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Iraq Vets Break Silence on Devastating Realities of War

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Posted on Jul 12, 2007
basra girl
AP Photo / Toni Nicoletti

An early photo from the Iraq war, taken in April 2003, shows a wounded girl at a hospital in Basra, in southern Iraq.

Chris Hedges and Laila Al-Arian

(Page 2)

Intelligence


Fifteen soldiers we spoke with told us the information that spurred these raids was typically gathered through human intelligence—and that it was usually incorrect. Eight said it was common for Iraqis to use American troops to settle family disputes, tribal rivalries or personal vendettas. Sgt. Jesus Bocanegra, 25, of Weslaco, Texas, was a scout in Tikrit with the Fourth Infantry Division during a yearlong tour that ended in March 2004. In late 2003, Sergeant Bocanegra raided a middle-aged man’s home in Tikrit because his son had told the Army his father was an insurgent. After thoroughly searching the man’s house, soldiers found nothing and later discovered that the son simply wanted money his father had buried at the farm.

After persistently acting on such false leads, Sergeant Bocanegra, who raided Iraqi homes in more than fifty operations, said soldiers began to anticipate the innocence of those they raided. “People would make jokes about it, even before we’d go into a raid, like, Oh fucking we’re gonna get the wrong house,” he said. “ ‘Cause it would always happen. We always got the wrong house.” Specialist Chrystal said that he and his platoon leader shared a joke of their own: Every time he raided a house, he would radio in and say, “This is, you know, Thirty-One Lima. Yeah, I found the weapons of mass destruction in here.”

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Sergeant Bruhns said he questioned the authenticity of the intelligence he received because Iraqi informants were paid by the US military for tips. On one occasion, an Iraqi tipped off Sergeant Bruhns’s unit that a small Syrian resistance organization, responsible for killing a number of US troops, was holed up in a house. “They’re waiting for us to show up and there will be a lot of shooting,” Sergeant Bruhns recalled being told.

As the Alpha Company team leader, Sergeant Bruhns was supposed to be the first person in the door. Skeptical, he refused. “So I said, ‘If you’re so confident that there are a bunch of Syrian terrorists, insurgents…in there, why in the world are you going to send me and three guys in the front door, because chances are I’m not going to be able to squeeze the trigger before I get shot.’ ” Sergeant Bruhns facetiously suggested they pull an M-2 Bradley Fighting Vehicle up to the house and shoot a missile through the front window to exterminate the enemy fighters his commanders claimed were inside. They instead diminished the aggressiveness of the raid. As Sergeant Bruhns ran security out front, his fellow soldiers smashed the windows and kicked down the doors to find “a few little kids, a woman and an old man.”

In late summer 2005, in a village on the outskirts of Kirkuk, Specialist Chrystal searched a compound with two Iraqi police officers. A friendly man in his mid-30s escorted Specialist Chrystal and others in his unit around the property, where the man lived with his parents, wife and children, making jokes to lighten the mood. As they finished searching—they found nothing—a lieutenant from his company approached Specialist Chrystal: “What the hell were you doing?” he asked. “Well, we just searched the house and it’s clear,” Specialist Chrystal said. The lieutenant told Specialist Chrystal that his friendly guide was “one of the targets” of the raid. “Apparently he’d been dimed out by somebody as being an insurgent,” Specialist Chrystal said. “For that mission, they’d only handed out the target sheets to officers, and officers aren’t there with the rest of the troops.” Specialist Chrystal said he felt “humiliated” because his assessment that the man posed no threat was deemed irrelevant and the man was arrested. Shortly afterward, he posted himself in a fighting vehicle for the rest of the mission.

Sgt. Larry Cannon, 27, of Salt Lake City, a Bradley gunner with the Eighteenth Infantry Brigade, First Infantry Division, served a yearlong tour in several cities in Iraq, including Tikrit, Samarra and Mosul, beginning in February 2004. He estimates that he searched more than a hundred homes in Tikrit and found the raids fruitless and maddening. “We would go on one raid of a house and that guy would say, ‘No, it’s not me, but I know where that guy is.’ And…he’d take us to the next house where this target was supposedly at, and then that guy’s like, ‘No, it’s not me. I know where he is, though.’ And we’d drive around all night and go from raid to raid to raid.”

“I can’t really fault military intelligence,” said Specialist Reppenhagen, who said he raided thirty homes in and around Baquba. “It was always a guessing game. We’re in a country where we don’t speak the language. We’re light on interpreters. It’s just impossible to really get anything. All you’re going off is a pattern of what’s happened before and hoping that the pattern doesn’t change.”

Sgt. Geoffrey Millard, 26, of Buffalo, New York, served in Tikrit with the Rear Operations Center, Forty-Second Infantry Division, for one year beginning in October 2004. He said combat troops had neither the training nor the resources to investigate tips before acting on them. “We’re not police,” he said. “We don’t go around like detectives and ask questions. We kick down doors, we go in, we grab people.”

First Lieut. Brady Van Engelen, 26, of Washington, DC, said the Army depended on less than reliable sources because options were limited. He served as a survey platoon leader with the First Armored Division in Baghdad’s volatile Adhamiya district for eight months beginning in September 2003. “That’s really about the only thing we had,” he said. “A lot of it was just going off a whim, a hope that it worked out,” he said. “Maybe one in ten worked out.”

Sergeant Bruhns said he uncovered illegal material about 10 percent of the time, an estimate echoed by other veterans. “We did find small materials for IEDs, like maybe a small piece of the wire, the detonating cord,” said Sergeant Cannon. “We never found real bombs in the houses.” In the thousand or so raids he conducted during his time in Iraq, Sergeant Westphal said, he came into contact with only four “hard-core insurgents.”

 


 

Arrests


Even with such slim pretexts for arrest, some soldiers said, any Iraqis arrested during a raid were treated with extreme suspicion. Several reported seeing military-age men detained without evidence or abused during questioning. Eight veterans said the men would typically be bound with plastic handcuffs, their heads covered with sandbags. While the Army officially banned the practice of hooding prisoners after the Abu Ghraib scandal broke, five soldiers indicated that it continued.

“You weren’t allowed to, but it was still done,” said Sergeant Cannon. “I remember in Mosul [in January 2005], we had guys in a raid and they threw them in the back of a Bradley,” shackled and hooded. “These guys were really throwing up,” he continued. “They were so sick and nervous. And sometimes, they were peeing on themselves. Can you imagine if people could just come into your house and take you in front of your family screaming? And if you actually were innocent but had no way to prove that? It would be a scary, scary thing.” Specialist Reppenhagen said he had only a vague idea about what constituted contraband during a raid. “Sometimes we didn’t even have a translator, so we find some poster with Muqtada al-Sadr, Sistani or something, we don’t know what it says on it. We just apprehend them, document that thing as evidence and send it on down the road and let other people deal with it.”

Sergeant Bruhns, Sergeant Bocanegra and others said physical abuse of Iraqis during raids was common. “It was just soldiers being soldiers,” Sergeant Bocanegra said. “You give them a lot of, too much, power that they never had before, and before you know it they’re the ones kicking these guys while they’re handcuffed. And then by you not catching [insurgents], when you do have someone say, ‘Oh, this is a guy planting a roadside bomb’—and you don’t even know if it’s him or not—you just go in there and kick the shit out of him and take him in the back of a five-ton—take him to jail.”

Tens of thousands of Iraqis—military officials estimate more than 60,000—have been arrested and detained since the beginning of the occupation, leaving their families to navigate a complex, chaotic prison system in order to find them. Veterans we interviewed said the majority of detainees they encountered were either innocent or guilty of only minor infractions.

Sergeant Bocanegra said during the first two months of the war he was instructed to detain Iraqis based on their attire alone. “They were wearing Arab clothing and military-style boots, they were considered enemy combatants and you would cuff ‘em and take ‘em in,” he said. “When you put something like that so broad, you’re bound to have, out of a hundred, you’re going to have ten at least that were, you know what I mean, innocent.”

Sometime during the summer of 2003, Bocanegra said, the rules of engagement narrowed—somewhat. “I remember on some raids, anybody of military age would be taken,” he said. “Say, for example, we went to some house looking for a 25-year-old male. We would look at an age group. Anybody from 15 to 30 might be a suspect.” (Since returning from Iraq, Bocanegra has sought counseling for post-traumatic stress disorder and said his “mission” is to encourage others to do the same.)

Spc. Richard Murphy, 28, an Army Reservist from Pocono, Pennsylvania, who served part of his fifteen-month tour with the 800th Military Police Brigade in Abu Ghraib prison, said he was often struck by the lack of due process afforded the prisoners he guarded.

Specialist Murphy initially went to Iraq in May 2003 to train Iraqi police in the southern city of Al Hillah but was transferred to Abu Ghraib in October 2003 when his unit replaced one that was rotating home. (He spoke with The Nation in October 2006, while not on active duty.) Shortly after his arrival there, he realized that the number of prisoners was growing “exponentially” while the amount of personnel remained stagnant. By the end of his six-month stint, Specialist Murphy was in charge of 320 prisoners, the majority of whom he was convinced were unjustly detained.

“I knew that a large percentage of these prisoners were innocent,” he said. “Just living with these people for months you get to see their character…. In just listening to the prisoners’ stories, I mean, I get the sense that a lot of them were just getting rounded up in big groups.”

Specialist Murphy said one prisoner, a mentally impaired, blind albino who could “maybe see a few feet in front of his face” clearly did not belong in Abu Ghraib. “I thought to myself, What could he have possibly done?”

Specialist Murphy counted the prisoners twice a day, and the inmates would often ask him when they would be released or implore him to advocate on their behalf, which he would try to do through the JAG (Judge Advocate General) Corps office. The JAG officer Specialist Murphy dealt with would respond that it was out of his hands. “He would make his recommendations and he’d have to send it up to the next higher command,” Specialist Murphy said. “It was just a snail’s crawling process…. The system wasn’t working.”

Prisoners at the notorious facility rioted on November 24, 2003, to protest their living conditions, and Army Reserve Spc. Aidan Delgado, 25, of Sarasota, Florida, was there. He had deployed with the 320th Military Police Company to Talil Air Base, to serve in Nasiriya and Abu Ghraib for one year beginning in April 2003. Unlike the other troops in his unit, he did not respond to the riot. Four months earlier he had decided to stop carrying a loaded weapon.

Nine prisoners were killed and three wounded after soldiers opened fire during the riot, and Specialist Delgado’s fellow soldiers returned with photographs of the events. The images, disturbingly similar to the incident described by Sergeant Mejía, shocked him. “It was very graphic,” he said. “A head split open. One of them was of two soldiers in the back of the truck. They open the body bags of these prisoners that were shot in the head and [one soldier has] got an MRE spoon. He’s reaching in to scoop out some of his brain, looking at the camera and he’s smiling. And I said, ‘These are some of our soldiers desecrating somebody’s body. Something is seriously amiss.’ I became convinced that this was excessive force, and this was brutality.”

Spc. Patrick Resta, 29, a National Guardsman from Philadelphia, served in Jalula, where there was a small prison camp at his base. He was with the 252nd Armor, First Infantry Division, for nine months beginning in March 2004. He recalled his supervisor telling his platoon point-blank, “The Geneva Conventions don’t exist at all in Iraq, and that’s in writing if you want to see it.”

The pivotal experience for Specialist Delgado came when, in the winter of 2003, he was assigned to battalion headquarters inside Abu Ghraib prison, where he worked with Maj. David DiNenna and Lieut. Col. Jerry Phillabaum, both implicated in the Taguba Report, the official Army investigation into the prison scandal. There, Delgado read reports on prisoners and updated a dry erase board with information on where in the large prison compound detainees were moved and held.

“That was when I totally walked away from the Army,” Specialist Delgado said. “I read these rap sheets on all the prisoners in Abu Ghraib and what they were there for. I expected them to be terrorists, murderers, insurgents. I look down this roster and see petty theft, public drunkenness, forged coalition documents. These people are here for petty civilian crimes.”

“These aren’t terrorists,” he recalled thinking. “These aren’t our enemies. They’re just ordinary people, and we’re treating them this harshly.” Specialist Delgado ultimately applied for conscientious objector status, which the Army approved in April 2004.

 


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By John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 28, 2007 at 7:08 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

(Still no response)

There is probably more evidence for 911 than there was for the Reichstag stunt.  It is all historical and it is plenty enough to have a full investigation.

1.  Rise of the Neocon supremicist movement at the U. of Chicago and Cornell.

2.  Subversive nature of this movement

3.  Plan for the New American Century as a subversive movement.

4.  Rise of the Bush crime family syndicate.

5.  Neocon headquarters in the pentagon and collusion with selected air force officers and the Israeli government.

6.  Treason Act ready before 911.

7.  Anthrax stunt against Democratic leaders.

8.  Murder of Wellstone family.

6.  Iraq war con.

You don’t have to know anything about the pentagon or skyscrapers to launch a real investigation.  There is even more evidence in the cover ups.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 28, 2007 at 1:55 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Ernest Canning on 7/27 at 7:04 pm
(752 comments total)

ITW, who said I didn’t want to read your post?  I read it.  I was not impressed by it.  I think Dr. Jones’s scientific explanations are superior.  No need to get emotional because I wasn’t impressed by your post.

EC: Don’t worry, I won’t.  I didn’t expect to change your mind. I have not seen compelling evidence to change my view of it, and I’ve seen a lot of easily discounted nonsense passed off as proof.

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By John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 27, 2007 at 10:47 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

There are many Jews with honor.  They are no better or worse than anyone else, except tradition makes it so.

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By cann4ing, July 27, 2007 at 8:04 pm Link to this comment

ITW, who said I didn’t want to read your post?  I read it.  I was not impressed by it.  I think Dr. Jones’s scientific explanations are superior.  No need to get emotional because I wasn’t impressed by your post.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 27, 2007 at 7:40 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

ohn Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming on 7/27 at 1:17 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

I still think you are a liar and that fly under nothing but a false flag.

********

Yeah, your feeble bigoted mind’s made up and you don’t want to get your ignorance tainted with facts.

I think YOU were shit out by the Great Pumpkin into a toxic waste heap full of dioxin because he didn’t want to bring your filth to all the little boys and girls on Halloween.

And I have just as much evidence for what I think as you have for what you think.

Only what I think is more interesting, creative, and just plain funny.

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By John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 27, 2007 at 2:17 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I still think you are a liar and that fly under nothing but a false flag.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 27, 2007 at 12:20 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming on 7/27 at 10:23 am
(Unregistered commenter)

All neocons are liars.  You are a neocon.  Therefore you are a liar.

Your logic is impeccable. But, of course, your premise is absurd.

I am no neocon, no fan of neocons, and accept nothing they put forth as valid.

As I said you just keep throwing lis and shit at the wall to see what sticks.  But it’s splattering all over you.

You don’t know shit from shinola about me, but since I KNOW you are an ignorant idiot and show it all the time, you say whatever you can invent.  You don’t even show any imagination.

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By John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 27, 2007 at 11:23 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

All neocons are liars.  You are a neocon.  Therefore you are a liar.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 27, 2007 at 9:22 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

ohn Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming on 7/26 at 10:23 am
(Unregistered commenter)

There is no right to exist for any nation.  Israel’s right to exist rests upon 150 nuclear weapons.  I suppose you have dual citizenship, which means that you support Israel first and the United States second.  You’ve made your choice.

******
I guess you figure if you throw enough shit at a wall something will stick?  So you just make up any lies you want and toss them out there.

I am NOT a dual citizen, nor an Israeli.  I simply do not see any viable evidence that the destruction of Israel (and the subsequent murder or fleeing of 5.5 million) people can possibly be in the best interests of the USA or the Middle East.

I know that’s hard to see for you red-neck Jew-hating bigots who cut your teeth believe Jews have horns and are responsible for every evil in the world, from 9/11 to Hurricane Katrina, to the Tsunami in Asia a few years ago.

I can’t help your WILLFUL ignorance. Only you can.  But I can label your bullshit as such.

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By the 1Sgt, July 26, 2007 at 5:24 pm Link to this comment

#89737 by John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming on 7/26 at 10:23 am
(Unregistered commenter)

There is no right to exist for any nation.  Israel’s right to exist rests upon 150 nuclear weapons.  I suppose you have dual citizenship, which means that you support Israel first and the United States second.  You’ve made your choice.
=====================================================

A choice clearly illustrated with the responses given by ITW to date. Time and again we see the same pattern. When given a choice the answer is favor of the Jewish state by Jewish Americans, over the interest of the United States, the country that bore them. The current policies of the United States favor Israel and are partial to one side—so much so we have attacked and invaded Israel’s enemies. First Iraq and soon will be Iran.

This during a time when Israel practices APARTHEID with Arabs in their own homeland, caging them by the hundreds of thousands in a place called GAZA and the WEST BANK.

Then people here ask…“why do they hate us”?

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By John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 26, 2007 at 11:23 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

There is no right to exist for any nation.  Israel’s right to exist rests upon 150 nuclear weapons.  I suppose you have dual citizenship, which means that you support Israel first and the United States second.  You’ve made your choice.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 26, 2007 at 7:10 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

EC:
You don’t want to read what I post? Fine, nobody’s holding you at your keyboard at gunpoint.

You want to live in your pipe dreams that make no sense about “Jewish” conspiracies to alienate the BEST friend Israel has, well, that’s your problem.

I’ve lived to see PLENTY of them, all bogus and I’ve studied even more.  From Joe Hill’s conviction, to the Palmer raids, to Sacco&Vanzetti;, to Charles Beard’s scurrilous implication that FDR was behind Pearl Harbor, to the assassinations of the 60’s, to Flight 800, Foster’s suicide and now, 9/11.

All bogus conspiracy theories.  Joe Hill was killed for being IWW, Period.

Building 7 COULDN’T possibly have collapsed? Well, the buffs said Oswald COULDN’T have fired the shots—Oliver Stone made a big movie saying that.

All garbage. Oswald fired the shots—the early interpretation of the evidence, particularly the timing was all wrong.  When the timing was fixed, all the anomalies vanished.

I’m intellectually dishonest? Because I KNOW BS when I see it (and smell it)? Because I trust FIRST my own analysis and brainpower, not the analysis of “authorities” solely because they have a title?

The evidence of “demolition” at the WTC just doesn’t wash and I’ve laid out the reasons why. YOU brushed them aside because in your reductionist thinking they contradict what you “know” to be true:
That a team of dedicated terrorists managed to bring down the WTC by a method even Tom Clancy knew—and DESCRIBED in “Debt of Honor”.

Occam’s Razor, Baby, Occam’s Razor.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 26, 2007 at 6:52 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming on 7/25 at 9:57 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

I am not a Jew-hating, Israel despising Fascist.  You are, or you wouldn’t use such insults as your standard fair.  As far as I’m concerned you are a vicious neo-con and a traitor.  (No, I didn’t read all your posts.  Should I.  People like you always return to the same old vomit.)

*****
Ludicrous. I’m Jewish. I defend Israel’s right to exist. I’m a Democrat.

Your assertions are so, well, weird, that you make GodSend look sane.

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By John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 25, 2007 at 10:57 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I am not a Jew-hating, Israel despising Fascist.  You are, or you wouldn’t use such insults as your standard fair.  As far as I’m concerned you are a vicious neo-con and a traitor.  (No, I didn’t read all your posts.  Should I.  People like you always return to the same old vomit.)

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By cann4ing, July 25, 2007 at 9:49 pm Link to this comment

No ITW, you feign politeness then return to your intellectual dishonesty.  I have witnessed it too many times, and, frankly I’m tired of it.  As I said in the previous post, I find the scientific explanations of a physicist like Dr. Steven E. Jones far more convincing.  You can use the usual slander, “tin-hat conspiracy theorist,” as dismissive denigration all you want.  The fact is that there are competing “theories” as to the source of the collapse of all three buildings.  There is the “official theory” that the collapse was caused by fire—one that does not appear to square with basic science, and which bears a heavy burden of proof given than no high rise building in human history ever collapsed due to fire prior to 9/11.  Then there are the unofficial “theories.” 

Of all the explanations offered, Dr. Jones’s appears to be on the most solid, scientific footing.  There is not one word in your argumentative posts that convinces me that the “official theories” are even credible.

Insult, yell and scream all you want.  As I stated before, I am interested in the science, not in your political opinions.  While I would be the first to join with you in rejecting the paranoid rantings of some posters that 9/11 is a Zionist plot, I suspect that your vociferous refusal to accept the science behind the issue of controlled demolition is in part motivated by your need to deny anything could connect this episode to one or more Zionists, though, from my perspective, if there was complicity, I suspect it had everything to do with Cheney’s insatiable lust for power, period!

Finally, your comment about the height of WTC 1 & 2 is intriguing and one worthy of a further open and full investigation.  It may well explain why the squibs shooting out at higher levels (e.g. high level demolition) would have been needed in addition to the numerous explosions eye witnesses claim they heard occurring in the basements of the twin towers.  It would also serve to explain the variation between the method of collapse of WTC 1 & 2 vs. WTC 7, though all three buildings collapsed into their own footprints, and although the ultra-high temperatures remained in the rubble for such an extended period, which is precisely what occurs when thermite is used in demolition.

As to WTC 7, the evidence is beyond overwhelming.  The collapse was precisely what you see in controlled demolition.  Controlled demolition is consistent with Larry Silverstein’s statement that they were given orders to “pull-it” and with Guiliani’s televised statement made on 9/11 to the effect that FEMA gave him 10-15 minutes advance notice that the building was going to collapse.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 25, 2007 at 7:24 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming on 7/25 at 10:42 am
(Unregistered commenter)

I think that “inherit the wind” uses insults to make people angry and then in all the confusion he offers weak arguments.  You can tell that something is fishy because he uses the prescribed Republican insults and slanders in order to get things rolling.  I think he fears that Israel was involved in 911, and so he wants to keep everyone’s attention on minutiae.

Actually, I don’t think you’ve really read my posts. Otherwise you’d KNOW I have opposed the war in Iraq since BEFORE it began.  You’d know I cannot stand 99% of the Republican Party and want George W. Bush and Richard Cheney impeached, ousted then tried and convicted on charges of treason.  You’d know I think Jimmy Carter was the wisest, most honest and most-far-seeing President since FDR—he was just lousy at Washington politics.

You’d know I want us OUT of Iraq and to BACK OFF on Iran. You’d know I DESPISE the fact the Bush BLEW an unbelievable opportunity to make peace with Iran after 9/11.

I have been called every kind of name by you Jew-hating Israel-despising fascists who want me to SHUT UP so you can enjoy your circle-jerk and get all horny for the idea of somebody dropping a mega-ton hydrogen bomb on Israel—because you are all such “humanists”.

I’m not afraid that Jews were behind 9/11. I’m afraid that fanatics like you will manufacture phony evidence to “prove” it—not enough to get convictions, but just enough to start what you really want: another purging of Jews—this time from America.

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By John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 25, 2007 at 11:42 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I think that “inherit the wind” uses insults to make people angry and then in all the confusion he offers weak arguments.  You can tell that something is fishy because he uses the prescribed Republican insults and slanders in order to get things rolling.  I think he fears that Israel was involved in 911, and so he wants to keep everyone’s attention on minutiae.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 25, 2007 at 5:56 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Ernest Canning on 7/24 at 9:34 pm
(695 comments total)

Whom, which is more reliable the science of a renouned physicist, Dr. Steven E. Jones, reflected in powerful and convincing academic papers and presentations or ITW and his NOVA program?  Hmmm, that’s a tough one.  And your explanation, ITW, for the symetrical collapse of WTC 7 into its own footprint in the span of 6.6 seconds; WTC 7 which was “not” struck by a plane, is precisely what, ITW?

As you have repeated done with respect to other topics, your intellectual dishonesty is transparent and there for all to see.

***********

EC: I have TRIED to be polite to you, but you just keep coming back with insults and slander.

The physics of the collapse of the Twin Towers is not as complicated as you tin-foil hat conspiracy buffs try to make out. 

If your analysis of the collapse of the twin towers is fundamentally WRONG (and it is) then the collapse of bldng 7 is no longer a valid component of your conspiracy theory.

See, you all have your logic backwards—the collapse of 7 being harder to explain does NOT indicate that the towers didn’t collapse as described—that’s typical ex post fact bad reasoning.

You have to first PROVE that the towers could not have collapsed as described, which I find ludicrous.  The contained fire from jet fuel easily burns hot enough to burn the temper out of steel—you don’t need to melt the steel at all.  Once the temper is gone, it’s not steel anymore, but soft iron, incapable of supporting the floors above. ALL the floors above fall like a giant sledge on the floor below, far exceeding its load limits. 

Don’t believe me? Any carpenter with a hammer and a nail KNOWS you can’t just lean on the nail with the hammerhead and drive it—you have to SWING the hammer to develop kinetic energy. Simple, high school physics on how acceleration amplifies force.

So once the floors above drive down like a pile driver, the floor below collapses and now the ADDITIONAL weight is joined to hit the floor below, which collapse quicker and quicker.  This isn’t hard to understand.

I also find the “demolition” theory absurd. Why? Several OBVIOUS reasons.
1)Because when buildings are demolished they are far, far smaller than the WTC. NOBODY has ever brought down a skyscraper of this order of magnitude.
2) EVERY film I’ve ever seen of a controlled demoltion, the building was ALWAYS wider than it is tall—occasionally you get fairly tall buildings but NEVER anything where the height is so much greater than the width.
3) (I think of this as the idiot argument—only an idiot would deny it) Placing charges to demolish and implode a building is not only a highly skilled profession, it is an INCREDIBLY time-consuming activity. 
It can take MONTHS to plan and locate charges to bring down a fairly small structure. 
During those months the demolition engineers REQUIRE complete and total access to the structure.
Most of the internals of the building must be removed in advance.
Charges are placed on each and every floor at key structural elements and timed to go off sequentially from top to bottom (there’s an order from inside to outside but that’s beyond my knowledge).

So the “demolition” argument requires lots of demolition engineers—LOTS of them—and nobody noticing. 
They have to poke into EVERY nook and cranny in the buildings—and nobody notices. 
They have to place THOUSANDS of charges—and nobody notices.
They have to run HUNDREDS of miles of wire—and nobody notices.
They have to test their connections and timing—and nobody notices.
They have to violate EVERY guiding principle of demolition safety—and nobody notices
They have break ALL these rules on a type and size of structure that NOBODY has ever demolished before.
They have to keep it all secret—despite the guys in hard hats, the explosive placements, the wiring, etc.

NOW you see why the demolition fantasy is pure crap.

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By John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 24, 2007 at 10:45 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Crooks cherry pick the facts, use gobbledeegook and gibberish, and act triumphal.  Republicans are schooled in crookery because no one stands up to them, hoping they will just go away.  For most lazy cowards, Hitler has to slap them in the face before they realize the danger. Republicans belong in Leavenworth.

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By cann4ing, July 24, 2007 at 10:34 pm Link to this comment

Whom, which is more reliable the science of a renouned physicist, Dr. Steven E. Jones, reflected in powerful and convincing academic papers and presentations or ITW and his NOVA program?  Hmmm, that’s a tough one.  And your explanation, ITW, for the symetrical collapse of WTC 7 into its own footprint in the span of 6.6 seconds; WTC 7 which was “not” struck by a plane, is precisely what, ITW?

As you have repeated done with respect to other topics, your intellectual dishonesty is transparent and there for all to see.

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By John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 24, 2007 at 12:45 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

You don’t have to know all the details of the murder weapon (airplanes or explosives) to know that a murder is suspected.  Usually murders are inside jobs.  The external evidence is overwhelming of a conspiracy involving Israel, Pakistan, the GOP, etc.

Who benefited from 911?  What is the psychopathic character of the Bush crime syndicate?

Still no real investigation.  The bogus investigations after one year and one half speak volumes.  All the other coverups speak volumes.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 24, 2007 at 4:57 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

cyrena on 7/23 at 3:26 pm
(488 comments total)

#88797 by Inherit The Wind on 7/23 at 4:14 am

You didn’t read my post Wind, because of your illness. I said, that while the airplanes obviously hit the towers, (we saw THAT much with our own eyes) the airplanes DID NOT, (and I will repeat this again) the airplanes ARE NOT responsible for the collapse of the WTC. The towers fell in their tracks, because of all the explosives that had been placed on site.

I’m not gonna have this conversation with you again. The AIRPLANES that we ALL saw crash into the towers, DID NOT bring them down.

Do ya get that?

*********

Sure did. And I got that you just contradicted what you said in post 88763, which was:

.I repeat, those airplanes DID NOT bring down ANY of the buildings at the WTC on 9-11. They may or may not have crashed into those towers,

**************

“May or may not have crashed into those towers”? Now you are changing your tune. I keep saying this:

YOU ARE ENTITLED TO YOUR OWN OPINIONS BUT YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO YOUR OWN FACTS!

Fact: A commercial jet liner loaded with passengers crashed into each of the WTC towers on 9/11/2001. Disputing that one fact alone is a mark of insanity.

All you tin-foil-hat types should look at the NOVA episode on the towers’ collapse.  All the phony reasons why the planes couldn’t have brought down the towers were disproven years ago.

Meanwhile, I’m spending my time on something far more real and less magical than your ludicrous fantasies.  Of course, I mean the latest Harry Potter book. 

At least THERE the magic makes sense and follows a consistent internal logic.  But, then again, Ms. Rowling never expected anyone to actually BELIEVE she was writing anything but entertaining make-believe.

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By John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 23, 2007 at 10:26 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

There is probably more evidence for 911 than there was for the Reichstag stunt.  It is all historical and it is plenty enough to have a full investigation.

1.  Rise of the Neocon supremicist movement at the U. of Chicago and Cornell.

2.  Subversive nature of this movement

3.  Plan for the New American Century as a subversive movement.

4.  Rise of the Bush crime family syndicate.

5.  Neocon headquarters in the pentagon and collusion with selected air force officers and the Israeli government.

6.  Treason Act ready before 911.

7.  Anthrax stunt against Democratic leaders.

8.  Murder of Wellstone family.

6.  I’m sure there is plenty more.

7.  Treason

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By cann4ing, July 23, 2007 at 6:47 pm Link to this comment

ITW, when it comes to 9/11 I am more interested in what the science shows than what the politicians claim. 

The 10/8/06 paper by Dr. Steven E. Jones, a Physicist and Archemetrist, entitled “Why Indeed did the WTC Buildings Collpase?” examines thirteen separate areas which “challenge government reports and investigate[s] the controlled demolition hypothesis”

“1.  Molten Metal:  Flowing and in Pools
“2.  Observed Tempeeratures around 1000 degreeC and Sulfidation in WTC 7
“3.  Near-Symmetrical Collapse of WTC 7
“4.  No Previous Skyscraper Collapse Due to Fires [none since either]
“5.  Squib-timing during the Collapse of WTC 7
“6.  Early Drop of North Tower Antenna
“7.  Eyewitness Acounts of Flashes and Loud Explosions
“8 Ejection of Steel Beams and Debris—plumes from the Towers
“9.  Rapid Collapses and Conservation of Momentum and Energy
“10 Controlled Demolition ‘Implosions” Require Skill
“11.  Steel Column Temperatures of 800 degrees C Needed…
“12.  Problems in the NIST Report:  Inadequate Steel Temperatures and Tweaked Models
“13.  NIST’s Failure to Show Visualizations.”

http://wtc7.net/articles/stevenjones_b7.html

WTC 7, by the way, was “not” struck by a plane.  Housing offices of several U.S. intelligence agencies, it was one of the most secure in the nation, rendering it highly unlikely al Qaeda could have planted explosives.  On 9/11 it collapsed into its own footprint in the span of 6.6 seconds.  A video of its collapse is virtually identical to numerous available videos of buildings involved in controlled demolition.

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By cyrena, July 23, 2007 at 4:26 pm Link to this comment

#88797 by Inherit The Wind on 7/23 at 4:14 am

You didn’t read my post Wind, because of your illness. I said, that while the airplanes obviously hit the towers, (we saw THAT much with our own eyes) the airplanes DID NOT, (and I will repeat this again) the airplanes ARE NOT responsible for the collapse of the WTC. The towers fell in their tracks, because of all the explosives that had been placed on site.

I’m not gonna have this conversation with you again. The AIRPLANES that we ALL saw crash into the towers, DID NOT bring them down.

Do ya get that?

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By John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 23, 2007 at 3:20 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The one thing that makes Republicans and Nazis most alike is their criminal philosophy which allows them to insult others at will, while ignoring ideas and facts.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 23, 2007 at 5:14 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Cyrena:

Chico Marx said it best: “Who you gonna believe: Me or your own eyes?”

I have friends who SAW the second plane hit the south tower. They didn’t allegedly see a plane. They didn’t see an “alleged” plane—they SAW THE F***ing PLANE CRASH OVER THEIR HEADS, you IDIOT!  Got that? The only people who DOUBT there were planes are psychos like you who simply cannot believe that such a simple, elegant, brutal attack could have occurred and that the wonderful, peaceful Islamic jihadists could have been behind it!

Nor do they believe the VERY simple physics that brought down the towers.  Only conspiracy theorists psychos like you buy into the “other” cause nonsense.

Cyrena’s definition of “crazy”: Disagreeing with her and NEVER giving in to her crap and never “going away”.  See, because Cyrena wants me to shut up and go away, and HAS POSTED THAT, she now says I must be crazy because…I won’t!

Get a life, lady!

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By John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 23, 2007 at 2:16 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

As a citizen, everyone has the right to believe and say whatever they want.  I think that factions within Israel and Saudi Arabia and Pakistan and the U.S were involved in planning and executing 911.  Proof?  None.  But, all the 911 coverups suggest conspiracy.  Who benefited?  Israel, Saudi Arabia, and the Bushies.  Common sense and experience are all we have as citizens.  I have an Israeli/US friend who agrees.

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By cyrena, July 22, 2007 at 10:31 pm Link to this comment

Comment#88633 by Inherit The Wind on 7/22 at 5:11 am

•  Besides, there’s that wonderful fact that jet fuel only burns at 500 deg F, not enough to soften steel.  I’m sure you’re citing that bullshit as well (jet fuel burns at least 3x hotter than that in open air, and even hotter in enclosed spaces—EASILY hot enough to catastrophic weaken steel by burning out the temper)

Wind, in all of this blather, about jet fuel burn rates, (and I’m more than a little bit familiar with jet fuel burn rates, and pretty much everything else that goes with operation a commercial airline operation) how does it lead you to consistently make accusations that I have claimed that the Zionists are behind the 9-11 operation? I have never suggested such a thing, because it’s never been proven, and…as 911truthdog recently posted, WE DON’T KNOW who arranged 9-11. Cheney knows, and I’m sure there are a few others of his intimate circle that know as well. But beyond that, we don’t.

Meantime, here’s a news flash….none of your calculations on jet fuel burn rates are worth a damn, because those airplanes did NOT….I repeat, those airplanes DID NOT bring down ANY of the buildings at the WTC on 9-11. They may or may not have crashed into those towers, but let me repeat this for you….THAT DID NOT cause those buildings to turn to dust in less than an hour. Those WTC was blown up with explosives. How they got there, I do not know. The airplanes did not bring those towers down.

Writethat 5000 times, THE AIRPLANES DID NOT BRING DOWN THE WTC.

That should keep you busy for a while.

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By cyrena, July 22, 2007 at 10:05 pm Link to this comment

#88636 by Inherit The Wind on 7/22 at 5:21 am

You’re a sickie Wind. And, prior to now, I’d never considered reporting you to the administrators. I’d also never had any reason to know for sure, if you were a man or a woman. Quite frankly, I’d been cutting you some slack, because your postings ring of possible menopausal symptoms. So no, with a handle like ITW, there was no reason to assume that you wouldn’t be a woman, though I certainly understand that you could be a man as well. Thing is, I don’t much give a shit.

I DO know that you’re sick, and that you need some help, and I will of course retain the posting, in the event that I decide to report you. I haven’t yet, but you’re working your way there. Someone in authority should at least be aware of your presence. We live in dangerous times now….the “war on terror” and all…And quite frankly, you sound like you are an explosion waiting to happen.

So yeah, I’m posting this to put you on notice. More of this kind of stuff will get you the kind of attention that you are presumably seeking. But, it’s a “cut off your nose to spite your face” action, which is ultimately very stupid. You should think before you post anything else. It could come back to haunt you.

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By M, July 22, 2007 at 9:37 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Everyone is hand in hand in this. Those who already have antisemitic tendencies or who feel alienated economically are blaming ‘the Jews’ but it’s much, much bigger than that. Basically, the Nazis (and lots of them were brought in to work for the CIA after WW2)  hate Jews and want to get rid of them. Top-level Zionists do pretty well out of an atmosphere of antisemitism too and they want all Jews, identified or assimilated, to move to Israel because they have a longstanding wish to reestablish the Davidic kingdom (with themselves as the royalty of course). Saudi Arabian royalty wants the US to occupy Iraq to take the pressure off them because of the bases in Saudi Arabia and because Islamists threaten their own power structure. And all these guys, including the Italian mafia/Catholic church, HATE the ‘left’ (i.e anyone who talks about mushy things like equality, workers rights, public education etc etc). So they came up with this brilliant plan (as brilliant as thugs can devise) to achieve total domination. It doesn’t particularly matter to them if everyone suspects it’s an inside job because, if anything, it increases the fear and paranoia that they want to bring about. It’s a pretty depressing scenario. And it’s the ordinary Jew/Christian/Muslim who invariably suffers. Most Jews really are loyal to the country they reside in, many have assimilated to avoid being identified as ‘Jewish’ (e.g converted, taken up non Jewish names etc) but in the end, it’s going to make no difference. The charges of double loyalty invariably surface (with some justification), ordinary Jews face pogroms and getting kicked out again and again. Nazis are happy, Zionists are happy, mafia are happy. Cheap labor becomes abundant again. Life goes on and it happens all over again some time down the line. Ordo ab Chao.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 22, 2007 at 8:25 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I think you have it backwards Mordecai….YOU are the one trying to silence US.

Are you going to respond to the article I posted or will you just ignore it?

http://www.startribune.com/587/story/564047.html

*****

This is not a hard one to figure out, Schultz: Even the dummies and morons on the Republican side of the aisle have a far better grasp of what is in America’s interest than you ever will.  They, at least, aren’t so riddled with hatred for all Jews that they can’t see straight, the way you are.

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By John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 22, 2007 at 8:23 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Children.  Children.

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By the 1Sgt, July 22, 2007 at 6:51 pm Link to this comment

#88636 by Inherit The Wind on 7/22 at 5:21 am
(Unregistered commenter)

Cyrena and the 1Sgt:

Is there ANYTHING you two WON’T say to try to silence me?
===================================================

I think you have it backwards Mordecai….YOU are the one trying to silence US.

Are you going to respond to the article I posted or will you just ignore it?

http://www.startribune.com/587/story/564047.html

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By Inherit The Wind, July 22, 2007 at 6:21 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Cyrena and the 1Sgt:

Is there ANYTHING you two WON’T say to try to silence me?

Are you SO terrified of having your drug-addled fantasies questioned and held up to scrutiny that you will do or say ANYTHING to shut me up and shut me off?

Why don’t you go whining to the administrators to cut me off:
“ITW is SO unfair!!! He uses logic and facts against us!!!! Boo-Hoo-hoo.  And no matter WHAT insults we hurl or invent about him, he keeps coming back!!! WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!  IT’S NOT FAIR!!!

Maybe that will work.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 22, 2007 at 6:11 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

But, we can count on ITW, to always appear, anytime there is a possibility of capturing an innocent and apolitical reader, and turning them into a facist zionist.

The only thing I can’t understand, is why ITW doesn’t just MOVE to Israel, where all Jews, the world over, are welcome as citizens. And, as long as she stays on her side of the “wall” there’s nothing to fear.

No, I don’t expect that to happen, but it just seems like she’d be so much happier there, and besides…they’ve got all of that medical technology that she could benefit from.

****************

Oh, Horrors! I made a typo! That clearly means I MUST be a Zionist Fascist!  But what about you? You can’t even keep the basic grammar of genders straight!  You keep adding an ‘s’ in front of “he” when referring to me.  If a typo makes me such a bad person, what does THAT make YOU????

I’ll tell you what it makes you: Infantile and unable to cope with getting what you pompously dish out.

Because I don’t subscribe to your nutty-ultra-left-wing tin-foil hat conspiracy fantasies that are now IDENTICAL to the nutty-ultra-right-wing-tin-foil hat crew, that means I have to hate America?  Absurd!

And you assholes keep trying to say that. Sorry. I’m an American first. And will be unless you and George Bush get your wish and stifle all dissent and turn us into the fascist state you love.  It is my FERVENT desire to prevent him AND you from gutting the American Constitution for political expediency. 

Since you think the Arab Moslem nations are such bastions of freedom and liberal openmindedness, and you think (under your foil hat) that America is magically, demonically “possessed” by Jews, why don’t YOU move to one of those Utopias?  I’m sure you’ll be happier as you freely wear your head scarf and burkha. You’re free to wear and free not to wear it—if you don’t mind being called a whore, being arrested, beaten and cursed.

Cyrena: You’ll never be a scholar. You buy into the tin-foil hat conspiracy fantasies that Arabs are too stupid to conceive and execute as elegant a plan as 9/11.  Sure, no 767 hit WTC South.  My friend who was standing under it really just saw a pigeon bang into the building, right? (BTW, he ran out of Bld 7 after North was hit).

Besides, there’s that wonderful fact that jet fuel only burns at 500 deg F, not enough to soften steel.  I’m sure you’re citing that bullshit as well (jet fuel burns at least 3x hotter than that in open air, and even hotter in enclosed spaces—EASILY hot enough to catastrophic weaken steel by burning out the temper)

But, since you no scholar, you’ll never let facts clutter up YOUR “truth”—which is the Arab propaganda that “those evil Jews” were behind 9/11.

I’ll bet you still believe that crap that Oswald couldn’t have gotten the shots off that killed JFK. And I’ll bet you still believe in the “magic dancing bullet” as proof there was a conspiracy.

Scholar = Skeptic. Scholar ^= Cynic.

I may not be a pretty boy, but I’ll tell you what: At 210+lbs, shaving every day (face, not legs) I’d make a damn ugly woman.  I think I’ll let John Travolta do that, instead.

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By the 1Sgt, July 22, 2007 at 5:50 am Link to this comment

During the time Israel was BOMBING and destroying Lebanon with American made weapons, most of them supplied FREE OF CHARGE.(last year)

U.S. House backs Israel 410-8

http://www.startribune.com/587/story/564047.html

WASHINGTON—The House, displaying a foreign affairs solidarity lacking on issues like Iraq, voted overwhelmingly today to support Israel in its confrontation with Hezbollah guerrillas.

The nonbinding resolution is similar to one the Senate passed Tuesday. It harshly condemns Israel’s enemies and says Syria and Iran should be held accountable for providing Hezbollah with money and missile technology used to attack Israel.

Yet as Republican and Democratic leaders rally behind the measure in rare bipartisan fashion, a handful of lawmakers have quietly expressed reservations that the resolution was too much the result of a powerful lobbying force and attempts to court Jewish voters.

“This is the usual problem with any resolution that talks about Israel — there are a lot of closet naysayers up there (in Congress), but they don’t want to be a target of the lobby” of Israel, said Eugene H. Bird, president of the Council for the National Interest, a group that harshly condemns Israel’s military campaign.
====================================================

Tell us more about the current “beneficial” relationship, ITW. A relationship in which the representatives of the country are afraid to object to KILLING and destruction by Israel, on a scale second only to the United States.

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By the 1Sgt, July 22, 2007 at 5:23 am Link to this comment

#88614 by cyrena on 7/22 at 1:03 am
(452 comments total)

Well 1Sgt:

From the latest comment by Inherit, it’s pretty clear she didn’t get it again.
===================================================
I think everyone else did, and that’s what counts.

This is the behavior you get from Israel activists, be they Americans or foreigners.

When you confront them with their own illogical statement, they cannot respond to it or they twist what was actually said/implied.

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By cyrena, July 22, 2007 at 2:03 am Link to this comment

Well 1Sgt:

From the latest comment by Inherit, it’s pretty clear she didn’t get it again. When you said that our relationship with Israel is really NOT to our benefit, and could in fact bring ultimate harm to the innocents of Israel as well, she kicked in with this…


....“You have a truly sick definition of being an American, since it seems to necessitate the destruction of Israle and the slaughter, as you put it, “of many innocent people there.”>

See what I mean? Nobody (including you) said that being an American necessitates the destruction of Israel, (which ITW mispelled…but she’s forgiven). And, that’s the way it always is with her. Same with lilmamzer.

Absolutely ANY criticism of our dysfunctional relationship with Israel is going to immediately initiate the accusation that you/I/we/anybody, wants to DESTROY Israel. And, since we have heard nothing but this from these posters, (be they one and the same or not)it’s not going to change. Especially if you see that he/she can continue the above statement, with something like this:

...“I see no reason the relationship with Israel cannot and is not mutually beneficial to both nations.”....

Now, assuming that ITW really believes the above, (and…that is what she wrote) we have to assume that she is simply the psychologically dysfunctional person that she is, because no rational person can ever believe this. Obviously, our relationship with Israel has cost us not only BILLIONS of tax payer dollars, for which we have NEVER received the slightest bit of ANYTHING, (I’m still waiting to find out how Israel benefits US, but ITW has never been able to give us any examples of this, or what we might be receiving, for all of this money.)

So, in ITW, you’re dealing with a literate person of book knowlege, who is in denial, and lacking any common sense for how to utilize her literacy. Rather, she uses $100.00 words in place of the less expensive ones, because you can bury bullshit in those, slightly better than you can with everyday straightforward language.

So, when you explain that in the end, Israel puts her own people in as much danger as our leadership puts US, in defying the entire international community, and behaving as a rouge state. In the end, it means isolation, (as opposed to physical destruction) of Israel, and that’s the part that she doesn’t get. She doesn’t get that in this very demonic relationship between the US leadership and Israel…the evil twins joined at the hip…there can only be animosity and hatred toward US, because we have been so supportive of the crimes of Israel.

She’ll never get it…just as a handful of others on this post will never get it. Most of them don’t bother to try to defend these bogus position, and don’t come back.

But, we can count on ITW, to always appear, anytime there is a possibility of capturing an innocent and apolitical reader, and turning them into a facist zionist.

The only thing I can’t understand, is why ITW doesn’t just MOVE to Israel, where all Jews, the world over, are welcome as citizens. And, as long as she stays on her side of the “wall” there’s nothing to fear.

No, I don’t expect that to happen, but it just seems like she’d be so much happier there, and besides…they’ve got all of that medical technology that she could benefit from.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 21, 2007 at 6:22 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

If you are indeed an AMERICAN, you sure don’t value the citizenship you have here. If you did, you would see, very clearly, the relationship we currently have with Israel is not to the benefit of the United States and may very well mean the end of Israel, unfortunately, for many innocent people there.

You have a truly sick definition of being an American, since it seems to necessitate the destruction of Israle and the slaughter, as you put it, “of many innocent people there.”

I see no reason the relationship with Israel cannot and is not mutually beneficial to both nations.

The last time our survival DEMANDED the eradication of another nation was the American Civil War and the “nation” that destruction was the CSA.  Even WWII didn’t destroy Germany, Japan, or Italy.

The only “reason” to destroy Israel is to appease Arab nations so they’ll sell us oil at gouging prices.

I don’t challenge your right to your opinion, no matter how stupid and truly bizarre it it. I DO challenge your “right” to call for the purging of all Jews in the US Govt, while hiding behind the transparent shield of calling them “zionists”.  I DO challenge your right to use false information and call it facts.

And I sure as HELL challenge your right to call me un-American because I don’t ascribe to and actively challenge your lunatic tin-foil hat ideas about “secret invaders” and some magical satanic control of our government by Jews.

Maybe there’s a Roswell forum you can join.  Oh, wait—Truthdig is rapidly turning into one.

Just a hint—I don’t think it matters if the tinfoil is wrinkled or smooth—I think what matters is that you and GodSend are dangerously nuts.

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By John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 21, 2007 at 5:29 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Zionists are crooks just like Jesuits and Funda-Nazis are crooks.  A crook believes in using force (insults) or fraud (lies) in order to overcome or neutralize his opposition.  They are basically intellectually and morally dishonest and that gives them a temporary advantage.

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By the 1Sgt, July 21, 2007 at 3:44 pm Link to this comment

#88460 by Inherit The Wind on 7/21 at 3:59 am
(Unregistered commenter)

All I am is an American citizen DARING to express an opinion that’s different than yours. That, to you, obviously is the definition of a crook.
==================================================

If you are indeed an AMERICAN, you sure don’t value the citizenship you have here. If you did, you would see, very clearly, the relationship we currently have with Israel is not to the benefit of the United States and may very well mean the end of Israel, unfortunately, for many innocent people there.

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By the 1Sgt, July 21, 2007 at 3:35 pm Link to this comment

#88460 by Inherit The Wind on 7/21 at 3:59 am
(Unregistered commenter)

Thinking that way is UN-AMERICAN!  DISSENT and disagreement ARE the American Way!
=================================================

EXCEPT if the disagreement and dissent refers to or involves the United States “special” relationship is unusually has with Israel, correct?

Then, this very AMERICAN characteristic is NAZI and ANTI SEMETIC.

Is that RIGHT?

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By Inherit The Wind, July 21, 2007 at 4:59 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming on 7/19 at 5:12 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

“Inherit the Wind” is a crook.  I hope he stays close where we can keep an eye on him and learn from his tricks.  That way he can’t corrupt so many other sites.

**************

I’m a crook am I? Just what laws have I broken? Can you cite ONE criminal statute at a federal, state or local level you even THINK I broke?  Can you show ANY evidence of it?  The answer is NO!

All I am is an American citizen DARING to express an opinion that’s different than yours. That, to you, obviously is the definition of a crook.

Thinking that way is UN-AMERICAN!  DISSENT and disagreement ARE the American Way!

You are such a lying asshole you don’t even know the definition of “crook”. You are just another neo-nazi propagandist throwing out any shit to can just to see if it sticks.

Try this: Until you ACTUALLY have an argument to post (even a bad, fallacious one) don’t post.

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By John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 20, 2007 at 6:20 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

With a huge lobby force of 2000:

4. The Unopposed War Lobby

by James Petras

The Zionist Power Configuration (ZPC) has over two thousand full-time functionaries, more than 250,000 activists, over a thousand billionaire and multi-millionaire political donors who contribute funds both political parties. The ZPC secures 20% of the US foreign military aid budget for Israel, over 95% congressional support for Israel’s boycott and armed incursions in Gaza, invasion of Lebanon and preemptive military option against Iran…..

http://www.bestcyrano.org/cyrano/?p=90

(I don’t remember voting for Israel or Pharmaceuticals or any of the other lobbying bastards that infect this nation like so many termites.  They have a lot more power over things with their dirty money than I do.)

Instead of throwing filth hoping that something will stick…

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By Inherit The Wind, July 20, 2007 at 9:39 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

How ironic. These are exactly the words that I should be saying to you, but you’re really not worth the energy Wind.

What are you, 7 years old? “Nah, nah I’m rubber, you’re glue, whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you!”

And, not to worry, I’m having no problems defending my academic work. I wouldn’t publish it otherwise. It has been through the most rigorous of intellectual scrutiny.

Yeah, all the holocaust deniers like to say that too.  I’ve SEEN what you post. I’ll stand by my judgement of your capabilities before I’ll bow to your anonymous “most rigorous…” I’m not worried. It’s not keeping me up nights.  Thanks for your concern.

Consequently, I will spare you any reading of it. It’s more truth than your mind could ever handle,

Yeah, I’m clearly so dumb I have to stick to Melvyn Paul Leffler and Steven Schuker for history.  Heck, anything more complicated than Carl Sagan’s “Demon-Haunted World” and I’m LOST!

And James Joyce, Ernest Hemingway and Thomas Pynchon are beyond me so I have to stick to the bunny slopes of literature and read Umberto Eco, Thomas Wolfe, Herman Melville, Tom Stoppard and Mark Twain.  And shame of shames—I like Tolkien and Rowling—I’m SO STUPID!  I even read (gasp!) Tom Clancy and Sue Grafton!

I only read “Atlas Shrugged” for the sex scenes…but that way I can say I’ve read Ayn Rand…


and I sure don’t wanna be the one responsible for actually getting you to “go away”. I was just hoping you’d do it on you own.

No such luck, eh?

Nope.  Figured that out all on your own, didja?

Have a nice day!

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By cyrena, July 20, 2007 at 12:01 am Link to this comment

Flash! Cyrena—You are entitled to your own opinion. You are NOT entitled to your own facts.  And you’ll never be a scholar until you learn that. Until then you are just another anti-Semitic pro-Arab propagandist
*********************

How ironic. These are exactly the words that I should be saying to you, but you’re really not worth the energy Wind.

And, not to worry, I’m having no problems defending my academic work. I wouldn’t publish it otherwise. It has been through the most rigorous of intellectual scrutiny.

Consequently, I will spare you any reading of it. It’s more truth than your mind could ever handle, and I sure don’t wanna be the one responsible for actually getting you to “go away”. I was just hoping you’d do it on you own.

No such luck, eh?

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By Bukko in Australia, July 19, 2007 at 7:28 pm Link to this comment

Ernest, I agree with you again. The best way to change things, for us little people, that is, is to work on people one by one. I’m always talking to people about what I see as the truth, in simple, understandable, usually humourous ways. If you speak the truth to working-class people, even if they’re right-wing, they’ll agree with you.

It’s not like you’re going to give them a “Saul on the road to Damascus” total conversion moment. But little by little, you can open up their thinking to slight changes. I did it with the apathetic and uninformed people I met in the U.S. (and with patients, families and co-workers in hospital, I had lots of chances) and now I do it here. If all of us worked on the interpersonal level, that’s the definition of a grassroot movement.

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By John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 19, 2007 at 6:12 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“Inherit the Wind” is a crook.  I hope he stays close where we can keep an eye on him and learn from his tricks.  That way he can’t corrupt so many other sites.

My neighbors are professional and working class.  The big sign on my front lawn does most of the work.  It says, “GOP Scams Stab You Front and Back.  Dems Tidy Up”.  I never try to convert people (especially Republicans) with facts or ideas.  I usually tease them to death complimenting them on their jackboots, etc.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 19, 2007 at 11:55 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

cyrena on 7/18 at 8:07 pm
(407 comments total)

**********************

So John, this is probably true. So, how do we get beyond this “wind”? I mean, can you make him or her just GO AWAY…at least for a while?

******************

Yeah. Heaven forbid you actually have to defend the crap you write, that you actually have to have it scrutinized for fecal contamination.  If I go away you and the others can all have your circle jerk in peace.

You don’t LIKE my calling you on where your “reasoning” is taking you. Too bad. The signs are all there—it’s all happened before, and the result was catastrophic.

George Santayana wrote “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”

Flash! Cyrena—You are entitled to your own opinion. You are NOT entitled to your own facts.  And you’ll never be a scholar until you learn that. Until then you are just another anti-Semitic pro-Arab propagandist.

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By John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 19, 2007 at 8:51 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The best way to take on a bunch of crooks is to ring the alarm bell and expose them.  (Then they will move on.)  The use of force and fraud is universal with almost every pack of humans, so liberals should watch for it.  Crooks love the cheap sense of superiority that they enjoy from manipulating others.  (The cheaper the trick the better.)  Liberals are particularly susceptible to senseless attacks on their morality - racism, anti-semitism, anti-Americanism, etc.  Liberals want to think of themselves as choir boys, so they fall for these things very predictably, and they try to defend themselves taking a weak position.  (The way to deal with this is just to call a crook a crook.  Ann Coulter is a crook.  George Bush is a crook.  All Republicans are crooks.)

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By cann4ing, July 19, 2007 at 8:47 am Link to this comment

To John Hanks, if your neighbors are middle or working class than they have “nothing” in common with your Republi-crook Congressional “leaders.”  I would encourage you to link to http://www.democracynow.org  and http://www.kucinich.us  then get your neighbors to do the same.  You will accomplish more by reaching out; helping to educate the uninformed and misinformed, than you will by simply trying to irritate them.

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By cann4ing, July 19, 2007 at 8:39 am Link to this comment

ITW, let me add a brief comment to my previous post.  The subtitle of Norman Finkelstein’s “Beyond Chutzpah” is “On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History.”

The reason that you do not want to read Finkelstein’s solid, academic work is because it that a book that describes the misuse of anti-Semitism is a book that describes “you.”

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By the 1Sgt, July 19, 2007 at 4:34 am Link to this comment

How to create an angry American

Video:

http://www.milkandcookies.com/link/64513/detail/

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By John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 18, 2007 at 10:04 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

My congress persons are all Republican filth.  I still writeto them but it is much more useful to discuss things with friends and acquaintances.  Afflict the Comfortable and Comfort the Afflicted.  I have signs all over my car that do just that.  They say, “Republlicans Return to Their Vomit” or “Cheney Ordered 911”, etc.  I don’t try to convert.  I intend to annoy.

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By Bukko in Australia, July 18, 2007 at 9:19 pm Link to this comment

So much sound and fury, from all sides, ultimately signifying nothing. You’d do much better if you spent some of that energy writing a Congressperson. All of yez! (Writea Republican. Pretend you’re from THEIR district. That’s fun…)

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By cyrena, July 18, 2007 at 9:07 pm Link to this comment

John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming on 7/18 at 10:46 am
(Unregistered commenter)

“Inherit the Wind” is just baiting this post to keep real ideas and facts from being expressed.  He could be anything.  Zionist, Nazi, Jewish, Adolescent -whatever.  He does have a stake in channeling and stifling the conversation.
**********************

So John, this is probably true. So, how do we get beyond this “wind”? I mean, can you make him or her just GO AWAY…at least for a while?

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By the 1Sgt, July 18, 2007 at 8:29 pm Link to this comment

#87843 by Inherit The Wind on 7/18 at 4:57 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

I’m not the one who needs help.

================================================

Unfortunately, you do need help. Thank you for your contribution. Please drive to windownumber 2.

[SMILE]

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By cyrena, July 18, 2007 at 8:28 pm Link to this comment

#87628 by Inherit The Wind on 7/18 at 4:47 am

•  As for you, Cyrena—self-proclaimed “scholar” (what a joke! As an undergrad I was a better, more critical and less judgmental researcher than you EVER will be!)—I have NO idea who Lefty or Lilmamzer are. You may not believe this but there are many of their positions I do not agree with.

Actually wind, I DO believe the part about you not necessarily agreeing with all of these positions, so we’ll just talk about what YOU have written, under this particular handle. And, it’s mostly a bunch of shit. You keep putting words in other folks’ mouths, and consistently accusing them of things….such as the above. You don’t know me, you’ve never been privy to any of my work, so you should just STFU!!!

Here’s another example:

•  Never once have you said “wait a minute: Maybe the Israelis weren’t wrong about this!”

PLEASE Wind, the Israelis weren’t wrong about WHAT? The ethic cleansing? The genocide? The now 40 year old apartheid? The imprisonment of so many thousands of innocent people? Please. Tell me what it is, that the Israelis aren’t WRONG about? If there are some things that the Israelis haven’t done WRONG, please point out to me, what those things are, so that I can become as objectively scholarly as you claim to be. Just tell me a FEW things, that would somehow balance the scales a little bit, so that I can objectively consider some things that YOU know, that obviously have not shown up in any of the books that I’ve read, or any of the journals that I’ve read, or any of what I have experienced first hand, in the Israeli Military Court system, as it presides over the Palestinians as we speak.

Somehow help me erase from my memory, the appearance of an open air prison, teaming with humanity that is a big mass of human SUFFERING, that is Gaza, or any of the multiple refugee camps that dot the Middle East; The ones that I’ve seen –with my eyes-. Find a way to explain all of this to me, in a way that says….”well, maybe the Israelis really aren’t WRONG about this? Or, is it even any of “this” that you’re talking about?

Then there’s this:
•  That’s why you are no scholar—you know the answers before you ask the questions and you don’t let facts clutter up “the truth”.  Your bias is in place so you ignore what doesn’t fit your pre-conceived notion.

This is probably as far across the pole as you could get with me, but it’s to be expected, but this finale tells me you haven’t been taking your meds:

•  But that doesn’t mean I don’t recognize that fake scholars like you are laying the groundwork for a resurgance of organized Anti-Semitism, purges, and ultimately genocide.  It’s simply history repeating itself by those who failed to learn from it.

And I’m calling you on it.

You’re way out of line Wind, and you aren’t calling ME, on any of this kind of bullshit. You want to make everybody an anti-Semite, and you can’t. You want to accuse everybody around you, of “laying groundwork” for a resurgence of anti-Semitism. And, I’ll say it again, you are full of shit. I am far too busy dodging the effects of racism and sexism myself, to consider perpetrating the same against another group of people, for ANY reason. It would be the ANTITHSIS, of how I’ve spent my first career, and how I’m planning to spend the 2nd and 3rd careers.

And guess what? I don’t EVER anticipate hatred toward ANY group of people, and that includes Jews, whether they are here, or in Israel, or in any OTHER damn part of the world. And for NOW, I am STILL very opposed to giving my hard earned dollars to Israel, when I see absolutely NOTHING in return for it. Yes, this is one “fact” that I am bothered with. All of the money that the U.S. gives to Israel. I’m very bothered.

Sorry you don’t get it, but I still think meds would help.

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By cann4ing, July 18, 2007 at 6:32 pm Link to this comment

Oh, so now, ITW, one of this nation’s leading Jewish-American scholars is a “known apologist?”  I simply find no credibility whatsoever when someone critiques any academic work, especially an exhaustively research piece like Prof. Finkelstein’s “Beyond Chutzpah” without taking the time to read what the author has to say. 

You claim to be an agnostic.  I am an atheist.  So what does that have to do with the basic point, confirmed by your post, that you will continue to criticise someone whom you have never read? 

Sorry, ITW, but your latest post, along with all that preceded it, underscores a lack of intellectual integrity.  Truly, I wish it were not so.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 18, 2007 at 6:08 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming on 7/18 at 10:46 am
(Unregistered commenter)

“Inherit the Wind” is just baiting this post to keep real ideas and facts from being expressed.  He could be anything.  Zionist, Nazi, Jewish, Adolescent -whatever.  He does have a stake in channeling and stifling the conversation.

Well, I apologize if I’m getting in the way of all the justifications for a renewal of good, old-fashioned Jew-hating here.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 18, 2007 at 5:57 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Disagreement with US policy/politics of favoring Israel in a war that is essentially none of our business is not anti-semitism, nor is it hate.

No, it’s not. But that’s not what you have posted consistently.

Listen, you’ve got some mental problems…you don’t make any sense…you respond with wild accusations and I don’t have the time to waste like this on you. When you start actually addressing the issues at hand then maybe we can pick this back up.

Yeah, in the old Soviet Union they used to regularly send dissidents to mental hospitals because they couldn’t IMAGINE how a sane person could challenge their “Utopia”. (They also did it to silence critics).

I’m not the one imagining that our nation is somehow demoniacally and magically in the grip of Zionists, that they control the Congress, the WH, the banking system and the MSM and are deliberately destroying our nation.

I’m not the one imagining that it was Mossad and not Al Qaeda that that was behind 9/11, that it was a secret Israeli plot to attack her BEST ally.

I’m not the one who complained that too many Jews are in power in Washington.

I’m not the one who accused ITW of being a traitor for preferring the democratic and free state of Israel to the dictatorships of the Arab world.

I’m not the one living in fantasy land.

I’m not the one who needs help.

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By the 1Sgt, July 18, 2007 at 3:26 pm Link to this comment

#87628 by Inherit The Wind on 7/18 at 4:47 am
(Unregistered commenter)

No, you don’t hate Jews. You just hate EVERYTHING about Jews.
===================================================
NO, you are wrong again.

Disagreement with US policy/politics of favoring Israel in a war that is essentially none of our business is not anti-semitism, nor is it hate.

Listen, you’ve got some mental problems…you don’t make any sense…you respond with wild accusations and I don’t have the time to waste like this on you. When you start actually addressing the issues at hand then maybe we can pick this back up.

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By John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 18, 2007 at 11:46 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“Inherit the Wind” is just baiting this post to keep real ideas and facts from being expressed.  He could be anything.  Zionist, Nazi, Jewish, Adolescent -whatever.  He does have a stake in channeling and stifling the conversation.

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By cann4ing, July 18, 2007 at 9:09 am Link to this comment

Max, excellent post.  There is no more validity today in attempting to equate opposition to the atrocities carried out by the Zionist Israeli government in the 21st Century with anti-Semitism than to equate opposition to the fascism of Mussolini’s Italy in the 1930s & 40s with somehow being anti-Italian or, since Italy’s principle religion is Roman Catholic, with being anti-Catholic.  As revealed by Prof. Finkelstein, the effort to conflate opposition to Zionist policies into a “new anti-Semitism” is intellectually dishonest.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 18, 2007 at 8:57 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Ernest Canning on 7/18 at 7:23 am
(646 comments total)

ITW, IF you had any integrity, you would read “Beyond Chutzpah” by Prof. Norman Finkelstein.  You will note that I capitalized IF.  I am not going to hold my breath waiting for you to do so.

****************

So now you’re an expert on my integrity? Meanwhile, ol’ GodSend says if I had any integrity I’d become a Jew for Jesus and abandon Agnosticism. It’s SOOO confusing!! Which of you is right?????

Thankfully, my integrity is not based on YOUR binary test of whether I’ve read a known apologist’s discounted work.  Nor is it based on GodSend’s opinion.  I neither desire nor seek your good opinion of me Ernest, hard as that may be to believe.

But I know people with numbers on their arm and I’m going to do my DAMNDEST to make sure my children and their children never have those tatoos or anything similar.  THAT is integrity, my friend!

You can all go back to your “It’s all the fault of the Jews—OOPS!! I meant Zionists!(chortle)” love fest.

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By Max Shields, July 18, 2007 at 8:42 am Link to this comment

This is not about Jews. It is about Zionism and Israeli policies. Hiding behind the Holocaust is what the Zionist have done; and when they think it will work they label those against those policies - anti-semitic. It gets us nowhere.

I think the relationship between Israel and the US is mostly at the policy level. It is not one signed onto by either the Israeli or US citizenry. The modern state of Israel is a Western imperialist state, on a much smaller scale then the US empire. The people in both countries are, by the very fact that they partake in the social exchanges provided by government policies. complicit with these policies even though we did not overtly sanction them (and perhaps are strongly against them when asked).

The US in Iraq is part of its long time imperialistic history. it dovetails into Israel but Israel’s interest is not the CENTRAL force that drove the invasion and occupation.

I think we go down a slippery slope when we conflate Judasim and Jews with Israel and US hegemonic and colonialistic policies.

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By John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 18, 2007 at 8:32 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The bloody shirt of Anti-Semitism is used to shut people up just like the bloody shirt of Communism or Wimpism or whatever.  Right-wing filth almost always use similar playground tactics.  It is their way, because they rarely have any facts or ideas at their disposal.  Most of their block headed ideas are solidified around 5th grade and they spend the rest of their shallow lives trying maintain their ignorance and impose their notions on everyone else.

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By cann4ing, July 18, 2007 at 8:23 am Link to this comment

ITW, IF you had any integrity, you would read “Beyond Chutzpah” by Prof. Norman Finkelstein.  You will note that I capitalized IF.  I am not going to hold my breath waiting for you to do so.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 18, 2007 at 5:47 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

No, I do not hate Jews or anyone from Israel. Again, disagreement with them (you) about the way US foreign policy is conducted is not ant-semitism, it is not hate, it is not calling for genocide, or the extermination of a people. I have a right, as a US citizen to question my governments policies around the world.

Stop responding with your emotions and instead respond to the facts issues posted by people.

...You really need some help dealing with what YOU KNOW IS PATENTLY TRUE and having an effect on you.

*********************

No, you don’t hate Jews. You just hate EVERYTHING about Jews. You fantasize that Jews magically, demonically control the WH, Congress, the MSM, and, that old standby, the Intl Banking Sys.  Now, you’ve changed your tune to “Let’s just re-evaluate US Policy”.  Fine. That’s a GREAT idea, since Pres Bozo has managed to fuck up everything he’s touched—or ignored.  But that’s NOT what you’ve been saying: You’ve been laying out the CLASSIC Nazi argument of International Jewry in a secret conspiracy to force America to go against her best interests in supporting Israel.

All fantasy. And what do you cite? Jews are over-represented in the House and Senate. So What? Catholics are over-represented on the USSC—5 of 9—and they are doing MORE to hurt America than Israel could EVER do!
(My apologies to Catholics—many are politically liberal and disagree with the Vatican).

Where was your outrage at the Catholic Church threatening John Kerry & his voters with excommunication because he supports the right to abortion?  Are they all traitors too?

Hey! Jews are just getting in the way of you tanking up your Hummer—you gotta pay $3/gallon. Tough shit.  Jimmy Carter had it right back in 1977 but RR and GHWB and GWB undid it or we wouldn’t be IN this mess!

The Saudis HATE the Israelis and they have used their oil to bend US policy against Israel.  Had we followed Carter’s lead, dependence on Arab oil would have been BROKEN 20years ago.  Then, they could not keep sabotaging peace efforts between Israel and the Palestinians.  NONE of them could have kept funding Arafat et al.  When Rabin offered Arafat THE BEST DEAL the Palestinians are EVER going to get from Israel, he would NOT have said no.

But the Saudis are plugged into the Bush family—they exert FAR more influence, and personal influence on George W. Bush and George H.W. Bush than ANY Israeli.

I’m not the one who needs therapy—I don’t see a vast, imaginary Jewish conspiracy to control and destroy America. I don’t fantasize that the 9/11 attack was really engineered by THE PEOPLE WHO NEED US MOST just because, being Jews, they are Satanic and self-destructive JUST to do evil.

But you, Schultzie, have put that idea out there, and tried with your bigoted buds to support it—with Palestinian propaganda web sites!

As for you, Cyrena—self-proclaimed “scholar” (what a joke! As an undergrad I was a better, more critical and less judgmental researcher than you EVER will be!)—I have NO idea who Lefty or Lilmamzer are. You may not believe this but there are many of their positions I do not agree with.

But that doesn’t matter.  You are part of Schultz’s (and others’) “amen corner”. Never once have you said “wait a minute: Maybe the Israelis weren’t wrong about this!” 

OTOH I sure have been critical of Israeli policy, particularly in Lebanon, and the right-wing Likud. I am open in that I have detested Sharon since BEFORE the 1982 massacre. That’s why you are no scholar—you know the answers before you ask the questions and you don’t let facts clutter up “the truth”.  Your bias is in place so you ignore what doesn’t fit your pre-conceived notion.

But that doesn’t mean I don’t recognize that fake scholars like you are laying the groundwork for a resurgance of organized Anti-Semitism, purges, and ultimately genocide.  It’s simply history repeating itself by those who failed to learn from it.

And I’m calling you on it.

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By the 1Sgt, July 18, 2007 at 3:30 am Link to this comment

#87583 by Inherit The Wind on 7/17 at 7:35 pm
(Unregistered commenter)
So stop pretending. Come out of the closet. Be honest FOR ONCE and admit it: YOU HATE EVERY FUCKING LOUDMOUTH JEW ON EARTH!
BTW, I already know that—and so does everyone reading this.  So stop faking it already.
====================================================
No, I do not hate Jews or anyone from Israel. Again, disagreement with them (you) about the way US foreign policy is conducted is not ant-semitism, it is not hate, it is not calling for genocide, or the extermination of a people. I have a right, as a US citizen to question my governments policies around the world.

Stop responding with your emotions and instead respond to the facts issues posted by people.

Based on what I have seen you respond with, I do know some things about you and the one thing I strongly recommend is you talk to a therapist about your feelings. You really need some help dealing with what YOU KNOW IS PATENTLY TRUE and having an effect on you.

People in the United States are TIRED OF IT. NO MORE WARS for ISRAEL. NO MORE aid, no more WEAPONS so Israel can use them on Arabs, and Arabs in turn identify the US with Israel.

Israel is not a state in our Union. It is it’s own country. We do not owe them an existence.

BE AN AMERICAN, you WINDBAG.

STAND for your birthplace. Have some moral principles. What is happening in the middle east is WRONG, and you know it. We should not be part of it, as Americans.

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By cyrena, July 18, 2007 at 3:09 am Link to this comment

#87583 by Inherit The Wind on 7/17 at 7:35 pm

ITW: ATTENTION…

STOP!!! Nobody around here (on this site) seems to hate Jews as much as YOU DO!! You have some problems. You need to address them. There are professionals available. DO IT!!

And, if you happen to be operating as “lefy” or “lilmamzer” as well as the ITW handle, then you know that I’ve suggested this before. I wasn’t kidding. Get HELP!!

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By John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 17, 2007 at 10:33 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The biggest mistake that liberals make is that they think men are moral actors.  They are not.  They are moralizing actors.  The assumption that men can make themselves better is like assuming that someone can raise themselves by their bootstraps.  For most of us it is only our institutions that protect us - bad as they are.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 17, 2007 at 8:35 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

BOOOO HOOOOOO….I guess we should all feel soooo sorry for Israelis because the American public is waking up and is starting to realize the truth.

You just DON’T GET IT.

Disagreement with US foreign policy FAVORING Israel at the expense of the United States DOES NOT mean a Holocaust or setting up a genocide. It becomes at our expense when we get attacked by your Arab enemies and we fight YOUR wars and WE PAY Israel BILLIONS every year—-for WHAT?

You’re a Jew, you identify with Israel more than you do the country that BORE you. That is a problem for you. You will need to deal with that.

Americans DO NOT want to send their kids off to war to KILL ARABS because YOUR relatives in Israel cannot make peace with the people they live next to (BY FORCE).

It SUCKS, but that’s what it is.

*****************

Why don’t you stop dicking around and ADMIT IT! You fuckin’ HATE Jews. Pushy, argumentative, never give in, always have to have the LAST word, always looking for a clever argument. You fuckin’ HATE them! After all we are man for man better at politics, better at getting our kids educated, better at sticking together.

And, dammit, not a goddam one of us from Atheist to Ultra-Orthodox is willing to let Israel get washed away so you don’t have to pay $3/gallon for gas to put in your Navi-gulper!  Damn annoying, get-in-the-way Jews!

Oh, yeah scads of us FOUGHT and DIED for this country, even built you a nuclear sub force, but deep down YOU know it’s all just a trick and Jews are nothing but traitors.

Are you Irish? Do you know how many MILLIONS of dollars Americans POURED into the coffers of the IRA—a BLATANTLY terrorist organization.  What about them, huh?  Or they don’t count…

So come on, ADMIT what’s behind EVERY one of your posts: You HATE Jews and you don’t even know why. But you’ll make up ANY shit you can get away with to try to convince people all Jews are EVIL.  That’s why you make up and post any stupid lie about me you can think of. You don’t know JACKSHIT about me, but that doesn’t keep YOU from posting it.

So stop pretending. Come out of the closet. Be honest FOR ONCE and admit it: YOU HATE EVERY FUCKING LOUDMOUTH JEW ON EARTH!

BTW, I already know that—and so does everyone reading this.  So stop faking it already.

But don’t look now—the Asians are marching right into the same places the Jews have been for the last century—leaders in schooling, medicine, business, music (90-95% of the band in my kid’s school are Asian).  And they are going to push too for what they want.  Just like Jews, just like everybody else.  Only the Asians are taking exactly the same route the Jews took—education, education, education!  And they look to THEIR homeland and try to help it too! And LOOK at the success. China has us by the THROAT! They float the Yuan and you’ll be eating out of a garbage can—in 6 months or less! I guess every one of Chinese-Americans must be traitors too, in Sgt. Schultz’s book.

So you better get ready to hate them too. Only you have a BIGGGGG problem—there 1.3 billion people in China alone! And they pose a REAL threat to us, not some invented Arabian Nights fantasy!

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By the 1Sgt, July 17, 2007 at 7:40 pm Link to this comment

#87500 by Inherit The Wind on 7/17 at 1:12 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

...and the usual suspects post the usual posts that all the troubles in the world are due to Israel, which is, of course, code or “newspeak” for the longest-running scapegoats in the world, The Jews.

And, of course, the same usual suspects will protest that they aren’t against Jews while they busily lay the intellectual groundwork and justifications for the next holocaust. There’s always a “good” reason for setting up a genocide. Just ask the killers.

Truthdig should now post a swastika for all the neo-nazi garbage it posts here
=================================================

BOOOO HOOOOOO….I guess we should all feel soooo sorry for Israelis because the American public is waking up and is starting to realize the truth.

You just DON’T GET IT.

Disagreement with US foreign policy FAVORING Israel at the expense of the United States DOES NOT mean a Holocaust or setting up a genocide. It becomes at our expense when we get attacked by your Arab enemies and we fight YOUR wars and WE PAY Israel BILLIONS every year—-for WHAT?

You’re a Jew, you identify with Israel more than you do the country that BORE you. That is a problem for you. You will need to deal with that.

Americans DO NOT want to send their kids off to war to KILL ARABS because YOUR relatives in Israel cannot make peace with the people they live next to (BY FORCE).

It SUCKS, but that’s what it is.

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By John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 17, 2007 at 7:28 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Ever since I learned that 5 Mossad agents were arrested soon after the 911 stunt, my attitude toward Israel and the Neocons (who enjoy dual citizenship) has changed.  There is no law that says Israelis can’t be crooks just like everyone else.

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By jbart, July 17, 2007 at 7:11 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The stories being told are beyond sad. In fact, I think that they’re disgusting. To subject our kids, the future of our country to what we have is….nothing short of criminal. As an FYI, I read all of the opinions expressed before commenting. Here’s my read, in a nutshell. To all of you guys, keep it up. Maybe, just maybe, a change can start to take hold to reclaim America. But, I’d also like to say a few things,as my own thoughts.
Cyrena,1st SGT, Earnest C.,Vet240,ctbrandon, mudwallow,noncredo,AMC ...I respect you all and your determination to attewmpt to “right the ship”.
But to ITW…
Here’s a challenge. To the best of your ability, and without attacking me for my intelligence level, nor my opinions….What the hell is this “garbage” you posted under #87500 really about? Another “sad” example of the notorious “Jewish Guilt Complex” that I’ve heard my entire life? What the expression again? Oye Vie es Mea? a.k.a. oh, woe is me. You poor, poor, oppressed person. My heart really bleeds for you. How is it that, instead of addressing the “attrocious” and “barbaric” behaviour of the Mossad, you choose to play the “please feel sorry for us” card instead of attempting a justification.
As you finished it you said…
“Truthdig should now post a swastika for all the neo-nazi garbage it posts here.”
As Howard Stern (who I listen to) and Don Imus have often said to critics….Just Change the Channel. No one is forcing you to listen.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 17, 2007 at 2:12 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

...and the usual suspects post the usual posts that all the troubles in the world are due to Israel, which is, of course, code or “newspeak” for the longest-running scapegoats in the world, The Jews.

And, of course, the same usual suspects will protest that they aren’t against Jews while they busily lay the intellectual groundwork and justifications for the next holocaust. There’s always a “good” reason for setting up a genocide. Just ask the killers.

Truthdig should now post a swastika for all the neo-nazi garbage it posts here.

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By John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 17, 2007 at 12:48 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“Let us have a little less of ‘hands across the sea,’ and a little more of that elemental distrust that is the security of nations.  War loves to come like a thief in the night; professions of eternal amity provide the night.”

The same goes for soldiers.  Wars are cooked up by crooks and fought by suckers.

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By Outraged, July 17, 2007 at 3:43 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

In reference to:
#86704 by Where are the Iraqi voices? on 7/13 at 2:17 pm

“Sorry to be so unPC.  But can you imagine a similar ‘confession memoir’ by Nazi concentration camp guards- and having to feel sympathy for them because they suffered guilt for having tortured the Jews?”

I agree.  Had everyone stood up against these atrocities they wouldn’t have been so prevalent.  But then doesn’t it put US (those of us who are not soldiers) also on the same playing field?  FINALLY, Americans are speaking up but does it exonerate our initial silence (waging war without proof)?  I don’t think so.  Are we yet ready to share the blame?  Can we say “We didn’t know” and now it’s all OK?  Get ready, because even if Iraq doesn’t point the finger, the world will.  Sorry, I didn’t realize, I was shopping just doesn’t cut it.

Still, I commend the soldiers for speaking up and speaking out and letting the truth be known.

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By John Hanks, Laramie, Wyoming, July 16, 2007 at 7:18 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

When will people learn that war is about betrayal.  Dubious battles, interrupted supplies, human cruelty.

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By Bukko in Australia, July 16, 2007 at 12:03 am Link to this comment

1stSarge, you asked where else U.S. troops had treated prisoners that way? The Confederate POW camp in Andersonville, Ga. comes to mind, but that was neglect as much as calculated cruelty. And the “tiger cages” in Vietnam, although they were more ARVN-run than U.S., as I recall. And what’s the acronym for the prisoner survival training that Special Ops troops go through? What was done in Abu Ghraib is like a for-real version of that prep.

As bad as Mossad is, at least they get some useful information out of their captives, and they’re doing it with an understanding of the culture they’re oppressing. The sad thing about the brutality in the Iraq occupation is that it’s all for nothing. You’ve got 125,000 scared, angry soldiers and Marines there who have no way to take out their frustrations, so they use the Iraqis as punching bags and target practice. And when someone punches you or shoots your father, you’re going to want to get behind the wheel of a garbage truck full of high explosives. And it goes on and on…

FWTW, I was once grilled by Israeli security. It was the summer of 1980, and I was flying El Al to Tel Aviv. I’m not Jewish, but a lot of my college friends were, so I decided to follow their lead and spend a summer on a kibbutz. (Hey, it’s MY Holy Land too, and it was a cheap way to get a long vacation in the sun.) Before I got on the plane, I was taken to a back room and questioned at length about why I, a goy, was going to Israel when I didn’t know anyone and had no real destination point. The guy didn’t lay a hand on me, and I got on the plane OK, but I felt SCRUTINIZED!

The point is, he was a security guy who knew what he was doing, and had enough judgment to make a threat assessment of me. I compare that to the airport security bozos who go through the “take off your shoes, empty all metal from your pocket” routine and inconvenience all passengers equally, but don’t have the savvy to stop any terrorist who might be smarter than they are. And that doesn’t require a high level of smart…

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By the 1Sgt, July 15, 2007 at 6:16 pm Link to this comment

I think the world of Kucinich and I hope and PRAY for a Ron Paul and Kucinich election but lets face it…not likely.

What I think is this whole thing will play out in stages.

Step 1 is Nov 2008 extinguishes the Republican Party.

Step 2 is the Democrat Party becomes the new center right.

Step 3 is a third party now becomes the only other alternative.

Step 4 is elections in the US are forever changed and a Kucinich or any other person has equal chance in the future.

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By the 1Sgt, July 15, 2007 at 6:09 pm Link to this comment

#87105 by Non Credo on 7/15 at 2:07 pm
(96 comments total)

Ever hear of a book called “The Arab Mind”, by Raphael Pantai?

The Pentagon neocons had a new printing of the book specially produced, as the new bible on the subject of how to treat Arabs. It was actually used to train our officers
=======================================================
Not until today Non Credo but it doesn’t surprise me that the US Army would have it as required reading for Special Ops people. The people in power at the staff level have ZERO clue about the REAL middle east so they rely heavily on the advice of Israelis, our “ALLY”. I mean they probably sit there googley eyed just in the same way Bill Bennett acts like when he brings on Richard Perle on his radio show…you know…people like me wonder how so many very smart people can be fooled.

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By AMC, July 15, 2007 at 6:00 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Although I have to say that stories like these turn my stomach and give me nighmares for months, (I dream about my son being forced into a situation like this) it is true - it’s the sad reality of war.  The ironic thing about this particular war is that it was sold to us as a “war on terror” but our youth is being sent over there, under trained and under equiped without enough quality “management” (if you will) and they, buy circumstances, are being forced into becoming terrorists themselves.  It makes me want to vomit everything I’ve ever eaten in my life.  It makes me so angry - these were normal kids with hopes and dreams and families and futures…not machines trained from childhood to function effectively in a war zone…and because they’ve been thrust into this situation unprepared, even if they make it home, their lives will be ruined.  And for what?  What was it all for?  NOTHING.  Nothing good has been accomplished by this war.

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By Max Shields, July 15, 2007 at 6:00 pm Link to this comment

#87119 by Ernest Canning on 7/15 at 4:37 pm

Appreciate you thoughtful response.

The issue is how can Kucinich break away?

He’s being marginalized by the Democratic machine and mainstream media. Guerrilla marketing is something entrepreneurs and start-ups use to beat the “big guys”. Maybe a page from that book would help.

I support Kucinich (and will canvass for him) but that’s not enough. He’s got to break through if he’s to be anything but a footnote.

I’m not sure if we have the time for incremental gains on the White House. If we did, then I think he should go for a third party. Play it to win, and either win or get enough delegates and votes to make an impact. That looks unlikely if he’s in the Democratic party. A third party run and as many congressional third party candidates as possible.

We’re talking about transformation, but just a new “face”.

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By cann4ing, July 15, 2007 at 5:37 pm Link to this comment

Max, I do think that a groundswell for Kucinich is possible, but not if we sit back and hope the corporate media will so much as cover him.  It is going to require an unprecedented grass roots involvement that would (1) convince others to go to http://www.kucnich.us (2) encouraging that they do the same, and (3) each of us devote what time we can afford to assisting the Kucinich campaign.

The irony is that on issue-after-issue, Kucinich stands with the vast majority of the American electorate.  Yet, few Americans understand that.  The key is to link candidates to issues that truly matter.  Until we find a way to do that, we will continue to experience what Noam Chomsky refers to as a “democracy deficit”—a point that is underscored by the fact that 70% of the American electorate want us out of Iraq now, yet when I observed a CNN broadcast this afternoon, coverage was limited to Bush and a few of the Republican Senators who have questioned the strategy, yet not one Democrat, let alone Mr. Kucinich.

Frankly, if the vast majority of the American electorate understood this, Kucinich would not merely win.  He would win in a landslide.

As far as the Vets, the one way this story could really get before the American public would be through Congressional hearings similar to those that occurred in the 70s when John Kerry, on behalf of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War rose to prominence.  I believe it was Cyrena who noted earlier that this is something being worked on, but each of us can E-mail our representatives and press for it.

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By Max Shields, July 15, 2007 at 1:20 pm Link to this comment

#86981 by Ernest Canning on 7/14 at 9:04 pm

Do you think we could actually get a ground swell for Kucinich?

We need a 3rd party. You know there’s got to be a way to cut through the media, and get information out. I see Democracy Now, but what they cover, the Nation’s article by Chris Hedges and Laila Al-Arian is only good for those who search this stuff out.

Is Hedges story not a major story? Can’t any of these major media outlets be enticed to get this scoop? Ever since the Dems have taken over the congress, there’s even less congressional opposition. It’s all lip service. CNN and PBS Frontline did some pieces on how we were sold the war, but now we have these atrocities and the silence is deafening.

Meanwhile…
At this stage it looks like the senate has just signed onto Joe Lieberman’s “attack Iran” amendment (97 - 0). Hillary and Obama - Aye

The House version of the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2008 (H.R. 1585), passed 397-27. Kucinich and Paul - Nay

http://toshuo.com/2007/senate-passes-lieberman-amendment-on-iran-97-0-war-draws-a-bit-nearer/

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By cyrena, July 15, 2007 at 12:00 pm Link to this comment

#87069 by Ernest Canning on 7/15 at 10:24 am

I just wanted to add to this recommendation…the Alfred McCoy book is among the best, but since I have a “torture” file/library, there are several others.

But, for anybody interested…the film/documentary…
“Road to Abu Ghraib”

Our local Human Rights Watch presented it here several weeks ago, but I’m thinking it may be widely available now. It’s worth seeing, because in it, we hear from some of the soldiers involved, and why they did it. (the torture that is).

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By cann4ing, July 15, 2007 at 11:24 am Link to this comment

the 1Sgt, while the link you provided, accurately describes the reputation of the Mossad, the U.S. really didn’t have to turn to the Mossad for training on how to run an occupation; how to torture.

I would encourage you to read “A Question of Torture” by Prof. Alfred McCoy.  Here is a link to McCoy’s short version presented during a Feb. 17, 2006 interview on Democracy Now!

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/02/17/1522228

“From 1950 to 1962, the CIA ran a massive research project, a veritable Manhattan Project of the mind, spending over $1 billion a year to crack the code of human consciousness, from both mass persuasion and the use of coercion in individual interrogation….They tried LSD,...mescaline,...all kinds of drugs,...electroshock, truth serum, sodium pentathol.  None of it worked.”  The first breakthrough can via a joint CIA/Canadian Board study conducted by Dr. Donald O. Hebb at McGill University, who persuaded “student volunteers” to participate in a study where they would be subjected to sensory deprivation.  “Within 48 hours…they would suffer, first hallucinations, then ultimately breakdown.”  The second breakthrough came via the research analysis of two eminent Cornell University Medical Ctr. neurologists, who, in evaluating Soviet torture techniques, discovered that pain was most effective when “self-inflicted.”  These studies culminated in the 1963 “KUBARK Counterintelligence Interrogation” manual.

McCoy noted that in “the most famous of photographs from Abu Ghraib, of the Iraqi standing on the box, arms extended with a hood over head…you can see the entire 50-year history of CIA torture.”  It can also be seen in the photos of hooded prisoners made to kneel for hours on end in stress positions.

The brutality of U.S. occupation has U.S. historical antecedents in the Phoenix Program in Vietnam and the death squad activity in El Salvador, which was imported to Iraq as the “El Salvador option” under the aegis of Ambassador John Negroponte who has former links to those carrying out death squad activities in Central America during the Reagan admnnistration.

While I don’t doubt Mossad assistance, many of these abominable practices were developed over the years by Americans operating within empire’s covert dimension.

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By the 1Sgt, July 15, 2007 at 6:26 am Link to this comment

Who is John Israel?
He could be one of the secret masterminds behind the Abu Ghraib outrage
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=2558

It is no secret that the Israelis have been “advising” the Americans on how to run the occupation: after all, they have so much experience in the matter, and are more than eager to impart their hard-won expertise. The methods employed by Israeli security forces are quite different from those utilized by the U.S. military: the use of “limited” torture is okay by them, and the Palestinians are no strangers to the sort of treatment meted out to the inmates at Abu Ghraib. So when Senator Akaka asked Cambone what kind of training the contractors had received, my first thought was: The very best!

The Mossad is rightly feared throughout the Middle East, and the world, as the most ruthless (and daring) intelligence agency of them all. Only the KGB ever rivaled its reputation. That they would not hesitate to employ the sort of interrogation methods used to “soften up” the prisoners of Abu Ghraib is beyond dispute: just ask the Palestinians – and Human Rights Watch. That we have imported them, along with their methods, into Iraq seems altogether likely.

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By the 1Sgt, July 15, 2007 at 6:09 am Link to this comment

#87008 by Non Credo on 7/15 at 4:15 am
(93 comments total)

it’s clear the US has learned very well from its Arab- and Muslim-hating, religious-racial supremacist Israeli mentors, isn’t it?
====================================================

Especially the Abu Guraib torture and policies and procedures. Practically mirrored Israeli tactics and certainly approached the detainees from the same dehumanizing POV as the Israelis. There were also a few “contractors” who were either Israelis or dual nationals.

Can anyone think of any other occurrence in US history where US military personnel treated prisoners in this way?

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By Bukko in Australia, July 15, 2007 at 3:38 am Link to this comment

I remember reading about the Russian atrocities in Afghan villages during the 1980s and being disgusted. I remember reading about Lt. William Calley and the My Lai massacre in Vietnam and hoping he was an anomaly. I remember reading about how the Nazis slaughtered their way through Eastern Europe and being horrified.

Now I read this Nation piece and ask “Is the U.S. any different to the Nazis and Soviet communists?”

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By cyrena, July 15, 2007 at 3:07 am Link to this comment

#87000 by the 1Sgt on 7/15 at 1:38 am

Yes 1Sgt, you’re right on target. And yep, these same people I’m talking about, are what I would call intelligent people. But, there’s just something whacky with the thinking. And, I agree with Ernest that it’s mostly been perpetrated by the corporate media, which I personally believe has dumbed people down over the past couple of decades. That is particularly the case with those that I cannot seem to get unglued from Oprah, or other celebrity types. So, the thinking never seems to go beyond the superficial.

But indeed, I keep trying. And, there’s actually been some success I think. But, for some, the process can be slow.

Education is key as well, if only because even the tail end of the boomers are still needing to do some serious contributions, if we’re ever gonna get things back together, because we haven’t done a very good job of turning out our future leaders and other professionals that we count on for so much in our society. It’s criminal that a quality education is not available to EVERY person who wants it, and can DO something with it.

Instead, it’s become more and more difficult to access an education, unless you’re one of those, who…like george, got his daddy to buy him that MBA from Harvard. He didn’t “earn” it any more than he earned his undergraduate degree from Yale. He was too busy playing the board game, “World Domination” and bugging all the rest of his colleagues to play it with them, when they wanted to study.

George has been as asshole all of his life. He came out that way.

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By the 1Sgt, July 15, 2007 at 2:38 am Link to this comment

This is a very interesting conversation. I was stationed in the United Kingdom during the 2004 Election in the US. This is what I saw in the newspaper the day after the election:

http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2004/US-Election-IQ2004.jpg
The Daily Mirror is read in the UK by over 4.5 million people

I can’t tell you how painful it was to be among the British and have to answer for this election. In the UK, we do stand out and it just felt so uncomfortable to have to represent this government posing as a “democracy”.

I agree with you Ernest that uninformed or misinformed is more apropos. But I think that’s just part of the equation because there are various opportunities to be informed these days. The information is available to the uninformed and misinformed the same way it is to us. The other aspect is education in the United States. It is of course sorely lacking. Finally, our government is not really a democracy. The system we have allows only two candidates to compete and both candidates are essentially the same in all positions with the minor differences being in the minute percentage change on the redistribution of wealth and degree of morality. Chew on this: “Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything.” -Joseph Stalin

Cyrena, I have done the same thing you have and received the same response with bible verses or proselytizing. But this and many other types of responses don’t bother me, I just keep plugging at it. The more we can talk t people about it the better it is. The important thing is to stay away from painting yourself a democrat or republican.

Finally, as to “intelligence”. It amazes me how some very intelligent people make the dumbest decisions or take really stupid positions on the issues. I have seen this over and over. People who should know better, and even they can’t pick up on what most of the world knows about us.

BTW, are you both aware Bush the son has an MBA from Harvard?

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By cyrena, July 15, 2007 at 1:19 am Link to this comment

#86981 by Ernest Canning on 7/14 at 9:04 pm
Ernest,

Maybe “stupid” wasn’t the best of terms, but in reality, that’s pretty much what the language is on university campuses these days. The International Community DOES in fact think that we are stupid, and in all fairness, can we really BLAME them?

I mean, a lot of these folks are much younger, and they’re reading from the same books that they think are supposed to apply to “every nation”, and it’s pretty clear that well….the US HASN’T been going along with that.

So, in all honesty, (and I was surprised myself, when I first came across this “sentiment”) the greater international community does have a tendency to hold that view…that Americans are stupid. They seem to understand very well, that it is not the general population of America that is stupid, but rather they certainly see George Bush as such, and it carries over to wondering how so many Americans with this freedom and democracy, and Constitution, can’t get rid of him.

I think there is a basic difference though, between the political activity of other countries..including those in the West, and the current U.S. population.

Still, I definitely agree with this part:

....“There is a fundamental distinction between lack of intellectual capacity and being either uninformed or misinformed.”….

This is oh so true, and as a long time mass-public servant and member of a huge rank-and-file, I’ve had experience figuring out the difference. But, I’ve also discovered that in so many places throughout the country, they are in fact BOTH. I see that more now than I ever did, and it does trouble me. Just being “uninformed” is not a necessarily difficult thing to correct. It’s the un-doing of years worth of damaging MISinformation, that is the far more difficult task.

But yep…I do try to do my part with sharing alternative media, having long been reliant upon them myself, and delighted to have the access, after so long in the oil heatland of America, where the
conglomerated corporate media is….all there is. (or at least it’s all any of them still watch). Moving some of them into the current realities hasn’t been easy. I send them some really PERTINENT and well documented information, (in large print) and they reply with a Bible verse, and a suggestion that “PRAYER” is the VERY BEST THING that we can do for our troops.

Then I get pissed-off and frustrated, until the next day or so, when I try again. Eventually…maybe.

Meantime, that’s probably why Non Credo suggested that Americans were stupid. Unfortunately, that seems to be a new sort of “trend” in thinking these days, and I have a hard time defending against it, if only because they’ve got some valid points.

Just as an aside, with Putin now deciding to withdraw from the European version of the disarmament treaty, doesn’t it just seem like the Cabal has really gone off the deep end?

I mean, is there any reason that we wouldn’t expect Russia, as well as the “host countries” for these missile shields, to be pretty pissed off? That’s what I mean about just going around making enemies wherever we can. See how many countries we can bully and terrorize at the same time. That’s why they think we’re stupid. It’s just such self-destructive behavior.


since the conglomerated corporate media acts as a propaganda network, most Americans are not merely uniformed but misinformed


There is a fundamental distinction between lack of intellectual capacity and being either uninformed or misinformed.”….

since the conglomerated corporate media acts as a propaganda network, most Americans are not merely uniformed but misinformed

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By cyrena, July 14, 2007 at 11:10 pm Link to this comment

Comment#86856 by Ernest Canning on 7/14 at 7:51 am

Ernest, herein lies the greatest tragedy of all; the big “if” that you pose here….

....“If we are still a nation of laws (and the jury is still out on that), the President and Vice President would be immediately impeached, the provisions of the Military Commissions Act which provide an immunity for all crimes committed in service of the so-called “war on terror” (retroactive to 9/11/01) would be repealed, and those responsible would be brought before the same bar of justice as the Nazis at Nuremberg.  “If” we are still a nation where “law” is supreme.”....

The tragedy is that from the initial illegal action, the decision to proceed with the invasion and occupation, even without approval or at least a weigh-in from the UN, seems to have set the stage for all of the other violations to just become totally absurd. From that spawned the torture, and Guantanamo, and all of the other multiple prisons, to the Patriot Act, to the warrentless wiretaps, to the leaks, to the fact that Iraq is a total disaster, and that is yet the worst violation of all, because it has been the US responsibility, from day one of that widely denounced action of invasion, to provide for the population of that country, based on the –rule of law-/ The Geneva Conventions, and so many other treaties. The occupying nation has responsibilities, based on the law, to provide for security and services for the civilian population.

And yet, look at Iraq, another example of destruction in violation of the Supreme laws of the land, on –so many- counts, and yet…they continue to happen. I have yet to see any person or group, or MSM journalist, or anybody really, (besides the nerds in this community) actually put together ANY sort of anything, to call all of these international crimes to attention. Like the paperwork. I need to figure out how to ;put together an international tribunal. Who has to originate that sort of thing? Can we do it here? Is there such a thing as a citizen group filing charges in the ICC?

I mean, I could writeup the list of the crimes, and do all the grunt work, but I have no idea how to get it anywhere further than my computer.


I think maybe these questions have come up before, and I should know….but I don’t.

Meantime, as long as all of these violations continue to be perpetrated, without anybody else, (even other nations) taking any action, I’d say that we are no longer a nation where “law” is supreme, and we haven’t been for nearly 7 years. (if not longer).

So by now, the jury actually IS back in, and that’s the verdict. We’re just completely LAWLESS now. That’s why we might need some help from the international community, (if only we didn’t rule there with a shotgun as well).

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By cann4ing, July 14, 2007 at 10:04 pm Link to this comment

Non Credo & Cyrena:  Sorry, but I take exception to the statement that most Americans are “stupid.”  There is a fundamental distinction between lack of intellectual capacity and being either uninformed or misinformed. 

Because the primary source of information for the conglomerated corporate media, especially television, since the conglomerated corporate media has a virtually monopoly on what most Americans see, hear and read (with some remarkable exceptions via alternative media, especially listener sponsored media like Pacifica and Democracy Now!), since the conglomerated corporate media acts as a propaganda network, most Americans are not merely uniformed but misinformed.

While Mr. Kucinich has proposed restoring the Fairness Doctrine and rolling back media consolidation brought on by the Telecommunications Act of 1996 and manifestly accellerated by the FCC under Bush, that will never happen unless the informed begin directing everyone they know to stop watching the propaganda on Fox, CNN, NBC etc. and begin turning to alternative media. 

If we could only find away to have Amy Goodman and Democracy Now broadcast nightly on prime time over a major network, I guarantee you the American People would not only demonstrate their intelligence, but that we would have such a great awakening that would lead to fundamental change and “real” democracy.

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By cyrena, July 14, 2007 at 7:11 pm Link to this comment

#86863 by Non Credo on 7/14 at 8:15 am

Non Credo: you’re so on the mark here…

.....“Americans don’t understand that pre-emptive, optional wars ARE wars of aggression.

In other words, Americans are kind of stupid.

But that’s not news, is it?”....

No, most Americans don’t get the difference, and yes, it’s (painfully) true that most Americans are kind of stupid. (not all, but still far too many).

And no, that is not news. We could pretty much confirm that, with anybody else on the planet. Most of the people of the REST of the WORLD, also see it for what it is…a war of aggression, and yeah, they think we’re pretty stupid.

Just keep writing.
smile

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By Maelfyn, July 14, 2007 at 5:50 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Bravo.  Amazing journalism here.  This is the best article on the realities of the Iraq occupation.

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