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Globalization Goes Bankrupt

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Posted on Sep 20, 2009
G-20 protest zone
AP / Gene J. Puskar

Free-speech zone?: The David L. Lawrence Convention Center in Pittsburgh, where the G-20 global economic summit will be held Thursday and Friday, as seen from the parking lot, which is being leased by the city as the only sanctioned area for protesters to gather within sight of the center.

By Chris Hedges

(Page 2)

But the game is up. The utopian dreams of globalization have been exposed as a sham. Force is all the elite have left. We are living through one of civilization’s great seismic reversals. The ideology of globalization, like all utopias that are sold as inevitable and irreversible, has become a farce. The power elite, perplexed and confused, cling to the disastrous principles of globalization and its outdated language to mask the political and economic vacuum before us. The absurd idea that the marketplace alone should determine economic and political constructs caused the crisis. It led the G-20 to sacrifice other areas of human importance—from working conditions, to taxation, to child labor, to hunger, to health and pollution—on the altar of free trade. It left the world’s poor worse off and the United States with the largest deficits in human history. Globalization has become an excuse to ignore the mess. It has left a mediocre elite desperately trying to save a system that cannot be saved and, more important, trying to save itself. “Speculation,” then-President Jacques Chirac of France once warned, “is the AIDS of our economies.” We have reached the terminal stage. 

“Each of Globalization’s strengths has somehow turned out to have an opposing meaning,” John Ralston Saul wrote in “The Collapse of Globalism.” “The lowering of national residency requirements for corporations has morphed into a tool for massive tax evasion. The idea of a global economic system mysteriously made local poverty seem unreal, even normal. The decline of the middle class—the very basis of democracy—seemed to be just one of those things that happen, unfortunate but inevitable. That the working class and the lower middle class, even parts of the middle class, could only survive with more than one job per person seemed to be expected punishment for not keeping up. The contrast between unprecedented bonuses for mere managers at the top and the four-job families below them seemed inevitable in a globalized world. For two decades an elite consensus insisted that unsustainable third-world debts could not be put aside in a sort of bad debt reserve without betraying Globalism’s essential principles and moral obligations, which included an unwavering respect for the sanctity of international contracts. It took the same people about two weeks to abandon sanctity and propose bad debt banks for their own far larger debts in 2009.”

The institutions that once provided alternative sources of power, including the press, government, agencies of religion, universities and labor unions, have proved morally bankrupt. They no longer provide a space for voices of moral autonomy. No one will save us now but ourselves.

“The best thing that happened to the Establishment is the election of a black president,” Holmes said. “It will contain people for a given period of time, but time is running out. Suppose something else happens? Suppose another straw breaks? What happens when there is a credit card crisis or a collapse in commercial real estate? The financial system is very, very fragile. The legs are being kicked out from underneath it.”

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“Obama is in trouble,” Holmes went on. “The economic crisis is a structural crisis. The recovery is only a recovery for Wall Street. It can’t be sustained, and Obama will be blamed for it. He is doing everything Wall Street demands. But this will be a dead end. It is a prescription for disaster, not only for Obama but the Democratic Party. It is only groups like ours that provide hope. If labor unions will get off their ass and stop focusing on narrow legislation for their members, if they will go back to being social unions that embrace broad causes, we have a chance of effecting change. If this does not happen it will be a right-wing disaster.”

Chris Hedges’ latest book is “Empire of Illusion: The End of Literacy and the Triumph of Spectacle.” His weekly column appears Mondays on Truthdig.


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Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, September 29, 2009 at 10:24 pm Link to this comment

I am not defending Iran should they actually be constructing nuclear weapons, which there is no proof. However when was the last time Iran attacked anyone? It was Iraq who attacked them in 1980. It is Israel who can actually carry out mass murder and has done so to the helpless countries around it. So yes I find what Acmadinajad says is reprehensible, and a pathetic wail of the weak against a stronger opponent that can hit them.

Israel started this with their illegal nuclear arsenal. By doing so they are promoting the very thing they are frightened of, parity. However again there is no proof Iran is working on them but they are so put upon by Israel’s big benefactor the USA. Watch out for the fanatics that don’t talk, but actually do. Ones who can kill millions. Israel is the Sampson-Goliath in this story with no one to stop them so far.

The risk is that the Israeli leaders will decide the only way to safely hit such a huge country is to actually use nuclear weapons. A great risk because some of the radioactive dust could blow back to them.

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By elisalouisa, September 29, 2009 at 9:43 pm Link to this comment

There must be certain unspoken rules that are in play Night-Gaunt. I have seen
some media guests mention Israel’s nuclear weapons but only for a few seconds
because that guest’s time is quickly up or a commercial break must be taken. Size
of a country or population no longer matters. Drones can murder many people.
Technical capabilities have been refined as have our nuclear weapons and
also Israel’s. When Cheney and Bush were insisting that Iraq had WMDs, all the
news services confirmed that except one, Reuters, who maintained they just did
not see it. News channels owners hire anchors who will sway the watchers toward
the owner’s political beliefs. Thus they control the people. But of course, you
know that.

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, September 29, 2009 at 9:09 pm Link to this comment

Okay, that bolding is my fault. I apologize, also my computer and
browsers are acting up and I hope you will tolerate it while I fix the
problem.  I was just told by a friendly poster that my comments were
showing up weirdly formatted.  Now you might think I am a weird poster
You will have to suffer that, but that is not the problem. It is technical. 
Looks like I will have to make this apology on all the forums where I’ve
commented.  Yikes.

Report this
Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, September 29, 2009 at 9:06 pm Link to this comment

NIght-Gaunt, you know I respect your views and comments.  However, when I
look at a map it hardly shows Israel as existing at all within the region named the
Middle East.  If you don’t think it is insane of Iran to develop nuclear weapons,
then I’m afraid you are right in imagining another holocaust only this time all of
the middle east will be destroyed and I believe it would be Iran to flex their
capability first, not Israel. Have you been listening to the dialogue coming out of
Iran?  The fanaticism is deafening.  They are the ones calling for the destruction
Israel.  They are the ones arming the Hezbolla in Lebanon, Hamas in the
Palestinian territories.

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Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, September 29, 2009 at 8:36 pm Link to this comment

Curious how those who do appear on the corporate networks never mention that arsenal ever. I wonder if they are told ahead of time that it is forbidden to do so or no more show times? I bet so.

They talk as if Iran will destabilize the area if they should ever get nukes! When we know that it is Israel that has and they want to keep that hegemonic control and will start a war to do it. Can you imagine the problems here if Israel did that and Iran retaliated? We would easily slip into the abyss we just barely missed before. Nothing has been fixed so we are just waiting to go over into a full blown Greater Depression, worse than it was in 1929 but maybe as bad as 1873*. [*Martial law in several states and battle in the streets between strikers and local militias backed by Federal troops. Terrible fires.]

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By ardee, September 29, 2009 at 3:50 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous, September 29 at 7:36 am #

Poetic justice, ardee?
..........

What a terrible thing to say…:-) Of course not, not justice at all in fact. Justice would be a single state solution wherein both Palestinian and Jew, cousins in fact, live in peace and prosperity.

Or am I having a cod piece/merkin moment again?

Night-Gaunt, September 29 at 11:53 am

Scapegoating, certainly, and disguising the real motivations behind such support for the heinous actions of the Israeli govt.

We armed Israel because we wanted a strong military presence near all that yummy oil,now they have an estimated 200-300 nuclear devices, about which we hear not a peep. Neocons want that presence, the weapons makers want the market, the bigots want to promote hatred..Its a win win for sure!

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By Night-Gaunt, September 29, 2009 at 8:53 am Link to this comment

No Ardee it is scape goating. The Jews don’t run the earth, if that were true then they would never have been persecuted in so many places. For the longest time in Christian countries and it was the Islamics who protected them! King Casimier of Poland was the Christian exception during the plague years when the Christians of the Germanies and Switzerland were burning Jews in immolation as the cause of the mass deaths. How things can change in just 700 years!

As I stated before many of the Christians who are Zionists want to convert Jews to a bastardized form of Judaism. Not the same as the various types of Zionists in Israel. When Zionism was coined in 1893 it meant for a homeland for Jews alone, or dominated by them. Some wish to have that now and they are deciding how much of the land is “theirs” that others at present live on. But when you have a mandate from a god, you can do anything in its name. Some just wish to settle and live others wish to take and settle. The leaders of Israel are of the more dangerous and militant latter variety.

Should war break out it could also be the time for those kinds of Zionists to remove the remainder of Palestinians in their way by massive force out of their country and kill the rest. When the war started in 1939 Himmler and company used the war as a reason to kill all undesirables, Jews, homosexuals, communists, socialists ,Romany etc. instead of letting them leave. (An unfortunate human tendency when others are blamed for everything that the ruling class considers wrong. It has happened with many people, many times over the course of human existence.)

If globalization of the corporate hegemon does succeed that doesn’t mean it will work for us. It will fail for us but work for them! We need it to work for us and fail for them. But can we do it?

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, September 29, 2009 at 4:36 am Link to this comment

Poetic justice, ardee?

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By ardee, September 29, 2009 at 3:19 am Link to this comment

All are zionists.

James returns in his role as hit and run bigot. It seems that the truth is that most of the “Zionists” found on the boards of the multinational companies raping our planet and stealing our children’s future are not Jews at all.

Interestingly, Zionism as a movement is dying as it was intended to gain a homeland for the Jews, which succeeded about sixty years ago. Certainly there are Jews everywhere who are passionate about the existence of the state of Israel, and certainly there are some who work diligently in favor of said state. But the tail doesn’t wag the dog.

A people, who, for thousands of years, were powerless in the face of persecution is suddenly perceived as running the USA…hmmm progress?

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By James, September 28, 2009 at 11:40 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The article states:
“Our global economy, like our political system, has been hijacked by a tiny oligarchy, composed mostly of wealthy white men who serve corporations.”

All are zionists.

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, September 27, 2009 at 7:11 am Link to this comment

ardee please show where I said a merkin was a codpiece?  I think
somebody else may have though.  Are you awake?  I gave two Wikipedia
sites one for merkins the other for codpieces.  Are you sure you are
awake?

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By ardee, September 27, 2009 at 6:52 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous, September 26 at 8:36 am

A merkin was not a cod piece, look it up.

Report this
Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, September 26, 2009 at 5:36 am Link to this comment

Is it a cod piece or a piece of cod?  Have we descended into
conversation about seafood?  (walr) What a laugh riot.

Perhaps the discussion of merkins of the non-‘Merkin type, can be
closed out by saying that a definitive description can be found on
Wikipedia with references but no bibliography, but there are external
links.  Naw the article picture wasn’t so disgusting.  Las Vegas
showgirls and Hollywood stars in nude scenes use them all the time,
and so do prostitutes.  You can also Wikipedia for codpiece,
KDelphi, and there you will find more than you ever wanted to
know (maybe) about male pubic area culture, with a bibliography
included.  Pictures are disgusting.  Sorry, but the Time Magazine article
was removed from the site.  Hahahaha Maybe we could insert the
word cod into our language as well as merkin (yes, pun intended).  Like
cod we get on with our discussion? Laugh laugh. 

So Night-Gaunt, how cod globalization for the common person
work?  Cod those be ‘Merkin common persons in ‘Merka or cod it be
common folks all over th’world?  Truthdippers cod invent a whole new
language.  I would be delighted to stick a piece of raw cod fish in the
eye of corporate leviathans.  Cod we name one so I cod make my
plans?  More ROFLMAO

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By KDelphi, September 25, 2009 at 10:54 pm Link to this comment

Night Guant—when you told me what Merkin was lsat time, I went to wikipedia and there’s a really disgusting photo there of one on a woman, getting ready to do a nude scene. She would look so much better just nude! LOL!

And I guess that that is all I wll say about that!

What, then, is a “cod piece”? j/k

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Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, September 25, 2009 at 10:25 pm Link to this comment

Technically a man or woman could wear a merkin in a role where they are to be nude but not quite so.

If we could have globalization for the common person would be a delight and a stab in the collective eye of the corporate leviathans.

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By KDelphi, September 25, 2009 at 3:17 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous—Ok. lol On the serious note you brought up, it is VERY important and the media is giving it almost no attention. I dont know about the bidet vs biodegradable toilet paper debate, but it COULD be important…I just feel in love with bidets overseas and it is my one luxury—maybe the company is lying about the tsp of water? But since I have one toilet, (shared)I think I’ll allow myself

“On a more serious note, I agree that after this fiasco about health care
reform, the next thing that should occupy each and every middle class
and poor Americans is that decision by the Supreme Court about the
rights of corporations to donate money to political candidates.  It is
even more important than any worry Night-Gaunt often gives us,
usually rightfully so.  I am worried that the people have no voice in the
matter.  Absolutely no voice.  We are helpless before the beast who will
eat us alive.”

This is important, folks…Scheer—you should cover some of this, or did I miss it?

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By Shenonymous, September 25, 2009 at 2:58 pm Link to this comment

KDelphi, KDelphi, you are such a delight, really.  I’ve enjoyed your
posts for ever so long even when we have rather heated conversations. 
If everyone went out and traded in their toilets (I have three) for bidets
at one time, we might have a huge disaster, not only at the city dumps,
but having a lack of plumbers, which we already have a lack of and
people will be stacking up having to go to the bathroom.  The city
would have to rent portables and there would be long long lines and
the city might even go broke because they had not anticipated how
many people had to do their daily constitution (another use of the word
constitution is peeing and BMmmming).  I can just see it now.  It is
possible that you have been without plumbing but you really can’t
expect 300 million Americans and 6 billion Earthlings to do so.  I’ve
hiked a long way up many mountains many times and didn’t have a
toilet, does that count?  We are not regressing are we? And by the way
they are making toilet paper out of biodegradable grain these days, like
rice, etc.  So maybe we ought to go into butt plugs that will slow down
the refuse a bit?  We could form a “Save the Planet Corporation.” 
Yyeeeeaaaahhhh, I did bring up Michael Moore, I think but he is
not important, is he?  It was just a passing comment, please take it as
such (unless you really are Michael Moore, then EXCUSE ME! I made the
comment and I’m sticking to it)

The G20 are 19 heads of governments and I don’t know who the 20th
is.  At least that is what the news reported yesterday.  They were more
interested in Iran and its nuclear program wasn’t it?  I think that was an
important thing to “take care of.” Don’t you, whoever you are?

I am not a Texan, I have never been a Texan, and as far as I’m
concerned Mexico can have it back and I think that would do everybody
a favor if they did.  Uh, to whom were you directing that comment
about Texas KDelphi?  Sorry if I spoke out of turn (well…not too sorry).

My closing remark here, for now, is that from now on when I refer to
the Americans I will call them ‘Merkins.  Bald pubic women need some
good press here!  Their time has come.

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, September 25, 2009 at 2:36 pm Link to this comment

It is hilarious how fur a fur piece for a woman’s pubic area can get
such commentary on TD.  I loved the vignette about Lyndon Johnson,
StuartH.  I might edit it just a tad to say, ”... in opening his pubic
remarks,... His accent caused mimics to shorten that to “Mah Falla
‘Merkins.”
  Thanks for making the rest of the day after a hard day’s
work most amusing. 

On a more serious note, I agree that after this fiasco about health care
reform, the next thing that should occupy each and every middle class
and poor Americans is that decision by the Supreme Court about the
rights of corporations to donate money to political candidates.  It is
even more important than any worry Night-Gaunt often gives us,
usually rightfully so.  I am worried that the people have no voice in the
matter.  Absolutely no voice.  We are helpless before the beast who will
eat us alive.  I’m going to slather myself in alkali so the corporations
will burn up as they choke on my flesh.  Now how is that for
melodrama?  Okay, I’ve made my theatrical joke, but I am dead serious
and I’m dead anyway with all that alkali.  Oh crap.

Report this

By KDelphi, September 25, 2009 at 2:20 pm Link to this comment

By Merkin, I meant to mimic the way most AMERICANS say “American”—especially news media. I could also mean covering a cock,(which is what I thought Night Guant said) as in Chris Matthews. But I think that you know that that is a non-issue. I have no idea why it would bother anyone. Better to remark on my comment as to how in hell we can get enough Merkins in the streets if theyre all waiting for a march the size of the type MLKJr inspired.

No, most of us “out here” did not know that there was such thing as a female pubic hairpiece and still to not know why there is one, since everyone seems to be running out to shave every inch of hair from their bodies. I certainly dont use one…

gerald4—“People working together in an organized fashion are generally more productive than individuals working alone.”

You understand how the concept of community and pooling resources works, but fail to carry out that understanding as to markets and governments.

This thread is so long, my server is really slowing down!!

She, I dont want to go into details, but a European style bidet on your regular plumbing is $50 (one time)and i use it for other than environmental reason-it uses less than a tsp of water. When you mentioned cellphones, blackberries, etc, I understand you were not referring to me because I have neither. Of course I have lived with no plumbing at all, so I know how to do without one.

How did MLKJrt’s marches get to going? Ah, yes, people showed up. And they had faith that others would and they did. We dont seem to have that anymore.

And you brought up Michael Moore, not me.

I dont know that you are correct about a Constitutional Convention. I also dont know that Capitalism is tied to “freedom” (fridom)—ore of the planet, everyday, believes that it is not.Not the G-20 , of course, but who the hell are they?

If you are thinking that my use of Merkin or fridom is a slight on Texas, it is not—at least not on TexANS. Otherwise , I just dont see why you would give a rat’s ass.

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By StuartH, September 25, 2009 at 12:33 pm Link to this comment

Night-Guant:

The etymology of the word, “Merkin” is most likely a reference to Lyndon
Johnson’s accent when he said, “My fellow Americans,” in opening his public
remarks, particularly a televised address from the White House.  His accent
caused mimics to shorten that to “Mah Falla ‘Merkins.”  Current sarcasm might
well use the word “Merkins” without attribution. 

I suspect the future is not going to look like a Mad Max movie.  Nor will it look
like the vision of the 1950s the Republicans all wish for. 

Corporations have been around for a while.  Not that the East India Company
was the featured villain in the last Pirates of the Caribean movie.  How did
Disney get away with this?  Most likely because corporate culture delights in
this heritage. 

Pirates of that period were not necessarily raffish freelancers.  Privateers is a
term from then that reflects on Wall Street freebooting of today.  Pirates in
thousand dollar suits and Ivy League educations are now after much better
booty. 

What I think is missing is that the public has a very poor education in how all
this works.  When people do get educated, they tend to join up for the rather
excellent benefits, rather than work for an alternative system. 

I look for this to be a continued issue into the 22nd century.  the intensity of
this will come from increasing attention to climate science, resource scarcity
issues, and international struggles for economic equity.  This will continue like
the tension building up in the San Andreas fault which could give way today or
a hundred years from now, could go all at once or in a series of minor quakes.

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By gerald4, September 25, 2009 at 12:13 pm Link to this comment

The US International Trade Deficit must be corrected by any means possible! This is the basic structural economic foundation problem that will destroy the US economy.

The USA is losing the Economic War! The USA must re-industrialize, or become a third world nation of mostly unemployed beggars.

The USA has lost the World Technology Leadership! The USA must change the emphasis of our education systems back to technology and science.

The USA is Bankrupt! The USA is selling our privately owned land and other assets that were generated by previous generations to pay for imported products (rather than have US citizens work to produce the things that we consume) and also to pay for growing US government expenses that are in excess of our federal tax collections.

When the USA has no more privately owned land and other assets to sell to foreigners in industrial countries in return for freshly printed US T-Bills, Bonds, or other Securities, those foreigners will not buy more of our freshly printed US T-Bills, Bonds, or other Securities and we will not be able to get any US dollars to pay for our government expenses or our imported consumer products.

The USA is Committing Economic Suicide! The USA will become a third world nation when our US dollar loses all of its purchasing value.

Did the Biblical Abraham squander his assets unwisely and then became hungry and homeless when a famine occurred? Is the USA is repeating this action?

When the Biblical Abraham’s family faced starvation, Abraham took his family to Egypt where there was grain stored and hoarded by the Egyptions to insure the survival of Egyptions during times of drought and famine.

Abraham and his decendants probably submitted themselves to be slaves of the Egyptians in return for food and shelter.

People working together in an organized fashion are generally more productive than individuals working alone. An extended family will live better than a nuclear family. A tribe will live better than an extended family. A nation will live better than a tribe, unless the tribe or nation’s leaders decide to spend the resources unwisely. The US government has decided to spend the US located national wealth unwisely for the past few decades.

Without businesses (and corporations) providing jobs, everybody would have to live off of the land. Any family, tribe, country, etc. and its individual members can prosper or become debt ridden in accordance with their industrial behavior, government spending behavior, and/or other economic actions of the leaders of that family. Most of the jobs in the USA are created by coroporations and businesses. You could study and then work hard and then start your own corporation (or business) as I did in 1968.

If any family purchased imported things from outside of their family of less monetary value than the monetary (or otherwise useful value) of the items that they sold and exported to others outside of their family, then that family would have a net positive foreign trade balance. Only a net positive foreign trade balance would have increased the value of the real wealth privately owned assets of that family.

The USA government economic policies, environmental regulations, and other recent laws have caused our wealth generating factories to close, and then lay off the US workers for labor cost savings and also to escape the costs of existing and anticipated future environmental regulations.

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Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, September 25, 2009 at 12:11 pm Link to this comment

Those who use “merkin” are trying to show the general illiteracy in a bold and exaggerated way for American. Most don’t know that word so therefor are unfazed until someone tells them. Perhaps they will be less theatrical in their mis-presentations.

The next logical step for the pseudo-super-human corporation is nationhood. Imagine that, on their territory you are subject to their laws. Every location has the force of an embassy.  Every employee is protected by diplomatic immunity! How does that sound for a future? Not counting any thing else that could or are already happening. We may be seeing that soon in reality.

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, September 25, 2009 at 11:38 am Link to this comment

StuartH

Yes, the Supreme court’s decision may be a deciding factor on our nations future, though I do not believe things will be much more different than than what exists now. Maybe to degrees or percentage of influence, seems Corporations can have an increased and made eaiser influence if this passes,  so they can continue disregard the people. It may be safe to say there is much more going on behind the curtain than we know. 

It seems to me special interests have always had undue influence on government, now it may just become much easier for them.

Time has come to change the Mark Twain quote from “we have the best government money can buy”, to;  we may have to work on a new “quote?”

If we are lucky corporations will loose the same rights as people and what ever happened to controlling monopolies?

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By StuartH, September 25, 2009 at 10:43 am Link to this comment

Leefeller:

“It has been on ongoing battle to keep what was voted at the County level in
place under constant attack. Since individuals die, run out of money or become
tired of the fight (my case)  and corporations live for ever in their
relentlessness pursuits of money and power, it seems corporations considered
the same as people is most insane.  History seems to show us the patterns.”

I think there is a tendency to generalize from personal frustration to the
conclusion that everything is fucked.  From gleaning various clues about where
people are coming from, usually pretty well hidden, there are various localities
where various histories create different experiences to reach conclusions from.

Mendocino County, from my recollections of visiting there, is an area where there is an education level way above national norms and it seemed both well-to-do and urbane.  California has areas that are just not like the rest of the US. 

Some here obviously come from areas that are different. 

The intellectual technique of matching different experiences with analysis that ties together into a bigger picture seems to be largely unknown, and to the extent that is true, a common sense
of direction is not reachable.

The one thing looming overhead which should be of concern, is the outcome of
the Supreme Court case which might allow corporations to spend unlimited
amounts of money on political campaigning.

If people think they have undue influence now, wait until a few hundred
thousand or a million in contributions to US Senators like Max Baucus become billions and TV
advertising is about corporate views on issues 24/7 whether there is an
election or not.  The spectacular amount of money that the netroots raised last year may be a pittance compared to the flow of corporate money in future election cycles.

Hopefully the Supreme Court decision will not be so far reaching in impact and
Congress will be able to reign in the damage somewhat.  We shall see.

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By Shenonymous, September 24, 2009 at 9:40 pm Link to this comment

We humans rue a lot of things.  Life seemed simpler when I was a kid,
but upon real examination it was just as suckie as it is today.  Small
farming has become obsolete because there are too many mouths to
feed and we want everything for almost nothing…and corporations have
stepped in to provide the quantity while at the same time making their
board of directors wealthy as well as beyond wealthy CEOs because
they can.  Farming now by individuals is for their own use.  Small
farmers now are specialists, organic herbs, local market fresh and so
forth.  They cannot make much of a living and it is damn hard work. 
For every battle won like Leefeller’s group, there are two hundred who
lose.  Mass produce farming is what puts the Campbell’s soup on your
table. 

Size means everything these days as we become conditioned to have
whatever the middle class can afford, for instance our computers.  By
the way, do you know how many parts of your computer is made in
factory sweatshops?  We, at least us in TD, need to have our
computers.  Maybe more than any particular brand of toilet paper, and
for those of us who don’t have a bidet, we have to have both.

It was the size of MLKJr’s march that made the difference as he tried
for years to get the right attention.  Right meaning the attention of the
country, uh, the whites.  His message didn’t change over the years.  But
his march put his rights reform on the map.  DC was made helpless.

I don’t watch Michael Moore.  I have this feeling he is all about Michael
Moore as well.  For everyone to use bidets, millions of regular flush
toilets would have to be replaced.  Imagine the trash dumps with
mountains high of replaced toilets.  So toilet paper is here to stay
because the poor cannot afford bidets.  Besides in areas where water is
a premium it isn’t economical to use bidets.  And frankly I don’t want
anyone telling me what brand of toilet paper I have to use.  I do believe
in capitalism. I would bet you enjoy your freedoms as well, or you
would not have brought up the UN Universal Rights (which really is
called the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the UN adopted
it).  I keep a printed copy at my computer desk at all times.  And I do
believe that it is immoral for life and death issues to be at the mercy of
market forces.  There will never be another Constitutional Convention
in America and so there won’t be a redefining the right of Merkins for
any reason.  By the way, I remember NightGaunt telling you on some
other forum, KDelphi, what a Merkin is, a female pubic hairpiece and
for some odd reason you seem to desire to keep using the term that
means a pubic wig for women as a foil for some other odd reason
beknownst only to you.  Weird really as I never thought of merkins as
having any rights.  How would that work?  I thought everybody knew
what a merkin was.

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By Night-Gaunt, September 24, 2009 at 9:38 pm Link to this comment

You don’t fix bunco artists, you don’t fix ponzi schemes and rigged games. You end them. I think Capitalism can be rehabilitated but it must be under tight control so we can have the benefits of its creativity and minimize the threats of burning down the house. I also believe in a socialist cushion for us all so that if we are unemployed we will not go hungry or not have a place to live. Minimal for survival nothing else. A safety net for all.

I am also want full autonomy for individuals concerning their bodies and what they do with them. Total consent of the governed for ourselves.

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By KDelphi, September 24, 2009 at 8:01 pm Link to this comment

“The system may be rigged, but it seems to me a perpetual motion of constant hammering away. One can look back at the local level before the housing bust, seeing developers always grabbing prime farmland for construction, to be fought for a time and finally seems always the developers winning in the end, for money is what feeds that dog.”

Yes, now agri-busines feeds the dog—alot of corn!...many lost farmland because being a “farmer” has become almost obsolete. My father tried to hang onto acerage, by renting out room for horses, but, agri-business has taken over most rural areas, along with MALLS…the children of faarmers couldnt make a living farming, so they sold land, many under great pain (we did)—we just could not keep up the big old house, and we had no barn.
We sold it as one parcel, with a promise not to develop it, but they could break the contract. My family had to pay for two cancers and a motorcycle accident. its gone. Plus, it is impossible to find much work in Ohio.

She, I understand your points about Af Ams. I wished very badly that he would live up to the expectations many had (have ) for him. YOu know that I didnt support him, but, so many did, I hoped that perhaps they were right

The problem with everyone feeling that it is not effective unless it is the size of MLKJr’s marches, is that, if most people thought that about MLKJr’s marches not as many people wouldve shown up, and the civil rights movement might never have happened!This can become a self-perpetuating cycle of ‘nothing works”. I am not sure I know the answers, but, I know that the status quo is killing alot of people.

No middle class, no democracy.

I dont know if you saw Michael MOore on Larry King live or Democracy Now! but, i saw both and it was a “whole different Michael”, on each, it seemed to me. Michael Moore talks the talk, but, despite his seeming “routing for the little guy”, when the chips are down, he chooses Michael Moore above all else. He is entertaining and makes good points, but, when it comes to backing politics, he usually comes up with awn excuse to back someone who goes totally against the “moral arguments” he espouses in his movies.

BTW—I do not care at all if there is only one brand of toilet paper (or, if we would just use bidets—I do),(lol) but I know that that is not what you meant. I dont believe in Capitalism, but, “choice” of brands of shoes is one thing while a “choice” of food, clothing, shelter and medical care seems to me to be wholly different, and to place life or death issues under market forces seems completely void of morality.

I have heard some Dems complain about Obama—mostly “progerssives”—but, I dont think that they really hesitate because of his race, either,considering the Congressional Black Caucus, Black Agenda Report, etc. I think that they hesitate to criticize any Democrat. GOP does the same.
In the end, Democrats are Democrats, even with Progressive Caucus and one Democratic Socialist (got it right this time, she!! lol!)

People need an opposition party to the powers that be , that have become almost entirely representative of corporations…we need campaign finance reform, proportional representation ( I think)and a Constituional Convention, redefining the right of Merkins to be more in line with what most civilized couintries think of as the Rights of Man (or women)

We could start with the UN Universal Rights, which should be well within the reach of the “richest country on earth”.

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By Shenonymous, September 24, 2009 at 2:33 pm Link to this comment

KDelphi, I do not disagree with you. You make an excellent point. I too do not think
anyone ought to be afraid to make criticisms of him and the fact is many are not
afraid, f’ the countercriticism, and they do.  This is coming from within the
Democratic ranks.  Try D-ND Sen. Kent Conrad, D-Mass Sen. John Kerry both
speaking about the stimulus plan.  Try the Pro-Life DFLA Democrats on his stem-cell
policy, Governor of Tennessee Democrat Phil Bredesen criticizes Obama’s health care
plan.  So there are brave critics among Democrats.

While race ought not to be involved, it is and Obama represents the first African
American to have the presidency.  If he doesn’t do well, and I think I said that I am
hoping he does, it will stain the African American effort to hold that office in the
future.  Obama is an unusually intelligent, educated, and articulate man, that has
nothing to do with his race, which is evident in his ability to command attention at
the UN and at the G20 meetings.  He has made his race an issue at various times
and has not ever denied being of the African American community.  They will reap
the benefits of his success or any detriment from his failure.

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By Shenonymous, September 24, 2009 at 2:17 pm Link to this comment

I am afraid you are most perceptive, plainsman.  Woe is us.  Too bad
we have to rely on word of mouth.  I am not an anarchist, far from it,
so I wouldn’t be demonstrating in the street.  I don’t believe those kind
of protests are effective unless of the magnitude of a Martin Luther
King, Jr. peace march.  The anarchists are really individuals within the
general population who after grumbling for a while, spending some
time in jail, and will go back to their humdrum lives.  I don’t see any
communities full of them anywhere.

I just heard that Michael Moore is in the CNN Situation Room claiming
that capitalism is nothing but a ponzi scheme.  Well I hope Shaman
MIke tells us how to repair it.  For to capitulate capitalism in favor of
socialism would be disastrous to individual achievement.  Get ready to
give up your home, any other property you own, and being an
independent thinker.  If you think Walmart is bland with their few
products that they are promoting, it will be 10,000 times worse when
the socialist government dictates what brand of toilet paper you must
use.  I am not saying there is not some virtue in socialistic programs.  I
fully support such things as Medicare and Social Security.  I know too
many seniors who would be devastated and would have died without
both of those.  There is good reason for such a large country as the US
to have conformational education as well and the financial world
regulated.  The polemic back and forth between the relative views will
eventually tamp down into what will best work.  Irritation until that
happens is what will propel it for like water it will seek its own level.

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By Leefeller, September 24, 2009 at 2:16 pm Link to this comment

Kdelphi,

The system may be rigged, but it seems to me a perpetual motion of constant hammering away. One can look back at the local level before the housing bust, seeing developers always grabbing prime farmland for construction, to be fought for a time and finally seems always the developers winning in the end, for money is what feeds that dog.

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By KDelphi, September 24, 2009 at 2:13 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous—If you dont mind my saying so, while I see your point about Obama possibly screwing the pooch for other black politicians, the point must also be made, that, many liberals are terrified of criticizing almost anything Obama dos, for fear of being seen as not “supporting black leadership”.

Even Code Pink is constantly sending “Obama please” letters and refusing to protest. I believe that this is a mistake. It is certainly not ‘holding his feet to the fire”.

If our country were not is such dire straits, perhaps…But we have to make some fundamental decisions as a country, i believe, and they have to be made very soon.

As important as the issue of race is in the uS, we must not allow it to overshadow the fact that we are currently riding on a broken train with no brakes and the engineer seems only concerned with the status quo.

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By Shenonymous, September 24, 2009 at 2:03 pm Link to this comment

truedigger3 you ask me to stand up for my statements.  Good for you,
but I assure you I neither fantasize nor dream .  Wishful thinking, yeah,
I would give you that but it is not ruining my life, is the reality ruining
yours?  I will not be offing myself over it either, even if it would help
out shemp333.  I have already stated several times before, on other
forums, I really have no faith in any politician even though I am hoping
Obama changes that cynicism.  He sure does look at times like no
change from Bush and company is the reality.  I still think it is
premature to see what the outcomes will be of his policies.  His critics
want to expect a catastrophe, knowing all the while that the job is the
worst any president has ever inherited with calamity descriptive of
every sector of government that includes the Middle Eastern wars, the
nuclear threats, terrorism, financial and mortgage world, education,
healthcare, the environment, the economy, unemployment which each
of the spokespersons of each of those screaming for resolution.  I can’t
think of anything else but each of those are complex and each
represents a nightmare.  I cannot be so callous to expect a man who
has been in office for 9 months to have fixed all of those yet everyone
wants his feet to burn.  While I think we must be relentless to hold him
to his promises.  He is touching on all of them and has some programs
working.  I don’t know if the recession is over, but that is what all the
financial wizards are saying.  Well all the ones I’ve heard anyway. 

If Obama is a bullshit artist, and no doubt he is, he is a politician and it
comes with the territory, he won’t get my vote when he runs again. 
And he knows his head is on the guillotine of politics so he had better
deliver.  Ig he doesn’t he will have ruined his historic presidency of
being the first black man, and will ruin the future of any other black
candidate for it will give substance to his critics that Black Americans
do not have the competence and tenacity to be president.  That is what
it means in this case to heat up his heels.  But you really knew that.  It
was just your way of being smart mouth.  Okay, it’s okay.  It’s a guy
thing.

I think I was clear when I said the ones “attending” the G20.  That
would not have included the US moneyed class.  There are both
government officials and corproate leaders and from the several big
moneyed countries of the world.

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By KDelphi, September 24, 2009 at 2:02 pm Link to this comment

Leefeller—its true. I have probably not worked at the level or intensity that you have, but, some of the (mostly local)issues i worked hardest on, won amendments, lawsuits, etc. and then, a few years later, I would hear of it happening again! I would find out it had been overturned by some partisan crap at the county of state level.

It led me to the conclusion that the system is rigged and, that,
“fixing it from within” was just not possible.

I went into, bacially, community health because I was going to “work to change the system from within”—and, as anyone can see, it didnt happen. Not under total control by either party. It is the same way at the federal level.

The way some see it (Ive heard them say, no, I have no links)the Constitution and Bill of Rights are intentionally at odds with one another and, therefore, nothing ever changes. hence, US primitivism.

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By plainsman, September 24, 2009 at 2:00 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous, it seems you are already informed about agrochemcorps, et cetera, and have read / watched much of the same material as me. Word of mouth is all that is left to those of us who cannot mount media / legal campaigns. If you want more information go to:

http://www.etcgroup.org/en/
http://www.agbioforum.org/index.htm
http://www.corpwatch.org/index.php
http://www.politicalfriendster.com/search.php

The vast majority of people are happily going along with the status quo, quite oblivious to how their lives are inexorably being controlled by corporations. Often times they don’t want to know. This, in spite of Chris Hedges pointing to growing dissent. And, unfortunately, most who hear about large protests—like the one coming up—buy into the mainstream media view that the protesters are somehow deranged or bored, certainly misinformed.

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By Leefeller, September 24, 2009 at 1:34 pm Link to this comment

After spending much time reading most of the posts, I must have gleaned something new? Obama sucks, no he does not, we need to become violent, no we don’t. Is this the thread where some time was spent on hidden detention centers and of course 911?  Some believe grass root movements are the way to go, I can only tell you my experience a quick comment. 

Grass roots activism may seem fruitful. Ours was attempted against Monsanto so we voted and passed a country ordinance in Mendocino County, Measure H.  As handicaps go, so it seems logical to attempt local organizations, basically we caught Monsanto with their pants down and won, even though in our small county they shoveled one million dollars against Measure H. So we won.

It should be noted the corporations first the locals then on the state, which is were they are now. It must be reasoned they are working on the feds at the same time.  Constant lobbing at State level.  Which in reference to She’s post is what has been ongoing and happening now The fight has been constant and relentless, seems money as usual trumps all.

It has been on ongoing battle to keep what was voted at the County level in place under constant attack. Since individuals die, run out of money or become tired of the fight (my case)  and corporations live for ever in their relentlessness pursuits of money and power, it seems corporations considered the same as people is most insane.  History seems to show us the patterns.

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By plainsman, September 24, 2009 at 12:04 pm Link to this comment

ardee, it’s surprising that someone who writes so well apparently cannot read. Thanks for the comic relief.

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By bogi666, September 24, 2009 at 11:38 am Link to this comment

C. Curtis Dillon, you’re right about public protests being the most effective way to demonstrate against government. It’s curious that weapons can be openly displayed at public forums without hindrance and is constitutionally protected. However, the prohibition, persecution and prosecution of what signs or tee shirts say along with the right of free assembly, both constitutional right, are disallowed. Logically, disarming someone could be a deterrent from doing so. The bravest demonstrators have been from Code Pink and have been women, unarmed. They are routinely manhandled and arrested, perhaps they should carry weapons and no one would bother them.

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By bogi666, September 24, 2009 at 11:26 am Link to this comment

outraged, compared to the grades i got in english what you write is a compliment, thanks. all you do is attack various messengers which indicates your shallowness and intellectual ability, or you’re just a neocon. in any event whatever you could say or imagine about me would pale in comparison to what has already been said. just how many different names do you use?

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By Shenonymous, September 24, 2009 at 5:03 am Link to this comment

In essence, plainsman you give good advice, but a revelation of sources
would be most appreciated.  The only real power the common people
have is with their little dollars.  But not enough is made public about
who those are who participate in the making and how those selling
those products dupe that the teenie tiny but billions of dollars that the
ordinary public spend are swindled into getting their piece of
Constitutional happiness.  Part of the problem is, I wonder that if the
public was informed, would enough of them care to make a difference. 
Course we will never know unless the effort is made to educate them. 

There are enough critics with enough money to teach the public, at
least over their iPods and Blackberries, since I’ve noticed even the most
poor have their electronic umbilical cord with the world.  What I wonder
is if they are so poor how can they afford the phone bill? 

I recall the organized protest against Monsanto over there in Northern
California regarding the use of pesticides, a small vignette of what
happened there: From a film, Food, Inc., for a tv documentary
series, one sees how Monsanto goes after an elderly man whose life
has been devoted to the practice of cleaning seeds so farmers can
replant crops. The chemical company, which has patented herbicide-
resistant soybeans and corn, says he is helping farmers plant Monsanto
seeds illegally. The man is forced in a deposition to expose longtime
friends and clients who are suspected of using the seeds illegally. He
eventually gives up the legal fight when he runs out of money.
Monsanto recently posted a Web page (monsanto.com/foodinc) devoted
to countering the film’s version of events.  See this website for a scant
more information:
http://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_18210.cfm
I think I recall, a year or so ago, someone on these forums saying he is
an organic farmer and could tell the particulars.  I don’t recall exactly
who that commenter was.  Fact is that corporations have money to
burn, common folks burn their money pissing in the wind against the
corporations.  Judges sympathetic with Monsanto issues injunctions:
http://www.icmrindia.org/casestudies/catalogue/Business Ethics/BE
CG078.htm
Also:
http://www.familyfarmdefenders.org/pmwiki.php/GeneticEngineering/M
onsanto-HowNowBrownCow

These local resistance groups really go nowhere regardless of how
organized they are. 

Guess it might be by word of mouth that any real protest can take
effect.  Supposedly there is a six degree of separation of one person
being in touch of every person in the world!  So just telling the truth
about corporate power and their products and asking your closest
friends and relatives to pass on the information telling them to tell
those to pass it on might be effective.  The theory has to be tested
though. As it is, it is simply a hypothetical.

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By truedigger3, September 24, 2009 at 4:17 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous wrote:
“The ones who have the money and power are the ones attending G20 and we will see what they do.”
____________________________________________________

When you said “The ones who have money”, I got the impression that you are talking about the US moneyed class, and that class doesn’t want any regulations or any changes to the financial system.
However, even the ones attending G20 will do nothing or will come up with very weak watered down regulations that don’t make any difference because the US “the 800 pounds guerrila among chemps” wants to do nothing.


Shenonymous also wrote:
“While I am an Obama supporter, I am a citizen of this American society first and his feet need to be held to the fire for all the promises made and for which he won the election.”
____________________________________________________

Can you explain and show us please how you will “hold his feet to the fire”. I heard that trite phrase many times during the election campaign when countless people warned that Obama is nothing but a bullshit artist and that he is a man of the status quo.


Shenonymous then wrote about Obama:
“As a voter, I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.”
____________________________________________________

Keep dreaming and fantasizing. Wishful thinking is a very good drug.

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By ardee, September 24, 2009 at 2:16 am Link to this comment

By plainsman, September 23 at 9:49 pm #

ardee perhaps you should spend more time researching and less time blathering.

Perhaps, after you are finished committing an anatomically impossible task upon yourself, you might elucidate.

One “blathers” as best as one can. You, for example, post the same old tired neocon rants.

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By KDelphi, September 23, 2009 at 9:00 pm Link to this comment

Neolibcons should listen to truedigger3 (or repeat 1994) I got a hunch which one you will do…lol
Then you will have a much better excuse to do nothing! Is that the “plan”? (“Oh, those dumbass poor people voted out their true friends , the Democratic party again!! They are so dumb about their own interests Its sad really!”)

Then you can have fun intellectualizing about how poor are poor because they really are stupid….you tried to do what wqas best for them, but they just couldnt compete!.....because you are really pretty comfortable now, arent you? Why ‘change”?

“People like you are causing the common folks to hate progressives for their so called lofty cultural elitism that is divorced from the realities of life of the common people and their problems.
Also, may I remind you that the corporate/moneyed classes support illegal immigration and want the boder to be porous becaus that is a good source of an endless supply of cheap and intimidated labor and what is ironic they blames the so called progressives for blocking any real solution to the problem.! Funny Ha. “

Is there still someone that thinks that importing another slave class from Mexico and South America is good for anyone but the corporate elite? I mean, they all are “living the Merkin dream”, right? What a nightmare.

Pick your own f*cking fruit.

The South needs to learn how to “work” instead of casino gambling. Thewy need to “make” something or “perform a service”...anyone remember that kindve stuff?? We did used to do that, I think.

How about an intl minimum wqage, and international standard of living, an intl union? Everyone that pretends to be “for the rights of immigrants” doesnt seem to give a damn how they live when they get here.

IF CORPORATIONS HAD TO TREAT ALL WORKERS THE SAME THE PROBLEM WOULD BE SOLVED.

But you’ll have to do better than the UAW. US Unins are the laughing stalk of the world.

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By plainsman, September 23, 2009 at 6:49 pm Link to this comment

ardee perhaps you should spend more time researching and less time blathering.

Outraged, there are countless examples of how corporations dictate to governments. Research “substantial equivalence” for starters. The term came into being under the Clinton administration.

As a result of the revolving doors between government bureaucracy and corporate administration the same people swing back and forth between government and big business, to the extent that it is difficult to tell who is making the decisions but obvious to see who benefits. If you want a glaring example of this just look at Dick Cheney’s resume. Or Clarence Thomas; or Raum Emmanuel ...

By way of a small but specific example: Farmers in Montana managed to get a bill before the State legislature. However, just before it was to go to committee, the agrochemcorps arranged a little outing for the politicians. The bill, which previously had a lot of support, was then killed in committee. What was the bill? It would have allowed farmers to sue the agrochemcorps for contaminating their non GE crops with pollen drift from the genetically engineered crops being pushed by the agrochemcoprs.

Repeatedly multinational corporations get their wishes, their agendas, pushed through government while the “people” are not heard. The current health care pseudo debate is yet another example of this.

Regarding people getting involved: Years ago I knew a woman with a ten year old son. (I was rooming with her temporarily.) Every night she would yell at her son that if he didn’t get ready for bed he wouldn’t get his snack. He ignored her. She yelled more, the threat seemed more and more credible. Finally when her son showed up in his pajamas he would invariably get his snack. Sometimes she would take it upstairs to him. The point here is that all the protesting (and yelling) is wasted energy so long as people continue to support the “system”.

If you want things to change then it is necessary to not participate. For example, every time you spend money in a box store you are supporting a large corporation. Every time you buy regular food you are supporting chemical driven industrial agriculture. I am not suggesting that people drop out. What I am saying is that citizens of the world have to start voting with their dollars. The ring of the cash register is the only thing that corporate leaders hear.

BTW, I am not on a “team”.

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By Shenonymous, September 23, 2009 at 5:45 pm Link to this comment

Your simile about Hedges standing me up for a prom is a de facto name calling
with the implication that I criticize him because of some lame indiscretion he
committed against me!  Unfortunately, you made a slur against Hedges’s basic
ethics suggesting he would make a date, it doesn’t matter with whom, and not
show up.  I can definitely laugh about it.  I actually did and I ROTFALMAO as the
idea was hilarious.  Are you funnier than your hero? 

The comment about him having two left feet wasn’t really alluding to his inability
to dance, though I hadn’t thought about it, but now that you brought it to my
attention, he probably can’t (though I could boogie down ‘round both he and you). 
It was a pun since Hedges is Leftist, a double dose of left footism means he is a
double-dose Leftist.  But you didn’t get my joke.  Sorry it was probably too arcane
for you.  And you are right, enough said betwixt us.  You may make the final
comment if you wish.  I disengage with the period at the end of this sentence.

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By ardee, September 23, 2009 at 3:49 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous, September 23 at 8:26 am #

No, ardee, I don’t dance, at least with those with two left feet like
Hedges.  And I don’t sing his praises, but you certainly sing in a soprano
voice.  A bit shrill.  I don’t call you names, so please don’t start calling me
names.

Please point out where I called you a name?

How , I wonder, do you deduce that Hedges has two left feet unless you have seen him dance I wonder? I was trying for funny, but you are entirely too over the top to laugh I guess…

I still like the work of Chris Hedges, you do not, ‘nuff said. More than enough in fact, way, way more….

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By Shenonymous, September 23, 2009 at 3:03 pm Link to this comment

The ones who have the money and power are the ones attending G20
and we will see what they do.  Speculation about those who have the
money who will not do anything until there is nothing left to steal or
tax from the common folks is a generalized overinflated accusation and
does nothing to allow those who want to “do” something to have
anything (a corporation, a wealthy person, et al) to take action against. 
As long as nebulousness or imprecision rules, comments are superficial
and worthless.  Action is taking action against an existent thing, not an
abstraction. 

It is obvious that unemployed people world-wide is the worst problem
facing the world of real human economics and people’s lives.  Bank
reform and exit strategies from the bail outs that has almost depleted
the funding for anti-global warming actions are the problems to be
solved that is being demanded by Europe.  Global warming fear is the
next big issue that has to be reconciled. 

To what end would it serve to block any movement of the “dignitaries”
from the city of Pittsburgh?

If Obama does not “take on Wall Street” at the G20 meeting tomorrow,
which is where it would get the most public media traction, then he
contradicts himself in several public statements such as Sept. 14
(Reuters) when he told financial firms to take a lesson from the Lehman
Brothers’ collapse. 

While I am an Obama supporter, I am a citizen of this American society
first and his feet need to be held to the fire for all the promises he
made and for which he won the election.  As a voter, I am willing to
give him the benefit of the doubt.  If he doesn’t deliver by the end of
his presidency, then it will be time for me to find another political
deity.  In the meantime I don’t let the screeching hystericals and their
hysterics make much of a dent in my emotions.  Do you?

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By berniem, September 23, 2009 at 2:07 pm Link to this comment

As a lifelong resident of the Pgh. area, effecting a noteworthy protest may be better accomplished by not trying to get into the city center for direct confrontation with the deployed mercenaries. The topography of the place is somewhat akin to Dien Bien Phu and it may be interesting to see the reaction of the dignitaries to their inability to leave Pgh once safely ensconced within. Just a thought.

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By truedigger3, September 23, 2009 at 1:19 pm Link to this comment

Re: By StuartH, September 23 at 12:26 pm #,

StuartH,

If you have read my post carefully, you would have read that I pointed to the fact that NAFTA and the US industrial Agribusiness is a big factor in illegal immigration and NAFTA has to be cancelled.
Most of the illegal immigrants don’t stay in the South West but fan out everywhere where they compete with US working folks and make their life more harder than it is already hard enough.
As I said, the common folks in the US are being penalised twice: NAFTA exported their jobs and illegal immigration is taking many of the small number of jobs left behind. It is that clear and simple.
We are talking about illegal immigration and not about Indians in reservations. I am not sure why you mix ths subjects. Do you mean all the illegal immigrants are Indians? That is definitely not true.
Although I consider myself one of the so called progressives and I am left of center.
People like you are causing the common folks to hate progressives for their so called lofty cultural elitism that is divorced from the realities of life of the common people and their problems.
Also, may I remind you that the corporate/moneyed classes support illegal immigration and want the boder to be porous becaus that is a good source of an endless supply of cheap and intimidated labor and what is ironic they blames the so called progressives for blocking any real solution to the problem.! Funny Ha.

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By Folktruther, September 23, 2009 at 12:07 pm Link to this comment

Not a police state, politiky, a police earth. A world ruling class is emerging to rule the world in their own interests.  The people of the earth must untie as well to counter them.  The demo at Pittsburgh apparently includes people from other countries as well, acting in concert against the world powers.  A transnational earth coalition is in its beginning stages to oppose the globalization of the New World Order.

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By politicky, September 23, 2009 at 11:06 am Link to this comment

Proof that globalization is only possible in a police state:
Federal Judge Dismisses Police Harassment Claims by Activist Groups at Pittsburgh’s G-20
http://www.democracynow.org/email/story/10447

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By dgswilson, September 23, 2009 at 10:32 am Link to this comment

In response to what can we do. First I’d watch this movie IRS: Some facts (third down on list).

Next - I’ve come to the conclusion that the only way to stop the beasts in their tracks is to stop cooperating with them. Public cooperation is: we give them money, they use it to meet their goals. So the only solution is - stop giving them money.

The only way for this to work would be for enough people to agree to stop cooperating. A rough plan for that is might be (1) start a petition on as many websites as possible that would direct everyone to a central location (2) central location has petition where signers agree that when a certain amount of signatures is reached the signers will not give over any money. (3) amount reached (4) Stop payments.

That’s the only way I can come up with. If we were able to do that - the transfer of power would be instantaneous. There is no telling what would happen afterward. We do have the same opportunities that were available to those of our newly formed Republic. We could learn from the past or do the same thing again.

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By Folktruther, September 23, 2009 at 9:57 am Link to this comment

Way to go, Stuart!  Your comment on liberal racism justifies my faith that even Dems can say something true and useuful.

Svana, thank you very much for your comment. As a Pittsburgh resident you can give us info that is repressed by the mainstream media. 

It is increasingly apparent that the police state initiated by the 9/11-antrax public relations homicide is being continued by Obama.  He is a bookend to Bush, leading the Dems to support Bushite policies.  The brutality and harassment of the police in Pittsburgh is complemented by Obama’s support of continuing the Patriot Act, and spying on the American people.

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By ma77hew77, September 23, 2009 at 9:40 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Chris does it again. Thank you Chris! Your sense of the turbulent under current rising to the top is accurate. Your frustration is shared and your vision of what look to be in store follows paths of history. No one wants to hear or think about the truths that you are aligning. The threat your observations represent to someones future ambitions of just ignoring the burning elephant in this nations room and continue life as if “everything is fine” for some is overwhelming. This is why (as you know) some here are striking out at you others and generally being irrational.

We need to hear your observations. We need to be shown the mirror. No matter how disfigured and grotesque we have become or are becoming.

We all need to study the past and understand the parallels that guide us in our present and lead us into the future.

Get out your check list and start ticking of boxes.


  1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy.
  2. Create secret prisons where torture takes place.
  3. Develop a thug caste or paramilitary force not answerable to citizens.
  4. Set up an internal surveillance system.
  5. Harass citizens’ groups.
  6. Engage in arbitrary detention and release.
  7. Target key individuals.
  8. Control the press.
  9. Treat all political dissidents as traitors.
  10. Suspend the rule of law.


http://www.amazon.com/End-America-Letter-Warning-Patriot/dp/1933392797

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By StuartH, September 23, 2009 at 9:26 am Link to this comment

truedigger3:


“Do you want the so called progressives to help illegal immigrants to steal more of the dwendling jobs left in this country in the middle of a severe recession.”

Having lived in a Southwestern Indian reservation, I have been saddened to discover there is indeed such a thing as liberal racism, where Indian people are concerned.  This is one of the main impediments to a more intelligent discussion about immigration reform.  Racists on the right create reactions on the left and the serious problems at the heart of all this are ignored.

The point of saying that most people ignore the reason that there is an exodus (which by the way has slowed somewhat because of the recession) is to point out the need to address the larger factor causing it, to focus on the bigger picture.

Blaming the individuals who risk their lives and who leave traditional communities they would rather have stayed in is shortsighted.  Republicans frame the issue this way because racism is an easy way to rouse people in a way that distracts from their own culpability.  This is a “pay no attention to the little man behind the curtain” manuever and it is amazingly successful.  Again, because of the vulnerability everyone has to unexamined racist attitudes, fog obscures clear vision.

When US banks and large businesses force local people off their land so it can be put to “higher and better use” for cattle for Burger King or for cheap bananas, when the School of the Americas trains police and paramilitary to put down the protests of those whose lands were stolen, when US consumers turn
a blind eye to this in order to benefit from cheap products, we have a big picture that most people ignore.  Continuing to ignore this won’t produce any intelligent solutions. 

This includes NAFTA insofar as it enables these conditions, but it goes way beyond NAFTA. 

Serious comprehensive immigration reform should include the ways that the US pushes people out of their home communities and fundamental mechanisms that could promote economic development and social justice in communities in Latin and South America and Mexico.

To look at this only in terms of punishing brown people, is racist.  It adds to the cruelty of the treatment these people are receiving at the hands of the multinational banks and corporations, backed by the US government. 

This border region containing the deserts of the Southwest and Mexico, has been ignored and neglected by the rest of America and would continue to be out of sight and out of mind without the issue of tens of thousands of border crossers arousing the more xenophobic and racist reactions against brown people, especially those with Indian blood. 

In this region, people are interrelated and have lived on either side of the border going back into the mists of time.  The immigration problem, from some perspectives, began in 1492.

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By wageslave, September 23, 2009 at 7:36 am Link to this comment

Too many of us are letting our egos degenerate this very important topic into infantile bogger flicking.  Focus.  There’s too many intellegent individuals here to not want to at least try to answer the question: What do we as individuals do next?  As far as trusting those with the money and power to fix the problem they created in the first place: It’s not in their intrest and the only problem they see is how to continue getting away with doing the same thing wrong again and again; which is all they’ve ever done. 
So what do we do as individuals; since there is no organized Left and it’s probably too late to start one that wouldn’t be ‘compermised’ within a few months anyway? 
Again: Too much intellegence here wasted on throwing spit balls.  We’re better than that and this is too important.  This very well could be the end of the god damn world as we’ve known it.  It’s happened in history before.

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By truedigger3, September 23, 2009 at 6:28 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous wrote:
“those who have the money are the only ones who can create financial regulation and introduce sanctions against secretive tax sanctuaries.”
_____________________________________________________

Shenonymous,

I doubt that “those who have money” will do that until there nothing left to steal or tax from the common folks and “those who have money” start stealing from each other.

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By Shenonymous, September 23, 2009 at 5:26 am Link to this comment

No, ardee, I don’t dance, at least with those with two left feet like
Hedges.  And I don’t sing his praises, but you certainly sing in a soprano
voice.  A bit shrill.  I don’t call you names, so please don’t start calling me
names. It is a sign of weakness of mind.

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By svana1, September 23, 2009 at 5:22 am Link to this comment

As a Pittsburgh resident, I admit that it’s a bit scary to see the long lines of motorcycle police in black uniforms cruising in formation down the main streets. Even in Washington, D.C. after 9/11, when uniformed military police were directing traffic, when snipers walked the perimeter of the Justice Building roof, when jersey barriers went up around the building I worked in, and when bag checks were instituted at every entrance, the police then didn’t look half as fearsome as they do in Pittsburgh now. It’s clear that the city does not belong to the people. Its taxpayers and local businesses (which drive the local economy) are inconveniced, wide swaths of the city shut down, and its residents made fearful and impotent (UPMC’s boarded up each building’s windows)—all because the city and the geographical areas surrounding it are the temporary conference space and playground of the powerful. I’m somehow reminded of Orwell’s Animal Farm…

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By dgswilson, September 23, 2009 at 5:02 am Link to this comment

Wooo-eee (did I pen that right?) It’s party time in the states. (did I pun that right?) Easy red squad I’m not talking about that “right”. (I’m not sure about the team colors, it’s like the super bowl, I watch, but if you asked me who won last year I wouldn’t be able to tell you).

Meet the new boss (does Daltry say “teenage” wasteland)
Administrating Neo-Liberalism

Visit me at the lonely forum

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By ardee, September 23, 2009 at 5:02 am Link to this comment

I have a theory….

In the face of the seemingly endless diatribe of Shenonymous, September 23 at 7:30 am , at all things Chris Hedges, one that encompasses all the posters who agree with anything Hedges says as well, I have come to a conclusion.

They must have gone to High School together and Hedges stood her up at the Prom…..time to let it go, She, long past time in fact. Why not simply post specific objections to specific opinions by this author and stop waging war?

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By Shenonymous, September 23, 2009 at 4:30 am Link to this comment

En Passant:  Chris Hedges goes over the edge once again and his parrot
chorus sings his tunes once again.  The cacophony exceeds the bounds
of sanity.  It is quite hysterical. ROTFLMAO!  truedigger3 is truly a
truthteller, WriterOnTheStorm gives amazingly refreshingly rational
observations, plainsman, and Ricardo make browsing the forum
worthwhile.  Ouroborus is for total anarchy, yeah, let’s just resort to
complete savagery!  shemp333 thinks there are too many people on
earth, so why doesn’t he off himself and be sure to get rid of at least
one?  That was a “just kidding” comment.  It is unbelievable that there
are so many people able to parade as thinking animals.  Must be a
matter of mass hypnosis.  Then there is the call for violence rather
than peaceful demonstration.  Oh yeah.  Those of you who are calling
for violence…please donate your daughters and sons to do the
violence.  The financial disaster in the world needs to be addressed,
those who have the money are the only ones who can create financial
regulation and introduce sanctions against secretive tax sanctuaries. 
Any other discussion is gaseous ventilation.

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By ardee, September 23, 2009 at 3:17 am Link to this comment

plainsman, September 22 at 10:52 pm #

I watched as long as I could, a few minutes in fact…I wish I knew what you were trying to say with this silly piece…..

You were correct though, in the snippet I managed to get through, that it seems to give the left much assurance.

I do appreciate the attempt to reach out though, but hope you will try harder in future.

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By C.Curtis.Dillon, September 23, 2009 at 2:03 am Link to this comment

I just love how OUTRAGED sets himself up as the only authority on everything.  He doesn’t have any credentials for this but that doesn’t stop him from declaring that only he know the answers.  We should all stop posting here and let him have center stage where he can pontificate all day long.  But, oddly, this is an open comment stream meaning people of different persuasions and ideas can come together and add their 2 cents about what is happening.

So, you are an expert on disease, climate change and all things scientific?  Unlike you, I am.  Mankind will continue to pollute and destroy the environment until something (or more than one thing) finally is unleashed.  It could be a new virus (health officials are worried about H1N1 because it has the potential to mutate and become extremely dangerous) or a crop disease that destroys one of the strategic mono-cultured staples that the world depends upon (rice or wheat would be ideal for this).  If we continue acting like jerks, eventually something will happen to correct the imbalance.  Count on it!

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By Outraged, September 23, 2009 at 12:29 am Link to this comment

Re: G.Andersen

Your comment:  “suck your thumbs Americano’s and pop another SSRI, stick a joint in your mouth, watch the Wheel of Fortune and wonder how come your country got this way….”

Can you explain “americano’s”.... what does that mean?

Re: bogus666, oh… sorry, bogi555, oh…sorry, I mean of course bogi666.

Your comment: “Violence is necessary.This is the only they will understand,”

Sorry…. but, ah… well… “this is the only they will understand” is not only grammatically incorrect, but specious.  Experience tells me that only VIOLENT people (ruthless, corrupt and ideological) are the types which ENDOSE this type of mantra.  Not to be outright blunt, but realistically….. in TODAY’S America, this very clearly interprets as an against “The People” type MANTRA.

I have not heard this from any of The People, although I find it common in corporatist propaganda.

Yep.

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By KDelphi, September 23, 2009 at 12:04 am Link to this comment

Candace—I suppose I’m being nit-picky, but Chris wrote “The rage of the disposed is fracturing the country, dividing it into camps that are unmoored from the political mainstream. ” “Disposed” doesn’t make sense to me.  Did he mean “dispossessed”?

You’ll know it when you feel it! Makes perfect sense to me.

By Fat Freddy, September 21 at 4:26 pm #


FatFreddy—
So, you have no faith in the “individual” ( that is not the question—you do not individually choose what a stock will do, what your 401k goes in to, etc. Even if you chose wisely, it will still eventually crash—but keep investing! We’ll bail you out!! We just love stock mkt guys!)and all choices should be made by the government? (not THIS govt!) Where did I say that?? I think that I have a stake in who invests in the “stock mkt” now that the lower classes have BOUGHT it!

“What do you think got us in this mess? Do you think the big, bad corporations did it all on their own? “(almost exclusively)Tell me, what happened to the airline worker’s pensions?(Wall sat dummy!) Why are they only getting about 40 cents on the dollar? What happened to the NJ State worker’s pension when some idiot in the state government invested 80% of it in Enron? (you are answerin g your own question—-Enron is not at fault? They are a CORPORATION)But “people” can’t be trusted to save and invest for their own retirement, right? (apparently not)People should just be good little lambs and follow the leader to the slaughter, right? (you did—actually I think people should slaughter stock brokers and banksters)) It was government that put a $106,000 wage cap on SS taxes. It was government that didn’t put any restrictions on collecting SS, as long as you paid in, it doesn’t matter if you get a $28 million/year pension. And it was the government that decided $1,000/month or so is plenty for a poor retiree to live off of.

So you are against govt programs because you dont like the rules, or on principle?? You dont make any sense. Why bother with social security at all, if"investing in Wall St is so easy”?? Make your fortune in stocks and place your money in Bermuda—never pay a tax on it. I’m sure that youre saavy enough to do that.

Many have alot less than $1000 a month now, because they invested in Wall St. But dont worry, we’ll bail you out—but only if you dont need the money…

“Yes, Middle Class and Working Class should be invested in the stock market. That’s how you take money away from the rich and powerful. (the rich and powerful love people like you—-they OWN Wall St! Here, throw Fat Freddy a bone!! He loves them!)

“The fact is, that there are many businesses and corporations that do have a sense of civic responsibility..” (then they are deceiving their shareholders who are supposed to be their first responsibility) But people need to be aware of the facts, and do a little research. (how can you do “research” on what your boss is investing in? thats what 401ks and IRAs are! To get the middle class to give more money to finanacial mgrs, silly) 

But dont worry, either party of the duopoly will bail you out with poor peoples money

If your “community” fights WM, etc, what the hell does that have to do with “corporation”? You are very confusing. A COMMUNITY is what I am caoling for, nothing to do with Wall St. I dunno, maybe you live in a communioty where no one needs a Wal Mart job? Look, I HATE Wal Mart and never shop there, no matter how poor i get. But your “cokmmunity” is not going to stop the global rape of working class USA. You sound like a Wall St stooge.

One thing: If you are doing well on Wall St, dont get too comfy yet, ok?

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By Outraged, September 22, 2009 at 11:37 pm Link to this comment

Re: Folktruther and Shemp

Regarding your comment (Shemp) responded to by “Folktruther”...

“By Folktruther, September 22 at 5:26 am #

Shemp, your fear that your life is being wasted posting useless comments on the internet is quite justified.”

Talk about “loaded dice”... is someone holding a gun to the both of YOUR HEADS….?  Look, if you don’t want to post here (or anywhere for that matter) CEASE AND DESIST.

Whiners…, I say.

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By Outraged, September 22, 2009 at 11:14 pm Link to this comment

Re: plainsman

Your comment (I’m assuming directed toward my comment): “Fascism, syndicalism, totalitarianism, corporatism, communism, extremism . . . SCHISM.

The point is that the elected government of the United States is directed by corporations not by the electorate.”

While you are not “too” far off the charts regarding your first premise, it is your SECOND premise I would like to engage.

How is it that you feel CORPORATIONS direct the electorate?  I sense that your underlying position to be CORRUPTION.  In other words, it is the CORRUPTION of the state (our elected officials) by corporate entities to be the issue.

If I am correct, what do think the remedy?  I know that in my specific locality the CORRUPTION is rampant. 

Your comment: “Politics may have once had some meaning, in terms of elected officials representing their constituents. That, however, is long past.”

I disagree.  The more people challenge, the more people become involved, the more people that fight, the more that other voices are heard, all the better!

If I “didn’t know better”, I’d think you were on the losing team, so to speak.

Re: C.Curtis.Dillion

Your comment: “Mother nature is already testing ways to eliminate us.  AIDS, ebola, famine, super storms ... the list is long and growing.  One of these days she will get it right and over population will be corrected ... her way.”

Are you serious….?  LOL!  Try again.

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By yours truly, September 22, 2009 at 10:18 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The impression I get from reading all the posts, to date, is that few if any of us see any possibility of change by way of the existing political system, with most posters in favor of some sort of popular movement or uprising, but doubting that such is possible, given the weakness & disarray of the left.  Such negativity belies today’s actual potential for change, what with one in six workers unemployed or underemployed, two unpopular perpetual wars raging, one of which we’re about to lose and the other still losable, not to mention time running out on account of global warming.  No, things aren’t as bad as they were during the great depression, but they’re getting there.  What’s more we have the advantage of an a superb and proven organzing tool that wasn’t even on the drawing board seven decades ago, namely, the Internet.  With it, at the right moment, on the right issue, reaching the masses is but a mouse-click away.  Reaching the masses not just for popular uprisings, but more critically for something that’ll strike fear in the hearts (if they had any) of the ruling class; namely, a general strike, which could start with a message sent out online that goes something like this, “Beginning at 6 am on the first Monday in October, all workers except those engaged in public safety and health care, are urged to demonstrate their love of self, family & country by staying home & not going to work, with the general strike to last until such time as the government agrees to call a constitutional convention as per Article five of the U.S. Constitution.”  Totally nonviolent, that is.  Could anything be easier and more doable?  Ready everyone?

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By delacroix, September 22, 2009 at 9:42 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

french revolution, 300,000 elites executed. the french get a bad rap, but they got that one right

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By Folktruther, September 22, 2009 at 9:12 pm Link to this comment

Dresden Cathedral Reopens, 60 Years After the Bombing

DRESDEN, Germany, Oct. 30—“Some 60,000 people celebrated the reopening of Dresden’s restored baroque cathedral Sunday—60 years after Allied bombs destroyed the 18th-century church and its famed bell-shaped dome during World War II.

German President Horst Koehler, Britain’s Duke of Kent and the ambassadors of the United States and France were among 1,800 guests at the dedication ceremony in the Frauenkirche cathedral.

People from across Germany and beyond gathered in the broad city square outside and watched on giant video screens as the service began to the pealing of the Lutheran church’s eight bells.


From the richly decorated church’s restored pulpit, Bishop Jochen Bohl said the restoration of the cherished landmark was a “great work in the spirit of reconciliation.”

“Our hearts and senses are moved by gratitude and great joy,” Bohl told the audience, which also included German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder and his designated successor, Angela Merkel, who sat next to U.S. Ambassador William R. Timken Jr.

Of the project’s overall cost of $215 million, roughly $120 million came from donations—including a sizable amount from the United States and Britain, whose forces destroyed many German cities in defeating the Nazis.

For 47 years, Dresden residents had known the Frauenkirche, or Church of Our Lady, as a 43-foot-high mound of rubble flanked by two jagged walls. That was all that remained after British and U.S. planes strafed the city with firebombs on the night of Feb. 13-14, 1945.

East German authorities had left it untouched as a memorial. But pressure for its reconstruction and fund-raising gained momentum after the fall of communism and Germany’s 1990 reunification.

Inside, the cathedral is bright, painted in pastel yellows, pinks and blues and trimmed with gold. Light shines through clear glass windows high in the sandstone dome, topped with a golden cross and orb.

Part of the church’s uniqueness is its round structure, the pews fanning out from the altar in a circle like ripples from a stone thrown into water. The upper galleries also hold pews.

And while the inside smells of new wood and fresh paint, there are many reminders of a past that included performances by Bach and Richard Wagner.

Two thousand pieces of the original altar were cleaned and incorporated into the new structure. The church’s outer walls are mottled with original stones, blackened with time and age. Most visible, to the right of the new altar, is the cross that once topped the dome, now twisted and charred.”

so the church was an18th century building, two 43 high walls survived, along with the alter and a cross on the roof of the building.  And you find this comperable, Truthdigger,  to modern buildings that were NOT bombed but were pulverized.
              ***
  Your right,Trughdigger, further discusssion is quite pointless.

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By teadrinker, September 22, 2009 at 9:06 pm Link to this comment

To Candace:
Conspiracy is right. Example: 911. Read about April Gallop’s experience in the Pentagon. Search “Pilots for 911 Truth”. It will open your eyes. If our Gov cannot get to the bottom of what happened here, then our Justice system has failed. The basis of a true Democracy rests upon Justice. We started the Republic by violating the rule of law(Justice) and took land away from the American Indians. We broke every treaty with them, while at the same time, enslaved Blacks for cheap labor. You see in our Republic the development of materialism outweighing ethical and legal valuation, creating a negative trend. This leading to a police state and a defacto Military Dictatorship.

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By Ouroborus, September 22, 2009 at 8:47 pm Link to this comment

WriterOnTheStorm, September 22 at 7:01 pm #

Nice one. As we slide to the rear of the line, India
has cut the queue and is now first in line ahead of
China. The corporatists are now loyal only to
themselves and are the world power. There are finite
resources (both human and natural) and the corporations
are the Ouroborus which is now at it’s own neck.

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By teadrinker, September 22, 2009 at 8:26 pm Link to this comment

Chris Hedges writes truthfully about powerful trends which can’t be stopped. This is the purification in the crucible of war(s), internal and external, that must precede America and the other countries getting their acts together. People desperately hang on to political solutions, but they see the rapidly increasing lack of effectiveness from political leaders and institutions, regardless of country. The exponential convergence of a great variety of social, political,economic and environmental problems will derail the best intentions of any individuals or groups that want to apply remedies to our ailing civilization. Fundamentally, materialism has long since reached it’s zenith, and it begs the question, “Why do we exist as a world?” So, knowing the limits of materialism, it needs to be balanced with spirituality or consciousness if you like. Purity of motive. Purity of motive. Purity of motive.

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By plainsman, September 22, 2009 at 7:52 pm Link to this comment

ardee you might want to watch this. It’s a little off topic, except the military presence prescribed for Pittsburgh is comprised of military personnel similar to those portrayed in the documentary. Although I submit the link reluctantly because it will give right-wing bashers more ammunition. Please keep in mind, those few of you who watch this, that nothing has changed under Obama.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3776750618788792499&ei=bEs-SuuIEojYwgP5peHjAw&q=new+american+century#

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By Candace, September 22, 2009 at 7:50 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I suppose I’m being nit-picky, but Chris wrote “The rage of the disposed is fracturing the country, dividing it into camps that are unmoored from the political mainstream. ” “Disposed” doesn’t make sense to me.  Did he mean “dispossessed”?

Also, if members of the U.S. Government participated in a conspiracy, does that mean all of the government or does that mean a few key players?  If a group of key players did something criminal or treasonous, they need to be exposed and
prosecuted and we need to make reforms to our system to make sure that people can not do the same thing in the future; that doesn’t mean you have to throw everything out.  It means it needs to be cleaned up.

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By truedigger3, September 22, 2009 at 5:29 pm Link to this comment

Re: By WriterOnTheStorm, September 22 at 7:01 pm #


Excellent post. Thank you WriterOnTheStorm.

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By truedigger3, September 22, 2009 at 5:20 pm Link to this comment

StuartH wrote:
“One of my pet peeves is how no one in the United States, anywhere on the political spectrum, seemcs to connect the dots between economics and immigration”
____________________________________________________

Really.!! Are you serious??!
So only you, who can connect the dots between economics and immigration??!! Give us a break!!

StuartH continued and wrote:
“I think if progressives want to start gaining any traction in these large, overarching issues, there needs to be a better analysis of what is going on.  The right wing yelling seems to be getting heard better, even if it is just stupidly racist for the most part.”
___________________________________________________

Traction to do what?
Do you want the so called progressives to help illegal immigrants to steal more of the dwendling jobs left in this country in the middle of a severe recession.
I thougth, the primary objective of the so called progressives is to help the common folks here in the US.
Illegal immigration is hurting the common folks tremendously by crowding the labour market and consequently increasing unemployment and putting a downward pressure on wages,  benefits, working condition and the viability of labor unions.
Yes, NAFTA had hurt a lot of the common folks in Mexico and caused a lot of them to seek jobs in the US.
But NAFTA also had hurt the common folks here in the US tremenously by having their jobs exported to Mexico.
So, the common folks here in US were penalised twice:
First, many of their jobs were exported to Mexico.
Second, they have to compete with an influx of more labour for the little number of jobs left behind.
If the so called progressives want to help the common folks here in the US and in Mexico, then they have to work to cancel NAFTA and the dislocating of many of the Mexican farmers by the US Industrial Agribusiness.

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By truedigger3, September 22, 2009 at 4:14 pm Link to this comment

Re: By Folktruther, September 22 at 1:52 pm #

Folktruther,

You are wasting a lot of time and energy on that subject.
With all due respect, you have some wrong information.
For example, you say the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania was heading toward building 7 where definitely it was heading toward Washington DC.
Building 7 caught fire , and when a all of huge building like that catch fire and the fire is extinguished, not all parts of the huge structure cool down at the same rate and that causes tremendous stresses on the building that tears it apart and causes it to collapse down on itsself and I gave you a historical example of the collapse of the Dresden Cathedral after the enfamous massive fire bombing raid.
The Cathedral caught fire, and the fire was extinguished in it and in its surroundings and everyone thought the Cathedral was saved, but after a while the Cathedral collopased for the reason I mentioned above.
I will not engage in any discussion, anymore with you or anyone else about 911. It is a waste of time and energy and a big distraction.

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By WriterOnTheStorm, September 22, 2009 at 4:01 pm Link to this comment

Funny, Chris, I never heard those theories about the Utopia of globalization. Seemed clear from the git-go
that globalization is to the new corporate-state, what colonialism was to the old nation-state. Up until
recently, it appeared that globalization was going to succeed where colonialism failed.

Here’s how the economic model works: because capitalism is all about maximizing profit taking, it can never
achieve stasis (sustainability), but must always expand. It must continually seek ever cheaper resources to
exploit, and new markets to penetrate. When those resources aren’t available regionally, the money starts
looking in more and more exotic places. A corporation strikes gold when it is able to produce goods where
resources, especially labor, are cheap, and to sell the goods in developed markets with a large middle class
able to buy at top prices.

This was the case in America for several generations. But as the emerging middle class ascended the
economic ladder, it demanded better wages and job benefits, cutting into corporate profit margins. At about
this same time, more efficient means of transportation made for increasingly negligible shipping costs. Thus
the idea of producing goods in a distant part of the globe and selling them in another became irresistable.

The push toward open market ideology was driven foremost by corporate greed. Publicly however, it was
argued that globalization is good for developing nations and emerging markets because it brings jobs and
economic opportunity, and good for developed nations because it brings greater purchasing power to
individuals. Some even claimed it brought geopolitical benefits, because countries rarely go to war with
trading partners, and economic growth allegedly democratizes governments (I would argue that it turns
them into opportunists - better than despots, yes, but only in the short term).

Today, we know that globalization exacts a price. The downside becomes evident when the capital, unhappy
with the rising costs of production in one region, moves on to exploit cheaper resources elsewhere. At that
point, the middle class that arose from production jobs is abandoned. The exodus of domestic
manufacturing has left America with a rotting infrastructure, a collapsing middle class, an economy
artificially buoyed by bubbles and burrowing, and a culture that clings to its faded glory days.

What globalization means to the corporation is that it need not care which lower class it exploits nor which
middle class it sells to. It’s only concern is that it succeeds in exploiting the cheapest resources and selling
in the wealthiest markets. Capitalism, ever true to itself, exercises a scorched earth policy. In the colonial
era, capitalists ravaged entire continents (in the name of god and freedom, naturally) until indigenous
populations wised up and pushed the colonialists out. Now these same people, seduced by the idea of
globalization (bribed?), have let economic colonialists take advantage of them all over again.

The moment one acquiesces to the apparatus is the moment one becomes disposable, when one accepts
disposability as a condition. But hey,  you’ll get a pair of cheap Nikes in the bargain.

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By ardee, September 22, 2009 at 2:24 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther, September 22 at 11:43 am

So, FT, have you yourself seen one of these detention centers? Did you speak to anyone who claims to have seen one? Anyone who claims to have been employed in building one? Read any stories in any newspapers regarding one being constructed nearby?

Conspiracies are everywhere, take up so much of your time that I’ll bet you cannot be bothered to get off your ass, get out in the street and work to build coalitions.

Big waste of time, go register Green voters, work for a progressive candidate, hell, work in a food bank….something constructive, anything at all.

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By Bboy56, September 22, 2009 at 2:21 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

20 years after the collapse of Soviet socialism comes the collapse of American capitalism. The powers are keeping it close to the vest with the American middle class. But it has become more evident that a violent far right extremism is replacing what is left of a democratic in shambles system.

It is all they have left to hold on to, in a system that has been allowed to fail because of radical ideologues posing as leaders at the highest level of governance.

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By John, September 22, 2009 at 12:40 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

C. Curtis Dillon: Pittsburgh collapsed because it was fulfilling the desires of industry and not the needs of Pittsburgh.  The people of Pittsburgh didn’t need all that steel. They needed the food, clothing, shelter, education, that the money those coal and steel jobs provided.  By creating self-sustaining local economies, you make global capital irrelevant.  Once they’re irrelevant they can’t destroy your city. 

Protests in 1968 ended the Vietnam War in 1975?  Even if that were true, we need to move a little faster than that.  Fortunately, there is something we can do, today, that will have more impact than all the anti-globalization protests combined.  Be the change.

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Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, September 22, 2009 at 11:58 am Link to this comment

One thing NAFTA did was triple the number of people coming here from Mexico as their job market plunged. So where is Lou Dobbs in that area? Didn’t help us or Canada either except to lose their manufacturing base. We just globalized the tyranny of the corporation without the concomitant effects to help the worker have their rights too. We aren’t against globalization as long as the worker gets their fair treatment too.

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By StuartH, September 22, 2009 at 11:55 am Link to this comment

Chris Hedges wrote:

“They have formulated trade deals so corporations can speculate across
borders with currency, food and natural resources even as, according to the
Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) of the United Nations, 1.02 billion
people on the planet struggle with hunger. Globalization has obliterated the
ability of many poor countries to protect food staples such as corn, rice, beans
and wheat with subsidies or taxes on imported staples. The abolishment of
these protections has permitted the giant mechanized farms to wipe out tens
of millions of small farmers—2 million in Mexico alone—bankrupting many and
driving them off their land.”

One of my pet peeves is how no one in the United States, anywhere on the
political spectrum, seems to connect the dots between economics and
immigration.

The debate spectrum is about how much to punish the immigrant.  It is as if
the people crossing over the US border coming north popped into existence on
the border and came from no where for no reason.

Even the more progressive alternative news venues are unable to connect these
dots.

Having lived in the Southwest, and on an Indian reservation, my conclusion is
that the last racial prejudice that urban and educated people are willing to
admit is still prevalent, is that against Indian people. 

Largely what is happening in Latin and South America can be seen in the
context of the historical separation of indigenous people from their land base
that we are familiar with as a big part of the 18th and 19th centuries. 

Perhaps this is why this can be happening in plain sight, big as the Andes
mountains and no one can see the cause and effect.

I think if progressives want to start gaining any traction in these large,
overarching issues, there needs to be a better analysis of what is going on.  The
right wing yelling seems to be getting heard better, even if it is just stupidly
racist for the most part.

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By C.Curtis.Dillon, September 22, 2009 at 11:09 am Link to this comment

John:

Ask what globalization did to your neighborhood?  Why not ask the folks in Pittsburgh or any one of a hundred other towns that saw their industrial base disappear.  How exactly does one fulfill it better when the competition is some poor guy working for $100/month and no benefits?  A friend of mine saw KIDS working at an computer board manufacturing plant in the jungle of Indonesia ... how does one compete against that I’m wondering?  Didn’t you just see where Whirlpool is closing their plant and moving 1100 jobs to Mexico!  How, may I ask, does one compete BETTER against that?  When entire towns are destroyed (like Pittsburgh) when their major employers disappear, your simple solution falls miserably short.

As for protests, it was massive protests during the 60s that forced Lyndon Johnson not to run for re-election and convinced Nixon to get out of Vietnam.  It was non-violent protests that ignited the civil rights movement.  It was women marching in the streets in large numbers that won them the vote.  And it will be massive protests that convince (and even frighten) those in power now who think that they can lie their way around our anger.  Without protests, they will use Nixon’s “silent majority” to dance around their obligations and keep doing business as usual.

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By Folktruther, September 22, 2009 at 10:52 am Link to this comment

Truthdigger, how can you believe plainsman’s cmmnent that the government is buiding prisons and calling in the American military to control the Ameriacn people, which it is, and still angrily denegrate anyone who coriticizes the governments absurd narrative about 9/11.  As Paul Craig Roberts says, some leftists conceive the US government as lying about everything but 9/11.

  “What I find puzzling is the people I know don’t believe a word the government says about anything but 9/11.  ..  Instead they get angry with me for doubting their intelligence or integrity’‘’

This from WHY PROPAGAND TRUMPS TRUTH, information clearning house.

The 9/11-anthrax public relations homicide initated:

1.Endless low intensity war.

  2. Destitution inequality

  3.a neoliberal police state to enforce it.

  4.  and a culure of deceit, delusion, and ideological irrationality.

These policies were based on the American historical promotion of homicidal racism.  This time against dark skinned Muslims.

They can’t be combated effectively until one can tell the truth about how this false flag operation changed the American form of government and destroyed representational Democracy.

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By Betrayed, September 22, 2009 at 10:52 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

tropicgirl

You mentioned art, so I thought you might enjoy seeing my technology-based minimal artwork (markdotzler.com).  Thanks for all your well written and heartfelt posts that you have provided here.

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By bist, September 22, 2009 at 10:34 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Here’s what will turn to be the biggest story in all of American History…..which
may also bring about the changes we need.

YouTube - 9/11 Blueprint for Truth Debut on Colorado Public Television - Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjXG1ed1b4Y&feature=player_embedded

YouTube - 9/11 Blueprint for Truth Debut on Colorado Public Television - Part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix_rcz1MB1Y&feature=player_embedded

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By John, September 22, 2009 at 10:22 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Protest?  What exactly is that supposed to accomplish? A nice catharsis for the protesters, perhaps, but nothing more.  The only thing that will bring about change is action.  And not the drama-queen antics known as “direct action”, either.  That might get you on the news, but you’ll have the same impact on society as a side-show geek biting the head off of a chicken.  The only thing that will change the current situation is if you get off your ass, identify the needs that globalization is fulfilling in your community, and fulfill them better than globalization can.  Then convince your neighbors to do the same. Whining at industrialist fatcats will not save us.

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By C.Curtis.Dillon, September 22, 2009 at 9:43 am Link to this comment

bogi666:

I would guess most major “news” organizations troll the big websites looking for information and they might quote something on occasion.  Maybe it indicates you are striking a raw nerve somewhere.  But the offer still stands ... we do have the right to organize peaceful protest and to recruit those who feel like we do.  I’m not advocating violence so why should the all powerful worry about what I think or do?

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By truedigger3, September 22, 2009 at 8:44 am Link to this comment

Re:By plainsman, September 22 at 3:20 am #

Plainsman, I agree with you 100% with minor comment.
You call the current government, a left wing government. How did you arrive to that conclusion.
That is Republican/Rightists spinning for rabble rousing.
The government calls itsself centrist.
But your are absolutely right whatever any government calls itsself or whatever anybody calls it, the geovernment real name is corporate wing.

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By Folktruther, September 22, 2009 at 8:43 am Link to this comment

Ardee, thank you for your post on the irrationlity of plainsman stating that there are “detension centers” and that the government is using military troops against the American people.  I had no idea liberals, like you, were living in such a dream world.

There has been ‘talk’ of such prisons, which you imply don’t exist, because Congress under the Bushites provided nearly half a billion dollars to construct them.  Paul Craig Roberts discribed one in a piece for Counterpunch. 

It is publcially documented that the US, under Bush-Obama, is now training Iraq combat units to be used against the American people.  Their training manual discribed protests as ‘low level Terrorism.’  A combat unit is planned to be used in Pittsburgh against the demonstrators there.

Your view, that the American goverment may be incompetant, or currpt, but not violent against its own people, is total fantasy. Although the organs of representative Democracy still visibly exist in the US, they are devoid of people power.  Representative democracy in the US is dead.

The Bush-Obama regime is in place to defend the monstrous and increasing class inequality predicted by Marx.  This is being done by endless low intensity war and a neoliberal policie state.  Which you obviously are in denial about.

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By tropicgirl, September 22, 2009 at 8:13 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

shemp—
Thanks for being so honest about it…
You said…

““I just really cannot fathom that our gov’t decided it was proper to kill off a
large number of American people just to advocate starting a war.  We are a war
loving nation.  They could have done that without the attacks.
If what you claim is true,  what should we do next?
I don’t completely dismiss you,  and I am not saying it’s inconceivable.  It’s just
from that point,  I don’t know what can be done and lose all hope.”“

I agree with you that is a major problem in thinking about 911 as a false flag
incident. I was almost physically ill when I learned about the details of the
event. But after that you realize that our understanding of what goes on is
through mostly decent, honest eyes and intentions. We live our lives, for the
most part, that way, or at least believe that is the best way.

But truth is just that… painful but cleansing. And it is definitely harder to
accept when it is a new event, guaranteed. But that is the point at which the
realization can help.

How painful was it to realize that American citizens captured and tortured
people for information, for fun, in boredom, in revenge? Hard to believe.
How painful was it to consider that JFK was killed NOT by a lone gunman, with
all its implications? Perhaps RFK and MLK? Hard for me.
How painful was it to learn that capitalistic armies almost always sell arms to
BOTH sides of a conflict to profit and keep it going?
How hard was it to learn (if you have done so) that probably every SINGLE WAR
that was fought, by this country, and others, through history, started with some
sort of a false flag incident. Ranging from “letting things happen” to doing it
“by proxy”. (it is harder than you think to get people to give their children for
war).
How hard was it to realize that our country routinely assassinates leaders we
do not agree with?
How hard was it when you learned that those who colonized our country
exterminated the residents of that country, who, at that time, populated every
corner of this continent? And used diseases as well?

This is very, very bad and painful stuff but all of it is true. What do we do? The
best thing is to at least not deny it. That is a start. Then, with some sort of
human understanding, try to figure out how to stop it.

I have no answers. But this is the world we live in. It has always been this way
to a degree with some beautiful chapters. But its the last thing I will do to help
the enablers.

That is what art is really all about. Telling the truth in a way people can
understand and accept, and not being afraid of doing it. Whether visual art,
literature or film. Have you seen District 9? Gaza.

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Ouroborus's avatar

By Ouroborus, September 22, 2009 at 7:31 am Link to this comment

I say, bottom line; fuck the president; fuck all the
presidents; fuck all the leaders of the world!
The people can figure it out. Get out of the way and
let it happen.

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By Ricardo, September 22, 2009 at 7:16 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

i’ve read all your comments… took me some time… and in the end all i can ask is “why do you think that most of the world doesn’t like america?” i’m european and can’t help think that all american foreign policy, politically and economically speaking, is one big fuck you to the rest of the world! obama? obama is great, but with a population like yours he won’t get anywhere! one health care? that happens in all europe and we’re not socialists. how can a country so intelectually and artistically rich and immense produce such narrowmindness? and don’t bring religion to the discussion, god has no business here!

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By sharonsj, September 22, 2009 at 7:06 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I’d rather be a left-leaning liberal than a right-wing religious nut.  At least I put my money where my mouth is. I really care about things that are alive and already here (people, animals, the planet) instead of blaming gays, abortion doctors, minorities and “liberals” for all our problems.  What the politicians don’t really understand is the immense rage in this country on all levels.  I am a liberal Democrat who daily thinks about murder and mayhem when it comes to a corporate Congress, lobbyists, and uber-rich CEOs.  I want bullets, not ballots.  At the rate this country is falling apart, I expect to see more screaming protesters taking to the streets.  I may be handicapped but I’ll joining them even if it means doing it with my rolling walker.

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G.Anderson's avatar

By G.Anderson, September 22, 2009 at 6:55 am Link to this comment

Stand on the border at Juarez Mexico and wave good bye to your country. Watch it go, and say good by to the American way of life.

No more neat little pink houses, but only burned out crack houses, and homeless people with cardboard signs begging for change, or the wealthy driving their Lexus’s or Benz’s on their way some where else.

The Whirlpool plant is moving to Mexico, with 1100 jobs, which should be illegal. While they are moving out, Mexican drug cartels are moving in, fighting for the right to sell your family cheap meth, and Cocaina…

So suck your thumbs Americano’s and pop another SSRI, stick a joint in your mouth, watch the Wheel of Fortune and wonder how come your country got this way….

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By bogi666, September 22, 2009 at 5:56 am Link to this comment

C. Curtis Dillon, FYI, i’VE HAD 3 EMAILS quoted on TV, the last one may have been last week on the Colbert show. I mail anonymously but it was verbatim although I don’t rule out coincidence since great minds think alike. I’m not beating my own drum, but it does give me impetus to continue.

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