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The Greeks Get It

Posted on May 24, 2010
AP / Petros Giannakouris

Numerous riots have gripped Athens during the last year or so of unrest.

By Chris Hedges

(Page 2)

We are facing the collapse of the world’s financial system. It is the end of globalization. And in these final moments the rich are trying to get all they can while there is still time. The fusion of corporatism, militarism and internal and external intelligence agencies—much of their work done by private contractors—has given these corporations terrifying mechanisms of control. Think of it, as the Greeks do, as a species of foreign occupation. Think of the Greek riots as a struggle for liberation.

Dwight Macdonald laid out the consequences of a culture such as ours, where the waging of war was “the normal mode of existence.” The concept of perpetual war, which eluded the theorists behind the 19th and early 20th century reform and social movements, including Karl Marx, has left social reformers unable to deal with this effective mechanism of mass control. The old reformists had limited their focus to internal class struggle and, as Macdonald noted, never worked out “an adequate theory of the political significance of war.” Until that gap is filled, Macdonald warned, “modern socialism will continue to have a somewhat academic flavor.”

Macdonald detailed in his 1946 essay “The Root Is Man” the marriage between capitalism and permanent war. He despaired of an effective resistance until the permanent war economy, and the mentality that went with it, was defeated. Macdonald, who was an anarchist, saw that the Marxists and the liberal class in Western democracies had both mistakenly placed their faith for human progress in the goodness of the state. This faith, he noted, was a huge error. The state, whether in the capitalist United States or the communist Soviet Union, eventually devoured its children. And it did this by using the organs of mass propaganda to keep its populations afraid and in a state of endless war. It did this by insisting that human beings be sacrificed before the sacred idol of the market or the utopian worker’s paradise. The war state provides a constant stream of enemies, whether the German Hun, the Bolshevik, the Nazi, the Soviet agent or the Islamic terrorist. Fear and war, Macdonald understood, was the mechanism that let oligarchs pillage in the name of national security.

“Modern totalitarianism can integrate the masses so completely into the political structure, through terror and propaganda, that they become the architects of their own enslavement,” he wrote. “This does not make the slavery less, but on the contrary more— a paradox there is no space to unravel here. Bureaucratic collectivism, not capitalism, is the most dangerous future enemy of socialism.”


Square, Site wide

Macdonald argued that democratic states had to dismantle the permanent war economy and the propaganda that came with it. They had to act and govern according to the non-historical and more esoteric values of truth, justice, equality and empathy. Our liberal class, from the church and the university to the press and the Democratic Party, by paying homage to the practical dictates required by hollow statecraft and legislation, has lost its moral voice. Liberals serve false gods. The belief in progress through war, science, technology and consumption has been used to justify the trampling of these non-historical values. And the blind acceptance of the dictates of globalization, the tragic and false belief that globalization is a form of inevitable progress, is perhaps the quintessential illustration of Macdonald’s point. The choice is not between the needs of the market and human beings. There should be no choice. And until we break free from serving the fiction of human progress, whether that comes in the form of corporate capitalism or any other utopian vision, we will continue to emasculate ourselves and perpetuate needless human misery. As the crowds of strikers in Athens understand, it is not the banks that are important but the people who raise children, build communities and sustain life. And when a government forgets whom it serves and why it exists, it must be replaced.

“The Progressive makes History the center of his ideology,” Macdonald wrote in “The Root Is Man.” “The Radical puts Man there. The Progressive’s attitude is optimistic both about human nature (which he thinks is good, hence all that is needed is to change institutions so as to give this goodness a chance to work) and about the possibility of understanding history through scientific method. The Radical is, if not exactly pessimistic, at least more sensitive to the dual nature; he is skeptical about the ability of science to explain things beyond a certain point; he is aware of the tragic element in man’s fate not only today but in any collective terms (the interests of Society or the Working Class); the Radical stresses the individual conscience and sensibility. The Progressive starts off from what is actually happening; the Radical starts off from what he wants to happen. The former must have the feeling that History is ‘on his side.’ The latter goes along the road pointed out by his own individual conscience; if History is going his way, too, he is pleased; but he is quite stubborn about following ‘what ought to be’ rather than ‘what is.’ ”

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, May 25, 2010 at 4:08 pm Link to this comment

RonF, seems Fox News Cherry picking I see!

“It isn’t war that is driving us into debt, it’s social programs.  It’s people expecting the government to support them instead of doing it themselves.”

I got mine too Ron, so ........!

It was easy to find numbers disagreeing with RonF, in fact so easy I suspect I was supposed too? Whose numbers are right, of course not mine for I am against the war any war and if one is for war the numbers look quite different and focus on those damn social programs like education in Texas, we cannot let those Texans get uppity! 

No it is not the war that is driving us into debt? How about moronic stupidity such as Fox News and friends flag waving propaganda News of the highest order.

Numbers are all over the place, surely it is not the war at all!

Interesting post Redhorse, a great improvement over the constant banging of Sr. Costas head against the Liberty Bell. At least I can comment on RonF’s post in agreement or disagreement, without taking anger management.

RonF, how about citing your economic sources, please do not say Fox News! I will show you mine if you show me yours!

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By johnQpublius, May 25, 2010 at 4:04 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I’m trying to get this straight. The Greeks are angry because nobody will lend them any more money in order for their government to keep giving them free money to buy more of other people’s stuff than they produce themselves. That’s easy enough to follow. I certainly wouldn’t lend money to a deadbeat, and I really don’t know anyone who would.

By some mystical chain of logic beyond my tea bagger mental ability this is somehow a manifestation of great evil.

None of my customers will give me any free money if I don’t give them something in return no matter how big a hissy fit I throw.

Shame on me for being so unenlightened as to believe that that’s fair and reasonable.

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By Tennessee-Socialist, May 25, 2010 at 3:45 pm Link to this comment

DEAR FRIENDS: THE 3 MAIN HORSES OF THE APOCALYPSE OF AMERICAN-FAMILIES ARE: Electricity bills, mortgage or monthly-rent bills, and phone bills.

Americans need a socialist system. Under a socialist system electricity, phone, cable-tv, water, and even real-estate (apartments, houses) will be owned by the government. Government owned corporations are non-profit, which would lead to much lower fees and bills for utility and monthly basic needs of american families.

Not to mention the other goodies of socialism like: 12 to 15 dollars minimum wage laws, free medical services, free universities, free colleges, less expensive pleasures like movies, gyms, theme parks, vacation cruise lines would also be cheaper etc.

Even children would benefit with socialism. Disney World and Bush Gardens entrance would be much cheaper,

Less expensive cars and transportation, since the Big 3 Auto Makers would also be owned by the government, airlines, and most forms of transportation would also be owned by the government. Gasoline and diesel would not be at 3 dollars a gallon but at 1 dollar a gallon.

Face it, socialism would make life better for all americans.

I forgot a lot of things that would be cooler with a socialist system, like cheaper cheese, cheaper hams, cheaper burgers, pizzas would be much cheaper as well, haha




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By Tennessee-Socialist, May 25, 2010 at 3:26 pm Link to this comment




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By Spooky-43, May 25, 2010 at 3:17 pm Link to this comment


          PISSED OFF.COM
seeing all these communists firing each other up  

love it   any chance of a big demonstration soon

makes it easier when you are close together  

I can recommend some nice wide open places  


you have a very large bookcase ma’am    

and you know all those big words  

and all I have is a cellar full of bullets  

oh well       I’ll take my chances  


been waiting on it for near 50 years

knew it was coming   ready to go

are you ready for the blood in the street

nothing new to us   we have been through it


need to get this over with one way or the other

should we start immediately

or should we give you a couple of days

maybe you need to prepare

no   don’t waste your time

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By gerard, May 25, 2010 at 2:14 pm Link to this comment

Thanks to RedHorse for the summary—but as to “this thread is about violence” and “Everybody’s cryin’ mercy, but they don’t know the meaning of the word”—all the more reason to consider exploring nonviolent change and possibilities of using it.  People cannot know the meaning of “mercy” as long as brutality is practiced.(No doubt hundreds of prisoners in Guantanamo and elsewhere pleaded for mercy, but—the interrogators had been taught brutality.) 

Teach mercy. Teach nonviolence.  Teach common sense.
Teach human survival.  Teach new approaches where old reactions have failed.

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By RonF, May 25, 2010 at 1:48 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The former right-wing government of Greece lied about the size of the country’s budget deficit. It was not 3.7 percent of gross domestic product but 13.6 percent.

Sure they did.  Because if they had told the truth they wouldn’t have been allowed into the Euro.  They also needed to keep lying to support the continued provision of social services to their citizens.

The corporate overlords will demand that we too impose draconian controls and cuts or see credit evaporate.

Would you loan money to people who just spend and spend and spend and demonstrate no prospect of being able to pay back the loan?

And the corporate state, despite this suffering, will continue to plunge us deeper into debt to make war.

Actually, Obama’s current 2010 budget proposal (as per <a >Wiki</a>) spends $2.184 on Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, various other mandatory programs - pretty much all of which are various social programs - and interest on the existing national debt (would you lend someone money without make money on the loan?).  Of the rest of the total $3.5 trillion budget, only $663.7 billion is Department of Defense.  The Budget is estimated to be about $1.2 trillion in debt - that’s what, about 1/3 of the budget?  So even if you kill off the military entirely (most of which is maintaining the military, BTW, not fighting the wars) you’re still in huge debt.  We’re borrowing 1 out of every 3 dollars we spend, and are spending at least 2 out of every 3 dollars on social programs.  It isn’t war that is driving us into debt, it’s social programs.  It’s people expecting the government to support them instead of doing it themselves.

We OWE $14.1 Trillion., about 6 times our annual revenues.  We didn’t do that fighting wars.  We did that by steadily increasing social spending while military spending (as a fraction of our GDP) has remained relatively constant and while revenues didn’t rise as fast.

Greece is in debt because 60% of their population works for the government and expects to retire at age 50.  Sounds nice.  How does it get paid for?  Soak the rich?  Even they don’t have enough money.  California is in Greece’s position because 140,000 of their people paid 50% of the taxes that were increased steadily to pay for more and more programs and for government worker pensions that far exceed those of private enterprise.  So they moved out of the state.  Why should they stay?  Would you?

Don’t believe me.  Do your own research.  You’ll see.

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By WriterOnTheStorm, May 25, 2010 at 1:48 pm Link to this comment


I don’t always agree with you, but I like your attitude. Not only are you smarter
than your “average bear”, but you’ve also got enough common sense not the
break out the marshmallows when your house is on fire.

The question isn’t why are you so angry? It’s why isn’t anybody else here angry?

Keep giving ‘em hell.

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By CEOUNICOM, May 25, 2010 at 1:38 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

““By Paul_GA, May 24 at 9:05 am #
I think it was Mencken who once said that every now and again, men must feel
tempted to spit on their hands, hoist the black flag, and start slitting throats.
Perhaps for the Greeks, the time has come. One hopes it won’t come across
the Water, but you never know ...”“

Yes paul, he did.

But if you like Menken, you’d be aware he was generally disgusted with the hoi
polloi, and thought most idiots didnt deserve democracy, and his point in that
quote was in reference to what he felt about people for whom rational debate
is no longer meaningful.

The idiots protesting in Greece pretty much fit the ticket for the victims he
would have in mind.  Metaphorically, that is.


“Democracy is the pathetic belief in the wisdom of collective ignorance.”

“Giving every man a vote has no more made men wise and free than
Christianity has made them good.”

Just saying.  If you’re going to quote the guy, at least dont make him spin in his

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By REDHORSE, May 25, 2010 at 1:37 pm Link to this comment

So,consensus and vision,escape us once more. The inhabitants of corporate insanity scream themselves hoarse, yet remain, straightjacketed, medicated and impotent. The ringmaster at the bloody circus offers yet another sideshow of the macabre as the hands of Democracy trembling with anticipation open the letter from K Street: “PAROLE DENIED!!”

    The range of thought and emotion expressed here is dramatic and extreme. Facts and political opinion often hit the mark. But nothing changes. No answer comes. OLD MAN TURTLE and SHIFT give us the clue. There IS a purification underway. A great turning. Technology and consciousness have outstripped old ideals and political systems. They no longer apply.We’re being carried kicking and screaming over the edge into world cataclysm. And OLDMAN is right. Why fear?? Perhaps it’s time to muster a little dignity. Kneejerk is the enemy, we do need clarity. Turning clockwise in the park may or may not be an approach to greater consciousness but NEMESIS is correct about one thing. You better be god%@#mn sure of the outcome before you start calling in airstrikes on the little breathing room we’ve got left.

    COSTA’S rage and ELLIS paranoia inhabit us all. I enjoy COSTA (ELLIS paranoia is justified). We Americans are often blind to our own iniquity—and it is painfull and hard to accept that “millions worldwide” do hate us dead. They do hate us TRUVIRGIN and, we hate ourselves. That’s where the wellspring of depression and hopelessness in our national psyche originates. Yeah DRUTHERS, this is zombie land.

    TY you for the history PROLE. The coming storm is teenagers with no future. COSTA is right about the theft of our childrens lives. The violence my grandchildren experienced in our so called educational system left them with phycical and emotional scars that will never heal. They could not be worse off if they’d never encountered public education.

    The dirty secret is, young people inhabit a violent world top heavy in prison, drug and gang culture. (“Do you understand that dog—now don’t be a rat, bi#ch—-I’m not pimpin’—I’m just represent’n—the real future”) Public Education has failed—like representative govt. it is an illusion. MSM, Madison Avenue and the culture of victimhood enabled by a leadership afraid of individual power destroyed our families. There was $$$$$$ to be made. They didn’t give a #@ck about lives or real education. They just wanted theirs. Do you think our young people don’t see the destruction and know what’s coming down the pike. They do. And our leadership will lock them up and murder them in the streets before they lift a finger to help them.

    GERARD:this thread is about violence. An example would be, you’ve got health insurance. Your child,mother,father,sister,brother,wife or husband gets very ill. Death can be averted but you need medical care. Your insurance company makes sure your loved one doesn’t get it. Your loved one dies. Later Mr. Boehner steps to the platform and says that the insurance company did a just thing. Yet, we all know it was murder. Slow emotional and physical murder. That’s violence. Ever notice that Boehner,Cheney,W and Rummy all have the same smirk on their lips?? “Everybody wants to go to heaven—nobody wants to die.” “Everybody’s cryin’ mercy, but they don’t know the meaning of the word.”

  And TY GMONST. Rationality would be, severe campaign finance reform. Stopping the wars. New effective Wall Street restraint. Green energy. An end to corp./govt. controlled revolving door politics. We all know what they are.

    Again, in the last two major elections WE VOTED FOR CHANGE and WE WERE BETRAYED. WE STILL HAVE THE VOTE!! ORGANIZE—TAKE DIRECT ACTION NOW. Remember—”—-War is over—if—you want it.”

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By Tennessee-Socialist, May 25, 2010 at 12:48 pm Link to this comment

By JDmysticDJ, May 25 at 3:17 pm # : Eugenio Costas is very right. Those in this website who call themselves leftists are really progressive-liberals, not leftists. And progressive-liberals are capitalists right-wing pigs not marxists like Eugenio Costas said !!

I hate progressive-liberals.  Progressive-liberals are the main enemy of the US leftist parties


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By Tennessee-Socialist, May 25, 2010 at 12:40 pm Link to this comment

By Wounded and Dangerous, May 25 at 12:19 pm #

I think that the real reason of why the US left is so passive and is scared of fighting is that a large part of the US-left is not real left. But progressive-liberals. While the people protesting in Greece and Europe and Nepal are real marxists, real trotskists and real maoists.

Not the US left. The US left is not leftist really.  Progressive-liberals are not leftists but centrists (Social Democrat Reformists), and according to Social-Democrat Reformists like Nader, Zapatero, Tony Blair, etc. there can be real change without guns, without blood and without fighting.  These Bourgeoise-Reformists like Naomi Klein, Amy Goodman, Ralph Nader are a disgrace to Socialist movements.  They call themselves leftists, but they are not leftists at all. They are centrist-right wingers.

In other words, there are no protests in USA, because the only political sector which could be angry and violent is the left, and there are very few authentic leftists (Marxist-Leninists) in USA.

The majority of US Left Parties are center-right wingers not Marxist-Leninists.  And marxism, trotkism, and leninism strategies are the only ones that can bring a change in USA.  And many in the progressive-liberal movements despise Marx, Lenin and Trotski

They believe in elections, in writting senators, in local identity politics, in isolated issues like abortion, immigration, gay rights, and issues like that. But when it comes to overthrowing the capitalist system, they (The progressive-liberals) hide their heads in the sand.


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By Milton, May 25, 2010 at 12:37 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

If you’re wondering why revolution won’t (thankfully) take hold in the USA, look no further than the moronic offerings by the clearly unemployed and unemployable, mentally challenged commenters here.

As for the Greeks, something tells me absurd pensions, bloated entitlements, and government mismanagement caused their problems, more than the (deservedly) reviled Goldman Sachs.

The Greeks should never have been allowed to join the EU. Anyone who’s ever dined in a coffee shop knows about their temperament and business acumen.

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By last_boy_scout, May 25, 2010 at 12:36 pm Link to this comment

By Inherit The Wind, May 25 at 7:50 am #: if
you are scared of fighting for your rights and
rebellions, i think that what you should do is lift
weights. Weight-training increases testosterone
levels, anger and manly virtues.  I am not scared of
a revolution in the USA, but i think you are.  So
what you need is weight training and a testosterone-

I’m wondering how is the weigh-lifting about to help
you to survive any kind of troubles in your life,
even a street fight, leave alone the revolution?

You’re going to what…frighten the enemies with your
500 pounds deadlift?

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By JOhn, May 25, 2010 at 12:35 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The Greeks (and soon the rest of socialist Europe) finally ran out of other people’s money.  Socialism never works for very long.

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By Tennessee-Socialist, May 25, 2010 at 11:58 am Link to this comment

By Inherit The Wind, May 25 at 7:50 am #: if you are scared of fighting for your rights and rebellions, i think that what you should do is lift weights. Weight-training increases testosterone levels, anger and manly virtues.  I am not scared of a revolution in the USA, but i think you are.  So what you need is weight training and a testosterone-booster


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By CEOUNICOM, May 25, 2010 at 11:17 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

There was a time (maybe it lasted through his very first interview on, “War is a
Force”) when Chris Hedges was taken semi-seriously as a pundit.

I think its safe to say that time is long over.  Not only is this some of the
dumbest, fantasy-laden tripe I’ve ever read since the 9/11 truth movement
came into being - it actually *doesnt even make sense on its own terms*.  Who
the hell thinks banks are going to clean up on Greeks crappy sovereign debt?? 
100s of financial institutions have to be begged to get involved and share the
risk… The whole EU has to bail out their insolvent neighbors…and he calls it
“pillaging”.  I’d call it more like bailing your drunken friend out of jail for the
last time.

If you’re going to criticize international finance, at least do your readers the
service of pretending you even understand the most simple elements of it.

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By JDmysticDJ, May 25, 2010 at 11:17 am Link to this comment

Eugenio Costas

I like to think. I like chess; I’ve spent many, many, pleasant hours studying music theory. I enjoy reading also. Sometimes I’m totally immersed in thought, but I didn’t enjoy rubrics cube, it bored me, I think I only tried it once and I only spent about five seconds on it. I also don’t like pseudo intellectual gibberish that takes 3,000 words to say what could be said in two sentences. I also don’t like listening to Alan Greenspan.

I prefer your comments when they are straight forward and to the point, and I agree with much of what you say, but I find you to be disagreeable.

I once attended a planning meeting to organize resistance to the Viet Nam War. There were a wide variety of people there, including a guy who looked exactly like Fidel Castro, complete with uniform and cigar, but the strangest guy of all, looked like a character straight out of a Russian novel, he was extremely haggard and disheveled, and he carried a pipe made out of a long piece of driftwood. This guy was so strange that the room suddenly got quiet when he came in; people stared at him with their mouths agape, when it came time for him to contribute, he simply said, “I think we ought to kill all the pigs.” I believed then, and I believe now, that the poor guy was mentally deranged.

Your contention that the people on this thread who see violence as counter productive or counter revolutionary, are right wing pigs, indicates that you may be suffering from a mental disorder.

Perhaps your immersion into Marxist theory and 19th century philosophy has caused you to be disconnected from reality, and an obsessive compulsive. Strictly from a laymen’s point of view, I’ll suggest that your frequent couching of trivialities in intellectualism is overly flamboyant, and stems from a lack of security.

I’m just saying…

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By Inherit The Wind, May 25, 2010 at 11:04 am Link to this comment

John Ellis, May 25 at 2:18 pm #

Inherit The Wind

“I find preaching armed insurrection to be
disgusting and indicative of a psychopathic mind.”

Now it all depends on which is the better of two evils.  For Empire USA is the greatest evil the world has ever known, and this pacifist would surely carry stretchers and give blood to any group that was walking in the light and taking us from a greater to a lesser evil.


There are better ways if one is NOT having messianic dreams of armed uprisings of followers in tune with the apocalyptic ravings of St. John the Demented.

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By ofersince72, May 25, 2010 at 10:59 am Link to this comment

Sulfer Trioxide…DuPont Plant

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By last_boy_scout, May 25, 2010 at 10:59 am Link to this comment

By ofersince72

They are enforcing a NO FLY ZONE over the Gulf
so pictures and reporters can’t report a

“They” are probably just trying to secure the free sky area for the flights of those who really need it , i.e. rescue teams, engineers, maintenance crews.

Which, i suppose, is more important than yet another photos like “oh, look the oil spot has spread few more feet to the north. we’re trying to get the comments of the experts on that issue”.

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By chris91, May 25, 2010 at 10:54 am Link to this comment

Greece’s problems came when they decided to use Goldman
Sachs to issue cross-currency swaps, a very complex financial
instrument which allowed them to hide their debt from the rest
of the European Union.  Additionally in Greece the retirement
age is 55 and the ones who work for the government get payed
14 months salary in one year.  To simply make this a black and
white issue were people are good and bankers are evil is over
simplifying the Greek debt crisis.  Furthermore I do not believe
that acts violence and destruction are a legitimate forms of
protest.  Martin Luther King Jr. was able to gain great strides in
civil rights peacefully through acts or protest and civil
disobedience.  I am deeply disappointed that Chris would
approve of the barbaric methods the Greeks are using to further
their cause and suggest that we should do the same.  Americans
are better than that.

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By ofersince72, May 25, 2010 at 10:51 am Link to this comment

Anyone heard about the bad chemical leak in Memphis??
whats going on,, i hear they are evacuatint an
awful lot of people.
Tennessee you close to there? whats goin on?

NO, NO, NO, We don’t need OSHA Republicans !!!!!

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By last_boy_scout, May 25, 2010 at 10:50 am Link to this comment

Eugenio Costa:

>>Where are these bleeding heart “Socialists” and
>>“Progressive Democrats”  when it comes to the mass
>>murder perpetrated around the world by the US?
>>The Greeks get it. So do the Kirghiz. So do the
>>Thai Redshirts. So do the Hondurans. So does
>>Chavez. So does Hedges.

You’re quite wrong about that one. The situation with
Kirghizia was completely different. People’s protest
against the clannish structure of the country where
all profitable positions were divided among
President’s friends and relatives has nothing to do
with the Greek riots.

In Kirghizia mafia-controlled thugs supported the
northern clans in exchange for the access to the
beneficial sectors of economics.

Looters and goons were profiteering on that

Last time I checked the meaning of the term
“revolution” it meant some more dramatic changes in
the society rather than redivision of property
between the competing fractions of political power.

Common folks are the ones left holding the bag as

You may check out this article if you’re interested in the roots of
the Kirghizian uprising.

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By t groan, May 25, 2010 at 10:17 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I wonder if somebody at TD can do something about the proliferation of idiotic comments by, apparently, one individual with too much anger and time on his hands.

Despite his tough talk he cowardly hides behind a pseudonym. What a man!

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By gerard, May 25, 2010 at 10:10 am Link to this comment

The fickleness of this method of communication has now been completely exposed—mostly by one peavish egomaniac.  Too bad.

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By Brian Garst, May 25, 2010 at 10:00 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

What ridiculous stupidity.  The Greek government is bankrupt because of its social welfare policies, and that’s the fault of corporations?  The riots are nothing more than an infantilized society throwing a tantrum because they are being forced to grow up and stop living off the government teat.  It’s as sad as it is pathetic.

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By AMeshiea, May 25, 2010 at 9:58 am Link to this comment

By By Wounded and Dangerous, May 25 at 12:19 pm

“Can you make a revolutionary out of a flock of sheep? Not likely. But, in that flock of sheep might be contained a leader or two who would have the good sense to make use of the sheep and to use them to his advantage. Isn’t this the lesson for us in Animal Farm and of all the other famous revolutions? The sheep will surely become the mob, but this transformation into action will be aided by those whose business it is to control the sheep and to make them move in directions that support their aims.”


Once again from Arendt on both Bolshevik and Nazi early totalitarian movement applicable to today

“Indifference to public affairs, neutrality on political issues, are in themselves no sufficient cause for the rise of totalitarian movements. The competitive and acquisitive society of the bourgeoisie had produced apathy and even hostility towards public life not only, and not even primarily, in the social strata which were exploited and excluded from active participation in the rule of the country, but first of all in its own class….Both the early apathy and the later demand for monopolistic dictatorial direction of the nation in foreign affairs had their roots in a way and a philosophy of life so insistently and exclusively centred on the individual’s success or failure in ruthless competition that a citizen’s duties and responsibilities could only be felt as a needless drain on his limited time and energy.” Ibid Pg 11

Sound familiar. But, I’m new here so I don’t know if this is a typical discussion thread, but looking around here at the comments you can see the problem. It is very much beyond our control (our meaning the assorted collection of varying degree lefties). It also exposes the immense frustration that so many on this board are bickering about things that we cant call primary because the reality is its already escaped us. I don’t want to sound fatalistic but as y ofersince72, said

y ofersince72, May 24 at 9:46 pm #
This debate is at least twenty-five years too late.!!

this debate is being carried on by a bunch of well read
individuals that just woke up politicaly during the
Bush administration.

A little harsh but, there is no possibility of either a velvet revolution, nor an elected alteration to the present course. Not one that can be realistically imagined, which probably explains CH’s darkening mood.

If Arendt’s analysis repeats the worst is yet to come, as the next step after apathy is the wholesale destruction of the economic system resulting in the preliminary dissolution of classes…then…then it gets really bad. Right now the left is timidly holding on to hope within the system. Personally I left the US 8 months after 9-11 after I saw people ranting about homelands. That’s when the jig was up.

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By ofersince72, May 25, 2010 at 9:50 am Link to this comment

They are enforcing a NO FLY ZONE over the Gulf

so pictures and reporters can’t report a


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By darrenTor, May 25, 2010 at 9:47 am Link to this comment

It is exactly true that the Greeks are reacting in all the ways we aren’t.  We are
buying the idea that they are ‘backward’ and ‘lazy’ and that this would never
happen to us.  Well, it’s happening now, and in my home country, Canada, this
is the government’s stated austerity plan for the month’s and years ahead -
cuts to public spending, putting the clapdown on public sector unions, etc…

Thank you Chris, for being bold enough to say that there are sides in this, and
they are being chosen for us: “Do not be afraid of the language of class warfare
—the rich versus the poor, the oligarchs versus the citizens, the capitalists
versus the proletariat. The Greeks, unlike most of us, get it.”

I have put up a bunch of links for further background on the Greek debt crisis:

The Canadian Conservative Harper government is pushing for more of the
same at the G20 meetings in Toronto next month, basically calling for the
populations of the world to pay for the riskiness and criminality of finance.

I love this article, I have sent it everywhere.

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By ofersince72, May 25, 2010 at 9:44 am Link to this comment

They have the National Guard running reporters and
camera crews off coast down in the Gulf,

Can’t even tell the truth about this,,,

and Robert Scheer and Eugene Robinson’s only concern

protect the Democrats.

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By Money is funny, May 25, 2010 at 9:21 am Link to this comment

Eugenio Costa is a fake!

Political psychological warfare online. Online psychotherapy wearing down my
liberal guilt!

Damn you Dick Cheney DAMN YOU!

I know it is you, we will never invade CUBA NEVER!

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By ofersince72, May 25, 2010 at 9:13 am Link to this comment

at the top of this page…for advertising


guess what it is??/

the secret affair between A-Rod and Diez.

there you go America…....interested?

Why is Mr. Costa angry??

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By Anarcissie, May 25, 2010 at 9:08 am Link to this comment

Go Right Young Man, May 25 at 10:51 am:
’... Where I differ most with ITW is in how I will completely, openly and consistently, condemn all violence.  ITW seems a bit more selective in his condemnations.

Simply put:  There are DOZENS of individuals here on TruthDig who openly support the sentiments of Mr. Hedges.  Yet this is daily overlooked. It’s those “other people” who are, as a group, stupid and dangerous.’

Dozens?  I don’t think so.  There are three or four adolescent mentalities ludicrously pretending to be fiery revolutionaries from, as I said, their mother’s basement or the equivalent.  It’s obvious that if they were interested in serious violence, they wouldn’t be broadcasting it on a proggie website for the cops to read.  And there is the usual gaggle of the entirely incoherent.  These people are interested in posturing, so they’re not inconvenienced by evidence or reason, but it does make their contributions a bit tedious after awhile.  It’s certainly nothing to get so excited about: there’s no there there.

And Hedges—well, he’s a bit emotional.  For all we know, next week he’ll hate the Greeks for violating intellectual property laws or betraying an interest in popular culture.  There’s not much there there, either, sad to say.

By the way, when did you become strictly non-violent?  I was under the impression you approved of some war or other.  No?

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By ofersince72, May 25, 2010 at 9:06 am Link to this comment

We have new ones we can blame now,  THE MEXICANS

sure isn’t the American and Mexican governments

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By Eugenio Costa, May 25, 2010 at 9:04 am Link to this comment

January 2002 oil = $19 per barrel

August 2008 oi = $147 per barrel

During that period oil was never in short supply.

With the exception of a few small futures spikes that was not a supply and demand event.

The proof is that as oil went up in USD, USD went down in Euros and some other currencies.

If it had been a supply and demand event, oil would have gone up in both USD and Euros.

That was the collapse of USD, which the Financial Capitalists are still trying to cover up and conceal from you American boobs.

In September 2008 with the collapse of the world economy oil went back to supply and demand.

Since then it has been roughly between $60 and $80 per barrel.

Now put on your thinking caps, little piglets: oil at $19 per barrel in a moderately active economy (2002) contrasted with oil at $60-80 per barrel in a completely collapsed world economy with little demand (2008-10) means what?

Okay, here is another little factoid for you little piglets—every American whose assets are USD has lost at least one third of the value of all holdings since August 2008.

Have a nice day, little piglets.

And keep bailing out those Financials and Banks while criticizing Greek teenagers for knowing what the real target is.

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By Eugenio Costa, May 25, 2010 at 8:48 am Link to this comment

Incidentally, Leo Strauss, the University of Chicago political “philosopher” behind the Neo-Cons like Cheney and Wolfowitz and Perle and such, the directors of Bush’s foreign policy and his religious wars, was, though a Jew, a NAZI sympathizer.

He thought the only thing wrong with the NAZI’s was that they included German Jews in their attempted genocide.

If they hadn’t persecuted Jews, according to Strauss, but just concentrated on Communists and Slavs and Gypsies and such, they would have been fine people, upstanding conservative revolutionists, HAHA.

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By Leefeller, May 25, 2010 at 8:46 am Link to this comment

Hedges soap box has been filibustered, by intentions of what? Surly not for supportive agreement, exchanging ideas? Commandeering Hedges thread for anti agreement, ideas as influenced insult sway opinion? Is it possibly a massive ego?

All I can say is my email is filled up with repetitious regurgitations of posting notifications from the same poster saying the same thing mostly in one sentence sound bits, though I may agree with the premise, the tactic is unacceptable and nothing new, maybe the goal of this planned filibustering is to talk to ones self?

May I wish success to the the tactic for has worked.

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By Eugenio Costa, May 25, 2010 at 8:43 am Link to this comment

To repeat: Leo Strauss’flaw, very Germanic—Athens will never be in the service of Jerusalem.

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By Inherit The Wind, May 25, 2010 at 8:37 am Link to this comment

This is where GRYM and I agree: I DO condemn all violence, dispite his saying otherwise

Where we DISAGREE is as to the FACTS of where violence did and did not occur.  He has not been able to prove it occurred in places he said it occurred.  HYPOTHETICALLY, if it had occurred, I would condemn it (after all, I’m not being nominated to the USSC—I can talk hypotheticals).  I simply dispute his facts.

However, that’s tangential (I’ll leave tangents to the anti-Israel crowd).  I don’t know that CH is demented or anything.  I just think he’s an intellectually lazy Socialist who uses assertions he cannot support in lieu of facts, and THEREFORE reaches totally absurd conclusions.

I find preaching armed insurrection to be disgusting and indicative of a psychopathic mind.

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By Eugenio Costa, May 25, 2010 at 8:36 am Link to this comment

With Kent State and Jackson State and the cold-blooded murder of Fred Hampton in Chicago and the invasion of Cambodia things got really vicious, and at that point the establishment lost its dirty little war.

They were presented with a choice—you can continue this dirty little war and face the total disintegration of American society, including watching your children be shot down by other children in the National Guard, or you can stop this dirty little war on any terms.

That was Americans in the street—real Americans with balls.

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By Wounded and Dangerous, May 25, 2010 at 8:19 am Link to this comment

The call to revolution will most likely go unanswered by the sheep once again.

Most North Americans, and myself included, are of the passive variety. We have been conditioned to perform in the non-violent mode as relates to our political apparatus. We may not like what we see and experience, but there are few revolutionairies among us. The business of being a revolutionary in America is primarlily an intellectual occupation. We, the sheep, are concerned with the business of survival and in maintaining the status quo.

The current turmoil in Greece and in other parts of Europe are mere entertainment for us. They are a different culture and are more prone to civil disobedience than us North Americans. These Europeans are fighting for their status quo as well. The street as their method of discontent is approved by the masses. They are protecting what they have and want to maintain, which, as I stated above, is their status quo.

Why aren’t the Americans in the street protesting their own demise? Surely, revolutionary conditions prevail here as well. But, why no will to fight the oppressors, those who would take away from the masses the things that they have come to know and to enjoy? Can you make a revolutionary out of a flock of sheep? Not likely. But, in that flock of sheep might be contained a leader or two who would have the good sense to make use of the sheep and to use them to his advantage. Isn’t this the lesson for us in Animal Farm and of all the other famous revolutions? The sheep will surely become the mob, but this transformation into action will be aided by those whose business it is to control the sheep and to make them move in directions that support their aims.

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By ofersince72, May 25, 2010 at 8:11 am Link to this comment

The only way Americans are going to straighten our
mess out is to find the source of Mr. Costa’s anger
because there are literaly billions out there with the
same anger and they are not all Muslims either.

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By Eugenio Costa, May 25, 2010 at 8:08 am Link to this comment

“The spectacle is the existing order’s uninterrupted discourse about itself, its laudatory monologue. It is the self-portrait of power in the epoch of its totalitarian management of the conditions of existence. The fetishistic, purely objective appearance of spectacular relations conceals the fact that they are relations among men and classes: a second nature with its fatal laws seems to dominate our environment. But the spectacle is not the necessary product of technical development seen as a natural development. The society of the spectacle is on the contrary the form which chooses its own technical content. If the spectacle, taken in the limited sense of “mass media” which are its most glaring superficial manifestation, seems to invade society as mere equipment, this equipment is in no way neutral but is the very means suited to its total self-movement. If the social needs of the epoch in which such techniques are developed can only be satisfied through their mediation, if the administration of this society and all contact among men can no longer take place except through the intermediary of this power of instantaneous communication, it is because this “communication” is essentially unilateral. The concentration of “communication” is thus an accumulation, in the hands of the existing system’s administration, of the means which allow it to carry on this particular administration. The generalized cleavage of the spectacle is inseparable from the modern State, namely from the general form of cleavage within society, the product of the division of social labor and the organ of class domination.

Separation is the alpha and omega of the spectacle. The institutionalization of the social division of labor, the formation of classes, had given rise to a first sacred contemplation, the mythical order with which every power shrouds itself from the beginning. The sacred has justified the cosmic and ontological order which corresponded to the interests of the masters; it has explained and embellished that which society could not do. Thus all separate power has been spectacular, but the adherence of all to an immobile image only signified the common acceptance of an imaginary prolongation of the poverty of real social activity, still largely felt as a unitary condition. The modern spectacle, on the contrary, expresses what society can do, but in this expression the permitted is absolutely opposed to the possible. The spectacle is the preservation of unconsciousness within the practical change of the conditions of existence. It is its own product, and it has made its own rules: it is a pseudo-sacred entity. It shows what it is: separate power developing in itself, in the growth of productivity by means of the incessant refinement of the division of labor into a parcellization of gestures which are then dominated by the independent movement of machines; and working for an ever-expanding market. All community and all critical sense are dissolved
during this movement in which the forces that could grow by separating are not yet reunited….”

Guy Debord

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By ofersince72, May 25, 2010 at 7:57 am Link to this comment

the pocketbook is the only way the political climate
is going to be turned around, putting pressure on
Capitol Hill and Wall Street to address America’s needs.

That Hedges only response is Boycott Fedex, a business
most Americans don’t even use makes one wonder what
Hedges real purpose is.

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By Eugenio Costa, May 25, 2010 at 7:56 am Link to this comment

That Greek kid in the photo gets it.

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By Eugenio Costa, May 25, 2010 at 7:55 am Link to this comment

The photo with the essay is worth a thousand words.

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By ofersince72, May 25, 2010 at 7:52 am Link to this comment

That is where Hedges falls real short….

He has been leading this charge on Truth Dig for
at least three months now…

His only answer so far >>>>BOYCOTT FEDEX<<<<<<

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By Eugenio Costa, May 25, 2010 at 7:40 am Link to this comment

Herbert Marcuse, Aggressiveness In Advanced Industrial Society:

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By balkas, May 25, 2010 at 7:29 am Link to this comment

In US, seems to me, there are ab one-three mn well-paid people who control all navy, army [private and regular], airforce, spies [private and regular], disinformation-miseducation.

And people who control spies soldiers, disinformers cannot wait for people to get violent.

Violence is only OK after subclasses make cia, fbi, army partly, much or wholy their cia, spies,fbi, and army echelons.

It wld be OK then as the chance of defeating the greatest criminal minds wld be great then.

Still, don’t kill the criminals; make them watch building a new society or a society we must have had millennia ago or preclerico-noble dictatorship over tillers, fishers, hunters, inventors, toolmakers, et al. tnx

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By diman, May 25, 2010 at 7:28 am Link to this comment

We are yet to hear Eugenio Costa’s own opinion instead of continious copy-pasting from different sources. Enough of this pseudo-intellectual crap Eugenio, do you have your own opinion on the matter?

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By Leefeller, May 25, 2010 at 7:17 am Link to this comment

If I speculated on everything and assumed everything else I would be quite the expert on what other people believe, hence the word “you”...... little piglets went to market and went wee wee wee all the way home while posting flyer’s running for office saying the same thing over and over and over!

A fanatic who offers nothing but negative support for a cause most noble only in the fanatics mind. A case for the existence of solipsism in fact a hope for it.

It is amusing, one can agree with most of what an other person says,  only many times the presentation is exceptionally negative and insulting to such a degree, that opposition fosters in the mind and any agreement is lost, so support is not a reality but I suppose that is the point for any number of reasons? Whipping the mob to a frenzy? Counter opinion a capitalist who overly states reality? The GOP playing their usual games? Taking focus off real issues?

Questionably sincere, it seems to me! for presentation is confrontational on purpose seemingly to sway opinion in the opposite direction this little piglet says to the hog!

Bear Doctor I enjoy you posts, but one must do what one feels the need to do! Many time I feel the same.

Time for Tequila!

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By AMeshiea, May 25, 2010 at 7:17 am Link to this comment

y PSmith, May 24 at 9:31 am #

“Wasn’t the received view that Paulson was the anti-
Christ? Not according to Munger who has the highest
personal reputation.
How to reconcile those two opposed views?”

Easy, Berkshire Hathaway bought Goldman Sachs shares while the market was collapsing
while knowing a bailout would progress soon with Ex
GS suckmeister-in-chief Pauslon in charge. Ahh so he would
say that, obviously.

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By ofersince72, May 25, 2010 at 7:16 am Link to this comment


I know the American mindset all to well,
and appreciate you throwing the grim side of
American history to the face of America

I don’t believe Hedges means to storm the Bastille,
nor do I believe 19th and 20th century labels will
arrouse anyone.
I do believe in economic boycotts of a massive scale.

GRYM…. I know why he makes YOU ill.

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By Eugenio Costa, May 25, 2010 at 7:13 am Link to this comment

How many innocent women and children has Obama already killed with his drones?

Is he any less of a murderer than either Bush or Clinton?

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By ofersince72, May 25, 2010 at 7:10 am Link to this comment

Yes Druthers, I take your point well

Frivolous….. It sure is,  mine toooooo.

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By Eugenio Costa, May 25, 2010 at 7:07 am Link to this comment

“The most telling one, and the one which distinguishes the new from the traditional forms, is what I call technological aggression and satisfaction. The phenomenon is quickly described: the act of aggression is physically carried out by a mechanism with a high degree of automatism, of far greater power than the individual human being who sets it in motion, keeps it in motion, and determines its end or target. The most extreme case is the rocket or missile; the most ordinary example the automobile. This means that the energy, the power activated and consummated is the mechanical, electrical, or nuclear energy of “things” rather than the instinctual energy of a human being. Aggression is, as it were, transferred from a subject to an object, or is at least “mediated” by an object, and the target is destroyed by a thing rather than by a person. This change in the relation between human and material energy, and between the physical and mental part of aggression (man becomes the subject and agent of aggression by virtue of his mental rather than physical faculties) must also affect the mental dynamic. I submit a hypothesis which is suggested by the inner logic of the process: with the “delegation” of destruction to a more or less automated thing or group and system of things, the instinctual satisfaction of the human person is “interrupted,” reduced, frustrated, “super-sublimated.” And such frustration makes for repetition and escalation: increasing violence, speed, enlarged scope. At the same time, personal responsibility, conscience, and the sense of guilt is weakened, or rather diffused, displaced from the actual context in which the aggression was committed (i.e. bombing raids), and relocated in a more or less innocuous context (impoliteness, sexual inadequacy, etc.). In this reaction too, the effect is a considerable weakening of the sense of guilt, and the defense (hatred, resentment) is also redirected from the real responsible subject (the commanding officer, the government) to a substitute person: not I as a (morally and physically) acting person did it, but the thing, the machine. The machine: the word suggests that an apparatus consisting of human beings may be substituted for the mechanical apparatus: the bureaucracy, the administration, the party, or organization is the responsible agent; I, the individual person, was only the instrumentality. And an instrument cannot, in any moral sense, be responsible or be in a state of guilt. In this way, another barrier against aggression, which civilization had erected in a long and violent process of discipline is removed. And the expansion of advanced capitalism becomes involved in a fateful psychical dialectic which enters into and propels its economic and political dynamic: the more powerful and “technological” aggression becomes, the less is it apt to satisfy and pacify the primary impulse, and the more it tends toward repetition and escalation.”

Herbert Marcuse

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By zeroinfinity, May 25, 2010 at 7:07 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Oh wait Go Right Young Man! I can give an example of violence the tea party demonstrated in Washington DC.

They littered the White House with tea bags!  Now what would Bush Jr. have done had somebody who was protesting the then upcoming war in Iraq threw trash on the White House lawn?  Hmmmm… grant him much less mercy than right-wing people I would imagine.

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By Go Right Young Man, May 25, 2010 at 6:51 am Link to this comment

There is nothing odd in my agreeing with ITW in this thread.  In fact we agree on much. - Particularly when it comes to Mr. Hedges.

What’s odd to me is how we can so passionately disagree.


Hedges is an excellent case in point.  Here we have another of dozens of individuals on the outer reaches of the, so-called, Left praising and condoning a violent insurrection in the United States. 

Yet this same individual likes to write about the violent and dangerous Tea Party protesters(?). - Not a single individual here, ITW included, has been able to point out even a single example of violence from the Tea party.

Where I differ most with ITW is in how I will completely, openly and consistently, condemn all violence.  ITW seems a bit more selective in his condemnations.

Simply put:  There are DOZENS of individuals here on TruthDig who openly support the sentiments of Mr. Hedges.  Yet this is daily overlooked. It’s those “other people” who are, as a group, stupid and dangerous.


Hedges is one of the most unhinged and out of touch individuals I happen to be aware of these days.  He is far too wrapped up in his own beliefs to see clearly.  He is exactly the type who will throw his full support toward a dictator as long as that dictator agrees with Hedges’ world-view and goals.  Even to the point of mass violence against “unbelievers” or, who he believes, are the criminals of the world.

Crime and violence is OK as long as you’re on the “correct” side.


- Eugenio Costa makes me ill.

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By AMeshiea, May 25, 2010 at 6:44 am Link to this comment

DaveZx3, May 24 at 8:25 am

There is a big difference between war and revolt. It surely would be nice to: “Wake up, take back the government with good, honest short careered, low to moderate income representatives.” But I fear that this may be too late (for now).

The apathy, combined with the despair at what is happening, makes for a bad combination. We are not there yet but, as Arendt writes of the early fascists;

“They elevated cruelty to a major virtue because it contradicted society’s humanitarian and liberal hypocrisy…There was no escape from the daily routine of misery, meekness, frustration, and resentment embellished by a fake culture of educated talk; no conformity to the customs of fairy-tale lands could possibly save them from rising nausea that this combination continuously inspired.” (Part Three of the Origins of Totalitarianism, Harvest Books 1976)

I think that, if anything, what Chris misses is that “we” /the USA is filled with citizens much more interested to rising up in total war (as he expounds on beautifully in War is a Force That Gives US Meaning 2002) rather than in total revolt. We have bred a generation of chaotic haters (tea-party and militias are just the wedge) and despondent and apathetic intellectual lefties. I do wish for progressives to get up and become revolutionaries, I think we have more in common here with the intrawar fascists than liberating rebels. Where Chris is very right is in his prognostication on the economy, it is a ticking time bomb (notwithstanding Inherit The Wind, May 24 at 7:55 am #, myopic market musings). Once the next financial collapse ensues it will be a decade long affair at least and we’ll all be goose stepping or hiding in attics. So Dave, I wish you were right but can you honestly believe that Obama’s nail in the coffin of liberties, will truly allow for a peaceful revolution from within the system? I don’t think so.

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By Eugenio Costa, May 25, 2010 at 6:31 am Link to this comment

Feeling a little claustrophobic, little US Capitalist

Hint: the US is bankrupt and the US Capitalist world empire is over. Kaput. Gone. All over. History. It’s just a matter of time and how much bloodshed you Right Wing Capitalist pigs will continue to foment until you go down for the final count.

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By Eugenio Costa, May 25, 2010 at 6:25 am Link to this comment

Note also that the Chinese Communists now own the US Finance Captialists lock, stock, and barrel.

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By Eugenio Costa, May 25, 2010 at 6:18 am Link to this comment

For you benighted little Born Agains and Christian Socialists, here are some important punctuation marks in modern world history you may want to catch up on:

French Revolution
Mexican Revolution
Russian Revolution
Chinese Communist Revolution
Cuban Revolution

This is just the short list.

More punctuation marks in progress.

Note that the “American Revolution” is not included. Why? Because as the Germans correctly name it, it was not a “revolution” at all—it was a war of indepedence.

More important, note that the US opposed—unsucessfully—every one of those revolutions, includng the French revolution.

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By tp, May 25, 2010 at 6:11 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

By Leefeller, May 24 at 8:22 am #

I don’t see any mistakes in what CH has said. We are running out of time. If exercising our rights to protest is ignored and minimized by the corporate owned media what else is left but violence? A revolution is not out of the question. Our revolutionary war in 1776 was fought because the King George-III denied the colonies the right to print their own currency. The banks of England wanted full control over us through loosening and tightening control of our money supply. In 1913 they finally won the revolutionary war as the Feds, a private cartel of 12 banks with ties to the banks of England, was established after several assignations and a civil war of which they financed both sides until Abe Lincoln printed ‘Green Back’ currency that lead to victory and our industrial revolution and world dominance.
Read “The Web of Debt” by Ellen Brown for details.

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By Anarcissie, May 25, 2010 at 6:09 am Link to this comment

truedigger3, May 25 at 9:39 am:

“I do support and advocate violence, guillotines..”

T-S, That is the dumbest statement that I had read in this thread.  Violence….’

He’s not going to do any violence.  He’s sitting in his mother’s basement blowing off the accumulated steam of unemployment and inaction.

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By Eugenio Costa, May 25, 2010 at 6:08 am Link to this comment

“Remember what happened to Robespierre and his group, including Dr. Guillotine, the inventor of the guillotine?”

Trying to personalize and individualize to fit your agenda, eh?

“Oh, little Greekies, don’t torch the banks that are exploiting you, someone might get hurt!”

Gee, does that mean that the Serbs and Iraqis will soon cover the US in low-level radiation, as the US did to both countries exploding depleted uranium munitions and causing birth defects, miscarriages, and cancer?

You see—using DU IS NUCLEAR WARFARE. Got it?

Are the Vietnamese going to poison the US with Agent Orange and cover the land with mines and unexploded munitions?

You American bourgeois Capitalist Imperialist “non-violence” fakers are one true crock of crap.

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By balkas, May 25, 2010 at 6:05 am Link to this comment

Hello! Any intelligence out there? If there had been some, the people wld have known by now that we have fantacy island and fantacy basement, but not fantacy america, but only a fanciful one.

They wld have also espied that there is no american dream w.o. american nightmare.
Those people who have achieved american dream, control cia, fbi,army,and police while the hired guns [pols-columnists, et al]control words and other symbols.

People, broadly classed, who achieved-inherited american nightmare, still get to enjoy their fantacy basements and all the other fancies; not, of course, fantacy island, cia, fbi, or army!

There appear only to ways for all americans to dream or mare alike or same: forming a second political party or spread a massive education among house and street people! tnx

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By Anarcissie, May 25, 2010 at 6:00 am Link to this comment

Slavoj sits around academic (bourgeois) institutions complaining that no one’s doing anything, and that anarchists have “secret masters” (that is, they don’t listen to him).  What an authority!

‘Anyway everybody expects you
  to give a check to
  tax de-duct-ible cha-ri-ty organiza-tions….’

At least Dylan was funny.

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By truedigger3, May 25, 2010 at 5:39 am Link to this comment

“I do support and advocate violence, guillotines..”


That is the dumbest statement that I had read in this thread.
Violence is very destructive and leaves lingering wounds and pain that is hard to heal, even with the passing of time.
Violence most of the time starts as a “controlled burning”, but eventually turns into uncontrolled raging inferno, that consumes many innocent people and many times,  consumed the people who started it. Remember what happened to Robespierre and his group, including Dr. Guillotine, the inventor of the guillotine??  They all got “guillotined”, in the second phase of the revolution.
Remember what happened to the Russian Revolution excutioners when Stalin’s purges happened. They all got executed.
History is replete with many similar examples, so be careful about what you are wishing for, you yourself, could end up lying flat and the blade is coming down toward your neck.

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By J Reaves, May 25, 2010 at 5:29 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Reading over the comments, I see the same tired claptrap from both left and right. On the left, socialism solves everything (doesn’t really. Humans are too greedy by nature). On the right, name calling but no real counter to what was presented.
In the US, we the people need to use our vote, and use it soon before it is taken away from us. We need to field candidates that are genuinely concerned about the common man. Most Democrats and all Republicans and libertarians do not under any circumstance meet this criteria. The so-called Tea Party is really a front for the right, so no help there. I really don’t know who does, frankly, and that is disturbing. It seems most Americans are doomed to a slow slide into a miserable existence while the wealthy elite move to compounds protected from the rabble by Blackwater.

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By Eugenio Costa, May 25, 2010 at 4:43 am Link to this comment

“If, today, one follows a direct call to act, this act will not be performed in an empty space — it will be an act WITHIN the hegemonic ideological coordinates: those who “really want to do something to help people” get involved in (undoubtedly honorable) exploits like Medecins sans frontiere, Greenpeace, feminist and anti-racist campaigns, which are all not only tolerated, but even supported by the media, even if they seemingly enter the economic territory (say, denouncing and boycotting companies which do not respect ecological conditions or which use child labor) — they are tolerated and supported as long as they do not get too close to a certain limit. This kind of activity provides the perfect example of interpassivity2: of doing things not to achieve something, but to PREVENT from something really happening, really changing. All the frenetic humanitarian, politically correct, etc., activity fits the formula of “Let’s go on changing something all the time so that, globally, things will remain the same!”

Let us take two predominant topics of today’s American radical academia: postcolonial and queer (gay) studies. The problem of postcolonialism is undoubtedly crucial; however, “postcolonial studies” tend to translate it into the multiculturalist problematic of the colonized minorities’ “right to narrate” their victimizing experience, of the power mechanisms which repress “otherness,” so that, at the end of the day, we learn that the root of the postcolonial exploitation is our intolerance towards the Other, and, furthermore, that this intolerance itself is rooted in our intolerance towards the “Stranger in Ourselves,” in our inability to confront what we repressed in and of ourselves — the politico-economic struggle is thus imperceptibly transformed into a pseudo-psychoanalytic drama of the subject unable to confront its inner traumas… The true corruption of the American academia is not primarily financial, it is not only that they are able to buy many European critical intellectuals (myself included — up to a point), but conceptual: notions of the “European” critical theory are imperceptibly translated into the benign universe of the Cultural Studies chic.

My personal experience is that practically all of the “radical” academics silently count on the long-term stability of the American capitalist model, with the secure tenured position as their ultimate professional goal (a surprising number of them even play on the stock market). If there is a thing they are genuinely horrified of, it is a radical shattering of the (relatively) safe life environment of the “symbolic classes” in the developed Western societies. Their excessive Politically Correct zeal when dealing with sexism, racism, Third World sweatshops, etc., is thus ultimately a defense against their own innermost identification, a kind of compulsive ritual whose hidden logic is: “Let’s talk as much as possible about the necessity of a radical change to make it sure that nothing will really change!” Symptomatic is here the journal October: when you ask one of the editors to what the title refers, they will half-confidentially signal that it is, of course, THAT October — in this way, one can indulge in the jargonistic analyses of the modern art, with the hidden assurance that one is somehow retaining the link with the radical revolutionary past… With regard to this radical chic, the first gesture towards the Third Way ideologists and practitioners should be that of praise: they at least play their game in a straight way, and are honest in their acceptance of the global capitalist coordinates, in contrast to the pseudo-radical academic Leftists who adopt towards the Third Way the attitude of utter disdain, while their own radicality ultimately amounts to an empty gesture which obliges no one to anything determinate….”

Slavoj Zizek

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By C.Curtis.Dillon, May 25, 2010 at 4:27 am Link to this comment

Actually, what is happening is Greece is less to do with violence and more to do with coordinated strikes.  We see the violence and are upset but, as is always the case, the MSM only shows what they want us to see.  Anarchists started the fires that killed the bank workers ... not the union demonstrators.  The unions are shutting down the country and I agree 100% with their tactics and complaints.  They and pensioners are being asked to shoulder a problem created by the government and by the wealthy.  The rich pay almost no taxes at all and the government lets them get away with it.  Pensioners are being asked to give up a significant percentage of their pensions (maybe 700 euros/month) while the socialist government has not really gone after the tax dodging wealthy even now.  “It’s too hard” they keep saying but it’s not too hard to throw a few pensioners under the bus over 100 euros/month cut from their pensions.

I am very happy to see the sanctimonious hypocrites all over Europe squirming at the possibility that these protests will spread and destroy the EU.  Germany has been draconian in their suppression of wages so they can become the export monster while the wealthy grow ever rich at the expense of labor.  All over Europe you will find governments in collusion with corporations and the rich ... trying to drive Europe toward the Chinese model which enslaves a large part of their population so the few can grow obscenely rich.

So, I don’t think Hedges is endorsing violence as much as he is pushing the coordinated system of protests and strikes which are bring Greece to its knees.  I would love to see the same thing happen in America ... that is the only way we get our country back.  Strike and refuse to be pushed into slavery!

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By Shenonymous, May 25, 2010 at 4:26 am Link to this comment

Screw yourself Communist slug.

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By Eugenio Costa, May 25, 2010 at 4:24 am Link to this comment

The revolution has begun.

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By Eugenio Costa, May 25, 2010 at 4:15 am Link to this comment

Let’s see the masses of non-violent Socialists in Washington, DC every day, in New York City, choking off Wall street—where are they?

Where is the National Strike?

Where are these bleeding heart “Socialists” and “Progressive Democrats”  when it comes to the mass murder perpetrated around the world by the US?

These are bullshit Corporatist Capitalist Fascists just like most of the Democrats.

The Greeks get it. So do the Kirghiz. So do the Thai Redshirts. So do the Hondurans. So does Chavez. So does Hedges.

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By Shenonymous, May 25, 2010 at 4:11 am Link to this comment

”By Eugenio Costa, May 25 at 8:06 am #
The Capitalists are scared to their bones of the events in Greece.”

No we aren’t.

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By Eugenio Costa, May 25, 2010 at 4:06 am Link to this comment

The Capitalists are scared to their bones of the events in Greece.

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By Shenonymous, May 25, 2010 at 4:03 am Link to this comment

Tennessee-Socialist said May 25 at 2:00 am – ”…or the
violence caused by angry americans against capitalist bankers which
would only lead to maybe 20 to 100 people killed in a violent
revolution against corporate bankers?”

and at May 25 at 12:15 am ” Shenonymous: I do support and
advocate violence, guillotines and bloody revolution against the
Monopoly-Capitalist class who think that all US citizens are scared of
them. I am fucking tired of capitalism, let’s fix this problem really easy
and quick Bolshevik and French Revolution style without any debates. I
hate debating, debating is a waste of time and is for wussies, what we
need is will power, guillotine for bankers and lots of anger and

Are you calling for violence against the United States Tennessee-
?  It sure looks like it to me.

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By Druthers, May 25, 2010 at 3:53 am Link to this comment

By ofersince72,

Your idea of “feeling good” by commenting seems frivolous.
The concern that one has for the world that we are destroying and leaving to our children has little to make us “feel good.”
Perhaps just before WWI there was also the perception of impending doom, the idea that a world known, familiar though unjust, was on the brink of disappearing - and disappear it did.  Today the collapse we see coming is even more fearful as it appears to be a slow suffocation of the aspirations that mankind has carefully stored for thousands of years, of knowledge so painfully acquired that is now withering away as a sort of suicidal spiral against which we are frantically battling renders us like ambulating zombies.

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By Inherit The Wind, May 25, 2010 at 3:50 am Link to this comment

JDmysticDJ, May 25 at 1:45 am #

Eugenio Costas

Your unapologetic response to the deaths of bank employees puts you in the same category as those you claim moral authority over.

Your advocacy of violence bears a striking resemblance to those who eagerly sign up for war at the beginning of hostilities and disparage those who oppose war.

Those that oppose war and violence are always disparaged at the beginning of hostilities, but are seen as prescient, by all but the most fanatical, after the hostilities have run their bloody course.

Im certain that “Milquetoast” would be more palatable than human flesh.

You’re passion would be more productive, if it were applied to advocating for more constructive, realistic, and potentially successful actions.

Che didn’t bring socialism to Bolivia, Evo Morales did.

It’s rare for me to agree with JDMysticDJ, but this is one of those cases.  (I’m not sure Evo Morales has brought Socialism to Bolivia but he’s done more for that nation’s progress than Che ever did).

T-S advocates violent revolution, “People’s Tribunals”, guillotines, in short all the trappings of the French, Russian, Chinese and Iranian revolutions.  Yeah shooting the “bad guys” is fun until they shoot your uncle ‘cuz they HEARD a guy they shot walked into his store.  And it also stops being fun when personal scores start being settled in the name of “The Revolution”, when people inform on their neighbors for tellin’ ‘em to turn down the music at 2am.

Yeah, that’s what happens with summary tribunals.  Why the HELL do you think everyone here opposes the Military Commissions Act and the Bush-imposed tribunals that don’t allow exculpatory evidence because it’s “secret”? Nor does it allow accusatory heresay evidence to be challenged.  You think “Peoples’ Tribunals” will be even as fair and just as the kangaroo MCA courts?

Get real!

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By thebeerdoctor, May 25, 2010 at 3:34 am Link to this comment

After reading or shall I say, a diligent perusal of the posted comments, I must say I am somewhat ashamed that my name is associated with this site.
There is only one question that remains: How to disassociate myself from this ridiculously stupid Truthdig? As the late Jimi Hendrix once said: “Oh there ain’t no life nowhere here”.

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By archivesDave, May 25, 2010 at 3:06 am Link to this comment

projectcamelot org website for Jim Marrs.

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By archivesDave, May 25, 2010 at 3:00 am Link to this comment

One other excellent resource to go to is the Jim
Marrs interview, ‘The Fourth Reich’, which you will
find by going to

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By ofersince72, May 25, 2010 at 2:11 am Link to this comment

we can “feel real good”  about ourselves though,

we comment every week on Cris Hedges columne

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By ofersince72, May 25, 2010 at 2:07 am Link to this comment

and it is the intellectual America that has no
understanding of his anger.

keep pointing that finger out America !!!

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By ofersince72, May 25, 2010 at 1:57 am Link to this comment

We have troops, spy sats., war planes, war ships
military bases, three or four active wars going on,
occupations, covertly destabilizing many governments,
in order that we live the life style we live,
  the world’s by far number one debtor nation
living on of the world’s most leiszure lifstyles

and indignant American’s can’t understand Eugenio’s

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By Shenonymous, May 25, 2010 at 1:42 am Link to this comment

Leefeller you are in impeccable form!  “The Whining Revolution!” 
If I could, I’d send you some tequila and granola bars!  But they might
be harmful to your 3 x 3 size.  Oh well, what the hell… the rabid
Communists want to take over the world…. again.  ITW, can we
stop them?  Would you please be Le Generale, and Leefeller and I
can sit in lounge chairs and drink tequila and eat granola bars, and
watch, then if you need something done, he and I can argue, toss a
coin, then the winner does the job.  Or is it the loser?  Whatever…
I can’t think of anything better to do about this financial problem!  Well
roly-poly Leefeller has the Great Unyun to help so you have a
great and dedicated, if motley, and small, army.  A bit drunk at times
butz sheesh whash da’hell-ishh?

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By archivesDave, May 25, 2010 at 12:16 am Link to this comment

I’m certain there are ways but I’ve lost faith since most people are totally glued to their escapist TV soaps, eye candy, mainstream media pap and swill.
World events are now escalating almost exponentially
and if we duplicate what’s now occurring in Great Britain, our privacy and sovereignty will soon disappear dramatically. Blogs such as this may only be allowed for a couple more years before ‘big bro’ comes down with a heavy hand. 
Also take a look at the way people are viciously
attacking each other’s character.  It reminds me of
a bunch of commiserating drunks when one of them
bolts and tries to sober up.  Most of them do everything they can to pull him back into the fold.  And this is an escalating phenomenon…

United we stand, divided we FALL…And we are more divided today in a multitude of ways than we ever were in the Sixties.
I just don’t understand those masochists who just bitch and moan about what they know is coming w/o making serious preparations.

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By First Theory, Then Practice, May 24, 2010 at 11:50 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I would like to be brief, if I may, understanding that there is much more to be said on this subject.  First, yes, of course violence is always a serious matter.  Each human being is precious, and a life once lost is gone forever.  But it seems to me that those of you insisting that violence must “always” be “avoided” are deliberately blind to the immense violence that our way of life has created and has directed towards hundreds of millions, nay, billions, of faceless people.  Moreover, I will go so far as to say that you will NOT see it until you are forced to.  You’ll deny it, find some rationalization, attack the messenger, simply disbelieve it, turn your head (casually and lazily), etc.

If you believe that violence must be avoided, then I assume you always take public transportation, wouldn’t dream of driving an SUV or van with fewer than six people aboard, have your same-sex children share bedrooms, rarely if ever eat animals, rarely if ever watch television, and refuse to “upgrade” your electronic devices without good reason (and are careful to recycle them when you absolutely must get a new one), as this planned obsolescence is creating immense pollution all over the world.  Among other things.

Americans are 5% of the world’s population.  American who live relatively well (the top two quintiles, or roughly 40%) are 2% of the world’s population.  A little reflection will reveal to you that we are creating violence for remaining 98% in just about everything we do these days.

If “austerity measures” are then forced upon this 98% in favor of preserving the absurd excesses of the remaining 2%, and if the 2% repeatedly and adamantly REFUSE TO LISTEN, who, exactly, is the perpetrator of violence?  At what point does it become self-defense?


You know that isn’t an answer.  That is an evasion.

The real irony (tragedy?) here is that Chris Hedges is a decent person who believes in an essentially Christian morality, and he has seen war and written extensively in favor of peace.  Perhaps it would be wise to listen more closely to what Hedges has to say, because if you ignore him, the next person in line who is ready to “tell” you won’t be nearly as charitable, well-intentioned, or decent.

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By Heretic, May 24, 2010 at 10:42 pm Link to this comment

Tennessee Socialist,

Do you honestly believe that the violence perpetrated on a few parasitical bankers will stop after several of them are murdered?  When we begin to group people into us and them categories we create a situation in which fanaticism reigns.  The trends within the Conservative Tea Party movement within our country are already demonizing various groups/organizations (Big Government, Wall Street, Progressives, Mexicans, Muslims) for the failure of our corporate state.  I simply fear that this kind of violence will not solve our issues.  We as a society must reclaim the idea of community and the concept of loving our neighbors.  Abandoning these virtues is what created our economic/social failures in the first place and if we abandon them we again, “become the dragon.”  If fanatics are allowed to cling to the drug of violence it may be you or I who become the enemy. I acknowledge and wholeheartedly condemn the brutality that this country has perpetrated around the world, but I tend to believe that, “those who live by the sword perish by the sword.”  I would urge you and others to consider a more hesitant radicalism which embraces the idea that war and violence should not be considered until all of the agencies of peace have been considered.


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By archivesDave, May 24, 2010 at 10:23 pm Link to this comment

The best u can do right now is to look up the clips, on Dr Joseph Farrell, especially his Project Camelot interview- the last half hr especially.  I plan to get his new book called ‘Babylon’s Banksters’ which has a lot of updated material on current events in Germany/Europe as well as short and long term projections for America and Asia I believe.
I note that David Icke is now backpedaling on his earlier dire 2012 warnings and protracting them
out to 2015 or so.

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By Tennessee-Socialist, May 24, 2010 at 10:19 pm Link to this comment



This song, this intolerance that Maynard James Keenan feels is being predominantly directed at the US Imperialist Capitalist class (the army being linked to the Imperialists of course.) It is today evident that the capitalist class in most countries, particularly America are responsible for murder(war), lying to the public perpetually as a way of surviving, cheating( look at the last 2 Bush’s elections and stealing, creaping towards health care, invading countries and plundering and certainly manipulating the economics in the world to Americas advantage. All these actions are being shrouded by virtue and people still sing and praise their glory

Maynard is saying that even though he like all of us tries to stay in line(and we have to whether we like it or not) he will not tolerate these people who lie, cheat and steal. The way in which he defies what he disagrees with is through his music and everyday choices. The very fact that this song exists is a such a great benefit for all those interested in it. Refering to “no one is innocent” , i think this can be put in context when we look at the mentallity of the capitalist imperialists and the military who believe because of their status and “nessesity” that they are innocent.

I think maynard is trying to say that we are all capable of doing bad things however the capitalists and the military are the only ones who are not subject to the same punishment that we all are. They create the laws but do not obide them and he in his own way will not tolerate this, whether he can do anything about it is another story. But writing a song like this is a bloody good start.

Lastly,if you choose to interpret this as intolerance of an individual, you need to remember that the predominant focus of Maynerd;s self expression is being human and being part of humanity. I think we should interpret it both ways and leave the possibilty open, as we can learn how to make choices based on personal relationships, as well as views on the capitalist system.


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By Tennessee-Socialist, May 24, 2010 at 10:00 pm Link to this comment

By Heretic, May 25 at 1:00 am # : What do you think is more violent? The violence of 50 million people killed by US Military in all of its invasions and wars of aggressions against people of this world (including the latest criminal wars on Iraq, Afhganistan and Pakistan, the 4000 inocent people of the false-flag staged-terror of 9-11?) or the violence caused by angry americans against capitalist bankers which would only lead to maybe 20 to 100 people killed in a violent revolution against corporate bankers?


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By JDmysticDJ, May 24, 2010 at 9:45 pm Link to this comment

Eugenio Costas  

Your unapologetic response to the deaths of bank employees puts you in the same category as those you claim moral authority over.

Your advocacy of violence bears a striking resemblance to those who eagerly sign up for war at the beginning of hostilities and disparage those who oppose war.

Those that oppose war and violence are always disparaged at the beginning of hostilities, but are seen as prescient, by all but the most fanatical, after the hostilities have run their bloody course.

Im certain that “Milquetoast” would be more palatable than human flesh.

You’re passion would be more productive, if it were applied to advocating for more constructive, realistic, and potentially successful actions.

Che didn’t bring socialism to Bolivia, Evo Morales did.

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By Darren, May 24, 2010 at 9:44 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Wow, these are exactly my feelings on the protests and I have been sending
this article all over the place.  They have been inspirational in their ability to
clearly know which side they are on and to, in large numbers, struggle against
austerity and the loss of their futures.

I especially like this characterization: “the rich versus the poor, the oligarchs
versus the citizens, the capitalists versus the proletariat. The Greeks, unlike
most of us, get it.”

The G20 is coming to my town (Toronto) next month, and this is exactly what
the host Canadian government is pushing both at home and abroad - to have
the populations pay for the mistakes of financial capital through government
spending cuts and breaking public sector unions.

I have put together a bunch of links on the Greek crisis on my G20 website:

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By Money is funny, May 24, 2010 at 9:32 pm Link to this comment

i.e. Leefeller

“Can I get my Espresso at Starbucks before you guys start the damn revolution”

O.K. just one and then it is on.

I just went outside with a stick. Where were you guys.

hearhe hearhe: dismantle the universities and extend the level and quality of education available to all people in our public education system.

Or maybe we should just sit around and watch people who are desperate for college push poor people around in foreign countries on You tube.

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By Tennessee-Socialist, May 24, 2010 at 9:23 pm Link to this comment

ArchiveDave: I think that there are ways to wage electoral-revolutions without much violence, and barbarism.  However i am a depressive-realist, what i mean is that i also acknowledge that the US Oligarchic-class (5% Monopoly Capitalist class) has a vast amount of military police power in USA, they own the white house, the congress, the supreme court, the CIA, FBI, the Armed Forces. etc. they own the electoral department of USA. so I don’t really know how can we beat this monster.

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By Heretic, May 24, 2010 at 9:00 pm Link to this comment

Mr. Hedges,

Thank you for contributing to Truthdig.  I have read and appreciate your articles and your books.  As I read your articles I become worried about the state of our country and our planet.  I wonder though, if supporting the violence in Greece is wise.  Angry people tend to do rash things.  I know several people have already been killed in Greece.  Are there not more peaceful and efficient means of rebelling?  What about organizing mass tax revolts and financial boycotts?  What if large groups of citizens refused to participate in the economy that exploits the average person by creating local sustainable economies?  I have just finished an introductory study of the French Revolution and I am reminded that often times revolutions inspire people to “become the dragon.”  I do not trust the angry masses to make wise and moderate decisions.  I believe that the average American is simply a smaller version of the avaricious CEO that exploits this country for his own benefit.  That may be cynical, but the average person’s lust for more seems to, in my humble opinion, to be just as rapacious as those with all the power and money.  What do you think?  I would really like you to respond to my questions.  It would be great if you had an email address so that we could ask you questions more directly.  Thank you for your time. 


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By Tim, May 24, 2010 at 8:58 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Eugenio Costa,

Nobody listens to you because you display the characteristics of the unwelcomed pirahna. You sense blood in the water, and you go stir crazy. I’d appreciate it if you minimized the amount of your posts drastically. Just saying, so I don’t have to sift so hard to find sane arguments.

Thanks, Tim

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