Top Leaderboard, Site wide
Truthdig: Drilling Beneath the Headlines
July 26, 2017 Disclaimer: Please read.

Statements and opinions expressed in articles are those of the authors, not Truthdig. Truthdig takes no responsibility for such statements or opinions.

Truthdig Bazaar
Factory Girls

Factory Girls

By Leslie T. Chang

Cultural Politics

Cultural Politics

Marcy Darnovsky, Barbara Epstein and Richard Flacks

more items

Email this item Print this item

Only Nader Is Right on the Issues

Posted on Nov 3, 2008
AP photo / Jose Luis Magana

Independent presidential candidate Ralph Nader speaks during a news conference outside of the Nuclear Energy Institute in Washington.

By Chris Hedges

(Page 2)

The legacy of the Bush administration may be the codification of a world without treaties, statutes and laws. Bush may have bequeathed to us a world where any nation, from a rogue nuclear state to a great imperial power, will be able to invoke its domestic laws to annul its obligations to others. This new order will undo five decades of international cooperation—largely put in place by the United States—and thrust us into a Hobbesian nightmare. The exercise of power without law is tyranny.

If we demolish the fragile and delicate international order, if we do not restore a world where diplomacy, broad cooperation and the law are respected, we will see our moral and political authority disintegrate. We will erode the possibility of cooperation between nation-states, including our closest allies, and see visited upon us the evils we visit on others. Obama, like McCain, may tinker with this new world, but neither says they will dismantle it. Nader would.

Practical men and women do not stand up against injustice. The practical remain silent. A voice, even one voice, which speaks the truth and denounces injustice is never useless. It is not impractical. It reminds us of what we should strive to become. It defies moral concession after moral concession that leaves us chanting empty slogans.

When I sat on the summit of Mount Igman in my armored jeep, the engine idling, before nervously running the gantlet of Serb gunfire that raked the dirt road into the besieged city of Sarajevo, I never asked myself if what I was doing was practical. Forty-five foreign correspondents died in the city along with some 12,000 Bosnians, including 2,000 children. Some 50,000 people were wounded. Of the dead and wounded 85 percent were civilians. I drove down the slope into Sarajevo, which was being hit by 2,000 shells a day and under constant sniper fire, because what was happening there was a crime. I drove down because I had friends in the city. I did not want them to be alone. Their stories had become mine.


Square, Site wide, Desktop


Square, Site wide, Mobile
War, with all its euphemisms about surges and the escalation of troops and collateral damage, is not an abstraction to me. I am haunted by hundreds of memories of violence and trauma. I have abandoned, because I no longer cover these conflicts, many I care about. They live in Gaza, Baghdad, Jerusalem, Beirut, Kabul and Tehran. They cannot vote in our election. They will, however, bear the consequences of our decision. Some, if the wars continue, may be injured or killed. The quest for justice is not about being practical. It is required by the bonds we share. They would do no less for me.

1   2
Banner, End of Story, Desktop
Banner, End of Story, Mobile
Wages of Rebellion: The Moral Imperative of Revolt, By Chris Hedges, Truthdig Columnist and Winner of the Pulitzer Prize -- Get Your Autographed Copy Today Also Available! Truthdig Exclusive DVD of Chris Hedges' Wages of Rebellion Lecture The World As It Is: 
Dispatches on the Myth of Human Progress: A collection of Truthdig Columns, by Chris Hedges -- Get Your Autographed Copy Today

Keep up with Chris Hedges’ latest columns, interviews, tour dates and more at

Watch a selection of Wibbitz videos based on Truthdig stories:

Get a book from one of our contributors in the Truthdig Bazaar.

Related Entries

Get truth delivered to
your inbox every day.

New and Improved Comments

If you have trouble leaving a comment, review this help page. Still having problems? Let us know. If you find yourself moderated, take a moment to review our comment policy.

Join the conversation

Load Comments

By elizabethe, December 23, 2008 at 10:05 pm Link to this comment


1.  IMPEACHMENT will hold Bush accountable for his taking Congressional authority from Congress and declaring illegal wars.

2.  SUING the media for election fraud and consumer fraud forcing two party corruption as if unassailable because they were against the challengers netting national public view at every proper national view contest level, A-presentation of agenda and track records to support the challenging agendas of SIX not TWO for the nation to vote a mandate for REAL CHANGE not bankruptcy bailouts and war.  We wanted a budget in the black and priorities on track.  FOUR CHALLENGERS would lead democracy not autocracy, and peace over war, and budget for people not a military industrial complex of corporate racketeering against all sanity and safety and law and order; B-polls including SIX not TWO after the proper information about SIX not TWO was before the nation; and C-the debates, so the true contest with the proper prelude information so the public was prepared with the essentials for a true contest on the MERITS for a CHANGE and NEW AGENDA ON TRACK agreed by a majority of voters.  Not hype claims for change that have no reality in view.  Incumbents are not how to deliver democracy.  Vote the bums out is how to, but honest contest is and was due.  We are NOT a nation of RED and BLUE states to turn purple.  We are non-partisan by law, with parties producing candidates, and the four challengers were offering CHANGE for a NEW ON TRACK AGENDA.  The BEST of SIX was supposed to be PUBLIC INFORMED VOTED OPINION!  Two incumbents from the media choice is not democracy, it is two party corruption upheld by corrupt media who loves the undoing of our democracy and U.S. Constitution.  Restoration was due November 4th, but the CONTEST was the required Constitutional Majority RULE DECISION.

Report this

By cyrena, December 8, 2008 at 3:57 am Link to this comment

By Tony Wicher, December 7 at 10:42 pm #

“I knew if the majority voted for Nader he would WIN.”



Good one Tony!! wink

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, December 7, 2008 at 11:42 pm Link to this comment

“I knew if the majority voted for Nader he would WIN.”


Report this

By elizabethe, December 7, 2008 at 11:30 pm Link to this comment

October 26th, I was given a Tee Shirt with an N on the front, and, on the back, a list of Nader’s Accomplishment Track-which I already knew about, and had told people, look in the encyclopedia for the truth about Nader, the media doesn’t want you to know…they resented my critcism of the media resistance, but for this audience, I am posting the list from the Tee Shirt…and the reality that Nader is Right on the Issues, should not be a surprise, but CERTAINLY the media owes, the proper view that democracy allows the bums in office CHALLENGE by a strong contender to net POLITICAL JUSTICE and honest politics as the NEW STANDARD when corruption of our system is accused.  There is no two party system, only elected officials in office and the media lied, and wanted the NO CHANGE allowed, when they knew Bush shredded the U.S. Constitution and Obama could care less.

So, Nader?  He has shown leadership at a proven track and offered the public the opportunity to vote for honest leadership and force the change at the ballot box, with the power of a proven, credible REAL track record as the proper springboard for momentum of backing for what is wanted for our government leader at the helm:
1-Safe Drinking Water Act
2-Clean Air Act
3-Freedom of Information Act
4-Environmental Protection Agency
5-Seatbelts/Airbags/Tire Safety
6-Consumer Protection Act
7-Whistleblower Protection Act
8-National Traffic & Motor Vehicle Safety Act
9-Clean Water Act
10-Occupational Safety and Health Administration

That was on the back of the Tee.  I got my tee from the MA state coordinator because I was a ballot access petitioner, and helped get Nader on the ballot in MA in 2008.  The same coordinator and I worked together in 2004.

Nader on his own track as an Independent Candidate certainly has HUGE leadership to offer the Federal Government and Congress.

The man who founded the Environmental Protection Agency (you can find photos in their website archives and the pollution and smog, likely Los Angeles, in the background.)ought to be welcomed by the media when offering a presidential bid to unseat the bums and the corruption and shredding of our democracy.

In a democracy a challenge to the status quo is the very pith of the required view before the nation.  But, the two parties were so corrupt they refused to permit the public the truth, they lied, and said they owned the votes at a complete two party control.

After 2004, I checked the voter registration statistics.  Discovered 24 states do not register party.  That makes 82 million registered voters registered non-partisan.  Free to believe they can choose the best.  And, of the 26 states who declare party, 21.3 million “declined to state” and chose unaffiliated.  Add 82 to 21.3 and you get over 100 million against the 62 million in the COMBINED TWO PARTIES who lied and said THEY RULE.  They are IN OFFICE AND THE public CAN demand democracy and expose the truth and demand the proper polls and proper debates and honest agenda, track and debates should net honest democracy.

Cyncism as if real, gets the present reality.

And, of course, Nader is still standing, and is RIGHT ON THE ISSUES, and has a track to match.

Report this

By elizabethe, December 4, 2008 at 10:17 pm Link to this comment

Why anyone thinks they deserve democracy when they vote a lie, I cannot fathom.  If you wanted Nader, say so and vote so, and know the majority must vote truth to win, and if Nader is not your truth, why cannot you admit you prefer voting corruption against the truth of a democracy for life, liberty, and happiness, and you prefer death and destruction as the path to predatory hell and ruination of your country, that obvious was what the two parties are very engaged in, and the media said you people you voters are not supposed to expect to know who can win, we offer the polls that lie to force the two party corruption as REALITY for you to believe…and, yes, Obama knows that is the reality he wants people to choose, and end up with corpses everywhere voted for, oh yes, he spills the blood verbally and chest thumps his popularity and the audience clapped, I would hiss and boo, and say, “Whose blood are you offering to spill before you even get elected, Obama?  Whose?  Your two little daughters?  Your policies suggest that!  Unprovoked war, will net long drawn out war.  Unwanted, unprovoked, and oh yes, policy cowards fake everything, Obama will seek excuses for all his misdeeds just as Bush has done.  Obama is a proven hypocrit of the worst sort, even Bush had not been as bad.  But, McCain or Obama?  That was NOT the choice before the nation, there were SIX not TWO and EVERYONE WHO KNEW WHO NADER WAS, should have seen him as THE WINNER, but no, they fled from democracy and voted democracy out, entirely.  Bush has more to claim for democracy than obama.  Obama has the hindsight of the violations and abuses against the proper democracy of A-Congress decides war, not the President, 535 people representing a nation of 50 states, and B-the Presidential Election is supposed to net an informed contest with a winner for change if the public wants the change, and 89% said they do,  but the media told them they could only vote two parties and the frontrunners IN OFFICE when those were DUE OUT, that was not the media choice, the media chose corruption as their reporting as if public but it was theirs, not ours.

I voted for Nader in 2000, 2004, and 2008.  I knew if the majority voted for Nader he would WIN.

The media did not want Nader in the picture.  I told people he is in the encyclopedia.  People resented that.  they assumed the media was saying what the people wanted!  At least, I figured that must be what they resented.  I also realized they resented THEIR VOTE MATTERED AND THEY HAD TO VOTE RESPONSIBLY or we all suffer the consequences, and they didn’t want to know they had to figure out the best truth on the ballot and so the talk and the walk, for HONEST politics as proper and REAL.

100 million non-partisan voters are registered nationally while only 62 million are in the combined two parties.  The Democrats preferred to lie and to say a Vote for Nader was for Bush, LIBEL in the extreme.  They knew that of course, Kerry, and Gore, took a villains trophy and the media pushed it, because the media seems to like illegal wars! Scary sells?  people are supposed to stand up and challenge the corruption with their ballot power.  Nader was on the ballot and anyone who thought he should be President OWED their vote to be honest to net democracy and proper honest government.  Anyone who refused, obvious WANTED THE RESULT OF THEIR CHOICE.  Hello!  I voted Nader, I like him and the U.S. Constitution.  He is my hero, and my favorite.  I am not alone!

To hear and see Obama offering chest thumping bad policy war, go to click on “issues” and then drop down menu to “foreign policy” and look and listen to his cowardice and offer of spilling blood, told in advance, and now in almost there, progress.

Report this

By debbie steele, December 2, 2008 at 1:25 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The amount of money that is exchanged in presidential nominations sets in place the continuation of corporate america.Having two corporate parties that have had the same brutal foreign policy for U.S. business interests is not change.I voted for Ralph Nader because his political platform is real,he is a man of integrity.He is honest.He would not sell out.Why do people say compromise is neccesary to keep the same foriegn policy and corruption going? He is a man who wants peace, who speaks the truth about the realities and dangers of the industrial-military complex.Democrats who want to have an american empire our not much of a change.You can go to Ralph Nader and Matt Gonzales website for real information and options to be taken. Also ACLU’s website where recommendations on what must be done are listed.Others listed are stopthe, and

Report this

By Folktruther, November 11, 2008 at 3:28 pm Link to this comment

Oh, I agree, Anarcissie, we have to try.  Pesssimism of the intellect, optimism of the will, as Gransci put it.

Report this
Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, November 11, 2008 at 1:44 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther—no doubt the incoming administration will easily split the imperialist “progressives” from the anti-war “progressives”.  That has already happened as you can see on this web site and everywhere else.  I am not talking about achieving a ruling majority, however, but about making trouble—about maintaining a public critique. 

Of course the Left will be slandered—that goes without saying.  The point is to subvert the atmosphere of worship and obedience with some common sense, not to win a popularity contest.

Report this

By KDelphi, November 10, 2008 at 11:36 pm Link to this comment

Tom Paine—Scary stuff—good link. Thanks.

I, too, hope that I am wrong about almost everything—except my strong faith that the Am people will act at some point and take back their country.

Some are talking about going to inauggeration—but , I think it would end up like Denver.Also, many (me) probably cannot afford it.

The problem with not acting to end the war(s), is, of course, that we will still be at war. But, it is also an indication of how much “change” the govt is willing to implement , to bend to the will of the people.

Funding these wars also severely limits what else we can fund.

Report this

By Folktruther, November 10, 2008 at 9:53 pm Link to this comment

No, Anarcissie, Obama can separate the imperialist Progressives from the anti-imperialist progressives and isolate the latter.  He then can unite the imperialists with the indifferent middle of Dem-Gops to support an imperialist foreign policy, the War on Terrorism.

The anti-imperialist left will then be sleazed by the mass media as unpatriotic, communists, paranoids, conspiracy theories, etc in the usual way.
And the wars will go on.

Frankly, I don’t see how he can politically stop the Afghanistan war without weakening Nato and be saddled with the loss.  Which will be brought up at the next election.  I may be wrong, I HOPE I’m wrong, but I think there will be troops fighting in both countries in the 2012 election, as well as in Pakistan.  Obiden is EXPANDING the war in Afghanistan to avoid losing it.

Report this

By Tom Paine, November 10, 2008 at 7:40 pm Link to this comment

The sad truth is that Obama is a puppet. This is who is meeting with as his top priority and this is why all the savvy media says not to get your hopes up. You’ve been had.

See these facts.

I don’t think that Obama has any intention of meeting with Nader, liberals, or the left. Moving to the “center” after the neocons is like moving to Utah. 

“Meanwhile, a series of statements by leading Democratic figures have emphasized their intention to pursue a “centrist” policy—by which they mean a conventional, i.e., right-wing, policy.

Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi, Democrat of California, spelled this out in no uncertain terms on Wednesday, advising Obama that he must “bring people together to reach consensus” on issues like the economy and the war. “A new president must govern from the middle,” she said.

Leon Panetta, former chief of staff to Bill Clinton, said, “He’s got to lower some expectations, indicate the limits he’s confronting.”

Good night and good luck!

Report this
Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, November 10, 2008 at 4:48 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther, KDelphi—I don’t agree that “we” don’t have leverage.  Obama and his friends are already looking ahead.  Much of their work will simply be to repair the damage (from the ruling-class point of view) which Bush’s inept regime has wrought.  But they will also be trying to put forward positive programs which will keep their supporters happy and on board.  Now, suppose a lot of people start demanding an end to the various wars started by Bush.  Obama will have to deal with it or risk losing much of his support.  He may deal with it in a tricky way, but he won’t be able to shrug it off.  At least, I don’t think he will be able to.

Of course, I don’t know how to put a million people in the street.  Much of the time the number of people I can put into the street approximates one.

Report this
smendler's avatar

By smendler, November 10, 2008 at 11:13 am Link to this comment

Hi Anarcissie - I don’t think it’s an either/or kind of situation.  Right now, Obama is meeting with a bunch of different folks - I want to make sure that Nader and other progressive leaders are among the folks he’s talking to,  not just now but in the future.  We should *also* be organizing mass actions to get our points across; the two aren’t contradictory.

Report this

By Folktruther, November 10, 2008 at 10:39 am Link to this comment

Anarcissie and KDelphi are both right; putting a milliion people on Obama’s doorstep is much more effective than leaders conferring, and this could have been done more effectively during the election.

But Roosevelt was influenced by the strikes at the beginning of his administration, which led to the New Deal.  What schoolbook history obscures is that he never ended the Depression until he manuvered a reluctant population into war.  Unfortunately, political leaders are closer students of power than the population, and Obama is a good student.

Report this

By KDelphi, November 9, 2008 at 9:15 am Link to this comment

elianita55—Youre welcome! And thanks for the link!

Go Brian Moore!

Viva Amerika Libre! (Humor me folks)

Report this

By KDelphi, November 9, 2008 at 8:51 am Link to this comment

Anarcissie—It might work, to put a million people on Obama’s doorstep. But I suggest that it would have been far more likely to work during the campaign.

That was when we had leverage.

Similarly , the thousands of people who appeared at Bush’s Stolen HOuse, after Obama was elected—all good an well. But, just think if they had done it before we invaded Iraq—when the decision was still being made? What if they had hounded Congress the way they did over the bailout (which didnt work—it has to be when you have leverage). Or, if we had even been able to get enough people to do a decent protest—what then?

We shall never know.

Report this

By elianita55, November 9, 2008 at 8:39 am Link to this comment

KDelphi - thanks for the compliment!
The most complete report on third party candidate results I’ve found is on AOL (available at It credits Brian Moore with 6,563 popular votes.

Report this
Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, November 9, 2008 at 7:14 am Link to this comment

I’ve set up a petition urging Obama to meet with Nader….


I suggest pushing issues rather than not-so-great Great Leaders.  For instance, there are millions of people who are opposed to the standard U.S. policy of imperialism and world domination and the endless war which it necessitates, whereas there were only a few hundred thousand who cared to vote for Mr. Nader.  There is a set of existing organizations and an existing movement to express that opposition.  Mr. Nader can join if he likes.  If the anti-war movement could put a million people on Obama’s doorstep, he might listen to that.  He is not likely to meet with a candidate who got 1/6 of one percent of the popular vote and has no party to back him up, brilliant or righteous though the fellow may be.

Report this
smendler's avatar

By smendler, November 8, 2008 at 6:50 pm Link to this comment

Hi Chris—

I’ve set up a petition urging Obama to meet with Nader as soon as possible:

It’s pretty clear that if progressives want Obama’s ear, we’re going to have to make a lot of noise if we are to get past all the Status Quo folks (such as were on display in his “economic brain trust”...!)

Report this

By KDelphi, November 8, 2008 at 11:22 am Link to this comment

MeHere—Thanks you! Nader is 74 years old! In the 60s and 70s, “Uncle Tom” was used to refer to people who were considered race or class “traitors”. When I first heard it, I was a little taken aback. Then I listened to the video.

If you really think that Nader is a racist, I just think you are wrong. Jackson and others have questioned Obamas’s loyalty to the “black community” (that was what the sign held up by Af Am young men said! They were chanted down by a junior high age white kid, who got the crowd yelling, Yes we can!” until Obama interceded)) in a less eloquent way, if anyone recalls….

I have also heard Nader called a “anti-semetic Marxist”. Nader is none of the three. Marx was born a Jew, as most know. He was baptizeed and raised Lutheran , but soon became an atheist. The Commnist Party in the uS backed—Obama. The Socialist party VP was Af Am. Nader is a Social Democrat, to my way of thinking.He was formerly of teh Green Party. McKinney ran as a Green.

Stop taking yourselves so damn seriously ‘Merka! The Dems won—every PDA should be thrilled. Everyone should be thrilled that Bush will be gone.

Obama is so laid back—maybe you should take a cue from him.

Report this

By Paracelsus, November 8, 2008 at 11:20 am Link to this comment

On MSNBC, Matthews saw a pic of Sarkozy on a boat, with Bush (I think!!), and it showed hs “rolls” over his bathing suit. I guess Sarkozy complained. Matthews says, “Well, we’ll just have to let Sarkozy know that we dont treat our politicians like royalty here!” . Ew! Got him! Snap, Matthews! Sarkozy is on Martha’s Vineyard with Bush at his family comopound, on a yaght! Showed those snobby old french how “everyman” OUR politicians are!

Does that mean we get to Barbara Bush’s fat rolls? Not that I am all that eager for it. Frankly I have revolted myself. I gotta ralph. Sorry!

Report this

By cann4ing, November 8, 2008 at 11:12 am Link to this comment

Oops, made an error in the link.  Mea culpa!

Here’s the right link:

Report this

By cann4ing, November 8, 2008 at 11:10 am Link to this comment

One of Obama’s first acts as President-Elect reveals that he is the anti-Cheney.  Where Cheney’s penchant for secrecy is legendary, Obama’s first act was to open a website to insure transparency.

Report this

By KDelphi, November 8, 2008 at 11:07 am Link to this comment

MeHere—Yes a Catch-22 is what it is. No one seems to be concerned about it here—I know that people travel more than they used to. I just dont get it.Actually, the oldest living monarhcy in the world—Danmark—would never give so much power to the sovereign as we give to the “commander in chief”. In the UK—you know, the sily old Magna Carta gets in the way of one person rule.

On MSNBC, Matthews saw a pic of Sarkozy on a boat, with Bush (I think!!), and it showed hs “rolls” over his bathing suit. I guess Sarkozy complained. Matthews says, “Well, we’ll just have to let Sarkozy know that we dont treat our politicians like royalty here!” . Ew! Got him! Snap, Matthews! Sarkozy is on Martha’s Vineyard with Bush at his family comopound, on a yaght! Showed those snobby old french how “everyman” OUR politicians are!

elianite55—Thanks for the most detailed information I can find on Third party candiates!I stil have no idea how much of the vote Brian Moore (sp-usa) got. My French is more than rusty—but, from Le Monde (etc.), it seems to be true what I have witnesssed—that people are much more comfortagbel talking about race (ie McKinney) in the rest of the world than in the US. I know it is our horrible history. But, we really need to be able to to talk more openly aboput race, class , gender, if you ask me.Being “politically correct” all the time makes one suspect racism. Perhaps Obama will help with that.

He is trying, with a little self-effacing humor—I think that it humanizes him. Someone had better, before people start expecting him to walk on the Potomac.

It is good to hear that the Green Party is making headway—I will have to check it out. It is certainly a very viable party in most of the “democratic” world. US “addiction” to the duopoly serves no one but the duopoly.

Report this

By MeHere, November 8, 2008 at 10:53 am Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind recently called Nader nothing less than a racist because of his “Uncle Tom/Uncle Sam” comments.  Nader was not referring to Obama personally. He was simply wondering about the kind of government Obama would have and its impact on black issues. I’ve heard some black thinkers and other black citizens expressing the same exact concerns. Please, let’s give “racism” a rest as a discussion tool and try to look instead at the real issues underlying the racist labels.

Report this

By KDelphi, November 8, 2008 at 10:41 am Link to this comment


From “Dumass-cus News” (by Kdelphi)

President-Elect Barack Obama is said to be banned from many “liberal” US websites for his racist remark about “mutts like me”! The “audacity”!

Report this

By MeHere, November 8, 2008 at 8:30 am Link to this comment

Thanks, Anarcissie, for replying to my question.  I would like to pursue this subject further so if anyone has information, please post.  A thought I have is that Nader may not want to ally himself with those in the Green Party who favor voting for Democrats in those states where Republicans have a chance to win.

I believe that the Greens are now more interested in building Green support from the bottom up than in anything else. And they’ve had some successes.  Many don’t realize how incredibly hard it is for third-party candidates to run for any level of political office. You seem to believe that there’s no interest in Congress, State legislature, etc.but I can assure you there is.  Actually, the very reason many of us don’t want to support a Democrat in national elections is because we know that everything depends very much on all those other government institutions and lobbies that are entrenched in power and operate the same way regardless of who the president is.  But what can we do, other than to keep trying to build support for third-party alternatives?  Having been involved in this at the local level, I can assure you that it is a very difficult task.

I’ve had many conversations with people who are fed up with the two parties. However, they tell me they are disappointed with third-party candidates because they don’t seem to do enough to reach voters and they can’t win. This Catch-22 is quite amazing: people won’t vote for third parties because they don’t have a powerful campaign and media machinery—but, without support/votes, third parties cannot grow.

In the meantime, yes, the monarchy sails on.  It is rather enlightening to observe the course of politics in terms of the the country being an empire.  Lots of things become quite clear.

Report this

By elianita55, November 8, 2008 at 2:48 am Link to this comment

One of the least discussed side effects of Obama’s landslide victory is the further marginalization of third parties in the United States.
As someone that lives in Europe, it is hard to not notice that the United States seems isolated among Western democracies in its determination to head to a further entrenchment in a bipolar political landscape.
Third party candidates are a vital part of the democratic process. Yet the United States’ political system deliberately hinders pluralism by limiting the exposure of third party candidates to media.
For more:

Report this

By Tom Paine, November 7, 2008 at 11:53 pm Link to this comment

Yes, Cyrena, Obama has an agenda. Of course. That’s what I said. What I also said is that MM (and I) hope that he leid about his stated agenda. The agenda that he stated was rewarding the Wall Street swindlers, accelerating the war in Afghanistan, subsidizing nuclear power, subsidizing the fantasy of clean coal, giving Israel a blank check, FISA, the Patriot Act, you know all those great things and more that Pelosii and the Democrats have become famous for. Simply that is not my agenda, so simply that is why I didn’t vote for Obama and won’t support him. You will ahve to accept that as my right to voice my decision. Mighty liberal of you!

As I said, this isn’t about Ralph Nader, but the future for my grand kids. That’s what I will continue to fight for—One battle is over but not the war.

I understand why you guys are so afraid of Ralph Nader. Yeah he is a scary dude. LOL!

Good night and good luck!


Report this

By KDelphi, November 7, 2008 at 10:04 pm Link to this comment

cyrena—Almost everybody who has ever written an article has a website now.

Just google their name.

Or were you being facecious.

I should know—people whose names I dont even know know exactly where I live, etc.

BTW—What happened with your moving situation? Just wondered.

Report this

By cyrena, November 7, 2008 at 9:29 pm Link to this comment

By cann4ing, November 7 at 3:59 pm #

By KDelphi, November 7 at 1:40 pm #

cann4ing—I didnt mention Norman Soloman or some of his friends, becuase—well, could you ask them (and Craig Brown) to please stop banning me from their websites?


You actually think “I” banned you from their websites.  How and when did I do that?


I didn’t know they had websites. I’ve always read Norman Soloman’s work on a variety of other sources. Thanks for the tip.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, November 7, 2008 at 7:33 pm Link to this comment

I’m not sure I agree that the only solution is bloodshed.  If the French and the Germans can finally be friends and partners with the Italians and the British, ANYBODY can make peace, if they all want it.

Other than that, your analysis was very insightful. It’s making me think about some different perspectives.


Report this
Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, November 7, 2008 at 7:05 pm Link to this comment

MeHere: ‘I would very much appreciate hearing from someone who knows exactly why the Greens and Nader are not together in one party.  I am a supporter of both groups.  Thanks. ... ‘

The gossip is that Nader is a big egotist who doesn’t get along much with other people.  Given the microscopic votes for both the Green Party and Nader, I don’t suppose it makes much difference this time around.  In my version of the election, maybe a dozen people were running for president, but only three were running for Congress, the non-mainstreamer being a Libertarian.  No Green Party candidate.  The monarchy sails on, meanwhile all the dissidents and radicals have nothing to say about Congress, the State senate and assembly, or the judiciary.  Too low for their radar, I guess.

Report this

By cyrena, November 7, 2008 at 6:52 pm Link to this comment

•  “What I see is an agenda. Of course I hope (liek MM) that I am wrong.”

I hope you’re right Tom. I would think that we would ALL like to SEE and COMPREHEND an AGENDA!! Christ on a cracker! Why did you support ANY President/Administrator if you didn’t think they had an AGENDA for arranging to provide what the citizens need and want from their government?

There is ALWAYS an ‘agenda’. Do you honestly believe the last 8 years haven’t epitomized the 40 year old AGENDA of Richard B Cheney et al? No, he/they certainly didn’t tell YOU/US what THEIR agenda was. But they damn sure had one, and it’s damn sure been successful, for THEM!

So yeah, in case you haven’t been paying attention for the past couple of years, Obama has an agenda. A few of the priorities…getting us out of Iraq, the economy, health care,  renewable energy, global warming and education are on it as well. Seems like CHANGE from the misery of an authoritarian government is the highest priority. Just wanna try to keep from losing any more citizen souls to the slippery slope or the pull of the abyss.

That’s the agenda.


Thanks for your very insightful input on this thread, (and all others over the years as well). These comments verbalized so of my frustrations born of the contradiction in this historical time. It’s almost a bittersweet experience for me at least, because on the one hand, there is something so overwhelmingly and profoundly PROGRESSIVE and POSITIVE about the fact that the American people have elected an African-American to be President. And, in my community at least, (along with a few others I’ve had to honor to visit) that has been so OBVIOUS! People are walking around congratulating each other, and smiling at every black person they see, (and at each other of course, since around here, there aren’t too many people of color) and you can tell that they are downright PROUD of themselves, and so am I!

On the other hand, these same people (or at least 52% of them) actually passed Prop. 8! I mention this because I was SHOCKED to learn today, that my own sister actually voted for it. And I mention THAT, because it became clear almost immediately, that she didn’t REALLY know or understand the context of that legislation. Now this is the part that shocked me, because she’s actually pretty smart, and fairly logical. So it wasn’t until I began questioning her about WHY she supported something like this, that I learned she didn’t really understand it. She tried to defend it, only making things worse by saying that she ‘didn’t have any problem with’ Civil Unions. It was very lame, which simply pissed her off. I felt bad for her, but angry that we’ve become so susceptible to ideological group think, and then become psyched out when we feel compelled to defend something that we haven’t really thought out for ourselves. (even when we think we have). Such as it was with her. I think it’s a result of certain personalities and ideologies combined with the terror inflicted upon us for the past 8 years.
Still…I’m worried. This is just such a damn slippery slope time.

Report this

By KDelphi, November 7, 2008 at 6:19 pm Link to this comment

cann4ing—Oh…dense I am.

Hello. Can I read your article?

Or am I being denser stil….

Report this

By KDelphi, November 7, 2008 at 5:32 pm Link to this comment

cann4ing—No, I didnt say that you did. But, that is where Soloman’s article is today (they still send me the newslsetter!), but I cannot click on the article.

But that is just fine with you? How can I respect people like that? It cannot influence my opinion if I cannot read it.

I am not the only one, and that is not the only site (well for me it is) I just think that the censorhsip of the Left( so common among the neo-cons) has to stop. They say they want to build a “broad progesive coalition”—but not include anyone who disagrees? Not include Naderites? Not include Socialists?

I did not bring up Soloman. But it is a little harder to respect the opinions of someone who will not let people voice theirs.

One site of “banned” liberals is Distant Oceans.

I just find it utterly ridiculous. Most of these people are , in large part in agreement with the site. It is incomprehensible.

“He that complies against his will ...Is of his own opinion stil” Samuel Butler, 1612-1680 “Hudibra”

Report this

By cann4ing, November 7, 2008 at 4:59 pm Link to this comment

By KDelphi, November 7 at 1:40 pm #

cann4ing—I didnt mention Norman Soloman or some of his friends, becuase—well, could you ask them (and Craig Brown) to please stop banning me from their websites?


You actually think “I” banned you from their websites.  How and when did I do that?

Report this

By Paracelsus, November 7, 2008 at 3:18 pm Link to this comment

@ Inherit The Wind

I can offer a viewpoint on the issue through some people I became acquainted with. Many people from Israel/West Palestine come to this country saying they are from somewhere else both the Palestinian fellow and the Israeli family initially told me they came from Russia.

The Palestinian was named Mohammad. He was always awkward round girls as he came off as rudely aggressive or painfully shy. I offered that he might do better with a marriage broker. He was a very clingy fellow at the university. Fellow students would say that they had to run away from him. I don’t think bad of it. I think he was very insecure. He was very adept at mathematics. His clinginess was purely from being stuck at a childish level of socializing with people. He was jumpy and and reactive. You wanted to reassure him that every thing was okay. I feel bad about almost getting in a fight with him because he was such a pest as a jumpy 6 year old in a man’s body could be. I still get a tight feeling in my throat when I think of him to this day. Clearly things weren’t right with him.

I did some business with an Israeli family that wanted to plant security cameras all over their retail outlets. They felt that they could not trust their employees. They were good people, but they seemed so uncertain of their reality as well. They told me that they came from Russia as well.

As to Israel, no nation can come into existence without theft, fraud, and bloodletting. Was the establishment of Israel a holy undertaking fought against blood thirsty Arabs with absolutely no redeeming qualities? No! Reality can’t be that cartoonish.

If we look at the establishment of Rome it started in war and bloodletting. A painting commemorates it as the Rape of Sabine Lock. Clearly the British mandate overrode the will of original inhabitants of Palestine through the enforced immigration of European Jews upon the Arab inhabitants. Even the folks at the Israeli embassy will agree with me on the proviso of a sort lifeboat morality.

In isolation we can look at the establishment of Israel as a bloody immoral conquest, but in the full picture there is the fact that there has never been a refuge for Jews in persecution in Europe. Every moral objection to the establishment of Israel is answered by the double bind of persecution in Europe. “Surely you don’t support the destruction Jewry world over by saying that the state of Israel was immorally established?! Surely you would not want to destroy the panic room of Israel for future endangered generations?!” You have a damning inquiry and accusation all in those interrogatives.

At heart to these past persecutions is the theology of the New Testament. If one were to be a literalist Christian, then one would have to absorb the teachings of Jesus in his condemnations of the Jews. It is always the Jews who acted as Jesus’s enemies. As usual to our psychopathic civilization the chaos gets cooked into the founding principles of our religious and political institutions. There always seem to be a point of cleavage in our philosophies where kings and emperors can use the doubly binding arguments for wars, starvations, and ethnic cleansings. Our country’s founding documents seemed to be brewed potions of future discontent from the Declaration of Independence’s insistence that all men are created equal to the detestable rationalization of the Constitution that each slave is worth 3/5’s of a citizen.

In whole there doesn’t seem to be a religion or a political philosophy that has an inherent moral integrity. There always seems to be some binding statement that is used as a causus belli to promote conflict and sorrow.

As to the Israeli mess, in time a solution will be made, and it will be rather psychopathic in operation. An Israeli Romumulus will bind the unboundable. The Gordian knot of the West Bank will find its sword. It won’t need deftness or cleverness or peaceful compromise to untie it.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, November 7, 2008 at 2:59 pm Link to this comment

Luckily, TP, for Israel, they don’t listen to you and your definitions of “zionism” as large-scale jingoist vision to toss out all non-Jewish Arabs from Greater Palestine…Only the right half of Likud, a bunch of crazies, wants that.  The rest of the “zionists” you condemn simply want a safe, peaceful Israel.  The lie is that YOU tar them (and me) as all being like that nutty religious minority.

I know you’ll say differently, but that IS the lie.

I know you love Nader and Nader hates “Zionists” (and, now, we know he is a racist as well, calling President-Elect Obama an “Uncle Tom”).  But, while I used to think a certain fact unimportant, I now am disturbed that Nader is, after all, a Lebanese Arab by descent, and is merely taking the position leaders from HIS ethnic group advocate on “Zionism”. It’s his ethnicity: Whose ox is being gored?

I’ll be glad when this thread is demoted to Page 2, or better, page 3.  The election’s over and Nader is done until 2012….

Report this

By KDelphi, November 7, 2008 at 2:40 pm Link to this comment

cann4ing—I didnt mention Norman Soloman or some of his friends, becuase—well, could you ask them (and Craig Brown) to please stop banning me from their websites? I cant exactly form an opinion if I cant read the articles.

Students for a Non-Democratic Society?

Report this

By cann4ing, November 7, 2008 at 1:44 pm Link to this comment

KDelphi, PDA supports the Conyers/Kucinich single payer plan, HR 676.  I think it vital that progressives press their members of Congress to support that measure as the “only” real reform—universal coverage is a scam that merely extends subsidies to the insurance industry.

Report this

By Tom Paine, November 7, 2008 at 1:34 pm Link to this comment


You don’t read well or you are twisting things on purpose. You don’t know Zionsim from Psionism. Your distractions are not working for either of us.

Like it or not, there exist Zionist Jews and non-Zionist Jews. The latter are the majority. I happen to be in the majority, marginalizing the view of the majority of Jews in teh name of being a defender of Jews, doesn’t work either. Of course that fact blows also your other arguments also… but why should I bother further. It’s up to you to have some integrity or not. 

Politics for me is not a purely personal matter, rather it has to do with other people, family, friends, neighbors, habitat, future generations as well as the price of food, shelter, energy, and health. Those are real issues, not red herring distraction ad hominem arguments. 

Thank you for sharing so generously your original opinions on teh burning issues of the time.


Report this

By Inherit The Wind, November 7, 2008 at 12:26 pm Link to this comment

Amazing how as soon as I post something they don’t like TP and JS start calling me names…like they are being original.  They’re not.

I understand code words, TP, and your use of “Zionist” in 99 of 100 applications as a code word for Jews isn’t negated by your claiming that there are Christian Zionists and non-Zionist Jews.  In fact, YOUR definition of Zionism is ANYONE who doesn’t advocate the destruction of the state of Israel.  BTW, “Anti-semitism” doesn’t mean anti-any semitic peoples anymore than “butterfly” means a fly coated in butter. It means anti-Jews. Period.

I want the Palestinians to have their own nation. And I want Israel to remain a haven for Jews—the only one on the planet. I would VERY much like to see Israelis vote Likud into obscurity and disarm their nutty religious fanatics.  Then again, I’d like to see the Arab nations do the same to THEIR religious fanatics.

I stand by my contention that anyone who doesn’t see a difference between Clinton’s America and Bush’s America has their eyes screwed tightly shut.  I’m just really thankful none of you are in power, but Barack Obama is.

Oh, I don’t defend Truman’s use of atomic weapons on two simple cities. Truman was deliberately mislead by staff who knew he couldn’t absorb what he needed to know to make an intelligent decision.  Between them the two weapons murdered between 150,000 and 175,000 Japanese.  The 24 fire-bombing of Dresden killed as many civilians as died in BOTH Nagasaki and Hiroshima COMBINED!  However, estimates of wrongful deaths in Iraq due to Bush’s war range as high as 650,000 people—more than double the A-bombs and Dresden combined.

But to a parent who has lost a child, or a child who has lost a parent unjustly, the numbers don’t matter.

But I find it sickening that you, TP, are defending George W. Bush’s policies, and claiming they are no different than any Democrat’s.  If Bush was in office 4 more years, neither you nor I would be able to post here!

Report this

By KDelphi, November 7, 2008 at 12:01 pm Link to this comment

cann4ing—I want to admit something here. I re-read the PDA stance on health care—it is alot more progressive than I thought. At least in writing. (They did not sound that way at the conference—but, perhaps…) I am afraid that “incremental” will just block real national coverage and, possibly , other progressive issues.

But to say that I did not look into it is not true. Perhaps I am confusing their stance with Obama’s (which I jist heard again on tv—-tax based), and if so, I was wrong about that. It remains to be seen if anything they “suggest” wil be implemented.I guees I agree with them on substance, but, not tactics.I dont thinkt thaqt the Dem Party wil “cede” anything.

ITW—Chavez held a vote on a national referendum, to decide whether he shoudl be able to “run for president for life”. FOX News and others were all geared up , like “Gee, I wonder how this will turn out!! LOL!”. Well, it failed. And Chavez agreed to abide by it. When the alternative is US Chicago School Imperialism or Peru’s Shining Path or President Fujimori—I think that Venezuela is blessed to have Chavez and he them.
My brother in law is Jewish—he says that both Lieberaman and Biden are Zionists. Actually, alot of Christians are very Zionist.I think people have a right to their own country. I just think that Palestianiasn do , too. Israel is not being helped by our absolute endorsement of everything they do. It has us both in a “Folie au deux”.

Tom Paine—You make some very good points. I am going to read it over slowly a couple times (that is what I have to do sometimes) and think on it. Thanks.

Reminds me of “Your freedom ends where my nose begins”

Report this

By Tom Paine, November 7, 2008 at 11:40 am Link to this comment


You said that you have hope that Obama is listening/may listen, may give his ear, or is willing to listen. What gives you that hope?

What I see is an agenda. Of course I hope (liek MM)  that I am wrong.


Report this

By cann4ing, November 7, 2008 at 11:36 am Link to this comment

KDelphi, your latest post entails a reasonable and thoughtful response.  So that you understand where I am coming from, I would strongly urge that you listen to what Robert Kuttner had to say about the interplay between grass roots pressure, along with the realities of economic circumstance, and presidential policies.  That would give you a better insight into what I have in mind. ovement_that_propelled_obama

By the way, you left off your list of progressives in PDA, Norman Solomon.

Report this

By Tom Paine, November 7, 2008 at 11:35 am Link to this comment

IT Wind;
Goes to show plainly. You read in a ton of things that I never said. You switch and bait like a typical neocon, while avoiding the “issues”. LOL That’s not an adult conversation.

For example your error equating Zionist with being Jewish was absurd. when you imputed that I was anti-Semitic, just as you label criticism of Obama as a sell-out and liar as a racist slur. So to be correct, although most Zionists are Jewish, the majority of Jewish people are not Zionists. Semites include Palestinian people.

Dialogue helps people to confront their provincial and isolated delusions/illusions and expand their minds. When confronted with your illusions, you do not apologize or thank us, rather you defend your errors.  LOL You need correction, but are incorrigible so that is an impasse. IMO. The internet “could be” a good place to meet and learn from a wide variety of culturally diverse people, how they think and why, but it does require an open mind and willingness to listen.  For example, I have learned from you, how you think and have come to your conclusions, thanks. Although I do not agree with them, it is your right. That is the liberal in me, affording you the right to think for yourself.

Personally, I find the disease of our time is the confusion of the idea of freedom with the idea of autonomy where human beings think and act without integrity or consideration of the whole system, such as habitat, ecology, or community. In short autonomy where a human believes itself to be separate and apart from the process of the greater community of creation and natural systems, rather than a vital part of it. That self identity is not freedom, rather it is an escape from freedom, and leads to autonomous/delusional thinking and isolation.

Certainly one is free to think as they please, but such is merely delusion. Delusion brings about dysfunction and destroys community and vital human   action. Would you not agree?

Comparisons require benchmarks. For example if you compare Truman with Bush in terms of weapons of mass destruction against civilian targets, the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed more innocent civilians than GW ever did (not to argue the WWII here but just stating that benchmarks figure) Similarly, LBJ was at the helm when 60,000 American soldiers were killed in action or MIA in Vietnam, while Bush was responsible for only 4 thousand or so GI deaths. So GW looks pretty good in that comparison. Then you are silent on Obama’s hawkish stance on Afghanistan, FISA, the Patriot Act, and his silence on the totalitarian trend of the concentration of power to the executive branch. All of which are counter to my personal values. Then conveniently you impute that my position is Marxist. LOL I suppose that’s convenient for you to project that I was an anti-Semite, Marxist, and racist, but I am certain that you, you have no clue my views, because it is very foreign to your own experience. That type of imputation lacks self awareness and integrity and hence is a useless waste of my time. If I continue, I assume that I will only precipitate more bleeding. I am hoping that you do not represent the average new-age Obama faith based mindset, and eventually you will be able to evaluate his actions with open eyes. It’s plain to see.

“Johnny’s in the bas’ment
mixing up the medicine,
I’m on the pavement,
thinking bout the government”

Bob Dylan


Report this

By KDelphi, November 7, 2008 at 11:16 am Link to this comment

cann4ng—I am so tired of the PDA—I get daily news from them!! I maintain that they are not “progressive enough for me” . Is that better?? If I can SAY THAT without gettting banned, maybe…I think that many groups underestimate how offensive that is to individuals in this country particualarly from teh “Left”.

For “supporting single payer” they said nothing about it in the campaign. I just dont believe in them “get them in, then ask them to do whats right” theory. Apparently you do. Conyers was at the conference. Obama had plenty of opportunites to endorse HR 676. Plenty of people asked him—but pDA did not.
It is NOT just about “health care”—it is about an attitude that they “owe us nothing”.

And stop fear-mongering about “violent revolution ”
Power cedes nothing. That is what I think.

From their latest emailing (which I receive , so far..)



“Our job, now, will be to work with Obama, to transform the transformational man into a true progressive : 

If you believe Obama needs our help to enact a truly progressive administration, than you’ll want to help PDA in this work. Help contribute to our work of lobbying in D.C., in maintaining our excellent and influential web site,...” 



Progressive Democrats of America is a grassroots PAC that works both inside the Democratic Party and outside in movements for peace and justice. Our goal: Elect a permanent, progressive majority in 2008.

PDA’s advisory board includes seven members of Congress and activist leaders such as Tom Hayden, Medea Benjamin, Thom Hartmann, Jim Hightower and Rev. Lennox Yearwood.


Now if that is “progresive ” to you—fine. It is not to me.I argued with them in Denver (online) and they made it very clear.  If you belong to them—great. Lets see how much they get down. I wish you well.

All I see are a bunch of “suggestons” (along with copious praise), which remind me of teh House Hearings, wavering answers so as not to offend anyone.

The “better angels” stuff really sounds like bs to me, too.

Oh, and I did this…since most insisted in not confronting Obama during the campaign about it—it is, in my mind, a pretty futile gesture.

I actualy did it about a year ago. The reaction from the Dems was underwhelming!!

” You asked for your e-mail address to be added to list ‘pda-singlepayer’.
If you want this action to be taken, please…”


“In the meantime, PDA also supports health care initiatives at the state and local level that moves toward a nonprofit Single-payer health care system.[3]”

Am I an absolutist when it comes to this? Absolutely! Partly because I have been so personally affected amd know so many who have. Another reason is that I think that the uS NOT having a natl single payer system is symbolic of the attitude that both parties have towards the average USAn. It flies in the face of the policies of every civilized nation and the Human Rights Council. This is not something that PDA has “com e up with”—I was in Europe 20 years ago and we have been fighting for it ever since! NO, incremental changes are not enough. NOt for 20,000 people this year alone.It is way way past time.

Why is the death of a child from a abscess tooth not violence?

Any culture that can stand by and let this happen for as long as it has, I feel, is a culture that can do many other violent things because, in truth it cares not much for its citizens—especialy the poor.Do you not agree that it is indicative of a govt that doesnt answer to the people that we have so much poverty, honmelesness and war? I think that they are all tied in.

If I “join in on the conference call”, and express a strong opinion, I would probably be censored again—I am very , very tired of that.

It is not I who will not work with the Dems anymore.It is they who move at a snail’s pace on life or death issues while people die.

Report this

By Shirley, November 7, 2008 at 9:21 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I had respect for McCain until this election, He no longer gets my respect.
I have respect for Nader, but its growing thin, if he really cares about this country, try to get Obama’s ear with some of his good ideas.  I am beginning to feel its an EGO trip (as was McCain’s)
This seems to be two OLD MEN, who cannot moves out of the spot light.
Its time to move on with younger, newer ideas

Report this

By cann4ing, November 7, 2008 at 9:16 am Link to this comment

By KDelphi, November 6 at 3:48 pm #

Since the PDA (“Progressive Dems of Am”)runs half teh Dem Party now , I am going out on a limb here and saying that they are NOT progressive. They are “comfortable”. And, yes, sometimes a comfortable ex-liberal (neo-liberal) can be more dangerous than a neo-con. I heard their “special conventions” live in Denver—it was sad to me. Healthcare Not Warfare only seeks “incremental” changes—someday never comes.

With all due respect, KDelphi, you have displayed only that you have never looked into the PDA; don’t have a clue as to their positions on matters of substance and and make vastly erroneous assumptions about their “present” standing within the Democratic Party.  There are no members of PDA in a position of Congressional leadership and Barack Obama is not a member of the PDA.  Yet the PDA played a major roll in hammering out favorable language in the Democratic Party Platform pertaining to health care.

Your assumptions about PDA’s position on health care reflect that you don’t have a clue.  PDA has been a consistent advocate of a single-payer system and supports efforts at both the federal and state level to achieve it.  It is anti-imperial, anti-military-industrial complex.

I am not certain what you are comparing “incremental change” to, but if you have in mind either violent revolution as a means to effectuate drastic, sudden change, you can count me out.  Likewise, ineffective, divisive third party campaigns that only serve to fracture the Left leave me flat.

If you actually took the time looking into PDA, perhaps coming to a meeting where you live, you would find that it is real democracy, from the bottom up, yet within the existing two-party structure. 

There is not a dime’s worth of difference in the substantive positions of PDA and either Nader or the Greens.  The difference is in tactics—with the Greens and other third party advocates insistent on being nothing more than perpetual whiners and losers—history’s footnotes.  The PDA strives to make history from within.

Report this

By Joeseph Schmoltz, November 7, 2008 at 7:07 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

By Inherit The Hot air:

“have never understood how folks like you who LIVED THROUGH the Nixon years, the Carter years, the Reagan/Bush41 years, the Clinton years and now the Dubya years are totally unable to see any difference simply because none of them are your new-age Marxists”

I am far from a Marxist, BUT Citizen Paine has a point. I have seen 10 Presidents come and go, and From Harry Truman (campaigned against Taft Hartley and used it 19 times) To the most recent Bush I don’t see much difference in the things which count for me. 

They all have no trouble taking sons (and now daughters) for their misbegotten foreign adventures.

Corporate entities get first service over the working stiffs who consume, fight, and build for the corporations.

The choice between a unnecessary war, and a repaired road always is decided in favor of the war.

When corporate entities gamble on a bad bet, they get “help” (from the taxpayers) to recover. When a guy (or Gal) loses their job through no fault of their own, they can (after two weeks of unempolyment) apply for “unemployment insurance” (assuming their company is located on shore, and has been paying into the fund) even then the “benefit” lasts only 26 weeks and is only at maximum, 80% of former pay.  States determine the maximum benefit but the top weekly check (paid in New York) is about four hundred dollars. they pay to a maximum of half your earnings for the last 12 months. You (in most states) must have been continuously employeed for eighteen months before your most recent claim, and If you have collected Unemployment within the last two years, the new claim will be on the average INCLUDING your 80% unemployment earnings.

pretty niggardly when considering the 86Billion (and still counting) bailout of AIG (which both McCain and Obama supported.)

I was happy when Johnson signed the civil rights act (but it didn’t effect my paycheck) and I enjoyed watching astronuts step foot on the moom (but it didn’t change my life.) Johnson lied about Tonkin Reagan lied about funding Contras, Carter and Ford helped Suharto murder 250,000 in East Timor,Bush 46 pushed us into Somolia and Iraq, Clinton abolished welfare (as we knew it) and got us involved in Serbia, Kosovo, and helped kill 100,000 children in Iraq. and Bush’s record is fresh in everyone’s mind.

But through all this, the average joe (who is not a plummer) has a earning potential somewhat diminished from the 1960’s (when adjusted for inflation and measured in 1967 dollars)

So I guess Tom Paine is right. there’s not much difference for a person trying to raise a family, pay his mortgage, and be a good citizen.

Personally, I just want my share of this country’s wealth… that’s not Marxism UNLESS you happen to be the Hunt Brothers.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, November 7, 2008 at 5:25 am Link to this comment

TP, everything you say is simply more boiler-plate from the far, far left…It all boils down to the totally unprovable paragraph near the end:

For me it does not matter if the puppets’ faces change from Nixon, Reagan, GW, or Pelosi, the bottom line is action and issues. Those who are in charge are the puppeteers, not the people. Take a look at Obama’s lacks on the issues. For example, you don’t have to know much to see that his health policy favors insurance and finance sectors. So too does his barbaric and shallow stance on education, etc. Issues, yes I have issues! LOL

I have never understood how folks like you who LIVED THROUGH the Nixon years, the Carter years, the Reagan/Bush41 years, the Clinton years and now the Dubya years are totally unable to see any difference simply because none of them are your new-age Marxists.

It’s as inane as saying there’s no difference between a 747 and a unicycle since both are nothing but transportation.

Haven’t you noticed? New-Age Marxism is so far out of touch with reality in the world that it is pretty much irrelevant.  And there’s no place in the world that it’s working.  Zimbabwe? Yeah, there’s a success story. Venezuela? Chavez is rapidly following the OLD Marxist path of shutting down any dissent. Cuba? Cuba is the closest thing to “success” of old-style Communism, but solely out of necessity due to American inane boycotting of the island.

As Bush is rapidly locking down disgusting executive orders ahead of the 60-day deadline (anything 60 days or less before 20 Jan can be negated by Obama summarily) Obama’s probably smart enough not to identify areas he needs to change—I certainly wouldn’t.

On a purely personal level, in MY household, the Bush years have been a time of retrenchment—we were doing far, FAR better during the Clinton years than we have (almost to the day) when Dumbya was inaugurated.  We’ve done fine, but not as well…and despite the propaganda, our taxes went ‘WAY up! We got no tax break from Bush’s tax cuts, but our property taxes shot up as our town had make up less state and federal revenue…you know, money Bush was pumping into Alaska for Sarah Palin’s $40 billion dollar pipeline.

So don’t tell ME there’s no difference! 

It’s there in all the international relationships Bush destroyed.

It’s there in two wars we don’t belong in—the first should have been over by the end of 2003 and the second should never have begun. 

Don’t tell the parents of the dead soldiers there’s no difference—the unnecessary empty seat at the table makes your words a lie.

Don’t tell Jose Padilla there’s no difference!

Don’t tell the vast numbers of unemployed there’s no difference—the worst quarter of jobs growth in the 8 years of Clinton was better than the BEST quarter under Dubya.

Don’t tell the 30 million African-Americans and 40 million Hispanics who’ve lived under White WASPs all their lives that America electing a Black man in a landslide isn’t a difference!

And don’t tell the retirees who almost had their Social Security accounts and pensions lost in Wall Street’s collapse (a BIG Bush initiative that failed) that there’s no difference! These people aren’t homeless but they sure would be, TODAY, if Bush had gotten his way.

But, in the end, you won’t read a word I say. It’s like being a fanatical believer in a religious cult.  NOTHING of reality, NO fact matters because you already know “The Truth”....

Report this

By Tom Paine, November 6, 2008 at 11:23 pm Link to this comment

Wind, you called me an anti-Semite because I criticized the new White House Chief of Staff because he IS a Zionist. Then when I educated you that not all Semites are Zionists, you retorted: “So now the desire of a people to create a haven and a nation for themselves is a “mental disorder”????”

You might look up the definition of a Zionist. Having both my parents Jewish and growing up in A Jewish family in the inner city of Chicago, I personally know many Zionists.

Rather the new Chief of Staff IS a Zionist. That’s not calling him a Jew, because Jew is not a bad name where I come from. Then you could call me a self hating Jew, but I do not hate myself but I do have isues with my motehr LOL. You could call me anything you want, since you just about already did. Maybe that makes you an anti-Semite LOL Knowledge is powerful! Don’t cheat yourself.

You used Nazis Germany as an example awhile back, as if WWII were a rational matter of economics. Those who were there do not tell that story of a fascist take over that was “rational”; that was based solely on the economy. Rather it was very irrational (and self destructive) although one can understand the pathology of the irrationality where the economic depression ripened psychological characteristics which were produced authoritarian reactionary politics to take hold. Erich Fromm, the German Jewish Jew who fled Germany in 1933 has written about this many times. Similarly, Hans Gerth in his book with C. Wright Mills, “Character and Social Structure” deals with this same phenomena. Hans Gerth was one of my professors and he was brilliant. He saw Germany go down and that disturbed him. The fact that Americans have succumbed to being dumbed down about economics, ecology, psychology, history, political science, sociology,and “life” in general. That has certainly served their masters well and speaks to the present dysfunctional political situation. 

It was not only the Nazis party who used propaganda to manipulate emotions in order to gain power. This is indisputable. Their final solution was dependent upon a strong confident authoritarian leader, increases in centralization of authority, the stripping away of civil liberties, a secret government, imprisonment without trials), and an external enemy (a scapegoat like Afghanistan or Bin Laden). Germans didn’t just trust Hitler, rather they exalted him (Jews, gypsies, and intellectuals excepted). Karl Rove understood this. So does Madison Avenue. If the “new” Democrat voters do not understand the psychological parallels between Nazis Germany and American centralization of power, then it’s too bad for the democrats. TV has driven the spin doctors to new heights. GW gave the democrats victory this year. 

During the GW administration all astute observers have witnessed an unprecedented power grab in the centralization of power to the executive branch in the name of “terrorism”. Pelosi and Obama have said nothing to dismantle or challenge that. It seems obvious that they will do nothing to dismantle it either. What is obvious to me, is not obvious to the democratic voter. Today it is futile to separate psychological persuasion and manipulation from politics. That is not an elitist statement, rather it is known by native peoples, the rank and file, and barrio residents as we have to deal with it everyday. 

For me it does not matter if the puppets’ faces change from Nixon, Reagan, GW, or Pelosi, the bottom line is action and issues. Those who are in charge are the puppeteers, not the people. Take a look at Obama’s lacks on the issues. For example, you don’t have to know much to see that his health policy favors insurance and finance sectors. So too does his barbaric and shallow stance on education, etc. Issues, yes I have issues! LOL

“Mama’s in the fact’ry
She ain’t got no shoes
Daddy’s in the alley
He’s lookin’ for the fuse
I’m in the streets
With the tombstone blues” 

Bob Dylan


Report this

By Inherit The Wind, November 6, 2008 at 9:47 pm Link to this comment

Tom Paine, November 6 at 10:19 am #


You are amused by witnessing other people whine (you said it, not I). Sadistic personality disorder (enjoying watching other people suffer) is a DSM-III personality disorder. Really, you might learn something here

I suggested that you have fun! LOL

Yeah, let’s get rid of mental health expertise now that we got Wikipedia!  When you have a PhD in Clinical Psychology you can diagnose me.  And when you do, you’ll know damn well only a quack would try to diagnose a poster from his posts.

Can you sound like a duck, Dr. Quack?


Inherit said:  “Maybe you and some of the other anti-semites can join up and have a pity party.”

Your ignorance and intolerance is showing again. This is perfect. When some one accuses Israel of heinous crimes, or that Zionism is a mental disorder, their supporters go into denial by labeling them anti-Semitic.

So now the desire of a people to create a haven and a nation for themselves is a “mental disorder”????
That must mean that all the Palestinians who want a haven and a nation for themselves must also have a “mental disorder”??? I’ll bet you can’t be intellectually consistent and accept that logical. Of course not—you’re a hypocrite.

The facts are that the overwhelming number of American Jews are against Israel’s Zionist policies in the Middle East. Either you are ignorant of that, or are just fanning the flames.

No, they are against the most extreme policies endorsed by the extreme Right Wing—the Likud.  As am I.  But, like ALL the Jew-haters hiding behind the code word “Zionism” you don’t differ between the vast majority of Israelis who want the war to end and the Palestinians to get a fair share, from the 10% who are fanatics and deserve contempt.

Imagine taking the 30% of Americans who are fanatical about Bush insanity and painting ALL Americans unfairly with that same brush.  That wouldn’t be fair, would it?  Oh…I forgot—you do that too.

You can take that denial even further and interpolate that whoever is against Barack Obama is racially prejudiced. His corporate handlers depended upon that, but that’s just as ridiculous as your reactionary statement about criticism of the new White House Chief of Staff.
No, but I am willing to identify people who use Barack Obama’s race as a be-all and end-all identifier and, for example,  call him an “Uncle Tom” as racist.  Yeah.  I’m good with that.

So do you care about any issues or just about making yourself feel superior and dominant to others by attempting to bash them around or intimidate them?

Don’t let me stop you.

Rats! And all my attempts to intimidate you didn’t work!  Guess I’ll have to get the bent-nose guys to “make him an offer he can’t refuse!”  Lemme see,....where’s the number for Marvin the Torch and Kruger the Krippler?????? Dang! I musta tossed out the matchbook I wrote it on!

You know, you GOTTA lay off all that pop psychology stuff.  It’s just enabling your rampant cognitive dissonance.

Report this

By Jack Ronan, November 6, 2008 at 8:59 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

As a Consumer Advocate from 50(?) years ago, Ralph Nader continues his work on behalf of all of us who have been quashed by corporate America, by the powers that indeed run this country.  He deserves a Left Medal of Honor for all the injustices he has righted, for speaking out when no one else would, and for being a voice who says that we must all stand up to tyranny and the Fear that so many people fear.  I have heard him speak a number of times and am always amazed at his articulate sense, his ability to reason to out the Truth.  He absolutely embodies freedom in every sense of the word.
Some day Ralph will get his due.  I take my hat off to a real American hero.  Thank you, Ralph Nader.

Report this

By Folktruther, November 6, 2008 at 8:39 pm Link to this comment

The political function of Progressive Dems of America, Cann4ing, is to recruit naive progressives to serve the interests of the ruling class.  The way Obama is doing, while pretending to serve the interests of the American population.

however, if it were possible to develop and promote an anti-imperalist agenda while members of such fake Progressives, it might be worth doing.  There was a left caucaus in the British Labor party which Orwell was a member of.  But I would guess they wouldn’t allow criticism of Dem sellouts. Like Obama.

Report this

By KDelphi, November 6, 2008 at 4:48 pm Link to this comment

Since the PDA (“Progressive Dems of Am”)runs half teh Dem Party now , I am going out on a limb here and saying that they are NOT progressive. They are “comfortable”. And, yes, sometimes a comfortable ex-liberal (neo-liberal) can be more dangerous than a neo-con. I heard their “special conventions” live in Denver—it was sad to me. Healthcare Not Warfare only seeks “incremental” changes—someday never comes.

Why? Because they promise you things. They “feel your pain”.They prevent real change from happening because they insist that what they are striving for is the best that can be done. BS.

The PDA and Divided We Fail , other similar organiation s block real single payer health care as they tout free market , insurance based plans. Just guessing now, but, I THINK taht most of them HAVE health care.The Physicians for a Natl Health Initiative says it also. Wish it wasnt true , but it is.Hey, nobody admired the SDS more than I did! But I wil not be delusional about it.

Report this

By Tom Paine, November 6, 2008 at 4:17 pm Link to this comment

If you are a democrat then I would assume that you believe in democratic principles. If your party has abandoned Democratic principles, then I would assume that you either feel abandoned, wish to change the party, or would have left it by now. The more posts that I read here on TruthDig from these new so called democrats, the more that I am convinced that they either do not understand basic democratic principles or else they are committed to undermine them.
Fundamentally in a democracy, a democrat does not play follow the leader, rather the elected officials follow the lead of the people; i.e., the elected officials are representatives and public servants. If they do not serve the people, then it is not a democracy.

Granted such depends upon the lead of the people. If the people are clueless, and have lost confidence in their ability to decide, then the democracy itself has become lost and capable of abuse (witness Vietnam, the Shah of Iran, Iraq, the prison system, disease care system… and so on. Without a clue, then they might demand a strong leader, you know, a Hitler, Mussolini, Pinochet, dictator or king. Many people here on TruthDig have said that “leadership” ability is more important than issues. I find such a conclusion rather self defeating in a democracy. To have “Democrats: say this gives me even less hope in the Democrat party (not that I am a faith based believer). First you have values, issues, and principles, and then you get organized around them. I don’t go for crooks who say, “trust me” especially when they are deeply beholden with the Wall Street crooks, the military industrial prison complex and the Zionists. Give me a blank check – “I mean a break,

cann4ing said: “If the ideologues who moan and groan about what a President Obama will or will not do for progressive America would put one tenth of their energy into meaningful activism by joining Progressive Democrats for America with its healthcare not warfare agenda that they now put into assuring us that all is dark, the negative results they predict may not come to fruition. “

Yes, exactly. Moaning and groaning about the moaners and groaners is an object lesson to be sure. I think in a Democracy, the word is the right to dissent and protest. It was guaranteed by law at one time, but I don’t hear much talk about getting those rights back from the new administration, nor from those who supported them. The puppets are different, but the puppetmasters are the same. That’s not a complaint, that’s reality. Talking truth and disclosing the media deception is one step that we can do (that is if we care about truth). I doubt that we can have justice without truth. Guess who are in line for the new FCC Commissioners. It’s not so easy when you own 90% of the corporate media to get any message of substance across to 95% of the people who get their news from the tube.

Then we have all those high paid provocateurs and front group “foundations” with their “free” services. smile Nader did his best. No one thought that it would be easy. Obviously it wasn’t enough, but it at least gave some people a choice.

You are right talk is cheap, and voting is not enough. I’d like to say that in the end people get what they deserve/work for, but that’s another lie we tell each other. If you were in Vietnam, you would know that people got a lot less than they deserved. I’m just a lazy sort of guy. I think that hasn’t changed much today except instead of Vietnam, it’s Afghanistan or Iraq or where next? Not too smart, if you ask me. I like humble people who can recognize systemic problems and come up with lasting solutions. 

Thanks for the ride Chris Hedges!


Report this

By cann4ing, November 6, 2008 at 2:06 pm Link to this comment

If the ideologues who moan and groan about what a President Obama will or will not do for progressive America would put one tenth of their energy into meaningful activism by joining Progressive Democrats for America with its healthcare not warfare agenda that they now put into assuring us that all is dark, the negative results they predict may not come to fruition.

Power is never voluntarily ceded.  You want change?  Get off your sorry, complaining a$$es and work for it!

But I suspect that guys like folktruther will have none of that.  They are only happy when they’re miserable.

Report this

By Matt, November 6, 2008 at 1:35 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Dear all least worst, more practical than thou, good ‘nuff rationalizers,

We should all prepare to be VERY disappointed with Barack Obama. He has all the power W. has. Will he reject Bush’s power grabs or embrace them? Will he prosecute Bush for war crimes or let him walk in the spirit of “unity”? I don’t think Nader had any illusions about who would win this election. However, for all he personal faults, he was still the best choice for President. Obama, for all his shiny rhetoric, has an undeniable record of standing with entrenched power and NOT the people.  Look at the record, not at the pretty, inspiring speeches and commercials. I HOPE I am wrong, but I doubt it. We shall find out won’t we? Let us see how least worst he actually will be.

Report this

By Tom Paine, November 6, 2008 at 11:19 am Link to this comment


You are amused by witnessing other people whine (you said it, not I). Sadistic personality disorder (enjoying watching other people suffer) is a DSM-III personality disorder. Really, you might learn something here

I suggested that you have fun! LOL

Inherit said:  “Maybe you and some of the other anti-semites can join up and have a pity party.”

Your ignorance and intolerance is showing again. This is perfect. When some one accuses Israel of heinous crimes, or that Zionism is a mental disorder, their supporters go into denial by labeling them anti-Semitic. The facts are that the overwhelming number of American Jews are against Israel’s Zionist policies in the Middle East. Either you are ignorant of that, or are just fanning the flames. 

You can take that denial even further and interpolate that whoever is against Barack Obama is racially prejudiced. His corporate handlers depended upon that, but that’s just as ridiculous as your reactionary statement about criticism of the new White House Chief of Staff.

So do you care about any issues or just about making yourself feel superior and dominant to others by attempting to bash them around or intimidate them?

Don’t let me stop you.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, November 6, 2008 at 5:32 am Link to this comment

Tom Paine, November 5 at 11:16 pm #

Inherit said: “Oh, the complaining and whining is MUCH more fun on the blogs at Fox Noise.” I’m happy for you, Inherit, Don’t let us stop you! Maybe you have found your niche! Enjoy!

Oh, I’m not whining and complaining over at Fox…I’m just saying those guys are more amusing at it than you!

TP reminds me of a ditty on the tombstone of the aggressive driver who refused to yield when he had the right-of-way:
“He was right, dead right as he sped along!
But he is just as dead as if he had been dead wrong…”

Maybe you and some of the other anti-semites can join up and have a pity party.

Report this

By MeHere, November 6, 2008 at 5:15 am Link to this comment

I would very much appreciate hearing from someone who knows exactly why the Greens and Nader are not together in one party.  I am a supporter of both groups.  Thanks.

And thanks to Chris Hedges for his work.  I hope he can continue to enlighten us about the serious problems this country is facing.

Report this
Outraged's avatar

By Outraged, November 6, 2008 at 12:56 am Link to this comment

Re: Tom Paine

Thank you, very eloquently expressed.  I agree.

Report this

By Tom Paine, November 6, 2008 at 12:16 am Link to this comment

Inherit said: “Oh, the complaining and whining is MUCH more fun on the blogs at Fox Noise.” I’m happy for you, Inherit, Don’t let us stop you! Maybe you have found your niche! Enjoy!

Say Ed, are you whinin about some one else whinin? LOL Self criticism is a good thing. If you don’t do it, some one else might do you the favor. Hey, this has been a long fight (many thousands of years at least). I am in it for the long haul. Have you ever thought about the fierce compassion that you get from a mama dragon when her cubs are threatened. Those dragons are pretty tough critters!

Susan, that was very excellent, astute, and moving observations. I have the same feelings. I’ve inquired for years on how five different people will witness the same event five different ways. Many people seem to be high LOL So I take it that they are in a very different head space than my own. Maybe people are taking too many meds or maybe it’s just the relief of not having to look at GW and Cheney any more?

I wonder which Madison Avenue think tank thought up Obama for the financial, legal, and corporate elite. A pretty slick package, that! It really sells big time (selling slightly better than Hillary). So are the American people being set up or are they “done in”? I guess for the Dems anything looks better than GW and Cheney. 

For all the elation and excitement there will be an equal and opposite reaction – as America is being set up for the big downer (economic and military). What will it look like with the Dems in control of congress and white house in 2012, but then again the Dems don’t usually think further than a months in advance anyway. I think the derivative and hedge fund gamblers can bet on that.

Many people (not just Nader) have been warning Americans of this for many years. It’s already starting to hit the fan. Who will be blamed now? GW/Cheney will be gone of course. Who is going to pay for it and whose children are going to suffer? This is not cynicism, rather it is realism, unless “WE” prevent it and that means taking responsibility, not follow the leader mentality. 

I see many people taking what they don’t understand and then project their self derived complicated nightmare onto “reality”. Reality doesn’t change, but one’s perception of it is altered depending. Republican marketing experts know this and take advantage of it. That’s common. One person’s “game” will not be my game (especially if I am not a gamer). Winning, losing, or competition is an option from which to opt out. The price of food, health care, war, prison systems etc., have nothing to do with my team winning and your team losing (or your vicarious identifications with such). In a democracy there has to be introduced the essential element of QUALITY. If not it comes down to seizing power expediently. If that’s the game you are thinking about, then you would of course accept or endorse a military coup (as long as it was your military of course). Think about it. Slavery comes in many shades of yellow.

Nader may seem odd to the new Dems, but also I suspect that the ideas of selfless service, integrity, honesty, altruism and dedication to values may seem odd as well. We will have to take responsibility like any citizen in a democracy if we want democracy to work (be functional).
I want to be a true believer too, but I am dysfunctional LOL. Free people primarily require a healthy skepticism in order to examine previously unexamined assumptions and beliefs, and thus hone the innate ability for critical thought. That’s a start, but a necessary one. Without that, we are simply following one ideologue or leader after another in psychological transference. Then after going through complete disillusionment, then we are able to trust our instinct and smell the roses. People who have not gone through this psychological process do not understand those who have, it’s impossible.


Report this

By Tom Paine, November 5, 2008 at 11:06 pm Link to this comment

Monte said: “We are not shopping for a policy manual, but for a leader.”

Tom says; speak for yourself, you don’t speak for me. I don’t follow leaders, but rather “watch the parking meters”.

Power mongers who don’t have a life desire control and power as a neurotic compensation. People like Nader, only want to serve others. It’s called altruism. The truth (dig it) is that he’s done so all his life and I respect that because I respect integrity.

Others may respect raw power, expediency, or competition and I expect that is what they will receive in the end. You see egos vying for power, some one else may see children being stepped on, maimed, or traumatized. FDR had a vision and programs ... eventually to do something about that. It wasn’t just empty platitudes and sound bites.

Thus it is NOT even close to compare FDR with Obama. The man has surrounded himself with Zionists, militarists, Wall Street swindlers,, murderers, and gross polluters to say the least. If that’s what you call “change” you can have it double. Mind you I’m not complaining nor trying to change your smug cynicism, because I am certain that you will not change (change is just an expedient mantra for you).  I’m just telling you the truth; i.e., obvious facts, but you will find them unpleasant and imagine that I am complaining. Hey slaves complain. Free and awakened men do not complain, but they do have capable and intact noses and are not afraid to tell the truth.

You may not be here yet, but for most people who respect veracity, integrity, and compassion as a way of life, it matters not if our public servant is named Nader, FDR, McKinney, or Gonzales. It does not matter what kind of back room deals that they are capable of making or how much money is financing them. What matters to us is that they are dedicated and sincere. Since that doesn’t seem to win elections in America today, doesn’t make the fight any less fierce or meaningful. My only suggestion is to give your vote to those who will best uphold and serve your own personal values. many people here may equate that with idealism, but I take cynicism as dysfunctional and counterproductive, especially when you don’t really believe in, who you try to convince others that you believe. Yeah, you might have to read that again.

Now will someone tell me why we are sending young Americans to Afghanistan to die, I do want to know. Why is Obama so keen on that, and why are you supporting that? I could go over issue by issue and compare Obama with FDR or Nader or Barr. There is a large and clear difference of course. 


Report this

By Inherit The Wind, November 5, 2008 at 9:41 pm Link to this comment

SusanSunflower, November 5 at 5:55 pm #

I’ve found a lot to be alarmed about today ...

The “beatification” of Obama by the press and supporters ... statements that he has “redeemed” the American dream, that if you work really hard you can do it, become president, I guess. (as if, we can all give a deep sign of relief and go back to watching reality TV and shopping, please.)

Oh, and the stock market fell and DLC’ER Rham Emmanuel has accepted his offer of “Chief of Staff” ..

The significance of the rise of ‘National Socialism’ in Germany following their crushing, economically devastating and nationally humiliating defeat in WWI has never seemed more frightening.

Try studying history.  The NSDAP (Hitler’s nazi party) NEVER achieved a majority status. It never even reached a 35% plurality. In fact, support for the NSDAP was falling OFF and they got less votes than they had at their peak when President Paul von Hindenburg highly reluctantly asked Hitler to become Chancellor and form a new government.

OTOH, at pretty much the same time FDR was greeted equally as a savior-leader to the USA. Very much like the reactions to Obama.

I see more parallels to FDR than to the NSDAP.  In fact, other than the few minutes of worship, I see NO parallel to the NSDAP.  But go to Fox and read ANY of their forums and you’ll see the 21st century version of nazis.

Report this

By problemsolver, November 5, 2008 at 8:37 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I see that several comments in this thread suggest a 3rd, progressive, party.  Of course Nader running with or without a party, is still a 3rd party as far as the election is concerned.  As noted by me and several other commenters, in the present election system in the States, this can enable “conservatives” (to me these are usually right-wing radicals), to get elected with a plurality of the votes even though the combination of more progressive parties is in the majority.  Such a situation occurred in the last two Canadian elections where the Conservatives won the election although several more-progressive parties collectively outpolled them (resulting in what Canadians call a “minority” government) and we all probably know of cases where this has happened in key Senate races (as in Minnesota, for example).
There are, however, much better ways to have elections.
I think the best methods are runoff elections, either successively (and thus fairly expensively), as in France, or simultaneously, by ranking the candidates on a single ballot (in other words, entering a number instead of an X).  In this system, at the end of the first round the candidate with the fewest first votes is eliminated and the ballots that had that individual first are then examined for 2nd choices; those ballots are then allocated to the remaining candidates.  The process continues until a majority is achieved by a candidate.  This provides for broad representation, at least at some level, and is possibly the fairest of all the voting methods by making sure that every voter’s preferencs is taken into account at some level. 
This and other methods are mentioned in the November-December issue of the “American Scientist” magazine in a review by Steven Hill of a new book on the subject [“Gaming the Vote: Why Elections Aren’t Fair (and What We Can Do About It)” by William Poundstone].  Incidentally, in the review there is a great cartoon of Nader sitting at his desk while behind him, standing outside a closed window, is an elephant in a suit and tie shouting “Run, Ralph, run.”  The caption reads “Can you hear that?  The public is clamoring for me.”

Report this

By Jake Drew, November 5, 2008 at 8:37 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I agree with the article.  We have always done horrendous things in this world, but the last eight years have been incredibly tragic. 

I’ll appreciate Obama as a president if he holds the Bush Administration accountable for their war crimes.

Report this

By KDelphi, November 5, 2008 at 7:15 pm Link to this comment

WARNING! Do not take up my suggestion to go to neo-cons sites and see them sqiurm—some are not. Be careful where you go.

There is one forum—I dont believe in censorhsip—but you should be able to disable or ignore—

you cant do it at this one site. Someone posted the most vile, horrible pics I have ever seen in my life. My friends, who has been in war, says that they look like classified war pics-some from a police blotter, probably. I wont even describe them—

How can anyone HATE someone they dont know so much?s I am just off this for tonight. I cant worhsip at teh Obama alter—but good god—some of these people are so sick…i havent cried over pics in years.

Dont cal me a woos—you didnt see them. Gawd I wish there was a god to get these people.

Report this

By SusanSunflower, November 5, 2008 at 6:55 pm Link to this comment

I’ve found a lot to be alarmed about today ...

The “beatification” of Obama by the press and supporters ... statements that he has “redeemed” the American dream, that if you work really hard you can do it, become president, I guess. (as if, we can all give a deep sign of relief and go back to watching reality TV and shopping, please.)

I find too many “liberals” and/or “progressives” still insisting on the “he had to do it to get elected” dodge, even when it’s not applicable—they ARE NOT INTERESTED in all of the genuine issues—in Obama they trust—and trust—and trust—apparently.

Oh, and the stock market fell and DLC’ER Rham Emmanuel has accepted his offer of “Chief of Staff” ..

The significance of the rise of ‘National Socialism’ in Germany following their crushing, economically devastating and nationally humiliating defeat in WWI has never seemed more frightening.

Maybe some Obama followers will genuinely work to “hold his feet to the fire” but most will rationalize ... much as John F. Kennedy, who was much hated by various factions in his lifetime, became the symbol of all that was great about America, after his assasination (I NEVER understood that one, and I lived through it and was baffled at the time).

It’s going to be a bumpy ride. Yes, I’ve heard repeatedly that it will be good for America to have children in the White House ...

The degree of American exceptionalism and reckless “American” optimism on display today—as our stock market continues to decline by 480 at closing—is truly awe-inspiring and rather terrifying to me.

We’ll be back teaching the world about democracy and free elections and civil rights any day now ...

I did cry when I realized the election had not, would not be stolen ... and yes, fwiw, it’s probably very encouraging to vast segments of our population to have a “person of color” regardless of his other qualification at the helm ... though MLK’s line about “judges not by the color of his skin but by content of his character” revolves in my brain.

Report this

By KDelphi, November 5, 2008 at 6:53 pm Link to this comment

IRW—Maybe I wil try to do that. Unless i get “banned”.

Listening to neo-cons is about the only thing that reminds me how much worse things could be.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, November 5, 2008 at 6:47 pm Link to this comment

Oh, the complaining and whining is MUCH more fun on the blogs at Fox Noise.  There they call down the wrath of God on Democrats and “Pray God will make this a Christian country again after we’ve done our penance!”
And less funny: “That n****r will never by MY president”

Yeah, Fox’s blogger sound like they belong on a white supremacist site or Falwell/Robertson site.

Much better at complaining than the Naderites. 

See y’all again in 3 years, when Ralph dusts off his ill-fitting frayed suit and highlights the bags under his eyes to lecture at us, yet again…...

Report this

By Monte Asbury, November 5, 2008 at 6:26 pm Link to this comment

Yes, Nader was right on all the issues. But did he build consensus, did he lead America to address them, did he rally the nation to his cause?

Hardly.  We are not shopping for a policy manual, but for a leader.  Nader has not been one in recent years. Issues are only one part of what we need.

Report this

By alterid, November 5, 2008 at 5:45 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

submitted for consideration re a very current issue:

Text below video window further edifies

Report this

By cyrena, November 5, 2008 at 4:29 pm Link to this comment


I’m all for the truth. I also explained exactly where the piece came from…an email from a friend. I get things like that ALL of the time, (and I’m pretty sure the majority of people reading and/or posting here probably do as well - I know a lot of people) so it is what it is. I didn’t offer it for any other reason than that I thought it was nice, and I have hope that many people feel the same sentiments expressed in that message.

I’m even more convinced after yesterday, when Americans proved it.

I’m sorry you’re such a miserable soul Fenwick. Life is difficult, and hard, and not fair. I do whatever I can to make something/anything tiny bit better, IF I can. Because, I know that’s the only way we’re gonna survive. Is if we all just do whatever thing we might be able to do.

That’s not to say that YOU have to. You’re survive anyway, from the efforts of the rest of us.

It is what it is. So, lay down your load Fenwick. Hate is heavy. Choose something lighter to carry, and you’ll get farther.

Report this
JimBob's avatar

By JimBob, November 5, 2008 at 3:56 pm Link to this comment

“Mr McCain gave one of the most gracious concession speeches…”

Yes, the canned part of the speech, what he read off the teleprompter, was gracious.  But his one opportunity to actually BE gracious without prompting came when people in his audience were crass enough to “boo!” the winning side.  That was McCain’s chance to say something generous and grown-up, but he didn’t.  All the reading-off-the-card graciousness in the world doesn’t make up for that, IMO.

Report this

By Eric Koenig, November 5, 2008 at 3:32 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Nadar has proven to be a foul, pathetic little man in this campaign.  What a dark end to a admirable career.  He has lost his credit. If he truly cares about the issues he espouses, he needs to fade away, and make room for someone younger, wiser and more inspiring.

Report this

By ru, November 5, 2008 at 2:48 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

So Nader-ites, I understand your desire to see a third party, but here are my issues and questions about your support of Nader:

First Issue- Presidency isn’t about rule by decree. It provides the setting of an agenda for legislators. Legislation requires a functional majority in the house and senate. So, for all the good ideas Nader has,

1. How realistic is it that there will ever be support in the house and senate for a Naderite agenda?
2. Exactly what is going to happen in the interim, while you build up to a bona fide third party? Given that much of the support for Nader would come from liberal democrats, and that this would mean a weakened democratic party, are you arguing for a couple of decades of republican dominance of both houses, just to create a third party?
3. Nader won’t be around for 2 or 3 decades
4. Think of the cultural change that prolonged conservative rule will cause. There may not be the environment for a third party at the end of it.

Second Issue
- Why doesn’t Nader run for Congress? Like Kucinich.
1. Is this a case of political narcissism?
2. Or just contempt for the system of government. See above note about the presidency not being about rule by decree.

So to conclude, how do you get to a third party with a plan that is also politically pragmatic, and realistic?

Report this
Virginia777's avatar

By Virginia777, November 5, 2008 at 2:26 pm Link to this comment

Nothing better illustrates why Nadar should NOT be president than his petty comment below.

Its one thing to be a thorn in the side of Power. Its another to not recognize it when the advantage swings* to the (true) progressives of this country.

* now, as other comments have pointed out, is the time to work like crazy to use this advantage to set things right!!

(wake up, Mr. Nadar!)

Report this

By mill, November 5, 2008 at 2:14 pm Link to this comment

Fenwich re citation from clxgid

I’m not concerned about who originally wrote the piece offered by Cyrena, from an email by Kentucky Scott

regardless of who penned it, i still applaud the sentiment

Mr McCain gave one of the most gracious concession speeches - a throwback to his pre-2000 soul.  Glad there’s still some of that left in the senior senator from Arizona.

Report this

By Thelma, November 5, 2008 at 1:29 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I am glad I found this website as I was getting pretty lonely in not being able to converse with anyone about anything or read anything of substance. Having recently returned from a year long trip in the rest of the Americas, returning to “THE REAL AMERICA?” left me with much culture shock and my first thought was to leave again and for good this time. I don’t know if America has hope in continuing to be the “greatest nation on Earth” (whatever that means) when I meet all these Americans who are so vulgarly ignorant and who unfortunately make the majority of voters and consequently elected officials. People who think America is great, recall the past of the country this once was or invent a fairy tale of what the country will be. Hardly anyone speaks of the present America, of the shockingly inhuman and selfish culture that rules here and pretends to rule the world.

People ridicule people like Nader perhaps because in truth they envy and hate him because he just may be someone whose thoughts, feelings, words and actions may be in harmony?  Those who dismiss people who represent truth in all facets of life as egomaniacs and crazy ideaologists, would you say this of your own savior, if you have one? If you are a Christian, would you say this of your Jesus for preaching love, compassion, and justice to all? Change will not come to America until we each become change ourselves, but because we still know not what we do, we will thrust ourselves with tears of hope and follow the new blind man.

Report this
Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, November 5, 2008 at 12:14 pm Link to this comment


cann4ing: ‘… true change comes from the bottom up.’

Anarcissie: ‘In that case, why do you suggest continuing to treat the presidency as a monarchy?’

cann4ing: ‘Show me when and where I have advocated treating “the presidency as a monarchy.” ....’

‘[T]he time has come for progressives to unite “within” the Democratic Party by joining Progressive Democrats of America….’  In other words, we should all join the royal retinue.  Or one of them—no doubt other people are being told they should join the Conservative Democrats of America.

The Democrats are doing fine.  Seems to me what we need are some people outside the Democratic Party to kick it when it needs kicking, which is a lot of the time.  Right now the Democratic Congress seems to need a lot of kicking to inspire it to stop Bush from doing any more damage, as he seems to plan.  ¡No pasarán!

Report this

By AS, November 5, 2008 at 10:35 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I agree with just about everything that Mr. Hedges wrote in this column; I also believe that I am not “practical” enough, and that I always “stand up against injustice!” Yet, for better or worse, this time, I did vote for Senator Obama!
In my humble opinion, not doing so, under the presently prevailing circumstances, would have amounted to deliberately choosing to “remain silent,” while another grossly incompetent Administration, inundated by an army of neo-cons, was being installed into the White House! Could this country, and the world,  survive another EIGHT YEARS of McBush’s way of governing?

Report this

By cann4ing, November 5, 2008 at 9:53 am Link to this comment

By Anarcissie, November 5 at 8:26 am #

  cann4ing: ‘… true change comes from the bottom up.’

In that case, why do you suggest continuing to treat the presidency as a monarchy?

Show me when and where I have advocated treating “the presidency as a monarchy.”  I have consistently argued that an Obama presidency was critical to staving off the appointment of another Federalist Society radical in robes to the Supreme Court precisely because Federalist Society jurists all subscribe to “Unitary Executive theory”—a doctrine that is not merely radical but subversive to the constitution and the rule of law as it would destroy checks and balances and extend to an American president unchecked and unlimited powers that would be greater than those that the British monarch had at the time of the American Revolution.

And I have consistently argued that the election of Barack Obama, while essential to heading off the final descent into a fascist America, should never be seen as an end in itself—that the only practical means for insuring a progressive America is for progressives to come together through the vehicle of Progressive Democrats of America to effectuate fundamental change within the party now clearly in power—as opposed to a continued exercise in futility reflected by a non-viable third party movement which only serves to fracture the American Left.

Report this
JimBob's avatar

By JimBob, November 5, 2008 at 9:51 am Link to this comment

Much of what Hedges says is true, and we’d all be better off if we considered ourselves World citizens before draping ourselves in the Stars and Stripes.  But Nader?  What a feeble hook to hang an article about moral outrage on!  Nader hasn’t got what it takes to be an elected official, so why does anyone keep talking about him in this context?  My Grannie is as moral a person as Nader, very up-to-date on what’s going on in the world, and has some damn good ideas about how to make it a better place.  That doesn’t mean she should be president.  Come on, Hedges, if we can’t mix the practical and the moral and come up with something that actually works, we’re just flapping our tongues.

Report this

By mill, November 5, 2008 at 9:43 am Link to this comment

Thank you to Cyrena, for passing along that thoughtful inspirational piece by Kentucky Scott

Report this

By clxgid, November 5, 2008 at 9:41 am Link to this comment

thanks for summing it up so eloquently and precisely , although I count myself among the “realists” , I will read this regularly to remind myself what the real goals are , and what might be lost by compromise and by things being compromised .

Report this
Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, November 5, 2008 at 9:26 am Link to this comment

cann4ing: ’... true change comes from the bottom up.’

In that case, why do you suggest continuing to treat the presidency as a monarchy?

Report this

By cann4ing, November 5, 2008 at 9:08 am Link to this comment

Fenwick, there was much in your last post I admired—that is until you turned cynical and “I really don’t think he has a clue about what to do and how to do it.  He has to stay on the leash of his Wall St. supporters and that means that the 300 million Americans are still consumers” and “everyone can celebrate, then go back to sleep, we’ll take care of everything.”

Many in the progressive community, like Norman Solomon and Jim Hightower, understood all along that the election of Barack Obama (and staving off of the final descent into fascism that would have accompanied a McCain/Palin administration) was but a critical first step—not an end in itself.  Now that the election has made certain that which should have been obvious all along—that there will be no third party component to the next government—the time has come for progressives to unite “within” the Democratic Party by joining Progressive Democrats of America, by actively seeking from a newly elected Democratic Congress truly progressive measures, like single-payer health care and cut backs on wasteful expenditures for the military-industrial complex.

I did not hear in Obama’s words anything remotely suggesting a desire that we all go back to sleep.  To the contrary, Obama has repeatedly stressed that power never concedes; that true change comes from the bottom up.

Democracy is not a spectator sport.

Report this

By voice2, November 5, 2008 at 8:54 am Link to this comment

Thank you Chris Hedges from the bottom of my heart for what you have written. I voted for Ralph Nader because I think we need to be moral every step of the way. The notion that one first has to jump through the hoops is degrading, slavish and stupid. It is hypocrisy to know about the workings of this principle and yet to accept it. Forsaking what one truly believes in for practical reasons cannot bring change.

Report this

By Maximus Peperkamp, November 5, 2008 at 8:14 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Thank you Chris Hedges from the bottom of my heart. Like you and Ralph Nader, I think it is important to have moral justice every step of the way. It is slavishness and stupidity which makes people think that it is practical to keep jumping through hoops.

I voted for Nader and not for Obama because to me the means are as important as the end. It is hypocrisy to know this principle and yet to ignore it. Playing the game cannot not bring change. It has always prevented change and it will continue to do so…

Report this

By nyko, November 5, 2008 at 7:28 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)








Report this

By P Robbert, November 5, 2008 at 7:10 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Now we must work together to restore what has been stolen from us and stop the last ditch effort by the Bush administration and the corporatocracy to install a police state and eviscerate what is left of our country.  We must be vigilant over these next few months until inauguration day and forever afterward.  Let’s work together to restore the constitution and bill of rights.  Let’s never go down this path again – never, ever, again!!!

See Bush’s final agenda:

See links below:

First Australia, now the EU and US Internet Censorship to follow:

Ralph Nader said millions of dollars were given to Microsoft in the Wall Street Bailout bill. See why below:

Australia, now the EU moves toward Chinese model of Internet censorship: news/eu_set_to_move.htm

Report this
thebeerdoctor's avatar

By thebeerdoctor, November 5, 2008 at 6:45 am Link to this comment

yossarian100 nails down this business about Ralph Nader. A viable third party, to be created, requires much tedious, non-glamorous work. Mr. Nader, despite his historical knowledge, let his ego get in the way. Strangely, his lack of experience in holding public office, does not bother his most fervent supporters. For some reason, many seem to forget that politics is not just about issues… there are actually people involved. Even if the noblest person is elected president, it would all be for naught, without cooperation from the legislative branch.

Report this

By anarchris, November 5, 2008 at 6:03 am Link to this comment

i have been crying over this momentous occasion, but i do fear that Obama’s policies in the middle east etc will change people’s mind about him fast.

Report this

By Allan Gurfinkle, November 5, 2008 at 5:17 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The story now is that Obama is trying to get Rahm Emmanuel as his chief of staff.  If that happens it is a signal that we are in for four more years of Zionist rule.  If that is the case, Hedges was right.

Report this

By yossarian100, November 5, 2008 at 4:36 am Link to this comment

I offer no apologies. I just couldn’t stand the thought of another Republican as President.

My only criticism of Ralph Nader is, with all his experience in organizing, why didn’t he devote himself to the establishment of a viable third party instead of wasting his time running for President? It would have been ok if the media did their job and reported on the issues and the positions of all candidates running for President but that’s not how things work here. If you’re not one of the two frontrunners, you’re completely ignored. Nader’s message is lost.

I’ve listened to every speech I could find, read every bit of writing I could come across, and I agree with Ralph Nader’s positions on almost every issue. However, I think we need a third party that promotes those issues much more than we need a Presidential Candidate who supports those issues.

Until we have a viable third party, those of us who agree with Ralph Nader and Ralph Nader himself, will simply be ignored.

With that in mind, yes, I walked away from my ideals and went practical this time. I’m not apologizing. I’m just saying.

Report this

By problemsolver, November 5, 2008 at 3:04 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Given the relatively few differences between the Democratic Party and Nader, I could never understand why Nader would not try to work within the Democratic Party to try to move progressive ideas forward. 
Then I learned that Republicans paid to put him on the ballot in several states in the past two elections to siphon off Democratic votes. 
I see also that he takes up the cause of the Palestinians and all their allies (including Hezbollah, who blew up the marine barracks in Lebanon in the 80’s) against Israel, and seems not to have noticed that al Qaida trained in Afghanistan with the blessing and support of the Taliban, the most repressive militant Muslim group in the world (with the possible exception of the Wahabis, with whom they have great affinity).  I suppose this because he seems to criticize the Afghan War, which is, at least in my view, a just war that required military action to take out al Qaida and their hosts after 9/11.  Agreed that Iraq was a Bush-Cheney neocon misadventure, but few liberals would argue to abandon the struggle in Afghanistan.  There are other items about Nader’s stance that bother me, and probably a lot of other Democrats also.
I had thought that the one foreign policy mistake made by the Clinton administration was to lead NATO in a war against Serbia over Kosovo, which had been Serbian until Albanians swarmed across the border and displaced the Serbs who lived there.  (For some reason, NATO thought that expelling the invaders was an act of ethnic cleansing, forgetting that the US did and does the same to Mexicans coming across the southern US border.)  The Bush-Cheney duo supported those actions, apparently forgetting that al Qaida got valuable training fighting alongside the Albanians against the Serbs in the late 90’s.  It seems that Nader would have followed the same policy.
His stance on Israel indicates that he thinks that the Jews in Palestine in 1948 had no legitimate to claim to the territory in which they lived, and then had no right to expand this territory when they were attacked in a war of annihilation by the Arab armies surrounding them. 
So who’s kidding whom?  Nader’s foreign policy is flawed, and as for the rest of his agenda, he has represented only a way to divide Democrats so that Republicans could achieve ill gained victories in key states.

Report this

By Getreal, November 5, 2008 at 2:18 am Link to this comment

He won’t be ‘trying’ again at 78!??

Somebody find him a decent pasture and let’s do it.

Report this

Page 1 of 4 pages  1 2 3 >  Last »

Right Top, Site wide - Care2
Right Skyscraper, Site Wide
Right Internal Skyscraper, Site wide