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They Knew They Were Right

They Knew They Were Right

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No Other Way Out

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Posted on Feb 28, 2011
Flickr / WxMom / CindyH Photography (CC-BY-SA)

The state Capitol in Madison, Wis.

By Chris Hedges

(Page 2)

There will be veterans in the park who carry with them physical and emotional wounds of great magnitude, who remain crippled by the dead hand of war, who never sleep well, who struggle in the black pit of depression and with post-traumatic stress disorder, and who will bear the cross that war inflicted upon them until the end of their days. They will have surmounted tremendous psychic and physical pain to make it to Lafayette Park, to defy what they know must be defied. And if they can walk their trail of tears to the White House so can you. They are our wounded healers, our disregarded prophets.

Hugh Thompson, a helicopter pilot who while flying saw the killings of unarmed Vietnamese civilians in what later became known as the My Lai massacre, landed in the village during the slaughter. He spotted a group of about 10 civilians, including children, running toward a homemade bomb shelter. Soldiers from the 2nd Platoon, C Company, were chasing the civilians. Thompson, dismounting from the cockpit, put himself between the civilians and the soldiers. He ordered his gunner to open fire on the Americans if they began to shoot the villagers or him. Later, Thompson, who crusaded for justice after then-Maj. Colin Powell led the official whitewash of My Lai, received death threats. Mutilated animals were tossed on his doorstep. He was unsung for decades and forgotten until shortly before his death in 2006. He exhibited real courage, moral courage, the kind of courage the state detests, the kind of courage for which they do not mint medals.

Bradley Manning, who allegedly downloaded thousands of documents and videos that confirmed war crimes by U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and passed them on to WikiLeaks, is being held in a military brig in Quantico, Va. He has been kept in solitary confinement for 23 hours a day and denied exercise, a pillow or sheets for the last nine months. His prolonged isolation is designed to break him physically and psychologically. There will be a protest outside Quantico on March 20 in support of Manning, another soldier from another war whom Thompson would have understood.

The documents published by WikiLeaks detailed for the world the widespread use of torture by Iraqi and Afghan security forces and the silent complicity of Washington. They confirmed that civilians, including children, are routinely murdered by occupation forces and that the killings are not investigated. The documents lifted the veil on our undeclared, black war in Pakistan, including drone strikes that have killed more than 900 civilians in Pakistan since Barack Obama took office. They shed light on the gross corruption, drug trafficking and crimes committed by the Afghan president as well as the reign of terror carried out by the Afghan National Army. These documents confirm that huge numbers of Iraqi civilians have been killed by U.S. troops at checkpoints, and that since the invasion tens of thousands of civilians have died as a result of the war. These documents illustrate in page after page that our government makes no effort to protect liberty, democracy or human rights, but instead prefers crude and brutal mechanisms of power.

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The Obama administration, which has proved as efficient in serving the war machine and the corporate state as the Bush administration did, is attempting to destroy not only Manning but WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange. The state seeks to silence anyone who practices moral courage. It does not want the truth heard. It does not want the reality seen. If these forces of war and greed triumph, and we do not, there will be darkness. But if on March 19 there is at least one person willing to defy the state, to demand justice at the cost of his or her freedom, there will be a flame held to light the way for us all.


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By Steve E, March 3, 2011 at 1:38 pm Link to this comment

Another thread taken hostage by the battling intellects. No wonder the progressives
are screwed.

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By Steve E, March 3, 2011 at 1:37 pm Link to this comment

Another thread taken hostage by the battling intellects. No wonder the progrssives
are screwed.

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By drbhelthi, March 3, 2011 at 1:21 pm Link to this comment

“ - your questions have been asked for many years by conservative Christians like me…” 
“- Will you provide us with a provisional answer to one or all the questions, which we can use as a starting point, an ice breaker? Everyone will critique it like crazy but thats what a provisional answer is for.  If nothing else, the process will clarify your own thoughts.  (OzarkMichael, March 3 at 7:23 am)

>- - CLARIFY YOUR OWN THOUGHTS< ?
Obviously, “conservative Christians like me,” whoever they are, continue to ask the same questions, suggesting that they have not found satisfactory answers.  Perhaps, the reason for which one of them now attempts to assign others the responsibility. It might be wiser for the confused “conservative Christians like me” to clarify their own thoughts and questions, instead of attempting to direct others to do it for them. Does anyone remember Jim and his vat of coolade ? Here, you drink this while I watch. It is rumoured that “stepping outside the box” provides enlightenment. Outside the box, chasing ones own tale is sometimes apparent. For some. For others, not.

Running to the front of a crowd and shouting “follow me” is not a new technique. Genuine finesse was demonstrated by Adolf Hitler.  An Austrian, with questionable status among “his own folk,” infiltrated the alpine region of Bavaria, seduced the Bavarians, next, the remainder of Germany. FOR THEIR OWN BETTERMENT, of course.  A dictator assuming leadership and directing “others” to do his bidding is the problem that the world has suffered from, historically.

This problem was intensified for Americans when the WWII NAZI entourage transferred their H.Q. from Berlin to D.C., Ft. Bliss, and Huntsville, beginning formally with the first iteration of Operation Paper Clip, 1945, and subsequently, overtaking the C.I.A.  For approx. thirty years, George H.W. Bush Sr. headed the steering committee of the C.I.A., SECRETIVELY. Until F.B.I. agents revealed his secret in the 1980s. Obviously, he or his junior, now shares the chair with zionist-types. 

Available information indicates that the last body-guard of Adolf Hitler, SS NAZI Lieutenant Colonel Otto Skorzeny, revealed accurate information in his pre-deathbed revelation of WWII NAZI documents, kept in his favorite shoe-box. (while living comfortably in Florida, with falsified identification via the C.I.A.)  http://www.proliberty.com/observer/20070405.htm  Americans are slowly catching on, while Germans and Europeans are swifter.  Numerous insiders have revealed the sordid, destructive history of the C.I.A. around the world. It has been summarized by Congressman Dr. Ron Paul, et.al. The GHWBushSr entourage and converting the USA to nazism, with assistance of Israeli zionists, is where we are now. While colonizing oil-rich countries in the Mid East, by genociding the indigenous. Perhaps a distraction.

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By kulu, March 3, 2011 at 12:58 pm Link to this comment

Raylan,

One small step - changing your registration to the Greens - but a necessary one as part of the fight back that should be approached on all fronts.

Leefeller,

If you can’t make it to Washington to join CH perhaps you can get the 11 others who stood with you in protesting the Iraq invasion to stand with you again wherever you are; armed with a banner or two of course.

The Egyptian revolt began with a small number of persistent(and brave) protesters who regularly faced off the police in Tahrir Sq before the thing took off. It might be a bit embarrassing at first with just a group of activists holding up silly banners but it could end up being the nucleus of a larger movement.

Here in West Australia where the citizenry is pathetically apathetic I do my best to attend rallies for any worthy cause of which there are plenty. I do it now partly just to make up the numbers which are seldom more than a hundred or so but I do it also because I know doing nothing is not an option I can live with.

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By DavidByron, March 3, 2011 at 12:44 pm Link to this comment

gerard:
“A question is raised here that is seldom discussed but of vital importance:  Is it ever okay to disobey the law?”

Actually it is not raised here because it is a crime to do what US soldiers regularly do both under US law and international law.  US soldiers are criminals for what they do.  They would not be criminals if they refused their unlawful orders as the US law and Military law requires of them.

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By DavidByron, March 3, 2011 at 12:39 pm Link to this comment

This is a more reasonable response by David J Cyr.

“Soldiers who aren’t changed by war… are sociopaths. But those who are changed by their military experience… are not sociopaths. They are humans who have hard discovered a difficult decency in themselves that most Americans haven’t… and won’t.”

First of all I cut the usual litany of excuses for soldiers that all progressives throw out there.  The fact is that even young children are judged to have the ability to judge between right and wrong on an issue of life and death.  American soldiers know that killing is wrong.  They know what they are doing is wrong and that if it happened to them or their families it would be a great evil.

They don’t have to discover it, they know it before going in.  They also, as you point out, quickly find it out on the job yet the number who quit or refuse criminal orders while on the job is miniscule.

Unfortunately this doesn’t make them sociopaths but I agree with the sentiment.  It does make them criminals.  It does make them murderers and genocidaires.  If you kill someone they are dead and you murdered them whether you feel bad about it or not.  If you are part of an army of occupation and genocide then you are guilty of those crimes even if you never fire a single shot.

To all those Pwoggies who demand that the US soldiers are simply misinformed about the nature of being a soldier, the question is so why don’t you correctly inform them?  But on the contrary Pwoggies always say soldiers are innocent heroes and thereby demand that soldiers are not guilty of their crimes.  By helping to spread this government propaganda they enable the warmongers. 

I on the other hand tell young men that if they join the army, or did join it, they are criminals and thugs.  They are not heroes but very literally baby killers.  people who kill babies—and millions of other innocents—for money.

We must fight back against the government propaganda and the propaganda of the right that ridiculously says soldiers are good people and that “we” owe them for their “sacrifice”, or that they “protect our freedoms” whereas the exact opposite is true.  Condemnation MUST come first or there can be no legitimate forgiveness for any of these people.

They must be taught that their actions were shameful and vile—not heroic or misinformed.

The progressive so-called anti-war movement does the exact opposite.  They lend their credibility to the notion that veterans a re somehow moral people—even more moral than non-veterans in fact.  Exactly the opposite is true.  Helping to murder millions of defenseless people does not make you a moral person.

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By DavidByron, March 3, 2011 at 12:23 pm Link to this comment

Psychobabbler,
“No you are not wrong. You are just an asshole”

I’ll prefer that characterisation to being someone who has committed genocide and then seeks to defend that experience as somehow heroic or at best guiltless.

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By Anarcissie, March 3, 2011 at 11:09 am Link to this comment

First of all, one would have to justify the right or power of some to make laws for others.

In other words, before we can discuss whether it is all right to break a law, we need to discuss whether it is all right to make a law.

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By plainsman, March 3, 2011 at 10:41 am Link to this comment

Don’t forget the unwritten law: Might is right!.

Quibbling though this may be taken to be, this discussion changed course slightly with the reference to Gandhi opposing unjust laws. Inserting (paraphrasing badly) the word “bad” for unjust alters the meaning of the original comment and the gist of Gandhi’s approach. Of course the question then becomes unjust to whom?

It seems to me an unjust law is one that favours one group over another; a law that endorses slavery is a case in point. So too is a law—like the new food laws which are about to be implemented—that makes life easier for an abusive, non-sustainable system of food production and harder for an animal friendly, sustainable method of food production. Codex Alimentarius is another such collection of laws. One that will give unimpeded power to big pharma and put holistic producers of health food products and simple (but beneficial) vitamins out of business.

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By Leefeller, March 3, 2011 at 10:21 am Link to this comment

Evidently there are many different kinds of law. There is Global law,  international law, Admiralty law aviation law business law, bankruptcy law civil rights law corporate law and my favorite Lucy lawless!

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By David J. Cyr, March 3, 2011 at 10:01 am Link to this comment

QUOTE (gerard, asking 14 questions):

“Is it ever okay to disobey the law?  Is there such a thing as a bad law that must be disobeyed?  What is conscientious objection? What needs to be considered in connection with conscientious objection to bad laws?  Is it a defense to simply say “I did it with my little hatchet because the law says that’s what I’m supposed to do?”  Why do some people choose to disobey laws they consider bad?  Who is qualified to say they are bad?  What are the mechanisms in a democracy that permit disobedience of bad laws?  Who will defend those who disobey?  What happens if nobody defends them?  Could war be stopped simply by widespread refusal to obey the laws that support war?  What, currently, is the price of disobeying bad laws?  Is there need for some change in the standard answers to this question? Why is this question so seldom discussed?”
____________
Some perhaps non-“standard” answers:

1) Yes.
2) Yes.
3) Following your conscience, when ordered not to.
4) Conscience directed actions can result in prison, or death. The more conscientious a person is the greater their punishment is likely to be.
5) No.
6) For many reasons, dependent upon what the disobedient consider right and wrong to be. One person’s morality is another’s immorality.
7) Anyone, but anyone can be either right or wrong about that.
8) Batons, Mace, Tasers, rubber bullets, fines and incarceration, in lieu of summary execution.
9) Few, if any.
10) The disobedient are either allowed to go home, or they disappear for years… or forever.
11) Yes, but that won’t happen in America, a nation that regularly provides 99% popular vote corporate (R) & (D) party mandates for perpetual war.
12) The price ranges widely, from a small fine at the low end to death at the high end.
13) That depends upon whose answers are “standard” and whom is judging how “standard” they are.
14) Because a person is only truly serious about being completely conscientious when they decide that today is a good day to die.

The questions you are struggling with are similar to those debated in the “Just War” philosophical arguments.

If you do harm to someone or some thing to end a harm to others, then the harm you do should not be greater than the harm you end. Caveat: Your harm done may not end the harm you opposed; it might only add to it.

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By BarbieQue, March 3, 2011 at 2:24 am Link to this comment

gerard: you raise excellent points, as always.

2 random questions for you:

1. If you lived during slavery, and you learned one of your best friends was running a waystation on the underground railroad would you have

Turned him/her in

Ignored her/him and his/her illegal activities

or helped?

And

2. If you were fighting America’s Revolution alongside the Honorable George Washington, and you had a son, would you have instructed your son to shoot to kill the Brits as they stormed through the land?

Your questions go to the essence of not only the Constitution and Declaration of Independence (which was itself illegal), but of morality itself.

And it appears there are no easy answers. I know one thing, sometimes the law is an ass. But you’re right, who decides.

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By OzarkMichael, March 3, 2011 at 2:23 am Link to this comment

gerard said: “Is it ever okay to disobey the law?  Is there such a thing as a bad law that must be disobeyed?  What is conscientious objection? What needs to be considered in connection with conscientious objection to bad laws?  Is it a defense to simply say “I did it with my little hatchet because the law says that’s what I’m supposed to do?”  Why do some people choose to disobey laws they consider bad?  Who is qualified to say they are bad?  What are the mechanisms in a democracy that permit disobedience of bad laws?  Who will defend those who disobey?  What happens if nobody defends them?  Could war be stopped simply by widespread refusal to obey the laws that support war?  What, currently, is the price of disobeying bad laws?  Is there need for some change in the standard answers to this question? Why is this question so seldom discussed?

gerard, those questions are very important. You would be surprised to know that your questions have been asked for many years by conservative Christians like me… although some of the laws that I dislike are ones you might not mind at all. Dont be surprised that i am interested in your answers.

The answers could create a general theory regarding the right to disobey a bad law, or even the right to revolt. It would, by necessity, touch upon the purpose of government… its powers and limitations, and the rights of citizens as well as our responsibilities.

Can you keep your eye on the your specific grievance but keep the theory itself as broad and general as possible in order to fit any/all grievances?(including mine which are not the same as yours?)

In other words, the general theory should be one we all agree with, even though we would apply it to different particular cases, and perhaps have different thresholds to action. If I am not being clear just ask me to explain it better.

We could put our heads together and agree to some principles that apply to us all (as Americans) but we could try to make it make it global if someone outside the USA is participating.

First, do we all feel safe to say exactly what we think? If anyone doesnt, then that is an unfair disadvantage for them in this conversation. Hmm., gerard that might answer your question about why this isnt discussed. But in my opinion we are talking historically and theoretically so its quite safe.

Second, can we do this politely and with some respect for the each other?  If there is a troll in the room we will need to /ignore him. But that isnt what i mean… i am wondering if the rest of us can show some respect and actually listen to each other.

If you are interested lets do this slowly, and no rush. Will you provide us with a provisional answer to one or all the questions, which we can use as a starting point, an ice breaker? Everyone will critique it like crazy but thats what a provisional answer is for.

If nothing else, the process will clarify your own thoughts.

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By RayLan, March 3, 2011 at 12:32 am Link to this comment

if there were a draft, the wars would end.

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By Psychobabbler, March 3, 2011 at 12:21 am Link to this comment

Amen to David.

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By gerard, March 3, 2011 at 12:18 am Link to this comment

A question is raised here that is seldom discussed but of vital importance:  Is it ever okay to disobey the law?  Is there such a thing as a bad law that must be disobeyed?  What is conscientious objection? What needs to be considered in connection with conscientious objection to bad laws?  Is it a defense to simply say “I did it with my little hatchet because the law says that’s what I’m supposed to do?”  Why do some people choose to disobey laws they consider bad?  Who is qualified to say they are bad?  What are the mechanisms in a democracy that permit disobedience of bad laws?  Who will defend those who disobey?  What happens if nobody defends them?  Could war be stopped simply by widespread refusal to obey the laws that support war?  What, currently, is the price of disobeying bad laws?  Is there need for some change in the standard answers to this question? Why is this question so seldom discussed?

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By David J. Cyr, March 3, 2011 at 12:13 am Link to this comment

Imagine that you were born somewhere in the Bible-Belt, say Oklahoma; your father was a veteran; you were small and bullied because of it; your parents divorced when you were 13 and then struggling with the inconvenient truth that you were gay and your father couldn’t and wouldn’t accept that (you were repulsive to him). Imagine that although you were a smart tech-savvy kid you couldn’t get a job worth having… couldn’t get a job that wasn’t a humiliation. Imagine you were so depressed with your circumstance that you succumbed to the glamorous propaganda of the military/entertainment industry’s advertising; the seduction of the economic draft; the seduction of college tuition; the seduction of full room and board and cost-free full medical coverage; and the seduction of belonging in the company of “real” men.

Is Bradley Manning a sociopath?

America’s military has a perpetually sociopathic mission that’s regularly popular mandated by 99% of America’s voters.

Soldiers who aren’t changed by war, who retire proud to have participated in wars of aggression waged for corporate profits against poor people living over rich resources are sociopaths. But those who are changed by their military experience, who then resist within the military, or later work against the continuum of those wars of aggression, are not sociopaths. They are humans who have hard discovered a difficult decency in themselves that most Americans haven’t… and won’t.

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By RayLan, March 2, 2011 at 11:05 pm Link to this comment

It’s a volunteer army—- those who implictly by their participation condone these atrocities - I have trouble feeling sorry for them. Absolutist blind patriotism demands that we defend their cause -  I don’t hear Chris Hedges sympathizing terribly for the recruits and their patriotic cause but the innocent civilians wounded and killed by them.

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By lewis McGregor, March 2, 2011 at 10:42 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

i’ve been looking for a war protest to join.
i’d be in D.C. Mar.19… except i’m committed to our camp-a-thon to benefit the
homeless teens in our county.  see the Where Do I go Now facebook page.
thank you to Chris and the truthdiggers

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By Anarcissie, March 2, 2011 at 10:12 pm Link to this comment

zagostino—Looking at history, I think looking for a great leader to change things in any significant way is a long shot.  First of all, I think one of our problems is the monarchical approach to politics, where most of the people support or elect someone and then expect the happy candidate to do all the work.  But also, if an individual pops up who threatens the ruling class, they will probably eliminate or neutralize her or him—they have been pretty good at that.

However, I think everyone should follow their inspiration.  We can try different strategies.  If you think running Bernie Sanders for president is going to be effective, now is the time to be organizing that effort.

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By ardee, March 2, 2011 at 9:51 pm Link to this comment

David J. Cyr, March 2 at 4:33 pm Link to this comment

QUOTE (of ardee the avatar motorcycle):

“We see that the power of the people is evident in Egypt, in Tunisia, in Libya and can it not be the same here?”
_______________

Yes We Could… if we could first have 30 years of Obama.

Mr. Cyr practices his stand up comedy routine. But I do applaud this unusual bit of insight from him. Obama causes so much angst in two and a half years one might only conjecture that 30 years would bring many thousands to the streets for sure.

Perhaps this might be one reason we see such passivity from a nation born in revolution, the feeling that however awful our current leader might be, that leader is only temporary? Sadly we seem to be trending in one direction only, regardless of who leads.

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By denise, March 2, 2011 at 9:22 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

9 children were killed in Afghanistan a day or so ago,
mistaken for terrorists - they were collecting wood.

http://www.cnas.org/blogs/abumuqawama/2011/03/nine-
afghan-boys.html

The military industrial complex must be restrained.

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By zagostino, March 2, 2011 at 9:22 pm Link to this comment

There is a sane voice in our government that people
could actually rally around. It wouldn’t be the
hollow echo of an Obama-brand type politician. I am
thinking Bernie Sanders; he is someone people on
the Left could coalesce around…

Rather than rail against the machine in little felt
or noticed individual acts of defiance, an
organized approach, one that got behind Bernie
Sanders, escalating him to National Prominence, in
the fashion of an Upton Sinclair 1934 CA governor’s
race, well, that might actually put some fear in
the ruling elite and garner some meaningful
changes.


http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2011/03/02/sand
ers-dont-balance-budget-on-the-backs-of-the-middle-
class-the-poor-the-children-and-the-elderly/

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By Psychobabbler, March 2, 2011 at 7:23 pm Link to this comment

Sometimes when a person stubbornly expresses a very provocative opinion, you
just have to say what The Dude said in The Big Lebowski.

“No you are not wrong. You are just an asshole”

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By Leefeller, March 2, 2011 at 7:20 pm Link to this comment

Anicissie, me suspensions also! Seems to be going around.

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By Anarcissie, March 2, 2011 at 7:10 pm Link to this comment

I think many of you are being trolled.

Just a sneaking suspicion.

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By Leefeller, March 2, 2011 at 6:27 pm Link to this comment

Whenever someone holds a bigoted and irrational position, and in this case perhaps, supported by an attempt to never face their own guilty past, but rather excuse it, they find they can’t logically debate their views but despite this inadequacy, have a deep emotional need to attack/respond to anyone who questions those views

Me thinks the kettle has just called the kettle black while looking in the mirror?

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By DavidByron, March 2, 2011 at 6:14 pm Link to this comment

Leefeller: nothing but more flame.

Whenever someone holds a bigoted and irrational position, and in this case perhaps, supported by an attempt to never face their own guilty past, but rather excuse it, they find they can’t logically debate their views but despite this inadequacy, have a deep emotional need to attack/respond to anyone who questions those views.  This explains your entire comment.

I feel no such need to make content-free posts to respond to you, so if you want a reply next time say something that addresses the issue.

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By DavidByron, March 2, 2011 at 6:02 pm Link to this comment

It’s this sort of knee-jerk bullshit “must defend the troops” at all costs attitude that perpetuates wars.  You need to wake the fuck up about this evil propaganda.  Instead it is repeated with little to no thought.  Pro-war sympathies can never be question among Progressives and that’s why Progressives as a whole are essentially pro-war in the effect they have on society.

“There’s nothing that can more deeply and effectively educate a miseducated misdirected young person than”

Excuse my language, but WHAT THE FUCK???  Did you just attempt to justify genocide by saying it makes a good educational tool??  Seriously???

Sorry your entire family had their skin burned off but little Johnny here learned a valuable lesson from it.  Except of course he didn’t because little Johnny carries right on “just following orders” and when he comes marching home again is hailed as some sort of hero.

In fact if you want to educate those soldiers morally (and other young men thinking of signing up) you must tell them directly that what they are doing is pure evil.  Instead Progressives ACTIVELY participate in the miseducation of the youth by parroting the state propaganda of how heroic “our troops” are.

The state calls them heroes because it knows that making the soldiers appear as a positive moral image will make war possible.  Progressives lie to themselves and say calling the troops heroes will not have that effect. 

“the brutality of the harshest realities that they confront, as expendable soldiers participating in wars for corporate profit”

Another lie for the corporate state.  Expendable, my ass.  Indeed in large part the reason for the extremely high rate of killing civilians by US soldiers is the doctrine that US soldiers lives must be protected at all costs.  Of course that’s not because they care for the useful killer idiots, but because they concluded that US casualties can cause anti-war sentiment.

Certainly it is an unpleasant as well as evil job but it is disgraceful to talk about dangers to the hired thugs when millions of real innocent victims are begin killed.

“while faith-based believing they were going off to fight to defend freedoms and democracy”

What evidence is there that US soldiers are that stupid?  This is just another excuse Progressives make to defend their knee-jerk support of hired thugs, and hence of the war time killings those thugs are paid to enact.

You don’t get off a murder charge because you had “faith” that you were doing the right thing—even if it actually was true.  But it is not.  The prevailing attitude of US soldiers is one of racism to the people they know they are paid to murder and oppress.  And how can it be any other way when you are a thug?  Of necessity you must dismiss the very humanity of your victims or what does that make you?

I doubt many had any such “faith” (or naivety) as they signed up but if any did it would be knocked out of them very quickly indeed.

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By Leefeller, March 2, 2011 at 5:43 pm Link to this comment

“Yeah whatever.” Says it all DavidByron!  I so insulted the messenger?  Wish you well in your peace movement, it seems to be be going quite well?

OM; I really believe he may be one of urine, just in the way he is so certain and right in those pontificates?

Though I find this distasteful   I also do find it slightly amusing;

“Conservatives are liars, cheats, crooks and racists.”  followed by ” I have nothing to say to you.” (after which he wrote something which may be construed as nothing to say?

DavidByron after possibly taking a shallow breath and whiping the spittle off his fingers finished by writing;

“I will only point out you misrepresented what I said”

One thing about the printed word DavidByron, it is there for all to see; “DavidByron wrote the following, at least I believe it was he?, .......“PSTD?  It’s called a guilty conscience I would say.” 

Yes, I can feel the peace in the air as you DavidByron, have single handily rallied the support of millions of American citizens to convict their own sons and daughters, sisters and brothers as guilty as charged. Such a great feat and a feather in DBs cap, certainly one of the greatest irrational absolutists, I have ever seen after GRYM!

My wheels are always turning JB, just not down certainty street!.... “Yeah whatever.”

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By David J. Cyr, March 2, 2011 at 4:59 pm Link to this comment

There’s nothing that can more deeply and effectively educate a miseducated misdirected young person than the brutality of the harshest realities that they confront, as expendable soldiers participating in wars for corporate profit that they entered while faith-based believing they were going off to fight to defend freedoms and democracy that they later learn they don’t actually possess to defend.

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By katsteevns, March 2, 2011 at 4:59 pm Link to this comment

Chris Hedges - The man who brings you the full truth, not the sloppy half truths of elite policy makers who serve themselves or only a small portion of their constituency. Half truths make those who disseminate them appear legitimate and believable. All of the truth, all of the time does not work to the advantage of those who’s desire is for power or control of the populous.
  That being said, Chris Hedges gives us mountains of truth compared to many in government. He encourages those who will hear him to be a bulwark against injustice and oppression, and to do so nonviolently and selflessly, even to the point of great personal loss. He is a hero of the Left Wing and many wish to be like him in word and deed.
  But, the question begs, does he give us the whole truth as HE knows it. Does he tell us ALL he knows about truth, or just simply half of it? And if he reveals just half, we must ask why. And is he then not the same in character as those elites who do the same for personal gain?
  Chris Hedges just happens to be a Christian and has studied religion for many years. He knows the bible through and through. That being said, he also knows the future of the world as his God has explained it in the books of the New Testament and that life for mankind will get much worse before it gets better, much worse.
  But has he told us that? He may mention it occasionally in his books and lectures, but not nearly with as much magnitude that he tells us to press on in the fight for freedom and justice in a nonviolent manor.
  Truth be told, according to Chris Hedges’ religion, nearly every single human soul that will ever live will have to suffer and die and be judged by God before any semblance of true freedom will ever be achieved.
Additionally, the Messiah, God’s son will have to return and defeat Satan. Chris’ god has stated that man can not, on his own, overcome the evil in the world.
  So, why then is Chris Hedges tirelessly working to encourage mankind to struggle for justice, but at the same time, omitting the crucial aforementioned part of the equation, that all men must first stand in judgment before God prior to being set free?
  I don’t know why. Does Chris feel that man is not ready to hear the whole truth? And how does he know what man is able to hear or to not hear? Did someone inform him of as much? Chris’ god says that God alone and those who He appoints can make the deaf to hear and the blind to see. By what authority, then, does Chris move to open people’s eyes or ears by way of his efforts?

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By DavidByron, March 2, 2011 at 4:18 pm Link to this comment

Leefeller you are having a hard time explaining your apparent support for genocide so you decided to attack the messenger.  Yeah whatever. 

The fact remains that in Iraq and in Vietnam, which you brought up, not me, genocide was committed by the US soldiers which Hedges accurately described in his article as hired thugs.

Millions of people were brutally murdered by the US soldiers of a period of many years. 

And yet you seek to deny the guilt of these people?  Now you can carry on insulting me all day but that won’t change a single fact, will it?  That won’t bring back a single dead victim of those US wars of genocide.  That won’t make a single US soldier who participated, innocent of the charges against them.

“Gee I helped to kill millions of people but it’s all good because I was told to.  Just following the orders of my evil and corrupt government.  It’s their fault not mine.”

That is the justification used by the Nazis that was rejected at Nuremberg as we all know.  So please explain why they were culpable for their actions but you were not for yours?  Was it perhaps that the average Nazi soldier was free to disobey a criminal order whereas the US soldiers are put before a firing squad for disobeying a criminal order?

Oh wait.  That’s the other way around.

Go on then.  Explain to me why active and voluntary direct participation in a conspiracy to murder millions of people is A-OK.

I can already see the cogs turning in your head on that one and probably you will try to shift the blame to someone else for your own crimes and guilt.  Of course you will.  What veteran would not?  And that is why the verterans for peace movement is an oxymoron like fucking for chastity.

Its clear in as much as you are an example that the veterans “for peace” don’t even cop to their own guilt in these wars.

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By DavidByron, March 2, 2011 at 4:03 pm Link to this comment

OzarkMichael:

Conservatives are liars, cheats, crooks and racists.  I have nothing to say to you.  I will only point out you misrepresented what I said (duh - you’re a conservative).

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By Psychobabbler, March 2, 2011 at 3:56 pm Link to this comment

It’s the best non-violent weapon for peace when veterans share their experiences.

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By Leefeller, March 2, 2011 at 3:13 pm Link to this comment

DavidByron, lumping and stereotyping with absolutist certainty, is something I refuse to buy into. Your opinon offered with such certainty as portrayed by your self appointed indignations, does very little in the cause of peace, rather seemingly alienates any potential support. ....... Is that the plan? 

Hired thugs, killers and elite actually best describes the Republican agenda, enabled by the Democrats, now this is my opinion.

Stereotypes are for morons, but not with DavidByronthe opinionated certainty. Now, I think we are getting somewhere don’t you? ......Swaying other peoples opinions by using insults has never worked for me,..... maybe I have not done it right?

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By OzarkMichael, March 2, 2011 at 3:10 pm Link to this comment

As a conservative, I observe that one sad thing about liberals is that you guys are too nice to the far left ass holes, like DavidByron.

You are trying to reason with him but you will get nowhere. You ought to have called me on the phone and asked me to help. It takes a conservative to think clearly and ask the right questions.

What DavidBryon will not discuss is that people have suffered from PTSD not only when they fight far from home, but also when they fight to defend their own home. Experts figure that PTSD has been around as long as there has been fighting. It doesnt matter where or why the fighting is happening.

But DavidBryon says of PTSD: “It’s called a guilty conscience I would say.”

Now will the bigmouth DavidBryon explain why people defending their very own village, their very own house, ought to “feel guilty” about it?

Come on big talking asshole DavidByron, answer that question.

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By DavidByron, March 2, 2011 at 2:38 pm Link to this comment

Self fucking righteous?

Well if you mean by self-righteous that I have not committed genocide recently then yes, I guess I am.  That doesn’t seem to be a very high bar to me but apparently to you it is.

So lets examine your own moral history here.  I was talking about Iraq of course, where all the soldiers were volunteers and fought for money pure and simple, but you decided to stink yourself up for examination.

So I guess the first question is whether you went to Vietnam to help commit genocide there, because of the money or because you were forced to by the draft system?  Were you drafted or were you a volunteer for the pay?

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By gerard, March 2, 2011 at 2:06 pm Link to this comment

David Byron:  You can lead a horse to water….

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By Leefeller, March 2, 2011 at 1:37 pm Link to this comment

DavidByron, Never looked at myself as a hired killer or a thug since I am a Vietnam vet, though I do not agree with your myopic interpretation of service people .I may agree with you in a hope and a preference for peace.  From my experiences, I am well aware of the blatant wrongs of war,  especially sponsored by our felonious great nation. Guess my being against going into Iraq from the beginning and having questions about Afghanistan, should have been spent chastising myself for having been both a thug and hired killer?

Seemingly self righteousnesses has little credence in reality, for such portrayed indignations seems self serving in some way and may serve the war hawks in a sideways move?

I suspect from your pov, the Libyans should not accept any support from their own Libyans military?

After reflection, I guess it is better that I cannot afford to attend Hedges so called Peace rally, otherwise I would feel my shame of being a hired killer in public!

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By David J. Cyr, March 2, 2011 at 1:20 pm Link to this comment

QUOTE (of RayLan, the avatar coin):

“Not suprising that the Right wants to do away with the Department of Education.”
_____________

Actually, the dispute over the Department of Education is between factions within the Right, fighting over whom can best Right mold the malleable minds of children.

The Right’s narrow-minded conservatives generally prefer closer parental control of their children’s development of opinions, while the much more “enlightened” Right’s liberals prefer a more centralized mind-control… provided Democrats have control of the curriculum and the teachers’ unions.

It’s the lobotomization of the population that 12+ years of mind-modifying corporate state controlled public school incarceration produces that reliably provides those 99% popular vote mandates for the corporate (R) & (D) party’s candidates.

The reinforcing subtleties in the “higher” education system provide an even greater assurance that the “educated” will be uneducable; wholly incapable of critical thinking, or of changing their beliefs, even when experientially confronted with positive proofs that the beliefs they “learned” as children are false. People who lifelong advocate for Democrats best demonstrate the elimination of cognitive capacity that America’s “education” system successfully produces.

“Give me a child for for his first seven years and I’ll give you the man”
— Jesuit motto

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By DavidByron, March 2, 2011 at 12:47 pm Link to this comment

gerard again defends the elites’ thugs and hired killers:
“May I refer you to the Iraq Veterans Against War.  Chris Hedges knows them well and has spoken to their meetings.  Many of them are suffering from PTSD and related injuries and traumas.”

Good.  They should be arrested and put on charges for murder for what they all did in Iraq.  Genocidal assholes.  How about saying something about what these bastards did to the real victims—the millions of Iraqis they murdered over twenty years?

PSTD?  It’s called a guilty conscience I would say. 

Any so-called peace movement that puts former and in large part unapologetic murderers front and center is self-defeating at best, helping the warmongers at worst.

No I admit even murderous genocidaires deserve some human sympathy but it seems to me they have more than enough sympathy for themselves to cover that.  I’ll keep mine for the families of their victims.

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By RayLan, March 2, 2011 at 12:23 pm Link to this comment

The Koch Bros, The Goldman Sachs , British Pet, Citibank, AgriBusiness, are the true leaders.
Capitalism let loose is NOT freedom - as the phrase ‘free enterprise’ might suggest - it is enslavement to imperialist greed.

Adolf Hitler’s memorable statements on the subject of bovine masses -

“What good fortune for governments that the people do not think.”

“Universal education is the most corroding and disintegrating poison that liberalism has ever invented for its own destruction.”

Not suprising that the Right wants to do away with the Department of Education.

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By Leefeller, March 2, 2011 at 12:19 pm Link to this comment

kenfreedomrings, Koch Brothres and Fox news support of the Tea Party seems a bit like mucking up the works for the hell of it?  Obviously they do not support Unions or the right of collective bargaining.

I may support some of the same ideas the Koch Brothers seem to be financing, like free air except at the corporate gas station, anyway the air I breath is free for now. !Me feelers say I should be skeptical of Koch Brothers over all intent, even though I know they have my best interests at heat!

Well now,  after all; the Supremes have proclaimed the Koch Brothers like General Electric are people too. Maybe I need to lighten up?  But I will always wonder what is hidden behind the curtain?

Manipulations never cease! I am like the typical anti Union slob on the street, I do not have lots of money like those Koch Brothers, so in my book, no one should have lots of money! For me lots of money is anything over a hundred dollars in the bank at any one time.

I feel so bad, for the Koch Brothers, they know what is best for me, and I do not appreciate it!... Well I need to get going now,.... need to stop by the bank and pull out that hundred dollars, then head over to the gas station to buy half a tank of gas,  don’t want to be late for my part time non union job at Wal Mart.

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By kulturcritic, March 2, 2011 at 11:46 am Link to this comment

It is quite probable, given the advanced state of our national/global disease, that there is no real hope for the restoration of sanity on a political or grand scale.  But there may be a chance personally to recollect what was lost, and reclaim one’s genetic birthright. 

http://www.amazon.com/Recovery-Ecstasy-Notebooks-Siberia/dp/1439227365

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By kenfreedomrings, March 2, 2011 at 11:37 am Link to this comment

My previous post on the Koch brothers was in reaction to the incessant posts by the Left to paint them as right wing reactionaries. Nothing could be further from the truth. I got the post from this web address:

http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/frrth/stop_the_koch_brothers_they_are_trying_to_end_the/

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By David J. Cyr, March 2, 2011 at 11:33 am Link to this comment

QUOTE (of ardee the avatar motorcycle):

“We see that the power of the people is evident in Egypt, in Tunisia, in Libya and can it not be the same here?”
_______________

Yes We Could… if we could first have 30 years of Obama.

Nothing more easily sustains a fascist state than frequent changes in its nominal leaders does.

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By Anarcissie, March 2, 2011 at 11:31 am Link to this comment

kenfreedomrings—I don’t have a full list of the works and donations of the Koch brothers, but from what I can observe they evidence the same incoherence about political issues the rest of the American Right does, even those who describe themselves as ‘libertarians’.  The Cato Institute, for instance, takes a classical-liberal approach on many issues, but suddenly forgets itself when it comes to ‘Right To Work’ laws, which are an obvious and gross violation of the essential rights of expression, association, assembly and contract.  This seems particularly relevant to the current struggle in Wisconsin.  Note also that Ran Paul, who had spoken against the endless imperial wars the U.S. is engaged in, was called to heel by Tea Party darling Sarah Palin.  Evidently he was found to be an excessively consistent libertarian.

Libertarianism can be what it claims to be, in which case it will be consistent on the issues, or it can be a front for corporate power, in which case we will see curious lapses of the type I mention.  Where are the Koches in this?

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By Anarcissie, March 2, 2011 at 10:33 am Link to this comment

Moaning and groaning about how everything is hopeless is the other side of the coin of shouting ‘Amen, brother’ and giving oneself a hot bloggist’s bath of moral rectitude.

People not interested in remaining on their butts forever might like Gene Sharp’s list of 198 methods of non-violent action.

Warning:  Gene Sharp is not God and his works are not scripture.  He is merely someone with some ideas some of you might find useful, especially when the everything-is-too-awful mode grows wearisome.  Or you might want to criticize them and suggest something better.

http://www.aeinstein.org/organizationsde07.html
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Gene_Sharp
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Gene_Sharp

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By kenfreedomrings, March 2, 2011 at 10:33 am Link to this comment

The KOCH brothers must be stopped. They gave $40K to Scott Walker, the MAX allowed by state law. That’s small potatoes compared to the $100+ million they give to other organizations. These organizations will terrify you. If the anti-union thing weren’t enough, here are bigger and better reasons to stop the evil Kochs. They are trying to:
decriminalize drugs,
legalize gay marriage,
repeal the Patriot Act,
end the police state,
cut defense spending.

Who hates the police? Only the criminals using drugs, amirite? We need the Patriot Act to allow government to go through our emails and tap our phones to catch people who smoke marijuana and put them in prison. Oh, it’s also good for terrorists.

Wikipedia shows Koch Family Foundations supporting causes like:
CATO Institute
Reason Foundation
cancer research ($150 million to M.I.T. - STOP THEM! KEEP CANCER ALIVE!)
ballet (because seriously: FUCK. THAT. SHIT.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch_Family_Foundations

The Kochs basically give a TON of money (millions of dollars) to the CATO Institute. Scott Walker, $40K? HAH! These CATO people are the REAL problem. They want to end the War on Drugs. Insane, right? We know that the War on Drugs keeps us SAFE from Mexicans and keeps all that violence on their side of the fence. More than 30,000 Mexicans killed as of December! Thank God Mexican lives don’t count as human lives. Our government is doing a good, no, a great job protecting us and seriously, who cares about brown people or should I say non-people? HAHAHA! Public unions are good, government is good, and government protects us from drugs and brown people. The Kochs want to end all that. Look, as far back as 1989 CATO has been trying to decriminalize drugs. Don’t worry, nobody listens to them because they are INSANE.

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=981

CATO also rejects the Patriot Act. How can you hate the Patriot Act? Are you not American? They made it easy for you to understand by putting the word “Patriot” in the legislation. That means you should vote YES. Giving up our civil liberties is not a big deal. We need our government. Whether it’s Obama or Bush, we can all agree that the TSA is really good at what they do. God, those patdowns feel SOOOO good.

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=10599

The Kochs also support Reason Foundation. You don’t know about that? Let me tell you. Basically, REASON Foundation is a bunch of cop haters. Last month, they did a “news” (as if we wanna know!) story on three cops that beat up an unarmed black kid. In the aftermath, the cops were suspended, sat around doing nothing and got paid (like that’s a bad thing!). I don’t know about you, but that puts a smile on my face for four reasons:
I hate black people,
I love the police,
I love it when police beat up black people for no reason,
I love that it comes out of taxpayers’ money, because it’s not like it’s really my money.

The Kochs are trying to end this. The Kochs must be stopped.

http://reason.com/archives/2011/01/24/a-beating-in-pittsburgh

CATO trying to cut defense spending:

http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/how-to-cut-military-spending/

Gay marriage. YUCK. That’s just obvious. If the KOCH Brothers have their way, there will be homos getting married left and right. Here’s another scary thought: gays raising children.

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6379

Here are some videos from Glenn Greenwald, one of those “gays.” He writes for the liberal Salon.com, but don’t let that fool you. He’s in the Koch Brothers’ pocket. Here are some videos to prove my point:

Here’s Glenn Greenwald talking about drug-decriminalization at REASON:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjuvXdqKM0M&feature=related

Yeah, he’s that Glenn Greenwald that also defends WikiLeaks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XInz4i6AV8M

If there’s one thing I know about billionaires, it’s that they only care about money. Bill Gates, Warren Buffet.

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By ardee, March 2, 2011 at 8:58 am Link to this comment

By Seabeck65, March 2 at 12:11 am Link to this comment


I think that too many on this blog are overly optimistic. I doubt that Americans have the energy or drive to break from the routines of daily lives to take the courageous actions necessary to stop what our Government and ruling elites are doing in our name. They are too busy trying to make ends meet in an economy where decent jobs are vanishing in the race to the bottom and too complacently satisfied by our media-entertainment complex. It is Rome before Augustus; it is Weimar before the Third Reich. It is time to retreat to the garden.

While I do acknowledge the gist of your remarks I must take issue with the pessimism you display. Optimism is a necessity and its absence negates any chance of actual forward progress. We desperately need to progress here in the USA thus we should be encouraging action rather than posting that which discourages.

We see that the power of the people is evident in Egypt, in Tunisia, in Libya and can it not be the same here?
Dontcha think?

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By Steve Miller, March 2, 2011 at 7:34 am Link to this comment

Flailing ideas instead of focusing on the diagnosis and the one sure remedy will never work.  Elect a 3rd party.  The automatic response is always—they will become corrupt too.  That is the ridiculous excuse to not act sensibly. 

America is doomed by the trance designed and implemented by propaganda.  Chris Hedges is in the same trance that the rest of you are in.

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By Steve Miller, March 2, 2011 at 7:25 am Link to this comment

Wars, terrorism, and the military is the product of fear and the threat of being called a traitor or unpatriotic that allows trillions of dollars to be ripped off from our Treasury.

Americans are beyond stupid morons, they are in a trance that can’t be measured.  America went off the cliff when the entire banking system was destroyed by MBAs who are allowed to commit fraud and outright gamble the deposits.

Americans need to be insulted.  They are insulated from insults by the culture of “political correctness”.  USA—United Stooges of America

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By Bill Cantrell, March 2, 2011 at 3:30 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

For the most part, it appears that the people posting
comments, are both foolish and ignorant individuals
that have been lost from their beginnings. ( too much
dope in their immature minds, kept them stupid a lifetime) You people do not matter, your views are
unreal, and you all are living in a dream state.
Collectively, if you could all live together, independent from the rest of the world, you would all
die, because you have no abilities that tend to life.
You just know how to tell others what to do and how to dispose of what they produce. That is soon to end!

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By Anonymous, March 2, 2011 at 2:33 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Keep blogging and talking to each other -

Communication and understanding is the key.

I’ve read through the postings. We are all in different situations no doubt, and outside of this country
even more different situations are present.

Yes this sounds corny. But until now, we have not been able to really read/understand what we feel
should be happening with our government as the issues arise each day. As we move into the future
communication between us will become faster. Issues and actions taking place will become known to
all more rapidly.

We will be able to weigh in on these things, and those who are instigating/authoring the action
and/or oppression will have to answer our inquiries.

Human empathy is rising up now. Faster communications is helping us understand and bringing our
most original trait to the top (where it should be)

Keep alive compassion and understanding: If nothing else, cultivating compassion and
understanding will keep you from falling into arrogance, cynicism, and depression that may come
with knowing about the negative aspects of this existence. Un-pleasant truths should not be
ignored, but understood fully in context of a bigger picture. This can be trained in every- day
situations that would otherwise provoke bitter, vengeful, en-vious, contemptuous thoughts.

Little by little it is possible to change our world into one of empathy and understanding.
Unfortunately, the bad actions and those whom live in fear of what the future may or not bring will
impose their will upon our present, and people will be killed, hurt, and emotionally damaged. I’m not
stating here anything your not already aware of.

It will take time. And I mean hundreds of years. Stay on guard - to the grave. Lead by example and in
time others will join us and seek peace together. Year after year it will slowly change. Keep truth at
the top of your list.

The beginning of the war will be secret.

Die fast and quiet when they interrogate you - or - live so long that they are ashamed to hurt you
anymore.

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By igloo, March 1, 2011 at 11:29 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Cut social security, cut health care cut anything but the almighty military which is dragging the country into bankruptcy faster than anything else.  The majority will go thru life parroting the same values which brought about the demise of other empires, tunnel vision, self righteousness, greed, arrogance and exceptionalism. The only thing unexceptional about it is that like other empires of yore this one will never see the truth before it goes under.

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By Anarcissie, March 1, 2011 at 11:28 pm Link to this comment

margbb—If there were enough people interested in a serious tax revolt, they wouldn’t need a tax revolt—they could just elect a government that did what they wanted.  Or they could pressure the government with a general strike.

Some people (including some who have posted in this discussion, I believe) have suggested withdrawing from the economic system to whatever degree is possible.  This is a lot easier for some people than others, obviously.

Another possibility is doing the groundwork to set up alternative financial institutions.  For instance, there are networks of people who use labor hours, or representations thereof, as a kind of currency.  This follows the old IWW slogan of “building a new world in the shell of the old.”

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By kulturcritic, March 1, 2011 at 10:24 pm Link to this comment

Seabreak65 - US citizens are completed absorbed in the Spectacle their system has perfected over the last 300 years.  We are the heirs to 6,000 years of civilization that has defined the ‘dumbing down’ of the populace as much as it has destroyed the planet and its inhabitants in the process.  This is the extent of the violence that has been perpetrated against all peoples and nature.  Americans have been most severely debilitated by this violence because their system has been most efficient in realizing its objectives.  Language is the tool, the sword, that has been so effectively used, and we are deluded to think all these words mean something.  The American Dream is an elaborate ponzi scheme, to steal from the globe so that a few may play like gods.  The case we now face is almost hopeless.  The damage has been done to flora, fauna, and the biosphere.  And our species, under the guise of civilization, has played the leading role.  The curtain falls!

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By plainsman, March 1, 2011 at 8:50 pm Link to this comment

Leefeller

Junk

If you need a screwdriver, buy the best one you can afford. The cheap ones (junk) will lose their edge(s) after a few uses and you’ll have to buy another one.

All the paraphernalia that people get for other people, like throw away Christmas gifts and Valentine’s Day trinkets and and and ...

Store bought greeting cards for all and every occasion. Millions upon millions of trees are harvested every year just for this purpose. Gift wrap too!

There is so much stuff out there that is nothing more than some merchant’s way to pick your pocket.

Most of the “work” that passes for Art in art-for-sale galleries.

Kitsch of all kinds.

Michael Jackson recordings.

figurative junk

Politicians’ platitudes.

Statements like, “Too big to fail.”

That there is a two party system in US politics.

——————————-

You replanted your lawn to Native?

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By fearnotruth, March 1, 2011 at 8:07 pm Link to this comment

RE: To do nothing, to refuse to act, to be passive, is to be an agent of injustice…

agreed; and at the center of it all is the event about which many have worked hard to
expose and so many more have done literally nothing, in particular so many leading
so-called ‘left-liberal progressive’ voices

the 9/11 coup d’etat is the lynchpin to the entire complex of aggression
commonly known as The Global War Of Terror

overwhelming evidence, supporting 9/11 as the most heinous false-flag provocation
of modern times, is still largely unacknowledged by the Left Gatekeepers (indeed,
often demeened)... but understood, as their publishing/lecturing/foundation-
funding ‘3rd rail’, voicing conceptual agreement is literally career-ending

their safe position is ‘blow back / incompetence’ - critical but safe -
have so many forgotten Joe McCarthy’s little ‘reign of terror’?

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By margbb, March 1, 2011 at 7:26 pm Link to this comment

To Seabeck65
Well all you say maybe true, the fact that teaparty members have more than enough time despite their woe is me complaints, to continue to be dumb and politically active at the same time; which begs the point that if the statusquo isn’t tolerable then the energy and will just has to be found or the eventual losses on all levels will effect more and reversal could be as elusive as dealing with climate change! Or do you know something I don’t?

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By Seabeck65, March 1, 2011 at 7:11 pm Link to this comment

I think that too many on this blog are overly optimistic. I doubt that Americans have the energy or drive to break from the routines of daily lives to take the courageous actions necessary to stop what our Government and ruling elites are doing in our name. They are too busy trying to make ends meet in an economy where decent jobs are vanishing in the race to the bottom and too complacently satisfied by our media-entertainment complex. It is Rome before Augustus; it is Weimar before the Third Reich. It is time to retreat to the garden.

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By margbb, March 1, 2011 at 6:52 pm Link to this comment

to Anarcissie—-My idea is for a mass effect not just a few. It beats trying to demand a two-tier tax system to model the way income is distributed.  I can’t see congress or the senate changing anything since their partnered with corporate/banks and have been for several years.  I’ve read enough articles outlining how their legislatures are even aware or care about the policies main street individuals have been demanding. If you have a more effective idea I’m all ears. TC.

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By gerard, March 1, 2011 at 6:32 pm Link to this comment

David Byron:  May I refer you to the Iraq Veterans Against War.  Chris Hedges knows them well and has spoken to their meetings.  Many of them are suffering from PTSD and related injuries and traumas.  For more on PTSD, many studies are available.  One done during and after Vietnam is entitled “Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder: a Handbook for Clinicians”, edited by Tom Williams and published by Disabled American Veterans.  (Williams’ wife is a friend of mine. There are more recent studies, but I personally know this one.)
  IVAW last year did a series of meetings and broadcasts entitled “Winter Soldioer” which you might be able to find online.  Their members help each other fulltime, and try to help others as well as influence military policy.
  If you aren’t aware of the horrible suffering of many returning vets, you are not looking in the right places.  PTSD and problems related to it are all over the news, up to and including increasingly frequent vet and active duty suicides. See also “War and the Soul” by Edward Tick or “The War Comes Home,” by Aaron Glantz.  Nuf sed.

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By DavidByron, March 1, 2011 at 6:11 pm Link to this comment

gerard:
“These veterans are bearing the wounds of guilt and regret and trying to make amends and recover from unspeakable traumas”

I don’t see any sense in the article, or from anything I’ve seen by such groups, that they have any guilt.  I agree they sure as hell ought to, but instead Hedges describes them in glowing terms.

Instead what I have seen is the usual violent jingoism from these veterans.  The usual tendency to see what they have done as not their fault or heroic “sacrifice”.  They typically turn up in uniform which certainly shows no remorse for their involvement with the military.  They seem proud of it.

As for “unspeakable trauma” they certainly richly deserve it for their part in mass murder wouldn’t you say?  I would prefer to hear about the real trauma of the victims—their victims—not the so-called trauma of the killers.

Hedges was brave to critcise (maybe - it is not clear) the US military in the article accurately calling them hired thugs.  but then as usual he took it all back.  Well, baby steps I suppose.

There is so little truth in his articles it is good when he manages to get a little of it in there even if he does turn around and take it all back.

If you want to end war then quit calling the people who do the killing heroes.  Call them what they are—thugs paid to kill innocent people who do it for the money.

This last week there was some celebration of two Libyan pilots who refused to fire on civilians.  Sadly no American soldiers would ever refuse such an order.

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By Anarcissie, March 1, 2011 at 5:50 pm Link to this comment

In my experience, if you don’t do as IRS desires, they simply take the money out of your bank account.  But we already observe that the government doesn’t need to collect taxes to operate; it just prints the money, in effect taxing those who happen to be holding cash.  Alternatively they seem to be able to borrow endlessly.

People could set up an alternative money system, financial system, and economy, and some initial movements have been made in this direction.  But as long as you’re using the government’s monopoly money, the government can get it away from you, one way or the other.

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By margbb, March 1, 2011 at 3:12 pm Link to this comment

I am sorry I didn’t make myself clear—-I mean a tax revolt—-for example you pay your taxes but creatively—-cheques made out wrong by date—-forgotten signature etc.  Or you send your tax in staggered amounts or to specific governmental departments.  If many did this the system of protest would be achieved. What I am referring is some of the more creative methods of protesting only in this form there is no mistake as to what are issues. In the sixties protesting was done a lot but it took so long and was so easily ascribed with the wrong intent.

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By gerard, March 1, 2011 at 2:54 pm Link to this comment

David Byron:  Oh p-u-l-e-e-z!  he ...“lends credit to the US armed forces by associating with no less than three veterans’ groups at his small protest ...
..hired thugs for peace! Mercenary killers against the war!” 
  What an insulting canard!  These veterans are bearing the wounds of guilt and regret and trying to make amends and recover trom unspeakable traumas.
It is those who fall for the propaganda and keep on killing people for the Pentagon and its military machine who are the traitors to humanity—though most of them don’t realize it yet. When they do, it will be PTSD all over again—and again.

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By Alan MacDonald, March 1, 2011 at 2:19 pm Link to this comment

Hedges is precisely right as Hannah Arendt warned of all Empires from her painful experience at the hands of the Nazi Empire:

“Empire abroad entails tyranny at home”.

Hedges is right that Wikileaks is bravely exposing “Empire abroad”, and Wisconsins are exposing the very same Empire “at home”.

There is no debating the fact that the ruling-elite global corporate/financial/militarist Empire, which has now fully taken over our former country by hiding behind the facade of its ‘bought and owned’ TWO-Party “Vichy” sham of faux-democratic government and equally ‘Vichy’ corporatist media, is the causal cancer buried in the vital organs of America—- and that the actions, courage, and operations to excise that cancer MUST be done by Americans.

This causal cancer of hidden Empire, which is the proximate cause of all the various ‘symptom problems’ abroad and at home; from imperialist oil wars, torture, massive weapons sales, support of dictators, global warming destruction of our only earth, to domestic financial looting, economic oppression, racism, tyranny and all other crimes against average Americans, comes from one and only one source: the ignored Empire in our burning kitchen of democracy.

This awful, this causal, this seminal, this “Unspeakable” horror MUST be faced and confronted by Americans—- we can’t move forward by ignoring the horror.

Before America can move forward it MUST deal honestly with its recent past—- and excise the global corporate/financial/militarist and fascist Empire that came so glaringly into clear view of the world in the figure of our insane previous war president.

Dick Cheney, Rummy, Paulson, Rice, Gonzales and all the other crooks, liars, and war criminals of the Bush regime remind me of nothing but the Hitler regime.

I keep wondering when one of our presidential historians with sufficient balls is going to write an accurate book about this disgusting period of US history titled, “America’s Hitler; the Regime of Insane-Emperor George W. Bush”—- and hopefully with a jacket cover of Bush in his military flight suit on the deck of USS Abraham Lincoln with the banner “Mission Accomplished” and a caption that reads, “Mission Accomplished—Fascism in the USA, with America’s Hitler suited up for his Victory Jig”.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:George_W_Bush_on_the_deck_of_the_USS_Abraham_Lincoln.jpg

I can’t but wonder which will come first; such a book, honest admission, and action by Americans in the US itself, or the greater embarrassment of international indictment of this insane egomaniac by other civilized countries for war crimes and crimes against humanity?

Obamascam is absolutely wrong when he says, “Let’s move forward, rather than look back”——Germany did not recover by doing nothing. Nuremberg was essential to moving forward!

Bush must be indicted BY THE U.S.
9/11 must be exposed in Krystallnacht-light BY THE U.S. itself!

Obama must stop lying about and covering up the past mortal sins of Empire.  He must stop being the current insane faux-Emperor/president of wars and domestic tyranny.  He must excise the war-goddess Hillary.  Or he will be the Mubarak of the US as we begin “The Coming Insurrection” (Negri) “Against Empire” (Parenti) confronting and excising this “Empire of Illusion” (Hedges), and overturning this “Inverted Totalitarianism” (Wolin) and throwing Obama, as the last lying Emperor in an ‘arc of history’ into its trash bin.


Alan MacDonald
Sanford, Maine
“Liberty over violent empire”
Party headquarters

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By gerard, March 1, 2011 at 2:09 pm Link to this comment

JDMysticDJ:  No, I read your comment and appreciated it and sorry in my pout I “forgot” to acknowledge you.  Please keep on supporting nonviolence—and explaining as often as necessary what it is, how it works, why it works when it works, etc. etc.  Seems it is so remote from most people’s minds that it doesn’t get near enough to affect them.
  Keep helping me out, though.  I think it very significant that the US press ignores it, and if you want to find out about its contemporary significance you have to read the Guardian or AlJazeera.  Also, the Forbes article in February (“Revolution U”) by Tina Rosenberg was a rare exception.

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By DavidByron, March 1, 2011 at 2:04 pm Link to this comment

Hedges then describes his hired killers thus:

“if they can walk their trail of tears to the White House so can you. They are our wounded healers, our disregarded prophets”

This is quite a disgusting comparison from the Cherokee victims of the US armed forces to the US soldiers who do the killing.  To Hedges apparently which side of the gun you are on when the trigger is pulled, matters not.

Come on Hedges.  Is it “healers and prophets” or is it “thugs and killers”?  Pick one.

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By DavidByron, March 1, 2011 at 2:00 pm Link to this comment

“a reining in of our mercenary killers, some of whom have been used to quell restless crowds ...  the hired thugs we pay to repress”

Is he referring to the US military here?  If so quite an unusually brave step for Hedges I would say.  I guess he kept it ambiguous.  Meanwhile he lends credit to the US armed forces by associating with no less than three veterans’ groups at his small protest.

Hired thugs for peace!
Mercenary killers against the war!

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By RayLan, March 1, 2011 at 1:15 pm Link to this comment

margbb
“Again, I don’t understand why a tax movement”
I don’t understand what you mean by a tax movement.
Truly the causes of the economic meltdown are esoteric for the average person.  They had nothing whatsoever to do with taxes, although taxes are the main source of government revenue. If the taxes were more fairly proportioned to income, the deficit would significantly decrease. But it wasn’t the deficit that was the problem in the first place.

It was the de-regulation of Wall Street. Banks were allowed to take toxic subprime mortages and sell them as securities on the bond market. Such transactions are illegal in most other countries, especially the more socialized. This virus, nevetheless, infected the global economy.
I don’t know about you but I would resent the fact that my lender has sold my loan to a brokerage that made money betting that I would default.

The corruption is a collaboration of rating/regulative agencies like the SEC with big financial agencies like Goldman Sachs. Bad money was sold as good money and when all the trading was done , (mostly in the securities market) the bubble burst and here we are. Taxes are secondary.

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By JDmysticDJ, March 1, 2011 at 1:02 pm Link to this comment

By gerard, March 1 at 4:13 am Link to this comment

JDMystic:  Nonviolence is even better suited to influencing policy—if and when it is used.  Comes under the rubric “prevention is the better part of cure.”  Nonviolence, when successful, works like a kind of therapy, a medicine for an illness, a social antibiotic, to use another metaphor. It is more likely to heal and less likely to harm the “patient” or “patients”.  Rather than “killing” the patients it “kills” the venom of hatared, resentment, hate, revenge, and tends to develop solidarity, cooperation, sympathy, understanding of various issues, positions and attitudes. incidentally, is there noone else writing on TD who can and will speak for and about nonviolence. How could it be that I am the only person so far?  Seems odd. Are the 60s that far undergound, butmerged, lost to consciousness?  re the name of King is mentioned from time to time, but what, exactly did he do and how did he and others do it? What did we learn as a country?


“…there noone else writing on TD who can and will speak for and about nonviolence. How could it be that I am the only person so far?  Seems odd.”

================================================

Did you miss my previous comments?

By JDmysticDJ, February 28 at 6:56 pm Link to this comment

“With this article Hedges puts the blame squarely where it belongs, without demagoguery and scapegoating…”

Hedges is correct, we have, “No Other Way Out.”

I am indicating full support for Hedges in his call for civil disobedience, and protest.

“We will not stop the war in Afghanistan and Iraq, we will not end this slaughter of innocents, unless we are willing to rise up as have state workers in Wisconsin and citizens on the streets of Arab capitals.”

I have in the past been critical of Hedges because of what I believe is his tendency towards demagoguery, and a tautological scapegoating of the Liberal class, but when I say, “Hedges is correct, we have, “No Other Way Out.” I am indicating full support for Hedges and his call for civil disobedience and protest.

Having been a supporter of King and the Civil Rights Movement, and proudly having been roughed, cuffed, jailed, and charged with a Federal crime, while being non-violently, civilly disobedient, in response to the War in Vietnam, and an active participant the anti-war movement, I am a full supporter of Hedges’ call.

Having been a participant in protest movements in the past, I’m also aware of how some loonies during the Vietnam era turned violent, undercut the Peace Movement, and set back the achievement of peaceful objectives considerably, and in fact, the actions of these loonies had tragic consequences, in terms of public opinion, election outcomes, and loss of life here, but most tragically in Vietnam and greater Indo China, Indonesia, Chile, and beyond. Nixon narrowly defeated Hubert Humphrey in the 1968 presidential election running as the “Law and Order” candidate with a secret plan to end the war, that plan consisted of massive and brutal bombing in North and South Vietnam. Nixon’s foreign policy guru was, accused war criminal, Henry Kissinger. The war crimes perpetrated by Nixon and Kissinger can not rationally be attributed to loony radicals, but the actions of these loonies did significantly impact public opinion, and election outcomes. Perhaps my criticisms of the loonies are a result of these historical realities.

In conclusion, I’ll say that I nearly always agree with your comments, and I believe your comments are always constructive, but I’ve noticed that your comments are not acknowledged, or approved of, by the loonies, and finally, my belief is that Hedges is correct, only non-violent protest and non-violent civil disobedience can provide the “way out” of the current madness we are enveloped in.

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By JustTBear, March 1, 2011 at 12:55 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Bottom line….me and two of my boys will be there 3/19. Will you?

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By Anarcissie, March 1, 2011 at 12:30 pm Link to this comment

Karenontheridge—Excellent idea.  I shall write to my ‘ultraliberal’ Congresswoman, Carolyn Maloney.  She represents a district that would elect a fencepost if it ran on the Democratic ticket, so she has a fairly safe seat.  Last year she defeated a well-funded Wall Street shill in the primary by about 4 to 1.  She should get out there.

margbb—What kind of action did you have in mind?

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By Karenontheridge, March 1, 2011 at 11:58 am Link to this comment

As I was listening to Congress on C-span this morning.
I thought that these people who represent us should be
invited to join in this action on March 19. There are a
considerable number who are speaking out against
continued intervention/aggression in Afghanistan,
Pakistan,Iraq and other areas around the globe. If they
can speak on the House floor, surely they can make a
statement at this rally. I hope you read these
comments, Chris, and consider making personal
invitations.

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By margbb, March 1, 2011 at 11:37 am Link to this comment

Again, I don’t understand why a tax movement is not considered as a means of direct action.  Its MONEY that is the ultimate goal of banks, corporations.  The outright theft of pension funds doesn’t seem to be really dealt with.  Protesting is fraught with misinterpretations especially by the media.  A year where taxes were the issue would put the focus squarely on those manipulating the system.  Please comment.

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By Farfar, March 1, 2011 at 11:36 am Link to this comment

Thank you Chris, again!!

The civil action in Lafayette Park in March, like the one in December, is organized
and led by veterans, but I believe that everybody is welcome. If I’m right that
should be advertised.

I was honored to participate last time; it was a particularly moving and meaningful
experience, and very well organized.

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By drbhelthi, March 1, 2011 at 9:44 am Link to this comment

Tell it like it is, Chris Hedges !
I remember the Republican and Democrat parties, before they were taken over by the GHWBushSr entourage and the C.I.A., which evolved from the WWII NAZI clan. This was forty years before the serial, falsified u.s. presidential elections began.

Political parties were different; polluted, but not like today.
Now, both parties seem to stand for bribes and enslavement of Americans and the western world.  While sponsoring population-reduction in the U.S., with VIOXX-type drugs that kill adults, and mandating alleged “inoculations” that maim our children, having increased AUTISM and ADHD from 1::2000 to 1::150 in the last fifteen years.

The medical-murder-machine manipulates politicians to mandate even more alleged inoculations for children. Which pseudo inoculations inoculate against nothing, rather confuse the immune system and initiate autoimmune illnesses, which only naturalists can cure.

This, while murdering innocent Moslems in their homelands of Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, while the CIA/MOSSAD infiltrate Iran. Which U.S. military activity reminds one of the sinister NAZI action of WWII, rather than the U.S. intervention back then to curb the NAZIs !

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By David J. Cyr, March 1, 2011 at 9:41 am Link to this comment

QUOTE (gerard):

“is there noone else writing on TD who can and will speak for and about nonviolence. How could it be that I am the only person so far?”
_______________

Liberals persuaded people to always be peaceful when protesting, then the liberals ensured that elections couldn’t be used for peaceful purposes.

The Violence of “Nonviolence” :

http://chenangogreens.org/home/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=492&Itemid=1

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By RayLan, March 1, 2011 at 9:11 am Link to this comment

Anarcissie
You vision is blurred by overwhelming bias - I see a very passionate discussion and fleshing out of the issues that Chris articulated. And there is very little squabble except from your grasping at straws. Typically the right-tending either divert attention to critical facts by obsessing about some other hot issue like gov spending - or meta-arguments - discussing about discussion - arguing about arguing - blogging about blogging Yawn…

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By Anarcissie, March 1, 2011 at 8:52 am Link to this comment

Raylan—As of the last time I wrote, I hadn’t seen a discussion.  A discussion means a back-and-forth between two or more parties about roughly the same subject.  Tinpot calls for instant revolution do not fall into this category.

Your notion that Hedges speaks just to hear himself talk (as so many bloggists do) is interesting, but nevertheless I continue to have the strong impression that he is trying to communicate something.

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By RayLan, March 1, 2011 at 7:18 am Link to this comment

Anarcissie
Chris is not a politician - he doesn’t pander which is what ‘trying to get people to agree’ is all about. He just tells it like it is, moral outrage and all - and if you don’t agree - so much the worse. There are commenters who are making suggestions about how to organize a resistance - that isn’t serious? I have no idea what you think is supposed to be accomplished on a blog but this subject matter couldn’t be more serious. You aren’t taking it seriously because of your obvious anti-left bias - so your comments need not be taken seriously.

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By Steve E, March 1, 2011 at 6:40 am Link to this comment

Well, finally most of the comments indicate that Obama has been a false messiah
because he is hardly discussed. “Winning the future” and “hope and change” are
apparently an obvious crock. Now that we have surmounted that expensive
diversion lets move on. The important thing is to focus. Focus on ending the
perpetual warring as Chris suggests. The killing is gutting the very soul of the our
country. But as far as I’m concerned, it’s too late, we have already drank too much
of the Kool Aid and watched far too much Disneyland and Oprah not to mention
the Military Channel. Lets face it, after Vietnam, Cambodia, Panama, Iraq,
Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, and so on, if this nation hasn’t learned it never will
until it is flat busted. What a crying shame and damn the human race.

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By Leefeller, March 1, 2011 at 5:52 am Link to this comment

Plansman, I am already doing most of what is listed, need to review it for ideas I may be missing. Also will check out your links when I get a chance.

It is almost impossible to buy products made in USA, I will pay more for them also.

Don’t buy junk seems a bit general?

Must say I appreciate your list, especially; this part ” If you travel consider this: Boats are the most fuel efficient, trains are second, and planes are the absolute worst.”

If I ever make it back to Hawaii, I will take a boat instead of Rico Air.

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By Arouete, March 1, 2011 at 5:16 am Link to this comment

Chris Hedges is, I think, the most moral man in America. His humanity is unassailable. His literary talents are sometimes to powerful to bear. His love is as profound as his anger is searing.  Review his articles over the past three years and you will witness an American Cassandra.  He also tells us what many of us already feel we know: the real reason why Bradley Manning and Julian Assange are truly threats to national security: because if We The People ever found out the truth about what our government does at the behest of the oligarchic corporate slave-masters who own it, our streets too would break to riot.  Think it can’t happen here?  Last Saturday, Jeff Cox, a deputy attorney general in Indiana, suggested on his Twitter account that police “use live ammunition” on the protesters occupying the state Capitol. Fortunately Cox was fired. Wisconsin Gov Walker is reported to have said he would call in the National Guard to crack down on unruly workers upset that their bargaining rights were being stripped away.

While Muammar Qaddafi’ gave away chump change other tyrants moved to placate their restless, angry populations, including 87-year-old Saudi King Abdullah, a sclerotic, American-backed autocrat who just announced a massive $36 billion package of benefits (think: bribe) aimed at his own people, lest they, too, get out of hand.  Your tax dollars at work?  I doubt Americans will get another extension of unemployment benefits.

When Mariah Carrey, Beyoncé, Usher and 50 Cent, take blood-soaked money to perform for the decadent heirs of tyrants (Carey herself accepted $1 million to perform for Qaddafi’s son, Muatassim, Libya’s national-security adviser, at a lavish New Year’s Eve party on the Caribbean island of St. Barts in 2008) then something about America seems rotten at it’s core.

It’s going to get ugly in America and when it does don’t say Chris Heges didn’t warn us.

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By plainsman, March 1, 2011 at 3:53 am Link to this comment

There are lots of things people can do to evoke “change” in contemporary Western Society:

If a political candidate has corporate backing don’t vote for him or her.

If you have a choice between buying something from a megacorp or a small business choose the small business, even if it costs more.

Don’t buy disposable items.

Buy food from local producers. Check out CSAs.

Stop watching television.

Get to know your neighbours.

Stop using chemicals; especially pesticides and fertilizers.

Plant a garden. Grow your own food.

If you have a lawn, replant it to native flora. In most urban centres in the United States this is breaking the law.

Avoid homogeneity; celebrate diversity.

If you visit foreign places avoid the resorts, support the locals.

If you travel consider this: Boats are the most fuel efficient, trains are second, and planes are the absolute worst.

If you have a choice between a new subdivision and remaking an inner city neighbourhood do the latter.

Never trust one source of information, even a trusted source.

If you can, go off grid.

If you have a choice between driving your car and taking a bus, take the bus.

WALK.

Smell the world around you.

Realize that you are voting with your dollars.

Avoid trendy—clothes, home decor ...

If you have a choice between something purely cosmetic and helping someone less fortunate, do the latter.

Don’t buy junk.

Don’t buy bottled water.

Avoid Hollywood films.

Disregard mainstream news from whatever source.

If a corporation is a bad citizen, boycott it.

If you have a choice between working for a megacorp and a small business, choose the small business.

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By plainsman, March 1, 2011 at 3:45 am Link to this comment

There sure are a lot of preachers around here. And the one in the pulpit, Reverend Hedges, doesn’t grasp the meaning of the term “civil disobedience”. I recommend that you all read a primer on Gandhi: India’s Revolution. Gandhi and the Quit India Movement by Francis G. Hutchins. To Gandhi “civil disobedience” was the deliberate breaking of unjust laws. His march to the sea, where he picked up a handful of salt, was in defiance of a newly penned British Law forbidding Indians from harvesting salt. Gandhi deliberately broke that law and he made a public display of it.

In this regard the US government has presented its citizens with a “civil disobedience” gift. The new food laws that oblige the chipping of animals intended for slaughter is an unjust law. It is written to favour factory farming megacorps, to displace local, small scale producers.

If Chris Hedges wants to break a law and be truly civilly disobedient, buy an unchipped chicken from Joel Salatin at Polyface Farm. And make a big display of it. Get media coverage.

( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrxmgR-vYms )

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By tman, March 1, 2011 at 2:36 am Link to this comment

The first step has to be purging the government of Zionists. This political group should be listed as a Terrorist organization.

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By kulturcritic, March 1, 2011 at 2:22 am Link to this comment

Chris - thank you for this amazing piece.  I would simply like to add to this discussion.

http://ezinearticles.com/?A-Rectification-of-Names—-On-Truth-and-Freedom-of-Speech&id=5569362

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By Anarcissie, March 1, 2011 at 12:39 am Link to this comment

Raylan—where do you see a discussion of critical issues?  I mean a serious discussion.

Of course Hedges is trying to get people to agree with him.  The problem is that he spends most of his time preaching to the choir, which has no effect because most of the people who hear him or read his stuff already feel the same way about things as he does.

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By gerard, February 28, 2011 at 11:13 pm Link to this comment

JDMystic:  Nonviolence is even better suited to influencing policy—if and when it is used.  Comes under the rubric “prevention is the better part of cure.”  Nonviolence, when successful, works like a kind of therapy, a medicine for an illness, a social antibiotic, to use another metaphor. It is more likely to heal and less likely to harm the “patient” or “patients”.  Rather than “killing” the patients it “kills” the venom of hatared, resentment, hate, revenge, and tends to develop solidarity, cooperation, sympathy, understanding of various issues, positions and attitudes. 
  incidentally, is there noone else writing on TD who can and will speak for and about nonviolence. How could it be that I am the only person so far?  Seems odd. Are the 60s that far undergound, butmerged, lost to consciousness?  re the name of King is mentioned from time to time, but what, exactly did he do and how did he and others do it? What did we learn as a country?

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By JDmysticDJ, February 28, 2011 at 10:44 pm Link to this comment

I thought we were discussing influencing policy, apparently we’ve morphed into over-throwing the government.

Lunacy reigns supreme.

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By JDmysticDJ, February 28, 2011 at 10:44 pm Link to this comment

I thought we were discussing influencing policy, apparently we’ve morphed into over-throwing the government.

Lunacy reigns supreme.

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By Morpheus, February 28, 2011 at 10:02 pm Link to this comment

There is a way out.

There is better way to get your voices heard. We have to be smarter and proactive, not reactive. We have to organize for real change, and not chump change.

*** Free people shouldn’t act like slaves ***

*** We Need A New Vision for America ***


“STAND UP PEOPLE!”  -  JOIN THE REVOLUTION
Read “Common Sense 3.1” at ( http://www.revolution2.osixs.org )

We don’t have to live like this anymore. “Spread the News”

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By gerard, February 28, 2011 at 9:28 pm Link to this comment

“Are the protesters in Wisconsin violent revolutionaries? Were the protesters of Egypt committed to non-violence?”
  To answer questions like this, you need to know that there are a number of nonviolence training centers operating in the world as potential answers to violent demonstrations for social change.
  The one where Egyptian leaders studied before the mass demonstrations is perhaps the best known.  It is in Serbia, and grew up around a group of young people who were influential in the overthrow of Milosevic.  The center is called CANVAS—Center for Applied NonViolent Action and Strategy.  (See Foreign Policy Magazine ” Feb. 28, 2911 article by Tina Rosenberg entitled “Revolution U.”)
  This connection was very scantily reported that leaders among the crowds in the square in Cairo circulated regularly during times of stress, repeating “Peaceful, Peaceful.” Other strategies of nonresistance were encouraged, plus establishing a key positive relationship with the military.  ‘
  True, there was some violence and some arrests, but overall the huge demonstrations day after day illustrated the possibility that nonviolence even with minimal training and understanding is broadly transmitable and commitment can be consistent.
  Al Jazeera English also has a brief video online that touches on this subject.  I have seen absolutely nothing about it in U.S. media—for obvious reasons, of course.  You have to dig it out for yourself.  Look up A.J. Muste and see what is there. Also AVP—Alternatives to Violence Projects. Chris needs to do this research himself and I am sorry that so far he seems not to have done so. There are resources in the US, but I believe Serbia’s CANVAS is very well known in Europe.
  Moral commitment to protest is important, but knowledge and understanding of nonviolent strategy and tactics is of extreme importance in preparation for action.

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By margbb, February 28, 2011 at 8:17 pm Link to this comment

I have been asking why is protest the only method of action ever offered?  What is so wrong in dealing directly with the main issue at the bottom of every debate these days—-MONEY.  Is the idea of a genuine tax movements of say…staggered payments as a means of protest so scary. At least the issue of who really pays for things and should therefore be given direct attention is front and center.

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By PatrickHenry, February 28, 2011 at 8:13 pm Link to this comment

TDoff,

I’m sure the up and comming drone army and air force will solve the loyalty issue.

Skeet anyone?

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