This next question is from Truthdig reader Rogers. - Scheer, it seems to me that your take on this does not recognize the differences between the situation we currently face and the ’60s. What do you think are the relevant differences and similarities?
9:14 Truthdig
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Fri, 25 Jun 2010 17:14:57 GMT
Comment:
(If you have submitted a question please give Robert Scheer some time to answer the previous questions; we will get to yours shortly.)
9:16 Bob Scheer
Fri, 25 Jun 2010 17:16:03 GMT
Comment:
I don’t see the differences in terms of claiming to fight an international enemy that threatens you. In the ’60s, there was something called international communism, but communism was even then hopelessly fragmented. There were hardly two communist governments that were on decent speaking terms—certainly not the Chinese and the Vietnamese communists. Yet we insisted we were fighting a war against a unified international communism. Now we commit the same error in insisting we are fighting a war against a unified international terrorism, but the Taliban in Afghanistan is, like the Viet Cong in Vietnam, a homegrown movement that has to be dealt with by people in the country who understand the culture, and change will come—as it has in Vietnam and China—from within, and not by foreign invasion.
9:16 Comment From Steve
Fri, 25 Jun 2010 17:16:12 GMT
Comment: Which are the regulatory bodies and why aren’t they being held more accountable. This would not likely have happened with Norway’s requirements. ...
9:19 Bob Scheer
Fri, 25 Jun 2010 17:19:06 GMT
Comment:
(To Steve) If this refers to the oil spill, clearly we didn’t have an effective regulatory regime regarding oil drilling any more than regarding banking. The lobbyists own Washington. Read my book out in about four weeks called “The Great American Stickup” for the whole sorry, sordid tale. Regulation is not a dirty word in Norway, where they very effectively control their drilling operations, but thanks to the Reagan Revolution, abetted by Clintonomics and drunk to excess under George W. Bush, we lost regulation of any important aspect of multinational corporate activity in this country, be it in health, finance, mineral exploration, or what have you.
9:19 Truthdig
Fri, 25 Jun 2010 17:19:14 GMT
Comment:
Question from Truthdig reader kayrun—Gen. McChrystal’s and staff’s disclosures to Rolling Stone are so far from normal protocol that it raises the question whether this was deliberate provocation of President Obama or staged? If so, would one purpose be to appoint Gen. Petraeus to head up the Afghanistan war? Obama would surely have the power to do this, but perhaps did not want public questions about putting Petraeus in charge. McChrystal must have known that this would be like setting fire to a munitions depot.
9:19 Comment From Steve
Fri, 25 Jun 2010 17:19:21 GMT
Comment: Oops—I (Steve) was thinking about the oil spill. ...
9:20 Comment From Foucauldian
Fri, 25 Jun 2010 17:20:28 GMT
Comment: Indeed, we’re still persisting on manufacturing an enemy. In the ’60s it was the communists; today it’s terrorism. It looks like U.S. foreign policy hasn’t changed one bit. The same old mentality.
9:22 Bob Scheer
Fri, 25 Jun 2010 17:22:24 GMT
Comment:
(To kayrun) I answered this with the first question—that I could see McChrystal wanting an exit strategy for himself, as did Gen. MacArthur back in the Korean War. And now, he is off the hook, and as things disintegrate in Afghanistan, it’s all going to be Obama’s doing, because he got rid of our John Wayne figure. Obama has fallen into the trap. Instead of changing course and picking one of the people who knows this policy is bankrupt, like our ambassador—a former general—to run things, which would mean basically taking seriously the date for beginning to get out and turning power over to this Afghan military that we’ve invested so much money in, he’s actually picked another so-called miracle maker in Petraeus, and it won’t work. It didn’t work in Iraq, which remains a bloody mess, and it certainly won’t work in Afghanistan, which is a far more complex, impenetrable situation.
9:22 Comment From gibby
Fri, 25 Jun 2010 17:22:43 GMT
Comment: What do you think about Ragland saying turn house [over] to lender if don’t work with lender to lower loan, and what do you think of Hedges’ thought on revolting against the system?
9:23 Comment From Steve
Fri, 25 Jun 2010 17:23:02 GMT
Comment: Do you think that the “left” should start organizing with the thought in mind of an alternative to Obama after his many betrayals? What else can we do?
9:24 Comment From Anthony Thomas
Fri, 25 Jun 2010 17:24:05 GMT
Comment: Start organizing? It’s a semi-police state, we ...
9:24 Comment From Anthony Thomas
Fri, 25 Jun 2010 17:24:13 GMT
Comment: We’ll never get enough people for the MMS to cover it.
9:24 Comment From Foucauldian
Fri, 25 Jun 2010 17:24:27 GMT
Comment: Good question, Steve. I’m afraid the left hasn’t much pull. It’s the independents who hold the key to political victories.
9:24 Bob Scheer
Fri, 25 Jun 2010 17:24:54 GMT
Comment:
(To Steve) Oh boy. Everyone should organize—not just the left—to demand that Wall Street be reined in, that unemployment insurance be extended to the millions that need it to survive, that deep-ocean drilling be stopped until we figure out how to do it, and that the U.S. end both these unnecessary wars we’re involved in. I don’t see these as left or right issues, but rather as a matter of common sense. As a candidate, Obama indicated that he had a healthy measure of common sense on such matters. And what we need to get across to him: that his presidency is doomed if he does not return to the clarity of his campaign.
Click here to check out Robert Scheer’s new book, “The Great American Stickup: How Reagan Republicans and Clinton Democrats Enriched Wall Street While Mugging Main Street.”
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This debacle also seems to allow greater convenience towards opening up discussion about the rules of engagement. This, at a time when I’m noticing a lot of opinion pages highlighting the frustrations of commanders in the field who are being pinned down and denied arial support due to the “winning hearts and minds” campaign.
I think, as Petraeus desires, we are going to see an increase in offensive measures. And with the pointless (and seemingly strategic) release of the U.S. Geological Survey’s assessment of Afghanistan’s mineral wealth, who here thinks our boys are going to be told to remain passive?
And the lie of Muslim terrorists with box-cutters finds fertile adherents by those who should know better.
Unless and until we understand that such lies are manufactured, and how they serve to enrich the wealthy, ensure a larger National Security State, and justify any and every act of imperial aggression and a ever-increasing military budget, we will never be able to face the most profound fact of all: That our government continues to lie to us at every turn, and that in order to be considered “credible”, journalists must accept and repeat those lies. Such willful ignorance is breath-taking.
Mr Sheer, with all due respect, do a little investigation, how about? For starters, maybe you can explain to us how a jumbo jet full of passengers crashes into the side of the Pentagon without leaving any passengers, luggage, engines, landing gear and squeezes into a hole smaller than the circumference of its fuselage.
“The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence that it is not utterly absurd.”
(Bertrand Russell)
THIS JUST IN:
On or about December 20, when most Americans are busy with last minute Christmas shopping, Adm. Westmoreland, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, will reach into his uniform pocket, and remove a Bible that he always keeps there. It will magically open at page 101 and he will read:
Greetings. Verily I say unto you that the Afghan War is over. Actually it has been over for some months but I guess you haven’t noticed.
Do as I say now, because I am your Higher Commander.
Go at once to Mr. Karzia, bow politely and tell him that your guys are finished and that he can talk all he wants to the Taliban and make any deal he wishes. You are out of here. Tell him just don’t let the Taliban claim a “victory” because you will need that word when you get back home. If he curses you in English, tell him when you started you thought you were doing the right thing.
Tell him the minerals and stuff in the hills belong to him to manage as he sees fit. Then pull your men back from battle positions and clear out a.s.a.p.
TheJaundicedEye - “Afghanistan is not Vietnam” is an ‘interesting’ piece of spittle given that when Russia went to war with Afghanistan, Brezezinski wrote a letter to Carter saying that now America could give Russia its Vietnam.
And there are some who argue that Mother Russia, already on the skids, sealed its downfall when it went to war with Afghanistan. (But of course America pays absolutely no attention to, gives no credence to historical precedent because America is an exception, peopled by the exceptional, guided by God, blah, blah, blah.)
How many of you remember the straight faced lies issuing from Washington, the neocons, warmongers and
defense profiteers stating flat out, without qualification, “Afghanistan is not Vietnam!”
Well, if it is not, it is one hell of a good imitation.
The USA is continuing to demonstrate the kind of hubristic stupidity and delusions of immortality and invulnerability which led to the USA having its ass handed to it after many years of farting around in Vietnam. Mayhap it will not be quite so clear a defeat this time, since the USA is not squaring off against a fully functioning nation state, but, rather, tribal zanies. However, the basic mistakes are the same . The USA is engaged in a war far from home, with incredibly long and exposed supply lines. There is no way to streamline the logistical system because most of the world is against the USA as it continues its mad adventuring. The USA is once again messing around in someone else’s backyard and has not taken the trouble to find out who the enemy is, how he thinks, or what can be gained by playing this stupid game. The US soldiers in Afghanistan have no more idea why they are in Afghanistan than a virus has why it is in someone’s
respiratory system. There is a lack of clear objectives and a lack of understanding of what will constitute victory. The only real difference between Afghanistan and Vietnam is the fact that in Vietnam there was a conscript army. Today, there is a professional force, all wearing the pickle suit by choice, although, for many of the soldiers, it is not much of a choice. Overwhelmingly, the grunts, the ground pounders, continue to be from the poorer, less privileged groups and areas of the USA.
So, why is Afghanistan not Vietnam? As far as I can tell, the only real differences between Vietnam and Afghanistan are geographic location and the fact that there is not a conscript US force in Afghanistan.
Sooner or later, the outcome of this insane field trip will be the same as the outcome of Vietnam. The only way available to produce anything which can plausibly be passed off as victory is to commit levels of troops and equipment that are just not possible, for time periods that are just not possible. This war has all ready cost the USA trillions of dollars, thousands of lives and the respect of the world. The damage from this piece of idiocy is quite likely to be even more serious than the damage that followed Vietnam. Actually, I have just realized that the last sentence above is actually another reason why Afghanistan is not Vietnam. Eventually, the fact that all of this gross stupidity is being paid for by borrowed money is going to have some effect on the USA’s ability to borrow money.
So, I am about to make a suggestion which has been made before, but no one has ever been smart enough to see the value in it. The USA should call a press conference, declare victory and drag itself home, before the inevitable day of judgment. Who is in the captain’s chair does not matter one little bit. The end is foreordained. McChrystal’s war or Petraeus’s war, makes no difference.
By richard nixon, June 25, 2010 at 7:46 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)
I think it would be beneficial to have more of these discussions and even start a
forum on here. There are a lot of questions I would like to pose about articles
written on here, just to general readers, but many can easily got lost below the
article.
Robert: I’m making this sugggestion from both listening in and submitting a question and from reading the results online. I think you had better decide ahead of time on one subject for discussion the following session and limit questions to that subject alone. Otherwise it is coming off as an awkward hodgepodge lacking in coherence and impact.
Just a thought. I know a lot of work goes into it.
How the IRS’ Nonprofit Division Got So Dysfunctional
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By Tim, June 28, 2010 at 8:02 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)
This debacle also seems to allow greater convenience towards opening up discussion about the rules of engagement. This, at a time when I’m noticing a lot of opinion pages highlighting the frustrations of commanders in the field who are being pinned down and denied arial support due to the “winning hearts and minds” campaign.
I think, as Petraeus desires, we are going to see an increase in offensive measures. And with the pointless (and seemingly strategic) release of the U.S. Geological Survey’s assessment of Afghanistan’s mineral wealth, who here thinks our boys are going to be told to remain passive?
Report thisBy FRTothus, June 28, 2010 at 1:27 pm Link to this comment
And the lie of Muslim terrorists with box-cutters finds fertile adherents by those who should know better.
Unless and until we understand that such lies are manufactured, and how they serve to enrich the wealthy, ensure a larger National Security State, and justify any and every act of imperial aggression and a ever-increasing military budget, we will never be able to face the most profound fact of all: That our government continues to lie to us at every turn, and that in order to be considered “credible”, journalists must accept and repeat those lies. Such willful ignorance is breath-taking.
Mr Sheer, with all due respect, do a little investigation, how about? For starters, maybe you can explain to us how a jumbo jet full of passengers crashes into the side of the Pentagon without leaving any passengers, luggage, engines, landing gear and squeezes into a hole smaller than the circumference of its fuselage.
“The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence that it is not utterly absurd.”
Report this(Bertrand Russell)
By gerard, June 26, 2010 at 10:50 am Link to this comment
THIS JUST IN:
On or about December 20, when most Americans are busy with last minute Christmas shopping, Adm. Westmoreland, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, will reach into his uniform pocket, and remove a Bible that he always keeps there. It will magically open at page 101 and he will read:
Greetings. Verily I say unto you that the Afghan War is over. Actually it has been over for some months but I guess you haven’t noticed.
Do as I say now, because I am your Higher Commander.
Go at once to Mr. Karzia, bow politely and tell him that your guys are finished and that he can talk all he wants to the Taliban and make any deal he wishes. You are out of here. Tell him just don’t let the Taliban claim a “victory” because you will need that word when you get back home. If he curses you in English, tell him when you started you thought you were doing the right thing.
Tell him the minerals and stuff in the hills belong to him to manage as he sees fit. Then pull your men back from battle positions and clear out a.s.a.p.
Postscript: Thou Shalt Not Kill.
Report thisBy felicity, June 26, 2010 at 8:39 am Link to this comment
TheJaundicedEye - “Afghanistan is not Vietnam” is an ‘interesting’ piece of spittle given that when Russia went to war with Afghanistan, Brezezinski wrote a letter to Carter saying that now America could give Russia its Vietnam.
And there are some who argue that Mother Russia, already on the skids, sealed its downfall when it went to war with Afghanistan. (But of course America pays absolutely no attention to, gives no credence to historical precedent because America is an exception, peopled by the exceptional, guided by God, blah, blah, blah.)
Report thisBy TheJaundicedEye, June 26, 2010 at 6:20 am Link to this comment
How many of you remember the straight faced lies issuing from Washington, the neocons, warmongers and
Report thisdefense profiteers stating flat out, without qualification, “Afghanistan is not Vietnam!”
Well, if it is not, it is one hell of a good imitation.
The USA is continuing to demonstrate the kind of hubristic stupidity and delusions of immortality and invulnerability which led to the USA having its ass handed to it after many years of farting around in Vietnam. Mayhap it will not be quite so clear a defeat this time, since the USA is not squaring off against a fully functioning nation state, but, rather, tribal zanies. However, the basic mistakes are the same . The USA is engaged in a war far from home, with incredibly long and exposed supply lines. There is no way to streamline the logistical system because most of the world is against the USA as it continues its mad adventuring. The USA is once again messing around in someone else’s backyard and has not taken the trouble to find out who the enemy is, how he thinks, or what can be gained by playing this stupid game. The US soldiers in Afghanistan have no more idea why they are in Afghanistan than a virus has why it is in someone’s
respiratory system. There is a lack of clear objectives and a lack of understanding of what will constitute victory. The only real difference between Afghanistan and Vietnam is the fact that in Vietnam there was a conscript army. Today, there is a professional force, all wearing the pickle suit by choice, although, for many of the soldiers, it is not much of a choice. Overwhelmingly, the grunts, the ground pounders, continue to be from the poorer, less privileged groups and areas of the USA.
So, why is Afghanistan not Vietnam? As far as I can tell, the only real differences between Vietnam and Afghanistan are geographic location and the fact that there is not a conscript US force in Afghanistan.
Sooner or later, the outcome of this insane field trip will be the same as the outcome of Vietnam. The only way available to produce anything which can plausibly be passed off as victory is to commit levels of troops and equipment that are just not possible, for time periods that are just not possible. This war has all ready cost the USA trillions of dollars, thousands of lives and the respect of the world. The damage from this piece of idiocy is quite likely to be even more serious than the damage that followed Vietnam. Actually, I have just realized that the last sentence above is actually another reason why Afghanistan is not Vietnam. Eventually, the fact that all of this gross stupidity is being paid for by borrowed money is going to have some effect on the USA’s ability to borrow money.
So, I am about to make a suggestion which has been made before, but no one has ever been smart enough to see the value in it. The USA should call a press conference, declare victory and drag itself home, before the inevitable day of judgment. Who is in the captain’s chair does not matter one little bit. The end is foreordained. McChrystal’s war or Petraeus’s war, makes no difference.
By Ouroborus, June 26, 2010 at 5:24 am Link to this comment
I’m tired and don’t want to read anything; where’s the
Report thismp3?
By Marc Schlee, June 26, 2010 at 2:48 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)
Isn’t a “masterstroke” when you get it right the first time instead of screwing up really, really bad and then sweeping it under the political carpet?
FREE AMERICA
DIRECT DEMOCRACY
Report thisBy richard nixon, June 25, 2010 at 7:46 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)
I think it would be beneficial to have more of these discussions and even start a
Report thisforum on here. There are a lot of questions I would like to pose about articles
written on here, just to general readers, but many can easily got lost below the
article.
By gerard, June 25, 2010 at 5:25 pm Link to this comment
Robert: I’m making this sugggestion from both listening in and submitting a question and from reading the results online. I think you had better decide ahead of time on one subject for discussion the following session and limit questions to that subject alone. Otherwise it is coming off as an awkward hodgepodge lacking in coherence and impact.
Just a thought. I know a lot of work goes into it.
Report this