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Last Clinic Standing

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Posted on Jul 13, 2006
Operation Save America/Operation Rescue
From Operation Save America/Operation Rescue

By Sunsara Taylor

(Page 2)

And a look at the cast of characters involved with OSA/OR over the years turns up a ?who?s who? of the Bush regime?s most influential and demanding theocratic supporters. Among them:

  • Tony Perkins, who 14 years ago could be found at Operation Rescue?s siege on the last abortion clinic in Baton Rouge, La. Today that clinic is closed and Perkins is the head of the Family Research Council. He organized the three ?Justice Sunday? events to rally support to hammer through Bush?s theocratic Supreme Court nominees.
  •  

  • Pat Robertson, who not long ago received a phone call from Karl Rove to discuss Samuel Alito before his nomination was made public and who penned the foreword to Operation Rescue founder Randall Terry?s 1988 book. That book detailed the ?righteousness? of defying ?man?s law? and launched the group?s hundreds of violent blockades of abortion clinics.
  •  

  • Randall Terry himself, who became a fixture on nighttime talk programs last year as the lead on-the-ground operative of the theocratic power grab staged in the Terri Schiavo case.
  • At the core of OSA/OR?s efforts is an attempt to tighten the patriarchal chains of tradition. Consider: There is not a single anti-abortion organization in the country that supports birth control. Beverly LaHaye, the founder of Concerned Women for America, a group whose members Bush has sent as delegates* to United Nations commissions on women and children, put it this way: ?The woman who is truly Spirit-filled will want to be totally submissive to her husband…. This is a truly liberated woman. Submission is God?s design for women.?

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    Square, Site wide
    As Benham, the OSA president, explains, it is this same ideal that motivates his thuggish approach to women at the doors of the clinics: ?It seems ugly, my speech. But it?s because we love them that we scream at them. You have to have a bad guy who will confront them.?

     


    In reality, this traditional belief in domination by men and submission by women is exactly what must be uprooted if we are ever going to stem the cases of domestic abuse that have made the home, statistically speaking, the most dangerous place for females in America.

    It is against this backdrop that the ?opposition? of the Democrat Party must be judged.

     

    Sen. Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) has called defending abortion a ?game? the Democrats ?can?t afford to play? any longer.  Sen. Hillary Clinton (D-N.Y.) has called abortion a ?tragic choice,? ceding the moral high ground to religious fanatics when, in fact, abortion should require no shame or apologies. As a key part of regaining seats in the Senate, the Democrats are running the vehemently anti-choice Bob Casey Jr. in Pennsylvania. And revealingly, the Democrats recently unveiled a new ?95/10 Initiative,? which aims at reducing the number of abortions by 95% over the next 10 years?but which doesn?t even mention birth control. 

    What all this proves is not that there?s no popular support for abortion rights, but that the overwhelming popular support that does exist will be rendered worse than meaningless if it continues to rely solely on the Democratic Party.

    The simple truth is that a woman who cannot control her own reproduction has no more freedom than a slave. And if half of humanity is not free, then no one can truly be free.

    The clock is ticking toward the resolution to the battle over abortion. Operation Save America?s website boasts that what the group accomplishes in the streets of Jackson will soon become law throughout the land. 

    On the other side, the World Can?t Wait Bus Tour [http://www.worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2529&Itemid=223]and the Jackson chapter of the National Organization for Women [http://www.now.org/issues/abortion/events/jackson06/] are planning counter-protests all week long. There is little that could be more important this week than joining them in the streets of Jackson to help build a movement to counter the theocratic zealots in the only way it can be done: through the independent political action of millions to drive the Bush regime from power.



    *?With God On Their Side: How Christian Fundamentalists Trampled Science, Policy, and Democracy in George W. Bush?s White House?  by Esther Kaplan, Page 234]



    Sunsara Taylor writes for Revolution newspaper and sits on the advisory board of The World Can?t Wait—Drive Out the Bush Regime.


    New and Improved Comments

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    By Brad, March 19, 2007 at 5:18 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Cite your source for the claim that no anti-abortion groups advocate contraceptives.
    Can you? Or did you make it up? You’re just as bad and ‘fundamentalist’ as the people you hate. You’ll never make anything better because you’ll never be able to find common ground and compromise. That, by the way, is how democracy works. Unless you’re in favor of a non-representative form of government, in which case you’re as bad as Bush.

    Report this

    By xhwfdclmk ktiodspe, August 18, 2006 at 7:17 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    xydjru gxupv shptl sqocmb elgkmb caoipwbju kmoarlsz

    Report this

    By Liz, July 21, 2006 at 8:11 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Sheryl on 7/21 at 10:35 am

    mab ye the rich people were getting an bortion becuase they medically/mentally cant go throught with the pregancy

    also a issue rarely talked about is tubal pregnancy. If I had a tubal I would need to get it aborted or it will kill me. Would you deny a woman to get an abortion for a tubal pregnancy, or a imporperly developed fetus or one that could live blind, deaf,or both, or have physical problems to make thjier lives living hell from day one and caus the parents more heartache and problems.

    You right wingers think that all these rich people who get aborions are doing it out of vanity but you are wrong. Rich people might get them becuase they physically cant have one or they are too young to have one specially if it was my daughter.

    Report this

    By Sheryl, July 21, 2006 at 10:35 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    FAllACY: Fetuses are not babies and can not survive outside the womb during the period in which abortions are permitted, that’s why they are called “fetuses” and not babies.

    Have you ever been in an abortion clinic?! 

    My response: The word “fetus” is a Latin word and it means “little one”. It has nothing to do with born or unborn…it just means little one.

    And YES, I go to abortion clinics in my city most Saturday mornings and attempt to offer the women and their companions hope, help and TRUTH in the name of Jesus. I’ve been doing this for over 17 years and I personally know of over 650 children and their families spared from the horrors of abortion. If they desire, I stay in contact with many moms and I give them baby showers with all kinds of gifts (cribs, car seats, strollers, swings, pack-n-plays, clothes, toys, diapers, etc.)

    Most abortion patients are NOT financially needy. The vast majority of them are well off, monetarily. (Just last week, I had a couple drive in in a brand new Jaguar. You should see the cars in the parking lot each week! You should see the clothes, the fingernails, the hair, the cell hones and IPODS!) About 50% of the patients are black. Only 12% of the population is black, but easily 50% of abortions destroy black children. Abortion kills more blacks than AIDS, heart disease, stroke, poverty, violence…it is the LEADING killer of the black race. You can’t argue with the facts.

    Report this

    By Marina, July 21, 2006 at 6:40 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Liz, maybe you did not know, but no contraception is full proof. Many fail. So because of that fact, a woman’s “right to choose” is still before they have sex.

    In addition, the Church knows that if it openly says contraception is fine to use, then many people will indiscrimately go around having sex without thought and without restraint. There is wisdom behind the church teaching. People need to learn self-control and to raise their consciousness to higher levels instead of the elemental self.

    Report this

    By Liz, July 20, 2006 at 7:32 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    to quote marina:

    Excuse me, but maybe these women ought to think about children being cold or hungry BEFORE they engage in sex. Not all of these women were raped, and you know that. People need to take responsibility BEFORE they procreate. The time to worry about welfare and feeding children is before. That is common sense.
    ————————————————-

    mabye these people planned on using contraception but thier parents couldnt allow it or thier religion has brainwashed them into thinking it’s evil like all you religious right wingers do. Contraception prevents abortions. allow it and promote it and you stop abortions!!!  that’s the only progressive way to decrease the amount of them.

    Report this

    By Marina, July 20, 2006 at 11:00 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Contrary to Aaitje’s opinion, it is not sanctimonious to follow the teachings of Jesus instead of one’s own ideas of what truth and love is. Quite the contrary, it is those who measure things by their own personal ruler which has created much suffering. It is not me who has decided anything. Jesus told us Himself, ‘I give you two commandments, love God with all your heart, mind, and soul, and love one another as I have loved you.’ Yet people like Aaitje cannot understand what this kind of love is, because they do not know Jesus. If they did, they would not support abortion “rights.”

    Aaitje, you have made this a personal issue with me and about me. I won’t go there with you because this is not about me. Abortion is using a violent technique to eradicate the life of an embryo, fetus, or fully developed baby. If that life is left alone then it would most likely be born and be a human being. It has no choice.

    You continue to think that free will means not saying a word about the actions of others. THAT is what you are saying. Whether you see that or not. What *I* am saying is that if a woman decides to kill the life within her then it is murder *most of the time*. I am speaking of the vast majority of cases, which are based in selfishness. Most abortions ARE NOT as a result of rape or incest. Those two cases I do not say a word about because that is something that is between their soul and God. This issue is not black and white, there are of course going to be cases where abortion may be a cleansing for mother and child.

    Jesus’ commandment of LOVE goes for all; me, you, women who abort, Israelis who commit genocide. Jesus showed us with His life and words that anyone who lives a life of hypocrisy, lies, murder, or deceit needs to be put in touch with their selfishness or their cruelty with the TRUTH being spoken or by taking non-violent action to stop what they are doing.

    I don’t support the death penalty, so I don’t know why you brought it up.

    “And NO pro-choice advocate is against trying to save the life of the child.”

    Oh? I know plenty of women who say ‘oh, it’s none of my business, I support the woman’s “right to choose”, I will turn my head while this happens, or maybe even drive her to the abortionist.’

    “and fight for welfare laws to help destitute mothers cope with caring for their children so they won’t go hungry or cold,”

    Excuse me, but maybe these women ought to think about children being cold or hungry BEFORE they engage in sex. Not all of these women were raped, and you know that. People need to take responsibility BEFORE they procreate. The time to worry about welfare and feeding children is before. That is common sense.

    “Your side chooses to believe an embryo is a child—which is a slippery slope since they call themselves prolifers too,...”

    Do not place me with ‘this side or that.’ That is one of the biggest problems in our world. I am center, I do not go right or left or blindly support whatever a particular party does.

    “Your side is against a woman’s right to choose abortion, but praise artificial insemination turning a blind eye to the fact that thousands of petriedish embryos (you believe embryos are babies right?) are frozen, then thrown out like yesterday’s trash when the woman decides to have no more. Shouldn’t you be against this too? “

    Stop making this about *me*. You are incorrect in your personal conclusions. I DO NOT support artificial insemination.

    “Where are the picketers in front of fertility clinics, yelling and shouting “murderers” to those women, and their husbands at fertility clinics? “

    I do not support this either.

    I am not here to convince you of anything, only to support the truth and to defend the unborn with it. Other people besides you read this and sometimes remain silent -but they read. I am here to put my grain of sand out to the world. If it goes unheard -at least I tried.

    “You’re just supporting my contention, that anti-abortionist are hypocrites, and anti-women advocates.”

    You support nothing but your own ignorance and your own incorrect conclusions about my stance. ASK before you assume.

    FYI, Israel is the state of Jews. Judaism is a religion. They plow down Palestinians, and now the Lebanese because they think that their god gave the Jews land and that he told them they can kill and rob them.

    “Israeli defend their right in the ME because of rabid religious fanatics on the Muslim side who vehemently believe they don’t have this right, and Israeli don’t *start* the wars. They don’t practice “genocide”. They *defend* themselves when attacked”

    You are an ignorant and uninformed human being and you contribute to the suffering of the Arabs because of that. Inform yourself. You are also highly uninformed about the pope and Hitler. You listen to too much Israelis propaganda. Read history and use sources that are not controlled and run and published by the Zionists.

    You are correct about the problem with child abusing priests, but you do not know that this problem is the result of Vatican Two, communist infiltration of the seminaries, and Masonic influences in the Catholic Church.

    Marina wrote: “Jesus is contrary to death and violence.”

    Aaitje writes: “The majority of anti-choicers who claim to follow “his standard”, aren’t. They’ve proven that already.”

    They have nothing to do with Jesus. His teachings remain, even if human beings try and defile them.

    “Don’t you think it’d be more useful to focus on eradicating the above-mentioned ills in the world FIRST, before eradicating a woman’s right to choose? “

    A country which has millions of women who murder their own child can never be a country that can change the other evils you spoke of. Laws will also not stop these women. They will abort even if there are laws against it, their consciousness has to change. Just like the consciousness of the Israelis and the Bush Administration has to change. I don’t hold out hope for any of them.

    “I’m sorry that not every woman is as perfect as you believe yourself to be.”

    That is a cop-out statement used because you have no other stance to support the murder of one’s own child. You attack me because you have no valid answers.

    That’s right, we don’t live in a perfect world, you say I don’t understand that fact. You are -once again- mistaken. Human beings have the ability to change this world with their consciousness but they are too self-absorbed and care more about sex, “choice”, and being people-pleasers, than to stop the injustices of the world. Free will does not mean the right to choose whatever we want to do, it is the right to choose what we ought to.

    Report this

    By Hondo, July 20, 2006 at 8:19 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Helen, with all due respect, you have misunderstood what Numbers 5 is saying. The passage you quoted is not about priests giving women abortions. The passage refers to God, through the priests, cursing adulterous women by making them barren. There is nothing in the passage that in any way, shape or form condones abortion.
    I’ll make this promise to you, Helen. I will pray for God to help both you and I to better understand His Word and to draw closer to Him. I will also pray for our country, that God would change our hearts so that the practice of murdering innocent babies would be abolished. God bless each one of us.

    Report this

    By Helen, July 19, 2006 at 8:14 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Looks like the previous poster is right - god is pro-abortion for unfaithful wives - kind of makes the religious types yelling about abortions, look like they don’t know their own holy book.

    The Test for an Unfaithful Wife
    11 Then the LORD said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 by sleeping with another man, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure- 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah [c] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder offering to draw attention to guilt.

    16 ” ‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the LORD. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the LORD, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has slept with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have defiled yourself by sleeping with a man other than your husband”- 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse of the oath-“may the LORD cause your people to curse and denounce you when he causes your thigh to waste away and your abdomen to swell. [d] 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells and your thigh wastes away. [e] “
        ” ‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”

    23 ” ‘The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall have the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water will enter her and cause bitter suffering. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the LORD and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has defiled herself and been unfaithful to her husband, then when she is made to drink the water that brings a curse, it will go into her and cause bitter suffering; her abdomen will swell and her thigh waste away, [f] and she will become accursed among her people. 28 If, however, the woman has not defiled herself and is free from impurity, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.

    29 ” ‘This, then, is the law of jealousy when a woman goes astray and defiles herself while married to her husband, 30 or when feelings of jealousy come over a man because he suspects his wife. The priest is to have her stand before the LORD and is to apply this entire law to her. 31 The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will bear the consequences of her sin.’ “

    Footnotes:

      1. Numbers 5:2 Traditionally leprosy ; the Hebrew word was used for various diseases affecting the skin-not necessarily leprosy.
      2. Numbers 5:6 Or woman commits any wrong common to mankind
      3. Numbers 5:15 That is, probably about 2 quarts (about 2 liters)
      4. Numbers 5:21 Or causes you to have a miscarrying womb and barrenness
      5. Numbers 5:22 Or body and cause you to be barren and have a miscarrying womb
      6. Numbers 5:27 Or suffering; she will have barrenness and a miscarrying womb

    Report this

    By Hondo, July 19, 2006 at 6:25 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Liz asks how Planned Parenthood can be considered racist since they employ black women at their clinics. What a naive question. Planned Parenthood is racist for the same reason that slave owners were racist, even though they had “house slaves” that they treated better than the field slaves. Planned Parenthood is racist for the same reason that the Nazis were racist, even though the Nazis were assisted in their murderous activities by self-loathing Jews. The fact that Planned Parenthood employs blacks who are willing to look the other way while genocide against black babies is happening, does not make Planned Parenthood any less racist.
    To Paul Kibble—It’s always interesting to see how uneducated liberals will respond when their fantasy world is upset by something as troubling as facts! You, sir, live in a liberal fantasy world where facts don’t exist, so I’ll provide you with some:
    Fact #1—You make the same claim about Old Testament laws that most people unfamiliar with the Bible make. You confuse civil, ceremonial, and moral law as if they were all the same thing. The laws that don’t apply to today are the civil and the ceremonial laws. The moral laws apply for all time. That’s where we get “Thou Shalt Not Kill.” God gives us free will, so you are free to follow that command, or not, but there can be no debate about whether or not abortion is against God’s law. It is.
    Fact #2—You try to draw a moral equivalency between murdering innocent, unborn babies and the war we are currently waging against Islamofacists. Let me put this as simply as possible so that even your small, liberal brain will have a chance at grasping the concept. Unborn babies never declared jihad against America. They are innocent and should be protected. The Islamofacists have declared war against America and have pledged to destroy us. They must be killed for our own self defense. Got it?
    Fact #3—You say that Margaret Sanger was limited by the cultural perspective of her time. Does her “limited cultural perspective” excuse the following quotes?—
    “Ignorance breeds poverty, and poverty breeds ignorance. There is only one cure for both, and that is to stop breeding those things.”
    “We do not want the word to get out that we want to exterminate the Negro population.”
    Call me a crazy conservative, but those quotes add up to racism and genocide for me.
    Fact #4—You, sir, are a racist. How else to explain your comments about “breeding-like-bunnies blacks” (your words)? Good grief! That kind of racial bigotry always catches me by surprise, but I don’t suppose it should. Liberals are bound and determined to murder as many black babies as they possibly can. This will stop, though, as black support for the Death Party is slowly but surely eroding.

    Report this

    By Aaitje, July 19, 2006 at 2:19 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Marina:

    “I do not decide anything, it is Jesus whom I measure things by.”

    Oh right! How very sanctimonious! In one of your posts you’ve advised me to “forget the ten commandments”, because I would be better off.
    Uh-huh.
    You’ve single-handedly decided that Jesus and the ten commandments aren’t an integral part of Jesus’ message, but again, that’s what *you’ve* decided. That’s not what Jesus advocated.
    In fact, Jesus reiterated, and reaffirmed the ten commandments with only a single change: that the Sabbath day not be kept holy one day a week, but *seven* days a week in loving, and serving his father.
    He also condemned divorce instituted by Moses, but you knew that right?

    Marina:

    “Excuse me, but free will does not mean turning one’s head and saying ‘oh go ahead, do what you want to do, even if it harms something or someone…you have free will…”

    No, it doesn’t and for the record, I’ve never said such a thing. My reason for putting this issue forward each and every time, was to get you to look *beyond* your own bubble, and to understand AND respect, that other human beings have free will just like you.
    Free will is a privilege, and with privilege comes responsibility. One human isn’t higher ranked than another in the eyes of God; each choice carries it’s own *reward*, good or bad, and you are held *personally* responsible for them, and what I’ve *tried* to explain to you was, if God himself can’t encroach on the choices we make in our lives, who are you to think you have that authority?
    Advice, dear Marina, is a thing to be offered, not forced. Good or bad, your choices aren’t necessarily mine nor will I be rewarded or condemned for them since they’re yours, therefore your advice is my choice to follow, or not, and for that choice exerting my free will, I and I alone will reap the reward or punishment.

    Marina:

    “Oh? and when Jesus called the Pharisees “Vipers” and “children of satan”, do you call that “loving and gentle?” Christ was NOT a people-pleaser and did not practice airy-fairy pleasantries when He corrected others. And I assess that murder is unjust to the one being murdered.”

    Marina message #14158:

    “Forget the Ten Commandments, you will do yourself and others much good. Remember only ONE commandment, the commandment of LOVE. Jesus told us ‘do unto others as you would have them do unto you.’”

    Hey, *you’re* the one who advised me to adhere to only one commandment: the commandment of LOVE. By this measure, I guess Jesus was spreading “love” by calling the Pharisees “vipers” and “children of satan”, right?

    Marina:

    “Mary Magdalene was not murdering babies, she hurt no one but herself.”

    I wasn’t talking about Magdalena in that example. And the nameless woman that was spared stoning was accused of adultry, not “murdering babies”. I was referring to the woman in the pit where her husband and other male family members came to stone her to death—-and as a side note, this is proof Jesus is against the death penalty as well.

    “However, those who commit abortion are also forgiven by God. So are child abusers and every other human on earth. That does not mean that they do not have to suffer the consequnces of their actions or are immune from being told they are commiting a grave error. It also does not mean that people cannot try and save (non-violently) the life the child.”

    And NO pro-choice advocate is against trying to save the life of the child. That’s why we fight for universal health care (happening in “librul” California under SB 840 by the way!), and fight for welfare laws to help destitute mothers cope with caring for their children so they won’t go hungry or cold, and advocate caution when deciding to go to war.
    But therein lies again, the choice.
    Your side chooses to believe an embryo is a child—which is a slippery slope since they call themselves prolifers too, and in case they didn’t get the memo, sperm is alive, and monthly ovulating eggs are too and these die by the trillions per day all over the world!
    Your side is against a woman’s right to choose abortion, but praise artificial insemenation turning a blind eye to the fact that thousands of petriedish embryos (you believe embryos are babies right?) are frozen, then thrown out like yesterday’s trash when the woman decides to have no more.
    Shouldn’t you be against this too? Where are the picketers in front of fertility clinics, yelling and shouting “murderers” to those women, and their husbands at fertility clinics?
    Save the petriedish babies!
    I’m sorry, but you haven’t convinced me that you’re against “killing babies”, simply because I know the difference between an embryo and a child.
    You’re just supporting my contention, that anti-abortionist are hypocrites, and anti-women advocates.

    Marina:

    “You forgot to mention the Israelis who commit genocide in the name of their god who tells them that they can do so because he supposedly gave them land…...”

    No, I didn’t forget to mention the Israeli since they’re not a *religion*, and my argument was the fact that people hide behind their RELIGION to judge, and oppress other people they don’t agree with. Israelis are the people of Israel. Jews, Christians even Muslim live in Israel in harmony. Israeli defend their right in the ME because of rabid religious fanatics on the Muslim side who vehemently believe they don’t have this right, and Israeli don’t *start* the wars. They don’t practice “genocide”. They *defend* themselves when attacked (though we can argue the tenacity with which they respond). Gallup took a poll last year before the death of Arafat, and the induced coma of Sharon that the Israeli people at a whopping 78% WANT peace with their Muslim neighbors, and Lebanon tries, Jordan tries, Syria tries, but fundamentalists within their countries infiltrating their governments, won’t hear of it.
    This is what you get when you don’t have separation of church and state.

    Marina:

    “How dare anyone make the choice of whether or not a child will be glad they were not allowed to live?”

    I have NO idea what you’re asking here.

    Marina:

    “Regarding your mother, Catholicism teaches that abortion is an abomination because the Church knows that every life is sacred and every life has a right to exist.”

    Regarding my mother, the point I was trying to make was to show the hypocrisy of her beliefs when she believed aborting her children before we were born—and whom she clearly never wanted—only to abort us after we were born.
    Regarding Catholicism? *This* coming from a church that blessed Hitler’s wars against the innocent Jewish people; condones pedophilia by refusing to slap down priests sexually abusing *children* by the thousands and instead, hid them away, and moved them around to do more harm to more innocents in another parrish; a church that blessed the Spanish Inquisition that tortured and murdered tens of thousands of innocent already-born, men, women AND *children*.
    I guess, according to you, it’s not up to the woman, but rather to the church to decide whose life is “sacred” and who has a right to live, huh?

    Marina:

    “Jesus is contrary to death and violence.”

    The majority of anti-choicers who claim to follow “his standard”, aren’t. They’ve proven that already.

    Marina:

    “Abortion is a violent act and it is contrary to the harmony of life.”

    I don’t know because I’ve never had one. My anti-abortion republican friend who admitted having had four herself, says it’s wrong (she’s also against contraceptives resulting in her daughter becoming a mother at 15!), but she doesn’t know for sure if it’s “violent”, but what I’ve read, science doesn’t seem to support what you say.
    That said, proven is, *war* is a violent act murdering thousands of already-born men, women, AND children, and maming hundreds of thousands more; *rape* is a violent act, destroying the girl/woman physically and mentally for decades to come (I can attest to this); *incest* is, in so many ways, and the *death penalty* is too since we can be rest assured too many innocent people were executed because they were wrongfully convicted—-taking into account how many were taken off death row because of DNA testing—-and the reason for it’s reenactment (to deter heinous crimes) has failed since crime is UP, and the death penalty hasn’t deterred sh*t.
    Don’t you think it’d be more useful to focus on eradicating the above-mentioned ills in the world FIRST, before eradicating a woman’s right to choose?

    Marina:

    “A woman’s right to choose is before she has sex, after that she must live with her choice and the consequences of it. Sorry if that’s not ‘nice’, it’s the truth.”


    Ahhh! Finally, you’ve come clean!
    It’s all about your prejudice against your “assessment” what’s unethical behavior of women not sharing your saintly views on how women “should be”.
    That’s what they call “prejudice”.
    I’m sorry that not every wonman is as perfect as you believe yourself to be.
    If *anyone* should understand and empathize with a woman who makes the choice to terminate her pregnancy, it should be YOU after what you’ve suffered.
    In a perfect world, there’d be no rape, no incest, no drug-induced date-rape, no abuse of power by clergy, or teachers, or pedophiles, and in that world, there might be a strong argument to eradicate abortion.
    But guess what?
    We don’t live in a perfect world.
    I’m pro-choice, because I understand this undeniable truth.
    You’re anti-abortion, because you—sadly—don’t.

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    By bluesky, July 19, 2006 at 2:13 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Fetuses are not babies and can not survive outside the womb during the period in which abortions are permitted, that’s why they are called “fetuses” and not babies.

    Have you ever been in an abortion clinic?!  Most of the people in there are white college kids and other assorted women anywhere from well off down to dirt poor.  And they all look desperate.  Leave them alone!  They are trying to survive in a world gone mad with leaders with no heart for helping them after that baby is born.  And thank you very much in advance for all you men to get the heck out of this issue, it isn’t yours to fight against - or for!  It isn’t your body that has to carry the fetus and it’s none of your business!

    And how about rape, ever heard of it?  Or incest?  No provisions for these types of pregnancies and how they can ruin a life that is already here?!

    How about I cherish my own life and you get the heck out of my business - and God’s business!  You don’t belong in between us in such a personal decision with our God - get out and mind your own business and sins!

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    By Marina, July 18, 2006 at 6:10 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Aaitje writes: “That would depend on what *you* decide is injustice, of course.”

    I do not decide anything, it is Jesus whom I measure things by.

    “God gave us an intelligent brain. He also gave us the gift of Free Will”

    Excuse me, but free will does not mean turning one’s head and saying ‘oh go ahead, do what you want to do, even if it harms something or someone…you have free will…”

    “Humans can make *an assessment* of their view of others, and offer advice in a loving, gentle way. Just like christ did.”

    Oh? and when Jesus called the Pharisees “Vipers” and “children of satan”, do you call that “loving and gentle?” Christ was NOT a people-pleaser and did not practice airy-fairy pleasantries when He corrected others. And I assess that murder is unjust to the one being murdered.

    “jesus himself, the christ they proclaim to serve, stopped a, for that time perfectly legal stoning of an adultress woman….”

    Mary Magdalene was not murdering babies, she hurt no one but herself. However, those who commit abortion are also forgiven by God. So are child abusers and every other human on earth. That does not mean that they do not have to suffer the consequnces of their actions or are immune from being told they are commiting a grave error. It also does not mean that people cannot try and save (non-violently) the life the child.

    “Anti-choice people (see the “Jesus is Standard” pic with this news piece) are the ones wielding religion to hide behind while they cut down those they disagree with.
    Much like the Taliban, and al-Qaeda, Hezbollah, and Hamas—-the Spanish Inquisition.”

    You forgot to mention the Israelis who commit genocide in the name of their god who tells them that they can do so because he supposedly gave them land…...oh, but I am not allowed to point that out because I have to be ‘nice and gentle and kind’ and I am not supposed to judge them.

    “In this case, perhaps it would’ve been better not to be born.”

    I was sexually abused by both parents as a child and I am very happy that I was not aborted because what I suffered made me strong and who I am today, and I like who I am. How dare anyone make the choice of whether or not a child will be glad they were not allowed to live?

    Regarding your mother, Catholicism teaches that abortion is an abomination because the Church knows that every life is sacred and every life has a right to exist. Jesus is contrary to death and violence. Abortion is a violent act and it is contrary to the harmony of life.

    A woman’s right to choose is before she has sex, after that she must live with her choice and the consequences of it. Sorry if that’s not ‘nice’, it’s the truth.

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    By Aaitje, July 18, 2006 at 3:42 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Marina:

    “No one has the right to place judgement on another human being, but God did give humans intelligent discrimination and a voice and body to take action against injustice.”

    Aaitje responds:

    That would depend on what *you* decide is injustice, of course. That’s tantamount to being judgmental. In the extreme (like evangelical nutjobs) it becomes prejudice, and their self-righteous passions flare so high, they’ve even murdered a doctor who dare go against what *they* perceive to be “injustice”.
    Yes. God gave us an intelligent brain. He also gave us the gift of Free Will; a will he himself has said, is what stops him from interfering in our personal lives; our choices because he’s bound by his word.
    I’d take his example on how to treat my fellow human above and beyond that, of self-righteous, prejudiced humans *anyday*.

    Marina:

    “Human beings can judge the *actions* of others and take non-violent action to stop abuse and murder without judging someone else’s soul.

    Aaitje responds:

    Wrong. Humans can make *an assessment* of their view of others, and offer advice in a loving, gentle way. Just like christ did.
    They have *no right*, however, to judge them. Evangelical anti-choice nutcases are self-proclaimed christians, and judge, jury and henchmen all wrapped up in one, yet they forget that jesus himself, the christ they proclaim to serve, stopped a, for that time perfectly legal stoning of an adultress woman saying aloud “he without sin, cast the first stone.” The woman was spared, remember?

    Marina:

    “Forget the Ten Commandments, you will do yourself and others much good.”

    Aaitje responds:

    Just making a point here.
    Anti-choice people (see the “Jesus is Standard” pic with this news piece) are the ones wielding religion to hide behind while they cut down those they disagree with.
    Much like the Taliban, and al-Qaeda, Hezbollah, and Hamas—-the Spanish Inquisition.
    Get my drift here?

    Marina:

    “The fetus with a beating heart may very well wish to experience life. If your own mother decided without your permission to exterminate you then I do not think you would like that done to you, would you?”

    Aaitje responds:

    Her decision. Her responsibility. Like my mother, I’m against abortion, and so I raise my children in a way to hopefully never put them in the position to make that grave choice, but unlike my mother who dumped her 5 children when we outgrew the “baby cuteness” and decided to go find herself with a younger man leaving my father alone with young children from 4 to 13, she, in effect, committed a *very* late term abortion when she left without a word, and never looked back.
    In this case, perhaps it would’ve been better not to be born.
    Perhaps it’s better not to know the pain and ridicule of being abandoned after hearing your own mother say she would kill us one by one if my father didn’t let her go; to be made fun of by other children; pitied by members of our church; to know hunger, and fear, cold, and insecurity, and to lose our right to a happy childhood so early, than to be born.

    My brothers and sisters, as liberals, all understand that my mother, being Roman Catholic, was bound by her religious beliefs not to have abortions.

    We, however, can’t forgive her for aborting us *after* we were born; *after* we knew the warmth and love of a mother.

    I wouldn’t wish that on my worse enemy.

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    By Marina, July 18, 2006 at 9:45 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Aaitje writes “who in the hell gave you the right to pass judgment on a woman who has to make that grave choice? God?”

    No one has the right to place judgement on another human being, but God did give humans intelligent discrimination and a voice and body to take action against injustice. Human beings can judge the *actions* of others and take non-violent action to stop abuse and murder without judging someone else’s soul.

    “deciding to have an abortion isn’t breaking any commandments, but bearing false witness against another, is.”

    Forget the Ten Commandments, you will do yourself and others much good. Remember only ONE commandment, the commandment of LOVE. Jesus told us ‘do unto others as you would have them do unto you.’

    The fetus with a beating heart may very well wish to experience life. If your own mother decided without your permission to exterminate you then I do not think you would like that done to you, would you?

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    By Marina, July 18, 2006 at 7:22 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    JD writes: “Abortion is not murder. An embryo is not a baby. A baby is a baby.”

    According to you.

    JD asks: “And do tell us why the Christian right has no fear of killing innocent children AFTER they are born,....”

    First off, those people in the White House are NOT Christians, they have defiled that term and have used it to carry out evil. Secondly, do not place me with them. As you can see, read message #14047….I have already pointed out the ugly hypocricy of the Judeo-Protestant Fundamentalists who support war and depleted uranium but who say they are “pro-life.”

    “... then we’ll talk.”

    After you read my message 14047 we can talk.

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    By Aaitje, July 17, 2006 at 10:16 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Anti-Choice people get a grip already!
    If you’re against abortion DON’T HAVE ONE ALREADY!
    But who in the hell gave you the right to pass judgment on a woman who has to make that grave choice? God?
    Even God himself decreed he’s bound by his word that he’d not interfere with a person’s choice even when he sees us heading down the wrong path!
    And you dare force your opinions on another when even GOD says he doesn’t have that power??
    Blasphemy.
    You talk about “saving the innocent”, but we’re catching on pretty quick, and we know it’s not about that at all, is it?
    It’s about getting to set yourself on a pedestal so you can thrust down a judgmental finger at those poor “lost souls” you deem beneath you because your own life *sucks* so bad, it’s a helleva lot easier to meddle in other people’s business than take care of your own!
    Oh, and a little FYI here?
    There’s not a woman IN THE WORLD who is “pro-abortion”.
    So drop that lie, and stop “bearing false witness” against your neighbor already, because deciding to have an abortion isn’t breaking any commandments, but bearing false witness against another, is.
    You think about it.

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    By Liz, July 17, 2006 at 8:33 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    to quote you hondo:

    What does this have to do with abortion? Planned Parenthood, the largest abortion provider in the U.S., has 78% of their clinics located in minority neighborhoods. 35% of all abortions kill black babies. The founder of Planned Parenthood, Margaret Sanger, was openly racist, and wrote often of how important abortion would be to limiting the black population. She is on record as saying that blacks were unfit for reproduction and that Planned Parenthood should do everything in their power to exterminate black babies in order to keep blacks from overpopulating the U.S. Her efforts have been successful; the African-American population of the U.S. is the only minority group in the country that is shrinking. That’s genocide, anyway you look at it, and the people responsible will be judged by God. Black support for Democrats is shrinking, and the abortion issue is a major reason why.
    ——————————————————-

    Then why do they employ black women at thier facilities. When I was there I saw at least 8 black women working there and guess what? One of them brought thier baby in to show the others.

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    By paul kibble, July 17, 2006 at 7:44 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Re Comment #14027:

    Like a bladder-challenged tomcat bent on spraying his alpha-maledom far and wide, Hondo has marked out his territory in yet another corner of cyberspace with this latest marvel of micturition. The resulting stains can be removed with a little logic and elbow grease, but the scientific spirit—-okay, maybe it’s just morbid curiosity—-dictates that one analyze their specific chemical composition.

    STAIN # 1: To paraphrase T.S. Eliot: Hondo’s brain swarms with strong opinions; I see no evidence that it thinks. Covering crazed she-male Ann Coulter’s latest hit tune about “godless” liberals and their “sacrament” of abortion, Hondo belts to the rafters: “The Democrat Party, infected as it is with the cancer of liberalism, has become ‘The Death Party’, dedicated to murdering as many babies as they possibly can.” So he begins by making unsubstantiated assertions (hence the deeply touching credo that begins with, “I believe. . .I also believe. . .”) and then magically turns those unsubstantiated assertions into arguments. Hint, Hondo: If I that say I believe the moon is made of limburger, I haven’t made an argument; I’ve simply stated an opinion—-one unsupported by the facts.

    Needless to say, most of these assertions are very, very selectively grounded in the Holy Babble. But surely, the Word of God is an infallible guide to living? Maybe not so much, since what worked for a group of nomads wandering around the Sinai Desert thousands of years ago maybe doesn’t always work so well for us. Thus, Don’t let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle (Leviticus 19:19); Don’t have a variety of crops on the same field. (Leviticus 19:19); Don’t wear clothes made of more than one fabric (Leviticus 19:19); Don’t cut your hair nor shave. (Leviticus 19:27). . .well, the list goes on, including that thing about a man lying with, um,  mankind (all of it, or them?).
    Does Hondo obey, much less “believe,” all these laws? No, except, of course, that bit about fags (Leviticus 20:13).
    But pick-‘n’-choose Hondo lasers in on a passage that he fancies supports his current position—-a passage that “specifically condemns” abortion. Alas, no “specific” citation is offered.  Perhaps he’s thinking of Exodus 21:22, which states: “If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.” Exodus elsewhere urges that a murderer be punished, and Leviticus excitedly catalogues any number of silly offenses that warrant capital punishment, yet here the fetal death does not merit the perp’s execution.

    Psalms 139: 13-15 contains poetic remarks (“Thou didst weave me in my mother’s womb. . .”) about God’s role as Grand Architect of the human body, but does not address what constitutes personhood (consciousness, physical—-vs. social—-independence, etc.) Besides, Jehovah didn’t hesitate to wipe out specimens of his handiwork when they really pissed him off, regardless of the triviality of the infraction.

    STAIN # 2:  When Hondo began (ironically) raving about “maniacal support of death for political purposes,” I of course thought he was referring to the Bush-Cheney crime family’s decimation of Iraq for oil and all those unsightly dead bodies that have resulted as a result of our relentless pursuit of profit, er, Freedom. Or perhaps the Righties’ hypocritical embrace of the death penalty? Or all those post-fetal kids from poor families to whom Hondo seems more than willing deny access to educational opportunities, food stamps or other benefits (them damn welfare chiselers, you know) and thus ensure them (in many cases) an untimely demise?

    Gore Vidal once claimed that the three saddest words in the English language were “Sandra Day O’Connor;” As Hondo demonstrates once again, surely the two saddest—-and scariest—-words in our language are “conservative Christian.”

    Of course, Hondo is a “Christian” in the same way that his master Gorge W. Bush is a “Christian.” In the conservative columnist Tucker Carlson’s notorious profile of Dubya (Talk Magazine, 1999), Crawford’s gift to our polity mocked the late Karla Faye Tucker, a death-row inmate who had made an apparently sincere Decision for Christ and could therefore reasonably be described as Georgie’s co-religionist.

    But despite support from the likes of then Pope Paul and Pat Robertson(!), after Tucker’s traditional appeals were denied Bush refused to grant her clemency. Carlson’s key passage deserves to be savored in full: “Bush whips around and stares at me. ‘No, I didn’t meet with any of them [supporters of Karla Faye Tucker],’ he snaps, as though I’ve just asked the dumbest, most offensive question ever posed. ‘I didn’t meet with Larry King either when he came down for it. I watched his interview with [Tucker], though. He asked her real difficult questions, like ‘What would you say to Governor Bush?’ ‘What was her answer?’ I wonder. “

    ”‘Please,’ Bush whimpers, his lips pursed in mock desperation, ‘don’t kill me.’ “

    ”I must look shocked,” wrote Carlson, since “ridiculing the pleas of a condemned prisoner who has since been executed seems odd and cruel, even for someone as militantly anticrime as Bush—because he immediately stops smirking.”.

    As we now know some seven years later, that smirk was only on hiatus. But really, that impersonation of his dead fellow Christer: fuckin’ hilarious—-or at least it would have been to all those other brain-damaged alkies back there at the frathouse. Although Jay-sus—-another victim of judicial murder who was, you know, all about forgiveness and that liberal shit—-probably wouldn’t laugh quite as hard.

    But with fellow “Christians” like Hondo, at least Bush is in good company.

    STAIN # 3: Predictably, all the slurs against that “racist” Margaret Sanger are here. Sanger was limited by the cultural perspectives of her time, just as Thomas Jefferson, author of the Declaration of Independence and slave owner/fucker, was limited by his. But she, like he,  was still an heroic figure who waged an often lonely war against the pathetic need to mindlessly obey a Higher Authority as represented by the Hondos of the world.
    I refer interested readers to http://www.plannedparenthood.org/pp2/portal/medicalinfo/birthcontrol/bio-margaret-sanger.xml  for a fuller rebuttal of Hondo’s charges. But one example will suffice:
    Charge: “As early as 1914 Margaret Sanger was promoting abortion, not for white middle-class women, but against ‘inferior races’ — black people, poor people, Slavs, Latins, and Hebrews were ‘human weeds.’”
    Response (from the aforementioned website): “This allegation about Margaret Sanger appears in an anonymous flyer, ‘Facts About Planned Parenthood,’ that is circulated by anti-family planning activists. Margaret Sanger, who passionately believed in a woman’s right to control her body, never ‘promoted’ abortion because it was illegal and dangerous throughout her lifetime. She urged women to use contraceptives so that they would not be at risk for the dangers of illegal, back-alley abortion. Sanger never described any ethnic community as an ‘inferior race’ or as ‘human weeds.’”
    “In her lifetime, Sanger won the respect of international figures of all races, including the Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.; Mahatma Gandhi; Shidzue Kato, the foremost family planning advocate in Japan; and Lady Dhanvanthi Rama Rau of India — all of whom were sensitive to issues of race.”

    STAIN # 4: The Right, which for years enacted laws (often based on “Biblical authority”) and engineered policies that kept African-Americans “in their place,” has now become, albeit belatedly, a champion of blacks against Planned Parenthood’s “genocidal” campaign. The level of cynicism behind this newly acquired sense of morality is breathtaking.
    Why did Gore and Kerry receive an overwhelming percentage of the black vote during their respective bids for the Presidency? Why, because they were willing to provide those breeding-like-bunnies blacks “on demand” abortions!
    This is an almost perfect embodiment of the Right’s racism by any other name: the SOLE motive behind black support for the Dems is because they (the blacks) are out-of-control breeders who can’t stop reproducing indiscriminately save through abortion. (Never mind that Hondo would also deny them access to more conventional methods of birth control.) Of course, there were no other carrots to dangle before these potential donkeys, no social policies that, unlike Bush’s, benefited a broad spectrum of the disadvantaged as opposed to what Bush charmingly described as his 1%-of-the-populace “base.”

    Hondo, next time use your litter box.

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    By Hondo, July 17, 2006 at 7:02 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    JD—You are looking at this whole issue backwards! Abortion is racist. It targets black babies for extermination in the name of ethnic cleansing. To say that pro-life people are racist, and to label them “anti-choice”, is liberal gobble-de-gook!

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    By JD, July 17, 2006 at 6:26 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    To Marina re this:
    “but part of being a human being is to be able to have a voice and to take non-violent action to stop others from murdering and abusing innocents which cannot defend themselves. This can be a pet being abused by its owner, or a baby from its self-oriented mother.”

    Abortion is not murder. An embryo is not a baby. A baby is a baby.

    And do tell us why the Christian right has no fear of killing innocent children AFTER they are born, whether slow death through living in toxic waste-filled slums, or directly by our soldiers or our missiles. When you start to advocate against the obscene use of the words “collateral damage” and respect the rights of people to have different beliefs, and when every child is a wanted child, then we’ll talk.

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    By Marina, July 17, 2006 at 2:54 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Lya kahlo’s mentality is this:

    ‘If you don’t like abortion, don’t have one, but don’t say anything or get into the business of those who want to kill their own child.’

    Sorry Lya, but part of being a human being is to be able to have a voice and to take non-violent action to stop others from murdering and abusing innocents which cannot defend themselves. This can be a pet being abused by its owner, or a baby from its self-oriented mother.

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    By Lya kahlo, July 17, 2006 at 10:17 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Rev. thanks to you, I’ve sent money to support Planned Parenthood.  Misogynists like you must be confronted.

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    By Lya kahlo, July 17, 2006 at 10:15 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    LIfe does not begin at conception.  It began billions of years ago and simply continues.  The sperm is alive, the egg is alive - together they continue life.

    A fetus is not a baby. 

    Lastly, if all these people pretending to care about unborn babies don’t like abortion they are free to not have one.  Keep you goofy pseudo-facts to yourself.  No sane person cares what delusions you harbor. 

    Don’t like it?  Don’t have one.  That is the extent of your involvement in the matter.

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    By Marina, July 17, 2006 at 6:23 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    DJ writes..“It is amazing to me how pro-abortionists are so casual about murder”

    I am a PRO-LIFE person but I have to say that it amazes me how many so-called pro-life people are also in favor of murdering tens of thousands of innocent people in Iraq and other countries which the Bush Administration wishes to invade and dominate.

    Many “pro-life” people are a bunch of hypocrites. The same goes with anti-war people who support abortion. There is no difference between killing a fetus in Iraq with our bombs and an American woman killing a fetus with her “choice” in America.

    Note to DJ, I don’t know your stance on the matter so I do not include you at this time. I just used your quote.

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    By JD, July 16, 2006 at 11:18 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    For those who want to be more informed on this issue, see this link:

    “The Last Abortion Clinic”, by PBS’s Frontline, viewable online at
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/clinic/view/

    It demonstrates the true racism of anti-choice foes. They don’t want to provide contraceptives or childcare or even prenatal care. They want to decide for poor women of color. They also want to make judgements about when they should or should not be allowed to have sex. Meanwhile, women of means will always be able to get legal abortions or childcare.

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    By Hondo, July 16, 2006 at 8:36 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    As a Christian conservative, I believe that life begins at conception and that abortion should more accurately be called “mass murder of unborn babies.” I also believe that abortion is a sin, and specifically condemned in the Bible. None of those arguments ever sway a liberal, because liberalism teaches that the most sacred right any woman has is the right to murder her innocent baby. The Democrat Party, infected as it is with the cancer of liberalism, has become “The Death Party”, dedicated to murdering as many babies as they possibly can. With that kind of mindset, I understand that the usual religious and moral arguments are wasted on people dedicated to death.
    What puzzles me is, why don’t liberals abandon their maniacal support of death for political purposes? In the 2000 presidential election, Al “Broken Thermometer” Gore received over 90% of the black vote, and in 2004 John “I’m Just a Gigolo” Kerry received just under 90% of the black vote. In other words, the black vote is vital to the Democrats.
    What does this have to do with abortion? Planned Parenthood, the largest abortion provider in the U.S., has 78% of their clinics located in minority neighborhoods. 35% of all abortions kill black babies. The founder of Planned Parenthood, Margaret Sanger, was openly racist, and wrote often of how important abortion would be to limiting the black population. She is on record as saying that blacks were unfit for reproduction and that Planned Parenthood should do everything in their power to exterminate black babies in order to keep blacks from overpopulating the U.S. Her efforts have been successful; the African-American population of the U.S. is the only minority group in the country that is shrinking. That’s genocide, anyway you look at it, and the people responsible will be judged by God. Black support for Democrats is shrinking, and the abortion issue is a major reason why.

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    By Ruben, July 16, 2006 at 2:22 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    I don’t understand why liberals have to start thumbing through scripture like Sam Harris said in his book The End of Faith, when trying to debate these totally irrational people. The Bible is fiction people! And it belongs in the sci-fi or mythology section of a bookstore, as do all these other books. Anyways these people are nuts. It’s not just about abortion. It’s sexism and mysoginy towards women. Abortion is just the tip of the iceberg for them. After that they’d wanna take away other rights as well. They won’t be satisfied until every woman in America is barefoot and in the kitchen and submissive to her husband. True, some of these people are religious extremists, but alot of this hatred toward women can be found in holy books like the Bible. The Democrats need to wake up they’ve been trying to win elections like this since the days of Clinton. This moving to the center is dangerous especially with an issue like abortion.

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    By Sheryl, July 16, 2006 at 1:03 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    First, the “home” is not the most dangerous place for a woman to be (I’m referring to the statement about domestic violence and the subjugation of women). Factually, the WOMB is the most dangerous place for anyone to dwell in America. One out of every four children—half of which are female—are destroyed in the womb. It is more dangerous to exist in the womb than to fight on the front lines of battle or to swim in shark infested waters.

    Second, to the one who thinks there is no heartbeat or brain activity in the fetus until after some 16-20 weeks…you really need to go back to Biology 101! I fear you are a product of the public school system! The heartbeat is detectable before the woman even misses her first period and suspects she might be pregnant. I remember clearly viewing the steady and consistent blip of my daughter’s heartbeat on the ultrasound screen 2 weeks after conception (the day I would have started my period had I not been pregnant). Brain waves are detectable just a week later.

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    By DJ Johnson, July 16, 2006 at 11:44 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    It is amazing to me how pro-abortionists are so casual about murder. All of us were at one time a “little bundle of cells”, as the left so likes to put it. Everyone born after 1973, when murder was legalized, is known as a survivor. That says a lot about our selfish, me-first society. As for the person who described herself as black, don`t you know that Margaret Sanger, who started Planned Parenthood, was a eugenicist? Her idea was to commit genocide against blacks. How in the world can you go along with the black genocide going on in those murder clinics? Black babies are disproportionately represented, as to population, than any other race. The countries who allow abortion are now at zero population growth. Russia is now considering actually paying women to give birth. The USA has killed off 46 million of our citizens, which is a big reason that illegal immigration is ignored, for the most part. We have killed off the future generations who would pay into social security, so now we have to look the other way while illegal labor workers pay into the system.

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    By D-cubed, July 16, 2006 at 8:46 am Link to this comment
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    The latest disaster in Jackson is among a string of disasters for OSA.  Back in 2001 OSA had one of their national abortion blockades here in Wichita hoping to mirror the success Randall Terry had back in 1992.  Back then Terry could draw thousands but Flipper Benham could only draw a couple hundred.  Now it’s apparent that even in the Deep South Flipper can only get a few dozen.

    Apparently OSA can’t draw enough convicted pedophile rapists into their crowd:
    http://www.maggotpunks.com/2005/2005-03-29.htm

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    By frank Delgado, July 16, 2006 at 7:29 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    My basic understand of the bible is that Jesus ( which was not his real name ) came to save the world because man was unable to save himself . Yet Christ ,whom these people proclaim as their God,  did not single out abortion then nor did he forces people to comply with his law. Being God he could have!  But Jesus did speak explicitly of helping the poor , loving the poor and the disenfranchised yet these are the very people the current Christians in power persecute. Most poor people, I suspect,  don’t abort babies so they could buy their second new Hummer but to survive a little better, very little. So let us hear these follower crying out for the things Christ called for: helping the poor , loving the poor and the disenfranchised. Which will means more social programs, more funding for colleges and schools. Health care for all Americans ( even the most basic) funded by more taxes. 
    Most of the Christian right leaders I have encounted reel at the idea of more taxes;  they become self-righteous if its going to cost them like the Pharisee. My understanding of the bible is these are the only people Christ explicitly condemned to hell.

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    By Liz, July 15, 2006 at 11:46 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    They arent babykillers. There is a logical difference between a fetus and a baby.

    babies have concious thoughts and can make decsions, fetuses can’t they arent developed enough in the stages where MOST women get abortions. Most women get them within the first 9-16 weeks. and at that time there is not any brain development enough for the fetus to even ANYTHING within that time frame! So you arent even hurting it. It will not feel pain.

    If it has seperate thoughts, emotions, feelings, etc then the gestation period would not be 9 months long but more like 2-3 or comparible to that of a goat, cat, dog, or deer.

    now also compare that to a plan b pill which NEEDS to be taken within 72 hours after sex. Now you anret in fact aborting a fetus becuase all you are doing is preventing an egg from fertilization. You just lost another egg as a female does during that time of month. Now would you prevent women from having that time of month so they don’t loose eggs that could POSSIBLY fertilize develop into a fetus!!!!

    and…. the “fetus” doesnt have any feelings when your using the plan b pill so why are you “killing a baby” ......... babies have feelings fetuses don’t ......

    and I belive it’s part of the woman’s body as long as it’s attached to her. if someone had a stinky rotting leg that had no feelings and was causing them problems would you stop them from getting it amputated???If not they would get infections and die! same with women. if they need an abortion becuase the fetus developing inside them were to kill them than its the same thing. I know I wouldnt never want to die carring a child which is supposed to be a positive experince and one of the most joyus events in human’s lifetime turn bad and causae the woman so much pain and suffering I would quit it. Rather than go on and not be able to have sex again or have another child or worse die.

    now imagine if your daughter got raped, shes the ripe age of 16, her life ahead of her, she gets date raped and is forced to eather carry the child of a criminal for the 9 months and the burden and emotional trauma the rest of her life, and not be able to afford the rent, and food and let alone college! and imagine if you were low income people. who couldnt afford to take care of a newborn, and your 4 kids!!! and not only fiancial and emotional problems, what if the kid went unloved and everyone at the kids school knew that the kid was brought into this world by a rape. and if everyone made fun of this child and the criminal who raped her is running free. then what would you do as a confused heart broken mother? would you commit suicide and be selfish and leave the child to be unloved even more? or would you take a stand and get this rapist in jail for life and have the worst torture method avablible.

    If you dont want this life and the life of your children to be the same then you should understand what I am saying!

    Those who have been raped should understand.

    Not aborting a rapists fetus is doing the rapist a BIG favor and allowing his bad seeds to go on….

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    By JD, July 15, 2006 at 8:38 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Another bunch of nuts will be coming to Jackson the week following Operation Rescue. Please let other prochoicers know. Thanks.


    from their website:
    “Formidable defender of the unborn Oh Saratoga! is headed to Mississippi for the summer tsunami against that state’s final abortuary.

    DETAILS
    LOCATION: Jackson Mississippi
    DATE: July 30 – August 4, 2006
    LODGING: The High Place Christian Campground, Florence MS.  http://www.thehighplace.net    .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
    Ask for Oh Saratoga group rate. Advise the campground for shuttle to/from airport/bus terminal.
    LOCAL INFO     .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)    Phone:315-790-3551”

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    By saul2006, July 15, 2006 at 3:00 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    A person says that Life brgins at birth and there is no dispute.
    I say he is full of shit, there is no brain wave , there is no heart beat. Only one brainwashed by religion can make such a foolish statement as fact when it is not.

    Who are we to believe the demagogues of religion and politics who use and abuse God or God?

    Don’t take my word for it, read Numbers 5: 12-29 you will find that a man who suspects his wife of adultery should take her to a priest who will administer a potion and question her. If she tells the truth she shall conceive, if she lies she will abort. So at least in this instance God is in favor of abortion unlike the Catholic Church, Southern Baptists etal. who know better then God. God not only sanctioned abortion but commanded it. But this same God said in Deuteronomy 24:16 that a son shall not die for the sins of the father and yet he caused the death of the sons of Pharaoh and David for just that reason.
    The only way to stop this nonsense is by shoving the Bible up their ass, for help in this matter visit http://www.religionquestioned.com which has an offer to shut down based on the false info given by Christians about the Messiah

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    By paul kibble, July 15, 2006 at 1:33 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Ms. Keasel:

    Your comments are logical, humane, and, above all, sane. They are also beside the point.

    Any faint hope you might have for “dialogue” or “open debate” or “the free exchange of ideas” is sadly misplaced in this instance because you are dealing with True Believers, fanatics who are constitutionally incapable of original thought or fresh observation. For these people, the brain is a vestigial organ, a nuisance that takes up extra space in the skull that could be better occupied by the Holy Spirit.

    I was raised by Christian fundamentalists and thus have first-hand knowledge of their bigotry and obscurantism. Yes, the earth really was created in six days, women should graciously submit to the will of their husbands, that flyspeck in the womb really was a human being, etc., ad stupidem. I am entirely grateful for this experience inasmuch as it essentially immunized me against any future infections by that Man from Galilee’s virus.

    The Grand Inquisitor was right: far too many people are willing to give up their heads (and self-respect, aka “pride”) in exchange for Blessed Assurance, whether political or religious. (For Christian—-or Islamic—-fundamentalists, the two categories are the same.)

    Gore Vidal long ago pointed out that America’s bizarre love affair with religion has produced social policies and political movements that have made us the laughing stock of the rest of the civilized world—-otherwise known as them Commie feminazi Eurofaggots, as the Rev. Spritzer and TH would doubtless have it.

    (Surely “TH” is a typo for “THC”—-only someone stoned to within a inch of his/her life could produce a string of nonsequiturs that make Spicolli sound like Einstein.)

    By the way, Spritzer’s and THC’s foaming-at-all-orifices rhetoric reveals the very unChristian lust for violence that lurks just below the very thin skin of these steely-eyed soldiers of Our Savior. But what can you expect from the devotees of a religion once described by William Empson as “a hideous system of torture worship”?

    P.S.: Thanks to stinkeye for the lovely Hill/Hell-on-Wheels quote: “Obedience was the only option.” Amen, Brother Paul! Although I’m normally opposed to capital punishment, I have to admit my heart did a little fandango of joy the day my namesake moved from this earthly vale into the bosom of Our Lord Jay-sus Christ. Rest in pieces, O Holy Martyr.

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    By BAM, July 15, 2006 at 10:41 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    May all anti-abortionists’ daughters die as a result of back street abortions.

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    By Marina, July 15, 2006 at 8:15 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    “reproductive rights” begin before intercourse. A woman’s right to choose stops after she chooses to have sex.

    Just because a woman’s body sustains the life of the child (or fetus) does not give her the right to kill it. and before someone mentioned rape or incest, my comment is referring to the vast majority of abortions, which are done for self-convenience.

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    By stinkeye, July 14, 2006 at 1:56 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Curious about this Spitz fellow, I went to his site.  Aye Caramba!  It is the grotto of St. Paul Hill the Insane.  This killer heard as many voices as Son of Sam.  Not only did he hear them but his truck was in league with Satan…

    “....I forced my fears under control as I continued down the road.  After driving about a quarter of a mile, it was time to head back, but the truck did not want to turn around; it had to be forced. I could hear the undercarriage groan as I did a tight turn around in an open parking lot.  As hard as it was to turn around, I knew I could not continue down the road.  Obedience was the only option….”

    As to the grotesqueries shown as aborted babies that Mr. Spitz drools all over, I gotta admit I’m confused.  All I ever hear about is how the wee fetus is torn limb from limb as it’s pulled from the uterus.  Didn’t see that.  The Spitzes preach to the herd that little skulls are crushed and the brains vaccumed in partial birth abortions. I didn’t see any evidence in his bloody porn. These looked like full term or premies to me; still born, perhaps.

    I’m not a doctor, nor do I play one on TV, so I could be all wet with what my not lying eyes showed me.

    So, Spitz and Pro Lifers for The Way We Tell You to Live, pray all you want for my black little soul but if, like your Dear Leader, you want to bring it on, I’ll see you in Mississippi.
    `

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    By TH, July 14, 2006 at 8:41 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    The statement, “Besides, a fetus is not a baby” is a bald-faced lie.  That life begins at conception is not in dispute.  The question that remains is, “do you want to allow perversion of justice?”  If the answer is, “Yes,” then there is no limit to the extent to which a person will evade justice to support his or her “mood.”  Shall we allow 5-year old children to be killed simply because they are dependent upon their parents?  If the answer is “No,” then the words of the 5th Ammendment of our Constitution, “No person shall ... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law” ring true.  Any favor given to the pro-murder/pro-“choice” crowd is an admission of guilt that one favors murder over justice.  Justice is a concept that pro-murderers evade at every turn.

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    By Debra Keasal, July 14, 2006 at 8:14 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Message to Rev Spitz - I trust that you are willing to take in all the unwanted children and to financially support them. I am also assuming that you protest against capital punishment as well. Otherwise you are neither a Christian nor a moral human being. I am horrified by how much you seem to despise your fellow human beings, especially women.

    I believe you should actually read the Bible something you do not seem to have done. You will find that there are over two thousand verses dealing with how we should treat each other including the golden rule, i.e.“So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.” Matthew 7:12 and Luke 6:31.

    Since you seem to have a narrow view of the Bible, I trust that you do not eat shellfish or pork, you do not wear clothes with two types of thread, you have sold your children into servitude and that you kill anyone you find working on the Sabbath. These are also a few “rules” to be found in the Old Testament.

    I wish to remind you that Jesus gave us two commandments which take precedence over all other commandments and laws. Since you obviously do not know what they are, a brief reminder: Love your God with all your heart and soul; love your neighbour as you love yourself. You do not seem to love yourself. Instead of looking for hatred in the Bible, go look for its love.

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    By Sallie, July 14, 2006 at 7:43 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    THE “Rev” Spitz: Now isn’t THAT name ironic. heh heh

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    By mutterhals, July 14, 2006 at 6:48 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    This might sound naive, but why are people more concerned about the killing of fetuses than that of full grown human beings? Where is this outrage when adults are killed? Also, how can one be so hypocritical as to condemn abortion, yet encourage violence against doctors who perform abortions?

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    By BW, July 14, 2006 at 5:33 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Interesting article. What bugs me about these anti-abortion people is that they portray these clinics as “babykilling abortion mills” when in reality most, if not all, of them serve as health clinics primarily. Providing birth control as well as legitimate health services such as pap smears etc. It would be great if someone protested organizations like OSA as fervently as they protest the clinics. I would love to see these violent hate groups close their doors.

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    By Rev. Spitz, July 13, 2006 at 9:02 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    I hope they are successful in shutting down the babykilling abortion mill.

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