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Economy Trumps Race in Ohio

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Posted on Oct 15, 2008
AP photo / Rick Bowmer

Barack Obama poses with workers during a tour of the RMI Titanium Co. plant in Youngstown, Ohio.

By Bill Boyarsky

(Page 2)

Botts said, “I’m not really sure how I feel about Obama. I see him more as a president than McCain. But I’m not really sure. A lot of people are skeptical of him. Obama seems like he would be better for the United States, but I wish Hillary had stayed.”

I didn’t ask them about race. I thought it would be stupid and obvious, a journalistic hack question. They were friends, sitting around talking. What was there to ask?

After talking to them, I thought about what I had felt since I started writing about this campaign many months ago: The media, with the most well-known pundits and reporters in middle age or on the verge of it, see race through an outmoded prism. The country is changing.

Two weeks ago, I got an explanation of how it is changing from Martin Johnson, a professor at the University of California at Riverside, who conducts public opinion polls.  His campus, like the rest of California and much of the rest of America, is a multiethnic place, with Latinos, Asians, whites and African-Americans.

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People, he said, “try to put things in a white-black paradigm and you just can’t do it.”

Of course you can’t. America is too complicated. Spurred by the worst economic collapse since the 1930s, we may just put that old-fashioned paradigm behind us.


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By D Mo, October 21, 2008 at 7:57 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

KDelphi,
I hope your correct about Dayton, my experience comes mainly from the Tol. area. My understanding of the polls in Ohio is one of a dead heat.
As I recall Dayton was a little more liberal then its neighbor to the south, but none the less its has tended to support people like Taft, Voinovich.
All I was really getting at is that the northern part of the state will vote Dem.except when it comes to Obama, unless the bigots stay at home. This may happen because the national polls are showing Obama with a seemingly overwhelming lead, thus suppressing turnout in that population.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 21, 2008 at 4:42 am Link to this comment

KDelphi, October 19 at 8:26 am #

ITW—I hope you realize that, by “cool” family—I was not being sarcastic. I just dont have any kids and cannot afford any. I wish I could.

I agree that, in everyday situations, race and color matter not at all.
I would think that your family was cool if they were all white, black or brown.

I just have lost most of my family and no one in my family (cousins included) has kids.

It was an abusive situation.

It is a hard pill to swallow—I just had to consider that, I MIGHT do to a child, what my mom did to me and her grandmother before. After getting older and seeing alot of “not so good” parents, I sometimes wonder if that was valid.

But, in any case, I could never afford it now, and, 8 cousins cant al be wrong—not a single kid among us. A couple had physical problems that wouldve made it difficult—most dont. Just afraid.

It will make for a lonely old age, I’m afriad. But, my “friend” has a daughter I love very much. But she is gay , and not likely to adopt!! LOL!! I’ll just have to find some kids to hang around with.LOL
****************************

K,
I didn’t think you were being sarcastic. I just don’t view myself as a societal role model. I’m not “making a statement” by adopting, I am just filling out our family (and, in her 40’s, my wife didn’t want to risk another pregnancy). It’s what economists call Pareto Optimal: Good for the adopters and the adoptee.

I’m very sorry for you but I think your choice was a responsible and admirable one. Even heroic. You didn’t know so you wouldn’t chance damaging another life.  My mother had that choice. 

Mom’s mother was horribly abusive and her grandmother before.  Luckily, Mom had only sons. She wanted a daughter but in later years realized that, with a daughter, she might well have devolved into patterns her mother and grandmother laid down, abusive ones.  Even so, Mom was quite the dictator, never wrong, never able to say she was sorry.  Luckily, she’s also highly introspective and went and got therapy and grew past that, though one never fully escapes it. Plus, she had Dad, who was like a rock and had no tolerance for abusive behavior, and the strength to abort it.  And she listened to him. For her, there’s no denying her mistakes, no avoiding them, which is why, now in her old age, all her sons love her and look out for her.  Her grandchildren adore her too.

But Mom was very, very lucky.  She had love—a weak but doting father, then a very strong, supportive—and doting—husband.  Yet the risks you fear were always there, and real.  Dad knew it, and Mom knew it.

I wish I had advice and wise words for you to ease the loneliness.  All I can say is I admire your decision, and the strength it takes to live with it.

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By KDelphi, October 20, 2008 at 10:46 pm Link to this comment

D Mo—I do not think you are being fair. Dayton is Not “rural” , nor completely segregated. Some of us actually strive to live in integrated neighborhoods. Obama is ahead in Ohio, and walked away with Dayton in the priamry.

Sure, we have Kentucky overflow.The ones I know are voting for Obama.

Speaking of segreagation—I have spent alot of time in Cleveland. (at Clevland Clinic, but,also in the Flats and the areas around the clinic)_ It is at LEAST as segregated as Dayton—I think , more so.

I dont know how well you know the area of Montgomery County, but Trotwood, Yellow Springs and North Dayton come to mind. My neighborhood is integrated, or it was, when we had enough full houses! It is getting pretty empty. The Mayor is Rhine McLin—an Af. Am. woman. (Daughter of CJ McLin) My state rep. is Luckie—an Af. Am. man. The city is about 70% Af. Am. or Latino.

It is not a “good” place to live, but none of OHio is, unless you have alot of money. Taft and Co. fleeced the poor and middle classes.We are still trying to recover. I rather fear what Ohio might be willing to do to try to get back all those manufacturing jobs, which are NEVER coming back. Ohio is filthy. But, at least Taft is gone. And Blackwell.

Lets hope that the Cuyahoga River doesnt catch fire again.

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By D Mo, October 20, 2008 at 7:43 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Having grown-up and lived in Ohio most of my adult life, I’m well into my 60’s , I’m here to tell you that this state is a model of segregation both black and white.
If one likes to view the numbers, you will see the southern portion, Dayton and parts south are merely an extension of Kentucky.a great deal of Ohio is agricultural & these rural areas are mostly white, and very republican. Then we move to the northern parts of the state ,from; Toledo to Cleveland. These sections are very democratic with union membership still strong, and most Dems running for office will do quit well in these areas. With one exception,that being for President.
This part of Ohio will tell the whole country a lot about where this country stands in regards to race relations. In this northern portion where most of the African American population lives, they will most certainly support Obama ,as well as the educated intellectual classes. There is a significant number of blue collar and ethnic whites that would never vote for a black for office. This is the group that will give Ohio to the Repugs. Remember “Joe the plummer” comes from this area.
There you have it, it will take an act of God to move Ohio to the Obama coll-um.

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By KDelphi, October 19, 2008 at 9:26 am Link to this comment

ITW—I hope you realize that, by “cool” family—I was not being sarcastic. I just dont have any kids and cannot afford any. I wish I could.

I agree that, in everyday situations, race and color matter not at all.
I would think that your family was cool if they were all white, black or brown.

I just have lost most of my family and no one in my family (cousins included) has kids.

It was an abusive situation.

It is a hard pill to swallow—I just had to consider that, I MIGHT do to a child, what my mom did to me and her grandmother before. After getting older and seeing alot of “not so good” parents, I sometimes wonder if that was valid.

But, in any case, I could never afford it now, and, 8 cousins cant al be wrong—not a single kid among us. A couple had physical problems that wouldve made it difficult—most dont. Just afraid.

It will make for a lonely old age, I’m afriad. But, my “friend” has a daughter I love very much. But she is gay , and not likely to adopt!! LOL!! I’ll just have to find some kids to hang around with.LOL

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By Inherit The Wind, October 18, 2008 at 4:46 pm Link to this comment

I hope that you will take my point in the spirit in which it is intended. I am merely striving to be honset, since, the topic is/was race and politics.

And, congrats on having what sounds like a “cool” family. Iwish I had one.
***********************************

I just wanted to clarify how I see things. I didn’t mean you were racist or that I’m some kind of hero. 

All I was trying to say was that at home, each kid has his place in the household just like they do (or should) in every family.  Color is meaningless, just as who’s adopted and who’s home-cooked is meaningless.  Who spilled the milk or ate the last cookie or left the bathroom with no toilet paper is what is relevant. Or who wants to toss a football or go in the pool or who’s bedtime is it?

I don’t know that I have a “cool” family, but I certainly have a nice one, and it’s mine. Other than the novelty of the adoption it’s I think, a pretty ordinary family. Meanwhile, as I write this, the little guy is watching the “Toy Story” DVD while wearing a Buzz Lightyear costume warming up for Halloween!

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By KDelphi, October 18, 2008 at 11:04 am Link to this comment

Inherit—I never said that race should be/is the measure of a politician, or any other progfession , for that matter. I find the idea that it would be offensive, on its face.

I see what you are saying, and, with your experiences, I am sure that you are sincere and it applies.. I just know people that say “i just dont see it” as a form of trying to be self righteous. I didnt mean you, I was kindve joking about it. I guess with US history, it is not something to joke about, unless one is talking to a friend who happens to be a minority, and those friends never seem to mind,. But, we dont know each other.

It may also be true that not all minority people would see a comment or suggestion in the same way. It probably depends on their background.

Lemme try another example: The local news. “A boy of 4, with black hair and brown eyes is missing….he was wearing a ,,,”.

Then, they show a picture, and the child is Af. Am.

Why wouldnt they jsut say that?? Now, that is an extreme example, but, I just think it is silly to be so uncomfortable that a person cannot say, someone is black, brown, af. am. mayan or asian, caucasian.

Yes, I think it is mostly a matter as unimportant as hair or eye color. Plus, if everyone in the uS got their DNA checked, to see what their “racial” makeup was—they might be very surprised. I saw a college class do it once—ther was a woman who self-identified as Af Am. They checked her DNA—and she was Irish, Spanish, and—somethign else, but you get the idea. They did not FIND any afican DNA. She said that she was still “Af Am.”. Another student, who self identified as Anglo Saxon, turned out to be (DNA wise) Jewish, Irish and Italian. I know my DNA on my fathers side, because I know relatives from generations ago.. My mother’s I honestly do not.Until my sis turned up with a genetic disease, I did not care. But, we stil do not know.

I hope that you will take my point in the spirit in which it is intended. I am merely striving to be honset, since, the topic is/was race and politics.

And, congrats on having what sounds like a “cool” family. Iwish I had one.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 18, 2008 at 10:17 am Link to this comment

I used to hear people say that, and, I thought it sounded good. But, a friend of min e(white) used to say it al the time,. and, a Af.Am. friend of ours said, “What do you mean by that? You live in Ohio and dont ‘see race”? Why not?”. He kindve said that he thought that that was bogus. Maybe he meant just her. But, she is married to an Af Am.—so maybe that proves YOUR point…hmm

Maybe it is a MW thing—I dont mean that she was insincere. The city is live in is most certainly not all white. My family (what is left o fit) is not al white. But, when I see the non-white family members—I do realize that they are not white. I dont think “theyre not white”-everytime I see them.-I just do know it. That is al that I meant.

*************************

But do you see it as anything more important than hair color or eye color?

One of my sons is adopted, from Central America and he’s mostly Mayan.  In the house he’s one of my kids, at times adorable, at times mischievous, at times a total pain in the ass…just like his big brother (who was not adopted) was at that age. 
Sure, I know he’s brown, not pink, and HE knows it too. But he and his brother and mother all have brown eyes, and I’m the oddball with green eyes. He and his brother have dark hair, nearly black, Mom has red hair (this month smile smile smile ) and I have light brown hair going gray.  He likes to wear alligator shirts just like Dad, but Big Brother wouldn’t be caught dead in one. Even if he liked them “Wearing them at school marks you as a geek, Dad”.

Outside the house we act exactly the same way, but with a difference.  We are always aware that the world may look at us funny.  We act exactly as what we are: a family.  Why shouldn’t we?

One of my in-laws’ neighbors said to them “Make sure he goes to college. We have enough janitors and gardners”.  My MIL (well-known for labeling people Guineas, Schvartzers, Schikzes,etc) ripped him a new asshole “Don’t YOU talk about MY grandson that way!”  And anybody who messes with his little brother will answer to his big brother—the one with the Black Belt!  Actually, other than that one incident, nobody has ever hassled us. I guess Normalcy breeds Normalcy.

Interestingly, but not surprisingly, many Black families are much more willing to strike up conversations with us and make casual acquaintance.  When you never know if the next White face you see will have a bigot or worse, a racist behind it, a Brown child is certainly a re-assurance.  We noticed the phenomenon but had not anticipated it.

So I find the idea of color as a measure of a politician absurd.  It is simply inevitable that we we have someone other than an old White guy as president.  Even Peru had a Japanese-descent president.  Had McCain picked Condaleeza Rice as his VP, it would not have made me anymore willing to vote for him.

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By KDelphi, October 18, 2008 at 9:37 am Link to this comment

b—Dont get me started on Superfly!

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By thebeerdoctor, October 18, 2008 at 9:12 am Link to this comment

“He’s the one who won’t cop out when there’s danger all about,”

They say that cat Obama is a bad mother… hush your mouth!
I’m talking about Barack… then we can dig it.

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By KDelphi, October 18, 2008 at 8:55 am Link to this comment

You mean the private dick whose a sex machine with all the chicks?

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By cyrena, October 17, 2008 at 11:27 pm Link to this comment

By thebeerdoctor, October 17 at 1:36 am #


re: cyrena

He’s a complicated man. no one understands him but his woman…

~~~~~~

Oh beerdoctor, this time I HOWLED..smile smile

Seriously…I can’t stop laughing…or singing that stupid song. But, I bet his Mama understood him just fine too! (Obama’s, not Shaft’s)

Oh boy..there I go again. I was gonna answer KDelphi and Separad, but I need to be a little bit more serious, and I can’t stop laughing. Maybe I should have a beer. Better yet, a shot of cactus juice.

Ladies, I DO know what you mean, and I agree. I was even thinking I might not mind if everybody was the same color myself, seeing as how this shit just takes up too much time and energy. BUT, if that was the case, I think I’d prefer if we all looked like Arabs or Native Americans rather than Scandinavians, and I’d just as soon we were all Buddhists.

I’ll do more serious stuff later. I have to drink my cactus juice now.

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By KDelphi, October 17, 2008 at 4:13 pm Link to this comment

cyrena—I saw what she said about having a multi-ethnic famiy. There are not only white protestants in my family either.

I used to hear people say that, and, I thought it sounded good. But, a friend of min e(white) used to say it al the time,. and, a Af.Am. friend of ours said, “What do you mean by that? You live in Ohio and dont ‘see race”? Why not?”. He kindve said that he thought that that was bogus. Maybe he meant just her. But, she is married to an Af Am.—so maybe that proves YOUR point…hmm

Maybe it is a MW thing—I dont mean that she was insincere. The city is live in is most certainly not all white. My family (what is left o fit) is not al white. But, when I see the non-white family members—I do realize that they are not white. I dont think “theyre not white”-everytime I see them.-I just do know it. That is al that I meant.

I agree with Sepharad some, too. Maybe we are more conflicted about it than we know. I dont know that I am completley objective. I just know that I was not raised to view minorities (of any race)_ as differnt or to treat them any differently. I have had Af Am/Hispanic/Jewish friends since high school and all through work, college.

Ohio is humiliating itself again, and , maybe I try to deny it , even to myself. I just do not feel taht way personaly.

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By Sepharad, October 17, 2008 at 2:28 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

KDelphi & cyrena—Sometimes not seeing skin color is a drawback, if you forget that so many people in all colors of the rainbow act and live as if shade were a primary consideration. During early ‘60s, it surprised me that there was still a need for voter registration, but there it was.

Going back in time is not always useless (as implied by some commenters re McCain’s resurrecting Ayers, that “old washed up terrorist,” which is usually followed by Obama’s pained “I was only 8 years old!”). Race can come back and bite progressives in the backside only because we’ve never resolved it in this country (or, for that matter, anywhere abroad). So we registered voters down South and got ourselves a Voting Rights Act. Even so, from south Boston to California there’ve still been race riots and persistent bad feeling acted out violently in poorer parts and more genteely, in politically correct arenas, behind the scenes. Hell, we even fought a bloody Civil War to unite the country for railroads and business considerations using the Abolitionist cause for window dressing. Lincoln did free the slaves—three years into the war, when France and England were about to come in on the South’s side. Afterwards, the pr was that the bad South had paid dearly for the sin of slavery, and the good North was deemed free of racial prejudice, ignoring embarrassing details such as the lynchings of hundreds of black workingmen by their white counterparts in New York during the ‘64 draft riots.

If we continue being blind to our failure to recognize human beings as human beings, the poison will continue weakening us. And people at political rallies will keep yelling “Treason”, “Kill him,” until some poor deranged pawn actually tries.

Even having the same skin color doesn’t protect people anymore (just look at Arabs v. Jews, Arabs v. Arabs all over the Middle East, or black Africans v. other black Africans with same skin, different religions.) Sometimes it makes one positively wish the whole world were Scandinavian Protestants. (Not really, but you know what I mean. I hope.)

Obama’s calmness and rationalism may be dull to some, but those traits are looking pretty good right now.

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By thebeerdoctor, October 17, 2008 at 2:36 am Link to this comment

re: cyrena

He’s a complicated man. no one understands him but his woman…
Oh, sorry the VHS tape mindset is beginning to automatically rewind. But you are damn right about Obama having nothing to do with all that stuff from the 60’s and 70’s, yet McCain keeps trying to pull him back in to a time and context that he has nothing to do with (I mean why oh why, does Mr. Peabody want to force Sherman into the Way Back Machine?).
But truly, that is all team McCain has left. The smear of false innuendo is the only arrow left in their quiver. The most remarkable thing about this is how pathetic it is.

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By cyrena, October 17, 2008 at 1:53 am Link to this comment

KDelphi,

I’m not so positive that you do know what Separad actually means, because what *I* think she means, she explains right here…

“….I truly did not think race would be a factor, maybe because our own sprawling famiy is so farflung-multi-ethnic I’ve just stopped seeing skin color…”

Her own sprawling family is so far-flung-multi-ethnic.

That says it right there, at least for anyone else who has a family that is multi-ethnic. It’s a state of mind, and has everything to do with ones own environment. Personal experiences always shape our opinions to a greater or lesser degree, and the more ‘different’ places one may find themselves in, or different ‘views’ that one might have the advantage of, has a tendency to shape the things that we find remarkable or less remarkable.

My mother’s family (and large one) is from Ohio. And regardless of how long they all lived in California, (most, not all of them relocated here) they still always maintained their original way of seeing things..even in race matters, despite them being somewhat multi-ethnic themselves. I’m far more like Separad, but I haven’t always been. It’s had much to do with living so many different places, and spending time in non-US societies, and again…the spreading of the multi-ethnicities of the family.

All in all, it really IS a state of mind, and I believe that not seeing skin color is a very good thing, specifically when pre-conditioned ideas (whether we are consciously aware of them or not) prevent one from inquiring beyond the surface, based on what the surface is. That’s why the old wisdom suggests that we should never judge a book by it’s cover, and that should extend to not judging it by it’s title either.

Outraged,

On this…

•  “Obama’s position and record regarding FREE TRADE is not good.
•  ”Regarding the North American Free Trade Agreement, Obama recently boasted, “I don’t think NAFTA has been good for Americans, and I never have.” Yet, Calvin Woodward reviewed Obama’s record on NAFTA in a February 26, 2008 Associated Press article and found that comment to be misleading: “In his 2004 Senate campaign, Obama said the US should pursue more deals such as NAFTA, and argued more broadly that his opponent’s call for tariffs would spark a trade war. AP reported then that the Illinois senator had spoken of enormous benefits having accrued to his state from NAFTA, while adding that he also called for more aggressive trade protections for US workers.” ..”

You’re cherry picking again. I can find about 438 references to what Obama has said on NAFTA, and you’re quoting some other person’s OPINION on what is misleading or, based on two references that get into a real he said she said, reported by, blah, blah, blah, without mentioning any of the other 436. You’re mixing ‘arguing broadly’ (the interpreter’s term) with an “AP” report…(no name for the AP reporter…there are several hundred of them as well) and I’ve long ago learned to get beyond that, to target whatever information I need from the horse’s mouth.

Barack Obama has never denied the importance of trade, and the terms ‘free’, as opposed to ‘fair’, carry a whole lot of global trade theory and global economic theory with them. And, it’s complicated. Obama may or may not know himself, ALL of the intricacies involved with trade in a now globalized system, but he’d have enough sense to choose advisors that DO. (and I can recommend some if he doesn’t).

What he DOES know, is how NAFTA has failed us, (as much as it has failed others in the global market, at least from a worker view) and he is equally cognizant of how critical trade is to ANY economy. I’ve pointed several times to the results or pitfalls of protectionism as it has affected other countries like Uruguay. It would be worth it to check that out. But, there’s no book for Dummies on global trade and the global economy.

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By cyrena, October 17, 2008 at 1:05 am Link to this comment

re Beerdoctor

“..But alas for poor Maverick, I did not want to know him well. He wanted (no strike that, desperately needed) someone with a colourful biography who once shouted Burn Baby Burn instead of the Guys? Has somebody called the fire department?”

~~~~

Oh lordy…I laughed out loud at this beerdoc! Especially the “Burn Baby Burn!” I remember a few years back, I sent a link to an old friend, (I’m still in touch with most of me ex’s). It was some story on a car catching fire in one of GW’s motorcades. (I can’t remember all of the details now). I thought it was kind of humorous…no…I thought it was hilarious, and so I sent it to him. He responded with: “Burn Baby Burn.”

And then the part about John Shaft and Big B coming up with Jim Brown (the woman beater) as Sec of Health and Human services set me off into a fit of giggles I couldn’t stop.

All of that said, the bottom line is that most of that stuff is too old for Obama. Just not his time period. Besides that, he’s ‘square’ as nerds have a tendency to be. Even his kids say that. The girls say he’s really formal, like shaking the hands of their friends when he meets them, instead of just saying ‘hi’ like most folks would.

I don’t find him ‘cold’ at all, and in earlier debates, he’s even been kinda funny, getting in his own licks with Hillary, like when he said he wasn’t sure who he was running against, (her or bill).

But there’s a reason why they call him “No Drama Obama” and I have to admit that it’s one of the things that most impressess me with him. This is serious shit, and these are the most serious and catastrophic times this country has seen in nearly a decade. There’s nothing funny about that, and the last thing we need is somebody at the wheel who goes off half cocked, and can’t remain calm in an emergency. I agree that he may not know what to do about this economic crises any better than anybody else does, but he knows what caused it, and as someone here said, (I think the beerdoctor) he’s at least willing to look for solutions. He’s open minded, and because there is never any one person who can have all of the answers, it’s paramount that he be open minded to solutions for the type of crises than we’ve never experienced in this nation. (and yes, this IS a different type of economic crisis than the earlier ones).

I see him as earnest, yet cautious and yes, hyperpragmatic. When I was much younger, (and obviously far less mature) my dad was this way, and I swear it used to drive me nuts. The careful deliberation and all of that can be annoying to young mentalities (and impatient) mentalities. It’s like watching somebody else play chess. You’re like, Jesus Christ, will ya make a MOVE!!

However, having long ago reached ADULTHOOD, and suffered the consequences (many times) of NOT being more deliberate and thoughtful, and because we can’t miss the results of radical and insane behavior, I’ve very much come to appreciate the intellect. (I’m also very protective of my own mental health.)

So if BarackO is the polar opposite of Mohammed Ali, (remember all that shit he used to talk?...he did back it up though)it’s really quite a good thing. That’s not to say that I don’t sometimes lose patience with Obama myself, like when he has opportunites to slam that old decrepit fart McInsane and doesn’t take them, or when he doesn’t defend himself against so many of these outrageous attacks. But I also realize that in a lot of those instances, what some people interpret as ‘cool’ or ‘cold’ may in fact be simply ‘dismissive’. I know that feeling. Some things are just too outrageous and stupid to even legitimize with a response.

Still, that’s not to say that he doesn’t make me a bit nervous sometimes, but I’ve also figured out that he knows what he’s doing, even if I don’t.

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By KDelphi, October 16, 2008 at 12:15 pm Link to this comment

It may be true, about being “cool”—but I was explaining (or, trying to) that I think it makes people think that he is uncaring. I do not know if he is or not. I will not specultate, I’ve never met him.

As for 401ks, IRAs—if the govt had not diluted the social security and public pensions and de-fanged unions, who allowed gutting private pensions first, as the corps. went bankrupt , the middle and working classes never wouldve been forced into rhe roullette market. They never shoudl have been either. But, I dont believe in the free mkt.

As for those without 401, 201 or 101ks—I guess they can just go die in a ditch. A tent, if they can afford one.

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By Outraged, October 16, 2008 at 10:43 am Link to this comment

I also found this short video, propaganda at its finest is imperceptible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rPQCPwdwHQ

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By Outraged, October 16, 2008 at 10:15 am Link to this comment

Re: jackpine savage and KDelphi

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that anyone SHOULD shop at Wal-Mart, I’m just saying that many don’t always KNOW what they are doing. Take for instance the people in the article on the other thread, can you honestly tell me these people are well aware of the underlying premise of superstores.

http://www.truthdig.com/avbooth/item/20081015_al_jazeera_profiles_fanatics_in_small_town_ohio/

I don’t think they are.  For christ’s sake they believe Obama is a muslim.  They also apparently believe that all muslims are terrorists in disguise and that supposedly all christians are good.

Small business and family farms WERE the backbone of this country and our strength.  They’ve all but destroyed the concept of family farms, and it looks like small business is next.

It is alarming.  I also feel propaganda (via television, schools and many religious institutions) has played a larger role in our demise than most realize.

(1min)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5hEiANG4Uk&feature=related

(6min)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vorWknUybY&feature=related

(3min)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQTkczvE17U&feature=related

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By thebeerdoctor, October 16, 2008 at 9:36 am Link to this comment

K Delphi, Big B and everyone,

This business about Obama being so cool he is cold, is probably exactly what is needed now, when the 401k becomes 201k leading down to 1.1k. Has anyone noticed that when it comes to economics, the Senator’s soaring rhetoric has vanished? Emotional cockiness is left to the old Navy fighter pilot, who claims he knows that the people are angry and damn it! he is going to do something about it.
If you check out international financial news during the early morning hours, and hear comments from investors and economists NOT in the tank with the bailout, you’ll hear talk about a correction in the Dow that will descend to a leveling off point around 7000. And does it not appear to be headed that way?
The true believers in the market feel that however awful the effects of a total crash are, in the long run, it is better to start anew fresh, with all the rotten stuff flushed out. This is the problem with the Treasury’s attempts to engineer a soft landing. These massive cash infusions are going against the fundamental mechanics of the market itself. The market is demanding that the arm gets chopped off; the so-called T.A.R.P. tries to achieve this in smaller incremental cuts, but the amputation goal remains the same.
Of course John McCain is clueless on what to do, Barack Obama does not know either; the main difference is that Senator Obama is young enough and intelligent enough to actually search for solutions, or at least attempt to do so. Senator McCain continues to flail about, reacting emotionally to circumstances he can not fully understand.

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By KDelphi, October 16, 2008 at 8:33 am Link to this comment

I have no desire to debate Obama’s centrism, “FDR”-ness, etc. We shall have to just wait and see. I am not voting for him for myself, so , it matters not at all to me—if people feel no need to “urge” the Dems to be more populist, than so be it.I am absolutely sure that neither a Dem nor a gOP can help save this neighborhood, and I will not be here much longer. I always wanted out—I was just hoping I would know where I was going. NO—I didnt take out a bad loan.

Outraged—Maybe I’m being “stupid”, but, I’ll tell you—working within the “social system”, I knew what Wal-Mart was doing to worker and communities. I decided I woudl never shop there. That was when I was working. Now, I am on SSI and it is less than you even think,I can assure yu. I still would not shop at Wal-Mart unless I was in New Orlean without water. I just wont do it. I’ve heard people like Ted Koppel and Chris Dodd saying, “Well, I do love those sweat socks for $10”. Jeez!! These people are rich!! If I can avoid WM, they sure as hell can! FUCK WAL-MART! Even if you are poor—its suicidal. Dont do it.

Separad—Please dont stop seeing skin color. Its the spice of life!! Also, if you ignore skin, hair, eye color,sex, body build and height—how can you tell anyone apart?? I’m playing with you of course. I just always wonder what people mean by that. I know you mean that it doesnt matter to you. Or, you dont notice it, right off.  I know what you actually mean.

I voted for Hillary for health care.I wouldve voted for Edwards—but, look where we would be now.

Big B and beeer—-SOME people might buy the John Shaft stuff(LOL! Id forgotten about that guy!!), but it woudl be hard to paint Michele as Foxy Brown, now wouldnt it! She is as elegent as Jackie! Obama is “cool” all right. Sometimes I think, downright COLD. He should bring Michelle aroudn more. Maybe she is just with the kids alot, or interested in alot of other things.

I went to a branch of Ohio State, but, it was in Wooster, Ohio. Just for a year—I switched majors. But, my sister went to OS four years. That was awhile back. They call it “cow college”—(she majored in Chem. Engineering)and, who knows , I guess that there is probably some racism there. I know she dated an Af. Am. there, and was engaged to him, sortve off and on—but, she wasnt Greek or a jock. Could be different.

  I guess what bothers me is that, when Ohio went for Bush, and then—BUSH!! I thought I was going to die!! I was so embarassed, humiliated, angry, I cant tell you. So, I am touchy about it. There are some very good people here, and, my city is about 70% Af. Am. There are also plenty of other minorities (in that, if there are any PEOPLE left!). I go on and on about Ohio, and would not be here if I could afford to move. But, it begins to feel personal (I KNOW that its not!), but it hurts—I just tried SO hard, and then saw the Dems back down again and again again—without much of a fight.

Then, they offer nothing to the poorer people here, but everyone still wants to blame Ohio. I guess its the old, “my sister is a bitch, but dont you cal her one”. Or me one. Or whatever. I guess I never got over 2004—never will.

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By Big B, October 16, 2008 at 5:42 am Link to this comment

Beerdoc, you bring up an interesting point. The repug base have done nothing in the last month but attempt to portray Obama as a leather clad John Shaft, driving a white Eldorado, and whistling at white women. He’s one bad mother(shut your mouth!)

Maybe Mac’s next attack ad will feature an Obama administration with Fred the hammer Williamson as sec of defense, and Jim Brown as health and human services director.

It’s the last missle the old fighter pilot has under his wing. He will fire it indescriminatly into a school and fly his plane right into the nearest ship. He will take as many of the enemy with him as possible.

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By jackpine savage, October 16, 2008 at 5:05 am Link to this comment

Outraged,

That people don’t know/understand is true, but who’s fault is that? It is not as if we’re discussing something terribly deep and complex; joe six-pack commonsense is enough to get to the bottom of this situation. Ignore-ance is no excuse for anything.

My reference to corporate/retail creating the market is part of the problem, in so much as advertising helps create the consumer desire, and muddles the difference between need and want to such a degree that they become interchangeable.

Yes, some mom and pop places charge exorbitant prices…at this point because they almost have to to stay in business. But if you look closely at retail pricing in the big box world you find that the price differences are mostly confined to obvious items. For example, WalMart will make sure that milk is lower than any other store because people tend to use milk prices as a reference. A few lower prices like that and people start assuming that everything is lower.

Rural America is now trapped, without a doubt. But to a great degree it has trapped itself. And i’ve talked to a dismaying number of people who understand the situation full well, yet still go to WalMart because “the prices are lower.” My favorite, though, is the arch-conservative who rails against “welfare” on his way to WalMart…oblivious (or not) to the fact that the company policy is to have workers sign up for state medical benefits.

One thing that gives me pride about this little sliver of Up North is that many locals do see all of this and go out of their way to act on it. And this phenomenon occurs across the political spectrum. It of course helps to be stuck in the evolutionary and social cul-de-sac of America where our first Lowe’s won’t be open for another month. Local business people are known and supported because they are local, because people grew up with the business owners…or their kids go to school with the businessman’s kids, etc. etc.

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By thebeerdoctor, October 16, 2008 at 4:22 am Link to this comment

Senator Obama was not going to blow this, he was determined. That is why he choose the path of appearing as The Safest Black Man In America. And what a cool customer he is! You know they say a cat sitting in your lap lowers your blood pressure, well Barry doesn’t need that. Watching Senator McCain ideologically flail away last night revealed what the man representing the state of Arizona truly is: a frustrated old man.
Obama had his game face on. You want to indulge in the Joe the plumber fantasy? Barack is cool with that. He will go along with the gag. It is just like someone having an invisible friend talking on an imagined telephone.
The reason McCain could get nowhere was because he was trying his damn best (you betcha!) to portray Obama as something other than the moderate centrist Democrat he actually is. Perhaps it would have helped if Obama sported a huge Afro and wore a black leather jacket with a gun belt (by gobs, then that William Ayers shit would have really stuck!).
But alas for poor Maverick, I did not want to know him well. He wanted (no strike that, desperately needed) someone with a colourful biography who once shouted Burn Baby Burn instead of the Guys? Has somebody called the fire department?

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By Sepharad, October 15, 2008 at 10:59 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Big B—Our oldest son teaches at Ohio SU in Columbus, and he describes the residual racism among people he’s gotten to know in the area pretty much as you have, and at the outset of Obama’s candidacy said that a mixed-race candidate would have trouble winning. Given the magnitude of this country’s other problems, I truly did not think race would be a factor, maybe because our own sprawling famiy is so farflung-multi-ethnic I’ve just stopped seeing skin color. I supported Hillary because I thought she was better qualified (and, OK, because she was a woman), but never thought race would be a major drawback to Obama. (Some campaign expert said he figures you have to knock two percentage points off O’s poll results, which is no big deal except in close contests, which this one may be. He’s not even close to my idea of an ideal President, but he’s as good as we seem able to field these sad days. (It’s bugged me a bit that the campaign has kept Michelle Obama under wraps: is she too dark, or are they afraid she’ll exacerbate overly sensitive voters by her blunt remarks? You’d think that with Palin running around literally rabble-rousing any kind of commentary bar is set pretty damned low.

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By Outraged, October 15, 2008 at 10:31 pm Link to this comment

Re: jackpine savage

Your comment: “We are as responsible for the outsourcing of jobs as corporate America is. Every time we head down to the WalMart to find “great deals” we play our part.

To this I say yes and no.  Not everyone is privy to the reality of the situation.  Eventually, sure…but at the onset, certainly not. I’m assuming that if you’re “up nort” you MUST realize this.

A lot of folks, in these areas, are simply “trying to get by” and in all seriousness, I find it hard to accept that if they TRULY understood the gravity of these things they would shop at “the retail criminals”.  These same retail criminals underpay their employees and drive the “mom and pops” out of business.  In this same vein, SOME of the “mom and pops” charge exorbitantly for their fares.  I understand that many do not have the buying power of a “supercenter” yet still, some are driving down this same road, buyer be damned.

When you live in a small community, at least “nowadays”, you are held hostage as a consumer.  Damned if you do, and damned if you don’t.  Remember, many are simply attempting to do the best that they can with what they have available.  So they say to themselves, should I deny myself more food or clothing, or shop at the local merchants.

The bottom line here is Wal-Mart KNOWS this, and they’ve exploited it.  In the same token, many small businesses have exploited their compatriots for years.  So…. is it the consumers fault, in these small communities, when they carry no allegiance to anyone…?

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By jackpine savage, October 15, 2008 at 9:53 pm Link to this comment

Outraged,

I’m unfamiliar with the bill you mention, so i am not commenting on it; explaining Obama’s position; etc.

Laws are not going to be the answer to fixing trade issues, because there are always ways to get around laws. They can help, but they can only treat the symptoms.

We are as responsible for the outsourcing of jobs as corporate America is. Every time we head down to the WalMart to find “great deals” we play our part. Great you saved $1.50 on that new garden hose, but at what long term cost? Will a US garden hose manufacturer go out of business because they cannot operate at those margins? We expect sales, deals, everyday low prices…ad nauseum. No, we demand them to keep up our consumer lifestyle. The store/corporation is going to retain its margin, so either prices go up or labor/materials go down.

That smiley face at the WalMart telling you that a price has been cut, that isn’t WalMart dipping into its margin to help you out. That is WalMart telling the supplier that they’ll accept an X% cut per item if they want any more of WalMart’s business.

Free trade is essential, but it is just a tool dependent on the use someone puts it to. I’m no fan of corporate America, and i realize that they create the “market” as much as they respond to the “market”. But eventually, We the Consumer have power and responsibility.

We could boycott the company that outsources its manufacturing. We could realize that small decisions add up. We could go out of our way to patronize local, regional, national producers at the expense of those who offshore.

But we can hardly expect politicians to do the right thing for us…if we have no intention of doing the right thing for ourselves, our neighbors, and Joe the Plumbing supply company owner.

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By Outraged, October 15, 2008 at 9:36 pm Link to this comment

Re: jackpine savage

Your comment: “Up here along the shores of Lake Superior,”

I had to respond.  You lucky dog, on the big lake they call “Gitche Gumee”  (Gordon Lightfoot, LOL).  I’m jealous.  This is my favorite lake.

Whenever I met people “out west”, I would tell them that this is THE one place, that if you’re ever in the vicinity, you want to experience.

Incredible lake, a living breathing enity, powerful and serene.  I’ve been in many places along the south shore and camped there as a child.  We used to wade out in the water, about up to our waist (you don’t want any sand or crud) and scoop up a pitcher full of water to make Kool-Aid (LOL), can’t do that anymore.  Still beautiful though, and its power entrancing.  Incredible lake, incredible.

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By leilah, October 15, 2008 at 7:30 pm Link to this comment

It’s all about Joe the plumber.  Who knew?

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By Outraged, October 15, 2008 at 6:42 pm Link to this comment

Re: cyrena

Your comment: “Trade is absolutely CRITICAL to the overall economy and our own survival. FREE trade, (which is what I suspect is your concern, since that’s what has put us so perilously out of balance) isn’t the same. Obama knows that, but not everyone does, so those concepts are easily misunderstood, even by the so-called brilliant among us.

Obama’s position and record regarding FREE TRADE is not good.

Regarding the North American Free Trade Agreement, Obama recently boasted, “I don’t think NAFTA has been good for Americans, and I never have.” Yet, Calvin Woodward reviewed Obama’s record on NAFTA in a February 26, 2008 Associated Press article and found that comment to be misleading: “In his 2004 Senate campaign, Obama said the US should pursue more deals such as NAFTA, and argued more broadly that his opponent’s call for tariffs would spark a trade war. AP reported then that the Illinois senator had spoken of enormous benefits having accrued to his state from NAFTA, while adding that he also called for more aggressive trade protections for US workers.”

Putting aside campaign rhetoric, when actually given an opportunity to protect workers from unfair trade agreements, Obama cast the deciding vote against an amendment to a September 2005 Commerce Appropriations Bill, proposed by North Dakota Senator Byron Dorgan, that would have prohibited US trade negotiators from weakening US laws that provide safeguards from unfair foreign trade practices. The bill would have been a vital tool to combat the outsourcing of jobs to foreign workers and would have ended a common corporate practice known as “pole-vaulting” over regulations, which allows companies doing foreign business to avoid “right to organize,” “minimum wage,” and other worker protections.

http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2008/Obama-Craze-Gonzalez27feb08.htm

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By jackpine savage, October 15, 2008 at 5:41 pm Link to this comment

Up here along the shores of Lake Superior, race isn’t much of an issue…if only because there aren’t any but white (and some Native Americans). This, of course, does not mean that there aren’t plenty of racists.

I will say that i’ve been surprised by some of the houses that have Obama signs out front, but it’s hard to say because people around here aren’t terribly demonstrative (overall) about their intended voting. I can say that i’ve heard very little discussion over Obama’s race.

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By cyrena, October 15, 2008 at 5:28 pm Link to this comment

KDelphi,

I understand (really) about being tired of the whole thing, and getting to the point of not caring.

You might be surprised to know that Barak also agrees with this thing being WAAYYYY too long! He’s even come up with a proposal, (about a month or so ago) to cut it much, much shorter for future elections.

Now, that would be an excellent idea, if we could maintain a year ‘round interest (as a society) in our politics. It’s apathy that got us where we are today, and that’s why the results of extreme imbalances wind up ‘seeming’ to need extreme measures to correct.

I also think that if you look more carefully, (and from mulitiple viewpoints) you’d find a whole lot more similarities between Roosevelt and Obama than you might think, adjusting for changes in the social structure, the same way that we have to ‘adjust’ for anything. Specfics may be different, (we’re talking about a 70 or so year gap) but the fundamentals/ideology are very similar.

I won’t bore you with the market topics, since I admittedly don’t much care about them myself, other than to the extent that it figures into the whole picture, and the results that do in fact trickle down, rather than up.

But, just an admittedly brief and general comment, my own observation senses that some folks are confusing trade and the free market. Trade is absolutely CRITICAL to the overall economy and our own survival. FREE trade, (which is what I suspect is your concern, since that’s what has put us so perilously out of balance) isn’t the same. Obama knows that, but not everyone does, so those concepts are easily misunderstood, even by the so-called brilliant among us.

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By KDelphi, October 15, 2008 at 5:18 pm Link to this comment

Dr KnowitallPhD, PhD—-Yep.

BitchMSWMSW

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By Dr. Knowitall, PhD, PhD, October 15, 2008 at 4:34 pm Link to this comment

@Kwaayesnama,

The only reason I need to not vote for McSame is his running mate, who could very likely become prez in the first few months of McSame’s administration.

People I’ve debated the merits of the candidates with care more about right-to-life than they do a possible President Palin.  Nor do they mind living from paycheck to paycheck as long as a right-to-lifer is in the WH.  These are the very same who think it’s ok to beat the shit out of the Iraqis and kill their kids.  Go figure.

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By KDelphi, October 15, 2008 at 2:39 pm Link to this comment

cyrena—You might be right. I am just going by what I have heard him say about the “free market”. But, to be honest, I am not interested enough in it to look it up—it doesnt matter to me. He is better than McCain. O’ll give you that. The US needing a “centrist” right now—I think we need more of an FDR. And, I sure dont think that Obama is that.I’ve been throuigh the tax cuts, the “rebate” on taxes, the “health care”, etc,.I dont want to do it anymore.

I’d rather be wrong than look it up—I’m so tired of the entire campaign—it is too long

But, I will retract the supply side economics thing—I just dont care.

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By cyrena, October 15, 2008 at 2:21 pm Link to this comment

By KDelphi, October 15 at 11:07 am #


Kwaayesnanno—Sorry. Obama is a supply side capitalist economist. We do not need more Wal-Mart and Gap jobs that send manufacturing jobs overseas. Obama is very centrist
~~~~~~~

KDelphi,

Here’s where you get into trouble, and that is in making ‘generalities’ that don’t exist, and that you don’t even attempt to defend. Specifically…that Obama is a “‘supply-side’ capitalist economist.” And then, in the same breath, you say that he is ‘very centrist’.

The first is totally incorrect, and it’s worth if for you (or anyone) to actually do the work to make such a case, before presenting the broad side of your hypothesis/opinion. I can tell you in advance, that you aren’t going to be able to defend the ‘supply side capitalist economist’ part, and it’s an outright falsehood to say that he is willing to continue to ship jobs overseas.

You CAN argue far more effectively, the ‘centrist’ claim, but even that….you have to break down. These old lables don’t go anywhere without specifics, and in theory, ‘center’ is NOT a bad place to be!! Because in theory, the further away from the center any entity becomes, the closer they move to the extreme, which represents an inbalance, which ultimately causes a crash. It doesn’t matter “where” the inbalance exists, it’s gonna be a problem regardless. So we need to be really careful about these old terms that we throw around, and learn to view them from more than one angle or channel.

Again, from many perspectives, the CENTER is a safe place to be, including in politics. We see where the inflexibilty of radicalism has placed us all. Radical extremism, (as has been practiced by the Thug regime of the past 8 years) and tilted us DANGEROUSLY out of balance, and we are living the result. That’s what radical/extremism does, and it doesn’t matter if it’s to the left, or to the right…out of balance is out of balance.

Meantime, if you have the time and the resources, check back through the real results of supply-side economics, because there is no connection to old time Reganomics and the economic philosophy of Barack Obama, who we know is perfectly willing to utilize a tax wherever he can see one as instrumental in creating the balance. These are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

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By Big B, October 15, 2008 at 12:28 pm Link to this comment

Kdelphi

I certainly hope Ohio goes to the dimmos this time. Just try to keep an eye on who is tending the voting booths in the cleveland area.(who am I, a pennsyltuckian, to give electoral advice to? we were responsible for Santorum, twice!)

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By KDelphi, October 15, 2008 at 12:07 pm Link to this comment

Kwaayesnanno—Sorry. Obama is a supply side capitalist economist. We do not need more Wal-Mart and Gap jobs that send manufacturing jobs overseas. Obama is very centrist.

But McCain will makes things worse. I dont think many people who post here regularly are even thinking of Mccain. I considered Third Party—-but, I’m voting Obama for friends and family. I dont think he will help them much. But, he may not make it worse.

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By KDelphi, October 15, 2008 at 12:01 pm Link to this comment

Big B—Well, the state must be breaking into zones, because here in Dayton (not exactly Cleveland), I’ll share an anecdotasl experience , also. I had to have a tree taken off of my house yesterday (well, partly, out OF. my house..). I called friends from the southern rural county I used to live in, to get a break on price, in case my insurance wont pay. They all came (except one) wearing Obama t-shirts. These are rural, working clas Ohioans. The guy who didnt—had on a Texas t-shirt and spoke Spanish. They said he was a “contractor from Texas”.

We always complained about Ky. and W Va overflow—we screamed it Nov. 5 ,. 2004!

I think that it is more what the article said—-he is paying them some attention now, it is a matter of familiarity. I personally, don t think that Obama will do much for the workign classes, and, after all the money they just spent, along with not, reversing th4e tas cuts, he probably would not be able to if he wanted to. But he is better for them then McCain, and I am glad to see it.

But, hey, if youre going to allow preachers to tell you how to vote, and favor faith based initiatives, you have no cause to complain. Sword cuts both ways when people dont think for themselves.

My parents were lifelong GOP, until my dad got sick of it and voted Jimmy Carter. I do not know who these “lot of people are”—but I dont keep that kind of company. Ohio is going for Obama, and I wil be voting for him. McCain’s racism helped me decide. I dont particularly like Obama’s policies—but i’ll be damned if I’m going to let it make me vopte agaInst policies that ,wont make things worse.

I cant believe that your grandmother would talk that way to you—did she always? I did not see my maternal grandmother more than once a year for the last couple decades of her life, due to a split in our family over my mothers’ mother and sisters saying words I wont type here—racist words. My dad refused to let us go.When I tried to talk to my aunt towards the end of my mother’s life, she said not to “put her in a home where there are black people and people who did nothing with their lives”. My dad was right. We havent spoken since, except at one funeral. That was one reason why I was confused at Obama’s “typical white person” grandmother—my dad did not see it that way,and I’m sorry for people who’s family does. But, they would certainly not be regular guests of mine. Think of your kids!

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By SwingVoter, October 15, 2008 at 9:39 am Link to this comment

The Top 50 Swing Voter Demographics:

#50 - Hockey Moms
#47 - People with STDs
#40 - Anonymous Sperm Donors
#35 - Pot Heads
#28 - Grown Men Who Play Video Games

http://swingvoters.wordpress.com

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By Kwaayesnama, October 15, 2008 at 9:14 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

This is something you need to think about if you are planning to vote for the McCain/Palin ticket. 

Do you think McCain cares about the average American? – Think again!

In 26 years John McCain voted against increasing the minimum wage 18 times. In the same 26 years he voted for tax breaks for the wealthiest 2% of America 27 times. Why should that matter to you? McCain believes in a trickle down economy. You know if the wealthy get wealthier they will share with you.

Obama believes in a trickle up economy, higher salaries for workingmen and women. When they earn more money they are able buy or keep homes, resulting in more employment in building trades. They buy clothes for their children, resulting in more Wal-Mart and GAP jobs. They will purchase new trucks and cars that will keep auto workers employed. They are able to keep their internet provider so they are able to purchase items on Ebay.

Now what is better for this nation a trickle down economy or a trickle up economy? 

This republican is voting for Obama because we have tried a trickle down economy for eight years and look where this nation is now! Could it get any worse with Obama/Biden? I am a Arizona Republican and I will be voting for the intellectual ticket, Obama/Biden.

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By Hulk2008, October 15, 2008 at 8:29 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Big B: 
    Your local news is not good for sure.  What a shame so many people are voting against their own best interests - worse still are all the so-called “christian” preachers pouring out the hatred and fear.  Jesus never discriminated - even against the Samaritans whom the Jews despised - Simon of Cyrene carried His cross (Simon was from what is now Libya).  We do see TV evangelists putting Obama down irrationally - sometimes even making up phony Biblical references to support their ravings. 
  But the finest, most logical statement I have heard lately was presented by the head of the AFL-CIO Richard Trumka.  He said to a friend “Are you out of your ever-lovin’ mind?” when a friend said she would not vote for a black man.  He pointed out that Barack is truly fighting for people - skin color is less than meaningless in that effort.
See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QIGJTHdH50
  Offer the link to your friends and acquaintances if they are at all interested in their own jobs, children, and futures.  Powerful stuff.

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By Big B, October 15, 2008 at 6:04 am Link to this comment

I live on the Ohio/PA/WV border. Let me share some of my recent experiences.

Last week I had a new furnace put in. While the man did a wonderful job, he and his blue collar will be voting for Mccain. He still thinks Barry is a Muslim.

A friend of mine, who attends one of these ultra-conservative presbyterian churches, says their minister has suggested everyone vote for McCain. Apparently, the democrats are trying to introduce socialism to the US, and everybody knows socialists do not approve of religion. Also, the congregation is entirely white.

A friend of my wifes, an RN and a black woman, just moved back to the Ohio Valley to take care of an ailing mother. She had been working in South Carolina for 20 years and her first impression upon her return was how racist the area still was after all these years.(she is unfortunatly correct. the word nigger is still used in casual conversation between whites in this area)

My own parents, lifelong democrats, will not vote for that “uppity” black man.

Maybe things are different in other regions of our nation. But here in the rust belt, it’s still 1973.

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By Fahrenheit 451, October 15, 2008 at 4:18 am Link to this comment

Economy Trumps Race in Ohio;

Maybe.
I don’t trust polls, I don’t trust reporters; I do trust my own experience of 20 years wearing a blue collar as a machinist and 10 years as a CAD engineer.  I went to university off and on for 30 years.  I think I have a little bit of a feeling of what people are like across a broad spectrum of jobs and education.  That’s what worries me; there’s not a huge difference.  But, I really don’t know which way this will go; November 4th will tell me.

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