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A Choice Between Peace and Peril

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Posted on Feb 23, 2009
AP photo / Hasan Sarbakhshian

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad speaks at a ceremony in Iran’s nuclear enrichment facility in Natanz.

By Chris Hedges

(Page 2)

The destruction of Iraq as a unified state has left Iran the power broker in the Middle East. This was the result of our handiwork and the misguided militarism of Israeli politicians such as Netanyahu. Iran, like it or not, holds the power to decide the outcome of several conflicts that are vital to American security. It has enormous influence with Hamas and Hezbollah and can accelerate or diminish the conflict between Israel and these groups. It and the U.S. are now the major outside forces in Iraq. The Shiite-led Baghdad government consults closely with Iran and for this reason has told the Iranian resistance group the MEK that it has 60 days to leave Iraqi territory and may see its leaders arrested and tried for war crimes. Once American forces leave Iraq, it is Iran, more than any other nation, that will determine the future of any Iraqi government. And, finally, Iran has for centuries been embroiled in the affairs of Afghanistan. It alone has the influence to stabilize the conflict, one that increasingly threatens to spill over into Pakistan. Afghan politicians have sharply criticized the Iranian government for deporting more than 30,000 Afghans who had fled to Iran since October. Many, unable to find work or return to their villages, have signed up to fight for the Taliban, according to U.S. intelligence reports.

Iran has endured our covert support for armed militant groups from the Mujahedin-e Khalq Organization (MEK or MKO) to the Free Life Party of Kurdistan to the repugnant Jundullah, also known as the Army of God, a Sunni fundamentalist group that operates with U.S. support out of Pakistan. Jundullah has carried out a series of bombings and ambushes inside Iran. The militant group has a habit of beheading Iranians it captures, including a recent group of 16 Iranian police officials, and filming and distributing the executions. Iran has coped with nearly three decades of sanctions imposed by Washington. The U.S. support for the militant groups and the sanctions, meant to help change the regime in Tehran, have failed.

There is a lot riding on whom President Obama names as his special envoy to Iran. If, as expected, it is Dennis Ross, a former official of AIPAC, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, we will be in deep trouble. Ross, who is expected to be placed in charge of the Iranian portfolio this week, is a vocal supporter of Israel’s call for increased pressure on Iran. He is distrusted, even despised, in the Muslim world and especially in Tehran. With good reason, he is not viewed as an impartial broker.

Ross has called for more draconian sanctions against Iran, something Russia or the five companies that provide Iran’s refined petroleum products are not likely to support. (The companies include the Swiss firm Vitol, the French giant Total and the Indian firm Reliance.) Ross backs the covert support for proxy groups and, I would assume, the alleged clandestine campaign by Israel’s intelligence agency, Mossad, to assassinate Iranian nuclear scientists. Mossad is rumored to be behind the death of Ardeshire Hassanpour, a top nuclear scientist at Iran’s Isfahan uranium plant, who died in mysterious circumstances from reported “gas poisoning” in 2007, according to the British newspaper The Daily Telegraph. “Other recent deaths of important figures in the procurement and enrichment process in Iran and Europe have been the result of Israeli ‘hits,’ intended to deprive Tehran of key technical skills at the head of the program, according to the analysts,” the paper reported.

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It remains unmentioned that Israel, which refused to sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty—signed by Iran—is in possession of 200 to 300 nuclear warheads, perhaps the single most important factor in the Middle East nuclear arms race.

“For the US to shape a peaceful relationship with Iran will be difficult under any circumstances,” Stephen Kinzer, author of “All the Shah’s Men,” wrote recently. “If the American negotiating team is led by Ross or another conventional thinker tied to dogmas of the past, it will be impossible.”

Obama has an opportunity to radically alter the course we have charted in the Middle East. The key will be his administration’s relationship with Iran. If he gives in to the Israel lobby, if he empowers Ross, if he defines Iran as the enemy before he begins to attempt a negotiated peace, he could ignite a fuse that will see our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan evolve into a regional conflagration. This may be the most important decision of his presidency. Let’s pray he does not blow it.


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By Night-Gaunt, August 14, 2009 at 8:37 am Link to this comment

Thank you Cyrena for the brief history. People must understand that no matter what treaties, secret or otherwise,  a country will ultimate do what it needs for itself. That includes Israel. Well done.

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By Carna, August 14, 2009 at 7:56 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Greeting. Is there life before death? Help me! Can not find sites on the: Stock market investing advise. I found only this - stock market earnings. Here is a chart from a recent issue of contrary investor that touched on the above issues. Strategies for making money day trading stocks online. Best regards :-(, Carna from Brazil.

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By cyrena, March 9, 2009 at 8:02 pm Link to this comment

1 of 3
By prosefights, March 9 at 7:26 pm

•  “WWIII if Israel bombs Iran nuclear electric power generation facilities? …We may see.”

Well prosefights,

We’ve certainly ‘seen’ it before. (Israel attacking any state in the region with rights to nuclear technology as provided by the NPT and administers through the IAEA). Here’s what they did to Iraq in the same vein, some 30 years ago. (the article below says 1981, though I thought it was 1978)

June 1995, Pages 81-82
Middle East History—It Happened in June
Israel Bombs Iraq’s Osirak Nuclear Research Facility
By Donald Neff

“It was 14 years ago, on June 7, 1981, that 16 U.S.-made Israeli warplanes bombed and destroyed Iraq’s Osirak nuclear research facility near Baghdad, more than 600 miles from Israel’s borders.1

Prime Minister Menachem Begin claimed the reactor was about to go into operation and was a threat to Israel because it could produce nuclear weapons. Begin’s claims were contradicted by a number of experts, but there was considerable circumstantial evidence that Iraq indeed hoped eventually to develop a nuclear weapon. 2 However, Israel’s critics pointed out that Iraq was a signatory to the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, which allowed international inspections of the nuclear facility, while Israel itself refused to sign the treaty, refused inspections of its nuclear facility, and was widely believed to have a large nuclear arsenal. 3

The Attack’s Deeper Meaning
Thus the deeper meaning of the attack was that it amounted to a declaration of war against the Arab world’s efforts to enter the atomic age. The attack was Israel’s way of declaring that only the Jewish state would be allowed to participate in advanced technology, while the Arabs would be consigned to non-nuclear technology and second-class economies.

Israel was universally condemned. The White House advised Congress that a “substantial” violation of the Arms Export Control Act prohibition against the use of U.S. weapons except in self-defense “may have occurred” in Israel’s bombing of Iraq’s nuclear facility.4 It was the third time the act had been invoked against Israel, the first two occurring during the Carter administration because of Israeli attacks on Lebanon.5 But, as in the prior cases, Congress declined to take any action.6

Moreover, President Ronald Reagan soon found extenuating circumstances for Israel’s conduct. Reagan said: “Israel might have sincerely believed it was a defensive move,” adding: “It is difficult for me to envision Israel as being a threat to its neighbors.“7 While Washington joined in a unanimous U.N. Security Council resolution “strongly” condemning Israel, privately U.S. officials made it known that the United States would veto any article that called for sanctions against Israel. As a result of this pressure, council Resolution 487 stopped short of imposing sanctions and Israel’s aggression was let go with a slap on the wrist. 8
Bobby Inman, the No. 2 man at the Central Intelligence Agency, was less forgiving. He realized that the Israeli warplanes could not have flown to their target without having been guided by aerial photographs supplied by U.S. spy satellites. Under a secret arrangement worked out with Israeli intelligence by Director of Central Intelligence William J. Casey, Israel had been granted access to U.S. satellite photography.9 However, Inman knew that access was to be limited to areas posing potential “direct threats” to Israel, in Inman’s words. When he discovered Israel had drawn material on such far-away areas as Iraq, Libya and Pakistan, he made a decision to limit its access to photographs covering areas no farther than 250 miles from Israel’s border, thereby reducing Israel’s satellite intelligence to its immediate neighbors. 10 “

http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0695/9506081.htm

TBC

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By cyrena, March 9, 2009 at 7:59 pm Link to this comment

2 of 3

“Only the Jewish state would be allowed to participate in advanced technology.

This decision infuriated Israel’s supporters, and nearly 13 years later came back to haunt Inman when he was nominated by President Bill Clinton as secretary of defense. Israel’s supporters, in particular columnist William Safire of the New York Times, took advantage of the occasion to launch harsh personal attacks against Inman, convincing him he could not effectively run the Pentagon amid such powerful criticism. Inman declined the nomination.
Actually, Israel’s aggressive intentions toward Iraq should have come as no surprise to anyone, particularly the CIA. Since at least 1979 it had been waging a secret war aimed at disrupting Iraq’s nuclear program. The campaign was carried out by Israel’s Mossad intelligence agency under the name Operation Sphinx.12 The operation began at least as early as April 6, 1979, when three bomb explosions in the nuclear facility of the French firm of Constructions Navales et Industrielles de la Méditerranée in La Seyne-Sur-Mer near Marseilles blew up reactor cores about to be shipped to Iraq’s facility, setting back Iraq’s program by at least half a year. 13

On June 13, 1980, Dr. Yahya Meshad, an Egyptian nuclear physicist working for Iraq’s Atomic Energy Commission, was killed in his Paris hotel room. Meshad had been in France checking on highly enriched uranium that was about to be shipped as the first fuel for Iraq’s reactor and, according to Mossad defector Victor Ostrovsky, was the victim of Mossad agents.14 Two months later, starting Aug. 2, a series of bombs exploded at the offices or residences of officials of Iraq’s key suppliers in Italy and France: SNIA-Techint, Ansaldo Mercanico Nucleare and Techniatome. The three firms were supplying Iraq with a reactor and hot cells and their officials and workers were harassed by threatening letters. 15

An Earlier Terror Campaign

The terror campaign against Iraq was similar to one carried out by Israel 19 years earlier against West German scientists working on Egypt’s rocket program. That campaign was called Operation Damocles and involved kidnapping and letterbombs which caused the deaths of at least five persons in 1962-63.16 By the time Israel halted its campaign against the German scientists, it had already become clear that, in the words of Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion’s biographer, they “were a group of mediocre scientists who had developed antiquated missiles.

The panic that had overtaken the country’s leadership…was highly exaggerated.” 17 But the damage was done. Not only did the victims suffer directly, but the operation convinced Egypt’s leadership of Israel’s unyielding hostility.

While Israel’s suspicions against Iraq may have been more realistic, its disregard of the significant diplomatic effects of its violent action was similarly myopic. Although Israel repeatedly congratulated itself during the 1991 war against Iraq that its attack represented an early blow to Saddam’s militancy, there can be little doubt that one result of the attack was to further radicalize the Iraqi leader and add to his suspicions of the West and his determination to build up Iraq’s war machine.18

There can be no certainty, of course, that diplomacy would have stemmed Saddam’s ambitions. But there can be no doubt that once Israel attacked Iraq with U.S.-made warplanes, Saddam would do whatever he could to harm America and its Persian Gulf friends like Kuwait. The culmination of Saddam’s hatred came a decade later when a half-million American military personnel had to be rushed to the Gulf area to war against Iraq’s invasion of Kuwait.”

http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0695/9506081.htm

TBC

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By cyrena, March 9, 2009 at 7:57 pm Link to this comment

3 of 3
RECOMMENDED READING:
Bar-Zohar, Michael, Ben-Gurion: A Biography, New York, Delacorte Press, 1978.

Ben-Gurion, David, Israel: A Personal History, New York, Funk & Wagnalls, Inc., 1971.

*Green, Stephen, Living by the Sword: America and Israel in the Middle East, 1968-87, Brattleboro, VT, Amana Books, 1988.

*Hersh, Seymour M., The Samson Option: Israel’s Nuclear Arsenal and American Foreign Policy , New York, Random House, 1991.

Nakhleh, Issa, Encyclopedia of the Palestine Problem, New York, Intercontinental Books, 1991.

*Neff, Donald, Warriors for Jerusalem: The Six Days That Changed the Middle East, New York, Linden Press/Simon & Schuster, 1984, and Brattleboro, VT: Amana Books, 1988.

Ostrovsky, Victor and Claire Hoy, By Way of Deception, New York, St. Martin’s Press, 1990.

*Raviv, Dan and Yossi Melman, Every Spy a Prince: The Complete History of Israel’s Intelligence Community, Boston, Houghton Mifflin Company, 1990.

Spector, Leonard S., Nuclear Proliferation Today, New York, Vintage Books, 1984.

Steven, Stewart, The Spymasters of Israel, New York, Macmillan Publishing Co., Inc., 1980.

Tillman, Seth, The United States in the Middle East: Interests and Obstacles, Bloomington, Indiana University Press, 1982.

Weissman, Steve and Herbert Krosney, The Islamic Bomb: The Nuclear Threat to Israel and the Middle East, New York, Times Books, 1981.

Woodward, Bob, Veil: The Secret Wars of the CIA 1981-1987, New York, Simon and Schuster, 1987.

NOTES:

1 Tillman, The United States in the Middle East, p. 38; also see Green, Living by the Sword, pp. 135-52; Hersh, The Samson Option, pp. 8-10; Raviv and Melman, Every Spy a Prince, pp. 25-52.

2 Spector, Nuclear Proliferation Today, pp. 167-75; George Lardner Jr., and R. Jeffrey Smith, Washington Post, 12/16/92. Also see Elaine Sciolino, New York Times, 11/30/92; Jack Anderson and Michael Binstein, Op-ed, “Iran’s Nuclear Ambitions,” Washington Post, 12/20/92.

3 Tillman, The United States in the Middle East, pp. 38-9.

4 Ibid. , p. 39, and Institute for Palestine Studies, International Documents on Palestine, 1981, pp. 181-91.

5 The earlier uses were on April 5, 1978 and Aug. 6, 1979.

6 New York Times, 8/18/81, and Report by the Comptroller General, “U.S. Assistance to the State of Israel,” General Accounting Office, GAO/ID-83-51, June 24, 1983, pp. 24-5.

7 Institute for Palestine Studies, International Documents on Palestine, 1981, p. 206.

8 Ibid., p. 210.

9 Woodward, Veil, p. 160.

10 Transcript, Inman press conference, Austin, TX, 1/18/94; excerpts are in the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, February/March 1994.

11 Transcript, Inman press conference, Austin, TX, 1/18/94.

12 Ostrovsky and Hoy, By Way of Deception, pp. 1-28, and Raviv and Melman, Every Spy a Prince, pp. 250-2.

13 In addition to Ostrovsky and Hoy, and Raviv and Melman, see Weissman and Krosney, The Islamic Bomb, pp. 227-8, and Spector, Nuclear Proliferation Today , p. 176.

14 Ostrovsky and Hoy, By Way of Deception, p. 23.

15 Spector, Nuclear Proliferation Today, pp. 176-7.

16 Steven, The Spymasters of Israel , pp. 145-7l
Also see Bar-Zohar, Ben-Gurion, pp. 301-2; Nakhleh, Encyclopedia of the Palestine Problem, p. 832; Neff, Warriors for Jerusalem, pp. 101-2; and Raviv and Melman, Every Spy a Prince , pp. 122-5. Also see Insight Team, the Sunday Times of London, 9/23/72, for a history of Israel’s introduction of the use of letterbombs in the Middle East.

17 Bar-Zohar, Ben-Gurion, pp. 301-2.

18 Donald Neff, “The U.S., Iraq, Israel and Iran: Backdrop to War,” Journal of Palestine Studies, Summer 1991.

*Available from the AET Book Club

http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0695/9506081.htm

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By Shingo, March 9, 2009 at 4:57 pm Link to this comment

Israel has been saying that for 6 years.  We’ve been constantly told that Iran was 6 months away from acquiring a nuke since then.  Of course, no evidence is EVER produced.

What Yadlin omits is that fact that the enrichment facilities are under strict IAEA supervision and that Iran would have to expel the IAEA from Iran before procuring the high-enriched uranium needed to build a bomb.;

>> WWIII if Israel bombs Iran nuclear electric power generation facilities?

This proves how fraudulent the claim is.  The reactor itself has no role in the enrichment process because the Iranians are enriching uranium, not extracting plutonium.

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By prosefights, March 9, 2009 at 4:26 pm Link to this comment

Yadlin said the Islamic republic hoped to use the expected dialogue with the Obama administration to buy time to procure the amount of high-enriched uranium needed to build a bomb comment?

WWIII? comment. Let see if it get posted. We’re surprised!

Comment got posted.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1236269373103&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

WWIII if Israel bombs Iran nuclear electric power generation facilities?

We may see.

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By Inherit The Wind, March 8, 2009 at 12:13 pm Link to this comment

Natascha
Thanks! That’s unexpected but appreciated. It sometimes feels like I’m a lone voice in the wilderness.

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By Natascha, March 7, 2009 at 7:40 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

To Inherit the Wind:  Thank you for your wisdom, eloquence, and intelligence.  Your posts are greatly appreciated by me and (I have no doubt) by many others.

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By cyrena, February 27, 2009 at 8:32 pm Link to this comment

By WriterOnTheStorm, February 27 at 5:30 pm

Writer, you write in appreciation of wadosy, (whom I also appreciate) and I write in the same for you.

•  “..I have often thought that the creation of Israel was one of the most anti-Semitic acts in history. The message was clear: you’re a troublesome bunch, so go to your patch of desert and leave the rest of us alone. In a sense, Europe was creating a reservation for the Jews. This played into two seemingly opposing Jewish mindsets: a self image as the outcast/victim,  and a tendency to outgroup non-Jews, which can sometimes manifest as Jewish supremacy.”

Ya know, this same thing has crossed my mind, (the clear message that is about being a troublesome bunch) though of course no one would dare voice such a thing, other than to wonder out loud why a bunch of Jews wound up in the middle of the Arabian desert ANY damn way, if such ‘natural hostilities’ exist between Jews and Arabs and/or Muslims. (the cruelest irony being their shared Semitic genealogy) that would ‘seem’ to be the LAST place to send them.

However, as an anti-Semitic gesture on the part of Europe, it probably was exactly that…go off and annoy your cousins, and leave us alone. In fact, “Here; we’re so good at colonizing the world, we’ll give you the Middle East to colonize for yourself.” The Brits were apparently willing to make such concessions, if only by default or lack of action.

Kill two birds with one stone that way.

But then you continue to the far more serious consequences:

•  “It’s this latter tendency which makes it so difficult for anyone with a conscience to support Israel today. America may not always live up to its principals of freedom of religion, and color-blindness, but to actively abet a country which flouts these principals, and has repeatedly and even systematically crossed the bounds of decency, morality, and legality to protect its ethnic and religious purity, is egregious in the extreme.”

And so it is, as you’ve articulated so eloquently.

Thanks…

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By prosefights, February 27, 2009 at 7:40 pm Link to this comment

“Remarks comparing Iran to Nazi Germany
Strongly against Iran’s pursuit of uranium enrichment, Netanyahu said “It’s 1938, and Iran is Germany, and Iran is racing to arm itself with atomic bombs”.[15][16] In an 8 March 2007 interview with CNN, he asserted that there is only one difference between Nazi Germany and the Islamic Republic of Iran, namely that the first entered a worldwide conflict and then sought atomic weapons, while the latter is first seeking atomic weapons and, once it has them, will then start a world war.

Netanyahu repeated these remarks at a news conference in April, 2008, stating that “where that [Nazi] regime embarked on a global conflict before it developed nuclear weapons,” he said. “This regime [Iran] is developing nuclear weapons before it embarks on a global conflict.”[17]”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Netanyahu

Bibi does not appear to be very intelligent.

We’ve observed that Bibi has his mouth open lots.

Let’s hope some explain the electricity problem to him.


Ed B - Thursday February 26, 2009 11:59AM EST

It’s even worse. As the existing Coal power plants come off line this power needs to be replaced. 50% of your power is from coal - 50% of that 50% are over their useful life span of 30 years. Between Coal and Nuclear power you have 70% of our present energy sources represented. Add in Natural Gas and you’re up to 92%. So….today we are using alternatives to produce about 8% (includes hydro power). I sincerely doubt that you can replace the present system with something that hasn’t even been invented yet. We’re so screwed…...

http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/article/194485/Alternative-Energy-Is-a-Giant-Capital-Pit-Kedrosky-Says-“There’s-No-There-There”?tickers=AMAT,KLN,PBW,FSLR,WFR,PWND,ENER

Bibi could start WWII?

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By MeHere, February 27, 2009 at 7:14 pm Link to this comment

Sodium:

Good points.
An Israeli once told me
- that the “Samson Option” is a real consideration on the part of many Israelis and their leaders, and

- that as much as 50% of the Israeli population would leave the country if it was feasible.

Report this

By MeHere, February 27, 2009 at 7:03 pm Link to this comment

Alan MacDonald: 

Thanks for your comment!
What an intelligent and wise way to put the madness we are witnessing into a greater context.

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By Crimes of the State Blog, February 27, 2009 at 5:36 pm Link to this comment

Very eloquent and informed perspective:

“As The Arabs See The Jews”
King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia
The American Magazine November, 1947
http://informationclearinghouse.info/article22108.htm

Excerpt:

“...From that time Palestine ceased to be a Jewish country, in any conceivable sense.

This was 1,815 years ago, and yet the Jews solemnly pretend they still own Palestine! If such fantasy were allowed, how the map of the world would dance about!

Italians might claim England, which the Romans held so long. England might claim France, “homeland” of the conquering Normans. And the French Normans might claim Norway, where their ancestors originated. And incidentally, we Arabs might claim Spain, which we held for 700 years.

Many Mexicans might claim Spain, “homeland” of their forefathers. They might even claim Texas, which was Mexican until 100 years ago. And suppose the American Indians claimed the “homeland” of which they were the sole, native, and ancient occupants until only some 450 years ago!

I am not being facetious. All these claims are just as valid—or just as fantastic—as the Jewish “historic connection” with Palestine. Most are more valid.”

http://crimesofthestate.blogspot.com/

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By Alan MacDonald, February 27, 2009 at 2:40 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Imagine, in this very modern 21st century, that we are still looking toward the end of the last of tribal ‘empire-thinking’.

We are a multi-ethnic, multi-cultural, multi-racial, even post-racial, sectarian, mixing-pot-world of democracies on a small fragile planet—- and we are still not beyond the danger of existential death at the hands of ancient and irrelevant tribal ‘empire-thinking’.

As only Kurt Vonnegut’s sense of ironic black humor might envision, “It is as if the whole human race was about to sit down to a celebratory picnic for successfully reaching the 21st century, when we are all killed by one remaining giant dinosaur.”

The last people in the world who should want to stay (or ever promote) a world of tribalism, are the Jews.

Fighter pilots have a saying, “speed is life”.  But, for all the rest of us, “inclusiveness is life”—- and tribalism is death by the oldest lie of empire.

Racism is another old lie of empire.  Nationalism is a somewhat newer lie of empire.  While, economic ideology is the newest, and current, lie of empire. 

But all the lies and deceptions of Empire lead to the very same grave—- so choose your poison, stupidly.  Or choose your inclusiveness, wisely.

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By WriterOnTheStorm, February 27, 2009 at 1:30 pm Link to this comment

Wadosy,

Having been a follower of TD since it’s inception, I’ve seen and been part of many threads on the subject of the ME conflict. In that time, I have rarely encountered a voice as informed, capable, and sure as yourself. You’ve managed to get most of the regular defenders of Zionism to toss their hats into the ring. They are desperate to make you show your hand, to make you appear strident or paranoid, so that they might reassure themselves that you are just another anti-Semite who’s arguments can then be ignored.

Even more surprising, you’ve got most of the apologists to as much as admit that Israel is engaged in a genocidal colonial project not unlike our own Manifest Destiny. Their rhetoric is now reduced to “you did it, so why shouldn’t we”. A pathetic and ultimately racist argument, akin to claiming that slavery should be permitted because we once in our dark past considered it acceptable.

The age of colonialism is past. Theordor Herzl was 100 years too late. However, part of the mindset of American Exceptionalism demands that Americans cling to a strain of imperialist thinking, and Zionists have become adept at exploiting this.

I have often thought that the creation of Israel was one of the most anti-Semitic acts in history. The message was clear: you’re a troublesome bunch, so go to your patch of desert and leave the rest of us alone. In a sense, Europe was creating a reservation for the Jews. This played into two seemingly opposing Jewish mindsets: a self image as the outcast/victim,  and a tendency to outgroup non-Jews, which can sometimes manifest as Jewish supremacy.

It’s this latter tendency which makes it so difficult for anyone with a conscience to support Israel today. America may not always live up to its principals of freedom of religion, and color-blindness, but to actively abet a country which flouts these principals, and has repeatedly and even systematically crossed the bounds of decency, morality, and legality to protect its ethnic and religious purity, is egregious in the extreme.

If one reads the Tanakh carefully, a constant theme emerges: god causing the Jews to suffer despite being told that they are his chosen people, and the inevitable conclusion that they must be doing something to piss the big man off. I guess some things never change.

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By wadosy, February 27, 2009 at 9:53 am Link to this comment

killing tens of thousands of people and terrorizing hundreds of thousands more so you can steal their land is not evil?

is it stupid, then…? ...maybe criminal…?

...but wait a darn minute here: one of israel’s founding fathers, a pole, said “there’s nothing in jewish ethics or jewish tradition that disqualifies terrorism as a means of combat”... and he led one of the gangs of terrorists that massacred and terrorized palestinians to steal the land upon which israel was founded.

but this guy wasnt evil, he was just… what? ...stupid? ...maybe criminal…? ...a victim of radical jewish philosophy?

but on the other hand, if terrorism isnt evil, how come we’re currently engaged in a “war on terror”?

have we, like the israelis, renounced moral behavior and declared war on terror because terrorism is good?

...but then certain enemies of israel, who supposedly support terrorists, were designated an “axis of evil”... why is that? ...and why was one of those enemies bombed to smithereens, and why is there such an effort to expand the bombing to include another member of the “axis of evil”?

you gots to have a program to keep this stuff sorted out.

.

then you’ve got to attempt to paint all jews with the same brush, a tactic used by the radical jewish racketeers of the ADL, who deem any criticism of israel as “antisemitism”, and, according to them, criticism of israel and “antisemitism” are based on a belief that jews are genetically evil.

sorry, but most jews are genetic victims, just like everybody else, and it’s way too damn bad that some of those jews let themselves be bulldozed into supporting israel and its atrocious ethics by the atrocious tactics of the atrocious racketeers of the atrocious and predatory ADL, which specializes in victimizing its own people to the glory of its radical and atrocious masters.

but, like i said before, there doesnt seem to be any solution other than to let this current aberration run its course in hopes that decent jews are not caught up in the reprisals.

.

walt and mearsheimer have documented israeli bias in the media, politics and foreign policy… the agenda-setting organ of israeli american media, the new york times, was lead liar in the campaign of lies that got us into iraq, and most of the main players in the US financial system, currently being looted, are jewish.

so far as i can tell, none of this is my fault.

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By Fadel Abdallah, February 27, 2009 at 8:57 am Link to this comment

Long ago the American Oligarchy has chosen and institutionalized the path of peril, away from peace. And there is no power of hope for change that will alter that. The full cycle must reach its natural conclusion, and those who for so long lived by the sword must perish by the sword!

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By prosefights, February 27, 2009 at 8:04 am Link to this comment

Alternative Energy Is a Giant Capital Pit, Kedrosky Says: “There’s No There There”

http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/article/194485/Alternative-Energy-Is-a-Giant-Capital-Pit-Kedrosky-Says-“There’s-No-There-There”?tickers=AMAT,KLN,PBW,FSLR,WFR,PWND,ENER

evoked comment

Ed B - Thursday February 26, 2009 11:59AM EST

It’s even worse. As the existing Coal power plants come off line this power needs to be replaced. 50% of your power is from coal - 50% of that 50% are over their useful life span of 30 years. Between Coal and Nuclear power you have 70% of our present energy sources represented. Add in Natural Gas and you’re up to 92%. So….today we are using alternatives to produce about 8% (includes hydro power). I sincerely doubt that you can replace the present system with something that hasn’t even been invented yet. We’re so screwed…...

Look like both Iran and US [and perhaps about every other country] face a similar electric energy problem?

Wednesday August 6, 2008 07:19

The charge infuriates Dr. Etemad. “With the Shah, we also came to the conclusion that Iran was in great need of nuclear energy because our population was steadily growing and our gas and oil will run out. That’s why even though I was in the old regime, I should be fair to the new regime because they are following the same line.


Friday September 5, 2008 07:56
Wed, 03 Sep 2008 22:32:58 GMT Currently suffering from electricity shortage, Iran has been forced to adopt a rationing program by scheduling power outages - of up to two hours a day - across both urban and rural areas in the country.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 27, 2009 at 5:12 am Link to this comment

wadosy, February 27 at 3:54 am #

israel was founded in evil, by what must have been evil people.

Hitlerian jabber.

seeing as how the evil has continued since israel’s founding, we have to conclude the present israeli leadership is evil… especially as prominent israelis are saying that israel must abandon even the pretense of morality while denying that israel’s founding premise is immoral.

More Hitlerian blather.

how do you get evil people to become decent people? ...i dont know.


is there a magician powerful enough to heal israel’s moral leprosy? ...if there is no magic powerful enough to heal israel, what solution is there other than to let the evil run its course, and hope that decent jews are not caught up in the reprisals?

In other words, just like the Nazis, the KKK and Moslem fundamentalist extremists insist, Jews are fundamentally, genetically evil.


i have no business proposing solutions to israel’s problems, [/]i]

Of course you do.  You go around attacking every thing and every action Israel takes as evil, BUT OFFER NO SOLUTION.

I’m pretty sure now, after seeing this post, I know why—but more below…


but do i have a right to diagnose and propose solutions to america’s problems, one problem being: israel’s domination of american politics and media.

Here we get to the nub of it: The old lie going back to Henry Ford “Jews control the media”  Why don’t you add the lie that Jews control the banking system.

Wadosy, you have hit to many code words to be able to conceal yourself anymore:  The inference has not detours: You are fundamentally a believer that Jews are genetically evil.  You refuse to post ANY solution to the issue of Israel because you know when you do, even the really virulent Israel-haters like FolkTruther and Robert won’t be able to tolerate it.

It’s clear your solution is….“The Final Solution”.

You disgust me with your phony moralist arguments.

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By wadosy, February 27, 2009 at 2:39 am Link to this comment

here’s an interesting article from the jewish world review:

A little over half a century ago, Isaac Asimov created a new universe, home to a decaying galactic empire and a novel form of social order known as the “Foundation.”


Asimov’s “Foundation” novels — the most famous science-fiction trilogy between “Lord of the Rings” and “Star Wars” — described a new science of social behavior called psychohistory. Mixing psychology with math, psychohistory hijacked the methods of physics to precisely predict the future course of human events.


Today, Asimov’s vision is no longer wholly fiction. His psychohistory exists in a loose confederation of research enterprises seeking equations that capture patterns in human behavior. These enterprises go by different names and treat different aspects of the issue. But they all share a goal of better understanding the present in order to foresee the future, and possibly help shape it.

Asimov’s ‘Foundation’ theories on society move from fiction to academia


well, 9/11 sure shaped the world, didnt it?


doc aumann got a nobel prize for his game theory, berezovsky is a mathematician—a “decision theory” guy—and so is chalabi.


...I’ve got an uneasy feeling that we might be experiencing the first world war run by computers, and the whole project was started with sharon’s visit to the al aqsa mosque, accompanied by 1000 cops.
 
The logic runs like this: sharon, on advice from aumann, his nobel-caliber game theory guy, deliberately touched off the second intifada in september of 2000, which was beamed 24/7 into american homes to establish the fact that palestinians, and arabs in general, are murderous brutes.

it comes as no surprise to learn that hamas, blamed for most of the terrorism against israel, had been supported by israel, especially in view of israel’s history of false flags… it’s likely that hamas couldnt blow up a balloon, let alone a bus, without israel knowing about it a week in advance.
 
Once americans had been convinced that arabs were capable of any atrocity, 9/11 was staged… and staging 9/11 was duck soup seeing as how PNAC signatories had been installed by the 2000 elections, which hinged on a recount in a state that was governed by a PNAC member and brother of the president-elect.
 
The basic plan for the 9/11 follow-up had been in existence for decades, starting with oded yinon in 1982, progressing to wolfowitz’s defense dept document in 1992 and perle’s “clean break” document for netanyahu in 1996, and finally PNAC’s “rebuilding america’s defenses” of september 2000—which indicated a need for “a new pearl harbor” and was adopted in 2002 as the national defense strategy. the only thing left to work out would be the details.
 
Given the roles played by berezovsky—-calling for violent regime change in russia after he was “doublecrossed” by putin—- and chalabi—-PNAC’s designated controller of iraq—- there’s no trouble imagining doc aumann’s crays burning the midnight oil, trying to figure out what bombing, what false flag, what assassination, what manipulation of what market, etc, etc, etc…. will bring about the desired result…

the problem with all this is: how far do you let your paranoia go? ...you think it’s as bad as it possibly can be, and then something else pops up that fits perfectly and makes everything worse.

...for instance, aumann’s despair about the future of israel.

Israel’s downfall? Two Nobel Prize laureates pessimistic about Israel’s future from ynet israeli news

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By wadosy, February 27, 2009 at 1:56 am Link to this comment

cyrena says,

“...all of these mergers (at least the ones most profitable over the past 8 years, have occurred over the past…eight years, matching the era of the neocon regime, based on the much earlier determined goals of the PNAC.”

that’s what it looks like.


there’s another facet here: goverment by computers and game theory… what isaac asimov called “psychohistorians”...

a basic tenet of government by psychohistory: in public, lie your ass off, always.

sound like anybody you’re familiar with?

.

The extension introduces yet another strategic element: incentives to conceal or reveal private information to other players.

How might a person, firm or country who has extra information utilize the advantage?

How might an ignorant player infer information known to another player by observing that player’s past actions?

Should an informed player take advantage of the information for short-run gains, thereby risking to reveal his information to other players, or should he conceal the information in order to gain more in the future?

Robert Aumann’s and Thomas Schelling’s Contributions to Game Theory

we can see from aumann’s game theories why it’s so important to control the flow of information…

israel, the israeli americans, exxon and their fellow travelers knew about peak oil and global warming long before 9/11, and they had to respond to peak oil and global warming before peak oil and global warming became obvious.

...all of which accounts for the AEI/CERA/exxon efforts to deny the existence of global warming and peak oil.

it’s just too damn bad that aumann is being hoisted with his own game theory petard, as the actions of AEI/CERA/PNAC/exxon/israel are revealing an awareness of peak oil and global warming, which were their motives to stage 9/11.
.

so assuming you’ve tipped your hand… if you’ve revealed that you have knowledge of something that is obviously a motive for a crime you’ve committed, then you have to keep lying and lying and lying, in hopes of convincing people your motive doesnt exist, in hopes of convincing people you’re innocent.

but in the meantime, you’re plugging the most likely approximation of truth into your computers, and that “most likely approximation of truth” bears no resemblance to the chickenfeed you put out for public consumption.

...and if you committed the crime you’re trying to deny, you have an advantage when it comes to accurately programming the crays, dont you?

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By cyrena, February 27, 2009 at 1:34 am Link to this comment

By wadosy, February 27 at 4:25 am #

You’ve got several excellent points here wadosy, and I appreciate the ‘exxon-israel’ link as well. I’d never come across that, but it doesn’t surprise me in the least.

I noticed something earlier today when I was cruising through on some related research. It was a breakdown of all of the oil and petroleum product refiners, processors, distributors, and how they’d merged into whatever. There was never any doubt in my mind that several of them must be associated with Israel, but I’d never seen anything documented. Again, none of this is a surprise.

And, all of these mergers (at least the ones most profitable over the past 8 years, have occurred over the past…eight years, matching the era of the neocon regime, based on the much earlier determined goals of the PNAC.

So, there we have it. This is all part of that package, and they will do anything to protect it.

I don’t see an ‘easy’ way out of this for Barack Obama, because he’ll need to be exceedingly ‘fluid’ in his approach to this…like an ideological acrobat or whatever.

I suspect that the ideology and the transformations that he envisions are NOT going to be easily accepted by what may be a small but still very powerful cabal of rogues who aren’t gonna allow everything they’ve managed thus far, (again, in the past 8 years) to end, just because their ‘official’ presence within the apparatus has ended.

Besides that, far too many of them are still embedded in the official apparatus, even if we don’t see or hear from them. (Though cheney hasn’t minded issuing threats already, denouncing Obama’s decision to close gitmo - threatening us with another 9/11 as a result).

So, these are perilous times for all of us, including him.

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By wadosy, February 27, 2009 at 12:37 am Link to this comment

security for israel, oil for exxon: US taxpayers foot the bill


it’s no secret that the israelis have been pushing for reassembly of the middle east for decades, and it seems reasonable to assume that israel—-located as it is adjacent to the world’s biggest oil patch—- would not be nearly as important to america if america were not so dependent on oil…. for instance, if america was supplying itself with electricity from nuke plants built and operated by exxon, fueled with uranium from exxon mines.

once exxon became aware of israeli americans’ determination to thwart development of nuke plants, once exxon became aware of the power of the israeli american media, once exxon became aware of israeli and israeli american determination to remodel the middle east, exxon gave up on their nukes and joined up with the israeli americans in their land and oil acquisition project.

since the american taxpayer would be footing the bill for the project—-at a time when oil is getting scarce and exploration and production costs are soaring—- an alliance with the israeli americans and their PNAC project is the cheapest way for exxon to grab a chunk of the biggest oil reserves in the world.

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By wadosy, February 27, 2009 at 12:34 am Link to this comment

here’s how exxon got hooked up with the israeli americans, in case you’re interested.

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By wadosy, February 27, 2009 at 12:25 am Link to this comment

Shingo says,

“That sounds more than a little far fetched paranoid. I am no fan of Israel, but I think it’s in all our interests to keep this debate real.”

if you’ve abandoned morality, what’s the problem with planting nukes, especially if you see this peak oil business coming, and realize that this is your last chance to secure israel before the oil runs out?

america’s doomed because of peak oil anyhow, so you might as well go for broke in using america up to secure israel.

...the sad part being, from an american standpoint, we might have been able to transition to post-oil if we werent spending half a trillion dollars a year defending israel.

but no. what we have instead is israeli americans of the AEI and CERA and their exxon ally denying the very existence of peak oil and global warming…

...and they have to deny the existence of peak oil and global warming because peak oil and global warming were their motives for staging 9/11 to kick off the PNAC land and oil acquisition project.

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By Shingo, February 27, 2009 at 12:12 am Link to this comment

wadosy,

>> seems likely, given israeli abandonment of morals, that israelis planted little nukes in american cities years ago

That sounds more than a little far fetched paranoid. I am no fan of Israel, but I think it’s in all our interests to keep this debate real.

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By wadosy, February 27, 2009 at 12:01 am Link to this comment

to Ed Harges, re: israeli nuke false flags on america…

seems likely, given israeli abandonment of morals, that israelis planted little nukes in american cities years ago, just waiting for a situation desperate enough to require a last-ditch effort to put america on a total war footing in defense of israel.

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By wadosy, February 26, 2009 at 11:54 pm Link to this comment

israel was founded in evil, by what must have been evil people.

seeing as how the evil has continued since israel’s founding, we have to conclude the present israeli leadership is evil… especially as prominent israelis are saying that israel must abandon even the pretense of morality while denying that israel’s founding premise is immoral.

how do you get evil people to become decent people? ...i dont know.


is there a magician powerful enough to heal israel’s moral leprosy? ...if there is no magic powerful enough to heal israel, what solution is there other than to let the evil run its course, and hope that decent jews are not caught up in the reprisals?


i have no business proposing solutions to israel’s problems, but do i have a right to diagnose and propose solutions to america’s problems, one problem being: israel’s domination of american politics and media.

if israel was paying its own way, fighting its own battles, and had no control over american politics and media, israel would not be a problem for americans…
.
.

now then, what if i were to say that america must abandon morality to defend itself from israel?

...but america is not allowed to defend itself from israel without incurring howls of antisemitism from israelis and the jewish racketeers who control the american political system and media.

so america is coerced into defending evil, and committing evil in its defense of israel… and it never occurs to anyone that, since we’re committing evil anyhow, we might as well be committing that evil while defending ourselves from israel.

there doesnt seem to be any moral solution to israel’s problems because israel was founded in evil, and the sad thing, from an american standpoint, is, america has been sucked into israel’s evil whirlwind.

many people have got this all figured out, and they figure the only solution is a personal one, which includes stacking up as much loot as possible before the shit hits the fan… then hiding out until the dust settles.

it’s just too bad that the israel racket had to happen now, as oil supplies and global warming are becoming obvious, because israel’s desperation is polarizing jews.


if israel persists in its immorality, judaism, jewishness and jews in general will be damaged, and damaged badly… and that’s the threat the jewish racketeers of the ADL use in their attempts to keep jews in line.

it’s just to damn bad the ADL is on the side of evil and immorality instead of the side of decency as it tries to herd everyone into the same corral.

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By Ed Harges, February 26, 2009 at 10:41 pm Link to this comment

re: By wadosy, February 26 at 10:09 pm:

Wadosy: I’ve been afraid of such a thing happening for years. I still think it’s a possibility to be taken seriously, especially with Netanyahu back in charge of the Holy State.

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By Sodium, February 26, 2009 at 10:01 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re:Night Gaunt,February 26 at 3:14pm.

Your comments are correct except that Israel cannot use its nukes against a neighboring country,like Syria for instant,due to the closeness of the vicinity,unless it chooses “The Samson Option”,which simply says “Oh Lord,on me and my enemy”,and Samson destroyed the Temple by his enormous strength.Perhaps,the old movie entitled “Samson and Dilylah”,starting by actor Victor Mature is wise to see it all over again.If not,then it will be even wiser to read the folling book:

“The Samson Option”
By
Symour Hersh,One of America’s finest journalist.

If you have not read it yet,I hope that you you will read it.You may find in your local library.

Although all of the forgoing is well known to the students of the Arab-Zionism conflict,there is one cause that have made the leadership of Israel nervous about Iran’s nuclear program is the possible “DE-POPULATION” of Israel once Iran succeeds in building the atomic bomb.All it takes religious fanatics,on both side,to start pushing the buttons of their respective nukes.It is only human to flee from the place of danger before it takes place….

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By Inherit The Wind, February 26, 2009 at 8:53 pm Link to this comment

wadosy, February 26 at 9:40 pm #

blah, blah, blah…..

do you remember that report by the US army SAMS about israel and false flag terrorism?
*******************************************

What I remember is that you cannot propose a solution and keep dodging, evading and down-right RUNNING AWAY from the question:

What should be done now, right now, to begin the process toward peace?  Not nattering, not blathering about how unjust the Israelis are, but a real, CONCRETE solution.

You just cannot answer that question, can you?  Because you OPPOSE a 2-State solution, and the alternatives are too bloody for everyone on every side.

So you blather and natter and evade the issue, and make snide remarks about “Zionists”:

WHAT IS TO BE DONE, HERE, NOW?

Do you dare answer?

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By jean gerard, February 26, 2009 at 7:55 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

We have to do more than pray that Obama gets his foreign policy decisions right and avoids more wars.

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By Shingo, February 26, 2009 at 6:29 pm Link to this comment

Howard,

Israel declared war on Gaza from the day they withdrew.  As per the 2005 agreement, they were suppsoed to allow the free flow of goods acorss broders and allow Palestine to function freely. As has bee dicuemented by the Israeli scholarly account fo the Gaza withdrawal, “Lords of the Land”, Israel failed to honour this agreement for a single day.

No government in the world could have governed under such conditions.  In any case, Israel admits that Hamas fired no rockets during the ceasefire and that they, not Hamas, broke the ceasefire.

Hams have said the charter is irrelvant.  In any case, the charter, aprt from being dubiously translatd, was never adopted byt eh politcla arms fo Hamas.

>> So Hamas is responsible for causing the election of the right winger, Bibi Netanyahu.

Netanyahu was elected in the 90’s and Hamas had nothing to do with his election o that occasion.  it’s simple rally.  Israel is becoming a right wing, facists state and a they elected a leader that represents that position.

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By wadosy, February 26, 2009 at 6:09 pm Link to this comment

i see the following post has disappeared from the thread:

chis hedges sez:

Netanyahu, whose arrogance is as outsized as his bellicosity, knows that for all his threats and chest thumping Israel is incapable of attacking Iranian targets alone. Israel cannot fly its attack aircraft over Iraqi air space into Iran without U.S. permission…

The only route to a war with Tehran for the Israeli military is through Washington.


well, not really…

Israeli defence sources claim the country has secretly carried out its first test launches from submarines of cruise missiles capable of carrying nuclear warheads.

Israel Makes Nuclear Waves With Submarine Missile Test from London Sunday Times June 18, 2000, via fas.

once the israelis attack iran, we’re off to the races, arent we…? ...judging from obama’s pledge of allegiance to israel at AIPAC.

...and who in their right mind is gonna believe israel and their media toadies about an iranian nuke weapons program after we were lied into iraq by the same people?

_________________________________________________

has anyone connected israel’s nuke cruise missile capability with the neocons’ need for a new “new pearl harbor”?

...if bibi thought 9/11 was very good, and the situation has since deteriorated to the point that some neocons are openly saying they need another 9/11, we have to assume that a couple nukes going off in america, blamed on iran, would be even better.

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By wadosy, February 26, 2009 at 5:40 pm Link to this comment

those horrendous rockets… rockets that made netanyahu king of israeli america again.

how amazing that the person benefiting from the rocket attacks and the subsequent bombing of the gaza concentration camp turns out to be the same guy who thought 9/11 was such a good deal.


israel has no intention of achieving any “solution” other than a solution strangely like a “final solution” you may have heard of before.

they’ve had 60 years to find a “solution”, and the only thing we’ve seen is more palestinian land grabbed, except for gaza, which will be flooded anyhow, by sea level rise caused by global warming.

...which accounts for israel’s apparently insatiable appetite for palestinians’ high ground in the west bank…

...and very probably accounts for israel’s decision to mount the 9-11/AEI/PNAC project, starting with sharon’s visit to al aqsa in september of 2000, just as PNAC was publishing their document that said they needed a “new pearl harbor”.

do you remember that report by the US army SAMS about israel and false flag terrorism?

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By cyrena, February 26, 2009 at 4:20 pm Link to this comment

By Night-Gaunt, February 26 at 3:14 pm #
First things;
Countries don’t have rights to exist or anything else only humans have rights. The country of Israel exists and the Palestinians want to exist as one too. Now with that out of the way the sides in this asymmetrical battle do not recognize each other in any way including as equals. To have diplomatic relations all sides must acknowledge each other as on the same level. Then we can move on to the other things needed. Without that all other items on the list for peaceful co-existance will not happen. It can’t.
Israel, especially the Zionsts who run it, have a plan. To continue to expand the as yet not defined boarders to one they have mutually agreed upon (in secret) as part of their long term project to restore the old boarders of ancient Israel. To do that they must remove those who are, to them, interlopers and squatters to their JHVH given land. [Rather like how their ancestors took over Canaan as God mandated them to. Oh they have nukes to back it up but they are playing coy with it.
*~*
Thank you Night-Gaunt,

For exposing these truths. The Zionists DO have a plan, and it dates back to the late 19th Century.

(the Chronology is coming up, as provided by the Israeli historical genius, Ilan Pappe.)


Meantime, States actually DO have rights, even if it’s just the Sovereignty issue. But as they have these ‘rights’ they have responsibilities to abide by the laws of the world community, or they lose them.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 26, 2009 at 3:55 pm Link to this comment

wadosy, February 26 at 2:18 pm #

  “How would YOU solve the problem?”

you’d think such talented, intelligent and moral people as israelis would be able to figure out their own solution to the problem.

are you saying that the zionists have painted themselves into such a pickle that they cant find a way out without committing genocide?

maybe they should have thought about that before they started the israel project…

...on the other hand, maybe they did think about it, and thought they could get away with abandoning whatever morals they may have possessed, maybe they thought they’d be able to get away with genocide and ethinic cleansing if they whined enough about the holocaust.

anyhow, we can always fall back on doc aumann’s nobel-calibre game theories, cant we?

nevermind the whining, the whimpering, the toothgnashing, or the pretentions to morality: all we gotta do is observe behavior, and on that score, israel and its founders are moral lepers.

**************************************************

COP OUT!  Just as I predicted you would.  You have no answers, do you?  Not one. Nothing. Nada. Rien. Gornischt.

Just heaps more abuse BUT NOT ONE PRACTICAL STEP TO TAKE!

Your attempt to take some high moral ground is gone and your hypocrisy shows.

WHERE ARE YOUR ANSWERS? WHERE?

I HAVE answers—I’ve posted them many times—a 2-State Solution.

You, OTOH, have nothing, but whining, complaints and insults.  Until you present a solid ENACTABLE plan for how YOU would solve the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, I’m not going to waste any more time on this.

See, my pal Tony Wicher thinks if Israel just opens its borders that everything will be flowers and roses—but he can’t figure out how to get Israel to do that (and they won’t).  As I said—a real, enactable plan.

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By Howard, February 26, 2009 at 2:52 pm Link to this comment

Netanyahu was elected because of the continued warfare and barrages of missles and rockets that Hamas lobbed onto and into Israel in a random manner.
For over 3 years and thousands of rockets.

Their are adament on causing the compelete destruction of Israel and its people.  Hamas cannot govern and will not negotiate. Israelis are not stupid or going to sit passively when attacked.  Those days are over.

So Hamas is responsible for causing the election of the right winger, Bibi Netanyahu.

More power to him.

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By wadosy, February 26, 2009 at 1:07 pm Link to this comment

it’s a mystery…

why would people deliberately put themselves in a position in which they have to become murderers and terrorists and liars in order to defend that position?

are you adrenaline junkies, or racial supremacists, or stupid, or… what?

it wouldnt be so bad, but you try to browbeat all jews into defending your indefensible position.

and it wouldnt be any of my business at all, except you’ve enlisted america in your defense of your indefensible position.

how can you “fight the good fight” in defense of a bad idea?

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By wadosy, February 26, 2009 at 12:57 pm Link to this comment

it’s just too bad that you are on such shaky ground…

you have a long history of false flags, you’ve lied and lied and lied, and you’ve never been able to explain why europeans had a right to move to palestine and terrorize people from their homes and land.

your version of reality can only be accepted if we take the standard neocon philosophy into account: “we’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality.”

i guess a corollary of that would be: “we can also create our own morality, a morality that justifies terrorizing hundreds of thousands of people from their homes and land.”

and now finally we find one honest israeli, dror, who has the temerity to tell the truth about israeli morality, a truth that’s been demonstrated for decades and now is trying to crawl out into the light.

maybe you’d like to take a stab at answering the big question: given the way israel and the defense of israel has corrupted israelis, is israel good for jews?

are jews exempt from moral behavior…? ...and if so, on what grounds are jews exempt from moral behavior?

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By Sepharad, February 26, 2009 at 11:59 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Inherit—Reading the posts, I can understand why the Israelis voted for Netanyahu. They’re angry at Hamas’ bad behavior rewarded by the international community again telling Israel to show more restraint but never asking Palestinians to become responsible for finding a leader who won’t involve them in collectively suicidal behavior. Israel can’t join the peace-and-love dance without a partner.

Shenonymous, on two research projects, requested chronological data leading up to the first Lebanon war, which I provided (in five parts) on the thread “When did we stop caring ...” Getting that together, saw the familiar pattern—drip-drip-drip terrorism leading to disrupted Palestinian life—first checkpoints, then the Wall. Between ‘67, when the Israelis captured the West Bank from Jordan, and ‘93, the beginning of the first intifada, Palestinians on the West Bank moved freely in and out of Israel, working, selling. Things were not so bad. Now, it’s terrible. All that killing got the Palestinians exactly nothing and cost them dearly. Had there had been no continual attacks prompting checkpoints and wall, if their children had received real education instead of madrasses and Mickey Mouse Islamist style cartoons, by now the Palestinians on the West Bank would have built a sufficient economic base with adequately educated children to set up a country of their own.

Now, we try to making an omelette from broken eggs. Much harder. Netanyahu opposes a second state for now, but at least he’s talking about building an economy in the West Bank. That’s a start.

One more point of light: Zionist Leon Botstein, President of Bard College, got the joint Bard-Al Quds joint degree program up and running, thankfully before the elections. (Unlike the other joint academic programs with American University, Botstein pushed hard for and got a joint DEGREE program—medical, technology, humanities—which means that Israel will recognize the Al Quds-Bard degrees because Bard is a US college.) Dr. Nussibieh, President of Al Quds, has been working with Botstein for a long time on this. Not having a recognized degree handicaps graduates; having one opens the world up for them. Dr. Nussibieh said that some of his students had never been more than 40 miles from Jerusalem. I hope this doesn’t paint a shoot-me-for-collaborating Hamas target on Nussibieh’s chest; Palestinians can’t afford to lose men like him.

Still, dark days for Israelis and Palestinians. It’s depressing reading all the safe, comfortable people here babbling about things they do not understand, criticizing a country under siege, writing about Israel’s founding “thugs.” But then there were also people in the 19th century who hated Native Americans for massacreing Spanish, Mexican and Americans as they fought to defend their longtime land. Native American tribes displaced one another in bitter fighting every now and again, but only drove them farther away, never sought to exterminate them. Obviously I see today’s Israelis as Native Americans. And the Arabs are, of course, the hordes of Hispanic and Anglo-Saxons who nearly extinguished the Native Americans. This will freak out some posters because if they think about it, it is an apt analogy—right down to the fact that the early Native Americans who came from over the landbridge overwhelmed an anciet race who’d lived here even longer, just as the ancient Hebrew warriors fought the Philistines and the Jebusites, Amalekites etc.

My current fight: the tendency to be rude and insulting. Am trying to learn from you and Shennonymous how to not only tolerate fools but also debate them point by point.

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By Robert, February 26, 2009 at 11:50 am Link to this comment

ZIO WEB ATTACKS ~~~ ARE YOU A ‘VICTIM’?

February 26, 2009 at 11:58 am

Do you write articles giving the truth about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict? Do you have a Blog known for its anti zionist viewpoints? Have you been getting extra ‘visitors’ to your Blog who leave negative comments or participate in polls?

If yes to any of the above, there is a good reason for all of this….it’s a project called Megaphone Israel. It is a new desktop tool that alerts its subscribers to any entries that might be anti Israel or anti zionist.

After notification, the ‘warriors’ jump into action and attack the source of the article. Are we to quiver in our seats because of this? Are we to stop posting because of this? I THINK NOT!

As long as Israel continues its existing genocidal policies and actions against the people of Palestine, Blogs such as this one will continue to expose their crimes. Where the media fails to, we will present the facts.

So Megaphone Israel should be kept busy for the next (hopefully) short while.

Do any of my readers have suggestions as to how we might also be alerted….. to racist or zionist postings on the Web? We too should be posting OUR comments on their sites, just to let them know we are aware of their ‘games’.

Thanks to Mary Rizzo for the alert on this situation…..


http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2009/02/26/zio-web-attacks-are-you-a-victim/

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By Night-Gaunt, February 26, 2009 at 11:14 am Link to this comment

First things;

Countries don’t have rights to exist or anything else only humans have rights. The country of Israel exists and the Palestinians want to exist as one too. Now with that out of the way the sides in this asymmetrical battle do not recognize each other in any way including as equals. To have diplomatic relations all sides must acknowledge each other as on the same level. Then we can move on to the other things needed. Without that all other items on the list for peaceful co-existance will not happen. It can’t.

Israel, especially the Zionsts who run it, have a plan. To continue to expand the as yet not defined boarders to one they have mutually agreed upon (in secret) as part of their long term project to restore the old boarders of ancient Israel. To do that they must remove those who are, to them, interlopers and squatters to their JHVH given land. [Rather like how their ancestors took over Canaan as God mandated them to. Oh they have nukes to back it up but they are playing coy with it. They let slip sly intimations they do but won’t say fully and clearly. Vanunu tried and paid for his attempt to have his country come clean on that issue.

Should any country around them gain one nuclear weapon Israel’s dominance of the region will falter since once you get it you have parity and it actually forestalls an attack!

The Zionists want a one nation solution, where Israel covers even more territory and is armed and belligerent as their Sugar Daddy, Christian USA! Now the Zionist Christians really want to convert the Jews and those Jews know it but are using the USA as long as they can fool them into believing they can be converted en mass. The conflict goes on both in war, subversion and covertly. Be mindful of it.

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By Ed Harges, February 26, 2009 at 10:36 am Link to this comment

re: By Inherit The Wind, February 25 at 11:58 pm:

What a stunning failure to miss the point. Obviously, France was picked at random for the analogy. The particular country I chose has nothing whatsoever with the point I was making.

But I understand, ITW. As someone who tries to embrace both Zionism and liberalism, you need to miss the point. Intellectual contortionism is a way of life for you. Your psychic survival depends on it.

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By wadosy, February 26, 2009 at 10:27 am Link to this comment

of course, you can afford to be a moral leper, as mr dror is advocating, if you got the biggest, meanest, most obedient bodyguard in the world.

too bad that bodyguard seems to be failing, too bad the bodyguard is in the midst of a cold civil war that could turn hot, too bad that the shambles that remain afterward wont be able to afford israel any more.

so i guess israel will just have to go down with the ship, unless you can con india into replacing america as your protector.

israel was a bad idea, and it’s too bad that so many jews have been morally crippled by their defense of israel…

...which leads us back to the big question: “is israel good for the jews?”

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By wadosy, February 26, 2009 at 10:18 am Link to this comment

“How would YOU solve the problem?”

you’d think such talented, intelligent and moral people as israelis would be able to figure out their own solution to the problem.

are you saying that the zionists have painted themselves into such a pickle that they cant find a way out without committing genocide?

maybe they should have thought about that before they started the israel project…

...on the other hand, maybe they did think about it, and thought they could get away with abandoning whatever morals they may have possessed, maybe they thought they’d be able to get away with genocide and ethinic cleansing if they whined enough about the holocaust.

anyhow, we can always fall back on doc aumann’s nobel-calibre game theories, cant we?

nevermind the whining, the whimpering, the toothgnashing, or the pretentions to morality: all we gotta do is observe behavior, and on that score, israel and its founders are moral lepers.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 26, 2009 at 10:02 am Link to this comment

wadosy, February 26 at 10:04 am #

all you have to do to cure all your conflicts is embrace dror’s solution: admit that you’ve abandoned your morality, and continue with your ethnic cleanising.

no problem.


dont fret over the fact that your protector’s in deep trouble, that cultures and religions and civilizations have come and gone, and the best hope for a civilizations’ survival lies in living within its means and living peaceably with its neighbors.

simple
************************************************

OK, Mr. Morals: How would YOU solve the problem—and keep your moralality?

I’m not talking about recognizing “your inner psychopath” or any other BS babble.  I mean real, concrete steps to take to solve the situation NOW.  I’ve suggested a few for you:

1) Declare War on Israel.
2) Impose a total blockade and embargo on Israel.
3) Negotiate a 2-state solution.

Now take each of these and follow them to their logical conclusion and see where it leads you.  If it leads you to a total slaughter of the Jews in Israel then xxxBUZZZZxxxx, you lose—you have no claim to morality.

So go ahead, give me the concrete steps to a solution that doesn’t force you to accept the “immorality” of Israel being on stolen land as a fait accompli.

Don’t give me crap about how it means I’ve accepted something or other—give me a hard, real solution that Barack Obama or Ban-ki Moon can start implementing NOW, TODAY and follow it’s logical path.

Bet you can’t. Bet you fall back on telling me I’ve got to “admit” I’m immoral or some other such BS. 

Actually, I think your just trying to work up some sort justification for a war in which every Jew in Israel is slaughtered and cannot admit it to yourself, so you gotta make them out to be SO evil that their genocide is necessary for “world peace”.  Go ahead and deny it.

Real steps, Real solutions.  Go ahead.  I challenge you to do this without leading to genocide justification.

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By prosefights, February 26, 2009 at 7:01 am Link to this comment

“In recent days, four key developments have clicked in to edge Iran and Israel much closer to a military denouement with profound consequences for American oil that the nation is not prepared to meet.
What has happened? ...

First, Iran has proven it can successfully launch a satellite into outer space as it did on February 2. Teheran claimed, to the incredulity of Western governments, that the satellite was to monitor earthquakes and enhance communications. ...

Second, the International Atomic Energy Agency last week admitted that it had underestimated Iran’s nuclear stockpile by about one-third. ...

Third, Iran has ramped up its enrichment program with thousands of new homegrown, highly advanced centrifuges. ...

Fourth, Binyamin Netanyahu has just become prime minister of Israel. He is determined to take action before - not after - Iran achieves its nuclear potential. ...”

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1235410719930&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

WWIII?

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By wadosy, February 26, 2009 at 6:30 am Link to this comment

of course, i was speaking about your psychological conflicts in the post below.

...and to get rid of all that worrisome residual morality—which seems to be weighing so heavily on your little shoulders—you will have to face up to the fact that israel’s founders had already abandoned their morality when they founded israel in lies, terror and massive injustice—lies, terror and injustice that continue to this day.

so your handwringing is obsolete, and has been since the first polish terrorist poisoned the first well in palestine.

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By wadosy, February 26, 2009 at 6:04 am Link to this comment

all you have to do to cure all your conflicts is embrace dror’s solution: admit that you’ve abandoned your morality, and continue with your ethnic cleanising.

no problem.


dont fret over the fact that your protector’s in deep trouble, that cultures and religions and civilizations have come and gone, and the best hope for a civilizations’ survival lies in living within its means and living peaceably with its neighbors.

simple

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By Inherit The Wind, February 26, 2009 at 5:38 am Link to this comment

wadosy, February 26 at 2:20 am #

Inherit The Wind says,

  “are you posting from land stolen from murdered Native Americans?  If you are in North, Central or South America, you sure are. Doesn’t that make YOU a “nasty murderous thieving tribalistic dishonest thug” too?”

yup.

since europeans murdered and terrorized native americans from their homes and land, it’s okay for europeans to terrorize palestinians from their homes and land.

two wrongs make a right, and so does might make right.
***************************************************

No, I’m asking that you face your own hypocrisy.

The land Israel is on was granted to it by the United Nations, not by military conquest.

But your REAL problem is you don’t want to face the fait accompli that Israel exists.  The alternative is that Israel NOT exist.

How do you propose to bring it about? 

Get NATO to drive them into the sea?
Yeah—gonna support a war that makes Afghanistan seem like a cake-walk, are you?

Starve them out? 
How’s that working on Castro in Cuba? Even that criminal imbecile, Robert Mugabe is STILL in power and will, at the opportune moment, murder Morgan Tsangerai(scuse the spelling) despite YEARS of embargo and a people who hate him.  How well did it work on Saddam Hussein’s regime, another hated regime?  So….How well do you think it’s going to work on a nation with a democratic elected government who LOVE their nation?

Convince them to open their doors to any Palestinian who CLAIMS he was evicted from Israel (even if he’s under 61 years of age)?
How are you going to convince Israel to commit suicide? Didn’t you SEE what they did to the actual real capital assets Israel abandoned in Gaza?  They TRASHED them! Only Tony Wicher believes that “somehow” if all the Palestinians who want to come into Israel do, that there will be a peaceful, loving democracy…“And the lion will lie down with the lamb.”  Everyone who believes that do 3 back flips!

Or you can admit what you REALLY want: Every Jew in Israel forced out or killed on the premise that if Israel is gone, there will be peace in the Middle East.

There hasn’t been peace there in 5,000 years.  Israel is just today’s excuse.

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By wadosy, February 25, 2009 at 10:51 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Whirlwind, you know about this, dont you?

mr dror is the founder of JPPPI and thinks jews should abandon moral behavior.

dennis ross is chairman of the board of JPPPI and he’s just been appointed special US envoy to the Middle East.

so, seeing as how you’ve conformed to dror’s call to abandon morality, you must approve of dennis ross’ appointment…
.

think of all the good ross’ appointment will do in negotiations with, for instance, iran, hamas and hezbollah… seeing as how we’ve appointed an envoy who has abandoned moral behavior.

tikkun olam at its finest.

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By wadosy, February 25, 2009 at 10:20 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind says,

“are you posting from land stolen from murdered Native Americans?  If you are in North, Central or South America, you sure are. Doesn’t that make YOU a “nasty murderous thieving tribalistic dishonest thug” too?”

yup.

since europeans murdered and terrorized native americans from their homes and land, it’s okay for europeans to terrorize palestinians from their homes and land.

two wrongs make a right, and so does might make right.


i see you’re responding appropriately to dror’s call to abandon jewish pretenses at morality.

very good.

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By WriterOnTheStorm, February 25, 2009 at 9:16 pm Link to this comment

Congratulations Ed Harges. You got ITW to admit that Israel is engaged in a colonial enterprise. To wit:

“BTW, are you posting from land stolen from murdered Native Americans?  If you are in North, Central or South America, you sure are. Doesn’t that make YOU a “nasty murderous thieving tribalistic dishonest thug” too?”

Well done! A watershed moment on Truthdig.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 25, 2009 at 7:58 pm Link to this comment

Harges:

If you knew what the hell you were talking about you’d KNOW that in 1800, the US and France were just settling an undeclared sea war with each other that had gone on for several years. That’s right: We were at war with France like every war AFTER WWII—undeclared.

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By Shingo, February 25, 2009 at 6:34 pm Link to this comment

prosefights,

It helps to understand what you are reading.
There is no evidence whatsoever that Iran is trying to produce a nuclear weapon. None.  Zero!

Yes, they have been spinning their centrifuges all year.  That’s what you do when you have high speed centrifuges, you keep them spinning.  Starting up a centrifuge cascade is very difficult and risky and once you have stability maintained, you want to keep it there. Also, Iran happens to be a signatory to of the NPT which gives them the right to enrich uranium for civilian purposes.

>> The charge infuriates Dr. Etemad.

Let’s also be reminded that at the time of he Shah, Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowotz and Donald Rumsfeld all thought ti was a grand idea for Iran to have a nuclear power program.

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By prosefights, February 25, 2009 at 5:57 pm Link to this comment

What is the benefit to Iran to have nuclear weapons?

“[S]o far I have only described what is already obviously going on. Add to this the likelihood that Iran is closer to achieving membership in the atomic weapon club. They’ve been spinning their centrifuges all year and nobody has done anything about it. My guess is that neither the US nor Israel will attempt to take out their facilities in the year ahead. If Iran used a nuclear device against Israel, or anybody else, they would be asking to become, in turn, the world’s largest ashtray. ...

James Howard Kunstler”

Nuclear-generated electricity, yes.

Wednesday August 6, 2008 07:19

The charge infuriates Dr. Etemad. “With the Shah, we also came to the conclusion that Iran was in great need of nuclear energy because our population was steadily growing and our gas and oil will run out. That’s why even though I was in the old regime, I should be fair to the new regime because they are following the same line.



Friday September 5, 2008 07:56
Wed, 03 Sep 2008 22:32:58 GMT Currently suffering from electricity shortage, Iran has been forced to adopt a rationing program by scheduling power outages - of up to two hours a day - across both urban and rural areas in the country.


regards

http://www.prosefights.org/nmlegal/theinvestigation/theinvestigation.htm#reedemail

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By AFriend, February 25, 2009 at 4:26 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Shingo,

Honesty moves people and can get a great deal done. Dishonesty is never the way.

I am 100% certain you have not read the reports in question.

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By Ed Harges, February 25, 2009 at 3:52 pm Link to this comment

ITW writes:

“Or does “situational ethics” apply to give you a “get-out-of-jail-free” card?

ITW, you have no conception of a valid analogy. If, circa 1800, I had been a citizen of France, and my government had insisted on following a foreign policy of self-destructive self-subordination to the interests and dictates of the United States, based on a religious/moral dogma holding the United states to be a uniquely moral settler-nation, so that France must act to guarantee the success of that settlement project, including the dispossession or annihilation of the native population, at unlimited cost in blood and treasure, incurring for France world-wide condemnation and hatred, you can be sure as hell that I would have been one irate Frenchman demanding the cessation of all French support for the United States.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 25, 2009 at 3:31 pm Link to this comment

Ed Harges, February 25 at 6:13 pm #

Inherit the Wind and other self-deluded pro-Israel liberals who post here love to pretend that the vile Netanyahu is some kind of aberration, an unworthy successor to the nice liberal Zionists who created Israel as a Jewish state.

Baloney. Zionists were nasty murderous thieving tribalistic dishonest thugs from the start.
************************************************

Yeah. Too bad ol’ Adolf and the Grand Mufti didn’t get rid of all of us evil satanic verminous Jews when they had the chance.  They only got the job half-done, right?  Had they succeeded the world would be at peace, right?

BTW, are you posting from land stolen from murdered Native Americans?  If you are in North, Central or South America, you sure are. Doesn’t that make YOU a “nasty murderous thieving tribalistic dishonest thug” too?

Or does “situational ethics” apply to give you a “get-out-of-jail-free” card?

I really cannot stand hypocrites, but smug, look-down-your-nose hypocrites are the worst.

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By donnella whitacre, February 25, 2009 at 3:19 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

wow. is this the same chris hedges who was caught lying about the IDF using palestinian children for target practice.
he is so reliable and so unbiased.
it isn’t israel that is being aggressive. every day ole pres joe of iran talks about droping a nuke on israel.
if their nuclear plants are for peace only why are they testing missiles and putting a satilite into orbit?
if you mean netyanhau is bent on protecting israel and is aggressive on that acccout then so be it.
they want more land? it that why they gave egypt the sinai for peace.
why they have offered to give the golan back if syria will promise not to bomb israel from it(which they won’t) or why they pulled out of the gaza and gave it to those terrorists who are now bombing israel from it?
sure they are the aggressors. i can see were you guys get that idea.
ariel sharon told bush in no uncertain terms not to invade iraq.
so stop blaming israel for defending it’s self from the surrounding arab states which have invaded five times and lost i might and and will lose again.
if they weren’t hearing the old “we will drive you into the sea or nuke you tomorrow ” they wouldnt’ have to defend themselves.

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By Ed Harges, February 25, 2009 at 2:13 pm Link to this comment

Inherit the Wind and other self-deluded pro-Israel liberals who post here love to pretend that the vile Netanyahu is some kind of aberration, an unworthy successor to the nice liberal Zionists who created Israel as a Jewish state.

Baloney. Zionists were nasty murderous thieving tribalistic dishonest thugs from the start.

For example, Israel from its inception was bent on territorial expansion through massive violence against its neighbors. Here’s what one of Israel’s hallowed Founding Fathers,  David Ben Gurion, wrote in 1948:

“The Achilles’ heel of the Arab coalition is Lebanon. Muslim supremacy in this country is artificial and can easily be overthrown. A Christian State ought to be set up there, with its southern frontier on the river Litani. We should sign a treaty of alliance with this State. Then, when we have broken the strength of the Arab Legion and bombed Amman, we could wipe out Transjordan; after that Syria would fall. And if Egypt dared to make war on us, we would bomb Port Said, Alexandria and Cairo. We should thus end the war, and would have settled the account with Egypt, Assyria and Chaldea on behalf of our ancestors.”

from Michael Ben-Zohar’s biography of Ben Gurion (Delacorte, New York, NY 1978)

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By Shingo, February 25, 2009 at 1:08 pm Link to this comment

AFriend,

>> Clearly you have never read the various IAEA reports nor the last few NIE’s. You simply do not have the facts.

I have read the reports and I happen to be a nuclear engineer.  You sure you want to go there?

> Why would you make the claims you wrote of after I’ve already indicated that I have, in fact, read these reports? It seems odd to me.

If you read them, you clearly don’t understand them.

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By Night-Gaunt, February 25, 2009 at 12:44 pm Link to this comment

It is jarring to see when someone like Chris Hedges actually reports the facts and not the scare mongering propaganda that passes for news reporting in the USA. Obama is just Bush spelled differently it seems concerning geopolitical matters of the proto-empire that is the USA.

Iran is portrayed as a ‘rogue nation’ and ‘belligerent’ even though it hasn’t been aggressive to any other nation for 280 years. [Iraq attacked Iran in 1980 because of the blow-back from the US installed Shaw’s gov’t being overthrown. Saddam was afraid of the fanatics and instigated war. The US courted him and supported him till 1990 then turned on him.] Rather like how Hugo Chavez is continually demonized in our corporate press while dictators friendly to the USA are soft balled all the time like Mubarik of Egypt (after Israel, second largest for $$$ from USA, with Columbia being third) and up until recently Perfez Musharrif of Pakistan. In real politik morality and consistency take a back seat to what you want and getting it at any cost. A psychopath’s way. Pres. Obama is sticking slavishly to that dictat. Not so much change, eh?

As I have said before, until all sides treat each other as equals nothing will be done to end the violence and subjugation. Nothing else can happen without it. The Zionists of Israel and USA (Dominionists who want a militant theocracy here) and Britain want the Jews to have their Greater Israel then convert them all to Messianic Judaism or Christian Jews, every jot and tittle of them. (That is a form of genocide when you eliminate a people’s religion or language—killing their ‘ethnic’ part of themselves.)

Ironically militarists like Netenyahu can destroy their country by being adherents to the sword over diplomacy and working to be meek and friendly making friends not enemies. “Appear like doves but be as devious as serpents.” Water puts out fire not more fire. Fighting fire with fire ends the conflict with all structures carbonized!

But then wasn’t one of Jesus’ more controversial declarations was to bring not peace but a sword? Definitely not Gandhi or MLKjr! One can be strong without being a bully or a mass murderer. Hamas is doing the wrong thing by allowing those pathetic but dangerous (when they work) rockets to rain down in populated areas (legal or not) killing and maiming those not at war, not soldiers. It doesn’t matter who started it it must stop. That too must be done. Unfortunately too many groups want things that do not include life and liberty of Palestinians. A shame and a sham.

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By Robert, February 25, 2009 at 10:26 am Link to this comment

Israel’s Secret Weapon (Secret Nuclear Weapons) - 44:45 - Nov 12, 2006


“Mordechai Vanunu, Israel’s nuclear whistleblower, was jailed in 1986 for publishing photographs of Israel’s nuclear bomb factory at Dimona. ...all » Mordechai Vanunu, Israel’s nuclear whistleblower, was jailed in 1986 for publishing photographs of Israel’s nuclear bomb factory at Dimona. Olenka Frenkiel reveals the extent of Israel’s nuclear gagging. The Sunday Times Revelations hit the press in October 1986.”

*******************

Watch this BBC Documentary on Israel’s WMD stockpiles. This Documentary was aired on LINK TV & all the other AIPAC controlled MSM News corporations refused to air it.

Watch before your eyes what was the Israeli military transport plane transporting when it crashed in the Netherlands. Why was it kept a secret & the news blackout for so many years?

Have a chance to watch Shimon Peres when questioned about the Israel’s Nuclear stockpiles. 

Click on link to watch what can’t be seen on CNN, Fox…etc…:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-234685330662058240&q=israel+secret+weapon&total=107&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

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By prosefights, February 25, 2009 at 8:43 am Link to this comment

The US legal system is not working properly

“[T]he genocide criminal complaint affidavit against Zbigniew Brzezinski was filed June 6, 2007. Air Force lawyer Lt. Col. Tishlyn Taylor’s letter is dated 11 Sep 07 which may indicate that Feehan and Taylor attempted to cover-up a crime.

Since this matter now involved felony theft from our $22,036.00 retirement-protected savings accounts by Sandia Laboratory Federal Credit Union CEO Christopher Jillson and felony genocide criminal complaint affidavit, we would like to explore the mechanics of filing formal charges against Cols Feehan and Taylor and General Grabeski with the Air Force. ...”

http://www.prosefights.org/nmlegal/theinvestigation/theinvestigation.htm#reedemail

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By bilejones, February 25, 2009 at 6:22 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The Vomiting of the state of Israel onto the Palestinian people was one of the most cynical acts of the last century. Why should the Palestinians be destroyed because of what the Germans did to other Europeans?

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By AFriend, February 25, 2009 at 5:39 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Shingo,

Clearly you have never read the various IAEA reports nor the last few NIE’s. You simply do not have the facts.

Why would you make the claims you wrote of after I’ve already indicated that I have, in fact, read these reports? It seems odd to me.

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By Shingo, February 25, 2009 at 5:16 am Link to this comment

Howard,

>>I could have sworn Iran on many many occasions has threatened in a most serious manner to eradicate and destroy Israel.  Not just rhetoric at all.

You can wear all you like.  Didn’t happen. Amadinehjad never threatened to eradicate Israel.  His speech was falsely translated.

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By Shingo, February 25, 2009 at 5:13 am Link to this comment

AFriend,

It is you that has their facts inside out. 

The IAEA, and the NIE state catergorically that there is no evidence of a nuclear weapons program.  In fact, the IAEA has stated that it is 100% certain that no nuclear fisile material hs been diverted to any weapons related programs.

Finally, the NIE caveat that Iran did have such a program before 2003 is suspect as it is based on information from a stolen laptop that the CIA believes came from dubious sources.

Th source, it turns out, it the political wing of the MEK (that is determined to overthrow the Iranian leadership), listed by the State Department as a terrorist organisation.

Please, I beg you, do a better job in your research. You do everyone a disservice relying so heavily on your media sources. Take the time to ACTUALLY READ what the intelligence services are reporting!

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By Shingo, February 25, 2009 at 5:06 am Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind,

Don’t despair.  I think you are largely misunderstood.

Yes, the Amnesty International report is clear.  Hamas did perpetrate war crimes, as well as Israel.  Amnesty are also calling on a weapons embargo on Israel.

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By marta kaye, February 25, 2009 at 5:01 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Israel is obessed with the want of land, from Syria and especially Iran, the United States, and Britain, the oil under the land in all the Middle East. Both seem to care Less for the Human Lives that are taking away, especially children. All For Power and Greed.

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By Robert, February 24, 2009 at 10:25 pm Link to this comment

AMNESTY’S SCANDALOUS OBLIQUITY

February 24, 2009 at 6:40 am


“Palestinians incinerated to death by Israel’s White Phosphorous bombs

In an apparent effort to sound “balanced” and “unbiased,” the London-based human rights group, Amnesty International (AI) , has urged the international community to halt arms sales to the Israeli apartheid regime and the Palestinian Islamic liberation movement, Hamas.

A report issued by the group on Sunday, 22 February, pointed out that arms supplied to “the two sides” were used in attacks on civilians and civilian objects” which constituted war crimes.


Non the less, a careful examination of the report shows a clear propensity on the part of AI to create a false symmetry between Hamas, a small liberation movement resisting a decades-old Nazi-like foreign military occupation, and Israel, a manifestly criminal state armed to the teeth, which has been committing every conceivable crime under the sun for the purpose of maintaining its colonialist occupation and brutal domination over the Palestinian people.”

(Horrific War Crimes photos—Israel’s white phosphorous bombs)

http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2009/02/24/amnestys-scandalous-obliquity/

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By Robert, February 24, 2009 at 9:41 pm Link to this comment

A Message to Israel:

Time to Stop Playing the Victim Role

By Philip Slater

February 23, 2009 “Huffington Post”—Jan. 09, 2009—I can understand that after centuries of persecution it’s satisfying for a Jewish state to be the aggressor for a change, but there’s a codicil that goes with that role. You don’t get to act like a victim any more. “Poor little Israel” just sounds silly when you’re the dominant power in the Middle East. When you’ve invaded several of your neighbors, bombed and defeated them in combat, occupied their land, and taken their homes away from them, it’s time to stop acting oppressed. Yes, Arab states deny your right to exist, threaten to drive you into the sea, and all the rest of their futile, helpless rhetoric. The fact is, you have the upper hand and they don’t. You have sophisticated arms and they don’t. You have nuclear weapons and they don’t. So stop pretending to be pathetic. It doesn’t play well in Peoria.

(Yes, I know, we Americans should talk—always trembling in our boots about terrorists and ‘rogue states’ and ‘evil empires’ when we have enough nukes to blow up entire continents, and spend more on arms in an hour than most of the world’s nations spend in a year. But just because we’re hypocrites and Nervous Nellies doesn’t mean you have to be).

Calling Hamas the ‘aggressor’ is undignified. The Gaza strip is little more than a large Israeli concentration camp, in which Palestinians are attacked at will, starved of food, fuel, energy—even deprived of hospital supplies. They cannot come and go freely, and have to build tunnels to smuggle in the necessities of life. It would be difficult to have any respect for them if they didn’t fire a few rockets back.

The Israel lobby has a hissy fit when anyone points out that Israel has been borrowing liberally from the Nazi playbook, but to punish a whole nation for the attacks of a few—which Israel has been doing consistently in Gaza—is a violation of international law—a law enacted in response to the Nazi practice. And please, spare us the hypocrisy—borrowed, I’m ashamed to admit, from my own government—of saying ‘every effort is made to avoid civilian casualties’. When you drop bombs on a crowded city you’re bombing civilians. Bombs don’t ask for ID cards. Bombs are civilian killers. That’s what they do. They’re designed to break the spirit of a nation by slaughtering families. They were used all through World War II by all sides for that very purpose. And that’s what they’re intended for in Gaza.

And please, Israel, try to restrain yourself from using that ridiculous argument, borrowed again from Bush (how low can you get?), that Hamas leaders “hide among civilians”, by living in their own homes. Apparently, in the thinking of Israelis, they should all run out into an uninhabited area somewhere (try to find one in Gaza), surround themselves with flares and write in the sand with a stick, “Here I am!”

Yesterday you shelled three UN-run schools, killing several dozen children and adults, despite the fact that the UN had given you the precise coordinates of all its schools in Gaza. So much for ‘taking every care to avoid civilian casualties’. You seem to feel you can kill whomever you like, whenever you like, and wherever you like, just because you have a blank check from the United States. Every day this assault goes on you’re demonstrating contempt for the UN, the international community, and human life. Talk about a rogue state.”

http://informationclearinghouse.info/article22081.htm

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By Inherit The Wind, February 24, 2009 at 8:27 pm Link to this comment

I like the quote of Amnesty International.  Today, AI castigated BOTH Israel AND HAMAS for the actions they have taken.

Yup, those angels of Hamas have been cited for violations by Amnesty International.  How is that possible?  (crickets chirping)

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By WriterOnTheStorm, February 24, 2009 at 3:51 pm Link to this comment

ITW writes:

“I advocate a 2 state solution and FULL rights for all Israelis, whether Jew, Moslem, Christian, Agnostic or Atheist.”

I’m just curious why 2 states are needed if everyone has FULL rights.

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By KDelphi, February 24, 2009 at 3:16 pm Link to this comment

Here is a petition to ask Clinton to investigate Israel’s use of white phorphorus on civilians, as well as info about some kids who were burned. Dont read it if nothing can change your mind.

http://takeaction.amnestyusa.org/siteapps/advocacy/index.aspx?c=jhKPIXPCIoE&b=2590179&template=x.ascx&action=11787&tr=y&auid=4542037
 

Investigate misuse of US weapons in Gaza and stop arms transfers to Israel

Amnesty International researchers came across many US made white phosphorus artillery carrier shells, and fragments of other US produced weapons, throughout Gaza. We consider the repeated use of white phosphorus in densely-populated civilian areas a form of indiscriminate attack, and amounts to a war crime. Since 2001, the USA has been by far the major supplier of conventional arms to Israel, including government to government as well as private commercial sales. In addition to this trade, the USA has provided large funding each year for Israel to procure arms despite US legislation that restricts such aid to consistently gross human rights violators. Call for a US government investigation into Israel’s potential misuse of US made weapons in Gaza.

There follows, a letter to SOS Clinton…Thanks!

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By diamond, February 24, 2009 at 3:12 pm Link to this comment

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black (speare)! Your post is such an example of deceit and spin it’s almost a classic of its genre. ‘The Saudi plan is a ruse designed to hem in Israel between two Arab countries, Gaza and the West Bank’. And who created these countries? Israel, of course. By arranging for Fatah to carry out a coup against the elected government, namely Hamas, which was a disastrous failure and led to Fatah being bundled out of Gaza. Israel probably hoped for a prolonged civil war in which as many Palestinians as possible would die. They’re probably still hoping for it and planning for it at this very moment. And as for this ‘ruse’: what you’re describing is exactly what Israel thought and still thinks is fine for the Palestinians, since it’s a perennial in every failed peace deal, namely for them to live in bantustands, hemmed in on all sides by Israeli settlers, and because the Palestinians won’t actually have or be a state they will have no legal recourse if they defend themselves militarily against the settlers’ aggression so they will have the same choice they’ve always had - to be just another group of impoverished fringe dwellers on what used to be their land with no rights and no dignity whatsoever or to be ‘terrorists’ meaning in this case people who defend themselves by using the only weapons they have. The striking thing about your view of the situation is how you have tunnel vision and can only view any fact or any development on how it advantages or disadvantages Israel. Everyone else is just collateral damage. This is the real meaning of the attack on Gaza: Israel views the Palestinians as sub-human and completely expendable. All their chatter about Iran is just a diversion. They have to have enemies, everywhere and at all times to justify their police state and their appalling treatment of the Palestinians, the Lebanese, Arabs who live in Israel and anyone else who gets in their way. Iran will not attack Israel but Israel will attack Iran in a heartbeat and cry ‘self-defence your honour’ as they always do. Of course if Iran is nuclear armed they won’t be able to because a nuclear war is (still) a bridge too far for them at the moment. That’s what all of this media babble is really about. The only fact that matters is that Israel is on a course to self-destruction and the world has to be careful that Israel doesn’t take us all with it. Attacking Iran would be the first step in that process.

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By geronimo, February 24, 2009 at 2:53 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Public Support For Israel Is Waning

“Why?”

“Fear of an impending doom.”

“Based on?”

“Israel getting us into a war with Iran.”

“Otherwise?”

“Peace on earth and goodwill to all living beings.”

“Made possible by?”

“Yes we can.”

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By wadosy, February 24, 2009 at 2:42 pm Link to this comment

it always boils down to the same old thing: what right did europeans have to move to palestine and terrorize hundreds of thousands of people from their homes and land?

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By wadosy, February 24, 2009 at 2:40 pm Link to this comment

arent we talking about israel?

isnt israel violating the human rights of palestinians?

wasnt israel founded by terrorizing and murdering palestinians?

isnt netanyahu the heir apparent to the israeli founding philosophy?

how can you condemn netanyahu without condemning israel’s founders?

you cant.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 24, 2009 at 2:32 pm Link to this comment

wadosy, February 24 at 11:10 am #

i didnt ask you about the founders of america, did i?

if you “utterly detest” netanyahu, and netanyahu is continuing the policies of israel’s founders, you logically have to detest israel’s founders, dont you?

and once again we see a defender of israel trot out the “two wrongs make a right” defense of israel… this in addition to the previous “might makes right” argument.


“the light unto nations”, tikkun olam, and “benevolent global hegemony”—actions speak louder than those fancy words, dont they?

and the hypocrisy of israel and its defenders is blindingly obvious.
************************************************

I guess you have a problem understanding the difference between context and principles.

If you change the context and the result or conclusion changes, THEN THE CONCLUSION IS INVALID!

This is both a principle in Law and Logic.  For example: If an unmarried man and woman engage in an “unnatural” act and the Law does not prohibit it, then if two men engage in the same “unnatural act” it cannot be a crime. 

So if you cannot model the situation in another context and get the same result, it’s not valid.

You are attempting to make a moral argument based solely on the context conditions and refusing to recognize that a similar situation GIVES A DIFFERENT RESULT!

That’s why your whining “I didn’t ask about the founders of America” isn’t a valid objection. You are not a prosecutor interrogating a witness—you don’t get to demand the right to frame the question solely how you want to.

Don’t like it? Lump it! I’ve said it before and YOU didn’t address it: Your premise is invalid therefore your conclusion is invalid.

On a more general note: Didn’t I say that you, FolkTruther and Harges would lace into me with every kind of insult you could?

Predictable as a Rush Limbaugh rant.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 24, 2009 at 2:24 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther, February 24 at 12:02 pm #

No need to get your knickers in a wad, Inherit, I am not talking about any thoughts in your mind, should any be there.  Nor am I talking about all Zionists hating Palestinians.  I am talking about you, personally, being bigoted against Palestinians and using Aipac arguments to disguise and obfuscate the fact.
******************************************************

This is in fact a lie, you know it is a lie, and I demand that you retract it and stop repeating.

Tell me, Folktruther: When did you stop beating your wife?

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By wadosy, February 24, 2009 at 2:04 pm Link to this comment

Ed Harges says,

“...Zionism’s inherent ethnic supremacism is its only essential component…”

the sad thing about israel is this:

it makes sense from a racial supremacist viewpoint…

the logic is real simple: israel cannot violate palestinians’ human rights, because palestinians are not quite human, and thus have no human rights.


...then there’s the JPPPI/dror approach: abandon all pretense at morality, and be done with it.

At least the JPPPI is consistent with other Organizations That Claim To Speak On Behalf Of The Jews. It’s currently enjoying Stage Two of Jewish organizational process:

Stage One: Establish an organization that claims to represent “the Jewish People.”

Stage Two: Espouse ideology that the vast majority of Jews would consider to be out-of-touch or morally execrable.

Stage Three: Lament, in limitless policy papers, the fact that so few Jews choose to “affiliate” with the organized community.

Stage Four: Go to Stage One.

Spokesman For “The Jewish People” Calls For An End To Jewish Morality

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By Ed Harges, February 24, 2009 at 1:31 pm Link to this comment

re: By wadosy, February 24 at 10:18 am:

Wadosy: ITW will never understand that the vision cherished by many left-liberal Jews of Israel as an enlightened, egalitarian, yet guaranteed-eternally-Jewish ethno-democracy (with an exclusive right to wage “preventive” wars in a quest for military superiority over everyone else in perpetuity) are a philosophical mythical animal, an impossible creature, like a unicorn or a centaur.

Since this creature never did and never could exist, it follows as the night the day that Israel had to become - or reveal itself by stages to be already- something else.

And since Zionism’s inherent ethnic supremacism is its only essential component, the other, prettier features of this mythical creature are stripped away, like Salome’s veils, and Israel inevitably becomes a more and more explicitly fascist, violent, hateful, paranoid, militarist, expansionist, racist state.

ITW: face reality. Israel is simply continuing to clarify itself.

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By Folktruther, February 24, 2009 at 1:02 pm Link to this comment

No need to get your knickers in a wad, Inherit, I am not talking about any thoughts in your mind, should any be there.  Nor am I talking about all Zionists hating Palestinians.  I am talking about you, personally, being bigoted against Palestinians and using Aipac arguments to disguise and obfuscate the fact.

When Israel was slaughtering Palestians in Gaza, you did not justify it, true, but in the middle of the war you argued that everyone should think about something else, the wars elsewhere, to divert attention from Israel.  You talked contemptuously about sympathy for the “poor, poor Palestinians.”

This is common among Zionists.  As Dostoievsky has the father of the BROTHER KARAMUSOVS say about an old acquantance:

    “I once did him a bad turn and I’ve hated him ever since.”

Apparently you are not conscuous of the contempt in your comments about Palestinians.  That is why you are morally still a cut above Howard and Sehpharad, the former being murderous and the latter cynical.  You appear to be honestly trying to work something out historically.  But when you can’t, you will mostly likely descend to their level.

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By Crimes of the State Blog, February 24, 2009 at 12:51 pm Link to this comment

One country in the Middle East has secretly created nuclear weapons, weapons of mass destruction.  This country regularly threatens its neighbors, bombs them, invades them, commits genocidal atrocities and flips the middle finger to international law, the Geneva Conventions and basic human rights.  This terrorist state is quite dangerous, ruthless, and is continually threatening to start World War 3.

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By wadosy, February 24, 2009 at 12:23 pm Link to this comment

so, when we ask ourselves the real question—“is israel good for the jews?”—we can use you as just one more example of how israel has corrupted israelis and defenders of israel.

it takes courage to go against the zionist machinery, and you’re unable to muster that courage.

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By slinkymom, February 24, 2009 at 12:20 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

It should be apparent to any thoughtful person on either side of the equation that, firstly, we cannot afford to polarize to immutable sides when considering such important issues and secondly, that there will never be a military solution to this or any other territorial and/or philosophical dispute.  How many more young men, women, children have to have their life’s blood spilled before humans finally see this.

We must talk, open our hearts, talk again, open our minds, talk again, talk again and again, with a real willingness to both solve the disagreement and realize how our “opponents” were born and what sustains their antipathy.

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By wadosy, February 24, 2009 at 12:10 pm Link to this comment

i didnt ask you about the founders of america, did i?

if you “utterly detest” netanyahu, and netanyahu is continuing the policies of israel’s founders, you logically have to detest israel’s founders, dont you?

and once again we see a defender of israel trot out the “two wrongs make a right” defense of israel… this in addition to the previous “might makes right” argument.


“the light unto nations”, tikkun olam, and “benevolent global hegemony”—actions speak louder than those fancy words, dont they?

and the hypocrisy of israel and its defenders is blindingly obvious.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 24, 2009 at 11:58 am Link to this comment

wadosy, February 24 at 10:18 am #

why do you “utterly despise” netanyahu?

he’s only continuing the policies of israel’s founders.

so you have to despise israel’s founders, too, if you’re to show any moral consistency.
*******************************************

Your logic is flawed.  I advocate a 2 state solution and FULL rights for all Israelis, whether Jew, Moslem, Christian, Agnostic or Atheist.  Netanyahu advocates neither.  He will only accept a 2-state solution under protest and do everything to stop it.

Thomas Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence, helped establish the freedom of religion and the fully secular state. Yet while he talked about “freedom” and “liberty” he held slaves by the hundreds and described Blacks as intellectually inferior and bad-smelling, and didn’t free them in his will, not even the lady who was his common-law wife for years.

James Madison, the father of the Bill of Rights was a slave-holder too.

Does that mean we are to negate the value of the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights?

Caucasian invaders took over my state, New Jersey, in the 1600’s and 1700’s.  Should everyone of us move out of New Jersey?  Maybe we now have a good reason to toss Sarah Palin out of Alaska—after all, she and her family are ultimately invaders.

As I said—your logic is flawed.  Such simple fallacious “acid tests” are arguments used by dogmatic Christians and Marxists.  And children.

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By wadosy, February 24, 2009 at 11:18 am Link to this comment

why do you “utterly despise” netanyahu?

he’s only continuing the policies of israel’s founders.

so you have to despise israel’s founders, too, if you’re to show any moral consistency.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 24, 2009 at 10:50 am Link to this comment

Folktruther:
I won’t admit this stuff because it’s crap you made up, yet again, and I don’t pretend crap is fact the way you like to.

Your fundamental premise is that anyone who doesn’t want to see Israel destroyed must be a racist who hates all Arabs in general and Palestinians especially and believes in “ethnic cleansing”.  That’s it in a nutshell and it is…CRAP!

You build all of your arguments on this false premise, manufacture thoughts that you think are in my head (without ever checking with me, and, when I tell you they are wrong, insist that’s what I’m thinking). 

I have never argued (and never will) to
a) Expel Arabs Israelis from Israel.
b) Limit Arab Israelis rights in ANY way or that they shouldn’t enjoy EVERY right their Jewish compatriots enjoy.
c) Keep ANY land of the West Bank or Gaza
d) Let any Israeli settlers remain in the Arab territories
e) that the Palestinians shouldn’t have a full nation of their own.

Yet, in your twisted mind that STILL makes me a racist and an “ethnic cleanser”.

Your intellectual dishonesty and name-calling is EXACTLY what I predicted you and Wadosy and Harges would say.  All three want Israel destroyed…[B}DESTROYED!...as if THAT is, somehow, NOT ethnic cleansing!

Why don’t you three just propose that Russia, France, China, Britain and the US nuke Israel out of existence?  And let them use neutron bombs so that when every Jew in Israel is dead, all the Palestinians can move back in?  That is the logical, and ONLY logical conclusion that can be inferred from all your postings since it’s clear that your PREFERRED alternative is to drive every Jew in Israel out, whether into the sea or to “someplace else”. 

Hey! How about Antarctica since that’s not already occupied?  Hitler proposed Madagascar but that’s already occupied. Even the Australian desert is peopled by the Pintubis.

While we are at it, let’s drive the Poles in the Western 1/3 of Poland back east and give that 1/3 back to Germany from whom it was stolen in 1945. That’s about as realistic a plan.

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By Blackspeare, February 24, 2009 at 9:49 am Link to this comment

Danger extreme danger ahead!!!  Never before has Israel, since Carter, faced an US administration that will prove to be Arabesque.  With the Carter pro-Arab position, Israel had a wide military advantage.  Today that gap was been shortened.  The Arab nations always had a secret weapon that they have used to considerable advantage and that weapon was “time”  Israel may have won many battles, but may have lost the war by failing to follow through on their victories.  They were too sensitive to world opinion when such opinion is fickle and short-lived.

Obama is keen on the Saudi initiative, but for Israel is fraught with danger.  The Saudi plan is a ruse designed to hem in Israel between two Arab entities, Gaza and the West Bank, three if you include Egypt.  Once the Palestinians declare a state they will begin to arm in spite of any pre-agreements to the contrary.  The world will have to see just how Obama can twist Israel into accepting this——I strongly doubt it under Netanyahu.  However, the Arabs, at this juncture, can sense victory and we’ll see how far they can push Israel before the final war.

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By Folktruther, February 24, 2009 at 9:41 am Link to this comment

No, Inherit, take my word for it, you’re an ignorent lout.  However, I do not class you with-ugh- Howard and Sepharid because you have a risidual moral and intellectual sense, just as Manx cats have a stub instead of a tail,  and know that Israel’s current policy is both irrational and immoral. And you are actually trying to find a historical solution to the Israeli problem.  You can’t do so for two reasons.

  1. You are intellectually ignorent.
  2. you are a moral lout.


Cyreana has a nice metaphor of Israel as an an organic transplant that didn’t take.  Israel could have actually made peace after the 1967 war, where Israel was the military agressor, but it took the route of imperial expansion rather than homeland security. 

Increasingly now it has neither, and its rightward political swerve is leading to a cataclismic ending as the people of Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, etc shake off the corrupt and oppressive regimes the US and the West have saddled them with, and unite against US-Israeli violence.

Your notion that Iran and Israel are natural allies because they both hate Arabs, as you do, is, as Fadel has pointed out, simple ignorence.  You assume that because you are racist against Palestinians, Iran would be too.  They are certainly against Saudi Arabia religion which infects the Taliban, as most decent people are, which is so oppressive it does not even permit women to drive cars or bicycles.  Only the US, Israel and louts like you could support this kind of oppression, for geostrategic reasons.

The reason that Israel did not make peace when it could, and won’t, is because it is based on ethnic cleansing.  This was embodied in Israel’s first premier Ben Gorion, and has gotten progressively worse as Israel has been continuous ruled by yahoos. Louts.  Who are now thieves and rapists as well, like US Bushites. 

But I did not know this, and most Jews still don’t, which is why Robert and breurerstoupe perform such a valuable scholarship service.  You will never admit it because your political ignorence is based on psychological denial, and you simple echo the Aipac line as the American people throw off the Zionist hijacking of US policies.

I should mention also that the American and Israeli people have been taught to identify with power morality rather than people morality, and it is widely assumed that Israeli and US military supeority is overwealming. 

This is because most people don’t know anything about military strategy and assume it is like a big bar fight, where the ideas is to kill as many people as possible.  Since the US and Israel certainly kill a lot of people, the naive and ignorant view is that Isreal is winning its wars.

Wrong.  As the Israeli peacer Ari Uvanary has pointed out, Israel has lost all its wars for the past quarter of a century.  It has failed to accomplish its military objectives despite the huge cost, borne by the US.  The Gaza war was an enormous Israel failure militarily because it increased the support of the Palestinians for Hamas rather than destroying Hamas.  As was the 2006 Lebanon war, etc.

It is only political dingbats like Shenonymous who think Israel has been a strong military power. But then she thinks the Palestinian people are morally deficient because,as their children are murdered and their homes are destroyed, they do not posess her rollicking sense of humor.  And Hamas does not have the fashion sense to appreciate Calvin Klein jeans and the like. 

Shenonymous has been Educated to regard style as substance.  And as Goethe said, we all see the world through the lens of our own superiorities.  You, Inherit, have been trained to see the world as a Zionist.  Pity.

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By Ed Harges, February 24, 2009 at 6:55 am Link to this comment

ITW writes:

“Israel is a fait-accompli, and has been for 61 years. Every attempt to destroy Israel militarily has failed.”

The US should cease all external support for Israel right now. That is the right thing to do, regardless of whether or not Israel is truly indestructible as you claim.

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By wadosy, February 24, 2009 at 6:28 am Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind, would you mind explaining how you can “utterly detest” netanyahu when he’s the spiritual and philosophical heir to israel’s founders?

are you saying that you detest israel’s founders, and that israel was a mistake?


we’re supposed to ask, “is it good for the jews?” and, “is it good for israel?”

when will you get around to asking yourself, “is israel good for the jews?”... because that’s the real question, isnt it?

so israel stole the land to found itself, and continues to steal land and terrorize the native population… and you justify that by saying, “Israel is a fait-accompli, and has been for 61 years. Every attempt to destroy Israel militarily has failed.”

so might makes right.

do you spose you’re gonna be mighty enough, on your own hook, to defend yourself once your american protector goes tits up?

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By Inherit The Wind, February 24, 2009 at 5:28 am Link to this comment

cyrena, February 24 at 1:09 am #

ITW writes:


“Maybe I’m not such an ignorant lout after all.”

~~~

Well, *I* certainly never said that you WERE!! wink

I even (sort of) followed your argument on why Israel and Iran “SHOULD” BE political allies.

But absolutely NO other country in the Middle East is an ‘ally’ to Israel, despite the geopolitical sensibility of it. In fact, Israel has been like a bad organ transplant from the very beginning. It just never did ‘take’ to the rest of the body’s (that would be the Middle Eastern Region)parts, or ‘family’ of organs that I tend to think of as the human body.


There’s gotta be a reason.

I suspect because it’s because ‘allies’ were never in the plan…at least not if they happen to be Muslim or Arab.
***************************************************

Israel is a fait-accompli, and has been for 61 years. Every attempt to destroy Israel militarily has failed.

There are only two choices available to Israel’s enemies:

1) Destroy Israel by force.  That was tried in 1948, 1967 and 1973 and failed each time.  The ongoing guerrilla wars of Hamas, Hezbollah and the Intifada have also failed to achieve their goals.

2) Accept Israel’s existence and make the best peace they can, putting the children and future first.

Likewise, Israel must face facts as well:

1) Hamas is the dominant power in Gaza. Like it or hate it Hamas has to be considered.

2) Iran’s Islamic Republic ain’t collapsing anytime soon. The last chance at that died when Bush pushed the moderates from power with his idiotic “Axis of Evil” speech combined with his spitting in their outstretched open hand.  Israel needs to deal with Iran without actually planning for a military option (except as a response to an attack).  As pointed out here: Iran has never overtly attacked another nation in the 30 years of the Islamic Republic.  However, its penchant for funding and training surrogates must be addressed.

3) The keys to Hezbollah are in Syria and Iran.  Work things out with them, and Hezbollah will dry up and starve.

But your rhetoric about Israel being a bad transplant is nothing more than rhetoric and it’s useless in the search for a solution.

In the current state of affairs, Israel DOES have natural allies.  Nowadays, Egypt and Lebanon are natural allies to Israel.  Jordan, once an opponent, is now, if not an ally, at least is not an enemy. And, as has been LONG noted, Saudi Arabia, while publicly attacking Israel, in secret, wants and needs Israel to exist, acting, in part, as the military neutralizer in the region to temper the rising and falling desires of conquest of Saudi’s neighbors.  Saudi Arabia, is, surprisingly, a natural ally of Israel.

And, as I’ve long insisted, so is Iran.

Peace will not be achieved in Israel/Palestine/Lebanon without negotiations and compromises by all the parties.  It cannot be achieved by military force. 

If that’s not blatantly clear, then you haven’t been watching for the last 42 years!

(I expect FolkTruther and Robert and others to now come up with a series of insults to toss at me, followed by a list of Israel’s “trespasses”, followed by a call for the world to unite to destroy Israel, followed by a denial that they advocate such a thing.  FT will then combine some neo-Marxist polito-babble to justify it. Where’s the popcorn?)

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By cyrena, February 24, 2009 at 2:09 am Link to this comment

ITW writes:


“Maybe I’m not such an ignorant lout after all.”

~~~

Well, *I* certainly never said that you WERE!! wink

I even (sort of) followed your argument on why Israel and Iran “SHOULD” BE political allies.

But absolutely NO other country in the Middle East is an ‘ally’ to Israel, despite the geopolitical sensibility of it. In fact, Israel has been like a bad organ transplant from the very beginning. It just never did ‘take’ to the rest of the body’s (that would be the Middle Eastern Region)parts, or ‘family’ of organs that I tend to think of as the human body.


There’s gotta be a reason.

I suspect because it’s because ‘allies’ were never in the plan…at least not if they happen to be Muslim or Arab.

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