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Posted on May 9, 2011
Mr. Fish

By Chris Hedges

News personalities, politicians, self-appointed experts on the Muslim world, and law enforcement and intelligence officials, as well as the Christian right, have successfully demonized Muslims in the United States since the attacks of 2001. It is acceptable to say things openly about Muslims that could never be said about any other ethnic group. And as the economy continues to unravel, as we face the possibility of revenge attacks by Islamic extremists, perhaps on American soil, the plight of Muslims is beginning to mirror that of targeted ethnic minority groups on the eve of the war in the former Yugoslavia, or Jews in the dying days of the Weimar Republic.

The major candidates for the Republican nomination for the presidency, including Rick Santorum, Michele Bachmann, Herman Cain, Newt Gingrich and Mike Huckabee, along with television personalities such as Bill Maher, routinely employ hate talk against Muslims as a way to attract votes or viewers. Right-wing radio and cable news, including Christian radio and television, along with websites such as Jihad Watch and FrontPage, spew toxic filth about Muslims over the airwaves and the Internet. But perhaps most ominously—as pointed out in “Manufacturing the Muslim Menace,” a report by Political Research Associates—a cadre of right-wing institutions that peddle themselves as counterterrorism specialists and experts on the Muslim world has been indoctrinating thousands of police, intelligence and military personnel in nationwide seminars. These seminars, run by organizations such as Security Solutions International, The Centre for Counterintelligence and Security Studies, and International Counter-Terrorism Officers Association, embrace gross and distorted stereotypes and propagate wild conspiracy theories. And much of this indoctrination within the law enforcement community is funded under two grant programs for training—the State Homeland Security Program and Urban Areas Security Initiative—which made $1.67 billion available to states in 2010. The seminars preach that Islam is a terrorist religion, that an Islamic “fifth column” or “stealth jihad” is subverting the United States from within, that mainstream American Muslims have ties to terrorist groups, that Muslims use litigation, free speech and other legal means (something the trainers have nicknamed “Lawfare”) to advance the subversive Muslim agenda and that the goal of Muslims in the United States is to replace the Constitution with Islamic or Shariah law.

“You would not expect a Democratic administration to fund right-wing groups,” Thom Cincotta, a civil liberties attorney and the author of the Political Research Associates report, told me, “and yet we continue to have hard-right, Islamophobic speakers and companies being paid taxpayer dollars to promote racist doctrines that undermine U.S. national security policy concerning Islam and the Muslim world. Policy expert after policy expert point out that framing our counterterrorism efforts as a war against Islam is a recipe for building increased resentment among Muslims, as well as a potent recruiting tool for those who would like to carry out violent attacks against us. This kind of demonizing breaks down communication between law enforcement agents and Muslim communities, which have proven to be strong allies in the rare instances of domestic extremism. Not only does it threaten to erode basic civil liberties, it threatens freedom of expression and freedom of worship.”

The effects of this campaign of racial hatred are being felt throughout the Muslim community. Those with Muslim names are routinely harassed at airports, and many who wear traditional Muslim dress report mounting cases of verbal and sometimes physical abuse. Muslim children endure taunts in schools. Muslims complain of intrusive surveillance, unconstitutional profiling and frequent mistreatment by law enforcement. The practice of Islam, especially in its traditional forms, is now viewed by many as a sign of criminal intent. And with the rise of the surveillance and security state—we now have 854,000 people working in our domestic security apparatus and 800,000 more employed as police and emergency personnel—national law is being turned into an instrument of overt repression against a religious minority.

Those making war on Islam are ignorant of the practices and beliefs of the world’s 1.3 billion Muslims. The Muslim community is not a monolith. It is composed of numerous ethnic, national, cultural and racial groups that often have little in common and in some cases are antagonistic. Of the some 6 million Muslims in the United States, only 5 to 10 percent define themselves as religious. And those groups that express political versions of Islam—the Jamaat al-Islamiyya out of South Asia and the Salafis—are a tiny and marginalized minority.

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There is now an industry of well-funded hatemongers producing seminars, courses and books on Islam. Walid Shoebat, one of the stars of the circuit, gives a presentation titled “The Jihad Mindset and How to Defeat It: Why We Want to Kill You.” Shoebat, who bills himself as a reformed terrorist and who speaks to law enforcement officials around the country, tells his listeners that mainstream Muslim organizations such as the Islamic Society of North America and the Council on American-Islamic Relations are terrorist fronts and that Islamists are by nature violent extremists and pedophiles. Shoebat, like most of the other “reformed” Muslims trotted out to speak at these events, has embraced fundamentalist Christianity. He denounces Islam as the religion of the Antichrist. Shoebat is scheduled to be one of the featured speakers Wednesday at the 2nd Annual South Dakota Homeland Security Conference in Rapid City, sponsored by the South Dakota Department of Public Safety.

The poison of this rhetoric was on display a few days ago when a trustee of City University of New York blocked the playwright Tony Kushner, who is Jewish, from receiving an honorary doctorate because of Kushner’s criticism of Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians. The trustee, Jeffrey S. Wiesenfeld, labeling Kushner “an extremist,” told The New York Times that the Palestinians “who worship death for their children are not human.”


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By Lew Ciefer, May 17, 2011 at 5:46 pm Link to this comment

II.

If you and Hedges want to make the claim that there exist bigotry against Muslims by some elements in the U.S. then say that. But don’t attempt to present us with a picture of America that simply isn’t so. The difference in my opinion, and that of you and Hedges, is that there is evidence to prove that the America you would have us believe does exist doesn’t ... Immigration statistics!

If conditions here were even remotely like those in Weimar Germany where is the exodus of Muslims from the U.S.? There was no rush of Jews flocking into Germany at the fall of the Weimar, Mr. Monk. Neither you nor Hedges can present that evidence because your America is imaginary. There is no group in this country that does not encounter some form of bigotry ... NOT ONE! Bigotry is part of human nature and neither you nor Hedges nor legislation is going to change that. That people maintain prejudices against others is not the same as people acting on those feelings Mr. Monk.

Do you know what endangers Muslims here in the U.S. Mr. Monk? People like Shake Boohoohoo –Mark Hanson—whining about being hassled in the airport. He isn’t even a Muslim from the Middle East. He’s a convert to Islam and has lived much, if not most, of his life in the People’s Republic of Berkeley. He is the epitome of those self-absorbed, self-appointed intellectual saviors-of-mankind of whom Bertrand Russell wrote in his essays “The Superior Virtue of the Oppress” and “Intellectual Rubbish.”

When non-Muslim Americans see that %(&/$%&$ whining like a thin-skinned cry baby while they too have to suffer and PAY FOR all that extra surveillance that Islamic terrorism has caused the government to institute ... it tends to piss them off.

”Few and far between have been those societies that have been able to transcend the tribal us-versus-them stage; those societies that have been able to make this enormous leap have clearly been the big winners of history, for reasons that are quite obvious. If my society is able to get a million people to imagine themselves as an Us, and your society can only get eighteen people to imagine themselves like this, which will win in a conflict between them?” – Lee Harris, “Civilization and it’s Enemies”

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By Lew Ciefer, May 17, 2011 at 5:44 pm Link to this comment

I.

@ Gary Mont, May 17 at 3:05 pm:

What’s utterly pathetic Mr. Monk is that you refuse to admit that the America that exists in your and Hedges’ head has nothing to do with reality. I used different words to help you understand. It’s YOU, Mr. Monk, who has the comprehension problem.

The U.S. is NOT a crumbling parliamentarian republic. The U.S. has not recently lost a war and is NOT under an excruciating treaty to pay war reparations. The U.S. is not being torn apart by a multiplicity of political parties and their jack-booted goons roving the streets of America causing mayhem. The U.S. is not suffering hyperinflation or unemployment anywhere near that which the Weimar suffered post war. The U.S. is NOT a flagging republic of a few tens of millions; it is an Empire with the third largest population in the world. Muslims in the U.S. UNLIKE Jews of the Weimar are afforded special protections by law. And the U.S. has—unlike the Weimar—an overabundance of law enforcement agencies—Federal and State—to prevent the type of racial, ethnic, religious, and political persecution that prevailed in the Weimar and the Balkans. The U.S. has the most powerful and technologically advanced military and paramilitary enforcement agencies in the world Mr. Monk. It can’t happen because U.S. intelligence and law enforcement agencies are surveilling the citizenry 24/7. They not only know when you’ve been bad or good they know when and where you shat!

Americans haven’t a clue what is going on in this nation. You’re living 1984 Mr. Monk! Big Brother has you by the balls!

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By Gary Mont, May 17, 2011 at 3:05 pm Link to this comment

To Lewd Heifer, from Mister Monk.

The only significant sentence in your two part post was this:

I’m going to say what Hedges wrote but in a totally different manner (to help you better understand).

The only problem, and the problem that has been recurring since you first starting posting your “different manner” renditions of this sentence, is that you also present it with a different meaning - this time your newest meaning includes Both the insane jackbooted homosexual thugs in fancy uniforms And the complete duplication of all things Weimar in the USA.

Utterly pathetic. Enough of this.
Others can deal with you from here on.

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By Lew Ciefer, May 17, 2011 at 12:56 pm Link to this comment

II.

Consider for a moment the following:

“Then news came of a clash between storm troopers of one of the fighting leagues, the Bund Oberland, and regular troops at the Army Engineers’ barracks.”

“Roehm, at the head of a detachment of storm troopers from another fighting league, the Reichskriegs?agge, had seized Army headquarters at the War Ministry in the Schoenfeldstrasse but no other strategic centers were occupied, not even the telegraph office, over whose wires news of the coup went out to Berlin and orders came back, from General von Seeckt to the Army in Bavaria, to suppress the putsch.”

Now if political parties could attack and take control of entire army barracks and headquarters imagine what life was like for those disbelieving Jews—as well as others. Did you notice the term “fighting leagues” Mr. Monk?

There was no government redistribution of wealth social aid programs for Jews in the waning days of the Weimar Mr. Monk. They were not—as Muslims are here—protected by hate crime laws, nor were Jews—as Muslims are here—a protected minority of hypocritical, self-absorbed, haters-of-their-own kind, anti-German leftist intellectuals who held the executive and upper level of government like the Left does here, Mr. Monk.

To claim that the lives of Muslims in the U.S. are beginning to mirror those of Jews in the waning days of the Weimar is the pinnacle of intellectual dishonesty and yellow journalism.

Remember Mr. Monk, the Weimar Republic didn’t die until the signing of the Enabling Act.

“It was this Enabling Act alone which formed the legal basis for Hitler’s dictatorship. From March 23, 1933, on, Hitler was the dictator of the Reich, freed of any restraint by Parliament or, for all practical purposes, by the weary old President.”—W.L. Shirer

If I were to see Muslims through the eyes of people like Mr. Hedges and his friend Shake dat booty, formerly known as Mark Hanson, I would see a people too stupid and inept to chew gum and walk at the same time. The worse thing that could ever happen for U.S. Muslims is to remain under the protective wing of the Left. If they want a really good look at what is in store for them as the America-hating Left’s newest and bestest protected minority all they have to do is look at any of the many thousands of ghettos filled with the anti-American Left’s previous #1 bestest protected minority ... blacks.

Not being a political ideologue Mr. Monk I see life without colored glasses. I know human beings and I know human nature; I’ve seen it up close and bloody. Instead of a people too stupid to chew gum and walk, I see a people of many different cultures, ethnicities, and nationalities tied together by an Islamic religious belief system that, while diverse in many regards, share a common foundation.

Unlike Mr. Hedges and his BFF, Shakey Jake, formerly known as Mark, many others throughout the world see another side to Islam in the West—a dark side. They see a dark-sided subversive Islamic movement whose leaders look at people like Mr. Hedges and Shake Alibaba, formerly known as Mark Hanson, similarly to the late Vladimir Ilich’s view of those dying for his cause; “useful idiots.” Hitler, once in power, saw Chamberlain as a useful idiot and not only was he correct in his judgment but look at how things turned out for the world because war-weary Europeans simply refused to believe what was forming before their very eyes. Cowardice carries a helluva price with it, Mr. Monk.

I reiterate that a much better correlation would be Rome. But that’s not convenient to the America-hating Left because then they’d have to admit that it’s the whole nation being played the fool by hubristic ideologues, traitors, and their allies.


“History repeats itself, but only in outline and in the large.” -W. Durant

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By Lew Ciefer, May 17, 2011 at 12:51 pm Link to this comment

I.

@ Gary Mont, May 16 at 4:28 pm:

Wow Mr. Monk, this is really encouraging. To the untrained eye it may seem that you have zero reading comprehension but I see an individual close to the truth. Where the problem lies is obvious. Let’s get to work and get you educated!

To keep things simpler, I will, for this lesson, focus only on the moribund Weimar Republic, okay? I’m going to say what Hedges wrote but in a totally different manner to help you better understand. Words are really cool Mr. Monk. What Mr. Hedges wrote is that life for Muslims in the U.S. is beginning to “look like” (mirror, reflect) the life of Jews in the Weimar Republic toward the end of its existence. It’s not a two-way mirror Mr. Monk. Life here “reflects” what life was like in those days for the Jews and others. This article requires that one have some knowledge of Weimar Germany that exceeds that which one obtains watching the Discovery channel. In other words you would understand if you had actually read a book. 

In order to have an idea of what life is like for U.S. Muslims—according to Hedges—we must first have knowledge of what life was like in Weimar Germany. In short, it sucked! For one they had just lost what was then considered to be the most destructive war in history. They were also suffering hyperinflation and extremely high unemployment. So in Weimar there were millions of disgruntled veterans, most unemployed, of all political stripes, who believed that they had won the war only to have their own military and political leaders betray them and surrender. In other words Mr. Monk they felt that all that they were enduring could have been avoided had they not been betrayed. And it’s important not to lose sight that in that group of betrayers were the evil Jewish bankers and financiers. The Weimar, like much of Europe at the time, was a hotbed of racial, and class strife as well as political; conservatives, socialists, Christian socialist, communists, nationalists, progressives, national liberals, workers unions, German Workers; you name it and Weimar probably had a political party representing it.

In the Weimar these veterans mixed with thugs, murderers, sexual deviants, and all those metro-sexual intellectuals from political science and economics curriculum in German and Austrian universities formed political parties that would hold meetings, many times in beer halls—saloons and bars—and things would, as you can imagine, get heated and emotions would rise. Also, being German, these groups—gangs—of malcontents, sexual deviates, true believers, thugs, murderers, intellectuals, etc. had this thing about dressing up in uniforms —complete with jack-boots— and even had flags representing their particular parties, etc. Very often they would plan attacks at known meeting places of opponents and break up their meetings—violently—or just hit the streets and fight each other and of course any member(s) of targeted groups they happen to dislike. Especially those dirty Jews! Perhaps part of your problem is that when you see the word “gang” you think of some local skinhead group of 10-15 teenage boys with swastika tattoos down the block from where you live. Au contraire my dear Mr. Monk. These were gangs of hundreds and thousands of ARMED, hardened veterans, seasoned murderers, and political activists, spread throughout the nation, who even the defanged and declawed German military leaders feared. Weimar, unlike the U.S., was a nation in complete disarray.

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By ardee, May 16, 2011 at 5:29 pm Link to this comment

OzarkMichael, May 16 at 4:38 am

I must wonder as to what the hell has happened to you? I never shared your political beliefs but read your posts as they were sane and logical. You have made a complete 180 into the dark side of insanity.

I feel for you, really I do. What cause to distort or just tell outright lies about the positions of others when most here can read and think and see clearly that this is exactly what you do?

You have forsaken debate, as well as sanity. You have become nothing more than the Grimy’s, the Martha’s and the Lucifer’s, useless and stupid beyond belief.

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By Gary Mont, May 16, 2011 at 4:45 pm Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt:A mirror reflects everything faithfully but in reverse. Left is right, and right is left so it is an opposite.

Believe me, little nuances like that are simply not a part of Lew’s tool-kit.

He just wanted to make a simple sentence appear to mean something else entirely, so he could redirect the discussion toward how untrue the mis-read sentence was.

For his purposes, “mirror” meant duplicate identically, however, he applied it to everything except the one thing it had been applied to in the sentence - the plight of the muslims in america.

His own post below literally describes the sentence correctly and then, after a huge expenditure of brain power on his part, eerily fails to even try and defend his earlier false “assumptions” of its meaning.

His only reason for posting is to redirect commentary towards subjects of his choosing and prevent discussion about the subject at hand.

Apparently he has a thing for homosexual, jackbooted nazis…

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By Gary Mont, May 16, 2011 at 4:28 pm Link to this comment

So I was right. This “pretend to misread the sentence and create a new meaning to argue” is indeed the only dirty debate tactic you know. And here I thought there might be some talent hidden behind that facade.

So, in an attempt to appear honest, you have posted an accurate explanation of the sentence - see the quote below:

Mr. Hedges is claiming that the plight or predicament or bad/unfortunate situation of Muslims in the U.S. IS “beginning” (starting) to mirror or faithfully reflect or IS a true picture of the plight, predicament or unfortunate situation of Jews in the flagging Weimar Republic or that of the targeted ethnic minorities in Yugoslavia at its demise.

Absolutley.

The plight of the one is mirroring the plight of the other. There is no mention or even suggestion that the nazis in America are crazy, or homosexuals, or wearing jackboots, or that America itself has become identical to the Weimar Republic, or any of the other silly misinterpretations you have been posting till now.

Unable to alter your own honest rendition of the sentence back to any of your previous BS constructs, you wander off - maybe the meds I suppose - onto the previous paragraph in the article!! 

If you reread the first paragraph you’ll see that Mr. Hedges also claims that the plight is, in part, the result of a successful effort of demonization of Muslims by several named entities since 9/11/2001.

Which again says nothing about gangs of jacbooted homosexual nazis running around killing folks, or that America is becoming identical to the Weimar Republic.

This diversion is followed by more esoteric meanderings that apparently bear some meaning to you, but have nothing whatsoever to do with the article in question, as far as I can tell…

As for the opprobrious drawing by Mr. Fish ... you are arguing my argument against me. Study the drawing and ask yourself; what is faithfully reflected from the flagging Republic or the eve of war in Yugoslavia? Only the putrid divisiveness of Streicher’s Der Stürmer. It is demeaning us ... we’re Nazis.

Sad. But I don’t doubt you’ll try again.

You definitely strike me as the type who never gives up trying the same thing over and over again, in the hopes of someday, getting a different result.

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By Night-Gaunt, May 16, 2011 at 1:27 pm Link to this comment

A mirror reflects everything faithfully but in reverse. Left is right, and right is left so it is an opposite.

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By Lew Ciefer, May 16, 2011 at 12:23 pm Link to this comment

@ Gary Mont, May 15 at 3:37 pm

Quelle horreur!

You are using a common ruse called quote mining in order to prove a point that isn’t.

The mined quote: “plight of the Muslims”

Here’s the entire sentence:

“And as the economy continues to unravel, as we face the possibility of revenge attacks by Islamic extremists, perhaps on American soil, the plight of Muslims is beginning to mirror that of targeted ethnic minority groups on the eve of the war in the former Yugoslavia, or Jews in the dying days of the Weimar Republic.”

First, a little dictionary time; notice that 4th word following Muslims? Ya see it? Let’s take a look at what that word means in context.

Mirror - Something that faithfully reflects or gives a true picture of something else.

In other words; something, in Mr. Hedges opinion, is being faithfully reflected or truly pictured from there to here. They’re mirror images of each other. Are you with me?

Okay… so apparently the plight of Muslims in the U.S. is a reflection or mirror image of something else. We have to stop here and consider plight.

Plight - “A situation, especially a bad or unfortunate one.”

The Muslims’ unfortunate situation or plight or predicament—a synonym of plight—in the U.S is a reflection of something else.

That “something else” which the Muslims’ unfortunate situation, plight, or predicament is a true picture of, or faithful reflection of, in the U.S. is the unfortunate situation, or plight, or predicament, of the Jews in the moribund Weimar Republic or the targeted ethnic minorities in Yugoslavia at its demise. (<- that one is beyond the pale!)

Remember that little word “is”? That word leaves no room for doubt.

Mr. Hedges is claiming that the plight or predicament or bad/unfortunate situation of Muslims in the U.S. IS “beginning” (starting) to mirror or faithfully reflect or IS a true picture of the plight, predicament or unfortunate situation of Jews in the flagging Weimar Republic or that of the targeted ethnic minorities in Yugoslavia at its demise.

If you reread the first paragraph you’ll see that Mr. Hedges also claims that the plight is, in part, the result of a successful effort of demonization of Muslims by several named entities since 9/11/2001.

Does anyone truly believe that in this topsy-turvy world of political correctness and diversity madness that: “It is acceptable to say things openly about Muslims that could never be said about any other ethnic group.” Sacrebleu!

My counterargument as to why I believe Mr. Hedges’ cri de coeur is unreasoned and why said scenario is highly improbable is precise.

As for the opprobrious drawing by Mr. Fish ... you are arguing my argument against me. Study the drawing and ask yourself; what is faithfully reflected from the flagging Republic or the eve of war in Yugoslavia? Only the putrid divisiveness of Streicher’s Der Stürmer. It is demeaning us ... we’re Nazis.

The Left has made a pact with the devil and Pascal Bruckner expresses its alliance with Islam perfectly in his book “The Tyranny of Guilt”:

“There is a twofold deception here: one side supports the Islamic veil or polygamy in the name of the struggle against racism and neocolonialism. The other side pretends to be attacking globalization in order to impose its version of religious faith. Two currents of thought form temporary alliances against a common enemy: it is not hard to predict which one will crush the other once its objectives have been achieved.”

A much better correlation for the U.S.—IMO—would be Rome and its Ruling Oligarch’s avarice, their obliteration of their own population and replacing it through unfettered emigration. 

“It’s tough to make predictions, especially about the future. -Yogi Berra

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By truedigger3, May 16, 2011 at 6:41 am Link to this comment

Re: By OzarkMichael, May 16 at 5:14 am

OzarkMichael wrote:
“My point is true just the same. The Leftists basically blame America for Islamic jihad.”
—————————————————————————
OzarkMichael,

I am afraid you misunderstood my post, or saw what you are looking for and not what is actually there. All humans, including me, sometimes, fall in this trap.
Here again what I wrote:
“All what these police deparments has to do is to ask the CIA and MI6 for advice and information about these radical Islamist groups and their structures, mentalities and methods.
The CIA and MI6 SHOULD KNOW. They CREATED, NUTURED and TRAINED these groups during the Cold War to use them against the Soviets and as a barrier against the spread of communism in the Middle East. I am sure they still have their agents implanted in these groups till this very day.
How do you think the CIA knew where OBL did live. How do you think the Drones get their targeting information. Sometimes the Drones target certain cars, in certain roads at specific time!”

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By OzarkMichael, May 16, 2011 at 5:14 am Link to this comment

truedigger said:
OzarkMichael wrote this about the so called leftists advice against terrorism:
“If the USA wanted to end all Terrorist activities tomorrow, world-wide, all they need to do is offer reparation to all the countries they have destroyed in the name of American Economy, without any sort of direction or strings attached. It would likely cost as much as a week’s worth of warfare, all told.”

My response:

Actually, i quoted Gary Mont. That was a direct quote. Cut and paste. If you think Gary gives stupid advice i agree with you. If you think Gary isnt much of a Leftist I agree with you about that, too.

My point is true just the same. The Leftists basically blame America for Islamic jihad.

What do you think, truedigger? Unlike the Weimar stuff, which apparently you never spoke about(I apologize to you if that is the case)... maybe you had quite a lot to say about the causes of Islamic Jihad instead.

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By OzarkMichael, May 16, 2011 at 4:38 am Link to this comment

ardee said: “Firstly, can you name a single person killed by Leftists in this country because of his/her stance on the ‘war on terror’?

The Leftists dont have to make death threats. The Leftists just engage in slander. So you completely have that wrong. The ‘downtrodden Muslim’ makes the death threats, and it is interesting that Leftists dont know about the death threats or excuse them. Those few who speak out learn all about it. Ask Molly Norris, if you can find her!

ardee said: “Secondly, you begin with a premise that all the police wanted to hear was how to kill terrorist and then reject any and all attempts at reasons as to why they become terrorist in the first place.

Poor ardee. He has fallen for the hit poice and cant get up. The informative speaker did not talk about ‘how to kill terrorist’. The informative speaker explains ‘reasons why they become terrorist’ and how to spot it earlier. The very thing you supposedly want to know. Well, the law officers really want to know so they can do a better job. Maybe save some lives. Little things like that.

ardee said: “I must say that I find this post of yours a rather useless one and so very clumsy as to be classified as immature.

At least my posts dont rely on Wikipedia to attain a measure of eloquence.

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By ardee, May 16, 2011 at 2:56 am Link to this comment

OzarkMichael, May 15 at 5:59 pm

Firstly, can you name a single person killed by Leftists in this country because of his/her stance on the ‘war on terror’?

Secondly, you begin with a premise that all the police wanted to hear was how to kill terrorist and then reject any and all attempts at reasons as to why they become terrorist in the first place.

I must say that I find this post of yours a rather useless one and so very clumsy as to be classified as immature.

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By truedigger3, May 16, 2011 at 2:37 am Link to this comment

Re:By OzarkMichael, May 15 at 5:59 pm

OzarkMichael wrote this about the so called leftists advice against terrorism:
“If the USA wanted to end all Terrorist activities tomorrow, world-wide, all they need to do is offer reparation to all the countries they have destroyed in the name of American Economy, without any sort of direction or strings attached. It would likely cost as much as a week’s worth of warfare, all told.”

The police officers and detectives all leave the conference knowing it was a waste of time.”
——————————————————————————
That is a lot of nonsense and bull propagated by the so called terrorism “experts” to drum up business.
All what these police deparments has to do is to ask the CIA and MI6 for advice and information about these radical Islamist groups and their structures, mentalities and methods.
The CIA and MI6 should know. They created, nutured and trained these groups during the Cold War to use them against the Soviets and as a barrier against the spread of communism in the Middle East. I am sure they still have their agents implanted in these groups till this very day.
How do you think the CIA knew where OBL did live. How do you think the Drones get their targeting information. Sometimes the Drones target certain cars, in certain roads at specific time!

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By OzarkMichael, May 15, 2011 at 5:59 pm Link to this comment

State and local law enforcement want to get some kind of handle on how Jihadists think, particularly home-grown jihadists. That is the only level at which they can prevent attacks from happening.

So they invite a Leftist, someone who claims to understand what is going on. They have a seminar and the Leftist says something like this:

“If the USA wanted to end all Terrorist activities tomorrow, world-wide, all they need to do is offer reparation to all the countries they have destroyed in the name of American Economy, without any sort of direction or strings attached. It would likely cost as much as a week’s worth of warfare, all told.”

The police officers and detectives all leave the conference knowing it was a waste of time.

The next year they hire a different expert. This one is a Muslim from CAIR who claims that the terrorist is really struggling with poverty and a history of oppression here in the United States.

“It all comes from the Crusades and from your own Inquisitions. Spain was once called Andalus and it was a golden age of understanding, and that is the model for peace.”

Again, after the conference the cops walk out with no clue about how to catch and prevent Jihad.

Finally on year three, they ask a speaker who explains how Jihad works. This speaker has information that the police really need to understand motive, mission, method, and ideology. This speaker explains the jihadist approach to the Koran. This speaker explains how ordinary Muslims can be influenced towards Jihadist thought. This speaker has some ideas for what to look out for. Phrases, patterns, networking.

One more thing the cicadas ought to know. This speaker has to be brave in order to speak, first, he will have death threats hanging over his head.  Thats right. For saying what he knows is true… he risks his life.

That informative speaker, by Truthdigger definition, is “Islamophobic”. Hit pieces are written by useful idiot Leftists and the Truthdiggers accept the hit pieces as if it were fact. The informative speaker(and there are only a handful of them) risk their reputations and their lives to explain how Jihad comes from the Koran.

You dont like some of the things that the informative speaker says? Tough. The police want to understand what is happening in the Jihadist life and mind, and no one else will tell them. The other speakers had little axes to grind and were of very little help. Thats one reason why the FBI stopped working with CAIR, by the way.

Anyway, at this conference, when the so called Islamophobe speaks, the police gain some idea of what Jihad is. The speaker’s name gets better known, and he gets invited to other conferences.

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By Gary Mont, May 15, 2011 at 3:37 pm Link to this comment

Lew Ceifer:The only thing in the U.S. that can be said to compare to some characteristic of the moribund Weimar Republic is the egregious drawing that accompanies Hedges’ schismatic sciamachy.

You really are quite determined to continue using this same false charge until somebody finally notices the raving lunatic waving his arms and jumping up and down in the fringe - aren’t you.

It is really quite pathetic.

Again, you mis-read a sentence - I’m starting to wonder if you ever got past this sentence actually - and then demand others refute your purposely falsified reconstruction of its meaning.

The first time you tried to make it appear as if the words “plight of the Muslims” meant the dress and mental state of the local American fascist groups.

Called out on that trick, you change tactic only slightly - obviously still stuck on that one sentence.

This time you pretend to read the words “plight of the muslims” to mean that America has become the same as the Weimar Republic, politically, socially and economically, and demand that others refute your new misconstruction.

The “plight of the muslims” becoming like that of the targetted ethic groups in the Weimar Republic does not suggest or claim that America is identical to the Weimar Republic in any way whatsoever. It does not mean that American Nazis are doing what Weimar Nazis were doing or wearing either. Get a grip.

I was a little upset with myself for calling you a piece of shit the first time, but since you have now proven that this bullshit debate tactic is your forte and apparently the only cheating tactic you’ve learned to use somewhat correctly, I feel much better. Thanks.

Why don’t you use that obvious writing talent to actually argue some of the article’s contents, instead of making shit up and then demanding people refute your false construct?

You can get just as much attention by discussing what is actually written in the article as you can by manufacturing phony meanings from the words - why not give it a try.

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By Anarcissie, May 15, 2011 at 2:17 pm Link to this comment

So the question is, is the U.S. government funding people whose profession is hating Muslims?  Haters gotta hate, but we don’t need the government to do it for them.  Not much evidence has been given, however.

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By Night-Gaunt, May 15, 2011 at 1:55 pm Link to this comment

Other groups have too and that includes women, Jews, blacks, Asians et cetera.

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By Anarcissie, May 15, 2011 at 12:53 pm Link to this comment

Other ‘races’ have been persecuted in the U.S., so why not Muslims?

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By Lew Ciefer, May 15, 2011 at 11:44 am Link to this comment

II.

Unlike both the Weimar Republic and Yugoslavia the U.S. has but one ruling political party —The Party. The Party sports a double façade—called Democrat and Republican—and is rigidly controlled by the Ruling Oligarch. The Ruling Oligarch, comprised of super-wealthy individuals, special interests cliques, and transnational corporations with a multiplicity of layered henchmen classes below it, not only tolerates political parties other than The Party but also encourages them. Those political parties other than the Party not only help promote the deception of a representative republic but also are a useful tool manipulated by the Ruling Oligarch.

The U.S., unlike Weimar and Yugoslavia has, for all of its history, been a melting pot, of sorts, of different nationalities, ethnicities, creeds, etc. And throughout this history new immigrants have had to find their own niche. Yes there were discriminations and strife but eventually, with time, each immigrant group finds acceptance and becomes one of the cogs in the less than perfect nation which is the U.S. of A.

In summary:

The imaginary world of U.S. Muslim persecution in Hedges’ piece not only does not exist but the likelihood of it ever existing is highly improbable.

Bertrand Russell, in his essay “The Superior Virtue of the Oppressed” exposes perfectly the dark forces—hubris and hypocrisy—that lay deep within moralists such as Chris Hedges and his friend Sheikh Hamza Yusuf or as he was known to his parents; Mark. Yeah, that’s right, Sheikh Hamza Yusuf is, or was, Mark Hanson from Walla Walla, Washington ... a white guy!

So the U.S. immigration Service was giving a hard time to a white guy from Washington who converted to Islam. 

Jesus… you can’t make this shit up!

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By Lew Ciefer, May 15, 2011 at 11:39 am Link to this comment

I.

The impotent attempt to equate the circumstances and conditions of Muslims in the U.S. with that of the so-called “targeted minority groups” of the Weimar Republic in its waning days and Yugoslavia’s demise is vacuous, divisive and purulent.

The only thing in the U.S. that can be said to compare to some characteristic of the moribund Weimar Republic is the egregious drawing that accompanies Hedges’ schismatic sciamachy. Change the arm bands of the figures to Stars of David and sandniggers to Christ killers and you’ve got a page right out of Streicher’s Der Stürmer. Leftist America-hating propaganda and mental onanism at its potentially deadliest.

I can’t help but wonder should some psychotic see that distorted dipiction of life in the U.S. and be incited to murder an unsuspecting victim—like that which took place in Tenerife, where a British woman shopping in a local supermarket was decapitated by a mentally deranged Bulgarian claiming to be a prophet of god—would those responsible for such opprobrium admit to the blood on their hands? We all know the answer, the pattern is clearly visible in Hedges’ article; they’ll blame the victim.

The Weimar Republic in its waning days was a mixture of autocracy and parliamentarian democracy. It was a small, fractured nation, of a few million (approx. 63m) with a greatly reduced and neutered military, and a devastated economy. It was a nation that had recently suffered defeat in a war that many Germans believed it lost due to betrayal by their own political and military leaders. Economically it was fighting for its life trying to comply with the conditions set upon it by the Treaty of Versailles and desperately trying to avoid even further sanctions for non-compliance. It was a hotbed of turmoil and strife and political intrigue in which no political party held a clear majority and unemployment and hyper-inflation caused severe hardships on all segments of the population. In those days the flagging Republic found itself a political and economic pariah; its only ally, ironically, was Russia.

Yugoslavia. Only Thor and perhaps my neighbor’s physic dog, Killer, a Yorkie, could know what Hedges was thinking when trying to equate the U.S. and Yugoslavia.

Yugoslavia was and always has been habanera chilies washed down with Wild Turkey in a severely ulcerated stomach. The Balkan States are Europe’s land of Canaan. From 1963 it was a volatile hodgepodge of national, ethnic, and religious cultures—with long histories of hatred and bloody conflict—suppressed and held together by Tito’s black communist boots until his death in 1980. Upon Tito’s death Yugoslavia slowly began to disintegrate, once again, into the rabid cloaca of national, ethnic and religious tempestuousness that the region is and has always been. As soon as the tyrant died those old hatreds, which had been held in check by an oppressive totalitarian regime, surfaced, and the slaughterhouse opened for business. Even today there are U.N. forces stationed in the Balkan States trying to maintain some semblance of civility between the factions.

Absolutely no characteristic of the U.S. today—an oligarchal collectivist empire posing as a republic—mirrors, even remotely, any aspect of either the moribund Weimar Republic or Yugoslavia when it disintegrated. The U.S. not only has the most potent, technologically advanced military in history, it is a virtual police state with numerous police and intelligence agencies at all levels of federal and state governments. Government surveillance of the citizenry is unparalleled. Even Stalin’s Russia would be green with envy.

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By Sara, May 15, 2011 at 9:25 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

God bless you, Chris, for never being afraid of speaking the truth.

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By truedigger3, May 15, 2011 at 8:54 am Link to this comment

Re: By OzarkMichael, May 15 at 5:49 am


OzarkMichael,

You are sick who is blinded by hate, prejudice and ignorance.  You remind me of Dr. Goldstein, the Zionist who immigrated from Brooklyn to Israel and gunned down and killed 29 Muslims worshipers as they kneeled down praying in a mosque.
By the way, if you REALLY care about the Christian minorities in the Muslim countries, you and your ilk, shoud stop this crazy hysteria against Muslims. It is small world and what is going on in one place, reverberates and echo in every place, and there are Muslims who are hateful and ignorant just like you, who are reciprocating this hatred and malice by attacking local Christians.
Dr. heal thyself.

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By Anarcissie, May 15, 2011 at 6:24 am Link to this comment

Actually I am rather interested in the assertion that government money is being used to attack a religion.  It seems that that would be rather unconstitutional, a necessary corollary to the prohibition against establishing or supporting a religion.  Not that I think religions, their adherents, and sacred texts are above (or beneath) criticism, but it seems to me the government should either stay out of the business, or attack all of them equally; and the second choice might prove awfully complicated, and superfluous as well considering how much is done in this line by amateurs.

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By OzarkMichael, May 15, 2011 at 5:49 am Link to this comment

Gary Mont is back. He was one of the reasons I started posting on this thread. He says he wants to go back to the original question about downtrodden Muslims. That by itself is a legitimate question.

The problem, Mr Mont, is that you are the one who brought up something else:

The Fanatical Right Wing White Supremacist Christians always wanted a war with the competition for position of One God, so they can now become the front line propagandists and spokesperson experts for this new American Century of global terror.

You threw your shit on Christians and now you want to pretend you didnt do it? You want to ignore the consequences of what you said? Sorry, but I dont roll that way anymore. My reply to your prejudice:

Who do you blame for the wars we are in? It is the religious right, in short… the Christians.

The repeated message at Truthdig: “It isnt our fault, its those fundamentalist fascist Christians.”

Supposedly the Muslim is the downtrodden, the “nigga”, one ‘race’ that the world beats up on.

But wait a moment and think it through. They say that the real “n——” is not the downtrodden, but an even lower class of universally hated people that the downtrodden can beat up and kill without consequence. Just like the downtrodden poor whites would beat up on the black man, which gave the white man a feeling that he wasnt in the bottom, he had his “n——”  to beat up on.

I would like to point out that the downtrodden Muslim is not the “n——”  of the world. No sir. No ma’am.

The downtrodden Muslim can turn around and beat up on… the local Christians, and they do it without consequence.

The downtrodden Muslim has more than a little encouragement to beat up his local “n——” . One source of encouragement is from you Truthdiggers, who blame Christians for everything that Muslims suffer.

In the Muslim parts of the world Christians are persecuted, every week a church is burned and Christians are killed. Christians have risk their lives just to beg for equal rights even in the new wonderful democratic Egypt.

Remember that people from all over the world read Truthdig, read your posts.

Look at the picture that accompanies this article.  What is it trying to make you feel? Who would a Muslim in Egypt be angry at when he sees that picture, and who will he be angry at after he reads what you write? Who can he reach out and harrass in ways great and small every day?  Who is the real “n——” in all this?

Who is YOUR “n——”?

Who do the downtrodden feel free to persecute and kill with your encouragement?

Answer: the Christians.

Who gives the signal to the downtrodden Muslim that their “n——”  deserves what is coming to him?

Answer: Gary Mont. Who now plays innocent. Who now wants to “just ask” about downtrodden Muslims after he kicked the Christians around. Hypocrite! Phony!

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By Inherit The Wind, May 14, 2011 at 8:41 pm Link to this comment

Why on earth would I have wanted the Weimar Republic destroyed?  It was a classic parliamentary democracy. I’m not a Marxist or a Socialist.  Besides, the Socialists always supported the Republic.  Only the National Socialists and Communists wanted it to fail.

Lying? Why would I lie?  I’m actually quite an admirer of what Wiemar was able to achieve against stupendous odds, and the great flowering of not just German but modern European culture there.  The Bauhaus and expressionist art flourished there. “Mack The Knife” was written there, originally in German, long before Bobby Darin made it a hit 30 years later.

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By Gary Mont, May 14, 2011 at 7:50 pm Link to this comment

So, just out of curiosity, does anyone think that your US tax dollar is being used to fund hate campaigns specifically targetting the Muslim community in the US and the many Muslim/Moslem sects around the world, to create fear of a new National Enemy - in order to keep the US citizenry cowering behind the US Fed’s secret Homeland Security Army due to the threat of the Muslim Suicide Bombers hiding in your closet, ready to explode because they hate the freedoms you gave up when you started cowering behind the Fed’s skirt??

Just out of curiosity…

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By Gary Mont, May 14, 2011 at 7:44 pm Link to this comment

So, just out of curiosity, does anyone think that your US tax dollar is being used to fund hate campaigns specifically targetting the Muslim community in the US and the many Muslim/Moslem sects around the world, to create fear of a new National Enemy - in order to keep the US citizenry cowering behind the US Fed’s secret Homeland Security Army due to the threat of the Muslim Suicide Bombers hiding in your closet, ready to explode because they hate the freedoms you gave up when you started cowering behind the Fed’s skirt??

As I said, just curious….

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By truedigger3, May 14, 2011 at 7:02 pm Link to this comment

Re: By OzarkMichael, May 14 at 3:24 pm

OzarkMichael wrote:
“And at any time you will opt out of facing any difficult argument with us and start buzzing like cicadas about “fascism” and “Weimar” again. Thats very true, i have seen that 100 times. Every Leftist here employs that trick. “
————————————————————-
OzarkMichael,

You are hurling untrue and unfair accusations at me.
Although I am left of center, I am not an ideologue or having any agenda, and although I am an atheist, sometimes I defend religion and give it its due when the need do arises, and yes, sometimes I attack religion when it is warranted.
I have been posting in truthdig for several years, and my objective is to learn or imparting some of what I know maybe useful in combating agendas,  bullshitting and propoganda which there are a lot of it here.
Mostly I use history or current events, and almost never use philosophy, religion or political ideology in my discussions.
By the way, this is the first time I enter a discussion about the Weimar Republic.!

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By OzarkMichael, May 14, 2011 at 5:33 pm Link to this comment

Anarcissie said: “I don’t see much in this for any serious leftists to love, although some might concede that the Weimar arrangement was better than the sort of fascistic right-wing dictatorship that probably would have emerged as the result of a civil war.

What you didnt say is that the Weimar arrangement was also better than the left-wing dictatorship that was already emerging and which Weimar was able to overcome. I dont think i have heard any Leftist here ever say that. Which is another reason why most Leftists are hypocritical when they mourn the collapse of the Weimar Republic.

I make an exception for you, Anarcissie. You are a strange and different sort of Leftist who doesnt seem to play the hypocritical games that the rest need to indulge in. That doesnt mean I agree with you, but it is a sharp, honest disagreement between us.

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By Anarcissie, May 14, 2011 at 4:41 pm Link to this comment

I think a more exact definition of terms might save some trouble.  In my experience, and using my vocabulary, the Left does not appreciate Weimar very much; they are usually more in love with Liebknecht and Luxemburg.  Weimar was founded by people called ‘socialists’ (they were more along the lines of what would later be called social democrats) and by such of the large conservative and reactionary establishments (like the military and religious organizations) which were willing to go along with them.  (The alternative would have been civil war.)  The overall arrangement lasted until Hitler came to power, but its leadership became quite conservative under Hindenburg, Brüning, Schleicher and Von Papen; finally, various forms of political chicanery turned the government over to Hitler.  I don’t see much in this for any serious leftists to love, although some might concede that the Weimar arrangement was better than the sort of fascistic right-wing dictatorship that probably would have emerged as the result of a civil war.

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By OzarkMichael, May 14, 2011 at 3:24 pm Link to this comment

trudigger said to me: “Your reasoning that the Weimar Republic failed because of pressure from the left is WRONG.

Thats not what i am saying. First, i am pointing out that the Left, especially the far Left, cries crocodile tears for “Weimar”, which after all got its name for fleeing from the Left. Second, I am pointing out that the Left, especially the far Left, devalued Weimar. The Left and the far Left makes up the target audience of Truthdig.

As to all the other reasons why Weimar collapsed, it just so happens that i agree with some of what you say. But I am not discussing all the various weaknesses of Weimar. If i was doing so i would mention its terrible constitution, its electoral/parliamentary system, its over-powered presidency, and also its emergency powers. There is much more to the fall of that Republic, but we will not get into any of that.

Let us deal with just one thing, and get it straight: The Left is hypocritical about Weimar. It is important for you to face that fact and here is one reason why:

Nothing a conservative says here can reach out to you and attain any height because you wish to keep conservatives on the level of “Fascists”. Thats true isnt it?

And at any time you will opt out of facing any difficult argument with us and start buzzing like cicadas about “fascism” and “Weimar” again. Thats very true, i have seen that 100 times. Every Leftist here employs that trick.

Thats why no conversation here can attain any elevation, any height. It does not become a dialectic of opposing views which should soar and blossum into new understandings for us all.  It cannot become a dialogue, or a ‘getting together’ as gerard pined for.

It is a lopsided foundation here at Truthdig. No discussion that builds upon a lopsided foundation can become truthful and valuable. I am not playing that game anymore, because i finally figured out that until you admit your hypocrisy, you will never allow me to attain any elevation, and frankly you will not get anywhere either.

So we stay at this level, which is like a streetfight, a brawl at the foundation level. If that is where you wish to keep me, I will not pretend to go any higher, and we will fight in the basement where its Lex talionis all the way. It was and is your choice.

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By OzarkMichael, May 14, 2011 at 2:18 pm Link to this comment

ITW argues with I dont know whom when he says: “Every aspect of your argument of Weimar as a failed Leftwing regime can be easily torn apart…”

You are lying.  No aspect of my argument called Weimar “a failed Leftwing regime”. i never said it or implied it.

Bravo for ITW to find an argument that “can be easily torn apart”. Except it isnt my argument.

My argument in every aspect was that Weimar came into existance in spite of the Left, which was busy trying to take over via revolution. Anyone who wanted a Republic had to clear out of Berlin. That is what the name “Weimar” comes from ,and that is what it will always mean. You cannot deal with that fact? Your only recourse is to lie about what i am saying? I will explain it again anyway.

The Republicans had to head for the hills, to little Weimar, for safety not from Nazis but from the Leftists. Yes, Leftists not unlike yourselves, who had control or threatened to control major cities with their revolution.

So the name “Weimar” is an indictment of the Left.  The name “Weimar” means one thing: “we Republicans couldnt form a democratic government in Berlin because the Leftists there would kill us.” Thats what it meant when you referred to Weimar on Truthdig, as i patiently tried to point out years ago. You didnt listen.

Thats what it means now when i am explaining Weimar directly and throwing it right back in your face. You still dont get it.

Only after the Nazis took over, only in hindsight, only when its too late, thats when you Leftists became the champions of Weimar. It is hypocrisy on a historic scale.

And thats what Weimar will always mean even when i am not here to explain it. Whenever a fruit loop Leftist like Hedges or yourself bemoans the fall of Weimar the irony is so thick it would be funny if it wasnt so tragic. 

The only “failed Leftwing regime” in this story is the one that Weimar saved Germany from. Oh, the Leftists in Germany never forgave the German Republic for that.

After fascism was established in Italy, Leftists all over the world criticized their own governments as Fascist. You obviously dont know that.

The Leftists in Germany didnt exactly cherish Weimar’s existance. First they tried to crush it and when that failed, they called the Weimar Republic a fascist state.

So now we have todays Leftists who call todays Republicans “fascist”. Leftists who call our American Republic a “fascist” government. It proves that Leftists today are the political chidren of the Leftists who called Weimar “fascist”.

The hypocrisy kicks in when the modern Leftist, like ITW, pretends to cherish the Weimar Republic. “Oh poor Weimar, oh if only we had been there we would have protected Weimar.”

Bullshit.

You would have tried to strangle Weimar in its cradle just as your forefathers did, and you would have wished for its demise just as your forefathers did, and you would have harrassed it to its grave just as your forefathers did. You would have devalued Weimar by calling it “fascist” and encouraging others to do so, just as your forefathers did.

You do those things to our Republic today, oh but after it falls you can bet that future Leftists will “cherish” the American Republic just like you “cherish” Weimar now.

That is the hypocrisy of Truthdig.

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By Igor Slamoff, May 14, 2011 at 1:16 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Is is a very encouraging sign that Moslems are beginning to take risks to demand tolerance and freedom for others.

Just a-keep on truckin’, Mustafa!

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By truedigger3, May 14, 2011 at 12:36 pm Link to this comment

Re: OzarkMichael, May 14 at 7:38 am

OzarkMichael,

Your reasoning that the Weimar Republic failed because of pressure from the left is WRONG. The W. R. failed because of the depression and wide
spread chronic unemployment and the failure to solve that problem.
The German society at that time was composed from three groups:
1) Old money and families whose wealth was based, mostly but not all, on land ownership, mostly in the east ie Prussia.
The army leadership ie The General Staff, was mostly, from that group.
2) New money whose wealth was based on industry and trade ie corporations.
3) The working and the middle classes with the working class had strong leaning to the left.
The government o the Weimar Republic was composed , largely, from the first group.
Because of widespread chronic unemployment, there were continuous agitation,  demonstrations and disruptions from the working people demanding a solution, but the W. R. was inept and powerless and failed in both solving this economic crisis or bringing peace and tranquility to the land.
That terrified both the Old money and the New money and pushed them into an alliance and a quest to find a charismatic leader “from the people” that will deal was that anger in a new creative way.
That how National Socialism sprang to life.
National Socialism had strong similarities, ONLY economically, with the New Deal of Resovelt.  Both of them heated the bankers, but Rosevelt clipped their wings and regulated them, while Hitler Nationalized banking and replaced it with the people owned The Reich Bank. Both of them employed Kynsian economics of TEMPORARY deficit spending and using the government to create jobs in public financed, mostly infrastructure projects.
Resovelt supported workers’ rights and encouraged labor unions while Hitler turned against labor unions and dissolved them and forbade strikes.

There is a big difference between the “new” fascism and “old” fascism.
The “new” fascism is mostly controlled by bankers while tankers were not included on the “old” fascism.
There is a big difference between the old left during Weimar and the ‘new” left that exists right now in the USA.
The old left had strong leadership and was primary concerned with economic and social issues for the common people, while the new left is composed of scattered groups with different pet cultural issues like gender, sexual orientation, prayer in the schools etc etc issues, while completely ignoring the plight of the middle class and the working people.
That is why, get this, we are having bankers and corporate leaders who are termed “leftists” : George Soros and Warren Buffet any body. That tell you a lot about the so called new “left” or the so called “progressives”. I am laughing!

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By Lew Ciefer, May 14, 2011 at 11:17 am Link to this comment

@ Mr./Ms Inherit The Wind

Erroneous conclusion! You read into the question; a common faux pas of supercilious narcissists. The intention was always to make a comparison. There’s no such thing as a nation, state, or empire that has never suffered acts of violence from malcontents within. One could sense your excitement reading your: “I’ll get this one!” I laughed and thought ... well ... best you don’t know what I thought.

With all due respect, one has to be a clinical mental myopic to think that anyone would claim that there’s never been any domestic terrorist-type violence in the U.S. Especially when it’s someone of my age who attended school when the 3Rs—not putting condoms on cucumbers—was the goal of education. I’m beginning to understand why there is so much anxiety and depression on the Left.

That cited violent acts were based on diverse motives IS PRECISELY THE POINT!

Unlike Islamic terrorism, the acts of domestic violence were not a concerted effort by votaries of and motivated by a common nefarious religious ideology. All were independent acts by single or small groups of individuals with particular grievances ?real or imagined. In the past 20 years those cited acts of violence have cost the nation less than 15 souls per year (average) and millions of dollars; the vast majority of the costs in both souls and dollars being the OKC bombing.

Islamic terrorist activity in the U.S. for that same time period has cost more than 3,200 souls and tens of billions of dollars in damages and an inestimable lost in liberties that will never be recovered by the citizens of this nation without considerable bloodshed wresting them from the Ruling Oligarch.

The world-wide cost of Islamic terrorism in souls, property, and liberties for the past 50 years is staggering and without precedent in modern history. One of the sanctimonious Left’s cherished ruses is to feign concern for the world’s wretched; consider all the schools, infrastructure, medical services and facilities, etc. that have been lost to the world’s poor, due to diverted funds, over that time period. A Lefty can shed barrels of crocodile tears pretending she felt the pain of all those destitute.

A never mentioned, however salient difference, besides scope, between U.S. domestic violence and Islamic terrorism is that the cited native malcontents did not export their violence to other nations albeit we have had miscreants from within our shores who have travelled abroad to join Islamic terror groups throughout the world. Also, unlike domestic malcontents who attack specific targets, Islamists target indiscriminately and are infamous for ensconcing themselves behind civilians ?especially women and children. Such tactics, of course, are rightfully viewed by the civilized as the vilest from of cowardice. Although there are innumerable independent factions scattered throughout the world there is one shared link to all ... they do all in the name of their god and are driven by their pernicious fundamentalist Islamic ideology. The goal, it can be inferred, of the current barbarous Islamic reign of terror upon civilization is the establishment of a fundamentalist Islamic inferno; a stupefyingly more depraved disposition than that of the Christian church during its domination of Europe. An age we call the Dark Ages.

Although the delusional, sophistic, surreptitious, and venal America-hating Left would fatuously have us believe that the two—domestic violence and Islamic terrorism—are not that dissimilar they are simply straining at a gnat and swallowing a decaying camel; notwithstanding, living life in the miasma of communist/socialist ideology, they mistakenly think the camel perfumed.

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By OzarkMichael, May 14, 2011 at 10:34 am Link to this comment

gerard said: “I want democracy, openness, acceptance of differences; they want authoritarian power installed to support punishment for differences, and military force for a false security always in danger of its own violence.

Can we get together?  We should at least try—but before that, we need the space, the time, the for-
giveness and the earnest desire to overcome our diff-
iculties.

Virginia 777 applauded that sentiment. I did too. But i see a problem: why should the Left “try to get together” with what gerard describes as “authoritarian power installed to support punishment for differences”, which is basically fascism?

How can the Left ‘get together’ with fascism? That problem is the great riddle of Truthdig. It is the source of all the name calling and hatred within the Left itself towards its own people who support the Democratic Party. So amongst the Left the issue of getting together with fascism is up in the air.

And how could anyone on the Right be so foolish as to fall for that invitation to ‘get together’ on those terms? Foolish because the foundational aspect of the talk here is that “authoritarian power installed to support punishment for differences” which is basically fascism, is what conservatives supposedly represent and desire. That backround hum never goes away. Truthdig feeds it and it is growing louder year by year.

So there is no ‘getting together’. Certainly not with the Right. A conservative could post for a few years here hoping to ‘get together’ with Truthdiggers, but it wont work. I know because I tried. The Leftist will always, when confronted by a fact which challenges their belief system, ‘go to the well’ as we say, and make the fascism accusation. It is so handy and so easy for them. It is a like a club, the handle of which is offered to you by Truthdig, and it fits your hand perfectly.

That is also why you cannot even agree amongst yourselves that there should be a “getting together”. The far Left true-believers will take the club and use it against any dissenters. I have seen that dynamic play out here a hundred times.

And that Virginia, is why there is no Santa Claus of “forgiveness and earnest desire to overcome difficulties.” Its a nice sentiment, but it doesnt really exist. At least not here on Truthdig.

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By Inherit The Wind, May 14, 2011 at 10:15 am Link to this comment

I already showed you why Wiemar struggled.  Weren’t you paying attention?
1) NOBODY really wanted democracy. Not the right, not the hard left.
2) Courts were biased.
3) when it was attacked, nobody defended it.

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By Brian, May 14, 2011 at 7:43 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Why do these pseudo-intellectuals constantly confuse fascism with oligarchy?  Buy a dictionary!

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By OzarkMichael, May 14, 2011 at 7:38 am Link to this comment

To our resident expert on the Weimar Republic, who still hasnt figured out why it was founded in Weimar but presumes to give me two lectures about it just the same… please look at this official postcard from the German government. Look at the postmark that is stamped upon it not once but three times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Offizielle_Postkarte_Weimarer_Nationalkversammlung.jpg

How did the government end up in the town of Weimar? Focus on that detail. Ask yourself, “Why were the Republicans gathering in the little town of Weimar? Why the hell werent they in Berlin?”

Little questions like that, which your teacher and your books didnt have time for, that is how you learn history. You focus on little details like that while everyone around you stays in the cicada buzz. You will learn something if you can think it through. You will learn that your far Leftist hands arent quite so clean as you thought they were. You will learn that your historic counterparts in Germany didnt love Weimar half as much as you pretend to now. You will learn that the German far Left devalued Weimar, accused Weimar of being a ‘fascist state’, which, surprise, surprise… is just what your comrades today do to the USA.

That hypocrisy needs to be exposed. The far Left is buzzing the same stupid song now as they did then. It might lead to the same results. The common man will not rise up to defend the Republic if it is devalued.
It was not wise to devalue a Republic, which is the very thing that many of you do now. You are responsible for the results of what you say and do.

Meanwhile, what the far Right in Germany did to Weimar… everyone knows that. It is very important and we all know that already. The question is: why was Weimar so weak that the far Right could do that? What role did the far Left play in devaluing that Republic so it was easier to destroy? How are you today following in their footsteps?

That is what the Leftists today(and they control the historical narrative) leave out of the history of Germany… lets just say it is an “educated ignorance” that slurs over a few very important details. Those details got buried for some reason.

History is like archaeology sometimes. You find marble statuary if you dig. The clue sticking up out of the ground in this case is the name “Weimar”. It is right under your feet, you are stumbling over it because you use the name all the time. Dig there!

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By Virginia777, May 13, 2011 at 10:11 pm Link to this comment

gerard:

“Can we get together?  We should at least try—but before that, we need the space, the time, the forgiveness and the earnest desire to overcome our difficulties.”

Good point, gerard.

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By Virginia777, May 13, 2011 at 10:08 pm Link to this comment

Lew Ciefer:

“Au contraire! If any of you enfants terribles of the America-hating Left had a viable argument to anything I’ve said you be seeking a tête-à-tête instead of the standard MO of all political ideologues when confronted with reality, your ad hominem—destroy the messenger to conceal the truth—tactics.”

Au contraire, Lew.

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By Virginia777, May 13, 2011 at 10:06 pm Link to this comment

ardee:

Like calling posters idjits?

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By Virginia777, May 13, 2011 at 10:05 pm Link to this comment

ardee:

“I think you are referring to a previous incarnation of OM and not this rather childish poster subject to temper tantrums and much distortion of the positions of those with whom he disagrees.”

Like calling posters idjits?

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By OzarkMichael, May 13, 2011 at 7:53 pm Link to this comment

Listen to my little parable about devaluation:

A woman on vacation in Italy stumbled upon a white rock while enjoying the countryside on a hot Tuscan day. Examining it closely she wondered if it was a fragment of a statue; the head and neck of a man fashioned from marble.

She put in in a cart and exhausted herself taking it to town. “Look at this statue, what is it worth?” she asked passersby as she stopped to catch her breath and wipe the sweat from her brow.

“It is not a statue, just an oddly shaped rock.” one of them said.

Another said, “No one would buy it. Rather, you would have to pay someone money to drag that heavy lump of rock out of town!”

The crowd laughed at the tourist. She was stuck with a heavy rock and didnt have the strength to drag it back out of town.

But one person in the crowd recognized that the rock was in fact the missing head and neck from a famous and valuable statue.

“I will help you, poor foreign lady. I will give you five dollars for that heavy rock.”

The exhausted lady took the five dollars and gave the statue head to the man.

The crowd broke into applause for the gallant man who payed five dollars to get the foreign lady out of her jam.

He promptly took it to an antiquarian who paid him a million dollars for the valuable piece of statuary.

Yes, it is true that the marble statue was worth one million dollars all along, but because no one valued it correctly, it was barely worth 5 dollars when the lady dragged it into the dim little town.


End of parable.

That is devaluation.  A thing has a value in itself, but what people think it is, ah that is what actually creates value. It applies to our American Republic. Many of you have no idea what it is worth. You devalue it, and work to spread that devalued opinion among others here. I hope gerard will comment on that.

On a side note it also applies to me a conservative(foreigner)here on Truthdig. What i have posted here has value. Often my posts(like this one) were creative, informative, and damn well written too. Most of you scorned them, wouldnt give a cent for them.

But one person came along and offered a low payment, (a very low payment) to me for what i have brought here.

That person can congratulate themselves for being generous, moderate, fair minded. And the crowd can praise their gallant kindness.  After all, the person offered a little value towards me when others wouldnt offer a cent, wouldnt read or understand what i wrote even if i payed them to do it. There was a time when i took the five dollars just like the lady did. At least i was getting something.

But here is what the lady with the statue should have done. She should have taken the 5 dollars that was offered and thrown it back in the man’s face, saying, “No, you are not better than the rest. You are sly and you want to look gallant while you rob me. This crowd is only stupid, but you are worse than there are, for you have an inkling of what this is really worth.”

The ‘gallant’ man would enjoy spreading his hands in front of the crowd, saying “She used to be reasonable. She used to take 5 dollars for her lumpy rocks, but now she wont sell. What more can i do? She must be mad!”

So it is with me and my authorship here. The crowd cant help themselves, all this goes right over their heads. The smarter ones had a glimmer of what was going on, but they never offered the hard work in return. They should have done better than offer faint praise and wallow in their prejudices.

So you can keep your 5-dollar-faint-praise. I wont accept it. What i brought to this dim little town is worth much more than that.

You can say that i am mad if you like, but you are lying and you know it.

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By OzarkMichael, May 13, 2011 at 5:55 pm Link to this comment

I hope gerard, that you will answer my last post to you. In the meantime i want to pick up more of what you said:

Excuse me, Mr. Ozark Michael, but your statement here is almost totally inaccurate, and therefore prejudicial:  You say: “Think about the things you say that devalue our republic today, and the collapse or revolution that many of you hope for ...”

It is not the “things you (or I) SAY” that “devalue our republic,” but the things our government officials and rich elites DO that underminE “the republic”—“democratic republic” I might add!

I respond: There is no question that our government can devalue itself. Hopefully we can recover from that.

There is no question that rich people can devalue our government. Hopefully we can recover from that.

But lets talk about devaluing in a broader sense, and let us examine ourselves.

First, whenever someone believes that our democracy isnt a democracy, calling it fascism, they will withhold participation and/or support for its civics. As more people do this, the current form of government becomes weaker.

Now if the government is fascist or communist, I hope everyone would not only withhold support from it, but resist it as well. If you really believe that is where we are, that is what you must do.

But if the government is not fascist, and more people opt out of civics, those people weaken our republic. It is a type of voting, although it doesnt participate in normal voting. It is a vote against the Republic. Or, using a market analogy, it would equivalent to a boycott.

Now i am not talking about disgreement with a government policy. Dissenting opinion is vital.

But if we are talking about our government and enough people devalue it by saying it is fascist, a certain critical mass is reached, at which point force will be needed to overthrow the governement and establish something else. It wont be something anyone here(including me) would like.

I do not think you were right when you said that my statement is prejudicial. I am pointing out an almost mathematical formula. the things that WE do and the things that WE say either build or tear down the Republic.

Think of it this way. No one can ‘devalue’ a person except the person himself. In a sense you are right: Only what the person does or says ‘devalues’ them.

But if enough of the community spreads and believes rumors about the person, we will find that the person is ‘devalued’. When they speak, no one listens. When they sell, no one buys, when they call a meeting, no one comes.

That is the sort of devaluing that i refer to. It is done by common folk, like you and me. We are responsible for what we say and do, and we can devalue our democracy out of existance. If enough common folk devalue our democracy, we cant recover from that.

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By Inherit The Wind, May 13, 2011 at 5:53 pm Link to this comment

since no one has admitted that i was right about “Weimar”- inculding our “Weimar” scholar ITW- I have to assume not only that you didnt know it before, but you still dont know and you never will know that the very name “Weimar Republic” is an indictment of the Left. There is no slant, unbalance or anger in what i said. Its a historical fact.
************

Please support this statement, that Weimar Republic by its name is an indictment of the Left.  You really do need to dig into the history of Weimar, and how it was formed before you can make such silly statements.

FYI, When the Armistice was signed, those two great heroes, Hindenberg and Ludendorff, conned the new, green, and inexperienced leaders who replaced the Kaiser to sign the Armistice, rather than they, as the heads of the military and the ones who lead the whole damn thing.  Afterwords, both of them, especially Ludendorff cowardly and dishonestly used this as evidence that Germany was “stabbed in the back” when she hadn’t REALLY lost the War (She had).

The Kaiser, who could EASILY have prevented the War, was only able to avoid a criminal trial by agreeing to abdicate and leave Germany forever.

And out of this, the politicians were to try to build a republic from a convention at…Weimar.

Weimar didn’t fail. It was murdered.  By 1925, the German government had successfully renegotiated itself out of a large part of reparation, and back into the “family of nations” including membership in the League of Nations.  That doesn’t sound like a failure to me.  Hitler and his fellow racists on the far Right were kept at bay pretty effectively until the great Crash.  Many nations fell into fascism: Italy, Spain, Rumania, other Slavic nations (Not Russia—she had Stalin, who was worse).  Britain toyed with fascism—it cost a king his throne because he was looking to restore the monarchy to real power—the business with Wallis Simpson was just the excuse Baldwin needed to oust the prick.  And in the United States, it rose as well. Huey Long was not much different than a Hitler in his callous manipulations of peoples’ feelings, fears and hatreds.  The KKK’s influence grew as well, and even an atrocity of imprisoning Americans because of who their parents were went from nightmare to reality—ask George Takei, “Mr. Sulu” about being interned.

Every aspect of your argument of Weimar as a failed Leftwing regime can be easily torn apart…with nothing more than facts.  Simply look at who the Chancellors were, or the long-time Foreign Minister—very, very conservative.  The President was a Social Democrat until 1925/26, but the President in a parliamentary system has limited, rarely used power.  He’s essentially an elected king, in a Constitutional Monarchy.

As for being “Mad”—I’m just messin’ with you.

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By ardee, May 13, 2011 at 5:13 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind, May 13 at 4:32 pm Link to this comment

I agree OM is “mad”.  But…that’s one of the reasons I enjoy sparring with him!

I think you are referring to a previous incarnation of OM and not this rather childish poster subject to temper tantrums and much distortion of the positions of those with whom he disagrees. He had, in the past, shown glimpses of such behavior but now seems to have been inspired by the likes of Grimy and Lucifer and become nothing more than a gas bag.

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By OzarkMichael, May 13, 2011 at 5:08 pm Link to this comment

ardee said this:  Ozark says he is mad

That is a lie, period. Literally it is a “bold faced” lie. And typical of a Leftist, he doesnt apologize for lying. And it was so clearly a lie, anyone can read my post, anyone can see that I never said “I am mad”. and that lie was the cornerstone of ardee’s rebuttal. 

But it is such a little thing to lie about, why is it impossible for ardee to take it back and apologize? well, he didnt.

ardee must think he has good reason, a right to lie. Which i think is typical of Leftists. Their cause is so important, you know. Anything for the cause. Read Trotsky.

The take home lesson, dear reader, is that a person who isnt honest about little things is also going to lie about big things too. Such a person cannot be trusted. Unfortunately that means you, ardee.

ardee finished with this: “If you do not like criticisms of your increasingly unbalanced and angry efforts then alter your manner of posting.”

Criticism i can learn from. Lying is another matter. But neither of those methods is going to make me back down. Unless someone sheds some other truth on the matter, I am not budging an inch.

As for the rest, since no one has admitted that i was right about “Weimar”- inculding our “Weimar” scholar ITW- I have to assume not only that you didnt know it before, but you still dont know and you never will know that the very name “Weimar Republic” is an indictment of the Left. There is no slant, unbalance or anger in what i said. Its a historical fact.

Rant all you want ardee, but eventually you will find that people wont trust what you say.

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By Inherit The Wind, May 13, 2011 at 4:32 pm Link to this comment

I agree OM is “mad”.  But…that’s one of the reasons I enjoy sparring with him!  smile

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By Inherit The Wind, May 13, 2011 at 9:13 am Link to this comment

Gee Lew,  you can’t seem to stick to your own topic. I addressed YOUR statement and did it in accordance with YOUR challenge:
“Can you post a list of all the non-Muslim suicide bombers/terrorists who have hijacked aircraft, blown up busses, pizza parlors, dance halls, hotels, buildings decapitated civilians trying to restore infrastructure in war-torn Islamic paradises or who have planted IEDs on New York streets, etc. for the past twenty years? “

So…I listed home-grown terrorists who engaged in terrorist acts over the last 20 years in the USA.  Yeah, I missed the UnaBomber, but not out of sympathy for the prick…I just missed him.

And, no, I don’t accept the Teaparty’s lame excuse that Gabby Gifford’s shooter was a lone “nut” and not HEAVILY influenced to shoot a Democrat by the ultra-right rhetoric of violence, shooting, and terror.

Byrd’s killers follow a long and disgusting tradition of the oldest continuous domestic terrorists in America: The Ku Klux Klan.  That they were arrested and convicted is a sign of hope. But were they terrorists?  ANYONE following the KKK into violence should be considered as such.

That some of these were religious based, some race-based, some politically based doesn’t mean I didn’t answer your challenge.

You tried to change the scope after I posted my answer because you didn’t like that your challenge was met, when you didn’t think it could.

Did I miss some of the terrorist actions in the US? Yup. You rightly pointed out the UnaBomber.  The Fort Hood Shooter obviously falls under the Islamic terrorist rubric, so no apologies for leaving that one out.

Then you tried to say it was only 6 or 7.  So?  What’s that prove?  Your premise was that there were ZERO non-Islamic terrorist attacks in the US and that is clearly false.

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By ardee, May 13, 2011 at 4:46 am Link to this comment

OzarkMichael, May 12 at 6:03 pm Link to this comment


ardee started with this: “Ozark says he is mad”

Actually it was you who began this by posting a very stupid and slanted view of what “Leftist” work for and speak of as well. You did so in a manner that strongly suggested anger thus my noting thereof.

If you do not like criticisms of your increasingly unbalanced and angry efforts then alter your manner of posting.

You are becoming Grimy and Lucifer and that, my angry friend, is a real insult. Perhaps you have changed medications recently, or forgotten to take one?

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By OzarkMichael, May 12, 2011 at 6:49 pm Link to this comment

gerard said: “The right wing is always yammering about “taking our country back.”  I’m all for that!  But when it gets down to specifics—it’s a whole different ball game.  I want democracy, openness, acceptance of differences; they want authoritarian power installed to suopport punishment for differences, and military force for a false security always in danger of its own violence.

Can we get together?  We should at least try—but before that, we need the space, the time, the for-
giveness and the earnest desire to overcome our diff-
iculties.


I respond: Nothing would please me more. But do you really think it starts on your terms? Do you realize how lopsided your terms are? I would rather die than accept your terms.

Forgiveness and earnest desire to overcome difficulties? Yes.

But your terms to get there, namely that you start the talk by saying that conservatives “want authoritarian power installed to support punishment for differences”... oh. Am i supposed to accept those tems? Is that the basis of our conversation? It is a lopsided, unequal foundation. And I think its hypocritical of you to act as if you want dialogue.

Do I accept your terms? No. Not now. Not ever. I would rather die first.

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By OzarkMichael, May 12, 2011 at 6:34 pm Link to this comment

Gary Mont is usually mediocre in the logic department. He contradicts himself from one post to the next. But today is a new low. Gary Mont took a firm stand in a post, and then promptly contradicted himself later in that same post. It is enough to make your head spin.

I refer to his post that starts with the bold acclamation: “Enough is enough.”

He stakes out a firm position, telling us that we conservatives are using a bullshit debate tactic, because we are focusing on the accusation of fascism when the only topic is the plight of the Muslims.
He says we conservatives are focusing on an accusation that hasnt been made. “The statement has nothing whatsoever to do with and makes no reference to groups of Nazi-like political party members”

OK, he might be wrong about that but its a sensible argument.

Ah, but Gary cant let it end there. He will now cut his own sensible argument off at the knees and leave it shredded on the floor in a heap of hypocrisy.

Right after castigating us conservatives for taking up an imaginary topic, he closes his post with this little gem:

“The tactic has a name which escapes me at the moment and it is used quite often by those who wish only to induce some doubt, anger and create disruption - Republicans, Nazis, Fascists, anyone incapable of honest debate.”

I laughed so hard when I read that.

Whatever sensible thing Gary Mont was trying to say, in so many words: ‘Nobody is talking about Nazis or fascists here, we are talking about the plight of Muslims. So you conservatives are just bringing it up for no reason as a bullshit debating tactic’.  Gary Mont then completely disproved his own point by bringing up “Fascists”,!!! and “Nazis”!!! and then he lumps “Republicans” in with them.

That was priceless! Debate tactics really do seem to elude you, Gary Mont.

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By Lew Ciefer, May 12, 2011 at 6:04 pm Link to this comment

II

...The same goes for models. I’ve not heard of a single former Miss USA hijacking a plane or blowing up a pizza parlor but there is one that has come out in the past week claiming she was groped. If all Americans and foreigners are subjected to the same rigorous revisions by government officials how in the hell can that be discrimination?

Are we to believe—given the Sad Sack story of Hedges’ friend Sheik—that a government official on par with a U.S. Senator would have offered to escort a member of one of those “targeted minorities” through government checkpoints in Weimar Germany or Yugoslavia? Have you Lefties lost all sense of perspective that you’d have us believe such balderdash? Why don’t you try to get your U.S. Senator to escort you through airport security Mr. Monk? 

What I simply cannot get my head around is that if things are as bad as Hedges claims then why are Muslims immigrating here in larger numbers than ever? Why don’t we see—as happened in Germany when the Weimar Republic started to collapse—thousands of Muslims trying to flee the Great Satan? It just isn’t happening! People know where their bread is buttered Mr. Monk.

Would you have us believe that the Weimar Republic provided housing, medical services, welfare, public schooling or any of the many benefits that Muslims, as well as many other citizens, in this nation enjoy? (Even their Islamic paradises don’t provide such benefits.) Would you and Mr. Hedges have us believe that special accommodations were made for ceremonial washings and prayer rooms, etc. toward the end of the Weimar Republic and that this is what the U.S. is beginning to mirror?

Do you really believe that all of the aforementioned was provided for any ethnic group once the Soviet system and economy collapsed in the former Yugoslavia and all those hundreds of years of religious, racial and ethnic hatreds were allowed to surface?

In the early years of the past century moralists’ good intentions gave rise to abominations like the Anti-Saloon League, the Mann Act, Anthony Comstock and the Comstock laws; all harbingers of the blacks stains of Prohibition and the Scopes Monkey Trial; would be do-gooders who erroneously believed that morality and social harmony can be legislated into people’s hearts - arrogant, self-righteous jackals leading fools off a cliff into the pit of hell on earth.

Mr. Monk I’m not republican, conservative, democrat or liberal. And I’m damn sure not a “piece of shit” either. But that aside I’d like to thank you for your compliment because at my age compliments are few and far between, and yours sent a warm glow throughout my failing body. I really do thank you! And in case you’re not sure what compliment you’ve paid me—- allow me to take a few minutes more to make it unmistakably clear…

”After all, if you’re all busy responding to this phony piece of shit’s purposely designed misconstruction, you won’t be posting your thoughts on the article and responding to other posts. –Gary Monk

That I, a 69 year old man with failing health and enjoying what little time remains, can clog up the minds of all those little leftist poltroons to the point that they can’t read and comment on other articles and posts is like a badge of honor for me Comrade. And the scoop of ice cream on this pie à la mode Comrade Monk is that I never finished high school! As soon as I turned 17 I joined up! Hot diggity-damn Mr. Monk! Hot diggity-damn! This tells me that what I have suspected along is true ... that the left in Amurika is even dumber than they think the Teaparty members are! At least the Teaparty people can walk and chew gum at the same time comrade Monk.

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By OzarkMichael, May 12, 2011 at 6:03 pm Link to this comment

ardee started with this: “Ozark says he is mad

I said no such thing. Right after I posted ardee lied about what i said. Read the post. Why do Leftists think they can outright lie like that?

Then ardee says: “Those interested in actual history, instead of the slanted and partisan version handed out by our “madman” will soon understand that the Weimar Republic was brought down by a variety of factors, by both LEFT and RIGHT, and by the economy as well.”

I was not claiming that the Left alone destroyed Weimar. Only that the Left had tried to overthrow it, which is the reason the Republic took the name “Weimar”.  In a few years, the German far Left began to call Weimar ‘fascist’, which I dont think was a wise thing to do. There is nothing slanted about it.

It is pure hypocrisy for todays far Left wingers to weep for the loss of the Wiemar Republic while they simultaneously despise the American Republic by calling it ‘fascist’ today.


ardee proclaims: “Wiki speaks more eloquently than I”

Wow, that is the bottom of the eloquence barrel right there. Just when you think ardee has gone as low as he can, he finds a way to corkscrew his own reputation even deeper into the mire.

ITW says: “To simply label the Weimar Republic as a fascist state is nothing but, well, bad history”

Yes, looking back, it is completely false, and terrible history. No one contests that now. But what i was talking about was what far Leftists in Germany said at the time of the Weimar Republic, much the same as the way our far Leftists speak of the American Republic right now. And someday after we are faced with real fascism in the future, you might realize that calling the USA a fascist state today is completely false and bad history.  i hope it doesnt play out that way, but history can repeat itself.

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By Lew Ciefer, May 12, 2011 at 5:58 pm Link to this comment

I

@ Gary Mont, May 12 at 1:13 pm:

Is there anything as entertaining as watching one of the enfants terribles with his drawers all knotted up having to face the truth? Nope!

Not only are Muslims not facing a “plight” in the U.S. they are damn sure no where near facing a “plight” that mirrors anything like that which so-called “targeted ethnic minorities” –which were basically Jews and Gypsies—at the end of the Weimar Republic.

Muslims are not a minority. Muslims are the second largest group by association—religious—in the world. Muslims are not even “an ethnic minority.” Please read Chris Hedges’ own words:

”The Muslim community is not a monolith. It is composed of numerous ethnic, national, cultural and racial groups that often have little in common and in some cases are antagonistic.

Opps!

My question is framed to reflect that which Mr. Hedges claims. A supposed “plight” that ”is beginning to mirror that of “targeted ethnic minority groups” on the eve of the war in the former Yugoslavia, or Jews in the dying days of the Weimar Republic. Well Mr. Monk, in the dying days of the Weimar Republic gangs of mostly of disgruntled veterans and thugs—many of them, including one infamous leader, homosexuals—roamed the cities of Germany armed with clubs, pistols and rifles, dressed in military garb, singing patriotic songs, looking for all those “targeted minorities” in order to intimidate, beat, torture and even kill them on occasion. They would also steal and destroy their property. On occasion they would fight the police and state militias. Does the Beer Hal Putsch ring a bell, Mr. Monk? All of the above took place BEFORE the collapse of the Weimar Republic Mr. Monk. It’s the very situation that Mr. Hedges claims the “plight” of the Muslims in the U.S. is beginning to mirror.

Julious Streicher’s rag Der Strümer had been in circulation since 1923, well before the fall of the Weimar Republic. The closest material that I’ve seen in the U.S. to anything Streicher published is the photo associated with this article where Muslims are seen wearing armbands with the Islamic symbol on them and on the wall behind them is scribbled the word SANDNIGGER.  In the drawing there is a child with a rose-colored head scarf – remember the little Jewish girl with the red overcoat in “Shindler’s List” Mr. Monk? I do! Now tell me Mr. Monk, do we have laws in the U.S. that require Muslims wear identifying patches like those worn by Jews in Nazi Germany? Have you heard any talk whatsoever of the institution of race laws like those of the Nazi state in the U.S.? If not, why print such pernicious propaganda that leads to increased strife rather than social harmony?

As for the “plight” of “targeted minorities” on the eve of war in Yugoslavia they were slaughtering each other like animals Mr. Monk! The U.S. intervened on behalf of the Muslims Mr. Monk! Have you so quickly forgotten? Am I to believe that we are now persecuting Muslims? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Do you really believe that with the military, paramilitarized police forces, DHS, TSA, F.B.I., N.S.A., and all the other enforcement agencies that exist in this country –especially given their technological capability– that such lawlessness could exist? Are you that stupid Mr. Monk? 

As one with relatives who were arrested by Nazis and who has no less than four WWII veterans in the family, I find such nefarious inferences to this nation abhorrent and reprehensible!

In the U.S. the Muslim community is protected. The government—much to the chagrin of many millions of American citizens—goes out of its way to assuage Muslim sensitivities. I’ve not heard of a single aircraft ever hijacked by 6 year-old-white girls or 8 month old babies but they are subjected to the same rigorous government revisions…

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By truedigger3, May 12, 2011 at 1:41 pm Link to this comment

Re: By Gary Mont, May 12 at 1:13 pm


Thank you Gary for an excellent post. You hit the nail right on the head.
I think, I am not sure, the name of the tactic you alluded to, is sophistry.

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By Gary Mont, May 12, 2011 at 1:13 pm Link to this comment

Enough is enough.

I can’t remember what the name for this sort of bullshit debate tactic is, but when someone purposely misconstrues a statement and then demands that others disprove his fallacious misunderstanding, it gets more than a little tiring.

The statement that has been willfully misread by Lew Ceifer.

“the plight of Muslims is beginning to mirror that of targeted ethnic minority groups on the eve of the war in the former Yugoslavia, or Jews in the dying days of the Weimar Republic.”

The words “the plight of the Muslims is beginning to mirror…” describes specifically the plight of the Muslims becoming similar to that of the ethnic groups targetted during the final days of the Weimer Republic.

It is the “plight of the Muslims” which is beginning to mirror, not the state of insanity or type of wardrobe of the anti-ethnic groups in America which is beginning to mirror the final days of the Weimar Republic.

The statement has nothing whatsoever to do with and makes no reference to groups of Nazi-like political party members, most of whom are embittered war veterans and thugs –many of them homosexuals– roving the streets of American cities, armed, dressed in military garb, intimidating, beating, and murdering Muslims and stealing and destroying Muslim property

The tactic has a name which escapes me at the moment and it is used quite often by those who wish only to induce some doubt, anger and create disruption - Republcians, Nazis, Fascists, anyone incapable of honest deabate.

After all, if you’re all busy responding to this phony piece of shit’s purposely designed misconstruction, you won’t be posting your thoughts on the article and responding to other posts.

And that, in a nutshell, is his reason for repeatedly perpetrating this attempted deception.

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By Lew Ciefer, May 12, 2011 at 11:29 am Link to this comment

@ Virginia777, May 11 at 10:18 pm:

Au contraire! If any of you enfants terribles of the America-hating Left had a viable argument to anything I’ve said you be seeking a tête-à-tête instead of the standard MO of all political ideologues when confronted with reality, your ad hominem—destroy the messenger to conceal the truth—tactics.

Just so you’ll have a better idea of what type of male you’re dealing with; I, unlike many millions of deluded and emasculated Western males, stand with Bertrand Russell and laugh at the absurd idea that women, somehow, possess a superior virtue and intellect to men.

So if you’re not too busy point me to my errors. (We all know you mean lies, just say it plainly.)

Remember:

“But let your statement be, ‘Yes, yes’ or ‘No, no’; anything beyond these is of evil.” -Jesus

God is Great

“And do not mix up the truth with the falsehood, nor hide the truth while you know (it).” - Koran, Surah II: 42

And don’t forget… The Puranas also declare:

“A righteous war is conducive to the attainment of Heaven. This is the case with men of all varnas (castes), in particular, with a Kshatriya … After considering all this, an intelligent man shall assiduously engage in battles in the cause of Righteousness. By doing so he shall achieve the purpose of his life and rejoice both here and in the hereafter” -Shiva Purana, Uma Samhita 21:33, 38

Tell me Virginia777 have you seen roving bands of disgruntled war veterans and thugs—many of whom are homosexuals—roving the streets of America, armed, dressed in jack-boots and military uniforms, intimidating, beating, torturing and killing Muslims and stealing and destroying Muslim property?

Can you explain how it is that Muslims are immigrating in record numbers TO the land of the Great Satan—abandoning their Islamic Sharia paradises—rather than fleeing the horror depicted in Mr. Hedges’ “attaque à outrance” on truth and reality?

Surely you can address those questions and provide evidence of Mr. Hedges’ claims.

Also, if you’re not in too much of a hurry to get back to your “Gurlz R Us” you might answer another question. Can you provide us with the federal and/or state statue that requires Muslims in the land of the Great Satan wear indentifying arm bands similar to the “Star of David” patches required of Jews under Nazi rule?

Let’s see ya put all that superior virtue and female brain power to work.

“The degree of one’s emotion varies inversely with one’s knowledge of the facts—the less you know the hotter you get.” –Bertrand Russell

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By Lew Ciefer, May 12, 2011 at 11:20 am Link to this comment

@ ITW:

What claims did I make? Please, point them out.

No, I hadn’t forgotten McVeigh or any of the others. I’m the last guy in the world who would attempt to say that there are no wrongs to be righted in the U.S.

You’ve included the attack on the Congresswoman in Arizona which is not an act of terrorism—as traditionally defined—but rather the act of a lone mentally defective young adult who was—to the chagrin of the Media who tried to paint him a Teabagger—a leftie. But you can keep him in if it tickles your fancy. The guard is not a civilian, he’s armed. Again, keep him in if you like.

So for 20 years you’ve presented six cases; seven if we count the mentally ill kid from Arizona. Seven! The worse one being McVeigh; seven cases with two of them questionable and another—James Byrd—that would have been classified as murder before the expansion of the terrorism definition. Actually you’ve missed a couple; the Unabomber—leftie ... best we forget him, huh?—Irv Rubin, and ELF (lefties again). There are others.

Three of the cases are religiously motivated, right? McVeigh, Rudolph, and the abortion clinics. Two are race related, the museum and Mr. Bryd. And the mentally ill guy from Arizona. Have you forgotten something? Didn’t Mr. Hedges write:

”[T]he plight of Muslims is beginning to mirror that of targeted ethnic minority groups on the eve of the war in the former Yugoslavia, or Jews in the dying days of the Weimar Republic.”

Where are all the reports of gangs of veterans and thugs dressed in jack boots and military garb roving the cities all across the land intimidating, beating, torturing, and killing Muslims, and stealing and destroying their property? Where’s America’s Ernst Roehm? Where are all those Ehrhardt brigades? The closest parallel to Julius Streicher and Der Strümer that I’ve seen is that preposterous drawing that accompanies the article. That was Germany at the end of the Weimar Republic. So where are the reports?

The death total of those incidents is slightly more than 200 souls. Compare the 19 incidents involving Islamic jihadists ... more than 3,000 in the U.S. alone!

In the past 20 years there have been at least 19 acts of terror against U.S. citizens by Islamic individuals or groups; all with Jihadist motives. That does not include the Fort Hood Massacre, the soldier who fragged his comrades at the beginning of Bush War, the Riyadh compound bombings, etc. We can go even further back; the Marine barracks, the U.S.S. Cole, the bombing of Salman Rushdie’s publisher’s building, the jet airliners hijacked and blown up in Lebanon, the murder of two U.S. servicemen dressed in civilian clothes. On and on it goes. And that’s just primarily American targets. If we add the rest of the world it is simply incredible. Just enter into your search engine “Islamic terrorist and suicide attacks” and start reading. Trains in Britain and Spain, the Russian school, the truck bombs in Turkey…

The government goes out of its way to assure everyone that America is not at war with Islam ... but one look at all the terrorist activity for the past 50 years leaves one with the impression that Islam sure as hell is at war with the world as well as with itself. So with all that in mind I ask you, Mr. or Ms ITW ... why do you suppose there might exists extra scrutiny of Muslim travelers in airports?

Today TSA patted down an 8 month old in K.C. Who should we thank for the madness?

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By Lew Ciefer, May 12, 2011 at 11:11 am Link to this comment

@truedigger3, May 11 at 2:58 pm
Then you should have much more mellowed. You are so soaked in hate and prejudice.

I am mellow. And possessing a different opinion –based on reality rather than delusion–does not mean one is hateful or prejudiced. You’re confusing me with you and ardee. Go read your posts. You two are pure, unadulterated ad hominem. You make no case. You simply call anyone of a differing opinion or an opinion that challenges your mania a potu stupid, a worm, an idiot… ad infinitum.

You have before you every opportunity to point out the errors of my commentary. I’ve even made it simple for you by listing 12 questions to which you can respond. Did you attempt to respond or did you come here to rag on me?

Let’s make it simpler still ... I’ll ask you a few questions –all pertaining to the article—and you counter if you are indeed able. And please know that I’m neither a democrat nor a republican ... I’d rather be bacteria in a cesspool.

Now…

1. Are there groups of Nazi-like political party members, most of whom are embittered war veterans and thugs –many of them homosexuals– roving the streets of American cities, armed, dressed in military garb, intimidating, beating, and murdering Muslims and stealing and destroying Muslim property? If your answer is yes please present evidence.

2. What federal statue requires that Muslims wear identifying arm bands—as indicated in the accompanying drawing—similar to the Jews’ “Star of David” required by law under Nazi Germany.

3. Is Muslim a race (<- that’s singular)? If yes please explain how a convert from Islam to Christianity, Judaism, or Jainism or vice-versa changes her race. 

I’ll be waiting…

There are more than enough legitimate wrongs to be righted in the U.S. without having to invent incendiary events that do nothing to promote social stability or to grossly exaggerate laughable occurrences that happen daily in the lives of many millions of Americans for effect. I’m not surprised that the author of the piece is supposedly anti-war and a believer.

”The point, however, is that our rulers have no business telling us how to live. They are tiresome enough in their exercise of authority. They are intolerable when they mount the pulpit. We should never doubt that nationalizing the moral life is the first step toward totalitarianism.” -Kenneth Minogue (The Servile Mind: How Democracy Erodes the Moral Life)

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By Inherit The Wind, May 12, 2011 at 11:05 am Link to this comment

The right wing is always yammering about “taking our country back.”  I’m all for that! 
*******************

Let’s give ‘em South Carolina and Utah to start!  And I’m thinkin’ Arizona maybe as well.

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By gerard, May 12, 2011 at 10:21 am Link to this comment

Excuse me, Mr. Ozark Michael, but your statement here is almost totally inaccurate, and therefore prejudicial:  You say: “Think about the things you say that devalue our republic today, and the collapse or revolution that many of you hope for ...”

It is not the “things you (or I) SAY” that “devalue our republic,” but the things our government officials and rich elites DO that underminE “the republic”—“democratic republic” I might add!
One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”

Those words are deeply important. “Indivisible”
means State laws are not to supercede Federal laws.
The military is not allowed to take over civil society. The economic system cannot be permitted to take advantage of the poor.

The nation is at grave risk if a tiny percent of people own vastly more money, power and resources
than the majority of oriinary peope. If governentIf is “collapsing” it is because of just such imbalance.
If “revolution” occurs, it will be caused by the
government officials and agencies which either
permitted or encouraged such inequalities and
injustices. 

If the government officials were intelligent and
humane enough, such problems would be rectified in
the normal course of events, according to the basics
of the Constitution. The vast organization of “sur-
veillance”, threat and fear-mongering would die of
its own overweight. Suppression is counterproductive.

The right wing is always yammering about “taking our country back.”  I’m all for that!  But when it gets down to specifics—it’s a whole different ball game.  I want democracy, openness, acceptance of differences; they want authoritarian power installed to suopport punishment for differences, and military force for a false security always in danger of its own violence.

Can we get together?  We should at least try—but before that, we need the space, the time, the for-
giveness and the earnest desire to overcome our diff-
iculties. 

In a blog it’s very easy to emphasize differences and
very hard (and cumbersome) to try to overcome them.
That’s the limitation of spaces like this—they
invite—even incite—trolling and verbal venom.
If it continues, ultimately they destroy themselves.
(I speak from experience.) What we need is what South
Africa finally established—a “truth and reconciliation” program nationwide.

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By Inherit The Wind, May 12, 2011 at 6:42 am Link to this comment

To simply label the Weimar Republic as a fascist state is nothing but, well, bad history.  I spent a lot of time studying Weimar and while it was a troubled state, a far more accurate description of it was: “A democracy without Democrats”.

While many things contributed to Weimar being unable to stop the rise of National Socialism, IMHO, the biggest and least discussed factor was the judiciary.  Most of the judges in the court system were Kaiser appointees.  They were generally therefore monarchists and highly biased against Social Democrats, Socialists and Communists.  They were heavily biased in favor of Monarchists, anti-Democrats, racists, Nationalists, and, ultimately, National Socialists.

Under any sane system, someone who attempts armed rebellion gets 20 years to life, but Hitler got a surprisingly small sentence and THAT was reduced—not by the Weimar leadership, but by the courts.  The murderers of Foreign Minister Rathenau received light sentences because the judge found it hard to muster any sympathy for Dr. Rathenau, being a wealthy Jew (He had built up the German General Electric company).

Knowing that the courts were stacked in favor of the anti-democrats and bigots, and against all liberals, undermined the whole legitimacy of the government.

Sound familiar?

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By aacme88, May 12, 2011 at 5:11 am Link to this comment

I have been saying for 25 years that the world will eventually have to deal with the US, in much the same way it had to deal with Germany in another generation. We are right on target for that, with our designated enemy minority. I have already bailed out, as did many Germans in the 1930s, but from here it only looks scarier. The difference is that the US is already in a state of collapse going in. That may be the saving grace, that incompetence overtakes the instinct for domination.

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By ardee, May 12, 2011 at 4:46 am Link to this comment

Ozark says he is mad

His post reminds me of another definition of that word.

Those interested in actual history, instead of the slanted and partisan version handed out by our “madman” will soon understand that the Weimar Republic was brought down by a variety of factors, by both LEFT and RIGHT, and by the economy as well.

Wiki speaks more eloquently than I, so:

Years of crisis (1919–1923)
1923-issue 50 million mark banknote. Worth approximately $1 US when printed, this sum would have been worth approximately $12 million, nine years earlier. The note was practically worthless a few weeks later because of continued inflation.The Republic was soon under attack from both left- and right-wing sources. The radical left accused the ruling Social Democrats of having betrayed the ideals of the workers’ movement by preventing a communist revolution. Various right-wing sources opposed any democratic system, preferring an authoritarian state like the 1871 Empire. To further undermine the Republic’s credibility, some right-wingers (especially certain members of the former officer corps) also blamed an alleged conspiracy of Socialists and Jews for Germany’s defeat in World War I.

For the next five years, Germany’s large cities suffered political violence between left-wing and right-wing groups, both of which committed violence and murder against innocent civilians and against each other, resulting in many deaths. The worst of the violence was between right-wing paramilitaries called the Freikorps and pro-Communist militias called the Red Guards, both of which admitted ex-soldiers into their ranks.

The first challenge to the Weimar Republic came when a group of communists and anarchists took over the Bavarian government in Munich and declared the creation of the Bavarian Soviet Republic. The communist rebel state was put down one month later when Freikorps units were brought in to fight the leftist rebels.

The Kapp Putsch took place on 13 March 1920: a group of 5000 Freikorps troops gained control of Berlin and installed Wolfgang Kapp (a right-wing journalist) as chancellor. The national government fled to Stuttgart and called for a general strike. While Kapp’s vacillating nature did not help matters, the strike crippled Germany’s ravaged economy and the Kapp government collapsed after only four days on 17 March.

Inspired by the general strikes, a communist uprising began in the Ruhr region when 50,000 people formed a “Red Army” and took control of the province. The regular army and the Freikorps ended the uprising on their own authority. Other communist rebellions were put down in March 1921 in Saxony and Hamburg.

Oh, Michael How disappointing that you descend to the level of Grimmie and lucifer

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By OzarkMichael, May 12, 2011 at 4:29 am Link to this comment

Chris Hedges said “...the plight of Muslims is beginning to mirror that of targeted ethnic minority groups on the eve of the war in the former Yugoslavia, or Jews in the dying days of the Weimar Republic.”

Chris Hedges and the Left often lament the demise of the Weimar Republic. As they do so, they point a finger of accusation at American conservatives, claiming that we are Fascists, that history repeats itself, and that we are going to destroy American freedom just as the Nazis destroyed the precious Weimar Republic.

Several times over my years on Truthdig i have posted that the Left cries crocodile tears when it laments the Weimar Republic. Nobody takes the hint.

Today i am not so patient so i will say it plainly.

Two facts: First, it was the Leftists, people like Hedges and the cicadas here, that tried to strangle the nascent German Republic in its cradle. In fact the reason its called the Weimar Republic is because the people who wanted to have a Republic were chased out of Berlin by… LEFTISTS! So every time I here you guys wailing about Weimar, and everytime one of you refers to it “Oh, poor Weimar, oh we are so sorry that the fascists destroyed Weimar!” well, lets just say i have been perplexed by your words for a long time, but now I know that it is pure hypocrisy on your part.

Second thing to learn today, my Leftist friends, is that people used to call the Weimar Republic a fascist state. Yes, long before Hitler came along, some people called Weimar “Fascist”, especially when its policy was more conservative. Who did that? Well, Leftists like Hedges and yourself, thats who.

Yes, Leftists devalued the Weimar Republic, in its old age they weakened it by calling the Weimar Republic… “Fascist”.

And here we are today. You call our government fascist. You call conservatives, and you call me fascist.

Remember, cicadas, that your own words here are so like the Leftists who weakened Weimar. But also remember that history repeats itself.

Remember that Leftists tried to destroy the Republic in its cradle, and that is why it was called ‘Weimar’, named after an insignificant little town, because the people who wanted a Republic werent safe in Berlin, and also remember that later the Leftists called the Weimar Republic “Fascist”. From cradle to grave, the Weimar Republic was not much loved by such as you.

Think about the things you say that devalue our republic today, and the collapse or revolution that many of you hope for. Think about how you are so much like the Leftists who harrowed and weakened the Weimar Republic. And then remember that history really does repeat itself.

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By ardee, May 12, 2011 at 3:31 am Link to this comment

Keep shooting your mouths off boys! Invite all your radical Muslim friends to come here and shoot off their mouths too!

There in a nutshell does Lucifer expose himself for all to see. Thanks you for making your exposure so easy. Worthless you are and worthless you remain.

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By Gary Mont, May 12, 2011 at 1:31 am Link to this comment

Marshall:Odd then that when I think of protests, the ones that come to mind are the non-violent ones.  We have the million-man march, the numerous recent anti-war protests, the tea party rallies, the counter rally with John Stewart and co., the immigration rights protests of cinco de mayo… none of these was ignored by the media.

We are talking mainstream television and newspapers here I hope, not web-news - and these events you listed were given honest and concise coverage by the press, complete with explanations of protest points and sysnopsis of past progress… or were they treated as street parties with lots of shots of the fancy costumes and cameos of pot smokers crouched in alleyways.

When the press cannot ignore a protest because its a high profile organized event such as the million man, they usally treat it as a rather pathetic attempt to get extra candy by children.

This is the equivalent of ignoring it altogether or worse.

If this has changed, then I retract my comment about lack of coverage for some non-violent protests, especially the safe ones that accomplish nothing year after year.

I watch as little TV as possible - waiting for the tea water to boil for instance - so its entirely possible that attitudes have changed and corporate America is now allowing televised coverage of its enemies in the streets.

Hooda thunk it.

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By Marshall, May 11, 2011 at 11:24 pm Link to this comment

By Gary Mont, May 10 at 4:45 pm Link to this comment

“In the west, non-violent protests are simply ignored by the media.”

Odd then that when I think of protests, the ones that come to mind are the non-
violent ones.  We have the million-man march, the numerous recent anti-war
protests, the tea party rallies, the counter rally with John Stewart and co., the
immigration rights protests of cinco de mayo… none of these was ignored by the
media.

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By Virginia777, May 11, 2011 at 10:21 pm Link to this comment

Go Right Young Man:

“In all sincerity I’m not so sure you are capable of understanding what I wrote.”

GRYM, gerard does not speak gibberish.

just saying.

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By Virginia777, May 11, 2011 at 10:19 pm Link to this comment

Lew Ciefer:

“Keep shooting your mouths off boys!”

The one shooting off their mouth here, is you.

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By Virginia777, May 11, 2011 at 10:18 pm Link to this comment

Lew Ciefer:

“Girlie the only screeching here is by the whacked out lefties. Every one of you have resorted to nothing but ad hominem because you are unable to counter the truth”

You are STILL calling me girlie?

What a total moron. And no, it is not truth you are pouring out here, far from it.

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By Virginia777, May 11, 2011 at 10:16 pm Link to this comment

Go Right Young Man:

I understand that Truthdig tolerates your trolling.

But that does not me I have to.

*evil grin*

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By Go Right Young Man, May 11, 2011 at 8:11 pm Link to this comment

gerard,

Do I understand you correctly?  You view answering your own questions is a trap?

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By RayLan, May 11, 2011 at 6:34 pm Link to this comment

Lew Ciefer
“If I had but one word to describe it I would say: incendiary. 100% incendiary propaganda designed to evoke radical emotions from a duped base.”
This kind of argument is typical of the right wing. The circularity of applying the criticism to the fact that one is criticizing. What is incendiary is the deliberate persecution of Islam by any self-righteous means possible. Calling attention to what is incendiary is not itself incendiary - in general claiming that the claim that x is A makes it itself A, is fallacious and is a tired warhorse of right wing rhetoric.

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By gerard, May 11, 2011 at 6:20 pm Link to this comment

GRYM: Angling for dissention again?  It would take years to convince you that your tactics repel conversation and dispute, because you so obviously regard others as either idiots or villains.  You also take a perverse pride in nagging other people, hoping they will fall into your trap and become convinced of your righteousness—a grym combination of naivete and conceit. Have a nice day.

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By Go Right Young Man, May 11, 2011 at 5:05 pm Link to this comment

gerard,

So there we have it.  You treat me as an enemy because we approach things differently.

How many times have you implored others to pay attention to concrete steps toward conflict resolution before the bullets fly?  How many times have you referenced Gene Sharp and his nearly 200 methods of conflict mitigation? 

I believe it’s not an overstatement to point out that you ask these questions with an apparent frustration that others are not trying it, for example, Mr. Sharp’s way.

-

Using the examples of Mr. Sharp allow me two questions.

A. If you can’t hold a civil disagreement with just one human being, how will you bring two, three, or even seven waring or combative parties together?
B. Is it born of frustration that you become angered by your own questions?  Is it that I am the one asking?

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By reynolds, May 11, 2011 at 3:41 pm Link to this comment

lew c; bye

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By truedigger3, May 11, 2011 at 2:58 pm Link to this comment

By Lew Ciefer, May 11 at 1:39 pm Link to this comment

Lew Ciefer wrote:
“Understand ... I ain’t got a dog in this fight. I’ve got cancer and I’m old… “
—————————————
LC,

Then you should have much more mellowed. You are so soaked in hate and prejudice.

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By gerard, May 11, 2011 at 2:29 pm Link to this comment

Special for GRYM:  Come off it with the self-righteousness and the accusations.

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By Inherit The Wind, May 11, 2011 at 2:25 pm Link to this comment

4. Can you post a list of all the non-Muslim suicide bombers/terrorists who have hijacked aircraft, blown up busses, pizza parlors, dance halls, hotels, buildings decapitated civilians trying to restore infrastructure in war-torn Islamic paradises or who have planted IEDs on New York streets, etc. for the past twenty years?
*****

I’ve got this one:

I guess you’ve forgotten about McVeigh and Nichols and the Oklahoma City Bombing.  165 dead.

Or Eric Rudolph bombing the 1996 Olympics and letting Richard Jewell be tarred and tormented for it.

Or the attack on the Holocaust Museum in Washington, DC that cost a guard his life.

Or the attacks on abortion clinics including the recent murder of a doctor in the midwest.

Or that assassination attempt on Cong. Gilford that left 6, including a 9 year old child dead.

Or the attack on the Long Island Subway that killed 16.

Or the Klan-like lynching and murder of James Byrd.

Everyone I’ve named so far is a terrorist act committed against citizens of the United State, by groups or persons with NO affiliation with Islam, and within the last 20 years.  However, many of them claim to be devout Christians.

All evidence also shows that the post-9-11 Anthrax attack was also by non-Muslim Americans against Americans.

It’s best to be sure of your facts before you make claims based on them.

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By Lew Ciefer, May 11, 2011 at 1:44 pm Link to this comment

@ Virginia777, May 10 at 10:28:

Girlie the only screeching here is by the whacked out lefties. Every one of you have resorted to nothing but ad hominem because you are unable to counter the truth. My comments are spot on!

If they aren’t then please girlie ... you, and/or one of your ilk, answer the following…

1. Where are all the crematoriums where Nazi America is brewing the Muslim stew?

2. Exactly what federal statue is it that forces Muslims to wear indentifying arm bands similar to the Jews’ “Star of David” during Nazi persecution as is depicted in Mr. Fish’s lifting of Julius Streicher’s style in his rag, Der Stürmer ?

3. Can anybody say sandnigger or is only the self-absorbed, anti-American bigots asshats enlightened holy ones of the Media that are permitted to use that derogatory term without the usual leftist excoriation?

4. Can you post a list of all the non-Muslim suicide bombers/terrorists who have hijacked aircraft, blown up busses, pizza parlors, dance halls, hotels, buildings decapitated civilians trying to restore infrastructure in war-torn Islamic paradises or who have planted IEDs on New York streets, etc. for the past twenty years?

(State action such as that of the U.S. and other nations in order to prevent further death of innocent civilians does not count girlie, so don’t try and pull a leftie fast one.) smile

5. Can you provide evidence of a mass exodus of Muslims from Nazi America back to their Islamic paradises from whence they came? Surely after reading how bad things are in the U.S. Muslims must be returning in droves to their Islamic paradises once called home, right?

6. Can you explain how it is that Muslims are attempting—in record numbers—to immigrate from their Islamic paradises to the land of the Great Satan (Nazi America)? How is it that Muslims—unlike Jews in Nazi Germany—would be immigrating to the death camps rather than fleeing from them?

7. If Muslim is a race would that not mean that Christians are a race—thus many lefties are now racists due to their anti-Christian bias and bigotry? Does not the same apply for Hindus, Communists, Socialists, Republicans, Democrats, etc. etc.?

8. If Muslim is a race how do you explain Mr. Hedges walking all over his own asinine statement by this in the following sentence: “The Muslim community is not a monolith. It is composed of numerous ethnic, national, cultural and racial groups that often have little in common and in some cases are antagonistic.” Do you see the conundrum here? Mr. Hedges clearly states that the Muslim community is made up of numerous racial groups? DUH!

9. If I convert from Islam tomorrow to Christianity will I have changed my race?

10. Why is it that the dictionary definition—that’s a book filled with words and their definitions recognized by all except Lefties.—of race does not include religious affiliation? Is it not true that race has to do with genetics and nothing at all with religious affiliation?

11. Why do you suppose the dictionary definition for Muslim is: #1: 1.Variant of moslem. 2. a black Muslim #2: a believer in or adherent of Islam? Why is there no mention of race?

12. If two citizens are hassled by government bureaucrats and one citizen cannot get his local representative to take the matter seriously while the other citizen receives an offer to be accompanied by said backboneless representative ... is that persecution or preferential treatment?

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By Lew Ciefer, May 11, 2011 at 1:39 pm Link to this comment

@ ardee & truedigger3:

You two, and others of your ilk, really don’t get what might be happening here, do you?

How would you two bozos describe this article? If I had but one word to describe it I would say: incendiary. 100% incendiary propaganda designed to evoke radical emotions from a duped base.

Understand ... I ain’t got a dog in this fight. I’ve got cancer and I’m old… I just like watching humans doing what they do best ... being stupid!

Keep shooting your mouths off boys! Invite all your radical Muslim friends to come here and shoot off their mouths too!

You do know that one cannot be betrayed by one’s enemies, do you not? Nope! It’s impossible. You can only be betrayed by a friend or one posing as a friend. Judas Iscariot was a friend of Jesus and one of the twelve. He was so trusted that he was in charge of the purse ... the money! Who was Marcus Brutus? Et Tu, Brute?

And what was it that your Queen Mother—Michelle Obama—said about Hedges’ Muslim persecuting, Nazi America? “For the First Time in My Adult Lifetime, I’m Really Proud of My Country”

Do you think the Muslims are aware of what one of their new BFF’s heroes—Lenin—thought about the little people? Didn’t he refer to them as “useful idiots”? Do you two think they—the muslims—will ever wake from the slumber? 

It’s being reported as I type that even George Steinbrenner is a F.B.I. informant! Politics is intrigue; it’s betrayal and deceit and deal making.

All over the commenting streams on this site and others I see people writing that the media, the government, Wall Street, Big Pharma, Big Oil, and Transnationals are not to be trusted. Isn’t Hedges a member of the Media? Have you looked at his bio? He’s a Top Gun; he’s “Maverick” of the MSM.

What was that interesting term? Oh yes… intrusive surveillance. Yeah. Intrusive surveillance…

Remember the opening of 1984?

“On each landing, opposite the lift shaft, the poster with the enormous face gazed from the wall. It was one of those pictures which are so contrived that the eyes follow you about when you move. BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU, the caption beneath it ran.—George Orwell, “1984”

Keep it up boys… nothing to fear here, everyone knows that the Media is your friend! smile

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By Go Right Young Man, May 11, 2011 at 1:04 pm Link to this comment

gerard, - “The presumption’ - ‘is that those who criticize U.S.government policies are anti-American.”

-

You misunderstand the premise concerning my criticism of Hedges.  In fact you wildly misunderstood.

In all sincerity I’m not so sure you are capable of understanding what I wrote.  That is to say; we see Mr. Hedges differently and you appear incapable (perhaps unwilling) of empathizing with opposing views.

I have asked you several questions in order to better understand your thinking.  You repeatedly make the mistake of assuming my questions are designed to be combative.  That is to say: you assume I’m thinking as you do.  Conflicts cannot be resolved that way.

-

Conflict resolution requires understanding the grievances of opposing points of view - while you’re having the disagreement.  Unfortunately you’ve never taken the time.  You simply treat me as an enemy because we approach things differently.

If you can’t hold a civil disagreement with just one human being you will never bring two, three, or even seven waring or combative parties together.

-

Context

If you want to understand my view of Hedges you must, necessarily, understand why I see him as a bigot and racist.  Even if you disagree.

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By gerard, May 11, 2011 at 11:06 am Link to this comment

Oh wait just a little minute, GRYM!  Quoting you:

“Is it possible that Mr. Hedges fails to recognize the anti-American hatred which is spread about every thread on this Web space?  Does he recognize the anti-Americanism in nearly every article he writes?”

The presumption behind this statement is that those who criticize U.S.government policies are “anti-American.” Wrong! Most of these criticisms point out failures to promote traditional AMERICAN VALUES (excuse caps) like justice, equality of opportunity, peaceful settlement of disputes, democratic economic development, working for a more humane world, not empire building, not allowing private greed to dominate public policies, etc. 

All such values were once considered the heart of American democracy, but are now being betrayed by personal greed amd political desire to dominate the world, involving a gross misues of military power which is killng the opportunities of millions of children and young people, here and everywhere else.

American ideals are being betrayed.  Those who criticize such behavior do so because they love their country.  If you can’t understand that, you are blinder than I thought.

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By truedigger3, May 11, 2011 at 8:38 am Link to this comment

Re: By Virginia777, May 10 at 11:13 pm Link to this comment

Gary Mont wrote :
“Sadly, the refusal to believe will have no effect on reality, as usual.”
Wrong.
“I offer the democratic-leaning population’s refusal to believe that Obama is a Republican Ringer as an example.”

Virginia777 replied:
“Bullshit. He is not.”
———————————————————

Virginia777,

Bullshit. HE IS.
You must be smoking weird stuff that is clouding your thinking and perception. Are you in a trance or living in a different planet???!!.

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By JDmysticDJ, May 11, 2011 at 8:33 am Link to this comment

Virginia777

It’s important to me that you understand that I was quoting Igor Slamoff when I wrote:

“Your charge that certain persons instigate ethnic hatred against Muslims is PATENTLY FALSE, for the simple reason that ISLAM IS NOT AN ETHNIC GROUP, but instead a political ideology combined with a religion.”

It’s important to expose morons, don’t you think?

Writing, “Muslims are being stigmatized in America and this is wrong.” Is a little like writing the sky is blue, don’t you think?

I really appreciate your perspective, and I am in agreement with what you wrote. Please forgive me if I have been too defensive, or offensive.

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By sallysense, May 11, 2011 at 8:12 am Link to this comment

when the process of one’s thinking-on-one’s-own is bombarded with pre-conceived thoughts from others as some kind of replacement instead… the human mind needs to see first-hand how status-quo-mentality is made up more so of pre-made thought-products being shipped and received amongst one another rather than the actual process of one’s own thinking-from-scratch…

it’s sad what illusion has grown into (such full-blown degrees of distortion globally) in our world today while so many know so little about it…

(schools need to teach students how everyone’s standard human perception uses illusion which can distort something from being seen “as it actually is”... into something else when thoughts (already in the mind) substitute their own ‘pictures’ (or connotations etc) instead…

then mental pictures that resurface as ignorant social or racial or religious or extremist or manipulative bias etc are less apt to make big impacts as they’ll have advantages of being more prone to use added consideration as they live with themselves and others in our world here!)...

(and those who don’t think people need to know about illusion are already under its influence more than they realize!)...

things need to change to get better!... and awareness is the first step!... smile

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By Anarcissie, May 11, 2011 at 6:12 am Link to this comment

Islam is the replacement for Communism.  A war-addicted society needs a war, and a war needs an enemy.  If Islam went away we would be directed to fight the Buddhists, or the Martians.

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By RayLan, May 11, 2011 at 3:45 am Link to this comment

The history of no religion with the possible exception of the Quakers, is exempt from the charge of violent extremism. Certainly not Christianity. The recent bout of Islamophobia is fueled by the Christian Right whose anointed hatreds form a long list from gays to blacks to women or anybody who is not in the white male Protestant affluent culture. There is always some distorted biblical reference of course, for persecution - not suprisingly the KKK are famous Bible-thumpers. Religion’s proclivity for short-circuiting reason and critical thinking is the active toxic ingredient for fanaticism of every strain. Unfortunately the latest extremism is Muslim, an opportune trigger for self-justified Christian and/or conservative violent reaction.

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By ardee, May 11, 2011 at 3:15 am Link to this comment

Gary Mont, May 10 at 10:12 pm Link to this comment

This is all such a crock of shit.

Terrorism is the last resort of a people who have been bombed into the stone age, to retaliate against an aggressor who wields superior armament while occupying the lands of the people they conquered.

Exactly! Further, to condemn 1.4 billion people for the actions of a few thousand is really dumb. But, after all, hatred is a tool to keep us separated and powerless.

Marshall returns after a long and well appreciated absence to spout the usual drivel. Follow his lead and blame the victims if you wish.

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By Gary Mont, May 11, 2011 at 1:08 am Link to this comment

Gary Mont said:“I offer the democratic-leaning population’s refusal to believe that Obama is a Republican Ringer as an example.”

Virginia777:Bullshit. He is not.

—-

I rest my case. Thanks.

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By Philip Toal, May 10, 2011 at 11:42 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Yes Chris, very true and well written as to the facts. Maybe you will write about
how it is over here in Europe - ugly.

Here in Germany If one says anything that puts the Israeli rip-off into question.
evebrows will be raised. On the other hand, anything said to be anti Muslim will
never endanger one not to be invited back.

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By Virginia777, May 10, 2011 at 11:21 pm Link to this comment

Gary Mont:

“In fact, if this website begins to produce anything remotely resembling concrete solutions that might interfere with the ongoing feeding frenzy, it will be infiltrated by federal forces and become a tool for the opposition, over night.”

YOU have no need to worry, Gary.

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By Virginia777, May 10, 2011 at 11:13 pm Link to this comment

Gary Mont:

“Sadly, the refusal to believe will have no effect on reality, as usual.”

Wrong.

“I offer the democratic-leaning population’s refusal to believe that Obama is a Republican Ringer as an example.”

Bullshit. He is not.

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By Gary Mont, May 10, 2011 at 10:43 pm Link to this comment

Virginia777:No. I refuse to believe that.

Sadly, the refusal to believe will have no effect on reality, as usual.

I offer the democratic-leaning population’s refusal to believe that Obama is a Republican Ringer as an example.

You will notice that the refusal to believe this does not prevent Obama from fulfilling; one after the other, every fascist dream of the Bush Republican Party.

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By Virginia777, May 10, 2011 at 10:28 pm Link to this comment

Lew Ciefer:

“What part of that is beyond your ability to comprehend?”

Do you comprehend this?

Stop it with the screetching.

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