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With Gaza, Journalists Fail Again

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Posted on Jan 26, 2009
AP photo / Sebastian Scheiner

A rainbow, as if projected by the American media, is seen over the northern Gaza Strip, from the Israel-Gaza Border.

By Chris Hedges

(Page 2)

It was Israel, not Hamas, which violated the truce established last June. This was never made clear in any of the press reports. Hamas agreed to halt rocket fire into Gaza in exchange for an Israeli promise to ease the draconian siege that made the shipment of vital material and food into Gaza nearly impossible. And once the agreement was reached, the Hamas rocket fire ended. Israel, however, never upheld its end of the agreement. It increased the severity of the siege. U.N. agencies complained. International relief organizations condemned the Israeli blockade. And there were even rumblings inside Israel. Shmuel Zakai, an Israeli brigadier general who resigned as commander of the Israel Defense Forces’ Gaza Division and was forcibly discharged from the military amid allegations that he leaked information to the media, told the Israeli newspaper Haaretz on Dec. 22 that the Israeli government had made a “central error” during the tahdiyeh, the six-month period of relative truce, by failing “to take advantage of the calm to improve, rather than markedly worsen, the economic plight of the Palestinians of the Strip. … [W]hen you create a tahdiyeh, and the economic pressure on the Strip continues,” Zakai said, “it is obvious that Hamas will try to reach an improved tahdiyeh, and that their way to achieve this is resumed Qassam fire. … You cannot just land blows, leave the Palestinians in Gaza in the economic distress they’re in, and expect that Hamas will just sit around and do nothing.”

Israel, we know from papers such as Haaretz, started planning this assault last March. The Israeli army deliberately broke the truce when it carried out an attack on Nov. 4 that killed six Hamas fighters. It timed the attack, the heavy air and naval bombardment and the invasion of Gaza to coincide with the waning weeks of the Bush administration. Israel knew it would be given carte blanche by the White House. Hamas responded to the Nov. 4 provocation in the way Israel anticipated. It fired Qassam rockets and Grad missiles into Israel to retaliate. But even then Hamas offered to extend the truce if Israel would lift the blockade. Israel refused. Operation Cast Lead was unleashed.

Henry Siegman, the director of the U.S./Middle East Project at the Council of Foreign Relations, noted correctly that Israel “could have met its obligation to protect its citizens by agreeing to ease the blockade, but it didn’t even try. It cannot be said that Israel launched its assault to protect its citizens from rockets. It did so to protect its right to continue the strangulation of Gaza’s population.”

There were a few flashes of integrity in the American press. The Wall Street Journal ran a thoughtful piece, “How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas,” on Jan. 24 that was unusual in view of the acceptance in U.S. press coverage that Hamas is nothing more than an Islamo-fascist organization that understands only violence. And some journalists from news organizations such as the BBC did a good job once they were finally permitted to enter Gaza. Jimmy Carter wrote an Op-Ed article in The Washington Post detailing his and the Carter Center’s efforts to prevent the conflict. This article was an important refutation of the Israeli argument, although it was ignored by the rest of the media. But these were isolated cases. The publishers, news executives and editors largely accepted without any real protest Israel’s ban on coverage and allowed Israeli officials to fill their news pages and airtime with fabrications and distortions. And this made the war crimes carried out by the Israeli army easier to commit and prolong.

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Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, who is acutely aware of Israel’s violations of international law, has already begun to reassure his commanders that they will be protected from war crimes prosecution.

“The commanders and soldiers that were sent on the task in Gaza should know that they are safe from any tribunal and that the State of Israel will assist them in this issue and protect them as they protected us with their bodies during the military operation in Gaza,” he said.

Israel’s brutal military tactics, despite the lack of coverage in the American press, have come under intense international scrutiny. Human rights groups, including Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, blame the high civilian death toll on indiscriminate firing and shelling, as well as the use of white phosphorus shells in civilian areas. Israel has admitted using white phosphorus in Gaza but insists the chemical, used for smoke screens and to mark spots to be shelled or bombed, was not used directly against civilians.

Hamas is an unsavory organization. It has made life miserable for many in Gaza and carried out a series of death-squad-style executions of alleged opponents. But Hamas, elected to power in 2006, also brought effective civil control to Gaza. Gaza, ruled by warring factions, warlords, clans, kidnapping rings and criminal gangs, had descended into chaos under Mahmoud Abbas’ corrupt Fatah-led government. Hamas, once it assumed power, halted suicide bombing attacks on Israel. It ended rocket fire into Israel for almost a year. It upheld its agreement with Israel. Hamas’ willingness to negotiate with Israel, albeit through Egyptian intermediaries, led al-Qaida, which has been working to make inroads among the Palestinians, to condemn the Hamas leadership as collaborators.

Israel and the United States carried out an abortive and desperate attempt to overthrow Hamas by arming and backing a Fatah putsch in June 2007. They wanted to install the pliant Abbas in power. Hamas resisted, often with violent brutality, and expelled Abbas and the Fatah leadership from Gaza to the West Bank. Israel has now decided to do the dirty job itself. It will not work. Israel broke and discredited Yasser Arafat and Fatah in much the same manner. Abbas and Fatah have no authority or credibility left. Abbas is seen by most Palestinians as a pliant Israeli stooge. Israel is now destroying Hamas. Radical Islamic groups, such as al-Qaida, far more violent and irrational, stand poised to replace Hamas. And Israel will one day look wistfully at Hamas just as it does now at Fatah. But by then, with Israel surrounded by radical Islamic regimes in Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and even Jordan, as well as fighting a homegrown al-Qaida movement among the Palestinians, it may be too late.

The Israeli government bears the responsibility for its crimes. But by giving credibility to the lies and false narratives Israel uses to justify wholesale slaughter we empower not only Israel’s willful self-destruction but our own. The press, as happened during the buildup to the Iraq war, was again feckless and gutless. It bent to the will of the powerful. It abandoned its sacred contract with its readers, listeners and viewers to always tell the truth. It chattered about nothing. It obscured the facts. It did this while hundreds of women and children were torn to shreds by iron fragmentation bombs in a flagrant violation of international law. And as it failed it lauded itself for doing “a fair, balanced and complete job.”

Chris Hedges’ Truthdig column appears Mondays. He is a veteran journalist and the former New York Times Mideast bureau chief.


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PatrickHenry's avatar

By PatrickHenry, May 21, 2012 at 3:09 am Link to this comment

Cherubim,

Your obviously a deluded zionist fruit loop, now crawl back under the rock you came out from under.

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By Cherubim, May 20, 2012 at 7:14 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Every nation and society throughout history which has tried to destroy, conquer, or just plain opposes the Jewish people and Israel has failed or been destroyed. I.E: Egypt, Rome, Greece, Persian Empire, British Empire, Nazi Germany, Europe is currently in shambles and America is following suit. Israel on the other hand has only thrived and grew stronger over time. Wake up people.

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By Sepharad, February 27, 2009 at 10:48 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Shingo,

Yes, the settlers are hyperreligious extremists and as are the rabbis of Hebron (and elsewhere in the country, but those in Hebron as well as non-Fatah extremists in that same city made Arab friends in East Jerusalem talk us out of going to that city last November). Religious extremists on every side have done terrible harm to bringing people together as human beings. Humanistic Jews (to which I belong) observe the same rituals and traditions as other Jews but without mentioning a god or miracles or anything religious. (The old zealots were notoriously secular, though Simon bar Kochba’s rebellion was supported by Rabbi Akiva, who was also skinned alive by the Romans, just another of their bloody examples.) 

Not so much their song lyrics but the experiences of those two women who have lived what everyone is talking about here—the possibilities and difficulties of coexistence—are worth grasping. As for the rest, you seem sufficiently concerned and the material is there.

You quote articles from Ha’aretz but there are other newspapers and periodicals in Israel, some to the left of Ha’aretz and others centrist and others to the right. Best magazine is Jerusalem Reports, which carries lengthy stories and opposing opinions in the same issue. I don’t think JR is on the Net but the others are. Also Cairo Times, which has material all over the place—conflicted country, Egypt, but some good writers.

Studying detailed histories is essential, however.
Politicians are politicians but you can’t get a grip on them, at least not in the Middle East, without a lot of scrupulous historical material. Documents. Wikipedia’s OK but input not scrupulously vetted. Marshall Hodgeson’s three-volume “The Venture of Islam” is the most detailed (and admiring)history I’ve read, with the exception of the Haditha (interpretations of Mohammed’s sayings by some of his followers—eight volumes parsing the Koran). Albert Hourani has an overview “History of the Arabs”. Fouad Ajami, scorned here for supporting the Iraq War, nevertheless has written some astute analytical material on Arab society (“The Arab Predicament” and “Dream Palace of the Arabs”). Most prolific is Bernard Lewis, who’s spent his whole life in the Middle East and has written numerous books on many aspects of Islamic societies, is amazingly precise and clear. Also like Edward Said’s “Orientalism”, Kaplan’s “The Arabists”, and a lot of medieval/Al Andalus history which says a great deal about the strengths and failings of Islamic societies. Arab historians on the Crusades are very interesting but tend to hagiographic. Lord Kinross’ “The Ottomans” is definitive. David Fromkin on “The Great Game” is good modern background and there are also many books on the history of Israel, but you’d probably like those by Benny Morrison (who revises his revisionism when new information comes up) and Michael Oder (Ober? Can’t remember his name for sure; will not be back to my books till early April)on 6-day war and he also cowrote a book with a Palestinian journalist dealing with a number of controversies in the Israeli-Arab conflict. Laugh if you want, but have also found books by “old spies” quite informative if you read enough of them by different retirees from different foreign services—American, British, Israeli, French. I must have 700-800 titles at home on Mideast, many written from one perspective or the other—e.g. the Irgun’s explanation of De’ir Yassin is skewed quite differently from Arab accounts, though other books with pieces of what actually occurred let you put it together. Don’t know if you are all that interested in the Middle East; personally, my main interest is in Al Andalus, Reconquista and Conquistadors (all hang together) but truthfully, if I weren’t so interested in Israel and the region, I’d be working on Native American history from the point the conquistadors entered through 1880s.

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By PatrickHenry, February 27, 2009 at 8:44 pm Link to this comment

Sepharad

The zealots of old mirror present day Israeli settlers of occupied Palestinian territory.

http://i-cias.com/e.o/zealots.htm

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By Shingo, February 27, 2009 at 7:57 pm Link to this comment

Sepharad,

It’s quote funny to have you suggest others don’t understand the complexities of Middle East’s history, while going o to cite the lyrics of a songs to ste the record straight.

Extreme Christian, Jews, Hindu and Buddists have also always always been with us.  That is the human condition.  Re the Jewish Zealots, clearly you haven’t been paying attention to the extreme doctrines put forward by Rabbis in Hebron.

Today’s settlers are every bit as extreme as their most hyperreligious opposite numbers among the Palestinians.  Just saying otherwise doesn’t make it so.

Re Sunni and Shiia in Iraq, Sadddam was a secular leader, not a religious one.  It’s true that the ruling class were Sunni under his reign, but it wasn’t because of religious doctrine.  To rise among government ranks (aka the Bath party) one had to be Sunni, but Saddam imposed this as a means of divide and rule, not because he was a religious man.

Saddam ruled with fear, not according to religious text. Anyone who voiced opposition usually ended up with a bullet to the back of their head, as well as their families.

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By Sepharad, February 27, 2009 at 7:20 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Shingo & Patrick Henry,

There’s just too much you don’t know and understand about the Middle East’s history and all the different people who’ve had a hand in shaping it, and what its realities past and present are. (The most destructive influences by far have been the hacking up that occurred post-Ottoman, the presence of oil and the international arms dealers.) (Maybe you should listen to the lyrics of the songs Nini and Awad are putting together re the difficulties of coexinstence and being caught between the right and the left.)

Extreme Islamists have always been with us, often in conflict with other Moslems. Re the Jewish Zealots, they were not religious—roundly criticized by the priestly classes not only for their impiety but for their dogged resistance to the Roman rule, their respect for the teachings of Jesus re the poor though rebellious at his turn-the-other-cheek teachings, and were the main defenders of Masada. Today’s settlers are not like the zealots in that they as hyperreligious as their opposite numbers among the Palestinians.

Re Sunni and Shiia in Iraq, one of the only decent excuses for the Iraq war (not nearly enough for the toll it has taken on both Americans and Iraqis) was that post-Gulf War Saddam’s Sunni ruling class were not at all reluctant to go along when he gassed Shiia and Kurds.

You both have good minds and fundamentally fair attitudes. Please just take the time to avail yourselves of all the history that’s been written about the region (links and contemporary journalistic opinion is inadequate) and by all means travel there, talk to Arabs and Jews on the streets, to the scholars, to people who regard themselves as neutral.

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By Shingo, February 27, 2009 at 2:44 pm Link to this comment

Laura Schneider,

Your link happens to have nothing to do with Iraq, so I suggest you rethink your argument.

The Shia and Sunni in Iraq were co-existing, sharing neighborhoods and intermarrying.  The conflict between rival militant factions began with the bombing of the Golden Dome Mosque in S?marr?.  Prior to that event, both Sunni and Shia were fighting the occupation.

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By Laura Schneider, February 27, 2009 at 10:57 am Link to this comment

“Sh?‘? ” should read “Shi’a” in the previous post.  Ond’t know what happened…. Sorry.

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By Laura Schneider, February 27, 2009 at 10:53 am Link to this comment

Shingo said to Sepharad:
“They [Sunni-Shi’a violence] only started doing that after 2003,so what does that tell us?  The US backed the Shiites against the Sunnis and when that failed, they backed the Sunnis against the Shia.  It’s called divide and conquer.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunni-Shia_relations under History documents that this Sunni-Shi’a conflict has been going on since 750AD.  The idea that there was no violence between the two groups is ridiculously inaccurate:  “Ismail I initiated a religious policy to recognize Sh?‘ism as the official religion of the Safavid Empire (1501-1722), and the fact that modern Iran remains an officially Sh?‘? state is a direct result of Ismail’s actions….  Unfortunately for Ismail, most of his subjects were Sunni. He thus had to enforce official Sh?‘ism violently, putting to death those who opposed him.“ (Shah Ismail I, 1501-26)

Sh?‘?-Sunni in Levant:  Sh?‘?s claim that despite these advances, many Sh?‘?s in Syria continued to be killed during this period for their faith. One of these was Muhammad Ibn Makki, called Shahid-i Awwal (the First Martyr), one of the great figures in Sh?‘? jurisprudence, who was killed in Damascus in 1384 CE (al-Ka-mil of Ibn Athir, Cairo, 1348; Raudat al-safa’; and Habib al-siyar of Khwand Mir)….  Shihab al-Din Suhrawardi was another eminent scholar, killed in Aleppo on charges of cultivating Batini teachings and philosophy (al-Ka-mil of Ibn Athir, Cairo, 1348; Raudat al-safa’; and Habib as-Siyar of Khwand Mir).”

“The Shi’a suffered indirect and direct persecution under post-colonial Iraqi governments since 1932, especially that of Saddam Hussein….  The eight-year Iraq-Iran war (1980-1988) could have turned into a Sunni-Shi’a conflict, particularly as, in the eyes of many, Saddam appeared to be fighting on behalf of all the Sunni regimes in the Gulf. That it did not was because thousands of Iraqi Shi’as saw it as an Arab-Persian conflict, rather than a sectarian war between Sunnis and Shi’as in both countries. (http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2007/02/sunni-shia-iraq-iran-arab) ...  Post-1980:  Following this period, Sunni-Sh?‘? strife has seen a major uptick, particularly in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan….  According to scholar Vali Nasr, as the Muslim world was decolonialised and Arab nationalism lost its appeal, fundamentalism blossomed and reasserted the differences and conflicts between the two movements, particularly in the strict teachings of Sunni scholar Ibn Taymiyyah. (Nasr, Vali, The Shia Revival, Norton, 2006, p.106-7)  The Iranian Islamic revolution, changed the Sh?‘?-Sunni power equation in Muslim countries “from Lebanon to India” arousing the traditionally subservient Sh?‘ah to the alarm of traditionally dominant and very non-revolutionary Sunni.” (Nasr, Vali, The Shia Revival, Norton, (2006), p.148-50)....  “Olivier Roy, research director at the French National Center for Scientific Research, sees the “Shia awakening and its instrumentalisation by Iran” as leading to a “very violent Sunni reaction”, starting first in Pakistan before spreading to “the rest of the Muslim world, without necessarily being as violent.” According to Roy, “two events created a sea change in the balance of power between Shia and Sunnis: the Islamic revolution in Iran and the American military intervention in Iraq” in 2003. “Today, Azerbaijan is probably the only country where there are still mixed mosques and Shi’a and Sunnis pray together.” (Roy, Olivier, The Politics of Chaos in the Middle East, Columbia University Press, 2008 (p.105))

You have a tendency to make these blanket statements and accusations that do not hold up under scrutiny.  Please check your facts.

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By Shingo, February 26, 2009 at 7:03 pm Link to this comment

Sepharad,

2 of 2

>> using what Thomas Friedman calls “Hamah rules”, which most Arabs play by, unconcerned by civilian deaths.

Thomas Friedman also said that those were the very rules Israel used in Lebanon in 290096 and in Gaza. M Mind you, Ze’ev Shiff (Israeli journalist and military correspondent for Ha’aretz) says that “The Israeli army has always struck civilian populations, purposely and consciously. The army has never distinguished civilian from military targets, but has purposely attacked civilian targets.”

Israel has never fought back.  Those who declared its independence(before the UN did) were terrorist groups who terorrized and drove out 800,000 Arabs.

No country in the Middle east is a threat to Israel’s existence.  Israel’s concern is not defending itself,. but maintaining it’s military and political superiority in the Middle East.

had nothing to do with Hamas, because even Israel admits that Hamas fired no rockets during the ceasefire.  What happened in Gaza was typical of Israel policy, to avert a political settlement.  The prolem Hams posed was not that they were threatening Isrel with violence, but with moderation, which in turn woudl have forced Israel to negotiate with them.

The Israel of today has no historical roots in Palestine. Zionism is a recent invention and was not born in Palestine, but in Europe. If you want to use the example of the Native Americans, then the Palestinians are the obvious candidate.

Israel might not “want” to destroy the Israelis, but thy do want them to go away and seeing as the Arabs will not do that, the Israelis are dong to by death o of thousand cuts. 

The issue of nuclear capability is irrelevant, because such weapons would be unusable within the confines of Israel, Gaza and the West Bank.

Everybody wants to live in peace - even Hitler did.  The question is under what terms. I’m sure Isrl owoudl love to live in peace and still hold on to the West Bank and East Jerusalem.  They could easily live in peace without West Bank and East Jerusalem, but they have chosen not to.

It’s true there were no checkpoints between Israel and the West Bank from ‘67 and ‘93. It was after the check points and th closure that the suicide bombings began.

Of course, the West Bank does not belong to Israel and was never part of Israel.

The reason the Egyptians reused the hey offered the Rafah camp and territory is because Israel were simply pushing the refugee problem into Egypt and understandably, Egypt refused.  Isarel created the refugees and it is their mess, not Egypts.

There is a simple reason why Israelis have seen nothing good come from returning territory in Gaza and south Lebanon. The explanation is summed up by the only comprehensive scholarly history of Israeli settlements in the occupied territories. It’s been translated into English, called “Lords of the Land”,

“After Israel withdrew it’s forces from Gaza, in August 2005, the ruined territory was not released for even a single day from Israel’s military grip, or from the price of the occupation that the inhabitants pay every day. Israel left behind scotched earth, devastated services, and people with nearly a present or a future. The Jewish settlements were destroyed in an ungenerous move by an unenlightened occupier, which in fact continues to control the territory and kill and harass it’s inhabitants, by means of it’s formidable military might.”

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By Shingo, February 26, 2009 at 7:02 pm Link to this comment

Sepharad,

1 of 2

All political parties are inconsistent, especially Israel i ones, so why should Hamas be any different? Their spokesmen have said the charter is irrelevant. You can’t picjk and choose when you want to believe Hamas and when you don’t. If they are lying now, they were lying then.

When playing to a domestic audience, Olmert said that he believed in Isral’s entenal right to all of the land from Jordan to the Sea.  When speaking to an international audience, he suports a 2 state solution.

You just want to apply double standards.

>> With Moslems, they use acts, not words, e.g. violent purges of Fatah and anyone else who disobeys them.

Firstly, Israel also uses acts not words.  They say they are commited to peace, yet do everything in their power to derail it. For example the 2007 civil war in Gaza was an attempted coup by Fatah, which was backed by Israel and the US.  The US even admitted it. Prior to the coup attempt, Fatah and Hamas were about to hold talks over forming a unity government and Tel Aviv/Washington knocked that idea on the head.

Israel didn’t foolishly allow Hamas a foothold (unless you are talking about the fact that Israel financed and supported Hams in the 80’s as a means to weaken the PLO).  Israel and the US preached to the Palestinians about the virtues fo democracy, then when the Palestinians exercised their democratic power, they were punished fo voting the wrong way.

it’s true that Hamas sprang from the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, but it was fiannced and supported by Israel.

The rise of a right wing government in Israel expresses the extremism and militancy of Israel. After Israel’s humiliatino in Lebanon in 2006,. the public were angry at Olmert for losing.

>> How consistent is it for both Shiia Iran and Sunni Syria to back Sunni Hamas and Shiia Hezbollah?  They will, because they have a common enemy.

Have you ever heard of the arms industry?  Did you know that Hezbollah use American made F-16 semi automatic rifles? That must prove that America also support Hezbollah right?

>> In Iraq, Shiia murders Sunni and Sunni murders Shiia, sects within each strain kill each other.

They only started doing that after 2003,so what does that tell us?  The US backed the Shiites against the Sunnis and when that failed, they backed the Sunnis against the Shia.  It’s called divide and conquer.  T

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PatrickHenry's avatar

By PatrickHenry, February 26, 2009 at 3:43 pm Link to this comment

Shep,

I’m sure the Palestinians are no fans of the current crimminal Israeli government as well. 

The jewist likudniks are guilty on many levels of war crimes and apartheid policies toward the Palestinians that they make the old South Africa crimes against the black majority pale in comparison.

The zealots even killed Yitzahk Rabin for his efforts at formulating peace with the Palestinians.

Israel invented the zealots and they are still in power there.

As an American it sickens me that we support the troublesome nation of Israel especicially when it
demands so much from the U.S. and gives so little in return.

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By Sepharad, February 26, 2009 at 2:30 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Sad but true, story on p. 5 of 2/25 NYTimes headlined “In Israel, Jew and Arab Sing but Political Chorus is Heard.” Singers and peace activists Achinoam Nini (Jew) and Mira Awad (Arab) will, together, represent Israel in the Eurovision Song Contest to be held in Moscow in May. But the leftwing is circulating a petition against their appearance as a way to prettify an ugly situation. As peace advocates (Nini has refused to appear in the West Bank, denounced settlers, and been threatened with bombing from the rightwing), they are very frustrated. They say that with the leftwing turned into an apologist for Hamas and the political turn to the right, they feel like orphans. (I’m not famous but boy do I relate to that feeling.)

Awad says her vision of an independent Palestine is not one of an extreme religious state in which people disliked by the rulers are shot in the leg. (Awad is more famous in Israel as a singer and actress; Nini is more famous as an international singer, being of Yemenite Jewish extraction which gives her music special interest in Europe.) 

On her blog, Nini sharply denounced Islamist Hamas and called on her Palestinian brothers “to join together to eliminate the ugly monster Hamas.” The blog has—big surprise—been widely criticized by the leftwing, but her defense is that she’s just repeating what her Palestinian friends in Gaza are telling her, that they have been threatened by Hamas.

Nini, Awad and their artistic collaborator Gil Dor are preparing four songs for the contest which is now in its 30th year (Israeli entries have won a few times). Each of their songs is written in equal parts Arabic, Hebrew and English. (The two women have been collaborating for eight years, offering during the 2nd intifada their version of the Beatles’ “We Can Work It Out.”) 

The two singers and their artistic collaborator say they spend hours arguing over the meaning of a Jewish democratic nation, the Arab-Israeli conflict and what they can do to make things better. Nini says everyone is responsible for putting in their two-cents’ worth, and theirs’ is music. They are friends, they argue, and she believes they offer an example of what coexistence could look like.

(Their story heartens me, and coexistence looks beautiful, but it will continue to recede from reality as long as the left and right continue to insist on their stupid, nonproductive polarization.)

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By Sepharad, February 26, 2009 at 10:10 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Shingo,

Hamas itself is inconsistent: their charter and writings define themselves. But now, they play to an international audience, knowing what to say to fold Westerners into their camp. (With Moslems, they use acts, not words, e.g. violent purges of Fatah and anyone else who disobeys them.) They say and do anything that moves them an inch closer to their aim: eradicating Israel.

Israel foolishly allowed Hamas a foothold, an attempt to halt Fatah’s siphoning off and keeping for themselves aid money destined for the Palestinians, whose poverty made them easy prey to extremist teachings. Hamas sprang from the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and the allied Islamic Jihad group, murderers of Sadat for making peace with Israel. 

The rise of a rightwing government in Israel expresses citizens’ growing anger. Hamas’ behavior in Gaza is crippling Israel’s centrist drive to force the settlers out of the West Bank. Not doing so will lead to more war, which Hamas wants.

It may seem inconsistent to you for me to take the Charter at face value and call Hamas liars in their other statements, but they are playing under Middle Eastern rules. How consistent is it for both Shiia Iran and Sunni Syria to back Sunni Hamas and Shiia Hezbollah?  They will, because they have a common enemy. In Iraq, Shiia murders Sunni and Sunni murders Shiia, sects within each strain kill each other. Hafiz Assad, father of Syria’s current President, slaughtered 10-20,000 Sunni civilians in Hamah he considered to be a threat to his rule, using what Thomas Friedman calls “Hamah rules”, which most Arabs play by, unconcerned by civilian deaths. 

Given such conditions, Israel cannot survive without fighting back. What happened in Gaza was terrible, but much more the doing of Hamas than Israel. Isralis seem to be asking a rightwing government to look out for them in the near future. The Sioux, Cheyenne and other Native American tribes facing the unending white hordes advancing on them asked their War Chiefs to lead. In the Middle East, the historically-rooted Israelis are like the Native Americans, asking nothing more than a piece of their original territory to live on, while the Arabs are the hordes. Israelis will not, don’t want to, destroy the Arabs; the Arabs do want to destroy the Israelis. The Israelis have never threatened to use the nuclear capability they’ve had for decades, never threatened to push any Arabs into the sea—they just want to live in peace in a small portion of ancient Israel. They have sought peace and compromise for a very long time (succeeding with Jordan and Egypt, as well as non-Arab Turkey). Until the first intifada, there were no checkpoints between Israel and the West Bank from ‘67 and ‘93; West Bank Palestinians moved freely in and out of Israel. Instead of building a nation, the Palestinians allowed and abetted continual terror attacks which, with the first intifada, ended that freedom to come and go from the West Bank to Israel. Checkpoints and finally the Wall cut terror attacks inside Israel by 80%. Israelis did not wall in Gaza on the Egypt border—in fact they offered the Rafiah camp and territory to Egypt when they returned the Sinai (including its Israeli-developed oil fields) following the peace agreement. The Egyptians refused, putting up a wall dividing community and families.

Israelis have seen nothing good come from returning territory in Gaza and south Lebanon. A second state is the ONLY solution, but internationally, demands are always that Israel do or give up something, never asking Palestinians to take responsibility. Trying to dance on one leg is difficult. Maybe, impossible.

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By Shingo, February 24, 2009 at 11:46 pm Link to this comment

Sepharad,

Thanks for your response.  In many respects we are in agreement.  Horowitz is a non issue for me personally. 

Re the Hamas Charter, you can’t have it both ways.  Either someone is a liar or they are not.  If you insist on believing their writings and their charter (hard to do unless you speak Arabic of course), then you have to give equal weight and credibility to their subsequent statements.

For example, Hamas have said they would support a 2 state solution.  they have also said they would support, albeit grudgingly, the Arab Peace Initiative.  Now you could argue that you can’t trust them, in which case you will be stuck in a stalemate. if Nixon had not traveled to China, where would we be today? Someone has to make the first step and test to see what is real or otherwise.

Hamas are not going to go away.  In fact, groups like Hamas feed of conflict the way the IRA did.  Enemies always talk in the end. 

We were told we would never speak to the Sunni insurgents in Iraq and look what happened.  They were all terrorists remember? 

it is the right wingers who have been proven wrong time and time again. Libia, China, the USSR, the IRA, Vietnam. We were told, especially by the right, that they were all evil. 

The attitudes of Hamas and other Muslim extremists leaves a great deal to be desired, but that is a separate issue.  Ronald Reagan didn’t mind the Taliban. He refereed to the m as freedom fighters who espoused the same ideals as our founding fathers, while these crazies were routinely throwing acid in women’s faces.  And you think the left got it wrong?

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By Sepharad, February 24, 2009 at 9:46 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Shingo,

Thanks to you, I read part of the Horowitz “Big Lies” source Laura used. The early settlement through the ‘48 war bits, particularly re Deir Yassin, had sources that I think even you would acknowledge, particularly the Arab ones. (The 2005 University of Beirut reference was not one I had seen previously, and is causing me to revise my opinion of David Horowitz’s research. Maybe it’s the time he’s put in as a journalist the last 15-20 years. I think he did perhaps lose his bearings during the rapid switch from radical left to center-right as far as issues re Israel were concerned but he’s apparently found a more balanced place. Haven’t read much of his work for a long time. Will have to revisit.) This does not change my basic positions re removing settlers from West Bank and helping Palestinians get their economy going and other things necessary for an independent state—a better-equipped police force and their own army so they don’t have to depend on UN peacekeepers. Also remain completely opposed to invading or attacking Iran.

Re Hamas, their Charter is their Charter and their leaders’ writings are their writings. That never changes. But they are wonderfully skillful at deluding Westerners—particularly dopey and reflexive leftwingers who WANT to be deluded, though I can’t imagine why, given their attitudes toward women and religion and basic freedoms.

Laura—Thanks for the Horowitz link. Will read the rest of it carefully; but the portion on the early settlements and the ‘48 war are very well documented.

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By Shingo, February 24, 2009 at 9:15 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind,

>> Do you advocate Robert following that same advice when he cites radical, clearly anti-semitic sources as well, as clearly biased anti-Israel sources which he does with regularity?  Or are you OK with those?

I must confess to not reading Robert’s sources.  Can you provide me an example?

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By Inherit The Wind, February 24, 2009 at 9:11 pm Link to this comment

Shingo, February 24 at 2:54 pm #

I was expecting to write a part 2 but it turns out that the frontpagemag.com BS was easier to debunk than I expected.

A word of advice Laura.  If you are going to cite sources from rampant Islamophobes, don’t expect to be taken seriously.  Even Shephard regard Horowit as a lunatic, who’s moved so far to the right, he’s off the radar.
*************************************

Do you advocate Robert following that same advice when he cites radical, clearly anti-semitic sources as well, as clearly biased anti-Israel sources which he does with regularity?  Or are you OK with those?

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By Shingo, February 24, 2009 at 8:26 pm Link to this comment

Sepharad,

I didn’t say you had called Pipes a lunatic.  You did make a comment about Horowitz flipping from the left and having lost his bearings.  Sorry for assuming poetic license.

You are of course, entitled to your opinion about not believing a word Hamas says, but then that puts you in awkward position of expalining why you choose to refer to the Hams Charter you and others love to cite.  After all, if Hamas are professional liars, then surely the Charter must be assumed to be another lie, correct?

>> Laura is using some sites that are comparable to the Israelophobe sites you guys resort to all the time.

Please cite which cites are Israelophobe? Criticism of Israeli policy and actions is not Israelophobic. 

And I beg to differ as to the breadth of the range of sources than I have produced. In fact, none of laura’s sources have been mainstream, but blog entries and op-ed.  Her last 5 entries were all copy/pasted from David Horowitiz’s web site.  The one before that cites David Horowitz as a source.

That can hardly be described as a broad range of sources now can it?

I on the other hand, have used Haaretz, Reuters, CNN, IPS, the Guardian to name a few. In fact, I am very conscious of citing mainstream articles so that the Israeli cheerleaders cannot dismiss my sources as biased.

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By Sepharad, February 24, 2009 at 7:02 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Shingo,

I never said Horowitz and Pipes were lunatics. I said that I did not disagree with them and that they were beyond my political pale. I think it WOULD be lunatic to attack Iran and equally lunatic to believe a single word Hamas says. They are professional liars of this highest order—but they have to be talked to and dealt with. Unfortunately.

If I called everyone I disagree with a “lunatic” I couldn’t talk to anyone on this site with a few intellectually independent exceptions.

Laura is using some sites that are comparable to the Israelophobe sites you guys resort to all the time. She also is using a considerably wider range of sources than you’ve produced. Unless something is patently provably untrue, despite this or that bias, it has to be considered.

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By Shingo, February 24, 2009 at 5:56 pm Link to this comment

PatrickHenry,

Don’t underestimate Laura.  masada2000.org is one of the sources listed on her first link:

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory. asp?id=38

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By PatrickHenry, February 24, 2009 at 5:53 pm Link to this comment

Laura, if your going to post from pro-Israel websites, go with the gold.

http://www.masada2000.org/

This is why I believe all oganizations, lobbies, foundations and churches should pay tax.

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By Shingo, February 24, 2009 at 3:54 pm Link to this comment

I was expecting to write a part 2 but it turns out that the frontpagemag.com BS was easier to debunk than I expected.

A word of advice Laura.  If you are going to cite sources from rampant Islamophobes, don’t expect to be taken seriously.  Even Shephard regard Horowit as a lunatic, who’s moved so far to the right, he’s off the radar.

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By Shingo, February 24, 2009 at 3:42 pm Link to this comment

Laura Schneider,

There are so many lies and falsities in your sources that it would take a few days to rebut every one of them, so here is a cursory debunkinig.

Part 1:

>> Whereas Arab prerogatives are exhaustively documented, the Jewish right to this land is almost entirely ignored.

Israel seized th land by war.  Under international law and the Geneva Conventions, this is illegal. Israel’s highest legal authority at the time, Theodore Nerun, said that creating settlements on the West Bank was a violation fo the 4th Geneva Conventions.

>> The State of Israel was created in a peaceful and legal process by the United Nations.

The Israeli founders declared independence before the United Nations legitimized Israel.  The founding fathers were terroritst groups like the Stern Gang, the Urgun and the Hagana, who drove out the British by bombing the King avid Hotel, and murdering British soldiers and boobie trapping their corpses.

The founding statement by the UN declared that the state of Israel would be created in Palestine. No mention is made of the Ottoman Empire.

http://www.wowessays.com/dbase/ad1/avw240.shtml
The canard that there were no “Palestinian” lands at the time because there were no people claiming to be Palestinians is laughable.  No, the Arabs who who lived in the region of Palestine did not considered themselves Syrians. They considered themselves Arabs.
It is true there is no nation called Palestine, because the Israelis have seen to it that no state has been allowed to materialize Beginning in1976, the US has vetoed calls for a 2 state solution.
Avi Schlaim’s suggestion that Israel was the victim of Arab aggression in the Six Day War is easily debunked by a quote from Menachim Begin in a speech delivered at the Israeli National Defense College, clearly stated that: “The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him” (Jerusalem Post, 20 August 1982).
As Menachim Begin tells us, the 1967 war was not a defensive war.  Israel started the war and it’s success was achieved because it was able to catch Egypt and Syria unaware.  Before 1967, Israeli had been goading Nasser into a conflict since 1956.  Israel had also been provoking Syria into a conflict long before 1967.

In 1971, Egypt offered a peace treaty in return for the Sinai under advisement from Washington.  Israel rejected th offer and created settlements on the land.  In 1973, Egypt attacked Israel and nearly won.  It was a diplomatic catastrophe for Israel.  In 1979, Israel and Egypt signed the treaty.  Israel never offered to return Gaza as part of that treaty.
The Arab refugee problem was the result of the ethnic cleansing carried out by the Israeli terrorist groups. Prior to 1948, Arabs outnumbered Jews by 3:1 and the only way of achieving a Jewish state was to remove the Arab population.  This has been documented by historians Illan Pappe and Benny Morris.

The argument that is is legal for the defensive party maintaining occupation in the absence of a peace treaty is ;laughable.  If that were the case, there would be no Israeli settlements in the occupied territories nor a government program offering financial incentives to settlers to create settlements.

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By Shingo, February 24, 2009 at 2:22 pm Link to this comment

Laura Schneider,

All the sources you have provided lead to David Horowitz and Daniel Pipes, both of whom are neocons and proven liars.

Howrowitz and Pipes have instituted a MaCarthy type witch hunt, which victimizes academics that hold views contrary to their own.

Both Pipes and Horowitz were supporters of the Iraq war and were cheerleading an attack on Iran.

Horowitz is so far out of the mainstream that he has become a sad and comic figure.

I will address all the points when I have time.

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By Laura Schneider, February 24, 2009 at 12:09 pm Link to this comment

THE SETTLEMENTS (Part 2 of 2)

It is also legal for the defensive party maintaining occupation in the absence of a peace treaty to take necessary measures to maintain
security. Thus Nahal settlements (for military reasons) are legal according to international law.
International law is also clear that populations that had been dispossessed from their ancestral homes by an offensive action have the right to re-settle their homes when a successful defensive action recaptures the land from which they were driven out. Thus the return of Jews to Hebron, Gush Etzion, and the Jewish Quarter is also legal
under international law.

UN Resolution 242 (November 22, 1967) makes it clear that the purpose of the resolution is to create a just and lasting peace, with guarantees for the territorial inviolability, mutually recognized borders, and political independence of every state in the area. According to Eugene Rostow, one of the drafters of 242, the plain meaning of the resolution is that Israel’s administration of the West Bank and Gaza is completely legal until a just and lasting peace is achieved.

Such administration, in the absence of a peace treaty, and in the face of continued hostility from Arab nations and terrorist groups, can include the development of unoccupied segments for housing a growing population. Such activity is not the same as transporting population to the territory for resettlement. So the third type of settlement
(C) is also legal.

Type D Settlements are more complex. Nothing in the Geneva Convention prohibits voluntary development of the disputed territories. What is prohibited is forced deportations and organized displacement of original populace by a forced settlement of the conquering population. So, to the degree that settlements of Type D are a function of voluntary Israeli settling in areas of the West Bank and Gaza
Strip without the sequestering of Palestinian land and the removal of Palestinian population, these Type D settlements are legal. Moreover, since the West Bank and Gaza were never legally part of any sovereign nation (they were part of British Mandatory Palestine till November 29, 1947, were intended by the UN to be part of a Palestinian State, and were over-run and illegally occupied by Jordan and Egypt in the 1948 war, in stark and defiant violation of the UN partition plan, UN
resolutions 181 and 194, and international law), Israel’s occupation of these territories after the 1967 war does not violate the legal claims of
any nation.

However, since some privately owned Palestinian land was taken by government fiat, and it could be argued that either by complicity or by design the Israeli government sponsored these settlements (thus
making it more of a government plan rather than a voluntary settlement), it seems fair to say that Type D settlements, although legal according to the Fourth Geneva Convention and relevant UN resolutions, may be in a gray area morally.
Rogue settlements (Type E) are palpably illegal. Israeli government officials have referred to them as “rogue” settlements, IDF forces have dismantled some, and Prime Minister Sharon has targeted
some for a similar fate.” (pp. 47-48)

http://www.frontpagemag.com/media/pdf/BigLies.pdf

——————————

So, enough of the Islamic propaganda.  This is the truth—and not from me, but from a credible source

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By Laura Schneider, February 24, 2009 at 12:07 pm Link to this comment

Part 1 of 2

THE SETTLEMENTS
There are five types of settlements: A. Agrarian settlements for military purposes manned mostly by soldiers; B. Settlements of Jews returning to sites occupied by Jews prior to 1948 (Hebron, Gush Etzion, Jewish Quarter of East Jerusalem);
C. Expanding suburbs of Israeli cities on or near the “Green Line;” D. Settlements unrelated to the previous three types; E. Illegal rogue settlements.” (p. 42)

—-snip—-

“Regarding terr"itory conquered in a defensive action, the Charter of the League of Nations (the same one which gave Britain the right to establish a Mandatory Government over Palestine and which declared that British Mandatory Palestine was to be the homeland of the Jewish people) indicates that the disposition of such territory will be part of
the peace treaty between the warring parties. In the absence of such a treaty, the disposition of these territories remains in dispute. Such
territories should be referred to as “disputed territories,” not “occupied territories.” Their continued occupation by the defensive party is legal.

Since the wars in 1948 and 1967 were defensive, Israel’s occupation of territories beyond the l947 partition boundaries and 1949 armistice boundaries is completely legal. The Charter of the United Nations accepts, and with no authority to change it, the Charter of the League of Nations. So the League of Nations Charter is still international
law, and offers a congruent and rational balance to the 4th Geneva Convention (i.e., the Charter describes the rights of a nation occupying
territory in a defensive action, and the Convention describes the limitations placed upon a nation occupying territory in an offensive action). Both are valid under international law.” )pp. 46-47)

(cont’d)
http://www.frontpagemag.com/media/pdf/BigLies.pdf

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By Laura Schneider, February 24, 2009 at 11:48 am Link to this comment

“International Law and Israeli Sovereignty
Even one of the most critical of Israel’s historians, Professor Avi Schlaim, acknowledges that Israel was the victim of Arab aggression in the Six Day War. This is a crucial point in regard to the issue of Israeli settlements in and sovereignty over the West Bank and Gaza Strip. International law is very clear. Had Israel been the aggressor, its occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip would have been illegal, as would all future expansion of Israeli population into these territories.

However, as the victim of aggression, Israel’s legal position is exactly the opposite. The legal disposition of territories conquered in a defensive war can be determined only by a peace treaty between
the belligerents. If such a peace treaty is absent, the continued sovereignty and economic activities of the victim of aggression over its newly won territories is completely legal as long as such activity does not unfavorably prejudice the indigenous inhabitants. In fact Israel’s sovereignty over the West Bank and Gaza Strip was beneficial, as we shall see, until their administration was turned over to the Palestinian
Authority under the Oslo Agreements.

Immediately after the war, Israel offered to return conquered territory in exchange for a formal peace. The Arab nations rejected this offer, as they rejected similar offers after the previous Arab-initiated wars. Israel could legally have annexed all the newly won territories, but chose not to because it expected that eventually the aggressor
nations would come to their senses and want their land back, and Israel would return some of these territories to their former occupiers in exchange for peace.

Israel did exactly this with Egypt, returning all of Sinai at the Camp David I accords in 1979. In these accords Egyptian leader Anwar es-Sadat refused to accept the Gaza Strip back, preferring
that the Palestinians who lived there remain under Israeli sovereignty.

When Jordan agreed to a peace treaty in 1994, King Hussein specifically excluded the West Bank from consideration, because by then 96% of Palestinians in the area were under the rule of the Palestinian
Authority, and Hussein conceded that he had no legal claim to the area or its Arab population.
In sum, Israel is the only known country in all of history to come into existence via legal and beneficial land development (as opposed to the almost universal method of conquest). Israel’s victory in the 1948 war and in the 1967 war, in which it was the victim of genocidal aggression, and the refusal of Arab nations to join it in peace
negotiations, give Israel the legal right to maintain its sovereignty over its newly won territories, and to develop those territories in any manner that is not prejudicial to the well-being of the indigenous civilians.

Had Arab leaders been amenable to peace with Israel, there could have been a Palestinian state in 1937, and again in 1947, and again in 1949;
and there would never have been an Arab refugee problem. Had Arab leadership in 1967 and again in 2000 been amenable to peace with Israel, there would never have been a continued Israeli sovereignty over the disputed territories of the West Bank and Gaza.

With this historical framework in place, one can understand the real issues behind the controversy over Israeli settlements in the West Bank and Gaza Strip and the legal status of the settlements.”

http://www.frontpagemag.com/media/pdf/BigLies.pdf
pp. 40-42

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By Laura Schneider, February 24, 2009 at 11:37 am Link to this comment

http://www.frontpagemag.com/media/pdf/BigLies.pdf
p. 38

“Even today, Syrian 5th Grade social studies textbooks show ‘Greater Syria’ as Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Israel. There is no nation called Palestine. The concept of ‘Palestinians’ as Arabs living for millennia in ‘historic Palestine’ is a fiction created for the political and military purposes described by Zahir Muhse’in. This latter
day frenzy of Palestinian agitations for national self-determination is simply the faux mantle of respectability behind which genocidal Arab terrorism can be perpetrated against Israel with the support of international do-gooders and ‘dealists.’ After the Holocaust, Western
liberals cannot look kindly upon genocidal terrorism; but they can embrace warmly and enthusiastically the deep and heartfelt yearnings
of an oppressed people struggling to be free. Hence, Arafat’s terrorist propagandists needed to invent the lies of Palestinian National Identity
and Israeli occupation and oppression.”

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By Laura Schneider, February 24, 2009 at 10:48 am Link to this comment

http://www.frontpagemag.com/media/pdf/BigLies.pdf

“BIG LIES:  Demolishing The Myths of the Propaganda War Against Israel” by David Meir-Levi

“...Origins of the Problem

The State of Israel was created in a peaceful and legal process by the United Nations. It was not created out of Palestinian lands. It was created out of the Ottoman Empire, ruled for four hundred years by the Turks who lost it when they were defeated in World War I. There were no “Palestinian” lands at the time because there were no people claiming to be Palestinians. There were Arabs who lived in the region of Palestine who considered themselves Syrians. It was only after World War I that the present states of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq were also created – and also created artificially out of the Turkish Empire by the British and French victors. Jordan was created on about 80 percent of the Palestine Mandate, which was originally designated by the League of Nations as part of the Jewish homeland. Since then, Jews have been prohibited from owning property there. Two-thirds of its citizens are Palestinian Arabs, but it is muled by a Hashemite monarchy….”

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By Laura Schneider, February 24, 2009 at 10:18 am Link to this comment

Since you are “awed by my ignorance,” perhaps a more credible source will help:

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=38

A shipped:

“The view that the Middle East peace process ... is essentially a mechanism for the vindication of Palestinian rights over the West Bank and Gaza is widely held ... in Western Europe, where an awareness of Israel’s legitimate claims and entitlements has been a casualty of the predominantly left-wing media’s embrace of the Palestinian cause. Whereas Arab prerogatives are exhaustively documented, the Jewish right to this land is almost entirely ignored. The anniversaries this month of three of the founding documents of the modern Middle East present an opportunity to redress the balance and reassert the Israeli case.”

Let’s see just how “open-minded” you guys are.  Will you bother to read it?  Probably not.

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By Shingo, February 23, 2009 at 3:16 pm Link to this comment

Laura Schneider,

According to former Israeli foreign minister, Shlomo Ben Ami, if he were palestinains he too woudl have rejected the Camp david offer because it was so woefulyl inadequte. Remember, we are talking about 80% of 20% of the land the Palestinains are legally entitled to.

In fact, following the collapse of the Camp David talks, Clinton even realized that offer was ridiculous so he came up with tht Clinton Parameters.  These were accepted by both sides, and discussed at Tabba.  In fact, both sides Barak and Arraft, said that if they had had only a few more days, they woudl have reached an agreement.

It was Barak who broke the talks off early because of the forth coming Israeli elections.  Sharon subsequently won and suspended the peace process in formaldehyde.


because the Palestinians would not accept anything short of the dissolution of Israel and the right of return of all Palestinians to what they call Palestine, which is the State of Israel plus the West Bank and Gaza.  The U.S. and Israel have done everything possible to try to resolve this, but the Palestinians are determined to have “all or nothing at all.”

Bill Clinton came close with Arafat, who conveniently died and left the power vacuum for Hamas to move in.

Hamas does not want peace.  They want the total destruction of the State of Israel.  And they will not stop until they are stopped or they reach that goal.

There endeth the lesson.

Patrick Martin is a reporter working for a pro Israeli news source.  His finding have been contradicted by the UN’s own investigation.

So far there have been NO credible reports contadicting what has been reported by Truthdig.

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By PatrickHenry, February 23, 2009 at 2:53 pm Link to this comment

By Laura Schneider, February 23 at 6:46 am #

I am awed by your ignorance of the facts.

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By Laura Schneider, February 23, 2009 at 7:46 am Link to this comment

SIngo,

The Palestinians do not have an “official” state because the Palestinians would not accept anything short of the dissolution of Israel and the right of return of all Palestinians to what they call Palestine, which is the State of Israel plus the West Bank and Gaza.  The U.S. and Israel have done everything possible to try to resolve this, but the Palestinians are determined to have “all or nothing at all.”

Bill Clinton came close with Arafat, who conveniently died and left the power vacuum for Hamas to move in.

Hamas does not want peace.  They want the total destruction of the State of Israel.  And they will not stop until they are stopped or they reach that goal.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 22, 2009 at 7:36 am Link to this comment

PatrickHenry, February 21 at 4:54 pm #

By Inherit The Wind, February 21 at 2:48 pm #

I don’t support Saudia Arabia one bit, however they don’t have a history of slaughtering their neighbors children.  That carries alot of weight with me.

Just another religion out of control.
**************************************************
Fair enough.  But they fund people who kill other people’s children. 
Syria does have such a record.
So, of course, does Sudan. Nothing can justify to me what Bashir is doing.

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By PatrickHenry, February 21, 2009 at 5:54 pm Link to this comment

By Inherit The Wind, February 21 at 2:48 pm #

I don’t support Saudia Arabia one bit, however they don’t have a history of slaughtering their neighbors children.  That carries alot of weight with me.

Just another religion out of control.

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By Shingo, February 21, 2009 at 5:53 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind,

>> I have no problem with one tiny slip of land smaller than New Jersey being the only one on Earth that is a safe-haven for Jews, as long as native-born inhabitants are all full citizens with full civil rights.

Fair enough, but a state cannot be religious theocracy and a democracy at the same time.  It’s about time Israel dropped the pretense that is democratic.

Saudi Arabia’s is a vile blight on humanity, but the fact is that what takes place in Saudi Aabia is their business. Saudi Arabia’s religious state does not exist at the expense of another population.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 21, 2009 at 3:52 pm Link to this comment

Shingo, February 21 at 2:27 pm #

Inherit the wind,

Unlike Laura, you are frank and honest in your allegiance to Israel and interestingly, much more balance in your assessment of the conflict.

One can support Israel and still be rational.  You deserve credit for that, because supporters like you is what Israel really needs.
********************************************

Thanks. I, of course, agree—that’s why I have the views I have—they are based on my premises.  There’s a big difference from me, who wants simply one safe-haven for Jews in this world, and a Netanyahu and his putzy followers who see non-Jews as less than human and want a biblically based pipe-dream that’s going to get a lot of people good, evil and just plain innocent killed.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 21, 2009 at 3:48 pm Link to this comment

PatrickHenry, February 21 at 10:14 am #

By Inherit The Wind, February 21 at 7:06 am #

Since you were playing “what if”.

To justify premeditated murder based on perceptions or based on the same type of slanted intelligence which got us into Iraq is nothing new.

In your “what if” scenario, your obvious paranoia becomes your justification to attack.  It all stems from your onging dispute with your neighbor which you fail to mention.  If you were running a crack house in my neighborhood, I would be throwing the first cocktail.  “Dirty drug pushers”.

Use of the term “dirty jew” is just PR spin on your part in an ongoing attempt to link jews everywhere to criticism against Israel and its lack of rule of law.

You attempt to create the stigma that jews cannot be independent from what that nations foreign policy and it crimes.

If jews can have a “jews only” homeland then it isn’t a democracy.  Where does it stop?  A nazi only homeland, a catholics only homeland,  a jewish zionist banker homeland.

Many jewish people choose not to live in Israel for good reason.
***********************************************

Boy, you’re like a Kewpie Doll with a “kick me!” sign! Your hypocrisy is hilarious.

How many nations around Israel are self-declared Moslem nations?  Yet you say nothing about them.  In Saudi Arabia, you can’t even be a citizen if you are not a Moslem.  How many of them explicitly allow Christians or Jews to be full citizens?  How many declare it a crime to try to convert a Moslem away from Islam and a CAPITAL CRIME for a Moslem to convert to Christianity?

The blatant intolerance of other religions in most of the Moslem states in the world rivals the Christians in medieval Europe.  While many of the European states STILL are nominally officially Christian (Like Britain, Holland, Belgium, Norway, Sweden, Spain, etc—because they have monarchs and the monarchs MUST be Christian) at least in actual law Christians can have no privilege.

I have no problem with one tiny slip of land smaller than New Jersey being the only one on Earth that is a safe-haven for Jews, as long as native-born inhabitants are all full citizens with full civil rights.

It won’t keep me up at night.  You, OTOH, have got to figure out how to justify Saudi Arabia, Yemen and all the other Moslem states can justify THEIR bigotry and suppression of other religions.  That’s your bed.  You made it. You sleep in it.

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By Shingo, February 21, 2009 at 3:27 pm Link to this comment

Inherit the wind,

Unlike Laura, you are frank and honest in your allegiance to Israel and interestingly, much more balance in your assessment of the conflict.

One can support Israel and still be rational.  You deserve credit for that, because supporters like you is what Israel really needs.

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By PatrickHenry, February 21, 2009 at 11:14 am Link to this comment

By Inherit The Wind, February 21 at 7:06 am #

Since you were playing “what if”.

To justify premeditated murder based on perceptions or based on the same type of slanted intelligence which got us into Iraq is nothing new.

In your “what if” scenario, your obvious paranoia becomes your justification to attack.  It all stems from your onging dispute with your neighbor which you fail to mention.  If you were running a crack house in my neighborhood, I would be throwing the first cocktail.  “Dirty drug pushers”. 

Use of the term “dirty jew” is just PR spin on your part in an ongoing attempt to link jews everywhere to criticism against Israel and its lack of rule of law. 

You attempt to create the stigma that jews cannot be independent from what that nations foreign policy and it crimes.

If jews can have a “jews only” homeland then it isn’t a democracy.  Where does it stop?  A nazi only homeland, a catholics only homeland,  a jewish zionist banker homeland.

Many jewish people choose not to live in Israel for good reason.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 21, 2009 at 8:06 am Link to this comment

PatrickHenry, February 20 at 2:32 pm #

By Inherit The Wind, February 20 at 12:19 pm #


To add to Laura’s analogy:

Here’s a “what if” scenario.

Your house is bulldozed and the land taken from you and your family by “Israeli” settlers.  They are willing to kill you if you protest too much.

*************************************************

Haven’t I stated REPEATEDLY that I am opposed to continuing the settlements?  That they should be returned to the Palestinians? 

Or did you deliberately ignore that I have said that repeatedly with some sort of cognitive dissonance?

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By Shingo, February 20, 2009 at 7:32 pm Link to this comment

Laura

There are no territorial disputes. The land is occupied and there are over 90 UN Security Counsel Resolutions calling for Israel to withdraw from these territories. The term “disputes” is Zionist weasel word for land it stole and doesn’t ant to give back.  The West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem were never part of Israel.

as to what those are between the Palestinians and Israel.  It is true that no Arab stet has been created.  Israel policy has been to prevent it’s creation.  Since 1976, the US has vetoes Un resolutions calling for a 2 state solution and last December, both Israel and the US veto’d a resolution granting the Palestinian the right to self determination.

In 2005, Israeli forces withdrew from the Gaza Strip, but as was documented by in the boko, “Lord of the Land”, (the only scholarly account of the process), Israel never released it’s suffocating grip on Gaza and left with a scorched earth policy as they withdrew.

Hamas won the elections in January of 2006, and from that moment on, the stranglehold on Gaza moved from brutal to deranged.  The Palestinians apparently took democracy to mean that they could vote for whom they wanted, and Israel punished them for it.  The 2007 civil war was in fact a US and Israeli sponsored coup to overthrow Hamas.

The reason the Palestinian territories have split into two entities is because Israel are orchestrating this outcome.  It’s divide and rule. The goasl is obvious.  Israel know they will not get everything they ant by negotiating with Hamas, so they are working to isolate Fatah and weaken them so that they can force a more attractive deal down the Palestinians throat.

But Israel’s borders are clear-cut.  They lie according to the green line as per 1967.  The do not include the west Bank or East Jerusalem, but refuse to let go of these territories.

The Palestinian territory is not an official state because Israel and the US have blocked all the means to allow it to come to pass.  The territory is not in dispute.  As Israel’s highest legal counsel warned the Israeli leadership that building on the cccupied territories was a breach of the 4th article of the Geneva Conventions. The settlements are illegal even according to Israel’s Supreme court.

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By Laura Schneider, February 20, 2009 at 5:28 pm Link to this comment

As for Israel having internationally recognized borders, this is not true.  There are some territorial disputes as to what those are between the Palestinians and Israel.  However, the state of Palestine did not exist as an independent country EVER. 

“Egypt occupied the Gaza Strip and Jordan occupied the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and no Arab state was created. In 1950, Jordan annexed the territories it occupied;[citation needed] this annexation was officially recognized only by the United Kingdom.” (Wiki)

The territory the Palestinians occupy now were originally held by Jordan (West Bank), Eqypt (Sinai) and Syria (Golan Heights), and after the 1967 war, and annexed by Israel, who offered this land back in exchange for peace, which the Arab states refused.

“Israel returned the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt in 1979 in exchange for a peace treaty. While that treaty mentioned a “linkage” between Israeli-Egyptian peace and Palestinian autonomy, the formerly Egyptian-occupied territory in Gaza was excluded from the agreement, and remained under Israeli control.” (Wiki)

“The Oslo Accords of the early 1990s between the Palestine Liberation Organization and Israel led to the creation of the Palestinian Authority. This was an INTERIM organization created to administer a limited form of Palestinian self-governance in the territories for a period of five years during which final-status negotiations would take place. The Palestinian Authority carried civil responsibility in some rural areas, as well as security responsibility in the major cities of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Although the five-year interim period expired in 1999, the final status agreement has yet to be concluded despite attempts such as the 2000 Camp David Summit, the Taba summit, and the unofficial Geneva Accords.

In 2005, Israeli forces withdrew from the Gaza Strip, ceding full effective internal control of the territory to the Palestinian Authority.

Since the Battle of Gaza (2007) the two separate territories, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, are divided into a Hamas leadership in the Gaza Strip and a Fatah civil leadership in the autonomous areas of the West Bank. Each sees itself as the administrator of all Palestinian territories and does not acknowledge the other one as the official government of the territories. The Palestinian territories have therefore de facto split into two entities.” (Wiki)

So, in short, even the Palestinians can’t agree and recognize who exactly is in control of the territory they occupy.

But Israel’s borders are relatively clear-cut after the treaties between itself and Egypt, Syria and Jordan.  The Palestinian territory is not an official state YET.  And until it is, the ownership of its territories is not official and in dispute.

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By Sepharad, February 20, 2009 at 5:26 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Shingo,

No, it doesn’t mean that Israel supports Al Quaeda. It means that Bibi is an idiot and Livni, Mofaz and Barak are right to reject posts in his government. As Tzipi put it, “We weren’t elected to be a figleaf for a rightwing government.”

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By Shingo, February 20, 2009 at 5:08 pm Link to this comment

PatrickHenry,

“Your house is bulldozed and the land taken from you and your family by “Israeli” settlers.  They are willing to kill you if you protest too much.”

Just ask Rachel Corrie.  Ooops, you can’t.  She’s dead.

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By Shingo, February 20, 2009 at 5:06 pm Link to this comment

Sepharad,

Yes I am fully aware of the Mufti of Jerusalem, the Zionists second favorite boogie man after Amadinejad. What this proves is that this asshole sided with the Nazis.  So did George Bush’s grandfather, yet no one blamed Bush for that did they?

Israeli founding fathers murdered British soldiers in 1947.  They bombed the Kind David Hotel and celebrated the anniversary of that terrorist act in 2006, which the Brits were very insulted about.  What other country has celebrates he anniversary of a terrorist act?

Hell, Bibbi is the only political leader in the world who said that 911 was a good thing. Does that mean that Israel supports Al Qaeda?

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By Shingo, February 20, 2009 at 5:01 pm Link to this comment

Laura

Part 3

Of course, the state that does not exist, is Palestine, because Israel has not recognised the right of Palestinians to their own state.  In fact, the recent elections have put a leader into power who does not even support the 2 state solution

I agree that the Palestinians have had the same choice for decades now, but the way you seem to believe.  Either die quietly or go down fighting.  Of course, bombing building and comiting acts of terrorism worked for the founding fathers of Israel, you can hardly blame the Palestinians for hoping such tactics would yield the same result

The charges against Israel are a matter of record.  They killed 17,000 people in Lebanon etween 1982 and 2000.  They killed a further 1300 in Lebanon in 2006.  They just killed 1300 in Gaza in December. Even in the West Bank, from where no rockets are fired, Israel killed 400 Palestinains in 2008 alone.  This is not fantasy, it is a statistical fact.  Israel have over ten thousand Arbas in prisons, 36o of them children.  These are numbers according to Israel’s own statistics.  Israel has horrid torture chambers, which were recently exposed.  It boats of it’s right to carry out extra judicial killings, torture and kidnapping.  On top of that, it routinely highjacks ships in international waters and this week, admitted to carrying out terrorist attacks inside Iran.

Israel has not gone to great lengths to avoid killing Palestinian civilians.  IN fact, Isrle has always tergetted civilians and it’s leaders have admitted to doing so.

Here are just some of them:

“Since 1948, we have been fighting against a population that lives in towns and villages.”
Mordecai Gur(Israeli politician and the 10th Chief of Staff of the IDF)

“The Israeli army has always struck civilian populations, purposely and consciously. The army has never distinguished civilian from military targets, but has purposely attacked civilian targets.”
Ze’ev Shiff (Israeli journalist and military correspondent for Ha’aretz. )

“There was a rational prospect, ultimately fulfilled, that affected populations would exert pressure for the cessation of hostilities, satisfying Israel’s goals.”
Abba Eben (Israeli diplomat and politician)

Commenting on a speech by Menachem Begin, that resented a picture, Eben said, “of an Israel wantonly inflicting every possible measure of death an anguish on civilian populations, in mood reminiscent of regimes which neither Mr Begin nor I would dare to mention by name”

The only sources that say Hamas has used its own people as human shields have been Israeli sources.  The used the same propaganda in Lebanon in 2006 and it was later revealed to be unsupported by the evidence.

Here are some links:

Amnesty and HRW Claims Discredited in Detailed Report
http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/amnesty_and_hrw_claims_discredited_in_detailed_report

Human Rights Watch: Troubling Report
http://www.nysun.com/opinion/human-rights-watch-troubling-report/46037/

Israeli ‘human shield’ claim is full of holes
http://www.thenational.ae/article/20090113/FOREIGN/591536290/1002

Ironically, the IDF has been exposed to use human shields itself.

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By Sepharad, February 20, 2009 at 3:46 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Shingo,

Mufti of Jerusalem did absolutely everything he could for Germans in WWII, both in Europe and in Mideast/North Africa. Shenonymous has posted details elsewhere on this. Hell, it’s probably even in Wikipedia if that’s as far as your research ever takes you.

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By Laura Schneider, February 20, 2009 at 3:44 pm Link to this comment

Part 2:

In January 2006, Hamas was successful in the Palestinian parliamentary elections, taking 76 of the 132 seats in the chamber, while the previous ruling Fatah party took 43. (Who are Hamas?”. BBC News. January 26, 2006) After Hamas’s election victory, violent and non-violent infighting arose between Hamas and Fatah. (“The Gangs of Gaza”, Newsweek, June 26, 2006.; “...they find themselves on the brink of civil war in a power struggle between the governing Hamas movement and President Mahmoud Abbas’s Fatah group. In two days of fighting between the two rival and well-armed factions, 12 Palestinians have been killed and more than 100 wounded, and there are few signs the months-long political dispute at the centre of the violence is about to die down.” al-Mughrabi, Nidal and Assadi, Mohammed. Palestinian in-fighting provokes despair, frustration, Reuters, October 3, 2006.) Following the Battle of Gaza in June 2007, elected Hamas officials were ousted from their positions in the Palestinian National Authority government in the West Bank and replaced by rival Fatah members and independents. Hamas retained control of Gaza.(Carter: Stop favoring Fatah over Hamas The Jerusalem Post June 19, 2007; Exposing the bitter truth of Gaza carnage The Age June 23, 2007) On June 18, 2007, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas (Fatah) issued a decree outlawing the Hamas militia.(CNN - Abbas outlaws Hamas militia forces) Israel immediately thereafter imposed an economic blockade on Gaza, and Hamas has repeatedly launched rocket attacks upon areas of Israel near its border with Gaza because of the blockade. (“Gaza faces economic disaster if blockade continues, U.N. official warns” International Herald Tribune) After the end of a 5-month ceasefire the conflict escalated, and Israel invaded Hamas-ruled Gaza in late December, 2008. The Gaza conflict concluded in mid-January, 2009. (“Israel withdraws its troops from Gaza” Times Online)”

So, more of your bunk discredited.

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By Laura Schneider, February 20, 2009 at 3:43 pm Link to this comment

Part 1:

You love to obfuscate and misrepresent what was said, but the example I gave with the Indians is that WE forced THEM from their homes in the first place, albeit we did “win” the various wars against the Indians, therefore, if they were to decry “right of return,” it would mean our abandoning our homes and relinquishing them back to the Indians.

“Israel has elected 2 terrorist leaders and a war criminal to the office of Prime Minister”

By whose definition?  The OIC’s?

As far as the nonsense about Israel creating Hamas, please do a little research.  Here is the “watered-down” version for your quick perusal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

“Hamas meaning “Islamic Resistance Movement”) is an Islamic Palestinian socio-political organization which includes a paramilitary force, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades. (“Hamas leader condemns Islamist charity blacklist”. Reuters. 2007-08-23. http://www.reuters.com/article/homepageCrisis/idUSL23611943._CH_.2400. Retrieved on 2009-01-28.; ^ Hider, James (2007-10-12). “Islamist leader hints at Hamas pull-out from Gaza”. The Times Online. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article2641289.ece. Retrieved on 2009-01-28.) Since June 2007, Hamas has governed the Gaza portion of the Palestinian Territories.

Hamas was created in 1987 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi and Mohammad Taha of the Palestinian wing of Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood at the beginning of the First Intifada, an uprising against Israeli rule in the Palestinian Territories. Hamas launched numerous suicide bombings against Israel, (“Best known for the violence it launched against Israel through suicide bombings and rocket attacks… ” (Murphy, John.; “Hamas aims for political might”, The Baltimore Sun, January 22, 2006); “To the outside world, Hamas is best-known — infamous — for its reliance on suicide bombers.” (Palestinian territories:Inside Hamas,PBS FRONTLINE:World, May 9, 2006)) the first of them in April, 1993. (Hamas” Council on Foreign Relations. Updated January 7, 2009) Hamas ceased the attacks in 2005 and renounced them in April 2006. (Hamas in call to end suicide bombings” The Observer. April 9, 2006) Hamas has also been responsible for Israel-targeted rocket attacks, IED attacks, and shootings, but reduced most of those operations in 2005 and 2006. (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/hamas.htm HAMAS (Islamic Resistance Movement))

Continued on part 2 above

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By PatrickHenry, February 20, 2009 at 3:32 pm Link to this comment

By Inherit The Wind, February 20 at 12:19 pm #


To add to Laura’s analogy:

Here’s a “what if” scenario.

Your house is bulldozed and the land taken from you and your family by “Israeli” settlers.  They are willing to kill you if you protest too much.

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By Shingo, February 20, 2009 at 3:13 pm Link to this comment

Laura

Part 2

Your ignorance of history also undermines your argument.

The Palestinians backed no one in WWII.  In WWI, they actually supported the British and were promised their own state in return for driving our the Ottoman Empire from Palestine.  They never got their state.

I any case, whether he Palestinians screwed up or not is irrelevant.  The creation of the state of Israel by the Un stipulated explicitly that that Arabs were to be respected and not inconvenienced by the creation of Israel. Tehre was no clause that mentioned anything about punishing the Palestinains for backing the wrong side, so that is an irrelevant carnard – one of many you continually cite.

As for the peace process, there isn’t one.  Dov Weisglass told the world that Sharon would suspend the peace process in formaldehyde and Israel has done just that ever since. The firing of rockets is and suicide attacks is unfortunate, but Israel has always chosen expansion over peace.

It’s a pa f the record that Israel tried to get rid of the PLO in 1982 because the PLO advocated a 2 state solution and Israel’s hard liners wanted to avert the danger of a political settlement.  It then helped create Hamas to counter the influence of the PLO.  Not that the PLO has been belittled into a puppet, Israel is targeting Hamas, because Hamas have also backed a 2 state solution and given support to eh peace initiative to recognise Israel as per the 1967 borders.

And please, don’t give us this garbage about the Palestinians having chosen political “parties” that support terror.  Israel has elected 2 terrorist leaders and a war criminal to the office of Prime Minister.

The Palestinians were indeed the first occupants of Palestine.  Arab ton like Jericho date back 4 or 5 millenia, long before Judaism was created.

>> If American Indians started launching rockets into our cities, bombing buildings and sending suicide bombers onto our buses and into our public buildings, would that be OK with you?

Doesn’t it depend on what happened before?  Israeli supporters always insist that history begins the moment Israel is hurt. I doubt the Germans would have liked it if Poland had done it, but would you argue that Poland had no reason to?

>> Would you be crying out for all Americans to abandon their homes, including yours, to relinquish their property to its “rightful” owners? 

No in the case of the Palestinians, they did not abandon their homes.  Historians Illan Pape and Benny Morris have documented that 800,000 Arabs were driven ot of their homes by the Zionst terror groups.  Like Moshe Dayan said, you won’t find any Arab villages in Israel anymore because Israel took them.

Every credible Israel historian aknowledges this took place, so you had better get up to speed with reality. You’re just revealing yourself to be an ideological extremist by ignoring it.

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By Shingo, February 20, 2009 at 2:50 pm Link to this comment

Laura,

Part 1

The fact that Israel’s population is primarily Jewish is beside the point.  It is a Zionist state and Zionism itself it a political aetheistic movement.

Too many of Israel’s defenders jump to the anti Smemitic defense the same way right wing Americans will exploit the concept of patriotism to marginalize their political opponents.  One need only look at China, another country often cited for it’s human rights abuses.  When was the last time a defender of China argued that criticism was based on hatred of Chinese?

Anti-Semitism is and should continue to be a very serious charge, but the context in which it is used is rarely correct or appropriate, but merely as a means of stifling debate.

Yo see Laura, not only do many Zionists or Israeli apologists abuse the term anti-Semtitism, they also insist on using the straw man argument that critics of Israel do not believe Israel has the right to exist.

For the record, I am not opposed to the existence of Israel, though the notion of Israel’s right to exist is absurd.  It is a false argument again used to stifle or negate criticism of Israel.  You will not find any statement from me in any of my posts that even suggests Israel should not exist, but that’s beside the point. When China, the US, Iran or Zimbabwe are criticized, never is the existence of these states brought into question by it’s defenders.

In fact, it could be argued that no state has he right to exist because it doesn’t need one.  Israel exists as do other states and that’s all there is to it.

Your false statement that the “Arabs”, whoever the Arabs might be, claim otherwise is compete bunk.  Six years ago, the Arab League produced a peace initiative to recognize Israel (as per the 1967 borders), which Israel rejected.  Now the 1967 borders the same Israel as was created per the UN decree.  The West Bank is not Israel, nor is East Jerusalem.  Israel in over 60 years old and has no internationally recognised borders, because Israel is trying to change the facts on the ground.

There are over 90 UNSC Resolutions calling for Israel to return to the 1967 borders, which Israel ignores. And no, to the victor do not go the spoils.  Before the Geneva Conventions and the concept of international law, perhaps this was accepted, but seizing land by means of war is illegal in this day and age, and for good reason.  Were it not so, every small country in the world would be in under permanent thread o occupation and seizure from the larger states, and no one could do anything about it.  In fact, the State of Israel itself would still be up for grabs to anyone with the means of wrestling it from Israel.?

Is that what you are advocating?

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By Inherit The Wind, February 20, 2009 at 1:19 pm Link to this comment

To add to Laura’s analogy:

Here’s a “what if” scenario.


If my neighbor and I have been having a running dispute, and suppose one day I see him filling up bottles of gasoline and sticking rags in them.

I overhear him saying to his brother “Let’s get our other brothers and our cousins and burn that dirty Jew next door out. Let’s make sure he and his family are cooked to a crisp.”

Then I see he and his family are lining up near the property line and he’s instructing them on how to fling the molotovs to do the most damage.  I call the cops but it turns out the cops are paid off by my neighbor and his brother and his cousins.

Next I see him see lift a bottle, light it and say “OK everybody, let’s burn those dirty Jews out now, on three. One-two…”  but before he gets to “three” I shoot him down and some of the others about to throw their Molotov Cocktails at my house.

Now his brothers and cousins who survive run away and then complain to the world that I’m a murderer and an aggressor and what they did on their brother’s property was none of my business.

THAT is how Shingo condemns Israel for it’s attack on Egypt in 1967, saying their massing militarily on the Israeli border was not an act of war, their calls for the destruction of Israel was not an act of war and that Israel had NO RIGHT to attack them before they actually invaded or fired a shot.

Yeah. So I’m supposed to wait for the @$$hole to actually THROW the Molotov before I can stop him, by which time, it’s too late and my house is on fire.

There’s the flaw in the logic.

Now I’m sure someone will try to show how this is irrelevant, but it’s not.  Because LAW is always about what happens when the situation is same but the context is different….such as if OJ Simpson was White and his dead wife and her friend were Black would that same jury have acquitted him?  If the answer is “yes” then justice was done.  If the answer is “no” then it wasn’t. Law is ONLY supposed to allow a different outcome if a KEY factor is different.  Was the threat real or not? Was it real enough to the person threatened?

If a cop has a gun fired at him and he shoots the person, does it matter if the gun was empty but he didn’t know it? How about if the gun was merely pointed at him but was empty, but he didn’t know it?  How about if it was a toy gun that looked real?

If you change the context (such as Laura suggests with Native Americans firing rockets on Boise or Syracuse) does the morality change? 

Or is it, as I so often see, simply situational ethics?

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By Laura Schneider, February 20, 2009 at 10:18 am Link to this comment

Part 2:

And as for ownership rights.  Let’s compare the Palestinians to the American Indian (although even this is not a clear comparison, since historically the Palestinians were not the first occupants of the territory of the State of Israel).  If American Indians started launching rockets into our cities, bombing buildings and sending suicide bombers onto our buses and into our public buildings, would that be OK with you?  Would you be crying out for all Americans to abandon their homes, including yours, to relinquish their property to its “rightful” owners?  Of course not.  And, being part Cherokee, I will be the first to say that if this were the way the world worked, the American Indian is perhaps the ethnicity against which we have transgressed the most.  But that is another discussion topic.

The bottom line is that what is, is.  The State of Israel does exist.  And the Palestinians have had the same choice for decades now:  either accept what is and make the best deal possible for your people, or cling to the delusion that if you send enough rockets into Israel or bomb enough buildings or send enough suicide bombers, that somehow your “rights” will be restored and your land returned.  It’s not going to happen.

And your charges against Israel as being monsters who have done atrocities against Palestinians is an exercise in fastasy spawned by the excellent PR of the OIC, the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, et al.  Israel has gone to great lengths to avoid killing Palestinian civilians by dropping leaflets and broadcasting warnings of coming attacks.  Hamas has used its own people as human shields by launching rockets from homes, school, hospitals, mosques, etc., knowing it would cause civilians to be injured or killed, then playing the victim when Israelis took defensive action to stop the attacks.  The Israelis certain have the military capacity to bomb the Palestinians into oblivion if they so chose, but they have not.  And if YOUR home was being bombed by the American Indian, I don’t think you would be chanting “right of return” for the American Indian, now, would you?  Honestly?  It’s easy to take sides when none of your hard-earned land or possessions is threatened, isn’t it?

If the truth be told, much of the support for the Palestinians and the American government’s weak, passive position is based on our dependence on foreign oil, particularly Middle Eastern oil.

The rest of the antiIsraeli sentiment can be traced to the obvious bias of the extreme liberal press.

And that’s the truth.

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By Laura Schneider, February 20, 2009 at 10:01 am Link to this comment

This comment is in two parts:

Well, I am more than amused at this very distorted “definition” of racism.  To say that blacks or any other ethnic group cannot be racist is pure fantasy.  What of the black on Asian conflicts in the inner city?  Both groups consider themselves superior to the other race and justify their violence against each other on that basis alone.  Is that not racism?  What about the black v. Hispanic conflicts?  Same deal.

The real definition of racism was given to us by perhaps the most qualified person possible, Martin Luther King:

“Judging anyone [to be superior or inferior] based on the color of their skin [or their religion or their country of origin or their gender or their sexual preference] AND not the content of their character is racism.  Pure and simple.  And, by MLK’s definition, ANYONE can be a racist.

Now, let’s examine the terms anti-Semitic and anti-Israeli.  It is true that the terms have been used interchangeably, but that is not a complete error since Israel is a Jewish state.  Yes, it does have Arabs and other religions living there, but it is a Jewish state.  Likewise, anti-Semitism is universally accepted to mean anti-Jew, and trying to pretend otherwise is an exercise in futility and arrogance ignorance.

Most of your criticsm and opposition to the State of Israel and those who support it is based on a false premise, that Israel does not have the right to exist.

Israel does have the right to exist.  It was created by the U.N. and is currently recognized as a legitimate country by the U.N. and most of the world.  Only the Arabs and, particularly, the Palestinians claim otherwise.

And “ownership” of the territory that the State of Israel occupies is not as clear-cut as you proclaim.  It depends on how far back you want to go in history.  Historically, borders of countries have changed thanks to war and sometimes to legitimate purchase of land (i.e., the Louisiana Purchase and Alaska are two examples where the U.S. purchased territory).  To the victor comes the spoils.  And this territory has been fought over for centuries.  Whether it was the Egyptians conquering the Jews and taking them as slaves or any other ethnic group or country, ownership of this territory has changed hands a number of times.

The Palestinians screwed up and backed the wrong horse in WWI and in WWII.  They paid the consequences.  Get over it and move forward with the peace process instead of stubbornly clinging to the fantasy that launching enough rockets into Israel or sending enough suicide bombers will change that fact.  It will not.  From the PLO to Hamas, the Palestinians have chosen political “parties” that support terror and put them into power.  Hamas, being backed by Iran, is the worst yet.

(See part 2)

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By Shingo, February 19, 2009 at 11:23 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind,

I think it’s pretty obvious that the anti-Semitic charge has been abused and misused to the point of
trivializing it’s meaning.  Laura was trying to get technical with definitions, so I was fighting fire with fire so to speak.  You would also agree that those who have abused it are prone to being very elastic with their interpretation of it’s meaning.  Just ask Abe Foxman to give you a definition. 

But yes, I agree with your take on it.  Appealingly in this day and age, anti-Semitism and racism is alive and well, but no one would take Mugabe seriously if he were to suggest hat criticism labeled against him is based on racism now would they?

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By cyrena, February 19, 2009 at 7:35 pm Link to this comment

This post is from another thread that is still under siege by the - fill in the blanks - but there’s still interesting conversation developing along the same lines as what I’m noticing here.

So, I thought I’d post this and my response here as well. But, I can’t post the entire thing, since TD recognizes it as a dupe. So, here are the indicated posts and the thread link:

By Leefeller, February 19 at 7:57 am

By cyrena, February 19 at 3:24 pm
By cyrena, February 19 at 3:22 pm

“A Primer on Zionism v Jewish Ethnic Identity”

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20090214_everyone_is_equal_in_their_suffering_during_wartime/

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By PatrickHenry, February 19, 2009 at 6:01 pm Link to this comment

By Shingo, February 19 at 2:15 pm #

I admire the way you handle these zionist talking heads.

The constant obfuscation of legitimate criticism of Israel by spinning it into hateing jews everywhere is a pretty lame ruse or smacks of paranoid schizophrenia.

Israel is a state, not a religion.

Alot of Jews don’t support Israel as the Gaza op demonstrates.  It’s a matter of right and wrong.

People are voting with their feet and Israel is losing jewish-israelis and gaining arab-israelis who will eventually take over this “democracy” by attrition, unless they are diebolded.

American zionist jews and christians should move to Israel to support the soon to be minority.  I for one would be willing to toast their departure.

Everyone should be able to support his or her cause with donations, blood, sweat and tears.  Not tax dollars.

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By curiouscdn, February 19, 2009 at 5:54 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Inherit the Wind:

I have to vehemently disagree with your assessment of the meaning of racism. You are way off the mark. I don’t know anything regarding the Spike Lee case, however, all I can say is, his lawyer read the definition in a dictionary. It probably didn’t work because people these days pride themselves on being ignorant and assumed racism can be committed by any race. That’s not true.

Racism is, by definition, treating another race(s) inferior. Blacks can be discriminatory, but they can’t be racist, because they’re not the race that has the “upper hand” or “holding all the cards”.

As well, if one looks into the history of the word, “Semite”, it means a member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians. So if Arabs were anti-Semitic, would they not be self-hating Arabs?

Therefore, it becomes rather pedestrian when anyone speaks out against Israel’s policies, and is automatically called anti-Semitic…just as Jews who also speak out against the same atrocities are called self-hating Jews. It is the ZIONIST POLICIES we abhor, not the Jewish people.

When you defend their racist policies, you defend, justify and even pontificate about the murdering and slaughtering of innocent Palestinians to build illegal settlements.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 19, 2009 at 4:19 pm Link to this comment

Shingo,

Your argument that Arabs can’t be “anti-Semitic” because they are Semites is spurious, and you know it.

“Anti-Semitism” refers to hatred for Jews, not all Semites. It no more means all Semites than “Butterfly” means a fly that live around butter.

A few years ago, Spike Lee spuriously argued that Blacks couldn’t be racist BY DEFINITION, but only Whites could be.  Why?  Well, among the ideas tossed around was a completely different definition of racism, but rather than EXPLICITLY state that definition, Lee used it to defend Black racism with a cleverness a lawyer uses in court.  He tried to bend it to make it appear as if no action of racial bigotry by a Black person was possible.  It was duplicitous.

Of course, Lee’s VERY SPECIFIC definition of “Racism” was when a dominant race uses its position to prevent the advancement of any or all other races.  By this narrow definition he could claim, in America, that Blacks weren’t racist.

But to deliberately mislead White debaters to try to cover up racial bigotry and motivated violence by Blacks claiming it wasn’t “racism” was BS.

Ultimately, it didn’t work. ...

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By Shingo, February 19, 2009 at 3:15 pm Link to this comment

Laura.

Bigotry takes a number of forms.  It is not always overt and crude, it can often come sugar coated, as is your description.

Yes, anti-Semitism IS a form of bigotry, but not against ISRAEL.  After all,. Arabs are semites too are they not?  Zionists like yourself however, have cheapened the term to mean criticisms of Israel.

>> Interestingly enough, it is you guys that are crying racism at the drop of a hat, not I.

Indeed, I and others are accusing you of racism.

You are not “trying” to have a discussion on ideology , you are trying to spread falsities, propaghanda and lie shat have been long debunked.

You are the one spreading vicious lies in support of Israel.  it is YOU that is justifying mass slaughter, oppression of the Arabs, theft of their land, and the rationale for apratheid.

Don’t expect to have a discussion here about the merits of mass murder and collective punishment.  There are plenty of other web sited where you can go to do that.

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By Laura Schneider, February 19, 2009 at 2:23 pm Link to this comment

Shingo,

Your ignorance of what bigotry truly is never ceases to be asonishing.

Anti-Semitism is a form of bigotry, but AGAINST the JEWS and ISRAEL, not by them. 

As you said, “I hear neo Nazis and rascists say that all the time.” 

Interestingly enough, it is you guys that are crying racism at the drop of a hat, not I.  While I and my compatriots are trying to have a discussion on ideology, you are the ones retreating with cries of racism.  And it is your vicious lies that speak toward bigotry against Israel, not ours.

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By Shingo, February 19, 2009 at 2:18 pm Link to this comment

Laura,

“Deviate a fraction of a moral millimeter from the prevailing orthodoxy and you are either not listened to or you are jeered at and abused, your reading of history trashed, your humanity itself called into question.”

I hear neo Nazis and rascists say that all the time.  You know you cannot defend your position on moral grounds so you resort to protesting about how your freedom of speech is being curtailed.

>>Very description of the prevailing anti-Semitic views expressed here on this blog.

Someone once said that patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.  The cry of anti-Semitism is becoming the last refuge of a bigot.

Thanks for proving that again.

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By Laura Schneider, February 19, 2009 at 12:20 pm Link to this comment

I read a comment from an e-mail on this subject this morning that I would like to share with you:

“Deviate a fraction of a moral millimeter from the prevailing orthodoxy and you are either not listened to or you are jeered at and abused, your reading of history trashed, your humanity itself called into question. I don’t say that self-pityingly. As always with dictatorships of the mind, the worst harmed are not the ones not listened to, but THE ONES NOT LISTENING.”

Very description of the prevailing anti-Semitic views expressed here on this blog.

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By Sepharad, February 18, 2009 at 5:58 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

cyrena, You’re wrong, I’m not miserable. But you’re also right: Shenonymous doesn’t need protecting from you. You just get on these hysterical bullying rants sometimes and if she knows you she’s heard it all before. (What would Obama say? Not his style at all.) But Shenonymous is a real scholar who is NOT looking only for facts that support her hypothesis but, instead, the truth, which usually involves information that doesn’t support one’s pet hypothesis. You have to gather information, evaluate and compare. Otherwise all you get are slogans.

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By Shingo, February 18, 2009 at 4:36 pm Link to this comment

Laura Schneider,

It’s no secret that Fatah take their oder from Tel Aviv and Washington.  The US and Israel armed and financed Fatal in the the coup against Hamas after Hamas were elected and the fact that Olmert has taken Abbas to his bosom has bee the kiss of death.

>> Britain, then the U.N. proposed the two-state solution at the same time.

At the time of the First World War, the British government told the Palestine Arabs that if they fought the Ottoman Turks and forced them to leave Palestine and other lands they would be rewarded with an independent Palestine.

The Palestinian Arabs agreed and with support from the British through Lieutenant Colonel Thomas Edward Lawrence - ‘Lawrence of Arabia’ - the Ottoman Empire was defeated. But their reward was not independence. It was first rule by a British ‘Mandate’ and then occupation by Zionist Israel.

The Arabs were not offered a 2 state solution, they were told they had no choice. 

No other country in the world would accept the UN taking their land and dividing it in 2 to make room for another population - especially when it was to pay for the sins of Europe.

>> How ridiculous!  (a) I am not a Zionist or a Jew

You might not be a Jew, but you are a Zionist.  You’re MO is all to obvious.  you spew out the usual Zionist bile and talking points.  Posters like you apepar all over blogs whenh Isrle is discussed, you pretend to be impartial parties who are just curious about recent events and then launch into far right wing Zionist propaganda.

You’ve been found out.

>>  I am aware of the astonishing bias in the anti-Semitic MSM and in the liberal blogs that demonize Israel and Jews.

This is truly mind boggling. Only a Zionsit could make such a statement with a straight face.

The MSM is totally in the can for Israel.  Only a deluded Zionist could claim that the MSM is anti-semitic or biased against Israel.  The Zionist lobby actually said they were very pleased with the way the media was representing the attack on Gaza.

The only mention we have had of the illegal Wet Bk settlements came from a recent 60 minutes piece and the Zionist lobby went ape shot over it.

The BBC, which you claim are anti Israel, just refused to broadcast a fund raising event for the Palestinians.  They have never done that before.

>> Please congratulate your friends at the OIC, CAIR and the Muslim Brotherhood on how they accomplished your successful brainwashing.

You claim you’re not a ZAioniost and immediately you makde the ad hominem atatck about my friends in the OIC, CAIR and the Muslim Brotherhood?  You are not only a Zionist, you are a liar too.

>> And don’t be surprised when the Muslims do finally take over and relieve you of your rights

Sorry I stand corrected.  You are a lying Zionist AND a racist Islamophobe.

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By cyrena, February 18, 2009 at 4:18 pm Link to this comment

•  Also suggest you stop dissing Shenonymous: she is not a Zionist, not a pro-Israel partisan, but she does have an innate spirit of intellectual curiosity and respects the truth more than her own opinion. (In that respect she and I are similar, and we are also both humanists.) Her respect for truth over self-aggrandizement is the opposite of your own attitude, which is why you don’t understand her and become vicious when she disagrees with you about something.

~~~~

Sepharad,

I’ll direct this to you, since Laura is insignificant here.

As I mentioned to you before, there is a whole hell of a lot that you DON’T know, and one of them is the fact that I KNOW shenonymous, PERSONALLY, as we have met and remain in contact, and I consider her a FRIEND, as well as a colleague and sister scholar in academia.

So Sephard, butt the fuck out!! Don’t even think about preaching down your sanctimonious nose at me, because I’ve seen through you long ago. That I never pointed this out, or brought it more to your attention, is because you too, are basically irrelevant, and I don’t need or choose to ‘diss’ people who are already irrelevant to the discussion anyway. The other members of any genuine discussion can figure that out after hearing from you just a few times.
And Sepharad, we DO hear from people like you all of the time. People like you automatically assume that everyone else thinks the way you do, and your goal in life is to be RIGHT, and acknowledged as such, even when you’re wrong, which is why you say things like this:
•  “cyrena, seeing yourself as triumphant on this website is messing with your head.”
Seeing MYSELF as ‘triumphant’????

No Sephard, that’s HOW YOU apparently choose to ‘see me’, despite the fact that I would prefer to not be ‘seen’ by those of your mentality at all, because for about the 50th time, my presence on this forum is NOT about ME, nor are my contributions some sort of fucking COMPETITION! What is it about Jews and others of the Zionist mindset that always makes you people so determined to be right, even when you’re totally miserable while you’re claiming your righteousness? It’s like Reason (another poster from earlier days) has oft repeated, “Israelis would rather be right than happy” and EVERYTHING is a ‘competition’ for you, even when your chosen ‘competitor’ doesn’t want to compete.

So no, I’m hardly triumphant on this forum or anywhere else, because I am not a competitive person. If I were to ever feel ‘triumphant’ in the least, it would be if Shenonymous actually returns to what you have credited her for, which is an intellectual curiosity in searching for the truth/FACTS and acknowledging it for it’s pure academic and intellectual value, REGARDLESS of her emotional opinions on a peripheral component. I don’t doubt that she wants to know, and is capable of finding the stuff out.

The PROBLEM is, (for an academic/scholar/intellectual and anybody else) that she has developed her hypothesis, and now she looking very SELECTIVELY for information that will support it, and totally DENYING and/or rationalizing away, any FACTS that not only fail to support it, but actually CONTRADICT it. This is a dangerous trap that scholars and OTHER HUMANS fall into all of the time. Her hypothesis is also formed by what is an emotional fascination with the mechanics of religious extremism, so she looks for information that can support her claim that Islam is at the root of all evil.

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By cyrena, February 18, 2009 at 4:11 pm Link to this comment

2 of 2
The cruel irony is that there is a PLETHORA of information available now on this topic of religious extemism in Islam, if she really wanted to pursue it, and I hope that she will. But blaming the human catastrophes of genocide on RELIGIOUS/Islamic extremism is like blaming the crimes of the Zionists on Judaism. YOU know, and I know, that Zionism and Judaism have nothing to do with each other, at least not ideologically speaking. Judaism is a religion, and Zionism is a political ideology based on an assumption of superiority and exclusivity.

In short, the Jews of the World DESERVE a safe haven from the would be enemies that targeted them in the past, and must be lurking under every bed and manger in the Universe, just waiting to target them again. That’s the Zionist explanation for why they had to ethnically cleanse several million ‘others’ from the area in order to establish this safe haven, which in and of itself, (the establishment of such a state) is not the actual CRIME.

The problem is what is required to build and maintain such a so-called ‘safe haven’, and that has nothing to do with religion; Judaism or Islam.  The destruction of a population for the purposes of stealing the very land upon which existed is the crime.

Again Sephard, BACK OFF!! You are out of line, and overwhelmingly misinformed. Don’t obsess on me, as I am NOT a ‘player’ in your juvenille games, and clearly don’t care whether YOU find anything ‘salvageable’ about ME or not. Shenonymous is quite capable of speaking for herself.

I also don’t need any primers on Wikipedia, seeing as how I not only utilize the resource in conjunction with other original academic sources, but I also CONTRIBUTE to that data base, and supervise a group of scholars that I encourage to contribute as well.

Sepharad, your presumptive arrogance knows few bounds. (at least I haven’t seen any yet).

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By Laura Schneider, February 18, 2009 at 4:00 pm Link to this comment

Shingo said:

“You really are clutching at straws, citing a Fatah (Hamas’ rival and corrupt pawn of Tel Aviv) source and describing it as fact.”

LOL!  YOU are clutching at straws if you call Fatah controlled by the Israelis.  I guess it’s because they are willing to consider a non-violent peace deal rather than terrorism.


“forget the fact that the arabs in Palestine were offered their own state before the Zionists were.”

WRONG!  Britain, then the U.N. proposed the two-state solution at the same time.  Israel was willing to, but the Palestinians did not take the deal.

Since you have now established that any source that is generally supportive of either side is automatically discredited, that leaves you in quite a bind, does it not?

How ridiculous!  (a) I am not a Zionist or a Jew (I’m an “mongrel” American United Methodist), but I am aware of the astonishing bias in the anti-Semitic MSM and in the liberal blogs that demonize Israel and Jews.

Please congratulate your friends at the OIC, CAIR and the Muslim Brotherhood on how they accomplished your successful brainwashing.  And don’t be surprised when the Muslims do finally take over and relieve you of your rights (and possibly your life, if you are not a Muslim), because that has been their stated goal all along.

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By Shingo, February 18, 2009 at 3:38 pm Link to this comment

Laura Schneider,

You really are clutching at straws, citing a Fatah (Hamas’ rival and corrupt pawn of Tel Aviv) source and describing it as fact.  How pathetic.  Why no just cite Bibbi or Lieberman?

Then you pull out a web site that reads like a talking point memo stright off the web site of David Horowitz.

And wow, don’t they look strangely familiar?
Palestine as a nation is a new concept – forget the fact that the arabs in Palestine were offered their own state before the Zionists were.

The is no occupied territory forget the fact
The West Bank settlements are not an obstacle to peace -even though this week Tzipi Livni said exactly the opposite.

And on it goes.  They are tired old carnards that are not even taken seriously in Israel.

As for your cut and paste.

I too have come across Ziojsts hacks like yourself, who have clung to Patrick Martin’s sop called report like with were the Holy Grail.  Of course, he cites no sources and produces no evidence.

The Lancet report contradicts this entire article.
Not only that, but let’s remember that Israel violated the rulings of it’s own supreme court and banned reporters from entering Gaza. We know why don’t we?  Because they didn’t want the world to see what they were doing.

The Globe and Mail is a well established, pro Israeli paper and any so called investigation of their part must be seriously questioned.
Israel denied killing .

The reason the pro Israeli BBC, pro Israeli CNN, the Guardian, or the NY Times have not issued retractions or corrections is because there is no grounds to.  The Globe and Mail investigation is flawed and corrupt.

It goes on to say that “It has now also come to light that the number of Palestinian deaths in Gaza was wildly over-reported “ when in fact, the Israelis government has since admitted to killing 11,300 Palestinians.

You are simply discrediting yourself Laura and your lack of intellectual curiosity.

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By Laura Schneider, February 18, 2009 at 2:14 pm Link to this comment

For unpropagandized facts on the Iraeli-Palestinian conflict in Gaza:

Ma’an: Fatah publishes names of 181 claimed killed, shot or maimed by de facto government forces in Gaza
February 2, 2009  

Ramallah – A senior leader within Fatah slammed what he called “Hamas crimes against patriotic people” in the Gaza Strip Monday.

The comments come after a string of reports of human rights violations committed by Palestinians against Palestinians in the Gaza Strip during the Israeli war on Gaza….  To read more:  http://www.maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=35455

——————————
FLAME (Facts and Logic About the Middle East): Media attack Israel using bad “facts”—when will it stop?
February 18, 2009
Dave Nogradi

Since the Gaza conflict ended a few weeks ago, the international media have had some time to reflect on events as they actually occurred—-as opposed to the events as they were reported.

Among numerous examples of inaccurate and at times blatantly false reporting, a few stand out. One of the most notorious examples was the report that Israel supposedly bombed a UN school, resulting in 43 deaths. Please read the article below by Patrick Martin of the Canadian paper, the Globe and Mail, in which he describes the results of their detailed investigation in Gaza.

As it (not so surprisingly) turns out, no Palestinians were killed in the school or even within the school compound.

The Washington Post also recently issued a correction on the UN school story (though it is worth noting that it was placed within the inside pages of the Saturday edition). Why haven’t the BBC, CNN, the Guardian, or the NY Times issued retractions or corrections of their coverage over this story?

Another example involved the (now infamous as a result of their al-Dura story) French TV station, France 2. They showed video footage that they originally claimed was of an Israeli air strike on a civilian area in Gaza. They were later forced to admit that they had used old footage from a 2005 video showing the explosion of a truck filled with arms in the Jabaliya refugee camp.

It has now also come to light that the number of Palestinian deaths in Gaza was wildly over-reported. Far from the 1,300 deaths reported by many news outlets, the Italian newspaper, Corriere della Sera, concluded that 500-600 Palestinians were killed. And of these, most were Hamas fighers.
Reports are only now coming out about the killing and maiming of Fatah supports in Gaza (here is a list of the 181 Fatah victims). Hamas has also been accused by the UN of stealing food and medicine being sent in by donors. UNRWA, the UN agency whose specific purpose is to provide for the Palestinian people, now has to be wary of blatant Hamas aggression.

It has been a modest vindication of Israeli action during the conflict, now that the extreme bias of international media has been proven. But the damage has already been done. This atrocious reporting was in part responsible for the rise in anti-Semitic attacks throughout the world, specifically in Venezuela, where a Caracas synagogue was attacked on January 30th. Now the country’s 10,000 Jews can only wonder what might come next.

Rather than focus on the important fact that Israel went further than any other army in history to warn civilians of impeding attacks (thereby divulging their attack plans in the process), the media jumped at the chance to criticize Israel once again.

As rockets continue to fall on Israel after the “end” of the conflict, one would hope (against hope) that Israel will get a little more integrity out of the BBCs of the world when the inevitable next conflict occurs.

——————————
FLAME: Myths About Israel and the Middle East (1)
Do the media feed us fiction, instead of fact?

http://www.factsandlogic.org/ad_36b.html

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By Sepharad, February 18, 2009 at 11:31 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Laura, you said to cyrena most of what I would’ve said, and then some.

cyrena, seeing yourself as triumphant on this website is messing with your head. I’ve known you to have, in the past, actually posted some interesting and accurate material, which is why I’m still responding to you at all. Something to be salvaged there. I’ve also learned, being away from my own research library built up over decades, that sometimes Wikipedia is very useful, though sometimes, I’ve thought, not deep enough in its cites and bibliographies—yet I found one instance where Wikipedia sources disputed, to my satisfaction, a specific that I had been certain of.

So before you go completely nutty, suggest you go to Wikipedia and read, five times, the entire entry and click on every emphasized related points re Israeli-Arab conflict before you even think about posting on the topic again. 

Also suggest you stop dissing Shenonymous: she is not a Zionist, not a pro-Israel partisan, but she does have an innate spirit of intellectual curiosity and respects the truth more than her own opinion. (In that respect she and I are similar, and we are also both humanists.) Her respect for truth over self-aggrandizement is the opposite of your own attitude, which is why you don’t understand her and become vicious when she disagrees with you about something.

But don’t worry. If all else fails you can journey to the Swati Valley in Pakistan, lower your voice, paste on a fake beard and try to join the Taliban, whose way of thinking may be more amenable to your own.

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By Laura Schneider, February 18, 2009 at 8:38 am Link to this comment

LOL!  cyrena:

Let me see if I have this straight:

Anyone who agrees with you is “intellectually honest” and displays “intellectual/journalistic integrity/judgment.”

Anyone who disagrees with you is an intellectual wannabe.”

Anyone who supports Israel is a Zionist wannabe an

Those who support Israel and don’t agree with you “lost it on anything related to Israel or Arab Muslims, IF [we] ever had it to begin with.”

If we are concerned about religious extremism, we’re obsessive.  And we have “been especially obsessive” and “it’s obviously distorted” our view.

“Or, maybe [we have] “always been a bigot of some persuasion.”

“The difference is that I can generally self-correct with relative ease when I’m presented with actual evidence, because my judgment and integrity aren’t based on personal emotions, but on what the facts in evidence tell of the tale.  That’s why I’m not fooled very easily…”  Oh, really?  Then how is it that you have been fooled completely by the Islamic propagandists into ignoring any facts and evidence that disproves your ideology and cherry-picking and sources that supports your argument, often misquoted or mischaracterized?

And you accuse us of being “one[s] committed to spreading propaganda for primarily self-serving purposes -  to make [ourselves] feel important.”  Are you looking in the mirror when you say this?

Then you have the intellectual dishonesty to state (as if it were undisputed fact) without providing evidence that “Israel isn’t a safe haven to the World’s Jews, it’s a SAFE HAVEN for the oldest global terrorist organization modern history. It was setup by a cabal of terrorist thugs to BE a ‘safe haven’ for their terrorist, (expansionist) activities, and that’s the bottom line. That they happened to be Jewish Terrorists using the concept of “Zion the Homeland” as the ideological basis for their Movement doesn’t change the fact that they have always been terrorists, and that Israel is simply a safe haven for them, and one that the US has consistently enabled (with OUR taxpayer dollars) in perpetrating their terrorist activities.”  Apparently you don’t know the difference between a nationalist movement and a terrorist organization and ideology.

And you, who are obsessive and intellectually dishonest in your cherry-picking of facts and sources that support your view condemning Israel for its very existence, have no problem with disseminating propaganda and attacking those who correct your Islamic myths.

And you ended with a statement that best applies to you:

“None of your propaganda changes any of that reality.”

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By cyrena, February 17, 2009 at 9:49 pm Link to this comment

•  “Being called a clone of Shenonymous is high praise (though cyrena does not like Shenonymous or anyone else unless they are in agreement with herself).”
Sepharad,
I swear you are SUCH the typical American Zionist from your cult of wannabe intellectuals. The arrogance of ignorance never ceases to amaze me, and I guess it never will. But, Shingo has let you know, in very clear and unambiguous language, that we’ve been seeing through your types for years now.
So, how do YOU know that I don’t like Shenonymous? You don’t. As a matter of fact, I liked her just fine until she fell into this neurosis to which all too many others of us have succombed, and I hope that she’ll eventually recover, and get back to her intellectual integrity for which you have given her so much credit. She’s lost it on anything related to Israel or Arab Muslims, IF she ever had it to begin with.
On other issues, she’s actually been reasonable and committed to thinking, which always requires objectivity and an open channel (or more if possible) to process information efficiently. When it comes to anything having to do with religious extremism though, Shenonymous has been especially obsessive, and so it’s obviously distorted her view of things that are at best, only tangentially related, and such a disconnection to urgent matters shows a lack of intellectual judgment/integrity. Or, maybe she’s always been a bigot of some persuasion, and your similar presence on this forum brought out the worst in her. Who knows? If so, I’ve definitely been ‘fooled’ but it wouldn’t be the first time, and it won’t be the last. I never claimed to be born in a manger either, so I’m susceptible to errors in judgment myself. The difference is that I can generally self-correct with relative ease when I’m presented with actual evidence, because my judgment and integrity aren’t based on personal emotions, but on what the facts in evidence tell of the tale.  That’s why I’m not fooled very easily, but it does happen sometimes, and maybe Shenonymous DID fool me. YOU however, NEVER have! Shingo called it just the way most of us see it. So no. You haven’t fooled anybody.

What –YOU- DON’T know (and that’s a whole hell of a lot) is that I ‘don’t like’ Shenonymous and you sound like some hopelessly superficial ,air-headed, overgrown sorority girl at best, and just a plain old bear-faced liar at worst – one committed to spreading propaganda for primarily self-serving purposes -  to make yourself feel important. Or maybe it’s just that you’re so committed to maintaining the Myth of your Jewish Aristocracy, and protecting the Royal Zionist Influence in the Middle East. Isn’t that what you called it –‘influence’- when you mentioned how many Centuries your family has been ‘in the area’? You sound like the wannabe Zionist version of the Mayflower Gang.

Maybe I should have cloned Laura to you rather than Shenonymous.

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By cyrena, February 17, 2009 at 9:46 pm Link to this comment

2 of 2
And stop with this broken record on how everybody is supposed to ‘agree’ with me, because that’s more of the same old-timey and juvenille type shit. My contributions to this forum don’t revolve around agreement or disagreement with me or anyone else.

We put FACTS OF REALITY out there and discuss them Sepharad, while you do your best to sabotage it with the same old standard fairy tale myths to hold up an image, (so the world won’t REALLY know what goes on behind those closed doors or greedily scheming minds) of Israel as something it most certainly is NOT. (Kinda like Scarlett when Tara was burning and she was farming cotton.)

Israel isn’t a safe haven to the World’s Jews, it’s a SAFE HAVEN for the oldest global terrorist organization modern history. It was setup by a cabal of terrorist thugs to BE a ‘safe haven’ for their terrorist, (expansionist) activities, and that’s the bottom line. That they happened to be Jewish Terrorists using the concept of “Zion the Homeland” as the ideological basis for their Movement doesn’t change the fact that they have always been terrorists, and that Israel is simply a safe haven for them, and one that the US has consistently enabled (with OUR taxpayer dollars) in perpetrating their terrorist activities. Terrorist Club House on the Mediterranean, paid for and sponsored by the mostly NON-Jewish citizens of America, who would never be allowed to live in Israel, or even dip our toes in the water.

None of your propaganda changes any of that reality.

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By Shingo, February 17, 2009 at 8:44 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind,

>>The Sinai, returned to Egypt as part of the Camp David Accords, had effectively DOUBLED Israel and is several times larger than the West Bank.

I stand corrected.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 17, 2009 at 8:24 pm Link to this comment

Israel has not ceded most of the land it took, because most of the land is the West Bank.
*********************************************

Fact check!!!!!!!  The Sinai, returned to Egypt as part of the Camp David Accords, had effectively DOUBLED Israel and is several times larger than the West Bank.  In fact, Israel has returned MOST of the land it seized in the 1967 War simply with the return of the Sinai to Egypt—for which Anwar Sadat was murdered by the same people backing Hamas. 

They didn’t want peace then, they don’t want it now.

One thing I do agree on, Shingo, the Gaza, while returned, was done because it was expedient and cost-effective, not out of humanitarian motivations.

As Casey Stengel used to say “You kin look it up!”

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By Sepharad, February 17, 2009 at 5:40 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Shingo,

Bitter? Of course not; just passing on words of advice to someone who’s new to Truthdig. You & some of the other more venomous posters can be quite shocking to people who assume progressives are, well, progressive and rational people.

Oh—Amos Oz isn’t an Arab.

FYI, I’m interested in non-Middle Eastern topics as well, but sometimes wonder how some of you manage to bring every issue back to the Middle East. Very tedious but it goes with the territory.

Shalom.

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By Shingo, February 17, 2009 at 4:27 pm Link to this comment

Sepharad,

yes you have spent a fair amount of time on Truthdig, but to spin propaganda, not present facts about Israel or its history.  You have been exposed as a shill and a propagandist, and now you are understandably bitter.

No one is buying your lies anymore.

Only the bigoted, paranoid, Islamphobes of society are buying into the myths of the the Islamofascist expansion agenda you refer to. In case you missed it, the only party that is carrying out expansion is Israel.

But you haven’t the guts to even go there.
You liars are so predictable. Always citing one asshole, the Mufti of Jerusalem, as proof of some anti semitic conspiracy in the Arab world. Meanwhile, Israel is home to Rabis that call for the extermination of all Arabs and you barely bat an eyelid.

Hamas and Hezbollah would not even exist were it not for Israeli policies of expansion, unprovoked attacks, occupation and intimidation.

You allude to false accusations being are hurled at Israel, yet you flock to every Israel related thread to conflate issues.  Always, pointing to Darfur as proof there are worse crimes being perpetrated.  Always alluding to the so called imposition of Shariah law in Europe, honor killings, death threats against political leaders in the Netherlands, always trying to convince others that it’s still 1939 and that poor little defenseless, peace loving Israel just wants to be left alone.

You cling to toke Arabs like Amos Oz as proof that Arabs Muslims are sub human and evil.

Israel has always pretended that it has never had a partner for peace, becasue it is the last thing they want. You admit that Fatah are corrupt and weak, yet Israel’s own government has taken Abbas to their bosom and embraced him as one of their own – how fitting. They know they can play him and manipulate his while the Palestinians bleed.

BTW. Tzipi Livni said this week that Israel has to give all the land back tot eh Palestinians if Israel is ever to have peace.  She knows that the issue of land is driving the conflict, not hatred of Jews.  That makes a liar of you, who insist the Palestinians don;t want peace, doesn’t it?

You Zionist hacks really need to get your stories straight.

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By Shingo, February 17, 2009 at 4:03 pm Link to this comment

Laura Schneider,

Part 2 of 2

NYT columnist, Thomas Friedman said, Israel were following the same formula they applied in Southern Lebanon – to punish the civilian population to such an extent that they would turn on their own leadership.

In fact, Israeli has always targeted civilians and they have admitted to this practice.

“Since 1948, we have been fighting against a population that lives in towns and villages.”
Mordecai Gur(Israeli politician and the 10th Chief of Staff of the IDF)

“The Israeli army has always struck civilian populations, purposely and consciously. The army has never distinguished civilian from military targets, but has purposely attacked civilian targets.”
Ze’ev Shiff (Israeli journalist and military correspondent for Ha’aretz. )

“There was a rational prospect, ultimately fulfilled, that affected populations would exert pressure for the cessation of hostilities, satisfying Israel’s goals.

Commenting on a speech by Menachem Begin, that resented a picture, Eben said, “of an Israel wantonly inflicting every possible measure of death an anguish on civilian populations, in mood reminiscent of regimes which neither Mr Begin nor I would dare to mention by name”
Abba Eben (Israeli diplomat and politician)

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By Shingo, February 17, 2009 at 4:02 pm Link to this comment

Laura Schneider,

Part 1 of 2

Your juvenile attacks expose you for what you are – a racist bigot.

Whoever the OIC might be, your accusation exposes your contempt for Muslims.

Your understanding of the facts is also laughable.  What we said was that Israel was founded on terrorism, and evidently, reveres terrorism, given that it has elected the leaders of 2 terrorist organizations to the office of Prime Minister.  It even elected a war criminal to that post.  In fact, in 2006, it celebrated the 60th anniversary of the bombing of the King David Hotel, which the British government took as quite an insult.

Most terrorist movements are based on some degree of nationalism and Zionism is no different.

The precursor to the creation of Israel actually started in the 18th century with Theodor Herzl’s notion of a Jewish state.  In fact, the Arabs in Palestine were promised their own land by the British in return for fighting the Turks.

It is a violation of international law to capture land and then colonize it, which is what Isrlae has done.

Israel has not ceded most of the land it took, because most of the land is the West Bank.  Furthermore, it did not return Gaza for peace, but for the reasons that even hard liners like Sharon admitted – that the cost benefit of maintaining 8000 settlers in Gaza was just justified and that expansing settlements in the west Bank (illegally of course) was a better option.

Hamas were actually created by Israel to act as an adversary tot he PLO, so that Israel could delay negotiating with the PLO.  In 1982 for example, after the PLO had voiced their support for a 2 state solution, Israel invaded Lebanon to as th Israeli leadership said “overcome the PLO peace offensive”.  Israel have always chosen expansion over peace.
6 years ago, the League of Arab Nations offered to recognize Israel and normalize relations with Israel as per the 1967 borders.  Israel have rejected the offer. Israel have always chosen expansion over peace.

It has been Israel that has broken the ceasefires.  Israel violated the last ceasefire on November the 4th. Even Israel admits this Laura, so why do you continue to perpetuate this lie?

Israel’s siege was not a response to Hamas’ attacks, because as Mark Regev admitted on television, Hamas were not attacking.

Israel was founded by by terrorist groups like the Irgun and the Stern gang, who expelled 800,000 Arabs from their homes.  These Arabs became the subsequent refugees, which Israel illegally refuge the right of return.

As Moshe Dayans said, the Arab villages that use to be here are now Israeli towns and villages.  ironically, the town of Sderot was such a town.
Israel has branded anyone who defied their authority and superiority as terrorists.  Hezbollah would not even exist were it not for Israel’s invasion and occupation of Southern Lebanon. Hezbollah are also a nationalistic organization who were formed to expel the invader, yet Israel has branded them terrorists.
Hamas launched no rockets since the ceasefire on June 2008. Israel’s government MFA report concluded that Hamas were very careful to observe the ceasefire and stifle the firing of rockets by militant groups not under their control.  In December, Hams tried to extend the truce and Israel rejected the offer, choosing to attack instead.  Hamas were proving to be too moderate of the Israeli leers and they feared they would have to negotiate with them.

A

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By Laura Schneider, February 17, 2009 at 10:17 am Link to this comment

Here’s the conclusion (part 2):

After numerous wars wherein Israel was attacked and defeated her attackers, Israel’s borders were expanded with the conquered territory. Over the past few decades, Israel has ceded most of this land in exchange for [the promise of] peace, however, the Arab nations, the PLO, Fatah and now Hamas are not really interested in peace. They want Israel to cede ALL its territory to the Palestinians and the complete dissolution of Israel. Consequently, these pro-Palestinian terrorist groups have been steadily launching attacks, breaking the many ceasefires with regularity during this time. Israel’s recent response to Hamas’ attacks is well justified.

It should also be noted that “in 1970, the PLO was expelled from Jordan, in what was known as the Black September. Large numbers of Palestinians moved into Lebanon after the Black September, joining the thousands already there.”  So, in other words, the PLO and its successors have not only caused problems for Israel, but neighboring Arab states as well.

That’s the reality of the situation. Israel was founded by the U.N. after WWII and led by nationalists who supported an independent Jewish state, not “terrorists.”

The Palestinians view anyone who occupies their “original” territory prior to WWI and WWII as being terrorists, refusing to acknowledge that they brought their situation upon themselves by, first, refusing the original two-state solution and, second, by supporting the various terrorist organizations (from the PLO to Hamas) rather than accept a two-state solution and peace. The Palestinians could have had their own state back in 1948 had not the Arab League opposed it, and as a result they lost their chance for several decades. Several times we have come close to seeing a two-state peaceful solution, but Arab extremists foiled the plans each time.

Now Hamas is playing victim after it has been attacking (launching rockets at Israel) Israel for MONTHS. Israel has shown great restraint, preceding its attacks with warnings to the Palestinians in Leaflet-drops and broadcast warnings. But the Palestinians continue to support and elect Hamas (the real terrorists) to their own peril. Hamas does not have the best interests of the Palestinians at heart. Their unwillingness to accept a peaceful two-state solution and their demands for the dissolution of Israel are neither reasonable nor justifiable. Until they accept that Israel is here to stay and try to make the most of a peaceful two-state solution, this problem will continue because of their terrorist actions.

And that’s the truth….

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By Laura Schneider, February 17, 2009 at 10:16 am Link to this comment

My response will have to be broken into two comments.  This is the first:

You guys are great mouthpieces for the OIC (Organization of The Islamic Conference). However, your version of the facts is not correct. Apparently, you consider anyone who isn’t Muslim to be Zionist terrorists. The Zionist movement is not a terrorist organization; it is a nationalist movement:

“Zionism is the international Jewish political movement that originally supported the reestablishment of a homeland for the Jewish People in Palestine, after two millennia of exile…. Since the creation of Israel, the Zionist movement continues primarily as support for the modern state of Israel (Webster’s 11th Collegiate Dictionary). Encyclopedia Britannica, The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, 4th Edition).

‘Der Judenstaat’ (‘The Jewish State’) is a book written by Theodor Herzl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Herzl).... Herzl popularized the term “Zionism”, which was coined by Nathan Birnbaum” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Birnbaum), who, along with his family, was murdered by the Nazis.

The precursor to the creation of Israel actually started with the dissolution of the (Islamic) Ottoman Empire.  During WWI, the Ottoman Empire allied itself with the Germans in exchange for future control over Russian territory. In short, they chose the wrong side to back and lost the war, after which time Palestine eventually came under the control of the British.

“This violence and the heavy cost of World War II led Britain to turn the issue of Palestine over to the United Nations. In 1947, the U.N. approved the partition of the British Mandate of Palestine into two states: one Jewish and one Arab. The Jewish leadership accepted the plan, but Palestinian Arab leaders, supported by the Arab League, rejected the plan, and a civil war broke out. Israel quickly gained the upper hand in this intercommunal fighting and declared its independence on May 14 1948. Five Arab League countries (Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Transjordan and Iraq) then invaded Palestine, starting the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. The war resulted in an Israeli victory, with Israel capturing additional territory beyond the partition borders but leaving Jerusalem as a divided city; the territory Israel did not capture was taken over by the Arab League countries. The war also resulted in the 1948 Palestinian exodus, known to Palestinians as Al-Naqba” (Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-Palestinian_conflict).

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By Sepharad, February 17, 2009 at 10:09 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Laura, Disregard the sniping from Cyrena et al. Truthdig has this cabal of Israel haters and you will doubtless hear from all of the them. But there are a handful of us who respect and wish to protect Israel from false accusations, which are hurled on nearly every thread, no matter what the topic of the actual article. The poster Shenonymous is not so much an Israel partisan as she is an intellectual, thorough, and does great research on things she does not at first understand. She is one of the few people here who literally dig for the truth,and keeps an open mind on issues till she has all the information to make a decision then argues it forcefully. Being called a clone of Shenonymous is high praise (though cyrena does not like Shenonymous or anyone else unless they are in agreement with herself).

There’s one thing in your post I disagree with: the Palestinians weren’t “stupid” when they voted for Hamas, they were just angry with Fatah’s corruption that had been exposed. Arafat and cronies and his wife Suha had long been siphoning off, for their personal use, most of the millions of dollars being donated to the Palestinian people the vote for Hamas was more of a vote against Fatah. I suspect most Gazans have long since regretted their choice, but the real problem is that they have no good choices for leaders. (If Israel ends up with Netanyahu on top, Israel will also be without a good leader.)

The last time I was in Israel, was talking to a man who sometimes negotiates for the Palestinians and gave him Amos Oz’s tiny book “Please Help Us Divorce” with the most sensible path to a second state I’ve seen anywhere. A few days later he returned it to me glowing, said he was going to buy additional copies for himself and others, felt there was somewhere to go from there and apologized for making notes in the margins. Looking through the notes, I noticed that his greatest interest was in a part regarding the things that could be achieved if the Palestinians could come up with the right leader. (Oz also discussed a “right leader” for Israel and his description sounds a lot like Tzipi Livni and lightyears away from Netanyahu, so cross your fingers that she can put together a government coalition.)

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By cyrena, February 17, 2009 at 3:11 am Link to this comment

By Laura Schneider, February 16 at 9:47 am #
•  “You guys are fiddling while Rome burns, lamenting over the poor Palestinians, who just happened to vote a terrorist organization funded by Iran (HAMAS) into power and are now suffering the consequences of their stupid decision.”
Actually Laura Schneider,
HAMAS is a CREATION of Israel and the West, initially intended to counter the influence of Fatah within the PLO. And…the US helped.

America’s Hidden Role in Hamas’s Rise to Power
By Stephen Zunes, AlterNet.
Posted January 3, 2009.

http://www.alternet.org/audits/116855/america’s_hidden_role_in_hamas’s_rise_to_power/

But of course it backfired, (on Israel and the US that is) when Hamas formed an effective political party and was democratically elected by the Palestinian population.

Well, as soon as THAT happened, Israel and their Terrorist Twin –the US- immediately designated them a ‘terrorist organization’ and immediately launched their collective punishment attack on the entire population, via starvation, the continued imprisonment of tens of thousands, not to mention all of the bombings and chemical weapons delivered from the air.

So…just so you’re aware, HAMAS was created and funded by Israel and the US, which turned out to be a blessing for the Palestinians, or at least their best chance. They were hardly stupid, and neither is Hamas. In fact, they’re actually about the smartest (over 500 PhD holders among them) and the most principled in the entire region.

But, it sounds like you’re a Shenonymous clone or something, appearing to believe that the rest of us are as stupid as you’ve decided the electorate of Palestine is.

We aren’t stupid either.

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By Sepharad, February 16, 2009 at 9:38 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Laura,

I spend a fair amount of time on Truthdig, much of it trying to put facts about Israel, its history, and its enemies in terms people here can understand, maybe even shock them out of their close-mindedness—most of them aren’t true bigots, but a handful are. The rest are just ill-informed and don’t want to change because it doesn’t fit their ideas of political correctness or self-interest or who the real “underdogs” are as well identifying the real “top dogs” keeping them down—it’s too complicated. What you’re doing is not a waste of time, though,  because there are flickers of comprehension occasionally so keep fighting the good fight.

On another thread, a regular poster, Shenonymous, put up a link (UnitedAgainstFascists on YouTube)—a group I’d never heard of, but it did an excellent job of explaining the Islamofascist expansion agenda in a way that even the most blatant Israel-hater would have to take seriously. Framing it are some British scholars and—amazingly, a former member of Hitler Youth—who show the history of the Mufti of Jerusalem, footage of him with Hitler in discussion, of the Bosnian Muslims he recruited for the SS, and also clips of various mullahs and imams following in those footsteps. These Moslem religious figures of course do not represent every Moslem, but they do represent the intentions of the words of the Koran in terms of expansion and the fate of infidels only they do so in exhortations to their fellow Moslems to support the expansion of Islam and Sharia, and several of them talk about how their flag will sooner or later fly over Israel, over Britain, over the U.S., over the European countries—and one, speaking very clearly, said that “the fate of Israel will be the fate of the world.” This is probably a foregone conclusion in their minds and part of the plans for expansion right on track so far in Europe, but I thought that perhaps it would make even the most hardened anti-Israel Truthdigger think about the relationship between what Hamas and Hezbollah have in mind for the Israelis (as well as Arabs who don’t go along with their religious extremism) AND for everyone else. (Sometimes it takes a major dose of “self-interest” for people to see the true dimensions of a threat—whether its AIDS or some deadly virus or extremist Islamic expansionism.)

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By PatrickHenry, February 16, 2009 at 6:53 pm Link to this comment

By Laura Schneider, February 16 at 5:14 pm #

Israels violation of treaty’s and international law are numerous.

http://infao5501.ag5.mpi-sb.mpg.de:8080/topx/archive?link=Wikipedia-Lip6-2/1368578.xml&style;
Geneva Conventions.

As a staunch defender of Israel and a woman you will appreciate Israel for this:

http://www.turks.us/article.php?story=20040520135340986

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By Shingo, February 16, 2009 at 6:41 pm Link to this comment

By the way Laura,

Your israpundit link is laughable.

not once does it address the fact that Israel, in violation of it’s own supreme court, banned foreign journalists from entering gaza during the Siege.

We know why dodn’t we?  During the 2006 Lebanon war, Israel was unable to control the message because of independent journalists in Lebanon, who were abler to contradict Israel’s official lies.

Israel used the same false accusations then as it did in Gaza, that Hamas were using Human shields. Of course, investigations revealed that in 2006, Hezbollah were not operating anywhere near civilians.

Israel also lied about he rocket attacks then contradicted itself.

Listen to Mark Regev admit that hams fired no rockets during the ceasefire, and that Israel, not Hamas, violated the ceasefire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6e-elrgYL0

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By Shingo, February 16, 2009 at 6:32 pm Link to this comment

Laura Schneider,

>> Israel still disregards International treaties and laws….”

Wrong.

Israel has defied over 90 UN resolutions calling for it’s withdrawal from the occupied territories.

Israel has also defied the international Court of Justice in regards to it’s illegal wall.

>> The League of Nations, then the U.N. “founded” Israel by partitioning Palestine into two states, one Jewish, one Arab:

Israel’s founders were terrorists, who’s leaders later wen ton to become Israeli Prime Ministers.

And Israel has violated this principal by Arab land.

It’s ironic whoever that Zionist apologists like to cite the U.N.  As giving legitimacy to Israel, while
justifying Israel’s refusal to comply with over 90 UN resolutions against it.

>> Every time Israel makes an attempt to secure peace by giving up land, they get attacked for their efforts.

False. 

The only time they gave up land (in Gaza), they seized more of it in the West Bank, and then imposed suffocating restrictions on Gaza.  In 2008, Israel voted against a UN resolution to give the Palestinians the right to self determination.
Israel has taken no steps towards peace.  Only towards stonewalling and delays.

You’re bias and ignorance is frightening.
The link you provided is laughable.  Even the Israeli government now admits it killed over 1100 Palestinians

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By Laura Schneider, February 16, 2009 at 6:17 pm Link to this comment

Please see the following.  Here is an excerpt and link:

Israel is victim of “war crimes” propaganda
By Rachel Neuwirth

Most of the American and European media have accused Israel of having committed “war crimes” in its recent “assault” on Gaza, and of waging war indiscriminately on its civilian population. Israel is said to have damaged schools, hospitals, ambulances and mosques and to have inflicted an immense number of deaths and injuries on innocent civilians. The same accusations have been hurled at Israel by the United Nations, by many of the world’s governments, and by numerous pseudo-do-gooder “Non-governmental organizations” (or “NGOs”), such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. The International Criminal Court in the Hague is considering whether to file war crimes charges against Israeli military and political leaders, and the nations of the European Community are debating amongst themselves whether to support such a move.[1]

But when we probe into the matter a little deeper by looking at the reports of journalists who did some independent investigating, and who interviewed Gaza civilians who agreed to talk with them (anonymously or using nicknames, for fear of Hamas reprisals), we get a completely different picture: Israel took great care to avoid hurting innocent people, while Hamas deliberately tried to cause as many casualties among the Gazan people as possible.

Let’s go through some of the biggest media lies one by one, and then expose the truth.

more—>> http://www.israpundit.com/2008/?p=9548

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By Laura Schneider, February 16, 2009 at 6:14 pm Link to this comment

PatrickHenry said:
“You forget Israel was founded by terrorists.

Israel still disregards International treaties and laws….”

Really?  Israel was founded by terrorists?  The League of Nations, then the U.N. “founded” Israel by partitioning Palestine into two states, one Jewish, one Arab:

“After World War I, the League of Nations approved the British Mandate of Palestine with the intent of creating a “national home for the Jewish people.” (The Palestine Mandate”. The Avalon Project. Yale University. 1922-07-24. http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/palmanda.htm.) In 1947, the United Nations approved the partition of Palestine into two states, one Jewish and one Arab. (United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181”. The Avalon Project. Yale University. 1947-11-29. http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/un/res181.htm.)”

So, the U.N. is a terrorist organization now?

And what international treaties and laws EXACTLY is Israel disregarding?  Unless you are assuming that the U.N. dividing Palestine was disregarding a treaty?  In such case, Israel was not the primary actor, since it did not officially exist until the U.N. said it did.

Every time Israel makes an attempt to secure peace by giving up land, they get attacked for their efforts.

You guys make wild claims based on an aberrated set of “facts” that suit your purpose.  That is not reality.  You need to reread the history of Israel and see how many times Israel has taken the first step only to be rewarded with Arab/Palestinian violance.

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By Shingo, February 16, 2009 at 4:21 pm Link to this comment

Nice try Laura,

But you are very mistaken and ill informed.

First and foremost.  Nowhere in your thesis have you even acknowledged the illegal Israeli occupation of Arabs land.  A dead give away that you are Zionist and avoiding the fundamental issue at stake here.

Not only was Israel founded on terrorism, it elected 2 terrorist leaders and a war criminal as Prime Minister.

Israel’s own spokesman, Mark Regev admitted in an interview, that Hamas fired NO rockets during the ceasefire.

The canard about the so called liberal press is also telling. Israel violated the ruling of it’s own Supreme court and banned foreign journalists from Gaza. The BBC refused to give air time to an appeal to raise money for the Gazans.

Your Shariah Law canard is also a dead give away that yo are a Zionst hack.  There is no Shariah Law imposed anywhere in Europe and no laws throughout Europe legalize murder by anyone.

According to the UN Rapporteur on human rights, what Israel is doing is similar to what did Hitler did.

>> While you wring your hands over the poor Palestinians and how the big, bad Israel is hurting them without cause (Year, right!)

There was no cause,  Mark Regev admitted in an interview, that Hamas fired NO rockets during the ceasefire.

>> Iran is steadily working their way to joining the community of nations that possess nuclear weapons.  And if you think they won’t use those weapons, you are only kidding yourselves.

And how do you know this?  The US NIE report stated unequivocally that Iran is not producing nuclear weapons.  This finding has been supported by the IAEA.  I won’t ask you for evidence back your claim, because there isn’t any.

>> Well, Islam calls for the forced conversion or murder of all infidels as part of its religious tenets.

That is a lie also.  During the Spanish inquisition, the Muslims forced no one to convert and provided [protection to the Jewish communities who were being persecuted by the Christians.

>> So, while you guys are lamenting the poor Palestinians, you’d better start making preparations to convert at the point of a sword, or die….

The only threat we face is from a war with Iran that Israel is determine to start.

You are a liar Laura (if that is your real name).  You know it and everyone here knows it.

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By PatrickHenry, February 16, 2009 at 3:49 pm Link to this comment

By Laura Schneider, February 16 at 9:47 am #

You forget Israel was founded by terrorists.

Israel still disregards International treaties and laws and without the U.S. welfare and U.N. veto, they wouldn’t last a year.

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By Laura Schneider, February 16, 2009 at 10:47 am Link to this comment

You guys are fiddling while Rome burns, lamenting over the poor Palestinians, who just happened to vote a terrorist organization funded by Iran (HAMAS) into power and are now suffering the consequences of their stupid decision.  They allow Hamas to launch rockets from their houses, school and hospitals, then blame the Israelis because Israel won’t be content to live with rockets bombing their border towns regularly.  And they blame Israel for the misery in their own lives caused by the leadership they voted in themselves. 

But Hamas knows it has the ear of the liberal press, who seems willing to buy the “we are victims” theory Hamas expertly sells to them, so they play the liberal press for all its worth.  Also knowing that 25% of Europe is now Muslim and the ultraliberals are supporting the breakdown of national laws to be supplanted by Shariah law in Muslim communities, including the support of “honor” killings in the U.K. in so-called Muslim communities.  So, it’s OK for Muslims to murder, but not the rest of the British population….  After all, it’s their RELIGION, and you can’t prevent someone from practicing their religion, can you?

Making Israel the scapegoat is like déjà vu all over again.  What did Hitler do?  Same thing.  Turn the [German] population against an ethnic group, demonize and dehumanize them, then murder them in the millions with the support of the rest of the population.  Hitler did it with the Germans.  The Muslims intend to do it with the entire world.

And all the poor Muslim moderates, where are they?  The silent Muslim majority.  Why? For two reasons, they want to keep their options open and see who wins the battle.  If the Western world wins, they were with us all along, but were too afraid of their own extremists to speak up.  If the Muslim world wins, then they are Muslim, after all, so they have nothing to lose, right?

While you wring your hands over the poor Palestinians and how the big, bad Israel is hurting them without cause (Year, right!), Iran is steadily working their way to joining the community of nations that possess nuclear weapons.  And if you think they won’t use those weapons, you are only kidding yourselves.

It’s like the story about the human playing with the poisonous snake.  He feeds it, cares for it, then one day it bites him.  And he acts surprised that the snake would do that to him after all he has done for the snake.  The snake’s reply, “It’s my nature….”

Well, Islam calls for the forced conversion or murder of all infidels as part of its religious tenets.  So, while you guys are lamenting the poor Palestinians, you’d better start making preparations to convert at the point of a sword, or die….

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By elizabethe, February 16, 2009 at 12:36 am Link to this comment

I despise war in this modern day and I despise the makers of technology who think they are offering “favors” by selling and planting dangerous weapons in the underdeveloped countries.

The people in a general election Never VOTED FOR WAR!

I suggest the problem for the present is that the U.S. people have not practiced democracy. America has a good document as amended, called the U.S. Constitution that frames a well balanced democracy, including the November General election which is NOT a “party contest”!  The election does require HONESTY and FAIRNESS to net success, and where the public is INFORMED.  The public did not see SIX and FOUR CHALLENGING the TWO the media forced. (media forced incumbents against proper change)

We do not have a actual functional democracy where the public insists on honest democracy and forces the presentation for a national INFORMED level. SIX not TWO as REAL and VIABLE. 

Our red ink in the trillions is not the result of an informed election, the approval of it is a corruption by the corrupt.

CERTAINLY for a valid election, the people have to be given HONEST and ACCURATE information and be allowed to see the incumbent agenda from the past—CHALLENGED by the CHALLENGERS!

Sovereignty of the people to rule at the ballot box, is not happening and has not happened.

We could make it happen.

The people in 50 states can force a voiding of the dishonest corrupt “rule” and use of our taxes, the people could insist on saying what candidate and what agenda that goes with the best candidate to deliver the agenda, SUCH AS PEACE and CUT THE MILITARY RED INK SPENDING and promote the legal peace required internationally and for the SAFETY of this country with a budget in the black and priorities and policies ON TRACK.

State by state, we could demand the SIX not TWO contest and then with the truth of the six candidates, four challenging the red ink warmongers who are the incumbents and are NOT the majority of the american public and who have NO RIGHT to use the taxes for THEIR CORRUPTION against the law and safety and peace policy, we could UNSEAT the corrupt..and FORCE A PROPER BELIEF that the BEST not only has a chance, but can and WILL WIN!  By a majority!

The people CAN DO IT. Declare “incumbents only” results VOID—insist the only VALID election is the CONTEST as truth of challengers against incumbents to net a winner for honest government by the people.

VOID two party corrupt rule against the people, and demand the SIX not TWO for an informed majority rule wanted by a nation.

Hillary Clinton and her threats against Iran which does not have and is on the record as not wanting nuclear weapons, while we do have them and so do at least six countries, Iran wants the Middle East FREE OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS.  Hillary has no proper peace intentions.

Hillary is corruption and unconscionable the media likes that!  I do not.

Peace is the only path to peace, and democracy means the incumbent corruption and tyranny must face the challengers and the PEOPLE RULE for the truth of the nation ENTIRELY FOR THE PUBLIC INTEREST not private corporate profit and greed.

Our government is for the people, not corporate corruption!

Democracy is by the people, and the restoration can happen, if 50 states declare the only valid election IS A SIX WAY CONTEST PUBLICLY SEEN FOR INFORMED RESULTS AT THE BALLOT BOX. We owe the “mind your own business” and honor international law. We are NOT a “broker”.

We are supposed to be a democracy whose taxes are for what the people agree to.  We did not agree to the red ink and the war.  Certain individuals have done these things as if it is a national will, it is not.  It is corruption of profiteers who are not offering ANYTHING.  The nation does not approve, and the Palestinians and Israelis do not either, as is easy enough to believe.

If we function as a proper democracy, we will be taking a huge step forward for America and safety for the world!

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By diamond, February 5, 2009 at 3:34 pm Link to this comment

Vancemack do you have a job? Or is going on truthdig to do Israeli propaganda your job?

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By Shingo, February 4, 2009 at 7:19 pm Link to this comment

Well waddya know?

“The U.S. and Iraqi militaries have made past claims without providing much evidence about efforts by insurgents to recruit vulnerable women as well as children as attackers. Those included statements by the Iraqis that two women who blew themselves up last year in Baghdad had Down’s Syndrome, accounts that were not supported by subsequent investigations.

It also was not possible independently to verify the claim that insurgents sent out people to rape women who could then be recruited as bombers in the volatile Diyala province northeast of Baghdad.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/03/iraq-arrests-female-suici_n_163505.html

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By KDelphi, February 4, 2009 at 3:16 pm Link to this comment

On average, the U.S gave more than $6.8 million to Israel each day and
gave $0.3 million to the Palestine each day during Fiscal Year 2007.

“Since the October War in 1973, Washington has provided Israel with a level of support dwarfing the amounts provided to any other state. It has been the largest annual recipient of direct U.S. economic and military assistance since 1976 and the largest total recipient since World War ll. Total direct U.S. aid to Israel amounts to well over $140 billion in 2003 dollars. Israel receives about $3 billion in direct foreign assistance each year, which is roughly one-fifth of America’s entire foreign aid budget. In per capita terms, the United States gives each Israeli a direct subsidy worth about $500 million per year. This largesse is especially striking when one realizes that Israel is now a wealthy industrial state with a per capita income roughly equal to South Korea or Spain.”

- John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen M. Walt
“The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy”


http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/usaid.html

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