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|  Iran Shows Its CardsPosted on Jul 14, 2008
By Scott Ritter (Page 2) Neither the Israeli nor the American (and for that reason, European and Asian) economy would emerge intact from a U.S. attack on Iran. Oil would almost instantly break the $300-per-barrel mark, and because the resulting conflict would more than likely be longer and more violent that most are predicting, there is a good chance oil would top $500 or even more within days or weeks. Hyperinflation would almost certainly strike every market-based economy, and the markets themselves would collapse under the strain. The good news is that the military planners in the Pentagon are cognizant of this reality. They know the limitations of American power, and what they can and cannot achieve. When it was uncertain how Iran would respond to a limited attack, either on their nuclear facilities or bases associated with the Revolutionary Guard Command, some planners might have thought that the U.S. could actually pull off a quick and relatively bloodless attack. Now that Iran has made it crystal clear that even a limited U.S. attack would bring about a massive Iranian response, all military planners now understand that any U.S. military attack will have to be massive. Simply put, the United States does not now have the military capacity in the Middle East to launch such a strike, and any redeployment of U.S. forces into the region could not go undetected, either by Iran, which would in turn redeploy its forces, or the rest of the world. Because a U.S. attack against Iran would have such horrific detrimental impact on the entire world, it is hard to imagine the international community remaining mute as American military might is assembled. Likewise, despite the disposition of Congress to either remain silent on the issue or actively facilitate military action against Iran, it would become increasingly difficult for American lawmakers to ignore the consequences of a military strike on Iran, economically and politically. The same can be said of both major presidential candidates. The decision by Iran to show its hand on how it would respond to any American aggression has cleared the air, so to speak, about what is actually being discussed when one speaks of military action against Iran. In many ways, the Iranian missile tests have made it less likely that there will be a war with Iran, simply because the stakes of any such action are so plainly obvious to all parties involved. Iran continues, based upon all available intelligence information, to pursue a nuclear program which is exclusively intended for peaceful energy purposes. Any concerns which may exist about the dual-use potential of Iran’s uranium enrichment programs can be mitigated through viable nuclear inspections conducted by the International Atomic Energy Agency. IAEA inspections should be improved upon by getting Iran to go along with an additional inspection protocol, rather than pursuing military action which will destroy the inspection process and remove the very verification processes which provide the international community with the confidence that Iran is not pursuing a nuclear weapons program. The reality is that Iran’s nuclear program is here to stay. Iran has every right under international law to pursue this program, and regional and global tensions would be greatly reduced (along with the price of oil) if American policies, and in related fashion U.N. Security Council mandates, were adjusted accordingly. Israeli paranoia—derived not so much from any genuine Iranian threat but rather an affront to Israeli nuclear hegemony in the Middle East—must in turn be subdued. This can be done through a mixture of international pressure designed to punish Israel diplomatically and economically for any failure to adhere to international norms when it comes to peaceful coexistence with its neighbors, and international assurances that Israel’s sovereignty and viability as a nation-state will forever be respected and defended.
Of course, there can be no meaningful international pressure brought to bear on Israel without American participation, and herein lies the crux of the problem. Until the U.S. Congress segregates legitimate national security concerns from narrow Israeli-only issues, the pro-Israel lobby will have considerable control over American national security policy. The American Israel Public Affairs Committee’s continued push for congressional action concerning the implementation of what is tantamount to a naval blockade of Iran (and as such, an act of war) by pushing House Resolution 362 and Senate Resolution 580 is mind-boggling given the reality of the situation. Congress must stop talking blockade, and start discussing stability and confidence-building measures.
Only an irrational person or organization could continue to discuss as viable a military strike against Iran. Sadly, based upon past and current policy articulations, neither AIPAC nor the Bush administration can be considered rational when it comes to the issue of Iran. It is up to the American people, through their elected representatives in Congress, to inject a modicum of sanity into a situation that continues to be in danger of spinning out of control. Scott Ritter was a U.N. weapons inspector in Iraq from 1991 to 1998. He is the author of “Target Iran” (Nation Books, 2007).
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By Robert, July 26 at 5:09 pm #
YESTERDAY I WAS A SELF HATING JEW ~~ TODAY I HAVE BEEN VINDICATED
July 26, 2008 at 4:25 pm (Israel, Media,
Palestine, Soldier Brutality)
“Yesterday I posted THIS implying that myself and other Jews who expose the crimes committed by Israel were destroying Israels self image.
Today, the Jerusalem Post makes it very clear that the image Israel wishes to convey is being destroyed by themselves, not by me.
ANOTHER CASE in which the media found itself on the firing line this week is the footage that featured prominently on every local and many foreign news broadcasts of an IDF soldier deliberately shooting a rubber-tipped bullet into the foot of a bound-and-blindfolded Palestinian, arrested for taking part in a violent protest against the West Bank security barrier.
The incident was filmed by one of the many Palestinians supplied with video cameras by the Palestinian-rights organization, Btselem, especially to capture on tape incidents just like this.
Needless to say, this illegal, immoral and stupid act caused Israel image-damage way out of proportion to the severity of the offense.
Obviously, if the incident hadnt been caught on tape, it would barely have rated a mention in most foreign media reports, and its difficult to imagine that similar such occurrences elsewhere in the world would ever get such coverage.”
~~~~~~
Click on URL to read the rest of this great article:
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/07/26/yesterday- i-was-a-self-hating-jew-today-i-have-been-vindicated/
Report thisBy Robert, July 26 at 4:49 pm #
Palestinian family denied even half a house
By Jonathan Cook*
27 July 2008
“Jonathan Cook highlights the case of the Palestinian Khurd family to show how shadowy Jewish settler groups, in collusion with the Israeli government, are changing the geography of Jerusalem by forcing out Palestinians and replacing them with Israeli settlers.
It must be the smallest Israeli settlement in the occupied Palestinian territories: just half a house. But Palestinian officials and Israeli human rights groups are concerned that it represents the first stage of a plan to eradicate the historical neighbourhood of Sheikh Jarrah in East Jerusalem, cutting off one of the main routes by which Palestinians reach the Old City and its holy sites.
Human rights organizations accuse Israel of imposing a policy of silent forceful mgration against Palestinians in the West Bank
The home of Mohammed and Fawziya Khurd has been split in two since 1999 when the Israeli courts evicted their grown-up son Raed from a wing of the property. The elderly couple have been trying to regain possession, but were stymied last week when an Israeli high court backed the petition of a group of settlers and ordered the immediate eviction of the Khurds. The decision paves the way for the takeover of 26 multistory houses in the neighbourhood, threatening to make 500 Palestinians homeless.
The verdict has been denounced by Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president, and in the past few days the Khurds have been visited by foreign diplomats, including from the United States.
In a letter to consulates in Jerusalem, including those of the United States, Britain, France and Germany, Rafiq Husseini, Mr Abbass aide, warned that the takeover of the Khurds home was part of a wider drive to change the geography of Jerusalem by forcing out Palestinians and replacing them with Israeli settlers. Such a development would deal a death blow to already-strained peace negotiations, he wrote.
Today there are 250,000 Israeli Jews living illegally in East Jerusalem, and the Israeli government has announced that thousands more apartments are to be built despite promises to the US government to freeze settlement growth.
Israeli human rights groups and Palestinian solidarity activists, meanwhile, have been staging a 24-hour vigil at the Khurds home in the hope of preventing the orders enforcement.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Click on URL to read the rest of this sad & real story. There are NO equal rights if one is a Palestinian and NOT Jewish in Israel.
http://www.redress.cc/palestine/jcook20080727
Report thisBy Robert, July 26 at 9:50 am #
By Cyrena, July 25 at 10:26 PM
Thanks Cyrena… I try to do my best to convey the truth & to bring it out so all of us can see it out there. Our U.S. AIPAC controlled news media have a huge grip & monopoly on their “news topics/propaganda”. They will NOT accept or tolerate any competition to their propaganda empire. Almost any competition that rises to the occasion to compete with the wealthy owners of the MSM...that competition is bought or taken over. Look at what happened to Ted Turner/CNN and others. Rupert Murdoch’s empire is out there for total control of the business. Their grip & control on the news media is a huge weapon and that is why most of our elected officials are intimidated and they know that criticism of Israel’s policies can be used by MSM to ruin their careers & legacy.
Cyrena...you hang in there with your consistent & academic posts. I know that you are not scared to get your feet wet NOR to your waist line.
Report thisBy cyrena, July 25 at 10:16 pm #
Robert..good to hear from you. I was just mentioning you the other day, and for this very reason. All of the really good stuff that you find, that we wouldn’t otherwise know exists.
Now that’s also a testimony to the failure of even some of the alternative media, because I haven’t bothered with the MSM for years...literally. Still, I rarely come across the kinds of things you share, even on the alternative media.
So..there we have it.
Hopefully TD will post what you’ve provided here for us as a report.
Report thisBy Robert, July 25 at 8:05 pm #
Ernest, I wouldn’t worry too much about “Sepharad” responding to your challenge. He/she called me a Nazi & called you a “self-hating Jew"(see part of Sephard’s posted comment below) just the same ole common zionist tactics.
He/she doesn’t believe that the internet has any truth/accuracy when compared to the mainstream news media.
You & I know that we will NOT see the story of “The Palestinian Bar Mitzvah” on our mainstream AIPAC controlled news medias NOR will we see it in 99% of the U.S. newspapers. That would be career suicide for any honest & professional journalist.
On the other hand, he/she may just respond & take you up on your challenge. Just sit back & watch.
“Lefty,
Dont let the reincarnated Nazis (Robert is probably the worst but some of the others are also pretty frightening)get you down. The guy who thinks its OK to be a Nazi because his mother is a Russian Jew is probably just another one of the self-hating Jews David Mamet writes about. The problem with so many of these guys, whatever their background, is that they do most of their research on the Net and as you know its possible to find any kind of narrowly focused BS googling around. The regular media coverage is somewhat better but since the 70s late there has been a lot of anti-Israel bias out there too. (Honest Reporting monitors and attempts to work with such outlets: theyve gotten many major retractions from everyone from Reuters to BBC, where facts have been scrambled and pictures faked.)”
Report thisBy cann4ing, July 25 at 1:51 pm #
Interesting, Robert, how Sepharad chose to ignore my challenge that he explain how calling for an end to a 40 year brutal occupation and the killing of innocent children (both Israeli and Palestinian), quoting studies, including those offered by journalists from Haaretz and the Israeli human rights organization, BTselem, which studies document the brutality and arbitrary practices of the IDF, or making an academic comparison between the plight of Palestinians trapped inside the Gaza Strip and the plight of Jews inside the Warsaw Ghetto during the early period of WW II, makes me either a Nazi or a self-hating Jew? Instead he comes back to post a belated response to another comment regarding ancient history.
I would challenge him to read the more recent and fabulous story of “The Palestinian Bar Mitzvah” that you linked to, but I doubt he is interested in reading anything about the here and now if it doesn’t fit his myopic, Zionist world view.
Report thisBy Robert, July 25 at 11:33 am #
By cann4ing, July 24 at 7:57 pm #
Wow, Robert. That is a remarkable story. It should be in every U.S. newspaper. Id suggest that you contact TD directly and ask that they post it in their report section.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ernest...I do agree that this real story should be in every U.S. newspaper. I am going to contact TD and request from them to post it in their report section as you suggested. I’ll keep you posted on outcome.
I have forward it to every person that I know & many other scholar’s e-mail. I am going to e-mail it to Amy Goodman.
Report thisBy Robert, July 25 at 11:20 am #
Caterpillar fashion
07.24.2008 | Haaretz
By Gideon Levy
“Israel might be able to go on claiming that it will not be the first to introduce nuclear weapons into the Middle East, but it cannot do the same regarding another weapon of mass destruction: the bulldozer. The claim that terror has adopted an original new weapon, a “new fashion” as the public security minister put it, once again shows how convenient it is for us to present a one-sided and distorted picture.
The bulldozer as a destructive and even lethal weapon was not invented by the Palestinians. They are merely imitating an Israeli “fashion” that is as old as the state, or at least as old as the occupation. Let us forget for a moment the 416 villages Israel wiped off the face of the earth in 1948 - that was before there were D9 bulldozers - and focus on a more modern fashion. In Israel’s hands the bulldozer has become one of the most terrifying weapons in the territories. The only difference between the Palestinians’ murderous bulldozer and the Israeli bulldozer is in color and size. As usual, ours is bigger, much bigger. There is no similarity between the small backhoe the Palestinian terrorist was driving and the fearsome D9 driven by Israel Defense Forces soldiers.
From the dawn of the occupation, Caterpillar has been a major arms supplier to Israel, no less than those who provide planes, cannons and tanks. Not for nothing are peace activists trying to call for a boycott of the manufacturer. Israel has sown almost unimaginable destruction using heavy equipment. Go to Rafah, stopping in Khan Yunis on the way, and see the results of the destruction scattered there to this day. Whole neighborhoods razed, the contents of houses - possessions and memories - crushed under the treads. Have you ever seen a street after being “stripped” by a bulldozer? Cars are crushed like tin cans and homes become piles of rubble, along with their contents. Any street in Rafah looks much worse than King David Street in Jerusalem this week.
In 2004, for example, 10,704 Palestinians were made homeless after the IDF destroyed 1,404 homes, mostly in Gaza, due to “operational needs.” In the Jenin refugee camp, Israel destroyed 560 homes; the legendary bulldozer driver “Kurdi” told how he would swig whiskey as he “turned Jenin into a soccer field.” In Operation Rainbow, another bulldozer operation, Israel destroyed 120 homes in one day in the Brazil camp in Rafah. Only someone who was in Rafah and Khan Yunis at the time can understand what our excellent bulldozers did.
Do not say that our bulldozers only destroy but do not kill. Who killed peace activist Rachel Corrie if not a bulldozer whose driver, according to witnesses, saw her before he crushed her to death? And what about the Shubi family in the Nablus casbah - a grandfather, two aunts, a mother and two children - crushed under bulldozers? And who killed Jamal Faid, a handicapped man from the Jenin camp, whose wheelchair only was found under the ruins of his house, with his body never recovered? Was that not bulldozer terror?
The Palestinians discovered the bulldozer quite late. What is good for us is good for them. And how do our security experts propose to fight the new fashion? By demolishing the houses of the terrorists. With bulldozers, of course.”
http:
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11& ar=1913
Report thisBy Sepharad, July 24 at 9:49 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Dear Nisser Ahmed al Naik,
It is such a relief to hear from someone who actually knows something of Arab/Jewish relations throughout history. As you say, Al Fadil, Ib’n Rush’d, Maimonides and Salah-ah-din were good friends who, in different ways, relied on and trusted one another. Maimonides did most of his writing in Arabic, including his work “Guide for the Perplexed.” (He envied Ib’n Rush’d, who had no problem reconciling philsophy and science with his God. Maimonides himself struggled with not knowing whether his God existed, and died still uncertain. He nevertheless did his best to hold the Jewish communities in Morocco and Egypt together.) He was a very wise man, not too “holy” to be politically astute, and also an excellent physician. Maimonides considered Salah-ah-din a truly great man, and served him as best he could though Salah-ah-din pushed himself despite Maimonides’ nagging,continued to sleep outdoors on long, strenuous campaigns, and died too young. As Salah-ah-din requested, after his death Maimonides watched over his sons who ruled different lands in the caliphate, guiding them through court treacheries as well as advising them on their diets and other health-promoting habits that we moderns would recognize.
Their lives and this period have always inspired me: it seems ludicrous that Arabs and Jews should be at each other’s throats the last couple of centuries. I’m working on several related books—Islamic Spain, Reconquista, Inquisition, then the Crusades—but since have 9/11 put that aside to try to understand what went wrong between two peoples so much alike, so much in common, children of the same lands and the same father Abraham.
Like you, I believe religious extremism wherever it occurs is dangerous, and blame it for many of the problems between the Israelis and the Arabs as well as Iranians (though I think the Arab elites have perpetuated, deliberately, the greater part of the Palestinians’ problems). I’m a secular Jew, progressive politics, have family in Israel who’ve been there for five generations now, since our great-great-grandfather ran away to Palestine from a Romanian pogrom in 1828—and have a few Arab and Iranian friends, though current events can strain our connections. One thing we all have in common is that most of us are not religious,which makes it easier to appreciate the beauties of our traditions and customs without feeling that we are betraying our Gods. On the other hand, I have no problems with people who are believers, as long as they tolerate people of different or no beliefs. Non-believers aren’t “better” than anyone else. To me, matters of God and the hereafter are mysteries; often find myself, after arguing hotly with either an atheist or a hyper-fundamentalist, saying “OK, enough already. I don’t know and neither do you.")
You raise some interesting points re second-class citizens, which I’ll respond to in my next post. Have an ailing mare out in back I have to check on and tend to before my husband and I go to bed, so ... more later. Thank you for being there.
Report thisBy cann4ing, July 24 at 7:57 pm #
Wow, Robert. That is a remarkable story. It should be in every U.S. newspaper. I’d suggest that you contact TD directly and ask that they post it in their report section.
Report thisBy Robert, July 24 at 6:04 pm #
THE PALESTINIAN BAR MITZVAH
July 24, 2008 at 8:48 am (Israel, Palestine, Soldier Brutality)
“The following essay was written by Bassam Aramin, the father of the gorgeous child pictured at the left. Abir was only 10 years old when she was brutally murdered by Israeli soldiers while at play in her schoolyard.
Bassam is an active member of a Palestinian/Israeli organisation known as Combatants for Peace. Despite his personal loss and suffering, he has never lost his vision for peace in this region.
The following is a personal account of the continuing struggle ..
My son Arab is 14, just past the age that his Jewish Israeli peers are celebrating their Bar Mitzvahs. This ceremony in Jewish culture is a rite of passage that marks a boys entrance into the realities and responsibilities of adulthood. And last week, my son experienced something akin to the Palestinian Bar Mitzvah.
It was a beautiful day on Friday the 12 July when Arab went with his friends to the beach in Tiberias. He spent all of his time in the days leading up to the trip trying to convince me that I should let him go. At first I refused hes young to be traveling so far in a group without his parents. But then I remembered the regret I still feel about the death of my daughter Abir.
Abir was ten when she was killed by Israeli occupation forces on 16 January 2007 in front of her school in Anata. That morning, when she asked her mother and me for permission to play with her friends after school, Id refused. I told her, Dont even think of coming home late, come back right away so you can prepare for your next exam. And she answered me with the last words I ever heard from her, petulant and innocent. Well, Im going to be late. She was angry with me. She was late that day, but not because she met her friends. A bullet from an Israeli border patrolman found her instead, and she never came back. I regret having refused her request, not knowing that it would be her last that she would be late despite me and despite herself.
When I saw how much Arab wanted to go, I thought of Abir and gave my permission with the condition that he look after himself and be in constant phone contact with me.
Arab and his friends Rafet, Saleh and Mohammad got themselves ready for a day at the beach, and the bus set out at 7:00am. There were about 45 passengers: Arab and nine of his peers, who range in age from 14 to 17; the rest were families and children and a group of girls Arabs age, all legal residents of Israel with East Jerusalem IDs. I was pleased with how happy Arab was during the time he called to check in. Arab loved Abir fiercely, and her death was an awful blow especially to him, the oldest of her siblings. I was so glad to hear joy in his voice again.
At 11:00pm Arab called me and said they had almost made it back and hed be home in half an hour. But 11:30 came and went. At exactly 12:00am I called him, angry that he was late. He answered in a hushed voice with words that chilled me.”
=============
Click on URL for the rest the story regarding how Israel’s IDF brutalizes Palestinian children…
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/07/24/the-palest inian-bar-mitzvah/
Report thisBy Tony Wicher, July 23 at 10:53 pm #
I’m not too worried. I wish all Zionists would follow Lieberman, go Republican, and get crushed in November.
Report thisBy cann4ing, July 23 at 8:16 pm #
Robert, it’s worse than I thought. Check out Keith Olbermann on Count Down. Lieberman not only met with and praised Rev. John Hagee, but he compared that Christian fundamentalist nut case to--Moses!
Report thisBy Robert, July 23 at 6:08 pm #
Israeli Army examines shooting video
07.20.2008 | Reuters
by
Jul 20 - Video of an Israeli soldier apparently shooting a blind-folded Palestinian detainee at close range has been released by an Israeli human rights group.
B’Tselem say the incident took place during protests against Israel’s West Bank barrier about two weeks ago.
The video is blurred when the gunfire echoes and it is unclear whether the Palestinian was hit.
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11& ar=1900
Report thisBy Robert, July 23 at 6:02 pm #
Ernest...Check this out & who some of the speakers are:
Washington-Israel Summit
CUFI’s Third Annual Washington-Israel Summit in Washington, D.C.
at the Washington Convention Center
July 21-24, 2008
Your Chance to Vote for Israel
We’re going back to Washington for Christians United for Israel’s Third Annual Washington-Israel Summit on July 21 to July 24. You need to be there with us!
We’re bringing together some of the most influential leaders and thinkers in Washington to update you on recent developments in the Middle East and in Washington. We’re holding a Night to Honor Israel down the street from the Capitol with Senator Joseph Lieberman and Pastor John Hagee. And we’re going to Congress so that each of you can share your support for Israel directly with your elected officials. You won’t want to miss our largest and most important Summit yet!
Israel’s critics are speaking out and making gains. Our intelligence community is ignoring the threat of a nuclear Iran. More voices in Congress are calling for an end to aid to Israel. And the Administration may soon pressure Israel to divide Jerusalem. With all of these threats emerging, it is more important than ever that pro-Israel Christians make their voices heard! CUFI’s Washington Summit is your chance to make a difference. Join us in Washington!
http://www.cufi.org/site/PageServer?pagename=events_wa shington_summit
Report thisBy cann4ing, July 23 at 3:43 pm #
Robert, on the plus side, there was this:
“Obama is visitng Jerusalem and the occupied West Bank. In some of his most even-handed comments on the Israel-Palestine issue to date, Obama said the US government should recognized what he called the Palestinians’ ‘legitimate difficulties.’
Senator Obama: “What I think can change is the ability of the United States...to be actively engaged in the peace process and to be concerned and recognize the legitimate difficulties that the Palestinian people are experiencing right now. And recognize that it is not only in the interest of the Palestinian people that their situation improves,...it’s also in the interest of the Israeli people, because it is going to be very difficult for Israel to ever feel secure if you don’t have some sense of opportunity and prosperity and stability with its--its neighbors.”
Despite past statements suggesting one-sided support for Israel, “Palestinian lawmaker Hanan Ashrawi said Obama is nonetheless raising hopes for a change in US policy.”
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/7/23/headlines#4
On the negative side, despite being presented with a petition by the J Street Project bearing more than 40,000 signatures pleading with him not to do so, Joe Liebermann met with the right-wing Christian fundamentalist Hagee.
Report thisBy Robert, July 23 at 9:40 am #
ISRAELI STYLE JUSTICE
July 23, 2008 at 6:44 am (Israel, Occupied West Bank, Palestine, Soldier Brutality)
(Ben Heine © Cartoons)
Israeli shooter sent back to unit
An Israeli soldier detained after being filmed opening fire at a bound and blindfolded Palestinian from close range has been released from custody.
The soldier was sent back to his unit after lawyers argued he did not pose a danger to anyone, Israeli reports said. Obviously the lawyers do not consider Palestinians to be anyone.
He was shown firing a rubber coated bullet at the detainees foot as other soldiers stand around watching.
The footage was taken by a Palestinian girl living nearby and released Israeli human rights campaigners.
Israeli Defence Minister Ehud Barak condemned the incident saying it was grave and wrong and that the military would exact the full extent of the law. Full extent of the law apparently means being returned to active duty so he might kill a Palestinian next time rather than just wounding him.
Human rights group BTselem released the footage on Sunday. The shooting happened two weeks earlier in Nilin in the West Bank, scene of frequent Palestinian anti-occupation demonstrations.
Israeli press reports say the soldier told investigators that his commander had told him to shoot the Palestinian, who has been identified as Ashraf Abu Rahma. Why wasnt the commander investigated as well?
The Israeli army issued a statement calling the incident grave and in direct contradiction of its values. yet nothing was done about it
Mr Abu Rahma was treated for a bruised toe by army medics and has not filed a complaint with the military. The military would deny receiving such a complaint even if it was filed. They would then proceed to deny it as they have done in other instances.
BTselem has distributed dozens of cameras to West Bank Palestinians with the aim of recording human rights abuses by the Israeli army and Jewish settlers.
Last month, it released footage showing an apparent assault by masked stick-wielding settlers against Palestinian farmers.
See the original of this article incuding a video of the incident HERE
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/07/23/israeli-st yle-justice/
Report thisBy cann4ing, July 21 at 7:55 am #
Robert, it is unfortunate but in the tiny minds of the Zionists, any news that is critical of Israel’s brutal occupation is “biased.” In their minds, it matters not whether a Noam Chomsky or a Norm Finkelstein speaks truth about the apartheid regime erected by Israel in the West Bank. Zionism is a racist ideology. It vilifies the Palestinian and extols the virtues of the IDF in much the same way as racist propaganda during the Jim Crow regime in the American South once vilified the African-American at the same time it extolled the virtues of the KKK.
Racist ideologies create fear and loathing of the other--a process of dehumanization that creates a psychic distance that the perpetrators and the atrocities they commit as virtuous. Consider “Without Sanctuary” a gruesome pictorial of lynching in America which quoted a contemporaneous justification of the practice as applied to blacks who cast “lustful eyes on white women,” which appeared in a Little Rock newspaper. “This may be ‘Southern brutality’ as far as the Boston Negro can see, but in polite circles, we call it Southern chivalry, a Southern virtue that will never die.”
The level of dehumanization in the Zionist is so great that any who question the gruesome practices of the IDF is seen as immoral, biased, a Nazi or a self-hating Jew. There reasoning is not logical. To the contrary, it is immune to logic, so the only thing left open to them is to either ignore exposure of their illogical rants (which, so far, Sepharad has done since I called him out) or to respond with name-calling rants (Lefty’s usual response to your academic posts).
Report thisBy Mossada, July 21 at 1:30 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
The rich eat the poor. They always did and they always will.
Then the heads of state lay wreaths at the tomb of the unknown soldier. Cannonizing and Paying lip service to men and women who die for the benefit of Government policy. The same government which serves their paymasters, the Corporations.
Right now the new bad guys, according to the mainstream media, are the subhuman dirty stinking muslims. Before that it was the communists. Before that it was Indians. Before that it was the South (or North depending on which side of the gun barrel you were facing). Before that it was the British. On and on, fight after fight, war after war.
And so the Pentagon, Wall Street, the Weapons manufacturers, Oil companies and Corporations, which contol the media, play their little game. And all the while we all salute the flag blindly, unquestioning, and just sing from the same hymn sheet provided by our betters.
Meanwhile the jobs are gone. The future is gone. For the common man (and woman) the community is dissolute and disconnected, dispairing and fearful. The corporations rule us and we are distracted by the cheap flag waving Fox News expose with weapons we will use to sort out these uppity foreigners (currently Iran) who get out of line. Never mind what the CIA did in the past. We,The Good Guys, have to deal with their “evil”.
The govenment learned their lesson well from Vietnam. Now the Soldier is projected as a saint in the News Media and Hollywood. Not for his or her benefit, rather as a political firewall to anyone questioning their government´s actions.
Report thisBy Robert, July 20 at 6:46 pm #
By Sepharad, July 18 at 11:23 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
“Lefty,
Dont let the reincarnated Nazis (Robert is probably the worst but some of the others are also pretty frightening)get you down. The guy who thinks its OK to be a Nazi because his mother is a Russian Jew is probably just another one of the self-hating Jews David Mamet writes about. The problem with so many of these guys, whatever their background, is that they do most of their research on the Net and as you know its possible to find any kind of narrowly focused BS googling around. The regular media coverage is somewhat better but since the 70s late there has been a lot of anti-Israel bias out there too. (Honest Reporting monitors and attempts to work with such outlets: theyve gotten many major retractions from everyone from Reuters to BBC, where facts have been scrambled and pictures faked.)”
===========================
Sepharad...from what I can see what you are trying to say here is that to criticize Israel’s and its IDF’s actions against Palestinians/Arabs is in your mind “nazism”, anti-semitic, self-hating Jews and so on.
I see that you are hurling those AIPAC methods & tactics to attempt to silence people who try to tell the truth about those poor Israel’s IDF/army who have every sophisticated US made weapon to use against mostly an unarmed civilian population.
Those Hamass rockets that you mentioned are nothing compared to what Israel has in its many large stockpiled arsenals. Our July 4th firecrackers are more accurate than those homemade so-called rockets.
BTW, the Internet has more accurate reporting of the news and/or facts when compared with our AIPAC controlled News media/corporations. I do watch Amy Goodman on DEMOCRACYNOW. Amy is a brilliant journalist.
Sephard, I am so glad that we have several scholars like Norman Finkelstein, Noam Chomsky, Sara Roy, Jennifer Leuwenstein, Avnari, Levi and many more who are on the side of humanity, justice, international law, fairness & truth. I am glad that they are NOT on the side Israel’s IDF brutalities, zionism’s racism & Apartheid policies.
You can hurl those well known AIPAC’s tactics/method to try to silence the truth...it just ain’t going to work on a lot of people who know the truth and are NOT intimidated to bring it out for all to see & read.
Report thisBy cann4ing, July 20 at 9:02 am #
Shepharad: I’m having a little trouble following your logic, or perhaps more accurately, the lack thereof. Please explain how calling for an end to a 40 year brutal occupation and the killing of innocent children (both Israeli and Palestinian), quoting studies, including those offered by journalists from Haaretz and the Israeli human rights organization, B’Tselem, which studies document the brutality and arbitrary practices of the IDF, or making an academic comparison between the plight of Palestinians trapped inside the Gaza Strip and the plight of Jews inside the Warsaw Ghetto during the early period of WW II, makes one either a Nazi or a self-hating Jew?
Report thisBy Nissar Ahmed A. Naik, July 19 at 11:26 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
I enjoyed reading the very balanced and scholarly views of Sepharad.
In response I have the following.
Maimonides, Al Fadil, Ibn Rashd, and Salahuddin not only co-existed in relative peace, there is reason to believe they were on very friendly terms. Maimonides was greatly influenced by Al Ghazali along with Ibn Rashd. He even had his secular education in a Moroccan University. Considering all these things he was an astonishing combination of both Muslim and Jewish influence. Many Muslim scholars respected him. Even today he is acknowledged as a great Arab thinker in Arab academic circles.
I am not a scholar of history but I think the survival of Jewish and Christian communities in an ocean of Muslim population for a period of more than 1400 years in a vast area could not have been possible without a remarkable degree of tolerance. If you compare it to what happened in just a decade in Spain after the fall of Granada you can understand its significance. Considering the vast area and long period under consideration there are bound to be some aberrations.
This tolerance is reflected in the continuous history of the Coptic Church which even today retains its ancient Coptic language for religious purposes. This tolerance was aptly summed up by the chief Catholic Cleric of Palestine when he said vehemently in a BBC interview: We have absolutely no problem with Hamas, nor are we afraid of it, after all we have lived together peacefully with Muslims for last 1400 years without any problem, but we have serious problems with Israel.
Coming to the point of migration of Jews from Arab countries to Israel, I seriously doubt discrimination against them was the main reason. I can say this, because the idea of a Jewish state had such a magnetic pull on Jews everywhere that Jews have almost disappeared from where I come from, i.e. the western coast of India near Bombay and also from Kerala where there was absolutely no discrimination against them. All of them have migrated to Israel.
I do not like fundamentalists of any hue, Islamic or otherwise. But if the term Islamic fundamentalist means strict follower of Islamic laws literally, then a fundamentalist can never be part of any forced conversion, because of the Islamic injunction There is no compulsion in religion. An Islamic fundamentalist cannot contradict a Hadith (tradition or saying of the prophet). Let me quote here a Hadith: If you encounter a funeral of a Jew or a Christian in the street, offer your shoulder.
Islam respects the scriptures and prophets of both Christians and Jews and calls these communities People of Scriptures. A devote Muslim never utters the name of any of the Jewish / Christian prophets without the appendage Peace be upon him. For example Musa Alaihi Salaam means Moses peace be upon him-.
Coming to the point of second class citizens, if Israel has a glaring example of second class citizens (Israeli Arabs) in the 21st century, can we blame the people in less enlightened times?
Report thisBy mrmb, July 19 at 9:35 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
A few points to ponder:
Zionism in all its forms is to be rejected. AIPAC has gotten a lot of bad press in the alternative news media and rightfully so. The problem with AIPAC is not that its a neo crazy zionist bastion but that its a zionist organization. To assume that a liberal or left leaning zionist organization is fine is to fall in a dangerous trap.
Zionism in all its stripes is racist, militarist and expansionist and its a deviant political ideology.
If the new voices that will be jewish reject zionism and apply judaic principles to their vision and dialogue then we will get somewhere with arabs and muslims. Else its a trap for all parties concerned. It will only prolong the zionist grip on our polity.
The dialogue needs to become part of a broader inter faith dialogues that have been going on and ever expanding.
Leaving this sensitive issue to morons like king george and nancy pelosi and barack and mccane or perez and their like is pure insanity.
Report thisBy Robert, July 19 at 11:13 am #
Thanks Ernest,
I’ll look up & search the “J street project”. I was not familiar with it. We need many brave people to help stop this mad killing of innocent children & people on both sides of the conflict.
Report thisBy cann4ing, July 19 at 6:55 am #
Robert, thanks for the statistical update. It looks like the ratio of the number of Palestinian vs. Israeli children has increased from 5:1 when Levy posted his article in Haaretz in 2004 to nearly 10:1 by 2008. Either way, the real question is why the combined total of 1,173 innocent children (both Israeli & Palestinian) killed as a result of this illegal occupation has not brought a more significant alignment between Israeli and Palestinian progressives sufficient to force an end to the madness. It should cause all Americans of good will to say, “enough!”
But these statistics, any many other salient features of IDF brutality, go largely unreported in the U.S. corporate media. So the brutality, the bulldozing of Palestinian homes, the erection of new settlements and an apartheid wall on Palestinian territory, arbitrary arrests, detentions, torture and the many roadblocks that make life impossible for Palestinians continue, unabated.
That is what makes the J Street Project so significant. Who better to tell it like it is than a group of progressive American Jews who are not afraid of speaking truth to power? No doubt, if the project begins having a measure of success, the Zionists will excoriate them with the same label they pinned on Prof. Finkelstein, whom they refer to as a “self-hating Jew.”
Report thisBy Sepharad, July 18 at 11:23 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Lefty,
Don’t let the reincarnated Nazis (Robert is probably the worst but some of the others are also pretty frightening)get you down. The guy who thinks it’s OK to be a Nazi because his mother is a Russian Jew is probably just another one of the self-hating Jews David Mamet writes about. The problem with so many of these guys, whatever their background, is that they do most of their research on the Net and as you know it’s possible to find any kind of narrowly focused BS googling around. The regular media coverage is somewhat better but since the ‘70s late there has been a lot of anti-Israel bias out there too. (Honest Reporting monitors and attempts to work with such outlets: they’ve gotten many major retractions from everyone from Reuters to BBC, where facts have been scrambled and pictures faked.)
There is tons of printed information out there, fantastic research libraries and archives can be accessed increasingly, but people are forgotting how to read books and how to find and evaluate documents and primary sources. In earlier posts I’ve tried to put some balanced sources out there but doubt anyone will actually look them up. Objectivity is becoming a lost art, and trendy advocacy is the thing today. (I’m an old-school journalist and, having edited both history and journalism review periodicals, have watched this with a sinking heart for quite a while.)
To understand Israel, Jews and Arabs takes a great deal of study, but everyone who wants to have an opinion is not willing to make the effort. Also, many younger people do not have the same emotional reaction to Israel that people who remember the ‘48 and ‘67 wars do. The very fact that Israel survived repeated massive attacks by the Arabs makes non-thinking people who want to be seen as cool, liberal, hip, progressive, and not understanding that Israel was and remains the underdog, pop on keffiyehs and automatically support the Arabs, who are in fact as a group many times richer, far more violent, ridiculously more numerous and possess far more land, most of it with oil (of which Israel has not a drop).
Unfortunately, part of the problem is that the only Jews many people approve of are dead Jews. Anne Frank is a heroine, but Jews who refuse to be murdered are villainous. The IDF does what it can to prevent the death of noncombatants, but Hamas and Hezbollah, death-worshipping fascists who understand that dead civilians make good pr, launch missiles targeting civilians and fight in the midst of heavily populated areas. They also have a tenuous relationship with the truth, and are damned good at pr. (Israelis were never very good at spin; they can be tactless, blunt, and don’t bother sugarcoating the truth.) Every Israeli and every IDF member is not a saint: the 900,000 Jews and their descendants who were expelled from Arab countries after the ‘48 war and taken in by Israel tend to be less trusting, skeptical of any peace prospects. Also there’s a real problem with orthodox extremists—fundamentalists, whether Jewish, Christian or Moslem, aren’t into compromise. Yet most Zionists were atheists, from Ariel Sharon to Amos Oz, and the majority of Israelis want a secular government. On the whole, Israelis, under constant attack by those who want to exterminate them, respond far more moderately than any other country would. I resent blanket accusations of brutal IDF behavior. My nephew, a captain, was killed during the 2nd intifada in Jenin. His unit was pursuing fighters, and securing buildings from which weapons had been fired. A Palestinian onlooker told him that an elderly man in a wheelchair had been trapped on the second floor. Gabriel told his men to wait, walked into the building to get the man out before his troops entered to take up positions. It was booby-trapped and blew up, killing him.
Israel WILL fight to the last man, woman and child if need be to survive. But they’d rather cooperate with neighbors who accept their right to exist.
Report thisBy Tony Wicher, July 18 at 9:08 pm #
Re cann4ing, July 18 at 7:56 pm
Most likely, but you never know.
Report thisBy cann4ing, July 18 at 7:56 pm #
TW--I believe our Lefty suffers from a form of psychopathology brought on by dehumanization embodied in Zionist ideology which causes him to see all Arabs and Muslims as less than human. It entails what Professors Phillip Zimbardo & Sam Keen describe as the “hostile imagination” that “is created by virtually every nation’s propaganda on its path to war....” “The process, Zimbardo tells us, “begins with stereotyped conceptions of the other...conceptions of the other as worthless, the other as all-powerful...the other as a fundamental threat to our cherished values and beliefs. With public fear notched up and enemy threat imminent, reasonable people act irrationally, independent people act in mindless conformity and peaceful people act as warriors. Dramatic visual images of the enemy on posters, magazine covers, movies, and the internet imprint on the recesses of the limbic system, the primitive brain, with the powerful emotions of fear and hate.”
The dramatic impact of dehumanization found its embodiment in the testimony of Vietnam vet Scott Camile’s testimony at the Feb. 1971 “Winter Soldier” hearings in Philadelphia. After he described how members of his unit, in the presence of a Lt. Col., beheaded two people, leaving their heads on stakes in the middle of a field, Camile was asked whether the men in his unit felt they could do anything they wanted to the Vietnamese. Camile replied: “It wasn’t like they were humans, like we were--you know, we were conditioned to believe that...this was for the good of our country, and anything we did was okay. And like, when you shot someone, you didn’t think you were shooting a human. They were a gook or a Commie, and it was okay.”
While it may be possible for a professional therapist to pierce the cortical cataract brought on by the severe degree of Lefty’s hostile imagination, I sincerely doubt that any effort by any of us to try to do so via TD will have any effect whatsoever.
Report thisBy Tony Wicher, July 18 at 6:54 pm #
Robert,
Thanks, Robert. I have been working hard on ways of saying things that get through to people instead of antagonizing them. Lefty is a tough nut to crack, I must say.
Report thisBy Robert, July 18 at 6:54 pm #
By cann4ing, July 18 at 5:36 pm #
“TW, I would respectfully disagree that anything Robert has posted about Zionism equates to a Nazi stereotype of Jews. You confuse Zionism (an ideology held not only by right wing Jews but many right wing Christian fundamentalists) with the ethnicity of being Jewish--something to which I have at least a 50% claim. My father was British but my mother was a Russian Jew. My Jewish friends tell me that makes me Jewish even though Im an atheist--one
has to wonder where, in their minds, that left my father.
The post from Robert which triggered your erroneous observation entailed a remark IDF killers not spending any time in prison even for killing children. If you think this a stereotype, you are uninformed.
Consider this exerpt from the 10/17/04 article by Gideon levy, Killing children is no longer a big deal which was originally published in Haaretz and later quoted by Prof. Finkelstein in Beyond Chutzpah.
More than 30 Palestinian children were killed in the first two weeks of Operation Days of Penitence in the Gaza Strip....Whereas in the overall count of all victims of the intifada the ration is three Palestinians killed for every Israeli killed, when it comes to children the ratio is 5:1. Accrding to BTselem...even before the current operation in Gaza, 557 Palestinian minors (below the age of 18) were killed....42 of the children who were killed were 10; 20 were seven; and eight were two years old....The youngest are 13 newborn infants who died at checkpoints during births.
With horrific statistics like this, the question of who is a terrorist should have long since become very burdensome for every Israeli. Yet it is not on the public agenda. Child killers are always the Paestinians, the soldiers always only defend us and themselves, and the hell with the statistics.
...An army that kills so many children is an army with no restraints, an army that has lost its moral code.
Was Mr. Levy, an Israeli, exhibiting a Nazi stereotype about Zionists or the IDF? Obviously not, and neither did Robert.
By the way, TW & Robert, I previously posted as Ernest Canning.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ernest, I knew it was you all the way.
Take a look at the statistics regarding the number of children killed since Sept.29, 2000:
1050 Palestinian children killed; 123 Israeli children.
The total number of Palestinian children killed(alone) by Israel’s IDF is almost the same as the total number of Israelis killed = 1057.
The total number of Palestinian killed = 4,862.
-----------
Statistics
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the worlds major sources of instability. Americans are directly connected to this conflict, and increasingly imperiled by its devastation.
It is the goal of If Americans Knew to provide full and accurate information on this critical issue, and on our power and duty to bring a resolution.
Statistics
Last Updated: July 17, 2008
Israeli and Palestinian Children Killed Since September 29, 2000
123 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,050 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000. (View Source)
Chart showing that approximately 5 times more Palestinian children have been killed than Israeli children
Israelis and Palestinians Killed Since September 29, 2000
Chart showing that 3 to 4 times more Palestinians have been killed than Israelis.
1,057 Israelis and at least 4,862 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000. (View Source)
------------------------
Click on URL to see statics & charts:
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
Report thisBy Robert, July 18 at 6:16 pm #
By Tony Wicher, July 18 at 3:56 pm #
Robert,
It was my mother who told me that its not only the truth of what you say that counts, but also how you say it.
============================
By Tony Wicher, July 18 at 3:17 pm #
Robert,
By verbal terrorism I just mean your confrontational style. As a peace advocate I would like to promote dialogue between the opponents on this issue. There is no other way to make progress. When I see you and lefty going at it, it is verbal war, not dialogue.
=======================
Tony,
First, from what you say about what your mother told you regarding truth & how one says it...your mother has great wisdom.
Second, you bring up “lefty” as an example for dialogue. Tony, you know as well as I do...including Ernest that “lefty” is a strange mental case. I have seen some of your comments with “lefty” & if you want to call it dialogue that is ok with me.
You can reason with “lefty” all you want to...no problem from my side.
In the meantime, keep up the good work for peace & take care.
Report thisBy PatrickHenry, July 18 at 6:15 pm #
Believe in Karma?
I do, especially when a people bring it on themselves.
History repeats itself from time to time.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html
Report thisBy cann4ing, July 18 at 5:36 pm #
TW, I would respectfully disagree that anything Robert has posted about Zionism equates to “a Nazi stereotype of Jews.” You confuse Zionism (an ideology held not only by right wing Jews but many right wing Christian fundamentalists) with the ethnicity of being Jewish--something to which I have at least a 50% claim. My father was British but my mother was a Russian Jew. My Jewish friends tell me that makes me Jewish even though I’m an atheist--one
has to wonder where, in their minds, that left my father.
The post from Robert which triggered your erroneous observation entailed a remark IDF killers not spending any time in prison even for killing children. If you think this a stereotype, you are uninformed.
Consider this exerpt from the 10/17/04 article by Gideon levy, “Killing children is no longer a big deal” which was originally published in Haaretz and later quoted by Prof. Finkelstein in “Beyond Chutzpah.”
“More than 30 Palestinian children were killed in the first two weeks of Operation Days of Penitence in the Gaza Strip....Whereas in the overall count of all victims of the intifada the ration is three Palestinians killed for every Israeli killed, when it comes to children the ratio is 5:1. Accrding to B’Tselem...even before the current operation in Gaza, 557 Palestinian minors (below the age of 18) were killed....42 of the children who were killed were 10; 20 were seven; and eight were two years old....The youngest are 13 newborn infants who died at checkpoints during births.
“With horrific statistics like this, the question of who is a terrorist should have long since become very burdensome for every Israeli. Yet it is not on the public agenda. Child killers are always the Paestinians, the soldiers always only defend us and themselves, and the hell with the statistics.
“...An army that kills so many children is an army with no restraints, an army that has lost its moral code.”
Was Mr. Levy, an Israeli, exhibiting a Nazi stereotype about Zionists or the IDF? Obviously not, and neither did Robert.
By the way, TW & Robert, I previously posted as Ernest Canning.
Report thisBy Tony Wicher, July 18 at 3:56 pm #
Robert,
It was my mother who told me that it’s not only the truth of what you say that counts, but also how you say it.
Report thisBy Tony Wicher, July 18 at 3:17 pm #
Robert,
By “verbal terrorism” I just mean your confrontational style. As a peace advocate I would like to promote dialogue between the opponents on this issue. There is no other way to make progress. When I see you and lefty going at it, it is verbal war, not dialogue.
Report thisBy Mossada, July 18 at 3:01 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
By William the Concurer, July 18 at 1:35 pm #
William
What kills me is the shamless cynicism of Polititians today, even with the benifit of history. The criminally insane can´t get away with what these guys have been doing.
A simple case of GREED masquerading as Patriotism. That´s why I never trust someone who wears his patriotism on his sleeve. Or in this case on his lapel. Total...utter...Scoundrels. I think Dr. Johnson would agree.
Just what has the American flag become? A totem, an object of blind idolatry, a political tool for Politicians to manipulate the American people for their own nefarious projects?
These Neocons aren´t the idealogues they claim to be. By sheer coincidence they always seem to be in a position of financially benefiting from Military action. I could call them animals but I don´t recall animals doing that for a fast buck.
The Iranians are no saints but if they are paranoid they have good reason to be. The CIA along with the British overthrew Irans ELECTED Prime Minister and installed the ruthless Shah. For the next 25 years the Iranians got Titty Bars, Casinos and a murderous Secret Police. I think the West had more to offer Iran than this Trio of gifts from the CIA.
God forbid this point of history should penetrate such flag waving bigots as Bill O Reilly or the Fox News Arm chair Hawks or Israel. That would be a minor miracle.
Report thisBy Robert, July 18 at 2:14 pm #
By cann4ing, July 18 at 10:27 am #
TW--I was surprised by your criticism of Robert on this. Zionism is a racist ideology that dehumanizes both Arabs and progressive Jews who seek a more harmonious relationship with their Arab neighbors. Roberts critique of Zionism is not a critique of the Jewish people as such any more than those offered by the J-Street Project--an organization formed by progressive American Jews to counter the undue influence of AIPAC, whose neoconservative goals they reject.
If you havent already done so, I would strongly urge that you read Norm Finkelsteins scholarly Beyond Chutzpah: On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History.
Criticism of Zionism no more amounts to the rejection of Jews and Israelis as a people than criticism of Nazism amounts to a criticism and rejection of all Germans. The reality is that you can find valid comparisons between the plight of Palestinians in Gaza and the separation wall and the early days of the Warsaw Ghetto at the outset of WW II. Honest examination of that comparison does not make one anti-Semitic. Likewise, I find nothing racist in Roberts many astute evaluations of the impact of Israels 40 year brutal occupation of territories beyond its 1967 borders--a continuing violation of UN Resolution 242.
===================
Thanks Cann4ing. Your comments are always read by me . I see you standing on the side of the TRUTH. You are NOT watching from the sidelines.
I too was surprised by Tony’s remarks & criticism. In his last comment, he says this about my comment:
“But the way he pictures Zionists does sound like a Nazi stereotype of Jews, doesnt it? Its inflamatory, a kind of verbal terrorism, calculated to raise Jewish defenses and so not helpful to the peace process.”
Wow...a kind of verbal terrorism! That is another surprise from TW. I am not offended. I know where to put me feet. I am on the side of Norman Finkelstein and its an honor for my position.
I am on the side of the TRUTH.
Again, many thanks with kind regards.
Report thisBy William the Concurer, July 18 at 1:35 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Mossada
Yes I made a comparison to people like Cheney who resemble Crassus. In his case it would have to be boiling oil.
Sadly modern political leaders are cowards. They would never lead Armies into battle where they could get hurt.
Report thisBy Tony Wicher, July 18 at 11:20 am #
By cann4ing, July 18 at 10:27 am #
Hey, I agree with everything you say. I’m already a big fan of Finkelstein, as you can see from my last post. Many of Robert’s facts are accurate, too. But the way he pictures Zionists does sound like a Nazi stereotype of Jews, doesn’t it? It’s inflamatory, a kind of verbal terrorism, calculated to raise Jewish defenses and so not helpful to the peace process. But I loved the link he gave us to the Finkelstein interview. That’s the way to do it! Be objective, dispassionate, crystal clear, but don’t dehumanize your opponent.
Report thisBy Tony Wicher, July 18 at 10:52 am #
Robert,
I watched the discussion between Finkelstein and the Sharon senior advisor. It was great. I’m a Finkelstein groupie. He absolutely blew holes in the Sharon advisor’s arguments. Israel and the United States have been blocking the enforcement of the clear will of the international community and undermining international law for 30 years. This had better change under an Obama administration or I will join those who say there’s no difference between Obama and Bush.
Yet the Sharon advisor is presented as a human being with legitimate concerns for the safety of Jewish people living in the OPT. IF your policy is to defy international law and build illegal settlements, then, sure, we can’t have people being blown up, no matter who they are, and nobody should excuse deny or minimize the 1000 Israelis blown up by suicide bombers for any reason at all. Such actions do constitute murder and do provide Israelis with justification for building the wall and for killing 5000 in “self-defense”. These actions should therefore be condemned by everyone, including those who have the welfare of Palestinians at heart. Yet by far the greatest responsibility does lie with Israel (and their U.S. enabler) for failing to comply with international law and so creating this situation, as Finkelstein states with his usual crystal clarity.
Report thisBy cann4ing, July 18 at 10:27 am #
TW--I was surprised by your criticism of Robert on this. Zionism is a racist ideology that dehumanizes both Arabs and progressive Jews who seek a more harmonious relationship with their Arab neighbors. Robert’s critique of Zionism is not a critique of the Jewish people as such any more than those offered by the J-Street Project--an organization formed by progressive American Jews to counter the undue influence of AIPAC, whose neoconservative goals they reject.
If you haven’t already done so, I would strongly urge that you read Norm Finkelstein’s scholarly “Beyond Chutzpah: On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History.”
Criticism of Zionism no more amounts to the rejection of Jews and Israelis as a people than criticism of Nazism amounts to a criticism and rejection of all Germans. The reality is that you can find valid comparisons between the plight of Palestinians in Gaza and the separation wall and the early days of the Warsaw Ghetto at the outset of WW II. Honest examination of that comparison does not make one anti-Semitic. Likewise, I find nothing racist in Robert’s many astute evaluations of the impact of Israel’s 40 year brutal occupation of territories beyond its 1967 borders--a continuing violation of UN Resolution 242.
Report thisBy Robert, July 18 at 9:38 am #
By Tony Wicher, July 18 at 8:54 am #
Robert, July 18 at 7:43 am #
“Robert,
Israels water problem is an interesting fact. Sucking it all up for their own use is a great way to finish the ethnic cleansing job that is the essence of the Zionist project - Palestinians can either die of thirst or move elsewhere.
However, I dont like the way you talk about Israel and Zionism because you deny the humanity of Israelis and Zionists as much as you say they deny the humanity of the Arabs, which makes you sound like a Nazi.”
=========================
Tony...many Israelis, many zionists & many IDF do see “Arabs/Palestinians” as sub-humans. One can see Israel’s IDF murdering Palestinian women & children almost on a weekly basis.
IDF killers have NO value for Palestinian lives. They see them as animals and/or sub-humans.
IDF KILLERS NEVER SPEND ONE HOUR IN PRISON FOR KILLING A PALESTINIAN...A 9 YEAR CHILD...OR ANY OTHER...THESE ARE FACTS!
Take a look at what Ariel Sharon’s adviser has to say about Palestinians during a recent short debate with Norman Finkelstein.
~~~~~
Norman Finkelstein versus Ariel Sharon’s Advisor on The Wall
Riz Khan - Israel’s Separation Wall - 10 July 08
07.10.2008 | YouTube.com
The Israeli separation wall making its way through the West Bank cuts to the heart of the Palestinian-Israeli issue:
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11& ar=1861
Report thisBy Tony Wicher, July 18 at 8:54 am #
Robert, July 18 at 7:43 am #
Robert,
Israel’s water problem is an interesting fact. Sucking it all up for their own use is a great way to finish the ethnic cleansing job that is the essence of the Zionist project - Palestinians can either die of thirst or move elsewhere.
However, I don’t like the way you talk about Israel and Zionism because you deny the humanity of Israelis and Zionists as much as you say they deny the humanity of the Arabs, which makes you sound like a Nazi. Arabs are dogs and Israelis are inhuman monsters. This leads to nothing good. No, Zionists are human beings who are primarily motivated by fear. “Never forget” is their cry. Their fear that anti-Semitism will rise up again and lead to a second Holocaust is very real. They think the only answer to this threat is “Jewish power”, and they are very clever, dedicated and persistent. What they do not understand is that this very fear, this attitude of “never forget” which leads to the drive for Jewish power and to the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, is engendering and perpetuating the very anti-Semitism they fear.
Report thisBy wag, July 18 at 8:33 am #
Many thanks to Scott Ritter for this critically important article. I could not find House Resolution 362. Senate Resolution 580 has something to do with recognizing pollinators or something like that. Could Scott correct these references?
Report thisAgain, thank you for your work.
By Robert, July 18 at 7:43 am #
Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:20 am
ISRAELS RIGHT TO WATER VS-
THE SUB-HUMAN̶