Top Leaderboard, Site wide
August 28, 2014
Truthdig: Drilling Beneath the Headlines
Help us grow by sharing
and liking Truthdig:
Sign up for Truthdig's Email NewsletterLike Truthdig on FacebookFollow Truthdig on TwitterSubscribe to Truthdig's RSS Feed

Newsletter

sign up to get updates


The Fall and Rise of Investigative Journalism






Truthdig Bazaar more items

 
Report

Carlos Montes and the Security State: A Cautionary Tale

Email this item Email    Print this item Print    Share this item... Share

Posted on Jul 10, 2011
Carlos Montes

Carlos Montes addresses supporters at a rally outside the Alhambra branch of Los Angeles County Superior Court on June 16.

By Chris Hedges

(Page 2)

“It was kind of misty,” he said. “The ground was wet. They put me in the back seat of the car. I was handcuffed. They closed the doors and the windows. I was sitting there looking around, in a state of shock, thinking is this a dream or the real thing? I tried to close my eyes for a little while to see if I could wake up from this nightmare. I always had it in the back of my mind, one day they will come and raid me. My name was on the anti-war committee FBI search warrant raid in Minnesota. People were saying ‘we all got raided and your name is there.’ The lawyers said, ‘Beware—it could happen to you sooner or later.’ They were raided on Sept. 24 last year.”

Those who were raided were all issued subpoenas to appear before a federal grand jury in Chicago. They have refused to testify. The March on the RNC organizing committee was infiltrated by an agent although the protest groups had obtained licenses to demonstrate at the Republican National Convention. The Justice Department’s inspector general later released a report that criticized the FBI for invoking anti-terrorist laws to justify its investigations and harassment of peace and solidarity groups, including Greenpeace, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, and the Catholic Worker. 

While Montes was in the back of the police car a man in a windbreaker and a baseball cap approached the vehicle. The sheriff’s deputies rolled down the right rear window. The man in the baseball cap told Montes he was from the FBI and wanted to speak with him.

“I blurted out, ‘Do you have a card?’ ” Montes said. “He laughed and said, ‘I don’t have a card.’ He said, ‘I want to talk to you about Freedom Road Socialist Organization.’ I didn’t say anything. I kept quiet. And then he walked away.”

Advertisement

Square, Site wide
Montes has written articles for the newspaper Fight Back News about Chicano immigrants’ rights struggles in Los Angeles, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the fight against the rise of charter schools. He said he was not a member of Freedom Road Socialist Organization. The organization, a Marxist group, is reportedly being investigated by the FBI because of connections with the Colombian rebel group the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) and the Palestinian group the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, both of which have been labeled as terrorist organizations. The Sept. 24, 2010, search warrant for the anti-war committee offices in Minneapolis lists Montes’ name among the group’s affiliates.

Montes was taken to the Los Angeles County Jail, known as the Twin Towers, and held for 24 hours until he was able to post a $35,000 bail.

“They called my sister to secure [my] house,” he said. “She called the handyman and he put a piece of plywood over my door. I did not have my wallet with me. When I got out of the county jail I did not have any phone numbers or money or an ID. I was walking around in slippers—at least they gave me slippers—and my pajamas. I got back about 5:30 the next morning. I got the door off. There were files and papers on the floor along with photograph albums of the anti-war movement, Latinos Against the War, the ’92 Rebellion, my son’s wedding, my daughter’s birthday, scattered on my kitchen table and floor. It looked like they lined up a bunch of stuff on tables and went through it. It was the same thing with my living room table. They had a file out from 1994 when we did a campaign against police brutality when the sheriffs were going crazy killing people. In my closet I had Chicano archives going back to the 1960s and 1970s. Those were pulled out and on the floor. They went through all my political documents, including my work with the Southern California Immigration Coalition and the campaign to elect a school board member, which we won, to stop the privatization of the local high school and the charters coming in. They went through all those files. It took me a couple of weeks to clean things up. They took a bunch of stuff.”   

“The government sees the Chicano people as a threat,” he said. “We were able to turn out millions of people in 2006. In 1994 we had hundreds of thousands. We are growing. There are millions in the Southwest. We are all over the country, but especially in Arizona, Texas, New Mexico and California. We are still unorganized, but if we get organized we could really demand changes. We had millions of people out in 2006 and then they came after us hard in 2007. There was a lot of police repression, especially in Los Angeles. They fear the Chicano people challenging the status quo.” 

“Many of the activists that were raided by the police are anti-war and solidarity activists,” he went on. “And even though the anti-war movement is not massive right now, the potential is there because there is an economic crisis. There is mass disgust with this economic system. People are out of work. It is not yet like COINTELPRO [Counter Intelligence Program] started under Hoover and the FBI to carry out surveillance, infiltrate and disrupt domestic political organizations, but the situation is getting worse. That is why we have to have demonstrations to put a stop to it now.”   


New and Improved Comments

If you have trouble leaving a comment, review this help page. Still having problems? Let us know. If you find yourself moderated, take a moment to review our comment policy.

LocalHero's avatar

By LocalHero, September 24, 2011 at 6:14 pm Link to this comment

Revolting. And, at the top of the Truthdig page, a banner ad for the jack-boots themselves (a branch anyway), the Air National Guard.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, July 19, 2011 at 3:35 pm Link to this comment

Well, it’s nice to be in agreement yet again.

Report this
Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, July 19, 2011 at 1:06 pm Link to this comment

Goodness, I didn’t say that capitalism or capitalists eliminated slavery out of the goodness of their hearts!  Given that the slave trade was revived and greatly expanded in the early modern era (1500-1700), I’d say that at first the expansion of industrial capitalism made it more attractive.  However, ‘the bourgeoisie cannot exist without constantly revolutionizing the instruments of production, and thereby the relations of production, and with them the whole relations of society’ and evidently in the mid-18th century the economic wind began to blow the other way, in the more industrialized countries, anyway.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, July 19, 2011 at 8:56 am Link to this comment

Anarcissie:
We’ve been down the slavery path before.  But it’s fundamental to understand that slavery, as an economic system, exists when labor is scarce. It’s not economically viable when labor is abundant. The market forces, not the goodness of anyone’s heart, reduces or ends it.

The industrialists and movers and shakers in the Union of course didn’t REALLY care about slaves: What they cared about was markets and suppliers. The railroads when West, not South, and the breadbasket of America went West with them, not South. The South resisted railroads, preferring instead to trade with Britain more than the US. The issues from 1787 flared up again and the restriction of the expansion of slavery was CRUCIAL to who controlled Congress, and ultimately the nation.  Naturally the South wanted EVERY new state to be a slave-holder, and the North none.  Again, not for humanitarian reasons, but to control Congress. Slavery was a WEAPON to control the South as well, and part of why they left was they KNEW their parity with the North was over.

Economic and political self-interest can push people to commit heinous crimes, but can also push them to “Do The Right Thing” unintentionally.  So it was with slavery.  And you don’t even need Marxism to explain it!

Report this
Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, July 19, 2011 at 8:06 am Link to this comment

I’m very interested in the thing about Honduras.  It’s as if you had asserted that I posted a series of messages arguing passionately that the earth was flat.

Report this
Peetawonkus's avatar

By Peetawonkus, July 19, 2011 at 7:52 am Link to this comment

Anarcissie
I would never presume to slander your reputation. I’m
only trying to help you find it.

In the meantime, while diligent searches continue and
cyber hounds sniff archived trails, let’s not forget
those other historical points you’ve regrettably
gotten wrong. In as much as my schedule allows, I’d
be happy to take your wayward education under my
wing. May I recommend anything by William W.
Freehling, starting with “The South Versus The
South?” 

Old Karl is dandy but even he admitted he got a few
things wrong.

Report this
Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, July 19, 2011 at 6:55 am Link to this comment

Peetawonkus, July 19 at 6:02 am:

Anarcissie
It may have escaped your memory, memory being what it
is. But you did. Trust me. Unfortunately, Truthdig
has moved its servers and so has rendered searches
for older material problematic. If it’s any
consolation, you argued very hard for the
constitutionality of the military coup—that is, for
someone who doesn’t “know much of anything about the
constitution of Honduras.” That is, of course, what
some people tried to tell you at the time.  ...

Well, it’s all very odd.  I have no memory of writing anything about the constitutionality of the military coup in Honduras, much less ‘arguing very hard’.  It’s not the kind of argument I think I would be attracted to, nor do I know anything about the constitution of Honduras, nor do I like military coups.  I haven’t been able to turn up anything in Google, although Google shows messages I have written here back to 2008, which is when I started posting things here (as I recall).  I don’t see any reason why, given the total absence of evidence, there isn’t just as much chance that your memory is defective as that mine is.  However, I’m hoping that you’ll keep looking for it, because I’m really curious as to what you’re talking about.  Maybe it’s the shadow of my evil twin.

In reference to slavery, I’m just following Marx, more or less.  The idea that ruling classes from their heights reached down through their governments and abolished slavery out of the goodness of their hearts seems ludicrous to me.  I think the opposite: Abolition was a revolt against governments and states.  But don’t worry about our little difference of opinion here.  Just find my supposed messages in favor of those Honduran putschists.  Otherwise someone might think you were slandering my pristine reputation.

Report this

By TAO Walker, July 19, 2011 at 6:55 am Link to this comment

Once more out of the breech…..from the old “wind”-breaker.

HokaHey!

Report this
Peetawonkus's avatar

By Peetawonkus, July 19, 2011 at 6:02 am Link to this comment

Anarcissie
It may have escaped your memory, memory being what it
is. But you did. Trust me. Unfortunately, Truthdig
has moved its servers and so has rendered searches
for older material problematic. If it’s any
consolation, you argued very hard for the
constitutionality of the military coup—that is, for
someone who doesn’t “know much of anything about the
constitution of Honduras.” That is, of course, what
some people tried to tell you at the time.

However, without getting too side tracked, the larger
point is that your statements concerning slavery and
the Civil War are strangely reminiscent of someone
who doesn’t “know much of anything” about the
subject. Not that that necessarily should dampen your
enthusiasm for jumping in with opinions. Capitalism,
for instance, didn’t “allow”, as you claim, “enough
wealth to escape into the lower orders to support the
rise of the working class as a political entity.” It
isn’t a question of “allow.”

Nor was the Emancipation Proclamation “a salute to
the power of the working-class anti-slavery movement
in Great Britain.” Lincoln was, at best, only vaguely
aware of such things, having them brought to his
attention by various Abolitionists in meetings. Those
things to Lincoln, however, were incidental and
irrelevant. The Union had early on in the war, having
observed British cotton ships running blockades,
advised Britain that the industrialized Union would
win the war. It was just a question of time. If
Britain persisted in aiding the South, after the war
Britain might find its major source of cotton being
heavily restricted. That, more than anything else,
caused the British to scale back their gun running
and blockage running. And it frightened them enough
to diversify their cotton sources, hence the rise of
cotton plantations in India and elsewhere in the last
decades of the 19th century.

The Emancipation Proclamation was strictly for
domestic consumption. Largely criticised in the Union
as a Proclamation having no teeth, since the Union
had no authority to proclaim anything in Southern
territory, it was, in fact, widely seen in the South
as an incitement to slaves to flee toward northern
lines and engage in sabotage. We can argue Lincoln’s
intent but the net effect was exactly that. Grant
correctly surmised—and advised Lincoln—that
Southern forces, being denied more and more slave
labor, would have to dedicate white Confederate
soldiers to tasks like digging ditches, building
fortifications and staffing supply lines. Every
Confederate soldier thus occupied would be one less
Confederate soldier to fight on a battlefield. It was
very effective as a tactic, and ever more so as the
war went on.

You are also wrong when you say “the Civil Rights
movement was a rebellion against the government.”

Indeed, you are endowed with a rich supply of faulty
historical analysis, and we could set them up like
bowling pins all day long. You are obviously well
read. It’s just that you’ve been reading the wrong
books.

And…you’re welcome.

Report this

By radson, July 18, 2011 at 6:35 pm Link to this comment

The misconstrued donkey is jealous !

cheers

Report this
Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, July 18, 2011 at 1:50 pm Link to this comment

Peetawonkus, July 18 at 1:27 pm:

It’s been awhile so it’s always interesting to see
what the old same players are arguing. Anarcissie, I
see, is still generating a fog of philosophy around
simple questions that can be answered directly and
simply. This coming from someone who argued (and
argued) that the military coup in Honduras was
constitutional. ...

I did?  It’s escaped my memory completely, and Google doesn’t seem to be turning anything up.  I don’t now, and don’t think I ever did, know much of anything about the constitution of Honduras.  I’m mystified by your assertion, and I hope you can give me a cite.

Anyway, my questions have been answered directly and simply.  The problem is that the simpler answers tend to be along the lines of ‘Shut up, he explained.’

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, July 18, 2011 at 1:49 pm Link to this comment

Congrats, TW:
You’ve gotten a hard-core right-wing defender of All Things Republican to agree with you.

Another grand trophy for your shelf.  It’s underwhelming!

Hokem-Today.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, July 18, 2011 at 1:46 pm Link to this comment

Anarcissie, July 17 at 5:50 pm Link to this comment

ITW—I didn’t say government couldn’t do anything good.  I said, and I quote, ‘It seems to me that if we observe a social form that produces a lot of evil, of exactly the same type which it is unquestionably based on, that it would be only reasonable to question its goodness, or even the possibility of its goodness.’  Of course it is possible to frame off individual acts by governments which we think are good.  It would be superhuman to always do evil.  I’m just saying evil is the default expectation.
************

Finally! A meeting of the minds!  Yes, I can agree that if government isn’t actively watched, challenged, criticized, held up to ridicule, and ultimately never trusted, it will inherently do evil. 

But that’s because if citizens don’t actively watch, challenge, criticize, hold up to ridicule, and never trust government, greedy dishonest creeps will always exploit it for their own selfish ends.

Even our flawed founding fathers knew this, which is why SO much attention is payed in the Bill of Rights to limiting Government’s power to shut us up, or punish us with capricious arrests and property seizures.  It is these very clauses that the GOP particularly seeks to negat.

Report this
Peetawonkus's avatar

By Peetawonkus, July 18, 2011 at 1:27 pm Link to this comment

It’s been awhile so it’s always interesting to see
what the old same players are arguing. Anarcissie, I
see, is still generating a fog of philosophy around
simple questions that can be answered directly and
simply. This coming from someone who argued (and
argued) that the military coup in Honduras was
constitutional. (If you believe governments are guns
held to our heads then I suppose it’s natural to
defend the most egregiously machine gun totin’ brand
in the neighborhood.) History, law and economics from
an alternate universe are definitely Anarcissie’s
strong points. Especially claims that what killed off
slavery was capitalism. No ma’am. Slavery is the
perfect form of capitalism, refined through violence
and the threat of violence to extract the maximum
wealth from the cheapest possible investment in
labor. What killed off slavery in America, amongst
many things and aside from the Union Army, was its
pyschotic unwillingness to co-exist with any other
system but its own.

Report this
Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, July 17, 2011 at 5:50 pm Link to this comment

ITW—I didn’t say government couldn’t do anything good.  I said, and I quote, ‘It seems to me that if we observe a social form that produces a lot of evil, of exactly the same type which it is unquestionably based on, that it would be only reasonable to question its goodness, or even the possibility of its goodness.’  Of course it is possible to frame off individual acts by governments which we think are good.  It would be superhuman to always do evil.  I’m just saying evil is the default expectation.

Report this

By radson, July 17, 2011 at 5:32 pm Link to this comment

TAO I concur

cheers

Report this

By TAO Walker, July 17, 2011 at 1:26 pm Link to this comment

It probably wouldn’t be thought necessary, by a certain CONgenitally CONtentious
participant here, to keep claiming to be a “grown-up”....if there was any actual
evidence of that in his own ‘side’ of the CONverstion.

Hokahey!

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, July 17, 2011 at 10:59 am Link to this comment

No, Anarcissie. You have your facts wrong.  The EP is not godlike by Honest Abe. It was, of course, a totally political move, a weapon of war so to speak.

Yet, it STILL declared that under US law, slaves in the treasonous states were declared free, therefore setting them up as the perfect “fifth column”. 

But does that make the Emancipation not a good thing? How can you say that in good conscience?

The Civil Rights Act was in 1964. Joseph McCarthy was brought down in 1954…ten years earlier, and RFK was just a kid in his mid-20’s. By the time the Voting Rights Act was voted into law, in 1965, RFK was the junior Senator from New York.

You also twist history, forgetting that RFK pushed his brother heavily to aid in the Civil Rights struggle. JFK was much more reluctant. I STILL remember vividly RFK sending Federal forces into Alabama to counteract Wallace’s efforts to keep the Univ of Alabama segregated, tho paid for in part by the Black citizens’ taxes…who couldn’t go there.  RFK wanted to bring the FBI to heel so he could find out EXACTLY how few Blacks were being allowed to vote in the South.

Ronald Reagan went from a Democrat to reactionary Republican.  RFK went from a fervent Red-hunter to a fervent advocate for Civil Rights, even as Attorney General for both his brother and LBJ.

You are entitled to your opinions, Anarcissie.  You aren’t entitled to rewrite the facts.  They don’t support your assertion. Period.

Report this
Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, July 17, 2011 at 7:28 am Link to this comment

I think the Emancipation Proclamation and the circumstances surrounding it are a really, really good example of what I’m talking about.

In the Proggie version of history, there was just all this slavery goin’ on somehow, and then godlike Honest Abe arose from his log cabin and put an end to it.

In the real world, slavery was vigorously supported by governments.  In fact, it’s reasonable to suppose that the state was invented in the ancient world precisely to support and protect slavery.  Because if you don’t have an agreement among slavers to keep slaves under control—the state—then the slaves will run away, or even kill their masters.  If you look at the revival of slavery in the early modern world (1000-1500) you’ll find governments actively promoting the slave trade, usually for economic reasons.  What killed slavery was not governments or ruling classes, it was capitalism, and the way it killed slavery was by allowing enough wealth to escape into the lower orders to support the rise of the working class as a political entity.  Working-class people didn’t like slavery, for obvious reasons.  The Emancipation Proclamation wasn’t some godlike gift; it was a very clever move, a salute to the power of the working-class anti-slavery movement in Great Britain, which removed any possibility that the ruling class and government there would support the South (as they wished to but were afraid to do.)

But you don’t know any of that.  All you know about is Honest Abe.

A lot of the proggie view is completely backward.  Civil Rights?  The Civil Rights movement was a rebellion against the government.  Bobby Kennedy, fresh from his work with Tailgunner Joe, and J. Edgar Hoover, were investigating and trying to set up Civil Rights leaders, not help them.

It’s some kind of brainwashing—everything gets turned upside down and backwards.  Take Katrina.  When the hurricane struck, for days the only people helping the victims (besides themselves) were individuals and unofficial small groups.  Government, from FEMA down to the local police, either did nothing, or sequestered useful resources and kept them out of reach, or actively attacked the victims.  Only after several days of extremely adverse publicity did the government come in other than as an enemy of the people.  So what was the proggie response?  ‘We need more and stronger government!’

Oh, well.  I’m probably wasting my time.  You can’t really argue people out of religious belief.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, July 17, 2011 at 6:37 am Link to this comment

{i]Only The Living Virtue of Organic Functional Integrity can heal those sickened by that affliction.
**********

The hypocritical bird curses the wings he flies on yet again.

The grown-ups are carrying on an intelligent discussion here.

Report this

By TAO Walker, July 16, 2011 at 10:03 pm Link to this comment

“Anarcissie” again poses a problem, with the “government” CONstruct, for
which its apologists have yet to find a solution; i.e., its origins (if this Indian
might presume to paraphrase) in the very “dominance”-paradigm the more
ugly propensities of which it is supposed to somehow keep more-or-less in-
check….except, maybe, when there’s “money” to be made or “power” to be
grabbed if ‘things’ are allowed to drift closer to the “less” side.  The CONtention
they respond with, that “good government” (or “governance”) overcomes this
too-often lethal deficiency, however sincerely advanced, simply begs the
question.

It leaves entirely unaddressed the matter of where, exactly, any “good"ness in
“government” will come from.  One commenter has already ruled out Humanity
as a possible source, asserting the “self”-justifying canard that Human nature
is basically flawed, with an inherent tendency to “evil.”  That “individual” has
plenty of miserable company in that belief, too, as it’s been preached at the
hapless hordes of homo domesticus for thousands of years.

It’s all well and good to parrot the pro-“government’ propaganda with which
our tame Sisters and Brothers have been bombarded all their half-lives….so
long as it at-least appears to work in the interests of their own “self.”  Sooner
or later, though, the foundation of “government” in armed force will emerge to
disabuse those subject to it of any illusions about where they really belong in
its pyramid scheme-of-things.  That’s when the “velvet glove” comes off the
iron fist….and the chronic rule of fear is replaced (as it has been here in these
latter days) by an outright reign-of-terror.

Only The Living Virtue of Organic Functional Integrity can heal those sickened
by that affliction.

Hokahey!

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, July 16, 2011 at 9:54 pm Link to this comment

Anarcissie, July 16 at 6:03 pm Link to this comment

It seems to me that if we observe a social form that produces a lot of evil, of exactly the same type which it is unquestionably based on, that it would be only reasonable to question its goodness, or even the possibility of its goodness.  That just seems like ordinary common sense to me.
*************

This is really vague and obscure. Can you give concrete examples that cannot be reasonably explained by other phenomena?

For example, it’s hard for me to think of the Emancipation Proclamation as evil.  It’s hard for me to think of the early TVA as evil. It’s hard for me to think of the national infrastructure laid down in the 30’s and 40’s as evil.
It’s hard for me to think of the Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights Act, and Brown v Board, and Loving as evil decisions and acts.

It’s even hard to think of the USDA grading beef as evil, unless the officials are corrupted.

And, sure, I can think of LOTS of gov’t evil, like the revised FISA, and the MCA.

So??? What the point?

Report this
Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, July 16, 2011 at 6:03 pm Link to this comment

It seems to me that if we observe a social form that produces a lot of evil, of exactly the same type which it is unquestionably based on, that it would be only reasonable to question its goodness, or even the possibility of its goodness.  That just seems like ordinary common sense to me.

Report this

By George, July 16, 2011 at 4:07 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Well if they are throwing these kinds of resources at Mr. Montes when can we
expect to hear about the thousands of police involved in raids in Connecticut and
in Manhattan on the homes of those criminals responsible for the financial
collapse of 2008?

Report this

By TAO Walker, July 16, 2011 at 3:27 pm Link to this comment

Well, that didn’t take long.  The “self”-proclaimed “friend”-liness of “JDmysticDJ”
turns-out to entirely feigned, after-all.

Oh well….easy come easy go.

HokaHey!

Report this
JDmysticDJ's avatar

By JDmysticDJ, July 16, 2011 at 3:21 pm Link to this comment

Anarcissie (This is my second attempt to post this comment, hopefully I won’t get duped)

Your recounting of U.S. history is indisputably true, but not exclusive to you. I have recounted this history on many occasions, generally including more of the gory details.

You have recounted U.S. history clearly and concisely, and I am always pleased to see such comments. Unless I am operating under a misapprehension no one who has taken issue with your thinking here disputes the reality of what you have written about U.S. history.

Where we differ is I offer this historical reality as a motivation for better government, while you offer this historical reality as a condemnation of the concept of government. Please take note that the once frequently heard prayer, “God protect us from the wrath of the Norseman” no longer has any significance. The once bloody and barbarous Vikings have become peaceful and prosperous, and are practicing good or better governance, if you prefer.

“So how do you deal with this?  You say, ‘Oh, that’s just bad government—good government is hunky-dory.’  So that’s your version of doublethink.  I don’t think that’s a very good explanation of constantly repeated events; I’m surprised you’re so satisfied with it.”

The above comment by you is either a total miscomprehension by you, or an infantile attempt at demagoguery. “Hunky-dory” might be one way to describe good governance, but that description strikes me as being a childishly simplistic description of good governance. No one here has said that they are,” So satisfied” with bad governance. “Doublethink” is not applicable here, because no one here is accepting of bad government, speaking for myself, and I believe for Inherit The Wind as well, we are advocating for good government. You are not guilty of “doublethink” you are quite clear in your single minded blanket condemnation of governance; denying the validity of, and effectiveness of, good governance.

Yes I believe Weber expressed progressive ideas for his day and time, but I must say that I consider him to be just another abstract German intellectual whose thinking allowed for abuses. Weber as the father of the philosophy of Bureaucracy and an advocate of administrative Bureaucracy inadvertently advocated for a harmful entity according to my perception. Bureaucracy is the process where like minded individuals achieve positions of power; the ultimate in cronyism, most prevalent in business, but also prevalent in government (Bad government.)

Report this

By TAO Walker, July 16, 2011 at 3:19 pm Link to this comment

So has Robert Scheer gone on-vacation and left the windy fellah in-charge?  Sure
doesn’t bode well for the level of discourse here.

His banal ‘lecture’ below, full of recycled cliches and ignoring completely all the
“deadly” “government”-enforced “order” rampant in the world, reveals an
arrested-development-afflicted “individual” trapped in the illusions of perpetual
childhood….and getting desperate as his make-believe world falls-to-pieces all
around him.

HokaHey!

Report this
JDmysticDJ's avatar

By JDmysticDJ, July 16, 2011 at 3:04 pm Link to this comment

Tao Walker, you silver hammer tongued devil you, I’m impressed with you skill at sophistry, but your ability to think without having to navigate through the “SELF” enveloping fog, not so much.

It seems that neither of us is much impressed with the communication skills of the other, well, I take that back, I am impressed with your clever and specious use of witty sophistry. You sometimes make me laugh, but usually the laughter you induce is not so much because of your wit, but because of the lack of it. (How’s that for animus?)

Having worked my way through the fog of your thinking on numerous occasions, I can see clearly now. I’ve got a fog light that shines right through your idiosyncratic rhetoric. Scrolling through the comments here at truthdig, and coming across one of your idiosyncratic commentaries, I have learned by now that you will be commenting about the civilization disease…again. Your idiosyncratic rhetoric does get a little tiresome after a while.

If we should ever meet in other than a virtual context, you can bet that I’ll be doing my best to steal your damn horses.

Incidentally, I had no idea modern tee pees were replete with paint and internet access. I fear that you’ve been infected by the civilization disease.

So long for now, let me leave you with some friendly advice. When you’re out trudging down the path, don’t let a coyote sink his fangs into you.

Hoka hi yay yah, get along little doggie.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, July 16, 2011 at 2:46 pm Link to this comment

Tao,
The rational grown-ups are talking.  If you actually have something to contribute, you are welcome.  If it’s just more of your obscure recycled slogans, please find someone else to annoy.

Anarcissie. I’m not sure where you are going with this. A list of the horrors of every government can easily be found.  However, you are mistaking what is a problem with human nature with being a problem of governments that were created to DEAL with those problems.  The chaos in nations without active government, from Somalia to Afghanistan surely isn’t desirable. Anarchy cannot exist without becoming Chaos, and deadly Chaos at that.  Most people have little moral fiber which is why we tell children “That’s what happens when you are caught cheating” rather than “That’s happens when you cheat”.  See the difference?

What do you suggest in place of “government”?

Report this

By TAO Walker, July 16, 2011 at 1:23 pm Link to this comment

Well, talk-about damning-with-faint-(Or could it be feint?)-praise.  Friend
“JDmysticDJ,” whom this Old Indian neither “likes” nor “dislikes,” either (but
might well like should we ever actually meet as actual rather than ‘virtual’
Persons), could teach his (probably only temporary) tag-team partner a thing or
two about that almost lost rhetorical ‘art.’

It will be interesting to see whether this somewhat qualified “friend”-liness,
however, extends all The Way to his saying candidly what cloudiness-of-mind
his own not-exactly-hidden “animus” brings to his own “thinking.”  This Old
Savage, for example, has said plainly several times here that what he has to
offer by-way of good counsel, to our tame Sisters and Brothers, is just the one
thing:  To get well, get-over your “self.”  Get together as Natural Persons
ORGANized in genuine Human Community.  Give your undivided precious
attention altogether to to the Living Needs of our Mother Earth, All Our
relations, and each other….and do this with unconditional spontaneous
affection.  This IS The Living Virtue of Organic Functional Integrity in active
“non-action.”

What “JDnysticDJ” keeps calling this Person’s “idiosyncratic” verbal formulation
come, in-fact, as naturally and honestly to Yours Truly as his own (to this un-
trained virtual ‘ear’ and actual eye) often stilted and hackneyed usages, no-
doubt come to him.  As for “dilemmas,” this Old Man. in a very long Whole Life,
has been on ‘the horns’ of several.  None of them, however, involve any
CONfusion about what distinguishes Free Wild from domesticated Persons and
Peoples….of ALL kinds.  Besides, the Elders have always taught us that it’s often
necessary to repeat frequently as needed (like with any Good Medicine) any
‘message’ we might have for the chronically “self”-directed and habitually
“self”-CONtained….and it’s well-known that their is no “corner” in even a
painted tepee.   

What’s ‘wrong,’ anyhow, with having a little fun with a language whose ‘users’ so
often take it (and their own too-precious “self”)  with such deadly seriousness
so much of the time?

HokaHey!

Report this

By TAO Walker, July 16, 2011 at 12:33 pm Link to this comment

Some wish to see “government” through ‘rosy-scenario”-colored glasses….and
even then only by-way-of its airbrushed, PR-enhanced, suitable-for-children-
of-all-ages, “self”-satisfying imagery.  These disciples often react in defensive
horror at those easily come-by (because they’re everywhere on-the-record and
in the everyday half-lives of the hapless subjects), less-than-pretty (even
downright ugly) evidences of its other, pure “police-power” side.  They do tend,
though, to direct their outrage not at the institutional arrangement they idolize,
but at those with the poor taste and/or temerity to point-out the many
obviously inherent flaws in their tin god “government.”  We have on this thread
some quite representative samples of that proclivity. 

Some, on-the-other-hand, have stomachs sufficiently strong to look at
“government” and see it for what it is, a delivery system for coercive armed
force….and to not shy-away, either, from acknowledging (however ruefully) the
frequently harmful (to designated, usually-colorful, ‘others’) uses to which it is
put by its owner/operators….even when, on-paper at-least, these are supposed
to be “we the people.”  This candor, however, is not much welcome among the
faithful, either.

Even so, it’s maybe better, no matter how much they might resent it, that the
true-believers be reminded occasionally of the unpleasant fact that the blunt
force trauma brought down upon the heads of “Maxwell”‘s targets-of-
opportunism was no less lethal just because he used a “silver
hammer”....BANG-BANG! 

HokaHey!

Report this
JDmysticDJ's avatar

By JDmysticDJ, July 16, 2011 at 11:41 am Link to this comment

Tao Walker

My friend, I do not dislike you, I admire certain aspects of your spirit. I’m aware that my like, or dislike, of you has no significance to you, just as your like, or dislike, of me, has little significance to me. We both seem to give more importance to our arguments than issues of like or dislike. Your animus can not be concealed, and it is understandable, but it has clouded your thinking.

Your idiosyncratic rhetoric is hard to decipher until one realizes that you are simply saying the same thing over and over again, with minor semantic changes in idiosyncratic rhetoric. As an analogy I’ll proffer that you have painted your ”SELF” into a corner, believing that the only solution to your dilemma is more paint.

Report this
Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, July 16, 2011 at 7:40 am Link to this comment

ITW and JDmysticDJ—Part of the problem you two have in dealing with the question I raised is your indulgence of the ‘No True Scotsman’ fallacy.  In the case of government, if it does something we don’t like, you say it’s just a case of bad government, an aberration.

However, my thinking about government starts with observation in daily life and in history.  The United States government, for example, has engaged in numerous military operations involving the deaths of millions against people who were not attacking it: since World War 2, twenty or thirty countries, including of course Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Yemen, Libya, Lebanon, Nicaragua, Panama, and so on.  (I’m omitting the employment of violent proxies, as in Guatemala.)  As we’ve just observed in the last few years, a change in parties and a change in personnel doesn’t change the policy.  If you look back to the beginning of the 20th century, you’ll see dozens of other minor wars now generally forgotten.  We don’t see attacks on only foreigners; domestically, the U.S. engaged in Prohibition, the Drug War, and various Red Scares, unprovoked attacks on its own mostly harmless citizens.  If you go back to the 19th century, the scene gets really bloody: not just the Civil War, but slavery-Jim Crow-race war, the extermination of the Indians, the theft of huge tracts of land for the benefit of capitalists (mostly those owning railroads).  So, in spite of the very high degree of formal liberalism in American political institutions, we observe an almost continuous history of criminal violence which is going on right now.

Here, I’ve focused only on the United States.  The history of other states is generally worse.

So how do you deal with this?  You say, ‘Oh, that’s just bad government—good government is hunky-dory.’  So that’s your version of doublethink.  I don’t think that’s a very good explanation of constantly repeated events; I’m surprised you’re so satisfied with it.

But I’m glad you like Weber, anyway.  The concept of the Gewaltmonopol is a start to some actual thinking—maybe.

Report this

By TAO Walker, July 16, 2011 at 6:49 am Link to this comment

The extended discussion here about the nature, purposes, and actual effects of
“government” (or “governance”) is so far limited almost entirely to only its those
things relative to the domesticated Humans who institute it,  and who are
subject to its operations….be those operations/effects (according to the always
relativistic “value judgements” of those doing the discussing) benign,
malevolent, or merely ‘administrative.’  This obsessively homo centric viewpoint
is, however, illustrative (and symptomatic) of the severe organic dysfunction
ailing a virtual subspecies unable to get beyond the truly puny CONcerns of its
own immediate need to satisfy its comfort-and CONvenience addictions….with
all the degenerative CONsequences of the illness making-up the ever-present
‘backdrop’ against which such “self”-referential exercises-in-futility as the
instant discourse are taking-place.

Here in Indian Country, the essential nature of anything (including
“government” and its mirror-image “corporate entity” twin) is seen (and felt and
in all ways sensed) in its actual effects on The Whole Natural Living
Arrangement of our Mother Earth….of which us surviving Free Wild Persons and
Peoples remain (unlike our artificially isolated tame Sisters and Brothers, at-
least in the muddled mind of so many of ‘em) an inseparable component.  It is,
in-fact, their monomanic ‘devotion’ to their “self” and their ‘kind’ and the
tormenting retro-viral “SELF” they all idolize and whose purposes they serve
(witlessly or otherwise), which is even now bringing down upon them all the
“evils” complained-about so incessantly among them….again, of course,
according to the particular distortions in ‘the eye’ of this, that, or another
‘beholder.’

What most of those carrying-on the present ‘argument’ seem rather carefully to
be avoiding is coming-to-grips with the ultimately inescapable fact that mere
‘instruments’ (like “governments”/“corporations”) remain inert and without
effect until put-together and put-to-use by people.  They are not, nor can they
be in-and-of-themselves, either “good” or “bad” (as Schrodinger’s “cat” can be
neither “dead” nor “alive”) until brought ought of “the box” and introduced into
our Whole Living Arrangement (including that tiny bubble of it encapsulated in
the virtual world-‘o’-hurt encysting the “civilization” disease syndrome.  So it is
only in Persons and Peoples where any “good”-ness can reside at-all….or NOT.

That’s why our Ancestors went to such trouble to pass down to us their hard-
earned knowledge about the need to get-over the “self,” if those infected by it
want to avoid the “SELF”-inflicted extinction even now overtaking them and
their ‘world’....why some of their precious attention was given to having “good”-
ness be an innate attribute of Humankind generally, and not just an occasional
occurrence dependent upon how The Wind is blowing.     

Hokahey!

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, July 16, 2011 at 6:32 am Link to this comment

I believe your philosophical hatred of government causes you not to see the real threat to our freedom and welfare, nor the reality that our government is the only power that can protect us from the real threat to our freedom and welfare. Is our current government protecting us from this threat? Our current government is conflicted, some in our government are endeavoring to serve the interests of “We the People” others in our government are serving the interests of the few who are the real threat to our freedom and welfare, and yes, there are “contradictions” in our government.
*********

Bravo, JD! When people fear they cannot get protection they create street gangs and militias, or other de facto power brokers who inevitably deal in violence.

Your identification of the mis-reading and mis-interpreting of Weber is equally astute.  It’s as easy to mis-read he assertion that government has the only legitimate use of force as tanks in the street rather than police subduing rapist, arsonists, drunk drivers and muggers. 

Similarly, Malcolm X was misunderstood when his phrase was shortened to “By any means necessary”, leaving out that he put it as:

“Our objective is complete freedom, justice and equality by any means necessary.”

Compare this phrase by Malcolm to this one:

“That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. “

or this one:

“But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security.

Of course they sound the same as Malcolm’s phrase. And, of course, they are direct quotes from the Declaration of Independence.

Mis-understood language is the enemy of freedom and progress.

Report this
JDmysticDJ's avatar

By JDmysticDJ, July 16, 2011 at 3:41 am Link to this comment

Anarcissie

Am I misunderstanding you or are you misunderstanding Weber. “Legitimated monopoly of coercive force”. As I understand it, Weber proposed that the state was an entity that successfully claimed, “Monopoly on the legitimate use of violence”.

Apparently Weber had his own concept of good governance:

“After the First World War, Max Weber was among the founders of the liberal German Democratic Party. He also ran unsuccessfully for a seat in parliament and served as advisor to the committee that drafted the ill-fated democratic Weimar Constitution of 1919.”

“It was Weber who began the studies of bureaucracy and whose works led to the popularisation of this term. Many aspects of modern public administration go back to him and a classic, hierarchically organised civil service of the Continental type is called “Weberian civil service”. As the most efficient and rational way of organising, bureaucratisation for Weber was the key part of the rational-legal authority and furthermore, he saw it as the key process in the ongoing rationalisation of the Western society.”

“[Weber]defended the provisions for emergency presidential powers that became Article 48 of the Weimar Constitution. These provisions were later used by Adolf Hitler to subvert the rest of the constitution and institute rule by decree, allowing his regime to suppress opposition and gain dictatorial powers.”

Based on my limited knowledge of Weber I do not condemn him, he, according to my understanding, was a progressive thinker, or “proggie” as you like to say. I’m sure that Weber would have been strongly opposed to Hitler’s subversion of the Weimar Constitution. My final opinion of Weber is that he was just another German intellectual, easily misunderstood, and prone to being misinterpreted by pseudo-intellectuals who distorted his thinking, and opportunistically cited his works to justify their demented views on government, I’ll cite you as an example of that sort.

Report this
JDmysticDJ's avatar

By JDmysticDJ, July 16, 2011 at 3:24 am Link to this comment

Regarding our government you have written that it is, “big, intrusive, all-encompassing.”  Big as compared to what, intrusive in what respects, all-encompassing? 

The top 400 “earners” in this country “earn” over a trillion dollars annually. There are nearly 3 million “earners” in this country who have assets greater than a million dollars. Those top 400 ”earn” more than the combined earnings of 150 million “lesser” Americans.

Which countries have the highest/lowest tax burdens?
   
Denmark has the highest tax burden, closely followed by Sweden. The Danish tax burden was 48.2% in 2009, closely followed by Sweden at 46.4%. Austria, Belgium, Finland, France, Italy and Norway also have tax burdens over 40%.
   
Mexico, with a 17.5% tax to GDP ratio, and Chile, with 18.2%, have the lowest tax to GDP ratios amongst OECD countries, followed by the U.S. 24.0% and Turkey 24.6%.

Big seems to be a relative concept. In terms of intrusive tax policies the U.S. ranks 31st least intrusive among OECD nations. Perhaps you need to define what you mean by intrusive. Is it that you believe that all government laws and regulations are intrusive? Yes, I believe what Hedges recounts in this article is unforgivably intrusive and an example of bad government, but such government activities do not prove that government can not be good.

What do you mean by all-encompassing? In order for me not to believe you are making a bold assertion that is a distortion of reality; you’ll have to offer some evidence that governments can only be the tyranny you assert. As it stands now, and based on your assertions, I must conclude that you are an anti-government fanatic who believes that good governance is impossible.

Your fears, are misdirected. I believe your philosophical hatred of government causes you not to see the real threat to our freedom and welfare, nor the reality that our government is the only power that can protect us from the real threat to our freedom and welfare. Is our current government protecting us from this threat? Our current government is conflicted, some in our government are endeavoring to serve the interests of “We the People” others in our government are serving the interests of the few who are the real threat to our freedom and welfare, and yes, there are “contradictions” in our government. You, with your anti-government philosophy of Anarchy, foolishly seek to diminish the power of our government and its ability to protect us from the tyranny of the few. Democracy can only be as good as the people who make up that democracy, and people such as you are a detriment to good government and the effectiveness of democracy.

You write:

“What I don’t understand is love and admiration for the government on the part of people who are nominally leftists, who are supposed to favor peace, freedom and equality, all three of which government directly contradicts.”

The idea that government, as an entity, can only contradict peace, freedom, and equality, is astonishingly stupid. Bad governments do not promote peace, freedom, and equality to be sure, but to assert that government can not promote peace, freedom, and equality is sheer stupidity and if such thinking were to become the norm, chaos and Anarchy would be the result. Now I ask you, based on the historical record, what arises out of Anarchy?

Do not delude yourself. You, of your own, are not a threat to government. You are only an impotent iconoclast who stupidly serves the interests of the tyrannical few; the tyrannical few who if they have their way, will assure bad government, which would please you because it would validate your anti-government fanaticism and hide your obvious neurosis.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, July 15, 2011 at 9:57 pm Link to this comment

I can understand the theory that unless there is a government, worse things than the government will come to pass (although I don’t necessarily agree with the theory). 
******************

You are welcome to your views but the alternative is the nightmare of “Mad Max”, “Pottersville” and the machine-gunning in “Back to The Future Part II”.  That should be blatantly obvious.  We’ve seen it more in reality in, of course, Iraq following the “liberation” and in Afghanistan.  Anarchy and chaos, deadly chaos.

*****
I can understand rightists, who are the party of authority, power, private wealth and social status, favoring government.  What I don’t understand is love and admiration for the government on the part of people who are nominally leftists, who are supposed to favor peace, freedom and equality, all three of which government directly contradicts.
*******

This is based on the assumption that all government must be inherently bad, in fact, evil.  If one believes that to be true, then your logic is correct.

But if the assumption is NOT valid, then the logic doesn’t hold.  And I think it doesn’t.  There is no real party of the Left anymore, not when “moderate” Democrats are more right-wing in ACTUAL policies than Richard Nixon EVER was.  Nixon, if he maintained his 1969-1974 views and policies would be drummed out of the GOP, made a pariah.

(of course, such exercises are pointless as old Trick Dick, always the politician, would have adopted similar lines to Boehner and McConnell, not stuck to the policies he signed into law back then.)

To deny that FDR didn’t rebuild this nation, didn’t create new and bold infrastructure, didn’t create needed regs and safety nets is simply to deny the facts of history, of “Good Government” at its best, as men like John Adams intended it to me.

I get calls for money to the Dems all the time. I hang up before they even get started.  Yes, I’ll hold my nose and vote Democratic, cowards and spineless jellyfish that they are (Oh, Alan Grayson, where are you now that we need you?) 

Yeah, my choices suck:
1) Do I want cheesy Democrats?
2) Crooked, neo-fascist Bill of Rights ending Republicans?
3) A nation too weak to prevent takeover by China, Russia or the wealthy Arab states, none of whom even FAKE having the freedoms we have?
4) a “3rd Party” which is really just a choice for 2 and/or 3).

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, July 15, 2011 at 9:43 pm Link to this comment

Anarcissie:
I’m not sure where to start. Some of what you say makes sense, but other parts seems to be based on erroneous assumptions:

ITW—Just to be clear, when I use the word ‘government’ I’m not talking about rules, traditions, or customs preserved and enforced more or less equally by everybody in the community, as is supposed to have been the case with our tribal hunter-gatherer ancestors.  I’m talking about an actual institution, an ongoing set of people, their relationships, their equipment, their power, and their beliefs, whose role in the community is to act as the ‘legitimated monopoly of coercive force’. (Here’s I’m sort of translating Weber, who called the government the ‘Gewaltmonopol’.  ‘Gewalt’ is sometimes translated as ‘violence’ but according to my dictionaries it does not carry the same connotation of illegitimacy—it simply means overwhelming power.)
******************

Here’s my first problem: It seems to have a very touchy-feely view of tribal leadership when such leadership is rarely anything of the kind, and is mainly “King of The Hill”.  Only through deep traditions that have the force of written law even in non-literary are they overcome.  I do not see the line you seem to see between the gentle de facto self-rule and the violence-prone dominance…I see simply a formalization of the former into the latter.  Plus, I think anthropologists may well disagree with the benign view of “tribal” (for lack of an immediate better word) leadership.

*****
Actually, in most liberal states individuals have the right to use force to defend themselves or someone else from direct attack, but only the government has the power to initiate and pursue the use of force in order to achieve its political ends.
*******

Now I’m confused.  Are you saying that this force is used against its own members or against outsiders?  If it’s used domestically, it’s not a liberal state. Period.  If it’s used externally, if it’s used for ANYTHING other than ensuring the safety of the nation (as Sun-Tzu) taught, it will lead to disaster.  We see this in our fatally flawed enterprises in Viet Nam, Iraq, and, now, Afghanistan.  Since societies ARE first created for mutual self-defense, this ensuring of the nation’s security against the violence of outsiders IS not only a legitimate role, it’s the most important.

*****
Historically, this institution grows out of mafias, tyrannies and slave empires, often justified by divine-right theories.  In other words, it’s been a way of ordering raw violence to make in more efficient and less dangerous for whoever is in charge—the ruling class who staff the government and other state institutions like corporations.  With the rise of capitalism and the bourgeoisie, it became important to soft-pedal the force business, but it’s obviously still there and still in play.
******

Here we are less in disagreement. A history of Britain is nothing less than a series of mafia bosses.  Even the great “Odyssey” has the “heroes” happily burning towns to the ground, raping all the women and enslaving them, and killing the men and children.  The Church, which first was to pass the word of Jesus’ message of love, peace and forgiveness was totally corrupted as early as the Nicene Council in 325 c.e. into one of absolute unquestioned power for the Church, making it, for the next 1500 years, into just another one of the mafia thugs.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, July 15, 2011 at 9:24 pm Link to this comment

radson, July 15 at 2:52 pm Link to this comment

The Windy Guy is a pupil/disciple of Ayn Rand and Hobbes but at the same time he’s one hell of a Socialist although of the Judaic version.
******

Amazing! In less than 30 words you’ve demonstrated your virtually TOTAL ignorance of Rand, Hobbes, Socialism AND Judaism!

That must be some kind of dismal record.

Report this
Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, July 15, 2011 at 6:08 pm Link to this comment

ITW—Just to be clear, when I use the word ‘government’ I’m not talking about rules, traditions, or customs preserved and enforced more or less equally by everybody in the community, as is supposed to have been the case with our tribal hunter-gatherer ancestors.  I’m talking about an actual institution, an ongoing set of people, their relationships, their equipment, their power, and their beliefs, whose role in the community is to act as the ‘legitimated monopoly of coercive force’. (Here’s I’m sort of translating Weber, who called the government the ‘Gewaltmonopol’.  ‘Gewalt’ is sometimes translated as ‘violence’ but according to my dictionaries it does not carry the same connotation of illegitimacy—it simply means overwhelming power.)  Actually, in most liberal states individuals have the right to use force to defend themselves or someone else from direct attack, but only the government has the power to initiate and pursue the use of force in order to achieve its political ends.

Historically, this institution grows out of mafias, tyrannies and slave empires, often justified by divine-right theories.  In other words, it’s been a way of ordering raw violence to make in more efficient and less dangerous for whoever is in charge—the ruling class who staff the government and other state institutions like corporations.  With the rise of capitalism and the bourgeoisie, it became important to soft-pedal the force business, but it’s obviously still there and still in play.

I can understand the theory that unless there is a government, worse things than the government will come to pass (although I don’t necessarily agree with the theory).  I can understand rightists, who are the party of authority, power, private wealth and social status, favoring government.  What I don’t understand is love and admiration for the government on the part of people who are nominally leftists, who are supposed to favor peace, freedom and equality, all three of which government directly contradicts.

Report this

By radson, July 15, 2011 at 2:52 pm Link to this comment

The Windy Guy is a pupil/disciple of Ayn Rand and Hobbes but at the same time he’s one hell of a Socialist although of the Judaic version.

Report this

By GradyLeeHoward, July 15, 2011 at 12:06 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Can’t be a member, you won’t send me an e-mail.
Your server can remember my name and email but I am
not a member.
Truthdig techniques illustrate “good government” for
me.
It is said by pundits that people gravitate on the
web to the sites where they find a political home and
no disagreement. That is another big lie. Can’t you
see how sites choose their posters. Look at how
certain names blow all their wind on here without
moderation while others are censored at every
comment.
Maybe we have come to a time when Barack Obama and
even Rick Santorum can choose their supporters
(fans/followers)and exclude anyone who displeases
their primary funders. Realize that most political segregation results from management procedures and not from open choice.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, July 15, 2011 at 11:05 am Link to this comment

You don’t seem to understand that the fundamental fact of government is at its most basic level one person holding a loaded gun to another’s head, even while you observe it and complain about various instances of it.  How do you all manage the necessary doublethink?
************

Because that’s the definition of tyranny, not of government.  So you confuse tyranny with government, partnerships with socialism.  What’s next? Telling us what a great football team the NY Yankees are?

That’s absurd.  “Government” is what happens when individuals get together.  It’s that or violent chaos (sometimes both).

You seem to lack understanding of the basic principle that your freedom to swing your fist doesn’t extend far enough to include hitting my nose.  And I have very few ways to enforce that:
1) I can hit you back harder
2) I can run away
3) I can pay you extortion not to hit me
4) I can call the government (ie, the police)

ALL societies have government. Period.  And always have.  Government is merely a word for how we try to get along with each other. It can be tyrannical, like Hitler or Stalin, or even living in a gang-ruled neighborhood (the gangs become the government, isn’t THAT a joy?)

Government can be as simple as the rules children have to decide how to take care of an aging parent (a topic fresh in my mind). It can be a neighborhood watch association, or a rich man’s country club board of trustees.

If you want no government you have to live as a hermit far from anyone else so no one has any impact on your life and you have none on theirs.

Meanwhile, if you live in my neighborhood and want to raise a billion cockroaches in your yard for fun’n'profit, I have NO problem with sic’ing the town government on you make you stop so that I don’t get infested with the vermin.  It’s just that simple.

Report this
Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, July 15, 2011 at 9:03 am Link to this comment

JDmysticDJ and ITW—I am familiar, of course, with the concept of ‘good government’.  What I’m asking is how you fans of big, intrusive, all-encompassing government deal with the obvious and persistent facts of ‘active, lethal evil’, not just in ‘our’ foreign policy but in many domestic policies and programs, such as the Drug War and the protection and subsidization of our thuggy kleptocrats.  Class kills people, you know.  When it doesn’t kill them, it stunts their lives.

I thought the video games thing was a small and therefore possibly manageable fragment of the general problem—the ironic contrast between dewy-eyed faith in the government’s coercive force on one hand and the possible exercise by a small percentage of teen-age gamers of random coercive force, a.k.a. ‘violence’, on the other.  So far I haven’t seen a thoughtful, intelligent reply, just huffing and puffing and chortling.  (Don’t feel called upon to reenter that discussion; it’s just an example.)

The old liberal idea was that government was a necessary lesser evil because the alternatives were worse.  Since it was intrinsically evil, however, its powers had to be carefully circumscribed.  When we observe actual, living governments, we can see how evil they are.  Yet you all persist in believing in a fantasy of good government, much like the fantasy of the good king, the benevolent dictator.  You don’t seem to understand that the fundamental fact of government is at its most basic level one person holding a loaded gun to another’s head, even while you observe it and complain about various instances of it.  How do you all manage the necessary doublethink?

While it is true that I am cynical and pessimistic, I’ve certainly suggested alternatives, which you haven’t bothered to read or consider.  Let’s not rehash them now.  I’d much rather you described how you deal with your contradictions.

Report this

By TAO Walker, July 15, 2011 at 8:56 am Link to this comment

“Government,” of course, does not of itself DO anything….anymore than does
any other mere ‘instrument.’  It is, after-all, nothing but a particular kind of
institutional set-up (tricked-out with whatever ‘hard-,’ ‘soft-,’ and ‘wet-ware’ is
deemed necessary and/or desirable to effect its rather monomanically singular
purpose), and subject entirely to the usages it’s put-to by its actual
owner/operators.  Neither is “government (as such)....a set of rules.”  It is a
device by which some sets of rules (among many) are ‘enforced’....again, by its
CONtrollers, and upon those subject to their CONtrol.  This probably explains
how come the wannabe ‘ruling’ class is always so hell-bent on selling (and
always as “heaven-sent”) one or another of the CON-TRAPtions to those they
would rule-over.

The mere fact that Peoples CONned into playing-around with any of the
damned things have invariably found it necessary to hedge the inherently lethal
(and corrupting) mechanism about with all manner of “checks and balances,”
ought to offer a significant clue to its essential nature.  The additional tendency
to dress their ‘robot’ up in ideologically and/or philosophically tailored ‘robes,’
meant to give it a more “human” countenance, might also serve to suggest
there is something underneath all that ‘whole-cloth’ that is not particularly
pleasant or reassuring to look-at.

This Indian has no particular ‘bone’ to pick with those true-believers in
“government” here defending so adamantly their ‘faith.’  They’ve only ever seen
it from the heavily restricted CONfines of their captivity, after-all.

Looked-at in-context, however, instead of only as CONtext, this specific sort of
thing that goes by the (too often habitually ‘hallowed’, even, maybe especially,
by those who dislike its effects the most) name of “government” shows sides of
its nature quite often kept carefully hidden (by its owner/operators) from their
fellah ‘n’ gal domesticates whom they mean to ‘own’ and ‘operate’ upon.  The
frequently angry resentment, among the faithful, at having that “dark-side”
exposed to them (even with mere words here in the ephemeral reaches of
cyberspace), is no-doubt akin to the feelings those loyal to ‘the emperor’ had
when his not-at-all-awesome-or-edifying nakedness was remarked-upon by
a child who wouldn’t participate in the up-to-that-moment-universally-
indulged-in CONtrary pretension.

Some instituted apparatus of “enforcement” is no more necessary to the
fulfillment of the given Organic Function of Humanity (as a component of Her
immune system) in the Living Arrangement of our Mother Earth, than can
Hearts be compelled to beat at the point of a gun….which is why those
succumbing to its siren-song temptations inevitably bring down upon their
“self’ and their ‘kind’ one Hell of a lot more harm than good….since sooner-
than-later some fool will dead-certainly (if only, like certain politicians, to
‘prove’ their ‘point’) ‘pull-the-trigger.’

HokaHey!

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, July 15, 2011 at 7:38 am Link to this comment

All governments are ultimately a set of rules for people to interact.  Those rules can be fair and just, or cruel and capricious, designed to promote the general welfare, or a way for the greedy few to get the best food, shelter and sex with the least work.

JD’s not “simple”, nor is his argument. Government CAN do great good, or great evil.  It depends on which government a people allows.  For the last 30 years we have allowed our government, with its checks and balances to be totally destroyed by the GOP while the Democrats either actively participated, or sat on their hands and did nothing.

What’s that quote that all Evil requires to succeed is for good people to let it?

(I hope this is the last chunk)

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, July 15, 2011 at 7:37 am Link to this comment

Government is simply a way for people to interact with each other. It can be simple thuggery, with the cruelest, craziest and most dangerous feeding off others (until they leave or kill him). It can be buried in ritual to ameliorate the WORST of pure power grabs.  It can be an attempt to create a mutual defense society, against other “wild and free people” that may be democratic or autocratic.  “Government” is a condo association, a school board, the leadership of the PTA, or Rotary, or a union.

(sorry for the multiple posts but it won’t accept it unless I break it into these chunks. No idea why but this has happened in other threads to other people as well)

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, July 15, 2011 at 7:35 am Link to this comment

The Iroquois Nation, from my home state of New York and others in the region, developed a form of government, with such sophisticated checks and balances that Benjamin Franklin studied it and proposed similar measures to help create the Great Compromise that allowed our Constitution to happen

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, July 15, 2011 at 7:35 am Link to this comment

Our Founding Fathers understood that power corrupts all who touch it and tried their damnedest to create a system that could bleed that corruption off and counter-balance it (Thanks to the Iroquois Nation).

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, July 15, 2011 at 7:30 am Link to this comment

Those who live their lives as nomadic wanderers in Australia’s deserts, the most “primitive” and “savage” of all the indigenous Australians, who are fully naked and rarely come in contact with each other, have rules and rituals for handling contact between people.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, July 15, 2011 at 7:26 am Link to this comment

I have been at the wrong end of JD’s angry key-board at times, I almost feel sorry for Tao Walker as JD is slicing and dicing all of TW’s arguments like a fine sushi chef.  Almost.
But not quite. TW comes back with MORE nonsense about how government is the antithesis of “free and wild people”.  Every single one of the indigenous peoples in North and South America had government at some level, as do all people.

Report this

By GradyLeeHoward, July 15, 2011 at 6:54 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Seems like I was delisted from Truthdig membership
and had to re-register. I’ll check that e-mail later.
Lisa Simione is correct that Truthdig informs us
about events not in the MSM, or overseas news or at
Democracy Now. This conversation today should not be
about “good government.”  It was Obama’s FBI scooping
up the 2008 RNC protest organizers.

Right now I am a 2012 DNC protest organizer. I have
chronic illnesses and just got off dialysis. I don’t
have $35K liquid to bail myself out of jail. My arms
might break if they were forced behind my back. And
my wife has a shiny new pump shotgun in our bedroom
closet because we have had two suspicious break-ins.
Naturally I feel some paranoia. But they do say that
if the FBI is out to get you then paranoia might be a
natural reaction. I have learned to keep my archives
off premises.

Now we will just have to sit and wait to see whether
they break down Chris Hedges door or mine first. Does
affiliating with Truthdig leave them a breadcrumb
trail?

Report this

By TAO Walker, July 14, 2011 at 9:05 pm Link to this comment

“JDmysticDJ” has suddenly lost his faith in “good government,” apparently, and
now prays instead for (Or is it to?) something he calls good “governance.” 
Meanwhile, he tries to pull-off here the same cheap trick that the tormenting
“SELF” (which he and his virtual ‘kind’ virtually worship) has played on them all: 
Free Wild Nature bad, sickening suffocating “civilization” good.  Obviously he
does this (as do nearly all of them) in the forlorn hope it will let them feel
(temporarily, at-least ) a little less troubled by the already severely degraded
(but steadily worsening) condition he and his fellah ‘n’ gal domesticates’
CONdition is in.

He has though, and at some length, pretty well covered all the CONceits the
captive peoples depend-on to CONsole their own too-precious “self,” and ‘one’
anothers’, in the shared misery of the “civilization” disease.  The lengths they
must go to, justifying, excusing, rationalizing, and apologizing-for the
depredations of the disease process ought to offer at-least a hint that
something is fundamentally amiss in the virtual world-o’-hurt.

It is going to get (much sooner than later) to where even taking their chances
among us “predators” will look a helluva lot better than the dead-certain DEAD
END looming even now over them and their disintegrating make-believe
eCONomic CONstruct….much to the chagrin of their ruthlessly possessive
“SELF” and all its little spin-offs.

HokaHey!

Report this
JDmysticDJ's avatar

By JDmysticDJ, July 14, 2011 at 5:54 pm Link to this comment

RE: Anarcissie, July 14 at 12:30 pm

JDmysticDJ, July 14 at 12:01 pm:

‘... I dreamed last night that Carlos Montes stopped me on the street and asked me to help him combat the abuses of government. I replied, “Screw that, I’ve abandoned civilization.” ...’


Well, it’s very curious.  Truthdig is full of bitter (and well-founded) complaints about the government—we’re not talking about failure to do the good here, but active, lethal evil—and at the same time if not in the same place utter constant professions of belief in the goodness of government, and a desire to add to it with higher taxes and added regulations, if not new and extended powers (see the violent video games thread).  How do you all put these two themes together?  Or rather, how do you keep them apart?


Anarcissie

Hopefully it will be noticed that the above comment from me was sarcasm.

I notice that you don’t offer any solution here, you only make observations and ask questions here. That does not surprise me I’m familiar with your chronic negativity. Never fear, I will reply to your comments and answer your questions, but I’ll begin by asking you a few questions.

What do you suppose motivates Hedges and others to post their articles here on truthdig? Do they do so to motivate and inform people regarding issues that need to be corrected by good government or better government if you prefer, or do they do so to fuel the nihilism of nihilists? I believe that their posting here goes beyond mere occupational necessities, and that they seek to initiate or fuel change, and that fueling negativity and nihilism would be anathema to them. Forgive me, or not, but fueling negativity is in no way constructive, and the benefit of constant angry complaints, well founded or not, escapes me, and this is what I see from many who comment here on truthdig.

From my perspective, “active lethal evil” is the reality of our foreign policy, but I most certainly do not believe those who currently direct our foreign policy believe their actions are evil, their rationale, I can only believe, is that they are doing good, but this rationale of doing good is being seriously questioned now, not just by the perennial opponents of war and violence, but by our policy makers as well. There seems to be a shift away from bad governance to better governance occurring at the present time by my appraisal, and the side of the political spectrum that is advocating that shift is clear to all of the politically informed, and only unnoticed by the uninformed habitual complainers, by my appraisal.

After the 2006 mid-term elections, and the democrats failure to bring the Bush administration to task for their insane policies and cruelties, further aggravated by Obama’s openly stated policy thinking during the 2008 Primary and Presidential election regarding Afghanistan and the war on terror,  I became a nay sayer, and a person full of negativity where the Democratic Party was concerned, but I came to believe that somewhat better government was preferable to the available alternative, I continue to believe in such a way, and I’m confounded by people who can not see the logic of this thinking, I can only assume that they are uninformed regarding the very real dichotomy between Left and Right or that they are of the I hate government perspective regardless of dichotomy. There is a clear dichotomy between Democrats and Republicans regarding domestic issues, and I can only assume that the I hate government people hate government so much that they are not following what is, and has been occurring, in the Halls of Congress, and across the nation.

Report this
JDmysticDJ's avatar

By JDmysticDJ, July 14, 2011 at 5:29 pm Link to this comment

I also object strongly to demagoguery; exaggeration and falsehood designed to serve a dialectic. You are a frequent commenter here at truthdig, we have exchanged comments before and surely you are familiar with my perspective, are you referring to me when you write of people who, “…place utter constant professions of belief in the goodness of government…” “Utter” and “constant” are very descriptive adjectives. Let me suggest that there may ne a misunderstanding here, I do believe that government has the ability to good, and I also believe that government is a necessity, but I most certainly do not believe that government always does good, hopefully you are not implying that I believe government always does good.

I have grown tired of expounding about the historical examples of evil governments. To me the most instructive example of government becoming evil is the Third Reich in Germany. I believe that the rise of the Third Reich was facilitated by a universal hatred of the Weimar socialist government in Germany, and that that hatred came from nearly all the extremes of political perspectives. Obviously there were additional difficulties and cultural problems that resulted in a Nazi rise to power, but I believe that this universal hatred of the Weimar government along with a general moral malaise greatly facilitated the Nazi rise to power. I fear a hatred of government, its not a phobia or a paranoia, based on the historical record I feel this fear is well founded. You are, I feel certain, aware of the insane act of violence that precipitated the First World War.

I am surprised by your comments regarding higher taxes and more government regulation. I have not noticed this side of you before. You echo the complaints of Tea Partiers. Higher taxes on the rich are needed so that the government can stimulate markets, increase employment, there-by increasing tax revenues in order to alleviate government deficits, and to facilitate a more equitable distribution of wealth. It’s a tried and true economic formula, such economic policies have always been successful when implemented by the Left, and they have always been obstructed by the Right. This economic philosophy is referred to as demand side economics. Right-wing economists, with the collusion of some Democrats and nearly all Republicans have been practicing supply side , as opposed to demand side economics for the last 30 years and the results of supply side economics are evident.

Government is the only entity that can restrain capitalist excesses, the recent economic collapse resulted from lack of government regulation and even the most outspoken proponents of deregulation during the deregulation madness have admitted that those deregulation policies were flawed; flawed because of “Fundamentally flawed” economic philosophy. “Shrinking the size and scope of government power “will give moneyed interests free hand, and that hand will not be “Unseen” it will be painfully obvious.

The supreme courts ruling on violent video games was governed by ideology, this Supreme Court has clearly demonstrated that it will rule in favor of business over the interests of the people on every issue, along ideological lines.  This only reinforces my belief that Democrats are preferable to Republicans.

To me, my biggest source of dissatisfaction with our current government is concerned with our foreign policies, and restating my strenuous objection to these policies would require another lengthy post which is beyond the scope of this comment, I have engaged in lengthy and impassioned debate here on truthdig regarding our insane foreign policies, but allowing Republicans to take power is no solution, it will only exacerbate and escalate those policies.

Report this

By radson, July 14, 2011 at 2:58 pm Link to this comment

Anarcissie:You’re not quite ‘there’yet are you ,and how Socialist is Socialist for You in this unwinding
scheme of things .

Report this
Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, July 14, 2011 at 12:30 pm Link to this comment

JDmysticDJ, July 14 at 12:01 pm:

‘... I dreamed last night that Carlos Montes stopped me on the street and asked me to help him combat the abuses of government. I replied, “Screw that, I’ve abandoned civilization.” ...’

Well, it’s very curious.  Truthdig is full of bitter (and well-founded) complaints about the government—we’re not talking about failure to do the good here, but active, lethal evil—and at the same time if not in the same place utter constant professions of belief in the goodness of government, and a desire to add to it with higher taxes and added regulations, if not new and extended powers (see the violent video games thread).  How do you all put these two themes together?  Or rather, how do you keep them apart?

Report this
JDmysticDJ's avatar

By JDmysticDJ, July 14, 2011 at 12:01 pm Link to this comment

The path stumbler is correct in saying there is no “Natural Imperative” for civilization according to his concept of the natural. Nature’s Imperatives are steeped in predation, survival of the fittest, predators and prey, apparently the path stumbler has great reverence for what can be analyzed as social Darwinism as it pertains to human existence. Perhaps I will startle and outrage the path stumbler when I assert that carnal nature is the disease and civilization is the antidote to that disease.  The path stumbler needs to cease trudging on his pilgrimage along the path of carnal nature; the sustenance along this path is meager and I fear the path stumbler will become exhausted from his pilgrimage and find himself staring with bewilderment into the starry sky on a starry starry night.

If I understand the path stumbler correctly his contention is that abandoning civilization will end the abuses which Hedges chronicles. I feel like the fictional Mr. Spock trying to exhort the path stumbler to be logical. Logic is boring, it lacks flair, and logic is not at all concerned with fanciful fantasy, unless it’s involved with identifying what is fanciful fantasy. Try logic path stumbler, its boring but it might set you on a more reasoned and steady path to a destination not of fanciful fantasy.

Now civilization can be cruel, that’s painfully obvious, just as carnal nature is cruel. Nature is naturally cruel, but civilization is cruel only when it adopts the rules of nature; predators and prey. Why is the path stumbler so condemning of civilization when civilization at its worst only mirrors the laws of nature? Again, I’ll reiterate, civilization, at its best, seeks through governance to protect us from cruelty. When civilization fails to protect, it is because governance has failed to protect.  Thus a desire for good governance, as opposed to bad governance, seems to be logical, don’t you think? Good governance seeks to protect us all, and seeks to protect us from powerful special interest groups. Has there ever been good governance? Good governance is of course a relative concept. The government of Franklin Roosevelt was far from perfect in many respects, but it was preferable to the government of Adolph Hitler, don’t you think? That according to my comprehension is a no brainer, don’t you think? I must resort to arrogance, and suggest that many people don’t think.

Now, let me examine a scenario where a universal epiphany will suddenly and simultaneously occur, we will all of us turn away from civilization, and the predators will stop preying, and the prayers will stop praying their prayers of vanity and superiority, we, all of us in the world, will abandon civilization, beat our swords into plowshares and our spears into pruning hooks, we’ll grow veggies and become vegans, allowing the beasts of nature to carry on with their beastly ways, all on account of our abandoning the disease of civilization… Good one, you’ve given me a laugh.

But seriously, issues of cruelty and brutality are not funny, and the goal of peaceful coexistence is of the utmost importance from a humanitarian perspective. I continue to believe that good governance can be our only path to achieving any success in respect to this desired goal.

I dreamed last night that Carlos Montes stopped me on the street and asked me to help him combat the abuses of government. I replied, “Screw that, I’ve abandoned civilization.”

Report this

By Lisa Simeone, July 14, 2011 at 10:16 am Link to this comment

By Michael Cavlan RN, July 11 at 4:02 pm
Lisa Simeone
See you in DC October 6th till ??????????????

Till as long as it takes.

Report this

By TAO Walker, July 14, 2011 at 6:48 am Link to this comment

So, unable to engage on ‘the question,’ “JDmysticDJ” resorts to a rabid outburst
of ad ‘strawmanem’ vitriol.  Unable to show any Natural Imperative for instituted
CONtrol regimes, he CONcedes this Indian’s ‘point’ that such things become
“necessary” only in the aberrant CONditions occasioned here by the wannabe
parasitic process of the “civilization” disease.

Unable to offer an example of any government apparatus anywhere at anytime
not co-opted by some “self”-selected few, and run by them for their own
exclusive benefit and to the general detriment of the “bad(ly)”-governed many,
“JDmysticDJ” gives us instead a cliche-filled virtual ‘lecture’ on the “good”
and/or “evil” of ‘moral relativism.’  Unwilling to get-over his own usurping
“self,” he suffers a particularly spectacular attack, right here in cyberspace, of
the I/ME/MY/MINE syndrome.

Were he not rendered (temporarily, let’s hope) unbalanced by the prospect of
having to see his most cherished beliefs (as he’s given them to us here, and
with which he so obviously IDentifies so completely) disintegrate before his eyes
(not because of anything this Old Man says about them, but because of their
inherent flaws), a no-doubt native honesty would otherwise compel
“JDmysticDJ” to admit that he actually knows absolutely nothing at all about this
Old Savage’s actual Person-al circumstances.  He might then get past all that
fear-ridden reflexive defensiveness, for a change, and examine his very own
half-life (as a domesticated Human) with at-least a little of the psycho-
emotional intensity he brought below to the verbal dissection of his very own
“Native American”-ized “TAO Walker” effigy.

Anyway, isn’t “....the important issue raised here by Hedges” precisely that of
vested ‘special’ interests commandeering the machinery of government (“good,”
“bad,” or indifferent) to advance a ‘private’ agenda (the unfettered, thus
cancerous, “growth” of their “global” gulag) which they feel is put at-risk
somehow by those, like Carlos Montes, who actively oppose that entirely
“SELF”-serving ‘project’?  Government, as such, after-all, (and stripped of the
“self”-satisfying CONceits of all its philosophical window dressing) is only a
“delivery system” for the application of armed force intended to compel
compliance with the will of those who CONtrol it….“OR-ELSE!”  In and of itself it
is not, nor can it be, either “good” or “bad.”  It simply is what it is….like a
hammer or a rocking-chair or a hot-air balloon.  All that really matters about it
(or should matter, anyhow, to the Human component in Her immune system),
therefore, are the actual effects of its presence and operations on The Whole
Natural Living Arrangement of our Mother Earth.

This Person suggests, based entirely on that purely biological standard, that we
will all be much better-off (again) when we’ve gotten rid of the damned
thing…..again.

HokaHey!

Report this
Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, July 14, 2011 at 4:55 am Link to this comment

I’d say the Tao Te Ching is about the irrelevance of humility.

Report this
JDmysticDJ's avatar

By JDmysticDJ, July 14, 2011 at 2:34 am Link to this comment

Tao Walker, who refers to himself as the old Savage, is not a savage at all according to accepted definition.

1. Not domesticated or cultivated; wild: savage beasts of the jungle.
2. Not civilized; barbaric: a people living in a savage state.


Synonyms: violent, unrestrained, vicious, fierce, ferocious, brutal


Tao Walker is none of the above, only arrogant and annoying, with his constant drone of idiosyncratic rhetoric of ethnic, cultural, and spiritual superiority. If Tao Walker truly values the Tao Te Ching he must know that the Tao Te Ching is about humility. The constant droning of one’s superior wisdom, superior spirituality, and superior philosophical thinking is not a characteristic of humility, nor is a constant criticism of others a sign of humility.


Tao Walker is a charlatan, and a hypocrite.


Hypocrite: a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, especially a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.

I would suggest that Tao Walker turn around and walk back down the Tao (path) away from the point where he is now.


I lack Tao Walker’s failed aspirations, my aspirations are not complicated they are simple. As an existentialist, I seek to be a force for good and I make no apology for this activist aspiration, I’m not deluded as to my potential, nor am I discouraged by my limited potential. I feel no qualms about criticizing what I perceive to be harmful; indeed I see such criticism as a moral responsibility. I have a spiritual component, but even this admission discomforts me, my spiritual inclinations are no ones business but my own, and I’m well aware that my spiritual inclinations are of no interest to anyone other than myself, but I feel no restraint from criticizing the didactic.


Good is subjective, the word good has many definitions, and I’ll suggest that good is not confined to a fixed point on a spectrum. I believe that between the opposing extremes of good and evil are many degrees, and the degrees of good are found on one end of the spectrum of good and evil, and the degrees of evil are found on the other end of that spectrum. Yes I believe in good and evil as they pertain to human behavior and activities, and it’s unfathomable to me when I hear people dispute the existence of good and evil, or assert that that which I perceive to be evil is actually good. I’m quick to assert pathology and fascist tendencies and I feel no remorse in doing so e.g. Ayn Rand was a sociopath and all like minded people are psychopathic, that is my firm conviction and I will not be dissuaded from believing so. This belief is the essence of my belief system.

Report this
JDmysticDJ's avatar

By JDmysticDJ, July 14, 2011 at 2:22 am Link to this comment

Good government is a relative concept, and good government is subject to personal bias based on philosophical belief, but government is a necessity of civilization and anyone who believes otherwise is a fool. Civilization is not free from conflict between good and evil, nor is an “uncivilized” society free from conflict between good and evil. Civilizations attempt to codify good and evil through governance with the intention of restraining perceived evil and promoting perceived good. Frequently there is a conflict between classes within civilizations but equality between individuals and classes has been the aspiration of enlightened modern civilization. It is my belief that a good government is a government that promotes equality and restrains undue privilege. Our Nation is in conflict at home and abroad, and the conflict is chaotic, proof of that contention is made manifest by the existence of this forum , and a further indication of chaos is illustrated by the conflicting opinions found here. At some point chaos devolves into dysfunction. Many here believe that our current government is dysfunctional in terms of social justice and equity, I am among those who believe that we are enveloped in dysfunction, but I do not blame government for that dysfunction, I blame bad government for that dysfunction, and I blame our current bad government on external influences and not on the concept of government itself, and that is why I attempt to define and advocate for good government. I will “anguish” over “good government vs. not so good government,” and only a fool living in a “SELF” encapsulated vacuum would suggest that such considerations are “biologically meaningless.”


The path walker spews his animosity with vehemence, and couches that vehemence as humility. “Forbearance” in this instance requires no “superhuman” or “saintly qualities,” because forbearance is not desired, quite the contrary, the fraudulent path walker is not a straw effigy to be burned, he is very real in his fraudulence and hypocrisy and he is bound and determined to discredit all that does not accede to his “SELF” perceived superiority. Idiosyncratic rhetoric serves to conceal his animus, but that animus can not be concealed from those who have eyes that see.


My only regret is that the important issue raised here by Hedges has been obfuscated in lieu of “SELF” important egomania and neurotic narcissism on the part of some.

Report this

By bogi666, July 14, 2011 at 1:41 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

c.hanna, great comments. The USA has been recolonized, which is what the “special relationship” means, recolonization providing the cannon fodder, weapons, money for graft and corruption. This has been achieved by the “special relationship” between the USA and the UK banksters. The City of London banksters, which answers to no one, have their tentacles worldwide due to centuries of experience. The Federal Reserve is meant to include the USA banking system with the City of London banksters. The Federal Reserve is a Rube Goldberg system which privatized the banking system. The Fed, owned by the 12 private banks that are “too big too fail” sells their fiat money for interest bearing U.S.Treasury bonds which guarantee’s interest income for the banksters. The advent of the income tax in 1916 and subsequent withholding taxes, the forced contributions by taxing labor ensure the Federal Reserve bond holders payment is guaranteed.

Report this

By TAO Walker, July 13, 2011 at 7:12 pm Link to this comment

The near superhuman forbearance of “JDmysticDJ” has been truly awesome to
behold….if only in we’ll-have-to-take-his-word-for-it retrospect.  Now he’s
gone and ruined that saintly image with a pointless assault on his own special
“TAO Walker” straw-man, all got-up as a “Native American.”  What’s more, he’s
taken this fall from grace apparently all because this Old Savage won’t climb-up
with him on his “good government” hobby horse and help him spur it toward
some admittedly never-to-be-actually-reached virtual ‘finish-line.’

To get a sense of just how far from The Tao of Humanity the “civilized” have
already strayed, by the time an obsession with “good government” kicks-in,
check out Lao Tsu’s “Tao Te Ching.”  Granted, “JDmysticDJ” and his fellah ‘n’ gal
troopers in the “good government” cavalry mean well.  It’s just that they are
unable to offer even one example of a government apparatus that (no matter
how idealistically instigated and carefully CONstructed) hasn’t been captured by
clever people with ‘special’ vested interests to protect….and that MOS DEFinitely
does include the command-and CONtrol machinery of “the last best hope of
men on earth.”  Neither can they show any Natural Imperative requiring the
CONtrivance of instituted CONtrol mechanisms of any kind.  Those desperate
measures necessitated by the sorry CONdition of homo domesticus do not
qualify, either.

Then again, maybe there wouldn’t be billions of already only (at-best) half-
living tame Humans dying at-least a little every Day from “the industrial
disease,” if only they had access to Good Medicine….but wait, they do, if they
can only get-over their “self”-possession.  It is The Living Virtue of Organic
Functional Integrity.

Our boastfully merciless and grandiosely “self’-important “attack(er)” here
seems a long way from reaching that ‘finish-line,’ too.     

HokaHey!

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, July 13, 2011 at 5:07 pm Link to this comment

Hey, I wasn’t the one at the rally, trying to break up the rally someone ELSE organized.  That was you, pal.

You keep saying that what you are accused of wasn’t true—and then your story keeps changing and each time makes you look worse.  It’s a shitty thing to go to someone else’s rally and try to hi-jack…that’s the ONE constant in your story—you and your cronies tried to hi-jack the rally and got shown the door.  As you well deserved!

And I’m not your son.  Unless you are over 80, you ain’t old enough to be my father.

Your accusations of me don’t reflect my view or positions but simply are your venom and hatred coming out.

Report this

By TAO Walker, July 13, 2011 at 4:37 pm Link to this comment

The Gaelic good-wishes of Michael Cavlan are surely welcome, as is his still
somewhat hedged admission that he might’ve been mistaken about this Old
Man’s….well, call it ‘authenticity.’  Anyhow, his feelings seem honest, even if
their intensity occasionally overwhelms the basic good manners and decent
instincts of what is doubtless a good upbringing and a fundamentally generous
nature….which are certainly nothing to apologize for.

It’d prob’ly be better, though, if this fresh and much less CONtentious
‘atmosphere’ isn’t strained by saying exactly just how many Winters this Old
Indian has actually seen….and what does it matter, really, anyway.

HokaHey!

Report this
flaco's avatar

By flaco, July 13, 2011 at 3:56 pm Link to this comment

And how many people here, are still going to vote for Obama?

Report this
JDmysticDJ's avatar

By JDmysticDJ, July 13, 2011 at 3:40 pm Link to this comment

Tao Walker

“…faux issues as ‘good’ vs. not-so-good ‘government.’”

“These are the terminally obsessive preoccupations
of people whose too-precious “SELF” has already written them off as
‘redundant’ to its ‘process’…”

With these comments you have aroused my animosity. So, I will adopt an attitude of condemning superiority and vent my animosity upon you, I have other choices available to me, (normally I reserve myself to jesting about your idiosyncratic loathing,)but this time I choose to attack you unmercifully. 
 
Who is it that is obsessed with ethnic “SELF,” who is it that isolates himself from greater community, who is it that longs for a utopia that never existed, who is it who disdains and ridicules good government, who is it that offers ridiculous utopian solutions to problems best dealt with by good government? It is you.

It’s clear, to most, that Native Americans have suffered great injustice at the hands of invading “white people,” (Homo domesticus whateverus) and your animosity is understandable and you’re welcome to it, but that animosity along with ridiculous utopian solutions can not turn back the hands of time, and that obsessive animosity can and will accomplish nothing other than continued animosity. I’m certain that your animosity will accompany you to the grave, no harm no foul except to you yourownself. The truth that you apparently can not grasp, or wish to ignore or suppress is that what you advocate has no chance, none, zip, nada, of ever becoming a reality. The potential for world wide universal adoption of what you advocate is an absurdity beyond any hope. What you have advocated “redundantly” is not only redundant it is irrelevant in its impossibility.

The modern world is replete with flaws, injustice, and horrors, but our best hope, yours, mine, and ours, lies with good government, you seek a reality that never will be, and never has been, real. I will not recite the many flaws of previous Native American cultures, and civilizations, because doing so would be excessive animus, prejudicial, and counter productive. Those documented flaws in Native American culture and civilizations are not simply the speculations of Anthropologists; they also come from documented interactions between “white people” and Native American people from the time of earliest contact. It is clear that invading culture has had a profound negative impact on Native American culture, but Native American culture was never the idealized Rousseauian myth expounded upon by some, or the idealized reminiscences handed down by word of mouth from Native American elders.


Expectations of a total and absolute good government are also irrational, but working towards good government can reap rewards, and working towards good government can obstruct and eliminate the worst abuses. Let me suggest that you join your fellow man in this struggle for good government and turn away from holding yourownself aloof and condemningly superior.

Report this

By Michael Cavlan RN, July 13, 2011 at 1:17 pm Link to this comment

Inherit the Wind

There is an old saying

If you are pointing your finger at someone, then you have three pointing back at yourself.

It is your “story” that changes. First you say that I was busted for lying, which I was not. You were lying about that.Then you said that I was trying to steal their microphone. That was a lie.

Now you claim that I “broke up their rally.” Which is another lie. Myself and the others were asked to leave an anti-war march in Minneapolis.

Because we were creating our very own chants.

Three lies, three different, ever changing “stories.”

You son, have no credibility.

Of course not. You are just one more tired apologist for a rotten, corporate corrupted pro-war two party Kabuki Theatre of the Absurd, charade.

Man. These folks ARE mean bastards but they are dumb bastards too.

Grin

//:-D>——-

Report this

By Michael Cavlan RN, July 13, 2011 at 1:05 pm Link to this comment

Inherit the Wind

To quote from the stellar movie about Ralph Nader, An Unreasonable Man when talking about Democrats

They are just a bunch of mean motherfuckers.

Now, go pimp for your pro-war, corporate corrupted two party system.

Thank you president Obama for exposing them for what they really are.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, July 13, 2011 at 12:57 pm Link to this comment

Can’t even keep your stories straight!  You didn’t bring the megaphone, then you did, then you didn’t, only borrowed, then the mgt borrowed, then you wanted it back, then you decided it was time to break up the organizers’ rally for your own purposes.

That’s still nasty, uncouth shit and you DON’T deserve a hearing for your views, as much as you try to weasel out of the shitty thing you and your buds did.

You did it. Man up and own it.

Report this

By Michael Cavlan RN, July 13, 2011 at 12:02 pm Link to this comment

Tao

BTW

My wife and I saw that movie last night (she loves Turner Classic Movies) It was where the “half breed” was killed by the evil white man but his honour was vindicated by the hero. Who was the killer white man’s relative.

And of course our hero got the very pretty “half breed” sister as a wife. Just to complete the movie.

Hokum Smokem

grin

Report this

By Michael Cavlan RN, July 13, 2011 at 11:57 am Link to this comment

Tao

For the record, while I am not 100% certain, I think it is possible that I may owe you an apology. One of your last posts talked on how Indians treat each other and those around them. In a gentle, loving, humble but very sarcastic manner. That hit me. Because some corporate clone sitting in a Monsanto Office or corporate Democrat or Repub office would not know that. It was not just that you described it but HOW you described it that hit me.

So. On the off chance that you are not some key board corporate shill at Monsanto trying to screw up legitimate political discourse.

This thick headed, stubborn but well meaning Irish man sends out his most sincere apology.

May I ask how old our Elder is? Using the white man’s ideas of years of course. Grin.

Go Raibh Maith Agat, Mo Chara Nua
Thank You, My New Friend

Slan Go Foil
May Good Luck Travel With You

Report this

By f browne, July 13, 2011 at 11:54 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

cap tua code dis abled
cav eate emp tor
“In land Empire?”
EU flushing. . .

Report this

By TAO Walker, July 13, 2011 at 11:18 am Link to this comment

A frequent theme In the allamerican horse-opera genre treats the classic tale of
the “good folks” of the town vs. the grubby and greedy gangsters who take it
over.  Most times the bad-guys get their come-uppance at the six-gunned
hands of some “hero”....who occasionally sticks around afterward to enjoy
(within the bonds of holy matrimony, of course) the charms of the local
schoolmarm.  More often the ‘modern’ knight-errant rides off into the
proverbial sunset….no-doubt to liberate some other village beset by
professional oppressors of one stripe or another.

Rarely, the shopkeepers and other townsfolk will muster from among their own
numbers sufficient “gumption” to face down and chase-off the occupying force. 
In every scenario, however, the resolution brings-about a return to the ‘ideal’
estate….buying and selling, “freely,” the fruits of the (armed-force-usurped-
and-occupied) land, and the very half-lives of one another. 

That’s only in the movies.  In the virtual world-o’-hurt, however, where the
entire subspecies homo domesticus languishes, it is all gangster rules all the
time….a matter only of which racketeers ‘one’ pays for ‘protection.’  Some
gangs operate under the banner of “government.”  Others prefer the more
romantic standard of “business.”  Still others are CONvinced some ‘god’ is their
stock-in-trade.  Yet they all depend on maintaining effective CONtrol over
some captive population…..CONstituents/CONsumers/CONfessees.

Had they not lost The Tao of their Humanity, the given place of our Kind (as a
component of Her immune system) in the Living Arrangement of our Mother
Earth, our tame Sisters and Brothers would not now be anguishing over such
biologically meaningless (and so ultimately irrelevant) faux issues as “good” vs.
not-so-good “government.”  These are the terminally obsessive preoccupations
of people whose too-precious “SELF” has already written them off as
‘redundant’ to its ‘process’....surplus to the demands its shrinking eCONomic
operating-system.

Those among them, though, who can get-over their sickening “self,” come
together as Natural Persons in Genuine Human Community, and address their
precious attention to the Living Needs of this Free Wild Living World, will find
again the Natural Human Freedom necessary to the fulfillment of our ORGANic
Human Responsibilities.  It isn’t within the “power,” no matter how much
“money” it spends, of any gangster government (good, bad, or indifferent) even
to recognize that, let-alone do anything at-all to foster it.  While it is in the
essential nature of the machinery of “government,” no matter how benevolently
intended, to come under the “management” of those with “special interests” to
insure…..at the expense of “the governed.”

Live all together as altogether naturally Free and Wild Human Beings, or perish
as isolated “individuals” in the ever-worsening misery of solitary CONfinement
in the “global” gulag….surely not such a difficult ‘choice’?

HokaHey!

Report this

By Michael Cavlan RN, July 13, 2011 at 11:07 am Link to this comment

Inherit the Wind

Where did I say we came prepared to do this? I did not because that is not what happened.

What happened is that a friend who is active in the Free Bradley Manning Movement in Minnesota was there. She gave the megaphone to us. The young man Adam who had given that stellar speech read it out. Out of complete frustration because he had approached the anti-war committee asking if he could be allowed to speak at the rally (in Nearby Loring Park, where the march ended up). Right before that the anti-war committee asked Adam if they could use the megaphone to lead a chant. Adam gave it to them. I told Adam that these were the guys who had previously denied him the ability to speak at the rally. He waited politely until they were done and asked for the megaphone back.

I on the other hand decided to lead a chant after Adam was done. At ohhhh so many previous rallies and marches there were chants of

Who Is The Terrorist?
Bush Is The Terrorist

No problem with THAT chaant

So I decided to lead a chant of

Who Is A Criminal (I forgot to state war criminal)
Obama Is The Criminal

Right before that you heard the discussion of “It is not Obama’s War”, to which I reply “It IS Obama’s War now.”

That is what happened and those are the facts.

However, I have discovered that facts are irrelevant to Obama/Dem?Republican Kabuki Theatre of the Absurd war apologists.

Just like the off the deep end wing of the Tea Baggers.

Inherit

You are one of those apologists

So the facts are irrelevant to you and your kind. That is another fact.

Report this
JDmysticDJ's avatar

By JDmysticDJ, July 13, 2011 at 10:07 am Link to this comment

By deboldt, July 13 at 7:26 am

“Sometimes the most obvious is so obvious that it escapes notice. There is a power able to foment a violent, popular revolution and even bring down civilization.  The Republican Party.  In fact, the end could really begin to happen in a month or two when Amerika’s economy tanks and we default.  If they can bring down the US government, world
governments would fall like Fats Domino.  I’m not kidding.  If you listen what they are really saying, they are anarchists.  I’m behind them 100%!”

By c.hanna, July 12 at 1:13 pm

“’anti-government nihilism’
So what are people suppose to do? Be Pro-government?”


Did deboldt mean to say Fats’ Dominos, if so, who is Fats? If he meant to say Fats Domino then I have to say I’m unaware of the Famous Fats’ propensity for falling, unless it’s falling in love. One thing is clear though; deboldt is “100%” nihilistic.

I’ll suggest that people should be Pro-good government, Pro-better government, or Pro-best government available. Good government is, and has been, the only counterbalance to the excesses of unfettered capitalism, corporatism, and monopoly unless one factors in collective bargaining by employees supported by good government.

In times of economic recession, political survival depends on providing recession ending jobs. In times of economic recession CEO survival depends on eliminating jobs. Politicians must serve the interests of the people in order to survive; CEO’s must serve the interests of the corporation in order to survive. “We the People” do not vote to install CEOs; CEOs are appointed by boards of directors who in almost every conceivable instance make decisions based on their perceived best interest of the corporation.

Report this
deboldt's avatar

By deboldt, July 13, 2011 at 7:26 am Link to this comment

Anarcissie,

I have not been allowed access to the Hedges’ column comments to “The Papers” for a week or more now.  I don’t know if it is my Internet connection, my computer or the site administrator.  So, at the risk of being off topic on this forum I will give you what was my last comment on terrorism.  If you would like to comment directly to me, you can email me at deboldt(at)gmail.com.  This is an important issue you have raised with me. I am hoping it is not being squelched by an oversensitive site moderator.

Sometimes the most obvious is so obvious that it escapes notice. There is a power able to foment a violent, popular revolution and even bring down civilization.  The Republican Party.  In fact, the end could really begin to happen in a month or two when Amerika’s economy tanks and we default.  If they can bring down the US government, world
governments would fall like Fats Domino.  I’m not kidding.  If you listen what they are really saying, they are anarchists.  I’m behind them 100%!

Report this
RayLan's avatar

By RayLan, July 12, 2011 at 6:55 pm Link to this comment

@c.hanna
What is big about government? - fighting big expensive stupid immoral wars - or providing citizens with health care?
If government does not govern then corporate greed will - and does. It’s bigness is little in the face of its commerical global owners.
The bigger the private corporate oligopoly the bigger the public counterweight is needed.
Of course government is not a counterweight at present but the slave of supercapitalist global bigness.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, July 12, 2011 at 5:15 pm Link to this comment

Consider your logic: There are frequently MORE people “protesting” outside Women’s Health Centers than there are in it.  By your logic “Pro-Lifers” should be able to shut the clinic just because there are more of them.

Now you are saying you CAME to the rally with the intention of hi-jacking it for your own purposes—your brought your own megaphone.  That really shits, man. That sucks big time.  You came PLANNING and INTENDING to ruin some one else’s rally.  No wonder you got bounced like penniless drunk from a Skid Row bar. I classify you as a world-class loser for that.

BTW, I think the “truthers” are like “birthers”—a whole lot more noise than actual numbers, which are then inflated—Glenn Beck’s “Million” was less than 100,000.

Report this

By Michael Cavlan RN, July 12, 2011 at 2:47 pm Link to this comment

Inhirit The Wind

Just for the record.

It was our megaphone. A young activist (involved in the Bradley Manning issue) provided it for us. In fact Adam, the other guy talking even let the young woman in the red coat borrow it. Then we got it back.

As for the bogus claim of the 9-11 Truther groups being “our” group, they were not although I know them. They came up to us because THEY LIKED WHAT WE WERE SAYING.

As a disclaimer, I am indeed a 9-11 Truther. In fact I treated some of the victims of the Pentagon attack, a week after 9-11. I was an official member of NDMS National Disaster Medical Systems, a branch of FEMA) because of my years of experience in Burn and Intensive Care Nursing.

I am currently a member of Medical Professionals for 9-11 Truth.

Ppssstttt

9-11 Truthers have rights to Free Speech too. In fact at many “anti-war” rallies they are the majority present. Not that you would know that by the speakers lists.

Report this
JDmysticDJ's avatar

By JDmysticDJ, July 12, 2011 at 1:32 pm Link to this comment

Have you ever noticed how when the nihilistic are confronted with the folly of their thinking, they nearly always prognosticate inevitable doom, which gives us a choice between the doom of their nihilism and the doom of their prognostications.

I’ll buy into a doomsday scenario if we don’t make the correct choices.

Report this

By c.hanna, July 12, 2011 at 1:13 pm Link to this comment

“anti-government nihilism”

So what are people suppose to do? Be Pro-government?

It is assumed this is in reference to the Federal government.

People are sick of the centralized big government era. If anything is annihilating the U.S., it is the U.S. Government, which has insinuated its growing bureaucratic laws and culture on the masses; taken the wealth of the nation and shifted it to the non-working rich who have then invested it overseas. The congress has shown itself to be working for the wealthy and the international cartel which desires to bring EVEN BIGGER GOVERNMENT to all in the form of the Global world government tripe.

The answer is already underway. More and more communities and states are making decisions at local levels…WHERE THE POWER SHOULD BE…not in Washington DC.

Anybody that really believes that a massive centralized government will take care of all of us and cares about OUR interests and health and well being is really pushing it.

All the welfare and social programs they instituted in the mid 20th century were not done because they CARE about YOU. It was done as an appeasement. Well, now that they have millions dependent on their system, they talk about cutting it…In fact that is the first place they chop. No military cuts. The military personnel, specifically the low levels, are nothing but taken care of welfare recipients…Under the pretense that they are there to support our freedoms. Women on welfare are beat up and smeared in media constantly, but the men got their welfare program respected under the false guise of “freedom”. Ironic!

The people need to start supporting their local and state governments, where they will have a better chance at changing the status quo, and start demanding that the Federal Government get out of their lives.

This will happen one way or another. Massive centralized governments always fail at some point, and the U.S. is DOOMED to fail at the centralized fed level…and most likely sooner than later.

We will see if the American people can connect the dots and realize that NOBODY cares about their survival except those at the community level. Two ways this will go: either back to local governing, where people will play a bigger role in the education of their children, a bigger role in the cultural values (not those given to us by Big brother), and a bigger role in their local economies and politics…OR, they will get an even bigger centralized government that will determine their destiny from an international world governing body.

Report this
Not One More!'s avatar

By Not One More!, July 12, 2011 at 1:12 pm Link to this comment

I don’t see why some people tell other people not to blame Obama when they found every opportunity to blame Bush for the exact same actions. Is it wrong only when a republican does the unjust/illegal act?

How much (or little) our elected officials ‘care’ for the general population can be debated, but it is clear that their actions (votes) go contrary to the general public’s interest and well-being.

I don’t see it getting much worse with a republican. Maybe we sink to the bottom quicker, but don’t worry, with our democrats we will get there as well.

When you pick a doctor to do your surgery, are you content with picking the second least incompetent one (the lesser of 2 evils)? Or do you find a doctor that is capable of doing the job right? Is electing a president any less serious than picking a doctor?

Until we stop believing that the democrats will save us, we will continue on the downward path. Vote third party, write somebody in, but vote. Let’s see what happens when the ‘winner’ doesn’t get 50% of the vote and see if they still claim the mandate of the people.

so it goes
unrepentant Nader voter

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. ~ Albert Einstein

“I’d rather vote for what I want and not get it than vote for what I don’t want, and get it.” - Eugene Debs

Report this

By c.hanna, July 12, 2011 at 12:49 pm Link to this comment

It is becoming quite obvious that Big government is not to the best interest of the masses.

And if people want to keep thinking that their Mr. Nobel Peace prize winner Obama is “the lesser of two evils” then there is really nothing you can do to open their eyes, even though the propaganda from Main stream media supports the fact that Left/Right have both been co-opted by the same ideologists.

People just do not want to admit that THEIR party might be part of a greater plan for World authoritarian government. So they blindly follow, unable to connect simple dots in the matter.

The fact is we are trusting our survival to others who only care about theirs. There is no ‘theory’ to one world government; it is a known fact. One only has to look at the international organizations that have been instituted in the name of “freedom” and “humanitarianism” to know that it is true, especially when those organizations approve the bombing of Libyan people.

Obama has a sketchy past. There has been some analysts who say he was in or at least working with the CIA years ago. He is completely on the side of the international elite cartel. He would not be in office if it was otherwise.

The entire “debt ceiling” is being used as a fear mongering tool just as Paulson used fear during the 2008 econ crisis to help further the consolidation of central banking and to pin the losses on the dumb masses (who did nothing while this was done in front of their dumb faces). Do they speak of cutting the trillions from deficits by cutting military? No, that is because Americans are used as the military branch of the trilateral so-called “secret government” although they have been exposed now. American kids will continue to be used as cannon fodder because their parents encourage them to join, out of stupidity.

My prediction is that Obama will get into office again, and that he WILL BE the last president of the United States as we know it; a sovereign nation.

Report this
JDmysticDJ's avatar

By JDmysticDJ, July 12, 2011 at 11:36 am Link to this comment

The consensus here seems to be that things couldn’t get any worse. Oh really?! In case you haven’t noticed, things have gotten a lot worse since the 2010 mid-terms and things can continue to get worse, much worse, depending on the outcome of the 2012 elections.

If Obama had been as openly leftist as we would like him to be, chances are very good that he would not be POTUS. Obama has been placed in the position of convincing the Right and people from his own Party that his left leaning policies are efficacious and preferable to the right-wing ideological policies that have brought us to the difficulties that confront us now. 

The reactionary-right has been ideologically opposed to programs to offset the evils of unfettered capitalism since those policies were first codified into law. Today, right-wing reactionaries are the majority in the Republican Party, and attacking Democrats will only serve the interests of reactionaries and their right-wing agenda.

I don’t want to see a one size fits all demonstration against government, such activism is politically stupid, and serves the Tea Party anti-government agenda. The worst villains should be identified, along with their agenda.

Don’t be stupid and fall prey to idiotic pointless anti-government nihilism. Demonstrate against COINTELPRO-like government activities, protest against the wars, protest against Wall Street, but don’t mindlessly protest and rail against Obama. Obama is no where near perfect, in fact he’s terrible by my appraisal, but he’s better than any Republican alternative, and if you can’t see that you’ve lost your way, you’re lost in a wilderness of distorted reality and political ignorance, and you’re like an aspiring pied piper, bound and determined to lead others into a vacuous oblivion.

Report this

By TAO Walker, July 12, 2011 at 9:58 am Link to this comment

Any “self”-CONtrolled “individual” who believes there is anything even remotely
“mystical” about fulfilling the given ORGANic Responsibility of Humanity within
The Living Arrangement of our Mother Earth, will be quickly disabused of such
illusions the moment they actually DO it….and get-over their too-preciopus “self”
right there and then, too.  Those who would rather keep on flattering their “self,”
however, by indulging in the “self”-glorifying paranoid delusions of
grandeur/persecution that elevate them to the “self”-importance of “target”-
hood, are unlikely to risk such a step….but will more-than-likely have plenty of
company in their make-believe misery.

So c’mon, Baby, light your straw-man on-fire!

HokaHey!

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, July 12, 2011 at 9:36 am Link to this comment

logkAW, July 11 at 6:15 am Link to this comment

Michael Cavlan RN,

Maybe you were booted because members of your group were carrying signs that said “Expose the 9/11 cover-up” and FRS did not want conspiracy hacks to fuck it up.

Also, after briefing watching the video, it’s very clear that you came to a rally that organized by other groups with your own agenda.  You then began to shout and scream on a megaphone after leaders of the organization asked you to work in solidarity with them.  At this point, it doesn’t matter what your qualms are with them about free speech, because at that point you started acting like a child.
*****************

That says it all. You weren’t booted because someone one was restraining your freedom of speech. You were booted because YOU and yours were trying to STEAL their microphone and restrain THEIR freedom of speech.  You’ve re-formulated the story to make it look like you were wronged and that’s totally untrue.  A lie.

As for you, Tao Walker:  I can’t think of poster here so infected with untoward pride, nay, conceit as you.  You contribute nothing and talk in phony “mystical” phrases…“Turtle Island”, “Wild and free peoples”, “this old savage”, “this old Indian” yet use them to cut down anyone who doesn’t worship at your ersatz wisdom.

I don’t. I identify your BS. Therefore I’m a target.

Hokem-Today!

Report this
QuantumBubbler's avatar

By QuantumBubbler, July 12, 2011 at 9:01 am Link to this comment

@RayLan…

The thread of socialism unravels and when it breaks us, then the totalitarianism will be what we’re presented with.

or we will all get together and scare it away!

or it will quit if the money is no good!

or a good talking to through the ballot box will do the job!

Lots can happen, with good guidance even good could become of this world situation, but good guidance seems short in application…

How wrong for how long can things remain?

(just quantumly musing…)

Report this

By TAO Walker, July 12, 2011 at 8:49 am Link to this comment

This Old Man just describes (here in the no-place of cyberspace) in less “self”-
flattering terms than some prefer, what is actually presented by the very
“individuals” who feign such umbrage at these descriptions.  It only seems, to
the CONgenitally thin-skinned, to be “talking down” to their too-precious
“self,” which has to evade the issue by dismissing descriptions of the obvious as
an “abusive line of blarney”....the perfect excuse for feeling “piss(ed) off” at
something, anything, other than their own sickening “self.”

Both “Inherit The Wind” and “Michael Cavlan RN” have laid-claim here to having
close connections among Native Peoples….and good for them.  They both
should know, then, that over-weaning pride is not a prescription for getting
along well within Communities where the profane “self” is not esteemed up to
anywhere near the inflated “value” it is accorded among the domesticated
(who’d rather be called “civilized”).  Being able, and willing, to enjoy the give-
and-take of sometimes ‘pointed’ teasing, is essential to the wholeness and
health of Natural Peoples and Persons. 

Any careful review of instances where either of those gentlemen(?) crossed
words with this Old Savage, will show that it is they who always initiate such a
“frank exchange of views”....invariably by employing the “self”-indulgent
dodges of ad hominem and/or straw-man faux “arguments,” requiring gross
mis-statements of this Person’s actual observations.  Neither has ever sought to
engage on the basis of actual substance, which certainly leaves them open to
suspicions of being purposefully ‘obtuse’....or just plain discursively dishonest.

Anyhow, The Tao is not nor has it ever been a “path” the “self”-absorbed find
much to their liking, so they are of-course more than welcome to just….well,
piss-off.

HokaHey!

Report this

By Michael Cavlan RN, July 12, 2011 at 7:52 am Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind says

Cavlan may be a loud, close-minded radical (who got “busted” on this thread for lying about why he was REALLY tossed out of another rally), but you give him the same abusive line of blarney you give me and others.

Response

I was “busted on this thread for lying” only in the minds of those apologists for the current corporate corrupted, pro-war two party system.

Carry on

Report this
RayLan's avatar

By RayLan, July 12, 2011 at 6:35 am Link to this comment

@QuantumBubbler
“Is the Republic looking better than socialism to you yet? “

The collaboration between the corporatocracy and both parties is obvious and militant. Socialism?
Get serious - totalitarianism - yes
socialism - hardly.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, July 12, 2011 at 5:58 am Link to this comment

Tao Walker:
For someone who always claims his ancient people’s wisdom you sure have a real knack for pissing people off and talking down to them.

Cavlan may be a loud, close-minded radical (who got “busted” on this thread for lying about why he was REALLY tossed out of another rally), but you give him the same abusive line of blarney you give me and others.

TW: If YOU are an example of “The Way” (tao), then that’s a path I don’t want to take.

Hokem-Today.

Report this
proletariatprincess's avatar

By proletariatprincess, July 12, 2011 at 5:49 am Link to this comment

The Police State is the USA jobs program.
Inforcement jobs of all kinds are the primary job description in the US.  It has accomplished the dark vision of hiring half of the working class to turn on the other half. 
The Drug Wars have made all this possible.  And now that the so called War on Drugs is proven to be such a farce and the people are finally able to see it as such, the pretext is changed to terrorism…but it is still the same farce.
When one thinks of the magtitude of the enforcement state, it boggles the mind.  And not just the obvious like civil law enforcement,jails and prisons.  Consider how much is involved in the drug testing industries.  The rehab industries.  The private security industries including production and developement of technologies.
Do people in other countries spend this much on own their jobs programs?  If so, I would speculate that they are much better served.

Report this
QuantumBubbler's avatar

By QuantumBubbler, July 12, 2011 at 3:14 am Link to this comment

They’re seated in the positions of power they have lied and paid for, so they do not need your ‘activism’ anymore.

Go home ‘useful idiots’! They will put you in your place. They expect you to become the worst kind of big-mouth citizens, as you realize the lying bastards you have supported.

Is the Republic looking better than socialism to you yet?

Report this

By bogi666, July 12, 2011 at 2:52 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

FYI TD; First, an incident last year in Detroit where a 7 year old girl was murdered by the SWAT team which had smashed its way into a house. It started with a stun bomb, phosphorous munition, then SWAT thugs crashed through the front door and murdered the 7 year old who was sleeping on the couch, cold blooded murder by the police who then blamed the grandmother for killing the girl as she had emerged from to find out what the commotion was about. The police tried to pin the murder on granny. Even the police knew that what the police, whom were arresting the grandmother, knew it was a absurdity. Also, THE SWAT TEAM HAD ENTERED THE WRONG ADDRESS.Also, now we knew what the 1,000,000 DHS[translated into Gestapo]operatives are doing from their 10,000 locations nationwide. The DHS OPERATIVES are MONITORING the internet. These atrocities are funded by the forced contributions, withholding taxes, of taxing labor for the purpose of repressing, abusing, insulting and treating the forced contributors with arrogance, disdain and hubris.

Report this
RayLan's avatar

By RayLan, July 12, 2011 at 2:44 am Link to this comment

The rank hypocrisy of the administration and the Republic party looms ugly and obvious in these incidents - especially using the pretext of Montes having firearms! usually touted as a sacred entitlement by the Right.
The pretext also registers as a steaming pile of BS for a warmonging government.
Obama is as much a hawkish ass as all the others- I can’t wait for the next election so I can NOT vote for him.

Report this

By tedmurphy41, July 12, 2011 at 1:20 am Link to this comment

It can be compared to some cancers.
You ignore the subtle warning signs which should alert you that something is wrong and then, when you wake up to your situation, it’s mostly too late.
Don’t let your democracy be taken away from you; it may not be the greatest system, but it certainly beats most of the alternatives.

Report this

Page 1 of 2 pages  1 2 >

 
Right 1, Site wide - BlogAds Premium
 
Right 2, Site wide - Blogads
 
Join the Liberal Blog Advertising Network
 
 
 
Right Skyscraper, Site Wide
 
Join the Liberal Blog Advertising Network
 

A Progressive Journal of News and Opinion   Publisher, Zuade Kaufman   Editor, Robert Scheer
© 2014 Truthdig, LLC. All rights reserved.