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This Is What Resistance Looks Like

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Posted on Apr 4, 2011
AP / Reed Saxon

A woman who sympathizes with people whose homes have been foreclosed is arrested at a protest outside a Chase bank in Los Angeles.

By Chris Hedges

(Page 2)

“If Bank of America paid their fair share of taxes, planned cuts of $1.7 billion in early childhood education, including Head Start & Title 1, would not be needed,” Zeese pointed out. “Bank of America avoids paying taxes by using subsidiaries in offshore tax havens. To eliminate their taxes, they reinvest proceeds overseas, instead of bringing the dollars home, thereby undermining the U.S. economy and avoiding federal taxes. Big Finance, like Bank of America, contributes to record deficits that are resulting in massive cuts to basic services in federal and state governments.”

The big banks and corporations are parasites. They greedily devour the entrails of the nation in a quest for profit, thrusting us all into serfdom and polluting and poisoning the ecosystem that sustains the human species. They have gobbled up more than a trillion dollars from the Department of Treasury and the Federal Reserve and created tiny enclaves of wealth and privilege where corporate managers replicate the decadence of the Forbidden City and Versailles. Those outside the gates, however, struggle to find work and watch helplessly as food and commodity prices rocket upward. The owners of one out of seven houses are now behind on their mortgage payments. In 2010 there were 3.8 million foreclosure filings and bank repossessions topped 2.8 million, a 2 percent increase over 2009 and a 23 percent increase over 2008. This record looks set to be broken in 2011. And no one in the Congress, the Obama White House, the courts or the press, all beholden to corporate money, will step in to stop or denounce the assault on families. Our ruling elite, including Barack Obama, are courtiers, shameless hedonists of power, who kneel before Wall Street and daily sell us out. The top corporate plutocrats are pulling down $900,000 an hour while one in four children depends on food stamps to eat.

We don’t need leaders. We don’t need directives from above. We don’t need formal organizations. We don’t need to waste our time appealing to the Democratic Party or writing letters to the editor. We don’t need more diatribes on the Internet. We need to physically get into the public square and create a mass movement. We need you and a few of your neighbors to begin it. We need you to walk down to your Bank of America branch and protest. We need you to come to Union Square. And once you do that you begin to create a force these elites always desperately try to snuff out—resistance.

Chris Hedges’ column appears every Monday at Truthdig. Hedges, a fellow at The Nation Institute and a Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist, is the author of “Death of the Liberal Class.”

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ThomasG's avatar

By ThomasG, July 27, 2011 at 8:53 am Link to this comment

I invite response to the content of my posts; the Right-Wing tactic
of personal attack against the messenger, those who post
commentary
, as an alternative to dealing with the content of
what is posted is unacceptable behavior.

I post commentary on the Truthdig forum in support of the social
interests of community; recently a claim has been made that I post
in support of Corporate interests; I invite all who make this claim
to provide examples of posts that I have made that they consider
to be in support of Corporate interests; without examples of what
I have posted that is considered by those making this accusation
to be in support of Corporate interests, this accusation is a
personal attack against me in an effort to silence what I say and
to divert dealing with the content of what I have posted by way of
standard Right-Wing procedure of accuse, condemn,
denounce, and destroy personally those who make the post,
the messenger, rather than to deal with the content of
what is posted, the message.

I ask that all who respond to my posts respond to the content of
my posts, rather than respond to my posts by way of the
standard Lite-RIGHT and HARD-RIGHT process of personal
attack to accuse, condemn, denounce, and destroy personally

those who post contrary to their own personal view and aims, so
that we can engage in dialogue and dig for the truth of content.

Those who are timid and insecure can be silenced by personal
attacks against them, and those who use this tactic do so because
it is effective as a tactic to silence opposition to their own political
point of view and political perspective; this type of behavior is
shameful, and those who use it as a tactic for the purpose I have
stated should be ashamed, but I know, and all should know, that
they are not, because doing so is a politically effective standard
tactic for Lite-RIGHT and HARD-RIGHT control of the American
Populace, the 70% Majority Common Population.

Report this

By Jorge X Rodriguez, July 27, 2011 at 4:59 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)


‘Night-Gaunt, July 26 at 1:43 pm Link to this comment

Appears they have won again. The enemy rules until we can exterpate you from here.’

No one is reading this thread anyway.

Report this
ThomasG's avatar

By ThomasG, July 27, 2011 at 1:21 am Link to this comment

The aim of the American Aristocracy as a Class and Culture is to
remain permanently in power and authority as the American
Aristocracy.

The aim of the American Middle Class as a Class and Culture is to
replace the American Aristocracy.

The aim of the American Populace, the 70% Majority Common
Population of the United States is life, liberty, and the pursuit of
happiness with freedom and justice for all.

The aim of the American Aristocracy is institutionalized and
empowered by U.S. Constitutional authority to participate in the
making and enforcing of legislated law and order by way of the
United States Senate.

The aim of the American Middle Class is institutionalized and
empowered by U.S. Constitutional authority to participate in the
making and enforcing of legislated law and order by way of the
United States House of Representatives.

The aim of the American Populace, the 70% Majority Common
Population of the United States—life, liberty, and the pursuit of
happiness with freedom and justice for all is NOT institutionalized
and empowered by U.S. Constitutional authority to participate in
the making and enforcing of legislated law and order by way of the
Congress of the United States.

Why is it that in a nation, the United States of America, that has
claimed democracy for 235 years in the World Arena, and
continues at present to do so,  empowers the aim of the American
Aristocracy in institutionalized authority to make and enforce
legislated law and order, empowers the aim of the American
Middle Class in institutionalized authority to make and enforce
legislated law and order, and consciously with intent and purpose
has at present DENIED the American Populace as a 70% Majority
Common Population of the United States as a Class and Cultural
Majority Population of the United States, Co-Equal Institutionalized
Power and Authority to make and enforce legislated law and order
that is representative of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness
of the American Populace with freedom and justice for all of the
American Populace???????

Is American Style Democracy for the American Aristocracy and the
American Middle Class that EXCLUDES the American Populace a
proper Standard of Democracy that the American Populace should
embrace???????——The answer is emphatically NO!!!

Selective Democracy for the few of the American
Aristocracy and the American Middle Class at the expense of the
many, the American Populace, the 70% Majority Common
Population of the United States, is NOT democracy at all; it is Class
and Cultural Tyranny of the many, the American Populace, by the
select few, the American Aristocracy and the American Middle
Class, and this type of oppressive and tyrannical selective
democracy
that is sham and false democracy for the few at
the expense of the many, the American Populace, must come to an
end by way of the American Populace taking its rightful place in the
Congress of the United States as a Co-Equal Class and Cultural
Participant alongside the American Aristocracy and the American
Middle Class in the making and enforcing of legislated law and
order in the United States that is representative of the aims of the
American Populace.

Report this
ThomasG's avatar

By ThomasG, July 27, 2011 at 12:40 am Link to this comment

Good citizenship and patriotism for the American Populace, the
70% Majority Common Population of the United States, as a
standard is based upon “genuine belief in deliberate lies.”

The American Dream of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness
with freedom and justice for all is a “genuine belief in a
deliberate lie.”

This is so, because there are three distinct and different
classes and cultures in the United States, the American
Aristocracy
, the American Middle Class, and the
American Populace.

Of the three differing and distinct classes and
cultures
in the United States, only two of those
classes and cultures are represented in the Congress of the
United States to engage in the making and enforcing of legislated
law and order, and one is NOT represented in the making
and enforcing of legislated law and order in the Congress of the
United States.

The American Aristocracy and the American Middle Class, as
Classes and Cultures, ARE represented in the Congress of the
United States, and thereby, empowered to make and enforce
legislated law and order.

The American Populace is NOT represented as a Class and Culture in the Congress of the United States and is NOT empowered to make and enforce legislated law and order that represents the
Class and Cultural Interests of the American Populace.

It is, therefore, a “deliberate lie” to preach the American
Dream of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness with freedom
and justice for all to the American people from the “cradle to the
grave” when TWO Minority Classes and Cultures, the
American Aristocracy and the American Middle Class, dominate the
making and enforcing of legislated law and order that
regulates the standard of life, liberty, and the pursuit of
happiness with freedom and justice for all, and that legislated law
and order EXCLUDES the American Populace, the 70% Majority
Common Population of the United States as a Co-Equal Class and
Cultural Participant in the making and enforcing of legislated law
and order in the United States a standard of legislation
without representation
that the American Populace is made
subject to.

As I said at the outset, the American Dream of life, liberty, and the
pursuit of happiness with freedom and justice for all is a
“deliberate lie.”
  I have given the reason why the American
Dream of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness with freedom
and justice for all is a “deliberate lie.”

It is time for a change in the United States from an American
Dream that is a “deliberate lie” to an American Reality
that is a dynamic certainty.

It is time for an American Reality in the United States that is
inclusive of the American Populace, a 70% Majority
Common Population of the United States, to be represented in the
Congress of the United States as a Class and Culture on a
Co-Equal Basis with the American Aristocracy in the Senate and
the American Middle Class in the House of Representatives, and
participate on a Co-Equal Basis in the making and enforcing of
legislated law and order that is inclusive of the class and
cultural interests of the American Populace, the 70% Majority
Common Population of the United States.

It is time for a change.

It is time for the “deliberate lie” of the American Dream
to become the deliberate reality of Co-Equal Class and
Cultural Participation of the American Populace with the American
Aristocracy and the American Middle Class
in the making and
enforcing of legislated law and order in the Congress of the United
States.

Report this
ThomasG's avatar

By ThomasG, July 26, 2011 at 11:40 pm Link to this comment

George Orwell speaking through the characters in his Novel,
“1984” tells where government sanctioned linguistic control by
way of sophism, dialectic, and propaganda by the Lite-RIGHT
and HARD-RIGHT Political Duopoly of the Democratic
Party/Republican Party
leads.

Orwell says, ”... so long as they (the masses) are not
permitted to have standards of comparison they never even
become aware that they are oppressed.”  “The problem, that is to
say, is educational.”  “The consciousness of the masses needs
only to be influenced in a negative way.”  “What opinions the
masses hold, or do not hold, is looked on as a matter of
indifference.  They can be granted intellectual liberty because they
have no intellect.”  “If human equality is to be forever averted——
if the High, as we have called them, are to keep their places
permanently then the prevailing mental condition must be
controlled insanity.”  “... the whole aim ... is to narrow the range of
thought.”  “In the end ..... there will be no words in which to
express it
” (thought).  In the end there will only be
orthodoxy.  “The whole climate of thought will be different.  In
fact there will be no thought, as we understood it now.  Orthodoxy
means not thinking——not needing to think.  Orthodoxy is
unconsciousness.”
 

We are talking about the orthodoxy of the “New World Order”
here “people.”

The current level of sophism, negative dialectic, and propaganda
being used in the media in the United States and sanctioned by
the government of the United States is well on the way to making
George Orwell’s vision in “1984” into American Reality here in the
United States as a part of “The New World Order.”

Before it is too late, we need to decide whether or not we all want
to live in an Orwellian Reality of a “New World Order” here in the
United States because that is where we are headed,
PEOPLE, if we continue to go along to get along with the
orthodoxy of the Lite-RIGHT and the HARD-RIGHT Political
Duopoly of the Democratic Party and the Republican Party

that is running the government of the United States, controls
linguistics and the press here in the United States, and by way of
the use of the Culture of Critical Discourse hyped by the college
educated as Critical Thinking inexorably reduces American
linguistics into singular orthodoxy for political control that
excludes the American Populace, the 70% Majority Common
Population of the United States, from the making of legislated law
and order that represents the Class and Cultural interests of the
American Populace in favor of a “New World Order.”

The Orwellian Reality of the “New World Order” is coming
“PEOPLE”——Will you willingly go along to get along and
usher it in, or will you STAND UP as a part of the American
Populace, the 70% Majority Common Population of the United
States, demand YOUR place in the Congress of the United States
as a part of the established order of the United States that makes
and enforces the legislated law and order of the American
Populace, the 70% Majority Common Population of the United
States, or will you be content to be a “Prole?”
———The choice is YOURS.

Report this

By Cliff Carson, July 26, 2011 at 2:43 pm Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt

Neither you nor I, can Extirpate Martha or Thomas from this Site.  Only the Webmaster has that power.  It seems it is a power that the Webmaster does not desire to use.

Possibly the Webmaster has not read the “Terms and Conditions”.  There are other reasons still unspoken.  And I’m not sure I want to hear them.

Report this
Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, July 26, 2011 at 1:43 pm Link to this comment

Appears they have won again. The enemy rules until we can exterpate you from here.

Report this
ThomasG's avatar

By ThomasG, July 25, 2011 at 5:43 pm Link to this comment

Why is it that, if we are digging for the truth on the Truthdig forum,
that the Truthdig computer is programmed to edit out words in my
copy and put up a “Page Not Found” denial of my posts when I
talk about the **“S*e*l*e*c*t**F*e*w”** and how to
construct the differing forms of dialectic?

Are these subjects NOT a part of the truth and if they are
summarily denied, unless slipped through Truthdig’s recognition
software, are we not engaging in Falsedig by using “Page Not
Found” denial of “topics of dialogue” as previously
indicated.

In the name of digging for the truth in Truthdig fashion, I ask for
an explanation?

It does not seem inappropriate to me to talk about either the
**“S*e*l*e*c*t***F*e*w”** or how to construct differing
forms of dialectic.

Truthdig’s use of “Page Not Found” restriction of linguistic
content
is a restriction of FREE SPEECH that is inconsistent
with the Truthdig claim inherent in the Truthdig name of the forum,
that of digging for the truth.

Digging for the truth in the manner than ‘Big Brother’ and
‘Emmanuel Goldstein’ dug for the truth in George Orwell’s novel
“1984” was not digging for the truth at all, it was Falsedig, digging
for the false in support of genuine belief in deliberate lies;
Orwellian Truthdig is digging for the truth of genuine belief in
deliberate lies that is Orwellian Doublethink for Falsedig;——Has
Truthdig become False dig?

Has Orwellian reality, the reality of Orwell’s 20th Century Novel
become the 21st Century reality of the Truthdig forum?  Is the
Truthdig forum a tool of the RIGHT being used to herald in the New
World Order of 21st Century Orwellian reality?  If the Truthdig
forum is an operation of Emmanuel Goldstein, and Emmanuel
Goldstein and Big Brother are the same, the LEFT must know
before the LEFT collectively end up in Room 101 in the Ministry of
Love talking to O’Brien.

What do you say, Truthdig forum?  Where does The Truthdig forum
stand with regard to digging for the truth?

Is Truthdig digging for the truth?

Or, is Truthdig digging for the false—“genuine belief in deliberate
lies,” truth that is the equivalent of “The Theory and Practice of
Oligarchical Collectivism” by Emmanuel Goldstein, truth that is
support of Corporate Communism of the “New World Order.”

I want the Truthdig forum to be digging for truth that is primal, but
what I want is irrelevant to what Truthdig says, and does; what
say you Truthdig forum?  ______ What is the meaning of Truthdig
forum’s digging for the truth?

What truth is Truthdig digging for, primal truth or truth of doctrine
based upon sophism, dialectic, and propaganda that is in fact
nothing more than digging for truth that is “genuine belief in
deliberate lies.”  Truthdig forum’s use of “Page Not Found” to
control the use of linguistics and dialogue by posters on the
Truthdig forum has left me wondering what the meaning of
Truthdig forum’s digging for the truth is, and if Truthdig forum does
not make an explanation then Truthdig forum’s use of “Page Not
Found” will speak for itself as to what the Truthdig forum’s
definition of digging for the truth is.

Report this
ThomasG's avatar

By ThomasG, July 25, 2011 at 5:02 pm Link to this comment

The “News of the World” debacle with Rupert Murdoch is about
linguistics of sophism, unbalanced dialectic, and propaganda being
controlled on a WORLD WIDE BASIS by Privatized Capitalism, more
specifically by Private Capitalist Rupert Murdoch, and how
Privatized Capitalism and Rupert Murdoch specifically has used this
power and control both in the United States and abroad as an
instrument of sophism, unbalanced dialectic, and propaganda to
control public opinion.

The “News of the World,” the Fox News Network Broadcasting
System, and the Wall Street Journal are all fingers on the same
hand; we must know about all of the fingers on both hands and
what the mind that controls the fingers on both hands has used
other hands and fingers to manipulate “News of the World” like
activity in the United States in pursuit of sophism, dialectic, and
propaganda to control and manipulate political dialogue in the
United States in pursuit of Subversive Kochroach Activity for the
*“S*e*l*e*c*t**F*e*w”** at the expense of the many.

Report this
ThomasG's avatar

By ThomasG, July 25, 2011 at 4:50 pm Link to this comment

The “News of the World” debacle with Rupert Murdoch is about
linguistics of sophism, unbalanced dialectic, and propaganda being
controlled on a WORLD WIDE BASIS by Privatized Capitalism, more
specifically by Private Capitalist Rupert Murdoch, and how
Privatized Capitalism and Rupert Murdoch specifically has used this
power and control both in the United States and abroad as an
instrument of sophism, unbalanced dialectic, and propaganda to
control public opinion.

The “News of the World,” the Fox News Network Broadcasting
System, and the Wall Street Journal are all fingers on the same
hand; we must know about all of the fingers on both hands and
what the mind that controls the fingers on both hands has used
other hands and fingers to manipulate “News of the World” like
activity in the United States in pursuit of sophism, dialectic, and
propaganda to control and manipulate political dialogue in the
United States in pursuit of Subversive Kochroach Activity for the
*“S*e*l*e*c*t**F*e*w”* at the expense of the many.

Report this
ThomasG's avatar

By ThomasG, July 25, 2011 at 4:18 pm Link to this comment

What is the importance of linguistics with regard
to political discourse:

The importance of linguistics with regard to
political discourse is that linguistics can be used
to lead class and cultural divisions of a society to
accept a false sense of advantage for real
advantage and to lead those same class and
cultural divisions of society to support and vote
for those who are leading them to accept a false
sense of advantage as real advantage.

The Lite-RIGHT and the HARD-RIGHT, the
Middle Class and the American Aristocracy
,
the Democratic Party and the Republican Party,
use linguistics of sophism, manipulative dialectic,
and propaganda to lead the American Populace,
the 70% Majority Common Population of the
United States to accept a false sense of
advantage, that, in fact, is advantage ONLY for
the American Aristocracy and the American Middle
Class; and a false sense of advantage for the
American Populace.

The Middle Class represents the MIDDLE.  What
is there about Middle Class that imputes
representation of the LEFT?  Why should the
Middle Class as a class and culture represent
interests other than those of the Middle Class?

Why would the Left, the American Populace, the
70% Majority Common Population, even think
that the Middle Class would represent the
interests of the Left, rather than the Middle?

The fact is that the RIGHT, the American
Aristocracy, the Republican Party, represents the
RIGHT.

The fact is that the MIDDLE, the Middle Class, the
Democratic Party, represents the MIDDLE.

And, the fact is that the LEFT, the American
Populace, is not represented at all by an
institutionalized political party, is not represented
at all in the Congress of the United States as a
class and culture, and is not represented at all in
the making and enforcing of legislated law and
order in the United States.

These are the sad facts of life, liberty, and the
pursuit of happiness in the United States; life,
liberty, and the pursuit of happiness with
freedom and justice for all that is exclusively for
the American Aristocracy and American Middle
Class that excludes the American Populace, the
70% Majority Common Population of the United
States.

Linguistics can be used to exclude those who are
not “We the People,” linguistics can be used to
include those who are “We the People” and
linguistics can be used to lead those who are not
“We the People,” that are excluded from the
benefit of “We the People” by imparting to them
a false sense of advantage, rather than real
objective advantage of life, liberty, and the
pursuit of happiness with freedom and justice for
all that is the same objective standard of benefit
of life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness with
freedom and justice for all that is objective
benefit for “We the People.”

Linguistics can empower real benefit for “We the
People” and linguistics can sell the false
advantage of an American Dream to those who
are NOT “We the People.”

It is of major importance to be aware of
linguistics and how sophism, manipulative
dialectic, and propaganda are used to impart
both advantage and a false sense of advantage.

Report this
ThomasG's avatar

By ThomasG, July 25, 2011 at 4:08 pm Link to this comment

What is the importance of linguistics with regard
to political discourse:

The importance of linguistics with regard to
political discourse is that linguistics can be used
to lead class and cultural divisions of a society to
accept a false sense of advantage for real
advantage and to lead those same class and
cultural divisions of society to support and vote
for those who are leading them to accept a false
sense of advantage as real advantage.

The Lite-RIGHT and the HARD-RIGHT, the
Middle Class and the American Aristocracy
,
the Democratic Party and the Republican Party,
use linguistics of sophism, manipulative dialectic,
and propaganda to lead the American Populace,
the 70% Majority Common Population of the
United States to accept a false sense of
advantage, that, in fact, is advantage ONLY for
the American Aristocracy and the American Middle
Class; and a false sense of advantage for the
American Populace.

The Middle Class represents the MIDDLE.  What
is there about Middle Class that imputes
representation of the LEFT?  Why should the
Middle Class as a class and culture represent
interests other than those of the Middle Class?

Why would the Left, the American Populace, the
70% Majority Common Population, even think
that the Middle Class would represent the
interests of the Left, rather than the Middle?

The fact is that the RIGHT, the American
Aristocracy, the Republican Party, represents the
RIGHT.

The fact is that the MIDDLE, the Middle Class, the
Democratic Party, represents the MIDDLE.

And, the fact is that the LEFT, the American
Populace, is not represented at all by an
institutionalized political party, is not represented
at all in the Congress of the United States as a
class and culture, and is not represented at all in
the making and enforcing of legislated law and
order in the United States.

These are the sad facts of life, liberty, and the
pursuit of happiness in the United States; life,
liberty, and the pursuit of happiness with
freedom and justice for all that is exclusively for
the American Aristocracy and American Middle
Class that excludes the American Populace, the
70% Majority Common Population of the United
States.

Report this
ThomasG's avatar

By ThomasG, July 25, 2011 at 3:44 pm Link to this comment

The Right-Wing Capitalist minions of the U.S. Congress have been
whining about “static certainty” for the interests of Privatized
Capitalism for quite some time now and today, Sunday, July 24,
2011, on NBC’s “Meet the Press” Bill Daley, President Obama’s
White House Press Secretary joined the Privatized Capitalist whine
about “static certainty” for Privatized Capitalism at the expense of
“dynamic certainty” for the American Populace.

It is not up to the American Populace to guarantee “static
certainty” to Privatized Capitalism at the expense of “dynamic
certainty” to the American Populace.

At the present time the “dynamic certainty” of the American
Populace is mortgaged to give “static certainty” to Privatized
Capitalism with regard to the cyclical recapitalization of their
FAILED toxic capital, origin and maintenance of the commercial
infrastructure of Privatized Capitalism, and innumerable forms and
numbers of Corporate Welfare, and still the whining increases
about MORE “static certainty” for the interests of Privatized
Capitalism at the expense of “dynamic certainty” for the American
Populace.

No one is guarantying “static certainty” to the American Populace,
and what “dynamic certainty” the American Populace has, the
American Populace is providing for itself; Privatized Capitalism is
against socialism and the community interests of communism, YET
they are always whining that the social resources of the American
Populace as a community should be used to provide Privatized
Capitalism with the WELFARE of “static certainty” for Privatized
Capitalist interests at the expense of “dynamic certainty” for the
American Populace.

It is time for a change with regard to “static certainty"for the
interests of Privatized Capital at the expense of “dynamic
certainty” for the American Populace——— The interests of Private
Capital have no more right to “static certainty” at the expense of
the American Populace than the American Populace has to the
right of “static certainty” at the expense of Privatized Capitalism;
and Privatized Capitalism has not given, is not giving, and will not
offer, either “static or dynamic certainty” to the American
Populace; and that is the same amount of certainty that Privatized
Capitalism has a right to expect from the American Populace.

Report this

By Cliff Carson, July 25, 2011 at 3:19 pm Link to this comment

Well Gary Mount I think it is more the fault of the Webmaster.  They have allowed a disrupting influence to continue. 

MarthaA And TomasG are not the only Trolls on here but to allow Trolls and such as M&T to continue their diatribe crap clogging up threads can become Web Page suicide.

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Gary Mont's avatar

By Gary Mont, July 25, 2011 at 3:06 pm Link to this comment

To Thomas and Martha:

Well kids, you’ve won again.

Chalk one more up for the Republican Brownshirts - you now own this forum, lock stock and barrel.

You’ve once again managed to quiet the voices of dissent for your corporate masters.

You have once again managed to help in the destruction of civilization and end the attempts by others to oust your corporate fascist masters from the houses of power.

I guess you two should be very proud of yourselves.
You have certainly earned your keep and made your masters proud.

May your children live in interesting times.
============================================

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ThomasG's avatar

By ThomasG, July 25, 2011 at 11:36 am Link to this comment

Certainty is a consistent theme of the Right, both the
Lite-Right and the Hard-Right, the Democratic Party and the
Republican Party, certainty of the RIGHT based upon the
uncertainty of the LEFT, the American Populace, the 70%
Majority Common Population of the United States.

Certainty that is based upon the uncertainty of others is not
certainty at all
, other than the certainty of the advantaged
taking advantage of the disadvantaged.

Certainty as a linguistic device that is based upon the
uncertainty of others, the certainty that the Right whines
for incessantly, is nothing more than the certainty of
advantage
that the Right feels “entitled” to at the expense of
the Left; this type of certainty, that is uncertainty for
the Left
is the Right-Wing certainty of sophism, manipulative
dialectic, and propaganda, the certainty of Right-Wing propaganda
that is formulated to lead the Left to accept a false sense of
advantage that is uncertainty for the Left in order to
enable actual certainty of advantage for the Right at the expense
of uncertainty, disadvantage, for the Left.

Linguistics is used by the Right in Right-Wing sophism,
manipulative dialectic, and propaganda to lead the Left to accept a
false sense of advantage, disadvantage, in all
aspects of life in the United States, and this has been the case in
an ever increasing degree from the time of Nixon to the present.

If the Left expects to have any kind of life, liberty, and the pursuit
of happiness with freedom and justice for all that is comparable to
the Right; the Left, the American Populace, is going to have to
reject the unbalanced claims of the Right to certainty based
upon the uncertainty of the Left
, and as a 70% Majority
Common Population force sublated balance between the Right and
the Left that is based upon equality, rather than the certainty
of unequality
where the Right has certainty based solely upon
the uncertainty of the Left.

If you are happy having life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness
with freedom and justice for all that is the “freedom of cows in the
field of a Right-Wing farmer,” there is no problem, and you should
go back to eating the green grass in the Right-Wing farmer’s field
and wait to go to your final destination, the slaughter house.

If you are not happy with having to accept the freedom of “cows in
the field” as the freedom of the Left, the American Populace, the
70% Majority Common Population of the United States, it is time to
challenge the fence of the Right-Wing farmer who would make you
as human beings into COWS and subject you to the life, liberty,
and the pursuit of happiness with freedom and justice for all
COWS in the field and use the making and enforcing of legislated
law and order to keep you in the field.

If you are not cows and you are in fact human beings, CHALLENGE
THE FENCE.

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ThomasG's avatar

By ThomasG, July 24, 2011 at 11:51 am Link to this comment

“Perhaps the time has come for a little editorial
intervention.”
— Jorge X Rodriguez, July 16 at 8:12 pm
(Unregistered Truthdig commenter)

“Jorge X Rodriguez, July 16 at 8:12 pm - Jorge you could write to
the Webmaster, click on Contact Us below and you will get the
opportunity to write your complaint.  He will
answer.”
—Shenonymous, July 17 at 5:31 pm

This is What Resistance Looks Like, “PEOPLE!!!”

With regard to <b>“editorial intervention,” editorial
intervention by way of “Page Not Found” is already being
liberally used in the manner indicated by George Orwell in his
novel “1984,” to eliminate supposedly undesired words
from Truthdig commentary on this Truthdig forum.

It is difficult to dig for the truth on the Truthdig forum when the
Truthdig forum uses “Page Not Found” to selectively
restrict linguistic content——words deemed to be inappropriate for
use on the Truthdig forum.

If Truthdig forum is about digging for the truth, instead of digging
for the false, “Falsedig,” “Page Not Found,” as a device to
restrict linguistic content of posts made on the Truthdig forum
must end, and an explanation must be made by the Webmaster of
the Truthdig forum as to why this practice has been and continues
to be used on the Truthdig forum to limit linguistic content in an
Orwellian manner as indicated by George Orwell in “1984.”

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ThomasG's avatar

By ThomasG, July 24, 2011 at 11:49 am Link to this comment

“Perhaps the time has come for a little editorial
intervention.”
— Jorge X Rodriguez, July 16 at 8:12 pm
(Unregistered Truthdig commenter)

“Jorge X Rodriguez, July 16 at 8:12 pm - Jorge you could write to
the Webmaster, click on Contact Us below and you will get the
opportunity to write your complaint.  He will
answer.”
—Shenonymous, July 17 at 5:31 pm

This is What Resistance Looks Like, “PEOPLE!!!”

With regard to “editorial intervention,” editorial
intervention by way of “Page Not Found” is already being
liberally used in the manner indicated by George Orwell in his
novel “1984,” to eliminate supposedly undesired words
from Truthdig commentary on this Truthdig forum.

It is difficult to dig for the truth on the Truthdig forum when the
Truthdig forum uses “Page Not Found” to selectively
restrict linguistic content——words deemed to be inappropriate for
use on the Truthdig forum.

If Truthdig forum is about digging for the truth, instead of digging
for the false, “Falsedig,” “Page Not Found,” as a device to
restrict linguistic content of posts made on the Truthdig forum
must end, and an explanation must be made by the Webmaster of
the Truthdig forum as to why this practice has been and continues
to be used on the Truthdig forum to limit linguistic content in an
Orwellian manner as indicated by George Orwell in “1984.”

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By ThomasG, July 24, 2011 at 11:04 am Link to this comment

The American Aristocracy and the American
Middle Class “EMERGED” FROM the American
Populace
; the American Populace is “primal”.

And, you, the PEOPLEas a “part” of the American
Populace are a “primal” part of American Society
that MUST BE REPRESENTED in the making and
enforcing of legislated law and order in the
United States that ARE the Class and Cultural
MAJORITY of democracy in the United States.

It is time for an END to “Selective Democracy”
that is NOT inclusive of the American Populace as
a “pr’i'm’al” class and cultural majority in the
United States.

“This IS what resistance looks like,”
PEOPLE.
  You do not have to be afraid.  You
do not have to be passive, like cows in the
field.

It is time for a change.  It is time for
“Inclusive Democracy” in the United
States.

Backlash between the Lite Right and the Hard
Right that is NOT INCLUSIVE of the American
Populace, the LEFT, is NOT an option.

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By ThomasG, July 24, 2011 at 10:34 am Link to this comment

“This is what resistance looks like,” PEOPLE. 
These posts by ardee and
Shenonymous are NOT examples of
dialogue on the basis of content,
people; these posts are examples of
“suppression of FREE SPEECH” in order to
evade dialogue on the basis of content.

At the very base of Lite-RIGHT and
Hard-RIGHT
, Democratic Party and
Republican Party dialogue
, this is what
political representation and party dialogue is all
about ——Representation of Lite-RIGHT and
Hard-RIGHT
, American Middle Class and
American Aristocracy, Democratic Party and
Repubican Party interests
to the
exclusion of the LEFT, the American
Populace, the 70% Majority Common Population
of the United States
, the exclusion of
the American Populace from being represented in
the Congress of the United States,
exclusion of the American Populace,
the 70% Majority Common Population of the
United States from participation in the making
and enforcing of legislated law and order that
represents the Class and Cultural interests of the
American Populace, the 70% Majority Common
Population of the United States.

Resistance to subjugation, oppression, and
tyranny of the FEW over the MANY by way of
domination and control of political process, by
institutionalized EXCLUSION of the LEFT, the
American Populace, the 70% Majority Common
Population of the United States from political
representation as a class and culture in the
United States and from the making and enforcing
of legislated law and order in the United States
that is inclusive of the American Populace
IS what I am talking about, “PEOPLE.”

The 70% Majority American Populace MUST
organize and force equal participation in the
making and enforcing of legislated law and order
of the American Populace as a 70%  majority
Common Population as a Class and Culture of the
United States, otherwise the other two classes
and cultures will continue to be
unaccountable for their actions to the 70%
Majority Common Population of the United States
as a Class and Culture
, and business of
political duopoly that EXCLUDES the American
Populace will continue as usual. 

It is time to wake up and refuse to continue to be
treated like cows in the field, that are
lesser children of democracy that are subject to
the paternalistic care of the American Aristocracy
and the American Middle Class, because the
American Populace are perceived as being
developmentally incompetent to handle their own
affairs;——It is time to challenge the fence of
the American Aristocracy and the American Middle
Class, the Republican Party and the
Democratic Party
, and their paternalistic
class and cultural representation of the 70%
Majority American Populace as CHILDREN.

It is time for the American Populace, as a class
and culture in the United States to emerge as a
class and culture and to en masse
demand and force political representation by an
institutionalized political party in the
United States that is SEATED in the Congress of
the United States to represent the American
Populace’s Class and Cultural interests in the
making and enforcing of legislated law and order
in the United States that represents the
interests of the American Populace as a Class
and Culture in the United States.

It is time for a change in the United States from
“Selective Democracy” for the American
Aristocracy and the American Middle Class
“Inclusive Democracy” that includes
the American Populace as a Class and
Culture in the making and enforcing of legislated
law and order in the Congress of the United
States.

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By ardee, July 18, 2011 at 2:33 pm Link to this comment

Gary Mont, July 15 at 9:28 am

Agree almost entirely, thanks. Talk around them as necessary, though I acknowledge that the crap they post makes ignoring them difficult. I havent read a Martha/Thomas post in some time now, turboscrolling as soon as the name(s) appear.

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, July 17, 2011 at 5:31 pm Link to this comment

Jorge X Rodriguez, July 16 at 8:12 pm - Jorge you could write to
the Webmaster, click on Contact Us below and you will get the
opportunity to write your complaint.  He will answer.

Report this

By Jorge X Rodriguez, July 16, 2011 at 8:12 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Perhaps the time has come for a little editorial intervention.

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ThomasG's avatar

By ThomasG, July 16, 2011 at 7:25 pm Link to this comment

Why do you suppose that anyone would make a claim that a
three word definition of propaganda —binary emotional
rhetoric
—would be too complicated and hard to understand
by anyone other than the **S*E*L*E*C*T****F*E*W*?

Do you suppose that the runaway Kochroaches on this thread
don’t want you, the American Populace, to have a simple definition
of propaganda that enables you to do propaganda analysis on the
sophism, dialectic, and propaganda of the Lite-Right and Hard
Right of both the Democratic and Republican Parties, so that you
can be prevented from developing sufficient awareness and start
agitating for a NEW Political Order in the United States that will
give the American Populace a Seat at the Table in the making and
enforcing of Legislated Law and Order?

I know that you are out there watching, “PEOPLE,” both here in
the USA and abroad—Make yourselves known, you don’t have to
be afraid, because whatever you fear is more likely to happen if
you do not act in unity as an American Populace, than if you do.

There is strength in numbers and the American Populace is a
70% Majority Common Population—That is 210 Million People,
“PEOPLE,”——You do not have to be afraid.

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By ThomasG, July 16, 2011 at 7:23 pm Link to this comment

Why do you suppose that anyone would make a claim that a
three word definition of propaganda —binary emotional
rhetoric
—would be too complicated and hard to understand
by anyone other than the ”*S*E*L*E*C*T****F*E*W*?

Do you suppose that the runaway Kochroaches on this thread
don’t want you, the American Populace, to have a simple definition
of propaganda that enables you to do propaganda analysis on the
sophism, dialectic, and propaganda of the Lite-Right and Hard
Right of both the Democratic and Republican Parties, so that you
can be prevented from developing sufficient awareness and start
agitating for a NEW Political Order in the United States that will
give the American Populace a Seat at the Table in the making and
enforcing of Legislated Law and Order?

I know that you are out there watching, “PEOPLE,” both here in
the USA and abroad—Make yourselves known, you don’t have to
be afraid, because whatever you fear is more likely to happen if
you do not act in unity as an American Populace, than if you do.

There is strength in numbers and the American Populace is a
70% Majority Common Population—That is 210 Million People,
“PEOPLE,”——You do not have to be afraid.

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By ThomasG, July 16, 2011 at 6:33 pm Link to this comment

It would appear that the Right-Wing Kochroaches and their minions
have all run for dark places like their “kindred,” cockroaches,
when the lights come on——Go figure, who would have thunk that
they would so easily cut and run from their false certainty.

“This Is What Resistance Looks Like” when you stand up to the
sophism, dialectic, and propaganda of oppressors, tyrants, and their
minions, like the Kochroaches that they are—they run like
cockroaches when the lights come on.

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By ThomasG, July 16, 2011 at 12:17 pm Link to this comment

Contentious people contend, that is what they do.  If others want
what contentious people have, all that is necessary for others to
do to get what is wanted away that contentious people have, is to
give contentious people something to contend over; they will
happily contend over the contentious issues they are baited with
in blissful ignorance, and never notice that what others wanted
from them was taken away.

Is anyone sufficiently unaware of this process enough to want
examples?

I have observed that the unaware, contentious, and ignorant are
always asking for examples of the self evident under pretense of
academic cover for childlike dependence on parental explanation.

Just ask, so I know who you are, and I will be glad to give some
examples of what issues of contention are.

I have also observed that when contentious people are given
examples that they inevitably ask for, that when they are asked to
provide examples in response to examples given with regard to
their own contentions, that they will not provide examples, and
that rather than provide examples, they will contend;——this is
what I expect from contentious people, because that is what
contentious people do—contend.

It would appear that for the most part, that all contentious people
are capable of is contention.

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By ThomasG, July 16, 2011 at 11:38 am Link to this comment

John Best, July 14 at 1:06 pm & John Best, July 15 at 4:01 am,

Page 1 of 2

I do not want to engage in contention over a better or
worse society, and whether the Left being paternalistically
represented in the Congress of the United States with backlash
representation that class and culturally excludes the American
Populace from CO-EQUAL PARTICIPATION has degrees of benefit
relative to good or bad standards of other nations, or some sort of
a moral standard of validity, and whether or not the paternalistic
standard of U.S. governance with regard to relegating the
American Populace to a position of children has merit; what I want
is for the whole Dumb Show to end, and for the American Populace
and duly elected representatives of the American Populace by way
of a duly institutionalized Political Party that represents the
American Populace, to take a CO-EQUAL Seat at the Table in the
Congress of the United States and participate CO-EQUALLY with
the American Aristocracy and the American Middle Class in the
making and enforcing of legislated law and order that is of benefit
to, and serves the purpose of the American Populace.

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By Night-Gaunt, July 15, 2011 at 3:32 pm Link to this comment

This is what you call overwhelming force. They generate tremendous amounts of material, most of it useless or repetitive, and saturate the area till everyone leaves in disgust. Then they just wait for it to get active again or not. So until they are blocked they will be menaces. Fool proof as long as they are not considered trolls.

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By ThomasG, July 15, 2011 at 1:45 pm Link to this comment

John Best, July 14 at 1:06 pm & John Best, July 15 at 4:01 am,

Page 2 of 2

Without the primal well spring of the American
Populace, both the American Aristocracy and the
American Middle Class want to separate, and
have separated from the primal source of their
origin, the American Populace, for their own
greedy self interest, neither can survive as a
class and culture in the absence of the well
spring of the American Populace as the primal
source of their existence, yet they still want to be
better and have advantage over the primal
source of their origin, the American Populace;
this, I say, is a proof of American Aristocracy and
American Middle Class unsuitability for
leadership
and a proof that leadership
will always be inferior that is not inclusive of the
American Populace as a Primal Source of society
and of class and culture
that has been
excluded from participation in the making and
enforcing of legislated law and order in the
Congress of the United States of America.

Talking American Aristocracy and American Middle
Class drivel about “Social Contracts” will not
address the class and cultural divide and
inequities that exist for the American Populace in
the making and enforcing of legislated law and
order in the Congress of the United States, and
claims to the effect that such divisions and
inequities can be addressed by “Social Contracts”
is nothing more than self serving political drivel
that is meant for self serving benefit, rather than
ingenuous attention to the social inequities that
the American Populace are subjected to by the
American Aristocracy and the American Middle
Class with regard to their societal and class and
cultural strangle hold of domination over the
American Populace through their self serving
control of the making and enforcing of legislated
law and order that excludes the American
Populace, and makes the American Populace
subject to the making and enforcing of legislated
law and order of the American Aristocracy and
the American Middle Class in a paternalistic
parent/child relationship that is unacceptable to
the American Populace as the primal well spring
upon which both the American Aristocracy and
American Middle Class are dependent.

The course in which Liberals ought to be
committed is self determination for the American
Populace, the 70% Majority Common
Population of the United States, with regard to
CO-EQUAL participation in the Congress of the
United States with regard to the making and
enforcing of legislated law and order that serves
the best interests of the American Populace of
the United States
, rather than to continue to
be led by the American Aristocracy and American
Middle Class with sophism, dialectic, and
propaganda to serve the greedy self interests of
the American Aristocracy and the American Middle
Class ——This is the course that Liberals
ought to take!!!!  The course that Liberals ought
to take is to REJECT paternalistic leadership of
the American Populace by the American
Aristocracy and the American Middle Class, and
for the American Populace to represent itself as a
CO-EQUAL PARTNER together with the American
Aristocracy and the American Middle Class in the
Congress of the United States with sovereign
rights of self determination to make its own
legislated law and order and to administer,
control, and benefit for its own American
Populace
along side the American
Aristocracy and the American Middle Class that
follows the same course as competing classes
and cultures in competition with the American
Populace.

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By Gary Mont, July 15, 2011 at 9:28 am Link to this comment

Ardee: How long do you think they would continue to rant and rave if there was never a single response to such?

Its hard to say. As long as nobody posts anything that is noteworthy, they tend to remain silent but vigilant.

As soon as an interesting discussion begins to form, MarthaThomas starts a new flood of repetitious bafflegab posts, in order to derail that discussion and re-establish their chosen topics as the subject under discussion.

The newest twist in this process seems to be a repeated demand that their pet topic be perceived by all, as the ONLY subject of discussion in this forum and that all other topics not related to sophistry, dialectic and propaganda be considered as mere distractions designed to prevent their magic Hegelian formulae from being osmotically absorbed by the masses they believe to be watching this forum.

Its the idea that this forum is being read by many, many people that draws them to it I think, although, why they believe this is not yet understood.

Regardless, I fully agree with you. They should be universally ignored, as even this post, being about them, will stimulate their pleasure centers.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, July 15, 2011 at 4:01 am Link to this comment

So much for my good faith effort in giving the new identity a chance.  You blew it Thomas.

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By ardee, July 15, 2011 at 2:41 am Link to this comment

Gary Mont, July 14 at 4:21 pm

First, Bravo!

Second, far better, I think, to ignore these obviously disturbed clowns than to advocate for the curtailing of free speech. How long do you think they would continue to rant and rave if there was never a single response to such?

Further, their real agenda, as is that of the GRYM’s and his ilk who infest this forum, is to stifle discussion about real and important topics.

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By Leefeller, July 14, 2011 at 10:11 pm Link to this comment

This thread can be construed to have been hijacked by the Successful Saturation of Two Trolls!

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By Night-Gaunt, July 14, 2011 at 6:23 pm Link to this comment

Inconsistency. Except for the clone. Boring and distressing and distracting.

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ThomasG's avatar

By ThomasG, July 14, 2011 at 5:26 pm Link to this comment

“I believe most people don’t know they are being
duped.  .....  Focusing on how to inform the ignorant public
that they are being propagandized in simple terms they
can understand is the course in which liberals ought to be
committed.  This is my agenda ....”
—By Shenonymous, July
1 at 9:07 am

We cannot allow ourselves to be distracted from the “simple
terms” that are “the course in which Liberals ought to be
committed.”

Now that the distraction of personal abuse is at an end, by those
who would use the Webmaster to distract dialogue away from
sophism, dialectic, propaganda, and the “simple terms” that are
“the course in which Liberals ought to be committed.”——We need
to get back to what those, so called “simple terms” are “in which
Liberals ought to be committed.”

I want to know what those “simple terms” are that are “the
course in which Liberals ought to be committed.”  I am a Liberal
and if I ought to be committed to “simple terms,” I want to know
what those “simple terms” are.

All who have supported the so called, “simple terms” that are “the
course in which Liberals ought to be committed” are asked to post
those terms so that all can have the certainty of knowing what
those “simple terms” are that are “the course in which Liberals
ought to be committed.”

If the so called “simple terms” are not posted by the originator
and advocates of those “simple terms,” a decision will have to be
made as to why, perhaps the “simple terms” are imaginary
amorphous nonsense meant as a distraction, and if that is the
case, perhaps the whole context of the dialogue with all the
posters engaged in the dialogue concerning the so called “simple
terms” was imaginary amorphous nonsense;——If otherwise,
please provide the “simple terms,” now that the distraction of
abusive behavior is at an end.

The following from the AlterNet forum by Dr. Cynthia Boaz are 14
additional examples of binary emotional rhetoric that IS
propaganda:

http://www.alternet.org/news/151497/14_propaganda_techniques_fox_"news"_uses_to_brainwash_americans/

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By Cliff Carson, July 14, 2011 at 4:54 pm Link to this comment

John Best

It was good conversing with you, but I’ve had it.

There are some good people on here but this crap from MarthaA and the other one are just too much for me.

They are the most infantile, irritating, people I have ever run into.  I’ll bet more than half the words in this thread are about their BS which has nothing to do with the original article which was was about resistance.

I’m tired of hearing it.

I think I’m out of here to find a site that is not dominated by such nonsense.

I’ll find some other site.

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MarthaA's avatar

By MarthaA, July 14, 2011 at 4:42 pm Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt, July 14 at 2:20 pm,

You are the first person I have ever reported to the Webmaster on
any blog in my entire life, and I did so, not just because of your
personally abusive behavior in your post, but also because YOU
sided with those who were being personally abusive of me.  Those
who use the tactic of reporting others to the Webmaster and
those who support others who use this tactic must get used to
what goes around coming back around.

I did not send reporting personally abusive behavior around to the
Webmaster, but because I did not start it, that does not mean
that I will allow it to be used against me as a tactic without
sending it back around to those who both use and support its use
by others.  It is best to respond to content of posts and not be
personally abusive of those who make the posts.

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By MarthaA, July 14, 2011 at 4:23 pm Link to this comment

Cliff Carson, July 14 at 2:47 pm,

It is not up to me to define how YOUR so called “simple terms” are
or are not anything, it is up to “you people” to make your own
case;———So, make it if you can.

And, if you can’t make your own case, your lack of being able to do
so will be the proof that your so called “simple terms” that are
supposedly more simple than “binary emotional rhetoric” were and
are amorphous nonsense.

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By Gary Mont, July 14, 2011 at 4:21 pm Link to this comment

To Thomas/Martha:

======================
An effort has been made on Truthdig’s thread, “This is What Resistance Looks Like” to distract the dialogue from sophism, dialectic, and propaganda…
======================

Newsflash kiddies!!
===================

The dialogue concerning the article “This is What Resistance Looks Like” is not and was not a thread about Hegelian Mathmatica, Unity of Balance, Sublation, or Binary Emotional Rhetoric.

You have attempted since your first post to distract all other posters from all other topics and points of view concerning Resistance, in order to establish this discussion area as your personal forum, for your personal pet theories based on Hegel. Your own self-serving claim above shows this to be your true intentions.

You have refused to act like adults and instead, post numerous huge, repititious treatises, based on something you have been unable to explain or expand upon for months, and when called to the carpet for your lack of clear and concise response to all inquiries, you perform what amounts to having a tantrum by insulting the posters and complaining to the webmasters of persecution.

Well, I think it might be time for all the posters here who you have annoyed and insulted, (and in all the other forums on TruthDig you two inhabit), to take a page from MarthaThomas’s own book of Anti-Bloggers’ Dirty Tricks…

Methinks we should all begin copying the tons of MarthaThnomas’s past pointless insulting posts from the archives, into dated packets, and sending them along with our own complaints, to the webmasters, pointing out that these two immature repeat offenders are trying to prevent any topic other than their pet theory from being discussed, by flooding the forum with reams of repetitious, insulting and basically pointless postings whenever anyone posts anything not about their pet theory. A simple reading of the posts in this forum will corroborate this complaint beyond any doubt.

As much as I hate to bother the webmaster and those who operate this site, it does seem to be the only way to make these two perrenial children understand that they are not royalty or special in any way, and may not take over this forum, or any other, exclusively for their own pet theories.

Once the Webmaster has seen and read the enormous collection of basically identical and idiotic posts by MarthaThomas, I’m certain no further effort will need to be expended by posters here (and in the other forums) in defending themselves against the numerous insults and outright lies posted by these two.

However, the standard offer remains open.

Act your age, explain your theories, stop using repetitive esoteric insider verbiage and join the forum as members, rather than as wannabe moderators, or lofty lords, and everyone can have a fresh start and maybe learn something.

Otherwise, may I suggest that the two of you pool your resources, open a website and create a blog where you can expound on Hegel, Sublation, Binary Emotional Rhetoric, X=X Unity of Balance and anything else that floats your boat, to your heart’s content.

This post was approved by Gary Mont

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By ThomasG, July 14, 2011 at 3:46 pm Link to this comment

John Best, July 14 at 1:06 pm,

“So, we tried this ‘Democracy thing’.  Perhaps the conclusion of the experiment is ‘The Common People’ obviously can’t handle it.  Look at their ‘representatives’!

So what is your proposal?  If you want it considered, please have the courtesy of compendiousness. —John Best, July 14 at 1:06 pm

There is no balance to a Pyramid Scheme and Privatized Capitalism
is a Pyramid Scheme that is cyclically brought back to life by those
at the base of the pyramid for the benefit of those at the top of
the pyramid.

Before I get involved in examples of anything, examples need to
be provided of the so called “simple terms” that are “the course in
which Liberals ought to be committed.” ——that were promised to
MarthaA.

Until those examples are provided, I do not have confidence that
you are in any way serious in intent and ingenuous in your
dialogue.

With regard to the 70% Majority Common Population of the United
States, the American Populace; they are NOT represented by a
political party in the United States and they are NOT represented
in the making and enforcing of legislated law and order in the
United States.

How can you or anyone else determine that the 70% Majority
Common Population of the United States, the American Populace,
cannot represent themselves both politically and in governance
until they have their own Political Party and Division of Legislative
Control in the Congress of the United States that is co-equal with
the Senate that represents the American Aristocracy and the
House of Representatives that represents the American Middle
Class?

I do not think that it would be possible for the American Populace
to do worse with a Political Party and a Division of the Legislature
in Congress empowered to make and enforce legislated law and
order, than the American Aristocracy in the Senate and the
American Middle Class in the House of Representatives.

To have meaningful governance in the United States with regard
to the making and enforcing of legislated law and order, <b>all
three class and cultural divisions of American Society must be
represented in the making and enforcing of legislated law and
order.

The American Aristocracy are represented by the Republican Party
as an institutionalized form of political representation and by the
Senate as a Division of Congress.

The American Middle Class are represented by the Democratic
Party as an institutionalized form of political representation and by
the House of Representatives as a Division of Congress.

The American Populace is a 70% Majority Common Population of
the United States, and the American Populace is NOT represented
at all by a political party institutionalized or otherwise and is NOT
represented at all by a Division of Congress———Is this what we
laughingly call democracy in the United States ..... Greek
Democracy, the democracy of the Helots?

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By Cliff Carson, July 14, 2011 at 2:47 pm Link to this comment

MarthaA

I’ll give you an even simpler task.

Explain to all of us why Propaganda is not spin.

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MarthaA's avatar

By MarthaA, July 14, 2011 at 2:30 pm Link to this comment

Cliff Carson, July 14 at 1:32 pm,

Limit yourself to the so called “simple terms” that are more simple
than “binary emotional rhetoric” as a definition of propaganda.

If your claim is that “spin” is a definition of propaganda, then give
an example of how the word “spin” defines the elements that
constitute the binary, emotional, and rhetorical elements of
propaganda that is propaganda, so far you haven’t.

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Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, July 14, 2011 at 2:20 pm Link to this comment

Was what I said wrong or just real? I have done nothing abusive in comparison to you. You know who you are. And you know what you have done. Your very writing is an abuse. I think I will start reporting you too. I haven’t before but since you started it, I’ve got the better position.

The ‘spin’ originally the word was to the ‘english’ on a ball or rotation imparted in order to favor its motion in a direction guided by the one who struck it. Rather like the spin put on the idea of anthropogenic climate change that it is a myth despite the scientific verified evidence to the contrary. About 45% believe that ACC is a ‘myth’ at the last count I recall. So that is the propaganda mill is much louder than that which promotes truth and accuracy. A sad state of affairs that isn’t new.

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MarthaA's avatar

By MarthaA, July 14, 2011 at 2:02 pm Link to this comment

By Night-Gaunt, July 14 at 12:43 pm,

Your post has been reported as personally abusive behavior.  Please
respond to content of my post only without engaging in personally
abusive behavior.

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ThomasG's avatar

By ThomasG, July 14, 2011 at 1:47 pm Link to this comment

An effort has been made on Truthdig’s thread, “This is What Resistance Looks Like” to distract the dialogue from sophism, dialectic, and propaganda; much to my dismay, the Webmaster has responded to complaints made for this same purpose.

“This is What Resistance Looks Like” has been coopted by those who would distract dialogue from sophism, dialectic and propaganda, and simple definition of propaganda defined as “binary emotional rhetoric” to enable a three word standard for propaganda analysis by the masses.

For resistance to be meaningful resistance, resistance cannot be easily distracted by those who have ulterior purpose and motive for distracting dialogue.

In the past, distraction from content has been through personally abusive behavior of those who post, rather than addressing the content of the post. 

I will leave it to the Webmaster to deal with personally abusive behavior in future posts, as a result of MarthaA being reprimanded for making response to personally abusive posts by other posters, both individually and collectively, and being reprimanded for doing so.

For those who would be abusive of either myself or MarthaA in a Truthdig post, the solution has to be “Report this,” so that the Webmaster can deal with the problem in the initial phase, because neither one of us want to be accused of what others have initiated and both of us want to know whether or not the Webmaster truly represents Truthdig or Falsedig.  We both support Truthdig and neither of us support Falsedig.

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By Cliff Carson, July 14, 2011 at 1:32 pm Link to this comment

MarthaA,  I offer this from Wikipedia, “The term propaganda can be defined as the ability to produce and spread fertile messages that, once sown, will germinate in large human cultures.”  However, in the 20th century, a “new” propaganda emerged, which revolved around political organizations and their need to communicate messages that would “sway relevant groups of people in order to accommodate their agendas”.  Notice MarthaA, propaganda can be neutral, it is not necessarily bad.  As are so many things, the user determines how something is perceived.  You may have noticed that.

My earlier message to you ( after you challenged me to define propaganda in simple terms ) was the simplest definition of propaganda in existence and also the most accurate.

“Propaganda = spin”.

You see MarthaA, you want to make a simple thing such as the definition of propaganda into something mystic, intellectual , dark, foreboding, unusual, a concept, an orthodoxy of the highest order,  all it would seem to me, so that you might leave the illusion that you are some genius or other thing to be wondered about and fearful of.

Propaganda, MarthaA , is spin, nothing more and nothing less.  Some people call it a “Little White Lie” others get more sinister, such as those who condemned Leni Riefenstahl as a bad person for her production “Triumph of the Will” that glorified the Nazi Party.  What those condemners did was trash her for a superbly great film she produced, years ahead of its time, simply because the Nazi Party turned out to be immoral.  At the time of the filming the beleaguered German people were simply misled with the Nazi spin as was, I’ll wager, Ms. Riefenstahl also.

What is to be made of the Republican spin about Social Security and Medicare?  I have watched Triumph of the Will, and if you have, you will have to admit that the theme of that film was that the German People could pull themselves up by their bootstraps and become a Great Nation if they were moral and worked together.  You will also have to admit that there was not a show of military might whatsoever in that film,  as many would have you believe, in fact, as I recall,  the marchers in that film carried tools such as shovels, and hoes, and other gardening effects.  And the theme was “With God’s will” and all that.

Now MarthaA , Spin is nothing other than a deviation away from the truth.  The truth MarthaA, is unchangeable forever.  Spin is like a piece of dough, it can be shaped and plied into someone’s wish or other, but one thing is certain -  it never is the truth.

Manifest Destiny, that you mentioned a time or two, was a “Belief” that was spun into a phrase (from Wikipedia)  “which invoked the idea of divine sanction for the territorial expansion of the United States. It first appeared in print in 1845, in the July-August issue of the United States Magazine and Democratic Review. The anonymous author, thought to be its editor John L. O’Sullivan, proclaimed “our manifest destiny is to overspread the continent allotted by Providence for the free development of our multiplying millions.”

That same theme is being used today to “Spin” American Empire.  MarthaA, in simpler words than you might use, this idea was spun into a “Right” of American Exceptionalism,  another way of saying “An American Life is worth more than a Non-American life” or possible “A Christian is more worthy than a Muslim believer” and possibly back in the ages of the Crusades, this was a propaganda to incite hatred against people of the Middle East - those people not like us.  I wonder if that propaganda is being used today?

I’m sure I could go on for hours.  One thing I do ask you - don’t answer me if all you can conger up is binary BS.  I did this so you would get out of your “Playback Loop” and maybe get on course for polite conversation.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, July 14, 2011 at 1:17 pm Link to this comment

The riddle is too oblique for me.
Night Gaunt, you seem to work for the common good.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, July 14, 2011 at 1:06 pm Link to this comment

I’m in a bit of a melancholy this afternoon regarding our chances of becoming any sort of cooperative society of People, so consider this as a post from well, perhaps a Devils advocate sort of snarky alter-ego.  I always wanted to use the word ‘snarky’. 

Suppose you’re right ThomasG…...the 70% are ‘Governed’, more or less.

But there are areas of freedom.  You can eat all the food you want.  You can waste all the fuel you can buy.  People are fairly free to dress like absolute slobs, and be generally vulgar.  People are free to accumulate all the wealth they want and piss it away on all manner of idiocy.  They can have all the babies they want. 

But some ‘made it’, over a generation or two perhaps, to the true American Aristocracy level, or close enough.  That so many ‘failed’, ‘gave up’, .....even with representative government,  given how many of them squander their political freedoms, perhaps they should consider themselves lucky to have what they do. 

So, we tried this ‘Democracy thing’.  Perhaps the conclusion of the experiment is ‘The Common People’ obviously can’t handle it.  Look at their ‘representatives’!

So what is your proposal?  If you want it considered, please have the courtesy of compendiousness.

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Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, July 14, 2011 at 12:43 pm Link to this comment

Right-Wing takeover is done through linguistics of sophism, dialectic and propaganda. MarthaA/ThomasG

Very true and both of your do just that. All the time. In fact every time you write here or anywhere that I have seen. Thank you for explicating it in a clear and unequivocal fashion. Excellent, well done!

That’s alright John Best I have been guilty of that too. Apology accepted.

It’s not that I wouldn’t be honored (& paid) by someone like Shenonymous it’s just that I don’t need to work for anyone to hold my positions & don’t work for anyone at all. If you can understand that nuance there is till hope for your benighted brains. I’m taking no bets on long shots.

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ThomasG's avatar

By ThomasG, July 14, 2011 at 12:02 pm Link to this comment

Page 2 of 2

“We the People” is a term that applies to the American Aristocracy and their minions of the American Middle Class that excludes the 70% Majority Common Population, the American Populace of the United States as the mean, vile and vulgar common population that must be suppressed and controlled at all cost, for the benefit of “We the People,” the American Aristocracy and their minions of the American Middle Class.

Democracy with life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness with freedom and justice for all is for “We The People” at the expense of “all of those other people,” the mean, vile, and vulgar, the 70% Majority Common Population of the United States, the American Populace.

U.S. democracy is democracy for “us,” for “We the People” NOT for all of you other people; this is the U.S. democracy that I have lived in for the 66 years of my life, non-inclusive democracy for “We the People” that excludes me from membership by socio-economic discrimination of legislated law and order that suppresses me along with the rest of the 70% Majority American Populace for the benefit of the “Se*le*ct* Fe*w,” “We the People,” the American Aristocracy and their minions, the American Middle Class at the expense of the many, the 70% Majority Common Population of the United States, the American Populace.

My life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness with freedom and justice for all is that of “the freedom of the field,” the freedom of livestock to roam around in the field of their owner until their owner sees fit to remove them from the field and use them as commodities to serve his personal benefit and purpose, exclusive and apart from the freedom of the livestock in the field; this is my America.

This is my America that has given me “the freedom of the field” as American democracy with life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness with freedom and justice for all for the 66 years of my life, that has left me fearful for my safety when I am out of the field where I am allowed to be by legislated law and order;——This is what resistance for me, as a member of the American Populace, looks like in the United States.

What is your freedom in the United States? Do you have the legislated law and order of freedom that is freedom of “We the People” as something other than a trope?——Or, do you have the freedom of legislated law and order that is “the freedom of cows in the field?” Think about it.

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By ThomasG, July 14, 2011 at 11:56 am Link to this comment

Page 1 of 2

This is what resistance looks like:  My life experience for 66 years
has been that I have more to fear from law enforcement than I
have to fear from criminal activity and terrorists.

For the most part criminal activity is individual, unorganized activity
and does not pose much of a risk, but law enforcement is
organized criminal activity that functions and acts under cover and
protection of legislated law and order of the few, used to
suppress and control the many, that cannot be defended against
by the common population, in the same manner that individual
unorganized criminal activity can.

https://mail.google.com/mail/?hl=en&shva=1&labs=0#label/BrasscheckTV/1311356882283e39

http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/4332.html

If a citizen trys to defend himself/herself against criminal law
enforcement of criminally legislated law and order, the full force
and power of all levels of governance and all levels of law
enforcement will be brought to bear against the citizen, and if the
citizen is not summarily killed at the outset, as is in the above link,
the citizen will go through a process of accusation, condemnation,
and denunciation of a Show Trial that pronounces a death
sentence in one form or another.

I fear for my life and freedom every time I come into contact with
law enforcement, and this has been the state of my existence for
the 66 years of my lifetime, because the legislated law and order
that law enforcement represents does not represent my class and
culture, and my class and culture neither had, have, has nor will
have any part in making that same legislated law and order.

This is the state of my life and has been the state of my life for the
66 years of my life in the so called best country in the world with
the greatest degree of freedom in the world for “We the
People.”

I have never, during the term of my 66 years experienced any
indication that “We the people” was inclusive of the 70%
Majority Common Population of the United States, the American
Populace, and inclusive of me as a part of the American Populace
of the United States.

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ThomasG's avatar

By ThomasG, July 14, 2011 at 11:50 am Link to this comment

Page 2 of 2

“We the People” is a term that applies
to the American Aristocracy and their minions of
the American Middle Class that excludes the 70%
Majority Common Population, the American
Populace of the United States as the mean, vile
and vulgar common population that must be
suppressed and controlled at all cost, for the
benefit of “We the People,” the
American Aristocracy and their minions of the
American Middle Class.

Democracy with life, liberty, and the pursuit of
happiness with freedom and justice for all is for
“We The People” at the expense of “all of
those other people,”
the mean, vile, and
vulgar, the 70% Majority Common Population
of the United States, the American Populace.

U.S. democracy is democracy for “us,” for “We the
People” NOT for all of you other people; this is
the U.S. democracy that I have lived in for the 66
years of my life, non-inclusive democracy for “We
the People” that excludes me from membership
by socio-economic discrimination of legislated law
and order that suppresses me along with the
rest of the 70% Majority American Populace for
the benefit of the “Se*le*ct* Fe*w,”
“We the People,” the American Aristocracy
and their minions, the American Middle Class at
the expense of the many, the 70% Majority
Common Population of the United States, the
American Populace.

My life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness with
freedom and justice for all is that of “the freedom
of the field,” the freedom of livestock to roam
around in the field of their owner until their
owner sees fit to remove them from the field and
use them as commodities to serve his personal
benefit and purpose, exclusive and apart from
the freedom of the livestock in the field; this is my
America.

This is my America that has given me “the
freedom of the field” as American democracy with
life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness with
freedom and justice for all for the 66 years of my
life, that has left me fearful for my safety when I
am out of the field where I am allowed to be by
legislated law and order;——This is what
resistance for me, as a member of the American
Populace, looks like in the United States.

What is your freedom in the United States? Do
you have the legislated law and order of freedom
that is freedom of “We the People” as
something other than a trope?——Or, do you
have the freedom of legislated law and order
that is “the freedom of cows in the
field?”
Think about it.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, July 14, 2011 at 9:39 am Link to this comment

Oh rats,  Night Gaunt, please accept my apology.  I re-read your post, and I am embarrassed to offer my excuse for the mis-read.

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MarthaA's avatar

By MarthaA, July 14, 2011 at 8:54 am Link to this comment

Truthdig Webmaster:

[The following post is an abusive frame.]

“By Gary Mont, July 14 at 3:00 am
 
Regarding ThomasM via MarthaA,

I realize that everyone wants to scold these two obviously spoiled children and try and make them realize that they are to blame for the shit they find themselves in all the time, but really folks, its been tried, and its simply a waste of time and energy and can get you in deep doodoo with the proprietor, just associating with them.  

[The following post is an abusive frame.]

“By Anarcissie, July 14 at 5:26 am

  Gary Mont, July 14 at 3:00 am:

  Regarding ThomasM via MarthaA,

  I realize that everyone wants to scold these two obviously spoiled children….” 

 

[The following post is an abusive frame.]

By ardee, July 14 at 2:46 am

MarthaA, July 14 at 1:30 am

I would remind Martha/Thomas of the times h/she has inferred
that shooting a poster in disagreement with your garbled garbage
is the preferred solution. I would further remind you that,
immediately upon your arrival here, in your guise as Thomas, you noted that you had “closed down” several liberal forums that dared disagree with you.

I state openly that I am not in favor of banning anyone excepting in the case of continuing inappropriate language or serious disruptions. I, myself, almost never read your efforts any more, finding them so much nonsense in fact. But that is both my opinion and my choice.

I doubt that this is the first time you have been banned or threatened with such, and I note that I did not read all “nine pages” of this paean to self centered indifference to your own words and their unwholesome affect on dialogue and debate.

Back to turbo scrolling…..

 

[The following post is an abusive frame.]

</i>“By John Best, July 14 at 6:21 am

But intentionally distracting TD’ers to go dig potatoes over in the rose garden should be be discouraged.  If a kid is a bit unruly, you end him to the garden bench for a time out.  If he’s nasty and intent on destroying your crop, out the gate with him.” </i>


Here we go again with regard to gang inspired abusive behavior
on the Truthdig forum that is directed at me as a personal attack,
behavior that the offending posters will single me out for and
complain bitterly about if I respond.

Will you, as Webmaster, control this personally abusive behavior,
intentionally directed as personal abusive frames of attack to
denigrate and personally demean me?——or will you allow this
behavior to continue until I respond and then single me out for
reprimand?

I have much to talk about and would very much like to be able to
say what I have to say, in the way that I want to say it, without
bing constantly singled out by other posters and attacked
personally for what I have to say, rather than to deal with the
content of what I have said—What say you, Webmaster? —Will
you support my right to FREE SPEECH in the absence of personally
abusive behavior?——OR NOT?

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, July 14, 2011 at 8:06 am Link to this comment

John Best - I do not think Night-Gaunt’s reference to “she” as a troll
with respect to Shenonymous but rather was to the ‘she’ of MarthaA.
Using the pronoun ‘she’ could be confusing, even hazardous, which
is why I use my full blog name.  N-G and I have interacted for years
and have never to the best of my recollection either had any disagreement of any scale or any rancor between us.  There has
always been mutual personal regard.  Of course N-G will speak for himself but this is how my memory serves it.

The problem highlighted about ALEC is serious and needs to be given
much consideration and deliberate action taken at once against this
socially deadly and vicious enterprise, in every single way they are
attacking Americans, one by one and issue by issue, with not even one
piece of punctuation missed.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, July 14, 2011 at 6:21 am Link to this comment

Night Gaunt,  Though I suppose one mans porridge is another’s poison, but I’m surprised you’d have any problem with Shenonymouses posts.  They’re lengthy, but the sort of relevant background and research you’d expect to get from an analyst at MI6.  Lengthy, perhaps yes, unless you’re following it closely, which isn;t easy sometimes, but then it’s captivating and precisely on-point. 

I think, (and how ironic this sentence starts with ‘I think’) so much of what we read is opinion without background, that we (I at least) sometimes have to work a bit (quite a bit in my case) harder to read through some of the Shenonymous material, and in fact, it often leads to additional research in order to fully grasp.  But damn, to imply any sort of trollishness?  You’re way, way off base there.  In fact, I’ve seen many cases in my short time on TD where a really disruptive person has been simply dispatched by the contextually correct and well researched postings of Shenonymous. 

As fot ITW….I’ll have to re-read him, I don’t see a problem, and have a positive ‘general recollection’, as I do of many posters, including Night Gaunt.  Perhaps you’ll provide an example of an ITW disruption? 

Digging for truth is like potatoes, you have to get around the plant and get under the potato.  Perfectly ‘on-point’ gripes about the precise center of the article just ruins potatoes.  You cut some, and don;t get as many.  But intentionally distracting TD’ers to go dig potatoes over in the rose garden should be be discouraged.  If a kid is a bit unruly, you end him to the garden bench for a time out.  If he’s nasty and intent on destroying your crop, out the gate with him.

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Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, July 14, 2011 at 5:26 am Link to this comment

Gary Mont, July 14 at 3:00 am:

Regarding ThomasM via MarthaA,

I realize that everyone wants to scold these two obviously spoiled children….

I don’t, and neither do most of the people who post messages on Truthdig.  Those who carry on with them are doing what they like.

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Gary Mont's avatar

By Gary Mont, July 14, 2011 at 3:00 am Link to this comment

Regarding ThomasM via MarthaA,

I realize that everyone wants to scold these two obviously spoiled children and try and make them realize that they are to blame for the shit they find themselves in all the time, but really folks, its been tried, and its simply a waste of time and energy and can get you in deep doodoo with the proprietor, just associating with them.

Inherit The Wind & Shenonymous got slapped with a reprimand by association.

Thomas and Martha should simply be ignored, until such time as they grow up and start acting like adults.

Until then, let them hang themselves, by themselves.

Please don’t feed the trolls.

==============

Note: The article they posted a link to is a very interesting article and worth a looksee.

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By ardee, July 14, 2011 at 2:46 am Link to this comment

MarthaA, July 14 at 1:30 am

I would remind Martha/Thomas of the times h/she has inferred that shooting a poster in disagreement with your garbled garbage is the preferred solution. I would further remind you that, immediately upon your arrival here, in your guise as Thomas, you noted that you had “closed down” several liberal forums that dared disagree with you.

I state openly that I am not in favor of banning anyone excepting in the case of continuing inappropriate language or serious disruptions. I, myself, almost never read your efforts any more, finding them so much nonsense in fact. But that is both my opinion and my choice.

I doubt that this is the first time you have been banned or threatened with such, and I note that I did not read all “nine pages” of this paean to self centered indifference to your own words and their unwholesome affect on dialogue and debate.

Back to turbo scrolling…..

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MarthaA's avatar

By MarthaA, July 14, 2011 at 1:30 am Link to this comment

Truthdig Webmaster:

ALEC Exposed: A Nationwide
Blueprint for the Rightwing Takeover

by John Nichols

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2011/07/13-8

Through ALEC, Global Corporations Are Scheming to Rewrite
YOUR Rights and Boost THEIR Revenue

http://www.alecexposed.org/wiki/ALEC_Exposed

Right-Wing takeover is done through linguistics of sophism, dialectic and propaganda.

I am concerned that the Truthdig forum is
applying a double standard to my dialogue on
the Truthdig forum by subjecting me, as an
individual, to being removed from the Truthdig
forum for a rules violation for equivalent
behavior that is practiced against me by a gang
of what it appears to be more favored Truthdig
posters;———because I have chosen to talk
about linguistics of sophism, dialectic, and
propaganda, and have openly advocated that all,
including the American Populace, be equally
informed with regard to linguistics of sophism,
dialectic, and propaganda.

If Truthdig forum wishes to discourage dialogue
about linguistics of sophism, dialectic, and
propaganda that will enable the American
Populace to do propaganda analysis on an equal
footing with the American Aristocracy and the
American Middle Class, by finding a convenient
excuse to silence my dialogue, that is the
Truthdig forum’s prerogative to do, because
Truthdig controls the forum. ——— However, if I
am silenced by a convenient excuse, it will
demonstrate that Truthdig is not digging for the
truth, but instead is digging to cover up the truth,
and that FREE SPEECH is first out in the cover up,
because the FREE SPEECH that I choose to
exercise is about linguistics of sophism, dialectic,
and propaganda, and enabling the masses to
employ propaganda analysis on a level
equivalent to the American Aristocracy and the
American Middle Class.

Are we together digging for the truth on Truthdig
forum, or is Truthdig forum digging to cover up
truth about the linguistics of sophism, dialectic,
and propaganda by defenestrating my dialogue
about the linguistics of sophism, dialectic and
propaganda?

The issue at the heart of all of the fuss
concerning behavioral claims that singularly
pertain to me, and are not applied to the gang of
Truthdig posters who have berated me for more
than I have ever berated them as a single
individual, is addressed by me in my response to
Night Gaunt’s 7/3/11 at 3:36pm post as follows
that concerns “the course which Liberals ought to
be committed,” a false course or a true course,
and which course Truthdig will dig;—for the truth
or for the false:

“By MarthaA, July 4 at 7:37 am

Night-Gaunt, July 3 at 3:36 pm,

If what Shenonymous said were “simple terms,”
were, in fact, “simple terms,” those “simple
terms” should be “simple” for “you people” to trot
out, so that everyone can have a look at them and know the
certainty of the “simplicity” of “the course which
Liberals ought to be committed.” in the “simple terms”
that Shenonymous makes reference to, and that YOU and
the rest of Shenonymous’ minions support.

What say you?  Will YOU as Shenonymous’ minion or any
other of Shenonymous’ minions trot out the “simple
terms” proposed by Shenonymous that are “the
course which Liberals ought to be committed.”?

What is all of the fuss about trotting out “simple terms”
that are “the course which Liberals ought to be committed.”?

Surely YOU, Night-Gaunt, or one of
Shenonymous’ other minions can trot out
Shenonymous’ “simple terms” for her, so that we can
move on, on this Truthdig thread, but until YOU do so, “This is
What Resistance Looks Like” to the blatant use of
propaganda by Shenonymous and “you people”
as Shenonymous’ minions.”

The real question is one of Truthdig or Falsedig
with regard to accusations made against me on
the Truthdig forum—Silencing me is Falsedig.

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Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, July 13, 2011 at 5:54 pm Link to this comment

How bothersome. It is only MarthaA that is the disruptive influence here not Inherit The Wind & Shenonymous. Sounds like the Web Master has no idea what’s gong on here. They need more moderators.

We strive for clarity, she strives to obfuscate and dissemble like any Troll would. Whether she means it or not the outcome is yet the same. The Accidental Troll anyone?

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, July 13, 2011 at 5:34 am Link to this comment

Dear Webmaster,

On another topic…...
‘Cliff Carson’ and ‘Shenonymous’, ‘Inheret The Wind’,  and many others are first rate ‘posters’.  They are a very positive influence here at TD.  Good writers all, and obviously well intentioned.

MarthA?  Disruptive, disrespectful and ill-mannered to say the very least.  An example can be found in the Chris Hedges article “What Resistance Look Like” at July 12 at 10:25 pm. If you scroll down that page, you’ll see massive semi-intelligible, repetitive posts.  At first glance, they may seem legitimate, but, without suffering through them in detail, one does not come to appreciate the pain of being continually clubbed by them.  I thank you for reminding him/her of the TOS.

Regards,
John Best

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MarthaA's avatar

By MarthaA, July 12, 2011 at 10:25 pm Link to this comment

ATTENTION:  Truthdig Webmaster:

CORRECT TITLE:
“By MarthaA, July 10 at 10:37 am Link to this comment

Cliff Carson, July 7 at 7:36 pm

binary:    Consisting of two (2).

emotional:  Appealing to the emotions.

rhetoric:  Using words in speaking or writing to influence
          others.

INCORRECT TITLE:
“By John Best, July 8 at 4:59 am Link to this comment

MarthA, you have decided you will try to destroy this discussion opportunity.  Well, some of us have decided you will not.”

INCORRECT TITLE:
“By Cliff Carson, July 7 at 7:36 pm Link to this comment

MarthA

Stick a sock in it.

One word explanation of propaganda=Spin.”

INCORRECT TITLE:

“Dear MarthAa,

It has come to our attention that there have been a lot of negative interactions in the Truthdig forums between MarthAa, Inherit the Wind, and Shenonymous. As there have been several complaints, we’re writing to notify all three users that these quarrels are disrupting the discussion on the site, and Truthdig will not allow this to continue.

The site is here to encourage open discussion, but it is not a free-for-all. What users post becomes part of our publication. This is why we have a comment policy and set of guidelines about posting.

Below I am sending you once more the Truthdig Comment Policy for you to review. If you’d like to keep posting on Truthdig, please note the guidelines. Thanks.

It has come to our attention that there have been a lot of negative interactions in the Truthdig forums between MarthAa, Inherit the Wind, and Shenonymous. As there have been several complaints, we’re writing to notify all three users that these quarrels are disrupting the discussion on the site, and Truthdig will not allow this to continue.

The site is here to encourage open discussion, but it is not a free-for-all. What users post becomes part of our publication. This is why we have a comment policy and set of guidelines about posting.

Below I am sending you once more the Truthdig Comment Policy for you to review. If you’d like to keep posting on Truthdig, please note the guidelines. Thanks.”Truthdig Webmaster Tuesday, July 12, 2011 at 12:52 pm

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By MarthaA, July 12, 2011 at 10:23 pm Link to this comment

ATTENTION:  Truthdig Webmaster

Page 2 of 2

CORRECT TITLE:
“By MarthaA, July 10 at 10:37 am

Is John Best or Cliff Carson the Webmaster?  The reason I ask this question is that John Best, Cliff Carson and the Webmaster,  all three addressed me in the same disrespectful manner

Why do you, as the Webmaster, use the term MarthAa to address me with a warning about personal attacks against other people, when your use of MarthAa has been used as a slur on my name on the Truthdig forum as a personal attack against me?  It does not make sense to me that I should be addressed in a warning about me making personal attacks on others by way of a personal attack against me in the form of a slur on my name by the Webmaster——Please explain.

Is the verdict already in, even though I have made no personal attack on anyone.  I have responded in kind to personal attacks upon me, as I have reported to you previously without an answer.

I have no desire to personally attack anyone, but I also do not desire to be personally attacked and berated by a gang of other posters and being restrained from making a response in kind by the Truthdig forum.

If I am being accused of anything, personal attacks, or otherwise, please advise specifically what I am being accused of, and by whom.

As I have said before, what I am hearing more and more on the Truthdig forum is sounding more and more like the “Liberal Forum” of old, and that is a policy where all of the “Liberal Forum” posters could gang up on me, berate me, and personally attack me, and that was within “Liberal Forum’s Policy and Guidelines”, but if I responded to being berated and personally attacked, my response to being personally attacked was not allowed by “Liberal Forum Policy.”

I have been personally attacked over and over again, and I have told certain people who have acted badly that they should be ashamed of themselves for their bad behavior and I feel strongly that they should be.

It is up to you as the Webmaster to control both sides of bad behavior, and to specify what bad behavior you are making reference to, so that all concerned know that they are not being singled out to the exclusion of other favored posters.

You say, “If you’d like to keep posting on Truthdig, please note the guidelines.”  Does this policy apply exclusively to me, and not to the “gang of posters” on the Truthdig forum that has ganged up on me, to berate me, and personally attack me. 

I have asked you for a response previously and you have not responded.  I am therefore concerned that Truthdig forum Policy may be that it is alright for other Truthdig posters to gang up on me, berate me, and personally attack me, but that it is a violation for me to respond.

Please respond to my concerns.  I would like to continue to post on the Truthdig forum, but I do not feel that the price of my continuing to post on the Truthdig forum should be to have to accept being ganged up on, berated, and personally attacked by other Truthdig posters, who disagree with what I have to say, and that I alone should be threatened with not being allowed to continue to post on the Truthdig forum, if I respond to gang behavior by other Truthdig posters against me, who are not restrained in their behavior against me.

You make reference in your warning to a “free for all” and I have no interest at all in a “free for all.”  I have serious matters to discuss that are of concern and I do not appreciate your implication to me with regard to a “free for all” when I am only one person, and I am the one being ganged up on by other posters in a so called “free for all.”  Please explain, please, why the victim of a “free for all” should be warned of “free for all activity?”

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, July 12, 2011 at 8:12 am Link to this comment

Do they still teach the rationale for progressive and regressive taxing schemes at University? 

Is anyone else confused by what ‘progressive’ means in other contexts?  How about ‘Liberal’?

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By Night-Gaunt, July 11, 2011 at 10:29 pm Link to this comment

I’m for building bridges. Where we can be diverse and still find a common point to meet at. Our adversaries already have.

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By Cliff Carson, July 11, 2011 at 6:32 pm Link to this comment

Thanks Night-Gaunt

No surprise to me was that the Link you provided and its chart question set revealed me to be in the lower left quadrant, but not by much ( -1.33).  Economically much more to the left (-5.12).  Guess that reflects that when I say I am my brothers keeper I mean I don’t mind helping the needy.  I thought I would be closer to a loci of (-5,-5) but actually these Predictive Test that I have administered and took throughout my business life are really the slaves of the question set and the algorithms for the specialized versions of them.

But they do reveal a lot if a person answers honestly and the if question set/data set measurement has been honestly arranged.  Most Management people will have seen the A,B Personality Management Type Predictive Versions.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, July 11, 2011 at 5:24 pm Link to this comment

“.....what is the purpose of any forum, left or right, and what do the participants see as reason for participation?” 

The purpose of any forum?  To sell advertising space.

The reason pr participation?  I can only guess…..you’ll have to ask each of them, and I suppose some might actually know.

I suppose we all want to change the world, or keep it the same.

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By Night-Gaunt, July 11, 2011 at 3:37 pm Link to this comment

Remember that just as in a Hilbert Space, there are many other points of view in that cube and most of them aren’t even recognized for discussion. The Right/Left is very old, back to the 18th century and was carried on with little change beyond the actual meanings of “Left” & “Liberal” and “Right” or “Conservative.”

Here is one version that opens the field;
http://www.politicalcompass.org/

I search for others.

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By ardee, July 11, 2011 at 3:18 am Link to this comment

John Best, July 10 at 1:21 pm

It is difficult enough to carry on a discussion or a debate with supposedly like minded individuals as this site might clearly show. Even nuanced differences lead to cat fights and snarky commentary ( which I majored in at Michigan). I cannot even imagine the attempt in a forum filled with right wingers, however even tempered they might be.

My one experience with such would have been sometime in the late nineties when a by-invitation-only forum I attended asked Jim Robinson, the founder of FreeRepublic.com, to visit and exchange thoughts with us “librals”.

The exchange was “interesting” in the Chinese proverb sense of the word. Finally it ended when Robinson, beleaguered of course, noted as his last words on the subject of truth and accuracy, that he had cleared over two hundred thousand dollars that year off that forum and that was justification enough for his continuance of that ‘slimy’ forum.

On another note, your question raises another; what is the purpose of any forum, left or right, and what do the participants see as reason for participation?

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By MarthaA, July 10, 2011 at 7:20 pm Link to this comment

Cliff Carson, July 7 at 7:36 pm,

“One word explanation of propaganda=Spin.” — Cliff Carson, July 7 at 7:36 pm

“Give an example, Cliff, of how the word “spin”
defines the elements constructing any one of the seven (7)
different types of propaganda listed in “The Fine Art of
Propaganda, A Study of Father Coughlin’s Speeches” by The
Institute For Propaganda Analysis.

http://www.propagandacritic.com/articles/intro.ipa.html

How does “spin” define the binary nature of propaganda?
—Explain and give an example.

How does “spin” define the emotional nature of propaganda?
—Explain and give an example.

How does “spin” define the rhetoric of propaganda?—Explain and
give an example.

It is one thing to intuit that propaganda is “spin” and it is another
to define the process that defines propaganda beyond intuition.”
—MarthaA, July 10 at 10:37 am

Waiting for your example and explanation of how
the word “spin” defines propaganda, Cliff.

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By Cliff Carson, July 10, 2011 at 4:29 pm Link to this comment

Yes John Best

I’m not sure about Ardee but I have noticed a few of the other members on here on some of those sites.  And I think I also recognize some members on here who were not on those sites.

I have been a writer for the Populist Site, Newsvine, OEN, and a couple of others and used to post on a number of other sites some of them politically Neutral.  I also participated as a comment poster on these sites like I am doing here.

One thing for sure, on neutral sites like Netscape,Newsvine, Propeller, etc., when you write and post anything, the Trolls ( and they are legion)of the Party or Group you didn’t agree with will come after you spitting venom, like a couple of the ones on here.  Some of them on here I have encountered on other sites.

I did not always use the name Cliff Carson as my avatar but I probably did the majority of the time.  I probably posted over 200 Commentaries on the old Populist Site (it is nothing like the current site although it has the same Domain Name).  And nothing I had ever published there is still on it.

The former Editor on that site now runs another site, and it also is a very progressive site.  We still communicate now and then, and I still communicate with some of the other writers who were originally on there.  Most of the other writers for that site can be found featured on some of the other popular Political sites on the net.  Some on here.

I usually wrote Political Articles on PopulistAmerica and other subject article types on some of the other sites. 

But as to how those Conservative sites operate, I would say they span the spectrum - from interested in your views to “don’t bring that crap in here”.  One for sure with heavy financial backing “Unity08” I decided was a front organization for Bloomberg.  Front Groups in America should be forced to be open and transparent so people could see where they are coming from.  It is no fib that the Tea Party is financed by the Koch Brothers - and they have an agenda that any Progressive should abhor.

You may have noticed that my belief system incorporates no love for any particular Party.  I think we all need to be Americans First and I will go up against, or embrace, any sacred cow of any party if it fits in my belief system.

I don’t refer to the Republican and Democrat Party as the Two Headed Washington Monster lovingly.  I think the American people deserve better.

One thing I will do is listen to anyone’s idea or belief as long as they don’t insult me or act stupid and you could probably name a couple or three on here that I am not fond of.  I’m sure they don’t like me either.  Water and oil doesn’t seem to mix very well.

I think Party Loyalty is killing America.

And I am working on a book about that very thing.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, July 10, 2011 at 1:21 pm Link to this comment

Cliff, Ardee,
Have either of you fellows hung out in any ‘conservative’ blogs?  I’m wondering what they sound like.  I’m also wondering if it is worthwhile to deposit any ideas there that really make people think about this crazy polarization, and the crap various special interests are getting away with because of said polarization.

Got any recommendations?

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By MarthaA, July 10, 2011 at 10:52 am Link to this comment

John Best, July 8 at 4:59 am,

“All for one, one for all!” you say, John, with the
full confidence of the leader of a herd of lemmings headed for the
cliff, in full disregard of those standing in front of the precipice
warning of the danger.

In the moment lemming pride is a wonderful thing, John, but what
of the causal consequences of lemming pride in the measure of
moments, John?  What is there to take pride in after the lemmings
run over the cliff and die?

Would it not be greater pride to challenge herd instinct and save
the herd from going over the cliff?

Tell me John, what do you think, John?  Do you think, John?

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By MarthaA, July 10, 2011 at 10:37 am Link to this comment

Cliff Carson, July 7 at 7:36 pm

binary:      Consisting of two (2).

emotional:  Appealing to the emotions.

rhetoric:    Using words in speaking or writing to influence
              others.

No matter how you spin it, PROPAGANDA is always two emotional
choices
, you can’t get around it.  If you condense all kinds of
propaganda down, there is ALWAYS two of whatever, which is all
binary is; and ALWAYS appeals to the emotions with
words used to obtain influence for one of the two choices;
therefore, PROPAGANDA is binary emotional rhetoric; spin is what
is done with binary emotional rhetoric, not what propaganda is.

Give an example, Cliff, of how the word “spin” 
defines the elements constructing any one of the seven (7)
different types of propaganda listed in “The Fine Art of
Propaganda, A Study of Father Coughlin’s Speeches” by The
Institute For Propaganda Analysis
.

http://www.propagandacritic.com/articles/intro.ipa.html

How does “spin” define the binary nature of propaganda?
—Explain and give an example. 

How does “spin” define the emotional nature of propaganda?
—Explain and give an example.

How does “spin” define the rhetoric of propaganda?—Explain and
give an example.

It is one thing to intuit that propaganda is “spin” and it is another
to define the process that defines propaganda beyond intuition.

Propaganda = binary emotional rhetoric.

http://www.propagandacritic.com/articles/intro.ipa.html

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By ardee, July 10, 2011 at 5:21 am Link to this comment

John Best, July 8 at 4:59 am Link to this comment

MarthA, you have decided you will try to destroy this discussion opportunity.  Well, some of us have decided you will not.

Continue to walk towards the light,Mr. Best, you are doing fine! Next step is ignoring that duopoly’s posts, useless and stupid as they are.

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By Cliff Carson, July 8, 2011 at 11:57 am Link to this comment

Thank you John Best

Possibly now this thread can return to a most important issue:  Resistance

What American people need to resist:

We need to resist the ever increasing loss of our Government to the Corporation State.  We need to resist the growing descent into immorality of our Government.  We need to resist the transference of wealth from you and me to the Rick and Powerful.
 
How do we push back against this ugliness that is slowly consuming all our freedoms and those of our children?  Think about that.  Didn’t our ancestors come to a country full of promise and didn’t they do it for their childrens’ future - you and me.  I fully believe that our ancestors knew that they would have to struggle to set the table for us,  but they were willing to do that so those that would follow would enjoy the fruits of their labor.

In this very article by Hedges he points out that fully 1/4 of our Nations largest Corporations paid zero tax last year.  It is even worse than that.  In addition to no tax , many were given gifts of subsidies straight from your and my pocket to the richest and most powerful Corporations on Earth.  And you should also realize that as I type this, Congress is debating how best to avoid bankruptcy of this country.  The problem is that the most important issue to those elected representatives seems to be “How can we get the people of America to swallow our spin, that to get control of our economy, we must give even more control to the Corporate beast that put us in this position.”  That is the Republican outspoken plan.  The Democrats seem to be signaling that they want this also.

In a few words, those that we elected to work for the benefit of the people,  have sold their souls to the Corporate Beast.  Why do they do that?  They realize that is the only way they can get re-elected.  And if they can’t get re-elected they will have lost their position at the Corporate bribery line.

Is it possible that there can be no ethical, moral, honest people in positions of power?

I think that it is not only possible, but of a certainty.
 
There are good people in American.  I have great faith in the goodness of the American people.  What I question is the lack of commitment of my fellow citizens to overcome the problem of the Corporate intrusion into our Government.  Even that has another side of the coin.  If Government and Business would work together for the good of America, the result would be highly effective and profitable for the American citizen as well as for Corporate America.

How can we resist most effectively?
 
We first have to organize to fight the Beast, Corporate Influence over Government, and its enablers - our Two Headed Washington Monster, the Republican and Democrat Parties.

Until we commit to organizing against those criminals there is no need to discuss the problem any further.  First we need to discuss how to go about organizing.  Can we start a “Think Tank” about how to get this off the ground?

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, July 8, 2011 at 4:59 am Link to this comment

MarthA, you have decided you will try to destroy this discussion opportunity.  Well, some of us have decided you will not.

Call yourself a leftist all you want, but your endless writing serves the interests of the right.  The world will not accept anyone, including you,, on their terms.  There was a time when you might have learned this and written to us respectfully, in reasonable peer-to-peer fashion.  That time is past.  I ignore your entire post except on extremely rare occasions. 

Know this: we will not surrender this blogging space. 
Persistance is what resistance looks like. 
All for one, one for all!  Vive la Resistance!

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By Cliff Carson, July 7, 2011 at 7:36 pm Link to this comment

MarthA

Stick a sock in it.

One word explanation of propaganda=Spin.

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By Shenonymous, July 7, 2011 at 5:40 pm Link to this comment

Suit yourself.

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By MarthaA, July 7, 2011 at 5:18 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous, July 7 at 10:37 am,

“I believe most people don’t know they are being
duped.  .....  Focusing on how to inform the ignorant public
that they are being propagandized in simple terms they
can understand is the course in which liberals ought to be
committed.  This is my agenda ....” —By Shenonymous, July
1 at 9:07 am

This is NOT about the collection of empirical data.  This is about me
making statements about sophism, dialectic, and propaganda,
being asked to give examples, and my going to great length to do
so.

It is also about you, when you are asked to give examples of
YOUR simple terms, retreating into your false claims and beliefs
about propaganda defined as binary emotional rhetoric as a
distraction, rather than providing the so called “simple terms” you
have made such an issue of; http://www.alternet.org/news/151497/14_propaganda_techniques_fox_
Tactic No. 8 of the Propaganda Techniques of Fox News fits
the process you are using as a distraction in support of your false
claims and beliefs.
  It is up to YOU to provide examples of
whatever it is YOU were talking about as simple terms in three
words or less, that is more easily understood than “binary
emotional rhetoric,”
and we both know by now that you
cannot do so, that what YOU said was nothing more than lose talk
and that you will, as you have been doing, try to misdirect
dialogue away from your false claims by every means at your
disposal.

Be that as it may, I think that it is fairly clear to everyone that is
not trying to intentionally obfuscate understanding of “binary
emotional rhetoric”
as a definition of propaganda; a definition
that is simple and straight forward for use in propaganda analysis
for the masses, will agree that you cannot provide anything more
simple, as you said, and that, as a result, asking you to do so is
beating a dead horse and will therefore serve no useful purpose.

To whatever extent you were acting as an authority on the
Truthdig forum, YOUR authority for me is at an end, as a result of
your behavior on this matter, and I would think that the same
would be so for anyone else that does not have a vested interest
in defending your untenable position.

Unless you choose to give examples of the “simple terms” YOU
indicated, I cannot in good conscience give you the same respect
and deference that I have in the past, because your behavior
indicates to me that you are not worthy of that respect and
deference.

I have tried to give you a way out of your own self created
dilemma and you have chosen not to take it.

There are others on this forum, like ardee, that have
nothing to say and have a propensity for saying much about
nothing; from this point forward, I will consider you to be more in
the class of ardee and less respectable with regard to
your academic pretensions.

The way you have responded my perspective on this topic is your
affair and one that I disagree with.  You have your position and I
have mine.  I cannot and will not accommodate your position and
apparently you feel the same way.

I will continue to represent my perspective with regard to
“binary emotional rhetoric” being the most basic, simple,
and straight forward definition of propaganda that is possible that
serves both as an accurate structural definition and as means for
easy and effective propaganda analysis by the masses; I
assume that you will continue your claims for whatever reason you
choose to the contrary and that time will tell where truth lies.  I am
comfortable with my position and I cannot help but feel that you
have an ulterior motive and agenda with regard to what I consider
baseless claims to the contrary by you.

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By Shenonymous, July 7, 2011 at 10:37 am Link to this comment

No I do not agree with you.  But, your somewhat stepping back
is reason for me to respond.  Four simple terms:  brainwashing,
evangelism, indoctrination, hype are all words with which the public
is familiar, with the exception maybe of evangelism as it is more
associated with religion, but if the propaganda is in the realm of
religion, then the simple word would work better than BER. 
Nevertheless, they all carry dramatic implications.

With no empirical data collected either by you and admittedly by me,
I believe the term binary emotional rhetoric would be completely over
the head of most Americans.  The denizens of the TD forums are more
contemplative and informed relatively speaking than the general public,
and therefore not the best measure of ignorance, but even here there is
evidence from the posts made that your phrase is not comprehended
with much ease.  It is arcane.  If you require a more complex phrase
than the four single simple words I provided above, then SMOPO
systematic manipulation of public opinion would do a much better
job than your phrase binary emotional rhetoric in having the public
recognize at a glance what is happening to them when confronted with
propaganda without having to go through the travail of teaching them
the meaning of an inscrutable term.

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By MarthaA, July 7, 2011 at 9:41 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous, July 7 at 8:16 am ,

“I believe most people don’t know they are being
duped.  .....  Focusing on how to inform the ignorant public
that they are being propagandized in simple terms they
can understand is the course in which liberals ought to be
committed.  This is my agenda ....”
—By Shenonymous, July
1 at 9:07 am

This is not about my mistakes or your mistakes
either, for that matter, Shenonymous,
and it is not over whether or not you provided a
simple example; it is over YOUR prolonged
contention that YOU could provide “simple terms”
that are MORE SIMPLE than THREE WORDS,
“binary emotional rhetoric”
that I offered as
a definition for propaganda to be used by the
masses for propaganda analysis.

If you can do so, do so, or just make a statement
to the effect that the “simple terms” that YOU
indicated that are MORE SIMPLE than “binary
emotional rhetoric”
as a definition of
propaganda was misrepresented on YOUR PART
and that “binary emotional rhetoric” as
a definition of propaganda is the MOST SIMPLE
DEFINITION of PROPAGANDA that can be used by
the masses for propaganda analysis and that
“binary emotional rhetoric” as a
definition of propaganda is “the course in
which Liberals ought to be committed.” with
regard to analyzing and understanding
propaganda.

I am not really concerned about YOUR position of
right or wrong with regard to
“binary emotional rhetoric” being the most
simple definition of propaganda possible
that can be used by the masses for propaganda
analysis
, with regard to your past
pronouncements.

What I am concerned about at the present time
is whether or not YOU consider that “binary
emotional rhetoric”
is the MOST SIMPLE
DEFINITION of PROPAGANDA and whether or not
YOU will acknowledge that fact, or otherwise,
provide EXAMPLES of the “simple terms” you
have previously indicated.

If you now agree that “binary emotional
rhetoric”
is the MOST SIMPLE DEFINITION of
PROPAGANDA that can be used for propaganda
analysis by the masses, just say so and I will let
the matter drop.  I have no interest at all in this
matter other than the definition of propaganda
as “binary emotional rhetoric” being the MOST
SIMPLE DEFINITION of PROPAGANDA possible and
wanting to have an example, if there is an
example, in fact, to the contrary.

The following from the AlterNet forum by Dr. Cynthia Boaz are 14
additional examples of binary emotional rhetoric that IS
propaganda:

http://www.alternet.org/news/151497/14_propaganda_techniques_fox_"news"_uses_to_brainwash_americans/

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, July 7, 2011 at 9:33 am Link to this comment

Oh, I see, MarthA thinks ‘simple terms’ means ‘easy words’, like ‘duuuuuh’?

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By Shenonymous, July 7, 2011 at 8:16 am Link to this comment

MarthaA, you make a categorical mistake of definition, one of your
common mistakes.  By “simple terms,” you seem to have some
petrified idea that there is a list of Simple Terms that can be used
as a lexicon to demonstrate snap illustrations of propaganda. I did
provide an example of simple propaganda that you refuse to
acknowledge, such is the weakness in your usual stylized argument. 
Please don’t bother me any further with your anxieties.  They are
not mine and you are not able to “discuss” but only are able to be
an egotistical and idiosyncratic accuser whose claim of inadequacy
is vacant. You are absolutely silly to speak of me and my minions. 
I cannot and will not continue to have any conversation with you
under these circumstances.  I am moving on and I suggest that you
do the same before you suffer from appoplexy.

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By MarthaA, July 7, 2011 at 7:47 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous, July 4 at 5:06 pm,

“I believe most people don’t know they are being
duped.  .....  Focusing on how to inform the ignorant public
that they are being propagandized in simple terms they
can understand is the course in which liberals ought to be
committed.  This is my agenda ....”
—By Shenonymous, July
1 at 9:07 am

Shenonymous, you and your minions that support your
position are doing everything you can to change the conversation
from how YOU propose to inform the ignorant public that they are
being propagandized, in “simple terms” that they can understand
that is more simple than propaganda defined by three words,
“binary emotional rhetoric,” that is, as YOU have said,
“the course in which Liberals ought to be committed.”

Until YOU provide the “simple terms” YOU heralded, I view
everything else that YOU say as a distraction from YOUR inability
and refusal to provide YOUR so called “simple terms.”

If YOU can provide YOUR so called “simple terms,” then do
so.  Otherwise, it serves no point for me to get involved with YOU
and others in the creation of a distraction and a side show that
obfuscates and covers up YOUR inability and refusal to provide the
“simple terms” that YOU consider to be “the course in
which Liberals ought to be committed.”

I would like to move on from this topic also, but I spent too much
time and effort pandering to you and your minions’ agitation for
examples to let this pass; what goes around must come back
around, and if it does not, respect is lost for those who take
without expectation that what is given will be given back in equal
measure.

Before we can move on, YOU must give back examples of
YOUR “simple terms” in equal measure with regard to the
examples of propaganda, sophism, and dialectic provided by me at
YOUR request.  Until you do so, YOUR side show and distraction
from providing YOUR “simple terms” will be viewed by me
for what it is, a distraction and a side show to avoid
providing YOUR, so called, “simple terms,” which were
most likely amorphous nonsense that did not and does not exist.

If this is the case, I suggest that you just say so, and we can
move on on that basis.

The following from the AlterNet forum by Dr. Cynthia Boaz are 14
additional examples of binary emotional rhetoric that IS propaganda:

http://www.alternet.org/news/151497/14_propaganda_techniques_fox_"news"_uses_to_brainwash_americans/

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By MarthaA, July 7, 2011 at 6:58 am Link to this comment

I experienced a breakdown in communication just recently with my cell phone, because my niece put my cell phone on predictive text and my cell phone steadfastly refused to accept what I wanted to say in a text message in favor of what the phone wanted to say for me; this, I quickly realized, is the same breakdown in communications that happens with “you people” on Truthdig forum.

The problem was easily solved with regard to my phone, I simply took the phone off predictive text, so that I could text message what I wanted to say, rather than what the phone wanted to say for me; The problem with “you people” is——How to get “you people” on Truthdig forum off predictive text?

If “you people” can get off the predictive text setting with regard to others, and concern yourselves with what YOU say, and let others do the same, perhaps the breakdown in communications on Truthdig will resolve itself the same as with my cell phone when I took it off predictive text.

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By Cliff Carson, July 4, 2011 at 7:54 pm Link to this comment

Thanks john Best, I will see if I can give you what you ask for.

When I speak of an Absolute Standard, I mean a Standard Rule of Law that all citizens must obey.  To become a citizen one must implicitly or explicitly adopt that Standard.  When a citizen purposefully fails to perform to that Rule of Law, then that citizen has knowingly deviated from the accepted Rule of Law and the consequence is swift and sure Punishment.

Citizens of the United States have the Constitution as the Absolute Standard required by all Citizens of America.  These Citizens elect Leaders who cannot be placed into office until they swear to uphold and protect the Constitution from all enemies, Foreign and Domestic.  So when these elected leaders purposefully deviate from the Rule of Law , they have knowingly broken their pledge of trust in upholding the Rule of Law.
 
John, you as an Engineer know that there is always deviation from the Ideal (Perfection) and that Control of the Process is designed to bring the process as close to the Ideal as possible.  This is done by measurement of the system process and from the data gathered, a trend line can be generated to predict a future expectation, and from the magnitude of those deviations, the Engineer can perform process analysis to nudge the process back toward the desired end.

Our goal here is for our Society to adhere as closely to the Standard, the Constitution,  the Rule of Law, as can be managed, knowing that there will always be the criminal element that will be trying to game the system.  Gaming the System is defined as any planned deviation from the Standard - performing criminal acts.

A Political Engineer should be able to recognize the trend line of the Political Process and perform analysis of the effects to identify the cause of the deviation.  From this a plan to bring the Political Process back into “Process Control” can be developed.
What I am saying is that if we let the deviations continue unabated , entropy drives the process continually into evolving disorder - anarchy.

How do we stop those deviations and what happens when we do?  The deviations I have been talking about are criminal acts.  So how do you stop criminal acts?  You remove the perpetrators from the process flow.  You put them in jail.  Yes there will always be new perpetrators (and that will be natural variation) but you won’t have to contend with an ever increasing deviant base, I. e. you will have removed the repetitive influence of unpunished criminal activity.

The trend line will change from moving away from law and order to moving toward law and order.  And if the “correction” is swift and sure, the would be criminal sooner or later, will be persuaded that if they follow a criminal path - the price they will surely pay and swift punishment that will follow will give them pause to find other lawful ways to prosper.

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By Shenonymous, July 4, 2011 at 5:06 pm Link to this comment

MarthaA, you obviously did not like my example of the Wheaties
advertisement, which is about the simplest form of propaganda
ever invented.  All advertising is propaganda.  Some of it is BER
and some is not.  And I showed why Wheaties, the Breakfast of
Champions qualified as BER. You appear to be too dense.  Too
bad.  Since you did not respond, it is assumed it was an excellent
example!  Oh, I get it, it was too simple. 

Since I have never watched Fox News I cannot and do not have their
technique of propaganda.  It could be quite surprising to you there
might be someone of whom you accuse of a tactic to have never been
tainted by the very thing you use in the accusation.  You cannot even
tell you appear to be using only half a mind.  It is been said that it is
easy to fool someone but impossible to get them to admit they have
been fooled (thank you John).  If you would describe the Fox News
tactics it could be helpful to compare what I’ve said to it.  Stop accusing
me of something of which you are ignorant.  You shall have to show
exactly how my responses to you are Fox News tactics, sentence by
sentence otherwise you show that you are full of shit and hubris.  I
would hate to pull ThomasG’s bucket out of storage.

You keep referring links to this forum as if we should do your inane
research work.  In your imperious opinion of yourself, you continue to
try to enlist who you see as lackeys to do your thinking.  You are that
much deficient in the proper thinking skills as to be dysfunctional so
much that you cannot give proper examples.  You don’t even seem to
understand exactly what an example is.  This is not a class and you are
not a teacher.  I am not going traipsing around the Internet on your
“instructions” to find what you yourself is required to demonstrate if
you think you are to be thought of as credible.  So far you have only
shown to be pretentious.  Don’t take just my word for it.  Ask around.

You seem to me to be a twin of the Sophist orator Gorgias, a fraternal
twin in that Gorgias at least entertained his audience with his plethora
of words.  Needing to learn The Seven’s Rule, your technique is to
repeat and repeat and repeat yourself thinking that psychologically it
will wear the readers down and capitulate to your pontifications. That is
what you are, a pontificator.  You erroneously think you can sit in
judgment of me, and others who populate this forum and you continue
to denigrate us who will not bend to your will.  You are well on your
delusional way to drying up and blowing away waiting for another
example of simple propaganda from me.

Sorry MarthaA, you are dismissed.

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MarthaA's avatar

By MarthaA, July 4, 2011 at 4:01 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous, July 4 at 3:19 pm,

“I believe most people don’t know they are being
duped.  .....  Focusing on how to inform the ignorant public
that they are being propagandized in simple terms they
can understand is the course in which liberals ought to be
committed.  This is my agenda ....”
—By Shenonymous, July
1 at 9:07 am

Yeah, yeah, sure, sure, Shenonymous.

I am still waiting for YOUR EXAMPLES of YOUR “simple terms”
propaganda.  Until you get that taken care of as an example,
YOUR words ring hollow and meaningless, and using techniques of
Fox News Network’s broadcasting propaganda to cover up what
you are doing in the litter box to denigrate me is a transparent
evasion and meaningless with regard to academic content.

The following from the AlterNet forum by Dr. Cynthia Boaz are 14
additional examples of binary emotional rhetoric that IS
propaganda:

http://www.alternet.org/news/151497/14_propaganda_techniques_fox_"news"_uses_to_brainwash_americans/

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Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, July 4, 2011 at 3:55 pm Link to this comment

It is also worth emphasizing once again that nationalist feeling can be purely negative. There are, for example, Trotskyists who have become simply enemies of the USSR without developing a corresponding loyalty to any other unit. When one grasps the implications of this, the nature of what I mean by nationalism becomes a good deal clearer. A nationalist is one who thinks solely, or mainly, in terms of competitive prestige. He may be a positive or a negative nationalist—that is, he may use his mental energy either in boosting or in denigrating—but at any rate his thoughts always turn on victories, defeats, triumphs and humiliations. He sees history, especially contemporary history, as the endless rise and decline of great power units, and every event that happens seems to him a demonstration that his own side is on the upgrade and some hated rival is on the downgrade. But finally, it is important not to confuse nationalism with mere worship of success. The nationalist does not go on the principle of simply ganging up with the strongest side. On the contrary, having picked his side, he persuades himself that it is the strongest, and is able to stick to his belief even when the facts are overwhelmingly against him. Nationalism is power-hunger tempered by self-deception. Every nationalist is capable of the most flagrant dishonesty, but he is also—since he is conscious of serving something bigger than himself—unshakeably certain of being in the right. George Orwell 1945 essay on the psychology of Nationalism also fits this forum if not many such forums.

Some don’t seem to understand that from the simplest things complexity can and does grow. If simplicity is propaganda how can complexity be anything else?

The full essay is here;

http://www.resort.com/~prime8/Orwell/nationalism.html

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By MarthaA, July 4, 2011 at 3:35 pm Link to this comment

John Best, July 4 at 12:20 pm,

“I believe most people don’t know they are being
duped.  .....  Focusing on how to inform the ignorant public
that they are being propagandized in simple terms they
can understand is the course in which liberals ought to be
committed.  This is my agenda ....”
—By Shenonymous, July
1 at 9:07 am

The Code of Hammurabi was an absolute, and the way it was
passed down was by way of being chiseled into stone; in today’s
time the cyclical nature of culture seems to be a better answer to
the problem, except for the fact that those of high culture tend to
try to prevent the dissemination of culture, thus the burning of the
Library of Alexandria and the killing of Hypatia due to the fear of
the common people that the cultural information in the Library of
Alexandria would be used against them.  The same problem exists
today that existed in the time of the Library of Alexandria. 
Everything that is old is new again.

The following from the AlterNet forum by Dr. Cynthia Boaz are 14
additional examples of binary emotional rhetoric that IS
propaganda:

http://www.alternet.org/news/151497/14_propaganda_techniques_fox_"news"_uses_to_brainwash_americans/

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, July 4, 2011 at 3:19 pm Link to this comment

Minions?  Me?  Mannnn I would lovvvve to have a backscratcher! 
What a hoot!  Despicable Me Minions!  Again you have a vivid
imagination that gets stuck in its conceits.  You appear to be
not unlike the ouroboros showing all the signs of eternally
swallowing your own tongue. Now you know I go it alone MarthaA
and always have on these forums.  You and old Thomas have
chronically tried to bunch some of us together who are quite
disparate in political attitude, so you can shoot your wads of
condemnation, poison darts all at one time at a cadre of those
who do not agree with you regardless of their political grounding.
I said you were lazy.  Not making distinctions is lazy thinking.  If
some intelligent collaboration would ignite among the truthdippers,
it is highly likely I would get involved. Only the shadow knows what is
truly lurking in our hearts. 

Simple Terms Propaganda?  Way…elll we could give it the acronym STP
and STP is a cleaning product.  So I’d say yes, we are asking for a
cleaning up of the language into simple terms for the purpose of
effective propaganda.  Obviously the notion of simple terms does
not compute in your overly tangled brain.  I suggest some serious
meditation to eliminate all the mental cobwebs. A reordering of your
thoughts is called for.

BTW:  Thanks for giving me all the press!  I love seeing my name so
many times up in lights.  It is my egotistical nature.

“America is Great because America is Good, If America ever ?ceases to
be Good, America will cease to be Great.”  You say this is a piece of BER
propaganda and you explain why you think so.  The problem as I see it
is that it is too scant to be effective binary emotional rhetoric. It does
not pit good with evil, not enough even by implication, nor does it
imply what is the opposite of great.  It does not work as BER.  It is a
slogan that is true, but great and good do not equate to qualify it as
bona fide propaganda.  Yours is a piece of chop logic, looking
somewhat like a modus ponens, while a valid form of logic its truth
depends on the truth of the premises and the internal fallacy of your
example is that good does not equate to great.  Now it might look like
a catchy saying but I would bet no one is going around saying it even if
our illustrious Cliff Carson said it. (sorry Cliff no insult intended, but I
don’t think you meant it as a piece of propaganda anyway).

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By MarthaA, July 4, 2011 at 3:13 pm Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt, July 4 at 1:43 pm,

“I believe most people don’t know they are being
duped.  .....  Focusing on how to inform the ignorant public
that they are being propagandized in simple terms they
can understand is the course in which liberals ought to be
committed.  This is my agenda ....”
—By Shenonymous, July
1 at 9:07 am

It is my desire and solemn wish to give the USA a future with as
little propaganda as possible, and all who want the same are
welcome to participate in the effort.

However, “simple terms” propaganda as “the course
which Liberals ought to be committed.”
is NOT the way to get
to a USA future with as little propaganda as possible.

During World War II the U.S. Government shut down the
Institute For Propaganda Analysis because the U.S.
Government did not want U.S Government Propaganda subjected
to propaganda analysis.  We must all take a contrary position to
that of the U.S. Government if we want to live in a USA that has as
little propaganda as possible; we must be willing to have all
propaganda subject to propaganda analysis, including our own
propaganda ——Our own propaganda must not be
exempt
; if you agree with this statement, we have
established a foothold of “Common Ground.”

The following from the AlterNet forum by Dr. Cynthia Boaz are 14
additional examples of binary emotional rhetoric that IS
propaganda:

http://www.alternet.org/news/151497/14_propaganda_techniques_fox_"news"_uses_to_brainwash_americans/

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By Night-Gaunt, July 4, 2011 at 1:43 pm Link to this comment

First of all I am nobody’s minion. I am a free thinker. I can work with others either directly, or in this case, indirectly when our ideas are in the same general area of thought and expression. I’ve seen enough trolls to know when they are in the area. Even if they don’t know they are trolls, they still act like them.

I would suggest looking up Persecution Complex as giving yet another handle on these twins of dissembly.

I have come to the conclusion that propaganda is the opposite of intelligence as a means of enlightenment. It has been strong here for many decades working to snuff out that Enlightenment and has done a near complete job of it. Sad to see. Usually it takes visitors from other countries to notice just how all encompassing it is. Being born into it it is harder to see at first. Some of us do. Many do not. What will the future hold? It is in our hands and those who wish to give us a different kind of USA.

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By MarthaA, July 4, 2011 at 12:57 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous, July 4 at 10:36 am,

“I believe most people don’t know they are being
duped.  .....  Focusing on how to inform the ignorant public
that they are being propagandized in simple terms they
can understand is the course in which liberals ought to be
committed.  This is my agenda ....”
—By Shenonymous, July
1 at 9:07 am

“You vilify me but I do not castigate
you but only describe what I see evidenced in your incessant and
prolonged invectives in lieu of discussion or dialogue.”

Shenonymous, July 4 at 10:36 am

I do not wish to villify you at all.  My position is that YOU and YOUR
minions asked for examples from me, and I provided those
examples in a forthright manner, in the spirit of FREE and OPEN
DIALOGUE in the expectation that YOU would do the same.

As YOU say, “I do not castigate you but only describe what I
see evidenced in your incessant and prolonged invectives in lieu of
discussion or dialogue.”
—in particular that, irrespective
of what you say, I provided the examples that YOU and YOUR
minions asked for, pressed hard to get, and to the present time, you
have not provided the examples that I have asked for of what YOU
call “simple terms” that “they can
understand”
that is “the course in which Liberals
ought to be committed.”

From my perspective, YOU are using FOX Broadcasting
Propaganda techniques
to try to avoid providing examples of
YOUR “AGENDA”, the “simple terms” YOU indicated that is
“the course in which Liberals ought to be committed.”

http://www.alternet.org/news/151497/14_propaganda_techniques_fox_"news"_uses_to_brainwash_americans/

You are using FOX Broadcasting Propaganda tactics to try to
denigrate me in order to get out of providing examples to me of the
“simple terms” that is, as YOU say, the course in which
Liberals ought to be committed.”

Cease and desist from YOUR Fox Broadcasting Propaganda tactics of
trying to denigrate me as a diversion to avoid providing examples of
the “simple terms” YOU have heralded; the solution to
YOUR dilemma is as simple as that——I did so in response to YOUR
request for examples; I ask ONLY that YOU do the same, and that
YOU lose the Fox Broadcasting propaganda tactics as a diversion to avoid doing so.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, July 4, 2011 at 12:20 pm Link to this comment

Clif, Here’s the old problem: “.......... all of humanity is corruptible.  That is why, in my opinion, we need to have a Absolute from which there can be no deviation without consequences.”

The absolutes are recorded as best we can and deviation happens.  How do we maintain some absolutes, and can you give me an example?  How do we pass it on from generation to generation? That pressure to game the system, to take for oneself at the expense of the overall group is like water behind the dyke….always present and unrelenting.  Religions can hold the dyke for a while, but look, religion has become the tool the ‘system gamers’ are using to blow up the dyke!  How do you incorporate serious long term sustainable values? 

Let me throw in an example: Don;t have a baby you can’t personally support and educate to a point that’s at or better than your own level.  Does that ‘value’ fit in here as an ‘absolute’?

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By MarthaA, July 4, 2011 at 11:46 am Link to this comment

Cliff Carson, July 4 at 7:45 am,


““America is Great because America is Good, If America ever
ceases to be Good, America will cease to be Great”. ” —Cliff
Carson, July 4 at 7:45 am

The above quote, Cliff, is propaganda, irregardless of
who said it.

The above quote that you quoted is propaganda because it is a
binary emotional choice between great and
not great that is determined by a subjective
emotional standard of good and bad
; a rhetorical device is
used “ceasing to be great or being great” to lead those
being propagandized to make a choice that America is either good
or bad; that if America is good America is great and, conversely, if
America is great, America is good—this is the doctrine of
Triumphant Exceptionalism, also, if America is bad, it is
because America has ceased to be great and America must do
whatever is necessary to be great in order to be good; this was
the rationale behind Manifest Destiny, that it was
necessary to commit genocide against the Native Populations of
the American Indians for America to be good; again, this is the
doctrine of Triumphant Exceptionalism.

This Truthdig thread is entitled, “This is What Resistance Looks
Like”—It is time that the American Population should start to
resist propaganda to promote American Style Triumphant
Exceptionalism and all Propaganda
.

Triumphant Exceptionalism Propaganda has been used
over the past 235 years to enable slavery, commit genocide
against the Native Populations of the United States, and to make
the 70% Majority Common Population of the United States, the
American Populace, into a class and culture of wage slaves that
are in service to the American Aristocracy, a 10% minority
population, and the American Middle Class, a 20% minority
population; it seems to me that, as Barack Obama said about it
being time for a change, that it is time for a change in the United
States with regard to the blatant use of propaganda, not just the
propaganda of Triumphant Exceptionalism, but all propaganda
that is used to lead the American Populace to accept a false sense
of advantage as the benefit of life, liberty, and the pursuit of
happiness with freedom and justice for all.

What say you?  Are you for or against the use of propaganda by
class and cultural minorities in service to their own greedy self
interest to control and benefit from presenting and
institutionalizing a false sense of advantage as the only choice
given to the American Populace, a propagandistic choice?

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By Shenonymous, July 4, 2011 at 10:36 am Link to this comment

It is a matter of perspective isn’t it, MarthaA? Your strategy of
repetition of fosters rote or memorization learning.  This leaves
the reader of your posts impoverished and unable to assess the
merit of what you say and obviously from all of the responses,
your approach interferes with the development of understanding
of what it is you hope to accomplish.  I don’t know if you are a
bonafide progressive or a masked Republican shill in Democratic
sheep’s clothing (typical Democratic political behavior these days)
as some people on the forums theorize, mostly I fear because of
your inscrutable manner of presenting your “case.”  You know I do
not accuse you of either case.  You vilify me but I do not castigate
you but only describe what I see evidenced in your incessant and
prolonged invectives in lieu of discussion or dialogue.  You are
hardheaded against hearing what your readers are saying. Your
method is too convoluted and arcane in language.  You appear
to be blinded by your own hubris. 

To help you with your program to teach the general public the ability to
more accurately assess the data when information is propaganda, via
binary emotional rhetoric, MarthaA.  You might find the link
http://www.holisticeducator.com/traditionalparadigm.htm helpful.

Now one more thing.  Propaganda is subject specific.  It is your thesis
that binary emotional rhetoric is the definition of propaganda.  I argue
and challenge this.  I see that is how propaganda works.  BER is not a
definition of propaganda, but an operational mode of its exploitation. 
My thesis is that propaganda is most effective when its language is
simplified, gets to the heart of the message as quickly as possible,
becomes easily replicated in the culture so that it spreads like wildfire. 
I would be happy to give a simplified version of any piece of political
propaganda you would offer. But you have not offered one piece of
propaganda yet that would demonstrate your point of binary emotional
rhetoric.  Do it and I will do as you ask.  In the manner of Socrates, I
will give you a piece of simplified propaganda already in the culture,
that does in fact demonstrate the propagandistic implications of BER. 
Wheaties, the breakfast of champions!  The emotionally laden word
of course is champion, who would not want to be a champion.  That is
contrasted with failure, no one wants to fail, hence setting up the binary
implication.  It is pure rhetoric since it is not a provable proverb.  Maybe
some champions eat Cheerios.  I’ll take mine with cranberries.

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