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Curb Your Enthusiasm for Obama

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Posted on Aug 31, 2008
AP photo / Jae C. Hong

By Chris Hedges

(Page 2)

We on the left, those who should be out there fighting for universal health care and total and immediate withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan, sit like lap dogs on the short leashes of our Democratic (read corporate) masters. We yap now and then, but we have forgotten how to snarl and bite. We have been domesticated. And until we punish the two main parties the way big corporations do, by withdrawing support and funding when our issues are ignored, we will remain irrelevant and impotent. I detest Bill O’Reilly, but he is right on one thing—we liberals are a spineless lot. 

Labor unions don’t negotiate with corporations on the basis of good will. They negotiate carrying the threat of a strike. What power do we have as long as we cave on every issue we stand for, from opposition to the death penalty to battling back against the military-industrial complex? 

It is not about liking or not liking Obama. It is not about race or class or gender. It is not about growing up poor or a member of the working class. There is no shortage of greasy politicians who, once in power, sold out their own. Look at Bill Clinton. It is about fighting back. It is about confronting a system that belittles us, what we stand for and what is best for the majority of Americans. We need to throw our support behind alternative candidates who champion what we care about, whether Cynthia McKinney or Ralph Nader. Bob Barr’s health care plan, like John McCain’s, is even worse than Obama’s tepid proposal. We need to begin to actively and militantly defy the corporate state, and this means stepping outside of the two-party system. Universal health insurance is one issue. There are others. Nothing we care about will change until we do.

The Democrats, who promise to end the war in Iraq, create jobs and provide universal health care, ignore these promises once election cycles are over. And we never make them pay. They gave us NAFTA, the destruction of welfare and increased military spending, and we gave them our vote. This is the party that took back Congress in 2006 on an anti-war platform and then increased troop levels and funding for the Iraq war. This is a party that talks about the crushing weight of debt carried by Americans and then refuses to cap predatory interest rates as high as 30 percent imposed by credit card companies. This is a party that promises to protect our constitutional rights and then passes the FISA bill to protect the telecommunications companies. The list goes on.  These politicians, including Obama, must begin to feel heat. They must learn that there is a cost to be paid for working on behalf of corporations and disempowering citizens.

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By KDelphi, September 24, 2008 at 6:36 pm Link to this comment

Gawd, this one was so old, I forgot about it, Amerigus.

I agree with you less than I did then. Obama has gone back on almost every thing he ran on in the primary. I dont know where you live, but if you werent gung-ho Obama , from day one, (or at least after Hillary gave her ‘command”)you are not welcome. Fine. I only re-registered as Dem to try to vote W out—it didnt work.

I’m back with the socialist party, and I am very comfortable staying there.If you are comfortable with teh Dems platform, you should stay there. I have references from Mother Jones and others about the money Obama has taken from health insurance corp. I dont think that I need to repeat them here. I know taht all candidates do, but this is the most expensive election in the history of the world. It is ridiculous and unbelievabley arrogant for the US to do this with the way the economy is and hte global warming causing so many to be without food and water.

As for “squeezing providers”—who cares?? (I assume you mean insurance cos.—if you mean drs.—they get by just fine—living middle clas—in western Europe—let them do it here) They are one of the most proiffitable industries inthe uS! Every civilized country in the world has health care for all. They make money turning people down for life saving treatment. They dont give a damn about people. Why would you give a damn about them?

People that profit from war, death , and turning people down for health care, ned to go into another line of work

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By Amerigus, September 24, 2008 at 6:22 pm Link to this comment

The left represents only about 30% of the country, meaning there will never be an administration swept in to grant the author’s political wish list.

Obama is a pragmatist and is far more trustworthy then Hillary or McCain (notwithstanding FISA, Afghanistan and coal plants) and has spoken about improving health care from the start.  I’m also a pragmatist - we need Obama in the White House for the block as the Kucinich wing battles the Pelosi/Hillary wing for the heart of the Dem party.

I agree wholeheartedly on the need for crushing the for-profit health care conglomerates and see that Obama’s plan falls far short - but unlike Hillary’s, his plan emphasizes cost-cutting and leaves much unspecified, leaving the door open for putting the squeeze on providers.

The “campaign contribution” conflicts-of-interest above make a common mistake of totaling individual contributor donations listed by industry as if the donations came in bundled. There has also been nothing mentioned above to imply Obama or his wife have performed in kind for any heath care industry donations.  I maintain Obama’s incremental change is the best path for the moment and that a vote for Nader, McKinney or Barr is a futile exercise in nihilism.

I urge every progressive to become active in their local Democratic party, taking advantage of existing apparatus for you to have a real influence in your community. There is a major influx happening today thanks to new and young voters. Staying out of the boots-on-the-ground activism just leaves to others the power to automatically put candidates on ballots, use enormous mailing lists and long-existing organizational frameworks. Don’t re-invent the wheel, oppose the corporatist stooges in your own district! I promise you’ll find more like-minded folks in your local Dem committees then you think.

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By KDelphi, September 9, 2008 at 10:14 am Link to this comment

MY Republican Party. I know youre trying to get me going, so I refuse. YOu really need to get a reality check. But youre too busy judging everyone else. You know how I am registered—I was dumb enough to opem up to you. We talked about some common experiences we had had. THEN__I DISAGREED WITH YOU! How dare I! It is reall bad form to take advantage when someone opens up to you.Mean ass.

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By cyrena, September 9, 2008 at 9:16 am Link to this comment

KDelphi writes:

“I’m not the enemy—the govt—adn the party I belonged to for so many years, just treats me like it.”

~~~~

Uh…that would be the Republican Party if I remember correctly from you earlier mega posts, right?

Well, I don’t know if it would make you feel any better for me to remind you, -AGAIN-, that your republican party has treated millions this way. So many have wound up just as dead as your dad and mine. (Mine even had insurance).

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By Folktruther, September 9, 2008 at 8:34 am Link to this comment

You ARE the enemy of the American government and the neolib leaders of the Dem party.  That is why their supporters here attack you so much.  You see through much of the professional obfuscation used to justify the Dem support of wars, of Dem destruction of Roosevelt reforms, and of Dem leader support for an American police state. 

And you say so in an unprofessional way, and they can’t stand it.  So they call names which they substitute for sustained thought.

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By cilcsster, September 9, 2008 at 7:15 am Link to this comment

To KDelphi… your statement “govt. doesn’t run on hope but action”  notice please that the politicians are careful not to show their hands to their nemesis who are in power and would just steal their ideas.
“your desire to increase govt. power”. Last night on the news I see they just nationalized Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac”.  Granted they are keeping their fingers crossed, but isn’t it interesting that they realized their system was lacking something crucial?

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By KDelphi, September 8, 2008 at 10:05 pm Link to this comment

LOL—I’m not so tough.I’m just hurt and angry. I grew up in Ohio—but I lived up there with my dad for about 2 yrs. He played the sax in a jazz band up there for awhile. The only Danish guy in the band!! LOL! He was a great guy.He died in the Bronx in a Hospice (he’d worked so hard to buy a farm—he grew tired of the city)when he developed brain cancer adn the insurance at the small company he had just started working for dropped his coverage.My mom in Ohio was a drug addict and threw him out. She kept breaking in my house here, so we sent him to NY to live with my sister. My mom spent al his savings on god knows what, so he died in an indigent hospice—but they were SO good to him you would never know it.I know I am opening myself up here-so be it. Pounce. It’d be easy to do. Time would be better spent on the right wing fascists that get in here.I’m not the enemy—the govt—adn the party I belonged to for so many years, just treats me like it.

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By Folktruther, September 8, 2008 at 9:56 pm Link to this comment

Your dad taught at Wayne state, Adelphi?  That was a great school, a lot of radicals there.  Freezing cold in Detroit, just as it was in Chicago.  If you grew up there, it’s no wonder you’re so tough and smart.  Otherwise you’d have been dead long ago.

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By KDelphi, September 8, 2008 at 8:06 pm Link to this comment

PhDPhDPhD—Heard it all my life. My dad had one. My sister has one. I have an MS. So the f*ck what. Remember the old MENSA ?? LOL. My dad was invited to join. He went to a meeting (back when psychologists still thought IQs meant something)and, being all eager to hear about the “smartest people in the world”, asked about it, and he said, “What a bunch of intellectual snobs! All they do is sit around and talk about how smart they are.I dont see that that accomplishes anything.”. Teaching at Wayne State Univ. accomplished something. Testifying as an expert witness against Ford , for the exploding Pinto accomplished alot (Human Factors Engineering) Helping NASA with the centrufuge at WPAFB was great. My sister teaching economics at SUNY/Purchase accomplishes alot. Talking about how dumb everyone else is—accomplishes alienating people and losing elections.

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By Shenonymous, September 8, 2008 at 6:36 pm Link to this comment

I’ve been baited, I admit.  You might have a case for my ignorance but for stupidity, you do not.  Your perceptual skills are sorely lacking.  Regardless of your ad hominem denigrations, in the plural, of my intelligence and advanced degree, your opinion Folktruther is negligible.  I have been on TD for a very long time and anyone who had paid any attention knows my credentials and you aren’t owed any updated explanation.  You seem to think that vague implications provide some sort of justification for your weak accusations.  That is one reason why I called you feeble.  It looks as though your emotionally charged one-track ideology consistently trips you up.  You may be an educated person and can talk about mathematical models, but, surprisingly then, you do not seem to know what fallacious reasoning is and how you are an easy mark for it.  You must be in league with those academics you described yesterday who can only handle one specialty at a time. Except you do try to display some, albeit, vague expertise at math models in combination with the economic political system of marxism in some effort to synthesize them. For instance, what exactly do you base your statement, I have to say that the universities appear to have hit a new low recently in turning out Educated dimwits.? What are the names of the universities that have turned out the Educated dimwits?  And name the dimwits.  This is also called ad hominem fallacy or can also be called the fallacy of accident, the collecting an entire universe of subjects and depreciating every member.  Since it is your accusation, the burden of proof is on you to provide verifiable evidence.

Your interest in deriving a new ideology from marxism is more vague as you described it than you can imagine.  What could you possibly mean by the inclusion of ethnicity, racial groupings and economic groupings under the rubric of a math model?  This in no way gives a clue to the weakness of marxism critique and, disconnectedly, does not give any reason that there is or has been an alleged influence of Zionism in the US power system. This is an appeal to ignorance fallacy.  There are more insidious reasons for that influence such as the number of wealthy zionistas in this country that give Israel support, the perception of a strategic importance of Israel in the middle of an Arab coalition to the United States, and there are others.  I am not saying it is right, just what is the reality. 

If you can, please describe your understanding of the social innovations that will allow a possible development of a math framework for your concept regarding the viability of a “second generation” ideology, so we, I, can check your references.  Also could you be a little bit more accurate by saying the “Republican corporate excuse” of a “bogus war on Terrorism of the 21st, century?”  Also when you say “The American population was ideologically disarmed by the mainstream obfuscation and deception of American ideology,” could you briefly describe that ideology as you perceive it and explain what you mean by the ambiguous phrasing of “mainstream obfuscation and deception?”

You know Folktruther this a rather isolated conversation we are having and really has nothing to do with the topic of this forum and we ought to take it elsewhere.  I would be willing to discuss these things with you via email.  If interested I will provide an email address.

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By Folktruther, September 8, 2008 at 10:13 am Link to this comment

Effete!  Effete! You cut me to the quick, Dr Shenonymous.  I have been called many, many names in my lifetime but effete has never been one of them before.  Most people don’t think of ex-communist dock workers as effete but with your acdemic background, and customary imprecision, you have innovated a new defamation.  I congratulate you.

And I see that you have expanded beyond adjectives into nouns, a whole new area.  I forget whether you called Hedges feeble and me reactionary, or Hedges reactionary and me feeble, but you can now refer to both of us as reactionary feebs, just like the adolescents who you intellectually resemble.

But you never told us, Dr Shenon, what your degree was in. Adjectives?  Phys ed?  Education?  Theology? Auto repair?  No, auto repair is actually useful, it wouldn’t be that. Something much softer no doubt.

I remember when I gave some lectures to a graduate seminar on math models years ago how appalled I was by ignorance and disinterest of students, and by the backbiting of the faculty.  My wife had the same ordeal in her academic experience.  I have to say that the universities appear to have hit a new low recently in turning out Educated dimwits.

But, in addition to providing comedy relief Dr Shenon,  you have put your finger on a crucial characteristic of my persona, my ideological one track mind.  As you doubtless don’t know, since you are obviously ignorant of even schoolbook history, the 20th century saw the rise of marxist theory as the opposition and ruling idology of much of the world.  It was repressed in the US during the War on Communism, which is why liberalism, a conservative ideology in most capitalist polities, is the progressive ideology in the US.

When the War on Communism of the 20th century segued into the bogus War on Terrorism of the 21st, the American population was ideologically disarmed by the mainstream obfuscation and deception of American ideology.

What I am interested in is helping to form a second generation ideology derived from marxism that includes ethnicity and racial groupings as well as economic groupings.  This is the grreat weakness of marxism critque, and is largely the reason that the influence of Zionism in the US power system was overlooked for so long.  It is possible to develop a math framework that implies such a conception, due to conceptual innovations associated with American social science.

This is why it is useful to discourse with the more perceptive truthers on the Internet, which, unfortunately, you are not one.  But even so, it is helpful to encounter Educated stupidity and ignorance, as it gives me some idea of where people are at ideologically at the present time, and I thank you for your assistence.

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By Shenonymous, September 8, 2008 at 4:04 am Link to this comment

Elite is such a broad term, Leefeller.  It could mean anything from royalty and nobility (in this country it would be the “old families” who think they inherited the right to be first) to the wealthy regardless of how they came by their money, and we know that money buys elitist rank whether they wear cowboy hats, zuchettos, kippahs, topis, or turbans.  Or, it could be the “chosen” ones selected by a god, of which there are at least three different Abrahamic groups in the world that make that claim, oh, four if Mormons are included, and of course there would be a yippieeee war to see which one would survive.  We cannot forget the Dalai Lama!  Would he be the first of the first to get in the boat?  The Chinese Committee might have something to say about that regardless that the ship is going under!  How about the highest ranking militarymen, they have might on their side if not god?  There are also those who are the best at athletics such as the medal winners of the Olympic games, or sports stars such as golf, tennis, futball, baseball, basketball, soccer, sailing, rowing, and ... Then how about the elite in science, or chess masters?  The winners of spelling bees and summa cum laudes?  The best doctors?  Forget about lawyers and supreme court judges for my part they can drown first.  Hollywood and the theatre, and the music world also have their elite, and the world of literature as well. And cannot forget the best artists.  And last but not least, we have our “elite” politicians, or is that last one just a big joke?

Good grief, a double-wide sinking Noah’s Ark would not be big enough!

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By Leefeller, September 7, 2008 at 9:59 pm Link to this comment

She

“Being on board a sinking ship is not a good feeling, is it still women and children first? “

She, responded by saying

”Asking if women and children still go first seems to be saying you want to go first, Leefeller?”

Not at all, it was something I remember from old movies and now   the way things have been happening,  it would be the elite who believe they should go first.

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By Shenonymous, September 7, 2008 at 8:48 pm Link to this comment

An effete such as yourself, Folktruther, is not really worthy of further discussion.  I will end my conversation with you with this post by saying you apparently have nothing more than banter to contribute.  You continue to speak in contentless generalities denigrating universities and colleges as a whole with your usual fallacious strategy by not specifying any one institution nor any particular academic practice, which in effect makes your criticism absolutely useless.  You obviously have not spent much time seeking higher education.  I can only suppose you do not have a well-rounded education that has left you biased and prejudiced against those who do.

Your academic friends may not be brilliant simply because they aren’t.  I know plenty of professors who are not the brightest lights in the galaxy of academia.  However, on the whole, in my experience, academics are extraordinarily intellectual and sophisticated.  They are superbly well-rounded thinkers.  On the other hand, you appear to be too shortsighted to notice whether anybody can think beyond their one specialty or appreciate anyone with a vocabulary more than humdrum.  One-track minds like yourself, and possibly those one-track college acquaintances could be mentally hamstrung by their limited capacity to think liberally because they were only able to handle the confines of ‘a specialty’.  This kind of narrow or restrictive quality of education is one of the roots of conservativism and possibly explains much of the attitude you expressed on this forum.  And with this I will give it over to others to deal with Folktruther, who seems to lack any imagination at all.

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By cyrena, September 7, 2008 at 8:27 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther writes:

•  “..The universities seem to be degenerating like the rest of Ameria’s institutions, only first and faster.  the universities, with notable exceptions, are intellectual warehouses in the Marketplace of Ideas.”

And, you would know this…..HOW? (that the universities ‘seem’ to be degenerating?) Or, is that just another one of your armchair opinion?

This is odd as well:

•  “I have a number of friends who are academics and somehow I never noticed how brilliant they were, particularly in political and ideological matters.  Generally they have mastered a specialty and pursue a career based on it.”

Ideology has zero to do with ‘brilliance’ and not a whole lot to do with pure academics, aside from being aware of the various ideologies held by various and sundry figures or groups that have any bearing on the whole.

Do you even know what ‘academics’ are Folktruther? They generally make their careers in ACADEMICS. If they leave to pursue a career based on what the mastered, then they aren’t academics anymore. Academics are either always learning, or always teaching, and it’s usually a combination of both.

Academics (medical students) aren’t really academics once they master their specialty (gastroenterology maybe) and go off to practice it (same a pursuing a career based on it). Most of the ones I know are pretty brilliant, even if it doesn’t happen to be a political brilliance, (why would I care if the gastroenterologist was a brilliant political mind?) and their ideology shouldn’t have a damn thing to do with whatever I need for her/him to know.

As for the universities degenerating, I’ve noticed the exact opposite, and that’s under a very rigorous compare/contrast mode of observation. I’ve been able to do that with a few universities here in my own home state, comparing them between the 70’s and now…first hand, up close and personal. They’re either all better, or mine are the notable exceptions. I think MOST are better.

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By Folktruther, September 7, 2008 at 7:28 pm Link to this comment

My God, you have a doctorate, Shenonymous!  No wonder you’re so intelligent and know such a lot about the power process! And here I thought you were just calling names.  Well, that throws an entirely different light on the inane comments… excuse me, Dr. Shenonymous, on your brilliant insights into the human condition.  I sit abashed before my intellectual superior.

But you know, Dr Shenonymous, I have a number of friends who are academics and somehow I never noticed how brilliant they were, particularly in political and ideological matters.  Generally they have mastered a specialty and pursue a career based on it.

The universities seem to be degenerating like the rest of Ameria’s institutions, only first and faster.  the universities, with notable exceptions, are intellectual warehouses in the Marketplace of Ideas.  And the warehousers are midbrow elitists who are offended by ideological deviation.

Except for you of course.

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By Shenonymous, September 7, 2008 at 4:37 pm Link to this comment

So is my Ph.D.,  Folktruther.

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By cyrena, September 7, 2008 at 4:06 pm Link to this comment

OK Tony,

Took a while, but I wanted to search as thoroughly as I could.

And, the results are…zip. I can’t find anything that Barack Obama has said in any ‘direction’ on resolution 676.

It is still doing it’s normal thing in the House of Congress, and I don’t know how it will fare. But, as we know, it has to go through that part of the act first, before it would get to the Senate, wherein Obama and McCain would then have to record a position. I don’t think it’s gonna happen between now and the end of the year, but who knows?

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By Folktruther, September 7, 2008 at 3:40 pm Link to this comment

Your higher intellignece is an inspiration to us all, Shenonymous.  Keep up the GOOD, DEMOCRATIC ideas.  And always remember, the thesaurus is your friend.

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By Shenonymous, September 7, 2008 at 12:33 pm Link to this comment

So pleased you are able to nod to the higher mind, Folktruther.  It shows a glimmer of acumen.  Good bye

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By Folktruther, September 7, 2008 at 11:58 am Link to this comment

I really like your adjectives, Shenonymous.

Hedges indulges in REACTIONARY exaggerations.

Clinton destroyed welfare and the unions by convincing Gops with his GOOD DEMOCRATIC ideas.

The VAGUE claims, as you put it,  of Clinton’s administration’s rigging of economic statistics were analazed by Kevin Phillips and Paul Roberts, among other economic specialists.

My assertions were UNSUPPORTED.

My SLEEK evasions were STAGNANT.

My comments were too FEEBLE for your high intellectual standards.

If adjectives could do it, Shenonymous, you’d be right up their with Clinton, Obama and Biden.

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By Shenonymous, September 6, 2008 at 10:05 pm Link to this comment

Well let’s see Folktruther.  Hedges can always be trimmed and actually ought to to help them/him grow.  Since I am not a fan of the author of this article, I couldn’t care less what he thought as he is known for his reactionary exaggerations and misinformation.

If Clinton passed anything with the GOP support then he must have persuaded them with some damn good Democratic ideas. Far as rigging numbers, that is what you will have to prove since it is your vague claim.  The health bill was an issue but there will always be one or two that just can’t get passed with the consistently self-serving in-the-medical-industry-pocket GOP. 

If you think the Dems have sold out their rank and file, I suggest you review the video of the Democratic convention.  An increasing number of people (in droves really-try the Tallahassee Florida Baynews 9.com) are signing up with the Democratic party.  Everything you said was unsupported.  Just listen to the Pew Research Center report and Andy Kohut’s reports every night on the PBS News Hour; the statistics have been in favor of Obama and the Democrats even with the McInsane/Palin ticket! 

Your attempt at a slick evasion of the truth is stagnant.  There are better things to do than continue to scrap such a feeble commenter, so aloha.

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By Folktruther, September 6, 2008 at 7:40 pm Link to this comment

What’s unsupported, Shenonymous?

Did Clinton or did he not pass the welfare ‘reform’ bill with Gop support?

Did he or did he not pass Nafta with Gop support, to help destroy the unions?

Were the inflation numbers rigged during his administration or were they not, eroding the payouts of social security and pensions?

Did he or did he not back off the heath bill after the initial attempt?

Is Obiden or is he not a corporate Dem?

I assume that the Dems will do in the future what they have done in the past, and sell out their rank and file.  If that is a personal and private opinion it is not an unsupported one and is held by an increasing number of people.  Including Hedges.

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By cyrena, September 6, 2008 at 5:48 pm Link to this comment

•  “The POINT is, that, now that several people in the health care community, writers for TD, CD and others, have written articles concerning Sen. Obama’s “plan”. I wil leave it to you to read them and decide what you think. I would say that I do not think that they are highly complimentary.”

No KDelphi, the POINT is that you are out there in NeverNever Land, bouncing off of the flippin’ clouds or something.

What ‘writers’ are you talking about, and what health care community people are you talking about? Chris Hedges (who authored this piece) damn sure isn’t a health care professional, or part of the ‘health care community’. So who else??? We ALREADY KNOW that the real ‘health care community’ has been largely in favor of a single-payer system for ages, and we’re a whole hell of a lot closer to perpetrating THAT awareness than we were even 4 years ago. But it STILL isn’t gonna happen overnight.

Meantime, you’re a seriously late bloomer if you think any of this is new. We’ve been dealing with the health care issues and the atrocious fraud and greed of it all for YEARS on the local levels, and making some serious headway. In fact, here in southern California we’ve been able to come up with a pharma program that makes meds available for anybody, (regardless of whether or not they have medicare, or any other health coverage) for the same $4.00 co-pay that any person WITH medical coverage might have. In many cases of course, even people who do have current coverage still aren’t properly covered for drugs, INCLUDING life saving drugs. It’s local level coalition building that works for those so inclined to get off their asses to do something and get the stuff passed into the civil legislation of our political structure. So IOW, we haven’t waited on the crooks in DC to save us from the crimes they’re perpetrating against us.

Anyway, we’ve had a concerted effort in the works for over 4 years now, sponsored in part by just one organization of many, who actually DO something!!


http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/

Anyway, so you’re now sprouting off about these unnamed people of ‘health care communities’ that are supposedly weighing in on “Obama’s Plan” and how they aren’t very complimentary.

First question: Do YOU even *KNOW* what “Obama’s Plan” is YOURSELF???

I didn’t think so.

Never mind the rest of the questions.

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By Shenonymous, September 6, 2008 at 3:56 pm Link to this comment

I’m posting this at both TD and CD for KDelphi just to cover those two bases. 

Everybody is hearing you KDelphi or are you not reading the Truthdiggers and CommonDreamers at TD and on CD?  You might trying to channel your passion directly to Obama or McInsane.  Your reference to how the rest of the world feels about America is futile and a misguided effort on the topic of universal healthcare in America, single payer or not.  But of course you can spend your energy wherever and however you like on whatever you like.  Just trying to be helpful so that your tirades at least have some effective use.  Over and out on this topic.

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By Shenonymous, September 6, 2008 at 3:48 pm Link to this comment

Have we put you over the edge KDelphi?  You might be more specific, that is, if you can.  The shotgun effect only works in Texass where there are a lot of a**holes and the shooters are incabable of making any distinctions.

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By KDelphi, September 6, 2008 at 3:43 pm Link to this comment

Geez! You gusy are fuckin’ ridiculous! LOL!!!

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By Shenonymous, September 6, 2008 at 3:39 pm Link to this comment

New TD readers need to be very careful.  Folktruther always gives an unsupported personal scheme of things, private and subjective opinions calculated to try, pitiful as he does, to beef up the really vacant and desiccating programs of the Republicans.  His doubts do not amount to anything and ought to be taken with a half a grain of salt.

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By Folktruther, September 6, 2008 at 2:24 pm Link to this comment

You’ve got to understand, KDelphi,that the Dems are helping to DISMANTLE the New Deal reforms of Roosevelt. Clinton gutted welfare in the mid-ninties and passed Nafta which helped destroy the unions.  The economic statistics were rigged during hispresidency to erode the payouts of social security and pensions.  After his initial defeat on health care in 1992, he never went back to it.

It is this party that you are relying on to lead the passage of a health care bill.  It may happen but I doubt it.

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By KDelphi, September 6, 2008 at 1:06 pm Link to this comment

Sen Obama said (about a year ago) that he was “looking favorably ” at “HR676”. (Not MY words). About 6 mos ago, when the campaign was here, a spokesperson for the campaign, said that “he is stil looking at it”. About 2 wks. ago ( i didnt write down the date) someone from the campaign (there were Obama campaing workers here) said that he was “still looking at it”. The POINT is, that, now that several people in the health care community, writers for TD, CD and others, have written articles concerning Sen. Obama’s “plan”. I wil leave it to you to read them and decide what you think. I would say that I do not think that they are highly complimentary. I get emotional over this issue. I dont know why that would concern you so much, unless you think people are deciding how to vote by reading my posts. (lol)If you would prefer that I just not comment here—there are plenty of other places. I just didnt know that a small group of Obama suportes were allowed to dominate a forum and not call it, say, “Obama supporters site”.If you think my posts are “crazy” or “stupid”—laugh! Why keep bothering to write long essays telling me how wrong I am? I may not be able to put it like Chris Hedges, or other authors—but ai am obviously not alone in m criticism of theplan. THAT is what you should be worried about—not me and my scrawny ass vote.Since most of it is opinon (I dont post “facts”, for the most part), it’s subjective as to whether it’s is right or wrong.So is your opinoun of me, and mine of you.

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By cyrena, September 6, 2008 at 11:55 am Link to this comment

By KDelphi, September 6 at 9:09 am #
•  “I would suggest that anyone still convinced tha5t “single payer wont work” , pleasr check out the story on Common Dreams (The Doctor Orders) and see how the healthcare professional ssee it.”
KDelphi,

This isn’t new. So why don’t you stop with the straw man arguments. I can’t find a single post here from anyone claming that the single payer health plan wouldn’t work. That is NOT what anybody has been saying. And being from a family of health care professionals, I KNOW they are just as much in favor of such a plan as the people who need access to health care, and that would be ALL of us, at some point in time.

Again, for the purpose of exposing your straw man BS, nobody is opposing single payer health coverage, and Obama has explicitly stated that IF HE WERE SETTING UP SUCH A SYSTEM FROM SCRATCH, he would set it up AS A SINGLE PAYER SYSTEM!!

Since it has NOT been set up that way, it means working with the one you have to create and provide improvements. And part of that means setting up a system that can pave the way to something far closer to a single payer system. All of that has actually been addressed right here on this forum, and you’ve conveniently ignored it. You’ve conveniently ignored the posts from those who have reminded what Chris Hedges did not, which was the fact that Obama HAS proposed a medicare-type plan that people could in fact access, and might just eventually give way to something far better when the privates find themselves out of the ‘game’ in competition with the public sector. You don’t bother with anything like that KDelphi, ever. Too much logic for all of the emotionalism?

~~~~~~~

Tony Wicher,

Sorry I missed this post from you earlier:

By Tony Wicher, September 3 at 8:30 am #
cyrena,
So far I have not been able to find a single Obama quote either supporting or not supporting HR 676. If it’s a house resolution, how could he have voted on it before it passed the House? You’re a better scholar than me, cyrena - could you research this one? Thanks.
~~~~~

I can in fact look, except of course you’re right. If it’s a house resolution, he CAN’T have voted on it!! Still, I’ll look to see what I can find since those who are making the accusations obviously will never cite anything themselves. It’s just more of the same old shit. Like KDelphi inferring here, that anyone has claimed that a single payer system ‘won’t work’. NOBODY has claimed that…AT ALL!

Anyway, I’ll check it out when I get back. I’m still moving…and that has been one hell of a hardship, but I know it could be worse. At least I found a place to move to. Far too many others don’t even have that.

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By KDelphi, September 6, 2008 at 10:09 am Link to this comment

I would suggest that anyone still convinced tha5t “single payer wont work” , pleasr check out the story on Common Dreams (The Doctor Orders) and see how the healthcare professional ssee it. I rest my case. No health care—no vote. No health care—no vote.

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By Folktruther, September 5, 2008 at 8:19 pm Link to this comment

A comment somehow got lost, KDelphi.  I wanted to say that the only place there is a free market is in liberal economic textbooks.  National economies are managed markets.  But in the US the owners of the corporations were so powerful that they did not let the government develop an effective coordinating body, as occurs in European nations or even more so in China.  China’s form of capitalism is now growing four times fasters than those in the West.

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By cyrena, September 4, 2008 at 9:22 pm Link to this comment

By Folktruther, September 4 at 7:08 pm

•  “I agree with KDelphi, Cyrena, I don’t like you either.”

This is a good thing self-identified folktruther. You and KDelphi can agree with each and revel in the misery together. They say there’s someone for everyone out there. Are you both aware of the Private Message system that TD provides here, so that you can converse together, to your hearts content, and not have to deal with such spiteful and malicious people who expose you for what you are? I mean, if you didn’t put the IED’s out there in a public forum, then nobody would call you on them.

And of course we already KNOW, that I’m not the only one you’ve had run-ins with on this forum. In fact, you started off wrong, trying to shove your bullshit ideology down everybody else’s throat.

And you’re pissed because you’ve been an unsuccessful troll? Whose fault is that? You blasted in talking all kinds of partisan trash, pigeon-holing folks that you don’t know and can’t match wits with, into whatever categories you’ve made up in your own mind. Then you get your feelings hurt when you find yourself exposed for the non-substance that you represent, at least in most of what you portray via your posts.

The way you bitch and complain about the other posters here, one would think you were paying for your presence and not getting your money’s worth. Is someone holding a gun to your head and forcing you to participate on this forum? Or is this just the site you were assigned as part of the greater troll operation? Do you get paid by the word, or do you have to produce ‘converts’?

Seems to me like this site is a godsend for people like you and KDelphi. She gets a full spectrum of therapy, even as she complains about health care. Do you know how much a professional would charge her to listen to all of this whining? Same with you. Do you think any other publisher would actually put your crap out there with their names behind it? Of course not.

So what are you complaining about? You get to see your words in print, and think you’re real important, even if nobody else does.

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By KDelphi, September 4, 2008 at 9:00 pm Link to this comment

If the US had an ACTUAL “free market” (without all the govt subsidies for big oil, big agri-business, etc.) and there was sufficient estate taxes (so that these dumb basterds would never be admitted to Yale)and they werent born with silver spoons—half of the neo-cons would FALL RIGHT OFF any level playing field!Oh I’m sure Bush would have been pres. without his daddy and his Nazi grandpa, Prescott. Sure. If Bush, Cheney, Rummy,Kerry, etc. had to claw their way to the top—they would have died. So, its socialism for THEM and capitalism for all the rest of us. You Friedman guys are so ful of it—it is good that the world is finally waking up to how ridiculous your ideas are. Hear the “death rails”??

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By Folktruther, September 4, 2008 at 8:08 pm Link to this comment

I agree with KDelphi, Cyrena, I don’t like you either.  You appear to be a spiteful, malicious person who can’t disagree with someone without calling them a liar or their being dishonest.

This is the first site I’ve visited where the Dem pseudo-progressives were so meanspirited and had such a vulgar outlook.  I suppose as the Elite political consensus continues to right this will attract more and more of this kind of gutter debate, since the only defense of the indefensible is an ineffectual attempt at intimidation.

When Obiden is elected, as he probably will be, and progressives begin to understand that nothing is going to change for the better, they may break ideologically from the Dems.  But at that time progressives will be in a worse position, since the political interests for repression will have switched to the Dems, as it did during the Vietnam war.

At that point the thought control bill initiated by Jane Harman and the Zionists may well be passed, as it was alredy was in the house, with only three Dems voting against it.  In which case both the Gop and Dem Internet cites may well be dominated by the same kinds of people and the same kind of discourse.

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By Marshall, September 4, 2008 at 6:32 pm Link to this comment

By cilcsster, September 3 at 2:54 pm #

“Marshall, everything I’ve put on here about my case is true, it’s documented and can be verified!”

Cilcsster - I’m not questioning the facts of your case. I’m giving you the stats that describe the larger picture.

“In each country there are areas remote where health coverage will not be anything like in metro areas.”

It’s not just “remote areas” I’m talking about; it’s the amount of medical technology available per capita.  This leads to longer wait times because they can only serve a fixed number of patients in a given time.

“...in California, I was surviving on social security and could not afford any health insurance!”

I agree that the main problem in the U.S. is coverage.  But the problem isn’t as bad as people paint it, despite your specific situation.  The number of uninsured is definitely too high, but the solution isn’t putting it all under government control.  Just because something isn’t working as well as it should doesn’t mean it needs to be scrapped altogether.

“The tax cuts that Bush put thru are for the top 5% of the income scale, the lower income Americans get nothing.”

Liberal myth. The tax cuts lowered ALL tax brackets, and ALL taxpayers received rebates.  If your family makes less than about $25K in this country, you pay no federal income tax anyway, so naturally you wouldn’t receive a rebate.  That’s how a progressive tax system works, and it’s why the richest 1% already pay pay almost 40% of all taxes.

“Taxes are there for a reason, to help protect all Americans.”

History teaches us that governments don’t take care of people well.  People take care of themselves better if they’re given the means to do so, and a strong economy gives them that means; not government aid.  Obama will increase far more than beer and cig taxes; numerous taxes will have to increase to pay for his social programs, global warming initiatives, and a retooling of our health care system.  That’s the reason you’ve seen no actual numbers from him on how he’d pay for all this: because the reality would scare voters.

“Pass a bill that says no members of the American Government get any health care before ALL AMERICANS get health care!”

Then those govt. employees would never get covered, since 37% of all uninsured Americans live in households that make at least $50K but still choose NOT to own health insurance.  And 20% aren’t U.S. citizens.

“a person who rejects the science of biology, chemistry and physics for pie in the sky.  Could her ilk take on the challenge of developing life-saving drugs and foods for the betterment of the whole world?”

Luckily the free market and academia develop these things, not the vice president.  Your desire to increase govt. power (by restricting free market) only opens the door for more future govt. interference in these important endeavors.

“Just what the hell are her qualifications besides having children?”

Better than Obama’s… and she’s only the veep.  Obama’s never run anything, he’s never originated legislation that became law; he’s got little history but is big on “hope”.  Unfortunately the govt. doesn’t run on “hope”, it runs on action.

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By KDelphi, September 4, 2008 at 6:00 pm Link to this comment

If you find this fun—have at it. Youre not convincing anyone that isnt part of the"protect Obama at al costs” group. I dont want to play anymore, and I’m sure as hell not going to read those long posts.You need to do something besides teach 24/7. Yep , thats personal. Yep saying I’m crazy or stupid will erally win me over. I just dont understand your purpose.-Lets just ignore each other from now on. When you say “we”’ , by the way, who do you mean? Do you guys own this site or something? Because you seem to be of th imperssion that you do. Youre insulting, and youre, youre smart. But I just dont like you.I think youre sharp tongued, adn you delight in proving other people wrong,( or at least “catxchihng something” NO matter what—if you can play “gotcha ya” its your biggest joy in life.I will nevefr understand why my opinion became so impt to you—you dont seem to think much of me.I wish you would uise your considerable skills for a more useful purpose. Go talk to somebody who gives a damn wht you think now.

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By cyrena, September 4, 2008 at 5:43 pm Link to this comment

1 of 2
Oh KDelphi,

The irony/paradox is indeed so very cruel. There is no doubt in my mind, that you’re intentions are overwhelmingly good and worthy. You just don’t ‘get’ much. Sometimes you appear to, and then, you don’t.

You see, I honestly DO pay attention to what you say in these posts, and you consistently contradict yourself, time after time after time. And guess what? That’s JUST FINE…at least in *my* book, it’s a GOOD thing! Or, at least it SHOULD be a good thing, if it allows you to examine those contradictions to get to a fuller understanding of your own beliefs and personal ideology, in context with the reality of the rest of the world. Problem is, your posts at least, don’t really give any indication that you’ve utilized the process to that end.

So there is a very cruel irony in nearly everything you post, because your comprehension/perception/interpretation of the input from others is ‘off’

Like this:

•  “…My profs. taught me to think for myuself, and I will continue to do that. When they thought I was wrong, they heard me out, then explained…”

One of many cruel ironies here. You are totally oblivious to the fact that many people on this forum, (myself included) have done (or attempted to to), EXACTLY THE SAME THING that you credit your professors with. Hearing you out, EXPLAINING when they thing you’re wrong, (or in my case, not even calling it ‘wrong’ but just providing further context and information that might help you to continue the development of your ‘thinking for yourself) and you don’t get it. Instead, you call it an ‘attack’ and a personal attack at that!

Then this:

•  “…cyrena, I have tried to keep this impersonal, I do not attack you directly.”

KDel…the LAST thing you’ve done, is to keep anything on this board IMPERSONAL. You’ve made it about as PERSONAL as it gets, making it all about YOU, ALL of the time. If somebody was reading through these blogs for the first time they’d see yours and think this was some sort of an on-line self-help therapy session. And while that is acceptable enough, TO A DEGREE, you very personal ideology in such a stand alone posture simply is not relevant to the larger picture. So in that respect, your opinion DOESN’T matter to me. It ONLY matters to the degree that I actually CARE about the individual, because the ‘individual’ is also a member of the group of all of us.

The problem (or one of the many) is that in operating from your own (selfish) center of reference, you make ASSUMPTIONS, about the whole, and from your posts, we see that your assumptions are always wrong.

For instance, in this very post, you go on and on about you and your social work, as if I had somehow dismissed or otherwise made such work appear to be ‘insignificant’, when in fact I’ve spent the entirety of my life doing probably more SOCIAL WORK than your limited imagination could even conceive. I’ve spent my life IN THE SERVICE OF my fellow human being, regardless of their race, creed, ethnicity, nationality, class, gender, ideology or political persuasion. And I’ve done it because I’ve CHOSEN to do it. Were that NOT the case, I wouldn’t be spending (and seemingly WASTING) my time communicating with YOU!!

For you to suggest that my own reactions/responses to you would somehow be different if you were supportive of Obama is an insult to my intelligence, and a display of just how shallow you are yourself, even ABOUT yourself.

And no KDel, my responses to you are not a matter of anger. That’s not to say that I don’t get pissed off about a lot of things, especially in these times that we’re all at least attempting to live in. But don’t presume the arrogance of the position that I am ‘angry’ with you, or even ‘attacking’ you. If nothing more, I have a great deal of empathy for you, and it would be more than fair to say that I do experience a great deal of frustration when I observe or otherwise perceive any group or individual involved in self-sabotage.

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By cyrena, September 4, 2008 at 5:38 pm Link to this comment

Part 2 of 2 KDelphi

On an *entirely* UNrelated matter, I don’t much give a shit WHO you vote for. Seriously..I don’t. If I believed that your one vote could or would make the difference between the continued misery of another 4 years of McCain and the opportunity to stop the destruction, and change the direction, I might. Since that isn’t the case, it doesn’t matter. But your opinions do matter to you, as well as to anyone else who might be affected by them. So I respect them for what they mean to you.

However, I’ll continue to call you on anything that you present on a public forum that I know to be a falsehood, or a lie. As a general rule, you manage to avoid putting any obvious lies out there, because nearly everything you say is couched in personal opinion, because it’s always about…YOU. So you avoid (for the most part at least) presenting your opinion as fact. If you do though, I’ll call you on it, and it won’t be because I’m ‘angry’. It’ll just be because I’m committed to truth and reality; no surprises there, for anyone who reads through these posts.

And now my friend, I’m off to do some more of my social work. Here’s the basic model for that. I sit or stand around with a bunch of other humanists, and we bitch and lament, and piss and moan about how jacked-up things are. And then we do a little brainstorming, to see if we can come up with some ideas that might provide both immediate and long term solutions. And then, we ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING.  The do something stage for today’s menu requires that I catch the next bus downtown, where there are some folks at a homeless shelter, waiting on me to bring some much needed supplies that I’ve managed to collect from around the ‘hood here. Now if you wanna donate, I need a new ‘old lady’ cart to push the stuff around in, since the current one is on it’s very last wheel.

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Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, September 4, 2008 at 4:25 pm Link to this comment

By suziekidder, September 4 at 11:25 am #


Calm down.  None of us needs to worry about Obama’s stated policy for healthcare reform.  The legislation for same will not come out of the White House, but more likely out of Ted Kennedy’s office.  And, do any of us really believe that Obama would veto Teddy’s bill? 

I predict that we’ll have single-payer, universal healthcare within the 1st two years of Obama’s first administration.  (I know, from my lips to God’s ears ...)
—————————————————————————-
Suzie,

That’s the kind of optimism I like to hear right now! Obama really does represent the people and gets his power from the people. That means that the magnitude of whatever changes he can make are proportional to the number and activity of his supporters, the people. He can’t bring about single payer without very substantial help from many others. We need a congress that will pass single-payer before Obama can sign it. Of course he won’t veto it if Congress passes it. He would be overjoyed to be able to do such a thing. Another encouraging sign is that individual states such as California may start doing single-payer on the state level. This should create a lot of momentum on the federal level.

This is no time for negativity. This is the time to hope for the best, not fear the worst.“We have nothing to fear but fear itself” - FDR.

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By Tony Wicher, September 4, 2008 at 4:25 pm Link to this comment

By suziekidder, September 4 at 11:25 am #


Calm down.  None of us needs to worry about Obama’s stated policy for healthcare reform.  The legislation for same will not come out of the White House, but more likely out of Ted Kennedy’s office.  And, do any of us really believe that Obama would veto Teddy’s bill? 

I predict that we’ll have single-payer, universal healthcare within the 1st two years of Obama’s first administration.  (I know, from my lips to God’s ears ...)
—————————————————————————-
Suzie,

That’s the kind of optimism I like to hear right now! Obama really does represent the people and gets his power from the people. That means that the magnitude of whatever changes he can make are proportional to the number and activity of his supporters, the people. He can’t bring about single payer without very substantial help from many others. We need a congress that will pass single-payer before Obama can sign it. Of course he won’t veto it if Congress passes it. He would be overjoyed to be able to do such a thing. Another encouraging sign is that individual states such as California may start doing single-payer on the state level. This should create a lot of momentum on the federal level.

This is no time for negativity. This is the time to hope for the best, not fear the worst.“We have nothing to fear but fear itself” - FDR.

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By Tony Wicher, September 4, 2008 at 4:25 pm Link to this comment

By suziekidder, September 4 at 11:25 am #


Calm down.  None of us needs to worry about Obama’s stated policy for healthcare reform.  The legislation for same will not come out of the White House, but more likely out of Ted Kennedy’s office.  And, do any of us really believe that Obama would veto Teddy’s bill? 

I predict that we’ll have single-payer, universal healthcare within the 1st two years of Obama’s first administration.  (I know, from my lips to God’s ears ...)
—————————————————————————-
Suzie,

That’s the kind of optimism I like to hear right now! Obama really does represent the people and gets his power from the people. That means that the magnitude of whatever changes he can make are proportional to the number and activity of his supporters, the people. He can’t bring about single payer without very substantial help from many others. We need a congress that will pass single-payer before Obama can sign it. Of course he won’t veto it if Congress passes it. He would be overjoyed to be able to do such a thing. Another encouraging sign is that individual states such as California may start doing single-payer on the state level. This should create a lot of momentum on the federal level.

This is no time for negativity. This is the time to hope for the best, not fear the worst.“We have nothing to fear but fear itself” - FDR.

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By KDelphi, September 4, 2008 at 3:37 pm Link to this comment

Good point about the paragraphs. I’ll try, as one not taught on word processors. Thanks

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By KDelphi, September 4, 2008 at 3:18 pm Link to this comment

She—thanks for your kind post. I dont really remember us disagreeing—maybe we have. I have memory prob sometimes. I do not mean to harp on my health prob. I just get in discussions with people who do not realize how bad it really is out here! And it is certainly not just me. I know dozens of people who should REALLY get a checkup (20 yrs), get dentures , their baby has cold/pneumonia/who knows? I am SO tierd of having friends die, do without, and dread the future for myself adn friends.I have some “rough ‘old friends”! LOL               I finished college, but I did alot of other things first! Some of it I regret, most I dont. But I cannot/should not put it behind me.I believe that it is strongly immoral to let people die because rich people dont want to pay taxes.I get angry, I cry—but I simply cannot give up. The lady I helped a friend bury the other day, who comitted suicide for lack of a hospice (morphine), I swore over her grave, I would put my “social worker hat” back on and start trying to do something again about health care.                              BTW, peeps,—being a social worker may mean you are ‘stupid” to some—you dont make much—but, it is just as hard to get an MS insocial work as anything else. I paid off my student loans. I worked like hell. And when I needed Medicaid, the govt TOOK my PERS (pension) EVERY PENNY!Why should I NOT be upset? My family has spent almost $350,000 this year and that was ALL we HAD! Theres a little more from my sis , who teaches at SUNY/Purchase—but you ,now how much she makes! Most people do not have even THAT back up!Anyway—I’m whining here. I just want some help!! And not just for me!! Please, if you care. We just have to do this. Period.

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By Shenonymous, September 4, 2008 at 3:01 pm Link to this comment

KDelphi, I really am sorry if I’ve pissed you off so much in the past.  We’ve had our arguments, but I think they have been civil.  I have been listening to your pleas for a long time and I hear you loud and clear and I completely sympathize that you do not have enough to take care of your medical expenses.  There are those of us (even though you may not think I do, I do!) who care about folks like you, and there are plenty of them out there.  I am a retired prof gone back to work!  I have fairly decent coverage, but who knows if it will endure?  My meds still cost a lot in spite of the insurance but nothing like what you are going through and a few others I know.  The rest of us who care are doing everything we can to change the situation. 

There are also those out there who do not agree that help should be given and those are the Republicans.  You should not ever have to consider leaving this country.  It is unconscionable.  It is a travesty.  This is your home!  Something will be done, but it might not be to the degree that will suit you completely because everything has to be negotiated, but something is going to be done.  Single payer is the best plan but it might not happen exactly that way.  We all who can will fight for a universal health care plan in the ways we can.  But we are going to have to have a Democratic congress to get any decent bill passed and a Democratic president who will sign the bill.  It will not get done otherwise, it is a predictable fact.

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By KDelphi, September 4, 2008 at 2:47 pm Link to this comment

I cannot afford to leave the country. My house would sel for NOTHING!

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By KDelphi, September 4, 2008 at 2:38 pm Link to this comment

Saw SICKO—I LIVE SICKO, Try a Medicadi HMO for about 10 yrs. You’ll be a complete mess. I dont “use everything I can get”—because you cannot get anything!(For profit HMOs have no busines in publicly funded services—they do NOT save $$—they just cut services)I actually tried to convince my comgresspeople that the HMO was wasting $$ by advertising—I sent them the 2 boxes of pretty color brochures they sent me—complete with “model” lookin drs. and nurses, adn asked if I could NOT have these leaflets, and PLEASE have my prescriptions—most of which i have been taking for years. I got no response. Ohio Atty. Gen.‘s Office either.As long as taxpyers THINK they are saving $$ , the rep. dont care.Some of this is very strange to me—once you got it, you get everything you can, but you dont want anyone else to?? When they did not pass SCHIP, a guy said to me, “I have 3 kids and I’m on SCHIP, and I dont think we should expand it cause we cant afford it”. !!!!!!!!!!!!HA!

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By sharonsj, September 4, 2008 at 1:47 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Instead of personal attacks, how about some personal experience?  I paid for health insurance when I was employed and continued to do so when self-employed.  But a series of business reversals and declining health used up all my savings to the point where I could not afford health insurance.  I haven’t had any for six years.  Despite a laundry list of limitations, the government told me that being disabled did not entitle me to Social Security Disability.  And despite living on $8,000 a year after paying taxes, I was deemed too rich for assistance.  I am now 65 and eligible for Medicare.  Of course I am a mess and need repair, for which the government now has to foot the bill.  For want of a series of shots costing about $1000, the government will now have to pay tens of thousands to replace my various joints.  Since I thwarted the mostly Republican hope that I would die and save them money, rest assured I will now accept every test and drug offered at government expense.  I guess this makes sense to the morons who think helping people is Socialism, but not to anyone else.  And if you need further explanations, watch Michael Moore’s SICKO.  You’ll want to pack up and leave the country.

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By KDelphi, September 4, 2008 at 1:25 pm Link to this comment

cyrena, I have tried to keep this impersonal, I do not attack you directly. I even like you—but, when you get angry, your attacks just make you look cruel. Why not attack socialism, if you think it is wrong? Because i am an easy target. Its very unbecoming.I have a very uncomfortable feeling that, if I had been an Obamas supporter, all the way, from day one, that you would not be attacking me every time you disagree. I have no idea why my opinion is so important to you. Lets call a truce on this one. I am NOT goin gto change my mind about the things I’ve stated. I MAY change my minds if it looks like McSame could win—but that will be MY mind, something that seems to be lacking, even when people post massive links and quotations. (I am NOT talking about you , cyrena ) Their computer skills, grammer, and spelling are perfect—butther is no heart. The whole US seems lacking it these days.. But I’m not afraid of swimming against the tide either. YOu can hurt my feeling—but,I did just fine—better than fine=-=-when I finaly got to college. My profs. taught me to think for myuself, and I will continue to do that. When they thought I was wrong, they heard me out, then explained.Social workers are an easy target , too, aren’t they? Yes, they work with the people society has abandoned. It makes me poor, but I wouldnt give up what I’ve learned from people on the street for anything. Why in the world would I abandon my strong feelings about social matters now, when , I feel, the uS needs freethinkers more than it ever has. Now, THAT would be stupid.

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By Folktruther, September 4, 2008 at 1:10 pm Link to this comment

Hang in there, KDelphi, I’m a high school dropout too.  Unfortunately I dropped out to enter the U of Chicago where it took me decades to unlearn the Elitist crap they taught me.  And you don’t have to be smart to know that you are being screwed. 

I was smart enough when I was young but, like everyone else, I’ve gotten dumber and dumber as I’ve gotten older and older. But it is not intelligence that is most lacking in the American people, it’s courage.  You have guts, KDelphi, and that is what is most needed in the comming period of repression.

May I suggest that you write your posts in paragraphs?  A lot of people find a mass of print off-puting.  Tell your truths a few sentences at a time then skip a line.

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By cyrena, September 4, 2008 at 11:51 am Link to this comment

y KDelphi, September 4 at 7:54 am

” I also do not like being lectured—my sister is a prof and she does the same thing to me—when people treat me like i’m stupid (beinga high school drop out and all, even tho I went back), I just tune it out!”

~~~~~~

YOUR words KDelphi…and YOUR words say it all. (as you’ve already managed in multiple previous posts.)

As you say, “you just TUNE IT OUT!!” And that benefits -you- , exactly….HOW?????

There’s no way that anybody can ‘treat you like you’re stupid’ (and intelligence has nothing to do with levels of education) unless YOU think you’re stupid!

I don’t think you’re ‘stupid’, but you sure do have some serious ‘issues’, and ‘tuning-out’ in the way that you reference it, doesn’t help you. You clearly aren’t adding to any ‘socialist’ effort in terms of this forum either…rather, just the opposite. More like a drain, or the ‘problem child’ in any given social structure.

The standard ‘you’ formula or ‘Type-YOU’ personality. It’s all you, all the time. That only works for a while. Then even the most generous of kindred spirits get tired and simply blow you off.

You say you used to be a social worker. (I’m not surprised, I have a former who is a social worker…has more issues than the New York Times). But, since you were, don’t you know of any resources you could tap into there for counseling services?

Just a thought. I think you’ve worked this well dry.

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By KDelphi, September 4, 2008 at 9:54 am Link to this comment

Sorry—but Obama himself, says that, even the limited reform he wants to make in health care will “Prob not be accomplished in his first term”.John Conyers already has a bill (HR 676) that would, basically be, Medicare for all . I wish Obama would get behind that! The last time I asked teh campaign (2 yrs ago and 6 mos ago and 2 wks ago) he was still “looking upon it favorably”.

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By Tony Wicher, September 4, 2008 at 9:27 am Link to this comment

By KDelphi, September 4 at 7:57 am #


btw—I watched Palin’s pseech—or as much of it as I could stand-this AM. I stil hate the sexist attacks (wil she bbe able to care for ...blah—would they ask that of a man??NO!), but I saw her 1)use her child—that baby is young and should have ben in bed and 2) she just acts like an atack dog. I dont think you have to worry about women voting for McSame because of her—I was never planning to. I was just cutting her slack until I heard fro her, as I was tired of the misogyny. Now, I just hate her as a perons.
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If you think you hate her, you should hear my ex-wife! She says 80% of women can see right through this phony.

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By suziekidder, September 4, 2008 at 9:25 am Link to this comment

Calm down.  None of us needs to worry about Obama’s stated policy for healthcare reform.  The legislation for same will not come out of the White House, but more likely out of Ted Kennedy’s office.  And, do any of us really believe that Obama would veto Teddy’s bill? 

I predict that we’ll have single-payer, universal healthcare within the 1st two years of Obama’s first administration.  (I know, from my lips to God’s ears ...) 

The structure of the plan we will end up designing isn’t clear yet - and it won’t be until the insurance and drug industries are forced to realize that it’s happening with or without them and Harry and Louise won’t work this time around.  If McCain is elected - we’re screwed.  If Obama is elected - God are you listening? - then we get healthcare in this country.

And no plan on the table as yet would do what it will take - there are holes, misplaced incentives, and “devil in the details” in all of them.  I’ve worked healthcare for a couple of decades - and there’s one area that’s working very well indeed.  Integrative Medicine, Functional Medicine and Environmental Medicine are successfully treating the kinds of complex chronic illnesses on which we’re spending 70 to 75% of our annual healthcare budget - without making a serious dent in the incidence of these diseases or the pain experienced by those who suffer from them. 

H.R. 676 isn’t what we need in this country - it’s universal care but the medical model “covered” is too narrow and there’s no room for responsible physician/patient driven innovation.  We need to look more carefully at what worked in the 50’s and 60’s that we’ve designed out of our mainstream system, i.e. the relationship we used to have with our physicians, and at how to harness the capacity for responsible innovation in this country of which we’re legitimately proud.  There are areas of “positive deviance” in our healthcare system - and we need to look at these with a view towards incorporating their lessons into the mainstream system we’re proposing to design. 

I’d love to discuss specifics with anyone who’s interested - .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

We have a fabulous “adventure” in front of us - a chance to reeinvent the ways in which we heal and to leave a “healthy” healthcare system as a gift to our children .... not to mention all of us.

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By KDelphi, September 4, 2008 at 8:57 am Link to this comment

btw—I watched Palin’s pseech—or as much of it as I could stand-this AM. I stil hate the sexist attacks (wil she bbe able to care for ...blah—would they ask that of a man??NO!), but I saw her 1)use her child—that baby is young and should have ben in bed and 2) she just acts like an atack dog. I dont think you have to worry about women voting for McSame because of her—I was never planning to. I was just cutting her slack until I heard fro her, as I was tired of the misogyny. Now, I just hate her as a perons.

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By KDelphi, September 4, 2008 at 8:54 am Link to this comment

I am not saying I BLAME Obama—he just does nothing to refute what they are doing! I also do not like being lectured—my sister is a prof and she does the same thing to me—when people treat me like i’m stupid (beinga high school drop out and all, even tho I went back), I just tune it out!I am NOT a “liberal”—I am a Socialist—a patty that exists within the political ssystems of every major , free pwoer in the world, except the uS. Why? Because Ams are TERRIFIED of “Communism” which they equare with “:socialism”—because many of them have no idea what it is, or they look at China or former USSR and conclude that it is “pure capitalism” or a “communist dictatorship” (a contradiction in terms all by itself!)Living by the Chicago Skool—Friedman, Rand, is a good way to die if you are poor.I am reg. as a Dem. Was all my life (despite being raiseed gOP), until I became a member of SP-USA about 10 yrs ago. We were still allowed to be reg. and vote as we chose.In 2000, my brother in law, who went to school with W, let me know what we wers in for—plus I liked Gore on global climate change. The election was stolen, so , alot of good it did. In 2004, I LEFT SP-USA, because they passed a motion that you cannot be reg as a Dem and asn SP-USA—I wanted w out so badly.Stolen again. (No faN of Kerry’s here—how do we alwasy end up with these blue bloods! Still, better than w)I am growing tired, once again, of “better than”. I worked with moveon.org in 2006 (as well as 2004)—MANY votes werw stolen in OHio—DNC does NOTHING! OH, I think they had a hearing—a BUNCH of them , prob and they have the balls to do NOTHING! I try to keep an open mind about it—Obama’s supporters seem to have forgotten Psych 101—what they are doing is a good way to turn people off. An open mind—but not so much that my brains fall out.

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By Folktruther, September 4, 2008 at 8:45 am Link to this comment

The center that Obiden is going for, Cyrena, is not the center of the population consensus, but the center of the ruling class consensus that finances and supports him in the media.  From the population’s point of view, this is the Dem equivilent of the Gop neocon consensus.

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By cyrena, September 3, 2008 at 9:52 pm Link to this comment

KDelphi,

Here’s my point…re-read your words here, and I’ll try to explain it again

•  “I have explained a million tiems that I have prob with alot of Obama’s centrist stuff—but the one I just cannot get past—is the health care issue.”

Do you have any understanding of what you’re actually saying here? What I’ve been trying to explain for about a million times as well, it that the health care issue that you cannot get past, is NOT OBAMA’S CENTRIST STUFF!

Why can you not GET THAT? Let me explain this again. Barack Obama is not the president yet. Barack Obama is NOT ‘corporate America’ no matter how much you wanna make him be that, just because you’re suffering the same misery as the rest of the country. (and you’re right, the woman who killed herself because she couldn’t get into a hospice is one of several million. Our streets are full of them, and our veterans are taking their lives by the dozens per week, all over the country. Check in with Purple Wolf…there is probably at least one funeral per month in her town of Flint MI, which is just as dead and dying as your Ohio, and has been for nearly two decades). The homeless are filling up the streets of my community as well, and I’ve actually tried to assist in a very small way, by joining with other likeminded citizens, because we know that we can hardly expect the very regime that put us in this misery, to get us out.

Again, this didn’t happen overnight KDelphi, and Barack Obama, Senator for less than 4 years, is simply not the reason for it, centrist or not. That is the point that I keep making to you KDelphi, and the one that you obviously keep missing. You are reacting to anything that comes from Obama as if he is THE INCUMBANT. He’s NOT! Do you not get that? The repiglicans (and they are RADICAL as opposed to the ‘centrist’ that you complain Obama is) are the ones running this on-going destruction KDelphi. The repiglicans have have control of Congress for the 16 years prior to 2006, when the dems gained this teesy tiny and mostly meaningless majority.

You’ve also proven via your posts, that you really haven’t a clue to the concepts of right/left/center, because such positions no longer even exist in the political environment of today. Even Conservative and Liberal have lost any former meaning, because no one can even begin to think of the current administrative gangsters as ‘conservative’. They are radical as hell. True ‘conservatives’ and yes…centrists, have some sense of what the Constitution is, and these thugs have destroyed it.

The point that I’ve been trying to make with you, is that you are blaming the wrong entity. The disaster that you are trying to survive; that we are ALL trying to survive, is NOT about Obama or what you call his ‘centrism’. What Barack Obama represents is the first sign in nearly a decade, of returning some sense of BALANCE to this thing we call a democracy or at least a republic. BALANCE KDelphi. Start repeating it in your mind like a mantra. When things are out of balance, whether they be to the extreme right, or the extreme left, or the extreme ANYTHING, they CRASH.

When the body is out of balance, it crashes, and often fatally. When an airplane is out of balance, the same thing can happen. When anything is out of balance, it is subject to fatal consequences. When we attempt to balance things, we look to the CENTER of gravity or whatever else the CENTER represents. The CENTER is the most STABLE location of any entity.

Now go think on that for a while. And while you’re at it, keep in mind that Barack Obama isn’t the president, and he isn’t part of the administration, and this thing we’re dealing with, isn’t about HIM, or wherever he happens to be situated on any issue. He didn’t break it, and he can’t wave a magical wand to fix it. Whining doesn’t help either.

http://www.newbeginningscounselingcenter.org/

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By Tony Wicher, September 3, 2008 at 9:25 pm Link to this comment

Re KDelphi, September 3 at 3:29 pm #

Goin to that funeral the other day, where the lady killed herself because she could not get into Hospice (and ther is a million more stories like that)—its just too much for me! I find it unbelievable.
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Yeah, but didn’t this happen under the current Republican administration? Why blame Obama and the Democrats? There’s no equaivalence here. Democrats have been trying to get some kind of universal medical care since Hillary in 1992. Republicans blocked them all along.

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By KDelphi, September 3, 2008 at 4:29 pm Link to this comment

cyrena, you really need to calm down and not take this so personally. you know that if it was JUST MY vote you were worried about—there would be no prob.Liberal groups are scraming about Obama going right on issues in droves. That si something HE should be aware—and perhaps—do something about!MY vote is NOT your prob. (and I sincerly doubt if anyone is following my lead!) I have explained a million tiems that I have prob with alot of Obama’s centrist stuff—but the one I just cannot get past—is the health care issue. I am SOOO tired of bein g the only civilized country without it, that all excuses sound like bullshit to me, and I have to conclude taht it is all about $$—of course it is, or we would all have it. And I think , that way BEFROE this stage of the game—that that is IMMORAL> I’m not even asking him to back “nationalized, universal”. WHY do people act like Conyers bill has “no chance”? I think that pel.le dont realize how bad it is out here—I may change my mind (if he does—i certainly will!) But I think Dem,s have abadoned liberals, not the other way around. Goin to that funeral the other day, where the lady killed herself because she could not get into Hospice (and ther is a million more stories like that)—its just too much for me! I find it unbelievable.

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By cyrena, September 3, 2008 at 4:04 pm Link to this comment

KDelphi,

Anyone following this forum for any period of time would have figured out long ago, that Marshall is NOT ‘one of us’. If Marshall is ‘middle class’ it is only by GOP standards, (5 million or so a year, give or take). He’s pro war, pro MIC, pro-Corp, pro tax-cuts for the wealthiest among us, pro-everything that is GOP and what the current gangster regime stands for. So OF course he has an excellent health care plan. When he complained that the Canadian health care system wasn’t all it claimed to be by citing what were sometimes up to 4-hour waits at the emergency room, THAT should have provided further proof that Marshall doesn’t exist in the same realities that the rest of us do. A 4-hour wait at 85% of California’s emergency rooms would have the patient feeling like a lottery winner. The standard is 6 to 8, for those without insurance in urban areas, or ANY county facilities. (where they still exist) Now Marshall probably zips over to Cedar Sinai or UCLA in a pinch, where he can call ahead and have the medical team standing by, probably via ambulance, since I’m sure HIS health plan covers that as well. So, don’t even figure anything that Marshall comes up with into your arguments. It isn’t the reality that the rest of us live with, and Marshall lives in fear that any change or improvement to OUR reality, is going to jeopardize his own privileged status. An Obama administration is a nightmare for those (like Marshall) who have fared so extremely well in this era of the ever widening split between the elite and ‘rest of us’ as that gap between the haves and the have nots has widened more than it has ever been since the Great Depression. (it’s actually worse now than then)

Now you say this:

•  “If Obama dose NOT com eup with a better helah care plan (which AlterNet, Common Dreams, and the article on TD—are all criticizing—he wil lose alot of working class votes. SP-USA originally encdorsed him—not now. YOu guys wont listen you’ll lose, then you’ll blame someone else.”

Get a grip KDelphi. What can you possibly be THINKING? All of these sites can criticize the Obama health care plan all they want, because I’ve yet to hear ANYONE claim it to be perfect, or even pretty good. We all know it could be far better.

But, how insane does it sound for you to actually say that he will lose a lot of ‘working class votes’ if he doesn’t come up with something better. WHO THE HELL ARE THE WORKING CLASS GONNA VOTE FOR *INSTEAD*???????

Does McCain have a BETTER PLAN? DOES ANYBODY have a better plan? Are you crazy?????

In case you haven’t noticed KDelphi, John McCain doesn’t HAVE a plan for the working class, or the middle class, which doesn’t exist by the way, because you are correct, you and you family will unlikely ever be middle class again.

You talk about ‘blame’ and I just have to wonder for the umpteeth time, just how seriously your sense to historical perception has been compromised by the PTSD that so many of us are suffering. After that long and horrifically sad story of your sister’s ills, (which she shares with at least a third of the US population) you now wanna start looking for FUTURE administrations to BLAME? HOW THE HELL DO YOU THINK THINGS GOT THIS WAY KDELPHI?

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By cilcsster, September 3, 2008 at 3:54 pm Link to this comment

Marshall, everything I’ve put on here about my case is true, it’s documented and can be verified!  In Canada there are slightly more than 2.3 people per sq. km.  In the USA the figure is 10 times that.  In each country there are areas remote where health coverage will not be anything like in metro areas.
When I lived in California, I was surviving on social security and could not afford any health insurance! What are they doing down there for people like that?  NOTHING!
Of course nothing is free.  The tax cuts that Bush put thru are for the top 5% of the income scale, the lower income Americans get nothing.  Obama says he will change that.
People are so hung up on greed that the word ‘tax’ has become a no no.  Taxes are there for a reason, to help protect all Americans.  So your beer, cigs, and booze are a lot more.  SO WHAT!  What have these things ever done for public health?  Double the prices, put the money into a health tax THAT ALL AMERICANS PAY, and cover the nation for health care!
Pass a bill that says no members of the American Government get any health care before ALL AMERICANS get health care!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  What is happening down there, has the nation turned into a bunch of wimps? Now they are running this ‘creationist’ for a VP.  Do you know what that means?  That is a person who rejects the science of biology, chemistry and physics for pie in the sky.  Could her ilk take on the challenge of developing life-saving drugs and foods for the betterment of the whole world?  Of course not!  Just what the hell are her qualifications besides having children?  She is under investigation that is being delayed by McCain and his friends.  If this justice?  Of course not!  Palin’s church is keeping their flock dumbbed down…they don’t know the difference, they reject science, they are a danger to Americans.  She is suppose to represent ALL American, not just evangelicals, but she won’t, she will push her churches agenda.

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By KDelphi, September 3, 2008 at 3:01 pm Link to this comment

Marshall—just as I suspected—you must have an excellent health care plan and/or be in excellent health—you are fortunate. Others are not. Insurance would NOT have covered everything—my sister in DC pays $12,500 a yr. for privte insurance. She was diag with breast cancer—they left her with over $200,000 in bills the first year! NOW they STILL wont pay for her chemo!!, mammograms, etc.BUT, she has to keep it, as she works for herself, doesnt make enough to take Obama’s’ tax deduction, and may have a re-ocurrence—although she is 7 yrs out. My family had to pay for it all, and, along with my bills, my fanily will never be middle class again! If I lived anywhere else inthe free world this would never have hapened.If Obama dose NOT com eup with a better helah care plan (which AlterNet, Common Dreams, and the article on TD—are all criticizing—he wil lose alot of working class votes. SP-USA originally encdorsed him—not now. YOu guys wont listen you’ll lose, then you’ll blame someone else.

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By Marshall, September 3, 2008 at 2:45 pm Link to this comment

By cilcsster, September 2 at 3:36 pm #

“Do me a favor…add all this up and tell me what the out-of-pocket expenses would be in The State of California.”

If you had a health insurance policy, then I imagine it would be nothing out of pocket; just as it was in Canada.  Why do you compare an uninsured person in CA to a Canadian resident?  Most in the U.S. have health insurance.

“I waited to get a room for several hours.  Was it worth it?  Sort of a silly question isn’t it.”

Not if it had been a surgery you were waiting for: In 2007, average wait time (from referral to procedure) for surgeries in Canada was 18.3 weeks, with Ontario (your fair province) being the best at 15 weeks.

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2007/10/surgery-wait-times-in-canada-hit-record.html

Note that this link simply summarizes a Canadian report from the Fraser Institute which you can view from the link on that page.

“Canadians are not forced to go anywhere for medical care”

You misinterpreted my statement.  I meant that they choose to go to the U.S. because the wait times in Canada are so long (as shown above).

Not a lot for you to argue with here since I’m showing you actual statistics, as compared to your hypotheticals and anecdotes.

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By Noah, September 3, 2008 at 2:41 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Obama is actually just McCain in disguise.  He talks in a different way, more soft, more personable, but his stances and voting record are just as lethal as McCain’s.  I actually think even less of Obama than I do of McCain, because Obama is convincing the portion of the American public that has a conscience to support unconscionable policies (like the Iraq war).  Instead of openly promoting violence and destruction, Obama persuades people that violence is peace, that corporate fascism is social security.  He is far more dangerous than McCain for this reason.

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By Shenonymous, September 3, 2008 at 10:08 am Link to this comment

Asking if women and children still go first seems to be saying you want to go first, Leefeller?  Don’t worry about women and children.  The rational women will levitate enough to keep the children safe given that the men drilled the holes in the boat.  Oh, that religious freak Palin can drown with the guys and we wouldn’t have to listen to her evangelical shrilling for the next few months. 

You gots what you gots, jake3988.  Ah do baleeve Barack has ‘wildly’ been against the Iraq War, or have you not been listening. And I have not heard him say he was ‘against’ gay marriage.  I suggest the July 1, 2008 Carpetbaggers report at http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/16058.html on Obama’s position on gay marriage.  He does flip flop on marijuana, no excuse for that, he is a politician not a god.  But then if you look at the gods in the different abrahamic religions, he flip flops too.  Oh well.  Sigh.  Can’t have everything.  Since marijuana will survive even without Obama’s support (it’s been around for four decades at least or haven’t you noticed?) I’ll still go with the guy.

For anybody that is interested in HR 676 try http://www.hr676.org/

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By Tony Wicher, September 3, 2008 at 9:30 am Link to this comment

cyrena,

So far I have not been able to find a single Obama quote either supporting or not supporting HR 676. If it’s a house resolution, how could he have voted on it before it passed the House? You’re a better scholar than me, cyrena - could you research this one? Thanks.

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By jake3988, September 3, 2008 at 9:14 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

There is no one out there standing up for what liberals and, and frankly if you look at the polls, everyone wants.

Issues like gay marriage, Iraq War, decriminalizing marijuana, and others are in wild majority supports but there’s no politician out there who stands up for these things. 

Obama is on the right and McCain is on the far-right.  We need a REAL liberal candidate who will stand up for the rest of us!

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By Leefeller, September 3, 2008 at 7:37 am Link to this comment

ITW,

Noticed the change in your posts, we can get burned out chasing our tails, time for a break.

Being on board a sinking ship is not a good feeling, is it still women and children first?

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By Inherit The Wind, September 3, 2008 at 7:17 am Link to this comment

DaMick, September 2 at 6:05 pm #

ITW: Sticks & stones pal. If you want to insult people, why not go to a Fox forum? We’re having a discussion. Either join in politely or butt out. If you have some actual facts, or insight you’d like to pitch in, please do. I don’t care if it’s from Jim Kramer or Homer Simpson - please just focus on sharing something other than your view from the pedestal you’ve fashioned for yourself.
*******************************************

Yeah, I’m usually insulting in a very different way, more “street-fighting”, which I’m better at.

I can’t really tell you more…or why I can’t, so I’ll just butt out and watch from an Olympian POV.

It’s just you are all wasting your time and chasing your tails.  Sorry, but that’s the truth.  Those who know me know this ain’t my usual style.

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By Shenonymous, September 3, 2008 at 6:49 am Link to this comment

The reality is that any health care plan will have to go through Congress and Obama’s plan will be reshaped by both the House and the Senate and unless there is a dominant Democratic Congress there won’t be a change of any significance.  Candidates’ for president health care plans are political coins.  Obama means change, but not chump change. 

Those who bow to the wisdom of Hedges bow to a god with less than one eye and only sees half of what is real.  Half truths can be just as dangerous as lies.

Much as I liked Biden, I have to agree with cyrena on Barbara Boxer, who I think is about as strong a female politician as there is and who can articulate the problems better than most.  But Boxer does not seem to want anything more than to be a California senator, at least up until now.  Boxer says Obama “offers hope, opportunity and fairness and a foreign policy that is moral again.”  I agree with her.  There are a lot of issues and health care is just one of them. 

I don’t agree that the two party system eliminates thinking and reason from the majority of the people.  I think proof of that are those who post on this forum and all the others.  The fact that we don’t get what we want from the system is not a sign that it doesn’t work.  It just means it doesn’t work for some.  The fact that money controls everything, even religion, is not a sign that democracy even in the guise of a republic doesn’t work.  There is money on all sides, even with the independents.  A parliamentary system would be better but it is not possible to change from what we have.  To get a better reality one has to negotiate within the reality that is there.

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By KDelphi, September 3, 2008 at 6:33 am Link to this comment

Who said there is “no diff” between Obama and McSame? Nobody in this house!! Of course Obama is “better” in some ways—but,. I’ve just decided in the past few weeks, although I have been leaning independent everytime someome tries to tell me how I must vote for Obama, and refuses to listen to any complaints about his platform,that, given what my Medicaid HMO and two of my friends’ “exp. with the US death care system” (one is dead) that one is NOT a progressive if they are backing a mkt based health care plan! I am tired of voting for “better than”. If some people arent going to live so that other people can make money, maybe some of us who knew them have a responsibility to try to hold the broken, primitivistic system in the uS accountable. If you dont know if youre going to be around for the next election , and youre leaving behind sick family and friends, WHY is it so wrong to try to hold people to account for the issue that has become paramount to yu? The lady in here from Canada, all that she had done—yes she would be finanacialy ruined in th US—well, I already am! I cannot have over $2500 worth of ANYTHING at any one time. I was hit by a drunk with 6 mos to go on my state pension—so i LIVE(if you wana call it that) on$560 a mo. after they take out about $100 for money I had left after I bought my $50,000 house , which isnt even worth THAT now. Obama has NO plan for that , other than “education”—people were robbed—I saw the contracts. BTW, I’ve been in Mexico—I drank water out of a fountain there—never got sick Italy either.. Maybe it was my strong stomach or growin up in the country with an open well, but to insult Mexico to prove we have “cleaner water” is a little off topic, dont you think? The US is hardly in a positon , given its status in health care,how illegal workeers are treated, warmongering, our “faith based” educational system, etc. We had bset clean up our own back yard before we piss in others; i can understand the inclination, since ours is so full now—but saying “well, we’re beter than” or “the dems are better than” convinces almost no one. Thats what you want ot do, right? Convince people? You want to win right? Not just blame it on someone else? If you are in a goodpostiton with your health and coverage, good for yu—no one is saying you cant keep it.If you want people in a BAD positoin as far as health or health care—why shluld they care bout much els? AlterNet is attacking Obam’s plan,CD has,—if he doesnt change it, he eil lose alot of votes. No matter how you feel about anything—whether yo give a damn about otherw or not—think of your glorious candidate—ask hinm to back HR 676—single payer—he’ll gain votes. Isnt that the issue you keep hariping on? “He cannot win with single-payer”...well, he can win in states where its desperate, like the Rust Belt. He needs those states. right? People in sttes that are doing better have NO idea how much (and how many) have died inOhio, Mich, Penn.—I can guarantee that, without a more progressive social agenda, he wil not win in these states. Although I didnt like the way it was put, maybe—when Obama said people around here turn to guns and God—its true—and they will turn to McSame. I am an atheist who thinks al the guns should b e melted down. Bur I dont control the state and trying to talk people out of it, esp. as things get worse, is prob a losing strategy. Think on this—if you had a heart attack right now, you would feel sure thouwould have ER treatm,ent, right? Well, here, ifyou dont have $500 cash or a credit card with that amopunt on it—you canjust lie ther and die. I am not lying. How can you expect me to go with a mkt based oplanin light of this crap>? PS=—Obama, when asked about Blackwater, said that “we couldnt get by in Iraq or New Orleans without them”. Way off topic, dyt?

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By casey, September 3, 2008 at 6:14 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Great!  Now you report on this - after the coronation.  Paul Krugman has been saying this for the last 18 months.

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By DaMick, September 2, 2008 at 8:33 pm Link to this comment

True in a vacuum, like most extremes. But we’re talking about PEOPLE making change, not parties. I pick Boxer in my fantasy draft because she is solid and intelligent, cares deeply about people, environmental issues, and has been vehemently anti-war from the get-go. Look at her record. If we were active enough to get more thinking people like her into office, we’d be making progress, a step at a time. And that’s the key: to make progress.

Great jazz is about improvising on the theme. And where geniuses such as Charley Parker and Ella Fitzgerald produced great American art in the face of rabid racism, we as progressive citizens for fair and equitable Democracy should be improvising on the theme at hand, instead of the ideal we can imagine. Again, the point is to start by dumping the neocon monster at the wheel, and getting back on the road. Lots of metaphors, I know, I know…

One thing is for sure: activism of all sorts will not sleep regardless of who is elected. My vote will simply be for the more palatable chance to correct what ails us, and go from there. Wasting votes to prove convictions, as in 2000 with Nader, will simply make things worse. See: Bush/Cheney, Blackwater, Diebold, Halliburton, etc. We’re in this dimension, whether we like it or not. Let’s stop trying to write a symphony and improvise on the theme. We are the ones who have to make the difference, and it’s crucial that we see that fact for what it is: unavoidable.

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By DaMick, September 2, 2008 at 8:04 pm Link to this comment

Or Boxer / Feingold… yeah

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By Leefeller, September 2, 2008 at 8:03 pm Link to this comment

As we sit here and argue the finer points of this and that, selected for us topics,  all so well planned part of smoke and mirrors by the powers that be, resolve is absent like accountability from our government.  Some of the posters we find on TD seem to support death watch USA, wolf killer palin and the shuck and jive express. Support with a blind passion the simpleton defining of us and them, we see partisanship as a religious cult, using simplicity designed to enhance dissemination of lies among people.

All part of a planned shtick to take focus away from real inequities that would possibly improve the slob on the streets own interests. Instead we see this blind almost religious following of partisan politics, so be it. 

My point is, the two party system is designed to eliminate thinking and reason from the majority of the people.

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By DaMick, September 2, 2008 at 8:01 pm Link to this comment

Yeah, I hear you. Feinstein & Pelosi should take a long trip somewhere with Lieberman and never come back…

As far as BB is concerned, she is the real McCoy, and I know where you’re coming from. I’m proud to have her in our corner, as well. But I can still dream can’t I…? But in the dream, it’s actually Boxer / Obama… ha ha

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By cyrena, September 2, 2008 at 7:37 pm Link to this comment

DaMick writes:

Hell, I wish Obama had picked Boxer to be his VP - a slam dunk for Hillary voters and progressives alike - but what do I know?

~~~~

DaMick, I say you know a whole lot!! On Boxer, I’ve had the same thought many, many, times. Of course, as a native Californian, myself, (and just SOOOO glad to be back home after doing hard corporate slave time in Texas for more years than I ever want to ponder) I can only selfishly say that while she would have been the best pick for VP, I’m glad we have her here for us as our Senator. As it is, we need a replacement for Diane Feinstein, (I wish Barbara Lee would do that) and we just need to hold on to Barbara Boxer, at least until we’ve done some other rearranging. Nancy Pelosi definitely has to go, and there are a few others who need recycling (out) as well. So, on a purely selfish note, I’d rather keep Boxer here for the time being.

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By DaMick, September 2, 2008 at 7:05 pm Link to this comment

ITW: Sticks & stones pal. If you want to insult people, why not go to a Fox forum? We’re having a discussion. Either join in politely or butt out. If you have some actual facts, or insight you’d like to pitch in, please do. I don’t care if it’s from Jim Kramer or Homer Simpson - please just focus on sharing something other than your view from the pedestal you’ve fashioned for yourself. Your message will get across much better that way. Also, you may want to delve a little deeper into this chain & consider the topic as we have been pursuing since 8am this morning. The NPR link I offered on their series on socialized medicine in Europe, called “Healthcare For All”, is a good place to start and study, with particular interest on the German program, which exists successfully alongside private medicine, and has a track record of 100+ years.

Thanks.

TW: Indeed, indeed. You’d think they were in 2nd grade… just kidding ;o]

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By SCJ, September 2, 2008 at 6:47 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Quite being led like sheep to the slaughter.  Obama’s voting record has always been for the big corporations.  Frankly he got voted in running against a scandeled opponent, and capitalized on it , not unlike McCains current V.P pick did in Alaska.  The corporate media picked him along with the rest of th etop elitists in this country.  If you want change vote for a third party and encourage others to do the same.  A vote for Obama is a vote for more illegal wars and more genocide in Afghanistan and Iraq, becaudse even if they do pull the troops out they will leave 50,000 + to maintain the 14 military bases there.

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By yours truly, September 2, 2008 at 5:55 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

p.s.

Should Barack Obama’s support for a privatized health care system curb one’s enthusiasm for his candidacy?  Not unless he doesn’t make good on his statement that he understands that change comes to, not from Washington D.C., which informs us that he’s a work in progress & it’s up to us to make sure that he sees the light.

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By yours truly, September 2, 2008 at 5:42 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Assuming that health, like food, water, housing and work is a right, then a single payer health care system is the only way this can be brought about.  That’s clear from one finding alone, Medicare’s 3% administrative costs compared to the private insurance overhead of at least 31%.  That’s why all the plans for health care systems based on investment owned companies are two-tiered, meaning that those who can afford coverage get optimal care and those who can’t, well, sorry, wish we could do more, but there’s just not enough to go around.

Which means that under a privatized health care system some of us are going to die for lack of care.  How many?  Upwards of 20,000 annually, based on how many people died for want of coverage 5 years ago since there’s even more without insurance today than back then.

Yet those who support privatization of health care remain adamant in their opposition to single payer plans.  Why?  Can only be they put their marketplace ideology before the well-being and lives of actual people, that’s why.  In other words they couldn’t care less about us.  Which is why we must ignore them and go for the single payer system.

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By Inherit The Wind, September 2, 2008 at 5:24 pm Link to this comment

I’ve told you all once:

Obama needs to ask Jim Cramer which analysts he should consult for an effective health care system at minimum cost and maximum effectiveness.

Nobody here knows $#!t from Shinola next to the folks I’m thinking of.

Sorry to be so blunt, but it’s like listening to 2nd graders discussing quantum physics.

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By Tony Wicher, September 2, 2008 at 5:22 pm Link to this comment

DaMick,

Well, you and I appear to be on the same wavelength.
Even now the Bush Administration has not yet trashed the country to the point of becoming Mexico. But we are looking more like it every day. What I say is that Obama is our only chance to turn the country around, and anyone who can’t see this is objectively not a real progressive and should be vigorously opposed by real progessives at this crucial time. What are these people trying to do, get McCain elected? That’s all I want to know.

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By DaMick, September 2, 2008 at 5:08 pm Link to this comment

This is hilarious. I can’t believe I am defending the government here, but seriously… have you ever been to Mexico? I am a native San Diegan, and spend part of my life in Baja California, where I have many friends. Before you start trashing everything that our government does, try a gander at the infrastructure in Mexico. Last I read we have near 90% clean drinking water in this country. That’s a problem, sure, for far too many people are going with sub-standard water for the ‘wealthiest nation in the world [blah blah blah]’ - but seriously—-if you drank a thimble full of the stuff that comes out of many taps in Mexico you’d be on the toilet for a week.

Again, what’s needed in this day & age is PRAGMATISM fellow progressive types, not vitriol and ideals. If you honestly think that there would be no difference between a McCain and Obama administration, you need to do a little more research. I don’t imagine McCain would be advised by environmentalists, nor that Obama would hire a puppet like Stephen Johnson to head the EPA and bury crucial findings about the dire health effects of greenhouse gases. Extremism is just that: extreme. As an independent progressive myself, I find valuable insight and ideas in a a number of candidates, though do not entirely agree with any one of them - from Kucinich to Ron Paul to Obama. All of them have brilliant ideas, yet are lacking in other areas. Hell, I wish Obama had picked Boxer to be his VP - a slam dunk for Hillary voters and progressives alike - but what do I know?

It’s this: it doesn’t help something to grow by shouting at it. And while vastly imperfect, and in serious SERIOUS need of an overhaul, our country still has it’s merits. My grandfather, Dan Bodie, who just passed away at almost 93, fought in Okinawa side by side with his brother, witnessed the signing of the peace treat with Japan, and went on to raise a multi-generational family, after helping to establish the first painter’s union in San Diego, and painted battleships and churches and radio towers, did not work his ass off and defend his country from tyranny to have us let it go to pot, raving from our chairs into electric boxes. Read some Confucius. It starts from the seed, my friends. Go plant and water it from your uncontaminated spigots.

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By KDelphi, September 2, 2008 at 4:55 pm Link to this comment

Lets not forget—“blame the victin” is thr great American pasttime! Unfortunately, the Dems seem to share in its self-righteous delights almsot as much as the GOP does, these days. And its not just a disppointment—its deadly.Cilcsster—I’m sorry you had so much pain. I am very glad that you were able to get outside the US and get it taken care of, so you are here. I hope for this for all of us. But, some people want to keep believing the Harry and Louise bullshit. You can be sure that they are either healthy or have good coverage…sigh.Where is the real left and what have you guys don ewith them?

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By cilcsster, September 2, 2008 at 4:36 pm Link to this comment

Marshall, you can talk to all the people you want, but I had a melanoma on my ear requiring a day in the hospital for plastic surgery in ‘01, in ‘02 I had a carotid procedure done, in ‘04 I had a triple by-pass (just like Cheney did), and later that year the other artery in my neck done, followed by a stroke (in the hospital).  I was on life support for a month before being moved to rehab for 6 weeks, and when I was released had occupational and physiotherapists coming to the house for months.  Do me a favor…add all this up and tell me what the out-of-pocket expenses would be in The State of California.  Got it?  Well, I pay $100 medicare a year, and $4.11 per perscription, now add that up and deduct it from the figure you got for California. I don’t know you and perhaps the math is a bit heavy for you, but I would have been financially ruined if I had been living in Ontario California instead of Ontario Canada.  Any questions?
Oh, and about wait time.  I waited to get a room for several hours.  Was it worth it?  Sort of a silly question isn’t it.  No Canadians are not forced to go anywhere for medical care, any more than Americans are forced to go to India or Thailand for it which many of them do.

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By KDelphi, September 2, 2008 at 3:37 pm Link to this comment

I’m dying to hear someon say “That sounds like a good start. i would back that, I think.”. Please?? I feel really hopeless about this issue. Please? I’m not asking for myself—if you lived in dying Ohio right now, and see how many homeless, the food banks empty, etc. you would understand,. I spent years as a social worker—so I guess I notice it more—but more peopl eNEED to notice, if we are to prevent sliping into Thire World Staus. If you think it doesn t sound good—I could see if I can find the links—they may have changed it. I’m desperate, people, OK? What happend to giving people “hope”?

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By Adam, September 2, 2008 at 3:30 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Why does everyone expect our politicians to do anything?  That is NOT their job… their job is to win elections and piss on the people who voted for them!  When was the last time the US government did anything for anyone… Liberating Iraq?  LOL

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By KDelphi, September 2, 2008 at 3:14 pm Link to this comment

HR 676, I assume you mean, right? I have not read the latest revised (Conyers, Lee—boith and basically, entire Human Services Subcommittee and CBC all support it), but it involves Medicare for all. People with certain incomes would pay a certain amount, there would be a mandatory to get at least bare bones. (If you think you dont need any—youre wrong—youcould get hit by a drunk driver tomorrow, and dont say you wouldnt want to be trreated—no dr. is going to do that—unlses your in an HMO—just kidding!)It would work like Medicare, and , if you could not afford it , you would be subvsizied. All measures to save money would be implemented (like preventive care, stop smoking supplies, necessary med. supplies)and BULK< BID UPON prescriptions—no more “pay full price”. (We now pay the highest prices in hte world for Rx, as you may know)There are people in this room who aer from Canada who say this is just not a prob. I’m not saying it never is—but if you have no coverage at al now—it cannot be worse. I was treated in Canada—it was great, but aI was not realy “living” htere; but I WAS living ni Denmark, and the care was immediate (it was an er thing) excellent, and they made fun of me when I tried to pay! People in other advanced countries really think we are stupid that way. I agree. What could be more important to a progressive administration than provioding for the least—the peole onthe stree. What if vets didnt have to go to the VA at all and we could jsut update our medical system—I realize that all that would tak awhile—we’d need to cut spending on other hingsd liek war, roll back tax cuts. etc.But, I think HR 676 uis a helluva good start and I just would LOVE to see someone support them on it.

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By Marshall, September 2, 2008 at 3:00 pm Link to this comment

By cilcsster, September 2 at 11:29 am #

“Where are you getting the rubbish about health care in Canada.”

My information comes from news reports, analysis, and discussions with Canadians and Americans.

And btw: I’m not talking about the credentials of doctors in Canada - Canada has excellent doctors.  What I’m talking about is:

1) Wait times for important procedures in Canada are a real problem, forcing many to go to the U.S. for critical care.  Canadians are twice as likely to wait at least 4 hours in an emergency room before treatment, for example:

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/publications_show.htm?doc_id=482678

2) Access to the latest medical technology is often nonexistent outside of major metro areas.

3) The type of care available through the govt. program is inconsistent across provinces.

Consequently, there’s an ongoing debate (as well as policy changes) moving the funding system back towards a more privatized model.  In fact, Canada’s system is only public as far as the payment of provider costs; the actual provider system itself is mostly private.

Also FYI: while WHO ranks the U.S. as 37th globally, Canada isn’t much better at 30th.  But of course WHO isn’t the last word in health care ranking - it’s just one opinion and has been criticized for its methods and conclusions.

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By DaMick, September 2, 2008 at 2:24 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Good post Cyrena. Thanks for the discussing details, and not just the ideals. Again, i’d like to point out that obama’s plan is similar to an effective german program that has been in place for well over 100 years. And it’s true: nothing is free. Example:

“The health care system ... is not funded by government taxes. But it is compulsory. All German workers pay about 8 percent of their gross income to a nonprofit insurance company called a sickness fund. Their employers pay about the same amount. Workers can choose among 240 sickness funds.

Basing premiums on a percentage-of-salary means that the less people make, the less they have to pay. The more money they make, the more they pay. This principle is at the heart of the system. Germans call it “solidarity.” The idea is that everybody’s in it together, and nobody should be without health insurance.”

Source: NPR

KDelphi: why not explain the Resolution briefly - that would be hugely constructive to the discussion for those such as Cyrena, who haven’t yet had the chance to look into it :o]

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By KDelphi, September 2, 2008 at 2:19 pm Link to this comment

If Obama would settle on one, that doesnt involve privat4 industry, it would be more in line with other adbvanced countries. It is reported constantly and people from other countries are just amazed. Moore’s “Sicko” was a good example (s) of SOME of it—but, I think you have to be in a govt funded HMO to know how really bad it is. Once you get on—you cant get off.I guess the only t hing to do is move to Canad (if they will have some of us) until the US wakes up. Canad may have something else to say about that. I think it would be “Fix your opwn country”.

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By truthreader3, September 2, 2008 at 2:15 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

It is 174 posts before this post, and no one mentioned the real reason politicians are talking about health care for the people. The REAL REASON is that if the current trend continue, then the insurance companies and Hospitals and pharma componiesd will be in deep trouble for the simple reason that the citizens will not be ablle to pay.
So, the ONLY objective of the politicians is how to help the Medical/Insurance complex. The end result will be that more of the payments will come from the government but the role of the Insurance/Medical complex will still be the same and they will rake in more dollars and believe me for less service. With these infamous tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations, then the extra costs will come from more taxes and fees levied on the average Joes/Janes who cannot win while corrupt and bought out politicians are in charge.  The average Joes/Janes will keep getting poorer and poorer.
And yes, forget any thing about a national health
care sytem or even a single payer insurance system.

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By DaMick, September 2, 2008 at 2:12 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Hey - be as passionate as you want about your ideas. My point is that injecting accusations and insults at people you don’t know outside of a few posts on a website doesn’t help get your message across. Basically I get where you’re coming from, and while not a fan of labels (left, right, up, down, pink, black, blue, whatever), I’ve been actively supporting progressive causes and responsible Democracy for over two decades. So be careful who you put into pigeon holes. The “real left” is just as illusory as true liberty. We are all children of a very tarnished human history. Make the best of what you have, keep moving forward with conviction, and above all, respect one another. The minute you start personally defiling the neocons, you run the risk of joining their ranks. So much for progress.

Peace Brother & Sister Humanoids

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By cyrena, September 2, 2008 at 2:12 pm Link to this comment

KDelphi, September 2 at 10:21 am #
cyrena, if he supports health care for all who want it, why wil he not support HR 676. He is more concerned with jobs at HMOs, and the DNC is concerned with funding their political aristocracy. The GOP is worse—no kidding. Peace. LOL

~~~~~~
KDelphi,

I can’t answer the question on HR 676 or why Obama didn’t vote for it, because I haven’t read the bill, or his comments on it. That is only because I haven’t had time, but I do intend to read it –thoroughly- as well as any comments of record that Obama has made in respect to that. Until I have complete knowledge of the language of the legislation, and whatever analysis might be available, I wouldn’t comment either way. But, I promise to read it as soon as I can.

Meantime, can I tell you that this isn’t about the “DNC”. These are dangerous generalizations KDelphi. The problem with the health care system in the US, (which is far better in some places/states than it is in others) is most certainly determined by political implications, because the Corporate State IS the Government, and that co-entanglement of corps/government is a political ‘coming of age’ that began to take place decades ago, and is NOT relegated to the DNC, or even the GOP for that matter. This is a system/apparatus that cannot be dismissed so easily as oh, the DNC just wants to fund THEIR political aristocracy. In fact, it’s grossly naïve to even suggest that. If there is ANY ‘political persuasion’ that can be ‘blamed’ for the morphing of a ‘managed’ democracy or an ‘inverted totalitarian’ structure, it would actually be the conservatives and the neocons. And yes, that same entity of the corporate neolibs. But this isn’t a DNC thing, and it never has been.
In fact, the whole thing (HMO) started out as the best thing since sliced bread 4 decades ago, and specifically FOR the middle class. The original participants in this program were the teachers, the policemen, the firemen, the postal workers, and on and on. It was UNIONS, (at least back when they had a bit of a presence) who negotiated for these plans on behalf of their members, and the original intent was basically a very ‘socialist’ one. For reasonable premiums, (often covered entirely or in part by employers and unions) an individual or family could have access to any medical service that they needed, WITHOUT concern for meeting deductibles, or other out of pocket expenses like the standard 20% of any given hospital or medical service that most insurers provided at the time. For instance, Blue Cross, Blue Shield, Prudential, or any of the others, generally offered plans that would pay (reimburse) 80% of expenses, AFTER a deductible had been met, and the patient was responsible for the other 20%, and had to file all of the claims and the whole nine yards.
HMO’s made it far simpler to address major and unexpected medical expenses by basically covering it all. Routine office visits were a set fee, (like $10.00) and back then, a prescription for ANYTHING was $5.00. Anything requiring hospitalization was covered 100%. In fact, AT THE ONSET, HMO’s were very similar to what you are raving about as being available in other countries like Canada and SOME European nations. (you keep referring to the EU as if those member states are part of a national system identical to the US and that too is incorrect). The European Union isn’t even that old, and their medical care system is not set up on a national level the way Canada’s is. It’s dangerous to mix them up so generally, because it is also INCORRECT to say that this medical in Canada or portions of Europe is ‘free’. NOTHING is ‘free’ in terms of goods or services. The people providing them have to eat too, and the equipment, supplies, and basic infrastructure that makes up a medical provider system doesn’t just grow on trees or become available by benefit of the Oceans delivering dialysis machines to the doors of Kaiser or anyplace else.

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By cyrena, September 2, 2008 at 2:10 pm Link to this comment

2 of 2

All of that said, the original intent behind these HMO’s was very ‘socialist’. In fact, back in the day when my first spouse was a physician in training, he WANTED to go to work for an HMO, because he felt that he wouldn’t be restricted in ordering the appropriate care for any patient, based on what they may or may not be able to afford. If somebody (anybody) needs an expensive procedure, or expensive medication (on a long term basis) even if one was ‘covered’ by the old standard policies, the out of pocket 20% could add up very quickly. (take it from one who knows). So HMO’s have not *always* been a bad thing.

That’s not to say that all people selected them, because there were drawbacks, at least at the time. My mother, (who was a career health care worker in what was then the ‘private’ industry) hated these HMO’s, and particularly Kaiser Permenente, (the largest at the time) but hers was far more an emotional rather than practical critique, and not necessarily any more accurate than those who critique systems that they really don’t understand. She complained that one could not ‘choose’ their own physician at these places, and that was true for a while. But eventually, that changed as well, and one COULD choose there own, though on occasions, (and dependent on the purpose of the visit) any qualified physical or other health care professional can provide the service. It is no different from having a family doctor who might be on vacation when one becomes ill, and so you get whomever is on call for the doctor at the time. And if one needed a specialist for any sort of medical problem, all of those were available within the same system. There could be a lengthy wait for some things, but that happens with physicians outside the system as well.
So it was not until the Insurance Industry merged itself into the Health Care Industry to become one and the same, that the HMO’s became the exploitive monsters that they’ve become, and that has everything to do with Corporate Power and is systemic to the elite, regardless of their political persuasion. What is has become now IS an exploitive monster devoted only to their bottom line, which means denying care and selectively choosing those who they will agree to cover, or canceling their coverage arbitrarily.

Meantime, you seem to lack any realistic sense of JUST how many Americans are employed in the health care sector, vile as you think it may be, and that INCLUDES HMO’s. They work to provide health care to anyone who needs it, and while HMO employees are rarely paid at the level of those in private practice, (though that too is changing) they DO work, and they DO pay the appropriate taxes to the national coffers. COULD they be incorporated into a national system/structure? I would say yes. But not overnight. Such an apparatus takes time to develop, unless you’re suggesting that the State just ‘take over’ the entire existing infrastructure, and I think even YOU know what THAT sounds like.

Anyway, I promise to read the bill if you’ll promise to break things down a little bit, to look inside, and see how these things really operate.

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By thebeerdoctor, September 2, 2008 at 2:08 pm Link to this comment

re: Tony Wicher, Aegrus

I understand Tony, the reality of political expediency becomes difficult to explain. Aegrus is closer to the point about getting rid of rascals. Believe me, who is the Governor of my state, affects our life much more than who is president. In fact, it might be wise to try and get as many reasonable people into Congress, so in case of an electoral catastrophe, natural or otherwise, the legislative branch will not just be a door mat for the executive.
Good god how twisted the newspeak has become! Ask yourself: who passes the laws? That is suppose to be congress’s function. What is the chief job of the executive branch? To uphold and defend the constitution by executing the laws, and act as commander-in-chief ONLY when Congress has declared war. And what is the third branch of the government for? The Supreme Court is suppose to be the final arbiter on whether a law is constitutional or not. And that’s it.
So all this fawning over the executive pageant exists only because the people have forgotten how the government is suppose to work. Until you have a Congress exercising its actual constitutional function, by asserting its powers as established by the Constitution; then all this politicking is merely a tired joke

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By KDelphi, September 2, 2008 at 2:06 pm Link to this comment

If there are 10,000 people working for HMOs (I’m tqaking you word for it), they would then work for the govt.Those that did not—would have to find other jobs, lik the millions who lsot manufacturing jobs. 20,000 people would be saved the first year. If even half of them vote, they would vote for whoever decided that their lives werew worth more than the alighty fuckin dollar bill!

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