people who hate Jews and yearn for a new Holocaust could think otherwise.

**************

NC: You have misunderstood me so completely and totally that I’m flabbergasted.  But I think I can untangle it quickly.

1) I don’t think the US has “nefarious” motives.  But I do think the people currently running our government do.  And need to be evicted.

2) Likewise, I don’t think Israel has “nefarious” motives, but certain sectors of the government certainly do, and those waiting on the wings of the Right (Netanyahu and his ilk) most certainly have “nefarious” motives and hopefully be kept out of power.

3) There is a difference between the two nations: we are a presidential system, they are a parliamentary one.  That means our executive branch is usually controlled solely by the party of the President.  Their executive branch represents which party holds which portfolio.

4) We form coalitions in Congress, the law-making branch, but not in the executive, the law-enforcing branch.  Israel, as a parliamentary systems, must make coalition executive compromises, to “Form a government”—a phrase that just doesn’t apply to the US.

5) This “affection” for Israel is nothing more than the belief that she has a right to exist, that despite her problems she is STILL the most liberal, most democratic and most open society in the region—-but the Likudists would turn her into another theocratic dictatorship.

6) You want me to say it? OK—I’ve overstated my case against your views and you have surprised me with being more open than I thought.  If I’ve misjudged you too harshly, I appologize.

Report this

By Aretologist, November 5, 2007 at 10:43 am Link to this comment

“We are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor to tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.”  Thomas Jefferson

In Plato’s Republic the ideal state would be a highly regulated.  A small group of dedicated citizens - a highly educated minority - whose intelligence, wisdom, and character had already been amply proved would govern the state. They would control this ideal state, direct its education, and guide its thought.  Personal rights would be subordinate to the state governed by the privileged minority for only the state had absolute validity. Justice was fused with the aims and goals of the state which was devised and approved by the powerful elite. Anti-state thinking was not tolerated.

In 1794 the French mathematician Condorcet became cognizant of the activities of a small group of people belong to the same religion and postulated that because of the innocence and ignorance of the majority of the French people, an educated,  cunning, highly organized minority could gain enough power in the country to be able to indoctrinate the French people and create powerful elite oligarchy with the dedicated minority at the helm behind a democratic “smoke screen.”

The conditioning, indoctrination and finally subservience of an unaware majority - by a highly organized, highly educated,  unethical minority - is possible and doable.

Why? Because the disingenuousness, intelligence and determination of the minority is much greater than that of the generally trusting and unsuspecting majority.

Once they have gained control of a country what do you think the highly organized minority want of all the politicians (the majority elects)?

Mediocrity, loyalty, obedience, stupidity, cowardice.  Of the highest order. The greater the level of mediocrity and obedience the happier it makes them.

“Only mediocrity can be trusted to be always at its best.”  Max Beerbohm

Not only in the executive branch, the Courts, on Capital Hill, but also in the UN. Everywhere possible.

The highly educated minority doesn’t want nor need anyone with brains. They have all the brains the world need.

That is how they managed to gain control and make the country subservient to them in the first place.

The highly dedicated minority know want mediocrities of the highest level because they know that mediocre politicians will always go along to get along. Mediocre politicians are easier to control because they are always grateful - that they are actually being paid for doing something in such a low-grade manner surprises them. And makes them indebted to whoever helped them pull the wool over everybody’s eyes.

They also want people with little intelligence running the country because highly uneducated people don’t know when of for what reason is a good time to be courageous. Politicians with little intelligence or individuality and character usually are mediocre and thus don’t know for what precepts and principles courage should be directed and employed. They believe it is courageous to fight “terrorism” but not AIPAC who uses coercion and intimidation
to keep our politicians in their unethical control.

But isn’t coercion and intimidation another form of terror-ism?

Report this

By Myronh, November 5, 2007 at 10:41 am Link to this comment

I have been following this controversy since it first opened in TruthDig. I will start by denying hatred for people of Jewish heritage. I will readily admit that I dislike some of the characteristics displayed by some Jews. I can also say that I admire a politician, such as the late Paul Wellstone, for unequivocal rejection of the Gulf War. My personal experience has certainly influenced my feelings regarding US politicians that back blind-servitude to Israel. Continual US financial backing of Israel definitely sends a disturbing message to the Arab world.

It is obvious the Israel Lobby has too much influence in US politics. Our citizens of Jewish heritage have way too much influence in US politics, considering they represent less than 2 percent of the US population. I was raised by a first generation American-Norwegian who was very sympathetic to the plight of the Jews during and immediately after WWII. He couldn’t understand why many of our rural/farmer neighbors harbored such ill feelings for the Jews.

I have been to Israel twice in the past 12-years, both times on business working in the Industrial and Electrical Utility business. When I started my first trip I was 60-years old and had always had a high regard for the Jews, regardless where they lived. Unfortunately, I encountered people and attitudes that made me question my compassion for them. Rather than help resolve a problem, I found that the Jewish Management people preferred to argue and shout amongst themselves. When I complained about the time being wasted in what I considered childish bickering, I was told by the Manager of a large steel fabrication plant that I should understand that this was the Jewish customs/heritage; I felt like telling him their “heritage” might explain why the Jews had been chased around the world for the past several thousand years. I had to work with one Engineer who tried every trick possible to get a Plant Manager fired because that Manager had been hired instead of the Engineer’s close friend. I saw the average Arab being treated like dirt; no respect shown by any of the Jews that I worked with. My most recent experience with a Jew came at a very nice vacation hotel in Duluth Minnesota. My Sister-in-law was just starting into the complimentary breakfast line when she was almost knocked over by a 60ish Jewish man who just pushed himself in front of her. He never apologized or excused himself in any manner. His air of arrogance and superiority was enough to make me lose my appetite. I am of the opinion that most people only become prejudiced against a person of a different race or ethnic origin when confronted with personal behavior that is unacceptable in most civilized societies. Acceptance by society should be earned, not necessarily expected.

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, November 5, 2007 at 8:45 am Link to this comment

Re #111723 by Howard Dershowitz Jr. on 11/05 at 4:12 am

Leon Wieseltier of the New Republic wrote: “You don’t know who Finkelstein is. He’s poison, he’s a disgusting self-hating Jew, he’s something you find under a rock.” Others describe Finkelstein’s theories as “crackpot ideas, some of them mirrored almost verbatim in the propaganda put out by neo-Nazis all over the world.”

“One eminent scholar added:
“No facts alleged by Finkelstein should be assumed to be really facts, no quotations in his book should be assumed to be accurate, without taking the time to carefully compare his claims with the sources he cites . . . Such an examination reveals that many of those assertions are pure invention. “
——————————————————————————
Howard Dershowitz Jr,

First of all, you do not even have the temerity to tell us who this “eminent scholar” is. Your mentor Dershowitz again, I suppose. If you would at least tell me who this person is, I could do what he recommends, which is to “compare the claims he made with the sources he cites.” But he does not cite any, any more than you do. Go ahead, I challenge you: find one sentence in any publication or talk by Finkelstein or Chomsky and do what this alleged scholar recommends, which is to “compare the claims made with the sources he sites” and show that any of his assertions are even slightly inaccurate, let alone “pure invention”.  I would like to see it. But I know you will just repeat the same old defamatory Dershowitz-McCarthy-Rush Limbaugh-Joseph Goebbles-  garbage. It’s not worth my time.

Report this

Page 2 of 6 pages  <  1 2 3 4 >  Last »

 
Right 1, Site wide - BlogAds Premium
 
Right 2, Site wide - Blogads
 
Join the Liberal Blog Advertising Network
 
 
 
Right Skyscraper, Site Wide
 
Join the Liberal Blog Advertising Network
 

A Progressive Journal of News and Opinion   Publisher, Zuade Kaufman   Editor, Robert Scheer
© 2014 Truthdig, LLC. All rights reserved.