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|  Iraq Vets Break Silence on Devastating Realities of WarPosted on Jul 12, 2007
Chris Hedges and Laila Al-Arian (Page 2)
Intelligence
Fifteen soldiers we spoke with told us the information that spurred these raids was typically gathered through human intelligence--and that it was usually incorrect. Eight said it was common for Iraqis to use American troops to settle family disputes, tribal rivalries or personal vendettas. Sgt. Jesus Bocanegra, 25, of Weslaco, Texas, was a scout in Tikrit with the Fourth Infantry Division during a yearlong tour that ended in March 2004. In late 2003, Sergeant Bocanegra raided a middle-aged man’s home in Tikrit because his son had told the Army his father was an insurgent. After thoroughly searching the man’s house, soldiers found nothing and later discovered that the son simply wanted money his father had buried at the farm.
After persistently acting on such false leads, Sergeant Bocanegra, who raided Iraqi homes in more than fifty operations, said soldiers began to anticipate the innocence of those they raided. “People would make jokes about it, even before we’d go into a raid, like, Oh fucking we’re gonna get the wrong house,” he said. “ ’Cause it would always happen. We always got the wrong house.” Specialist Chrystal said that he and his platoon leader shared a joke of their own: Every time he raided a house, he would radio in and say, “This is, you know, Thirty-One Lima. Yeah, I found the weapons of mass destruction in here.”
Sergeant Bruhns said he questioned the authenticity of the intelligence he received because Iraqi informants were paid by the US military for tips. On one occasion, an Iraqi tipped off Sergeant Bruhns’s unit that a small Syrian resistance organization, responsible for killing a number of US troops, was holed up in a house. “They’re waiting for us to show up and there will be a lot of shooting,” Sergeant Bruhns recalled being told.
As the Alpha Company team leader, Sergeant Bruhns was supposed to be the first person in the door. Skeptical, he refused. “So I said, ‘If you’re so confident that there are a bunch of Syrian terrorists, insurgents...in there, why in the world are you going to send me and three guys in the front door, because chances are I’m not going to be able to squeeze the trigger before I get shot.’ ” Sergeant Bruhns facetiously suggested they pull an M-2 Bradley Fighting Vehicle up to the house and shoot a missile through the front window to exterminate the enemy fighters his commanders claimed were inside. They instead diminished the aggressiveness of the raid. As Sergeant Bruhns ran security out front, his fellow soldiers smashed the windows and kicked down the doors to find “a few little kids, a woman and an old man.”
In late summer 2005, in a village on the outskirts of Kirkuk, Specialist Chrystal searched a compound with two Iraqi police officers. A friendly man in his mid-30s escorted Specialist Chrystal and others in his unit around the property, where the man lived with his parents, wife and children, making jokes to lighten the mood. As they finished searching--they found nothing--a lieutenant from his company approached Specialist Chrystal: “What the hell were you doing?” he asked. “Well, we just searched the house and it’s clear,” Specialist Chrystal said. The lieutenant told Specialist Chrystal that his friendly guide was “one of the targets” of the raid. “Apparently he’d been dimed out by somebody as being an insurgent,” Specialist Chrystal said. “For that mission, they’d only handed out the target sheets to officers, and officers aren’t there with the rest of the troops.” Specialist Chrystal said he felt “humiliated” because his assessment that the man posed no threat was deemed irrelevant and the man was arrested. Shortly afterward, he posted himself in a fighting vehicle for the rest of the mission.
Sgt. Larry Cannon, 27, of Salt Lake City, a Bradley gunner with the Eighteenth Infantry Brigade, First Infantry Division, served a yearlong tour in several cities in Iraq, including Tikrit, Samarra and Mosul, beginning in February 2004. He estimates that he searched more than a hundred homes in Tikrit and found the raids fruitless and maddening. “We would go on one raid of a house and that guy would say, ‘No, it’s not me, but I know where that guy is.’ And...he’d take us to the next house where this target was supposedly at, and then that guy’s like, ‘No, it’s not me. I know where he is, though.’ And we’d drive around all night and go from raid to raid to raid.”
“I can’t really fault military intelligence,” said Specialist Reppenhagen, who said he raided thirty homes in and around Baquba. “It was always a guessing game. We’re in a country where we don’t speak the language. We’re light on interpreters. It’s just impossible to really get anything. All you’re going off is a pattern of what’s happened before and hoping that the pattern doesn’t change.”
Sgt. Geoffrey Millard, 26, of Buffalo, New York, served in Tikrit with the Rear Operations Center, Forty-Second Infantry Division, for one year beginning in October 2004. He said combat troops had neither the training nor the resources to investigate tips before acting on them. “We’re not police,” he said. “We don’t go around like detectives and ask questions. We kick down doors, we go in, we grab people.”
First Lieut. Brady Van Engelen, 26, of Washington, DC, said the Army depended on less than reliable sources because options were limited. He served as a survey platoon leader with the First Armored Division in Baghdad’s volatile Adhamiya district for eight months beginning in September 2003. “That’s really about the only thing we had,” he said. “A lot of it was just going off a whim, a hope that it worked out,” he said. “Maybe one in ten worked out.”
Sergeant Bruhns said he uncovered illegal material about 10 percent of the time, an estimate echoed by other veterans. “We did find small materials for IEDs, like maybe a small piece of the wire, the detonating cord,” said Sergeant Cannon. “We never found real bombs in the houses.” In the thousand or so raids he conducted during his time in Iraq, Sergeant Westphal said, he came into contact with only four “hard-core insurgents.”
Arrests
Even with such slim pretexts for arrest, some soldiers said, any Iraqis arrested during a raid were treated with extreme suspicion. Several reported seeing military-age men detained without evidence or abused during questioning. Eight veterans said the men would typically be bound with plastic handcuffs, their heads covered with sandbags. While the Army officially banned the practice of hooding prisoners after the Abu Ghraib scandal broke, five soldiers indicated that it continued.
“You weren’t allowed to, but it was still done,” said Sergeant Cannon. “I remember in Mosul [in January 2005], we had guys in a raid and they threw them in the back of a Bradley,” shackled and hooded. “These guys were really throwing up,” he continued. “They were so sick and nervous. And sometimes, they were peeing on themselves. Can you imagine if people could just come into your house and take you in front of your family screaming? And if you actually were innocent but had no way to prove that? It would be a scary, scary thing.” Specialist Reppenhagen said he had only a vague idea about what constituted contraband during a raid. “Sometimes we didn’t even have a translator, so we find some poster with Muqtada al-Sadr, Sistani or something, we don’t know what it says on it. We just apprehend them, document that thing as evidence and send it on down the road and let other people deal with it.”
Sergeant Bruhns, Sergeant Bocanegra and others said physical abuse of Iraqis during raids was common. “It was just soldiers being soldiers,” Sergeant Bocanegra said. “You give them a lot of, too much, power that they never had before, and before you know it they’re the ones kicking these guys while they’re handcuffed. And then by you not catching [insurgents], when you do have someone say, ‘Oh, this is a guy planting a roadside bomb’--and you don’t even know if it’s him or not--you just go in there and kick the shit out of him and take him in the back of a five-ton--take him to jail.”
Tens of thousands of Iraqis--military officials estimate more than 60,000--have been arrested and detained since the beginning of the occupation, leaving their families to navigate a complex, chaotic prison system in order to find them. Veterans we interviewed said the majority of detainees they encountered were either innocent or guilty of only minor infractions.
Sergeant Bocanegra said during the first two months of the war he was instructed to detain Iraqis based on their attire alone. “They were wearing Arab clothing and military-style boots, they were considered enemy combatants and you would cuff ’em and take ’em in,” he said. “When you put something like that so broad, you’re bound to have, out of a hundred, you’re going to have ten at least that were, you know what I mean, innocent.”
Sometime during the summer of 2003, Bocanegra said, the rules of engagement narrowed--somewhat. “I remember on some raids, anybody of military age would be taken,” he said. “Say, for example, we went to some house looking for a 25-year-old male. We would look at an age group. Anybody from 15 to 30 might be a suspect.” (Since returning from Iraq, Bocanegra has sought counseling for post-traumatic stress disorder and said his “mission” is to encourage others to do the same.)
Spc. Richard Murphy, 28, an Army Reservist from Pocono, Pennsylvania, who served part of his fifteen-month tour with the 800th Military Police Brigade in Abu Ghraib prison, said he was often struck by the lack of due process afforded the prisoners he guarded.
Specialist Murphy initially went to Iraq in May 2003 to train Iraqi police in the southern city of Al Hillah but was transferred to Abu Ghraib in October 2003 when his unit replaced one that was rotating home. (He spoke with The Nation in October 2006, while not on active duty.) Shortly after his arrival there, he realized that the number of prisoners was growing “exponentially” while the amount of personnel remained stagnant. By the end of his six-month stint, Specialist Murphy was in charge of 320 prisoners, the majority of whom he was convinced were unjustly detained.
“I knew that a large percentage of these prisoners were innocent,” he said. “Just living with these people for months you get to see their character.... In just listening to the prisoners’ stories, I mean, I get the sense that a lot of them were just getting rounded up in big groups.”
Specialist Murphy said one prisoner, a mentally impaired, blind albino who could “maybe see a few feet in front of his face” clearly did not belong in Abu Ghraib. “I thought to myself, What could he have possibly done?”
Specialist Murphy counted the prisoners twice a day, and the inmates would often ask him when they would be released or implore him to advocate on their behalf, which he would try to do through the JAG (Judge Advocate General) Corps office. The JAG officer Specialist Murphy dealt with would respond that it was out of his hands. “He would make his recommendations and he’d have to send it up to the next higher command,” Specialist Murphy said. “It was just a snail’s crawling process.... The system wasn’t working.”
Prisoners at the notorious facility rioted on November 24, 2003, to protest their living conditions, and Army Reserve Spc. Aidan Delgado, 25, of Sarasota, Florida, was there. He had deployed with the 320th Military Police Company to Talil Air Base, to serve in Nasiriya and Abu Ghraib for one year beginning in April 2003. Unlike the other troops in his unit, he did not respond to the riot. Four months earlier he had decided to stop carrying a loaded weapon.
Nine prisoners were killed and three wounded after soldiers opened fire during the riot, and Specialist Delgado’s fellow soldiers returned with photographs of the events. The images, disturbingly similar to the incident described by Sergeant Mejía, shocked him. “It was very graphic,” he said. “A head split open. One of them was of two soldiers in the back of the truck. They open the body bags of these prisoners that were shot in the head and [one soldier has] got an MRE spoon. He’s reaching in to scoop out some of his brain, looking at the camera and he’s smiling. And I said, ‘These are some of our soldiers desecrating somebody’s body. Something is seriously amiss.’ I became convinced that this was excessive force, and this was brutality.”
Spc. Patrick Resta, 29, a National Guardsman from Philadelphia, served in Jalula, where there was a small prison camp at his base. He was with the 252nd Armor, First Infantry Division, for nine months beginning in March 2004. He recalled his supervisor telling his platoon point-blank, “The Geneva Conventions don’t exist at all in Iraq, and that’s in writing if you want to see it.”
The pivotal experience for Specialist Delgado came when, in the winter of 2003, he was assigned to battalion headquarters inside Abu Ghraib prison, where he worked with Maj. David DiNenna and Lieut. Col. Jerry Phillabaum, both implicated in the Taguba Report, the official Army investigation into the prison scandal. There, Delgado read reports on prisoners and updated a dry erase board with information on where in the large prison compound detainees were moved and held.
“That was when I totally walked away from the Army,” Specialist Delgado said. “I read these rap sheets on all the prisoners in Abu Ghraib and what they were there for. I expected them to be terrorists, murderers, insurgents. I look down this roster and see petty theft, public drunkenness, forged coalition documents. These people are here for petty civilian crimes.”
“These aren’t terrorists,” he recalled thinking. “These aren’t our enemies. They’re just ordinary people, and we’re treating them this harshly.” Specialist Delgado ultimately applied for conscientious objector status, which the Army approved in April 2004.
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Jump to Comments
By John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 28, 2007 at 6:08 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
(Still no response)
There is probably more evidence for 911 than there was for the Reichstag stunt. It is all historical and it is plenty enough to have a full investigation.
1. Rise of the Neocon supremicist movement at the U. of Chicago and Cornell.
2. Subversive nature of this movement
3. Plan for the New American Century as a subversive movement.
4. Rise of the Bush crime family syndicate.
5. Neocon headquarters in the pentagon and collusion with selected air force officers and the Israeli government.
6. Treason Act ready before 911.
7. Anthrax stunt against Democratic leaders.
8. Murder of Wellstone family.
6. Iraq war con.
You don’t have to know anything about the pentagon or skyscrapers to launch a real investigation. There is even more evidence in the cover ups.
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, July 28, 2007 at 12:55 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Ernest Canning on 7/27 at 7:04 pm
(752 comments total)
ITW, who said I didnt want to read your post? I read it. I was not impressed by it. I think Dr. Joness scientific explanations are superior. No need to get emotional because I wasnt impressed by your post.
EC: Don’t worry, I won’t. I didn’t expect to change your mind. I have not seen compelling evidence to change my view of it, and I’ve seen a lot of easily discounted nonsense passed off as proof.
Report thisBy John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 27, 2007 at 9:47 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
There are many Jews with honor. They are no better or worse than anyone else, except tradition makes it so.
Report thisBy cann4ing, July 27, 2007 at 7:04 pm #
ITW, who said I didn’t want to read your post? I read it. I was not impressed by it. I think Dr. Jones’s scientific explanations are superior. No need to get emotional because I wasn’t impressed by your post.
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, July 27, 2007 at 6:40 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
ohn Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming on 7/27 at 1:17 pm
(Unregistered commenter)
I still think you are a liar and that fly under nothing but a false flag.
********
Yeah, your feeble bigoted mind’s made up and you don’t want to get your ignorance tainted with facts.
I think YOU were shit out by the Great Pumpkin into a toxic waste heap full of dioxin because he didn’t want to bring your filth to all the little boys and girls on Halloween.
And I have just as much evidence for what I think as you have for what you think.
Only what I think is more interesting, creative, and just plain funny.
Report thisBy John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 27, 2007 at 1:17 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
I still think you are a liar and that fly under nothing but a false flag.
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, July 27, 2007 at 11:20 am #
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John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming on 7/27 at 10:23 am
(Unregistered commenter)
All neocons are liars. You are a neocon. Therefore you are a liar.
Your logic is impeccable. But, of course, your premise is absurd.
I am no neocon, no fan of neocons, and accept nothing they put forth as valid.
As I said you just keep throwing lis and shit at the wall to see what sticks. But it’s splattering all over you.
You don’t know shit from shinola about me, but since I KNOW you are an ignorant idiot and show it all the time, you say whatever you can invent. You don’t even show any imagination.
Report thisBy John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 27, 2007 at 10:23 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
All neocons are liars. You are a neocon. Therefore you are a liar.
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, July 27, 2007 at 8:22 am #
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ohn Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming on 7/26 at 10:23 am
(Unregistered commenter)
There is no right to exist for any nation. Israels right to exist rests upon 150 nuclear weapons. I suppose you have dual citizenship, which means that you support Israel first and the United States second. Youve made your choice.
******
I guess you figure if you throw enough shit at a wall something will stick? So you just make up any lies you want and toss them out there.
I am NOT a dual citizen, nor an Israeli. I simply do not see any viable evidence that the destruction of Israel (and the subsequent murder or fleeing of 5.5 million) people can possibly be in the best interests of the USA or the Middle East.
I know that’s hard to see for you red-neck Jew-hating bigots who cut your teeth believe Jews have horns and are responsible for every evil in the world, from 9/11 to Hurricane Katrina, to the Tsunami in Asia a few years ago.
I can’t help your WILLFUL ignorance. Only you can. But I can label your bullshit as such.
Report thisBy the 1Sgt, July 26, 2007 at 4:24 pm #
#89737 by John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming on 7/26 at 10:23 am
(Unregistered commenter)
There is no right to exist for any nation. Israels right to exist rests upon 150 nuclear weapons. I suppose you have dual citizenship, which means that you support Israel first and the United States second. Youve made your choice.
=====================================================
A choice clearly illustrated with the responses given by ITW to date. Time and again we see the same pattern. When given a choice the answer is favor of the Jewish state by Jewish Americans, over the interest of the United States, the country that bore them. The current policies of the United States favor Israel and are partial to one side--so much so we have attacked and invaded Israel’s enemies. First Iraq and soon will be Iran.
This during a time when Israel practices APARTHEID with Arabs in their own homeland, caging them by the hundreds of thousands in a place called GAZA and the WEST BANK.
Then people here ask..."why do they hate us”?
Report thisBy John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 26, 2007 at 10:23 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
There is no right to exist for any nation. Israel’s right to exist rests upon 150 nuclear weapons. I suppose you have dual citizenship, which means that you support Israel first and the United States second. You’ve made your choice.
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, July 26, 2007 at 6:10 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
EC:
You don’t want to read what I post? Fine, nobody’s holding you at your keyboard at gunpoint.
You want to live in your pipe dreams that make no sense about “Jewish” conspiracies to alienate the BEST friend Israel has, well, that’s your problem.
I’ve lived to see PLENTY of them, all bogus and I’ve studied even more. From Joe Hill’s conviction, to the Palmer raids, to Sacco&Vanzetti;, to Charles Beard’s scurrilous implication that FDR was behind Pearl Harbor, to the assassinations of the 60’s, to Flight 800, Foster’s suicide and now, 9/11.
All bogus conspiracy theories. Joe Hill was killed for being IWW, Period.
Building 7 COULDN’T possibly have collapsed? Well, the buffs said Oswald COULDN’T have fired the shots--Oliver Stone made a big movie saying that.
All garbage. Oswald fired the shots--the early interpretation of the evidence, particularly the timing was all wrong. When the timing was fixed, all the anomalies vanished.
I’m intellectually dishonest? Because I KNOW BS when I see it (and smell it)? Because I trust FIRST my own analysis and brainpower, not the analysis of “authorities” solely because they have a title?
The evidence of “demolition” at the WTC just doesn’t wash and I’ve laid out the reasons why. YOU brushed them aside because in your reductionist thinking they contradict what you “know” to be true:
That a team of dedicated terrorists managed to bring down the WTC by a method even Tom Clancy knew--and DESCRIBED in “Debt of Honor”.
Occam’s Razor, Baby, Occam’s Razor.
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, July 26, 2007 at 5:52 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming on 7/25 at 9:57 pm
(Unregistered commenter)
I am not a Jew-hating, Israel despising Fascist. You are, or you wouldnt use such insults as your standard fair. As far as Im concerned you are a vicious neo-con and a traitor. (No, I didnt read all your posts. Should I. People like you always return to the same old vomit.)
*****
Ludicrous. I’m Jewish. I defend Israel’s right to exist. I’m a Democrat.
Your assertions are so, well, weird, that you make GodSend look sane.
Report thisBy John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 25, 2007 at 9:57 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
I am not a Jew-hating, Israel despising Fascist. You are, or you wouldn’t use such insults as your standard fair. As far as I’m concerned you are a vicious neo-con and a traitor. (No, I didn’t read all your posts. Should I. People like you always return to the same old vomit.)
Report thisBy cann4ing, July 25, 2007 at 8:49 pm #
No ITW, you feign politeness then return to your intellectual dishonesty. I have witnessed it too many times, and, frankly I’m tired of it. As I said in the previous post, I find the scientific explanations of a physicist like Dr. Steven E. Jones far more convincing. You can use the usual slander, “tin-hat conspiracy theorist,” as dismissive denigration all you want. The fact is that there are competing “theories” as to the source of the collapse of all three buildings. There is the “official theory” that the collapse was caused by fire--one that does not appear to square with basic science, and which bears a heavy burden of proof given than no high rise building in human history ever collapsed due to fire prior to 9/11. Then there are the unofficial “theories.”
Of all the explanations offered, Dr. Jones’s appears to be on the most solid, scientific footing. There is not one word in your argumentative posts that convinces me that the “official theories” are even credible.
Insult, yell and scream all you want. As I stated before, I am interested in the science, not in your political opinions. While I would be the first to join with you in rejecting the paranoid rantings of some posters that 9/11 is a Zionist plot, I suspect that your vociferous refusal to accept the science behind the issue of controlled demolition is in part motivated by your need to deny anything could connect this episode to one or more Zionists, though, from my perspective, if there was complicity, I suspect it had everything to do with Cheney’s insatiable lust for power, period!
Finally, your comment about the height of WTC 1 & 2 is intriguing and one worthy of a further open and full investigation. It may well explain why the squibs shooting out at higher levels (e.g. high level demolition) would have been needed in addition to the numerous explosions eye witnesses claim they heard occurring in the basements of the twin towers. It would also serve to explain the variation between the method of collapse of WTC 1 & 2 vs. WTC 7, though all three buildings collapsed into their own footprints, and although the ultra-high temperatures remained in the rubble for such an extended period, which is precisely what occurs when thermite is used in demolition.
As to WTC 7, the evidence is beyond overwhelming. The collapse was precisely what you see in controlled demolition. Controlled demolition is consistent with Larry Silverstein’s statement that they were given orders to “pull-it” and with Guiliani’s televised statement made on 9/11 to the effect that FEMA gave him 10-15 minutes advance notice that the building was going to collapse.
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, July 25, 2007 at 6:24 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming on 7/25 at 10:42 am
(Unregistered commenter)
I think that inherit the wind uses insults to make people angry and then in all the confusion he offers weak arguments. You can tell that something is fishy because he uses the prescribed Republican insults and slanders in order to get things rolling. I think he fears that Israel was involved in 911, and so he wants to keep everyones attention on minutiae.
Actually, I don’t think you’ve really read my posts. Otherwise you’d KNOW I have opposed the war in Iraq since BEFORE it began. You’d know I cannot stand 99% of the Republican Party and want George W. Bush and Richard Cheney impeached, ousted then tried and convicted on charges of treason. You’d know I think Jimmy Carter was the wisest, most honest and most-far-seeing President since FDR--he was just lousy at Washington politics.
You’d know I want us OUT of Iraq and to BACK OFF on Iran. You’d know I DESPISE the fact the Bush BLEW an unbelievable opportunity to make peace with Iran after 9/11.
I have been called every kind of name by you Jew-hating Israel-despising fascists who want me to SHUT UP so you can enjoy your circle-jerk and get all horny for the idea of somebody dropping a mega-ton hydrogen bomb on Israel--because you are all such “humanists”.
I’m not afraid that Jews were behind 9/11. I’m afraid that fanatics like you will manufacture phony evidence to “prove” it--not enough to get convictions, but just enough to start what you really want: another purging of Jews--this time from America.
Report thisBy John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 25, 2007 at 10:42 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
I think that “inherit the wind” uses insults to make people angry and then in all the confusion he offers weak arguments. You can tell that something is fishy because he uses the prescribed Republican insults and slanders in order to get things rolling. I think he fears that Israel was involved in 911, and so he wants to keep everyone’s attention on minutiae.
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, July 25, 2007 at 4:56 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Ernest Canning on 7/24 at 9:34 pm
(695 comments total)
Whom, which is more reliable the science of a renouned physicist, Dr. Steven E. Jones, reflected in powerful and convincing academic papers and presentations or ITW and his NOVA program? Hmmm, thats a tough one. And your explanation, ITW, for the symetrical collapse of WTC 7 into its own footprint in the span of 6.6 seconds; WTC 7 which was not struck by a plane, is precisely what, ITW?
As you have repeated done with respect to other topics, your intellectual dishonesty is transparent and there for all to see.
***********
EC: I have TRIED to be polite to you, but you just keep coming back with insults and slander.
The physics of the collapse of the Twin Towers is not as complicated as you tin-foil hat conspiracy buffs try to make out.
If your analysis of the collapse of the twin towers is fundamentally WRONG (and it is) then the collapse of bldng 7 is no longer a valid component of your conspiracy theory.
See, you all have your logic backwards--the collapse of 7 being harder to explain does NOT indicate that the towers didn’t collapse as described--that’s typical ex post fact bad reasoning.
You have to first PROVE that the towers could not have collapsed as described, which I find ludicrous. The contained fire from jet fuel easily burns hot enough to burn the temper out of steel--you don’t need to melt the steel at all. Once the temper is gone, it’s not steel anymore, but soft iron, incapable of supporting the floors above. ALL the floors above fall like a giant sledge on the floor below, far exceeding its load limits.
Don’t believe me? Any carpenter with a hammer and a nail KNOWS you can’t just lean on the nail with the hammerhead and drive it--you have to SWING the hammer to develop kinetic energy. Simple, high school physics on how acceleration amplifies force.
So once the floors above drive down like a pile driver, the floor below collapses and now the ADDITIONAL weight is joined to hit the floor below, which collapse quicker and quicker. This isn’t hard to understand.
I also find the “demolition” theory absurd. Why? Several OBVIOUS reasons.
1)Because when buildings are demolished they are far, far smaller than the WTC. NOBODY has ever brought down a skyscraper of this order of magnitude.
2) EVERY film I’ve ever seen of a controlled demoltion, the building was ALWAYS wider than it is tall--occasionally you get fairly tall buildings but NEVER anything where the height is so much greater than the width.
3) (I think of this as the idiot argument--only an idiot would deny it) Placing charges to demolish and implode a building is not only a highly skilled profession, it is an INCREDIBLY time-consuming activity.
It can take MONTHS to plan and locate charges to bring down a fairly small structure.
During those months the demolition engineers REQUIRE complete and total access to the structure.
Most of the internals of the building must be removed in advance.
Charges are placed on each and every floor at key structural elements and timed to go off sequentially from top to bottom (there’s an order from inside to outside but that’s beyond my knowledge).
So the “demolition” argument requires lots of demolition engineers--LOTS of them--and nobody noticing.
They have to poke into EVERY nook and cranny in the buildings--and nobody notices.
They have to place THOUSANDS of charges--and nobody notices.
They have to run HUNDREDS of miles of wire--and nobody notices.
They have to test their connections and timing--and nobody notices.
They have to violate EVERY guiding principle of demolition safety--and nobody notices
They have break ALL these rules on a type and size of structure that NOBODY has ever demolished before.
They have to keep it all secret--despite the guys in hard hats, the explosive placements, the wiring, etc.
NOW you see why the demolition fantasy is pure crap.
Report thisBy John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 24, 2007 at 9:45 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Crooks cherry pick the facts, use gobbledeegook and gibberish, and act triumphal. Republicans are schooled in crookery because no one stands up to them, hoping they will just go away. For most lazy cowards, Hitler has to slap them in the face before they realize the danger. Republicans belong in Leavenworth.
Report thisBy cann4ing, July 24, 2007 at 9:34 pm #
Whom, which is more reliable the science of a renouned physicist, Dr. Steven E. Jones, reflected in powerful and convincing academic papers and presentations or ITW and his NOVA program? Hmmm, that’s a tough one. And your explanation, ITW, for the symetrical collapse of WTC 7 into its own footprint in the span of 6.6 seconds; WTC 7 which was “not” struck by a plane, is precisely what, ITW?
As you have repeated done with respect to other topics, your intellectual dishonesty is transparent and there for all to see.
Report thisBy John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 24, 2007 at 11:45 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
You don’t have to know all the details of the murder weapon (airplanes or explosives) to know that a murder is suspected. Usually murders are inside jobs. The external evidence is overwhelming of a conspiracy involving Israel, Pakistan, the GOP, etc.
Who benefited from 911? What is the psychopathic character of the Bush crime syndicate?
Still no real investigation. The bogus investigations after one year and one half speak volumes. All the other coverups speak volumes.
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, July 24, 2007 at 3:57 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
cyrena on 7/23 at 3:26 pm
(488 comments total)
#88797 by Inherit The Wind on 7/23 at 4:14 am
You didnt read my post Wind, because of your illness. I said, that while the airplanes obviously hit the towers, (we saw THAT much with our own eyes) the airplanes DID NOT, (and I will repeat this again) the airplanes ARE NOT responsible for the collapse of the WTC. The towers fell in their tracks, because of all the explosives that had been placed on site.
Im not gonna have this conversation with you again. The AIRPLANES that we ALL saw crash into the towers, DID NOT bring them down.
Do ya get that?
*********
Sure did. And I got that you just contradicted what you said in post 88763, which was:
.I repeat, those airplanes DID NOT bring down ANY of the buildings at the WTC on 9-11. They may or may not have crashed into those towers,
**************
“May or may not have crashed into those towers”? Now you are changing your tune. I keep saying this:
YOU ARE ENTITLED TO YOUR OWN OPINIONS BUT YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO YOUR OWN FACTS!
Fact: A commercial jet liner loaded with passengers crashed into each of the WTC towers on 9/11/2001. Disputing that one fact alone is a mark of insanity.
All you tin-foil-hat types should look at the NOVA episode on the towers’ collapse. All the phony reasons why the planes couldn’t have brought down the towers were disproven years ago.
Meanwhile, I’m spending my time on something far more real and less magical than your ludicrous fantasies. Of course, I mean the latest Harry Potter book.
At least THERE the magic makes sense and follows a consistent internal logic. But, then again, Ms. Rowling never expected anyone to actually BELIEVE she was writing anything but entertaining make-believe.
Report thisBy John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 23, 2007 at 9:26 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
There is probably more evidence for 911 than there was for the Reichstag stunt. It is all historical and it is plenty enough to have a full investigation.
1. Rise of the Neocon supremicist movement at the U. of Chicago and Cornell.
2. Subversive nature of this movement
3. Plan for the New American Century as a subversive movement.
4. Rise of the Bush crime family syndicate.
5. Neocon headquarters in the pentagon and collusion with selected air force officers and the Israeli government.
6. Treason Act ready before 911.
7. Anthrax stunt against Democratic leaders.
8. Murder of Wellstone family.
6. I’m sure there is plenty more.
7. Treason
Report thisBy cann4ing, July 23, 2007 at 5:47 pm #
ITW, when it comes to 9/11 I am more interested in what the science shows than what the politicians claim.
The 10/8/06 paper by Dr. Steven E. Jones, a Physicist and Archemetrist, entitled “Why Indeed did the WTC Buildings Collpase?” examines thirteen separate areas which “challenge government reports and investigate[s] the controlled demolition hypothesis”
“1. Molten Metal: Flowing and in Pools
“2. Observed Tempeeratures around 1000 degreeC and Sulfidation in WTC 7
“3. Near-Symmetrical Collapse of WTC 7
“4. No Previous Skyscraper Collapse Due to Fires [none since either]
“5. Squib-timing during the Collapse of WTC 7
“6. Early Drop of North Tower Antenna
“7. Eyewitness Acounts of Flashes and Loud Explosions
“8 Ejection of Steel Beams and Debris--plumes from the Towers
“9. Rapid Collapses and Conservation of Momentum and Energy
“10 Controlled Demolition ‘Implosions” Require Skill
“11. Steel Column Temperatures of 800 degrees C Needed…
“12. Problems in the NIST Report: Inadequate Steel Temperatures and Tweaked Models
“13. NIST’s Failure to Show Visualizations.”
http://wtc7.net/articles/stevenjones_b7.html
WTC 7, by the way, was “not” struck by a plane. Housing offices of several U.S. intelligence agencies, it was one of the most secure in the nation, rendering it highly unlikely al Qaeda could have planted explosives. On 9/11 it collapsed into its own footprint in the span of 6.6 seconds. A video of its collapse is virtually identical to numerous available videos of buildings involved in controlled demolition.
Report thisBy cyrena, July 23, 2007 at 3:26 pm #
#88797 by Inherit The Wind on 7/23 at 4:14 am
You didn’t read my post Wind, because of your illness. I said, that while the airplanes obviously hit the towers, (we saw THAT much with our own eyes) the airplanes DID NOT, (and I will repeat this again) the airplanes ARE NOT responsible for the collapse of the WTC. The towers fell in their tracks, because of all the explosives that had been placed on site.
I’m not gonna have this conversation with you again. The AIRPLANES that we ALL saw crash into the towers, DID NOT bring them down.
Do ya get that?
Report thisBy John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 23, 2007 at 2:20 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
The one thing that makes Republicans and Nazis most alike is their criminal philosophy which allows them to insult others at will, while ignoring ideas and facts.
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, July 23, 2007 at 4:14 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Cyrena:
Chico Marx said it best: “Who you gonna believe: Me or your own eyes?”
I have friends who SAW the second plane hit the south tower. They didn’t allegedly see a plane. They didn’t see an “alleged” plane--they SAW THE F***ing PLANE CRASH OVER THEIR HEADS, you IDIOT! Got that? The only people who DOUBT there were planes are psychos like you who simply cannot believe that such a simple, elegant, brutal attack could have occurred and that the wonderful, peaceful Islamic jihadists could have been behind it!
Nor do they believe the VERY simple physics that brought down the towers. Only conspiracy theorists psychos like you buy into the “other” cause nonsense.
Cyrena’s definition of “crazy”: Disagreeing with her and NEVER giving in to her crap and never “going away”. See, because Cyrena wants me to shut up and go away, and HAS POSTED THAT, she now says I must be crazy because...I won’t!
Get a life, lady!
Report thisBy John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 23, 2007 at 1:16 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
As a citizen, everyone has the right to believe and say whatever they want. I think that factions within Israel and Saudi Arabia and Pakistan and the U.S were involved in planning and executing 911. Proof? None. But, all the 911 coverups suggest conspiracy. Who benefited? Israel, Saudi Arabia, and the Bushies. Common sense and experience are all we have as citizens. I have an Israeli/US friend who agrees.
Report thisBy cyrena, July 22, 2007 at 9:31 pm #
Comment#88633 by Inherit The Wind on 7/22 at 5:11 am
Besides, theres that wonderful fact that jet fuel only burns at 500 deg F, not enough to soften steel. Im sure youre citing that bullshit as well (jet fuel burns at least 3x hotter than that in open air, and even hotter in enclosed spaces--EASILY hot enough to catastrophic weaken steel by burning out the temper)
Wind, in all of this blather, about jet fuel burn rates, (and Im more than a little bit familiar with jet fuel burn rates, and pretty much everything else that goes with operation a commercial airline operation) how does it lead you to consistently make accusations that I have claimed that the Zionists are behind the 9-11 operation? I have never suggested such a thing, because its never been proven, and as 911truthdog recently posted, WE DONT KNOW who arranged 9-11. Cheney knows, and Im sure there are a few others of his intimate circle that know as well. But beyond that, we dont.
Meantime, heres a news flash .none of your calculations on jet fuel burn rates are worth a damn, because those airplanes did NOT .I repeat, those airplanes DID NOT bring down ANY of the buildings at the WTC on 9-11. They may or may not have crashed into those towers, but let me repeat this for you .THAT DID NOT cause those buildings to turn to dust in less than an hour. Those WTC was blown up with explosives. How they got there, I do not know. The airplanes did not bring those towers down.
Writethat 5000 times, THE AIRPLANES DID NOT BRING DOWN THE WTC.
That should keep you busy for a while.
Report thisBy cyrena, July 22, 2007 at 9:05 pm #
#88636 by Inherit The Wind on 7/22 at 5:21 am
You’re a sickie Wind. And, prior to now, I’d never considered reporting you to the administrators. I’d also never had any reason to know for sure, if you were a man or a woman. Quite frankly, I’d been cutting you some slack, because your postings ring of possible menopausal symptoms. So no, with a handle like ITW, there was no reason to assume that you wouldnt be a woman, though I certainly understand that you could be a man as well. Thing is, I dont much give a shit.
I DO know that youre sick, and that you need some help, and I will of course retain the posting, in the event that I decide to report you. I havent yet, but youre working your way there. Someone in authority should at least be aware of your presence. We live in dangerous times now .the war on terror and all And quite frankly, you sound like you are an explosion waiting to happen.
So yeah, Im posting this to put you on notice. More of this kind of stuff will get you the kind of attention that you are presumably seeking. But, its a cut off your nose to spite your face action, which is ultimately very stupid. You should think before you post anything else. It could come back to haunt you.
Report thisBy M, July 22, 2007 at 8:37 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Everyone is hand in hand in this. Those who already have antisemitic tendencies or who feel alienated economically are blaming ‘the Jews’ but it’s much, much bigger than that. Basically, the Nazis (and lots of them were brought in to work for the CIA after WW2) hate Jews and want to get rid of them. Top-level Zionists do pretty well out of an atmosphere of antisemitism too and they want all Jews, identified or assimilated, to move to Israel because they have a longstanding wish to reestablish the Davidic kingdom (with themselves as the royalty of course). Saudi Arabian royalty wants the US to occupy Iraq to take the pressure off them because of the bases in Saudi Arabia and because Islamists threaten their own power structure. And all these guys, including the Italian mafia/Catholic church, HATE the ‘left’ (i.e anyone who talks about mushy things like equality, workers rights, public education etc etc). So they came up with this brilliant plan (as brilliant as thugs can devise) to achieve total domination. It doesn’t particularly matter to them if everyone suspects it’s an inside job because, if anything, it increases the fear and paranoia that they want to bring about. It’s a pretty depressing scenario. And it’s the ordinary Jew/Christian/Muslim who invariably suffers. Most Jews really are loyal to the country they reside in, many have assimilated to avoid being identified as ‘Jewish’ (e.g converted, taken up non Jewish names etc) but in the end, it’s going to make no difference. The charges of double loyalty invariably surface (with some justification), ordinary Jews face pogroms and getting kicked out again and again. Nazis are happy, Zionists are happy, mafia are happy. Cheap labor becomes abundant again. Life goes on and it happens all over again some time down the line. Ordo ab Chao.
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, July 22, 2007 at 7:25 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
I think you have it backwards Mordecai....YOU are the one trying to silence US.
Are you going to respond to the article I posted or will you just ignore it?
http://www.startribune.com/587/story/564047.html
*****
This is not a hard one to figure out, Schultz: Even the dummies and morons on the Republican side of the aisle have a far better grasp of what is in America’s interest than you ever will. They, at least, aren’t so riddled with hatred for all Jews that they can’t see straight, the way you are.
Report thisBy John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 22, 2007 at 7:23 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Children. Children.
Report thisBy the 1Sgt, July 22, 2007 at 5:51 pm #
#88636 by Inherit The Wind on 7/22 at 5:21 am
(Unregistered commenter)
Cyrena and the 1Sgt:
Is there ANYTHING you two WONT say to try to silence me?
===================================================
I think you have it backwards Mordecai....YOU are the one trying to silence US.
Are you going to respond to the article I posted or will you just ignore it?
http://www.startribune.com/587/story/564047.html
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, July 22, 2007 at 5:21 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Cyrena and the 1Sgt:
Is there ANYTHING you two WON’T say to try to silence me?
Are you SO terrified of having your drug-addled fantasies questioned and held up to scrutiny that you will do or say ANYTHING to shut me up and shut me off?
Why don’t you go whining to the administrators to cut me off:
“ITW is SO unfair!!! He uses logic and facts against us!!!! Boo-Hoo-hoo. And no matter WHAT insults we hurl or invent about him, he keeps coming back!!! WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! IT’S NOT FAIR!!!”
Maybe that will work.
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, July 22, 2007 at 5:11 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
But, we can count on ITW, to always appear, anytime there is a possibility of capturing an innocent and apolitical reader, and turning them into a facist zionist.
The only thing I cant understand, is why ITW doesnt just MOVE to Israel, where all Jews, the world over, are welcome as citizens. And, as long as she stays on her side of the wall theres nothing to fear.
No, I dont expect that to happen, but it just seems like shed be so much happier there, and besides...theyve got all of that medical technology that she could benefit from.
****************
Oh, Horrors! I made a typo! That clearly means I MUST be a Zionist Fascist! But what about you? You can’t even keep the basic grammar of genders straight! You keep adding an ‘s’ in front of “he” when referring to me. If a typo makes me such a bad person, what does THAT make YOU????
I’ll tell you what it makes you: Infantile and unable to cope with getting what you pompously dish out.
Because I don’t subscribe to your nutty-ultra-left-wing tin-foil hat conspiracy fantasies that are now IDENTICAL to the nutty-ultra-right-wing-tin-foil hat crew, that means I have to hate America? Absurd!
And you assholes keep trying to say that. Sorry. I’m an American first. And will be unless you and George Bush get your wish and stifle all dissent and turn us into the fascist state you love. It is my FERVENT desire to prevent him AND you from gutting the American Constitution for political expediency.
Since you think the Arab Moslem nations are such bastions of freedom and liberal openmindedness, and you think (under your foil hat) that America is magically, demonically “possessed” by Jews, why don’t YOU move to one of those Utopias? I’m sure you’ll be happier as you freely wear your head scarf and burkha. You’re free to wear and free not to wear it--if you don’t mind being called a whore, being arrested, beaten and cursed.
Cyrena: You’ll never be a scholar. You buy into the tin-foil hat conspiracy fantasies that Arabs are too stupid to conceive and execute as elegant a plan as 9/11. Sure, no 767 hit WTC South. My friend who was standing under it really just saw a pigeon bang into the building, right? (BTW, he ran out of Bld 7 after North was hit).
Besides, there’s that wonderful fact that jet fuel only burns at 500 deg F, not enough to soften steel. I’m sure you’re citing that bullshit as well (jet fuel burns at least 3x hotter than that in open air, and even hotter in enclosed spaces--EASILY hot enough to catastrophic weaken steel by burning out the temper)
But, since you no scholar, you’ll never let facts clutter up YOUR “truth"--which is the Arab propaganda that “those evil Jews” were behind 9/11.
I’ll bet you still believe that crap that Oswald couldn’t have gotten the shots off that killed JFK. And I’ll bet you still believe in the “magic dancing bullet” as proof there was a conspiracy.
Scholar = Skeptic. Scholar ^= Cynic.
I may not be a pretty boy, but I’ll tell you what: At 210+lbs, shaving every day (face, not legs) I’d make a damn ugly woman. I think I’ll let John Travolta do that, instead.
Report thisBy the 1Sgt, July 22, 2007 at 4:50 am #
During the time Israel was BOMBING and destroying Lebanon with American made weapons, most of them supplied FREE OF CHARGE.(last year)
U.S. House backs Israel 410-8
http://www.startribune.com/587/story/564047.html
WASHINGTON—The House, displaying a foreign affairs solidarity lacking on issues like Iraq, voted overwhelmingly today to support Israel in its confrontation with Hezbollah guerrillas.
The nonbinding resolution is similar to one the Senate passed Tuesday. It harshly condemns Israel’s enemies and says Syria and Iran should be held accountable for providing Hezbollah with money and missile technology used to attack Israel.
Yet as Republican and Democratic leaders rally behind the measure in rare bipartisan fashion, a handful of lawmakers have quietly expressed reservations that the resolution was too much the result of a powerful lobbying force and attempts to court Jewish voters.
“This is the usual problem with any resolution that talks about Israel there are a lot of closet naysayers up there (in Congress), but they don’t want to be a target of the lobby” of Israel, said Eugene H. Bird, president of the Council for the National Interest, a group that harshly condemns Israel’s military campaign.
====================================================
Tell us more about the current “beneficial” relationship, ITW. A relationship in which the representatives of the country are afraid to object to KILLING and destruction by Israel, on a scale second only to the United States.
Report thisBy the 1Sgt, July 22, 2007 at 4:23 am #
#88614 by cyrena on 7/22 at 1:03 am
(452 comments total)
Well 1Sgt:
From the latest comment by Inherit, its pretty clear she didnt get it again.
===================================================
I think everyone else did, and that’s what counts.
This is the behavior you get from Israel activists, be they Americans or foreigners.
When you confront them with their own illogical statement, they cannot respond to it or they twist what was actually said/implied.
Report thisBy cyrena, July 22, 2007 at 1:03 am #
Well 1Sgt:
From the latest comment by Inherit, it’s pretty clear she didn’t get it again. When you said that our relationship with Israel is really NOT to our benefit, and could in fact bring ultimate harm to the innocents of Israel as well, she kicked in with this…
...."You have a truly sick definition of being an American, since it seems to necessitate the destruction of Israle and the slaughter, as you put it, of many innocent people there.>
See what I mean? Nobody (including you) said that being an American necessitates the destruction of Israel, (which ITW mispelled...but she’s forgiven). And, that’s the way it always is with her. Same with lilmamzer.
Absolutely ANY criticism of our dysfunctional relationship with Israel is going to immediately initiate the accusation that you/I/we/anybody, wants to DESTROY Israel. And, since we have heard nothing but this from these posters, (be they one and the same or not)it’s not going to change. Especially if you see that he/she can continue the above statement, with something like this:
..."I see no reason the relationship with Israel cannot and is not mutually beneficial to both nations.”....
Now, assuming that ITW really believes the above, (and...that is what she wrote) we have to assume that she is simply the psychologically dysfunctional person that she is, because no rational person can ever believe this. Obviously, our relationship with Israel has cost us not only BILLIONS of tax payer dollars, for which we have NEVER received the slightest bit of ANYTHING, (I’m still waiting to find out how Israel benefits US, but ITW has never been able to give us any examples of this, or what we might be receiving, for all of this money.)
So, in ITW, you’re dealing with a literate person of book knowlege, who is in denial, and lacking any common sense for how to utilize her literacy. Rather, she uses $100.00 words in place of the less expensive ones, because you can bury bullshit in those, slightly better than you can with everyday straightforward language.
So, when you explain that in the end, Israel puts her own people in as much danger as our leadership puts US, in defying the entire international community, and behaving as a rouge state. In the end, it means isolation, (as opposed to physical destruction) of Israel, and that’s the part that she doesn’t get. She doesn’t get that in this very demonic relationship between the US leadership and Israel...the evil twins joined at the hip...there can only be animosity and hatred toward US, because we have been so supportive of the crimes of Israel.
She’ll never get it...just as a handful of others on this post will never get it. Most of them don’t bother to try to defend these bogus position, and don’t come back.
But, we can count on ITW, to always appear, anytime there is a possibility of capturing an innocent and apolitical reader, and turning them into a facist zionist.
The only thing I can’t understand, is why ITW doesn’t just MOVE to Israel, where all Jews, the world over, are welcome as citizens. And, as long as she stays on her side of the “wall” there’s nothing to fear.
No, I don’t expect that to happen, but it just seems like she’d be so much happier there, and besides...they’ve got all of that medical technology that she could benefit from.
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, July 21, 2007 at 5:22 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
If you are indeed an AMERICAN, you sure dont value the citizenship you have here. If you did, you would see, very clearly, the relationship we currently have with Israel is not to the benefit of the United States and may very well mean the end of Israel, unfortunately, for many innocent people there.
You have a truly sick definition of being an American, since it seems to necessitate the destruction of Israle and the slaughter, as you put it, “of many innocent people there.”
I see no reason the relationship with Israel cannot and is not mutually beneficial to both nations.
The last time our survival DEMANDED the eradication of another nation was the American Civil War and the “nation” that destruction was the CSA. Even WWII didn’t destroy Germany, Japan, or Italy.
The only “reason” to destroy Israel is to appease Arab nations so they’ll sell us oil at gouging prices.
I don’t challenge your right to your opinion, no matter how stupid and truly bizarre it it. I DO challenge your “right” to call for the purging of all Jews in the US Govt, while hiding behind the transparent shield of calling them “zionists”. I DO challenge your right to use false information and call it facts.
And I sure as HELL challenge your right to call me un-American because I don’t ascribe to and actively challenge your lunatic tin-foil hat ideas about “secret invaders” and some magical satanic control of our government by Jews.
Maybe there’s a Roswell forum you can join. Oh, wait--Truthdig is rapidly turning into one.
Just a hint-- I don’t think it matters if the tinfoil is wrinkled or smooth--I think what matters is that you and GodSend are dangerously nuts.
Report thisBy John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 21, 2007 at 4:29 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Zionists are crooks just like Jesuits and Funda-Nazis are crooks. A crook believes in using force (insults) or fraud (lies) in order to overcome or neutralize his opposition. They are basically intellectually and morally dishonest and that gives them a temporary advantage.
Report thisBy the 1Sgt, July 21, 2007 at 2:44 pm #
#88460 by Inherit The Wind on 7/21 at 3:59 am
(Unregistered commenter)
All I am is an American citizen DARING to express an opinion thats different than yours. That, to you, obviously is the definition of a crook.
==================================================
If you are indeed an AMERICAN, you sure don’t value the citizenship you have here. If you did, you would see, very clearly, the relationship we currently have with Israel is not to the benefit of the United States and may very well mean the end of Israel, unfortunately, for many innocent people there.
Report thisBy the 1Sgt, July 21, 2007 at 2:35 pm #
#88460 by Inherit The Wind on 7/21 at 3:59 am
(Unregistered commenter)
Thinking that way is UN-AMERICAN! DISSENT and disagreement ARE the American Way!
=================================================
EXCEPT if the disagreement and dissent refers to or involves the United States “special” relationship is unusually has with Israel, correct?
Then, this very AMERICAN characteristic is NAZI and ANTI SEMETIC.
Is that RIGHT?
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, July 21, 2007 at 3:59 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming on 7/19 at 5:12 pm
(Unregistered commenter)
“Inherit the Wind is a crook. I hope he stays close where we can keep an eye on him and learn from his tricks. That way he cant corrupt so many other sites.
**************
I’m a crook am I? Just what laws have I broken? Can you cite ONE criminal statute at a federal, state or local level you even THINK I broke? Can you show ANY evidence of it? The answer is NO!
All I am is an American citizen DARING to express an opinion that’s different than yours. That, to you, obviously is the definition of a crook.
Thinking that way is UN-AMERICAN! DISSENT and disagreement ARE the American Way!
You are such a lying asshole you don’t even know the definition of “crook”. You are just another neo-nazi propagandist throwing out any shit to can just to see if it sticks.
Try this: Until you ACTUALLY have an argument to post (even a bad, fallacious one) don’t post.
Report thisBy John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 20, 2007 at 5:20 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
With a huge lobby force of 2000:
4. The Unopposed War Lobby
by James Petras
The Zionist Power Configuration (ZPC) has over two thousand full-time functionaries, more than 250,000 activists, over a thousand billionaire and multi-millionaire political donors who contribute funds both political parties. The ZPC secures 20% of the US foreign military aid budget for Israel, over 95% congressional support for Israels boycott and armed incursions in Gaza, invasion of Lebanon and preemptive military option against Iran.....
http://www.bestcyrano.org/cyrano/?p=90
(I don’t remember voting for Israel or Pharmaceuticals or any of the other lobbying bastards that infect this nation like so many termites. They have a lot more power over things with their dirty money than I do.)
Instead of throwing filth hoping that something will stick…
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, July 20, 2007 at 8:39 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
How ironic. These are exactly the words that I should be saying to you, but youre really not worth the energy Wind.
What are you, 7 years old? “Nah, nah I’m rubber, you’re glue, whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you!”
And, not to worry, Im having no problems defending my academic work. I wouldnt publish it otherwise. It has been through the most rigorous of intellectual scrutiny.
Yeah, all the holocaust deniers like to say that too. I’ve SEEN what you post. I’ll stand by my judgement of your capabilities before I’ll bow to your anonymous “most rigorous...” I’m not worried. It’s not keeping me up nights. Thanks for your concern.
Consequently, I will spare you any reading of it. Its more truth than your mind could ever handle,
Yeah, I’m clearly so dumb I have to stick to Melvyn Paul Leffler and Steven Schuker for history. Heck, anything more complicated than Carl Sagan’s “Demon-Haunted World” and I’m LOST!
And James Joyce, Ernest Hemingway and Thomas Pynchon are beyond me so I have to stick to the bunny slopes of literature and read Umberto Eco, Thomas Wolfe, Herman Melville, Tom Stoppard and Mark Twain. And shame of shames--I like Tolkien and Rowling--I’m SO STUPID! I even read (gasp!) Tom Clancy and Sue Grafton!
I only read “Atlas Shrugged” for the sex scenes...but that way I can say I’ve read Ayn Rand…
and I sure dont wanna be the one responsible for actually getting you to go away. I was just hoping youd do it on you own.
No such luck, eh?
Nope. Figured that out all on your own, didja?
Have a nice day!
Report thisBy cyrena, July 19, 2007 at 11:01 pm #
Flash! Cy