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With Gaza, Journalists Fail Again

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Posted on Jan 26, 2009
AP photo / Sebastian Scheiner

A rainbow, as if projected by the American media, is seen over the northern Gaza Strip, from the Israel-Gaza Border.

By Chris Hedges

(Page 2)

It was Israel, not Hamas, which violated the truce established last June. This was never made clear in any of the press reports. Hamas agreed to halt rocket fire into Gaza in exchange for an Israeli promise to ease the draconian siege that made the shipment of vital material and food into Gaza nearly impossible. And once the agreement was reached, the Hamas rocket fire ended. Israel, however, never upheld its end of the agreement. It increased the severity of the siege. U.N. agencies complained. International relief organizations condemned the Israeli blockade. And there were even rumblings inside Israel. Shmuel Zakai, an Israeli brigadier general who resigned as commander of the Israel Defense Forces’ Gaza Division and was forcibly discharged from the military amid allegations that he leaked information to the media, told the Israeli newspaper Haaretz on Dec. 22 that the Israeli government had made a “central error” during the tahdiyeh, the six-month period of relative truce, by failing “to take advantage of the calm to improve, rather than markedly worsen, the economic plight of the Palestinians of the Strip. … [W]hen you create a tahdiyeh, and the economic pressure on the Strip continues,” Zakai said, “it is obvious that Hamas will try to reach an improved tahdiyeh, and that their way to achieve this is resumed Qassam fire. … You cannot just land blows, leave the Palestinians in Gaza in the economic distress they’re in, and expect that Hamas will just sit around and do nothing.”

Israel, we know from papers such as Haaretz, started planning this assault last March. The Israeli army deliberately broke the truce when it carried out an attack on Nov. 4 that killed six Hamas fighters. It timed the attack, the heavy air and naval bombardment and the invasion of Gaza to coincide with the waning weeks of the Bush administration. Israel knew it would be given carte blanche by the White House. Hamas responded to the Nov. 4 provocation in the way Israel anticipated. It fired Qassam rockets and Grad missiles into Israel to retaliate. But even then Hamas offered to extend the truce if Israel would lift the blockade. Israel refused. Operation Cast Lead was unleashed.

Henry Siegman, the director of the U.S./Middle East Project at the Council of Foreign Relations, noted correctly that Israel “could have met its obligation to protect its citizens by agreeing to ease the blockade, but it didn’t even try. It cannot be said that Israel launched its assault to protect its citizens from rockets. It did so to protect its right to continue the strangulation of Gaza’s population.”

There were a few flashes of integrity in the American press. The Wall Street Journal ran a thoughtful piece, “How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas,” on Jan. 24 that was unusual in view of the acceptance in U.S. press coverage that Hamas is nothing more than an Islamo-fascist organization that understands only violence. And some journalists from news organizations such as the BBC did a good job once they were finally permitted to enter Gaza. Jimmy Carter wrote an Op-Ed article in The Washington Post detailing his and the Carter Center’s efforts to prevent the conflict. This article was an important refutation of the Israeli argument, although it was ignored by the rest of the media. But these were isolated cases. The publishers, news executives and editors largely accepted without any real protest Israel’s ban on coverage and allowed Israeli officials to fill their news pages and airtime with fabrications and distortions. And this made the war crimes carried out by the Israeli army easier to commit and prolong.

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Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, who is acutely aware of Israel’s violations of international law, has already begun to reassure his commanders that they will be protected from war crimes prosecution.

“The commanders and soldiers that were sent on the task in Gaza should know that they are safe from any tribunal and that the State of Israel will assist them in this issue and protect them as they protected us with their bodies during the military operation in Gaza,” he said.

Israel’s brutal military tactics, despite the lack of coverage in the American press, have come under intense international scrutiny. Human rights groups, including Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, blame the high civilian death toll on indiscriminate firing and shelling, as well as the use of white phosphorus shells in civilian areas. Israel has admitted using white phosphorus in Gaza but insists the chemical, used for smoke screens and to mark spots to be shelled or bombed, was not used directly against civilians.

Hamas is an unsavory organization. It has made life miserable for many in Gaza and carried out a series of death-squad-style executions of alleged opponents. But Hamas, elected to power in 2006, also brought effective civil control to Gaza. Gaza, ruled by warring factions, warlords, clans, kidnapping rings and criminal gangs, had descended into chaos under Mahmoud Abbas’ corrupt Fatah-led government. Hamas, once it assumed power, halted suicide bombing attacks on Israel. It ended rocket fire into Israel for almost a year. It upheld its agreement with Israel. Hamas’ willingness to negotiate with Israel, albeit through Egyptian intermediaries, led al-Qaida, which has been working to make inroads among the Palestinians, to condemn the Hamas leadership as collaborators.

Israel and the United States carried out an abortive and desperate attempt to overthrow Hamas by arming and backing a Fatah putsch in June 2007. They wanted to install the pliant Abbas in power. Hamas resisted, often with violent brutality, and expelled Abbas and the Fatah leadership from Gaza to the West Bank. Israel has now decided to do the dirty job itself. It will not work. Israel broke and discredited Yasser Arafat and Fatah in much the same manner. Abbas and Fatah have no authority or credibility left. Abbas is seen by most Palestinians as a pliant Israeli stooge. Israel is now destroying Hamas. Radical Islamic groups, such as al-Qaida, far more violent and irrational, stand poised to replace Hamas. And Israel will one day look wistfully at Hamas just as it does now at Fatah. But by then, with Israel surrounded by radical Islamic regimes in Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and even Jordan, as well as fighting a homegrown al-Qaida movement among the Palestinians, it may be too late.

The Israeli government bears the responsibility for its crimes. But by giving credibility to the lies and false narratives Israel uses to justify wholesale slaughter we empower not only Israel’s willful self-destruction but our own. The press, as happened during the buildup to the Iraq war, was again feckless and gutless. It bent to the will of the powerful. It abandoned its sacred contract with its readers, listeners and viewers to always tell the truth. It chattered about nothing. It obscured the facts. It did this while hundreds of women and children were torn to shreds by iron fragmentation bombs in a flagrant violation of international law. And as it failed it lauded itself for doing “a fair, balanced and complete job.”

Chris Hedges’ Truthdig column appears Mondays. He is a veteran journalist and the former New York Times Mideast bureau chief.


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By Shingo, February 4, 2009 at 2:41 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther,

You are exactly right.  Like I said, evenHitler would have preferred to peacefully conquer Europe if he had the option.

Like you said, the Zionists want peace with Israeli domination.  The Camp David offer stipulated that even with a 2 state solution in place, Israel woudl control all security for both states and all the water resources.

It’s is also true that most of the world wants peace with justice for the Palesitinians.  At the UN last November, there was a UN resolutin calling for the Palestinains to be granted self detrmination.  The Vote went 175 for an 5 against.

No prizes for guessing who voted against it.

>> The ambiguity between ‘peace with domination’ or ‘peace with justice’ makes clear discourse impossible.

You hit the nail on the head.  Israel is offering 80% of 22% of what originally belonged to the Palestinians. Even of that 80% of 22%, none of it will be contiguous.  It will just be pockets of Palestinians villages, with no means to move between them.

Report this

By vancemack, February 4, 2009 at 2:37 pm Link to this comment

Israel evil, Hamas and Palestine good…let it rain. I truly dont care. Everyone should just keep doing what they are doing. Let it rain.

Report this

By Shingo, February 4, 2009 at 2:26 pm Link to this comment

vancemack,

>> Of course, the Israelis COULD just want peace from having a constant barrage of rocket attacks. They COULD just want to be able to live. Maybe…the COULD you know.

Yes, I do love that image Vancemack.  One guy is on the floor will blodd comming out of every orifice.  The other guy is standing over him with his foot on the other guy’s throat and laments “why can’t we ust have peace?”.

Report this

By Shingo, February 4, 2009 at 2:23 pm Link to this comment

vancemack,

>> Damned Zionist propaganda from the AP and UK Times…I bet it was the Zionists that actually strapped the bombs to these two mentally retarded women too… too…

And this is Hamas’ fault?

>> Al Qaeda use two Down’s syndrome women to blow up 99 people in Baghdad marketsLast updated

And this is Hamas’ fault?

>> Hey…at least we are back to calling them terrorists! Now the new pres can actually fight terrorists and not insurgents and freedom fighters.

Too right.  That stupid Ronald Reagna,  What was he thinking when he referrred to the mujahadeen (Bin Landen’s ganbg) as freedom fighters and people who espoused th evalues of our founding fathers.

As for the fredom fighters in Iraq, those ungrateful bastards.  All we did was invaded, ddestroy their country, kill a million people, create 1.2 m millin widows, 5 million orphans, 4.5 million refugees and this is how they thank us?

Bloody muslims.

>> that well known Zionist Hosni Mubarek has blamed Hamas for allowing the attacks in Israel

Yeah would be the same dictator Mubarek who receives billons in aid from Washington.  The same dicator who and tortures and suppersses his population, but is stil regarded by Washington as an ally?

Yeah I thought that’s who you meant.

>> for not negotiating the return of an Israeli soldier, and for underestimating Israels response to the attacks.

Oh yeah, Gilad Shalit.  That was the soldier that was captured the day after the IDF kidnapped 2 Palestinian brothers from Gaza, who have never been seen or heard from since.  But who cares right vance?  Arab life is just so cheap.

>> He also stated that Palestinians suffer because Hamas is nothing more than a tool for the Iranians and Syrians.

He would do,  He’s getting paid handsomely to read from a pre prepared script.

>> Seems to me if they really wanted a continued conflict they wouldnt have built the wall and we would still be seeing suicide bombings with the same frequency as before.

I tell you what Vance.  Seeing as you’re so worried about the suicide bombings, lobby Washington to send some F-16’s over to Gaza for the Palestinians to use.  I’m pretty sure the suicide bobings will stop.

Report this

By Shingo, February 4, 2009 at 2:10 pm Link to this comment

vancemack, February 4 at 12:58 pm #

>> http://www.hrw.org/en/node/10911/section/1

Mortars launched by Hamas?

>> http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/E nglish/eng_n/pdf/hamas_e017.pdf

Link is dead.

>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090204/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ ml_gaza_hamas_un

Hamas police in Gaza are the authority in Gaza.  So what?

>> http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2009-02-04-gaza- aid_N.htm

Dead link.

>> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/Hamas_seiz ed_food_aid_in_Gaza_UN/articleshow/4077457.cms

Quote “raising the possibility of a rupture between the organization that cares for most of Gaza’s residents and the territory’s militant rulers”

So militants stole the food.  There are thugs in every country.

>>  http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5h wK_CSpBxsNuVUEaDuOwmSSCiqGwD964CM800

Another dead link

>> http://www.mahalo.com/Samira_Ahmed_Jassim

First thing,  What does this have to do with Hamas, or are you just reverting to your islamphobic tick?

Did you actualyl read the lnks to the MSM articles?  All of them site US officials.

Quote:
“Major-General Qassim al-Moussawi released video of the woman confessing to recruiting and training women to become suicide bombers.”

Do you think that came before or after she was water boarded?  But seriously, all this does is verify the findings or Robert Pape.  That 90% of suicide bombings are related to territorial disputes, not religion.

>> Seriously…does it MATTER if I post links to this stuff? It doesnt fit your little paradigm…it is all Zionist reporting…right?

And when you get over your tick, do explain what this has to do with Palestine?

You’re right.  You suck at comedy.

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By vancemack, February 4, 2009 at 1:58 pm Link to this comment

http://www.hrw.org/en/node/10911/section/1

Rockets and Mortars Launched from Gaza May-Nov ‘08 [6] Type Jan Feb Mar Apr May June Jul Aug Sept Oct Nov Dec
Rockets 136 228 103 373 206 158 4 8 1 1 125 361
Mortar 241 257 196 145 149 87 8 3 3 1 68 241

http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/pdf/hamas_e017.pdf

Whatever. Let it rain, baby.

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By vancemack, February 4, 2009 at 1:45 pm Link to this comment

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hwK_CSpBxsNuVUEaDuOwmSSCiqGwD964CM800

http://www.mahalo.com/Samira_Ahmed_Jassim

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article5653088.ece

Seriously…does it MATTER if I post links to this stuff? It doesnt fit your little paradigm…it is all Zionist reporting…right?

Comedian? No…dude…I dont find anything funny about this stuff.

Report this

By Shingo, February 4, 2009 at 1:31 pm Link to this comment

vancemack,

>> Hamas claiming Hamas hasnt launched rockets isnt the same as Gaza (Palestine) not launching rockets.

Actually, the Israeli government spokesman also agree with this.  I supopse he supports Hmas too?

Sorry to burst your bubble vancemack.

>> The UN says Hamas is stealing food and blankets meant for Gaza refugees.

Any link or we supposed to take your word for it?

>> The face of evil—Samira Ahmed Jassim had 80 women raped and shamed them into becoming human bombs.

Any link or we supposed to take your word for it?

>> The Associated Press reports US military figures indicate at least 36 female suicide bombers attempted or carried out 32 attacks last year.

I do love these reports.  The AP quoted the US military from a war zone and that it supposed to rock solid evidence right?

You shoudl be a commedian vancemack.

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By Shingo, February 4, 2009 at 1:23 pm Link to this comment

Inheret the Wind

Part 2 of 2

>> Actually, a vast majority of Arabs want peace—but Hamas and Hezbollah do not, and both terrorize their own populations

That’s pure BS.  Hamas are the democratically elected government of Gaza.  Hezbollah were democraticaly elected into the Lebanese government.

Hezbollah attack Israel when Israel are in Lebanon.  You are the belief that Israel are always allowed to invaded their neighbors, not visa versa? Hezbollah would not even exist if Israel had not invaded Lebanon (1 of 5 times) and occupied it for 8 yeasr and killed 17,000 people. If Israel don;t want Hezbollah to attack, stay out of Lebanon.  Simple.

What was the reason Isrel used on ‘06 to start bombing al of Southern Lebanon?  That 2 soldiers had been captured.  Israel kidpnaps Palestinains al the time.  Does that mean that they are free to fire rockets into Israel?

Hamas have supported a 2 state solution.  They have signed the offer by the arab League to support a 2 state solution and recognize Israel.  Israel have rejected the offer.

But, so too, a vast majority of Israelis want peace too, but their leadership wants expansion more than they want peace.  To this day, the ISraeli government stil gives cash incentives for setlers to move into the West Bank.  They talk about having to remove the settlers from there, but a) their policies contradict this stance and b) no leader would ever have the stomach to remove the settlers.

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By Shingo, February 4, 2009 at 1:23 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind,

Part 1 or 2

>> If Hitler wanted peace he could have not invaded Poland. 

I’m sure Hiler would have been happy with moving into Poland, a la Soviet Union style, without having to kill anyone.

>> It’s a false fantasy that the Arabs were driven out of Israel in 1948 BY THE JEWS, a convenient fantasy to justify attacks against them,

This is an undisuted fact.

- Benny Morris has written a book about it.  He refere to the Nakba as Israel’s original sin.
- Illan Pape has write a book about it, called the Enthnic CLeasnsing of Palestine.
- Israel’s fomer foreing minister, Shlomo Ben Ami has also written a book about it.

I suppose you’re nore going to say there was no such thing as Palestinians right?  Can’t wait for that.

BTW.  No one is disputing that 900,000 Jews weren driven from their homes in Arab nations.

>> For all their faults, the Israelis are not rounding all Palestinians and herding them into ghettos—yet another fantasy.

They have already gone it with Gaza.  It’s an open air prison.

>> Destroying homes? Sure! When a suicide bomber attacks Israel, his family’s home is flattened.  Horrors! 

Rubbish.
Israel uses this excuse every time, which usually turns out to be a lie.  Look at what happened with Rachel Corrie.

Israel has destroyed tens of thousand of homes, and the most common reason is that the homes are illegal. 

>> Remember the Soviet Union? There were VERY few attacks on them. Why?

Suicide bombings in teh Soviet Union?  Do tell. Suicide bombers are not a finite number.  They are created through Israel’s poilicies.  BTW.  Israel never drove people off their land.

>> It’s a chicken-and-egg issue, so the fantasy of Jews driving Arabs out of Israel had to be created, in order to JUSTIFY Palestinian terrorism.

No it has been statistically proven. A study funded by the US DOD concluded that 90-95% of suicide bobings are related to territorial disputes.

>> It’s regrettable but their deaths fall on the heads of those who used them as human shields, not those who sought to wipe out the source of the attacks. 

This is so cynical it’s breathtaking.  Gaza is the most overcrowded region in the world.  When you fire into a city using conventional weapons, you make the choice to kill civilians.  Israeli leaders have boasted that they have always targetted civilians in order to pressure the population to pressure their leadership.
 
The Norwegian doctor who was in Gaza exposed this BS.  He said of th hundreds of dead an injured civilians who were brought into the hospital, almost none were Hammas. He said that civiliasn were being targetted.

What you are citing is pure Iraeli propaghanda that has not been supported by any independent journalist.  Why do you think Israesl banned foreing journalists from entering Gaza in the first place?  The last time Israel spread that BS, they were exposed as liars ie. Lebanon ‘06.

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By Shingo, February 4, 2009 at 12:49 pm Link to this comment

Sepharad,

>> Menachem Begin was indeed an Irgun terrorist, but having a country of your own brings out the best in people:

Not really.  It didn’t bring out the best in Sharon, nor the other terorrist, Yitzak Shamir.

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By vancemack, February 4, 2009 at 10:35 am Link to this comment

Folktruther…thats YOUR assumption. Of course, the Israelis COULD just want peace from having a constant barrage of rocket attacks. They COULD just want to be able to live. Maybe…the COULD you know.

Seems to me if they really wanted a continued conflict they wouldnt have built the wall and we would still be seeing suicide bombings with the same frequency as before.

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By Folktruther, February 4, 2009 at 9:36 am Link to this comment

“Peace” is a meaningless term unless one specifies the kind of peace one aims at.  Zionists want peace with Israeli domination and ethnic cleansing, and most of the world wants peace with justice for the Palesitinians.  The ambiguity between ‘peace with domination’ or ‘peace with justice’ makes clear discourse impossible. 

This in fact is the aim of the dominating side.

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By vancemack, February 4, 2009 at 9:06 am Link to this comment

Oh…and bytheway…that well known Zionist Hosni Mubarek has blamed Hamas for allowing the attacks in Israel, for not negotiating the return of an Israeli soldier, and for underestimating Israels response to the attacks. He also stated that Palestinians suffer because Hamas is nothing more than a tool for the Iranians and Syrians.

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By vancemack, February 4, 2009 at 8:20 am Link to this comment

Just a little tidbit…in the month of January, Muslims killed 599 Muslims in Iraq.

Cant WAIT for the voice of outrage to kick into high gear hear from the TruthDig Lewinsky’s.

Yeah…Im a little edged today. These kind of news stories piss me off. And I have NO DOUBT there will be the steady stream of apologists.

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By vancemack, February 4, 2009 at 8:07 am Link to this comment

Damned Zionist propaganda from the AP and UK Times…I bet it was the Zionists that actually strapped the bombs to these two mentally retarded women too…

Al Qaeda use two Down’s syndrome women to blow up 99 people in Baghdad marketsLast updated at 11:43 03 February 2008

Al Qaeda fanatics plumbed to sickening new depths yesterday when they turned two women with Down’s syndrome into human bombs to kill 99 people in Baghdad.
The unwitting pawns were apparently fooled into wearing explosive vests which were then detonated remotely by mobile phones as the women mingled with crowds.
The two blasts caused carnage at two busy markets in the Iraqi capital’s deadliest atrocity since last spring.
Involving women in fighting violates religious taboos in Iraq, but extremists are recruiting females and youths to stage suicide attacks in a desperate attempt to beat tightened security measures.
Women can avoid thorough searches at checkpoints because of Islamic sensitivities, and four have carried out suicide bombings since November.
Yesterday’s attacks are the first ever to have involved anyone with Down’s Syndrome.
The first attack was in the central al-Ghazl market, where numerous birds and animals were on sale.
The weekly bazaar had been bombed several times but recently had re-emerged as a popular place to shop and stroll as Baghdad security improved and a Friday ban on driving was lifted.
The woman carrying the bomb, hidden under her traditional black Islamic robe, was a familiar figure at the market where she sold cream.
At least 46 people were killed and more than 100 wounded. Fire crews scooped up remains scattered among blood, clothing and pigeon carcasses.
About 20 minutes later, the second bomb blew up a bird market in a predominantly Shiite area in southeastern Baghdad, killing up to 22 people and wounding 65, according to police and hospital officials.
The women used in the attacks were unlikely to have been willing participants, said the chief Iraqi military spokesman in Baghdad, Brigadier-General Qassim al-Moussawi.
Women in the pet markets grieve after the twin bombings, which were reportedly carried out against the will of the bombers.
The attacks, shortly before the weekly Islamic call to prayer, were the latest in a series of violent incidents that have been chipping away at Iraqi confidence in the permanence of recent security improvements.

Hey…at least we are back to calling them terrorists! Now the new pres can actually fight terrorists and not insurgents and freedom fighters.

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By vancemack, February 4, 2009 at 7:42 am Link to this comment

Hamas claiming Hamas hasnt launched rockets isnt the same as Gaza (Palestine) not launching rockets.

In other news…

The UN says Hamas is stealing food and blankets meant for Gaza refugees.

Civil rights groups are pointing to violations of war by BOTH Israel and Hamas, claiming Hamas launched rocket attacks from within schools and churches, and other civilian population centers, while Israel should have shown restrain and not attacked those missile sites.

And THIS beauty…

The face of evil—Samira Ahmed Jassim had 80 women raped and shamed them into becoming human bombs.

Mastermind ... Samira Ahmed Jassim confessed to organising the rape of 80 women so she could recruit them as suicide bombers. (Herald Sun)

A WOMAN suspected of recruiting more than 80 female suicide bombers has confessed to organising their rapes so she could later convince them that martyrdom was the only way to escape the shame.

Samira Jassam, 51, was arrested by Iraqi police and confessed to recruiting the women and orchestrating dozens of attacks.

In a video confession, she explained how she had mentally prepared the women for martyrdom operations, passed them on to terrorists who provided explosives, and then took the bombers to their targets.

“We arrested Samira Jassim, known as ‘Um al-Mumenin’, the mother of the believers, who was responsible for recruiting 80 women’‘, Major General Qassim Atta said.

“She confessed her responsibility for these actions, and she confirmed that 28 attempts had been made in one of the terrorists’ strongholds,’’ he said.

Samira Jassim was arrested on January 21. She is allegedly linked to the Ansar al-Sunnah insurgent group…

The Associated Press reports US military figures indicate at least 36 female suicide bombers attempted or carried out 32 attacks last year.

Allah bless the religion of peace…

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By vancemack, February 4, 2009 at 7:17 am Link to this comment

“Look.  Where we differ is that you believe the Israelis will come good if the Palestinians behave and I don’t.  Similarly, I believe the Arabs want peace and you think they are too far gone to be peaceful.”

I think we are close. Close enough. You think I want death and destruction…OH so wrong…I dont. I want peace. I think what we have now is MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction). Until war because unprofitable it will continue.

I DO understand the way the world works. I understand the way it has worked in the past and I see how it is going now and I have no reason to believe it wont continue for anther 60 years. This isn’t working.

Here is the cool part. At the end of the day…all I have is an opinion. I have voiced mine.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 4, 2009 at 5:13 am Link to this comment

Shingo, February 3 at 11:27 pm #

vancemack,

>> 1-Hitler didnt want peace, he wanted world domination

Peace and world domination are not mutually exclusive.
*************************************************

Shingo, if you want to be taken seriously, don’t make stupid arguments like this.  If Hitler wanted peace he could have not invaded Poland.  Had he not done that, his expansion of Germany into Czechoslovakia and the anschluss with Austria would heve left him a legacy that was only matched by Bismarck.

But on June 22, 1941, Hitler left that behind and invaded Russia and sealed his fate.

*************************************************
>> 2-The Jews werent launching mortar attacks against the Germans, nor were they conduct suicide bombings

Oh I see.  So if they were, you would have advocated them being slaughtered?
******************************************

But the analogy doesn’t hold here. It’s a false fantasy that the Arabs were driven out of Israel in 1948 BY THE JEWS, a convenient fantasy to justify attacks against them, just like it’s a convenient fantasy that 900,000 Jews weren’t driven from their homes in Arab nations.

For all their faults, the Israelis are not rounding all Palestinians and herding them into ghettos—yet another fantasy. Destroying homes? Sure! When a suicide bomber attacks Israel, his family’s home is flattened.  Horrors!  Remember the Soviet Union? There were VERY few attacks on them. Why? Because they hunted down EVERY member of a suicide bomber’s family and slaughtered them. Every one.  Pretty soon they weren’t being attacked anymore.  Israel never took that tactic. (BTW, Saddam Hussein used a similar tactic against anyone who challenged him.)  I guess they didn’t want to be as immorally ruthless as the Soviets and Saddam.

It’s a chicken-and-egg issue, so the fantasy of Jews driving Arabs out of Israel had to be created, in order to JUSTIFY Palestinian terrorism.

******************************************
It never ceases to amaze me that incinerating 400 Palestinian children is acceptable but suicide bombing is pure evil.

*******************************************

It’s regrettable but their deaths fall on the heads of those who used them as human shields, not those who sought to wipe out the source of the attacks.  That’s right: Hamas COUNTED on Israel to either be more humane than Hamas or to be able use their deaths for propaganda purposes.  Hamas PLANNED for those children to die, knowing Israel would be blamed.

I find it amazing that there’s no horror that a suicide bomber could (and did) walk into a pizza parlor filled with children and set his bomb off.  I guess Jewish children don’t mean as much to YOU as Palestinian children.

***************************************
>> I don’t deny the Palestinians their right to retake their land. All I am suggesting is that if they are going to do it by lobbing missile attacks or attempting suicide bombings, then they will HAVE to expect the consequences.

Fair enough.

Look.  Where we differ is that you believe the Israelis will come good if the Palestinians behave and I don’t.  Similarly, I believe the Arabs want peace and you think they are too far gone to be peaceful.
***********************************************

Actually, a vast majority of Arabs want peace—but Hamas and Hezbollah do not, and both terrorize their own populations, just like mafiosa controlling neighborhoods do.

But, so too, a vast majority of Israelis want peace too.  They, like their Arab neighbors, just want to raise their families in peace.  But there is a bloc of 10 to 15% that want “greater Israel” and to drive Arabs out, destroy the Dome of the Rock, and count on God’s Divine Intervention.  In other words, they are mad-crazy fanatics.

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By Sepharad, February 4, 2009 at 12:31 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Shingo, You’re getting punchy. Give it a rest.
Menachem Begin was indeed an Irgun terrorist, but having a country of your own brings out the best in people: as PM Begin signed a peace agreement with Anwar Sadat of Egypt, with Jimmy Carter beaming like a pleased midwife. The treaty is still in effect.

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By Shingo, February 4, 2009 at 12:27 am Link to this comment

vancemack,

>> 1-Hitler didnt want peace, he wanted world domination

Peace and world domination are not mutually exclusive.

>> 2-The Jews werent launching mortar attacks against the Germans, nor were they conduct suicide bombings

Oh I see.  So if they were, you would have advocated them being slaughtered?

It never ceases to amaze me that incinerating 400 Palestinian children is acceptable but suicide bombing is pure evil.

>> I don’t deny the Palestinians their right to retake their land. All I am suggesting is that if they are going to do it by lobbing missile attacks or attempting suicide bombings, then they will HAVE to expect the consequences.

Fair enough. 

Look.  Where we differ is that you believe the Israelis will come good if the Palestinians behave and I don’t.  Similarly, I believe the Arabs want peace and you think they are too far gone to be peaceful.

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By Shingo, February 4, 2009 at 12:22 am Link to this comment

>> The fact is they ARE and that quite frankly isn’t a very intelligent way to bring about peace.

Given that sitting there quietly and taking their punishment like good little Arabs is producing peace (which they did do throughout the ceasefire),  what would you have them do?  Abstaining from firing rockets produces no results, so why should they go quietly?

What is disturbing about your position is that you are evidently endorsing Israel actions of starving the Gazans and then punishing them for not dying quietly.

>> You are the one that keeps pretending that the Palestinians can keep lobbing bombs daily and NOT expect consequence.

These people have no hope and no future.  They are being starved and suffocated.  I am not endorsing what they are doing, but under the Geneva Conventions and International law, an occupied population has the right to fight their occupiers.

>> Negotiate with an equal partner for peace. Show you are serious. FIRST.

They have done.  No rockets were fired by Hamas between June and November.  The Israeli MFA report concluded that Hams were “very careful to observe the ceasefire” and were effective is discouraging militants from doing so.

Is that serious enough?

>> BS…it says the enemy wants to regroup and reload. No cease fire…no truce…STOP THE ATTACKS. COMMIT TO PEACE. T%HEN you have a shot…until then…

For the 100th time - they have.  Get that through your skull.  They did all of that and all they were rewarded with was an attack.

I repeat.  There were NO rockets fired by Hamas between June and November.  In December, Hamas pushed for the ceasefire to be extended. Israel, who broke the ceasefire in November, were the ones who rejected the offer.

>> Now…without MY solution what do you have?

What solution was that?  To die and decay quietly? For the 100th time.  No rockets weer fired by Hamas between June and November and Israel broke the truce, then refused to extend it.

>> All I do is point out historical facts, not the hysterical revisionist history you seem to embrace.

You, who claim that the Palestinians have been firing mortar for 60 years are accusing me of revisionism?  What hysterical revisionist history have I pointed to?

>> You PERSIST in assuming that I CARE about Jew or Muslim here. I DONT. Pick a side and lets have some peace. So much for your Zionist argument.

Yeah right.  All you have carried on about is if you were Israel, you would have wiped out the Arabs.  Not once have you put yourself in the same position as the Arabs.

>> Are you HONESTLY and I mean HONESTLY naive enough to believe that if Israel fully capitulated, that there would be a lasting peace?

You seem to think that giving back the car you stole is capitulation.  You know what?  We’re never going to find out unless we try right? Israel hold all the cards.  They have the most powerful military in the ME.  What have the got to lose?

I know.  The West Bank.

>> The fact is that your rape comment has no relevance to the Israeli/Arab argument,

Spare me the selective morality. In fact, the analogy is not my own.

You’ve heard of Moshe Dayan, the former Israeli Defense Minister? Among the Israeli leadership, he’s regarded as among the most sympathetic to the Palestinians.  He had this to say.

“The situation today resembles the complexed relationship between a Bedouin man and a girl he kidnaps against her will. You Palestinians, as a nation, don’t want us today, but we’ll change your attitude by forcing our presence on you. You will live like dogs, and whoever will leave, will leave and meanwhile, we’ll take what we want”

I’m relieved to hear you advocate they survive, but how do they overcome an abusive environment or change it, when they are stuck in a prison?

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By vancemack, February 3, 2009 at 11:21 pm Link to this comment

1-Hitler didnt want peace, he wanted world domination

2-The Jews werent launching mortar attacks against the Germans, nor were they conduct suicide bombings

But you seem to keep missing…I don’t deny the Palestinians their right to retake their land. All I am suggesting is that if they are going to do it by lobbing missile attacks or attempting suicide bombings, then they will HAVE to expect the consequences. Both parties are culpable. Innocents on both sides are caught up in it. And I personally am tired of it.

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By vancemack, February 3, 2009 at 11:17 pm Link to this comment

Honestly…does it matter? You will simply call all the news agencies Zionist.

You are a smart rat. Use your internet search engine and type in Palestinian rocket and mortar attacks in Israel 2008. Go to Wikipedia and check the sources (dont bother with the text…go to the actual articles).

But it wont matter. You are a “this is TRUTHDIG!!!” sttthpartican and will ONLY see what fits your safe little paradigm.

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By vancemack, February 3, 2009 at 11:09 pm Link to this comment

“If this has NOTHING to do with Jew and Muslim, how do you establish who is in the right and wrong? The party with the bigger guns?”

Isn’t that somewhat telling…YOU base your decision of right and wrong on Jew or Muslim. Shocking!

OK…I WILL tell you once again I am not a Zionist. Will that help? Nah…

“Do you honestly believe that the Palestinians are firing rockets for no reason?”

Do you HONESTLY…I mean HONESTLY…think it MATTERS? The fact is they ARE and that quite frankly isnt a very intelligent way to bring about peace. So…since they have a reason and they aint stoppin, guess what is going to keep happening…

“Are you out of your frigging mind?”

Are YOu? You are the one that keeps pretending that the Palestinians can keep lobbing bombs daily and NOT expect consequence. YOU are the one that thinks somehow that they are going to bomb their way to peace.

“Let me also ask you, if indeed you had been under attack, where is it written hat you cannot negotiate?”

Negotiate with an equal partner for peace. Show you are serious. FIRST.

“It says that the enemy wants to resolve the conflict.”

BS…it says the enemy wants to regroup and reload. No cease fire…no truce…STOP THE ATTACKS. COMMIT TO PEACE. T%HEN you have a shot…until then…

“You on the other hand insist that the only option is more death and destruction.  Way to go psycopath!!”

Thanks Dumbass (since you want to keep on with the name calling). Now…without MY solution what do you have? Oh yeah…another few decades of violence and bloodshed, idiot. Or did Jack sell you a magic wand along with those magic beans?

“Ergo, let’s wipe them out right?  Way to go psycopath!!”

Hey Dumbass…face facts…historically EVERY society engaged in conquest, including the Indians. Deserved? No. Factual? Yep. Deal with it.

“No, the Africans hoped on a boat and came here all by themselves.”

Why no, dumbass…it COULD be the thriving slave trade that persisted throughout northern Africa long before people ever came to America…and STILL continues today. You ought to check a little history as to just how many slaves were traded throughout the middle east, how many eunuchs were created and sold, how many died in the process…etc etc etc.

Have we learned? Absolutely. Point of fact…America abolished slave trade in many states before we became a country.All I do is point out historical facts, not the hysterical revisionist history you seem to embrace.

“Tell that to those stupid morons who negotiated a peace agreement.  Tell that to Japan and Germany for that matter.”

Ummm…maybe you missed it, but Germany negotiated peace AFTER their country was decimated. Japan negotiated peace AFTER the second big bomb finally caught their attention.

You PERSIST in assuming that I CARE about Jew or Muslim here. I DONT. Pick a side and lets have some peace. So much for your Zionist argument.

Are you HONESTLY and I mean HONESTLY naive enough to believe that if Israel fully capitulated, that there would be a lasting peace?

“Let me guess, you’re one of those people who think no means yes That there is no such thing as a rape victim, because deep down they really asked for it.”

The fact is that your rape comment has no relevance to the Israeli/Arab argument, but since I am a therapist and work extensively with victims of sexual assault, once again…your comments are simply ignorant beyond words. But…no..I dont advocate them to take it. I advocate they survive, then do everything in their power to regain their control, their emotional health. That DOES NOT come from remaining in an abusive environment…that comes from CHANGING that environment.

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By Shingo, February 3, 2009 at 7:52 pm Link to this comment

Sephrad,

Your reference to terrorists is so typical. Perhaps you prefer the Stern Gang or Irgun types, who’s leaders later went on to become Israeli Prime Ministers?

The trope that Hezbollah or Hamas fight among civilians is so discredited. Where in Gaza are Hamas supposed to fight from?  The sources of these accusations are usually the Israeli government and by and large, the IDF have demonstrated that they have no regard for civilian casualties anyway. 

This was clearly one of the key reasons for Israel banning foreign journalists from Gaza, after the PR disaster of the ‘06 war, where Israel’s propaganda was exposed by journalists on the ground.

For someone who claims to have been a journalist, your sense of distrust is noticeably one sided.
Patrick Martin’s piece hardly undermining reports of Israel’s barbarism in Gaza. It doesn’t even challenge the official death figures, only one account, and still me provides little more than doubt.

The Moslems got their empire the same way the British, the Spanish, the Portuguese and more recently, the US got theirs. And do tell, what makes you believe that they expect to get all of it back?

It’s so predictable how you people recycle the same talking points.  Sharia law in Europe, the Netherlands. Wow, didn’t see that one coming.  Yes, I do love how you people are so alarmed over these imaginary threats, while barely blinking over the 400 incinerated children in Gaza.

>> But as vance mack said, if they attack Israel they know they’ll get hit back

Those in the Warsaw Ghetto didn’t realize that when they conducted their uprising did they?  They should have listened to vancemack and gone quietly to their deaths.  That’s would have been the honorable thing to do.

It isn’t the leadership in Gaza that is causing the Gaza’s to fire rockets into Israel.  It is Israel’s blockade and genocide.  Hamas supports a 2 state solution. They’ve signed the Arab League offer to recognize Israel as per the 1967 borders.  It is Israel that has rejected these offers.

Israel’s amen corner have constantly harped on about how Israel is a democracy, yet as soon as the Palestinians hold their first democratic elections, Israel attacks, and then supports a failed coup against Hamas. The cynicism is breathtaking.

Arafat’s may have been corrupt.  So is Olmert, Sharon and those that came before the. It’s irrelevant.  Israel shafted Arafat and the Palestinians, then spread the lies that Arafat walked away from the deal.

Abbas sold his soul.  When he and Hamas planned to hold talks over a unity government, Washington and Tel Aviv stopped it in it’s tracks and forced Abbas to go to war with Hamas.
Hezbollah only fired rockets into Israel after the cross border skirmish that Israel then used to justify attacking Southern Lebanon. 

You lament the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers, yet Israel has been kidnapping Gaza’s and Lebanese since 1948.  Israeli prisons are filled with thousands of Arabs it has captures or kidnapped – 1 thousand of which have never even been charged - but I suspect you already knew that.

You probably mourn the capture of Gilad Shalit, yet you probably don’t even know that the day before Shalit’s capture, 2 Palestinian brothers were captured in Gaza by the IDF and have never been seen since.

But they doesn’t matter do they? They’re Arabs and they are expendable. 

>>  If Hamas and Hezbollah don’t rocket and stop kidnapping Israeli soldiers everything will be fine.

Oh really?  Hamas undertook a unilateral ceasefire, beginning in June 2003, and maintained it throughout the summer. Israel conducted of raids and mass arrests that followed, in which some 300 Hamas cadres were seized from the West Bank.  Apparently everything was NOT fine.

Whether they give up or otherwise,  the Palestinians will suffer, because that has been the the policy since Sharon decided to suspend the peace process in formaldehyde.

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By Shingo, February 3, 2009 at 5:40 pm Link to this comment

vancemack,

Of course Isral has the right to peace. Everyone wants peace.  Hitler wanted peace too.  teh question comes down to, on what terms?

if you steal someone’s car, or rape their daughter, you can’t them turn around and say, get over it, let’s move on.

No, the Palestinians will not happily settle for what they have because what they have right now is shit and not not even close to what they are entitled to have.

You keep returning to the issue of the rocket attacks like someone afflicted with an incurable tick, so let’s discuss this once and for all shall we?

The attacks stopped during the ceasefire.  Get it?  they STOPPED.  Nada.  Even mark Regev agrees.  Are we clear on that?

Israel were supposed to lift the blockade in June.  They didn’t.  Still no rocket attacks.  Get it?  they STOPPED

So, can you get it through your skull that an end to the attacks is achievable?  All Israel has to do is take their boot off the throat of the Gazans and return the West Bank. 

Easy.

By the way, no rockets were fired from the West Bank and still, Israel managed to kill 400 Palestinians last year.

>> I understand a lot of their greivance and upset. Thats a completely different topic.

How can you possibly say that?

Now if you were really sick of it and didn’t care about the situatino in the ME, you wouldn’t have wasted your time posting to this blog, so I don;t buy this crap that you are over it.

We have peace and quiet here.  The troule is over there, far away from the comfort of your daily existence.

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By Sephrad, February 3, 2009 at 5:35 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Shingo—A little out of context here with your quotes. I’d like to see what went before and came after. I’ve been a journalist and know people play games like this. But I’d be very surprised to find out that Israel ever deliberately singled out civilians as targets—unless Hezbollah or Hamas or some other loony-toon terrorists were not fighting among them to draw fire, or shooting them to prevent them from leaving—dead if you do or dead if you don’t but in one scenario we won’t kill your family too. That was one Hezbollah ploy in the ‘06 war. And Patrick Martin’s story in the Canadian Globe & Mail was one of many that are undermining tales of evil Israelis in Gaza. Check it out; I think radson provided a link either on this threat or the other Gaza one you’ve been haunting.

How do you think the Moslems got their empire? How do you think they expect to get all of it back? Sheer conquest, that’s how. Only they are being a little smarter with their velvet jihad in Europe. For the moment. Fundamentalists amok and fatwas flying every which way are scaring the littler countries like the Netherlands. Don’t blame ‘em. I’d be scared too. But as vance mack said, if they attack Israel they know they’ll get hit back—hence their zeal in shooting and rocketing and hiding behind Palestinian civilians. I’m very sorry for the civilians because it isn’t their fault that they’ve had no decent leadership choices in awhile—Arafat’s corrupt theft of most of what outsiders sent as aid to the Palestinian people, most of it ending up in Paris paying for Suha’s apartment and clothes and a nestegg really soured Gazans on Fatah. Not Abbas’ fault, not the Gazans’ fault they ended up with Hamas but not Israel’s fault either. If Hamas and Hezbollah don’t rocket and stop kidnapping Israeli soldiers everything will be fine. If they keep doing it, the Palestinians will suffer right along with them unless Israel comes up with some kind of a super weapon that distinguishes betweens the killers and the civvies.

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By Shingo, February 3, 2009 at 5:26 pm Link to this comment

vancemack,

>> this has NOTHING to do with Jew and Muslim.

If this has NOTHING to do with Jew and Muslim, how do you establish who is in the right and wrong? The party with the bigger guns?

>>  YES…that is PRECISELY what I am saying. and OH YES…if they contineu to shell Israel then I would ABSOLUTELY remove them permanently.

Tell me you’re not a Zionist, becasue only a Zionist would deliberate skirt around the issue of the ethnic cleansing of 700,000 Arabs in 1948 and the seizure of land in 1967.

Do you honestly believe that the Palestinians are firing rockets for no reason?

>> Oh…hey…different animal altogether! I never said Palestine didnt have the right to fire back or try to take back Israel!

Are you out of your frigging mind? So your solution is that the Palestinians do have a right to retaliate, and that the Israeli’s should suppress that retaliation. let’s ignore that Israel does have a choice in the matter.  They could, if they wanted to, lift the siege on Gaza.

Firstly, let’s address our ignorance.  The rocket attacks have not taken place for 60 years.  Hell, there was little on no fighting until after the 1967 war - 40 years ago and even then, the shit only hit the fan after the First Intifada.

Let me also ask you, if indeed you had been under attack, where is it written hat you cannot negotiate?  Like Regev said in that interview, there were NOT rocket attacks during the ceasfire.  What does that tell you?  It says that the enemy wants to resolve the conflict.

You on the other hand insist that the only option is more death and destruction.  Way to go psycopath!!

>> Are you honest to God so stupid you ACTUALLY BELIEVE all the native tribes were peace loving earth children until the evil Europeans came along?

Ergo, let’s wipe them out right?  Way to go psycopath!!

>> Oh…wait…you think It was Eurpoean settlers in America that caused the slave trade too…right?

No, the Africans hoped on a boat and came here all by themselves.  I suppose your suggestion is that we should have wiped them out too right?

Way to go psycopath!!

>> OR…maybe I am just a person that sees an eternal conflict with BUT ONE resolution.

Tell that to those stupid morons who negotiated a peace agreement.  Tell that to Japan and Germany for that matter.

>> because neither side is invested in a lasting peace and REALLY…arent you tired of it?

So the offer by the League of Arab nations that offers to recognize Israel as per the 1967 borders and normalise relations with Israel should just be burned is that it?

>> Think about it…if Israel had done this decades ago, how many millions would NOT have died in the ongoing wars?

There were about a million Arabs in Palestine those decades ago.  Last time I looked, Israel had not killed quite than many.

>> Because The Palestinains arent going to stop and Israel isnt going to suddenly tolerate it. So…YOU find a solution that both sides will take.

You just can’t help yourself can you?  Israel has been murdering, kidnapping, imprisoning, torturing, starving, humiliating and beating the Palestinians for decades and you wonder if Israel are going o tolerate the Palestinians?

Let me guess, you’re one of those people who think no means yes That there is no such thing as a rape victim, because deep down they really asked for it.

Am I right?

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By vancemack, February 3, 2009 at 5:24 pm Link to this comment

Shingo…with regard to restraint…my point is simple…I DESPERATELY want peace. I DONT THINK you are going to find peace with tit for tat exchanges. i DO think that the average peaceful every day Isaeli and Palestinian is caught in the crossfire and until something dramatic happens I dont EVER see that changing.

I agree that the UN actions in the late 40s were stupid and ill conceived. What a DISASTROUS plan. We have reaped the wuhirlwind for 60 years.

As a country TODAY…Isral has the right to peace. There is OBVIOUSLY ONLY ONE WAY for that to happen. You say I am a genocidal…whateverthehell it was…maniac was it? Fine…OK. But tell…me…with the latest truce do YOU believe it is over? Do you believe that Palestinians will happily settle for what they have? Do YOU think Israel will sit back and eternal take the daily mortar rounds? (oh no…thats right…you deny there are such attacks ongoing…)

I took numerous trips to the middle east. Believe me…I would rather have been a tourist. Ive seen stuff I dont want to remember and I dont ever see it ending. I met some GREAT people there and actually (Islomophobe hatred aside) TRULY appreciate many of the people there. I dont pretend to ‘know’ Arabs but I understand a lot of their greivance and upset. Thats a completely different topic.

I am simply TIRED of it and you should be too. Honestly…the kneejerk “you are a zionist” reaction here on this site is IDIOTIC. There ARE other sides…some righteous…some not…and honestly anymore…I JUST DONT CARE. Fight to the end…get it over with and lets have a little peace and quiet around here. You want to call me a homocidal genocidal whatver…do I honestly come across like I CARE about the insults?

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By Sepharad, February 3, 2009 at 5:18 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Shingo, vancemack’s last few posts say everything I’d say to you. But I do get some laughs out of your posts anyhow.

Cyrena, I think both vancemack and I live in a more current and realistic world than you allege—or live in yourself, for that matter. I hope this irrational hatred of Israel is not all you have going on in your life, for your sake. I’m not stuck in the Ottoman Empire but realize that it did exist and have its effect on present Palestinian/Israeli issues.

On the “When did we stop caring about civilians” thread, please look at radson’s link about the alleged Israeli bombing of the UN school. It didn’t happen, according to Patrick Martin of the Canadian Global Mail newspaper. (Way back there somewhere, I referred people to an IDF post where they said much the same thing as Martin proved for himself, but considering that the source was IDF, well, I imagine no one bothered to look at it. But it was true just the same. How many others stories are out there regarding Gaza that you don’t know about? Obviously a lot, since many foreign journalists and Palestinian journalists are now in there, have beenb for sometime, and are contradicting some of the truthdig lies. Even Gazans themselves have been contributing information that most of the people on this website just don’t want to know about. Don’t be so afraid to be wrong; just admit it and go on from there.

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By vancemack, February 3, 2009 at 5:06 pm Link to this comment

Now…to the meat and taters…

“At last Vancemack comes clean”

At last??? Are you freakin kidding me? At last? I have been saying this from day one…no hidden agenda here baby and this has NOTHING to do with Jew and Muslim.

“The problem you see, is that Israel didn’t kill enough Arabs in the first place.”

Close…but almost…The problem here is that Israel did not deal with the enemy appropriately the first 100 or so times. YES…that is PRECISELY what I am saying. and OH YES…if they contineu to shell Israel then I would ABSOLUTELY remove them permanently. I dont care WHAT country or conflict you are talking about. 

“Who cares that Israel enthically cleansed 700,000 arabs from their land.  That doesn’t given them a right to complain or fight back.”

Oh…hey…different animal altogether! I never said Palestine didnt have the right to fire back or try to take back Israel! Never! I say let it BE.  So BE it. If Palestine wants to full on engage…fight to the end…FINE.

BUT…if you think in my world i would tolerate 60 years of near daily attacks…you are just oh so wrong. And my guess is if the shoe was on the other foot, the Palestinians wouldnt tolerate it either!

“The genocide of the North American Indians was deserves because they just wouldn’t take no for an answer.”

No…it was a part of conquest…just like the spread of the Assyrian Empire, the British Empire, The Muslim Empire…it is how every country was formed and BTW…it is how indiginious tribes in America rolled for CENTURIES. Are you honest to God so stupid you ACTUALLY BELIEVE all the native tribes were peace loving earth children until the evil Europeans came along? Please tell me…you CANT be that stupid. Oh…wait…you think It was Eurpoean settlers in America that caused the slave trade too…right?

“Vancemack, we owe you an applogy.  You are so mcuh more than just a racist, islamohphobe.  You’re actually a genocidal psycopath”

Once again…CLOSE. I am NOT AT ALL a racist Islamophobe. The genocidal psycopath part…thats OK.

OR…maybe I am just a person that sees an eternal conflict with BUT ONE resolution. Fight to the end, last man standing…THEN you have peace. because neither side is invested in a lasting peace and REALLY…arent you tired of it?

Think about it…if Israel had done this decades ago, how many millions would NOT have died in the ongoing wars? Or if Palestine had one…same thing.

“>> I posted 8 pages worth of links to 1 full year of rocket attacks from palestinian controlled lands into Israel.

Correction.  Make that a genocidal psycopath and a liar.”

I WILL expect an extraction of the “liar” comment. I have NEVER posted anything from UTube and I DID INDEED post 8 separate pages full of links dcument the rocket attacks into Israel by Palestians throughout 2008. That truthdig.com only goes back so far is ALSO a fact. so…be honorable and apologize. I will NEVER lie.

“>> The restraint is that there are still buildings there at all.

Spoken like a true genocidal psycopath.”

Or a logical individual that recognizes there is BUT ONE PATH to lasting peace in the Israel/Palestine conflict. Because The Palestinains arent going to stop and Israel isnt going to suddenly tolerate it. So…YOU find a solution that both sides will take. And then apply for your Nobel peace prize…cuz NO ONE ELSE has it figured out.

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By Shingo, February 3, 2009 at 5:03 pm Link to this comment

vancemack,

Point taken.  You’re a genocidal psychopath, but not a liar.  Glad to see you have your standards.

Would you care to re-post the link to 8 pages of evidence you mentioned?  I’d be curious to see what comprises your reading material.

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By vancemack, February 3, 2009 at 4:48 pm Link to this comment

By Shingo, January 28 at 6:00 pm #


Easy there Shingo…I have said from day one…you can call me a lot of things…Zionist is not one…nor is liar. Even when I am wrong (and I am seldom wrong)(thats a little dig…relax) I may be mistaken but I NEVER lie.

I suspect TRUTHDIG.com has like a 2 page post max. The 1st post that is showing is YOURS dated 28 Jan and it starts like this…

“Thanks for raising the report from Human rights watch Ed.”

So unles you are a DAMNED LIAR (you scumbag!!!) Ed (Harges) never posted any report from Human Rights Watch…or you are mistaken. Or mistaken AND a liar…which is it?

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By Shingo, February 3, 2009 at 4:41 pm Link to this comment

Vacemack and Sepharad,

With regard to the myth that Israel is exercising restraint, let’s hear what Israel’s own leaders have said.

“The Israeli army has always struck civilian populations, purposely and consciously. The army has never distinguished civilian from military targets, bu has purposely attacked civilian targets.”
zeev schiff Israel’s major military analyst

“There was a rational prospect, ultimately fulfilled, that affected populations, would exert pressure for the cessation of hostilities, satisfying Israel’s goals”
Former Israeli Ambassador Abba Eben

Commenting on a speech my Menachin Begin, Even went on to say Begin’s speech“presented a picture of an Israel wantonly inflicting every possible measure of death and anguish on civilian populations, in a move reminiscent of regimes which neither Mr Begin nor I would dare to mention by name”

This makes perfect sense.  In 2006, Israel were attacking the Lebanese population in the hope that the suffering of the civilians would force them to turn against Hezbollah.  The same with this attack on Gaza.

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By Shingo, February 3, 2009 at 4:36 pm Link to this comment

vancemack,

Of course you don’t care that Israel is blockading Gaza, because those on the receiving end are Arabs.  A blockade is an act of war and Israel has blockaded the place for 18 months.

When Israel was being blockaded in 1967 by Egypt, they used it as justification for war.  Of course, that is irrelevant, because we’re talking about Arabs here – not white people.

What so many Zionist apologists refuse to comprehend is the simple concept of cause and effect.  For you, history always begins from the moment Israelis are hurt.  What has been before is of no consequence.

Once again you demonstrate your adherence to rule Rule Rule #1: In the Middle East, it is always the Palestinians that attack first, and it’s always Israel who defends itself. The name of this is “retaliation”.

In your islamophbic mind, Israel is only responding to what the Palestinians have done.  The Palestinians are not allowed to respond because, well, they’re just not allowed to and when they do, it’s terrorism anyway.  And of course, when you make Israel’s case, you are free to include as many lies as you like.  Links are not necessary.  You can even lie about having posted links.  It doesn’t matter that Israel was NOT subjected to daily attacks that have NEVER stopped.  That’s the benefits of blind support for Israel - the truth is whatever you say it is and anyone who disagrees is an anti Semite.

If your country was attacked, would it not occur to you that there was a reason?  I’m sure the Germans in WWII thought they were being attacked in spite of sending V2 rockets into London. Germany had the right to defend itself right vancemack?

Tell me vancemack, if a blockade is an act of war, when if your country was being blockaded, do you have a right to respond…assuming of course, your country is not Arab Msulim.

Israel’s own spokesman has accepted that the siege on Gaza was not about rockets.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=N6e-elrgYL0

Let’s count the contradictions and the lies shall we?

Interviewer: Before November the 4th, there were no rocket attacks
Regev: And that’s correct. And this crisis started when Hamas threw out the cease-fire.
Interviewer: Surely this crisis started when Israel broke the ceasefire on the 4th of November.
Regev: I disagree strongly sir. Israel acted on the 4th of November defensively because there was a tunnel that was being dug designed…
Interviewer: There were no Israeli civilians being killed at that time.
Regev: Israel was acting to prevent Israeli civilians being killed.

So you see.  According to the Israeli spokesman, Hamas were not firing rockets and Israelis were not dying, so Israel bombed Gaza to prevent Israelis being killed.  And it was Hamas who threw out the ceasefire, because they retaliated after being attacked, so Israel had to retaliate against Hamas’ realiation. 

Makes perfect sense.

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By vancemack, February 3, 2009 at 4:34 pm Link to this comment

Cyrena…I have stated time and again that the argument is a very simple one. Now…lets be honest you and I…there are those on this site that simply hate Israel and deny MANY Palestinians and Muslims in general HATE Jews. There isnt a plan for peace…never will be because the people with the finger on the rockets have NEVER stopped launching attacks inot Israel and dont WANT peace…unless it be a non existent Jew controlled Israel.

So…at its very heart, this is about conquest…control of land. Right now Israel controls the land. Hell, every country in the world today has been defined by conquest. That being the case…Israel is there TODAY. And because of that they will fight to maintain control of the land that is their home. I dont think it gets any more complicated than that. If Spain was being pelted daily by its neighbors in Portugal do you not think they would respond? And if it happened daily, do you not think there would be war?

I would be all for a two state solution…but I would trade Gaza for an equal parcel of land next to the West Bank. If that were to happen would it be live and let live or do you think the attacks would CONTINUE?

And please…Dont talk to me of propoganda. I have no desire to prop up anyone. I would LOVE to see peace in the world and the middle east. Love the place…really I do…but I dont really have a desire to go back. Id love to see Iran find some sort of happiness…but honestly…do you think they are really looking for peace with that whack job as their president? Oh…wait…I know…thats just me spreading more propoganda. Thats not REALLY him on all those interviews calling for an end to Israel.

I DO NOT think this will have a peaceful ending. That being said…Israel as a sovereign nation ahs a right to defend itself. The day the Palestinians stop and I mean STOP launching rounds into Israel is the day there will be a legitimate shot at peace in the middle east. Until then…they will stop…reload…and go again. And again. And again. And again. And…...well…you get the point.

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By Sepharad, February 3, 2009 at 4:27 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Cyrena, Technically Amazon says it delivers here, just a matter of when the book is available and what bookstore it comes from. I will order the Keddie books for sure and will read both but am particularly interested at the moment in the one on Iran.  Although I detest Ahmadinejad and would like to see Hezbollah at the bottom of the Mediterranean Sea, our government’s lack of relations with Iran make no sense because the Iranian people are so different, so varied, and whatever the current politics are still Persians, a very old culture that still resonates there. At present I am very eager for any input I can get on the Iranian state of mind, because the Iranians I know in this country are uniformly hostile to the mullahs as well as Ahmadinejad’s posturing just as they were to Bush’s. And I don’t know anyone who still lives in Iran. So thanks for that reference.

Might borrow the Hajjar book from my daughter-in-law (another Hist-Conner grad)who bought it but is not impressed and may not finish it.

I would like to see “Iraq in Fragments.” Is it on DVD? (I opposed the war because I didn’t believe Bush, but must admit some of Ajami’s and Makiya’s pleas did make me feel selfish in not wishing to commit U.S. troops even for those motives. The current election outcome and subsequent developments may show that I was wrong in my blanket opposition but the human suffering has been so immense, both for American soldiers and the Iraqis,  that I don’t feel guilty—yet. My son-in-law felt we owed the Kurds and Shiia, and had nothing but good to say about the Iraqis he encountered in Anbar and their motives—his Arabic is good, which helped— though he felt and still feels that we chased the wrong bad guy at the wrong time in the wrong place for the wrong reasons.)

I have watched “Battle of Algiers” several times and own a copy.

Off topic: Was fascinated with Robert’s report of an “Absorption Ministry” campaign to get pro-Israel posters on blogs. The job of the Absorption Ministry used to be things like getting immigrants who didn’t speak Hebrew into the Ulpan, a school where you learn the language, the monetary system etc. In a free-marketplace-of-ideas way I think it’s a good idea for people who live in or know something about Israel to post because the anti-Israel material is pretty heavy and not always well-informed, but I do think such people should identify themselves as interested parties because like me—though I don’t actually live in Israel—they are. I don’t understand why being an Israeli or knowledgable on the subject would upset people so much. The line between propaganda and information is not that large. Besides, here I am hoping Obama will at least talk to the Iranians—not just Ahmadinejad of course; I don’t think he’s representative of Iranians—so we can maybe avoid another war. Does that make me a pro-nuclear-Hezbollah troll?

Also off topic: so far I’ve been disappointed with Obama’s financial dealings with the banks and their CEOs. I hope he is more of a populist in other areas.

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By Shingo, February 3, 2009 at 4:06 pm Link to this comment

At last Vancemack comes clean,

The problem you see, is that Israel didn’t kill enough Arabs in the first place.

Who cares that Israel enthically cleansed 700,000 arabs from their land.  That doesn’t given them a right to complain or fight back.

The genocide of the North American Indians was deserves because they just wouldn’t take no for an answer.

Vancemack, we owe you an applogy.  You are so mcuh more than just a racist, islamohphobe.  You’re actually a genocidal psycopath.

>> I posted 8 pages worth of links to 1 full year of rocket attacks from palestinian controlled lands into Israel.

Correction.  Make that a genocidal psycopath and a liar.

I just looked through all your posts and you made 1 post….to a youtube link.

>> The restraint is that there are still buildings there at all.

Spoken like a true genocidal psycopath.

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By cyrena, February 3, 2009 at 4:06 pm Link to this comment

I too have posted the obvious vaneck. The homemade rockets that have been indirectly responsible for the deaths of about 13 Israelis in the past 10 years wouldn’t have harmed any of them, (or even been shot) if the settlers weren’t on Palestinian territory, just like that illegal apartheid wall.

I’ll say it again. If they WEREN’T THERE on the living space belonging to someone else, they wouldn’t be hit by rockets or anything else.

That’s a no-brainer even for morons like you.

And yes, it’s all Bullshit Propaganda..the most important tool in the Zionists kit bag.

When Israels restrains and CONTAINS itself within the borders originally designated by the UN when we GAVE Palestine to the Zionists, then all will be well.

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By vancemack, February 3, 2009 at 3:48 pm Link to this comment

Curious…Ive said it here several times…I dont care WHAT country you are talking about…Israel…regardless…after the first two rocket attacks I would have ensured there wouldnt be a fourth because the third time I would have completely eliminated the threat. That Israel has engaged in 60 years of this back and forth exchange is to me ridiculous. It would have ended a LOOOOOONG time ago. I would have seen the Palestinians completely removed from Gaza, The West Bank and anywhere else where they persisted in launching attacks from. And dont bother with the “thats all propoganda” BS…I posted 8 pages worth of links to 1 full year of rocket attacks from palestinian controlled lands into Israel. The restraint is that there are still buildings there at all.

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By cyrena, February 3, 2009 at 2:06 pm Link to this comment

By vancemack, February 3 at 7:36 am #
“Just curious…if we were to take things from out of the realm of the Israel Palestine conflict…would it matter if I posted several THOUSAND links to non-Israel related stories about the rape, murder, mutilation of women and children around the world by terrorists that use their Muslim origins as an excuse or justification for their attrocities?”

~~~

Nope. It wouldn’t matter if you take this out of the realm of the Israel-Palestine conflict, because that’s what we’re talking about, and that 60-year old conflict (not unlike the same conflict that Israel has had with Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, and more) and it isn’t about religion. You just said so yourself. A FEW (a very few) use their so-called religion (be it Islam, Christianity, or Judaism) as the rationale behind their atrocities. Or, at least that’s what the propaganda has been created to convey, and you’re doing a good job of it.

But the rape and murder of women and children around the world is what it is: a terror tactic used by one group against the other – generally in cases of genocide – it’s almost always present in those cases. That’s what it is vaneck, and religion has nothing to do with that. It’s not religion involved in Darfur, nor was it in Rwanda, where both groups were Africans.

So no, you can’t take it out of the realm of Israel-Palestine, NOR can you or sheparad continue to conflate Islam with this 60-year old GRIEVANCE BASED conflict. Sheparad is living in some old past, in the crumbling remains of the Ottoman Empire, and just never has been able to catch-up. (at least not intellectually). She’s in her own little world, and apparently you’re lost in the same one. In fact, you guys are far more behind the times than even the current generation of Palestinians or Muslims in general.

It’s obvious that you all haven’t seen any of what comes from the youth of the Middle East these days, like their rap music, and their poetry, and their serious discussions about the politics of their lives and what it means for their futures.

There are feminist movements all over the Middle East, INCLUDING Iran. Women in the Occupied Territories wear the veil if they want, or if they don’t. Same with the burka and the hijab. I PERSONALLY KNOW Iranian women who are NOT ‘religious’, and they were the thing because that’s just what they wanna wear!! It’s THAT SIMPLE.
And YES, we already know that there are these fringe societies and separatist fundamentalists in ANY society, because there are hundreds of them right here in the good ol us of a, perpetrating these same atrocities against women and children and using the same so-called justification. I could give you a list. But again, it is totally irrelevant to the grievance based conflict in the Occupied Territories. You guys really need to quit using this as a red herring to deflect from the real cause of the conflict.

Sheparad,
Read this book.

?”Women in the Middle East? and ?Modern Iran”, authored by Nikki Keddie, professor emeritus of History, UCLA.

Then read this book

“Courting Conflict: The Israeli Military Court System in the West Bank and Gaza” authored by Lisa Hajjar, asst Prof. and Chair of the Department of Law and Society at UCSB.

Watch the film, “Iraq in Fragments”. It’s not the least bit political.

Then watch the oh so excellent film/documentary, “The Battle of Algiers”. 

Does Amazon deliver to your area of the New Mexican Desert?

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By curiouscdn, February 3, 2009 at 1:10 pm Link to this comment

...as for shingo, pardon the colloquialism, but you so rock!!!

Your posts are very educational.

Keep up the good work!

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By curiouscdn, February 3, 2009 at 1:01 pm Link to this comment

vancemack, you state:

“So you see…I think Israel is exercising restraint.”

Can you please explain what kind of restraint you’re referring to considering the US “loans” $6 billion annually to Israel, and they’ve killed 1,300 Palestinians in 22 days?

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By vancemack, February 3, 2009 at 11:00 am Link to this comment

Your link wont work so I’ll have to guess…

Allahu Akbar?

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By Sepharad, February 3, 2009 at 10:31 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re your summary. #1 is incomplete: the problem is largely religious: Gazan women do not want to wear burkas and give up dancing, makeup etc. Gazans have been beaten and had their shops wrecked for selling DVDs, the wrong kind of music, being open at the wrong time. The prohibition against infidels living on land ever inhabited by Moslems unless it’s under Islamic law is religious. Keeping Palestinians from resettling anywhere for several generations is not religious but Arab political policy. True: the settlers must leave the West Bank to the Palestinians, but not under Hamas because rocketing from the West Bank could shut down Israel’s only international airport. Re #2, Arab LEADERS of Palestine in the past have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity. The Israelis may to a limited extent may be undercutting Abbas by fighting Hamas, also Abbas’ enemy, but his main weakness is inheriting the reputation Fatah was given by Arafat, who diverted most of the money sent by the world to the Palestinians into his own pocket and spent by his wife Suha in Paris while Palestinian chidren went without.

“Where might strong leadership come from”? There are many able, educated Palestinians educated in Israeli universities as well as abroad, where education goes beyond the Koran and the maxim that “Jews are apes and pigs.”

I’ll look for the book on settlers you recommend. And you should look for any books written by Hezbollah and Hamas leadership.

I remember the Ajami quote you mention. As an Arab himself, he does not hold Arab society in high regard and indeed backed the Iraq war (which, if you recall, I opposed, though I understood his argument that given the education level—higher than in other Moslem countries excepting Turkey—a dictator-free Iraq with minority protections in place could become a societal model for other Arab nations. I don’t know how he overlooked the sectarian hostility Arab sects bear for one another.

Makiya saw his entire family wiped out as in hundreds of other Kurdish villages gassed by Saddam Hussein. Makiya was hardly a neocon, but accurately communicated conditions under which Iraqis not associated with the Baathist inner circle lived, the torture, the feared knock on the door at night, the disappearance of thousands. This may not have been enough to make the U.S. to go to war but does explain his ardent advocacy.

It’s quite odd that people professing concern for the Palestinians blithely ignore circumstances in which the Kurds and other persecuted minorities live and die in Syria, elsewhere in the Middle East and throughout much of the world. People who denounce Israel exclusively and constantly are either blind or hypocrites or anti-Semites. Vance Mack is right; Israelis remain more concerned with avoiding casualties than any other country would be regarding the lives of people used as shields by those who attack Israel.

If you have not read Amos Oz’s nonfiction, you can’t understand Israel fully. Not just “Help Us to Divorce” but also “In the Land of Israel.” His short stories also dissect weaknesses in Israel and among its peoples. The autobiography of Jerusalem-born Oz also speaks to Arab-and Jewish divisions. He fought for the state of Israel yet struggled with some of its policies all his life. His description of walking into East Jerusalem with a gun in the ‘67 war is something that you would revel in.

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tropicgirl's avatar

By tropicgirl, February 3, 2009 at 8:55 am Link to this comment

See what the the murders have to say for themselves:

http://tinyurl.com/ccqxyh

See the heartbreak of the young military murderers:

http://tinyurl.com/chqyby

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By vancemack, February 3, 2009 at 8:50 am Link to this comment

Oh…and lest I be accused of being anti Muslim…we are talking about a population of maybe…what…1.8 to 2 BILLION people…the extremists are the scourge…not all Muslims. But make no mistake…they (the extremists) are VERY real, very brutal, and dont give a damn about religion. Religion is simply their excuse.

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By vancemack, February 3, 2009 at 8:36 am Link to this comment

Just curious…if we were to take things from out of the realm of the Israel Palestine conflict…would it matter if I posted several THOUSAND links to non-Israel related stories about the rape, murder, mutilation of women and children around the world by terrorists that use their Muslim origins as an excuse or justification for their attrocities? Or would that convenient fact be another ‘Zionist’ lie? Do the Indian and Pakistani news sources also support Zionism? How about the Algerian news sources? Swedes? Danes? I mean…is the ONLY news source deemed ‘reliable’ by the ‘truth’ diggers (I cant tell you how funny it is that you people actually think you are truth seekers) Al Jazeera?

Just curious. It seems from the rabid anti Israel comme…ooops…missed an opportunity…from the rabid Jew hating bigot comments that all things Israel and Jew bad, ANYONE that cites muslim attrocities is a Zionist, and there are no muslim attacks…that Palestinians dont launch near daily rocket attacks on Israeli civilians…and that any report of muslim terrorism is a lie…

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By vancemack, February 3, 2009 at 8:09 am Link to this comment

Shingo…silly person…I have no idea what rules 1-5 are in the Zionist playbook. I suspect the only people that know what those rules are are those Jew hating bigots that see everyone that disagrees with them as a “Zionist.”

And once and for all…PLEASE get my position at least SOMEWHAT correct if you are going to cite then attack it. I have never once denied Israel was blockading anyone. Have you just COMPLETELY missed the fact that I have said n at least 3 occasions that I dont CARE that they are blockading them. In point of fact I have stated that i dont care WHAT country we are speaking of…Israel…Canada…France…If that country was under constant daily barrage (and OMG…do I HAVE to post the 8 pages of links to the daily attacks that have NEVER stopped??? And if I did would it matter? I doubt it because you ‘truth’ diggers couldn’t give a damn about the ‘truth’ if it doesn’t fit your convenient pathetic narrow little ideology)..

Where was I…

Oh yeas…

I DON’T CARE what country you are talking about. You must have missed my very mean, horrible, and terrible comment that after the first two times my country was attacked I would have ensured there wouldn’t be a fourth because one way or the other the third attack would have been the last. The land known as Gaza would still exist, but that’s about it. So you see…I think Israel is exercising restraint. Same goes for the West Bank. That’s not Zionism baby…that’s just the cold hard reality. I promise…this conflict would NOT have continued for 60 years. But that’s just me.

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By Shingo, February 3, 2009 at 3:15 am Link to this comment

Sepharad,

Your friend’s dreams sound rather ungrounded. Where does he suggest strong leadership would arise from? History has demonstrated that any such leader or leadership would be spurned by Israel, and demonized. They did it to Arafat. Consider the way they are playing Abbas against Hamas. They are seeking to isolate Abbas and weaken him so that he accepts somethign less than what the Palestinians are entitled to.

I would suggest you read read Lords of the Land (Idith Zertal, Akiva Eldar), ad excellent account of Israel’s Settlements in the Occupied Territories, and the withdrawl from Gaza.  It documents how from the moment Irael withdrew from Gaza, it sought to impose suffocating confitions on Gaza.  Since it’s withdrawl, Israel have controlled air, land and sea access to Gaza and increased this pressure as soon as Hamas were elected.  This was not something the Palestiains in Gaza asked for.

Israel have demonstarted time and time again, that they prefer expansion over peace.

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By Shingo, February 3, 2009 at 3:12 am Link to this comment

Sepharad ,

Ajami’s justification for war in Iraq makes no sense. Not ignoring the fact that Saddam was a monster, Iraq was the most secular of Arab states, where women enjoyed the most freedom. If Ajami was so anxious to free Arabs trapped in a religion-bound society, Iraq would have been the least likely place to begin.

Given the company he keeps, it’s safe to assume that Kanan Makiya is a neo-con, and Trotskyist, who has bought into he deranged fantasies of perpetual revolution.

It confounds me when I hear people discussing the Iraq invasion and subsequent war as though they were discussing a footbal game. Sure, the Kurds and Shiia had it bad, but we seem to be forgetting the fundamental reality that war absolutely must be the last option. The Geneva Conventions are very specific about this. A war of choice is an act of unnecessary aggression and a war cime.

The notion that that Saddam WMDs had been moved to Syria undetected by sattelite surveilance is laughable. Only the far right pundits like Sean Hannity dared to repeat such absurd claims in public.

Saddam did not pretend to have WMD. He (Iraq) submitted a 12,000 page document accounting for all their WMD to the UN, which to this day, remains the most accurate accounting of Iraq’s WMD programs. We know it was accurate because the US removed 8000 pages from it before allowing the rest of the UN to read it. Saddam’s own son in law, Hussein Kamal, told Washington that he had personally overseen the destruction of any remaining WMD. Cheney’s office truncated this testimony to assert that Kamel had seen WMD and omitted the part about how they were destroyed.

As for Arab leaders defining themselves, the only definition that matter is what they demonstrate through their policies and their actions. Hamas have not only signed the Arab League peace treaty (that advocates a 2 state solution as per 1967 borders and recognizes Israel) but in 2006, voiced their support for a 2 state solution. Israel has rejected both proposals.

During the recent truce, Hamas stuck to the ceasefire. The dozen or so rockets that were fired were launched by militants not associated with Hamas.  Israel’s intelligence agencies had to admit that Hamas were very careful to adhere to the ceasefire. Tzipi Livni argued that a prolonged ceasefire with Hamas would not be ideal for Israel because it would legitimize Hamas. The Siege was a cynical in the extreme. It had nothing to do with averting rocket attacks.

Not meaning to be rude, but it appears that the gist of your post is that a) the Israeli/Palestine conflict is a religious one and b) that the Arabs never pass up an opportunity to pass up an opportunity.

I am not familiar with the writings of Amos Oz, but there is no use pretending that we are talking about two equal partners in this conflict. Israel hold all the cards, so any suggestion that the road to peace is guaranteed if the Arabs undergo some reformation is fantasy. You are also mistaken if you believe this conflict is a religious one. This has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with land and justice. Robert Pape’s book, Dying to Win, compiles statistics of suicide bombings from 1980 through to 2006. It was partly funded by the Department of Defence. His findings concluded that 90% of all suicide bombings are directly attributable to territorial dispute, not religious differences.

The Palestinians desire to have their own state is no delusion, and furthermore, they have already given up a great deal.  The 80% Arafat was offered was 80% of the 22% that the Arabs are actually entitled to.  This mess began when Israel removed 700,000 Arbas forcefully from their land and was compounded when Israel seized the West Bank and Gaza.

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By cyrena, February 3, 2009 at 12:10 am Link to this comment

Just to counter yet more of sheparads propaganda, I’m sharing a post from another thread by brewerstroupe. The thing is, we simply have to keep putting the truth out there, to counter-act these lies of religious extremism attached to the Palestinian Arab Leadership. All of this Indiana Jones stuff is just for the Dark Ages.

~~~

By brewerstroupe, February 1 at 3:38 pm #

“One of the players to emerge way above the propaganda storm is the clearly focused Forward Thinking group. Founded by William Sieghart, it includes Sir Jeremy Greenstock, former British Ambassador to the U.N. and is working with Hamas towards a solution based on the British experience with Sinn Fein.

The following is a very worthwhile article from the group’s founder:

In the five years that I have been visiting Gaza and the West Bank, I have met hundreds of Hamas politicians and supporters. None of them has professed the goal of Islamising Palestinian society, Taleban-style. Hamas relies on secular voters too much to do that. People still listen to pop music, watch television and women still choose whether to wear the veil or not.

The political leadership of Hamas is probably the most highly qualified in the world. Boasting more than 500 PhDs in its ranks, the majority are middle-class professionals - doctors, dentists, scientists and engineers. Most of its leadership have been educated in our universities and harbour no ideological hatred towards the West. It is a grievance-based movement, dedicated to addressing the injustice done to its people. It has consistently offered a ten-year ceasefire to give breathing space to resolve a conflict that has continued for more than 60 years.

The Bush-Blair response to the Hamas victory in 2006 is the key to today’s horror. Instead of accepting the democratically elected Government, they funded an attempt to remove it by force; training and arming groups of Fatah fighters to unseat Hamas militarily and impose a new, unelected government on the Palestinians. Further, 45 Hamas MPs are still being held in Israeli jails.

Six months ago the Israeli Government agreed to an Egyptian- brokered ceasefire with Hamas. In return for a ceasefire, Israel agreed to open the crossing points and allow a free flow of essential supplies in and out of Gaza. The rocket barrages ended but the crossings never fully opened, and the people of Gaza began to starve. This crippling embargo was no reward for peace.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists /guest_contributors/article5420584.ece

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20090131_when_did_we_stop_caring_about_ciivilian_deaths_during_wartime/?ln

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By Sepharad, February 2, 2009 at 11:15 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Shingo,

Fouad Ajami wrote a lot: both “The Arab Predicament” and “The Dream Palace of the Arabs” are good. He did want the war, but only out of a sense of desperation that nothing would change for Arabs trapped in a religion-bound society without a terrific jolt from the West. Also, the case for war was eleoquently argued by Kurdish intellectual, Kanan Makiya’s. My son-in-law went to Iraq because he believed we we owed the Kurds and Shiia bigtime when, after Gulf War I, urging them to rise up against Saddam then leaving twisting in the wind. now bought into the reasons Bush was giving for going to war. Early on Sharon told Bush’s people that Saddam’s WMDs had long since been moved to Syria, but was under pressure and did not go public with his criticism. I suppose Saddam pretended he had WMDs to keep his enemies at bay. Even his generals thought he had WMDs. (My husband and I both opposed the war.)

All my books are at home, and I’m in the middle of the New Mexico desert until late February or March. When I get back I will give you the titles of the books: I don’t think that I’m stereoptyping; these are their leaders defining themselves. Another work besides the Koran crucial to Islam is the 8-volume Hadith—a user’s guide to the Koran, with Mohammed’s sayings and writings interpreted by a dozen or so of his disciples. There’s an even larger collection of writings on the history of Islam and its adherents by Ib’n Khaldun. Most of it has been translated into English, including his introductory volume, the Muqadhima, which is lengthy and informative. I have many more books by Arabs as well as others who’ve studied the history of the Arab people and Islam; will post later. My current focus historically has been on Al Andalus, before, during and after the Muslim conquest. I also have a large library on the Canaanites, Israelites, and archaeology and histories of Arabs and Jews, Palestinians and Israelis, as well as literature from both cultures from ancient to modern. (Arabs are better poets.) I’m working on two Andalus-related books, but the Arab-Jewish stories has been a lifelong interest in the commonalities and differences, because I’ve always believed there is a place for Israel in the region, Jews have always lived there despite the Roman’s best efforts, my family has been there since 1828, and it’s a good influence in the region if it isn’t wiped o, econoomically speaking. The Jewish culture and traditions are best preserved in the area where they began.

I respect the Palestinians, like the individuals I know (and stay in touch with) very much. There’s no more sensible way to resolve the issue than Amos Oz put forth in the tiny book “Help Us Divorce” (actually two addresses he made in Europe after receiving for the hundredth-plus time invitations from well-meaning Europeans to meet for coffee with his Palestinian opposite numbers so they could meet, understand one another and throw their arms around each others. He disabuses them of this fantasy then proposes a scenario for realistic peace. Oz, a founder of Peace Now, is also an atheist. He lives in a small desert town, Arad, that is quite pleasant but not all that modern, about half way between Masada and Be’er Sheva, not far from where a Bedouin friend of ours lives whom we recently visited. I gave a copy of Oz’s book to an Arab negotiator in the West Bank. A few days later he said he was glad to have it, and would pursue those lines but that it would come down to whether there was strong leadership—a Palestinian leader who could stand up to the religious militants and protect the people’s future. (Oz proposed a Palestine with its own professional army and police force because without being able to defend oneself one could hardly have a durable state. I agree.)

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By Shingo, February 2, 2009 at 7:54 pm Link to this comment

Oh and BTW Sepharad,

Your recommendation about Fouad Ajami is rather surprising.  Not only was he a vocal supporter of the Iraq war, but to this day still defends this insane adventure as a noble act.

In fact, is was he who stated that after the liberation, the street of Baghdad were “sure to erupt in joy in the same way the throngs in Kabul greeted the Americans.’”

He certainyl hold the Arab world in high regard writign this:

“America ought to be able to live with this distrust and discount a good deal of this anti-Americanism as the “road rage” of a thwarted Arab world—the congenital condition of a culture yet to take full responsibility for its self-inflicted wounds. There is no need to pay excessive deference to the political pieties and givens of the region. Indeed, this is one of those settings where a reforming foreign power’s simpler guidelines offer a better way than the region’s age-old prohibitions and defects.”

If this is any indication of your recommended reading material, it reveals a great deal about you.

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By Shingo, February 2, 2009 at 7:48 pm Link to this comment

Sepharad,

I have no doubt that you and your husband share the same idea of what constitutes free speech, but that it hardly evidence of moderation.  Two extremists sitting at a bar would never regard each other as being out of the mainstream.

Similarly, while your description being pro-Israel and pro-second Palestinian state, may also sound moderate, this notion itself is subject to significant distortion and does not in itself reflect on your grasp of justice, international law or human rights.

Referring to obscure white papers as evidence to support your position is a pitiful attempt at obfuscation.  Your reference to “Arab Islamists” is so vague it is embarrassing.  In fact, it suggests woeful ignorance on your part.  One group of the“Arab Islamists” you refer to would not be in Palestine today were it not for Israel’s support and financial aid. 

When Israel had the opportunity to negotiate with the Arab moderates, they sought to introduce an Islamist movement into Palestine to weaken the PLO.

I have little doubt that you believe your perspective is fine.  Charles Manson probably holds the same view of his . As for your grasp of middle eastern history, you have already demonstrated it is sadly lacking and shall we say, selective?

Your understanding oh Hezbollah and Hamas is superficial and based on stereotypes.  To imply that you somehow understand how they see themselves if laughable.

Israel is the antithesis to democracy.  It is nothing more than a theocracy posing as one.  The notion of a Jewish state that delineates the rights of it’s citizens based on their religious identity is the antithesis of democracy.

I do agree however, with your assessment of Sharon and Netanyahu, but to be perfectly frank, the scope available for Livni or Barak is limited.  Livni has been force to move further to the right just to maintain political relevance.  She recently stated during an interview that the Israeli Arabs would have to accept a political future outside of Israel.

In any case, indications look that Livni and Barak are out of the runnig.  Lerbarman’s support is growing, so Israel is moving further to the right.

I can respect that you would continue to support Israel regardless of who is in power, and so you should, but irrespective of who leads, a reality check on what comprises the status quo in Israeli politics is in order.  Israel and UN policy has been entirely at odds with what they would have us believe.  Since 1976, the US has vetoed resolution’s calling for a 2 state solution, while pretending to champion this very policy.

Last December, the US and Israel voted against a UN resolution granting the the right of Palestinians to self determination. You mentioned your support for a 2 state solution, which on the surface, sounds commendable, but I would be curious to know what interpretation you would advocate.  As you know, the last time that Israel were negotiating a settlement, they refused to accept the notion of allowing the Palestinians the right to controlling their own security.

David Horowitz is among those who remain convinced that our institutions have become infiltrated by terrorist sympathizers.  He is a a full time propagandistic who spends a great deal of energy patronizing Arabs and Muslims.

When 100,000 people demonstrated in Washington against the Iraq war, he asserted that every participant was a follower of Zarqawi.  I would an example of how he is sometimes right?

As for Pipes, I would hardly describe him as Chomsky’s equal, or one deserving of the title of Chomsky’s opposite.  Pipes is an islamophobic, Zionist ideologue who, aside from being a serial liar, has launched a campaign to persecute academics who disagree with him.  Chomsky, who could never be described as anti-Jewish, would never waste the energy trying to silence his opponents.

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By Sepharad, February 2, 2009 at 5:56 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Shingo—My Mario Savio-like anti-war-school husband’s idea of free expression is pretty much like mine which is why we get along so well despite differing opinions on a wide variety of topics. (He has, however, always been pro-Israel and pro-second Palestinian state, as I have, and believes the Arab Islamists are only preventing the secular Arab moderates from setting up a decent society, as I do, and there are several huge UN white papers by secular Arabs who’ve reached the same conclusion, not to mention Fouad Ajami’s books which you should read if you haven’t). We both understand that free expression encompasses the expression of ideas, free speech, free market place of ideas, freedom of information, open meetings, open trials, the declassification of material that is not vital to the national security—an absurd amount, roughly 80% of all material, is unjustifiably classified. And that’s just us: the Brits, the Euros, the Russians, the Chinese, all make our classification look positively open. Free expression also takes the general ACLU line, as well as a belief in the protection of individual privacy. I could go on. If you need a definition of free expression you probably can’t comprehend all the interlocking elements it entails.

I think my perspective is fine, my grasp of middle eastern history is solid, deep, and nuanced—not just re Arabs & Israelis—and I don’t think you really know what you’re talking about. Your descriptions of Hezbollah and Hamas aren’t even close to the way they are and the way THEY see themselves. Israel is a democracy facing a major challenge by orthodox religious attempting to let the religious decide who a Jew is, who will and won’t serve in the IDF, and they’ve been slapped down badly—first and hardest by atheist Ariel Sharon. Netanyahu would be bad for Israel, bad for the Palestinians, bad for everyone because he combines a volatile temperament along with a right-wing outlook and the respect of the religious. I truly hope that Livni and Barak defeat him in the election, that enough Israelis aren’t so despondent about peace that they turn to big daddy Netanyahu to save him from the lunatic Arab fringe and their rockets and their sponsors’ threats. But if Netanyahu by some horrible chance should be reelected, I and my family will still be pro-Israel and still fully support Peace Now and still favor attempts to reach a second-state solution.

You mentioned Daniel Pipes—not someone I agree with, not someone whose influence is good for Israel in the long run, sort of like Bush. David Horowitz is sometimes right, sometimes wrong; he’s not the first and won’t be the last disillusioned left-winger to make a hard-right turn and end up being sometimes confused. I don’t put him in the same category as Pipes and others of that ilk. Pipes is on one extreme of Jewish thought, Chomsky his opposite number.

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By Shingo, February 2, 2009 at 4:26 pm Link to this comment

Sepharad,

You haven’t got a clue what you are talking about.  Don’t confuse hyperbole with what is in the record.

The “Arabs”, as you put it, signed a truce 6 years ago, offering to recognise Israel as per the 1967 borders and normalise relations with Israel.  Hamas also endorsed this offer.

Iran and Hezbollah have stated that they will support of the Palestinians people. who overwhelmingly support a 2 state solution.

1) Hebollah si a nationalistic movement that coexists with half a dozen other religions in Lebanon.  Hamas are also largely nationalistic, with an Islamic bent.

Your hyperbole regarding an Islamic caliphate had been entirely debunked.

2) Israel is a theocracy, much like the religious Moslem elites you are referring to , so it can hardly be described as a role model.  In fact, Israel’s presence, and extremism, plays into the hands of the religious Moslem elites by providing a common enemy by which the religious Moslem elites can control he masses.

Also, I not the last bit interested in politically correct attitudes or platitudes re Palestinians.  Your delusional notion that anything Arab rules in the PC capitals, is undermined by the fact that academics like Juan Cole and Norman Finkelstein are routinely denied tenure at these institutions on the ground that their opinions are considered “controversial”, while never disputed.

I suspect it would be very revealing to learn what your husband’s idea of free speech involves and how he feels about the witch hunts on academics being authored by right wing Zionsit as like Daniel Pipes and David Horotwitz.

Perhaps you and he might find that brushing up on history and reality 101 might encounter a fresh new perspective.

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By Ctos, February 2, 2009 at 3:48 pm Link to this comment

“In all my years of political give and take, I have never come across a more tendentious and distasteful demonstration of faux debate as found on this thread.”

read as “I’ve figured out that my blatant Israeli propaganda is not going to fly in a forum whose members are educated and humane so I will slither back under the rock I came out from”

Marilyn, we are laughing AT YOU not with you.

ROTFLMAO!

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By Nozferatu, February 2, 2009 at 3:29 pm Link to this comment

Al-Shahin:

Chances are he’ll be burned to death by illegal white phosphorous first….

Whoops..did I say illegal? I meant completely justified…what was I thinking?

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By Sepharad, February 2, 2009 at 11:38 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Marilyn—I hope you haven’t vanished completely and will read this. Maybe vance mack will, and understand this site better.

You are in fact correct when you say that if everyone who supports the Israeli position suddenly grows silent, many of the professional (well, not so professional; make that ideologically corseted and probably socially nonproductive) propagandists as to who is most righteously leftwing or pro-white red-blooded America will turn on each other. They do, in fact. There is zero tolerance for independent thought here.

You would have enjoyed reading the threads re Obama during the primaries and the election and, to some extent, even now, e.g. cyrena under attack for her unbending unyielding personal crush on and support for Obama. Though I originally favored Kucinich then
Edwards then finally Hillary, when Obama took the primary I got behind him, even though unlike cyrena I did not think he walked on water. Many
truthdiggers went after her so viciously (as they will when people are not in complete agreement with their strage ideas of reality) that I thought perhaps it would shock her into rejection of the lockstep pack mentality of this site. Instead, she only became more of an ideologue than before, perhaps trying to insinuate her way back into the good graces of the pack. Yes, this is a particularly icky disgusting characteristic of Truthdig, but even more reason to continue trying to inject some reality and sanity into the debate as there are a handful of truly inquiring minds also here, and they make it worthwhile.

Shingo—vance mack IS speaking truth when he says the Arabs and the lapsed Persians of the mullah persuasion ARE single-mindedly and irrationally out to destroy Israel at all costs. The thing is that in THEIR minds it is NOT irrational. 1) For the hyper-religious, like the bin Laden, Hamas and Hezbollah Islamic amen corner—and yes, unlike the variously opinionated Jews they definitely have one—no one living on land that at sometime in the past has been part of the caliphate can be anything but a Moslem or second-class citizen or dead. Period. A Jewish state is by nature not a Moslem theocracy and therefore must be eliminated. 2) For the less religious Moslem elites, they cannot have a state of any kind anywhere near them in which the wealth is not exclusive to the top echelons: economically and democratically speaking, Israel is a dangerous role model for the region.   

Also, Shingo, your list of politically correct attitudes re Palestinians and Isralies is topsy-turvy: Anything Arab rules in the PC capitals such as Berkelely, CA, the London Review of Books, and in all the History of Consciousness departments in various universities. When our kids were still under the influence, my husband (a leader in the Berkeley free speech movement when it still meant exactly that) diagnosed the Hist-Con PC syndrome as “Maoists with tenure, not truly revolutionary”—but thankfully they all outgrew it, are no longer blinkered ideologues, and discussions with them are still contentious but also rational, fun, and often we learn from them, other times vice-versa. At its best, that is what Truthdig can be.

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By Al-Shahin, February 2, 2009 at 6:51 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Wait until one of these “self-made” rockets lands in Chris Hedges’ lap. I wonder how he would react.

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By Robert, January 31, 2009 at 7:28 pm Link to this comment

Gaza Invasion: Powered By The U.S.

Taxpayers are spending over $1 billion to send refined fuel to the Israeli military—at a time when Israel doesn’t need it and America does.

By Robert Bryce

Editor’s note: Generous support for this article was provided by the Investigative Fund at the Nation Institute.

January 31, 2009 “Salon” Jan. 16, 2009—- Israel’s current air and ground assault on the Gaza Strip has left about 1,000 Palestinians dead, including 400 women and children. Several thousand people have been wounded and dozens of buildings have been destroyed. An estimated 90,000 Gazans have abandoned their homes. Israel’s campaign in Gaza, which began more than two weeks ago, has been denounced by the Red Cross, multiple Arab and European countries, and agencies from the United Nations. Demonstrations in Pakistan and elsewhere have been held to denounce America’s support for Israel.

It’s well known that the U.S. supplies the Israelis with much of their military hardware. Over the past few decades, the U.S. has provided about $53 billion in military aid to Israel. What’s not well known is that since 2004, U.S. taxpayers have paid to supply over 500 million gallons of refined oil products—worth about $1.1 billion –- to the Israeli military. While a handful of countries get motor fuel from the U.S., they receive only a fraction of the fuel that Israel does—fuel now being used by Israeli fighter jets, helicopters and tanks to battle Hamas.

According to documents obtained under the Freedom of Information Act, between 2004 and 2007 the U.S. Defense Department gave $818 million worth of fuel to the Israeli military. The total amount was 479 million gallons, the equivalent of about 66 gallons per Israeli citizen. In 2008, an additional $280 million in fuel was given to the Israeli military, again at U.S. taxpayers’ expense. The U.S. has even paid the cost of shipping the fuel from U.S. refineries to ports in Israel.

In 2008, the fuel shipped to Israel from U.S. refineries accounted for 2 percent of Israel’s $13.3 billion defense budget. Publicly available data shows that about 2 percent of the U.S. Defense Department’s budget is also spent on oil. A senior analyst at the Pentagon, who requested anonymity because he is not authorized to speak to the press, says the Israel Defense Force’s fuel use is most likely similar to that of the U.S. Defense Department. In other words, the Israeli military is spending about the same percentage of its defense budget on oil as the U.S. is. Therefore it’s possible that the U.S. is providing most, or perhaps even all, of the Israeli military’s fuel needs.

What’s more, Israel does not need the U.S. handout. Its own recently privatized refineries, located at Haifa and Ashdod, could supply all of the fuel needed by the Israeli military. Those same refineries are now producing and selling jet fuel and other refined products on the open market. But rather than purchase lower-cost jet fuel from its own refineries, the Israeli military is using U.S. taxpayer money to buy and ship large quantities of fuel from U.S. refineries.”

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21868.htm

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By Shingo, January 31, 2009 at 5:07 pm Link to this comment

vancemack,

You’d have much more luck making your point if you based your argument on reality, rather than false pro-Israeli propaghanda and sterotypes.  Your insistance that Israel is somehow under attack, while ignoring that Israel has been atatcking and blockading Gaza since 2005 just goes to prove how blinkered you are.

If your’re not a Zionist, then you sure are a quick learner.  You did an outstanding job of deploying of rules 1 through 5.

You can;t have it both ways.  Perhaps you are sincere when you say you have no problems with Muslims, but you can;‘t expect a free pass when you revert to sterotypes to dismiss their grievances as being irrationally motivated by a desire to destroy Israel.

It doesn’t require cherry picking to pick holes in your argument when they are the sie of a water mellonn

So yeah, I might have scored BIG - though you made it pretty easy for me.

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By KDelphi, January 31, 2009 at 4:44 pm Link to this comment

sacred cow—I watched what YOU are watching right now.(I posted a link, somewhere—to Israel Project) His belicose manner was only surpassed by his BS—-“IDF tries not to attack civilians, and that is a FACT”. That statement cannot be a fact.

It says, “try”.

He says that , if US troops did the same thing, “we” would support it.

I would not, and, do not.

He does this over and over again overpowering the moderator (who did nothing) and the callers. I felt like I was stuck listening to a Zionist again—except i was merely transfixed…

Lanny Davis acts like he’s lost it, to me.

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By vancemack, January 31, 2009 at 3:40 pm Link to this comment

Shingo…you miss my point completely. I dont CARE about the religion aspect. Jew, Muslim…I couldnt not care less. If a country, any country faced daily attack they SHOULD do something to effect change.

Your rantings about my feelings towards Muslims completely ignores the facts. I dont lump them together one at all. I dare say I have at least as much personal experience with Muslims throughout the world as anyone here and have no problem with Muslims. Ive said as much. But then…you just want to cherry pick to make points so…

eewwww…nice one! You scored BIG…Way to go!!!

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By Shingo, January 31, 2009 at 2:49 pm Link to this comment

>> Why are most nations afraid to stand up to Israeli aggression (maybe even the US)?

It no secret.  What are they going to do?  Go to war with Israel?  There is no international law enforcer or police force to punich nations that break the law.  The UN is the closest thing to it and as we know, Israel has a man on the inside.

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By sacred cow, January 31, 2009 at 1:58 pm Link to this comment

I have a question for all of you (I’m sitting here watching C-Span “Gaza and Middle East Peace”). Why do you think the international community tolerates Israel’s human rights violations, war crimes, etc.? I am looking for something more than the usual excuses - explanations other than ideas like “holocaust guilt” (I understand that this us used by the zionist propaganda machine - as Lillienthal says “the name of the game is to keep Hitler and his gang alive”) but attribute to it minimal effect in the halls of power. I want something more than the implacable support of the United States - I understand the power of the Israel lobby. Why are most nations afraid to stand up to Israeli aggression (maybe even the US)?

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By Nozferatu, January 31, 2009 at 1:28 pm Link to this comment

Marylin,

There isn’t much to reason with from the Israeli side.

People here have bombarded you with facts.  You choose to not listen or ignore them.

So what is it that you want to say exactly that will bolster what Israel is doing?

If you have evidence and facts that repudiate the use of “white phosphorous”, illegal cluster bombing, denying of UN and Redcross personnel to move in and save the dying, let us know…we’re all ears.

Until then, stop spewing your drivel that is going no where fast.

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By PatrickHenry, January 31, 2009 at 1:24 pm Link to this comment

By vancemack, January 31 at 12:27 am #

“Israel then is in a fight for its existence”.

That one sentence in your post gives it away.

By Shingo, January 31 at 1:55 am #

Well put.

Direct and truthful.

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By Nozferatu, January 31, 2009 at 1:22 pm Link to this comment

Vancemack,

I don’t have a hatred for jews…but if you wish to pump that BS to gain sympathy, go ahead.

What I’m disappointed in is bankrupt human beings like you.

Have a nice day and relax too:)

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By Shingo, January 31, 2009 at 2:55 am Link to this comment

Political Correctness - Rules of Democracy (Author unknown)

Rule #1: In the Middle East, it is always the Palestinians that attack first, and it’s always Israel who defends itself. The name of this is “retaliation”.

Rule #2: The Palestinians are not allowed to kill Israelis. The name of this is “terrorism”.

Rule #3: Israel has the right to kill Palestinian civilians; the name of this is “self-defense” or “collateral damage”.

Rule #4: When Israel kills too many Palestinian civilians, the Western world calls for restraint. This is called the “reaction of the international community”.

Rule #5: Palestinians do not have the right to capture Israeli military, not even 1 or 2.

Rule #6: Israel has the right to capture as many Palestinians as they want (around 10,000 to date being held without trial). There is no limit; there is no need for proof of guilt or a trial. All that is needed is the magic word: “terrorism”.

Rule #7: When you say “Hamas”, always be sure to add “supported by Hezbollah, Syria and Iran”.

Rule #8: When you say “Israel”, never say “supported by the USA, the UK, European countries and even some Arab regimes”, for people (God forbid) might believe this is not an equal conflict.

Rule #9: When it comes to Israel, don’t mention the words “occupied territories”, “UN resolutions”, “Geneva Conventions”. This could distress the audience of Fox, CNN, etc.

Rule # 10: The Palestinians are always “cowards” who hide behind a civilian population that “they don’t care about”. If they (militants) sleep in houses with their families, the name of this is: “cowardice”. Israel has the right to annihilate the towns where they sleep using bombs and missiles. The name of this is “high precision surgical action”.

Rule #11: Israelis speak better English than Arabs. This is why we let them speak out as much as possible, so that they can explain rules 1 through 9. The name of this is “neutral journalism”.

Rule #12: If you don’t agree with these rules or if you favor the Palestinian side over the Israeli side, you must be a very dangerous anti-Semite. You may even have to make a public apology if you express your honest opinion.

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By Shingo, January 31, 2009 at 2:54 am Link to this comment

vancemack,

You can’t expect to be taken seriously when you demonstrate such a weak grasp of reality.

It takes a unique mindset to regard the death of 400 Palestinian children as a worthy price to pay for the incinvenience the public of Sdrerot are experiencing.  If if walks like a duck, looks like a duck, it’s not judgement. A human being would have to be mentally derranged, a rascist biggot or a Zionist (a racist ideology) to hold such a belief.

You expose your own biggorty by asserting that “extremists” are just commiting suicide for the hell of it.  Even if you believe in 72 virgins in heaven, no one wants to die.  If these people had the option of saddling into an F-16 cockpit and dropping bombs on their victims from a safe distance, it’s a safe bet that they would lose the suicide vest.

Your ignorance is also highlighted by the fact that suicide attacks have almost nothing to do with religion.  Robert Pape conducted a study, funded by the DOD, that found that 90-95% of all suicide bombing attacks were related not to religion, but to territorial disputes.  The original suicie bombers were not Muslims, but the Tamil Tigers.

You mention the slaughter of families in Tibet, but noticelbly omit the slaughter of families in Isral or Iraq by the West.  Those doesn’t count, coz we know that the US and Israel use surgical strikes…cough.

You then assert that the Palestinians have bombed Israel non-stop for decade.  Not only is it false but funnily enough, you never posted any links.  It also assumes that the Palestinians always start the it, while ignoring that Israel are firing back and with much greater devastation and frequency.

For example, June 2005-June 2006, 500 rockets were fired from the territories, while Israel responded with 2000 shells.

It’s not a lie that Palestinians embraced the cease fire. Israel’s spokesman, Mark Regev, admitted there were no rockets being fired by Hamas during the ceasfire.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=N6e-elrgYL0

Israel’s own MFA report conceded that Hamas was ‘careful’ to maintain the cease-fire.. In 2003, Hams undertook a unilateral ceafire throughout the summer, even while Israel were kindapping and murdering Hamas leaders.

It’s a carnard to even suggest Israel overreacted, becasue they didn’t react at all, but instigated the latest conflict by brealing the ceaefire 7 times.  The evidence is undisputable.  Israel wanted this fight for several reasons, which we have covered already.

Your biggotry toward Muslims is further higlighted by your lumping of Syria, Lebanon, and Iran into some mindless collective that uniformly want to destroy Israel.  This is demonsatrbly false.  how can a country like syria, who ar e scared to death of Israel, be demanding it’s destruction? Iran has never said they wanted to destroy Israel (that lie was debunked long ago).

You confuse Lebanon with Hezbollah, but even Hezbollah have no desire to destoy Israel, short of exacting revenege for Israel’s 18 year occupation (1982-2000), the muder of 18,000 Lebaense, then the murder of a further 1,300 in 2006.

Iran made an offer in 2003 to recognise Israel and normalise relations with them.  Washington rejected the offer.

Israel does not need to fight for its existence.  No Aarab country is remotely capable of thretening it. What Israel is pursuing, is the policy of keeping the Arab states in a state of fear by intimidating them.

Israel has always pretended it hasn’t had a partner for peAce, even when it did.  It perpetuated that myth in the days of Arafat, when the PLO recognized Israel.  Israel’s greatest fear is having a partner for peace, becasue it would have to make good on it’s promise to return the West Bank, which it was never prepared to do.

Like I said vancemack, it always helps when you have a modicum of knowledge. Unless of course, you really are a Zionist, and know all this stuff, but pretend not to.

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By vancemack, January 31, 2009 at 1:27 am Link to this comment

Noz…I entered this discussion addressing individuals and countering points from the article with statements backed by facts. Not once did I call anyone an anti-semite. However EVERYONE that posts a comment here that isn’t blindly opposed to Israel is called a Zionist and worse. Now…me…I could really not give a rats damn about the name calling. Call me a Zionist I’ll just laugh at you. Im a lot of things…and trust me…Ive been called a LOT worse and deserved at least some of those comments.

I decided to join in the fun. Since the MO of the “THIS IS TRUTHDIG!!!” mindless Ssssthparticans seems to be to insult everyone they disagree with, I simply decided to return the favor. Call me a Zionist. Great! And I’ll call you a bigoted, hate filled Jew hating godless evil bastard. and then we can get on with the discussion.

Interesting…How many times is the Zionist label flipped about here? Isn’t that judgment? Isn’t that name calling? Do you REALLY think you know ANYONE here well enough to bandy about labels?

Me…never been to Israel, dont really care to go. I suppose I know a few Jews…but couldnt point them out. Couldnt point out the Jehovahs Witnesses either. I CAN tell you their golf handicap or waht their favorite fishing fly is. I HAVE been to a dozen or so Arab countries and spent many a night around the huka drinking tea with merchants and princes from Egypt, Lebanaon, India, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Turley, UAE, Qatar, Bahrain, Iraq, Iran, and Kuwait. I think I actually have a pretty fair understanding of many of the Arabs and I have nothing against any of them. Not really fond of the extremists that will use Allah as justification for wrapping primer chord around the necks of children and detonate it, or rape and behead 12-13 year old girls in India, or slaughter families in Tibet in some of the most horrible and disgusting ways imaginable. Oh…I know…propaganda…right? Right. Sure it is. Ive cleaned up my share of the ‘propaganda,’ thanks (And for the record I dont cotton to folks in America that use God as their reason to hate either. And we all know that happens too). But that isn’t an indictment of Arabs or Muslims. That Palestinians have bombed Israel non-stop for decades is also undeniable (Ive posted evidential links…but go ahead…repeat the lie that Palestinians embraced the cease fire). Does that make ALL Palestinians murderous? No…but a LOT of them? Hell yeah.

Ive also said that do I think Israel overreacted…hell no. Ive stated pretty plainly that if it was me I would have responded proportionally the first or maybe the second time. I PROMISE…there wouldnt be a fourth time, because after the third the problem would be resolved permanent like. Feel free to call me an appropriate name there…it will sting…but I promise…I’ll get over it.

Id LOVE to see peace in the middle east. I’d love to never have to fight another war. I dont believe it will ever happen. Syria, Lebanon, and Iran are too invested in Israels ultimate destruction and I dont believe there will EVER be a lasting peace there, just like I dont believe there will ever be an end to racism in America. Too many people make money off it.

That being said, Israel then is in a fight for its existence. If you have a partner in peace you can achieve peace. Until then…well…we have what we have.

I’ll take the “THIS IS TRUTHDIG!!!” Sssttthparticans seriously the second they are as critical of the Palestinian murderers as they are of the Israeli murderers.

In the meantime…pray for forgiveness for your hatred and bigotry against the Jews. wink Yes…that’s a joke…relax…

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By cyrena, January 30, 2009 at 10:43 pm Link to this comment

By Rajan, January 27 at 9:08 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

Barack Obama has exhibited his absolute incompetence and lack of perception in his foreign policy initiatives by appointing his own Middle East envoy, George Mitchell – an act which promptly undermines the status of Tony Blair who is already officiating as the Middle East mediator on behalf of the world community.

~~~~~

WRONG Rajan. Tony Blair is NOT the Middle East mediator on behalf of the WORLD community. That person is Richard Falk, elected unanimously by the UN to the position last March. Tony Blair is a non-entity.


http://www.democracynow.org/2008/12/16/headlines

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/17/richard-falk-un-rights-en_n_151772.html

http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/Voices.php/2008/12/17/un-human-rights-envoy-richard-falk-on-th

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1047203.html

Meantime, that is the WORLD Community rep for human rights, and it only makes all the sense in the world that Obama would immediately appoint a special mediator to represent the US. The US and Tony Blair are the reason these crimes by Israel have gone unchecked for so long. Blair hasn’t been to the Middle East since he got that little phony and meaningless title.

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By Shingo, January 30, 2009 at 7:42 pm Link to this comment

Oh the outrage Marilyn,

Where has the humanity and respect gone?

Funny how you should accuse otehrs fo faux debate when you have admitted you are not preapred to answer anyone’s rebutable to your propaghanda?

You yourself stoke fires, then complain and pretend to be shocked when other posters respond accordingly. You are the one setting the tone.  Here you are, justifying the slaughter of innocents (including 400 chidlren) while pretending to be concerned for the welfare of 2 or 3 politcial activitsts who happen to stil be alove and well.

There is ample representation of the Israeli point of view. Just turn to CNN, CBS, FOX, BBC and MSNBC and you will be inundated with ISrael’s point of view. 

>> The ratio continues to dwindle when reason is introduced to the argument.

Exactly.  When reason is introduced into the argument, Israli prpaghandists tend to leave.  That’s what happens when you run out of lies and talking points.

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Robert's avatar

By Robert, January 30, 2009 at 6:12 pm Link to this comment

By Marilyn A.F., January 30 at 4:12 pm #

“In all my years of political give and take, I have never come across a more tendentious and distasteful demonstration of faux debate as found on this thread.”

*****************

Hey Marilyn…

HOW IS THAT ISRAEL’S “INTERNET MEGAPHOHNE” WORKING FROM YOUR SIDE OF THE SPECTRUM?

DOES IS IT NOTIFY & DIRECT YOU WHERE TO GO AND START POSTING PRO-ISRAEL & ANTI-ARABS/MOSLEM PROPAGANDA?

You are NOT fooling anyone here on TD. We have seen your kind way too many times.

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By Robert, January 30, 2009 at 6:01 pm Link to this comment

By cyrena, January 30 at 1:21 pm #

RE:By Robert, January 30 at 7:03 am #

Pro-Israel media: Bloggers join media war

“Robert, An ABSORPTION Ministry!!! Holy Shit!! This beats ANYTHING the Nazi Propaganda Ministry could EVER come up with.

But, you KNOW I believe it. We’ve been seeing these trolls all over the internet and blogging sites since they’ve been in existence.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

cyrena…you are right they are all over the place & we have had our share of them on TD. I am sure that we currently have some right now where you & I have exchanged comments with them.

On this thread there are several and from the other thread, I think that OzarkMichael is one & perhaps sepharad.

Have you noticed that Marilyn A.F. who is posting on this thread is along the same line/topic that OzarkMichael is also posting (see below). Is it the same poster under a different name or are they from the same route source?.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

By Marilyn A.F., January 30 at 6:30 am #

“So I will try again to link you to the Geert Wilders film. He translates the Koran and uses pictures to illustrate brutal Muslim jihad.  (Maybe this has already been posted; but I have no knowledge of it.)”

**********

Anyway cyrena, keep your head up & I’ll do my best to help expose Israel & zionism’s propagandists.

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By Marilyn A.F., January 30, 2009 at 5:12 pm Link to this comment

In all my years of political give and take, I have never come across a more tendentious and distasteful demonstration of faux debate as found on this thread.

I know the Palestinian/Israeli issue is volatile. But talk is necessary as I feel the Middle East is pivotal in a future we will create together. Posts rather mirror the tone and timbre of the left fringe and their compatriots, the Muslim jihadists.

If you will notice, there is sparce representation of the Israeli point of view. The ratio continues to dwindle when reason is introduced to the argument.
If you must cheat to win, you are a loser.

We are definitely known by the company we keep. And personally, I would not care to consort with most bloggers commenting here if their words are any indication of a mindset.  Therefore, I will simply not respond-in-kind.

It has been my experience that if you withdraw from the food fight, those left will devour one another out of sheer frustration on where to vent their spleen.  Have at it, ladies and gentlemen.  I use those terms generically.  May or may not apply.

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By tropicgirl, January 30, 2009 at 3:59 pm Link to this comment

I’ve heard that expressed before. The reasoning is that since many Palestinians are also Semites, its an anti-Semitism, by Semites, against what they consider a lower or inferior Semite.

There is also a term that has been used since Roman times, according to a book I am reading about the Middle Ages, called “self-loathing Jews”. This label is used by Zionist Jews toward other Jews who stick up for others civil rights, are against Zionism, cheating people and so on. Self loathing Jews (good Jews) are also called “Post-Zionists”.

from Wikipedia:
“Self-loathing Jew” is used synonymously with “self-hating Jew”. “Self-hating Jew” has also been compared to the term “Uncle Tom” as used in the African-American community. The term “auto-antisemitism”  is also used in Hebrew synonymously, and is a charge levied against Post-Zionists and the New Historians by columnists Michael Hendelsaltz and Alon Dahan.

Post-Zionism refers to the opinions of some Israeli, diaspora Jews and others, particularly in academia, that Zionism has fulfilled its ideological mission with the creation of modern State of Israel in 1948 and that Zionist ideology should therefore be considered to be at an end. The term is also used by right-wing Jews to refer to the left-wing of Israeli politics in light of the Oslo Accords.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-hating_Jew

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By Shingo, January 30, 2009 at 3:01 pm Link to this comment

Tropicgirl,

>> The amount of negative and accurate responses to the Israeli trolls on this site to me wasn’t worth their time.

I was thinking the same thing.  Not only do the Zionist trolls not convince anyone of their arguments, they actually marginliase Israel even further.

I have a theory.  Couuld it be that Marylin et all are not really a Zionists or pro Jewish, but anti Semites?

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By tropicgirl, January 30, 2009 at 2:56 pm Link to this comment

Sorry can’t resist.

This is a great blog and we can see how trolling can backfire. It reminds me of once a publicity rep tried trolling around the blogs for one of Paul McCartneys recent albums that had not so great sales. He was saying as a regular person how great it was. Wouldn’t you know the multiple response blogs were from people who had actually bought it (including me) who were disappointed and could actually say why it was lousy. So it actually hurt him in the long run.

The amount of negative and accurate responses to the Israeli trolls on this site to me wasn’t worth their time.

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By Shingo, January 30, 2009 at 2:46 pm Link to this comment

Part 2 of 2

Zionism is an incurable disease of the mind

To virtually incarcerate the Palestinian people inside degrading cages, destroying their livelihoods, confiscating their lands, stealing their water and uprooting their trees, and then to condemn their legitimate resistance as terrorism is a disease of the mind.

To believe you have the right to chase the Palestinians into an Arab capital city in 1982 and to indiscriminately bombard its civilians for a relentless three months, murdering thousands of innocent people is a disease of the mind.

To encircle the civilian camps of Sabra and Chatila after evacuating the fighters and to unleash on them trained dogs (while providing them with night-illuminating flares for efficiency) and then deny culpability for the carnage is a disease of the mind.

To publicly declare a policy of breaking the bones of Palestinian stone-throwers to prevent them from lifting stones again and to enact this policy is a disease of the mind.

To have the sadistic streak of exacting vengeance on the innocent families of suicide bombers by punishing them with the dynamiting of their home is a disease of the mind.

To describe the offer of giving the Palestinians 80 percent of 22 percent of 100 percent of what is originally their own land as a “generous” offer is a disease of the mind.

To believe that you have the right to continue to humiliate the Palestinians at gun point by making them queue for hours to move between their villages, forcing mothers to give birth at check-points is a disease of the mind.

To flatten the camp of Jenin on its inhabitants and deny any wrongdoing is a delusional condition which is symptomatic of a serious disease of the mind.

To build a huge separation wall under the pretext of security, which disconnects farmers from their farms and children from their schools, while stealing even more territory as the wall freely zigzags and encroaches on Palestinian land is a disease of the mind.

To leave behind, in the last 10 days of a losing war in Lebanon, more than one million cluster bombs which have no purpose except to murder and maim unsuspecting civilians is a product of an evil disease of the mind.

To believe that the entire world is out to get you and to denounce any critic of the racist policies of the State of Israel as an anti-Semite, the latest victim being none other than peace-making Jimmy Carter, is an acute stage of mass paranoia, which is a disease of the mind.

To possess, in the midst of a non-nuclear Arab world, more than 200 nuclear warheads capable of incinerating the whole planet in addition to having the most advanced arsenal of weaponry in the world while continuing to play the role of a victim is a disease of the mind.

Yes, and for that salesman in peaceful Geneva to be so insecure as to refuse to acknowledge the name of the largest West Bank city under his country’s brutal military occupation is, sadly, nothing but an infectious disease of the mind.

That’s all what it is, ladies and gentlemen: Zionism is an incurable disease of the mind.

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By Shingo, January 30, 2009 at 2:46 pm Link to this comment

Here is a summary of the mental sickenss that has afflicted the likes of Marylin,

Part 1 of 2

Zionism is an incurable disease of the mind

It was then that it finally occurred to me. Zionism is a sickness, for it takes much more than just a twisted ideology to make people think like that. It requires a profound leap of immorality of a higher order to instill this mentality in your followers. Zionism is not merely a political movement, but in its essence represents a deeply disturbed view of the world, which is a reflection of a terrible disease of the mind.

Indeed, to deny the existence of a vibrant community such as the Palestinian society in the early twentieth century and describe Palestine as “a land without a people for a people without a land” is a disease of the mind.

To assert property claims over real estate after the lapse of more than 2000 years with the same certainty of title as if one resided there yesterday is a disease of the mind.

To describe the colonial immigration to Palestine of a European people with no proven historical link to the ancient Israelites – and whose great, great recorded ancestors have never set foot there – as some kind of a “return” to that land is indicative of a perverted misunderstanding and misapplication of the verb to “return” and can only be a result of a disease of the mind.

To blame the Palestinians for being unreasonable in rejecting a partition plan in 1947 which gave the Jews, who only owned 7 percent of the land, an astonishing half of Palestine, is a disease of the mind.

To demand of the Arabs at the time to peacefully succumb to such partition, where 86 percent of the land designated for the proposed Jewish state was Palestinian-inhabited and owned land, is a disease of the mind.

To eventually grab 78 percent of Palestine through war and to force the flight of the population through deliberate massacres and then call it a war of independence is a disease of the mind.

To deny the orchestrated massacres and eradications of hundreds of Palestinian villages in 1948 and then denounce the Israeli historians who later exposed this truth as self-hating Jews is a disease of the mind.

To claim that having escaped the horrors of Auschwitz-Birkenau, Treblinka, and Dachau is a justification for the murder, expulsion, and occupation of another guiltless people is a disease of the mind.

To legislate that any resident of Poland, Hungary, New York, Brazil, Australia, Iceland, or even Planet Mars, who happens to be blessed with a Jewish mother (yet cannot point to Palestine on the map) has a superior right to “return” and settle in Palestine to someone who has been expelled from his very own land, confined to a squalid refugee camp, and still holds the keys to his house, is a disease of the mind.

To blame God for the theft and occupation of someone else’s land by claiming that it was He who had pledged this land exclusively to the Jews, and to seriously promote the myth of a land promised by the Almighty to His favorite children as an excuse for this crime, is a disease of the mind.

To milk the pockets of the world for the atrocities of the Nazis, while stubbornly refusing a simple admission of guilt, let alone compensation or repatriation, for the catastrophe that befell the Palestinian people is a disease of the mind.

To keep reminding and blackmailing the world of the plight of the Jews under Hitler 70 years ago, while at the same time inflicting on the Palestinians today the same fate of the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto, is a disease of the mind.

To impose a collective guilt overshadowing Western civilization for the Holocaust and then to criminalize all legitimate historical debate of the nature and extent of that horrific event is a disease of the mind.

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By Shingo, January 30, 2009 at 2:42 pm Link to this comment

Marilyn,

You’ve been found out and exposed as a liar and a fraud, so why even bother?

Yes.I am sure that you only just now,, viewed the terrifying film you mentioned.  You poor dear, shaken as you are.  It must have been such a revenlation to you.

Meanwhile, the 400 incinerated bodies of children don’t even pique your interest.  How revealing!!

You have exposed yourself Marylin, by admittign you have a mission.  A mission to relay propaghanda and irrlavant incidents that took place in a country far away from Gaza.  Your mission, as you put it, is to demonize an entire religious group, because you harbor a hatred and fear of them.

We have alreay etablished that Geert Wilders is a fraud and a hack.

Lord Ahmed is a Muslin MP who decried the Wilders film and threatened a ten-thousand man protest against another English peer to deny her request to screen the film and conduct an open discussion on the issues. 

>> The broader issue is separation of church and state.

On which grounds you must be very concerned with the state of Israel, that marries church and state.  After all, it is a Jewish state, and Judaism is a religion.

>>> Their lives may be in danger, as well.

Like a true Zionist shill, ample use of hyperbole is the norm.

So you are worried about the lives fo 2 or 3 individuals who you suggest might be in danger, but the lives of 400 children who have been incinerated by Israeli bombs is not even an issue?

How revealing!

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By cyrena, January 30, 2009 at 2:21 pm Link to this comment

RE:By Robert, January 30 at 7:03 am #

Pro-Israel media: Bloggers join media war

Robert, An ABSORPTION Ministry!!! Holy Shit!! This beats ANYTHING the Nazi Propaganda Ministry could EVER come up with.

But, you KNOW I believe it. We’ve been seeing these trolls all over the internet and blogging sites since they’ve been in existence.

In fact, I would hazard a semi-informed guess that they are probably MORE present here on Truthdig than the other so-called alternative media blog sites, just because Truthdig does NOT monitor/moderate this forum, aside from the really obvious stuff. Even then, it’s more of a self-monitored forum and the hardcore trolls/nutcases aren’t as easily weeded out, if at all.

So, the best we can do is call ‘em out by name as soon as they show up and start sprouting the same old bullshit propaganda. It’s a never-ending exercise, not unlike laundry or any other sort of maintenance/upkeep.

A few other websites do a better job on filtering them out, (Alternet and Truthout.org) but places like Truthdig are a haven. When these trolls get kicked off of the other blogging sites, they can always come back here, and that’s what they do.
(at least that’s been my observation of the past few years).

Still, thanks for the heads up. An ABSORPTION Ministry. My Gawd…it never ends…

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By Nozferatu, January 30, 2009 at 10:40 am Link to this comment

Oh and one other thing since I couldn’t resist it’s such an easy target:
——————————————————————————-
Vancemack said:

““PHenry…I have decided that it is FUN to play the silly game that the godless hate filled bigotted Jew hating posters on this site have take…specifically…since anyone they disagree with is a ZIONIST…well…calling names is FUN! That is why I use those words. My previous posts dont include name calling.

But…I notice you dont call out the godless hate filled bigotted Jew hating posters for THEIR name calling…hmmm”“
————————————————————————-

Well Vance, how does it finally feel to be treated like you treat others…calling everyone ANTI-SEMITIC who doesn’t agree with you and Israeli policy?  Hmmmm??

Wink

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By Nozferatu, January 30, 2009 at 10:33 am Link to this comment

What people like Vancemack and Marylin don’t understand is that it’s not jews people hate…it’s people LIKE THEM that people hate and are utterly sick of.

These morally bankrupt, self delusional types are what destroy the hope, outstanding scholastic work, and truly moral side of their own people….who are exemplified by upstanding HUMAN BEINGS like Norman Finkelstein, Chomsky, Kucinich, etc.

People like Laura, VM, Marylin, and the rest of them have turned killing and destroying people’s lives into a sport…through banking, through politics, through, government control, through “wars of survival”....AS IF they are the end all-be all of having the rights to survive.

None of these charlatans would stand a moment of living in Gaza…because they are too busy living their well paid elite lifestyles while spewing drivel of the worst kind. 

There is really no point arguing with these people.

Frankly what needs to be done is just to do what they do.  Use their approach…just regurgitate the REAL facts against their BS until people get it.

And as I have mentioned here before, Truthdig is one of many sites…who’s to say it’s not a diversion away from more important places where we should be voicing our issues?

Instead of wasting time arguing with these idiots here, send the stuff you are finding directly to Obama’s office, etc….they need to be pummeled by it.  Particularly with slime like Rahm Emmanuel sitting next to him.

But the sense of change feels real this time…and like any animal, you can tell they feel threatened when they begin to squirm and get aggressive.

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By Ed Harges, January 30, 2009 at 10:01 am Link to this comment

re: By Robert, January 30 at 7:03 am:

I would like to know to what extent these bloggers are encouraged to present themselves falsely as being non-Jewish. This seems to be a pattern with these hacks. They also seem to claim to be women a lot - maybe because women are perceived to be more peaceable and more sympathetic than men?

They start out by claiming to be non-Jewish, disinterested persons, only recently drawn to this subject because of current events, and then they launch into a chapter-and-verse recitation of the entire Likudnik version of Israeli history, going into this or that truce from 19-eighty-something, this or that bombing in 19-seventy-something, this or that thing that Arafat said in 19-sixty-something. It’s so phony.

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By Folktruther, January 30, 2009 at 9:04 am Link to this comment

Way to go, Robert, on finding the piece that outlines the Zionist army of bloggers.  Many truthers don’t have a full understanding of how organized and effective power structures are, or how duplicious.  You and brewerstroupe actually give scholarship a better name, since most of it is so conservative.

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By tropicgirl, January 30, 2009 at 8:22 am Link to this comment

Marilyn, If I were you and the rest of the murderers, I would be afraid too. Be very afraid. You are the people the world is coming after.

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By Robert, January 30, 2009 at 8:03 am Link to this comment

Pro-Israel media: Bloggers join media war

01.29.2009 | Ynet
By Itamar Eichner

“Some 1,000 new immigrants and foreign-language-speaking Jews volunteer to army of bloggers set up by Absorption Ministry and Foreign Ministry with the stated objective of flooding blogs with pro-Israel opinions

Arye Sharuz-Shalicar, 31, whose parents emigrated from Iran to Germany, is a one-man PR show. He speaks Persian, German, English, French, and Spanish and can also get by in Russian, Turkish, Arabic, and Italian.

Sharuz-Shalicar is one of the front-line soldiers in the Ministry of Absorption’s new “army of bloggers” that was recently established in cooperation with the Foreign Ministry’s public relations department following Operation Cast Lead in the Gaza Strip.

The Absorption Ministry is recruiting new immigrants and Jews living abroad who have access to a computer and who speak a second language to a volunteer effort to improve public relations for Israel on the internet. The campaign was launched last week.

In the cross hairs are problematic blogs, talkbacks, online social networks, online polls, Youtube videos, and more.

The ministry was amazed by the massive response to the effort. More than 1,000 interested applicants contacted them, of which 350 are Russian speakers, 250 English speakers, 150 Spanish speakers, 100 French speakers, and 50 German speakers.

A range of other European languages are also represented among the volunteers: Portuguese, Swedish, Dutch, Italian, Romanian, Hungarian, Polish, Greek, Bulgarian, and Danish. Persian-, Turkish-, and Arabic-speaking Jews also offered their services. The ministry even got an application from a Chinese speaker.

Some 60% of the applicants are immigrants, old and new. The rest are Jews living in the Diaspora, Israelis living abroad, and even non-Jews who support Israel and want to help out.

The Absorption Ministry forwarded the volunteers’ details to the Foreign Ministry, which briefed them via email and provided up-to-date material on the situation, including video clips that could help them in the field.

While the Absorption Ministry is tasked with recruitment, the Foreign Ministry will be responsible for directing the volunteers online. Each time the ministry identifies an anti-Israel trend on a foreign-language blog, news site, or other website, it will immediately put out a message to the volunteers to flood the site with pro-Israel opinions.

Absorption Ministry Director-General Erez Halfon commented, “This provides an important opportunity for new immigrants, who have always been a strong Zionist nucleus, to feel like they are contributing to improving Israel’s image in the world. The foreign-language-speaking immigrants are a real asset, and it is important to take advantage of this. From our perspective, it was like an emergency call up, and I am thrilled that the response was so great.”

Noam Katz, director of the Foreign Ministry’s PR department, said, “We are in the process of thinking how to utilize these volunteers not only during conflict, but also during regular times as well.”

Miriam Schatzberger, 25, a new immigrant from Germany, joined the ranks of the ministry’s volunteers.

Schatzberger said, “I surf the German websites, and I was shocked by the anti-Israel reports. It is really smart to go on these blogs, to introduce myself as an Israeli and just to talk to them in order to try and balance out the picture.”

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=2633

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By Marilyn A.F., January 30, 2009 at 7:38 am Link to this comment

Typo: sorry
Link to second film should be:
http://www.israpundit.com/2008/?p=8668

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By Marilyn A.F., January 30, 2009 at 7:30 am Link to this comment

This isn’t fun anymore. After viewing two terrifying
films, one by a Dutch parliamentarian indicting the violence of extreme Islamists and another by a moderate American Muslim, warning of the true nature of a radical Muslim agenda, I am shaken.

My mail box was filled with about 30 notices that my comments here beg for rebuttal; thought I had declined that option.  I deleted all; I don’t want to joust with individuals.  My mission is to relay information and my own opinion on how we can collectively save the world from its own excesses.
I have always tended toward satire; it best expresses the total absurdity of the human condition.

So I will try again to link you to the Geert Wilders film. He translates the Koran and uses pictures to illustrate brutal Muslim jihad.  (Maybe this has already been posted; but I have no knowledge of it.)

http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot/2009/01/lord-ahmed-threatens-parliament-into.html

Lord Ahmed is a Muslin MP who decried the Wilders film and threatened a ten-thousand man protest against another English peer to deny her request to screen the film and conduct an open discussion on the issues.  I hope the link works; scroll down and find the link to the movie at the site.

The broader issue is separation of church and state.

The other film by the moderate Muslim is called, “The Third Jihad.”  He is obviously not a Zionist.  Neither is the Anglican Bishop nor is
Geert Wilders. They are all more concerned about preserving democracy, defending against the onslaught of Sharia Law and loss of individual freedom than striking a pose.  Their lives may be in
danger, as well.

http://www.irapundit.com/2008/?p=8668

Peace

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By Shingo, January 30, 2009 at 2:21 am Link to this comment

vancemack,

>> I have decided that it is FUN to play the silly game that the godless hate filled bigotted Jew hating posters on this site have take

vancemack, you must be mistaking those voices in your head for an audience.  There are no Jew hating posters on this forum, though sleazy posters like yourself like to pretend they are everywhere.

Having said that, I wouldn’t want to ruin your fun, but I feel obliged to let you know, you can get therapy for that hair trigger.

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By vancemack, January 30, 2009 at 12:55 am Link to this comment

PHenry…I have decided that it is FUN to play the silly game that the godless hate filled bigotted Jew hating posters on this site have take…specifically…since anyone they disagree with is a ZIONIST…well…calling names is FUN! That is why I use those words. My previous posts dont include name calling.

But…I notice you dont call out the godless hate filled bigotted Jew hating posters for THEIR name calling…hmmm…

wink

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By Sepharad, January 29, 2009 at 10:01 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

sacred cow, the only thing we seem to agree on is that “Lonesome Dove” is a masterpiece. You seem well-educated (and highly conscious of it, in that you condescend to people who disagree with you—the better their arguments the more over-the-top your condescension—a lot like Cyrena at her worst, but she at least has a better side that shines through once in a while). But Laura and Marilyn clearly have you on the facts—not to mention vance mack, who is rightfully disgusted with the inane positions parroted on this site, such as Folktruther most recent discovery that Olmert has time and motive to organize bloggers. Surely, with the challenges facing his country, he has better things to do. I don’t understand your and Shingo’s desperation for lockstep consensus, attacking a country like Israel that per capita probably has more citizens who justify their existence on this earth than any other country in the world .. and probably, collectively, give more than a tinker’s damn about the Palestinians than all the Arab countries as well as people like you, safe and secure and affluent, far away from the fighting, floating along on maxed-out ego trips. On another thread, Inherit the Wind said that facts and history mean nothing to Israel-haters, and I believe he’s probably right.

I have my own criticisms of Israel—it’s swung way too far from the socialist state under which model progress slowed down too much, to the overly capitalist state it has become. The orthodox have far too much influence, not only on immigration but also in the daily aspects of people’s lives. But Israel is also trying to survive as humanely as possible against enemies who have given them no respite from violence, a situation in which any other modern state would have long since carpeted-bombed the whole area. If Hamas wants a ceasefire let them turn over Gilad Shalit, recognize Israel’s right to exist and stop with the rockets. Israelis want peace and security guarantees and a second state.

There are such painful compromises facing both sides that this pain must be acknowledged and addressed by anyone who really cares if these two peoples survive. A Palestinian state will never achieve a good life for its people and their children if they can’t hold down the religious fundamentalists (Hamas and Hezbollah) long enough to build a decent society. Until Palestine has an army and police that can stand up to the Islamofascists, Egyptians and Jordanians, subsidized by the Saudis, could do much to guarantee security. And until Palestinians also realize Israel is here to stay, there will not be sufficient economic and educational projects to sustain them. And if you aren’t interested in helping achieve this, at least get out of the way. (Do you really believe that if an Arab country had had nuclear weapons they would’ve not used them for 23 years?)

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By Shingo, January 29, 2009 at 9:20 pm Link to this comment

Marilyn,

We’ve heard it all before.  The Zionist rabble love to point to nasty examples of humanity, who happen to be Muslim/Arab, and insist that these cases re representative of an entire community/race/religion.

Geert Wilders, for example, is a rabid right wing nationalist, and like yourself a racist, islamophobe, who is exploiting inflammatory topics to further his profile and incite hatred.  I can understand why you regard him as a fellow traveler.

Wilders is a Catholic with no credentials or qualification to comment on what the Koran represents.

Facts be damned.

Wafa Sultan, is an angry woman who has become the darling of the right wing establishment, and is a darling of the neocons.  Of course, if you mutually listened to what Sultan says, you’d know that she contradicts the ideas put forward by Wilders.  Unlike Wilders, she maintains that the Koran’s teachings are ethical and have been distorted, which is true.  the same could be said of the Bible and the Torah.

On and here is a nice Youtube for you:

Journalist Receives Death Threat for Talking About Israel
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=spXA7GrOcLU

>> Be advised, again here are graphic pictures—Jews in ovens; Jews in shallow graves; Jews in internment camps.

And what do Jews in ovens, in graves and internment camps have to do with Islam?  Was this not the work of a largely Christian state?  And why do images “Jews” in graves and internment camps disturb you, but not images of “Muslims” in graves and internment camps?

We know why don’t we Marylin? I promise not to tell.

>> He praises Hitler for exterminating so many Jewish people; that must be a bit of a conundrum for Holocaust deniers.

Why so?  This man does not speak for the Islamic world anymore than the extremist rabbi Yousef Falay, who calls for the extermination of all Palestinian males.

>> Then there is another film of English policemen being chased down a street

We can both play at that pathetic game.  After all, the English cops were also cited for using unnecessary force on the demonstrators.

And while we’re at it, feel free to browse this photo gallery

http://www.doublestandards.org/photos/fotopal.html
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=2510

and seeing as you;re so find of Youtube

Israeli Soldiers using Palestinians as Human Shields
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=FjEd4hJNVCE

Israeli Soldiers attacking a Palestinian Mother and Son
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=DuhcSCw9fdU

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By sacred cow, January 29, 2009 at 9:10 pm Link to this comment

Marilyn AF ... oh my god .. the wild hordes ... huns at the gate ... er, eh, militant islamists (“england overrun by militant islamists) ...”???? you fit well into the model ascribed by psychobabble to the fascists ... meanwhile, back at the ranch, who is occupying whom? who has REALLY overrun whom? eh?

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