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Empire of Illusion

Empire of Illusion

By Chris Hedges

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Opium, Rape and the American Way

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Posted on Nov 2, 2009
AP / Musadeq Sadeq

Afghan President Hamid Karzai shares a whisper with U.S. Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass., at a news conference in Kabul last month.

By Chris Hedges

(Page 2)

Thousands of Afghan civilians have died from insurgent and foreign military violence. And American and NATO forces are responsible for almost half the civilian deaths in Afghanistan. Tens of thousands of Afghan civilians have also died from displacement, starvation, disease, exposure, lack of medical treatment, crime and lawlessness resulting from the war. 

Joya argues that Karzai and his rival Abdullah Abdullah, who has withdrawn from the Nov. 7 runoff election, will do nothing to halt the transformation of Afghanistan into a narco-state. She said that NATO, by choosing sides in a battle between two corrupt and brutal opponents, has lost all its legitimacy in the country. 

The recent resignation of a high-level U.S. diplomat in Afghanistan, Matthew Hoh, was in part tied to the drug problem. Hoh wrote in his resignation letter that Karzi’s government is filled with “glaring corruption and unabashed graft.” Karzi, he wrote, is a president “whose confidants and chief advisers comprise drug lords and war crimes villains who mock our own rule of law and counter-narcotics effort.”

Joya said, “Where do you think the $36 billion of money poured into country by the international community have gone? This money went into the pockets of the drug lords and the warlords. There are 18 million people in Afghanistan who live on less than $2 a day while these warlords get rich. The Taliban and warlords together contribute to this fascism while the occupation forces are bombing and killing innocent civilians. When we do not have security how can we even talk about human rights or women’s rights?” 

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“This election under the shade of Afghan war-lordism, drug-lordism, corruption and occupation forces has no legitimacy at all,” she said. “The result will be like the same donkey but with new saddles. It is not important who is voting. It is important who is counting. And this is our problem. Many of those who go with the Taliban do not support the Taliban, but they are fed up with these warlords and this injustice, and they go with the Taliban to take revenge. I do not agree with them, but I understand them. Most of my people are against the Taliban and the warlords, which is why millions did not take part in this tragic drama of an election.”

“The U.S. wastes taxpayers’ money and the blood of their soldiers by supporting such a mafia corrupt system of Hamid Karzai,” said Joya, who changes houses in Kabul frequently because of the numerous death threats made against her. “Eight years is long enough to learn about Karzai and Abdullah. They chained my country to the center of drugs. If Obama was really honest he would support the democratic-minded people of my country. We have a lot [of those people]. But he does not support the democratic-minded people of my country. He is going to start war in Pakistan by attacking in the border area of Pakistan. More civilians have been killed in the Obama period than even during the criminal Bush.”

“My people are sandwiched between two powerful enemies,” she lamented. “The occupation forces from the sky bomb and kill innocent civilians. On the ground, Taliban and these warlords deliver fascism. As NATO kills more civilians, the resistance to the foreign troops increases. If the U.S. government and NATO do not leave voluntarily, my people will give to them the same lesson they gave to Russia and to the English who three times tried to occupy Afghanistan. It is easier for us to fight against one enemy rather than two.”

Chris Hedges, whose column is published on Truthdig every Monday, spent two decades as a foreign reporter covering wars in Latin America, Africa, Europe and the Middle East. He has written nine books, including “Empire of Illusion: The End of Literacy and the Triumph of Spectacle” (2009) and “War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning” (2003).


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By elisalouisa, November 19, 2009 at 5:35 am Link to this comment

Don’t make yourself sound so old Ardee. Frankly, I was just grasping at straws.
One cannot help but feel that our actions on this board are but a microcosm of a
much larger picture such as world politics where nations vie for supremacy and
much of the time the bully and liar nation comes out ahead.
LINK channel has become one of my favorites on TV. Aljazeera has a nightly news
program, also many third world countries are featured as to lifestyle. This is
interesting because third world country residents have a happier look than the
angry, want more perfectionist white man we know. There will not be peace in the
valley for that is not our makeup.

Report this

By ardee, November 19, 2009 at 3:48 am Link to this comment

...and noone understood the reference at all…so sad.

I guess one must be of a certain age to remember such ancient song lyrics.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, November 18, 2009 at 7:26 pm Link to this comment

elisalouisa, November 18 at 9:14 am #

Great idea Ardee. I can’t help but think Folktruther and ITW must miss their
debates, especially since Chris Hedges’ last column was about their favorite
subject and probably written just for them. Folktruther and ITW why don’t you
start posting so you can disagree with each other? All those clever little quips. That was part of what made this forum fun.

*************************************

Yeah, at least it would be an intelligent discussion…And Ardee would chip in with his better insights.

Hey! We might actually have a thread on TD that DISCUSSES ISSUES INTELLIGENTLY!  What a BRILLIANT concept!

No, wouldn’t work.  Chicken Little couldn’t keep from making a fool of herself.

Report this

By elisalouisa, November 18, 2009 at 5:14 am Link to this comment

Great idea Ardee. I can’t help but think Folktruther and ITW must miss their
debates, especially since Chris Hedges’ last column was about their favorite
subject and probably written just for them. Folktruther and ITW why don’t you
start posting so you can disagree with each other? All those clever little quips. That was part of what made this forum fun.

Report this

By ardee, November 18, 2009 at 4:29 am Link to this comment

Leefeller, November 17 at 12:10 pm #

The sky is falling, drivel post.

I say tomatoes, you say potatoes!
You say tomato, I say potato!

No! Potatoes, tomatoes.  No! Potato, tomato.

It seems to be going really well, don’t you think?
********************************

Let’s call the whole thing off.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, November 17, 2009 at 8:51 pm Link to this comment

elisalouisa, November 17 at 3:37 pm #

In summing up .  .  .  .  .I have lost my respect for no one but you Mr. Wind and you have earned it.
****************************************************

What????? No “Drivel Award” to go with it??? I guess there can only be one winner this year and that’s Leefeller—but he’s a superstar!

But…from your statement above, I must infer that you STILL respect Leefeller and haven’t lost respect for him….or are you just as I said: Dumb as a box of rocks.

Report this

By elisalouisa, November 17, 2009 at 11:37 am Link to this comment

In summing up .  .  .  .  .I have lost my respect for no one but you Mr. Wind and you have earned it.

Report this
Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, November 17, 2009 at 8:10 am Link to this comment

The sky is falling, drivel post.

I say tomatoes, you say potatoes!
You say tomato, I say potato!

No! Potatoes, tomatoes.  No! Potato, tomato. 

It seems to be going really well, don’t you think?

Report this

By elisalouisa, November 17, 2009 at 7:49 am Link to this comment

ITW:(Congrats to Leefeller! I consider your loss of ElisaLouisa’s respect. . . . . . . . . .
*****************
ITW: Will you never learn? What does this mean? Does it mean that I have lost
respect for Ardee? Does it mean Ardee has lost respect for me? I don’t read that
in his writings in any way. I also want to make clear that I respect Ardee very much and I find no common trait that the two of you share except perhaps breathing.
Had to make that clear.

Report this

By ardee, November 17, 2009 at 5:35 am Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind, November 17 at 9:10 am

We share one unfortunate trait. We are prone to attack people and not their ideas or ideals.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, November 17, 2009 at 5:10 am Link to this comment

ardee, November 17 at 7:44 am #

While Ardee is totally capable of defending himself and doesn’t need YOUR inept drivel, he boxed himself into a logical corner and wouldn’t accept the contradiction of it.  Tough shit! That’s the way it goes.  If you put up a weak argument you’ll get nailed.
****************************************

A pity you dont look in the mirror more often.
**************************************************

They keep breaking every time I do that!  I gotta shave by braille these days—the plastic unbreakable ones go gray instead!

Seriously—you are smart enough to know if I think your argument is weak I will attack it and you’ll do the same to me.  Fair enough.  I thought you had a weak argument—I went after it.  Next time maybe you’ll get me that way.  All part of debating.

Also, you are capable enough to defend yourself without help from our own “Chicken Little”, the self-styled decider of the “Drivel Award” (Congrats to Leefeller! I consider your loss of ElisaLouisa’s respect to be a sign of your intelligence, wit, humor and sense of the absurd—in people like her!)

Report this

By ardee, November 17, 2009 at 3:44 am Link to this comment

While Ardee is totally capable of defending himself and doesn’t need YOUR inept drivel, he boxed himself into a logical corner and wouldn’t accept the contradiction of it.  Tough shit! That’s the way it goes.  If you put up a weak argument you’ll get nailed.
****************************************

A pity you dont look in the mirror more often.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, November 16, 2009 at 8:17 pm Link to this comment

elisalouisa, November 16 at 10:44 am #

ITW This is what you like to do, continually argue. I do not. Just don’t twist my
words. This is the my last post on this thread.  Hopefully, you are under the care
of a shrink and I say that out of concern for you and your loved ones.

***********************************************

Yeah, you want me to be cured of reality so I can join you and FT in your pipe-dream fantasy world where you don’t have to WORK to produce, it just drops off trees and out of millionaires’ pockets and they magically keep makin’ more!

Don’t you pretend to worry about my loved ones, you phoney-bull-ony “activist”. They are just fine and dandy!  We nurture them, give them lots of freedom but with solid, clear boundaries. We make loving choices, not feeble excuses.

Report this

By elisalouisa, November 16, 2009 at 6:44 am Link to this comment

ITW This is what you like to do, continually argue. I do not. Just don’t twist my
words. This is the my last post on this thread.  Hopefully, you are under the care
of a shrink and I say that out of concern for you and your loved ones.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, November 15, 2009 at 10:01 pm Link to this comment

Oops, Lee—I meant “sensitivity classes”.

Just imagine (in falsetto): “Oh, Miz ElisaLouisa.  I KNOW you sound wrong in all your arguments because they are are ****ing stupid, but I don’t want to hurt your delicate feelings, so it MUST be ME who is wrong. I know my arguments are logical and based on strong premises, but you’re just so sweet and nice, and FolkTruther SOUNDS so smart in his posts, that those ozone-layer-sized holes I see MUST be my own failings. It COULDN’T be that you are…(oh! I’m fainting!)...WRONG!??”

(Pardon me, Lee, while I rush off to barf).

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, November 15, 2009 at 9:54 pm Link to this comment

This was one of the funniest posts of all time!
I remember seeing Tina Fey do her “Sarah Palin” and thinking “This is a bit over the top, but funny.  NOBODY would believe Palin would say this!”

Then I saw the REAL interview and saw that Fey had quoted Palin VERBATIM!  That made it 100x funnier and more brilliant!


You ITW are
insulting most of the time as in your post November 3 at 10:27 pm when you
stated that Folktruther was wrong 95% of the time. 

**************************************************

I was being fair.  I figure that FT is wrong about SO MUCH, so blatantly (except to a Chicken Little like you) that I was being KIND by acknowledging that once in a blue moon (about 2 1/2 weeks out of the year) FT is actually RIGHT! 

You don’t like it? Try getting your facts straight, lady and stop confusing bullshit and fantasy for reality!

***************************************************

In your post of November 7
at 6:37 pm you call Folktruther a phony, fact-fabricating pretentious liar.

***************************************************

Damn straight! And I stand behind it! That man CONSTANTLY says I support the Ultra right-wing Orthodox who want to destroy Palestinians for a greater Israel.  He repeats it again and again and it is just that: A simple (like you) flat-out lie.

That means it’s not true, honey! He’s LYING!

He also CONSTANTLY describes me as a devotee of Ayn Rand, refusing to accept ANY of the fundamental criticism I have REPEATED posted of her and the flaws in her philosophy.

That means it’s not true, honey! He’s LYING!

***********************************************

You call Ardee’s responses to your outrageous posts “weasel answers” (November 8
at 8:16 pm.)  As Ardee stated, paraphrasing, he will respond to you in kind if
you insist upon acting like a little brat. TD3 states ” that you will repeat the
same sophistry and bullshitting again and again and when you are cornered
you state calling people names and putting words in their mouthes they never
said. You are pathetic and saddening.”

**************************************************

While Ardee is totally capable of defending himself and doesn’t need YOUR inept drivel, he boxed himself into a logical corner and wouldn’t accept the contradiction of it.  Tough shit! That’s the way it goes.  If you put up a weak argument you’ll get nailed.

TD3?  Don’t make me laugh—‘nuf ‘ced on that guy!


**************************************************

Another commentor Samson November 3 at 1:10 pm states” ITW is full of it, as
usual. And he starts with the typical propaganda technique of distorting his
opponent’s views.” As Folktruther states november 12 at 11:58 pm “Calling all
the comenteers idiots, liars, drunkards, etc. may satisfy your emotional needs.
. . .” True ITW and that is what you have done with a talent that you only
possess. 

**************************************************

Who is Sampson and why should I give a shit about ANOTHER on-line quack trying to “analyze me”?

*************************************************
Your closing words in a November 10 1:12 post. “Somebody’s got to
be the dumbest in the house”  true ITW and it is you.

****************************************************

Third grade wit, EL—you only prove my point again.

*************************************************

However, your emotions
blind you even though you credit yourself as a person of intellect. What a
laugh!  Folktruther prophetically stated that “You will lie and smear honest
truthers more as the end approaches.” Those are the words of Folktruther
November 7 at 11:21 pm.  That has already begun.

**************************************************
ROFLMAO! Folktruther as “prophet”!?!?!?!??

Yup, ElisaLouisa: That’s you. Dumb as a box of rocks!

(Hey! Lee! Got any of your “humility” you can lend me?)

Report this

By elisalouisa, November 15, 2009 at 9:06 am Link to this comment

Leefeller, is this really you? Wow, I must have really pushed your button. Now I
do agree that Sodium is right when he said, “You are so funny!”

Report this
Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, November 15, 2009 at 7:52 am Link to this comment

“You ITW are
insulting most of the time as in your post November 3 at 10:27 pm when you
stated that Folktruther was wrong 95% of the time.”

Really what was ITW trying to say? Maybe ITW should have instead said, Folktruther was wrong most or all of the time, which would have been much less insulting, yes I find the percentage thing really stretching and insulting and shows much bias.

ITW, what in hell were you not thinking, giving FT 5 percent? Mr. nice Wind I would say!

Do I feel another Chicken Little award of the year flapping in the wind?

The sky is falling!

As a learned drivel expert and award receiptit of the Chicken Litle Drivel awared of the year, it should be clear drivel has been my third ditty of choice.  Now I a m,  starting,  to   c ho i ck   up

c r y i n G !1!

Okay, I stopped!  It must be crowded for FT, sharing the screen with Hedges, how much gushing can they share on ones 12 inch screen?

“In your post of November 7
at 6:37 pm you call Folktruther a phony, fact-fabricating pretentious liar.”  ITW,  Come on ITW, evene Eliswisia sees how redundant this is? 

“Another commentor Samson November 3 at 1:10 pm states” ITW is full of it, as
usual.”  Yes, saying someone is wrong 95 percent of the time takes the cake and over the top insulting, compared to saying a person is full of it.

ITW, you must take some sensitivity classes, it did a world of good for me!

Report this

By elisalouisa, November 15, 2009 at 6:02 am Link to this comment

I doubt there is
any person on this earth who has not felt bias of some sort; because they are
short, tall, white, black, Catholic, Baptist, Jewish,  blonde, blue eyes, you name
it. Yet this set you off. Do you feel bias is exclusive only to Jews?  Others do not
feel it? If that is the case you are wrong. But you are wrong much of the time
and your cheap slurs do not bother me for that is your only armor.  I have gone
back and jotted down but a few of the comments on this thread. You ITW are
insulting most of the time as in your post November 3 at 10:27 pm when you
stated that Folktruther was wrong 95% of the time.  In your post of November 7
at 6:37 pm you call Folktruther a phony, fact-fabricating pretentious liar. You
call Ardee’s responses to your outrageous posts “weasel answers” (November 8
at 8:16 pm.)  As Ardee stated, paraphrasing, he will respond to you in kind if
you insist upon acting like a little brat. TD3 states ” that you will repeat the
same sophistry and bullshitting again and again and when you are cornered
you state calling people names and putting words in their mouthes they never
said. You are pathetic and saddening.”
Another commentor Samson November 3 at 1:10 pm states” ITW is full of it, as
usual. And he starts with the typical propaganda technique of distorting his
opponent’s views.” As Folktruther states november 12 at 11:58 pm “Calling all
the comenteers idiots, liars, drunkards, etc. may satisfy your emotional needs.
. . .” True ITW and that is what you have done with a talent that you only
possess.  Your closing words in a November 10 1:12 post. “Somebody’s got to
be the dumbest in the house”  true ITW and it is you. However, your emotions
blind you even though you credit yourself as a person of intellect. What a
laugh!  Folktruther prophetically stated that “You will lie and smear honest
truthers more as the end approaches.” Those are the words of Folktruther
November 7 at 11:21 pm.  That has already begun.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, November 13, 2009 at 7:27 pm Link to this comment

elisalouisa, November 13 at 11:10 am #

You just won the Chicken Little Award for “Drivel Poster Of The Year” Leefeller.
Congratulations!

************************************************

Treasure it, Leefeller! Chicken Little herself just awarded it to you!

Report this
Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, November 13, 2009 at 6:40 pm Link to this comment

Let me take this time to thank the Chicken Little”s out there, I almost did not expect to receive this Chicken Little Award for “Drivel Poster Of the year.

Such a surprise, This award means so much to me, let me first thank elisalouisa for all her hard work and throwing my name into the chickens nest, let me thank my mother, (Hi Mom) Glenn Beck, who I cry with very often, Grandma Moses for inspiration, teaching me to accept the little people everywhere. Don Rickles, who taught me people like being insulted and how to use drivel effectively, George Carlin, RIP for he was a most important inspiration on the silliness of everything and politics in particular. The captain and Mary Ann for teaching me all about life boats, Mad Magazine which I still find so enlightening, (they aren’t owned by Murdoch are they?)  And of course Monte Python which my parents made me watch while growing up when they went bowling. 

I know this is a long list but I do not want to forget anyone. Oh yeah!  elisalouisa for placing my name in the chickens nest, (Oh I already said her name?)  If I forgot anyone please forgive me, I am so giddy and want to cry, please let everyone know how much I appreciate this award and thank you Chicken Little’s every where for choosing my name, this is most special, the one and only Chicken Little Award for “Drivel Poster Of The Year”

You have made me the most happy driveler in the world.  (What do you mean, I forgot FT?) 

Thank You!

elisalouisa, does this go until next November, I would like to use this in my resume?

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, November 13, 2009 at 9:05 am Link to this comment

Damn it ITW, actually you where correct, I just did not want to make it exclusive to one imbecile, for one knows they are many more than one, playing favorites seems naughty!

The sky is falling?

“Drivel Poster Of The Year” “Leefeller!”

Thank you, Thank you, I do have something to say, though my creativity classes are kicking, I need to take something for it, plus, I have life boat practice to attend!

Report this

By elisalouisa, November 13, 2009 at 7:10 am Link to this comment

You just won the Chicken Little Award for “Drivel Poster Of The Year” Leefeller.
Congratulations!

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, November 13, 2009 at 4:43 am Link to this comment

So then,ITW,  what you want is what I want. We differ only in the steps necessary to get us there. You seem to imply that it is the much beleaguered and persecuted Palestinians that need to make the first gesture.

I think that a stateless people, fractured and desperate should not be held to the same standards as a nation, thriving and well financed, well armed and ill intentioned. I think that the Israeli govt sees the territory Palestinians squat upon as a natural path for expansion.

I think that the first step is to remove themselves and their troops from that soil, offer reparations and assistance to rebuild what they have been destroying for decades. An end to the blockading of food and medical supplies might be nice too….
*************************************************

Ardee:  we are closer than you think.  I do NOT think the Palestinians should be asked to do ANYTHING other than not initiate attacks against Israel.  I think MOST of the first steps NOW need to come from Israel—and I am disgusted by how the Netanyahu regime is making that and peace impossible.

FT of course continues to mis-represent my positions—like where the heck did he get this idea I want the Palestinians to recognize a borderless Israel????  Truly he’s delusional these days.

As for the nefarious “Jewish Billionaires”—are these some guys who are Israeli or American?  If they are Israeli and favor Israel over the US then…isn’t that what you’d expect? If they are American, can you PROVE they favor Israeli interests over American interests?  Or are they the same as MOST billionaires and favor their OWN interests over that of their nations?

While I don’t completely agree with the Ardee and FT position that money interest trumps all, I don’t think it can be dismissed at all:

FT writes an unusually intelligent couple of paragraphs (for him):

**************************************************
A war with Iran is againt Israel’s interests, perhaps fatally so, but the Israeli power structgure apparently wants one.  It is enormously agianst the interestes of the US, obviously so at a time with other wars in process.  But the NyTimes supports the interests of the Israeli power structure more than it does the US power structure.  It is promoting such a war, just ast it put a serious of front page articles on Iraq’s weapons of mass distruction to promote the Iraq war.

This supports PatrickHenry’s position, and Walt’s and Somebody’s on the Israeli Lobby, that it has disporportate influence on US foreign policy.  That is, that Neozionism trumps money, the theoretical position of Petras.  Against my and Ardee’s position that American money trumped neozionism.  This may not mean much to you since you ignore the historial evidence for vilification, but it will to the American people eventually.
***************************************************

Other than the usual attacks on me based on positions I don’t take (yawn) I agree with this.  I’ve LONG said that Israel and Iran are natural allies and it would be DISASTROUS for all 3 nations (including the US) to go to war in Iran.  And I agree 100% that we (as a nation) were DUPED into going into Iraq.  I opposed it and said at the time “how come 150,000 arms inspectors can’t find any WMDs?”

While I definitely think the money interests EASILY top any kind of Zionist interests, I think the Neo-con criminally distorted world view with their desire to be the New Roman Empire trumps even the money interests (though the Neo-cons were…wait for it….CONNED by the money interests).  The money interests ALWAYS, however, go for where there’s money to be made, no matter how toxic.

Hawkeye said it best: “If he thought there was money in dying Frank Burns would stand in front of a firing squad”.

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, November 13, 2009 at 4:37 am Link to this comment

Looks like Mousey Tongue, has been into the catnip again?

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By ardee, November 13, 2009 at 4:23 am Link to this comment

  What I WANT is for Palestine to say: If Israel stops the settlements and pulls out of the West Bank, We’ll consider recognizing its right to exist.  What I WANT is for Israel to pull OUT of the West Bank completely, work out a deal for East Jerusalem (so all can worship there freely) and stop this Likud crap!

Then I want the two sides to put their economic capabilities together with Lebanon to create a new, non-oil-based economic powerhouse in the Mid-East, driven by THREE democratic nations, to show the REST of the region’s people they don’t have to live under dictators!

So then,ITW,  what you want is what I want. We differ only in the steps necessary to get us there. You seem to imply that it is the much beleaguered and persecuted Palestinians that need to make the first gesture.

I think that a stateless people, fractured and desperate should not be held to the same standards as a nation, thriving and well financed, well armed and ill intentioned. I think that the Israeli govt sees the territory Palestinians squat upon as a natural path for expansion.

I think that the first step is to remove themselves and their troops from that soil, offer reparations and assistance to rebuild what they have been destroying for decades. An end to the blockading of food and medical supplies might be nice too….

Report this
Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, November 12, 2009 at 9:36 pm Link to this comment

Why am I having a mental recall of George Burns and Gracy Allen?

Report this

By Folktruther, November 12, 2009 at 7:58 pm Link to this comment

Inherit, what you WANT and what you do are two different thinkgs. the Palestinians are not going to recognize Israel’s ‘right to exist’ as a borderless Jewish state, if only because a fifth of its people ae Palestinians and many others have been disposessed.

But it wouldn’t natter if they did.  The Palestinians obviously want a state and would recognize Israel, AS A STATE WITH GIVEN BORDERS TO GET IT, but Israreli is ruled by a power structure that wants to steal the land and homes of the Palestinians.  As they stole the Golen Hieghts from the Syians.  The world is against this position and will destroy the Israeli state as the US loses world power in the coming decades.  the political war will be very destructive since Israel and US power incrresing depend on violence.

A transcrript of the Obaama-Natanyahoo ciscussion has been released which I haven’t read. A writer summerized,however, that in the tanscript Obama stated the US positiion against increasing settlements. (God knows what really was said)

But the NYTimes, a neozionist paper, but the piece discribing it on a back page, de-emphasizing it, and systematiclly distorted Obama’s position to indicate that he was for a war with Iran.

A war with Iran is againt Israel’s interests, perhaps fatally so, but the Israeli power structgure apparently wants one.  It is enormously agianst the interestes of the US, obviously so at a time with other wars in process.  But the NyTimes supports the interests of the Israeli power structure more than it does the US power structure.  It is promoting such a war, just ast it put a serious of front page articles on Iraq’s weapons of mass distruction to promote the Iraq war.

This supports PatrickHenry’s position, and Walt’s and Somebody’s on the Israeli Lobby, that it has disporportate influence on US foreign policy.  That is, that Neozionism trumps money, the theoretical position of Petras.  Against my and Ardee’s position that American money trumped neozionism.  This may not mean much to you since you ignore the historial evidence for vilification, but it will to the American people eventually.

It indicates that Jewish billionaires support Israeli’s expressed interests more than the US interest, as anti-semites charge.  You undoubtedly do not WANT this to be true, or at least publically known, but it is true in this case.  But you tend to idgnore evidence that you don’t like, obscure or divertt attention from it.  Just as tried to divert attention from Israel’s military pogrom of Gaza.  Your attacks are always against the anti-zionists, never against the horrors that Israel is inflicting onthe world.

Calling all the comenteers idiots, liars, drunkards, etc may satisify your emotional needs, but in the meanitime Aipaci is controlling Congress, the neozionist media is infulencing the public, Horriwtz, etc are attacking anti-zinist professors, and the US is preparing for war.  and instead of attacking the neozionist inducers of it, you give feeble explanations of what you WANT.

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By elisalouisa, November 12, 2009 at 7:58 pm Link to this comment

There you go again ITW, misconstruing what is written and twisting the meaning
to suit your erroneous perception of what is. Persecution is a strong word, one I
did not use. Evidently you were so upset at your Public School teachers you didn’t
bother to pay attention in reading class. Bias was my word. Go back to school, it
might do you a world of good in reading posts correctly and also Chris Hedges
columns. Angry about Christmas??? Angry about “In God WE Trust’?  What else are you angry about? In reading your post I have come to the conclusion that your bias against most Christians is now overt.

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By Leefeller, November 12, 2009 at 7:31 pm Link to this comment

ITW, Actually I was thinking about FT or Mousy Tounge! But now that you mention it.

Let me add, sometimes I do not really read some peoples posts, but the difference being, I also do not comment on them! Except in the case several weeks agon on Hedges article, and I announced it repeatedly, plus it was a hoot, though I found it more amusing when he went to the Porn-fest!

FYI: The Queen Mary is small compared to today’s cruse ship sizes, anyone know if she is still docked in Long Beach?

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By Inherit The Wind, November 12, 2009 at 7:14 pm Link to this comment

Leefeller, November 12 at 12:03 pm #

For some reason I am reminded; of when as a youngster about when I was in the third grade; of a cruse vacation my family and took on the Queen Mary. Seems like so many years ago, maybe because it was?  As the ship was getting ready to leave port. One a the first things they must provide on a curse ship, is a life boat safety demonstration.

People are shown to areas and given assignments and how to enter the life boat, were to go and what to do sort of thing. So our crew member showed us our assigned lifeboat and how it would potentially work in an emergency, it seemed so interesting to me and was all very clear, so I even remember today what everyone needed to do.

After the instructor had finished with the lengthy instructions on life boat safety. He asked if anyone had any questions about what do do in case of an emergency and we needed to board the life boat?  A Lady raised her hand and asked “what life boat”?

Could me jogged memories, be seeing more than the Queen Mary?
****************************************

Let me guess—you are telling this story because, coincidentally, the lady’s name was….Elisa Louisa?

Poor, poor EW…A few people challenge her faith and she’s ready to join the Fallwell-ites in their claims that Christianity is being persecuted in America—because they can not longer legally shove it down everybody else’s throats.  Awwwww….. 

I grew up with public school teachers who used Jesus Christ as the lynch-pin of arguments..“And because God gave us his only son, Jesus, beauty is therefore objective and not subjective”  Yeah. No fuckin’ foolin’—I got that in public school in the 60’s in New York.

There was always SOME asshole who insisted it was HIS right to put a creche on the high school lawn at Christmas time—although the high school was and is surrounded by 3 churches—one in front and one on either side and they ALL had creches already.

And why IS Christmas a national holiday in our supposedly secular nation?

And why is “In God We Trust” on the money?  You know, Teddy Roosevelt, a VERY devout Christian, had it taken off as it thought it was a SIN to put that on money, which was so often used for “sinful” things.

So, when I hear about Christian persecution in America, I just want to laugh!

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By Leefeller, November 12, 2009 at 8:03 am Link to this comment

For some reason I am reminded; of when as a youngster about when I was in the third grade; of a cruse vacation my family and took on the Queen Mary. Seems like so many years ago, maybe because it was?  As the ship was getting ready to leave port. One a the first things they must provide on a curse ship, is a life boat safety demonstration.

People are shown to areas and given assignments and how to enter the life boat, were to go and what to do sort of thing. So our crew member showed us our assigned lifeboat and how it would potentially work in an emergency, it seemed so interesting to me and was all very clear, so I even remember today what everyone needed to do. 

After the instructor had finished with the lengthy instructions on life boat safety. He asked if anyone had any questions about what do do in case of an emergency and we needed to board the life boat?  A Lady raised her hand and asked “what life boat”?

Could me jogged memories, be seeing more than the Queen Mary?

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By elisalouisa, November 12, 2009 at 7:26 am Link to this comment

ITW:If you follow the thread of our posts from the beginning you will find that our
disagreement is really about about Mr. Hedges and your continual and clever twist of his words.
Setting the record straight is not your intent, you come across as wanting to discredit Mr. Hedges for whatever reason.
Religious bias comes in all forms and can be found in the most incredible places.
I know because in a covert manner I have felt its sting more often than I care to
say.  It is those who believe in a higher source by whatever name and what others may assume correctly or incorrectly that implies, who must now continually defend their writings due to the bias of the reader.

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By Inherit The Wind, November 12, 2009 at 4:29 am Link to this comment

ElisaLouisa:

I stand by what I said. There seemed to be no reason to repeat stuff you obviously didn’t read anyway, nor to comment on stuff that STILL did not contradict my point.  For women, Taliban is STILL worse than Karzai.  They STILL get to go to school and not half to walk around as blue traffic cones under Karzai.

Do you have a problem with simple logic? Saying the Taliban is worse does not and NEVER meant that women have it good under Karzai.  How hard is that to understand, or do you have a simple binary mentality like so many zealots here? 

Light-switch mentality falsely makes the connection that “better” = “good”.  It doesn’t. 

Women have it “better” under Karzai than under the Taliban. Women do not have it “good” under Karzai.

Is that STILL too difficult for you to understand?

Here’s a binary on my side: I can’t tell flat-out dumbness from cognitive dissonance.

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By elisalouisa, November 11, 2009 at 10:52 pm Link to this comment

ItW: You pack a good punch but it’s not a knockout by any means as
Folktruther is proof of. Our disagreement started when you did not respond to
my factual statements written by Mr. Hedges as to his concern for women in
Afghanistan, twice in fact. You state in your post of 11/2 at 10:59 pm “Hedges
claims Karzai and the warlords are just as suppressive of women as the
Taliban. This is clearly and patently false.” When I proved to you that it was true
and quoted a law that he signed into effect in August which gave husbands the
custody of children and also control over their wives did you respond? No,
your tactic was to dodge and weave until such time you could attack on other
issue. It is you who lied as to Hedges’ concern for the rights of Afghan women
and then would not admit it even when proof was presented. Another
subsequent post I wrote quoted Helen Thomas, whose credentials are untouchable, as to her concerns about Israel.  I stated I was in complete agreement with Helen Thomas’ comments. If you read carefully you were never mentioned in my post
other than it being addressed to you so that my views would be clear.  You
twisted what I conveyed as an attack on you. As for vying with Truedigger3 for
the title you mention, I find truedigger3’s posts knowledgeable and of
substance, especially the last one which I quote:“ITW is completely blinded by
his zionist blinders and it is hopeless case to try to engage wiht him in any
discussion about Israel and its atrocities. He will repeat the same sophistry and
bullshitting again and again and when he is cornered he start calling people
names and put words in their mouthes they never said. Pathetic and
saddening.”
How true Truedigger3.

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By Inherit The Wind, November 11, 2009 at 7:05 pm Link to this comment

The force of the response you say. The root causes of the conflict I say. You seem to infer that whipping slaves is a fine idea as long as one controls the force of the whip. Sorry for the rather poor analogy but its the best I can do at 5 AM.

Israel ousted three quarters of a million Arabs upon becoming a state. Thus they created the problem they now face, they are solely and completely responsible for it! You seem to think that the Palestinians should just starve to death quietly. Sorry, ITW, I cannot support you in that.

***************************************************

I do NOT want them to starve to death! Where do you get that crap, EH and PH?  What I WANT is for Palestine to say: If Israel stops the settlements and pulls out of the West Bank, We’ll consider recognizing its right to exist.  What I WANT is for Israel to pull OUT of the West Bank completely, work out a deal for East Jerusalem (so all can worship there freely) and stop this Likud crap!

Then I want the two sides to put their economic capabilities together with Lebanon to create a new, non-oil-based economic powerhouse in the Mid-East, driven by THREE democratic nations, to show the REST of the region’s people they don’t have to live under dictators!

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By elisalouisa, November 11, 2009 at 8:20 am Link to this comment

There is life in you after all Leefeller.  Congratulations. However, remember that
you don’t want your sensitivity class instructer to get upset. To prevent further
agitation I shall not respond to your last post.

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By Leefeller, November 11, 2009 at 7:39 am Link to this comment

elisalouisa,

Comments from your lost post provide insight into what the problem may be, comprehension or a predetermined conclusion when seeing my posts, instead of reading them. (Seems to be trendy)

Last week I purposely did not read Hedges post, for I wanted to see if I could capture the intent of his article by reading only the posts. Actually I did and enjoyed it also! I have read Hedges article this week and believe I commented on it.

Gushing admiration a searching for the stars attitude, seems to have clouded even blinded some posters into not seeing reality. Reminds one of some strange deluded mushroom cult, demanding others accept the profoundness in Hedges articles as the gospel. (MY opinion) 

My comments on Hedges may have been in a sense uncomfortable or disagreeable, seems sort of like   rocking a boat load of moon babies. 

It does seem amusing,  some posters show their fetishes with pride and protect them like ferocious mother wolves.  No discussion, just attack.

Posters should enjoy Hedges or any poster or article as they wishes. I will continue to voice my opinions, for it seems insight needs prodding, differences of opinion seem new to many who have a tenancy to write as if they believe only in predetermined absolutism’s!

This is all my Opinion!  My Opinion! My Opinion changes on occasion, maybe changes more than one would suspect. For me this is the learning process!

Wouldn’t it seem more prudent to discuss my comments instead of attacking my person?  How does it seem these pissing contests appear?

So here it is I have once again protracted the normal TD standard of discrediting the poster in resonse. Great job elisalouisa!

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By elisalouisa, November 11, 2009 at 6:16 am Link to this comment

You Leefeller read my posts through a filter that recolors my comments to suit your concept of those whose beliefs are of another nature. The pursuit of Justice is
not ambition, in fact it may be detrimental to what ambitions you may have.
Our mainstream media does not pursue justice, they are ambitious. You say if
one is content they prefer to protect the present. Others are destroying the
“present” and in that destruction are limiting hope for the future. In your
weekly comments boosting about how you do not bother to read Chris Hedges
columns and in your low key negative comments about his supporters you tell
something about yourself. You say that you really do not care to know what is
going on. Yet, as the same time the fact that you are here tells me that a part
of you is seeking something. Mr. Hedges’  latest column ‘Afghanistan’s Sham
Army’ tells much about our government and why war is pursued. It is in your interest to have such facts. Mr. Hedges tells about the present and how precarious our lives are in the hands of the people we elected. I really do not know what his beliefs are as to a higher power but prejudice against those who do believe that a source, energy, God created our earth is just as serious as any other prejudgment. In your 11/10 4:14 pm post you comment that ” for a long time now your question has been why do people always seem to want to force belief in their causes on others?” This really surprises me.  Do you really feel others want to force you into believing certain causes?

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By ardee, November 11, 2009 at 6:15 am Link to this comment

And I really resent your claiming I don’t debate with honesty and self respect.  I expect that crap from FT, PH, EH, ElisaLouisa and TD3—they are didactic morons.  But not you.

and then you prove the opposite with :

Inherit The Wind, November 10 at 10:59 pm #

The force of the response you say. The root causes of the conflict I say. You seem to infer that whipping slaves is a fine idea as long as one controls the force of the whip. Sorry for the rather poor analogy but its the best I can do at 5 AM.

Israel ousted three quarters of a million Arabs upon becoming a state. Thus they created the problem they now face, they are solely and completely responsible for it! You seem to think that the Palestinians should just starve to death quietly. Sorry, ITW, I cannot support you in that.

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By Leefeller, November 10, 2009 at 7:26 pm Link to this comment

It is also known fanatics have several common traits.  It has been reported by an unreliable news source, probably Fox, fanatics have self induced comprehension disabilities along with the very special ability to ignore facts, sort of like Sarah Palin!

Thud!

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By Inherit The Wind, November 10, 2009 at 6:59 pm Link to this comment

elisalouisa, November 10 at 1:39 am #

Far be it for me to expect one such as you Mr. Wind to take my opinion. But
how about Helen Thomas? A column she wrote printed on November 4 entitled
“It’s The Same Old Mideast Policy” is quite interesting. Miss Thomas states that
on Saturday October 31 Secretary of State Hillary Clinton praised as
“unprecedented” a Natanyahu plan to delay for a year the building of new
settlements but still permit construction of nearly 3,000 housing units
currently on the books,all in the name of “natural growth.” The ban also would
not apply to new building in East Jerusalem where Arab families are being
evicted from their longtime homes. Arab leaders now say the Obama
administration appears to be backsliding on the settlements issue. Miss
Thomas also asks why would the United States aid—in terms of billions of
dollars annually and its political support—any country that oppresses a
helpless people with its military power and daily humiliation at checkpoints and
walls? She also states that settlers from all over are laying claim to land by
virtue of their religion and inflicting suffering on those who have not harmed
them. Simply put, they come from far away places to take other people’s
homes. What people would tolerate that? Since 1967, the Israelis have pushed
Palestinians out and built homes for thousands of Jews in East Jerusalem—a
site where Palestinians hope to make their capital in a future Palestinian state.
In her closing comments Miss Thomas states that Israel continues to portray
itself as the underdog—simply trying to ‘defend itself” against those
“terrorists” who somehow are angry that their homes have been demolished
and their olive and orange groves and vineyard plundered and confiscated.
Clearly the Israelis intend to expand their holdings.

**************************************************

You know what, EL?  You are really vying with TD3 for “Dumbest Poster in The Contingent.”

When have I EVER supported Netanyahu, praised him or did ANYTHING but condemn his policies as fascist and dangerous to Israeli and Arab alike?

Have you NOT read that I want the USA to use an escalating pressure of cutting off more and more aid until Netanyahu and his Likud backer CEASE all new settlement building and roll back the ones that were not supposed to be built and REMOVE the clearly illegal ones?

As for Dr. Quack (aka FT): It’s clear your ability as a psychologist makes Christian96 look like Sigmund Freud.

Yes, you ARE a congenital liar, constantly repeating the same Goebbelesque Big Lies about me. Don’t like my calling you out with the Truth?
THEN STOP DOING IT!

Or should I say you are using the Rush Limbaugh/Glen Beck/Sean Hannity / Swift Boat tactic of repeating the same lie again and again for years?....they LEARNED it from Goebbels, you “historically challenged” didactic fanatic.

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By Inherit The Wind, November 10, 2009 at 6:48 pm Link to this comment

ardee, November 10 at 8:03 am #

Inherit The Wind, November 10 at 1:12 am #

Excuse me, Ardee, but YOU are saying Israel should do EXACTLY the same thing you say I claim the Gazans should do: nothing.

So what is someone takes pot-shots at you with a .22…a little tiny bullet like that can’t hurt much—or can it?

This post illustrates the major failing of ITW’s debating style, and possibly his thought processes and fact gathering ability as well.

Apparently ITW thinks that list of suggestions I made is “do nothing” possibly because it fails to slaughter Palestinians
(cheap shot of course but what is the inevitable conclusion?).

I think ITW should peruse the rolls of the dead in this conflict and carefully note the huge discrepancies between the few Israeli dead and the enormous numbers of Palestinian no longer drawing breath.

Debate with some degree of honesty and self respect or just dont bother.

********************************************

Ardee:

Didn’t you read THIS part of my post?  I’m bolding the key phrase just in case you missed it. 

Challenging the FORCE of the response is a valid argument—you can make that and we can either agree or disagree.

Challenging the RIGHT to respond is as stupid and immoral as convicting someone who acts in self-defense.”

And I really resent your claiming I don’t debate with honesty and self respect.  I expect that crap from FT, PH, EH, ElisaLouisa and TD3—they are didactic morons.  But not you.

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By elisalouisa, November 10, 2009 at 4:57 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther: One cannot help but come to the conclusion as to Israel that the
outcome will be war and the use of nuclear weapons and other WMDs is
inevitable. Thank you for your input and sharing your knowledge which will
become more valuable as time goes on. I appreciate the fact that you describe
Inherit as intelligent and courageous; I have not seen anything in his posts that
would indicate otherwise.

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By Leefeller, November 10, 2009 at 2:31 pm Link to this comment

FT,

A shining example of compassion, may I never express my comments in thy cold typically cynical, vacuous and morally insensitive manner again for all one need do is follow in FT’s self enlightened footsteps. 

If one does not wish to comment on anothers comments so be it, if one cannot so be it also, if one prefers not to respond so be it, FT most disappointing and patronizing at the same time.

My time spent in sensitivity class’s must be showing, for I have been most polite.

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By Folktruther, November 10, 2009 at 1:38 pm Link to this comment

I always like your comments, Elisa, because they are very sincere and typcially knowledgeable, as opposed, say, to leefeller’s whose comeents are typically cynical, vacuous and morally insensitive. But I like Inherit’s commnents because I use him as a touchstone for the conflicted and bankrupt ideologcal positions of most Jews, although Ihnerit is more intelligent, vulgar, courageous and cynical.

Innerit is caught in the quagmire of the Neozionist-Any Rand ideology which he does not acknowledge as an ideology.  His wife is a financial counslor and they are both indoctrinated into neoliberal eocnomics, as variations of Milton Freedman.  This eocnomic theory is intellectually absurd, the presuppostions being buttressed by math arguments based often on fabricated statistics, like the umemployment index.  neoliberalism and Zionism, which are logically distinct, are often embodied in neozionist ideology.

Israel’s oppression of the Palestinians is so blatant, obvious and horrifying that it can only be justified by deceit, irrationality, diversion and delusion.  or by the Aipac, Deshawitz, Horriwitz tactic of censorship and firing honest truthers from their jobs in the truth industry.  Inherit gives lip service to opposing this in rhetoric while supporting it in practice, attacking anyone who documents Israeli brutality as anti-semitic in the Aipac way, and calling them names, like ‘imbacile’ ‘idiot’ etc, and ascribing sbsurd positions to them that they obviously do not hold.

I confess that due to my frivilous nature I find Inherits absurdities very funny sometimes, stating in a post below that I was trained in Goebbel’s school and that I am genetically incapable of writting anthing true about him.  Long ago he stated that I hate all Jews and similar Aipac truths.  the purpose is like that of Aipac, to intimidate, to make people afraid to tell the simple reality based truth, since it subverts Inherit’s neozionist ideology.

But in the last week a decisive change has occurred in US-Israeli relations, Obama having effectively supported building the settlements.  The Palestinians have no alternative to this policy but war, as the falling away of their US led puppets like Abbas indicate.  This givves neozionist lemmings like Inherit no place to stand, buecause it destroys the possiblity of the two-state solution, the obvious historical solution to the Israeli problem.

Because of the religious presuppositions of Israeli policy, the Israeli power structure has developed that megalomania that the British historian Eric Hobsbawm (also a Jew) maintains is common in imperialisms of all kinds.  As Israel goes continually to the right historically, supported by the Inherits of the West, its position becomes increasingly unviaable.  The outcome is inevitably war, and Israel has nuclear weapons.  So the neozionists will become increasingly strident as they become increasingly irrational.  And endorsing increasing horrors of violence.

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By Leefeller, November 10, 2009 at 12:14 pm Link to this comment

Discontent seeks cause not the other way around. If one is content they prefer to protect the present, existence is seen as acceptable, so cause would seem unlikely. On the other hand, misfits, disenchanted, and any number of unhappy seek a cause for the cause provides a hope for the future, as opposed to the present which has little to offer from perceptions of those in a cause.

One may define followers of a cause as heroes, though this seems self serving and rhetorical in nature and would only be seen as such by those followers of the cause, defiantly not those opposed or subject to actions promoted against them by the cause. 

Calling someone an outsider looking in seems to support the cause which needs the “us and them”, seemingly almost fanatical.

This may seem an exercise in futility seeking answers of understanding my question.  For a long time now, my question has been why do people always seem to want to force belief in their causes on others?

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By elisalouisa, November 10, 2009 at 11:01 am Link to this comment

My personal experience Leefeller is that causes have found me. Infact, it was my
desire not to be found as it can disrupt your life. Since you have not felt that tug
of heart you can not speak for my feelings. Fanatic is one of the more widely and
misused words on this forum.  According to your comments you are on the
outside looking in so you cannot say that the “believer of a cause is fanatic.” The power/elite believe in their cause of putting down the middle and working class thus attaining more control. Should we stand on the sidelines and allow this to happen? Would one who tries to oppose them in a determined manner be called fanatic?  No. The word to describe such a person would be more like hero. We cannot find common ground on this subject so let’s agree that we disagree.

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By Leefeller, November 10, 2009 at 10:07 am Link to this comment

First of all I do not abhor Hedges or his posts, I find his posts annoying, for I feel he preaches as he seems to me, as he seems to be talking down on his audience as a judge.

Causes do not find the individual, may I suggest causes are sought by discontented individuals who would prefer not to be the individuals, instead they commit to become part of a cause. The cause becomes consuming for the persons in the cause, I prefer assigning a title for the believer of a cause as fanatics.

I respect you opinion though, in disagreement. As far as the thud goes, I will try to give them up!

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By elisalouisa, November 10, 2009 at 9:40 am Link to this comment

Leefeller November 10 at 7:02am The War on Language:What seems interesting to me is how does one choose a cause?  Finding the most noble cause?

Causes are never chosen Leefeller, they choose you. The injustice and suffering
and destruction of what is grips your heart and you react. Of course, your question leads one to the conclusion that you have never experienced such a reaction. It is no wonder that you do not understand Chris Hedges and abhor his columns or sit on the side lines here with remarks that reach for wit but not quite making it land with a thud.

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By Leefeller, November 10, 2009 at 8:29 am Link to this comment

Blame seems to always bubble to surface on the problems of the day, notice how pointing of fingers goes. How easy it is to find someone who to blame, when never looking at oneself.

Notice how the blamer with the usual contrived convenience seems to always select someone, not on their personal nice list.

My fear of clowns, makes my choice easy!

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By elisalouisa, November 10, 2009 at 7:44 am Link to this comment

Where do the Palestinians go who must leave their homeland so that others
may benefit from the fruit of their work. Many go to Europe just as the
dispossessed from Cuba and other areas south of our border come to the our
shores illegally. The Palestinians sometimes make their through Italy on the
Adriatic side doing whatever they must do to survive. Of course people living
in those lands blame what is going on in the Middle East as to the wretched
condition of the people who prey upon the weak of their lands. I personally
know one such young woman who had her purse snatched and her shoulder
dislocated because of it while strolling along the Adriatic beach. She did not
blame the perpetrator of the act but the fact that he had been driven from his
homeland through no fault of his own. 
The military court following Thursday’s shooting at the Fort Hood Army post
described Major Hasan who killed 13 at Fort Hood as a U.S.-born Muslim of
Palestinian descent.* So you see the cause-effect principle as to what is going
on in Israel is very much in effect.

*See article ‘Fort Hood suspect contacted Islamist’ By Jeremy Pelofsky and
Adam Entous 11/10/09 7;30 est

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By ardee, November 10, 2009 at 4:03 am Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind, November 10 at 1:12 am #

Excuse me, Ardee, but YOU are saying Israel should do EXACTLY the same thing you say I claim the Gazans should do: nothing.

So what is someone takes pot-shots at you with a .22…a little tiny bullet like that can’t hurt much—or can it?

This post illustrates the major failing of ITW’s debating style, and possibly his thought processes and fact gathering ability as well.

Apparently ITW thinks that list of suggestions I made is “do nothing” possibly because it fails to slaughter Palestinians
(cheap shot of course but what is the inevitable conclusion?).

I think ITW should peruse the rolls of the dead in this conflict and carefully note the huge discrepancies between the few Israeli dead and the enormous numbers of Palestinian no longer drawing breath.

Debate with some degree of honesty and self respect or just dont bother.

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By elisalouisa, November 9, 2009 at 9:49 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther: I know you have been sparring with ITW about Zionism, however,
ardee’s remarks were recent and I feel he hesitated in speaking just as I did.
Zionism is a complicated issue and I know you are far more versed on the subject
than I.

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By elisalouisa, November 9, 2009 at 9:39 pm Link to this comment

Far be it for me to expect one such as you Mr. Wind to take my opinion. But
how about Helen Thomas? A column she wrote printed on November 4 entitled
“It’s The Same Old Mideast Policy” is quite interesting. Miss Thomas states that
on Saturday October 31 Secretary of State Hillary Clinton praised as
“unprecedented” a Natanyahu plan to delay for a year the building of new
settlements but still permit construction of nearly 3,000 housing units
currently on the books,all in the name of “natural growth.” The ban also would
not apply to new building in East Jerusalem where Arab families are being
evicted from their longtime homes. Arab leaders now say the Obama
administration appears to be backsliding on the settlements issue. Miss
Thomas also asks why would the United States aid—in terms of billions of
dollars annually and its political support—any country that oppresses a
helpless people with its military power and daily humiliation at checkpoints and
walls? She also states that settlers from all over are laying claim to land by
virtue of their religion and inflicting suffering on those who have not harmed
them. Simply put, they come from far away places to take other people’s
homes. What people would tolerate that? Since 1967, the Israelis have pushed
Palestinians out and built homes for thousands of Jews in East Jerusalem—a
site where Palestinians hope to make their capital in a future Palestinian state.
In her closing comments Miss Thomas states that Israel continues to portray
itself as the underdog—simply trying to ‘defend itself” against those
“terrorists” who somehow are angry that their homes have been demolished
and their olive and orange groves and vineyard plundered and confiscated.
Clearly the Israelis intend to expand their holdings.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, November 9, 2009 at 9:12 pm Link to this comment

Excuse me, Ardee, but YOU are saying Israel should do EXACTLY the same thing you say I claim the Gazans should do: nothing.

So what is someone takes pot-shots at you with a .22…a little tiny bullet like that can’t hurt much—or can it?

You are saying Israel should allow themselves to be shot at. Why should they?  Challenging the FORCE of the response is a valid argument—you can make that and we can either agree or disagree. 

Challenging the RIGHT to respond is as stupid and immoral as convicting someone who acts in self-defense.

As for the opinions of folks like TD3 and Elisalouisa, I don’t put any stock in their over-simplified, emotional, baseless opinions, either of the politics of the world, nor of me.  I seem them simply as fairly consistent imbeciles.

Somebody’s got to be the dumbest in the house….

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By ardee, November 9, 2009 at 3:46 pm Link to this comment

He will repeat the same sophistry and bullshitting again and again and when he is cornered he start calling people names and put words in their mouths they never said. Pathetic and saddening.

That last is really outrgee, in drag no doubt.

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By Leefeller, November 9, 2009 at 9:25 am Link to this comment

It may be, as the world continues to become smaller, everyone will be wearing blinders.

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By truedigger3, November 9, 2009 at 6:32 am Link to this comment

Re: By ardee, November 9 at 8:24 am #


ardee,
Excellent and to the point response to ITW.
ITW is completely blinded by his zionist blinders and it is hopeless case to try to engage wiht him in any discussion about Israel and its atrocities. He will repeat the same sophistry and bullshitting again and again and when he is cornered he start calling people names and put words in their mouthes they never said. Pathetic and saddening.

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By elisalouisa, November 9, 2009 at 5:40 am Link to this comment

Mr. Wind (do you mind being called Mr. Wind?)  I cannot help but admire Ardee
for his response. Ardee has had the courage to say what many people feel but do
not put into words. The question is, when will Israel feel safe? Even if Israel does
succeed in annihilating all Palestinians, what then? Even if Iran is attacked and
subdued what then?. There are still many Arabs to contend and Muslims all over
the world, they will be even more incensed at what is going on so they must be
attacked, Where is this all going to end?

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By ardee, November 9, 2009 at 4:24 am Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind, November 8 at 8:16 pm #

ARDEE (and I don’t mind ITW)

You’ve given me the weasel answer I expected but hoped I wouldn’t get.

Your idea of the IDEAL response to rocket attacks: Do Nothing.  Anything else is clearly to you, a “crime”.

Speaking of weasels hows the family?

Seriously and sadly, do you really think ignoring the several responses to rocket attacks is debate? Do you think that I care one whit for your stupidly childish responses to those who speak for peace and fail to buy into your hypocrisy?

Do you think that , in response to a few antiquated, inaccurate and almost harmless rocket attacks, the bombing of crowded apartment buildings, the murdering of thousands of unarmed civilians, including women and children, the torturing of captured Palestinians, the assassination of Hamas and Fatah leaders, some by firing rockets at crowded streets, some by dropping five hundred Lb. bombs on an apartment complex ( that attack killed many neighbors and the target’s two small children as well) is a fine and dandy response?

I think that, if you do indeed think that way, you have earned my contempt. That you cannot seem to defend your own position but only insult those who offer another voice speaks volumes about that position being indefensible.

I am quite capable of responding to you in kind, I always have in the past and will if you insist upon acting like a little brat.

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By Folktruther, November 8, 2009 at 8:11 pm Link to this comment

I see, Inherit.  Israel should respond to Palestinians violence with violence.

But Palestinians must not respond to Israeli violence with violence.  They should allow themselves to be destroyed non-violently.

this is the position of all the major Israeli parties so you are in a majority.  For the historical time being.  And anyone who says you are a neozionist lemming is a liar. 

A bankkrupt historical position.

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By Inherit The Wind, November 8, 2009 at 4:16 pm Link to this comment

ARDEE (and I don’t mind ITW)

You’ve given me the weasel answer I expected but hoped I wouldn’t get.

Your idea of the IDEAL response to rocket attacks: Do Nothing.  Anything else is clearly to you, a “crime”.

Sorry, I don’t agree.  You actually avoided saying what SHOULD Israel do when they are attacked by rockets, because, you have no answer, using lots of weasel arguments about what you think they SHOULD have done BEFORE it became a problem.

Maybe if you close your eyes and wish really, really hard, the situation will get better.  Me? I prefer REAL solutions that address the real problems.

Don’t try to twist it to make it sound like I defend ANY Israeli action.  I don’t.

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By ardee, November 8, 2009 at 2:07 pm Link to this comment

RD: Are you saying that ANY response to rocket attacks was fundamentally wrong or that there WERE military responses Israel could have taken in Gaza that you WOULD accept? (but that they chose much more illegal ones…) If so, what military response to the attacks would YOU have recommended Israel take?


Its ardee, ITW......

there were many peaceful measure Israel might have taken prior to the first rocket attacks. There continue to be steps available that do not include such overwhelming use of force as we see from the Israeli army.

A recognition of the Palestinian State, with concomitant aid to that new state. Working in concert with those nations willing to work with Israel to benefit the cause of peace in that arena.

Full access to Israel for Palestinian workers with open borders.

Removing the settlements from that new state.

War breeds war, not peace.Reacting to a few primitive rockets that cannot even be aimed with any degree of accuracy and seldom hit a damn thing, with such violence and vehemence is a guarantee of further attacks not a way civilized people end conflict, whether in Jerusalem or Peoria. It might even be seen as being motivated by imperialstic expansion aims rather than as self defense.

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By Inherit The Wind, November 8, 2009 at 6:30 am Link to this comment

Obama is now operatively supporting Israeli settlements by pressing the Palestianians to negotiate while their land and homes are taken from them, making a political theater of peace talks.  the Israeli leadership has moved to the right so much that they openly reject a two state solution, and the opeeratively US backs them, obscuring the support by political rhetoric.

The only historical alernative is a war leading to a one state solution.
*******************************************

Despite your frankly dishonest repeated statements about me, I actually agree with this—and I’ve been SAYING the Right in Israel is sabotaging the 2-state solution.  If they sabotage it, then I fear that this 60 year war will go on for another 100 years—and neither possible outcome of that war is, IMHO, good for Israel.

Therefore I have proven that your assertions about me are false—because if they were true I could not and would not agree with this, but would, instead, present some apologist excuse.

RD: Are you saying that ANY response to rocket attacks was fundamentally wrong or that there WERE military responses Israel could have taken in Gaza that you WOULD accept? (but that they chose much more illegal ones…) If so, what military response to the attacks would YOU have recommended Israel take?

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By ardee, November 8, 2009 at 5:42 am Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind, November 8 at 1:00 am

I think that your statement; that some hold Israel to a differing standard than they do the rest of the Middle East if not the world is not completely inaccurate. Political motivations make for twisting of logic, we all, you and I as well, are guilty of that, human nature perhaps.

I would offer that you, and others, chiefly Sepharad, do the same thing in reverse. Your noting of the several dozen rocket attacks, which do indeed kill, one or two sometimes, are justification for the wholesale slaughter of Palestinians by the IDF, the firing of White Phosphorous, bombs and rockets into crowded urban environments seems such to me.

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By Folktruther, November 8, 2009 at 2:17 am Link to this comment

I didn’t expect history to move so fast.  the US house just passed an Aipac resolution urging Obama to ignore the Goldstone resolution.  Obama is now operatively supporting Israeli settlements by pressing the Palestianians to negotiate while their land and homes are taken from them, making a political theater of peace talks.  the Israeli leadership has moved to the right so much that they openly reject a two state solution, and the opeeratively US backs them, obscuring the support by political rhetoric.

The only historical alernative is a war leading to a one state solution.  obama just created another historical quagmire, as he did in Honduras.  this is part of the PNAC strategy to fight several low intensity wars at the same time.  Since in each case the US-Israel is fighting against the population, then brutality to intimidate them is routine: torture, rape, destitution, refugee status, humiliation.

We will live the rest of our lives under these conditions and hand the result over to our children.
The prospect devastates me, not least because it is Jews who are serving the interests of the American plutocratic gangsters.  The only way to maintain any sense of political decency is to fight the successor to the Nazi approach to Western imperialism, not to tackitly or openly to be a part of it.

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By Inherit The Wind, November 7, 2009 at 9:00 pm Link to this comment

Define “Israeli Oppression”.
If you define it as their current actions to take more and more of the West Bank, then I agree.

If you define it as responding to rocket attacks from Gaza, then I DON’T agree.

If you define it as the actions taken in Gaza that are currently being charged as crimes by the UN then I agree.

If you define it as the existence of Israel per se (Like EH and PH do) than I TOTALLY disagree.

But it is totally intellectually dishonest to hold Israel as a nation to a different standard than Saudi Arabia, or Yeman or Libya.  Which is what you have always done.

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By Folktruther, November 7, 2009 at 7:21 pm Link to this comment

that’s the only thing you can do, Inherit, and it will get worse.  I state that you are intellectually dishonest, you respond by stating I am intellectually dishonest.  I say you are ignorant about marxism, you say I am ignorant.  I criticize Zionism, and you say I hate all Jews.  Its the Aipac and right wing approach to truth.

Elisa provided support for Hedges statements and you simply ignored them. You can’t argue on the basis of the reality based truth because the facts are against you.  and what is true for you is true for the entire Ameriecan power system as it sinks into barbarism, with the support of ziofascissts.  All you, and they, can do is to try to intimidate and isntill fear, what Chomsky calls the Mafia principle.

I know that you don’t like the oppression of the Palestinians, but you will go along with it, just as you tried to divert attention away from the military progrom of Gaza.  With the US now supporting the settlements in Palestine, a two-state solution is no longer viable.  So you will justify US-Israeli barbarism until the Israeli state is destroyed in a few decades.  And you will lie about it and smear honest truthers more as the end approaches.

Unless of course you change justification for Israeli oppression.  But that is unlikely.

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By Inherit The Wind, November 7, 2009 at 2:37 pm Link to this comment

I’M intellectually dishonest you phony, fact-fabricating pretentious liar?  You think you have the “key” to understanding the world just like Christian96 does, but at least HE is honest enough to admit he acts based on faith in the unseen, the unknown and the unknowable.  You don’t, yet you have faith in a flawed analysis that is not just wrong again and again, it’s ALWAYS wrong. 

Your analysis has as much basis in fact as insisting that pouring water in your car’s gas tank is no different than pouring in gas.  Yeah, it’s that bogus.

You have made up and posted MORE shit that wasn’t true about me than ALL the other posters here together. I can correct your lies 100 times and you’ll just repeat them again.

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By Folktruther, November 7, 2009 at 2:39 am Link to this comment

Oh, we agree about some things, Inherit, and disagree about others.  But what we do agree about, as do many other commenteers, is that you are intellectually dishonest.  You have to be being a neozionist lemming, since zionist violence and oppression can only legitimated by deceit and diversion.

and it will get worse, since Obama has just legitmated Israel’s settlement policy, gutting the possibility of the two state solution.  Which historically dooms Israel as a separate state. As the US-Israel power systems descend rapidly into barbariam, you will have to join the other neozionists in lying about the obvious oppression that Israel-US will engage in, and possibly the Samson Option with nulear weapons that Seymour Hirsch wrote about in the eartly 1990’s.

  As truthers like Hirsch and Hedges tell the reality -based truth, and Lisa and myself, you will have to make up more stories that we are drunk or intellectually dishonest, or paranoid.  As Aipac ahd Horriwitz does when they cannot censor honest truthers.  You are all trapped into a policy that requires lies to implement, and as people learn the truth, yours will become more vehmanant and wild, like the Gop religious truthers.

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By Inherit The Wind, November 6, 2009 at 9:44 pm Link to this comment

elisalouisa, November 6 at 1:03 am #

Mr. Wind: I have offered factual statements written by Mr. Hedges’ as to his
concern for women in Afghanistan, twice as Folktruther states. It is you who
refuse to accept this and continually attack Mr. Hedges in a charade of long
winded(thus the name Mr. Wind) statements that make no sense. Folktruther is
passionate about the truth thus living up to his name Folktruther. Just remember
than Mr. Wind.

***********************************************

Hey! FT! You got yourself a cheering section!  Or should I say, your very own apologist.  Lucky you.
She even believes the constant and myriad lies you regularly tell about me.

As Bugs Bunny would say “What a Maroon!”

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By Folktruther, November 6, 2009 at 9:14 pm Link to this comment

You shouldn’t let cheap slurs bother you, Elisa.  As the US descends into barbarism, the Prog non-movement is splitting historically into a pro-war-anti-war faction, a pro-equality-anti-equality faction and a pro-reason and anti-reason faction.  the equality, anti-war and truth faction will be a minority, since the Amereican media favors inequality, war and irratinality.

The inequality requires violence to maintain it and the irrationality and delusion disguise and legitmate both the violence and inequality it defends.  The wild absurdities of the right are now being legiitmated by the leaders and truthers of the Dems.  This will increase as the wars and distitution increases.  The deceit is the least of it.  The US power structure has become gangsterfied, and is destroying the future of our children.

As soon as our children realize it, deceit will be the least of burdens we will have to bear.

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LocalHero's avatar

By LocalHero, November 6, 2009 at 4:09 am Link to this comment

Certainly it has dawned on Mr. Hedges that the C.I.A. is actually the facilitator of the production of drugs in Afghanistan (& elsewhere) and not just innocent bystanders who are doing their level-best to put a stop to it. All those buck-generating-poppies pay for a web of Black-Ops, Psy-Ops and, for all we know, Cyclops grin

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By elisalouisa, November 5, 2009 at 9:03 pm Link to this comment

Mr. Wind: I have offered factual statements written by Mr. Hedges’ as to his
concern for women in Afghanistan, twice as Folktruther states. It is you who
refuse to accept this and continually attack Mr. Hedges in a charade of long
winded(thus the name Mr. Wind) statements that make no sense. Folktruther is
passionate about the truth thus living up to his name Folktruther. Just remember
than Mr. Wind.

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By Inherit The Wind, November 5, 2009 at 5:26 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther:

You should learn not to drink and post.  You only sound like an idiot whenever you do it.

All you did was restate every insulting fantasy you’ve made up about me over the last year or so.  It’s not an argument: it’s the vomitus of a drunken .....whatever.

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By Folktruther, November 5, 2009 at 12:07 pm Link to this comment

Inherit, I realize that Hedges does not have the intellectual and moral stature of Ayn Rand in your eyes, and does not exemplify REASON the way she does, or the way you think she does.  Apparently Hedges also dooes not have her moral integrity, of that of the neoziosts that you espouse, who would never, ever tell a lie or attribute to their oppoenents falsely assertions that they did not utter.

Everyone, after all, is familiar with Aipacs intellectual integrity.  and we of course are familair with yours.

But, inherit, you have smeared Hedges as being intellectually dishonest because of his assertions about women.  and Elisa has offered a factual basis for supporting him.  Twice, as a matter of fact, exhibing a patience and devotion that I for one do not possess.  She has exhibited a devotion to the truth and decent values that I find admirable, but that you have not responded to. 

Is it because she is anti-semitic for refuting your smears?  Do you think that she hates all Jews, as you have stated that I do, that you have not responded?  Certainly if you have wronged Hedges, an honorable debater like yourself would apologize. 

Ask yourself, inherit, what would Ayn Rand do?  You have learned your marxism from Ayn, does she have anything to say about truthers like Hedges?  Your defense of women is certainly not in doubt, except of course for the women currently being starved in Gaza and the West Bank.  and everyone knows your intellectual and moral standards compared to Hedges.  What is your view of Elisa’s assertions?  Inquiring minds want to know.

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, November 5, 2009 at 7:42 am Link to this comment

ITW,

Had to read Hedges article twice, which for me is usually a nose holding task the first time!

Hedges says: “War cannot be waged to instill any virtue, including democracy or the liberation of women”.

If one is to disagree with the above sentence, the first part of the sentence may be fodder for flailing, rather than the second?

Seems the question is, can war instill any virtue, or as Hedges presupposed, it cannot? 

It seems Hedges is using examples of the propaganda which has repeatedly and selectively shoved down the peoples throats.

Women from what we are fed have some freedoms they did not have before, but it seems limited to areas controlled by the corrupt President Hamid Karzai, from what we are told is just a small token area? One is lead to believe the Talaban control the most of Afganistan?

In the end it seems the USA is selecting it’s supported corruption of choice. My question as Hedges eludes to,  should our country pay for this with our troops lives?

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By ardee, November 5, 2009 at 4:16 am Link to this comment

ITW

Methinks you miss the intent of Mr. Hedges towards woman’s rights…I suggest that, from the very first paragraph in fact, Hedges takes a definitive stance for said rights.

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By elisalouisa, November 4, 2009 at 8:56 pm Link to this comment

ITW:I’m just saying it’s blatantly obvious that being able to go to school and not
having to walk around looking like a blue traffic cone even in blistering
summer heat is DEFINITELY a significant improvement, that cannot be denied,
but Hedges does.
************************
My post November 3 at 2:52pm describes in some detail the law that Karzai
signed and was effective 8/24/09. It contained articles that rule women cannot
leave the house without their husbands’ permission, that they can only seek
work, education or visit the doctor with their husbands’ permission and also
what was previously mentioned that the law grants custody of children to the
fathers and grandfathers only. Senator Humaira Namati stated that the law was
“worse than during the Taliban”. Senator Humaira who is a member of the
upper house of the Afghan parliament stated that the law that Hamid Karzai
signed is worse than under the Taliban Our mainstream media makes no
mention of this fact. Mr. Hedges does.

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By Inherit The Wind, November 4, 2009 at 8:28 pm Link to this comment

RD:
Since your last post I haven’t seen anything worth discussing by anyone else.

When someone says “The sun rises in the West, passes across the sky and sets in the East” it’s not an opinion to say his “fact” is flat out wrong and he can’t build a valid argument off of it.

I’m not saying it’s great for women under Karzai, or even good. I’m just saying it’s blatantly obvious that being able to go to school and not having to walk around looking like a blue traffic cone even in blistering summer heat is DEFINITELY a significant improvement, that cannot be denied, but Hedges does.

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By diamond, November 4, 2009 at 3:31 pm Link to this comment

I remember a book or it might have been an episode of The Twilight Zone, which is perfectly applicable to this discussion, in which the government gave the people a drink called Soma which made them docile , confused and incapable of independent thought or action.

Yes, Karzi is corrupt or as the New York Times puts it ‘stunningly corrupt’ and his brother is a drug lord and they’re both on the CIA’s payroll but you have to take it back to the source. It might seem that the mafia has disappeared but that’s only because they’ve been absorbed into so called normal American society via their teamwork with the CIA and the elites. Janet Reno once called the head of a notorious money laundering bank into her office and told him the bank should stop laundering so much money. She didn’t tell him to stop because she knew that if the banks stopped laundering money tomorrow the mutual funds would collapse and they hold the retirement money of millions of Americans.

If it wasn’t true that every institution in America has been completely corrupted by the proceeds of crime an operation like 9/11 could never have been planned in the heart of the government and carried out by the very forces that are paid billions of dollars of taxpayers’ money to protect America from attack. Nor could Wall Street’s top players have bought put options on the airlines involved that day and call options on companies that make cruise missiles, in the days leading up to 9/11,  knowing that war was now coming. Afghanistan is not the disease it’s just a symptom of the disease.

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By Thong-girl, November 4, 2009 at 11:09 am Link to this comment

The government of the U.S.A. is the biggest supplier of illegal heroin, opium, cocaine, meth, ice, you-name-it to the American people.  That’s a fact jack and if you don’t believe it, you aren’t conscious.  If you consider that all those drugs are far more plentiful, far less expensive and with far fewer busts than ever before in our history, how the hell do you think they are getting into this country, getting distributed and turning your children into junkies? You can buy boatloads in any state in the country and the prices are cheap.  The Pentagon makes sure these are truly affordable.

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By Thong-girl, November 4, 2009 at 10:57 am Link to this comment

Chris Hedges makes a great argument for Richard Dawkins, “The Selfish Gene,” though I doubt he understands it, and since he doesn’t understand evolution, his take is oblique and not understandable.  He continues to feign outrage over the way men behave, though he seems to think it can be changed?  Oh, if he were only right.

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By elisalouisa, November 4, 2009 at 8:26 am Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind
It is typical of Hedges to build an argument on false premises. It is my ongoing
criticism of him.  He starts with the assertion that the Taliban is no different in
its actions than the other groups, and he specifically cites the treatment of
women. 
***********************
In my post of November 3 at 2:52 pm I pointed out where a law effective
8/14/09 signed by Karzai grants custody of children to fathers and
grandfathers only. Yet you claim that Karzai is better than others in
Afghanistan as to women’s rights??? What pray tell could denigrate a woman
more than have no right to her child????
The most basic right that is a natural right of a woman is
the right to her children. Yet a law that went into effect on August 14 of this
year tears children away from their mother. What would that six year old girl
that you mention in a previous post who knows love and all that is life through
her mother think of that and what lasting affect would that leave?
As to Hedges, you must have a personal vendetta against him, perhaps about
his personal beliefs thus there is a built-in bias as to your ability to
comprehend Mr. Hedges’ columns.  He does not write his columns on blatant
falsehoods as you state. Would that other columnists in the mainstream media
possess the moral fiber of Mr. Hedges. As I stated in my first paragraph, the
most basic right of a woman is to her child, yet, our so called advanced society
prides itself on backing a man who just recently signed a law that denied that
basic right to women. Who else but Mr. Hedges has pointed that out?

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By ardee, November 4, 2009 at 5:37 am Link to this comment

Hedges disqualifies himself by starting with falsehoods as premises.
**********************************************

One persons falsehoods are anothers truths. I find Hedges to be a bit on the 4emotional side but not untruthful. You disagree.

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By Inherit The Wind, November 4, 2009 at 4:51 am Link to this comment

ardee, November 4 at 8:10 am #

Inherit the Wind posts:

Hedges has an agenda, just like Rush Limbaugh or Glen Beck or Sean Hannity, and he’ll bend facts to fit it, just like they will.

It is called an editorial look up that definition as you seem cloudy on its meaning. You post as if you yourself do not have an agenda here…or that such as an agenda is an uncommon thing in politics…How silly an argument is this?

Methinks you care little for Hedges because he fails to fall in line with your own belief systems. He has a rather substantial resume as a war correspondent and writes from that experience. Do you?
**************************************************

Of COURSE I know he has an agenda—that’s OK. But what makes a good opinion piece, even if I TOTALLY disagree with the POV of the editorial, is the ability to build an argument on premises that can be confirmed.

To state blatant falsehoods as part of your initial premises and then to build your argument upon them is to create a completely discountable “opinion”.

I remember picking up one of the Coulter-geist’s pieces of trash in Borders (damned if I’ll BUY her POS!) and this is what I saw: 1) she states a “fact” that’s recognizable but only partially true and makes an absurd extrapolation from it. 2) she states a fact that is COMPLETELY false and makes another absurd extrapolation from that. 3) She then combines her extrapolations to suggest AS FACT a totally ridiculous position.  It’s not just her opinion I object to: it’s her intellectually dishonest way of reaching it.

I may actually AGREE with much of Hedges’ conclusions. But I dislike his continuous intellectual dishonesty to get there.  Go back and look at his article on pornography, and the absurd statements he makes about self-pleasuring.

Hedges disqualifies himself by starting with falsehoods as premises.

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By ardee, November 4, 2009 at 4:10 am Link to this comment

Inherit the Wind posts:

Hedges has an agenda, just like Rush Limbaugh or Glen Beck or Sean Hannity, and he’ll bend facts to fit it, just like they will.

It is called an editorial look up that definition as you seem cloudy on its meaning. You post as if you yourself do not have an agenda here…or that such as an agenda is an uncommon thing in politics…How silly an argument is this?

Methinks you care little for Hedges because he fails to fall in line with your own belief systems. He has a rather substantial resume as a war correspondent and writes from that experience. Do you?

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thebeerdoctor's avatar

By thebeerdoctor, November 4, 2009 at 12:42 am Link to this comment

To Whom It May Concern: If promoting peace and an end to violence, and all the unnecessary suffering that goes with it is considered having an agenda. Then I have an agenda.
“War is the total failure of the human spirit.”
Robert Fisk

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By rollzone, November 3, 2009 at 7:43 pm Link to this comment

hello. wot happn’d on 9/11. rights fo women. opium. i do not know Afghanistan. i read it is a poor, backwards, tribal consortium of mostly women and elderly men. the young men are dead. their government wants to attract young men into the population by offering wife slaves. this is a very attractive consideration. this is no time for lesbian rights or power to the baby machines. they just need to get busy and raise big families. being so poor that basic public utilities are nonexistent, and infant mortality rates are high; they need to get super busy. the poppy plant is a highly profitable cash crop because heroin is illegal. until the insurgent husbands have another employment opportunity besides tribal crop worker or militant security guard, the situation will remain the same. an industry, tribal jackals would excel at: is local gang warlords. we should begin offering them positions here. that is the insanity of pretending we are bringing democracy, or human rights to a region; through murderous slaughter. religions used to establish monastic prisons, and slowly entice and incorporate people into their society; as if it were destiny, and the will of God. today, in our need for speed, we crumble earth and inhabitants, and pave a new society: as if the people are collateral consequences. it is a ravenous war machine and reconstruction industry, in the image of the DOLLAR, and that is all these men idolize. in time, if the world comes to live with us in the United States of America, then we will have changed the world to our ways. we have no business nor right imposing it upon others. what was the outcome of the war vote in Congress? when did they declare war on Afghanistan? we should not be there, and heroin should be legal. the same number of people without health care would be heroin junkies. build a center and let them go get high for as long as they need to. the centers will cost us less than health care reform. then there will be no ill consequences on society from them supporting their dependence, or otherwise negatively interacting in society. it would become a legitimate crop. the corruption would move elsewhere. change to make this a better society to live in. give people back their rights. even when you do not agree with it, and it only harms the doer. we should protect only those unable to protect themselves. heroin abusers want to do this to themselves. they say yes, i want to do this to myself. provide ways to protect society without removing individual freedoms. show the Afghaniis that this IS a better society to live in than huts without plumbing, because we still have our rights.

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By Inherit The Wind, November 3, 2009 at 6:27 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther, November 3 at 2:09 pm #

Oh, don’t worry about Inherit, Samson.  He learned his idea of truth from Aipac.  He is a semi-neozionist who argues on the basis of personal sleaze and false attribution to his opponents of absrurd truths which he then attacks.  The neozionists are in favor of war; usually by pretending that they are against war, and attacking truthers like Hedges who are really against it.

The neozionists we will always have with us until they destroy Israel, but, since they are losing power, there attacks are getting wilder and more irrational.  It is a badge of honor to be attacked by them.
************************************************

So….I’m promoting war by PRETENDING to be AGAINST it?

What….are you like the Viet Nam War general who said “we had to destroy the village in order to save it”?

if the unending stream of amazingly creative contradictory illogic that flows from your keyboard could be harnessed as an energy source, we’d never need to import another gallon of oil!

You used to be good at insults…now you aren’t even clever about them anymore.  Must be the stress of being wrong 95% of the time.

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By STORMY7, November 3, 2009 at 1:01 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Three thousand died on 911. How many hundreds of thousands does the USA have to murder to make up for are loss?
Our government was involved in 911. It surely wasn’t the first time our government murdered it’d own people to control the masses with fear. Google… Project For A New American Century. This plan need a big event to get the ball rolling.
We need a REAL investigation of what happened on 911.

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By elisalouisa, November 3, 2009 at 10:52 am Link to this comment

Mr. Hedges writes in paragraph 8:
These fundamentalists during the so-called free elections made a misogynist
law against Shia women in Afghanistan. This law has even been signed by
Hamid Karzai. All these crimes are happening under the name of democracy.”
****************************
‘A column in The Guardian.co.uk 31 March 2009 by Jon Bonne titled ‘Worse
than the Taliban’ states that a new law rolls back rights for Afghan Women. The
article goes on to say that:
‘Hamid Karzai has been accused of trying to win votes in Afghanistan’s
presidential election by backing a law the UN says legalises rape within
marriage and bans wives from stepping outside their homes without their
husbands’ permission.
The Afghan president signed the law earlier this month, despite condemnation
by human rights activists and some MPs that it flouts the constitution’s equal
rights provisions.‘The final document has not been published, but the law is
believed to contain articles that rule women cannot leave the house without
their husbands’ permission, that they can only seek work, education or visit the
doctor with their husbands’ permission, and that they cannot refuse their
husband sex.
A briefing document prepared by the United Nations Development Fund for
Women also warns that the law grants custody of children to fathers and
grandfathers only.
Senator Humaira Namati, a member of the upper house of the Afghan
parliament, said the law was “worse than during the Taliban”. “Anyone who
spoke out was accused of being against Islam,” she said.’
This law went into effect August 14, 2009.
The real issue is control of Afghanistan, that is what this war is about.

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By Leefeller, November 3, 2009 at 10:44 am Link to this comment

One could use the same argument towards what is called a democratic Republic, for the abuses by the representatives would seem to be making Democracy an oxymoron connected with Republic. Abuse of the word Democracy, is in the very practice of its own sponsors.  Democracy as used by powers that be, who seemingly kidnapped and have deviated the word from it’s original intent and meaning, as witnessed often in casual use of the word Democracy. 

Possibility I may be wrong, for being a person who does not regularity listen to the MSM, maybe I missed the many times it may have been told by the those making the decisions of public relations promotions for public policy, when it seems having heard many times “we are spreading Democracy around the world”  when in fact, I may have been missing the news worthy comment “we are spreading Republics around the world”!

Would a “republic empire” also be an oxymoron?

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By Folktruther, November 3, 2009 at 10:09 am Link to this comment

Oh, don’t worry about Inherit, Samson.  He learned his idea of truth from Aipac.  He is a semi-neozionist who argues on the basis of personal sleaze and false attribution to his opponents of absrurd truths which he then attacks.  The neozionists are in favor of war; usually by pretending that they are against war, and attacking truthers like Hedges who are really against it.

The neozionists we will always have with us until they destroy Israel, but, since they are losing power, there attacks are getting wilder and more irrational.  It is a badge of honor to be attacked by them.

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By FinalChapter, November 3, 2009 at 9:54 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

All the diversions and fall backs to dump on Afghanistan. Hmmmmm ... why?

Well it cost US taxpayers 320 Million bucks a day to supply Marines with gasoline - and that’s just the Marines. Larry Silverstein’s mortgage on the WTC complex, acquired Aug 2001, for which his very unique terror from the sky insurance policy paid off billions, was less than the daily dose of gas we feed the Marines!

Of course we had the back channel rumors - a pipeline - to bump the cost of oil - all very good for lame brain big box store types. Let’s see oil is 60$ a barrel, heroine is a million bucks a barrel - hmmmmm - where to invest - where to invest?

Then we learn that Osama, despite US media claims of an alleged boast that he brought down the towers, in fact, publicly denied, twice, he had anything to do with it. Even the FBI admits they do not have any evidence to indict Osama for 911. Heck, Bush and Minetta even shut down the US airspace so we could fly Osama’s family back to the land of the very well marketed Saudi hijackers!

To complete the comedy of greed and corruption we got belly laugh humor from the low iodines zoglo-tumors at NIST, whom, without much fanfare, invented a new branch of physics, “thermal expansion”, to explain what Silverstein had already confessed as a “pull”, to explain the free fall of WTC 7. The magical prescient BBC reported that magical event 20 minutes before it happened! 911 was magic!

So magical, in fact, our national budget is 54% defense - and the rest went to the banksters! What a scardy cat nation of fascist sucking putter-dunks we’ve become.

Don’t forget: Everybody hates us for our freedom!

Abracadabra suckers!

I found a great montage of why we’re in Afghanistan here:
http://www.fattail.org/viewtopic.php?pid=17655#p17655

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By Samson, November 3, 2009 at 9:27 am Link to this comment

“a most noble democratic building of an empire.”

Now, there’s an oxymoron for you.  “democratic empire”.

‘Democracy’ is of course the governmental system where sovereignty and power belong with the people.  Power flows ‘bottom-up’ from the people to the rulers.

‘Empire’ is of course just the opposite, where powerful people try to subject and rule others.

There is no such thing, and can never be a ‘democratic’ empire.

After all, the first thing a ‘democratic’ empire would have to do is to hold a free, fair, and non-corrupt election to allow the people to decide whether they wanted to rule themselves, or to be ruled from afar.  ‘Empire’ would always lose to ‘freedom’ in such a free and fair election.

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By Samson, November 3, 2009 at 9:10 am Link to this comment

Inherit the wind is full of it, as usual.  And he starts with the typical propaganda technique of distorting his opponents views.

Chris Hedges is a former war correspondent who spent years in war zones.  So, in this piece, he doesn’t ‘start’ with assumptions about the Taliban.  Instead, Mr. Hedges begins with with what he’s learned first hand from wars.

“War cannot be waged to instill any virtue, including democracy or the liberation of women. War always empowers those who have a penchant for violence and access to weapons. War turns the moral order upside down and abolishes all discussions of human rights. War banishes the just and the decent to the margins of society. And the weapons of war do not separate the innocent and the damned. An aerial drone is our version of an improvised explosive device. An iron fragmentation bomb is our answer to a suicide bomb. A burst from a belt-fed machine gun causes the same terror and bloodshed among civilians no matter who pulls the trigger. “

Of course, Mr. Hedges points out what anyone who looks closely at a war can see. 

“The moral lines we draw between us and our adversaries are fictional. The uplifting narratives used to justify the war in Afghanistan are pathetic attempts to redeem acts of senseless brutality.”

When someone tries to ignore all of this, and instead uses the Rush Limbaugh technique of creating a fictional argument for their opponent against which they then wage their arguments, that’s a sure sign of someone trying to manipulate opinion.

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By Samson, November 3, 2009 at 9:05 am Link to this comment

You can tell a good author that is telling the truth by the fact that the first posts under their columns is always personal attacks on the author.

Remember, there are lobbyists, PR firms, and others who are paid to watch for certain items and then wage their PR war in the comments.

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By Leefeller, November 3, 2009 at 8:54 am Link to this comment

Corruption seems a most usual connect to politics and nation building the USA way.  Hedges article this week seems to emulate my views in many ways, of course with some differences.

Malalai Joya’s comments may answer ITW’s comments about women rights in Afghanistan, though her comments seem mild compared to the Veterans against more troops in Afghanistan. Mililai Joya comments have little if any way of being confirmed, of course this is due to the MSM who isn’t going to do it for her. We see little of the Veterans or of Malalai Joya in the news, of course not! They are not in support of the program.

So, building of an empire has a different meanings. Some people and as I see this as one more assembly of corruption,  to others they see a most noble democratic building of an empire. Amusing in saying, but not in the savagery of death.

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