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Posted on Sep 12, 2010
AP / Elise Amendola

By Chris Hedges

(Page 2)

“Poor people do not organize,” Nader lamented. “They never have. It has always been people who have fairly good jobs. You don’t see Wal-Mart workers massing anywhere. The people who are the most militant are the people who had the best blue-collar jobs. Their expectation level was high. When they felt their jobs were being jeopardized they got really angry. But when you are at $7.25 an hour you want to hang on to $7.25 an hour. It is a strange thing.”

“People have institutionalized oppressive power in the form of surrender,” Nader said. “It is not that they like it. But what are you going to do about it? You make the best of it. The system of control is staggeringly dictatorial. It breaks new ground and innovates in ways no one in human history has ever innovated. You start in American history where these corporations have influence. Then they have lobbyists. Then they run candidates. Then they put their appointments in top government positions. Now, they are actually operating the government. Look at Halliburton and Blackwater. Yesterday someone in our office called the Office of Pipeline Safety apropos the San Bruno explosion in California. The press woman answered. The guy in our office saw on the screen that she had CTR next to her name. He said, ‘What is CTR?’ She said, ‘I am a contractor.’ He said, ‘This is the press office at the Department of Transportation. They contracted out the press office?’ ‘Yes,’ she said, ‘but that’s OK, I come to work here every day.’ ” 

“The corporate state is the ultimate maturation of American-type fascism,” Nader said. “They leave wide areas of personal freedom so that people can confuse personal freedom with civic freedom—the freedom to go where you want, eat where you want, associate with who you want, buy what you want, work where you want, sleep when you want, play when you want. If people have given up on any civic or political role for themselves there is a sufficient amount of elbow room to get through the day. They do not have the freedom to participate in the decisions about war, foreign policy, domestic health and safety issues, taxes or transportation. That is its genius. But one of its Achilles’ heels is that the price of the corporate state is a deteriorating political economy. They can’t stop their greed from getting the next morsel. The question is, at what point are enough people going to have a breaking point in terms of their own economic plight? At what point will they say enough is enough? When that happens, is a tea party type enough or [Sen. Robert M.] La Follette or Eugene Debs type of enough?”

It is anti-corporate movements as exemplified by the Scandinavian energy firm Kraft&Kultur that we must emulate. Kraft&Kultur sells electricity exclusively from solar and water power. It has begun to merge clean energy with cultural events, bookstores and a political consciousness that actively defies corporate hegemony. 

The failure by the Obama administration to use the bailout and stimulus money to build public works such as schools, libraries, roads, clinics, highways, public transit and reclaiming dams, as well as create green jobs, has snuffed out any hope of serious economic, political or environmental reform coming from the centralized bureaucracy of the corporate state. And since the government did not hire enough auditors and examiners to monitor how the hundreds of billions in taxpayer funds funneled to Wall Street are being spent, we will soon see reports of widespread mismanagement and corruption. The rot and corruption at the top levels of our financial and political systems, coupled with the increasing deprivation felt by tens of millions of Americans, are volatile tinder for a horrific right-wing backlash in the absence of a committed socialist alternative.   

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“If you took a day off and did nothing but listen to Hannity, Beck and Limbaugh and realized that this goes on 260 days a year, you would see that it is overwhelming,” Nader said. “You have to almost have a genetic resistance in your mind and body not to be affected by it. These guys are very good. They are clever. They are funny. They are emotional. It beats me how Air America didn’t make it, except it went after [it criticized] corporations, and corporations advertise. These right-wingers go after government, and government doesn’t advertise. And that is the difference. It isn’t that their message appeals more. Air America starved because it could not get ads.”

We do not have much time left. And the longer we refuse to confront corporate power the more impotent we become as society breaks down. The game of electoral politics, which is given legitimacy by the right and the so-called left on the cable news shows, is just that—a game. It diverts us from what should be our daily task—dismantling, piece by piece, the iron grip that corporations hold over our lives. Hope is a word that is applicable only to those who grasp reality, however bleak, and do something meaningful to fight back—which does not include the farce of elections and involvement in mainstream political parties. Hope is about fighting against the real forces of destruction, not chanting “Yes We Can!” in rallies orchestrated by marketing experts, television crews, pollsters and propagandists or begging Obama to be Obama. Hope, in the hands of realists, spreads fear into the black heart of the corporate elite. But hope, real hope, remains thwarted by our collective self-delusion.


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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, September 27, 2010 at 8:14 am Link to this comment

Well my attempt to watch the video turned out longer then I wanted, for I cannot stand TV, Fox News, and this reminded me of Fox opinion News…..! Zinnews.  Alleged abuses portrayed show only the extremes, obviously for effect,  this Zin seems a hypocrite, why isn’t he living in a cave?  I have more respect for a Buddhist Monk!

The corporations controlling the people is correct in some respects, but seems an overstatement, the process reminds me more like an osmosis or acceptance of ones surroundings(most people have little choice)  seemingly like people choosing a religion by association as they grow up or radiate to the shopping mall in the neighborhood seems the same to me?

As for the plastic ladies, I still prefer Monty Pythons computer game Spanking the Virgins.

For some reason, if this Zin guy became the king of choice, me thinks he would be an opportunist just as those he criticizes! Another absolutist with a following?

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Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, September 27, 2010 at 8:06 am Link to this comment

Vocabulary is an important problem (hence my quest for concrete examples).  Socialism, which originally meant ‘the ownership and control of the means of production by the workers’ has come to mean ‘centrally controlled by the government’, almost the opposite.  Capitalism is conflated with ‘operating through markets’ and ‘free enterprise’ although capitalists often strive to obtain monopolies—the actual meaning of the word was originally just ‘private ownership and control of the means of production’ with nothing said about markets, freedom, or government one way or the other.  Since industrial production is highly social, the question of ownership and control usually has implications for social relations, primarily the power or class relation between the capitalists (or bureaucrats) and the workers. 

A lot of the obfuscation is due to propaganda. 

Thus far, cooperative and its derivatives seem to be below the propagandists’ radar, however, indicating that for the moment there is a certain amount of political and economic space available for the development of such institutions and relations.

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By archivesDave, September 27, 2010 at 4:08 am Link to this comment

Lawrence Baker, Where r u?...I wish u’d weigh in on this.

BTW, Webster Tarpley has a new one out that well worth watching:

http://geraldcelentechannel.blogspot.com/2010/09/webster-tarpley-world-crisis-radio_25.html

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, September 27, 2010 at 3:04 am Link to this comment

Zerzan’s message of nihilism has been tried over and over to no
perceivable avail.  I don’t believe the several characters who say
that our youth don’t have a future.  Yes, it is pristinely true, the
multicorporations have many of the world’s people by their throats. 
And we do have to liberate ourselves from the bondage.  In noble
ways not in wretched violent ways.  The man selling artificial nubile
bodies for 6 or 7 thousand dollars is exploiting not those who can
afford those sex monstrosities, but selling humanity down the river
of artificiality, and for a tidy profit.  It is men who buy these things,
so it is men who have to become aware of their exchange of artificiality
for the existential genuine.  Good luck on that one.  The use of the
word “we” as if everyone is culpable is a fallacy because it is only a
segment of the world’s population who participates in such excesses,
only the uppermiddle class and above who can afford to be so involved
in such ennui and stagnation of the mind.  Zerzan has taken some facts
of life and expanded them beyond reality.  There have been protests for
hundreds of years.  People become mindless mobs when they are
persuaded by intellectuals that their life is unbearable and these people
who are themselves so numbed by their own pathos that they follow
like lemmings whatever glamorous piper looks good or intellectual,
some “knower” into some imagined glorifying rebellion. The video has
exaggerated that to a hyperbolic grotesqueness.  Notice that the Cuba
of the revolution is no longer alive.  It is dying on the vine of progress. 
I don’t believe Zerzan’s message because he promotes violence.  He has
a set of values that he wants to impose on the world. Most garbage
these days is recycled into reuse; this is the real revolution that makes
the world a better place. 
http://www.recycling-revolution.com/recycling-facts.html

Here is what I believe.  Humanity is always in a transition.  If as much
footage given to the extravagant life and overuse of resources was
given to reenactment of Neanderthal or Cro-Magnon life, primitives
being eaten by predators, or being melted by volcanoes, or hunting
and gathering for mere subsistence, then it would easily be seen that
they had no time for happiness either and mainly lived a fearful savage
life.  The video gives a few minutes to a character acting like a primitive
moving a rock around. The reality of the primitive was early death and
they didn’t have as much leisure time as Zerzan seems to imagine. I
know lots of happy people who do not overuse the world but live
simply without having to have all that is portrayed on the video. Often
there is a tendency to romanticize anger and for some to overdramatize
the excessive life.  Video as an art media is amenable to seduction of
the mind.  What Zerzan criticizes might have some truth to it but he
measures the world by his own values.  Everyone isn’t trite in their
approach to life, don’t all hang out of car windows, or do drugs. 
People naturally want a comfortable existence.  People like pre-cardiac-
arrest Steve Ballmer performs for a specific crowd not the entire world. 
Those who are tai chi-ing or exercising at their desks are simply
understanding their human body in a certain way that could be
healthful for them. 

There is only one kind of revolution that will have far reaching
consequences for a better world and healthful people.  It is education in
valuing life and the world in which lives live. 

The rhetoric of renewal and return to the time before expressed in the
video is I think delusional and uninspiring without any solution but
upheaval and violence.  Very uncreative and a waste of human energy
and ingenuity.  I can see how a video about nihilism would appeal to
the true believers.  There is something exciting about destruction.  A
read of Eric Hoffer’s True Believer would put things into perspective.

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By archivesDave, September 27, 2010 at 1:41 am Link to this comment

NapoleanDoneHisPart:

“If you can read and decipher several languages… you’ll learn more in this documentary than in one year taking a humanities class.  There are other versions.  Let it play and learn folks.”

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7400393743229742503#

Thanks NDHP…I did get a good humanities lesson as well as one for Italian. ...Oh yeah, and one more from Microsoft Balmer and Cuba Fidel: Developement - consume!
All: For more info on Zerzan here’s a link to his site:

http://johnzerzan.net

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By Musa, September 26, 2010 at 10:56 pm Link to this comment

Mr. Hedges:
As you reference socialists, you don’t seem to take a realistic view of how a socialist society can be achieved.  The generous people who invest in cooperative industries and the idealists who work there will never be able to defeat the ruling capitalist class.  It takes massive organization to defeat them where they are strongest—political power—and if you don’t take that from them they will never let you have a different society.  There is no easy way to get there.

The organization to elect president Obama and keep out the republicans this November is the kind of organization that can eventually fight for socialism itself.

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Napolean DoneHisPart's avatar

By Napolean DoneHisPart, September 26, 2010 at 10:16 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous, like your response.. you are very thorough and your logical expression and delivery so clear, and your writing structure is superb… reminds me of being a T.A. so long ago wink  You did say you are in education?

Yes, words and their order is very important… a flaw with previous ideas of ‘systems’ of governance is that they all attempt to fix or alleviate all the challenges folks face daily… and no system can do that, they can only manage so much…

Wrote this elsewhere on TG, but message stays the same in a different order of words that is:

Simply pointing the fact that most people have ‘dropped out’ of politics, even the point of voting, let alone reading something other than tv or the paper…. or yahoo news for example… or worse fox and those guys.

And lots of folks don’t understand nor debate much how we do here, whatever the point of view or core beliefs.

We need something concrete we need to offer people…. something that is ‘real’ for them right now, not getting some person ‘voted’ in from the current party system of marketing a politico’s face and name and whatever… we see it all over right now, and someone needs to pick up that trash.

Yes let’s advocate a fresh approach to the issue of governance and allowing who to govern.  This is the point of it all, isn’t it?

For starters, teaching folks about the money system, how it benefits the few… and how to really hit them where it hurts!  How to defend ourselves financially.

JUST STOP FEEDING THEM.

For example- going electric car and dumping the petro guzzler.  Money and efforts move from supporting big car corps… and supporting the burgeoning local electric vehicle market… look out your window, it is happening.. this is just ONE area to make a shift that will have longing consequences down the road… from cutting demand to new gas burners, to increasing demand for new electrics that do all the gas-ers do.

Some guy converted his old pickup into an electric for $2k.  There is a whole market of used cars of all decades ready to be converted; slapping on new rims, tires, interior and paint job…. and you’ll have a ‘restored’ car, flipped to meet current amenities.

It’s starts with YOU reading this and realizing the difference your personal choice of consumption, who’s pet food to buy, who’s carrots to go buy, etc…

“Excuse me, I can just never give up my luxuries…. oh my Mercedes… or my Harley, or my 80’ King Fisher… it makes me feel important and special… and valuable… much more than those who are walking and catching the bus surely I swear to you.”

Ever notice the contrast between, let’s say Robert Rizzo in Bell, CA…. and Hank Paulson in D.C.?

Paulson is protected going into and out of the position, whether public office or corporation… just the nature of the entity and how it shelters the natural person.

Rizzo is an example and scapegoat I hope we can all agree to clearly see.. while he is the puppet and stripped scarecrow which is just enough to satisfy the masses and their disgust with ‘government’ when its at ALL LEVELS the corruption and power play.

Think of public crucifixions like the old days…. but never the upper classes, clubs, pedigree or blue bloods…

Ever wonder why folks love to hear about Lohan or whomever celebrity falling meteor crashing and burning?  They tried and failed as we all wish we could succeed and thrive for generations… like they’ve done over us…

Same pony show folks, just in today’s guise.

If you can read and decipher several languages… you’ll learn more in this documentary than in one year taking a humanities class.  There are other versions.  Let it play and learn folks.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7400393743229742503#

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By Shenonymous, September 26, 2010 at 9:59 pm Link to this comment

BECAUSE of your reticence, Napoleon DoneHisPart, to use the word
“socialized” as an acceptable adjective for capitalism, it bothered me
so I googled to see what more can be learned about socialized
capitalism. I’m beginning to think it is a misnomer for what I have
in mind. The term actually has been widely used, as describing a
capitalism funded and run by the government, and hence is tainted. 
I believe Anarcissie saw that and expressed apprehension but I think
it was an apprehension through an anarchist view. If socialized
capitalism really is perceived to be an economic system run by a
government, even where trade is free, then I don’t blame her, though
beyond that I disagree that an anarchic system is most workable and
I’ve expressed my reasons why also previously.

I was surprised to learn that in 1958, Louis Kelso and Mortimer Adler
published The Capitalist Manifesto wherein socialized capitalism is
discussed several times. This is a 279-page document entirely
accessible online. I downloaded and have not had time to read it but I
found the 11 pages where socialized capitalism is sternly criticized. 
This was back in ’58 mind you. The form of socialization described
throughout the Manifesto is an expected and inexorable logical
outcome of Marxism, albeit sans violence, where all private property is
abolished and a socialization of the economy is accomplished. 
However, once that happens, and all capital property is vested in the
state, a new class of owners, the bureaucrats, the central committee
who had formed the managerial class transfigures the society into a
totalitarian state.

PREVIOUSLY I criticized that this has happened in the states where
Marxism has been the experiment and would happen because it is the
nature of the central executive committee and chief policymaking body
to fall into tyrannical corruption.  Milovan Djilas in his book, The New
Class
, warned that the system evolves where the politburo becomes a
new class of “owners.” According to a Wiki entry on the New Class,
Djilas, was the Vice President of the Federal People’s Republic of
Yugoslavia under Tito, who participated with Tito in the Yugoslav
People’s Liberation War, but was later jailed as he began to advocate
democratic and egalitarian ideals (which Djilas believed were more in
line with the way socialism and communism should look like).  He
offered irrefutable evidence that a completely socialized economy would
be far from creating a free and classless society, but would instead
create one in which there is sharp class division between the rulers who
are, in effect, the owners and the workers who are economically as well
as politically enslaved.  Adler and Kelso reflect that socialism, not
capitalism is essentially incompatible with democracy.

THIS is not how I envision the public’s retrieval of their economic
system.  What I see is a democratic society that takes more and more
responsibility through cooperative networks to build their own
economic system thereby releasing themselves from the grip of
corporate despotism.

AS far as I am concerned there does exist a stigma in using socialized
capitalism as a describing term for the kind of social action being
proposed.  A different term needs to be designed to fit the intention.
Because no coercion would be involved, private ownership of
commercial institutions would not be completely eliminated as it would
under socialism, private capitalism could continue to exist along side
the competing public system.  Free trade based on supply and demand
in order to maximize consumer welfare would continue to exist. 
However, financiers and corporatists and their lackey politicians would
not hold the reins of the economy, the cooperatives would.  How this
can be effected will take some extraordinary thinking but it seems to
me it is the only way out of the oppressive stagnation American
capitalism has got itself into.

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, September 26, 2010 at 3:47 pm Link to this comment

Thanks Ardee and Anarcissie, my hearing is shot, yes Monodragon, an impressive company and Dr. Emanuel Bronner removes the cynical smile (in which people can work together to an end), off me face. 

I will next check to see if the Doctor is in!

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By ardee, September 26, 2010 at 3:00 pm Link to this comment

Leefeller, September 26 at 5:24 pm

I suggest you Wiki “Dr. Emanuel Bronner” for elucidation.

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Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, September 26, 2010 at 2:45 pm Link to this comment

Mondragón.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation
http://www.mondragon-corporation.com/language/en-US/ENG.aspx

I think it is the largest single cooperative in the world.

Many people in cooperative movements would be rather unhappy with being called ‘capitalists’ of any sort.

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, September 26, 2010 at 1:24 pm Link to this comment

Today I had a nice discussion about Socialized capitalism with a person who seemed to already know of it?  She told me there are a few examples of it which I cannot find on the web.

One is by a Basque guy, who she stated is called Monjdriving Mountin, I must have it wrong, but she went on to say the idea is none of the people in the program (for lack of another word) make more than 5 times what the lowest paid person receive, so they share in the fruits of their labors.  (Japan used to follow something which seemed similar to this)  So it sounds like a more genital and humane capitalism?

Another example from her was the Dr. Bonners Soap Company? 

Anyone know of either of these examples?

From what I gather after our discussion, many of the youth today see the hand writing on the wall and know they must do something for a better different equitable society

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Napolean DoneHisPart's avatar

By Napolean DoneHisPart, September 26, 2010 at 12:54 pm Link to this comment

Remember, to try and ‘keep’ and horde the ‘luxuries’ and that pursuit of that lifestyle of ‘the rich and famous’ which is the very carrot which gets us desiring, envying and chasing after the wind…

This is the very thing ‘used’ against us to get us to hamster wheel the machine

Watch this, listen carefully and realize WE NEED TO BREAK THE MACHINE… or at least its stranglehold on the chattel… and WE need to STOP working for it too!

That means leaving that nice and comfortable GOVERNMENT / STATE supported job… part of the broken bureaucracy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcx9BJRadfw&feature=player_embedded

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By Napolean DoneHisPart, September 26, 2010 at 12:48 pm Link to this comment

I guess I meant instead of establishing a code of ethics like not getting the Mercedes instead of the Electric Car for example… the green house instead of the trip to Hawaii.. again.

People making Personal choices like that… starting with us as the examples and helping others learn, understand and progress with the real change from a (self) consuming society to a restoring, replenishing society.

We won’t need to ‘fight’ against or ‘vote’ against whatever if we simply change our points of view, our immediate shopping / living habits just a bit at a time… once we see the difference in our bottom line and the outcome of human growth… the 100th monkey effect will propel the same conscience to move the people forward from economic slavery to sovereign independence and prosperity.

Look up the 100th monkey.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ux0tm9SQtQM

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, September 26, 2010 at 12:09 pm Link to this comment

You have to be careful that you don’t use yourself as the
yardstick.  Some people really like their Mercedes and can
afford it.  Why should they give that up?  The new system,
socialized capitalism would not take all personal preference
away, especially if it can be afforded.  It is NOT a rehashing
of socialism or communism.  The word socialized has the root
social, from L. socialis “united, living with others,” from socius
“companion, also meaning “living or liking to live with others,
disposed to friendly intercourse,” and “pertaining to society as
a natural condition of human life” first attested 1695 in John
Locke.  That is the beauty of the new system in that people
can still have their WiFis and other toys.  If that is not part of the
conditions, very few would participate and we don’t want to shoot
it in the foot before it can even walk. 

Most of what you say, in my opinion, Napoleon DoneHisPart, does
have the coat of rightness to it and would without a doubt go towards
undermining the underlying premises by which Corporate America
operates.  But I think broadbrush major changes would be the most
difficult to install, which is part of the fundamental reason for
proceeding the way Socialized Capitalism is suggesting.  By members
of the society realizing their own power and acting in ways that
promote that.  It is not subversive of government, on subversive of the
premises of the economic system that is really good for the wealthy and
corporations but wholly damaging to the society at large.  Educating
oneself is possible for those wide awake enough to be able to do it, but
I submit, having been part of the institution of education for about
thirty years, autodidacticism is not the normal interests of the general
public.  Those who know are the ones that need to find clever ways to
educate the public, help the public rather than become tyrants throwing
this and that out.  This program will be like a stealth bomber, unseen
until it is too late to reverse the taking over of the economic program
by the people for the people.  That is the objective.  It really is a radical
idea but subversive in a good way. After all this society is for the
people, not a select few.

If, however, the word social sticks in the craw, then a better word that
captures the idea needs to be suggested in its place.

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Napolean DoneHisPart's avatar

By Napolean DoneHisPart, September 26, 2010 at 10:51 am Link to this comment

Whoever ‘thinks’ they coined whatever phrase and what have you… sure thing boss… it doesn’t make a lick of difference…

Let’s not try and start patenting our thoughts and marking our territory so quickly… jeeez..

Let’s think of how to simplify what we already have, expel what we know is not good, and further spur the development of an honest MODEL in terms of direction… considering environment, real things of real value and self-sustainability able to be reproduced and adapted to easily by your typical city dweller.

I don’t like the idea of trying to attach the word ‘social’ to ‘capitalism’ for historic, perspective, social connotation and other reasons.. the language one uses when DEFINING something is very important, much like how the Constitution was penned and every nuance being particular… so we need attempt that aim here.

Let’s first work quickly on points of interest!!

Many have already been mentioned here and we’ve all eluded to in prior posts, myself included.

- ELIMINATE contracting with BANKS!  SEVER ALL TIES WITH FDIC, FED RES, IMF, ETC.  REMOVE YOUR MONEY FROM THEIR COFFERS / THEIR POSSESSION / THEIR JURISDICTION

- If saving money, try efforts similar to Kiva.org, micro financing local efforts, community banks based on community securities and real things of real value

- To grow your money, invest in funding projects ( if you don’t know, start reading and learn )

I think we’re seeing a move from the city to the country by frugal intellectuals with a creative sense of a new paradigm of modern living without consuming but further harvesting everywhere - feed the earth to feed ourselves -... with technology being a catalyst and bridge to some continued lifestyles and some not.

- ELIMINATE purchasing goods and services from CORPORATIONS / ENTITIES not founded, owned or operated and serviced ( labor ) within your respective country, state, city, community, etc. ( more definition needed )... mostly publicly traded / gambled companies run for profit over people’s needs.

- SUPPORT local food producers, artisans, business and services, etc.. local, city, state, region, etc..

- EDUCATE ourselves and one another on key principles to basic economics emphasizing secured loans, secured investments, assets as opposed to liabilities ( Rich Dad comes to mind )

- DECREASE our appetite for trinkets and those things directly marketed to us which satisfy us only briefly.

- NEW PARADIGM from my chair- experiencing life MORE in terms of interaction and cohesiveness with others, community and symbiosis of the human nature and LESS in terms of material possessions like the Mercedes or toys and such…. more into ‘possessing’ self sustaining systems of either produce, services or necessity… less of inanimate objects that only have conceptual value.

I see gold like this, not as what everyone flees to in times of trouble… I see gold as the inanimate object it actually is possessing a perceived value… like the fiat currency we currently are subjugated into pushing around.

Agricultural Land is valuable, natural resources like fresh water and animals and crops are valuable… the real basics are becoming really valuable because they are tangible, useful and sustaining…. you can’t eat gold, nor stock options nor the mercedes benz, nor the Armani…

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By Shenonymous, September 26, 2010 at 9:39 am Link to this comment

Anarcissie, you know that I always appreciate your lucid observations
and comments.  I do not think there are any examples of socialized
capitalism of this kind working.  I believe this is a new idea insofar
as it has really never been applied on such a wide scale before. 

Some small examples are the Cooper Union (a privately supported art
and engineering school in New York City generally thought to be the
top of the line) you suggested back in July on the Morality and Markets
forum, or the Bank of ?North Dakota is another example of a ?prototype. 
However, as TG cautioned, “socialized capitalism will have to ?consist of
more than the banking industry if it is to replace the economic system
of an entity as large and complex as the US.”  Leefeller has suggested
some small group cases in the realm of agriculture.  At this stage it is
experimental.

On every news editorial program that I happen to occasion now and
then, to see what the bubbleheads, uh, pundits, are saying since
governmental policy gets made that way, as legislators often appear as
commenting guests, I hear repeatedly that reforms are desperately
needed.  But the kinds of reforms offered, if any at all are offered, only
goes to keep the old system as it was.  The stranglehold the corporate
world has on the throats of the public’s purse and welfare, will continue
with just barely any changes being booted around.  I can foresee
essentially no significant changes for the benefit to the public.  For
instance, a little loosening of mortgage money for the public to buy
houses might take place but not enough to help the mass of people
needing housing.  I would guess that no one really ‘needs’ a house. 
But the alternative of renting is exploitive when the rents are beyond
what is affordable.  Many don’t want the responsibility of owning a
house and all that is incumbent with such ownership, i.e., taxes,
upkeep, maintenance of the grounds if there are any, and so forth. 
That is entirely a personal choice. But those who do want that
responsibility ought somehow to be able to afford it. 

I predict that if this movement actually gets started, a mantic reaction
will motivate politicians to get their asses in gear and make hasty
retreats to get ahead of it all.  Just mark my words.  They will become
frenzied as they see the people are actually retrieving their country
back.

More from ThomasG that made sense… “the markets will work just as
well with social capital as with private capital, and the proof is private
capital.

Private capital as a natural consequence of its operation provides a
revenue stream to private interests and has been very efficient in doing
so; that same efficiency applies equally to social capital.  As he
described in his August 1, 2010 10:47pm post on the Jollimore Morality
and Markets forum, a revenue stream from social capital to social
interests will be provided with the same efficiency as does private
capital to the privatized capitalism system.  Any claim to the contrary
would be to claim that private capital cannot and will not provide a
private revenue stream for private purpose; and, as we can all see by
even a quick look at the marketplace, to do so would be a false
observation.  “Socialized Capitalism would be driven by Social Capital
and the existing system, Privatized Capitalism, is driven by Private
Capital.” Socialized capitalism is an alternative economic solution to
privatized capitalism. 

You can bet there will be strong opposition because there will be those
whose sole expenditure of energy and purpose is the survival of private
capital and its revenue stream to perpetuate privatized capitalism
expressly at the expense of and to prevent socialized capitalism that
would whittle away its massive profits.

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By Shenonymous, September 26, 2010 at 9:33 am Link to this comment

This thesis needs to be repeated over and over and over to the
public until understanding dawns in a newly awakened state of
consciousness of all of the people in the society even the wealthy
and corporate powerhouses so that they know the people have
taken their country back from their clutches.  I know these vultures
will panic and scramble to see how they can counteract the avenging
fugitive consumers.  It will be from the society’s personal natural
resources mutated into social resources, social capital that will entice
them to participate in earnest.

How can we accelerate this process?  ThomasG thinks this is a long
term process much like Darwin’s evolution.  But with the evolution of
human consciousness humans can speed up processes that are not
restricted by genetic time lapses.  But can effect changes from the
intuitions of how to best make things work.  It is called human
ingenuity and we know that it does exist.  Just think of the difference
from Neanderthals living in caves to the amazing compounds that are
occupied by those who live in the Hamptons! 

I am thinking of creating a blog site just for the purpose of dialogue
and instruction about how to effect this social change beyond the
exercise of government, and I want to stress, without any militaristic
anarchic action. But through rational and sane steps towards self-
determination by the people of our society.

If that means helping groups start coops, or credit unions then that is
the kind of networking social capital at work funding socialized
capitalism will facilitate.  For instance, not all people have access to
credit unions because they are mostly created within specific fields of
work and labor, i.e., education in the form of schools credit unions, or
manufacturing laborers’ credit unions.  So how are those not belonging
to those professions able to have that kind of cooperative benefit?  I
say to create Civic Credit Unions.  How credit unions are formed is the
question then and there are those right here on these forums who have
that knowledge.  How are grocery market cooperatives formed.  That
really only means that what ever markets are formed are specifically
owned by all members of the group for their own consumption. In my
education I learned that the reason why groups incorporate, even social
clubs do it, is to provide protection from legal actions, for no other
reason!  These are some beneficial reasons for reverting to earlier
times, where we actually learn from history instead of just making note
of it!

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By Anarcissie, September 26, 2010 at 9:02 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous—I think it would be helpful to give some concrete examples of instances of socialized capitalism, differentiating them from traditional capitalism, state capitalism, social democracy and so forth.  This was something I was unable to elicit from ThomasG.

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By archivesDave, September 26, 2010 at 8:54 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous and Leefeller:
From time to time, Hartmann has touted industrial cooperatives which seem to work along the same principle.
Ah, remember the good ol’ hippy communes…I kept on
looking for one that really functioned but the ones around the Seattle area finally just disintegrated.
Are there any still around the US or elsewhere?

Perhaps you or someone else could give us a template
if one truly does exist.

It better be damn quick tho, the Globalists are licking their chops and the ‘goose is almost cooked’.

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By Leefeller, September 26, 2010 at 8:16 am Link to this comment

Social Capitalism (SC)  sounds most fascinating She. 

People have been eluding here on TD and in my community for some time on a simple concept of Social Capitalism using local money for example.  Then people on posts here recommending not using credit cards to using credit Unions. From growing ones own food to shopping at farmers markets.  These are baby steps but ideas transformed into action must start somewhere.

Evolving of Social Capitalism, may take many forms, possibly already may be happening in a small way, as community gardens?

After WWII, the commons was a way for people to have a place to do social farmings in the Netherlands sort of as common land? ......(I must find out more about this from the person who mentioned it to me).

I suspect Privileged opportunists see social capital, as a chicken to be plucked for profit or a juicy revenue stream. It will take an immense amount of integrity to propagate and survive, for the vultures of capitalism will peck at it with due diligence.

Looking at existing things in our society presently, the concept of revenue streams for social capital may be Social Security or Medicare, possibility the post office but not locally.  Locally would they be non profits, such as the Humane Society, or hospitals sponsored by Religious organizations? 

These examples are as close as I see the concept of Social Capital right now, for I may be missing the main concept of Social Capitalism entirely? I need to read and dissect Shes examples once more.

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By Shenonymous, September 26, 2010 at 6:10 am Link to this comment

The cosmologists say, archivesDave, that the closer a thing gets
to a black hole the faster it gets drawn into it until it completely
disappears.

Well Napoleon DoneHisPart, perhaps we can limp along together
(which is something Socrates would say, and often did) to find our
way through the enigma of sketching at least a plausible way to a
better economic system and by that virtue, promise of a better life. 

Socialized capitalism in two parts.  Shall we get started?
Part 1.
While he does not have the greatest finesse when posting on the
forums, including explaining the politico-economic plan he is
promoting, ThomasG has on several forums presented the conception
called socialized capitalism well enough that even I a neophyte was able
to understand its essence.  Also he has said that the idea he presents
is his own, that he did not get the idea from elsewhere but that the
concept emerged in him as his own independent thought (ThomasG,
August 6 12:07pm, Truthdig, Troy Jollimore, On Markets and Morality). 
Maybe his unique conception is original…but in my research I’ve found
the notion has a long history, at least as far back as the late 1920s.  I
now have a number of texts for a decent bibliography I’ve put together. 
And I’ve even purchased a few.  Yikes.

Besides the Jollimore article forum, he says he has discussed socialized
capitalism on the following forums as well which might be worth
looking up.  I know I have participated on one or two of them but I
want to see all his comments to try to have a more three-dimensional
view of how the system could work.  It is worth the shot:

“Hi Ho American Capitalism”
“Financial Meltdown 101”
“This Country Needs a Few Good Communists”
“Pitfalls of Soaking the Rich”
“Fiddling While the Economy Burns”
“Chris Hedges and Derrick Jensen on Totalitarianism and Resistance”
“David Sirota’s Are Low Taxes Exacerbating the Recession”
“If Only Information Flowed as Freely as Oil”

I have analyzed ThomasG’s proposition and concluded it has a high
probability of success to effect a change in the mindset of the American
public once its basic premises are understood and envoys and the
institutions are put in place to provide a stabilizing foundation.  I will
try to say why I think it has a high probability for success.

There is bound to be a competition for survival between socialized
capitalism and privatized capitalism the intention.  Socialized capitalism
will provide the same kind of revenue stream as its twin, privatized
capitalism.  Revenue stream is the method used to earn or collect
money from various sources.  It is by and large just another name for
income, but most likely because it sounds more sophisticated than the
word “sales” or “salary,” and because it includes the direct benefit of the
‘concerted effort’ that results from a collection of individuals united for
a single purpose, it is just that much more descriptive than the world
‘capital.’ 

The idea of revenue stream is a term borrowed from the special
language of the investment world where assets are said to have a
“future revenue stream” or from government where it is less crass-
sounding than the flow of monies from “taxes.”  But along with the
calculated value created from cooperatives or network generated
productivity, which would include all the ways of financial and goods
market exchange, it can be seen as ‘social’ capital because it is made
for the society and used exclusively by the society, ergo, the word
social is used.

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By Shenonymous, September 26, 2010 at 6:04 am Link to this comment

Socialized capitalism in two parts.
Part 2.
How well socialized capitalism matures will depend on how well
the population resolutely cuts their ties to the corporate patriarchs
by investing their resources both financial and all other kinds of
social capital into their own living needs and interests, thereby
diminishing the relentless superiority privatized capitalism has had
over the society for centuries.  Psychologically the people have been
serfs without being conscious of it.  Although silent, without violence,
it will be a potent action of the people against the power of the elite
in the form of slowly but surely scuttling corporate sovereignty.

Let me see if I can put this in some coherent statement:  Socialized
capitalism will be in direct competition with privatized capitalism.
For instance, the stock market will function in the same manner as
it presently does, as it currently operates; the significant change to
the stock market will come as a result of who the buyers, sellers,
and recipients of benefit are from the revenue stream created by
social capital.  All levels of government, from cities to the federal,
and cooperatives together with all social entities, institutions of
business, industry, and commerce would constitute the market in
terms of social stock in a socialized capitalism system.  A ‘socialized’
stock market, with the ordinary sellers and buyers, would exist for the
express recipients of benefit, the people of the society, all generated
from the revenue stream of social capital.

Such a revenue stream will fund operational expenses of government
all the way from city expenses to county, state, and Federal expenses.
The revenue stream of all social capital would in effect reduce the tax
burden of individual citizens in their capacity as employees and as
consumers. To the extent this form of revenue stream created from
social capital provides all operating expenses, the tax burden upon the
American population and in particular the middle class, would be
removed.  This is a huge incentive to make the system work.

Of course this is an ideal construction.  It will take a great amount of
thinking through to make it sophisticated enough to work.  We have
some success stories from history, models provided by the likes of
Hanifan, Dewey, and Milbank, all respected and venerated figures who
made huge differences in communities, education, and the medical care
for our national society.

Thus we start our climb out of the hellhole of corporate domination,
and all constructive contributing minds are welcome. 

I’m sure I’ve left out something, probably many things, not discussed
fully enough particular things, but as I’ve offered the mea culpa, I am
not omniscient so I will rely on better minds than mine to point out
what needs more buffing.

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By archivesDave, September 25, 2010 at 8:08 pm Link to this comment

elisalouisa:
“Met(g) Whitman and Carly Fiorina are neck-in-neck with two democrats, Brown and Boxer. Whitman and Fiorina are for the power/elite in a big way. Why are voters unaware of what is going on? The spin has worked and they blame government rather than corporations for the state of the nation and deteriorating conditions in our state. That is what we must confront right now for if this trend is not reversed we really won’t have a say as to the type of government we shall live under.”

As usual, the ‘ordo ab chao’ folks have all the aces and ‘jokers’...  One side places most of the blame on Govt and the other places most of it on the Corporatists.
Certainly Brown et company may do a little less damage short term but many are hip now as to where all of this is heading and the Elitists really don’t care.  Did u see the last link I posted by Icke?

It’s already a fait de compli unless we the people
get our s*^t together FAST.

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By elisalouisa, September 25, 2010 at 7:36 pm Link to this comment

No way archieves Dave have I deciphered a lot of Hagger’s 29 works. I do find his work interesting perhaps because of where he comes from, namely a belief in a higher power. As to social capitalism, that indeed is a noble subject as
Shen’s posts demonstrate. However, to me the real problem is how to prevent   spoilers from making corporation more powerful. In my state of California for instance, Met Whitman and Carly Fiorina are neck-in-neck with two democrats, Brown and Boxer. Whitman and Fiorina are for the power/elite in a big way. Why are voters unaware of what is going on? The spin has worked and they blame government rather than corporations for the state of the nation and deteriorating conditions in our state. That is what we must confront right now for if this trend is not reversed we really won’t have a say as to the type of government we shall live under.
Added note: I have been reading Peter Hitchens’ The Rage Against God which is quite revealing in more than one way.

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By archivesDave, September 25, 2010 at 5:58 pm Link to this comment

Napolean DoneHisPart:


“This is a site I put together:

http://www.smartpeoplesmartmoney.com/”

Thanks NDHP:  Enjoyed perusing it…

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By Napolean DoneHisPart, September 25, 2010 at 5:30 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous, thank you for your kind words in regards to the site…. I’ve worked extensively on gathering and sifting information to get stuff that makes sense… and is true, factual and supported… and I hope my opinions are just coloring / fluff if you will… thanks!

Now I’ll say this trying not to mirror your kindness and seem too flattering- but I really like how you put your thoughts down into words… so clear, so logical and so refreshing to read, actually.

My opinion from some personal experience regarding the economy or bad news heard about it ( I have a variety of friends both rich and poor ) is that some friends of mine have no problem today in this economy, their job or work was never threatened.. they may have even thrived in this environment… others on the other hand, most I know are working class, almost poor folks.. their story has been strikingly different… they DO FEEL AND SENSE fear in their work environment, neighborhood and such… and have first hand experience with foreclosure, layoff, etc…. ON TOP of hearing it daily in the news.. further worsening the psychological effect of folks..

That said, the ‘upper’ economy like stock market, luxury items and those rich playgrounds and marketable materials for the wealthy… that market has progressed through a streamlining of sorts… but the cutting of fat always is seen among the labor force, the people, those who manage, work or labor for the marketable materials created by people.

I see more creations of sub-cultures and wider pockets of disparity… while many not feeling the current greed grab seem to only further confine themselves into their spheres… their safe and pretty bubbles of ignoring and redirecting their focus and energy to ‘prettier things, like that diamond ring.’

I must say that your discourse Shenonymous is more on-point and sobering than the mud being slung around TD… even my mud which I seem throw at most, including at myself wink

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By Shenonymous, September 25, 2010 at 12:07 pm Link to this comment

One more thing…

As is my usual habit on TD, here is
http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=lmM0uyGr-YM

“Ain’t Talkin’” – Bob Dylan

As I walked out tonight in the mystic garden
The wounded flowers were dangling from the vine
I was passing by yon cool crystal fountain
Someone hit me from behind

Ain’t talking, just walking
Through this weary world of woe
Heart burning, still yearning
No one on earth would ever know

They say prayer has the power to heal
So pray for me, mother
In the human heart an evil spirit can dwell
I am trying to love my neighbor and do good unto others
But oh, mother, things ain’t going well

Ain’t talking, just walking
I’ll burn that bridge before you can cross
Heart burning, still yearning
There’ll be no mercy for you once you’ve lost

Now I’m all worn down by weeping
My eyes are filled with tears, my lips are dry
If I catch my opponents ever sleeping
I’ll just slaughter them where they lie

Ain’t talking, just walking
Through the world mysterious and vague
Heart burning, still yearning
Walking through the cities of the plague.

Well, the whole world is filled with speculation
The whole wide world which people say is round
They will tear your mind away from contemplation
They will jump on your misfortune when you’re down

Ain’t talking, just walking
Eating hog eyed grease in a hog eyed town.
Heart burning, still yearning
Some day you’ll be glad to have me around.

They will crush you with wealth and power
Every waking moment you could crack
I’ll make the most of one last extra hour
I’ll revenge my father’s death then I’ll step back

Ain’t talking, just walking
Hand me down my walking cane.
Heart burning, still yearning
Got to get you out of my miserable brain.

All my loyal and my much-loved companions
They approve of me and share my code
I practice a faith that’s been long abandoned
Ain’t no altars on this long and lonesome road

Ain’t talking, just walking
My mule is sick, my horse is blind.
Heart burning, still yearning
Thinking about that girl I left behind.

Well, it’s bright in the heavens and the wheels are flying
Fame and honor never seem to fade
The fire gone out but the light is never dying
Who says I can’t get heavenly aid?

Ain’t talking, just walking
Carrying a dead man’s shield
Heart burning, still yearning
Walking with an ache in my heel

The suffering is unending
Every nook and cranny has its tears
I’m not playing, I’m not pretending
I’m not nursing any superfluous fears

Ain’t talking, just walking
Walking ever since the other night.
Heart burning, still yearning
Walking until I’m clean out of sight.

As I walked out in the mystic garden
On a hot summer day, a hot summer lawn
Excuse me, ma’am, I beg your pardon
There’s no one here, the gardener is gone

Ain’t talking, just walking
Up the road, around the bend.
Heart burning, still yearning
In the last outback at the world’s end.

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By Shenonymous, September 25, 2010 at 12:01 pm Link to this comment

There is nothing more to do with my spare weekend time (other
than the required ordinary mundane life sustaining things) than
my wanting to continue a quest for a better way for humans to
exist decently within a society than working here even among
humans who exist only as electronic ghosts and to cancel the
effects of those who would at every turn take advantage of most
who are unsuspecting and most exploited.  There is nothing hidden
or sinister in what is being proposed.  I have to say, though, that I
was taken aback by what I consider madness of the fearful having
shown up on this forum who yield to ravings of fanatics.  As one
who has the absolute highest regard only for one’s own thinking
and one’s own conclusions I have seen that madness begets madness
when stresses are imposed from the ambience of a society that has
become nearly dysfunctional.  Using other thinkers who might have a
reasonable take on life and its processes of thought is a perfectly good
practice.  The only boundary I put on it, is for one to think through
what is said and to restate it in one’s conclusions.  Quotes and
references (a must) are good too, but a restatement to show under-
standing is for me also a critical requirement.  I would hope everyone
else feels that way as well, otherwise we float in a world of personal
opinion. 

I don’t think the country is headed for a collapse as some do, the signs
just really are not there regardless of signs wished to be there for
whatever agenda resides in certain pessimistic hearts.  Market reports
from PBS of the financial state of this country are “encouraging” for the
first time in two years.  And the marketplace is going upwardly nuts,
but it might be premature euphoria and possibly all ought to be
guarded if not completely watching with squinty eyes.  A fast sinking
situation could lead everyone back into the rabbit hole before one can
even say white rabbit.  Such is the volatile nature of human reactions.

Thank you for asking me to stay.  So trying to keep the gibberish at a
minimum…I am formulating how socialized capitalism does not
eliminate privatized capitalism for a post later this evening.

I was impressed with Napolean DoneHisPart’s website.  It is encouraging
to see another mind, other minds, putting their constructive thoughts to
the dire social problems we humans face in lieu of just describing the
problems.  Not that description is not needed; articulation of our sea of
troubles is the step right after recognition.  But after expressing the
shape of the problems and kicking ideas around to see the real shape
from various ideological viewpoints, actions need to be inflected and a
rational course of action forged.

Thomas Hart Benton used a boat to symbolize humanity, whereas I
often use a raft to symbolize life, particularly my life, but nevertheless I
immediately understood his point of people who have turned their
heads away from each other.  Artist Phillip Pearlstein used a similar
iconography to signify how remote from each other people can get.  On
my raft, people do not turn away from the realities of social life as we
all hang on for dear life and hang onto each other (my notion of
society), having come as individuals to understand that life really is
dear.  But the turbid ocean of vagaries and vicissitudes, the hostilities
of the environment that so much presents spirit-breaking events and
self-serving manipulative individuals, are detriments that courage to
weather them and directly face them squarely is the only virtuous
reaction.  Many cannot muster such courage to prevail and give up in a
few ways, capitulation to the hands and demands of power, jumping
overboard, or withdrawing into depressions doing nothing taking
whatever shit happens to them resigned that they are helpless before
the beasts.

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By Leefeller, September 25, 2010 at 10:20 am Link to this comment

Shester Testimonial!

Enlightenment as Shester pens or keyboards, has my support to continue,..... otherwise the ensuing void may even exceed the vast empty space between the ears of the TD unenlightened!..... (Meaning; the usual Imbeciles, idiots, and morons)

Please continue She!

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By Napolean DoneHisPart, September 25, 2010 at 9:10 am Link to this comment

This is a site I put together:

http://www.smartpeoplesmartmoney.com/

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By Napolean DoneHisPart, September 25, 2010 at 9:08 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous, great post and points well taken.. but please don’t leave the discourse, we need your clarity and fact writing.

With that said, folks do try and put a face to what is occurring around them.  And we see our hired servants and public officials NOT obeying their oaths of office and CONTINUE to be in collusion with themselves and end up not serving their constituents but their check writers / lobbyists.

Whether its the Masons, the Bilderberg, etc…. or even Santa Claus that is manipulating all things from the north frozen pole…. THE FACT REMAINS- Someone other than the men WE hired are calling the shots.

John Kennedy did mention a secret society when addressing the press club:

Condensed version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhZk8ronces

Thanks archivesDave, those banksters are the real culprits…. the money changers if you will.

This is a site I put together to expose the money illusion- and ad clicks would be greatly appreciated, since that’s the way the site pays for its upkeep…

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By Anarcissie, September 25, 2010 at 7:14 am Link to this comment

http://www.concernedhumanity.com/blog.html is certainly atrociously designed as a web page.  That seems to be a common attribute of conspiratist web sites, whereas cults in general often have fairly good design.  I wonder if there is some kind of underlying psychological structure to that pattern.  One might guess, for instance, that people with good design sense are more attracted to hysteria than paranoia.

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By archivesDave, September 24, 2010 at 11:55 pm Link to this comment

Napoleondonehispart:

Extremely astute comments and references.

I particularly liked your link

http://www.concernedhumanity.com/blog.html

and highly recommend it.

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By Shenonymous, September 24, 2010 at 11:47 pm Link to this comment

It is fantastic how many permutations of occultism can emerge in
the world. Within the realm of antigovernment paranoia, New World
Order forces attempt to manipulate and control the ignorant public
from every source conceivable that include images seen on your TV
and computer as well as in the bowls of your toilets.  What Salbuchi
is peddling is a version of population control theory Argentinian style
focused on the monetary domain of the world.  I am always surprised
at how many tricksters show up on these forums.  Now we have
Hagger and his Universalism, the babble from Concerned Humanity and
the Heyokas, and quite frankly (I did peruse the sites), it is my belief
that all suffer from a psychosis, just as all religionists and ersatz
religionists do.

Plainly some of the TDers are emotionally agitated enough to
persistently try to slip in various conspiracy theories in order to find
some sympathetic souls that will give them comfort.  The problem I see
with Salbuchi’s particular conspiracy species (all the others suffer the
same imperfection) is that he gives no way to verify his claims and
therefore cannot be challenged.  That in itself sends a clear signal that
what is read or heard might sound rational but it does not provide a
way to verify it as probable truth, therefore it is rightfully suspect.
Ironically the insane often sound sane.

Once before I had traveled the road of assessing Salbuchi, on the
Greeks Get It forum, and in watching his latest youtube video, he’s not
changed one centimeter so no new reason to swallow his accusations
any more than before.  He is still the demagogue and he even says
himself he’s an autodidact having no education or credentials other
than himself.  This appeals to many who are likewise uneducated yet
feel they know everything.  He still sounds like a raving cheerleader and
wannabe warrior, that would include bloody battles and a philosophy of
Social Darwinism, which has been shown to be an absurd position and
one that the Intelligent Designers use as a playbook, all thrown into one
bucket called Adrian Salbuchi.

These neo-gurus charm altarboys and girls because they keep their
Internet blogs up and youtube videos and those seeking, as I said,
comfort, will find them very attractive.  I don’t buy Salbuchi’s rhetorical
form of anarchy and put it in the same category as other conspiracy
theories as 9/11 and all of the New World Order Bilderberg Group
beeswaxing· Black helicopters · Bohemian Grove · Club of Rome ·
Council on Foreign Relations · The Fellowship · Illuminati · Judaeo-
Masonic-Marxist plot · Dominionists ·The Protocols of the Elders of Zion
· Freemasons · North American Union · ODESSA · Skull and Bones ·
Trilateral Commission and now you can add the ravings of John LeKay
and Keyoka.

It is stunning how many freaky organizations there are in the world.  It
is romantic to glom on to something that seems bigger than oneself.  It
is the primitivism of the religious impulse.  I’m surprised the Wiccans
haven’t chimed in here yet?

What is it in human nature that drives them to create alternative worlds
peopled by shadowy figures?  Mainly the attempt to stave off fear of
random violence and unpredictable death. Alternate realities are created
because the world is rejected that has the situation where a single
madman can bring down a president, a reckless driver can snuff out a
princess, and a few radicalized men with box cutters can terrorize a
country. Giving misery and injustice an identity makes life so much
more bearable.

Just for fun check out the bottom of the Wikipedia article at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory for all the beguilingly
cabalistic theories in the world. 

This forum has descended to a place where I do not wish to be so I’m
off to better and more rational pastures.

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By Napolean DoneHisPart, September 24, 2010 at 9:58 pm Link to this comment

Anyone ever read the Banker’s Manifesto?

We (the bankers) must proceed with caution and guard every move made, for the lower order of people are already showing signs of restless commotion. Prudence will therefore show a policy of apparently yielding to the popular will until our plans are so far consummated that we can declare our designs without fear of any organized resistance.

Organizations in the United States should be carefully watched by our trusted men, and we must take immediate steps to control these organizations in our interest or disrupt them.

At the coming Omaha convention to be held July 4, 1892, our men must attend and direct its movement or else there will be set on foot such antagonism to our designs as may require force to overcome.

This at the present time would be premature. We are not yet ready for such a crisis. Capital must protect itself in every possible manner through combination (conspiracy) and legislation.

The courts must be called to our aid, debts must be collected, bonds and mortgages foreclosed as rapidly as possible.

When, through the process of law, the common people have lost their homes, they will be more tractable and easily governed through the influence of the strong arm of the government applied to a central power of imperial wealth under the control of the leading financiers.

People without homes will not quarrel with their leaders. History repeats itself in regular cycles. This truth is well known among our principal men who are engaged in forming an imperialism of the world. While they are doing this, the people must be kept in a state of political antagonism.

The question of tariff reform must be urged through the organization known as the Democratic Party, and the question of protection with the reciprocity must be forced to view through the Republican Party.

By thus dividing voters, we can get them to expend their energies in fighting over questions of no importance to us, except as teachers to the common herd. Thus, by discrete actions, we can secure all that has been so generously planned and successfully accomplished.

http://www.heyokamagazine.com/heyoka_magazine.27.bankersmanifesto.htm

http://www.concernedhumanity.com/blog.html

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By archivesDave, September 24, 2010 at 9:14 pm Link to this comment

Elisalouisa:
Congrats…you have deciphered a lot of Hagger’s 29
works that I have yet to engage in.
Perhaps you could enlighten us on how he deals with
social capitalism as well as other aspects.

He is most definitely as much a philosopher as he is
a historian which makes him so fascinating.

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By Night-Gaunt, September 24, 2010 at 1:31 pm Link to this comment

I would be interested in seeing how the Libertarian Fat Freddy would take the opposition to this. I agree with you Shenonymous but it would be interesting to see it dissected and its opposite to a greater detail.

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By Napolean DoneHisPart, September 24, 2010 at 8:28 am Link to this comment

I really like what Shenonymous wrote just now…

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By Shenonymous, September 24, 2010 at 8:16 am Link to this comment

What socialized capitalism is not.  It is not a big take over the
government by any clearly defined group or set of persons.  It is an
idea. It is a way for the general public to manage their existence
within the margins of the social order in which they live.  It is an
awakening by the people to use their own potency to determine their
lives and to neutralize the effects of the opportunist corporate world
through the intensity of the wealth generated through their actions
brought to bear on the entire population and their extreme exploitation
of the needs of the citizenry.  It is a quiet revolution. ‘Quiet’ revolution
because it noiselessly crafts itself as the principle behavior of a society
that is independent from an insensitive government and manipulative
corporate control.

Funded through social capital, socialized capitalism is a way to nullify
the injustice of the ceaseless taking the collective wealth of the society
it needs for even the basic life sustaining goods and services that are
rightfully due to the citizens.

Strength must be negated of politicians who legislate for the
government giving the wealthy and corporate class the unobstructed
avenue to exploit the entire supply of resources of that citizenry who
are not members of the privileged class depriving them of their rightful
possession by removing those politicians from office with great
prejudice as swiftly as lawfully possible. 

My definition:  A democratic government’s essential role and duties are
to manage and administer an extensive set of integrated course of
actions for the express purpose to promote the general welfare of its
citizens. 

A classic definition:  Public goods are goods or services that can be
consumed by several individuals simultaneously without diminishing the
value of consumption to any one of the individuals. This key egalitarian
application of public goods that multiple individuals can consume the
same good without diminishing its value is termed non-rivalry. Non-
competition is what most strongly distinguishes public goods from
private goods and this includes ‘pure’ public goods. A pure public good
is non-excludable, that is, an individual cannot be prevented from
consuming the good whether or not the individual pays for it, for
example, fresh air, potable water, a public park, a beautiful view,
national defense.

Because of its tendency of social irresponsibility and lack of community
spirit, a government based on privatized capitalism grossly fails to
provide a sufficient level of public goods and health-giving services to
its citizens. To counteract this failure, provision of public goods for the
public welfare requires collective action. People need to realize
independently or be made to realize when for some reason or another
they cannot that a public goods deficit situation exists. Democratic
government inheres responsible action to provide remedies for the
public good through the use of general taxation.

When the government fails, the people have morally-legitimate recourse
to resort to their own morally-legitimate devices.  Socialized capitalism
is one such device.  There is therefore a call for the public to enter into
actions that they can in every way restore their right to the wealth and
natural resources of their country by forming communitarian collectives,
unions such as banking credit unions and other currency exchange
institutions such as real estate, ESOPs (Employee stock ownership plans)
and work-related unions to insure equitable remuneration for labor,
market associations, and agricultural and environmental preservation
cooperatives.  That means electing public representatives who can
demonstrate a history of their actions their sympathies for the welfare
of the people.

To be continued…most likely this weekend, where socialized capitalism
does not eliminate privatized capitalism but rather shrinks it to its
proper size.

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By elisalouisa, September 23, 2010 at 4:18 pm Link to this comment

“What goes for computers works for human brains as well. But it may only seem like “gibberish” but it could also be either more complex to understand or mythological or a complete misreading of the world too.”
True Night-Gaunt. In my view msm has gibberish. So much double talk saying absolutely nothing.

Excerpt on page 30 from: The New Philosophy of Universalism subtitle The Infinite and The Law of Order by Nicholas Hagger, one of Archive Dave’s favorite authors. 

In the late 14th century there was a trend away from Aristolelianism. William of Ockham rejected the “old way” (via antiqua) of Thomism and Scotism and followed the “modern way” (via moderna). Like Scotus he opposed the Aristotelian Greek-Arab emphasis on God as a first cause, but stressed God’s freedom. There are no “common natures” he claimed, but only individual things. Everything could have been different - stars, fire, morality- if God had so willed, but creation was done with economy of thought and the bare minimum number of beings necessary, the principle of Ockham’s razor.

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By Anarcissie, September 23, 2010 at 2:43 pm Link to this comment

I’m curious.  Does anyone ever ask Huckabee what his solution to the pre-existing condition problem is?  People tend to moralize at each other about these issues, but there is also a practical aspect to them, and as it stands the pre-existing condition problem is a very strong argument for Single Payer, which surely Huckabee does not want to support. 

Agreed, the concept of thinking something through, or asking another to do so, is weird, and probably utterly foreign to our media and public discourse, but still, by some chance someone just may have raised the question once upon a time.

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By archivesDave, September 23, 2010 at 2:19 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous:
Ahhh good ol’ Paul Simon….
Brings back a lot of memories.
Mrs Robinson too…
Plastic

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By Shenonymous, September 23, 2010 at 1:35 pm Link to this comment

And some people will believe anything.

What is that old adage?  Gibberish in gibberish out?

Or…Dispelling the Din
Hello darkness, my old friend
I’ve come to talk with you again
Because a vision softly creeping
Left its seeds while I was sleeping
And the vision that was planted in my brain
Still remains
Within the sound of silence

In restless dreams I walked alone
Narrow streets of cobblestone
‘Neath the halo of a street lamp
I turned my collar to the cold and damp
When my eyes were stabbed by the flash of a neon light
That split the night
And touched the sound of silence

And in the naked light I saw
Ten thousand people, maybe more
People talking without speaking
People hearing without listening
People writing songs that voices never share
And no one dared
Disturb the sound of silence

“Fools”, said I, “You do not know
Silence like a cancer grows
Hear my words that I might teach you
Take my arms that I might reach you”
But my words, like silent raindrops fell
And echoed
In the wells of silence

And the people bowed and prayed
To the neon god they made
And the sign flashed out its warning
In the words that it was forming
And the sign said, “The words of the prophets are written on the
subway walls
And tenement halls”
And whispered in the sounds of silence

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By Night-Gaunt, September 23, 2010 at 1:13 pm Link to this comment

What goes for computers works for human brains as well. But it may only seem like “gibberish” but it could also be either more complex to understand or mythological or a complete misreading of the world too. The reich-wing’s general tone and point of view isn’t gibberish but it is wrong and anti-human and anti-humanistic. [Note: Recently Mike Huckabee compared covering people with pre-existing conditions as equivalent to a burning house. He was stoutly against protecting both. Though the analogy itself was false. Since a burned down house is a dead one. And who is talking about insuring dead people? Unless he means if you have some such condition you are a walking dead person.] A nasty piece he is & all those who agree with him. A pernicious and truly evil way of looking at the world and human life. Something we don’t want as the new ethos of the USA or anywhere else in the world.

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By Anarcissie, September 23, 2010 at 11:48 am Link to this comment

As to gibberish, nothing is nothing, but gibberish may be something.  Or not….

Well, I shouldn’t say that about nothing.  Sometimes nothing is very powerful; silence, the most powerful and effective assertion.  It is in the context, and we can rely on context to be our constant if ambiguous companion.

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By Shenonymous, September 23, 2010 at 10:37 am Link to this comment

Sorry, I should have given a reference or so for Borges’ political
proclivities.  I am as much heir to such lapses as anyone.  Try
Conversations with Jorge Luis Borges by Richard Burgin, or the one
I have, Borges, A Life by Edwin Williamson who gives an in depth
description of the politics of Argentina 1928.  Borges had his reasons
for supporting the more authoritarian or nationalistic government of
which they were ideological and political where these two domains
can be differentiated, which also had to do with power plays, hence
mostly political and demagoguery that so often accompanies
impassioned politics and where the people’s republic was threatened
with a los of voting rights.  It is all another intricate issue, and which
set of politics is not always?

I understand the tendency for some readers to get caught up in their
own minutia and overlook what a writer thinks is their most important
and grander points.  It gets to be laughable for the most part, but time
can wasted on these very small points, which might seem large to
certain minds because they cannot get beyond their own limited sphere
of knowledge, and if the writer really wants to deal with such trifles.  Oh
well.  Sigh.  To participate on these blogs one takes the good along with
the petty pacers from day to day.

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By Anarcissie, September 23, 2010 at 9:04 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous—I was responding to your saying that others were reading things into your work you hadn’t (intentionally) put there.  I have had the same experience.  Someone once made a great deal out of a trivial phrase in something I had written.  It confused me, but later I realized he had discerned something which was actually in the background of my thinking.  As the pomos note, it is the reader who creates the reading.  But I would not go so far as to say the author is dead and buried; there are still some staggering around.

It is surprising to me that Borges was an anti-Communist; he seems to me like the sort who would take little notice of Communism, or at least not take it very seriously, regardless of its worldly powers.  But he was even on about the half-baked populist fascism of Perón which led him into an unfortunate association with the generals.  Conservatives should stay out of the gutter, and realize that when it comes to power and glory, conservatism is as hopeless as radicalism!

Well, we have come a long way from the unpitiable Democrats.

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By Leefeller, September 23, 2010 at 8:22 am Link to this comment

elisalouisa a gibberish mind or a vacant mind, could be one and the same or not, either or would seem absolutist to me, leaving no room for doubt in the empty mind spewing gibberish?

How is my award coming “The Chicken Little Award of the Year Award”?

The cutting edge of Occam’s Razor may all be in the interpretation, which seems to ring in me ears like the many bells of the Christian Religion or if one is naughty enough,..... they could even end up like Van Gogh!

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By Shenonymous, September 23, 2010 at 8:18 am Link to this comment

It would seem, and it is tenuous that coherence can be extracted
from what was just said, that one is not being coerced to participate
on Truthdig and one gets out of it what one puts into it.  But that
does not prevent wishful thinking.  Striving to be better is that idea
of arête. Truthdig as a blog site offers features that other sites do
not, such as notification of comments and replies, ergo one of the
reasons it is popular.  Topical articles offering food for thought are
another.  However, many only taste test the ideas kicked around like
hit and run artists who really have nothing of value to contribute
save their vacuous comments, mainly because they think they know
something when in fact they have a paucity of knowledge and have
not discovered that of themselves.

The fact that not that many bright minds populate the TD forums is
unimportant if there are some that do. It seems to be the way the entire
world is constructed.  No reason why TD ought to be different.  I also
suggest that if one wants like-minded that one indeed navigate to other
website blogs.  There is nothing like singing to one’s own choir when
unanimous approval is sought.  In lieu of that, stick around for earned
criticisms.

The question of which is better a vacant mind that could have room
for new thought or one filled with gibberish, is amusing and moot as
I would submit they are Siamese twins where the vacant mind might
seem to have lots of room, but nothing stays very long for cogency,
or coherence, which is why it is called vacant.  The ones filled with
gibberish are immediately noticed and given verbal thrashing.  Making
fine distinctions is one sign of an active and fully-invested mind.

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By elisalouisa, September 23, 2010 at 7:24 am Link to this comment

And it was nice to have Borges’ character brought up this morning on the mostly vacant-minded inhabitants of Truthdig.
————
Which could lead one to the inquiry: Which is better a vacant mind (which one much conclude has room for new thought) or a mind filled with gibberish leading one to nowhere? 

Or should one conclude that Truthdig does not consist of either one for such inhabitants are more at home on other forums.

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By Shenonymous, September 23, 2010 at 6:48 am Link to this comment

If you were referring to my last comments, I’m honored, Anarcissie,
to be compared to Jorge Luis Borges, one of my favorite anti-
communists.  One of my most loved magical realists since my
teenage days, I borrowed his unique and enchanting idea of the
labyrinth to create my master’s level graduate work.  And in my
later life he inspired me to write poetry for which I now have a
book’s worth, not nearly as wonderful as what emerged from
Borges’ mind, but to something I strive to just come near.  So I
could not be more delighted.  He was the only literary actor who
understood the implications of George Berkeley’s, Bishop Berkeley,
philosophy, which promoted the idea that concrete reality is only a
matter of mental perceptions and that what one imagines is the real
world is in reality only one possibility in an infinite series of realities. 
A very post-modern idea and contemporary with some theories of
quantum physics.  Who else but a mind like Borges’ could see the
futurity of Berkeley?

TD’s salvation for me is there are at least a couple of minds like
Anarcissie’s, regardless of the sarcasm, who can always be counted
on to bring to the forums those who have had the best thoughts in
history to give colorful figuration to her points.  Ernesto Sábato once
said of Borges,  “From Borges’s fear of the bitter reality of existence
spring two simultaneous and complementary attitudes: to play games
in an invented world, and to adhere to a Platonic theory, an intellectual
theory par excellence.”  He might be pleasantly amused to see the
games played here on TD on a miniscule scale, besides the larger
games played by the leaders of the world.  Holding to the highest
degree Plato’s quest for excellence, however, Borges might be
dismayed at the pettiness of mind that inhibits even the merest
idea of excellence, or arête as it is called in the Greek.  Many
humans today would agree that existence indeed is a bitter
experience.

If you were not referring to me, that is all right too, having a nice small
library of his works, at this more “mature” age I still identify with
Borges to a large degree. And it was nice to have Borges’ character
brought up this morning on the mostly vacant-minded inhabitants of
Truthdig.

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By Anarcissie, September 23, 2010 at 5:47 am Link to this comment

Jorge Luis Borges once went to a class where his work was discussed.  Students read essays about it work and discussed his ideas.  At the end of the class, Borges stood up and said, ‘I want to thank you for this discussion.  There is so much in my work which I had no idea it contained!’

Note that that can be interpreted in more than one way.

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By Shenonymous, September 22, 2010 at 6:18 pm Link to this comment

ITW – you appear somewhat shortsighted sometimes, which seems
just as often to give rise to your parched comments.  I didn’t say
that Occam’s Razor justified reductionism.  I said that William of
Ockham, a Franciscan monk had a reductionist, or minimalist,
philosophy.  It was the way he lived.  Sparsely.  He was known for
it.  You might do well if you read his biography.  I suggest you
read more carefully… and reflective.

What’s with the misreading comments?  It might be an infection.  You
and Anarcissie see things in my comments that are not there.  But
others give the impression of being afflicted also. 

So don’t smoke a Cuban cigar.  But all cigars are not alike.

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By archivesDave, September 22, 2010 at 6:07 pm Link to this comment

ITW:
“Even if it’s a Cuban cigar I’m not going to smoke it.”

Aw c’mon, Monica hasn’t been visiting down there has
she?

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By Inherit The Wind, September 22, 2010 at 5:31 pm Link to this comment

I don’t see how Occam’s Razor justifies reductionism.

I don’t mind being called a spoiler—one of the nicer things I’ve been called at TD.

Even if it’s a Cuban cigar I’m not going to smoke it.

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By Shenonymous, September 22, 2010 at 9:06 am Link to this comment

Anarcissie – yes one may want to do those very things.  I didn’t say
I subscribed to Ockham’s idea of the nonessentiality of universals. 
I do like his idea of cutting through the crap, though.  I often call
it ‘water insists on seeking its own level in as quickly a route as
possible’ and ‘Gravity Is My Enemy.’  So I’ve also added my own
versions of the shortest distance between two points. 

But a little more on the subject:  It would appear that universals are
logically necessary, else they would not exist conceptually in the first
place. It also seems to me that every concept has some element of
universality to it if it is to be understood by the many users (thinkers) of
any idea. For what is a universal?  As a word, it is applied to general or
abstract objects such as concepts, qualities, relations, and numbers, as
opposed to particular objects.  So we have to come to terms with what
those definitives mean.  Realizing at least one of my shortcomings, I
think everyone here is capable of finding what those terms mean on
their own as it would take too much more space in my usually
loquacious nature for me to do it for you.  I’m afraid that the impulse to
educate might have to be beaten out of me with a kyosaku. There are
plenty of sources for defining ideas on the Internet without having to
specify any particular resource.

I am willing to go a little distance though.  Extreme realists, after Plato,
maintained that universals exist independently of both the human mind
and particular things.  However, in nominalism universals are
unreasoned or groundless constructions of the human mind and is a
metaphysical view in philosophy according to which general or abstract
terms and predicates or action qualifiers exist but that either universals
or abstract objects, which are sometimes thought to correspond to
these terms, do not exist.  Of the two main versions of nominalism, one
denies the existence of universals—things that can be exemplified by
many particular things such as power or the notion of humanity.

The other version denies the existence of abstract objects altogether—
objects do not exist in space and time, but exist as a mental
constructions (conceptually) that may be devised thorough experience
of the world, which by the way is a three-dimensional world, but then
world itself is a concept, so we inherit a paradoxical that affects any
definition.  Or as Chomsky theorizes certain cognitive (mental
awarenesses) structures are inborn, innate, such as grammatical rules. 
A sentence makes sense because of the way it is constructed with the
operant words of the vocabulary of any language.

However, these two versions of nominalism fuse into one if one believes
that all universals are abstract objects. If you require a detailed
discussion of nominalism or any other idea expressed here, they can be
found in encyclopedias especially philosophy encyclopedias or any basic
intro to philosophy book.

Then in conceptualism universals exist only in the mind, as concepts,
but they are not capricious, and reflect similarities among particular
things.  This is what Wittgenstein noticed.  While I subscribe more to
the conceptualist view, I would hold that somehow that conceptions
exist objectively as concepts otherwise one could not discuss with
others whatever meaning they obtain. I do believe in Other as well as
Self.  The definition of concept is noted above.

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By Anarcissie, September 22, 2010 at 7:54 am Link to this comment

One may want universals to explain the weird correspondence between mathematics and the physical world, or the persistent intuition of mathematicians that they are discovering things which already exist, rather than creating things that didn’t exist before.

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By Shenonymous, September 21, 2010 at 10:29 pm Link to this comment

Unless it is a Cuban cigar.  Since a thing has to be pushed to its
absolute limit for some Truthdippers, a closer look at Laocoon:
One Greek God, Poseidon, and two incarnations of Athena (Minerva
is her Roman name) are reported to have arranged the execution
of Laocoon who was a priest of Poseidon.  Hyginus writes that
Poseidon was upset because Laocoon married and had two sons. 
Then Servius, a late 4th century grammarian, wrote commentaries
on Poseidon’s anger with Laocoon because he made love to his
own wife in front of a cult image in a temple.  Sheesh!  However,
Quintus Smymrna, in his Trojan Epic After Homer, gives to
Athena the role of the angry Goddess because of Laocoon’s warning
his compatriot Trojans about the wooden horse blinds him and sends
the sea serpents.  Athena had helped Epeius build the wooden horse,
so she was madder than hell and just was not going to take it!  Then
Virgil in the Aeneid describes Minerva (Athena) who favored the Greeks
(Achaeans) as being very upset, as she was having her period. My
reference was obviously not exactly about Laocoon, the character, nor
the finer philology of the myth.  I used it as a simile for the human
spirit that is made to succumb to powerful forces beyond any man’s
control.  But ITW, you can be a spoiler if you like.

Not exactly sure where you got your definition.  Being true to its
essence, ‘simply put’ the idea, “Pluralitas non est ponenda sine
neccesitate” or “plurality should not be posited without necessity,” was
often said by the minimalist Franciscan monk, William of Ockham.
Though he did not originate the expression, but because he used the
principle so often it is attributed, incorrectly, to him: the principle of
unnecessary plurality, called Occam’s Razor.  If you want to expand on
it and paraphrase it, that it is your prerogative.  The way the idea has
been used historically has been various and profuse and each one could
be said to be a formal statement of meaning.  Now we have yours.

FYI:  Ockham held an interesting reductionist or no frills philosophy.
He argued that universals have no existence outside of the mind;
universals are merely names used to refer to groups of individuals and
the properties of individuals.  This is opposed to Realists who claim that
not only are there individual objects and our concepts of those objects,
there are also universals. Ockham thought that this was one too many
pluralities. We don’t need universals to explain anything.

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By quidditas, September 21, 2010 at 6:38 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

You’re still cloaking the effective NEOCON fascism in the phantasmagorical spectre of a “Christian” fascism that doesn’t actually exist.

It’s good that you’re finally focusing on the organized corporatocracy in lieu of the tea potter rabble, but you ought to tell the WHOLE truth—not half a truth.

I know it’s hard when you wrote your last book on the phantasm—which must mean you really believe this tripe—even as the highly organized neocons conducted their fascist coup, but better late than never.

If the NEOCONS put up Sarah Palin in 2012, does that make their War in Iran “Christian fascism”? In 2010, is Obama’s War in Iraq “Black fascism”? “Progressive fascism”?

Fix it. Now.

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By Night-Gaunt, September 21, 2010 at 10:26 am Link to this comment

I’m sorry you, Shenonymous, have such a low opinion of what I say in this with Nemesis2010. If you bothered to read any of it there is history and about the same thing the essence of what your last missive here was saying. Large forces squeezing us into a place worse than oblivion. Eternal servitude. Not some “manly” posturing by me. (It has run its course I see no where else to go with it.) If we don’t break free of it now it will be infinitely harder to do so later when they have won fully. Can we do it? Will the forces of evil win? Evil to the human spirit of Life, Liberty and happiness, that is.

Excellent Democracy Now today. Pakistan, our gov’t, how it is carrying on in continuation of previous admins, protecting themselves (and the elites) while diverting flood waters elswhere. The horrors of Pakistan and 24 million people in dire trouble.

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By Inherit The Wind, September 21, 2010 at 7:22 am Link to this comment

EL: I remember that vid of “Revolution” AND “Hey,Jude” on the Smothers Brothers!

She, Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Laocoön wanted to warn the Trojans that the Horse was a trap and Poseidon, who wanted Troy destroyed sent the serpents to kill him.  More about the dangers of getting in the way of unstoppable forces than anything else.  Or, simply, just a good story (BTW, it is NOT in the Illiad—that ends with the funeral of Hector. It MAY be alluded to in the Odyssey, but I’m not sure—there are a lot of references to previous events there.  It’s more likely from one of the plays like “The Trojan Women” or from the Aeneid.  Not sure and too lazy to look today.)

Occam’s Razor is NOT just about taking the simplest way.  It is much more sophisticated than that.  It says the simplest way that ADDRESSES all the issues is the way.  If it doesn’t do that it’s just a cop-out and the Razor is NOT about copping out, it’s about removing irrelevant complications.

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By Shenonymous, September 21, 2010 at 5:41 am Link to this comment

While TD commenters go at each others throats over politics we
watch the carnage of verbal combat in this forum and a few others
in awe at a pathetic waste of energy.  Namely nemesis2010 and
Night-Gaunt. I suppose some information is seeping out. It seems
to me they are spinning in place not getting anywhere except to
demonstrate their manly bravado, each clinging for dear life to
whatever principles are driving their minds by whatever ideology
they have chosen.

Politically and economically the rest of us are up that well known creek
and are dazed at the forces that seem to just shove us along as if we
were mere particles of dust. 

THERE must be an antidote to political private capitalism and corporate
power that devours the individuals of a society, this society, and the
kind of socialism that takes away individual dignity by absorbing them
into an amorphous lifeless mass.

There ARE a couple of things we can do.  We can just let things ride. 
That is the easiest and taking Occam’s Razor, meaning choosing the
simplest route. By the looks of it, the country is coming out of the
doldrums of financial crises.  The shot of adrenalin the financial market
got on Monday was historically unprecedented. This can give a fake
sense of security allaying any further action on our part.  And take up
life where it was before the 2008 Crash.  But we must beware of Greeks
bearing gifts.

There is a famous ancient sculpture called the LAOCOON that
represents a priest and his two sons in the death grasp of two
enormous serpents. You see, this old guy dared to defy the divine,
dared to break their rules of oppression. And who showed the skill and
tenacity, and we see in the sculpture how this old man with his boys
struggle against the two huge compressing snakes only to lose their
lives regarded as one of the noblest artistic illustrations of the mastery
of human intelligence over brute inertia.  I would think it shows defeat
against a sea of troubles.  But in looking at this sculpture one sees the
sinewy strength of the old man and who can fault him in the face of the
divine power that no mere human can prevail?  This is a perfect picture
of humanity in the fact of political corporate power, the leviathan of
today. 

SO another way to negotiate the vagaries of life is to actively withdraw
from society and give up being part of a democracy altogether, defiantly
refuse to vote as a democratic member of society with the thought that
it is useless and futile, take on an anarchic attitude which in reality
merely sweeps life under the proverbial rug in a sort of rugged
romanticism creating a mirage that others are not needed nor do they
count just as the all powerful, omnipotent corporate world views and
abases society in general. 

DOES the sculpture say there is no hope?  Like Laocoon we cannot win? 
OR does it say regardless of the threat of death, we must find the will to
resist, you and I must engage the monsters that attempt to devour our
and our progenies’ lives?  But how does one do that without committing
suicide?  For surely that is not the teleology is it?  That is not our goal? 
Why struggle at all if that is the prize?  To be born then die on the
vine?

We can be determined to forge our own lives and be self-propelled to
actively form with others a healthy and cohesive society?  This is the
idea of community that I hope to develop in continued posts. If you are
bored, please you are invited to just move on with your eyes glazes
over. 

To be self-determined, you have to take steps to change the rat-pit and
fiercely wrestle with the real condescending demons of power by
insidiously taking their power and transforming it into our own. 

This sounds preachy but we are on the edge of taking charge of our
own destiny and how that is carved to begin with will save a lot of
strife later if it is done with great forethought.  Gotto go now, work
calls, but you know I’ll be back.

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By elisalouisa, September 20, 2010 at 7:12 pm Link to this comment

I’ll second that ITW.  The Beatles did “Revolution"on the Smothers Brothers program. Don’t have that video but do have this one. See link below.
Does anyone remember where they were when they heard that John Lennon has been shot? I was doing volunteer work at a peace center and a hitchhiker walked in and told me that John Lennon had been shot, he had just heard it on his portable radio. He thought we might like to know. One of those moments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zck8EYdkTw0&feature=related

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By Inherit The Wind, September 20, 2010 at 5:47 pm Link to this comment

Gawd! Hee-Haw!  Nice to know it’s still as stupid now as it was way back when!  Something comforting in that!

Sorry, but I was a Smother Brothers kid!  I remember when they blanked Joan Baez and cut Pete Seeger completely…

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By Leefeller, September 20, 2010 at 4:16 pm Link to this comment

BR549,..... cool!

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By BR549, September 20, 2010 at 1:47 pm Link to this comment

Lee,
I confess, I’m guilty. That was my favorite show; well, maybe that and the old
Muppet Show ....... and Carol Burnett.

BR :o)

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By Leefeller, September 20, 2010 at 11:59 am Link to this comment

A little humor! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeDX6ESys10

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By Shenonymous, September 20, 2010 at 3:47 am Link to this comment

Perhaps, archivesDave, you have to be an unbeliever to understand? 
How about the pity of the entire Abrahamic legacy?  That would be
the full extent but I said it with tongue in cheek, I thought that was
obvious.  Sorry.  I think BR549 got the idea.  So maybe I was not as
obtuse as you are making me out to be?  Havana nice day.

More later this evening about social capital and socialized capitalism.
Have to go for now.

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By archivesDave, September 20, 2010 at 12:39 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous:

“And what Abraham did to Moses was not very nice either.”

Still didn’t find anything about this in the references that u gave….what am I missing Shen?

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By Shenonymous, September 19, 2010 at 10:59 pm Link to this comment

BR549, what you said about Ishmael and Isaac seems plausible in
terms of a morality paradigm.  Do people really ever listen, for very
long, to the lessons of history or our mythologies?  We change the
story to suit our needs, no?

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By Shenonymous, September 19, 2010 at 10:51 pm Link to this comment

Yup that is true archivesDave, the religion was that old by the time
old Moses got around to taking that vacation.  I never said they
were contemporaries.  But then what’s a few hundred years for a
good story?  The story appears at Luke 9:28 as well as in Matthew
17:1, and Mark 9:2. Wonder how John missed it being that it is one
of the pivotal events of the religion.

We digress but we have some fun.

But what do you make of Moses and Elijah being there and what do
you suppose they were talking about with Jesus for surely if the
scripture says they were talking they must have been talking about
something?  If used as metaphors, or personifications, then Moses
must have represented the law and Elijah the prophet, the soothsayer
of the future.  Since it is not reported what they talked about and only
interpretations abound, what say you?

Of course a lot depends on whether literally they were all real events? 
Are you a believer?  Moses was a rather larger than life character,
maybe not the founder (patriarch) of the religion as Abraham was,
but he was the founder of the Israeli nation who enabled the Hebrews,
direct descendents of Isaac’s son Jacob (Israel), to escape from Egypt. 
Maybe Moses was a demi-god?  These kinds of cultural heroes seem to
show up whenever there is a situation of hostility in the culture stream. 
Creating mythic founder-leaders provides the requisite comfort and
sense of safety to relieve pandemonium and instability of major
maelstrom such as moving an entire nation, thereby providing unity for
diverse groups.  Isn’t that what Jesus’s transfiguration (alleged) does for
the group (Peter, James, and John) who accompanied him to the
mountain top?  Abraham supposedly lived 175 years, and Moses 120. 
BTW:  Moses is identified with Thoth, or Hermes in the Greek or
sometimes with the teacher of Orpheus.  The Jews, Christians, and
Islamists have different views of Moses. Right?  Abraham is said to have
been born about 1813 BC and was the 20th generation from Adam and
dies in 1638 BC.  Moses life began in 1393 BC and dies 1272 BC and so
it goes.

You might read, “What Did the Biblical Writers Know and When Did They
Know It” by William G Dever

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By archivesDave, September 19, 2010 at 9:18 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous:

“And what Abraham did to Moses was not very nice either.  But then Moses had a soggy mind and just wanted a change of scenery.”

Shen, I thought I knew a lot about the O.T. but this
really bamboozles me.
Moses, as I recall, lived around 400 yrs after Abraham and also appeared at the ‘trasfiguation’ with Elijah, Jesus, Peter and John. (Mark 9 and Matt 17)

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By BR549, September 19, 2010 at 3:42 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

Ah, Abraham, my favorite Soap Opera. That whole account covers virtually
every human weakness and dysfunctional behavior that any writer of the
tragedies could have imagined.

Personally, I think the whole issue around Ishmael and Isaac was meant to
illustrate how the hidden side of ourselves that is often represented in our
siblings, and as a person matures, they (hopefully) learn to realize just who their
family really is and why their actions always seem to push buttons. It’s a healing process, if we ever get out of our own way enough to figure it out.

So, here we are, some 3700 years later, and the inhabitants of that house are
still at each others throats, so consumed in their own versions of reality that
there is no room for any kind of forgiveness or understanding.

I’m not a religious person, by any stretch, but this parable seems to have been
a test passed down through time and wiser members of the religious
community from God ...... and after all this time, no one has been listening.

All those spitball throwers at the back of the spirituality class, Israel in
particular, get a big fat “F”, and the Palestinians maybe get a “C” or a “D” and
have to do remedial classes. There are, of course, citizens on both sides that do
“get it” and I’m not referring to them, but the policy makers all need to go to
the principle’s office and, boy, is he pissed.

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By Night-Gaunt, September 19, 2010 at 2:19 pm Link to this comment

Good thing that in Heaven & Hell, would there be a Purgatory(?), in indestructible immortal (new) bodies and being that such places work outside of the Natural world, then you can sit on your butt for eternity and not be bored or go numb! Same with the virgins, always virginal and never get pregnant. Wins for the guys, as usual, the women get the shiv and no thanks.

Its interesting that the Assassins would use that ploy to recruit fighters who would die for their cause after getting to experience a taste of what they could look forward too. Used the hashish to put each recruit in a beautiful place of luxury and plants, plenty of water and beautiful women. Soon after they are knocked out again and return to see the leader. Now they are ready to do anything to reach that paradise forever. Shrewd. The Assassins were successful for some 200 years until the Mongol invasion if Persia in the middle 1500’s. They gave us the words assassin and hashish.

These days people seem more easily fooled with the promise. Or the techniques to convert them are far more effective. That and desperate people who have had their loved ones killed by foreigners in their country. [That can make the most unassuming person into a vindictive killer, one out for revenge.]

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By Shenonymous, September 19, 2010 at 9:49 am Link to this comment

Personally I think Abraham was crackers, not too much of a slacker
since he was willing to put a knife to his son!  The son of a ______
(substitute a female dog for the blank). I mean is that why he earned
a permanent seat for eternity in heaven, uh I don’t think he sat the
the right hand or left hand of god, since those seats were already
taken, but does he ever get to move around? 

Oh my gawd, I cannot imagine an eternity stuck in one seat.  I can
hardly sit at the f’n computer for more than a half an hour!  I mean
what is so great about eternity in heaven anyway?  I mean what exactly
could it be like?  Doesn’t anybody else ever wonder?

For the Muslim men having 72 virgins and f’n for eternity now is that
something a guy can really do?  Without Viagra, and is there Viagra in
Muslim Heaven?  I mean even Muslim men can be impotent.  And do
these virgins get pregnant?  I mean wouldn’t Muslim Heaven become
overpopulated with people that didn’t go through the fires of hell on
earth?  Imagine all those divine diapers. 

Well, this iconoclast thinks having an unending supply of unsalted dry
roasted peanuts mixed with dried cranberries as definitely a worthy
eternal reward for being a moral and obedient slave, don’t you? 

And what Abraham did to Moses was not very nice either.  But then
Moses had a soggy mind and just wanted a change of scenery (like a
vacation from the Pharoah who was in charge (a childhood friend,
remember) Beware of childhood friends who can really beat the sh—,
uh crap out of you.  So Moses got to roam the desert for the rest of his
life and was not welcome in the land promised to the Jews, so there you
go, Moses!  Kill a man and live in the desert for eternity.  Does anyone
know if Moses ever died? Do you think he ever got to the Judaic
heaven?  Or is he still burning in hell, the price of leading the children
to Israel!  Are there two different hells?  A Hebrew one and a Muslim
one?  Mamma mia!  Shall we have a good day after all of this?  I’ll tell
you one thing, I have a stash of dry roasted unsalted peanuts and a bag
of dried cranberries.

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By Leefeller, September 19, 2010 at 9:29 am Link to this comment

She,

I am going to ask the Great Unyun about this Abraham guy, he sounds like a slacker to me!

Yes George Carlin makes more sense in 5 minutes of his dialog then all the kings men and horses on all the MSM put together.  ....“They do not care”  as Carlin states so succinctly! 

Dave, thanks for the Link, I defer my George Carlin quotes to your apparent great choice of selections!

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By archivesDave, September 19, 2010 at 8:04 am Link to this comment

And one more succinct little classic of George Carlin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO0-u900OG4&feature=related

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By archivesDave, September 19, 2010 at 7:57 am Link to this comment

Shen:
Thanx a lot for the Sunday School lesson…
Well Done.
In memory and honor of George Carlin, here is my contribution…..  He’s never been better:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JChUO4TLjnY

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By Big M, September 19, 2010 at 6:47 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“Do not pity Barack Obama and the Democratic Party. They will get what they deserve.”

What is that? To be merely unemployed? So that they can become lobbyists?

It’s simply fucking amazing to me that no matter what these criminals do, once their term(s) is/are up, they just walk away. No death, no prosecution, no nothing.

A nation that would allow these criminals to live, and walk around freely and filthy rich, WILL GET WHAT IT DESERVES!

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By Shenonymous, September 19, 2010 at 6:35 am Link to this comment

I am sooo glad the bickering betwixt NG and archivesDave is over. 
It was reminding me too much of the kind of petty bickering I get
into sometimes.  And which I have sworn off after having a non-
alcoholic beer!  A few times. Well I will certainly try to stay away
from that kind of sandbox fun anyway.  It usually winds up like
kitty litter poop box fun.  I think ITW can recall that location as
well.  And Leefeller.  Besides NG and aD are a lot smarter, didn’t
really call each other names, which took it up a notch.  Friendly
conflict is entertaining to a point until it turns to spinning wheels,
which it always turns into.  Yes and George Carlin is the god of the day. 

I think for the fun of it each of us ought to post a quote from Carlin. 
There’s got to be a website of Carlin quotes.  Mannnnn, if you just
google Carlin quotes would you believe there are 16,600,000
results?!!!!  So with 16 million 600 thousand quotes that definitely puts
Carlin into the divine zone.  Right?  This one seems to fit our dueling
dippers: “Don’t sweat the petty things and don’t pet the sweaty things.”

As another little diversion from my socialized capitalism project which
is now tabled for a little later today (I tend to procrastinate the hard
stuff, but I’m getting there), and as a natural phenomenon, digressions
do happen.  Hey, that’s a new bumper sticker!  Digressions Do Happen! 
This digression will be about our Lazari.  Those two dudes in the NT.
And yes, we did get them confused.  Aging will do that to you.

Indeed there are two Lazari (pronounced Lazar-eye meaning more than
one) noted in the NT.  I too have read the Bible, diligently (studied
when young and a Catholic and a Baptist, not at the same time, but
that could have been interesting).  Let’s see there was Lazarus of the
parable, (Luke 16:19-31) so he wasn’t really real but was a person in
a morality story about a rich man and a beggar and the connection
between life and death and the evil result of the neglect of others. The
name means “God is my help.”  And when he died, a natural death, he
was escorted to heaven by angels, uh…to Abraham’s side (why not
God’s is a question? And another one is does Abraham just sit there
for eternity?  Something to look forward to?  Is that what heaven is like,
just sitting there?).  The rich man suffers to this day in Hell!  The story
gets a bit messy when rich man petitions to have the poor Lazarus warn
his family of the horror of being nasty to poor people.  God won’t have
it.  When you are cast in the fires of hell, mannn you jes stays there. 
Now the other Lazarus of Bethany (John 11:41-44) is the one who was
raised from the dead, like four days after he’d been laying stone cold.
This Lazarus is only mentioned once more where he and Jesus attend a
supper and the chief priests mull over putting Lazarus to death (again)
because people are becoming believers in Jesus. But they don’t and
Lazarus apparently has a full life.  Different Christian sects treat the
rest of Lazarus’s life differently and it is very strange.  The confusion
comes when the two Lazari were fused or merged together by the
Catholics seen in many of their church decorations.  But in the parable it
said at the end by god about repentence that those will not be
“convinced even if someone is witnessed as rising from the dead” so
there you go, the setting up of the real Lazarus’s resurrection which in
turn sets up Jesus’s resurrection.  All very neatly done. No?  A good
Sunday morning to you all.

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By elisalouisa, September 19, 2010 at 6:15 am Link to this comment

Continuing in the spirit of truedigger3 September 18 4:52 pm praising an “excellent informative post,” my vote goes to Night-Gaunt September 18 at 8:48 pm and Shenonymous September 18 at 7:57 pm., tied in this category.  As Shen puts it: “What is happening to humans who are on the brink of being extensions of computers instead of computers being extensions of them?” What indeed are computer and other electronic dependence doing to our mental and physical well-being?  Night-Gaunt: “Electronic game play is the new drug of choice.” Could certain forums also be a drug of choice? Yes the media is what the message is carried on but such conveyors take on a spirit of their own.  As to our identities being compromised, that thought in itself is disquieting as the intentions of those who possess such knowledge is not known. Where is all this leading us? Quoting Shen, “entire societies changing like great flocks taking great directional changes in synchronized flying formations.” More than one such flock is waiting in the wings,grin thus you have these forums discussing the possibility of what is to be.

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By archivesDave, September 19, 2010 at 2:14 am Link to this comment

Salbuchi: Problem…Reaction….Solution

New clip out by Argentine Adrian Salbuchi on coming hyperinflation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKUHalE64vo

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By archivesDave, September 19, 2010 at 12:30 am Link to this comment

OK, Leefeller, I’m willin’ to let sleeping saints lie…  (Take it however u want…heh heh)...

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By Leefeller, September 18, 2010 at 11:56 pm Link to this comment

Shester,

Night Gaunt and Archives Dave are bothering meee .............they keep poking me with this Lazarus shtick! ........ Night Gaunt started it!

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By archivesDave, September 18, 2010 at 10:47 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous:
“Uh…Lazarus was raised after having crossed the threshold between life and death by the calling forth from the state of death by an alleged
incarnation of God so I don’t think he would have had to wait to go to any heaven but he was raised from his Final Slumber albeit temporarily as I think he eventually died as all mortals do.  But, logically thinking, if Lazarus was raised from the dead by the Son of God, then he would have been touched by God’s hand and should have become the first immortal human given the omnipotent power of God?  At least that is how it ought to have been given the divine touch must have had some meaning, No?  Also sounds like Enoch’s live transportation directly to the heaven of the Hebrews is very similar to Hercules ascending to Olympus to reside for eternity with the Olympians.  Hmmm…I wonder if
there is any relationship?

But please, can either Night-Gaunt or archivesDave tell what is the purpose of their argument of which religion is the worse in its treatment of humans?  To what length or infinitesimal degree of
difference are you two willing to go to prove your particular view is the correct one?  Just curious.”


First Off N_G, Shenonymous, et al, I want to apologize for taking this down a ‘false flag rabbit hole’...
It really doesn’t matter what the Koran says about
slaves and masters. (I was displaying my prejudice.)

It is interesting to try to take what Christ said about servants and slaves in context as much as possible and see it thru His eyes however impossible that is.
I’m certainly no Bible scholar but have read the NT a lot more times than the OT. 
Christ did have much to say about servants and slaves, one example being in the Gospel of John 15:15 “I’m no longer calling you servants because servants don’t understand what their master is thinking and planning. No, I’ve named you friends because I’ve let you in on everything I’ve heard from the Father.”
All of us, including myself, tend to take what others have taught and written about Christ as gospel when we need to read it first hand ourselves.

Shen: I think you have your Lazaruses mixed up here.  There were two distinct ones referred to and I’m a little surprised no one else picked up on this.

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By I think it's too late, September 18, 2010 at 10:32 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I think Hedges is right, but I think it’s already too late to stop the corporations.  We’ve been living in a very nightmarish PROTOFASCIST environment every since BP got away with using COREXIT in the Gulf and the negro puppet just gaffed it off as something his puppet ass couldn’t control without him suffering a ‘jfk moment’ and a significantly lighter head.

so, my assessment is that if the U.S. doesn’t do what France did for eight long years when it rebelled, that is, OFF THE OLIGARCHY WHO RULED IT, then it’s over with here.

and sadly, it very well looks like it is over with.

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By Night-Gaunt, September 18, 2010 at 4:48 pm Link to this comment

It started with BR549 then switched to archives dave and went on from there. I made my point and see no reason to continue in that vein.

To me the media is what the message is carried upon. Now the media can manipulate the message, twist it into something it isn’t really on a large level or a small one. Check out Fairness & Accuracy in Reporting for plenty of examples where it is done on the major information feeds every day here in the USA. Such fictions are continued over decades and are continuing to be supported by them. http://www.fair.org/

Electronic game play is the new drug of choice. It takes up large amounts of time blocks. One of my brother’s two sons are so addicted to their hand units that they demand a limit to their attentions to such devices. I have purposefully stayed away from video games because I see the potential. (It has been hashed out in various SciFi-Cyber Punk novels too.) I have my addictions as everyone does, it is just some of mine I can use in the real world. Some of the reaction times and behaviors of some of the military video games does benefit our military—-and others too eventually if they allow video games and other electronic devices in their societies. Direct interface is probably coming soon.

My “alias” is just a name to give a little anonymity. Anyone with the wherewithal and equipment can find out my identity. The phone company and any of the companies like Google can and have given information eagerly to the NSA who monitors everything, or nearly so. Otherwise I tend to not hide anything on these forums. I have already given enough to lead someone to my state and city. My name I use isn’t a new personality. You would find me personally to be rather close to it.

Others may actually want another persona over their own and use role playing games etc to do it. This great change could be stopped dead in its tracks of an EMP from space or some calamity that could disrupt our power grid would nip it in the bud. Civil war, food shortages, water, lack of electricity could all play into it. Without electricity to feed it from mostly oil and coal, it would be untouchable. Our logistical trains for that oil are long and fragile. War with Iran could do us in or make our gov’t collapse or clamp down on us like a dictatorship very easily. We as a species are in a weak and brittle condition. GCC is one of those factors working against us and little is being done to prepare for it as the effects become acute and to minimize its effects down the line.

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By Shenonymous, September 18, 2010 at 3:57 pm Link to this comment

Way beyond political consequences.  It is inarguable that the
electronic media available today with its many-to-many (millions
to millions actually) message interaction is having new and strange
effects, but in addition the speed with which the messages are
delivered, many simultaneously, with little or no time to check out
the truth of the content, is redefining the thinking patterns of
humans who have that access.  And it is not only a matter of sitting
at a computer station at home or elsewhere, but during every mode
of travel there is with such devices as Bluetooth, Blackberries, iPhones,
etc., in cars, trains, planes, walking anywhere, working anywhere and
playing anywhere, just everywhere, even in the tub, texting or viewing
and interacting on blogs, twitters, facebooks, emails, getting the latest
news flashes, or world-wide ‘Net wargaming.  This is all affecting how
humans think and then react.  It also conditions them to always be on
the ready for information and priming them to be consumers rather
than producers. 

Seems like McLuhan had a hunch of this possibility that has become a
reality.  Space and time become so nearly compressed that the sense
of time is changing from ordinary clock time to instaneousity and space
is losing some of its meaning for what kind of space is intuited from
living on the Internet for tens of hours at a time?

My body speaks and tells me to resist spending copious amounts of
time at living on the ‘Net.  I get physically ill sitting more than a half
an hour.  So I take long breaks to live a real non-electronic life. Thank
goodness I am employed!  I too however get caught up if more than
one article intrigues me, and I have to simply push away just like dieters
have to push their plates away before stuffing themselves.  And I am
often startled to see how many TDers are on so many forums that they
seem bound and umbilicaled to their computers.  I think I’ve even made
mention from time to time of this perception I have whether or not it is
true of any particular individual.  There is no way to know. 

Most of us for one reason or another use aliases and so we do not
have real identities.  Some have several identities and personally I don’t
know how they can keep up with their various avatars, except to say
it is a sign of the times.  It is kind of freaky to my mind.  Socially
acceptable multiple personalities.  Doing that exclusively with one’s
time is bound to cast a pall of unreality on interactions regardless of
the loftiness discussions might have. 

Entire societies are changing like great flocks taking great directional
changes in synchronized flying formations. It is a phenomenon to
behold and become awestruck that we are living in the midst of a
great historical change which defies the old adage that people are
never aware of their own historical import.  Some psychologists and
sociologists ought to be having a field day putting together theories
about what is happening to humans who are on the brink of being
extensions of computers instead of computers being extensions of
them!

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By Anarcissie, September 18, 2010 at 2:58 pm Link to this comment

What I was thinking of in this case was probably not what McLuhan had in mind back in the day.  I was thinking that most of the advanced industrial media—telegraph, telephone, radio, television, film, books, newspapers and so forth are either one to one or one (or few) to many.  That is, one or a few decide what is to be spoken of; many listen.  People struggle for power over the microphone. However, the Internet, like the village agora, is many-to-many, although it’s much bigger than any village.  This is a radical change in the nature of the selection of media available, and it has profoundly affected the sort of content ‘consumed’—YouTube versus TV programs, for instance.  That’s one part of the message.  These differences are already having important political consequences—the other part of the message.

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By Alena Rose, September 18, 2010 at 2:00 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

All this intellectualizing makes my head hurt.

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By truedigger3, September 18, 2010 at 12:52 pm Link to this comment

Re: By Night-Gaunt, September 18 at 3:05 pm

Excellent informative post. Thank you N-G.

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By Shenonymous, September 18, 2010 at 12:16 pm Link to this comment

McLuhan famously, or infamously since it has become such an
overused classic quote, the form of a medium embeds itself in the
message, creating a symbiotic relationship by which the medium
influences how the message is perceived.  I vividly remember him
saying that as I just passed into my twenties and puzzled over what
it could mean, but in retrospect, I understand it very well now.

In his theory, a medium itself, not the content it carries, should be,
more importantly, the focus of study. He said that a medium affects
the society in which it plays a role not only by the content delivered
over the medium, but also by the characteristics of the medium itself.

Since he coined it in 1967, it seems he was of the generation that also
engendered minds like Boorstin. The Medium is the Massage while a
misprint, it seems serendipity did him the favor of giving him one of
the most remembered historical quotes, and could it not be said that
the mind is intentionally massaged by the media?  In his earlier book,
Understanding Media, he claimed that all media have characteristics
that engage the viewer in different ways; for instance, a passage in a
book could be reread at will, but a movie had to be screened again in
its entirety to study any individual part of it. So the medium through
which a person encounters a particular piece of content would have an
effect on the individual’s understanding of it.  I suppose the temporal
element had an effect in understanding.  In this sense his insights
dovetail the ones Sirota, Boorstin, and Eco echo!  Heehee (that was a
funny homonymnal, please forgive my self-iindulgent satisfaction). 

However, with taping movies these days and videos, rerunning
passages on DVDs it is just as easy to review exerpts as rereading a
book, so his argument is outdated to some degree.  As typical of
postmodernistic repetitious incantation, it seems like the incessant
repetition of what is presented on TV does affect the psyche as it is said
that hearing a thing often enough, even if it is a blatant lie, is highly
likely to be perceived as truth.  Therefore, content gets blended with
the media in a strange configuration to conspire to present a false
appearance of the world. 

So I submit that a new hybrid beast of media and message has been
given birth with the advent of electronic media.  The edges between
them have been smudged.  It needs a name!

Uh…Lazarus was raised after having crossed the threshold between life
and death by the calling forth from the state of death by an alleged
incarnation of God so I don’t think he would have had to wait to go to
any heaven but he was raised from his Final Slumber albeit temporarily
as I think he eventually died as all mortals do.  But, logically thinking, if
Lazarus was raised from the dead by the Son of God, then he would
have been touched by God’s hand and should have become the first
immortal human given the omnipotent power of God?  At least that is
how it ought to have been given the divine touch must have had some
meaning, No?  Also sounds like Enoch’s live transportation directly to
the heaven of the Hebrews is very similar to Hercules ascending to
Olympus to reside for eternity with the Olympians.  Hmmm…I wonder if
there is any relationship?

But please, can either Night-Gaunt or archivesDave tell what is the
purpose of their argument of which religion is the worse in its
treatment of humans?  To what length or infinitesimal degree of
difference are you two willing to go to prove your particular view is the
correct one?  Just curious.

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By Night-Gaunt, September 18, 2010 at 11:05 am Link to this comment

http://www.evilbible.com/Slavery.htm

Some examples you were looking for archivesDave and it is very direct;

What does the Bible say about beating slaves?  It says you can beat both male and female slaves with a rod so hard that as long as they don’t die right away you are cleared of any wrong doing.


  When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished.  If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.  (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

  You would think that Jesus and the New Testament would have a different view of slavery, but slavery is still approved of in the New Testament, as the following passages show.

  Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear.  Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.  (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

  Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed.  If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful.  You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts.  Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them.  (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

  In the following parable, Jesus clearly approves of beating slaves even if they didn’t know they were doing anything wrong.

  The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it.  “But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly.  Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given.”  (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

I am as yet unable to find the passage where their slaves will serve their masters in heaven for eternity directly. But when I do I will show you. Nothing I have here precludes that possibility though. Does being a Christian sound as bad as being a Muslim of Jew yet to you archives dave? Go check the Koran to let me know—I’ll leave it to you.

Religion too often facilitates evil in the human. It empowers them, gives them a psychological basis for their depravities in the name of their god, their empire, their lives and civilization. It is still alive and well in many parts of the world including within the USA power structure. More dangerous than a billion Muslims or Christians or people in general.
—-
Technically wouldn’t Lazarus have to wait with most everyone else for the raising of the dead, Transfiguration, Judgment then most of those being sent to Shoel & the few to Heaven? Not counting Enoch who was taken up alive to Heaven.

——

The Democrats are loaded with them. We just need to nurture the moderate an Progressive ones and let the radical reactionaries die on the vine, if not excluded altogether. Then we might be able to save the Republican party of we can find the moderates and Progessives (if any) that have been thrown out of that party.
—-
We also need to free the parties from their hermetically sealed protections so they can live or die like all other parties before them. They are mummified and well past their expiration date.

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By radson, September 18, 2010 at 8:44 am Link to this comment

Anarcissie

The ‘medium ’ is of utmost importance ,but at the moment the theory must be established.Are you alluding to a medium potential that may attract similar minds as the proposed discussion is being formulated?

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By Anarcissie, September 18, 2010 at 8:21 am Link to this comment

Radson—the medium is the message.

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By Shenonymous, September 18, 2010 at 8:10 am Link to this comment

Good morning Anarcissie.  Yes, having now had a bit time to have
what we had entertained on the Jollimore forum percolate in my
mind, the impulse to go forward with this idea has taken hold with
some emotion I admit.  But I also feel that without emotional
investment action is not really possible.  But I hope with rational
control.  I cannot see any way that current capitalism or the old
socialism projects can solve our enormous problems.  We have well
over 309 million people in the US and it is obvious that corporations
and the wealthy have the middle class and especially the poor by the
proverbial gonads and are squeezing the hell out of us via the political
power of the Republicans.  Those who are conscious are compelled to
do something about it. 

I completely agree with you that others are needed to take this
miserable situation seriously and simply not keep wasting their time
and mental energy with their various denouncements, which in my
mind represents an adolescent mind set.  I would welcome any
alternative programs and have consistently made such an invitation. 
Regardless of any other input, I will continue on my quest into
socialized capitalism.

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By radson, September 18, 2010 at 7:59 am Link to this comment

Anarcissie

Its not about replacing the media ,its about replacing the content.

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By BR549, September 18, 2010 at 7:43 am Link to this comment

Leefeller, September 18 at 11:27 am

That reads like a “B” movie, albeit a successful one. If it was true, my sympathies,
but all things happen for a reason.

Loved the comedic rendition.

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