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Do Not Pity the Democrats

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Posted on Sep 12, 2010
AP / Elise Amendola

By Chris Hedges

(Page 2)

“Poor people do not organize,” Nader lamented. “They never have. It has always been people who have fairly good jobs. You don’t see Wal-Mart workers massing anywhere. The people who are the most militant are the people who had the best blue-collar jobs. Their expectation level was high. When they felt their jobs were being jeopardized they got really angry. But when you are at $7.25 an hour you want to hang on to $7.25 an hour. It is a strange thing.”

“People have institutionalized oppressive power in the form of surrender,” Nader said. “It is not that they like it. But what are you going to do about it? You make the best of it. The system of control is staggeringly dictatorial. It breaks new ground and innovates in ways no one in human history has ever innovated. You start in American history where these corporations have influence. Then they have lobbyists. Then they run candidates. Then they put their appointments in top government positions. Now, they are actually operating the government. Look at Halliburton and Blackwater. Yesterday someone in our office called the Office of Pipeline Safety apropos the San Bruno explosion in California. The press woman answered. The guy in our office saw on the screen that she had CTR next to her name. He said, ‘What is CTR?’ She said, ‘I am a contractor.’ He said, ‘This is the press office at the Department of Transportation. They contracted out the press office?’ ‘Yes,’ she said, ‘but that’s OK, I come to work here every day.’ ” 

“The corporate state is the ultimate maturation of American-type fascism,” Nader said. “They leave wide areas of personal freedom so that people can confuse personal freedom with civic freedom—the freedom to go where you want, eat where you want, associate with who you want, buy what you want, work where you want, sleep when you want, play when you want. If people have given up on any civic or political role for themselves there is a sufficient amount of elbow room to get through the day. They do not have the freedom to participate in the decisions about war, foreign policy, domestic health and safety issues, taxes or transportation. That is its genius. But one of its Achilles’ heels is that the price of the corporate state is a deteriorating political economy. They can’t stop their greed from getting the next morsel. The question is, at what point are enough people going to have a breaking point in terms of their own economic plight? At what point will they say enough is enough? When that happens, is a tea party type enough or [Sen. Robert M.] La Follette or Eugene Debs type of enough?”

It is anti-corporate movements as exemplified by the Scandinavian energy firm Kraft&Kultur that we must emulate. Kraft&Kultur sells electricity exclusively from solar and water power. It has begun to merge clean energy with cultural events, bookstores and a political consciousness that actively defies corporate hegemony. 

The failure by the Obama administration to use the bailout and stimulus money to build public works such as schools, libraries, roads, clinics, highways, public transit and reclaiming dams, as well as create green jobs, has snuffed out any hope of serious economic, political or environmental reform coming from the centralized bureaucracy of the corporate state. And since the government did not hire enough auditors and examiners to monitor how the hundreds of billions in taxpayer funds funneled to Wall Street are being spent, we will soon see reports of widespread mismanagement and corruption. The rot and corruption at the top levels of our financial and political systems, coupled with the increasing deprivation felt by tens of millions of Americans, are volatile tinder for a horrific right-wing backlash in the absence of a committed socialist alternative.   

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“If you took a day off and did nothing but listen to Hannity, Beck and Limbaugh and realized that this goes on 260 days a year, you would see that it is overwhelming,” Nader said. “You have to almost have a genetic resistance in your mind and body not to be affected by it. These guys are very good. They are clever. They are funny. They are emotional. It beats me how Air America didn’t make it, except it went after [it criticized] corporations, and corporations advertise. These right-wingers go after government, and government doesn’t advertise. And that is the difference. It isn’t that their message appeals more. Air America starved because it could not get ads.”

We do not have much time left. And the longer we refuse to confront corporate power the more impotent we become as society breaks down. The game of electoral politics, which is given legitimacy by the right and the so-called left on the cable news shows, is just that—a game. It diverts us from what should be our daily task—dismantling, piece by piece, the iron grip that corporations hold over our lives. Hope is a word that is applicable only to those who grasp reality, however bleak, and do something meaningful to fight back—which does not include the farce of elections and involvement in mainstream political parties. Hope is about fighting against the real forces of destruction, not chanting “Yes We Can!” in rallies orchestrated by marketing experts, television crews, pollsters and propagandists or begging Obama to be Obama. Hope, in the hands of realists, spreads fear into the black heart of the corporate elite. But hope, real hope, remains thwarted by our collective self-delusion.


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By radson, September 18, 2010 at 7:43 am Link to this comment

Well Shen lets get on with it.

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By Anarcissie, September 18, 2010 at 7:37 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous—you seem to have gotten well beyond the level of the previous discussion we were involved in around this subject.  It will take me some time to catch up.  It would be interesting if others would take the subject seriously enough to get beyond such hobby-horses as denouncing the banks and the media, and think about what might replace them.

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By Shenonymous, September 18, 2010 at 7:29 am Link to this comment

”Lazarus was a beggar (slave) of the rich man and he was now
enjoying the pleasures of heaven while ‘the elite man’ was anguishing
in torment.”

So then in raising the dead Lazarus from his Big Sleep, he was plucked
from the pleasures of heaven?  What a Jesus!


radson - a thoughtful commentary.  What attracted my mind to
socialized capitalism is that it is self-perpetuating because all the
citizens of the society are involved and have a stake in their governing
structure from production to consumer to economic growth.  I am
serious in pursuing this idea to see if there are grains of rationality in
doing something, if not that exactly, then something that has similar
promise.  I do think its time has come as I believe there are plenty of
excellent minds in the earthosphere, even right here on Truthdig, that I
feel can contribute to redesigning a better way to live a just and
egalitarian society, from the small communities to large nations.

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By Leefeller, September 18, 2010 at 7:27 am Link to this comment

A little bible talk?

So it seems Lazarus may have been a nice beggar slave?

“As a matter of fact, in Luke 16: 19-31, just the opposite is designated: Lazarus was a beggar (slave) of the rich man and he was now enjoying the pleasures of heaven while ‘the elite man’ was anguishing in torment.”

My experience with the bible is purely physical instead of spiritual,..... only because after my wife ran off with the bible salesman,  she left quite a huge bunch of them behind.  So, with all those bibles laying around, I needed to find a use for them. 
For many years I had thought my wife was a member of the book of the week club, at the time I did not know they were bibles.  Some of the bibles look the same as the next but many look so different. Especially the big ones, though I became sort of suspicious with what I thought were Dictionaries like you see at the Library sitting all around the house!  So I asked my wife why she needed so many Dictionaries?.... well she said; ...... intelligent people have one in every room and she wanted us to be even more intelligent for when company came a visiting, so two or three in every room would be even better!

Well after they ran off together, I had to find a use for all those bibles! Besides, discovering they make great coasters for Tequila bottles, I found if I opens them about half way the smaller ones serve as doilies,  I don’t never recommend using bibles as door stops, especially the larger ones, they can loom out at you in the dark and seem to always be in the way, especially after consuming a couple of Tequilas, I found those damn bibles can really jump out at you!

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By radson, September 18, 2010 at 7:14 am Link to this comment

Hello Shen and all TDers

In order to get started with this endeavor, the realization that the American system of governance is beginning to fail ,must be put into perspective.It has become obvious that the Lobbyists have undermined
the established Democratic principles of the Nation .The buying out of Congress and the Senate by the corporations has played its role and it continues without regard to the oaths necessary
to hold high office ,which in itself is an act of dishonor .The Founding Fathers were aware of the allocation of too much power towards the masses in the advice of Madison ,which is understandable in a
sense ,yet the Constitution was written to inhibit usurpation by greedy manipulators ,that thought only of themselves and neglected the populace .What is being evidenced today is a near complete
amnesia towards the constituents in the name of Corporations influenced by Corporate Lobbyists and the revolving door of the White House ,which is always open for the Hoodlums of big business.Is it
possible that the American Citizens are so blinded by the MSM and the False Spectacle of creative marketing / propaganda,that they have become more numb than the German Citizens of the last great war.Several commenter’s have mentioned that the Constitution is in grave danger and I must concur ,because a corporation IS NOT a Person ,which leads also to the conclusion that the Highest Courts in the
land are also failing.The American Constitution was the first of its kind in the world followed closely in second place by the Polish Constitution (which was the first in ) Europe ,which despicably led to the final
Partition of Polska and an end of the first Polish Republic ,hence the importance of the Document.

Perpetual warfare to maintain an economy is folly and the excuses for maintaining it also .The repetitious argument that the high-tech sector must flower through conflict is a false front for the MIC and the continuous feeding
of the beast through exploitation and conflict .Does the high-tech sector really require wars to develop ,has the US become so reliant on War ,that it must create enemies to function,is it possible to have
high-tech flourish without mass murder and destruction.When Bill Gates was interested in Jared Diamonds’ theory of competition and innovations based on the Western European Model of Industrialization and as it turned out continuous warfare,which led to many innovations and inventions due to the necessity for survival he didn’t have to kill anybody ,all that was required was a competitive atmosphere amongst the employees.

The environment which is of vital importance for the continuation not only of the Human Species but also of all other life forms ,which in essence is all interconnected is being blatantly disregarded in the
name of ‘profit’ the destruction of the Gulf is but one example, there are many more .A difficult choice will have to be made in this regard -which is simple -in itself ,but complicated when the economy is factored
in ,hence the stalemates that have occurred time and again.The problem is obviously the economic models in use today which are not self-sufficient or sustainable ,but based on continuous growth ,that is
why the ‘bubble’ has burst on many occasions and will continue to do so with mathematical certainty.

Man has been on the Moon ,yet the significance of the photographs have not been fully appreciated ,someone please send the richest Barons of the World there :why because they will see for themselves
first hand what Planet Earth will look like if the path that we are on is not changed.

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By ardee, September 18, 2010 at 7:07 am Link to this comment

archivesDave, September 18 at 2:12 am

Interesting your concern for accuracy re: citing the new testament, coupled with your complete disinterest in doing the same for the koran…Can you cite such a passage as you ascribe to Islam?

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By archivesDave, September 17, 2010 at 10:12 pm Link to this comment

N-G:
Your statement:
“The enslaved were even going to wait hand and foot on their masters forever in Heaven too.”

Kindly show me this one anywhere in the N.T., even some hint by Christ or His desciples.  I’m sure we can find it in the Koran tho.

As a matter of fact, in Luke 16: 19-31, just the opposite is designated: Lazarus was a beggar (slave) of the rich man and he was now enjoying the pleasures of heaven while ‘the elite man’ was anguishing in torment.

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By BR549, September 17, 2010 at 10:05 pm Link to this comment

Shen,

Am printing all this out so I can sit down with it tomorrow and absorb it. Thanks
for the effort.

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By Shenonymous, September 17, 2010 at 10:05 pm Link to this comment

radson-”Where this will lead to is anyone’s guess” Including
mine.  It won’t hurt to “kick” it around some more.  It isn’t like we
have somewhere better to go…for answers, that is.

1. Social capital/Socialized capitalism
So glad you feel that way radson.  While it may seem like I have
discussed this idea at length and depth, I can assure you I am also
limping along as it is dark territory into which I have braved only a
short distance.  I only present it here because first of all I am interested
and there are some fine minds that can contribute towards building
perhaps a new approach to the serious problems we Americans face,
working with our rational faculties.  I am of the belief that all the
emotional expressions that polkadot these forums are
counterproductive to creating something better. 

The term “a third way” seems to be gaining buzzword status and that
might make the effort to seek a new way appear to be only a frolic of a
philosophical exercise.  I hope not in this case because progress is
never gained without taking a new path.  What I am suggesting is a
synthesis, meaning taking what is already there but in a sort of
economic theory graveyard, and combining them in ways that are a
better life-giving positive.

Since this is a complex project, and not amenable to a summary
approach, I am trying to think through the idea enough to present it in
as succinct but as cogent a way as I can.  That in itself takes a great
deal of thought.  I will have to present what I think are salient aspects
in increments since I am physically exhausted from the week’s work. But
it will take a few posts to do it reasonably.

What America is experiencing cannot be denied as the political
alienation of its citizens.  The tendency of the people’s disengagement
from institutional politics is so serious that one might diagnose it as an
inexorable political stagnation.  Social capital theory (socialized
capitalism as it might also be called) is conspicuous in this regard in
that it has significant implications for political and economic
reinvigoration.  It is able to mobilize alienated citizens and oil the
wheels of a different kind of political operation in a society that has
become almost crippled in self-determination.  Social capital theory
depends on two principal components:  social networks established by
associational engagement such as voluntary organizations and
reciprocal norms and trust between citizens.

On the face of it, and to some degree it has already been tarnished by
Anarcissie’s sense of history, one might too quickly conclude that there
is not much that is different from the pluralist theories in the 1960s. 
Also social movement theories in the 1980s had all identified the
positive impact of social groups, such as interest groups and civic
organizations, intending to facilitate political participation.  It is just
possible though that what makes social capital theory distinct is that it
can extract political consequences from non-political social
interactions.

Social capital theory focuses on a broad spectrum of social groups,
including the strong ties of family, friends, and, most importantly,
community involvement.  All these social groups are believed to
function as an instructive process providing civic skills and generally
tending to reinvigorate political life one way or another.  The idea of
trust is the most remarkable theorization of social capital.

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By Shenonymous, September 17, 2010 at 9:59 pm Link to this comment

2. Social capital/socialized capitalism
Social networks are said to engender reciprocal norms and trust in
other people, and such trust is considered another core element of
political revitalization and effective governance, resulting in
democratic stability.

The decline of both social trust between citizens and erosion of
political trust of those who are supposed to represent the welfare
of the citizenry, likely has an important attitude on the decline in
electoral participation and can possibly account for the decreasing
interest in the general public’s desire to vote.  The regeneration of
social trust is, therefore, believed to increase voting turnout and other
modes of civic participation in politics.  However, to expect a revival of
civic participation in conventional politics such as voting, trust in
political institutions rather than the generalized social trust is
presumably a necessary condition.

No doubt political trust is different from social trust.  Can it stand to
reason that with an increase in social trust there would be better
assessment of political candidates thereby increasing political trust?

People intentionally build their interrelations for the benefits that such
interaction would bring later.  Seems normal.

What has to be understood is the interaction between money capital and
social capital.  Forms of capital are what is called fungible, that is, they
can be traded for each other and actually require such trades for their
development. 

Social capital of any significance can seldom be acquired, for example,
without the investment of some material resources and the possession
of some cultural knowledge, enabling individuals to establish relations
with others.

What is social capital, and how is it produced?  How does social capital
become relevant to political participation?  What role do social networks
play in creating and sustaining politically relevant social capital?  These
are all crucial questions if we are to seriously consider socialized
capitalism as a realistic economic program.

First of all social capital basically boils down to networks, norms, and
trust.  Social capital is assigned as a trust in social relations, as civic
involvement and commitment through participation in voluntary
associations as a kind of social fabric that creates a willingness to
cooperate in the development of physical capital.  Looked at beyond
first glance, networks prove dense and valuable, norms that pervade
individual actions and social relations, and trust appears psychologically
intricate.

Like any form of capital, such as human or physical, social capital
assists future productivity of individuals and groups in civil societies
otherwise called communities.  It is said not mainly economically, but in
its new incarnation economics figures predominantly.  It is a network of
associations, activites, and relations that bind people together as a
community through certain standards called norms and psychological
capacities such as trust, all of which are essential to produce a civil
society and a productive future collective eco-political action much in
the same manner of other forms of capital.  One excellent and primary
financial model of social capital is the existence of credit unions. 
Collective action is at the core of the management of natural and
manmade resources.  Cooperatives and other local civic associations
would also play an important role.

To be continued.  Eyes are at half mast.  Please make any comments or
ask any questions that we can search together to see if this idea has
any worth.

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By radson, September 17, 2010 at 8:34 pm Link to this comment

Night Gaunt

Tnx for your interest .Where this will lead to is anyone’s guess

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By Night-Gaunt, September 17, 2010 at 8:30 pm Link to this comment

Jesus never spoke out against slavery in general, just getting out from under the yoke of the Romans in his time. The enslaved were even going to wait hand an foot on their masters forever in Heaven too.

How often do I hear about how exceptional the USA is and its people are blessed by God for that. And other such stuff even now. That is certainly a Christian idea as they are favored by their god to be the elect/elite in the first place. Remember what I said and you ignored? There are no elections in the Bible, any who are put into power are there at God’s will, not the people’s.

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By archivesDave, September 17, 2010 at 8:22 pm Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt:
Your statement, “However the Christian elements I do see that poisoned the Great Experiment from the beginning was slavery and exceptionalism of the elect (elite) over everyone else.”
I don’t know what “Christian New Testiment Bible” u’ve been reading but Christ NEVER endorsed or supported slavery as mankind (and quasi christians) thru the ages have tried to make Him say thru their own interpretations…. Even Hitler and Stalin used Jesus’ teachings for their own nefarious tactics.

And your statement “exceptionalism of the elect (elete)” sounds like it came from Marx or Lenin.
That’s just plain bogus and essentially discloses that you have never seriously studied simple little books like John which is, sort of the Bible condensed down to Cliff Notes.

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By Leefeller, September 17, 2010 at 8:09 pm Link to this comment

She for what is worth, I also along with Radison will be looking forward to your next installment on communitarian capitalism.

Archives Dave and BR549, thanks for the links and information, I checked out Alex and found myself in agreement with some of his comments, especially found interesting, his commentary on government and special interests attempt to control the news back in the early 20th century by instituting press pools, was fascinating, (this was at the same time the good old corporate boys were gathering public opinion against the unions) as for global vs nations, I already consider it a given plus I am not into the conspiracy stuff. Alex seems to fill a void and in my mind the jury is still out, I will check out some more of his commentary. so thanks again for the connection.

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By Night-Gaunt, September 17, 2010 at 7:45 pm Link to this comment

By BR549, September 17 at 1:29 pm Link to this comment

NG,

At least we agree on the Stick Up window.

Why are you always taking my stuff out of context and twisting it? Where did I say that the bible was quoted in the Constitution?

Now it is your turn to garble what I said. I didn’t say the “Bible was quoted in the Constitution,” I said you wouldn’t find anything like the Constitution/Bill of Rights in the Bible—the core elements aren’t there as I listed and you ignored. As I said it is about theocracy. Not a secular republic. Our gov’t has more in common with the Greeks and the Algonquins than 1st century Israel. However the Christian elements I do see that poisoned the Great Experiment from the beginning was slavery and exceptionalism of the elect (elite) over everyone else. All the writing about the “consent of the governed ” was highly limited to mostly white, male, land owning men. It is the succeeding generations that have enlarged it to encompass more, but it is still not complete.

Where have Maddow & Goodman fallen behind? Your peculiar phraseology over them intrigues me. How have you left them behind? As if now they don’t cover the news anymore as before, having now nothing to offer you on any topic? You can keep it short and succinct for your answer. Because right now your answer is obtuse and illogical to me. So indulge just a bit of your time on this can of worms you opened up with a casual remark.

I have toyed with the idea of a more socialized Capitalist structure but not much detail. I too will be learning on the fly!

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By radson, September 17, 2010 at 6:45 pm Link to this comment

Shen

Thnx for the intro and the invitation ,although I must make clear at the outset ,that this is a new topic for me yet at the same time ,the challenge is inviting. As a mutual consensus ,it can be stated that we are
both in accord with the reality that the existing systems in themselves have proven to be inadequate with regards to the challenges facing Humanity . The questions that arise may seem as a burden at times
but that should be expected ,considering the subject matter .Shen you have discussed this material in length and in depth ,therefore its going to be a learn -on the fly - adaptation for me ,but the interest and
intrigue is there .

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By archivesDave, September 17, 2010 at 5:38 pm Link to this comment

Leefeller et al:

Definitely check out Webster Tarpley too!!!!

Here’s a pretty good clip of Alex Jones interviewing Dick Gregory, etc.:
Why Glenn Beck is headed to become the most dangerous man in America…‘lumbochfow’ (laughing under my breath or crying, haven’t figured out which..)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esHVac9WjCE&feature=related

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By Shenonymous, September 17, 2010 at 2:58 pm Link to this comment

radson, as promised:  Assuming everyone knows and understands
what socialism and capitalism are in terms of economic systems,
obviously neither of these systems has worked and a new system
is our imperative. 

It was suggested by a Truthdigger that socialized capitalism could fill
the bill.  Intrigued and starting from a base of ignorance, I looked into
it since I was not a student of economics and only had one college
political science class. As an American who is firmly in the lower end
of the middle class I have a stake in what happens to this country.  I
wouldn’t say I have great understanding of it but I have more than
I did.

The idea of communitarian capitalism was suggested as a possible
euphemism that could find traction in the mind of a public that might
find the words socialism or communism repugnant.  The word
communitarian is a clue to its genesis.

To fund a socialized capitalism economic system in the way it would
most benefit the general society, social capital becomes the revenue
stream.  We need to say what social capital means because from the
forum where this was discussed it was apparent no one had a clear
idea.  More research was needed.  Anarcissie had incisive questions that
were never really answered adequately by ThomasG.  But I did copious
reading and offered what I could fathom it was.  TG seemed to think I
was on the right track.  But I don’t hold TG up as the end authority. 
Besides he bailed out on the forum so there you go.  That does not
mean the idea has no merit and ought to be left in the dust.  We have
to do our own homework and come to our own rational conclusions. 

I doubt there is a conscious mind in this entire country who doesn’t
believe that it needs a new direction in its economic foundation. 
Capitalism under the present power structure does next to nothing for
ordinary Americans, the middle class and the poor.  It is obvious from
what is coming out of the mouths of the freaky fanatical Republicans
who are taking over the Grand Old Party every day all day long that
ordinary Americans are not their concern and this radicalism is being
given sanction by the grayheads that used to run the Party. 

So the people must take matters into their own hands without
destroying the principles that make this country unique on the planet. 
But the people do not know how to do it, they do not know their own
strength, and maybe most of them don’t even know they can act on
their own behalf.  It will take determination to get them educated and a
clear plan that is easily understood and easily implemented.  It will take
some individuals who understand how the new system can work and
who can and will lead the communities into self-reliance and a better
life.  No one has to retreat to the woods or take up arms and shoot
anyone. It will be like a phage that will eat current privatized capitalism
from its periphery.

I am proposing a serious look at socialized capitalism because at its
foundation is action by the people for the people side-stepping the
privatized capitalist structure that is in place and eventually once the
new movement gets its stable walking legs, privatized capitalism will
dwindle to a negligible action as far as controlling the country.  It could
even disappear, but realistically that is unlikely.  It will be neutralized
and the people will run its own country. The Republicans will no longer
be able to call it “Their” country. But it will take herculean strength that
is generated from within the general public.  You know the wealthy
class and corporations have an iron stranglehold on all of the people. 
The beauty of this new movement is that it can begin to work
ostensibly at once.

Next post I will lay out what I understand this possible new approach to
be beginning with a definition as best as I can put it.  I continue to
welcome Anarcissie’s insights and skeptical inquiry.

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By Shenonymous, September 17, 2010 at 1:43 pm Link to this comment

Interesting comments on Constitution Day.  Doesn’t look like
anyone on TD even was conscious enough to know it.  How
funny.

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By Leefeller, September 17, 2010 at 11:06 am Link to this comment

Br549,

Appreciate your comments will give it a try, by the way bother Clyde did not receive a degree in Continuation Law, like we were told Obama did?

By the way, my uncle Otto once bought a car from a guy named Junior Samples!

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By BR549, September 17, 2010 at 9:29 am Link to this comment

NG,

At least we agree on the Stick Up window.

Why are you always taking my stuff out of context and twisting it? Where did I
say that the bible was quoted in the Constitution? I never did, yet the
Constitution contains nearly the same set of civic values that the Bible did and
as Locke had elaborated on in his discussion on common and natural law. Try
reading Locke. You’ll be surprised. One doesn’t have to be a rocket scientist to
understand that if everyone has inalienable rights, they can’t just go out and
shoot their neighbor. That whole ‘noblesse oblige’ thing pops up again on the
smaller scale, since possessing power as individual sovereigns bears with it a
higher level of social responsibility. What a concept.

One also doesn’t have to be a bible thumper to appreciate why allowing oneself
to covet can be a problem, or why respecting ones elders might have some
long term social benefit.

My mention of Maddow should have included Amy Goodman as well and I
should have listed them separately. My bad, however, they have both fallen
behind. What can I say? Their styles are professional and I used to listen to
them both every day, but it doesn’t change things. They’ve both fallen behind.

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By Night-Gaunt, September 17, 2010 at 9:08 am Link to this comment

Alex is a hard core Constitutionalist. As a citizen of the United States, nothing comes before the Constitution; well, maybe the bible, but then the Constitution takes much of its meat from John Locke and the bible.-BR549

Care to give a Bible quote or two on that? I like saying you won’t find the Bill of Rights or the Constitution in the Bible and I mean it.

Democracy? No. Freedom of speech? No. Freedom to associate? Also no. A Republican form of gov’t? Again a vociferous no. If Locke used the Bible at all I would be surprised unless it was a negative example. Our godless Constitution is an example of where you are wrong. And Jones too if he puts the Bible above the Constitution/Bill of Rights here as the law of the land. That’s what our enemies the oligarchs & their wannabes do.

He and I differ on a few points, but he is so far ahead of Beck, Limbaugh, O’Reilly, and Maddow that they are left having to pick up the crumbs of his topics.-BR549

I don’t appreciate you lumping a superlative person like Maddow and her journalism with those hacks of the Reich wing. Not the same or equivalent. I don’t expect you to prove that either, you just lump because its easy. And the criterion of if they don’t support your conspiracy ideas then that puts me in that group too.

PS- that Stick Up window is a pain in the ass. It won’t stay away!

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By BR549, September 17, 2010 at 8:56 am Link to this comment

Lee,

Points well noted, but I do detect a bit of cynicism?

Obama apparently claims to be a Constitutional scholar, yet he totally failed
to grasp what its meaning was. Your brother Clyde may be well versed in it as
well, I don’t know, but as with Obama, just because someone reads the book
doesn’t mean they understood it. Maybe Clyde does.

The whole issue about individual and state sovereignty is the key that unlocks
the power of that document, and yet even by the Civil War, the same evil forces
from the Motherland had been hard at work trying to undermine its strength.

If you listen to Jones with the idea of it being just once, I can guaranty you that
you probably won’t be listening twice. You’d want to listen to Paul Chapman,
Dr. Paul Craig Roberts, Catherine Austin-Fitts, Gerald Celente; the list is
enormous.

I only brought up the bible because it has, like the other religions, some very
wise passages. I am not a practicing anything, although I can still read it and
decipher its meaning without going off and sacrificing myself to join some
Bush-Family jihad and killing other people in the name of God.

An economist friend of mine follows Jones with regularity and he has been spot
on with his predictions for over five years straight. Who do you think I’m going
to listen to? Obama? Bush? Clinton? Geittner or Bernancke?

In this day and age, with such a wide diversity in educational backgrounds,
reaching a broad audience spectrum becomes a challenge and no one’s that
charismatic that they can reach out to everyone. We see these self-proclaimed
intellectuals on various lists that deride anyone who can’t keep up with them,
yet make no attempt to understand that the people in the slums have just as
powerful vote as they do. Jones appeals to a rather wide array of listeners if not
through his style (which doesn’t always resonate with me) or the content of his
topics and guest speakers.

Each to his own, I guess.

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By elisalouisa, September 17, 2010 at 8:47 am Link to this comment

It is difficult to put Dr. Nicholas Hagger in the same context as Alex Jones at least in seeking the public spotlight ArchivesDave. The Syndicate,  has over 100 pages of Notes and Sources so what Dr. Hagger tells us cannot be easily dismissed. The ray of hope is that the power/elite are not united in their views and the two major groups in wishing to protect and enlargen their own turf may not act in a united manner. Dr. Hagger may not one to relish the book selling circuit and thus not be that accessible when his book The World Government  comes out on November 16. Hopefully, his agent will get him on c-span. Perhaps this is even too hot a subject for that channel. I have not e-mailed him as there is something within me that wishes to give one such as Dr. Hagger his privacy.

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By Leefeller, September 17, 2010 at 8:02 am Link to this comment

Seemingly an evangelic approach to talk radio?

Must say we part company when the bible is being thumped around the room! It may have something to do with my wife running off with the bible sales man?

Being ahead of Limbaugh and company does not sound to be a glowing testimonial in my book.

May I ask, if one has not ever heard or heard of Alex, why should that mean they would not know of the inequities happening in the world?

My brother Clyde feels he is a Constitutional scholar because he has been jail a few times, but he does not have a TV or radio show, but could probably pull one off!

In all fairness, I will listen to this Alex guy once, but if I find him as I suspect, my rants could will be unparalleled, but could help me receive “The Chicken Little Award of the Year Award”.

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By BR549, September 17, 2010 at 7:11 am Link to this comment

Leefeller,

You might have missed my discussion about Alex Jones on another TD thread.
Anyway, I won’t copy that here, except to say that the whole journalistic
framework is changing as we speak and we really can’t stay glued to the
concept of Walter Cronkite as our main source of news. Cronkite, along with
many others, had a very high degree of journalistic integrity, although we will
never really know how much they had been told or forced not to report.

The political volatility of today doesn’t allow us the luxury of turning on the
news once a day or once a week and bringing ourselves up to speed with the
world’s events; not in today’s world.

I’ve been listening to Alex for several years now and have had to endure his
Limbaughesque rants, but he has taken much of his listener’s criticism to heart
and those rants are become far less frequent. All that aside, he has been
literally years ahead of the MSM in reporting issues of relevance. Those who
haven’t yet figured out how to listen to him usually categorize him with the
National Enquirer and three headed baby articles, but that isn’t the case at all.

Being one of the first to dive into any subject almost always leaves some loose
ends, but I would rather be aware of the events and put them on a back
burner, than have to wait for the world to collapse while the old school
journalists are still wondering if reporting on some topic will step on some
politician’s toes.

Alex is a hard core Constitutionalist. As a citizen of the United States, nothing
comes before the Constitution; well, maybe the bible, but then the Constitution
takes much of its meat from John Locke and the bible. I guess we should start
asking ourselves why so many of our population are so removed from the
meaning of that document. To Alex, it’s an everyday discussion and while he
may SOUND like a redneck, he can amaze the crap out you when he starts
getting into his philosophic side.

He and I differ on a few points, but he is so far ahead of Beck, Limbaugh,
O’Reilly, and Maddow that they are left having to pick up the crumbs of his
topics. By the time the others have picked up on the hot topics, Alex has
already been discussing them, usually a year or more ago. He does a wonderful
job at connecting the dots.

When he gets going on a potential rant day, I sometimes have to turn him off,
quite honestly, but the next day he’ll have some bullet-proof interview with
some foreign dignitary or some whistle-blower who had chosen Alex’s show to
get the truth out.

There are many many sources of news in today’s climate and one can only sift
through them as best they can to get the answers they’re after. Alex ain’t
perfect, but I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/

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By elisalouisa, September 17, 2010 at 6:33 am Link to this comment

Good points Anarcissie. I would assume those attempting such a change are aware of the risks involved and the financial outlay necessary. It certainly is not a decision to be taken lightly. Those I knew who chose this path were familiar with farming, carpentry, etc. The women knew how to preserve food by canning and also other means. They could sew and knit. Such skills may make a difference as to survival in time to come. Certainly there are many pros and cons that must be explored before attempting such a venture. Capital outlay is also a requisite. From what I have seen, materialism as a way of life is more evident in countries such as the U.S.; some may find foreign lands where other values are also in the foreground more attractive. At least, this is what I have been told by some who have chosen to relocate in other lands.

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By archivesDave, September 17, 2010 at 4:41 am Link to this comment

Leefeller:

Here is BR549’s statement I was referring to:


“As more and information is coming out and at a blistering rate, people no longer have the luxury of being naive and claiming to be uninformed. They
must take a stand if they want any future for their grandchildren. Sitting by and anesthetizing themselves with American Idol and Monday Night Football are no longer viable options and if they continue to do so, yes, they are guilty. Once
they know something is wrong and then choose to ignore it ...........”

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By archivesDave, September 17, 2010 at 4:35 am Link to this comment

Leefeller:

“Obviously I do not know an ass from a hole in the ground, because I never heard of Alex Jones or Tarpley,  but…... I have heard of Hitler.”

As BR549 so succinctly and wisely put it Leefeller,
TIME’S AWAISTING…‘git busy livin’ or git busy dyin’” 
You got some catchin’ up to do….FAST!!!

Go to youtube and search Webster Tarpley, then on to
Alex Jones…Here’s a start:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbmTwSQA_9Y

http://geraldcelentechannel.blogspot.com/2010/09/webster-tarpley-world-crisis-radio.html

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By truedigger3, September 17, 2010 at 1:27 am Link to this comment

Re: By BR549, September 17 at 12:28 am

BR549 wrote:
“This is why the concepts of the IRS and Social Security were later developed to TRY to circumvent the Constitution, and in fact they are in violation of it,”
————————————————————

If the Constitution is really against the concepts of IRS and Social Security, especially Social Security, then the Constitution needs a new amendment to move with the times and the new realities and requirements.
The constitution is not a product of Nature, but is man made, and man is not infallible.
But as you said, integrity is the basic requirement for any endeavour, and if the amendment is done with integrity to benefit ALL the people and not used as a mean to gain an advantage for the elites, then everything will be A Okay.

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By Leefeller, September 17, 2010 at 12:44 am Link to this comment

archivesDave

Obviously I do not know an ass from a hole in the ground, because I never heard of Alex Jones or Tarpley,  but…... I have heard of Hitler.

Must apologize though, .....my Republican Rant was a response to seek something or someone to blame, because I do not have any animosity towards gays or illegal aliens maybe I can work on it?  I feel blame is something used to guide one in substantiating a cause, well….before becoming full fledged card carrying fanatics

Sometimes the irony of it all, even evades me!

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By Anarcissie, September 16, 2010 at 9:28 pm Link to this comment

elisalouisa—Going to a foreign country and establishing oneself there is a very expensive and laborious proposition.  I speak from experience and direct observation.  I knew several people who moved to Canada from the U.S. because they could not in good conscience allow their sons to be threatened with the Draft, knowing what they knew about the way the war in Vietnam was rigged up.  One of them told me that it cost about $10,000 a head to become a poor Canadian farmer—and that was in 1968, when $10,000 was serious money.  Plus, they were resented as immigrants always are.  It would probably be tougher and more expensive now.  It might be much more worthwhile to look around your locality and see what can be done with what you’ve got at hand.  A certain amount of analysis will tell you that whatever is happening here is happening there, anyway.  Escape or fight where you know the turf.

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By BR549, September 16, 2010 at 8:28 pm Link to this comment

There is no way to support the both Patriot Act and the Constitution, NOT when
we fabricated one phony war after another to blaze a path toward martial law,
intentionally.

Politicians have to be forced to address these issues on camera and in front of
the American people. All the tax cuts and BS about another meaningless Health
Care initiative are just more smoke and mirrors designed to give lip service and
make the bovine population believe that something of substance is actually
taking place on the debate stage.

Financial reform would come automatically with the discussion of the
Constitution as I specified in my prior post, but I honestly do not think that
anything meaningful would become of it if it was a talking point of its own?
IMHO.

There is no dancing around the concept of individual and state sovereignty.
These two phrases are just a bunch of words to most people but they are the
very basis for the people to stay in control of their government. As it stands
now, politicians for well over 100 years have attempted to subvert the
Constitution by trying to convince the people to give up those rights. They’ve
been doing this since before we were born and yet every one of them has been
in violation of the very document they swore to uphold. If they want a
totalitarian state, then they must see how effective they are at getting the
military to roust their mothers and fathers out of the homes they grew up in.

One way to avoid that is to get so many of our military engaged in bullshit
activities across the globe while the politicians make plans for reinforcements
from the U.N. Don’t think so? Romanian “peace keepers” got care one bit about
rousting your grandmother out of her chair while she’s watching Final Jeopardy.

One either adheres to the Constitution or they are in violation of it. The people
are always to be the beneficiary, not the government. This is why the concepts
of the IRS and Social Security were later developed to TRY to circumvent the
Constitution, and in fact they are in violation of it, and since the Constitution is
THE superior governing document, politicians who continue to intimidate the
population into submission are guilty of using the Constitution to further their
own power and personal ends.

As more and information is coming out and at a blistering rate, people no
longer have the luxury of being naive and claiming to be uninformed. They
must take a stand if they want any future for their grandchildren. Sitting by and
anesthetizing themselves with American Idol and Monday Night Football are no
longer viable options and if they continue to do so, yes, they are guilty. Once
they know something is wrong and then choose to ignore it ...........

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By Night-Gaunt, September 16, 2010 at 7:51 pm Link to this comment

I agree, that and to weaken the corporate grip on our gov’t—-the 6 mega-corps who do. The few politicians who aren’t under their control can’t fight it alone. Too bad that too many of the Democrats are also poisoned by the corporate parasite. We need to back those who aren’t. No chance of a Republican being that way. Still a slim chance with the Democrats, but we are running out of time.

Don’t know how much longer our economy can stand the pressure. If it falls it could mean the fall of our Republic and the fascists coming out of the closet to rule directly.

See:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9147881

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By archivesDave, September 16, 2010 at 7:30 pm Link to this comment

BR549:
Good ideas BR but NOTHING’s gonna happen from my perspective until we get CAMPAIGN/LOBBYING FINANCIAL REFORM…and I mean DRASTIC!

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By BR549, September 16, 2010 at 7:09 pm Link to this comment

Everyone is bringing up valid points and I wish people had bothered to read the rest of my last post before having this incessant need to foam at the mouth.

If the people are guilty of anything, it was putting their faith into a band of sociopaths that had sworn an oath to protect the Constitution, when all were thinking about was protecting their own elitist lifestyle of having everyone else in the population fund their individual gravy trains. Those politicians, not all, but most of them, have violated the public trust and have for all practical purposes, committed treason by violating the Constitution and sabotaging the very country they swore to protect.

Mussolini tried that stunt and wound up doing inversion therapy, upside down, with a unique form of personal air conditioning. Our legislature should bear that in mind. Nothing is permanent, including politicians’ jobs and the public’s belief that they are powerless to do anything about it.

All these politicians have to do is come clean, embrace the Constitution, repeal that stupid excuse for a Patriot Act, reinstate Posse Comitatus, begin to educate the public about the beauty of both individual and state sovereignty, and teach the people as Switzerland has done, why everyone should know how to fire a firearm. As long as politicians are working for the people and doing so honestly, no one gives a rat’s ass who is in office, but if they have some other sinister and secretive agenda, maybe they do have a need to be afraid.

For all you idiots in Washington who still haven’t gotten the message and have thus far failed to grow a set of testicles ..... think Mussolini. That might become incentive enough to light a fire under your asses so we citizens can get our country back on track toward the world respected democracy it once was. Nothing personal, it’s just business. We know you guys understand that concept.

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By elisalouisa, September 16, 2010 at 7:09 pm Link to this comment

Your post is correct on all counts Anarcissie. Some have followed the cooperative venture and relocated in New Zealand utilizing what the earth gives back.  It is difficult and such ventures do not have the hype of a capital outlay. It is not for everyone. Still, as uncertain as the future is and if things continue to deteriorate, the more adventerous might consider such an undertaking.

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By Anarcissie, September 16, 2010 at 6:32 pm Link to this comment

elisalouisa, September 16 at 9:47 pm:

‘... Relocation as a group (cooperative?) with other like minded people would be a possibility if one were just getting started in life and might in the long run prove to be a wise decision.’

You can also start where you are and see what’s around you.  Often you will find many forms of cooperatives already in operation.  If not, you can bring the idea up with people you meet. 

For the most part, I leave going off into the woods with hardy fellow communards to the young, although sometimes they can use the help of their cranky elders.

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By elisalouisa, September 16, 2010 at 5:47 pm Link to this comment

Right on radson. A sentence from Chris Hedges’ last paragraph:
Hope is a word that is applicable only to those who grasp reality, however bleak, and do something meaningful to fight back—which does not include the farce of elections and involvement in mainstream political parties.
The “farce of elections,” those are strong words, especially considering most of the posts on these websites. I just happen to agree with Mr. Hedges. As to fighting back, at one time we could do that with our vote, that option is no longer there as our vote really doesn’t bring about change. Labor has lost its power and strikes are no longer part of our landscape. Relocation as a group (cooperative?) with other like minded people would be a possibility if one were just getting started in life and might in the long run prove to be a wise decision. My information is limited on this subject and perhaps other posters can further elaborate.

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By archivesDave, September 16, 2010 at 5:08 pm Link to this comment

Leefeller:
“If I have to blame anyone, I blame the Republicans for their God (god) given ability to prompt stupidity from within their ranks and ask this important question, ....should they be allowed to have off-spring’s?”

Well, Leefeller, I trust your “off spring” remark was tongue in cheek unless Hitler is your idol.

Irregardless, you’ve fallen into the same rut*
the Conservatives, Republicans and Teapartiers have plummeted into…
Just keep it up, as the Globalist Bastards continue with their conquest: They’ve got u on their ‘team’.

Do u REALLY think Alex Jones is full of horse pucky? Have u even attempted to conscientiously listen to what he and folks like Tarpley are attempting to convey?

* Rut:  Essentially a grave with the ends out.

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By JimmyP333, September 16, 2010 at 4:38 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Most of the intellectual blather being spouted by you liberal and conservative pinheads makes me want to puke..Look assholes, Kapitalism by any other name is still fucking KAPITALISM, period. Trying to put a human face on it is like putting lipstick on a pig.

Kapitalism is nothing more than organized crime that’s legal, powerful, and in control but far and away more sinister, ruthless, and deadlier than anything this planet and all life on it has ever faced.

Anyone who thinks that they can work within this evil, corrupt and broken system to try and
reform it is just kidding themselves. Kapitalism is like a ravenous Hydra - with a thousand heads and tentacles, devising more innovative ways to devour those of us who resist and enslave who’s left.

Before the crazed corporatocracy in this country and all their minions in control around the world take us over the edge and into the abyss, there is a solution..We can join together in a worldwide solidarity movement of mass civil disobedience and make it clear as Peter Finch did that “We’re mad as hell and we’re not gonna take it any more!!!”

As for those who like to take cheap shots at Chris Hedges, he’s on the money everytime with his articles and is like a couragious voice in the wilderness trying to wake us out of our coma as he speaks truth to power!

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By Leefeller, September 16, 2010 at 4:26 pm Link to this comment

If I have to blame anyone, I blame the Republicans for their God (god) given ability to prompt stupidity from within their ranks and ask this important question, ....should they be allowed to have off-spring’s?

Of course, blame the American people for the opportunists talking them to the cleaners,  this sounds just like blaming the rape victim for walking down the street or anyone being mugged
for having a wallet!

By the way I do not hate Republicans, though they certainly seem deserving of being despised for the vermin they are! The Republicans keep saying they know what the American people want and need and should be allowed to have!  I say give the Republicans their weekly High Colionc ...... “Do not eat for two hours before your colonic appointment. Clients typically can return to their normal stupidity within 10 minutes after session.” ...but one shouldn’t let it go to their heads!

Where in hell is GRYM when you need him?

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By radson, September 16, 2010 at 3:11 pm Link to this comment

Elisalouisa

I enjoyed your latest post and the bottom line is that the Governing system has been hijacked ,usurped etc.No system is infallible ,as powerful as the US may be it has been supplanted from within ,mind you
it took a long time to achieve, but can now be categorized as a fait accompli.

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By elisalouisa, September 16, 2010 at 2:25 pm Link to this comment

The power/corporate/elite have seized our government to promote their interests. American voters are not culpable in this respect, in fact, they are the victims. Politicians are bought and paid for by the underlying corporate power structure which has hijacked our political system, BR549. The corporate state, whose interests are being championed by tea party leaders such as Palin and Dick Armey, is working hard to make sure the anger of the movement is directed toward government rather than corporations and Wall Street. Politicians take no responsibility for the present state of the union, nor does Wall Street or the power/corporate/elite. Blaming the American people is the perfect solution.  How can the culpable protest?  Don’t fall for it.

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By ardee, September 16, 2010 at 2:19 pm Link to this comment

diamond, September 14 at 5:22 pm


I am sorry but I must note that I find your screed decrying any vote not cast for the Democrats to be about as unrealistic and out of touch with the current realities as to be almost incredibly naive or agendized.

We have had two years of a Democratic President and a majority of Democrats in Congress. In that time frame we have seen a tepid and emasculated Health Care Bill passed into law, but its provisions are set for far in the future and its only guarantees are for more and higher profits for the industry.In almost every other instance we see Bush policies retained, war continued, rendition and torture go on, Guantanamo remaining in business, the middle east even more estranged than ever before, corporations thriving and working class people absolutely not thriving. This past month alone there were almost one half million foreclosures nationwide. Two years and counting.

To expect reasonable folks to believe that voting ones conscience is a bad idea is, in itself, a bad idea. To continue to vote the same way and expect differing results is madness I fear. As someone once noted, a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. I believe that step is the acceptance of third party politics. Further I am rather tired of the argument that voting for C is a vote for B, it is clearly a vote for C, obviously enough.

You fear a republican majority, you fear another republican President yet all evidence points clearly to the fact that we have currently a republican President and Congress is run by the GOP minority. Perhaps we will find an awakening of our lethargic and so easily manipulated electorate under the GOP, we certainly cannot point to the democratic rule as anything worth bragging about.

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By Anarcissie, September 16, 2010 at 2:18 pm Link to this comment

I think we do have to guess that people are choosing what they want, or think they want.  If they are being misled by the media, those media are what they have chosen.

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By Shenonymous, September 16, 2010 at 2:08 pm Link to this comment

”The American voters have only themselves to blame for the ?current
situation,…”
  Poor bastard American voters.  Every election the same
refrain is moaned about how they are to blame for situations.  Check
out MSM or partisan shock jocks and they are gleeful to give you the
gift of their analyses as to why voters don’t vote and why they are to
blame for situations.

When politicians show themselves to be calibanimals, blame the ignorant
and lethargic voters.

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By BR549, September 16, 2010 at 10:50 am Link to this comment

Lafayette, September 16 at 5:52 am

You are correct. The American voters have only themselves to blame for the
current situation, however, because of that very level of complexity you
suggested, the resultant time lag in effecting any meaningful corrections takes
far too long within the level of volatility that can so easy tip the scales in the
wrong direction.

We hire (elect) these people who profess themselves to be proficient in
greasing the wheels of progress and solving the numerous societal problems,
when all these people are really capable of is mastering the art of bullshit and
clearly have little capacity to manage their own checking account. These people
are so out of touch with the world they feel competent to dominate, yet they
have no problem stepping up to the grocery register and making a complete
ass of themselves, as Bush Sr. did.

Just once, I’d like to see a member of Congress show up in bib-overalls having
come straight from the fields of his own farm. Don’t worry, I’m not holding my
breath.

But back to the issue. The system has become so large and burdened that it
only gets larger and more burdensome. It’s a dog chasing its own tail, or a
cancer. The people who vote for change have had little chance to ferret out the
impostors from the honest politicians. They have been forced to rely on those
who had taken that oath to make things better, but those oath takers betrayed
them.

Now comes the big issue. Now that it has come to the front burner, now what
are voters willing to do. If they just do not know what is happening, that can be
the result of the successful and intentional dumbing down of the population by
the legislature and the media. Any of those educational reform flag-waving
prostitutes knew what was happening but still never opened the Pandora’s Box
for the public to see. They glossed over the trivial problems to placate their
even more corrupt brethren and when someone like Ross Perot or Ron Paul
shows up, they are ridiculed or harrassed.

I would only suggest that the population has a lot of catching up to do in
realizing that they’ve been “had” in every election that can remember. The
issue for politicians is integrity, flat and simple, and were that to be addressed,
the document we have to implement in favor of the populace in the
Constitution. So, what we need to do is to pin the politicians down, to staple
those slimy bastards down through their $5,000 suits right to those cushy
chairs we’ve paid for, and force them to discuss what logic they used to veer us
so far away from the Constitution.

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By Anarcissie, September 16, 2010 at 8:45 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous—I have already done my anarchist number under this topic.

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By Shenonymous, September 16, 2010 at 7:55 am Link to this comment

Hi radson, so neat to hear from you and from what I have time to
read right now, you seem to have a good idea of what SC could be
about.  I have only come to it in the last month or two myself and
am most intrigued.  Anarcissie, and Foucauldian, ThomasG, and I
had been kicking the notion around, with A & F kicking the hardest!
All in a good spirit though as this unusual forum lacked the usual
name-calling drivel and dross that characterize most forums that is
missing self-control of the partisans and/or flamers. 

I do not have the time now to further our discussion here about
Socialized Capitalism, but the essence is that the energy and resources
are generated within societies and any revenue or production is
controlled and benefitted by the common members of that society. IT
would be in competition with classical capitalism and eventually would
supplant it because it cannot compete with socialized capitalism.  I do
have lots of research data that I am still perusing to understand it
better.  It is worth a shot, I think.  ThomasG infamous for his harsh
treatment of commenters (I used to be among them, but he has
changed his attitude towards me not surprising given my genuine
interest in his project), actually introduced the idea and it just
developed from there.  He seems to have abandoned discussion even
though I went back to the Jollimore forum and invited him to find us on
these newer forums. 

I think Anarcissie and Foucauldian had much good stuff to bring to
mind but their orientations are anarchism and socialism (French Style)
that do not appeal to me and I have expressed on that forum why.  No
need to reiterate it here at least at this time.  I’d still be willing to listen
to their arguments.  I think it is healthy to look at all sides.

I will get back to defining social capital and socialized capitalism later
this evening since I must prep for work right now.  But I did want to
respond to your most insightful post.  If you are up to it, let’s do see
where this idea can lead, without any rancor and most intelligent
approaches. Yes you are right, the idea goes back a long way, even
Dewey had a conception of it back in the 1920s-30s.

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By radson, September 16, 2010 at 7:30 am Link to this comment

Hello Shen

Tnx for the reply and forgive me if there was a touch of animosity in my last post .The passing of ‘ships in the dark’ is a nice way of putting it,but I have been reading some of your posts and your discussion
with Foucauldian ‘spell check’ was rather interesting ,although I only followed it sporadically .Nevertheless your discussion was based on Social Capitalism ,its application and the benefits for society in
general.Having read so little on the topic ,I guess it could be summarized as a hybrid system between Capitalism and Socialism with a strong emphasis on incorporating the less privileged into a more active
role in society along with the social capital that such an integration would promote.Correct me if I am wrong ,but that’s what discussions are about ,progressive discourse with the potential of learning in the process.
From what I have read this new concept has been around for quite a while ,yet the term Social Capitalism is rather recent with regards to its definition,but who coined the term is irrelevant ,its the concept that
intrigues me.What would you think of Consensual Consolidation ,whereas the communities reach a consensus in order to consolidate amongst themselves with the goal to be more self-sufficient and sustainable at their own level -meaning community-.Instead of having to rely on external sources for their existence ,which in this day and age has become precarious,although I am not suggesting that all communities would be able to function on their own without their neighboring communities.The term ‘communities’ is being implied as a city ,town or village ,what I am advocating is that sustainability at the local level should be maximized ,along with the fullest participation of its citizens and hence employing as many people to achieve this goal as possible and the same time promoting the fellowship of the inhabitants,after all
humans are social critters-hahaha I thought you would have a chuckle with that one-.Returning to the topic at hand Social Capitalism is in a sense the ‘spreading of the wealth’ more evenly aux contraire
to the three tier class system of lower ,middle and upper class which exists presently in the Capitalist system ,yet in hindsight the middle is disappearing due to the unfettered greed ,which this laissez -faire
system has unleashed upon society.Having said that, in a two tier system how would the Barons be controlled ,since the SC system stills allocates room to accommodate this class of individuals and therefore
promoting their caste ,which in essence has lead to many quagmires for the populace or is based for an easing in the transitional process.

Cheers

ps what is this GRYM thing ,did he change his pen name?

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By BR549, September 16, 2010 at 6:02 am Link to this comment

Re:  JSB, September 16 at 1:45 am

For the very reasons you suggested, those are why I had stated (on other TD threads) that even the Republican Party could be the one to heal this country (not that I have any great love for that party) ..... it just depends on which of the
parties is the first one to embrace the Constitution and dump this bullshit Patriot Act and every A-hole that still supports it.

It is the old guard on both sides of the aisle that are preventing tis country from being able to heal itself and any politician, no matter what side of the fence he is on, can get my vote if he is able to see the larger picture and remember why he would have sworn an oath.

I bought a large copy of the Constitution a few years ago and fastened it to the wall next to the toilet. While I get into one of my “reflective moments”, the Articles become more entrenched into my way of thinking and I realize why it is so important to focus on that document. Nothing else matters. Nothing really.

Individual sovereignty, that same concept that our forefathers saw as they only way around perpetual serfdom and the one that congressional interlopers have continually tried to erode, that is something everyone needs to understand. I would suggest everyone here do the same, because I think that many have dismissed the concept over time and it has lost its meaning (no offense).

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By Lafayette, September 16, 2010 at 1:52 am Link to this comment

{Do not pity Barack Obama and the Democratic Party. They will get what they deserve. They sold the citizens out for cash and power. They lied. They manipulated and deceived the public, }

Pathetic gibberish.

BO & Co did the best they could with the hand that was played in January of 2009. This sort of commentary is progressive liberalism at its worst.

If Americans want to blame someone, they should look in the mirror. Because this “democratic system” is, brick by brick, of their own making.

Besides, like most modern democracies, American voters are split down the middle in the aggregate—with swing voters having the most important influence. The American Left is probably not as insane as the Rabid Right, but neither is its impatience with reform the least bit understandable.

Reform takes time and the more complex the voter constituency the more time it takes.

Be patient, stop bitching-in-a-blog (which is just cathartic mental masturbation) and go get the voters. This year more than ever.

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By Shenonymous, September 15, 2010 at 11:53 pm Link to this comment

Hello radson.  It has been a long time.  I have been posting
regularly on TD but we apparently are ships passing in the night. 
I have limited participation except of late seems like I’ve been
attracted to a few forums.  Are we on different sides this time? 
Maybe it is only a misperception?  I will hope so.

There is no intention to imply that there will be no one already
familiar with the economic concept I am suggeting, but I have seen
only one person present this topic in all the years I have been posting
on TD.  Some in depth discussion occurred on another forum in the not
too distant past.  Nor did I mean to suggest that no one will understand
it.  But it has been my experience that many are somnabulent when it
comes to theory even applied theory.

It has been requested that I define what I mean by socialized capitalism
and so this is what I am doing since I think it may be a possible
solution for the benefit of not only American society, but ideally and
universally will benefit all societies. 

Briefly, because there are plenty of references provided that anyone
interested is well able to do their own investigation and I do not have to
take up the space and time of this forum to educate anyone further
other than what I can say in as few words as I can.

Somewhat as a preface…

It is claimed that the national wealth was owned by the top one-half
percent of families had dropped to its lowest level ever, about 14% in
1978, from a high of 30% in 1930 ironically at the end of the Great
Depression. That ratio is way much lower today!  As a reaction to the
loss of economic power found in the upper wealthy classes,
Reaganomics came along but only served to delay the inexorable
processes of socialization of the American economy to stave off the
disastrous effects of poverty that was creeping in.  In other words, it
was bound to happen.  This was due to unregulated capitalism and the
attendant excesses of the financial world in their mania for acquisition
and their various voracious financial schemes.  By the end of 2008, the
bottom fell out and we are still reeling from its effect and will for
decades to come, even though in the latest news there does seem to be
a turnaround that the economy is actually started to ascend once again. 
But caution is the rule.  This optimism does not percolate down to the
public very much.

And the public needs some instrument of power themselves to
determine their own lives and not be subject to the whims or vagaries
of politicians who have personal ambitions and do not really take the
problems of the general public to heart.  How can this be effected
without a major militant rebellion?  Without ripping apart the edifices
already in place?  Taking arms against the sea of troubles is not a real
or civilized solution because in the end too many humans will have
been damaged or even killed.  It is antithetical to the desired outcome. 
Throw the bums out is a good motto except one has to be careful that
replacements are responsive to the public’s needs.  There is a benign
solution, or so it seems.

How does socialized capitalism work?  In order to understand what I
mean by socialized capitalism, the idea of social capital needs explained
to ward off any misunderstanding.  This will be presented in my next
post.  I’m tired and work tomorrow so I have to be off. 

I am truly sorry GRYM you hate me.  It is not my wish that anybody
hate me.  Hate is a vile emotion and no one is really worth that
expense, not even me.  I will post this sentiment on the other forum
where you expressed your utter hate for me.  I hope it does not affect
your life in the way hate really does.  As civilized human beings we
ought to be able to disagree without hatred rearing its ugliness.

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By archivesDave, September 15, 2010 at 10:42 pm Link to this comment

I don’t agree with some of this but here is a must see clip on a recent Jordan Maxwell interview:

http://ufo-planetx.blogspot.com/2010/09/jordan-maxwell-do-your-homework.html

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By archivesDave, September 15, 2010 at 10:35 pm Link to this comment

Leefeller and NapoleonDoneHisPart:
“By Napolean DoneHisPart, September 15 at 3:43 pm Link to this comment

You could tell who has multiple screen names on TruthDig and undermine open debate and discourse.

And whom may that be?

My suspicions are some people are not really one person, for their writing changes style too often. If people are using multiple screen names, are they also wearing a disguise?  I have for some time now had this premonition a few posters are wearing panty hoses over their their heads when posting.

My analyst has suggested, my paranoia supersedes my schizophrenia!”

My suggestion is someone with an MPS (Multiple Personality Syndrome).

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By Mark E. Smith, September 15, 2010 at 10:15 pm Link to this comment

@Napolean DoneHisPart.

You’re it.

A friend of mine recently parted ways with the Green
Party. There was a meeting of local third parties
scheduled and a Green had agreed to attend, but then
had a schedule conflict and no other Greens were
available, so since he had said he was going to start
a splinter Green group, I told him about it and
suggested he might offer to fill the empty slot.

He wrote back to thank me, said he had contacted the
organizers, and also said that he wanted to start
what he called an “anti-political otra campaña” in
the style of the Zapatistas, and what he wanted to do
was get some people from the Greens, the Peace &
Freedom Party, anarchists, socialists, etc., and run
for Mayor and for four City Council seats.

I wrote back and explained to him that you don’t form
a good government by seeking power within the bad
government (el mal gobierno), and that even if he had
a good Mayor and a majority on the council, they
wouldn’t be able to break contracts the city had
already entered into, find more money with which to
solve problems, or change the bureaucracy.

I suggested an alternative and sent him an example,
explaining that this is the sort of thing I think
that an anti-political otra campaña would do:

***Citizens’ Community Collective Conspiracy to Fix
the Potholes. (C4FP)***

A recent survey found that the issue more residents
of our city care about than anything else, is getting
the potholes fixed.

City Hall is not in a position to hire more workers,
buy more materials, or shift resources from others
things to potholes.

We are an unincorporated nonexistent organization
testing the waters to see if there are enough
citizens who would like to take direct action on this
issue.

We’re seeking people who know where the worst
potholes are, people who have experience fixing
potholes, people who can donate materials, tools, and
labor to fix the potholes, and people willing to
provide legal services, PR, and bail for anyone who
get arrested for fixing potholes.

Send an email to (addy) stating what you have to
contribute, and if enough people are interested,
we’ll fix the potholes ourselves.
—————————————

Get the picture? You don’t change the system by
working within the system or by emulating the system.
You change the system by creating an alternative,
better system.

You lead by obeying. You find out what the people
want and you do it.

In this case, a local survey already found out what
the people want. Imagine the outrage if the city not
only doesn’t fix the potholes, but arrests citizens
who do.

I haven’t heard back from him. He’s a perennial 3rd
party candidate and a reformist rather than a
revolutionary, so I’m not sure he gets the concept.

But anyone who is truly interested in change should
be able to grasp the general concept from the example
I just gave. Just find out what the people want done,
and then organize people to do it.

No petitioning elected officials. No voting on rigged
voting machines. No lawsuits to try to get those in
power to obey the law. Just citizens doing what
government cannot and will not do. As long as you
know for sure that you have the support of the
majority, anything the establishment does to try to
stop you will only embarrass them and expose them for
the enemies of the public will that they are.

So don’t ask what group to join, ask what you and
your neighbors want most and then form a temporary
(so that nobody gets corrupted by power) group to do
it. If you understand the concept and go about it
correctly, one success can lead to another and the
establishment will become marginalized, lose
credibility, and eventually have to give way to
people power. But first you have to stop giving away
your power to people who will only use it against
you, and take it back.

Tag, you’re it!

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By JSB, September 15, 2010 at 9:45 pm Link to this comment

This is re: the question of whether it makes sense to vote, and especially to vote Democratic.

As I was driving along a stretch of lovely pines today, the following thoughts occurred:

There likely can be an unexpected benefit from the tea-bagger victories:  in both the Alaska and Delaware primaries, entrenched establishment Democrats stayed out of the race, assuming the moderate Republican would win.  When the tea-bagger won, the Democratic nominee was a non-establishment Democrat who now has a very good chance at winning.  This enlivens the Democratic party, allowing new blood to attain office.

Scott McAdams of Alaska looks like a very strong candidate to me, a genuine Alaskan with roots.  I had never heard of Chris Coons before yesterday, but this is what I find on Wikipedia about his background:


“Coons grew up in Hockessin, Delaware, married Annie Lingenfelter, and has three children. They live in Wilmington, Delaware. He graduated from Amherst College in 1985 with a B.A. in Chemistry and Political Science, earning a Truman Scholarship. After college, Coons worked in Washington, D.C., for the Investor Responsibility Research Center, where he wrote a book on South Africa and the U.S. divestment movement. He then worked as a volunteer for the South African Council of Churches and as a relief worker in Kenya, before returning to the U.S. to work for the Coalition for the Homeless in New York. In 1988, Coons worked as issues director for the U.S. Senate race of Delaware Lt. Gov. S.B. Woo. In 1992, he earned his J.D. degree from Yale Law School, and a master’s degree in Ethics from Yale Divinity School.”


He sounds very interesting.  The Delaware Republican race involved very very low turnout.  So a small number of highly motivated tea-baggers were able to prevail.  But they are unlikely to prevail in the general election, especially of Chris Coons gets good support, which I think he will.

I personally do not give a penny to the DSCC, DCCC, DLCC, or current DNC, given their devotion to Blue Dogs.  But I do give to specific candidates.  Here are the Act Blue links for Chris Coons and Scott McAdams, in case you’re interested:


http://www.actblue.com/entity/fundraisers/24825

http://www.actblue.com/entity/fundraisers/23738

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By BR549, September 15, 2010 at 7:42 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous, September 15 at 4:09 pm
“Not everyone will be able to understand the following economic theory.  It takes a real thinking brain, someone not too lazy to put
some effort into creating their world, not anyone looking for a ready-made organization with those who would do their thinking for them.”

=====================

That sounds like a backhand way of saying that because some people don’t have prior familiarity with or enough time to research the works you’ve suggested, that they somehow don’t qualify to be US citizens.

Some of us here actually have lives of our own and a host of other obligations. Every time someone tries to reinvent the dialogue wheel, here, doesn’t mean that the others are in a position to drop everything and consider it some holy work. All you’ve provided was a long list of references and nothing to mesh the articles with.

How many times have each of us attempted to illustrate something to the rest of the group, only to have perhaps ONE person and one person ONLY respond with some one-line comment? Happens all the time. It doesn’t mean people aren’t interested; it usually means that we weren’t able to reach our audience, which can be for a number of reasons. If you’re so familiar with it, at least lay part of it out without being so condescending. If you’re trying to reach an audience, try not beating them over the head with a club, first.

My two cents.

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By radson, September 15, 2010 at 7:35 pm Link to this comment

Shen

Social Capitalism and its theory ,is that somewhat related to the existing models which are found mainly in the EU ,namely France ,Sweden ,Germany and in Canada especially the province of Quebec?Now that’s quite an impressive list of links and books /publications that you have listed ;have you read them or are you just listing them ?How long have you been a Truthdipper Shen and why would you suggest that most Dippers are
retirees ,although I do appreciate your analysis concerning social security and its societal assistance.Perhaps you come from a privileged family and enjoy sharing your thoughts with the old folks ;just for the heck
of it . Voting or not voting ;has become the pertinent question of late ;according to you a none vote ;is a vote for the Repugs so that leaves what ?a vote for the ‘yes we can ’ man and a continuation of the same
old falsehoods and bullshit .The stupidity of the “lesser of two evils ” argument is rather self explanatory ,why vote for Evil to begin with ,abstaining would be the logical choice .How about voting for the ‘lesser of
three evils ’ wouldn’t that be a more beneficial choice .Nevertheless everybody has the right to vote or not to vote and has the right to vote for the party /candidate of their choice ,whether that is going to change
the Status Quo without turmoil is highly unlikely,why ,because foreign policy is set in advance and any obstruction will be countered with an iron fist ;its about greedy globalization stupid!

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By Leefeller, September 15, 2010 at 6:31 pm Link to this comment

Larry L. Stuler, I had to back track to see what the hell Shester was talking about, your last comments says it all.

Social Security is one of the few things the government has done right in my opinion, so we bump heads on this one!  As the Republicans and opportunists see all the money sitting their not in their pockets, the con men want to say yes we need to do something with all that money, Bush tried and they still will probably keep trying. 

Opportunists be damned, not the American people though they feel like they have been!

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By Leefeller, September 15, 2010 at 6:13 pm Link to this comment

By Napolean DoneHisPart, September 15 at 3:43 pm Link to this comment

You could tell who has multiple screen names on TruthDig and undermine open debate and discourse.

And whom may that be? 

My suspicions are some people are not really one person, for their writing changes style too often. If people are using multiple screen names, are they also wearing a disguise?  I have for some time now had this premonition a few posters are wearing panty hoses over their their heads when posting.

My analyst has suggested, my paranoia supersedes my schizophrenia!

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By Shenonymous, September 15, 2010 at 5:56 pm Link to this comment

Re: Larry L. Stuler, September 14 at 12:39 pm It is my guess,
Larry, that you are in the more than $250,000/year bracket.
A good many of the Truthdippers are retirees and I would further
bet that they all collect Social Security, and have Medicare Cards, if
they are Americans and were gainfully employed during their life.

Social Security is the Old-Age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance that
is funded through payroll taxes and all who retire at a certain age,
regardless of income status, meaning both poor and rich, are entitled to
collect it as a monthly stipend after a lifetime of hard work and a paltry income
based on skimped wages by employers who exploited their employees as much
as possible so that they might make more income. 2010 Social Security Trustees
Report Summary Press Release indicates it is primarily funded through a dedicated
payroll tax. During 2009, total benefits of $686 billion were paid out versus
income (taxes and interest) of $807 billion, a $121 billion annual surplus. That
means there was more than enough money to service its retirees.  However, it is a
trust fund that the government has borrowed against is partly the reason why it is
going bankrupt giving the government just another avenue to swipe money to pay
for other programs. Michael Kinsley, December 14, 1996, “Social Security: From
Ponzi Scheme to Shell Game,” http://www.slate.com/id/2405.

Increasing life expectancy is another reason.  Benefits over a longer period means
more depletion sooner of the fund.  Instead of investing the SS funds paid into the
account by American workers, where it ought to earn interest just like any other
investment, such as Treasury Bonds, or mutual funds, or whatever, not every body
lost money on the stock market.  Insured investments is what the government
ought to be doing but no, they take the social security funds and
use it to pay for other programs.  That is a travesty and ought to be illegal. 

The average life expectancy for Americans is 82.4 years.
http://seniorjournal.com/NEWS/Aging/Arch-Aging03-02/2-07-23LifeExpect.htm
If someone works at least 20 years, and retires at 65, then they are not expected
to live the entire 20 years, hence there are funds in excess of 2.6 years on average
that accumulates in the fund.  Many people will live beyond 82.4 years and just as
many if not more will die before 82.4 years.

Created as a protection for the elderly, the insurance program named Social
Security, was created in 1935 to limit what were seen as dire and dangerous
circumstances of Americans, that would include old age, poverty, unemployment,
and the burdens of widows and fatherless children.

Before any reactionary and mindless action is taken to wipe out
the social security program, think about yourself and your possible circumstances
as you age past 63 of age or your aging parents, siblings, etc., whose elderly
problems will fall directly on your
shoulders if the program was dissolved.

Reform is always a good idea to rid an ailing system of its viral residents and to
make it healthy again.  But the real reasons for its ill-operation needs to be
carefully assessed lest the aged and others be disenfranchised and their early
death or destitution be caused by the self-serving few, again.

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By Anarcissie, September 15, 2010 at 5:46 pm Link to this comment

BR549, September 15 at 1:55 pm:

Anarcissie, September 15 at 12:03 pm

Remember that with respect to food co-ops, that implies cooperation and an attempt for the population to circumvent the control that the government would otherwise be trying to impose. ...

Yes, I’m assuming there is enough political and economic space left for autonomous groups to operate.  I realize that the leash is tightened every day.  Anyway, it is really just an objective possibility but apparently for most people not a psychological possibility.  I talked and wrote about cooperative medical insurance and HMOs for 20 years and there was no response (besides the usual whining).  Now we have a ‘health care’ law with mandated payments to big insurers—apparently the worst of both worlds.  I don’t get it, but there it is.

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By archivesDave, September 15, 2010 at 5:14 pm Link to this comment

elisalouisa:

“FYI ArchivesDave

World Government, The by Nicholas Hagger paperback to be released Nov. 16, 2010.

I doubt that this book can top The Syndicate but you never know.

Thanks for referring this author to me.”

You’re welcome Elisa,
Have been in communication with Nicholas and suggested that he get some clips up on youtube or ?.
You might also email him at his website address
and goad him a little as well.
I’m certainly looking forward to his new book:
He should have some vry exciting new material since
it’s been around five yrs since he wrote that prescient book, ‘The Syndicate’.

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By Seabeck65, September 15, 2010 at 4:37 pm Link to this comment

I used to think it was a matter of electing the right folks to DC so that we could set a progessive national agenda that worked for the American people. Have come to the point where I realize that the concentration of power and money in the capital have made our national political process an easy target for corporate special interests. Instead, we need political devolution, a diminishing of power at the center with a concurrent transfer of power and all that entails to State and local governments. I think that today I’d support someone who was perhaps objectionable on social issues (read that Tea Party), but would work to break down power held by the central Government over a more comfortable Democrat who represented more of the same. Once devolution occurs, the States can go their own way like Catalonia or Scotland in the EU framework.

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By democratz.org, September 15, 2010 at 3:07 pm Link to this comment

The link did not show up properly. Use this

Please see http://hoflink.com/~dbaer/help-me-change-america1.htm

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By democratz.org, September 15, 2010 at 3:02 pm Link to this comment

You and I can change the corporate structure and pressure the companies that give money to conservatives to get progressive legislation through consumer boycotts.

Please see http://hoflink.com/~dbaer/help-me-change-america1.htm

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By democratz.org, September 15, 2010 at 3:00 pm Link to this comment

You and I can change the corporate structure and
pressure their CEOs for the legislation that
progressives want.

Please see http://hoflink.com/~dbaer/help-me-change-
america1.htm

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By Shenonymous, September 15, 2010 at 12:09 pm Link to this comment

A new beginning:
Socialized Capitalism and revenue stream funded through social
capital.

Not everyone will be able to understand the following economic
theory.  It takes a real thinking brain, someone not too lazy to put
some effort into creating their world, not anyone looking for a ready-
made organization with those who would do their thinking for them.
_________
Social Capital: A Conceptual History, James Farr, Political Theory, Vol.
32, No. 1 (Feb., 2004), pp. 6-33 Published by: Sage Publications, Inc.
http://www.jstor.org/stable/4148167
 
Center for European Studies Working Paper Series #145 (2007)
Socializing Capital, Capitalizing the Social: Contemporary Social
Democracy and the Knowledge Economy – Jenny Andersson Free
Download at:
http://www.ces.fas.harvard.edu/publications/docs/pdfs/Andersson.pdf

Socialized Capitalism - Albert G. Milbank, 1932*
http://www.ebooksread.com/authors-eng/survey-associates/the-
survey-volume-68-hci/page-70-the-survey-volume-68-hci.shtml
(copy/paste entire webaddress into browser)
Reference: Survey Associates. (Survey Graphic)
The Survey (Volume 68) (page 70 of 168)
Scroll to a little more than 2/3 down the page to read the article by
Milbank.  At the bottom is a bank of numbers, click the number 71(that
will be page 71 of volume 68) for the rest of the article.
(*article mistake puts 1952, Milbank) Milbank died in mid 1930s.

Also article:  Social Individualism - Albert G. Milbank
http://www.jstor.org/pss/3347603

D. Barney, “Prometheus Wired, the Hope for Democracy in the Age of
Network Technology.” Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000.

Peter Beilharz, “Labour’s Utopias: Bolshevism, Fabianism, Social
Democracy.” London: Routledge, 1992.

P. Bourdieu, “The Forms of Capital,” in Handbook of Theory and
Research for the Sociology of Education, edited by J. G. Richardson, pp.
241-58.

B. Fine and F Green. “Economics, Social Capital, and the Colonisation of
the Social Sciences,” in Social Capital. Critical Perspectives, edited by
Schuller, Davon and Field. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2000.

David Halpern, “Social Capital.” Cambridge: Polity, 2005.

C. Hay, “The Political Economy of New Labour.” Manchester: Manchester
University Press, 1998.

Geoffrey M Hodgson. “Economics and Utopia. Why the Learning
Economy Is Not the End of History,” St. Martin’s Press, 2000.

Fredric Jameson, “Postmodernism or the Cultural Logic of Capitalism.”
Durham: Duke University Press, 1991

Jane Jenson and Denis Saint-Martin. “New Routes to Social Cohesion.
Citizenship and the Social Investment State,” Canadian Journal of
Sociology 28, 1 (2003): 77-99.

Jessop, Bob. “The Future of the Capitalist State.” Cambridge: Polity,
2002.

“Modernity, Postmodernity, or Capitalism?” in “Capitalism and the
Information Age.” The Political Economy of the Global Communications
Era, edited by McChesney, Wood and Foster. New York: Monthly Review
Press, 1998.

Jonas Pontusson, The Limits of Social Democracy: Investment Politics in
Sweden, Cornell Studies in Political Economy. Ithaca: Cornell University
Press, 1992.

Nikolas Rose, “Powers of Freedom: Reframing Political Thought.”
Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1999.

Donald Sassoon, “One Hundred Years of Socialism: The West European
Left in the Twentieth Century.” London: Tauris, 1996. 

It is my bet that no one here is really interested in a viable new system
so they can continue to have the opportunity to criticize what is now
there.

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By Napolean DoneHisPart, September 15, 2010 at 11:43 am Link to this comment

You could tell who has multiple screen names on TruthDig and undermine open debate and discourse.

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By BR549, September 15, 2010 at 10:51 am Link to this comment

Arraya, September 15 at 2:21 pm

“..... getting this government to work for the “people” is highly unlikely because of it’s structure.  It’s not due to “bad” or “bought” politicians.  It is the system itself and until it is changed things won’t.”

Politicians, at least the bad ones, are almost always bought; they are not the disease, but a symptom of it. That, I contend, is why we had individual sovereignty and why subsequent legislators found it so troublesome to their cause.

I found Larry Stuler’s contribution here earlier to be quite illuminating, as well as his blog. It explains a lot.

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By ofersince72, September 15, 2010 at 10:49 am Link to this comment

Even though I have disagreements with editor
Robert Scheer, he deserves a good thanks for letting
a wide range of discussion on Truth Dig.

  I believe Arraya to be right when he says our whole
economic structure needs to be changed, and until then
we are always going to have economic injustice that
breeds racism and zenophobia.  The lawmakers can’t mask
who is really running our country anymore, they stand
naked as a jaybird.  (P.S. BR..I agree with your assessment of Feingold, he has done little except great
talking points, same with Leahy, Whitehouse ect.)

  I do not like Project Venus’ utopian model, however
I do listen to many of Peter Josheph’s lectures. He has
a lot of knowledge to learn from, I take away from it
what I want.  I do with most, as Dave said , just keep
a little scepticism and take what you need.

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By Napolean DoneHisPart, September 15, 2010 at 10:38 am Link to this comment

OKAY!

Good point it is not the people it is the system.

Who’s going to change the system?

Where is he or she? 

What is their name?

What party affiliation are they?

What’s the group so I can help?

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Arraya's avatar

By Arraya, September 15, 2010 at 10:21 am Link to this comment

This country is a country of the people for the people and that
idea
gets lost in arrogant pontification.

It’s a nice idea, but it does not match reality


Taking back one’s country from the
rich and powerful who have without a doubt hijacked it is not an easy
move to take on.  Just to make the decision to act is difficult.  Start
reading and thinking about how to make this government work for the
310,254,159 that are counted at this very moving moment as
Americans.

First, the rich have always owned the country.  Now, it’s just more apparent
because they don’t try to hide it.

Second, getting the this government to work for the “people” is highly unlikely
because of it’s structure.  It’s not due to “bad” or “bought” politicians.  It is the
system itself and until it is changed things won’t.

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By Shenonymous, September 15, 2010 at 10:20 am Link to this comment

: American politics is based on an unsustainable empire, based on
an ?unsustainable and irrational 18th economic model.  It has no
future, only decay ?and war.”
 

You mean 18th century?  Perhaps, but a unique country in the world,
America is still here after more than 200 years and it is still a bastion
democratic nation.  It is more resilient than conspiratorialists would like
to think.  It causes much laughter at the derangement of mind that
permeates so many that somehow find their way to Truthdig.  It is
becoming like an asylum.

Zeitgeist, Venus Project - The Venus Project, Inc is an organization that
promotes Jacque Fresco’s visions of the future with the goal to improve
society by moving towards what they call resource-based economy
(meaning some sort of barter system which is completely bonkers in the
face of the monetary system the entire world works on)  There was
reason why money was invented for the convenience of trade.  It would
be really good if people would simply start reading history and see why
things happen.  As Dennett writes, things will evolve as the have
inexorably because of the nature of the universe.  Venus theorizes the
design of sustainable cities, energy efficiency, natural resource
management and advanced automation, focusing on the benefits they
claim it will bring to society.  All very idealistic but exceedingly
impractical and humans are by nature, genetically practical. 

Another utopian elitist movement.  Socialized capitalism does not need
such a large organization to provide people with their own power to
control their lives.  All they need are guidelines on how to collectivize to
get done what they feel needs to be done to provide for the general
welfare of the population.  Glamorous movements like The Venus
Project or Zeitgeist always are generated by self-imagined saviors who
invariable are very interested and focused in making money.

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By Arraya, September 15, 2010 at 9:56 am Link to this comment

How does Peter Joseph’s Project Earth translate into American
politics? Lectures that redesigning social structures with pre-human
knowledge logic: know earthly components, biotics, abiotics. Energy,
the fuel of society. What ever does that mean?  Energy to fuel our
needs for fuel to run human life systems?  Yeah, so what?  His logic
sounds good, until one researches what he is really saying.  His logic
to use the imagination to imagine a world before humans is faulty
since without humans there is no logic possible.  I’d completely
bowled over if most Americans don’t know about the problem of energy
depletion.

PJ’s zeitgeist movement is the activist arm of the venus project.  Which is really
an extension of technocratic thought of the 30s.  Of whom, M King hubbert,
was apart of, since you bring up energy depletion.

The world’s present industrial civilization is handicapped by the
coexistence of two universal, overlapping, and incompatible intellectual
systems: the accumulated knowledge of the last four centuries of the properties
and interrelationships of matter and energy; and the associated monetary
culture which has evloved from folkways of prehistoric origin.

“The first of these two systems has been responsible for the spectacular rise,
principally during the last two centuries, of the present industrial system and is
essential for its continuance. The second, an inheritance from the prescientific
past, operates by rules of its own having little in common with those of the
matter-energy system. Nevertheless, the monetary system, by means of a loose
coupling, exercises a general control over the matter-energy system upon
which it is super[im]posed.

“Despite their inherent incompatibilities, these two systems during the last two
centuries have had one fundamental characteristic in common, namely,
exponential growth, which has made a reasonably stable coexistence possible.
But, for various reasons, it is impossible for the matter-energy system to
sustain exponential growth for more than a few tens of doublings, and this
phase is by now almost over. The monetary system has no such constraints,
and, according to one of its most fundamental rules, it must continue to grow
by compound interest. This disparity between a monetary system which
continues to grow exponentially and a physical system which is unable to do so
leads to an increase with time in the ratio of money to the output of the
physical system. This manifests itself as price inflation. A monetary alternative
corresponding to a zero physical growth rate would be a zero interest rate. The
result in either case would be large-scale financial instability.

American politics is based on an unsustainable empire, based on an
unsustainable and irrational 18th economic model.  It has no future, only decay
and war.

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By BR549, September 15, 2010 at 9:55 am Link to this comment

Anarcissie, September 15 at 12:03 pm

Remember that with respect to food co-ops, that implies cooperation and an attempt for the population to circumvent the control that the government would otherwise be trying to impose.

Rep. Rosa DeLauro introduced wording in her Food Safety bill that, as near I can quote it, would address “the known hazards of subsistence and recreational farming”. What hazards? They are testing the fences everywhere and if we were to fall asleep, some dipshit like DeLauro slides this crap under the door and we can forget Congress ever rescinding it. DeLauro’s husband, Stanley Greenberg, just happens to have formerly represented Monsanto. What a surprise.

Then everyone’s friend Sen. Russ Feingold dropped a bomb on the population with his intentional exclusion of the adjective “Navigable” from the phrase “Navigable Waters”, when rewording the Clean Waters Act of 1972. Then he goes off and pretends to do some progressive piece of legislation ....... yeah, after he pulled the rug out from under everyone. What the exclusion did was to now allow the Federal government to control every agricultural water basin and rain barrel on the side of one’s house. What a guy. Thanks, Russ.

The whole bunch of them are prostitutes.

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By Shenonymous, September 15, 2010 at 9:38 am Link to this comment

How does Peter Joseph’s Project Earth translate into American
politics? Lectures that redesigning social structures with pre-human
knowledge logic: know earthly components, biotics, abiotics. Energy,
the fuel of society. What ever does that mean?  Energy to fuel our
needs for fuel to run human life systems?  Yeah, so what?  His logic
sounds good, until one researches what he is really saying.  His logic
to use the imagination to imagine a world before humans is faulty
since without humans there is no logic possible.  I’d completely
bowled over if most Americans don’t know about the problem of energy
depletion. 

Joseph’s platform relies on conspiracy theory.  680,000 members out
of the more than 6 billion that populate this earth is hardly even a drop
of water in a bucketful.  Better to read about humanity and its evolution
the way Daniel Dennett describes in his Darwin’s Dangerous Idea, and
Kinds of Minds human development occurs as well as how social
changes effectively occur.  I am quite tired of conspiracy theorist and
their hairbrained logic.  Zeitgeist is an old movie effort to generate
irrational fear in the world.  Joseph’s movement is not doing so well in
the three years since he launched his crazy eclectic movement stealing
ideas from anywhere to support his self-styled saviorism.  A hyped
notch up on freaky from the DaVinci Code type hoopla.  BWYWTB!  But
don’t try to convince anyone who has a brain.

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By BR549, September 15, 2010 at 9:31 am Link to this comment

Re:  Arraya, September 15 at 11:11 am

“The utopia, or public ideology of capitalism and ‘free markets’ is miles away from the reality of how the system functions in practice, and is comparable to the psuedo-socialism practiced in the great totalitarian dictatorships of the Soviet Union, or present day China.”

=============

I believe the whole issue of individual sovereignty was how the founding fathers attempted to address and avoid the potential for fascism disguised as capitalism. That’s why the first thing the corrupt legislatures had to try to do was to dismantle individual sovereignty. The founding fathers set this country up with a Constitution and yet the power-mongers were already hard at work, trying to wrest our rights away.

Also, it isn’t that capitalism itself is the culprit, but when the individuals within it loose sight of the larger picture, do the “every-man-for-himself” thing, and revert to putting their own needs foremost, that presents a real survival problem. Perhaps in that idealistic state of capitalism, we might have seen examples of selfless employers taking enough care of their own employees that there never would have been a need for unions. If that was the standard, then anyone who wasn’t philosophically up to speed would be out of business, as all the good labor would be headed elsewhere and consumers would be shamed into buying elsewhere. Indeed, that would appear to be as much a socialist market system and ‘free-market’ only to the extent that everyone was in compliance,

But all that would have taken sound management and a philosophical commitment to the whole, and as I’ve said many times, these clowns we have now couldn’t run a successful lemonade stand. They do a real good job of stealing the income from YOUR lemonade stand, though.

It is easy for the ‘powers that be’ to prey upon the weakness of lost souls in order to get them under their spell. They then use these minions to do all their dirty work to keep the rest of the population in line, but it takes a real gift to manage and motivate people to come up to the level they would be at ..... and I doubt that we’ll see that degree of selfless behavior from the likes of Rockefeller, Soros, Gore, the Bush Family, and the Clintons, any time soon.

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By BR549, September 15, 2010 at 8:54 am Link to this comment

ArchivesDave and Ofersince72,

I listen to Alex not quite every day and I have had my jaw drop listening to Gen. Mamid Gul, Webster Tarpley, Dr. Paul Craig Roberts, Catherine Austin-Fitts, and recently retired FBI agent Don Adams’ blistering account of the JFK assassination.

G. Edward Griffin I enjoy listening to as well. Rev, Lindsey Taylor’s (?) account of the Gulf Oil Spoil I still some doubts about, but all in all, with Alex’s track record so far, I’ll take my chances with him.

As Dave said about keeping up that cynical guard, yes, that’s still a necessity, but again, how much of this material has proved to be untrue AND how much of it has proved to be irrelevant? Not much. Some of the ads tend to go a little overboard, but when you look at the larger picture, you sometimes wonder if it isn’t overboard enough. I don’t have a crystal ball in that department. Time will tell.

Alex may seem like a redneck at times, but once you hear him veer off and occasionally discuss his deeper philosophical views, and he might do that once a month or so ........... this guy can get fairly deep and hold a conversation with the best of them.

While his day to day technique might appear rather unpolished, his research and referencing are just about bullet-proof.

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By Arraya, September 15, 2010 at 8:51 am Link to this comment

Social Pathology
http://vimeo.com/10707453

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By Shenonymous, September 15, 2010 at 8:51 am Link to this comment

Things do not have to be extreme pendulum swings.  Just calm and
logical thinking will get one out of the pool of political and economic
swineshit to see exactly how to effect change.  A radical reactive
mentality only deepens the problems.  It allows people to rant and
get the angst off their chest but it essentially allows only wheel
spinning and no progressive movement forward. 

This country is a country of the people for the people and that idea
gets lost in arrogant pontification.  Taking back one’s country from the
rich and powerful who have without a doubt hijacked it is not an easy
move to take on.  Just to make the decision to act is difficult.  Start
reading and thinking about how to make this government work for the
310,254,159 that are counted at this very moving moment as
Americans.

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By Arraya, September 15, 2010 at 8:44 am Link to this comment

If there is a better system anyone can suggest, please do so instead
of
just whining or intellectualizing about the situation that everybody
knows and has known for a very long time.

http://vimeo.com/7938805

Governments and economics are civilization’s decision making “technologies”.  It
would appear to me, that our current “technologies” are grossly inadequate at
their task.

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By Arraya, September 15, 2010 at 8:39 am Link to this comment

The more we expand community credit unions, community
health clinics and food cooperatives and build alternative energy systems, the
more empowered we will become,’ he is beginning to get at one possible
solution—assuming there is enough space left in the system—and that is the
creation and expansion of non-coercive relations and institutions independent
of the government, the corporations, and the ruling class.

I don’t think removing some heads and replacing them with others is going to
do very much.  Obviously, it didn’t accomplish anything in 2006 or
2008.

I agree, the undemocraticness of the system can’t change because of its very
logic.  Though, it’s tough to do and expensive.  The expense part makes it
*almost* infeasible of carving out another system, which still has to adhere to
the monetary rules of the old system.

I’ve evolved to think that the best thing would be a fast financial crash rather
than a slow boil and looks to be shaping up that way.  That way, enough people
will be disillusioned and open to real change. Though, it also runs the risks of
people going crazy.  A slow boil solidifies the psychology that Nader describes
as the generational poverty stricken become content and are stupified by their
own struggle to survive.

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By Shenonymous, September 15, 2010 at 8:38 am Link to this comment

” When Hedges mentions Kraft & Kultur saying, ‘All resistance
will take place outside the arena of electoral politics. The more we
expand community credit unions, community health clinics and
food cooperatives and build alternative energy systems, the more
empowered we will become,’”
he speaks as he always does,
amorphously and full of hot air. 

What are the alternatives to capitalism or socialism?  Well there is full-
blown anarchy or various forms thereof, or there is a neo-synthesis,
which can be called something that does have some history but never
was taken very seriously, socialized capitalism.  I suspect because the
word socialism is anathema to capitalists and capitalism brings on an
allergic reaction to socialists. 

Nevertheless, it is advisable that people really interested in starting a
movement from within the people read up on social capital and
socialized capitalism.  There is a ton of information out there.  I will put
together a bibliography.  But essentially what socialized capitalism is
takes the energy of the people and puts it into local collectives for
action, whether for selecting local municipal administrators,
representative politicians or how to spend local treasuries for local
good, then expanding to the state level and on to the national level.  It
is a movement of the people by the people that takes revenue
generation and uses it directly in competition with free market
capitalism.  It does not eliminate capitalism but because of its directly
felt benefits will eventually replace classical capitalism that has shown
to be detrimental to society and only good for the rich.  Socialized
capitalism takes the wind out of the corportocractic sails and it is easier
than anyone might think.  The rub is that it would be sanctioned by the
government not run by the government, meaning it would be protected
by the federal government.

If there is a better system anyone can suggest, please do so instead of
just whining or intellectualizing about the situation that everybody
knows and has known for a very long time.

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By Arraya, September 15, 2010 at 8:15 am Link to this comment

Dissolution of the nation state and universal rights is a good idea. 

No nation has a right to exist. There is no ethical basis for such claims, they are
simply political demands of nationalist movements. Most nations which ever
existed on this planet will disappeared anyway, and there is nothing wrong with
that. There is no reason why the currently existing nations should remain in
existence for ever, and that applies equally to the nation-states.

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By Anarcissie, September 15, 2010 at 8:03 am Link to this comment

Arraya, September 15 at 11:11 am:

‘... So, in the United States, as an example, one has not only pushed old-school capitalism to one side, but ‘democracy’ as well.

This brings us to the thorny question of how exactly one introduces profound change in a society ruled by an incredibly powerful elite whose interests are so different from the rest of the population, so that they, the elite, de facto, live in an alternative society, a virtual, global, Versailles, compared to the great mass of humanity. ‘

When Hedges mentions Kraft & Kultur, when he says ‘All resistance will take place outside the arena of electoral politics. The more we expand community credit unions, community health clinics and food cooperatives and build alternative energy systems, the more empowered we will become,’ he is beginning to get at one possible solution—assuming there is enough space left in the system—and that is the creation and expansion of non-coercive relations and institutions independent of the government, the corporations, and the ruling class.

I don’t think removing some heads and replacing them with others is going to do very much.  Obviously, it didn’t accomplish anything in 2006 or 2008.

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By elisalouisa, September 15, 2010 at 7:27 am Link to this comment

FYI ArchivesDave

World Government, The by Nicholas Hagger paperback to be released Nov. 16, 2010.

I doubt that this book can top The Syndicate but you never know.

Thanks for referring this author to me.

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By Arraya, September 15, 2010 at 7:11 am Link to this comment

One needs to seperate, and be aware, of the differences between political
ideology, dogma, predujice, faith, self-interest and and, for want of a better
term, I’d call, rationality, or an objective, scintific way of looking at the world.

This is, of course, extremely difficult, as it’s the ‘lies’ that we believe that scare
me most of all. One of them is the ‘label game’. Calling one economic/political
system, ‘free’ or ‘democratic’, or ‘capitalist’ compared to ‘communism’ or
‘socialism’.

The utopia, or public ideology of capitalism and ‘free markets’ is miles away
from the reality of how the system functions in practice, and is comparable to
the psuedo-socialism practiced in the great totalitarian dictatorships of the
Soviet Union, or present day China.

Personally I believe the United States, as witnessed by the current ‘socialist’
bailout of the financial system, has definitively abandoned the core principles
of official, capitalist ideology and dogma, and replaced it with the corporate
state, where increasingly the market and the state, become one and the same.

Clearly, capitalism, no longer really works in the United States, if it ever did, but
this is a massively complex subject to get into here, so I’ll step back a bit from
that historical can of worms!

What I find amusing, no perhaps grotesque is better, is how closely free market
ideologues in their increasingly desparate attempts to defend their corner at all
costs, even to the point of self-contradictory absurdity, and if only capitalism
was allowed to evolve into a pure and uncorrupted form, how everything would
be fine.

Capitalism, is, I believe, at heart, like the other major ideologies, about Power
and how it is distributed in society, not primarily about economics or markets.
The collosal concentration of economic power and wealth which characterises
the modern United States, also has profound implications for our concepts of
democracy and how society is ruled. It would appear to be close to impossible
to have a healthy and functioning democracy and at the same time vast
disparities in power relationships.

So, in the United States, as an example, one has not only pushed old-schoool
capitalism to one side, but ‘democracy’ as well.

This brings us to the thorny question of how exactly one introduces profound
change in a society ruled by an incredibly powerful elite whose interests are so
different from the rest of the population, so that they, the elite, de facto, live in
an alternative society, a virtual, global, Versailles, compared to the great mass
of humanity.

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By Shenonymous, September 15, 2010 at 6:05 am Link to this comment

The US economy ‘was’ on the verge of collapse.  BWYWTB!

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By archivesDave, September 15, 2010 at 1:22 am Link to this comment

Here’s a 1968 clip of G Edward Griffin that’s a real
hoot!...
Was kind of a Right Wing Bircher then but it still discloses much about current (and future?) events.
http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/Blog/?cat=155

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By archivesDave, September 15, 2010 at 1:14 am Link to this comment

Ofersince and BR:
So what do u guys think about Webster Tarpley?
Seems almost TOO brilliant at times…I often wonder if many of these guys are really part of the Globalist
Elites; Giving us a lot of great truths but interspersing them with invisible falsehoods. He is putting up a fantastic guise no matter what.
G Edward Griffin, Rense, and Salbuchi are three others to follow but keep your cynical guard up for them as well.

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By archivesDave, September 15, 2010 at 12:59 am Link to this comment

BR549:
So Jones is abrasive and full of himself….I can handle that.
TWO CENTS WORTH????
What u said could pay off the national debt if folks would only believe and heed!
That being said, he probably has more followers now
than ANYONE else in MSM including Beck and Limbaugh
who absolutely aren’t worth two cents together.

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By ofersince72, September 14, 2010 at 10:52 pm Link to this comment

Our news services, as they like to call themselves,

are anything but that.  They are public opinion formulators.  And owned and operated by the corporations
that they are suppossed to have watch over.

All you have to do is read both conservative and
progressive websites to see the control they have over
public opinion and little based on news events that effect
the well being of the public.

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By ofersince72, September 14, 2010 at 10:45 pm Link to this comment

I like Alex Jones,  but mostly on his fact based

false flag investigative reporting.

He did lose credence with me some when he started
endorsing candidates.

Beck, for what “he’s worth”, is priceless for the
collusional media just as Maddow/Olberman. Neither are
“news services” and at best can be described as
opinion services…....And thats being aweful nice!!!!

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By BR549, September 14, 2010 at 10:21 pm Link to this comment

Putting Alex Jones’ style being not exactly Walter Cronkite material aside, it begs one to ask how he has managed to stay so far ahead of the MSM in reporting topics that have otherwise remained taboo, only to have those topics become front burner material years later.

He has a tendency to hype his positions, but those positions have rarely proven themselves to be false. So what’s the deal? Do people discount him because they don’t yet grasp the level he’s working at? That would be my take. Certainly, his rants are a detraction, but I have been openly critical of those over the years (along with others) and, well, he’s working on it.

What he attempts to illustrate, much of the public just isn’t ready to hear. Well, they need to suck it up and get with the program. Events are taking place far too quickly for people to be sitting idly by and twiddling their thumbs.

Beck, for what he’s worth, often emulates Jones, and the MSM remains woefully behind the eight ball in actually bringing relevant news to the average voter. Occasionally, Cooper, Stewart, Maddow, and others dance on the edge of some topic, but rarely do they dive into it like Alex does. That’s the problem with networks and corporate sponsorship. As for Scheer and Hedges and the like, people will dive in here and trash them one time and hug them the next; depending on their point of view of an article.

For those of you who haven’t yet listened to Jones, it take practice, patience, and like a new professor, you just hope you can figure him out before the first exam. He wasn’t the easiest host to get used to, but once you figure it out, you’ll be wondering why the hell the rest of the news agencies are so far behind.

My two cents.

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By Mikey, September 14, 2010 at 9:59 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

You just said it all, Mr. Hedges. My only concern is it’s probably too
late to stop the slide.

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By ofersince72, September 14, 2010 at 9:46 pm Link to this comment

By Anarcissie..

“So far, though, the internet has not particularly
promoted reason in politics.”

Couldn’t agree with you more.  As a matter of fact, I
believe it has been a detriment to political discourse.
One does not have to do anything but look at their
sorroundings to figure this out.  We have lost our rights,
our ecology is to a point of no survival, yet no one
notices, our economy is more than ever based on death
and destruction.  We still believe building highways is
the best jobs program other than military spending, our
health care is so expensive few can afford it, and even at
that, all the doctors have become nothing but distributers
for the Pharma industry.  We believe we cannont communicate without a cell phone , yet few know talk to
more than one neighber in their own neighborhood. The
public is still easily divided by the collusional major
media, and wealth has moved upstairs at a faster rate
than anytime in history. The public is more unaware than
ever of their sorroundings.
and this could go on and on and on….......
Electronic media has dumbed down the world and the
internet is no exception.

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