For ‘DigThis’

The Mexican military has achieved dozens of incursions into the USA in Texas by air and in armored vehicles. No one in charge, Including Patriot Perry, gives a darn about it.

If you live and work on the Rio Grande River you see it.. pundits and policy makers ignore it or use it only for their short term policy goals.. The majority of America has no clue.

Adios!

“Outside of Tea party rationale(sic) how can anyone ...”

As a Tea Party person, I assure you we have more intelligence and education than the average American, and that we know very well what a ‘Palestinian state’ will lead to, even if the Leftists dont have a clue.

You claim that we conservatives are controlled by money from Israel, or some Zionist lobby. That is your paranoid delusion. But since you are so gullible about control, ask yourself… who controls you? What lobby is running your game?

For your insults towards me and towards other Christians, I ought to return your hatred with contempt. I cant blame Israel for doing the same.

PatrickHenry,

The following quote you have quoted from JFK’s speeches is worth repeating:

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable.”

Israel and Palestine conflict aside,the revolutions that started peacefully and ended-up bloody,in varying degree,in Libya,Syria and Yemen give profound credence to the above quote,as spelled out by President Kennedy.

It is highly impressive quote,since it leads to the real world in which a large segment of the human race has to endure. Sad.

Sodium-Na

Thank you for your kind words.

I am always suprised at our government and the values which created this once great nation when it is in so much in contrast to the Israel/Palestine issue.

Our congress has been hijacked by AIPAC and its agenda, it does not represent the majority of the people and it is in fact working against them.

In regard to Israel and Palestine the words of JFK come to mind, “those who make peaceful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable”.

The problem with your comment is that it makes a judgement based on a preconception rather than objectivity. Where is your objective evidence/proof that the Egyptian soldiers were terrorists/complicit?
Assumption of guilt isn’t proof. Seems to me Judge Roy Bean is your model of jurisprudence!

To you the lives of a few Israelis are more important that any number of anybody else.

Outside of Tea party rationale(sic) how can anyone logically argue that the Israeli responses are in any moral sense proportional even eye for an eye?
Looking at the issue body count the Israeli response is little different than the occupying SS 1 dead German= 10 locals.

It is pure fantasy to assert that a greater violent response will stop attacks on Israel… 60 years of history Israeli history proves that…. seems that they ignore their own holy book .....violence begets violence never resolution Period! If it did dictators would never face challenge.

Even the South African blacks have shown more restraint and conciliation that Israel… many many time more of them suffered and died that the Israelis in Palestine.

I find it stunning how easily some Americans can dispense with other’s rights because they don’t agree with them.

If you claim to be a Christian the hypocrisy of your stance would be palpable. “do unto others as you would have done unto you”, “vengence is mine sayeth the lord” et al.

Israel has a long history of extra national murders.
You’re probably too young to remember Mossad murdering the wrong (innocent) Palestinian in Norway… their target was up the road… “but what the hell the victim was a Palestinian (refugee) anyway”!(sic)
Oh yes, the Israeli army has killed(murdered) unarmed Americans too, but they were peace niks and reporters so they don’t count (sic).

Your attitude logically clearly supports/justifies these deaths too! Once you accept that the end justifies the means there is a short fall to Machiavelli’s view of government where the win is everything and to hell with facts, honour and morality. Where there are only two classes the dominators and the dominated.But wait the US has that now.

Why else do you think Murdoch became an American Citizen? because he loved Americans? No, so he could control more….

There is a profound difference between democracy/freedom than what exists in Israel, Palestine and increasingly The US… It’s enough to make all Americans proud (sic).
All this proves that human disasters are never the result of one action but failure to link little ones to the whole.

Re: By PatrickHenry,September 13 at 03:14 pm.

“Time for Israel to come clean and give the Palestinians their own nation,(state,really),as an act of attrition.”

A wise comment,indeed,PatrickHenry. It is good to read. Thanks for making it.

To those who could not see the implicit connection between the comment quoted above and the mob attack on Israel’s embassy in Cairo,Egypt,the following comments might help:

Attacking Israel’s embassy,or any other embassy in the world,must not be condoned or tolerated,at all,regardless of the cause. It is simply wrong-very wrong. And will never solve anything. Angry mob reject such a position based on the rules of laws and international norms.

Question:

If Israel has come clean on the legitimate rights of the Palestinian people,as PatrickHenry has suggested,would the attack,on its embassy in Cairo,have taken place?

The answer is NO,since there would have been no exuses or causes,for the mob,to do what they had passionately,emotionally and wrongly done.

Israel’s bullying the Palestinians,demolishing their homes and stealing their lands have consequences: the mobs in the Arab world will do everything in their power to avenge it,including attacking its embassies,however wrong such an act of anger might have been.

Israel’s leadership has to grow-up and wise-up a little bit and,more importantly,de-Zionize itself. There is no other way out of this lengthy and costly conflict-costly in human terms,moral terms and material terms as well.

No way out without changes in behaviors and policies as well. And such changes must start in Washington DC,particularly in the United States Congress whose majority acts as a bunch of puppets to what Israel’s lobby dictates. As long as such a dictation continues,there will be no peace in the Middle East. You can hold me on what I have just finished saying.

Only the future will confirm or negate what I have commented here.

This article is balanced to the point of having no voice or perspective at all. 

Can you imagine the reaction in the United States if, say, the Mexican military had launched an incurrsion into Texas looking for suspected militants?  If instead of finding any they had mistakenly killed several Texas State Troopers (or Rangers, or whatever they call themselves)?

And then the US gov did nothing except appease Mexico?

Texans would mount a vigilante posse of armed citizens who would do a hell of a lot worse than raid an embassey.

Or what about the Watts riots in the US back in 1965 when the NG was sent in?  Or in 1992?  This article implies that the Christian kind of violence here in the US is superior to the Muslim inspired violence in Egypt.

This is why the PM of Turkey is such a rock star in Egypt.  He’s on their side AND he isn’t an Islamic fundamentalist.

“On the tail of Israel’s crossing the border and killing innocent Egyptian officers,”
Terrorists crossed the border into Israel and massacred innocent civilians. Israel was in hot pursuit. How were terrorists able to slip by the
guards Egyptian soldiers without their complicity?

“while bombing civilians in Gaza,”
What about the thousands of rockets fired at the
civilians of Israel

“and then refusing to apologize to Turkey for killing nine of its civilian activists,”
All the other ships agreed to go to Israel to have
their cargo inspected for weapons that might be used
against Israeli civilians. No one was hurt. The cargo was shipped to Gaza. There is film footage of these so called activists attacking Israeli soldiers’,
and in the footage we see an Israeli soldier literally being thrown over the deck. Edrogen
should apologize to Israel for sending thugs to
create a incident for propaganda purposes. 

Israel’s image as aggressor, menace and enemy has become a beacon of cohesion for a simmering Egyptian agitation.
Israel gave back the entire Sinai for a peace treaty.
For thirty years there were no clashes with Egypt.
But There was gunfire. Egyptian soldiers fired on Sudanese who trying to seek sanctuary in “racist apartheid” Israel
Egypt TV is full of racist anti-Semitic (not just anti
Zionist) propaganda. Material so racist that in Israel
analogous anti Islam or anti Arab hate speech
would be illegal. In fact extremists in Israel have been prosecuted for such hate speech

This is a clueless mob, Stupid and dangerous. They have destroyed their generation in Egypt. Let’s hope their kids are more intelligent.

Everyone tried to warn them, but they knew better. Now its quite a joke as they struggle with their own army.

Far better to have picked candidates, voted, and monitored your elections. All the great dictators were ushered in on the shoulders of mobs like yours.

Live by violence, die by violence. You have learned a valuable lesson, too late. Put a fork in it.

The ‘free’ Egyptian youth are being empowered by the current Turkey vs. Israel theatre unfolding daily.

http://www.roytov.com/articles/johanne.htm

Turkey is in the right on this and any fault of hostility is soley because of Israels refusal to to what is right, apoligise, recompense the victims families and ensure it doesn’t happen again.

Any other action should be construde an act of war, remember a U.S. Citizen was killed.  The USS Liberty attack in 67’ gave the United States every right to turn Israel into a sheet of glass, we didn’t and neither did the Turks. 

Time for Israel to come clean and give the Palestinians their own nation as an act of attrition.

I dont think Lauren Unger-Geoffroy is an Egyptian citizen. I dont think there is anything she ‘should have done’ differently. i dont think the people of Egypt should have done anything differently.

It was in the USA’s interest that Egypt remain stable and at peace with Israel. Bloggers who are proposing that the USA brought Mubarak down are out of their minds. We preferred the stability to the risk.

True, our interest in stability is not necessarily what the Egyptian people want for themselves. They wanted something better than Mubarak. Only the Egyptians themselves could revolt against him, there wasnt some outside force causing it. Furthermore, taking the risk of revolt has paid off for them. They have gained a chance to form a government that represents them.

The risk and uncertainty about the future which Egyptians face is not because the CIA is meddling. Its because revolutions result in less stability for awhile. Various forces do compete for power, but they are mostly internal, and even without any external forces at all it could still be a bad outcome for the Egyptians.

For example, when the government shut down Al Jazeera service, that was not good. That was an Egyptian internal force at work, not the CIA. Yes, everyone in Egypt should worry. Thats the worst news so far. Blaming it on outside forces doesnt help, it actually makes it worse.

I am still worried about the nationalism and how one way to keep Egyptian people united is to bash Israel. That is not a good sort of nationalism, and that is how wars can start.

I havent given up hope. Truth is, Egypt is doing better than i expected. Overall i am quite impressed. I agree with gerard who said there is a window of opportunity for Egyptians to form a government that represents the Egyptians.

We should worry that the window is closing. We should worry that the next mob problem could be used as as a pretext to prevent all protests.

Geoffroy, not Geoffrey.

How many are there in Egypt who think as Lauren Unger-Geoffrey does? The numbers of similar thinkers seems to be unascertainable at present, but the more important question is how potent will these similar thinkers be at overcoming the powerful forces from without, and the powerful forces that control Egypt from within at present? The history of that area of the world, as well as the history of the world in general does not bode well in terms of achieving a desirable outcome to the current turmoil in Egypt.

The “Arab Spring” or the “Arab Awakening” was initially seen by many as being conducive to Western objectives, but the outcomes are now in doubt. Are there any possible outcomes that serve the espoused objectives of the West? It appears that the West is trapped in a morass where outcomes that serve the West’s espoused objectives are not achievable, unless the West’s actual objectives are limited to acquiring resources from Muslim lands and the hegemony of empire, but even the possibility of achieving those self serving objectives seems to be doubtful.

In Libya the most authoritative sources put the current death toll in Libya at 13,000 while the rebels claim a death toll of 50,000. I’ll proffer that the death toll in Libya will continue to climb. In Libya one of the most prominent Rebel leaders is a former Al Qaida operative. In Syria 2,600 deaths have been asserted by the U.N. and those who oppose the Assad regime are made up primarily of Hezbollah supporters.

False moral imperatives aside, the West’s intrusion into Muslim lands appears to be a tragic folly with no potential for positive outcomes from any perspective. Like Lauren Unger-Geoffreys I hope for positive outcomes in terms of humanitarian goals and democratic governance free from outside influence, but I fear that hope is a vain hope.

In addition to the many good comments to this practically odious commentary I
noticed this.. The very language of the authors betrays their anti-revolution and
anti-democracy stance.

‘Violated’ to describe the break in and more at the Israeli embassy? .. if that isn’t
a word used to raise the emotions and preclude discussion, what is?

It’s like using ‘desecrated’ in reference to what the nuts and media-hogs do when they burn or trample the US flag.. I mean they are kinda nuts and I don’t like to see it either.. ‘desercrated’? Old Glory isn’t Saint Francis’ left thumb.. for gawd’s sake. More emphasis on what America should really mean and try to
accomplish.. less on symbols and emotions.

The author seems caught in his/her politics more than any desire to accurately portray what’s happening or bring peace.

That’s what I think.

Adios!

It is obviously very difficult to be accurately descriptive of what´s going on in a military
dictatorship when one is inside it and can be squeezed by it for propagating the truth.

Neither does continuing to fantasize that “the people have taken over” assist with accuracy.
How many of those people are still free vs in lockups vs in hiding is a valid question.

“On Friday its unfortunately predictable pent-up mob energy followed the obvious path to the most visible enemy, and acted out without purpose in storming the Israeli Embassy, damaging the image of the movement’s success in the eyes of the world.  “

Geoffroy is apparently terrified by real, direct democracy. After years of feeling like citizens of a puppet state, watching Egypt collaborate with Israel’s brutal policies in Gaza, especially during 2008’s Operation Cast Lead, they let the world know they will not accept apartheid, fascist regimes on their soil. Maybe Egypt’s image as tarnished before the eyes of watered down “centrists” or elite sectors, but for most of the world, for the poor, oppressed and downtrodden, the actions of the Egyptians masses were heroic.

Israelis themselves know this:

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israel-is-paying-for-gaza-war-with-turkey-and-egypt-crises-1.383688

We like to think that it is reasonable to expect nations that have been ruled by despotic all-powerful torturing and brutal dictators supported by the U.S., to go from the dictatorship to a social-democratic state in a few weeks simply because their young people seem very nice.  In fact all the people seem nice, and we wish them to have a better life.

But as I recall, it’s pretty well established that the process does not work that way.  Oppressed people subjected to injustice react when the chains are loosened.  They often overreact and are themselves oppressive—the new oppressors.  We hope over time that something better emerges.  The fact that there will be missteps along the way doesn’t mean they shouldn’t begin the process of change.  I guess our best role is to cheer on those who are committed to democracy and equality.  I expect our government will be financing the oppressive dicators, as always.

Now Egypt’s Supreme Council of the Armed Forces (SCAF) can claim justification in making a tougher stance on protests. Israel and critics of Egypt see justification in their negative viewpoint, and Egypt loses dignity and face.

Well, I dont think its really that bad. Heck, i am a conservative, as a general rule i dont like revolution since they are risky, but even i dont think Egypt was discredited by the mob at the Israeli embassy. It wasnt the whole nation that stormed the embassy, just a few hundred. So hopefully the world isnt too critical.

The football mentality is the people at their least common denominator, as is tribal-type loyalty and the rallying point of Palestine and “martyrs” and a few other instant-reaction buttons, to which the youthful and inexperienced “revolutionaries” have no resistance.

Now I will be critical. In previous articles Lauren Unger-Geoffroy, you used those very words and concepts. You used them without expressing any reluctance or hesitation. I am not saying that the ‘instant hot buttons’ are automatically illegitimate issues, but on the other hand I would like you to be more aware of them beforehand.

Though there was a new trend of freedom in media expression, the official pressure to not criticize the military has come to a head in the raid on the Egyptian Al-Jazeera television network, concurrent with the Egyptian and Israeli governments’ attempts to re-establish their awkward peace after Friday night’s attack on the Israeli Embassy.

Egypt’s minister of media, Osama Heikal, had warned that the government would take action against stations that “endanger the stability and security” of the nation, and some fear this could be the beginning of the end of the freedoms of expression gained since the overthrow of Mubarak in February.

That is very hard news. People are right to worry.

It seems unlikely that none of the numerous forces waiting to turn Egypt’s movement to their advantage would have been involved in getting Egypt’s revolution to behave against its own interests, to keep it weak and malleable to their sophisticated agendas.

It is not helpful to see the natural weakness and unpredictability of human beings(especially when they form a mob) as the work of outside forces! It leads to ‘hot button’ mentality. In other words, we start blaming the outside ‘other’ people we already dont like for what our own people did wrong.

No police. Can you imagine the USA for one week with no police? There would be nothing left. There would be slaughter and destruction. Egyptians are truly good and faithful people who value morality and virtue and obedience to their God. They believe in right and wrong.

I will be critical here. I live in the USA, in the Bible belt. Have you forgotten us? We would get along without police. We are ‘truly good and faithful people who value morality and virtue and obedience to God’. We ‘believe in right and wrong’.

Do you know what that gets us in our own country, at our own universities? From atheists and from Leftist websites like Truthdig?

Scorn. Ridicule. Wild accusations such as “FUNDAMENTALISM KILLS” made by Chris Hedges right here on Truthdig recently.

I have 4 years of experience on this website. I have experienced 12 years of higher education, and been a Christian for 30 years in this country. There is a decades-long scapegoating of Christians by the athiest elitists and Leftists. Its getting worse. Its getting more serious.

I do not question the goodness of Egyptians. My beef here is with Truthdig itself. It is so hypocritical sometimes.

Lauren’s question about Egypt is one I ask about Truthdig as well: Is this a shared intention to keep the rubble dust and smoke in the air, obscuring the nature of the endgame?

They are not the mob. They are the people of Egypt and they will eventually get what they want because the alternative is going to war with them, the way Gaddafi went to war with the people of Libya. That didn’t end too well for him and his cronies.

Powerful paragraphs:

“It seems unlikely that none of the numerous forces waiting to turn Egypt’s movement to their advantage would have been involved in getting Egypt’s revolution to behave against its own interests, to keep it weak and malleable to their sophisticated agendas.

But what are these other agendas? How many? Which are in whose interest? And which will dominate? Is this a shared intention to keep the rubble dust and smoke in the air, obscuring the nature of the endgame?

Insha allah, in the coming days there will be a new page and the people will regain some effectiveness and insight. I hope it will be led by the people who understand the big picture and how to make it all work to achieve a new and better Egypt. As we hope and pray that the coming changes in the world will bring a better life for all.

May we have the strength and enough time to learn strategy and focus and put them to use while the ball is still in play.”