Top Leaderboard, Site wide
Shop the Truthdig Gift Guide 2014
December 22, 2014
Truthdig: Drilling Beneath the Headlines
Sign up for Truthdig's Email NewsletterLike Truthdig on FacebookFollow Truthdig on TwitterSubscribe to Truthdig's RSS Feed

Get Truthdig's headlines in your inbox!


Loss of Rainforests Is Double Whammy Threat to Climate






Truthdig Bazaar
Motherhood Manifesto

Motherhood Manifesto

By Joan Blades and Kristin Rowe-Finkbeiner
$8.97

The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949

The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949

By Benny Morris (Author), Roger Owen (Editor), Edmund Burke (Editor), Michael C. Hudson (Editor), Walid Kazziha (Editor), Rashid Khalidi (Editor), Serif Mardin (Editor)

more items

 
Report

Palestinians’ Hard Choice: An Interview With Sari Nusseibeh

Email this item Email    Print this item Print    Share this item... Share

Posted on May 3, 2007
Nusseibeh
bcm.bc.edu

By Jon Wiener

Sari Nusseibeh [right], a leading Palestinian intellectual and political figure, is a long-time advocate of a two-state solution and was the PLO’s chief representative in Jerusalem in 2001 and 2002.  He is now president of Al Quds University, the only Arab university in Jerusalem.  His memoir, “Once Upon a Country: A Palestinian Life,” was published in April by Farrar, Straus and Giroux.  I spoke with Nusseibeh April 30 in Los Angeles.

Jon Wiener:  What did the 2006 July War in Lebanon look like to you in Jerusalem?

Sari Nusseibeh:  It was totally crazy, an example of how wars can sometimes be totally useless.  In that war, the stated objective was to recover two Israeli soldiers who had been kidnapped by the other side, and today those two soldiers are still in custody.  The entire Lebanese people paid a very high price in the destruction and devastation of their country and their capital, and for nothing.

Wiener:  The Israelis did not win this war.  Would you say Hezbollah won the war?

Nusseibeh:  Hezbollah does say it won the war, but I would say both sides lost.  Because you have to look not only at the political party or leadership that’s carrying out the war; you have to look beyond that at the country itself and the people themselves.  And if you look at the people of Lebanon, I believe the war has pushed them back generations.  Destroyed their lives and livelihoods, their infrastructure.  I think it’s a war where two sides have lost.

Advertisement

Square, Site wide
Wiener:  What effect did the July War have on Palestinians?  I’ve heard that the most popular figure among Palestinians is the head of Hezbollah, Hassan Nasrallah.  Is that true?

Nusseibeh: At the time the war was on, that was true.  Every time he came out on the TV screens he was always smiling and talking gently and always escaping the attempts by the Israeli army to take him out.  Every time the Israelis said they had managed to kill him, he would appear a day or two later.  So he really captured the hearts of the Palestinians and perhaps of the Arabs more generally—as a beaten people, as a people who have been constantly beaten in wars. He personified for them the ability to stand up to Israeli military might.  But perhaps since then things have changed.

Wiener:  The Israelis say “our soldiers were kidnapped by terrorists who crossed a recognized international boundary, 3,000 rockets were fired at our civilians, hundreds of thousands of our civilians were driven from their homes into shelters, what were we supposed to do?  Of course we had to respond.”

Nusseibeh:  You are describing events during the war, but those have to be separated from what happened at the beginning.  What happened at the beginning was two Israeli soldiers were taken prisoner by Hezbollah.  The very first step was Israel’s insistence that it should go to war to retrieve the two prisoners.  That was the first mistake.  Then other mistakes followed.  Clearly they were not prepared for and did not expect such intensive opposition and resistance from the other side.  It was totally unexpected. 

Wiener:  Some analysts say we have to see that war as a proxy war between the U.S. and Iran.  Do you agree?

Nusseibeh:  It was a proxy war between people who take positions very hastily and think they can quickly destroy the other side, not giving any respect for how strong they might be. 

Wiener:  Your book “Once Upon a Country” ends with the elections to the Palestinian Legislative Council in early 2006, that shocking moment when Hamas won a lot more seats than Fatah.  The Israeli right argued that this election proved peace with the Palestinians was impossible.  What’s your understanding of the outcome of those elections?

Nusseibeh:  That argument is very far from reality, in my opinion.  We know for example that these elections took place a year after the presidential elections following the death of Arafat.  In those elections, Abu Mazen was elected by a majority of the Palestinians.  Everybody, including the Palestinians, assumed that this vote was a vote for peace.  Abu Mazen, even in the time of Arafat, was the man of peace, the man who embodied the Oslo process.  But a whole year passed with Abu Mazen as president when the people who elected him did not see any tangible progress towards peace.  So there was a lot of frustration.  That’s the first point you need to understand.

Second is that when the elections were finally held and Hamas won, there was a problem with the people in Fatah who did not get together.  They did not run as a single party.  That wasted votes.  That was another reason why Hamas won.  If you added up the votes of all the different Fatah people who ran, I think you would find Hamas did not win a majority,

Wiener:  If we are listing the missed opportunities, certainly the Israeli failure following death of Arafat was one.  There is also the Israeli pullout from Gaza.  It seemed at one point that that might be the prelude to a broad pullout from the West Bank.  That didn’t happen.  The Israelis blamed the Palestinian Authority for failing to disarm terrorist groups in Gaza, which has remained a base for attacks on southern Israel.  What went wrong with the Gaza pullout?

Nusseibeh:  We have to go back to the beginning—and look not just at what happened after the Israeli pullout.  At the time, [Ariel] Sharon himself argued that this unilateral pullout was a step toward ending the occupation throughout the territories.  But Palestinians argued at the time that the unilateral nature of this pullout would enable some groups to claim that the Israelis were leaving only because of the rockets and the fighting on the Hamas side.  What was required at the time was a mutual agreement between the Israelis and the Palestinians. 

As soon as the Israelis withdrew, the Hamas people in Gaza declared military victory, the same way Hezbollah declared military victory when Israel withdrew from southern Lebanon.  They said “we pushed them out with our guns, and this shows we should go on fighting on the West Bank.”  What happened was the growing strength for the military wing in Gaza, leading to the situation we find today.  The moral, I believe, is that any step toward peace in the region must be mutual, must be reciprocal, must be agreed upon by the two sides.  You cannot make peace unilaterally, the way you can make war unilaterally.  You can only make peace bilaterally.

Wiener:  In your book “Once Upon a Country” your account of the 1948 war is different from the prevailing history in Israel and the U.S.  Our understanding here is that six Arab armies attacked the new state of Israel after it declared independence in 1948.  The neighboring Arab states rejected a U.N. partition plan that would have created a Palestinian state alongside Israel.  You don’t mention this invasion in your book.

Nusseibeh:  The fact is that these armies attacked.  The question is, what was the reason?  Why did they attack?  Was it that they attacked because they rejected the partition plan, or because some or most of them wanted to grab as much territory as possible, given the fact of the partition plan?  One Israeli historian, Benny Morris, claims that the Arab armies went in mostly in a land grab, to get as much land for themselves as possible.  I’m not sure, but it seems that people assumed Israel was going to have part of this land, and the question on the part of the Arab governments was whether this land was going to be given to the Palestinians to establish their own state, or whether we should step in and appropriate the land for ourselves.  This was primarily the motivation for their entry into the country at that time.

Certainly the Palestinians rejected the partition plan.  There is no doubt that they were very angry at the partition plan and did not wish for Israel to be created at the time.  It took them a long time until they came around to seeing that they had to accept this partition plan, and that perhaps the future can be better for themselves if a peace is worked out with the Israelis.

Wiener:  The biggest obstacle in any peace settlement, according to the Israelis, is the Palestinian claim of a right of return.  In 1948 your mother’s family was expelled from land that had been theirs for generations.  What do you tell your Palestinian comrades about the right of return?

Nusseibeh:  This is the most painful part of a compromise that has to be made between Israelis and Palestinians.  We have to think not only of the past but also of the future.  I’ve been accused of arguing that we don’t have a right of return.  That is false.  I think we have a right of return.  But we have other rights as well.  We have a right to freedom.  We have a right to independence.  We have a right to create a new future.  And very often in life the implementation of one right conflicts with the ability to implement another.  You have to make a choice.  In this case, I’ve been arguing with my peers, my colleagues, my people, that we must choose, and that, morally speaking, the best choice is to opt for the right to freedom, the right to independence, and the right to a new future.

Wiener:  You were an important figure in the first intifada, 1987-1991, which relied on massive civil disobedience.  The second intifada began in 2000 after Sharon’s provocative visit to the Temple Mount—that is the intifada of the suicide bombers. How do you explain the difference between the two?

Nusseibeh:  The first intifada was an explosion of frustration.  The challenge at the time was, can we turn this explosion into something with a political objective?  There were three elements that helped into making that explosion into a political act.  One was the existence of leadership.  We had that—it was called the Unified Leadership of the Uprising.  Second, it had a vision—the vision was, we want to lead all of this movement toward negotiations with Israel to create a Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as its capital.  Third, that intifada also had a day-by-day, month-by-month strategy to bring us to that conclusion.  That strategy was primarily civil disobedience, and that is primarily how I was involved in the intifada.  We succeeded in the sense that we finally were able to bring the two peoples closer to realizing that two-state solution was the only feasible solution, and indeed we got negotiations between the two parties.

With this latter explosion of violence, which began in 2000, I refuse to call this an intifada, because it had neither a leadership, nor a vision, nor a plan.  It was simply—in my opinion—a crazy expression of frustration and anger, totally useless, chaotic and certainly counterproductive, involving acts of violence and of terrorism that only brought ruin to the Palestinian people and to our achievements.

Wiener:  Does the recent electoral success of Hamas make you worried that you might have to live in an Islamic fundamentalist state?  What do you see as the future of Islamic fundamentalism among the Palestinians?

Nusseibeh:  There are two parts to this question.  The first part concerns what kind of state I would wish to live in.  When I have resisted occupation, calling for an independent Palestinian state, I really need a state that will respect my rights as an individual.  Will respect my freedoms, will be a lawful state where there’s equality, freedom of opinion.  I do not believe a rigid Islamic fundamentalist state would provide me with this, so it’s not the state that I have fought for, and certainly not the one I would want to live in.

But behind the fundamentalism, behind Hamas and its ideology, are the people, and it’s easy to reach out to the people.  You can never change the ideology itself.  The question is how big or small it is going to be in the general landscape.  I think it can be limited by reaching out to people, providing them with hope, with progress, with the ability to provide a better life for themselves and their families in the future.

 

 

 


New and Improved Comments

If you have trouble leaving a comment, review this help page. Still having problems? Let us know. If you find yourself moderated, take a moment to review our comment policy.

Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, May 27, 2007 at 6:36 pm Link to this comment

Re #73284 by Peter RV on 5/27 at 3:25 pm

One further thought: I am trying to dissipate the illusion that that the United States is a naive but basically well-intentioned tool of Israel, the idea that “Jews own and control the media to manipulate the American people and also manipulate U.S. politics through AIPAC”  Not that this isn’t true, but a big part of the picture is missing unless it is also seen that it goes on with the encouragement and consent of U.S. imperialists because it does serve their hegemonic interests. It is an important part of the lie the American people are fed to engineer their consent to imperialism. We have to go to war agaist Iraq or Iran, not for oil, but to protect our plucky little ally, Israel. It goes along with “freedom”, “democracy” and all the other phony reasons given why we must bear the white man’s burden and bomb brown people.

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, May 27, 2007 at 6:22 pm Link to this comment

Re #73284 by Peter RV on 5/27 at 3:25 pm

Ref.#73258 by T.Wicher

“Zionism has always been creature of imperialism, first British then American”

I don’t believe that; simply, for not seeing any usefullness whatsoever of Zionism for building of these empires. On the contrary, the Zionism hindered the internal harmony among certain parts of these. Empires would have functioned much smoother without it.
===================================================
Peter,

Thanks for the intelligent challenge to my statements.

Perhaps it was an exaggeration on my part to call Israel a “creature” of U.S. and British imperialism. Israel is the result of an alliance between two strong and independent forces, Zionist ideology and U.S.-British imperialism. Zionism itself is a colonialist project, and so has dovetailed with imperialist agendas ever since the Balfour declaration, where the British “gave” the Zionists a “national home” in Palestine. Zionism does have its own agenda, which often does conflict with that of imperialism, as seen in the late 40’s when Zionists were getting ready to take over and even bombed the British to get them out of the way. But without U.S. support Zionism alone cannot stand. All they will have is their nuclear weapons.  Lefty’s insane threats (see below) about Israeli nuclear weapons being used against the world are hollow.

Report this

By cann4ing, May 27, 2007 at 5:54 pm Link to this comment

Just when I thought he couldn’t get worse, Ephraim “lefty” Pesach proves me wrong.  Now he’s morphed into General Curtis “bomb ‘em into the stone age” LeMay.

Report this

By Peter RV, May 27, 2007 at 4:25 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Ref.#73258 by T.Wicher

  “Zionism has always been creature of imperialism, first British then American”
  I don’t believe that; simply, for not seeing any usefullness whatsoever of Zionism for building of these empires. On the contrary, the Zionism hindered the internal harmony among certain parts of these. Empires would have functioned much smoother without it.
If anything, Zionists were using these Empires for their own agenda.
By extension of this idea, you conclude that
“Israel is being used by U.S. imperialism to manipulate U.S. public opinion”.
  To be more convincing, you should clarify how Israel is being used to manipulate us into accepting our imperialistic agressions. Again, I can only see Israel as a bother in that endevour.
  If you had stated that American Jewish organizations are pushing Israel into its irrational acts, that could have been a good point for discussion.
  For me, America is, unlike AIPAC, JINSA,PNAC etc, guilty mainly of its fabulous stupidity , naivete and ignorance.

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, May 27, 2007 at 2:58 pm Link to this comment

Re #73166 by Robert on 5/27 at 5:40 am
(30 comments total)

“Cheney & his zionist old gang are in a hurry before GW Bush’s term ends. What does AIPAC, the zionist gang in Washington & Israel have on Bush & Cheney?”

In the final analysis, I don’t think AIPAC “has anything” against Bush and Cheney. Zionism has always been a creature of imperialism, first British, then American. Zionism is finally a red herring and a pretext to justify imperialism. Israel is being used by U.S. imperialism to manipulate U.S. public opinion - until now. But the Iraq fiasco may cause the American people to turn against imperialism, and when it does, it will turn against Israel too.

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, May 27, 2007 at 1:53 pm Link to this comment

Re “#72901 by lilmamzer on 5/26 at 5:44 am

One further point:

As an American citizen, I have my own right of national self-determination, one which, unlike that of Israel, does not exclude anyone by race, creed, color or national origen. I believe that the current alliance with Israel is very bad for my country, and that the nature of this relationship must be changed. I want my country to stop supporting Israeli apartheid. You are talking tough now, but I would like to see how big Israel’s balls are without U.S. support. Speaking of “nothing”, without the U.S., Israel is nothing. They are not much more than a military garrison of the U.S. government. When U.S. imperialism and militarism fall, Zionism will also fall. I work and pray for that day to come.

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, May 27, 2007 at 1:33 pm Link to this comment

Comment #73176 by Ernest Canning on 5/27 at 6:55 am

“Oops, I have forgotten that within the twisted mind of Ephraim “lefty” Pesach there are no “innocent” Palestinians, not even the children—just untermenschen to be squashed.”

Ernest Canning…here are some numbers & statistics for those fanatic zionists to chew on:


“Fifty-Nine Years of Dispossession”

“Israel and the Land”

By Samer Assad   05/18/2007


“Many blame the dispossession of Palestinians on Arab rejection of the partition plan or United Nations Resolution 181 of 29 November 1947. What is left out of this argument is that the plan gave 55.5 percent of the land to a section of the population (Jewish) who owned 5.4 percent of the land and constituted 32 percent of the total population.

After Israel declared statehood on 15 May 1948, not only did its borders incorporate more than 77 percent of the land, including 460 Palestinian villages, its leaders gained controlled of everything the British left behind. That, according to documents in Atlas of Palestine 1948, including 2,000 miles of first-class roads, 24,000 miles of railroads, 41 railway stations, 31 airports, 33 hospitals, 15 post offices, 37 military camps (including unused ammunition and supplies), 99 police stations and posts, 350 schools, 1,984 Christian and Muslim religious buildings and 3,649 sources of water (wells, springs, cisterns, etc.).”
—————————————-

Certainly there was a large population of Palestinians in Palestine way before 1947 and way before the massive influx of Jews fleeing Europe in the 1940’s. European Jews forced their way into Palestine via the British military occupation at that time. The British were NOT occupying nothing…they were NOT occupying sand piles…as the twisted “Ephraim Pesach” implies.

Wouldn’t all of us would like to see what these zionists have to offer in regards to “references”; such as books, from reputable historians to support their claims that there were NO Palestinian People?

Here is the link to rest of numbers & other detailed statistics.:

http://www.counterpunch.org/assad05182007.html

Report this

By cann4ing, May 27, 2007 at 8:59 am Link to this comment

Oops!  I need to correct my last post which should have been addressed to “Tony” Wicher, not “Peter.”  Mea culpa!

Report this

By cann4ing, May 27, 2007 at 7:55 am Link to this comment

Peter Wicher.  While I congratulate you on your scholarly posting, I am fairly confident it will not pierce the dense veneer of the brainless Zionists who post on this site.  Predicably lilmamzer’s only come back was to cite the latest unfortunate Israeli casualty in this 60-year war while ignoring the deaths innocent Palestinians slaughtered throughout when the IDF indiscriminately shells or bulldozes their homes.  Oops, I have forgotten that within the twisted mind of Ephraim “Lefty” Pesach there are no “innocent” Palestinians, not even the children—just untermenschen to be squashed.

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, May 27, 2007 at 6:40 am Link to this comment

“Frustrated with Bush, the Veep Urges Israel to Attack Iran”

Cheney, Israel and Iran

By Gary Leupp

May 26 / 27, 2007


“Clemens cites a Cheney aide as indicating “that Cheney himself is frustrated with president Bush and believes, much like Richard Perle, that Bush is making a disastrous mistake” by supporting the diplomatic approach to Iran apparently favored by the State Department. So Cheney plans to deploy an “end run strategy” around the president (who’s more swayed at present by Condi Rice’s “realist” than Cheney’s neocons) if his flank doesn’t prevail and Bush resists the demand of the neocons and the AIPAC lobby for a bloody showdown.”


Hmmm! Sounds like the same route, same names for the start of the Iraq war…So Cheney and his zionist pals are at it again to take the U.S. to another disastrous route for an attack & possible long drawn out war with Iran. More Americans & thousands of dead civilians.

Cheney & his zionist old gang are in a hurry before GW Bush’s term ends. What does AIPAC, the zionist gang in Washington & Israel have on Bush & Cheney?


Here is the link:

http://www.counterpunch.org/leupp05262007.html

Report this

By lilmamzer, May 27, 2007 at 6:35 am Link to this comment

PALESTINIAN ARAB WAR CRIMES CONTINUE…....
===========================================
Last update - 13:31 27/05/2007          
Israeli killed by Qassam strike on car in Sderot
By Mijal Grinberg, Amos Harel and Avi Issacharoff, Haaretz Correspondents, and AP

A Hod Hasharon resident was killed Sunday when a Qassam rocket fired from the Gaza Strip hit the car in which he was driving in the western Negev town of Sderot.

The man, 35-year-old Oshri Oz, was wounded in his neck by shrapnel, and taken to Barzilai Medical Center in Ashkelon in critical condition. He succumbed to his wounds a short while later.

Oz was the second person to be killed by a Qassam rocket in less than a week.

Two Qassam rockets hit Israel earlier Sunday, one landing in Sderot causing property damage and the other near a kibbutz in the western Negev. Neither rocket caused casualties. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attacks.
==================================
These Palestinian Arab rockets are aimed specifically at civilian population centers to kill and maim ordinary Israeli Jews.

Report this

By lilmamzer, May 27, 2007 at 5:36 am Link to this comment

===================================
May 26, 2007, 11:59 AM (GMT+02:00)
  Home blasted in Sderot  
 

Home blasted in Sderot
 

Palestinian Arab crews have taken to firing upgraded weapons out of Gaza’s Palestinian refugee camps, using the inmates as human shields to ward off the Israeli Air Force instead of deploying them in the North. By using standard explosives, the upgraded weapons pack an extra punch and fly deeper into Israel.

One of these upgraded missiles, which exploded Friday night in Sderot’s Neve Eshkol neighborhood blasted every flat in a four-story residential building, spreading fragments over a wide area with the effect of a cluster bomb.

Report this

By Peter RV, May 27, 2007 at 3:43 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Well,TruthDig Editor, aren’t three days enough to check if my comment ( to T.Wicher’s) is fit to print?

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, May 26, 2007 at 5:59 pm Link to this comment

Re “#72901 by lilmamzer on 5/26 at 5:44 am

“Israel is the Jewish State. It is not for you or anyone else to tell Jews they can or cannot live as free people in their own homeland. You. Cannot. Dictate. That.”

The Jews are a nation, more so than any other people on the planet, actually. All your wishing won’t make that fact go away.

It’s not for you to say it ain’t so.

Get it now?”
====================================================
Lil,

It is for me to oppose racism in every form, be it anti-Semitism or Zionism. It is for me to oppose injustice and defend the opressed wherever anywhere and everywhere in this world. Do you get that?

Let us try to undestand each other.
 
Let me say a few words about myself. I am a 61-year-old American citizen living in Ontario, California. I am a computer programmer by profession. I am of Russian Jewish ancestry on my mother’s side. I was not raised as a Jew either by culture or religion, so I’m just a plain American citizen, not a Jewish-American or any other kind of hyphenated American. It is not my ancestry or cultural heritage that makes me an American citizen, but the fact that I was born in the United States and therefore am a citizen by law. I have a genetic and cultural inheritance like everyone else, and there is certainly quite a bit of Jew involved - maybe enough to have gotten me gassed by Hitler, as we used to discuss at the dinner table when I was a boy - but there is also Anglo-Saxon, German, Slavic and who knows what my great great grandparents might have been up to? I am as proud as you please of all my ancestors, and also of the multicultured tapestry called American culture to which they have all contributed. While I am at it,  I would certainly like to give Jewish Americans a special word of thanks for having contributed so richly to that tapestry which is the fabric of my life.   

Now, I would like to pursue two tracks. One is a theoretical discussion of whether a Jewish state is morally possible by today’s democratic standards. I say it isn’t; you say it is. The other track has to do with why this Jewish state is located in historical Judea and Samaria, instead of Botswanna or Texas. I hope you will address my statements on both points:

(1) Concerning the inconsistency of the idea of a Jewish state with fundamental democratic principles:

You say “Jews are a nation, more so than any people on the planet”. If they are a nation, how is that nation defined? In other words, how are “Jews” defined? By where they were born? No; Jews can be born anywhere. Being born or not born in Israel does not make one a Jew. If an Arab is born in Israel, that does not make him a Jew. But the most fundamental principles of democracy say that anyone born in a country is a citizen of that country. So if Israel is “the Jewish state”, that means that non-Jews can’t be citizens. In fact, Arab citizens are such in name only, in a state which is set up to be the expression of Jewish national self-determination. This situation is the very essence of racism. You might keep some Arabs around as your houseboys, but that’s what it amounts to. There is a movement headed by Avigdor Lieberman to transfer all Arab “citizens” out of Israel because they are a potential “fifth column”, and indeed they are - like Azmi Bishara, the Knesset member recently exiled from Israel as a threat to the Jewish state. This policy is the logical conclusion of Jewish nationalism.

(continued in next comment)

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, May 26, 2007 at 5:58 pm Link to this comment

Re “#72901 by lilmamzer on 5/26 at 5:44 am
(continued from above)

(2) Concerning the connection between modern Jews and ancient Judaea and Samaria:

Although the Romans destroyed the second temple and Jews went into diaspora, Jewish culture was not destroyed. Jews preserved their culture in the diaspora, and the Romans did not extirpate all traces of Jewish culture in Palestine. The Wailing Wall remained, Jews from all over the world have made pilgrimages to it through all these centuries, and 5-10 percent of the population was Jewish under the Ottoman Empire. In fact, Jews, Christians and Muslims coexisted there fairly peacefully for centuries. No doubt there were incidents of persecution, but compared to Christian countries, where the Catholic Church was telling all the little kids that the Jews killed Jesus, compared to the Spanish Inquisition, Jews were doing pretty well. Yes, they all lived together, Jews, Muslims, snd some of the most ancient Christians too, worshiping at their respective holy sites. These people, including the Jews, are what we now call “Palestinians”. Palestinian Jews were as against the Zionist immigration as other Palestinians, and even now, they and their descendants refuse to fight in the Israeli army and want the Zionists to go away and to give the land back to their fellow Palestinians. They say Zionism is a perversion of Judaism. The real, historical connection between Jews and the Holy Land hs nothing to do with the Zionist monstrosity conceived in the fevered brain of Theodore Herzl. Even he eventually repudiated it, so I am told.

Report this

By cann4ing, May 26, 2007 at 4:30 pm Link to this comment

Actually, limamzer and Ephraim “Lefty” Pesach, I suspect most truthdig readers and anyone with half a brain would fear that the two of you have been infected by Deranged Zionist Syndrome.  Your continuing rants merely confirm that you will conflate any criticism of Israel, however, valid as anti-semitism, even if it comes from people of Jewish decent or other Israelis who simply do not share your myopic, racist views. 

In any event, since I am growing tired of your repetitive, non-sensical and obnoxious rants, I do not intend to provide you with a further response.  Quite frankly, your insanity is beginning to bore me.

Report this

By lilmamzer, May 26, 2007 at 3:36 pm Link to this comment

MEANWHILE, Palestinian Arabs in Jew-free gaza continue to fire Qassam rockets at the Israeli civilian population of Sderot, a desert town with a population mainly comprised of Jewish refugees from Arab countries.

Yes, part of the 800,000 refugees you never hear about from Tony Wicher, Fadel, Robert Canning, and the rest of those suffering from Israel Derangement Syndrome.

So let’s review: 800,000 Jews from Arab countries were dispossessed and forced to flee their homes in 1948 and afterwards, whereupon some of them made new lives as pioneers in the Israeli town of Sderot. Only to be the victims, once again, of Arab terror and attempts to exterminate them.

And this after the last Jew left Gaza years ago.

Israel Derangement Syndrome sufferers (you know who you are), you need to review your history and learn that the majority of Israel’s 6 million Jews have roots in Israel itself and the Arab countries of the Middle East. And all are victims of discrimination, oppression, and terror from the Arabs and Muslims.

Report this

By lilmamzer, May 26, 2007 at 2:52 pm Link to this comment

ISRAEL DERANGEMENT SYNDROME: an irrational hatred of Jews and the Jewish State of Israel and the Jewish national movement, Zionism.

Queers for Palestine are emblematic of this disease, Israel Derangement Syndrome. (Tony Wicher and Robert Canning and Fadel take note - you are all likewise diseased.)
They hate Israel/Jews so much, they’re completely blind to the fact that in their beloved “Palestine,” guys with hairy arms wearing brassieres don’t just get funny looks from the passersby. They end up in ditches, riddled with Hamas or Fatah or Islamic Jihad bullets, or stabbed to death by a father, brother or cousin.

While in (evil, racist, Zionist, apartheid, ____________ [insert irrational and factually incorrect epithet here]) Israel, they hold an annual gay pride parade. And they march by the thousands. First they apply for and get a rally permit, just like in the any US city or in Europe, and then they express themselves in a way they could never do in “Palestine” or any Arab nation.

But of course, Israel is the problem.

Idiots!

Report this

By lilmamzer, May 26, 2007 at 2:36 pm Link to this comment

QUEERS FOR PALESTINE

http://www.quitpalestine.org

I shit you not.

Thee you have it, Israel Derangement Syndrome, all wrapped up in one neat and freaky package.

Queer in Egypt? IN PRISON

Queer in Saudi Arabia? DECAPITATED

Queer in P A L E S T I N E ?  VERY VERY DEAD

Report this

By lilmamzer, May 26, 2007 at 1:05 pm Link to this comment

Lefty wrote:

“Cite me a single Arab/Muslim nation that affords the same freedoms to non-Arab/Muslims that you demand Israel afford to Arab/Muslims!  Just one will do!”

Right, there’s no double-standard. After all, Israel deserves condemnation just for existing. Because it’s made up of JEWS.

Perfect example of this lunacy: There’s a group called “Queers For Palestine”. Never mind that fact that in Israel, homosexuals live open and free lives, able to be who they are without fear. They hold annual parades in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv celebrating their sexual preferences and lifestyles. But in “Palestine” (as well as in ANY Arab country) if they come out of the closet they risk being killed. Still, the evil Israeli Jews are the problem. If it wasn’t so sad it would be funny.

Report this

By Peter RV, May 26, 2007 at 9:10 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Ref.#72715
Agree we shouldn’t be answering Lefty who is in his state of eternal exaltation, but as you say, we should study him.
There might be something decent in any human being, as you say, but, my God,very often it is mighty difficult to detect that “something” in some individuals.( Nazis were/are also human beings, weren’t they?)
What I find particularly troubling about the mentality of Lefty and his kind, is an uncanny similarity with the SS Nazies, and I don’t mean to be offensive.
Both declare with pride their hatred for the subject of their destruction ,inevitably an inferior race, and both are intolerant as hell, towards any discussion of the facts. As Nazies, they have their own truths and facts, which must stay untouchable.
There is a dissimilarity between them, of course, but even these are sometimes in Nazi favour. Hitler proclaimed openly his agressive expansionist policy, whilst the Zionists do this carefully (and cleverly, so far-one may add) masquerading it under the “security” for Israel.This, of course, requires a constant avalanche of lies and deceptions, far more than Goebbles coud have ever dreamt of. Nazies, having never practiced wars by proxies as Zionists do, didn’t need to throw so much thrash and filth on us. It is true that Jews don’t have (yet)their Brownshirts parading in our streets singing warpath songs but whenever there is a discussion about our role (and theirs) in masacres of Palestinians, their goons are there to prevent any truth from becoming too inconvenient.
Never mind Ahmadinejad being a Hitler, the regime that needs to be changed first,is the one in Israel.

Ref# 72876 by Robert
“Arab imposteur”? I would always prefer to be even that to being Zionazi sympatizer, but in fact, I am neither.
I am not a Muslim and I dont have a drop of Semitic blood i.e. neither Arab or Jewish. What I do have is some sense of Justice.
I become first aware of what was going on in Palestine through the writings of Maxim Ghilan (Israeli) and the much lamented Edward Said( Palestinian). They very much lifted the fog from my eyes, which I came to realize it was there because it was very cleverly planted by those who didn’t want me to learn the facts about,a probably, the worst atrocity of history committed on a a single people. I then lost whatever was left of my confidence in the reportining about the ME. Now I am a free thinker about the situation in Palestine and elsewhere and I deciphre the news from there in my own code.
  What I have discovered since is the propaganda effort to analyse conviviently the “anti-Semitism” into cathegories which fit the stereotypes easy to argue against. There are, we are incessantly being told, the antisemitism of Christians (especially Catholics) based on the crucifiction of Christ, the antisemitism due to Arian rascism and the anti-Semitism due to the envy of Goyim towards the successes of the Jews.Until recently, not a word about the antisemitism due to the current behaviour of the Semites. Well, perhaps, that is the one impossible to combat, and there comes the Lefty and Co’s utter frustration from. They have to resort to denials of the obvious, lies, curses, swears and insults. Frankly, what else can they do?

Report this

By cann4ing, May 26, 2007 at 8:44 am Link to this comment

Fadel, while I agree that Lefty’s rants are, indeed, “sick,” I also believe in his First Amendment right to express them.  In an odd way, Lefty unknowingly and unintentionally serves the Palestinian cause by exposing the amoral, racist depravity of Zionism.  In a previous posting, Robert made reference to Ephraim “Lefty” Pesach’s “damaging blows.”  In reality, Mr. Pesach’s open hostility to the entire Arab population of the planet, his willingness to question whether Palestinian children have a right to live, has only served to underscore the moral bankruptcy of Zionism.  His verbal “blows” are more damaging to his own credibility than to anyone else.

One of the interesting side-bars of all this is how it weighs on the prior colloquy between Tony Wicher and Inherit the Wind on a one-state vs. a two-state solution.  While I believe that from a purely democratic ideal, a one-state solution that would create a truly democratic Israel in which all citizens, regardless of religious, racial or ethnic background would have equal rights, the degree of pathological racist hatred expressed by Mr. Pesach and some of his fellow travelers suggests that the two-state solution embodied in President Carter’s “Palestine, Peace not Apartheid” and UN Resolution 242 may be more practical.  There is a dire need to change the AIPAC-dominated policies of the U.S.; to move toward the two-state solution, one which would entail a “viable” Palestinian state, and, hopefully, not only peace between that state and Israel, but one day mutual respect and commerce.

The front page of today’s New York Times displays two remarkable photographs.  The first depicts young, unarmed Palestinians fleeing in terror as, high above, an Israeli rocket streaks toward buildings inside Gaza.  The second depicts a massive explosion, as one young Palestinian covers his head with his bare arms, surrounded by smoke and flying debris.

Far too many have died on both sides over the past sixty years, and for what?  I am not a religious man, but I do firmly ascribe to the notion that violence begets violence. 

Emphraim “Lefty” Pesach’s pathological rants, and history, reveal that the world cannot afford to permit an amoral, racist movement to go unchecked.  Israel’s illegal occupation must end.  The targeting of innocent civilians on either side must stop.  Israel must begin to abide by the rule of law in general and UN Resolution 242 in particular.  And the people of both Israel and Palestine must be given the opportunity to peacefully co-exist.

Report this

By lilmamzer, May 26, 2007 at 8:00 am Link to this comment

Fadel Abdallah - you write:
“I am wondering if Truthdig editors are aware of how this radical extreme bigot Lefty is abusing the privilege of freely writing on this site!”

Don’t you see the irony in your statement? Why wouldn’t you want someone to writefreely, even if the opinions expressed are anathema to your own? That is the essence of freedom of expression. Do you only want to hear echoes of your own mind?  Perhaps you are from an Arab or Muslim country without a tradition of such freedoms. It is a sign of a healthy and strong and open society to be able to hear all points of view without the reflexive need to censor. If you don’t like what you see on Truthdig, go somewhere else more to your liking. I find most of what’s on Truthdig to be ill-informed, bigoted, and dogmatic at best, but it comes with the territory.

Fight what you don’t like with ideas and discourse, not censorship and repression, Fadel.

Report this

By Fadel Abdallah, May 26, 2007 at 7:46 am Link to this comment

#72876 by Robert on 5/25 at 11:24 pm

Robert, what amazes me about this sick bigot called Lefty is the extreme venomous hatred he openly displays against one fifth of humanity- that is 1.3 billion Muslims which includes some 350 million Arabs, not to mention his hate for those non-Arabs and non-Muslims who express any sympathy or understanding toward the victims of Israeli brutality and aggression.

I am wondering if Truthdig editors are aware of how this radical extreme bigot Lefty is abusing the privilege of freely writing on this site!

Report this

By lilmamzer, May 26, 2007 at 7:13 am Link to this comment

Just continuing the primer for Tony Wicher here…......

Israel MEANS Jewish.

And real self-determination includes the right to preserve any essential character of a nation’s identity. Including, and especially, the State of Israel’s Jewish majority population.

Don’t like it? Too bad. Move to France…..where the French just happen to be enacting much stricter immigration policies in order to…..preserve the French national culture in their own homeland. D’OH!!!! 

There’s that pesky idea of self-determination again.

I wouldn’t dare tell the French they couldn’t or shouldn’t do that. That’s their business.

But somehow, Tony Wicher, in your imagination, Jews are less-deserving. There’s a name for that kind of attitude. It’s called bigotry.

Anyway, as we diaspora Jews like to say in expressing our millenia-old yearning to rejoin those fellow Jews who managed to stay in Israel over the generations, “Next Year In Jerusalem”.

Report this

By lilmamzer, May 26, 2007 at 6:44 am Link to this comment

Tony Wicher writes:

“Jews in Israel have the right to national self-determination AS Israelis, not as Jews. Arabs living in Israel should have an equal right of national self-determination, AS Israelis, but since Israel is a “Jewish state”, they obviously don’t.”

OK, you just don’t get it. At all.

Israel is the Jewish State.

It is not for you or anyone else to tell Jews they can or cannot live as free people in their own homeland. You. Cannot. Dictate. That.

Because, Tony Wicher, that is the essence of self-determination.

The Jews are a nation, more so than any other people on the planet, actually. All your wishing won’t make that fact go away.

Get used to it or not, it doesn’t matter. As we Jews say every day of every year (for thousands of years): Ha shana ha ba’a bi Yerushalayim” - May the next year be in Jerusalem.

Our eternal capital, the capital of the Jewish nation. Israel.

It’s not for you to say it ain’t so.

Get it now?

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, May 26, 2007 at 12:24 am Link to this comment

Ernest Canning, Peter RV, Tony Wicher, Fadel Abdallah:

After checking out what’s the latest on this forum/thread, I just started to wonder what would drive “lefty=ephraim pesach” to this level of racism, hatred, bigotry and madness. What were the levels of teaching ideologies, infections, zionist brainwashing has this warped individual received? Was it all done here in Brooklyn…New Jersey…Boston…Maryland…in these United States? It really is hard to comprehend who is responsible for all this & how long was the process?

What did Arabs, Palestinians, Arab/Palestinian/Moslem Americans do to this ‘deeply disturbed & twisted individual’?

One can tell that “lefty=ephraim pesach” doesn’t care for or believe in religion(s) or that God exists. One can tell from his comments he has no beliefs…I may be wrong, but that is what I see.

Here is one from lefty to Rowman :

“Rowman, I really hope you’re wrong about that. Because if it’s true, then such a god must approved, or perhaps perpetrated, the holocaust…god must have intended the tens of millions of grievous deaths associated with the black plague and HIV, god must have intended that Africans be kidnapped and enslaved, tortured and murdered for 400 years. If you are right, then the evidence that such a god is not a good god is overwhelming.”

BTW, “lefty=ephraim pesach” has a right to his beliefs.

Tony, I admire your gesture to “lefty=e. p.”, but I don’t think that this forum is the place that would “REALLY” help this guy. He is too deep into his racism, hatred, discrimination & his level of infection/brainwashing. It comes up to his eyeballs! He has been in it for many years! He thinks & believes that Jews & Jewish blood are superior when compared to Arabs & Arab blood.
He implies that Arabs are animals & should be kept in cages.

‘Lefty=Ephraim Pesach” needs professional help & it will be an extended form of therapy. Maybe he is on one or started…No one really knows!

One can tell that he is very secretive about his background…etc…It could be paranoia & other disorders…time will tell.

Just like you said Tony, maybe this is the safest place for “lefty=e.p.” to be “Crazy” and vent out his racism, hatred, Apartheid rants, anti-Arab/Palestinian/Moslems vile and not to worry that anyone from his contacts might see his outrage. No one can prove it from his posting name (lefty). He is just very careful about that.

Lets ask ‘lefty=ephraim pesach’ to tell us a little bit about his background if its possible for him?

I hope that “lefty=p.s.” is NOT a policeman in one of those big cities like, N.Y., Detroit, Boston…etc…where there is an Arab American population.

I just wonder what if he were a policeman, would he conduct himself in a professional manner if he stopped an Arab-American for a traffic violation?

Would ‘lefty=e.p.’ follow his police dept. code of ethics when citations are handed to Arab-Americans?

Would “lefty=e.p.” club an Arab-American driver if the driver talked back & said I was not speeding officer!

‘Lefty=ephraim pesach” ...Can Arab-Americans & their children trust you?

Anyway, this guy is used to all kinds of deserved humiliating responses. One can follow his rants & vile trails on several threads & see the data results.

Anyone with common sense, self respect & dignity will not put up with so many damaging blows. Those exposure lights are all on! He likes to dish out, but doesn’t like to receive it!

BTW, maybe ‘lefty=p.s.’ has read Joan Peters’ 1984 book “From Time Immemorial” and that is where he gets his information(?) in reference to the Palestinian people…Hmmm!

PS: PRV, it didn’t take long for “lefty=e.p.” to label you an “Arab Imposter”.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, May 25, 2007 at 8:12 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“Jews in the United States have the right to national self-determination AS citizens of the United States, not as Jews, and Jews in Israel have the right to national self-determination AS Israelis, not as Jews. Arabs living in Israel should have an equal right of national self-determination, AS Israelis, but since Israel is a “Jewish state”, they obviously don’t. “

TW,
Please enlighten us as to which of the 22 Arab Muslim states follow the principle of self-determination you demand of Israel.  Which of them accepts non-Arabs and non-Moslems as full, equal citizens in a non-sectarian state, both legally and in de-facto?

By de-facto I mean that despite laws discrimination is wide-spread.

Since you are so concerned about non-ethnic discrimination, why are you so determined we act in Israel but not in the relatively nearby nation of Sudan? There the government is actively engaging in the most brutal ethnic cleansing of non-Arabs, even when they are Moslem.  Why are you not ten times as vehement for change and actions there?

I find you continued tunnel vision irritating.  If the Jews in Israel should be forced to this state, which you have advocated, why is it you don’t want to put the same pressure on Sudan, or Saudi Arabia, or Syria, or Libya, or Yemen, or even Egypt?

Until I see a satisfactory answer, I’m afraid I am forced to agree with LilMamzer’s and even Lefty’s evaluation of your position, though I wouldn’t express it so extremely.  It’s simply the only rational conclusion that can be reached.

As for some of the others, all they do is heap abuse on anyone defending Israel’s right to exist.  While I support that right to exist, I do not necessarily support Israel’s tactics, especially in recent years.  Internal politics and fear of Israel’s own nutty right (Benjamin What-a-Yahoo’s party) has driven much common sense out of recent governments, including the current one.

We should be sympathetic. Our own government is now actually run by the extreme right wing kooks not simply forced to bend to them as in Israel. With George Bush and Dick Chaney, and Karl Rove in the background, and Alberto Gonzales as AG, who are we Americans to criticize Israel’s leaders?

When each of the last two Democratic Presidents was in office, that situation came closer to peace than at any other time.  The best thing we can do is elect our own Democratic President who, while sympathetic to Israel’s security needs, will not blindly support every Israeli action, even when it’s blatantly stupid (EG, the War in Lebanon), but will actively seek common ground and understanding between the parties there.

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, May 25, 2007 at 2:01 pm Link to this comment

#72716 by lilmamzer on 5/25 at 10:18 am
(12 comments total)

Lefty, I hope you argue for the sport of it. The Truthdig crowd, led by Robert Scheer and Chris “Hedges, are reflexively anti-Israel and cannot be reasoned with. Enter this site and it becomes axiomatic that the Jews have no right to self-determination. From this monstrously unjust conceit comes all the absurd antisemitic tropes likening Israel to Nazi Germany, and so on. There is no rational discourse with someone who holds these beliefs. When someone believes you must, for moral reasons, commit suicide, what is a proper response?”

Lil,

It is axiomatic for me that Jews have no right to national self-determination. That is, this follows directly from the basic principles of democracy, as I understand it. The Jews have no right to national self-determination. Neither do Arabs, Whites, Blacks, Christians Muslims, or any other group defined by their cultural or genetic ancestry. Not according to the U.S. Constitution, anyway, which with all its flaws, and all the amendments I would like to make in it, I still take to be the greatest political documentin history and a model for the whole world. I just think the same principles ought to apply in Israel.

Jews in the United States have the right to national self-determination AS citizens of the United States, not as Jews, and Jews in Israel have the right to national self-determination AS Israelis, not as Jews. Arabs living in Israel should have an equal right of national self-determination, AS Israelis, but since Israel is a “Jewish state”, they obviously don’t.

Report this

By lilmamzer, May 25, 2007 at 11:51 am Link to this comment

From a recent Melanie Phillips article:

“People assume Israel itself was an artificial creation resulting from Holocaust guilt, when a load of European Jews were transplanted into a land owned for millennia by Palestinian Arabs. That itself is false. Israel was the nation state of the Jews centuries before the Arabs took it by force, and an unbroken Jewish presence remained in Jerusalem and other cities, some of which, indeed, had a Jewish majority. It is not surprising that people with perfectly decent instincts are enraged by the continued “occupation” of the West Bank. But they have been led to believe something that is not true.
  For a start, Israel’s occupation of this territory is perfectly legal and legitimate as an act of self-defense, after a war of aggression against it in 1967. But at a deeper level still, the idea that Israel had no locus in this territory until 19! 67 is simply false. This West Bank land was never owned by the Palestinians. Following the war of extermination waged by the Arabs against the fledgling Israel at its creation in 1948, Judea and Samaria - as they then were - were illegally occupied by Jordan, and became “the West Bank” as a result. Furthermore, and even more significant, Judea and Samaria were part of Mandatory Palestine, within which Britain was enjoined to re-establish a Jewish national home. Hebron, for example, is one of the four most sacred Jewish cities. Jews lived there continuously for some 38 centuries - Abraham settled there some 1800 years before Christ - until they were driven out by an Arab pogrom in 1929. To be told that Hebron is a place where Jews have no claim is therefore nauseating beyond belief.
  It is very important that people come to understand that Israel’s core claim is one of justice, and the way this has been misrepresented is profoundly unjust. Indeed, it is monstrou! s. There are those who believe that the vilification of Israel is a prejudice which is not susceptible to reason. I beg to differ. Much of this madness is based on profound ignorance. Only when people are taught the truth will the big lie finally be nailed.”

Report this

By lilmamzer, May 25, 2007 at 11:18 am Link to this comment

Lefty, I hope you argue for the sport of it. The Truthdig crowd, led by Robert Scheer and Chris Hedges, are reflexively anti-Israel and cannot be reasoned with. Enter this site and it becomes axiomatic that the Jews have no right to self-determination. From this monstrously unjust conceit comes all the absurd antisemitic tropes likening Israel to Nazi Germany, and so on. There is no rational discourse with someone who holds these beliefs. When someone believes you must, for moral reasons, commit suicide, what is a proper response?

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, May 25, 2007 at 11:14 am Link to this comment

Re #72605 by Peter RV on 5/25 at 2:17 am

“Ref.#72602 by Tony Wicher

There is no confusion in Lefty’s mind. It is an essence of rascist ideology to deny human character to those they want to exterminate. Zionists have gone even one step further- they deny even the very existance of Palestinians as people.( pushing this logic further- one can’t torture the people who do not exist). So, Lefty’s mentality accepts as a credo that those who resist his superior race are simply terrorists who came from somewhere else.Never mind that Israelis gathered there from all over the world,and that Israel has become also a refuge of every fugitive jewish criminal.( Palestinians from abroad are often denied even the right to visit their relatives). But how can dotty Lefty think ( if that is the “mot juste” for the mental process that goes through his head) when one of the Israel’s most popular PM declared:
“ There is no such a thing as a Palestinian people..It is not as we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn’t exist”
(Golda Meir’s statement to the Sunday Times 15 June, 1969)
There you are. It just remains to Lefty to figure out how terrorism can come from the people that do not exist. But, if rascists could think they wouldn’t be rascists, would they?”
====================================================
Peter,

I view racism as a social pathology, one which is passed down from one generation to the next. No one is born a racist, but people are conditioned to be racists when they are very young. It is an article of faith with me that man is born innocent and that human nature is essentially good. That applies even to Lefty. He needs therapy; he needs our help, not our contempt. That essential goodness of human nature still there beneath the racism may be the reason Lefty has stayed with this discussion for so long. Something inside him may sense that something is wrong and is really looking for the truth. I think no one ever quite escapes that “still, small voice” within. Lefty could be a good family man, a conscientious worker, well-liked in his community for all we know. He might be crazy in just this one area.

As long as Lefty continues to post, we can address him or ignore him or discuss him among ourselves as social pathologists. In any case, I think we should do so sympathetically and leave the insults and the vilification to him. As Robert says, he only convicts himself more with every post. We hardly have to add anything.

Report this

By cann4ing, May 25, 2007 at 8:27 am Link to this comment

Mr. Witcher, your astute observation that pre-Zionist Palestine was a place of religious diversity, a land of millions of native peoples and ancient culture now under the iron boot of the Zionists calls to mind another analogy—our own, where Americans of European decent carried out a sea-to-shining sea genocidal campaign against Native Americans and their culture under the racist dogma of Manifest Destiny.

Report this

By Peter RV, May 25, 2007 at 3:17 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Ref.#72602 by Tony Wicher

There is no confusion in Lefty’s mind. It is an essence of rascist ideology to deny human character to those they want to exterminate. Zionists have gone even one step further- they deny even the very existance of Palestinians as people.( pushing this logic further- one can’t torture the people who do not exist). So, Lefty’s mentality accepts as a credo that those who resist his superior race are simply terrorists who came from somewhere else.Never mind that Israelis gathered there from all over the world,and that Israel has become also a refuge of every fugitive jewish criminal.( Palestinians from abroad are often denied even the right to visit their relatives). But how can dotty Lefty think ( if that is the “mot juste” for the mental process that goes through his head) when one of the Israel’s most popular PM declared:
  ” There is no such a thing as a Palestinian   people..It is not as we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn’t exist”
  (Golda Meir’s statement to the Sunday Times 15 June, 1969)
  There you are. It just remains to Lefty to figure out how terrorism can come from the people that do not exist. But, if rascists could think they wouldn’t be rascists, would they?

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, May 25, 2007 at 1:20 am Link to this comment

Lefty said:

“But, once again, Tony, you prove to be so full of false premises that you cannot be taken seriously by anyone capable if independent thinking.  Let’s examine them, shall we:

1. “THEIR country” What country would that be, Jordan?  Before the Jews built Israel into the thriving, modern nation it is today, there was no country there, no sovereignty, nothing.  Putative palestinians are, in fact, Jordanians.”
=================================================
Lefty,

The trouble with this argument is that it confuses the idea of a modern nation state with that of a land where people live. Palestine was never a modern nation state. However, it was from ancient times a center of world culture. It was for all those years sacred to Christians, Jews and Arabs alike. So how can you say there was nothing there? There was something there all right, such as millions of native people and an ancient culture. These people have been disposessed of their land and their culture destroyed. These people to you are “nothing”,  the disposession of their land is “nothing”, and the destruction of their ancient culture is “nothing”. I call that “Nakba denial” (by the way, since you ask, “Nakba” means “catastrophe”).

Report this

By rowman, May 24, 2007 at 10:07 am Link to this comment

Lefty!!
I never thought I would agree with you on anything!!!

“What puzzles me is how some, who hold themselves out as rational, reasonable, liberals, can support, much less favor, irrational, unreasonable, murderous, psychopathic, religious-fundamentalist, jihadist, terrorists over an otherwise peace loving, civilized nation which seeks only to preserve and defend itself.”

Well said.

One might ask why the Jews have out lasted so many other oppresors… One might say it is because they are Gods chosen people and it is he who looks after them…

Report this

By Fadel Abdallah, May 24, 2007 at 8:01 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re:#72222 by Robert on 5/24 at 12:25 am
(26 comments total)
==========================
The first time I read a piece of filth written by this evil creature named Lefty, I envisioned him / her with two big horns on his ugly and deformed head. With the passage of time, I started to see a big tail coming from his back. So, what do we call that creature with two big horns and a big ugly tail? I bet you even low-thinking Lefty would recognize this creature when he sees himself in the mirror.

So, Robert, Tony Wicher, Ernest Canning, and Peter RV, leaving the Devil aside, may I suggest that we make a gentlemen agreement to ignore the Devil and not respond to his snares, for this is more likely to kill him consumed by his own hatred and disappointed in being ignored. It seems to me, as some of you suggested before, he thrives on the attention he gets when we respond to his rants directly. I will take the first step and ignore this Devil completely!

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, May 24, 2007 at 1:25 am Link to this comment

Tony Wicher, Ernest Canning, Peter RV, Fadel Abdallah, Nurit Peled:


It is obvious what “lefty=ephraim pesach”, a sick fanatic zionist, is attempting to accomplish. He is maneuvering to get out of that tight corner & away from that bright exposure flood light. One can see through his “sly & sneaky” tactics. His head is full hatred & yellow pus. It just oozes out of his frothy mouth. I’d bet you that he is the biggest backstabber with all his lonely contacts. He cannot be trusted. If this ‘ephraim’ is working, I just wonder what role does he play in that work area? Probably a nice easy going sly individual!

He is just trying to lure us to reply to his garbage & pure zionist lies. Let him sit out there all alone. That long bright “Jackass Tail” has been pinned to his exposed fat bare behind.

I can just imagine what ‘ephraim’s’ face looks like. It looks like a “huge pus filled abscess” the size of a soccer ball. ‘Lefty=ephraim pesach’ is a pure loner & one who is looking for attention & recognition for his sick zionist lies & propaganda.


This lying zionist bastard got exposed. He defecated in his bed & now he is sleeping in it.

The most aggressive broad-spectrum anti-biotic therapy will not touch his infected head.

Just Ignore him! He is used to this humiliating treatment. Someone else with any sense & dignity would not put up with all these damaging blows!

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, May 23, 2007 at 8:08 pm Link to this comment

Comment #72079 by Ernest Canning on 5/23 at 4:17 pm

Ernest…take a look at an excerpt from one of Dr. Nurit Peled-Elhanan lecture (June,2006) on “Racism & Education” in Israel.

“Nurit’s presentation highlighted racism instilled within Israeli school literature against Palestinians and the way in which they are not shown as modern, productive human beings - only as stereotypical scarf-wearing Arabs, masked terrorists, or third world ‘Oxfam images’ and refugees.

She discussed how, in educational literature, the world outside Israel is described as split between Jews and non-Jews and that by generalizing the non-Jewish population of Israel and Palestine as “Arabs” and referring to their situation as “a problem,” through photographs and text, they have been impersonalized and simplified.

Our children die because they are brought up to believe that serving as killers in a murderous army means to serve the good nation. They die because they are brought up on these concepts, of discrimination between blood and blood. On the belief that some people are deserving more than others”

I think that we read some of the above in “Lefty=Ephraim Pesach’s” ranting comments.

This just occurred to me… just wondering if Ephraim Pesach has a family, such as, kids. Just wondering if he does have kids, has Ephraim taught them that to kill Palestinians / Arabs is “a ‘mitzva’ (holy commandment) for they are ‘vilde hayeths’ (wild beasts).”? Has Ephraim taught them of discrimination between blood and blood, racism, hatred, zionism’s ideologies?

Ernest Canning…“You Dare To Speak Out”...We should all speak out and expose the diseases of racism from our society. WE should be like a swarm of “mad hornets” on people who advocate racism, hatred and propaganda. 

TRUTH & JUSTICE are with the oppressed.

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, May 23, 2007 at 8:02 pm Link to this comment

Re #72124 by Lefty on 5/23 at 6:33 pm

Yes, the Palestinians want to kill you, Lefty. But like the Arab Americans and we “confused, conflicted, putative, liberals” - and most of the rest of the world, I might add, we understand WHY they want to kill you. It is because for the last 60 years, you have been systematically been taking over THEIR country, kicking them out of their ancestral home. You said it was your country based on totally phoney biblical pretensions. Can you blame them fop hating you? Woudn’t you hate anybody who did that to you?

Instead of being a Holocaust denier, you are a Naqba denier. If you deny the Naqba, then everything you say is true, the Palestinians are nothing but crazy terrorists who hate you for no reason. That denial of the Naqba twists your perception of reality. On other issues you can sound like a rational progressive, but on this issue you are not rational. Have you read Ilan Pappe’s “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine”? Maybe that would help you to understand.

Report this

By cann4ing, May 23, 2007 at 5:17 pm Link to this comment

To Robert and Peter RV.  As usual, you both offer astute observations.  Perhaps a more accurate diagnosis would be paranoid schizophrenic.  When you turn to postings unrelated to the Israel/Palestine conflict, Ephraim “Lefty” Pesach can, at times, sound like a rational progressive.  But mention Israel/Palestine and he morph’s into someone who is to the right of Likud.

Report this

By Peter RV, May 23, 2007 at 2:36 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

To: Ernest, Fadel, Tony Wicher, Robert & Dr. Peled

I also had second thoughts about the usefulness of Lefty in our discussion.
He is really reminding us of the conditions under which Palestinians live. If we forget any instant the bestiality under which a whole people is being submitted, just imagine then Lefty as a guardian of a checkpoint somewhere near Jennin (may even be true). Imagine the nastiness and brutality this man could unleash towards those unfortunate enough to depend on his mood, to let them pass. Imagine the kind of treatment,a brute,convinced of his racial superiority, would inflict to those whom he considers as being Untermensch. Poor Palestinian families.
But, if Israel behaves like a bully and its soldiers as beasts,this is almost entirely the resposability of the U.S. which has given it a permanent “carte blanche” for its orgy of murders and destructions. The only thing left for discussion here is to define the origin of this infamous support, and, if possible, how to stop it.
There are roughly two interpretation of this.
The first is that the U.S. uses Israel to promote our own imperial interests (oil, routes etc) and that sometimes Israel gets out of hand, a sort of “enfant terrible” of the Empire. This is a very respectable opinion of Chomsky and Finkelstein.
The second thesis is of Mersheimer and Walt which assumes that the U.S. plays only a secondary role (of hired gun) and the real player is AIPAC (plus Jinsa,plus etc ,i.e. the famous “Lobby”) which decides what is in Jewish interest, which in turn overrides American interests, whatever these may be.
I am inclined to accept the latter.

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, May 23, 2007 at 2:08 pm Link to this comment

Comment #71636 by Peter RV on 5/22 at 3:28 am


“Lefty’s problem ( he wants to be a nazi and at the same time- their victim) might be a mental disorder which is notoriously difficult to correct, and takes time. Since we can’t cure him, as Ernest Canning suggests - he should be ignored.”


PRV… one wonders if this “Lefty=Ephraim Pesach” with “several mental disorders” does for a living. Can you imagine what this disturbed guy could do to someone who looks like he or she are from the Mid-East? Imagine if “Ephraim Pesach” were the cook or the waiter in a restaurant serving Palestinian parents with their kids that evening! Can he be trusted with their food? Imagine if he were the person putting put an Arab looking child who is about to have surgery to sleep during the operation. Can Ephraim be trusted with that process? Wow…there is that possibility out there!

I must say that “Ehraim” exhibited several mental disorders via his rants & tactics. I saw behavior that suggests that he was suffering from a Bi-Polar disorder, paranoia, schizophrenia, psychosis, and multi-personality disorder. It seemed that he also was delusional & had a severe form of depression.

Right now he probably feels cornered and exposed. So he is going into those “insults attacks” mode tactics to show us that he is still coherent & out there snapping at us and hoping to frustrate and drive everybody away. That is not going to happen…though!

PRV…your comments have jarred “Ephraim” psychosis state. He is forever branded & exposed to truthdig’s readers & commenters. He will be out there all alone…ignored!

“Ephraim Pesach’s” zionist ideology, infection, racism and hatred are his friends & worst enemies.

All that I can now is “Turn out the lights, your sick party is over Ephraim Pesach”!

PRV…take care pardner & many happy trails to you!

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, May 23, 2007 at 11:59 am Link to this comment

Re: #71822 by Ernest Canning on 5/22 at 4:41 pm

“If Falluja is the 21st Century Guernica, Gaza has become the present-day Warsaw ghetto.  Ironically, the children and grandchildren of the victims of a 20th Century racist ideology have adopted a racist ideology of their own.  21st Century Zionism has replaced 20th Century National Socialism as a scourge that must be challenged by the world community—before it is too late to do so.”

Ernest,

Actually “National Socialism” is a generic term. The German form ended in 1945. There remains the Israeli form. It’s ironic, all right.

As for Gaza being like the Warsaw ghetto, it surely does look like it. You are not the first to notice the similarity. A few months ago, in the comments to another Truthdig article, a man from South Africa responded indignantly to me and others who were comparing Israeli apartheid to that of South Africa, saying that Israeli apartheid was much worse.

Gaza is a prison with 1.5 million inhabitants, and militants crazed with rage are firing their pathetic rockets at their prison guards. The guards are ready to go in and put down the prison riot. This is the logical conclusion of Jewish nationalism.

Report this

By cann4ing, May 22, 2007 at 5:41 pm Link to this comment

From “Sorrows of Empire” by Chalmers Johnson:

“Guernica, a small Basque village in northern Spain, was the site Adolf Hitler chose on April 27, 1937 to demonstrate his air force’s new high-explosive and incendiary bombs…The hamlet burned for three days, and sixteen hundred civilians were killed or wounded.” 

The event’s modern significance is that the UN prominently displays “a tapestry reproduction of Pablo Picasso’s ‘Guernica,’ a “depiction of the atrocity,” which Johnson informs us, “is perhaps modern art’s most powerful anti-war statement”—so powerful that the US government took pains to cover the tapestry reproduction of Picasso’s “Guernica” with a large blue curtain in advance of Collin Powell’s prewar address.  Johnson states the “government decided…the carnage wrought by aerial bombing was an inappropriate backdrop for its secretary and ambassador to the United Nations when they televised statements that might lead to the bombing of Iraqi cities.”  [Pretty routine image manipulation for the Orwellian sociopaths of the Bush administration.]

In Novemember 2004 the US laid siege to the City of Falluja, an Iraqi town about the size of Cincinatti—the second such seige in seven months.  Independent journalist Dahr Jamail, who estimates that between 4,000 and 6,000 Iraqis were slaughtered, compared the seige to Guernica in an article published in London’s “Guardian.”  Ali Fadhil, one of the first independent journalists to enter the city some two months after the seige ended, observed:  “I couldn’t believe it.  The whole city is destroyed.  It was a big shock…I was here just before the American attack.  It’s hard to believe this is the same city.  Falluja used to be one of the modern Iraqi cities, and now there is nothing.”

Today, May 22, 2007, I watched Amy Goodman interview Zaki Chehab, a Palestinian journalist born in a Lebanese refugee camp.  As Mr. Chehab went about describing Gaza as a “small prison,” an area in which 1.5 million Palestinians are crowded inside a small 350 km area.  More than 70% of those 1.5 million are attempting to survive at below the poverty line.  Only a small percentage (some 10,000) are permitted into Israel to work. 

As I recalled the many violent incursions of the IDF, the bulldozers that killed Rachel Corey and who knows how many innocent Palestinians—men, women and children whose violent deaths go unnoticed by the outside world thanks to an AIPAC-friendly media, as I considered these people surrounded by hostile forces and the apartheid wall, I was struck with a profound thought.  If Falluja is the 21st Century Guernica, Gaza has become the present-day Warsaw ghetto.  Ironically, the children and grandchildren of the victims of a 20th Century racist ideology have adopted a racist ideology of their own.  21st Century Zionism has replaced 20th Century National Socialism as a scourge that must be challenged by the world community—before it is too late to do so.

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, May 22, 2007 at 5:04 pm Link to this comment

Reply to #71686 by Robert on 5/22 at 7:10 am

“Peter RV, Ernest Canning, Fadel Abdallah, Nurit Peled-Elhanan, Tony Wicher.

What happened yesterday was the results of persistent individuals working together to expose the TRUTH.”

We have exposed the core of racism in Lefty’s arguments. We have dragged it out into the open. Let us not judge him, for he has no doubt been indoctrinated with this Zionist ideology from the time he was very young, as we have all been indoctrinated in some way or other. It takes an education to get beyond the national to a universal human viewpoint. Zionism has misled millions of well-meaning people. Imperialist/Zionist propaganda has misled billions. 

Speaking to my fellow Americans, I say our country must not continue to support Jewish nationalism (Zionism) - first because it is wrong, and second because it is bad for the United States. Speaking in particular to Jewish Americans, this does not mean that I want the U.S. to abandon Israeli Jews to their fate, but that Israel must be willing to end apartheid and institute real democracy in return for U.S. support. Israeli Jews, who were smart enough and ruthless enough to spend a century getting themeslves into this mess (with a big boost from Hitler, of course) who have for a century planned and carried out the crime against humanity of ethnic cleansing on which the state of Israel is founded- the Naqba - these people must also be smart enough to negotiate a real democracy with the Palestinians without getting themselves massacred.  After all, they still have by far the biggest army and nuclear weapons. They can take care of themselves. But the U.S. should not support them, and should in fact lead a world boycott against them as long as they exclude the Palestinians. I think we should be calling our Congressmen and Senators to tell them this, because otherwise all they hear from is Zionists and imperialists.

Report this

By Peter RV, May 22, 2007 at 3:42 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Ref.#71714 Lefty
  Good tactics ,sir, insults might just be the right substitute for reasoning especially when one is cornered.
  Lefty, sir, may I draw your attention to the following facts :
  The subject of your most intense hatred, Palestinians, are under siege, starved (even forbidden to fish) and pennyless. How can they buy those F-16s, helicopters, bulldozers and anti-tank weapons, necassary to wage a sporty, civilized and elegant war instead of those primitive suicide bombings ?
  I suspect sir, those wretched bastards would love to get trained on these gadgets just as their Hebrew counterparts. Wouldn’t we have then a lovely clean and thoroughly civilized war without this bestial terrorism which so horrorize us? Why, I am sure, sir, that the IDF would be proud to show that it can shoot the real enemy instesd of those backward women and children.
  Some food for thought, sir,eh?

Report this

By Peter RV, May 22, 2007 at 12:07 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I am stil waiting for my comment on #71601 posted by Ernest Canning.

Report this

By lilmamzer, May 22, 2007 at 8:46 am Link to this comment

Robert, checkpoints getting you down?

D’ya think just maybe the Israelis were getting tired of being bombed out of existence by the Palestinian Arabs and, oh, maybe, decided on some NON-VIOLENT way to protect themselves and their families?

But I know where you’re coming from. The Israelis should dismantle the security checkpoints and just bend over and take the bombing they have coming to them. Resisting Palestinian Arab genocide would be rude. Fighting for freedom and self-determination is so vulgar, especially when it’s the Jews who are doing it.

Report this

By Peter RV, May 22, 2007 at 8:28 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Editor, where is my answer to #71601 (Ernest Canning) ?

Report this

By lilmamzer, May 22, 2007 at 8:19 am Link to this comment

So against this backdrop of official and deliberate Palestinian Arab government bombing of Israeli homes and schools, the august and learned Sari Nusseibeh, the best and brightest of Palestine, sits on his manicured hands and lifts nary a finger to stop the slaughter of the Jews.

Gotta love those Arab “moderates”.

Report this

By lilmamzer, May 22, 2007 at 8:15 am Link to this comment

It is absolutely critical to understand that what we have here is not random killing by both sides, or a series of senseless tit-for-tat reprisals. The Palestinian Arabs have elected Hamas as their government, knowing full-well that Hamas’s stated goal is the killing of every Jew in Israel. And they put that philosophy into practice every day. When they are not blowing up Israeli pizza parlors full of schoolkids they are blowing up city busses carrying Israel’s working citizens on their way home from their jobs. And now they rain bombs from the sky on Israeli homes and schools.

This is not a tragedy for both sides. It is genocide put into practice by Palestinian Arabs, who voted this agenda into their elected government.

If there is a tragedy, it is the moral corruption of the Palestinian Arabs who willingly choose a culture of death and war, teaching their own children via Mickey Mouse TV programs to blow themselves up as “martyrs” as long as they can kill Jews in the process. The end of the Palestinian Arabs will be their own doing, because Jews have a moral obligation to defend themselves against this madness.

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, May 22, 2007 at 8:10 am Link to this comment

Peter RV, Ernest Canning, Fadel Abdallah, Nurit Peled-Elhanan, Tony Wicher.

What happened yesterday was the results of persistent individuals working together to expose the TRUTH. Individuals from different backgrounds and all walks of life. I think that all of us want truth, facts, fairness, equal rights for all, justice and peace to all human beings.

What happened to “Lefty=Ephraim Pesach” was coming , and it was a matter of time. Peter RV, your comment & method was classic. The knockout blow, “a left hook”, was like a 20 pound sledge hammer. “Ephraim ‘Lefty’ Pesach” never saw that left hook coming. He was running around with a “noose” around his neck. I kept giving him extensions to that rope till he finally ran over a cliff & hung himself.

Each one of you contributed to his current situation, but I believe that Dr. Nurit Peled-Elhanan also exposed the infections & zionism ideology’s demons that afflicted “Lefty=Ephraim Pesach”.

“But who would ever blame Judaism for murder? And yet, Ultra Orthodox Jewish children who have never left Brooklyn know that to kill Arabs is a ‘mitzva’ (holy commandment) for they are ‘vilde hayeths’ (wild animals). And Israeli children actually commit the crimes of slaughter and torture.”

You all remember what Ephraim said in one his comments about Arabs…belong in cages or similar. Implying animals. I believe “ITW” called him on that comment.

“Lefty=Ephraim Pesach’s” main goal / tactic was to label us as Arabs, propagandists, terrorists, ...and so on… hoping that truthdig’s readers will just ignore our comments & their contents. He was just beating those “terror” drums & attempting to deflect any criticism about zionism’s ideology & Israel’s Apartheid policies against the Palestinians. He surely was very deceptive & extremely sneaky.

At any rate, “Lefty=Ephraim Pesach” got what he deserved. He defecated in his bed and now he has to sleep in it!

Those zionism’s demons are going to haunt Ephraim for a long time. Arrogance, hatred, racism are all diseases. They cause mental crisis.

One more excerpt by Nurit Peled “All our children are mind-infected from an early age. So that by the time they are old enough to become soldiers…”

THE TRUTH IS THE BEST ROUTE. PEACE AND JUSTICE TO ALL.

Report this

By cann4ing, May 22, 2007 at 7:42 am Link to this comment

Robert, please complete the text of your very interesting comment.

Report this

By lilmamzer, May 22, 2007 at 7:36 am Link to this comment

Historian Michael Oren makes this astute observation regarding the current Palestinian Arab war against Israeli civilians:

“The Palestinians are resorting to terrorism to attack Israel, Syria is threatening to embark on a war, hostile elements exploit southern Lebanon as a base for launching attacks on Israel - and the world condemns any Israeli attempt to defend ourselves through revenge attacks. This scenario also describes the situation Israel found itself in 40 years ago, during the process that led to the Six-Day War’s outbreak.
It would be worthwhile to note lessons from the Six-Day War: Instead of rushing into battle, we should utilize the period of (relative) “restraint” in 2007 to make Israel’s case - we cannot sustain Kassam rocket attacks on a daily basis. And there is no alternative to addressing the source of the threat. In other words, we should be waiting enough time in order to strengthen, improve our just argu! ment, and prepare to thoroughly address those who stand behind the attacks - the Palestinians and Syrians.”

Remarkable because the parallel reminds us all that the Arabs of Gaza and Judea and Samaria endured the Egyptian and Jordanian occupation of those areas from 1948 through 1967, and the Arab war against the Jews that resulted in the capture of those territories.

Report this

By lilmamzer, May 22, 2007 at 7:32 am Link to this comment

Sari Nusseibeh is very, very quiet regarding the unceasing aerial rocket bombardment of Israeli civilians by his Palestinian Arab brothers down in Jew-free Gaza.

Here we have daily war crimes committed by Palestinian Arabs on a daily basis, and Nusseibeh says nothing.

Oh, right, he’s a “moderate” Arab. That means he won’t actually be holding the saber that chops off the victim’s head, he just won’t do anything at all to stop the murder.

Gotta love those Arab moderates.

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, May 22, 2007 at 7:07 am Link to this comment

Peter RV, Ernest Canning, Fadel Abdallah, Nurit Peled-Elhanan, Tony Wicher…Its been a long journey, but I must say that things do work out in the long run.

Allow me to tell you a little bit about me & about my background. My father came to U.S. from Italy & my mother was Irish. They both came to the U.S. in 1951. I have said all along in my previous comments that I was not an Arab nor from the Mid-East, nor any of what the “infected zionist gang” were trying to call & label me with.

I did not know much about events in the Mid-East and especially, the Israel/Palestine conflict till I read the book “They Dare To Speak Out”, by Paul Findley. That book started me to search for the facts & the truth. I started reading & not to rely on our main stream news media outlets as my main sources.

A few years after graduating from college, I got an opportunity to work as a consultant for an American company in the Mid-East. I worked in the Mid-East for 3 years. I found the people very hospitable, friendly and had similar goals & dreams as any other people in the world.

Several years ago my wife, kids & I traveled to the Holy Land. It was about 2 weeks before Christmas. We saw the Israeli side & the Palestinian side. There were huge differences between the Jewish neighborhoods / sections and the Arab section. One can tell were the money was being spent. It was not in the Arab sections.

We spent some time in Nazareth, Jerusalem, Bethlehem and other areas. We saw first hand the long lines of Palestinians at the Israeli IDF checkpoints. Israeli Jews had no problems getting through because of their marked cars with specific colored licensed plates. We could see the hardships the Palestinians were having. The weather was really cold in December & January.

We did meet several Palestinian families Moslem & Christian. We really did not feel out of place at all. We were welcomed into their homes with open arms. It really was sad to hear their horror stories in dealing with the Israeli occupation. We are still in touch with a lot of them to this day.

One of the biggest surprises that we saw at Tel Aviv airport on our way back to the U.S. was how the Palestinians were treated by the Israelis. It was really hard to believe. The Israelis are the masters & the Palestinians are at their mercy. It was pure deliberate racism. A lot of the Palestinians were just standing there and waiting for their turns to be processed through. The Israelis just took their time. That process, we were told, took hours. For Jews & Western travelers it was minutes.

I’ll never forget the sad looks on the faces of those Palestinians who were going through the worst kinds of discrimination & racism in the world.

This is part of my background, as an American, in regards to the Israel / Palestine conflict.

(Continued in next comment)

Report this

By Peter RV, May 22, 2007 at 4:28 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Ref.#71601 by Ernest Canning
Lefty has obviously been trained as a heckler which is, frankly, the only thing you can do if you are committed to defend the obviously morally indefensible.
At this stage, Israel’s actions can be justified only from the Nazi point of view.
Lefty’s problem (he wants to be a nazi and at the same time- their victim) might be a mental disorder which is notoriously difficult to correct,and takes time.
Since we can’t cure him, as Ernest Canning suggests - he should be ignored.

Report this

By Fadel Abdallah, May 21, 2007 at 9:49 pm Link to this comment

I have previously posted the following comment under #71582 by Fadel Abdallah on 5/21 at 6:19 pm. However, after a closer reading I found three spelling mistakes; therefore I am re-posting it with corrections. As a linguist, I always strive for perfection when dealing with language, though I am not the perfect human being myself!
==========================================
Well fanatic infected Lefty=“Ephraim Pesach”! I think it’s time to stop repeating this hollow, meaningless question about the so-called Arab children’s hate for your types! Enough reasonable and balanced human being, such as Tony Wicher, Earnest Canning, Peter RV, Robert, Nurit Peled-Elhanan and I have answered your hollow question in many different ways. In fact, the ball is squarely now in your terrorist court. It seems you are the perfect dumb, blind and ignoramus who does not respond to reasoning. However, I want to summarize all my comrades’ answers in one sentence: “It’s the law of reciprocity, stupid!”

Furthermore, if you’re a real man, just tell me where you live; and I swear I will go out of my way and come to teach you a real practical lesson on the reasons for hate, at least from the Palestinian point of view. I swear I will come to your place with just a little tent, a staff like that of noble Moses (peace upon him) and a few soft pebbles. I will pitch my tent in your backyard and wait patiently for your reaction. Then when it gets a little cold, I would try to invade your space inside your house. If you try to prevent me, then I would use my primitive soft weapons; the stick and the soft pebbles,… then I leave the rest of the story for your imagination, if you have any of that left!

Report this

By cann4ing, May 21, 2007 at 8:12 pm Link to this comment

One of the things taught early on in law school is the problem with argumentative questions.  Simply put, there is no way to answer them.  The classic argumentative question is, “When did you last stop beating your wife?”  If you had never beaten your wife, it is impossible to answer the question truthfully because the question assumes that you are a wife beater.

Let’s examine Ephraim “Lefty” Pesach’s oft repeated query.  Referencing most of the individuals whose posts disagree with his rants, he begins by asserting that all of us are “Arab propagandists.”  As I am neither Arab nor consider myself a propagandist, I can no more answer this than could the man who never beat his wife.

He next asks why we support “systemic brainwashing and training of [our] children in the dirty business of hatred, bigotry, terrorism and sucide bombing?”  I, of course, have never advocated any form of brainwashing and reject any form of hatred, bigotry, terrorism or suicide bombings.  In fact, for the same reasons expressed by Martin Luther King and Ghandi, I am convinced that violence is counterproductive to progressive goals.  I think the history of the past sixty years in the Middle East pretty much bears that out.  There are no military solutions for either side. 

While I do not personally know Fadel Abdallah, Robert, Peter RV or Tony Wicher, I am in a position to state that I did not see one word in any of their postings that suggested that any of these individuals are advocates of “hatred, bigotry, terrorism or suicide bombings.”  Instead, what I saw was an attempt at a purely academic dialogue on the relative merits of one vs. two state solutions for bringing “peace” to a troubled region of our planet.

Since there was not one word in the postings of these individuals or mine that suggests that any favor violence against any ethnic group, be they Jews, Arabs or neocon fools, one can only conclude that Ephrain “Lefty” Pesach’s misperception of the lot of us comes from within.  This entails the psychoanalytic concept of “projection” in which an individual with a warped sense of reality, in this case an individual who appears to have been indoctrinated by a totalitarian racist ideology (Zionism), then projects his own prejudiced motives onto anyone who does not share his narrow world-view.  (His level of indoctrination is so great that, in one posting, he appeared to be advocating a “final solution” for Palestinian children.)

This is why it is pointless to attempt to reason with him and certainly counterproductive to respond to his childish level of reasoning.  Indeed, I suspect that it would take years of therapy to straighten him out.

So let me make a suggestion to my fellow posters, even though I know it will probably set off another rant—Ignore his rubbish!  Don’t respond.  Perhaps in time, he will tire of talking to himself, and just go away.

Report this

By Fadel Abdallah, May 21, 2007 at 7:19 pm Link to this comment

Well fanatic infected Lefty=“Ephraim Pesach”! I think it’s time to stop repeating this hollow, meaningless question about the so-called Arab children’s hate for your types! Enough reasonable and balanced human being, such as Tony Wicher, Earnest Canning, Peter RV, Robert, Nurit Peled-Elhanan and I have answered your hollow question in many different ways. In fact, the ball is squarely now in your terrorist court. It seems you are the perfect dumb, blind and ignoramus who does not respond to reasoning. However, I want to summarize all my comrads’ answers in one sentence: “It’s the law of reciprocity, stupid!”

Furthermore, if you’re a real man, just tell me where you live; and I swear I will go out of my way and come and teach you a real practical lesson on the reasons for hate, at least from the Palestinian point of view. I swear I will come to your place with just a little tent, a staff like that of noble Moses (peace upon him) and a few soft pepples. I will pitch my tent in your backyard and wait patiently for your reaction. Then when it gets a little cold, I would try to invade your space inside your house. If you try to prevent me, then I would use my primitive soft weapons; the stick and the soft pepples,... then I leave the rest of the story for your imagination, if you have any of that left!

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, May 21, 2007 at 12:21 pm Link to this comment

Comment #71383 by Peter RV on 5/21 at 3:57 am


“But, your “questions” can easily be answered even by a ten year old, except that you won’t enjoy the answers.”


Peter RV…your respectful response to “Lefty=Ephraim Pesach” is what one calls ‘hitting the nail on the head’ with a sledge hammer. Now he will start calling you an Arab, terrorist, ...etc… just to deflect off the burdens of his current state(s) from all points…paranoia and other disorders. 

I told this infected zionist “Ephraim Pesach” to continue with his idiot questions till he reaches… 699. So I am “TELLING” him again to continue till the cows come home, but you already answered his “broken record” juvenile question & more.

Ephraim… “Education Or Mind Infection?” by Nurit Peled has lots of what is wrong with you & your likes. Anti-biotics will NOT cure your types of head infections!

Happy Trails!

Report this

By Peter RV, May 21, 2007 at 4:57 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Ref.#71356 by Lefty (aka anti-Abu)

Hate to interrupt you, sir, but shouldn’t you be considering a civilized discussion instead of a mouth-frothing hysterical monologue you seem to relish?
No wonder people don’t bother to answer your questions, overloaded with a verbal overkill, most likely a product of some “systematic brainwashing” you underwent yourself.
But, your “questions” can easily be answered even by a ten year old, except that you won’t enjoy the answers.
First, would you mind ,sir,if we supply Palestinians with F-16s, Blackhawk helicopters (those ,you know, IDF uses to take out “terrorists” and their families), bulldozers (to flatten out jewish settlements),cluster bombs (you know,those we sent urgently to Israel, when we thought they may run out of them in Lebanon), anti-tank weapons and -train Palestinians how to use these?
Well, sir, I assure you that would be the end of all Palestinian suicide bombings, but you would have a real enemy to fight. It would also be the end of the beating of people whose hands are tied on their backs.
What is your answer, sir ?
P.S. All the World has seen the pictures of some pretty little Israeli girls painting their messages on the heavy-artilery shells of IDF at the start of the Lebanon War. Very cute kids but what made them do that?

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, May 20, 2007 at 11:51 pm Link to this comment

“Education Or Mind Infection?”

Speech given at Connecticut College, New London, CT
        BY Nurit Peled-Elhanan
            09/27/06

“All you dead children were deceived, because your death has achieved nothing at all and the world goes on living as if your blood had never been shed. Because the leaders of the world keep playing their murderous games, using you as their dice and our grief as fuel for their killing machines. Because children are abstract entities for generals and grief is a political tool. Living at both sides, that of the victims and that of the killers, I keep asking myself, what are the means by which good Israeli children are turned into murderous monsters, what are the means by which they are so mind-infected as to kill and torture and humiliate other children, their parents and grandparents, and sacrifice their own life for nothing but folly and megalomania of their chiefs? In the so-called Western enlightened world everyone feels very well-founded when they blame Islam for suicide bombing and terror. But who would ever blame Judaism for murder? And yet, Ultra Orthodox Jewish children who have never left Brooklyn know that to kill Arabs is a ‘mitzva’ (holy commandment) for they are ‘vilde hayeths’ (wild beasts). And Israeli children actually commit the crimes of slaughter and torture. Neither Judaism nor Islam nor any religion for that matter are the cause for murder and terror. Racist education is. American imperialism is, and Israeli ruthless regime of occupation is. The women and children who suffer most from western violence today are Muslim women but racism has its way and the blame for their suffering is attributed to their being muslim.”

Click on link to read the rest of the Dr. Nurit Peled’s article on “Education OR Mind Infection?” :


http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0610/S00129.htm

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, May 20, 2007 at 7:35 pm Link to this comment

Comment #71258 by Ernest canning on 5/20 at 10:04 am

“Robert, Lefty’s irrational rant in response to your posting about “Let our children live” by Dr. Nurit Peled-Elhanan leads me to wonder whether he disagrees with the assertion that Arab children should be allowed to live. One wonders whether nut-cases like Lefty have in mind a “final solution” for the Arab population of occupied Palestine—a scary thoought, but consistent with my observation that he is hate-filled, blind adherent of a totalitarian ideology.”

Ernest Canning, lets let “Lefty=Ephraim Pesach” continue with his out of control fanatic zionist ranting. He is doing our difficult work for us. We cannot possibly look as credible as he does, when he represents the worst of the most consistent advocates of hatred, Apartheid, brutal IDF killings for his zionist ideology & Israel.

Let us just keep him stirred up, but let us not drive him away. “Lefty=Ephraim Pesach” is our guard dog, the snake pit by our drive way. The mad dog foaming at the mouth.

“Lefty=Ephraim Pesach” can show and represent our lesson & truth better than we can. All we have to do is remain accurate & factual. He will warp & distort the truth and malign the decency of Christianity, Islam, Palestinians, Arabs, and Jews who are on the side of truth and justice.

I want to see “Lefty=Ephraim Pesach” keep repeating that idiot & ignorant question that he keeps repeating over & over. I want to see him repeat it 699 times. He has a long way to go! Keep at it Ephraim…!

Dr. Nurit Peled-Elhanan lives in Israel & she knows what is going there. She knows that zionism is wrong and extremely deceptive. She sees the facts and the truth on a daily basis. She looks at Apartheid Israel in the face. I fully trust her & believe in her facts & clear messages.

NO DOUBTS AT ALL!

Report this

By cann4ing, May 20, 2007 at 11:04 am Link to this comment

Robert, Lefty’s latest irrational rant in response to your posting about “Let our children live” by Dr. Nurit Peled-Elhanan leads me to wonder whether he disagrees with the assertion that Arab children should be allowed to live.  One wonders whether nut-cases like Lefty have in mind a “final solution” for the Arab population of occupied Palestine—a scary thought, but consistent with my observation that he is a hate-filled, blind adherent of a totalitarian ideology.

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, May 20, 2007 at 8:10 am Link to this comment

One more excerpt from Dr. Nurit Peled-Elhanan article:

“Let Our Children Live”


“Last Wednesday morning, an Israeli soldier in a jeep in his village of Anata, on the West Bank, shot his nine year old daughter (Basam’s), Abir, in the head. The soldier will not spend an hour in jail. In Israel, soldiers are not imprisoned for killing Arabs. Never. It does not matter whether the Arabs are young or old, real or potential terrorists, peaceful demonstrators or stone throwers. The army has not conducted an inquiry in Abir Aramin’s death. Neither the police nor the courts have questioned anyone. There will be no investigation. As far as the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) are concerned, the shooting did not happen. The army’s official account of her death is that she was hit by a stone that one of her classmates was throwing “at our forces.”

http://www.counterpunch.org/peled01292007.html
—————————————————————————

A WORLD CLASS DEMOCRACY…EH? FOR JEWS ONLY!!!

Report this

By cann4ing, May 20, 2007 at 7:22 am Link to this comment

re comment #71599 by Fadel Abdallah.  I think there can be little doubt that virulent racism provides the underpinning for many of Lefty’s rants. 

Where it appears that Mr. Witcher, you and I have not been so timid as to hide behind a handle, instead using our real names, “Lefty” seeks to hide his true identity.  Typical of racists, he projects his own distorted worldview on others who do not agree with his twisted views by assuming that Mr. Witcher and I are Arabs masquerading as Americans. 

It no doubt would come as a shock to Lefty to know that I am the product of mixed parentage, a British father and Russian/Jewish mother, who met, in all places, inside a Japanese internment camp in Shanghai during WW II—my father the victim of torture (water boarding).  We immigrated to this country in 1949, all becoming “American citizens.”

What individuals like Lefty do not seem to understand is that when you advocate a state in which first class status is reserved for a particular racial, ethnic or religious group (be it Aryans in Germany, Afrikkaners in South Africa or Jews in Israel) and relegate all other members of that state to second-class status, you innevitably create an undemocratic regime which will resort to increasing levels of repression so as to assure the privileged status of the favored class.

If you take the time to watch the movie, the Pianist, which accurately protrays the plight of Jews first being walled off inside the Warsaw ghetto and then being subjected to increasing levels of humiliation, degradation and ultimately annihilation, then fast forward to the building of the apartheid wall on occupied Palistinian lands, the bulldozing of Palistinian homes, often with men, women and children trapped inside, you cannot help but be struck by the irony that the one-time victims have now become the oppressors.

In a truly democratic society race, gender, religion or ethnicity should have no bearing on one’s status as a citizen.  But don’t bother trying to tell that to Lefty.  His is the mind of a blinded follower of a totalitarian ideology.  All totalitarian movements are driven by hate and fear.  In the case of the totalitarian movement known as Zionism, the object of this hate and fear is primarily Arabs.  It relies upon a seige mentality—“We’re surrounded by them!”  That fear and hate is then projected against anyone who would question the wisdom of the movement’s essential goal—in this case the creation and continuation of an apartheid state called Israel.  Thus, anyone who would dare suggest that all the residents of Israel and Palistine would be better served if ethnicity and religion were made irrelevant; if, paraphrasing the words of Martin Luther King, each were judged on the content of their character rather than their religion or ethnicity, is branded an “enemy of Israel.”

Like all totalitarian movements, Zionism will not tolerate “any” criticism, for criticism serves to expose the moral bankruptcy of its underlying, racist ideology.

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, May 20, 2007 at 6:42 am Link to this comment

“Let Our Children Live”

By Dr. Nurit-Peled-Elhanan

01/29/2007


“And in Israel, children are educated to fear, most of all, the fruits of the Muslim womb. When they become soldiers, they see nothing wrong in killing Palestinian children “before they grow.” But Basam and Salwa and all of us—Jewish and Arab victims of the Israeli occupation - want to live together rather than die together. We see our children sacrificed on the altar of an occupation that has no basis in law or justice. And, outside, the enlightened world justifies it all and sends more money to the occupiers.

If the world does not come to its senses, there will be nothing more to say or writeor listen to in this land except for the silent cry of mourning and the muted voices of dead children.”

{Dr. Nurit Peled-Elhanan is a professor at Hebrew University, Jerusalem. She is an Israeli peace-activist and is an outspoken critic of the Israeli occupation of the occupied territories / Palestinians.}

http://www.counterpunch.org/peled01292007.html

————————————————————————-

Here is an article written by an Israeli Professor, compassionate Jewish mother, and who is crying to Israel & the world about the killing of children, “before they grow”, in the Israel/Palestine conflict.

Jewish children in Israel, U.S. and other places are educated to hate and fear Moslems, Arabs…etc…

Israel’s brutal IDF can kill any Palestinian child   5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10,11, 12, 13 year old and NEVER spend one day in prison or worry about any court matters.

ISRAEL’S BRUTAL IDF JUST WALK AWAY SCOTT-FREE. ALL BECAUSE THE DEAD ARE NON-JEWS.

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, May 19, 2007 at 11:36 pm Link to this comment

Well, folks - there you have it. Israel is currently run by Leftys. The current gang over there is as corrupt as the Bush Administration. Standing in the wings over in Israel as head of the Likud party is the man with biggest balls of all - Binyamin Netanyahu. That man is truly beyond chutzpah. My question to my fellow Americans is: are we going to go on supporting this? In the name of freedom and democracy, yet?

Report this

By Fadel Abdallah, May 19, 2007 at 10:57 pm Link to this comment

#71050 by nahida on 5/19 at 9:33 am
=====
Kindly read the following response of Nahida, a dignified daughter of Beloved Palestine, to the ever fanatic and Zionist racist called Lefty. Also read her powerful sweet poem which is certainly more powerful than the Zionist’s weapons of mass destruction and their hatred, fanaticism and racism as best exemplified by this devil who calls himself Lefty.
======

Lefty said
“If the Arabs calling themselves Palestinians can do anything better than the Israelis, that would be propaganda aka lying.”

You know what we could do better than the israelis???
Unlike the Israelis; we haven’t lost our souls, or our humanity despite the massacres, the crimes, and the theft, the barbarity that was used against us to annihilate us and to ethnically cleanse us from our land.
******************

I Am So blessed

I am so blessed
Being a Palestinian
Being a refugee
For over fifty years
I am so blessed
I wasn’t in the tank
With an army uniform
Killing and destroying
To frighten people away
“It was a barren land”
Later on to say!
I am so blessed

Being under curfew
For most of my life
I am so blessed
I wasn’t with the army
Erecting high walls
Shooting at civilians
At every check-point
I am so blessed

Losing my father
In one of their raids
I am so blessed
That it was not I
Flying planes of terror
Firing that missile
Then Laughing and rejoicing
The mission was a success
I am so blessed

Watching my brother
Being taken away
I am so blessed
I wasn’t one of those
Kicking till he bled
From his nose and head
I am so blessed

Burying my baby
With a bullet in her heart
I am so blessed
I wasn’t that soldier
Who took a baby’s life
Nor was I his mother
Who welcomed him a hero
When coming back home
I am so blessed

Sleeping in a UN tent
Shivering in the freezing cold
I am so blessed
I wasn’t that settler
Who occupied my home
Justifying massacres
With a “PROMISE SO DIVINE”
Then, tossing and turning
All night long
Wondering what’s wrong
Haunted by his deeds
Searching like mad
For a long lost peace
Which he can’t find
I am so blessed

Holding David’s stone
In my little hand
I am so blessed
I wasn’t giant Goliath
With mass-destruction might
Seeing himself invincible
With no hope in sight
I am so blessed

Report this

By Fadel Abdallah, May 19, 2007 at 10:04 pm Link to this comment

(Continued from a previous message to Lefty!)

6. One final revelation that might knock your socks off. Israel has been fighting the Arabs and humiliating them using their damned own oil money. Let me explain: The oil rich Arab countries have untold billions of dollars deposited in American and European banks to the point that if they decide to withdraw these funds all of a sudden, the American and European economies will collapse. Many of these billions owned by the corrupt Arab ruling families are deposited without earning interest. Just the would be interest from these billions alone is recycled to Israel by the Zionist controlled financial institutions. But remember kido! This situation will not last forever; there will a future revolution forthcoming in the Arab-Muslim world when the corrupt Western / Zionist allied regimes will fall, and there would be sincere and free nationalist leaders who would bring about a corrective movement of history. Just pray that you and your fanatic racist types will not live to see that day!

Report this

By Fadel Abdallah, May 19, 2007 at 9:55 pm Link to this comment

Response to Lefty # 71033 on 5 /19

Congratulation Lefty! You’ve evolved from an ignorant, incoherent, fanatic and crude Zionist to a first-rate arrogant racist. You say, “their (Jews) superior intellect and ambition…” Hitler couldn’t be much prouder for the legacy he left in your person and those of your type. Having said this, I move now to refute other specific points in your latest rant:

1.“Israel is a first world democracy,” you said. To this I would say in the Palestinian Arabic dialect “TUZZ.” I know that you will itch to know what this word mean! So what?! Hitler was the product of a democracy. Evil Bush and Blair are the latest products of so-called democracies! More than half who ruled Israel in its short history were either ex-international terrorists or military personalities who had so much blood on their hands.

2.“Israel is a nation built from the sand up by the blood, sweat and tears of the Jews who are living there,” you said. Another Zionist propaganda about the sandy land that the Israeli marauders and occupiers made bloom. Even the Bible referred to the Holy Land as flowing with milk and honey. I don’t expect from a non-reader of history to know these simple facts!

3.“Israeli Jews are now on the forefront of science, medicine, technology, arts and music,” you said. I partially agree with this statement; however, this, in itself. is an indication that Jews get better financial and educational opportunities wherever they are than non-Jews and this, in turn, refutes one of the common historical Zionist propaganda that Jews are discriminated against and therefore they need their own exclusive state. If Jews are constantly discriminated against, then consequently they would not be able to be the achievers you talk about. I hope that your brain is developed enough to understand this logic!

4.“Conversely, the 350 million hostile Arabs surrounding the 5 million Jews on all sides would, but for oil, still find themselves living in the stone age,” you said in your latest rant. First, a historical correction about the 350 million hostile Arabs surrounding the 5 million Jews. You should be reminded that those Jews you talk about brought themselves from their natural surroundings in the world and planted themselves in the most unnatural and evil way among the 350 million Arabs you talk about.  Moreover, if you were a reader at all, then I would refer you to the huge library of books and references that documentthe great civilization the Arabs built in the Middle Ages when they didn’t have even one drop of oil. It is a well documented fact that Arab-Muslim civilization was directly responsible for bringing Europe from the darkness of the Middle Ages to the enlightenment of the Renaissance.

5.Ask more enlightened and less fanatic Jews than yourself and they will till you that the Jews reached their golden age under the auspices of the Arab-Muslim rule in Spain. Just one light reading, if you’re capable of handling it, “The Ornament of the World” by Maria Rosa Menocal.

(To be continued!)

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, May 19, 2007 at 8:40 pm Link to this comment

Comment #71009 by Peter RV

“Perhaps you could give me a better link”

Peter RV, here is a link that you can watch Norman Finkelstein presentations/talk regarding the Israel/Palestine conflict:

(Note: High speed internet is almost a must to watch these videos).

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=Finkelstein+Brandeis
————————————————————————-

Comments #71107, #71108, #71116 by Julieanna/Tony Wicher:

Excellent comments & I am not surprised at the information that you conveyed. It reflects your genuine intentions for universal humanity on this earth. Thanks for your messages.
————————————————————————-

Comment #71053 by “ITW”

ITW, your civility is appreciated. We are all bigots on this earth.

What do you think about Israel pulling back to the pre-June 1967 borders & UN Resolution 242, 338, 194?

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, May 19, 2007 at 4:22 pm Link to this comment

thank you—I (Julieanna, a friend of Tony’s who cares deeply about the Middle East and its cultures) wrote the comments which you found helpful and well-said.  I wish I had time to do more…  Tony is a great inspiration to my thinking as well as vice versa.  We discuss (maybe even argue points)—and importantly, try to see all viewpoints and get the facts, so that some informed conclusions can occasionally be drawn. 

MOST important - are the people actually living in the Israel-Palestine Region—they are the ones who FEEL most potently this conflict.  They are the ones who will be coming to peace within themselves and with each other, hopefully someday soon…

Namaste,
julieanna

Report this

By Peter RV, May 19, 2007 at 4:02 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Another attempt to send this comment

  Ref.Comment#71000 by Tony Wicher

Here is an intelligent answer to Lefty, Righty and Lilmamzer by somebody (TW) who knows what he is talking about.Why don’t these people argue with its content instead of hysterically hurling personal attacks? Do they realize what they look like, when the only thing they are expressing is a glaring hatred and impotence to make a discussion in a civilized manner?
Actually, I think, I understand the reason for their paranoia.
Actions of Israel, at this stage, are absolutely indefensible by any moral standard ( except nazi’s) and the “defensors” of Israel feel that. So, what they are doing on the blog is equivalent of the noisy heckling, they practice in auditoriums to prevent a speaker from criticizing the subject of their adoration. Here, of course, one can’t make noise and the only thing one can do, is writecontinuously rubbish, in hope to saturate the site or/and to intimidate those who dare talk sense.
What Tony Wicher says is exactly a common knowledge I was always taught ( except that I can’t express it so elegantly )

Report this

By cann4ing, May 19, 2007 at 4:02 pm Link to this comment

Two words sum up illmamzer’s rant, “twisted propaganda.”

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, May 19, 2007 at 3:32 pm Link to this comment

Reply to Lefty by Tony Wicher’s friend Julieanna

“Israel is a first world democracy.”

REPLY FROM A FRIEND OF “DIMWIT” TON.  WE NOTICE THAT NAMECALLING that you do IS DIMWITTED!  I AM VISITING TONY; WE ARE IN CONVERSATIONAL-CONCERT WITH OTHER ACTIVISTS FOR PEACE IN THE MIDDLE-EAST.

NOW, TO GET ON TO THE ISSUES, FROM JULIEANNA. 

YOU SAY THAT ISRAEL IS A “FIRST-WORLD DEMOCRACY”... MEANING A WESTERN-EUROPEAN/AMERICAN DEMOCRACY.  FIRST OF ALL, DEMOCRACY IN AMERICA IS DIFFERENT FROM DEMOCRACIES IN EUROPE; AND DEMOCRACIES IN EUROPE ARE DIFFERENT FROM THE STATED-“DEMOCRACY” IN ISRAEL.

ISRAEL IS A DEMOCRACY FOR JEWS.  THE PALESTINIAN GOVENMENT OFFICIAL (Azmi Bishara) http://www.merip.org/mero/mero010902.html —a member of the Knesset—was recently booted from his position and exiled from Israel for activities leading to TRUE democracy.  This means FAIRNESS TO PALESTINIANS / non-Jews living in ISRAEL. 

THEREFORE, THIS DEMOCRACY OF WHICH YOU SPEAK IS ONLY FOR JEWS AND THEREFORE BY THAT DEFINITION IS NOT A TRUE DEMOCRACY—BECAUSE TRUE DEMOCRACY IS FOR ALL PEOPLE living in a given State—

definition of democracy: 
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/democracy?view=uk

democracy
/dimokrsi/

  • noun (pl. democracies) 1 a form of government in which the people have a voice in the exercise of power, typically through elected representatives. 2 a state governed in such a way. 3 control of a group by the majority of its members.

  — ORIGIN Greek demokratia, from demos ‘the people’ + -kratia ‘power, rule’.

=====

WHO are “the people” to which this definition refers?  In the case of Israel, as seen by the outing Bashira, it is the Jewish People.  Mr. Bashira is considered (as the article says) a “threat” to the Jewish State because he questions the validity of a “Jewish State” as being a true democracy. The paradox is, just his passionate questioning of same has caused him to be ousted, hence he did not even have freedom of speech!!

Does the Israeli Gov’t allow Jewish Citizens to question the validity of a “Jewish State”? If it is an Arab who questions such, then he is ousted.  An example of a Jewish Citizen of Israel coming out against a “Jewish State” is Ilan Pappe who wrote the book, “Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine”.  He has not been ousted (so far?)  Thus, freedom of speech is respected only among Jews in Israel.

PLEASE THINK ON THESE THINGS—which point to the invalidity of a “Jewish State”—especially within another People’s Land!!  If the “Jewish State” was isolated on a separate island, e.g., where no other ethnicity lived, maybe there could be a “democracy” in practice amongst the Jewish population.  OHERWISE, however, as it is in Israel/Palestine region, there are other ethnicities living there, even in Israel, and they have fewer rights than Jewish People—i.e., are discriminated against, just as Azmi Bishara was, bigtime.

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, May 19, 2007 at 3:31 pm Link to this comment

Reply to Lefty (continued from above)

—-

your comments:

“Israel is a nation built from the sand up by the blood, sweat and tears of the Jews who are living there, which Israeli Jews are now on the forefront of science, medicine, technology, arts and music - a place that Jews, by the force of their superior intellect and ambition, universally seem to find themselves in any nation they live in.

Conversely, the 350 million hostile Arabs surrounding the 5 million Jews on all sides would, but for oil, still find themselves living in the stone age.  In fact, the only thing that Arabs seem to have any aptitude for is brainwashing themselves and their children in the occupation of hate, bigotry, propaganda, terrorism and suicide bombing, in every nation they live in.”


REPLY:

SO ARROGANT AND UNTRUE.  PERHAPS IF THE JEWISH PEOPLE/ISRAELI GOV’T WOULDN’T BE ETHNICALLY-CLEANSING TTHE ARABS, THEY WOULD BE MORE CAPABLE OF GOING BACK TO THEIR WONDERFUL GOLDEN AGE OF SUPERIOR ACHIEVEMENTS IN ENGINEERING, MATHEMATICS, ARTS AND CULTURE!  BEAUTIFUL, MAGNIFICENT HISTORY!!

Your comment:

“In fact, the only thing that Arabs seem to have any aptitude for is brainwashing themselves and their children in the occupation of hate, bigotry, propaganda, terrorism and suicide bombing, in every nation they live in.”

In short, the Israelis are the good guys, and the Arabs are the bad guys. 

REPLY:

THE ARABS ARE FIGHTING FOR THEIR LAND.  YOU’RE THINKING IN BLACK AND WHITE…NOT SO SMART IF YOU ARE A TRUE “LIBERAL”!

Your comment:

“The Israelis have earned and deserve the support of all civilized nations, and the Arabs have earned and deserve to be beaten down, and kept in their cages, until such time they evolve into complete, civilized humans.”


this paragraph = RACISM TO THE ULTIMATE! MEAN-SPIRITED, showing you do not understand the suffering of the Palestinian People—only own suffering.

TONY SAYS concerning your comment:  HITLER COULD NOT HAVE SAID THIS ANY BETTER. 

———

END.

Report this

By lilmamzer, May 19, 2007 at 3:13 pm Link to this comment

Amy Goodman IS a war-monger. Her unceasing support of Hezbollah and Hamas helps them perpetuate their war against civilians under the guise of htat leftist doggerel term “resistance”. Amy Goodman is the worst of the revaunchist post-Communist hangers-on. She will never be anything more than a fringe agit-prop tool. But it’s a free country and it’s good her stuff can hang out there on Pacifica for all to see and evaluate, and eventually tune out.

Report this

By Peter RV, May 19, 2007 at 2:02 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Ref.Comment #71000 by Tony Wicher on 5/19
  Here is an intelligent answer to Lefty, Righty and Lilmamzer by somebody (TW) who knows what he is talking about.
  Why dont they try to argue with its content instead of hysterically hurling personnal attacks?
Do these people realize what they are looking like, when the only thing they are expressing, is their glaring hatred and impotence to argue in a civilized manner? Actually, I think, I understand the reason for their paranoia.
  Actions of Israel, at this stage, are absolutely indefensible by any moral standard (except Nazi), and the defenders of Israel feel that. So, what they are doing on the blogs is an equivalent of the noisy heckling, they practice in auditoriums to prevent a speaker from criticising the subject of their adoration. Here, of course, one can’t make noise and the only thing one can do is to writecontinuously rubbish, in hope to saturate the site or/and to intimidate those who dare talk sense.
  What Tony Wicher says is exactly the common knoeledge I was always taught ( except that I can’t express it so elegantly).

Report this

By cann4ing, May 19, 2007 at 12:27 pm Link to this comment

Lefty, the topic of your previous emotional rant that I dismissed as “rubbish” was your effort to characterize this nation’s finest journalist, Amy Goodman, as a war-monger.  If and when you chose to abandon your childish emotionalism and at least make an effort at an honest and rational intellectual engagement, I will be more than pleased to provide a response beyond the word “rubbish.”  Your penchant for immature, personal insult reminds me of an old saw from law school.  “If the facts are with you, argue the facts.  If the law is with you, argue the law.  If you have neither, attack your opponent.”

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, May 19, 2007 at 10:45 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Lefty, you have posted propaganda as vile as Robert’s and I have to call you on it.

Arabs aren’t animals, though you imply they are. When Europe was in the dark ages, Arab scientists, philosophers, writers and artists were flourishing.  There’s a reason most of the stars in the sky bear Arabic names.

Furthermore, until the wars, Palestinians and Lebanese Arabs were the most educated and progressive, not to mention cosmopolitan in the world.

They, too, are victims.

We are watching the Arab world giving in to religous fanaticism and a desire for purity, even if it means burning out the heritics.  Curiously, this is happening after just over 1400 years of Islam—nearly identically to when in happened in Christianity.  1492 not only marked Columbus reaching America, it was the year that Spain expelled the Jews.  At roughly the same time, Martin Luther was rebelling against Catholic corruption and posted his 92 Theses in 1517.  As part of his “purity”, Luther was a vehement anti-semite, arguing Jews should be destroyed, their wealth seized, and their homes burned.

Now we see, at pretty much the same time in Moslem history, a repeat of the evil that befell Christianity.

But the weapon we have now that they didn’t is this: the electronic age and ability to get information around the world in seconds.

Yes, I think the Palestinians are victims, not so much of Israel, but of their so-called Arab and Moslem brethren, who use them as pawns in their own power games.  The ability to use propaganda to manipulate people is a universally human trait.

I have no wish to see the Palestinians destroyed.  I lament their squandering some wonderful chances for peaceful co-existence in their own state.  Isreal needs fair, defensible borders, no more, and Paletinians deserve their own nation, equally safe.

Your bigoted view of Arabs is no better than Robert’s, or Fadel’s bigoted view of Jews.

Facts, not lies are the currency of debate.

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, May 19, 2007 at 10:30 am Link to this comment

Ernest Canning, Tony, Forkboy

Its “Lefty=Ephraim Pesach” has raised his zionist fanatic head from the swamps of his zionist propaganda websites (honestreporting .com) & others. Ephraim Pesach’s website team are all zionist Israeli Jews who immigrated to Israel.

One can clearly see him standing on several forums/threads & fully dressed for the occasion. IDF uniform on/fully armed with his Israeli flag & Apartheid banners in each hand.

He has a sick tendency to keep repeating himself over & over. “Ephraim Pesach” just doesn’t get that NO body wants to respond to his “fanatic zionist trash” & frothing of the mouth. He was simply ignored on the previous threads.


Here is the TRUTH in a picture.

click to read & get the TRUTH about human shields:

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=1018

Report this

By lilmamzer, May 19, 2007 at 6:33 am Link to this comment

TW - you as, rhetorically, I presume, “What is a “nation”? If you imply that Israel is less deserving of sovereignty than, say, France or any other sovereign territory, get used to it. The Jews have a historical tie to our land that is as long as any other other people in recorded history. We have a unique language, a binding cultural heritage strong enough to have withstood millenia of persecution and genocide even as I write(look no further than Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah, et al) and to top it all off, yes, we have a reformed and progressive monotheistic faith that won’t ever demand that your head be separated from your body. Even though it would be tempting to make an exception in your case, I will refrain for the time being. You persist in making the case to subsume Israel in a sea of Arabs, yet your argument is as shallow as a mirage. That you single out the Jews and Israel for dissolution and disenfranchisement reveals you as a selective opportunist of the most transparent and disingenuous kind.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, May 19, 2007 at 5:49 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“lismamzer,
What is a “nation”? Does this word define an ethnic group, or does it refer to the citizens of a country, that is, people born and/or living in a certain geographical area? Take the United States, or France, or any other modern democracy. What makes one an American? The fact that one was born and grew up in the United States. It does not matter if one is white or black, Jew or Arab, atheist or believer. This country and all real democracies are “melting pots” where all ethnic groups mix and intermarry. If “nation” refers to an ethnic group, then the United States is not a nation. It is a country. If on the other hand the United States is called a nation, then the definition of “nation” cannot involve ethnicity. What is ethnicity? It is cultural ancestry. What makes one a “Jew”? Having been born and raised in that culture, and identification with he traditions of that culture. It does not matter in what country one was born. A Jew can be born anywhere. One of the essential features of democracy is that citizenship is based on geography, not on cultural ancestry. A country that bases citizenship on cultural ancestry is not a democracy. A government which bases citizenship on cultural ancestry is called “racist”. That is the definition. In the modern world, Israel is the only such country. “

Tony,
The very last sentence in this argument is simply totally false.  There are something like 22 nations in the middle east where being a Moslem is the only way to be accepted. In Sudan, that’s not enough. You must also be an Arab or face the worst ethnic cleansing since Rwanda.

It is your myopic refusal to recognize that Israel’s neighbors and most of the region engage in the very behavior you condemn Israel for the makes your argument untenable.

You cannot have it both ways. You cannot condemn Israel and ignore the Arab Moslem states engaging in similar actions.  When you demand that Egypt, Syria, Sudan, Saudi Arabia etc. give full and total rights to their ethnic minorities, that they engage in Western-style democracy, and that THEY allow immigration and naturalization, then, and only then will your arguments for Israel be morally and ethically consistent.

Until then, you will continue to be accused of anti-semitism.

Sorry, TW, you have to get over the hypocracy first.

Report this

By Peter RV, May 19, 2007 at 5:13 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Ref.#70995 by Robert
  I normally follow everything what Finkelstein says and writes, for it is obvious to me that this man tries to save Israel from its murderous follies.
His lecture at Brandeis I received blurred and unintelligible.
Perhaps you could give me a better link. Rgds,PRV

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, May 19, 2007 at 1:06 am Link to this comment

Reply to #70850 by lilmamzer on 5/18

“All those who simper and whine about a “one-state” solution ought to apply that flawed reasoning to any other sovereign nation on the planet. When Israel AKA “The Jewish Nation” is singled out like this, we Jews know precisely what is happening.”

lismamzer,
What is a “nation”? Does this word define an ethnic group, or does it refer to the citizens of a country, that is, people born and/or living in a certain geographical area? Take the United States, or France, or any other modern democracy. What makes one an American? The fact that one was born and grew up in the United States. It does not matter if one is white or black, Jew or Arab, atheist or believer. This country and all real democracies are “melting pots” where all ethnic groups mix and intermarry. If “nation” refers to an ethnic group, then the United States is not a nation. It is a country. If on the other hand the United States is called a nation, then the definition of “nation” cannot involve ethnicity. What is ethnicity? It is cultural ancestry. What makes one a “Jew”? Having been born and raised in that culture, and identification with he traditions of that culture. It does not matter in what country one was born. A Jew can be born anywhere. One of the essential features of democracy is that citizenship is based on geography, not on cultural ancestry. A country that bases citizenship on cultural ancestry is not a democracy. A government which bases citizenship on cultural ancestry is called “racist”. That is the definition. In the modern world, Israel is the only such country. Israelis cannot see this because they can only think of themselves as victims, but it is as plain as day to the rest of the world. Germany once based its citizenship on German nationalism, but they lost the war. Now that South Africa is a democracy, there remains only Israel as the shining example of this form of government. It is said that Israelis will “never” give up the idea of a Jewish state, so a solution is only possible that assumes this as a given. If, however, this is the essential cause of the conflict, the world community cannot accept Israeli intransigence.

I think everybody understands that the Israelis and Palestinians need the world’s help to make peace. It is obviously in the interest of the rest of the world to intervene, because this conflict is a destabilizing threat to the whole world. That is why I call for a real peace initiative by the United States, in concert with the United Nations, which will oppose Israeli apartheid while guaranteeing Israeli security, providing Israel will agree in principle to end apartheid and accept non-Jews as full citizens. This process will require years of negotiations; they need only accept the principle and begin, with the world’s help.  Let us see how intransigent Israeli people remain in the face of such diplomatic isolation. You say this will drive them into the arms of the extreme right. I say they are already there. They must be driven out of those arms by a united, non-violent but firm expression of world opinion that they cannot ignore. If their government is condemned by the whole world, as it should be, then perhaps they will elect new leadership and change their laws out of a decent respect for the opinion of mankind. If every country in the United Nations, including the U.S., condemns Israeli apartheid (as South African apartheid was condemned), will Israelis listen to extremists telling them the “goyim” are all against them? Or will their better natures assert themselves? I would like to believe the latter. Israelis might buy this - let’s hope to God they don’t - but you cannot suppose the entire rest of the world will be abashed into not boycotting Israel by being told by these paranoid extremists that it is “anti-Semitic”. This tactic of accusing every critic of Israel of anti-Semitism is wearing thin, including, finally, with the American people.

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, May 19, 2007 at 12:01 am Link to this comment

Comment #70849 by Peter RV on 5/18 at 10:36 am

Peter RV, your response/comment to “ITW” is excellent. One can see which zone “ITW’S” feet are straddled.

I just wonder if “ITW” agrees & supports UN Resolution 242, which calls for Israel to withdraw from all occupied territories, including East-Jerusalem, to its pre-June 1967 borders.

I noticed that “ITW” posted a comment “I do wish Righty would express his views more civilly, however. He is almost as rude and insulting as Robert, if that’s possible.”

Gee…“ITW”, maybe you were a bit harsh & rude to your zone mate… Righty !

For more detailed references to civility…etc… Righty’s & others comment track record, “ITW” can go and click on TRUTHDIG’S article/forum “Sheinbaum: Carter’s ‘Apartheid’ Mistake”. The forum/thread currently has 881 comments. Its all there for your eyes to see. There was NO civility from “Righty” and the rest of the fanatic zionist gang.

Peter RV, if you watched & heard Finkelstein analysis, facts basis, international law, UN Resolutions… he states that there is a way to resolve the Israel/Palestine conflict. Its really not that complicated based on International Law & UN Resolutions.

The TRUTH is the best route!

Report this

By lilmamzer, May 18, 2007 at 11:41 am Link to this comment

All those who simper and whine about a “one-state” solution ought to apply that flawed reasoning to any other sovereign nation on the planet. When Israel AKA “The Jewish Nation” is singled out like this, we Jews know precisely what is happening. Why not combine Mexico and the USA? ~poof~ there goes the border problems and illegal Mexican immigration. It’s idiotic and flat-out bigoted to deny the right of the Jewish nation self-determination. Of course, the world would more than make up for the extermination of the gift of the Jews to the world by the addition of a 23rd and doubtlessly failed Arab and Islamic state. As if we need another one of those.

Report this

By Peter RV, May 18, 2007 at 11:36 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Ref #70766 Inherit the Wind
If five million of Jews are in “mortal danger"of being overwhelmed by Arabs in a common state, as you state, then some questions are in order.
First, who put them in such a mortal danger if not their own murderous policies (since 1948)towards their Arab neighbours: Arabs are also like most of other people, if you keep killing them and taking their property you can’t expect them to love you.
Declaring them terrorists and continuing to opress them will hardly change their attitude.
Second, if “mortal” means that Israel would become a non-religious state, so what? Jews have adapted themselves very successfully among other nations and religions during centuries. Exemples? Iran, Iraq and the rest of the Arab countries.
Third, what Israel “won’t accept” is becoming more and more irrelevant facing the awakening of the Muslim giant. Do you really believe that the U.S. support for Israel will last forever? Or, that we will rather face our own extinction than to permit that Israel becomes a multi-national state? Finally, do you really believe that Israel is getting stronger and the Arabs weaker?
  Just looking at the map, considering Arab demographic explosion and the state of growing anger among the Moslim masses, should convince even a fool that any military success of Israel can’t be more than ephimeral, a prelude for a much greater collision from which Israel can’t possibly come out well.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, May 18, 2007 at 4:32 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Righty is merely expressing frustration with TW’s continuing to espouse a position that is mortally dangerous to 5 million Jews in Israel despite all the facts showing that it cannot and will not work.

Jews tend to be rather hostile to plans that put millions of their lives at risk.  Actually, most people are that way.

I do wish Righty would express his views more civilly, however.  He is almost as rude and insulting as Robert, if that’s possible.

Report this

By cann4ing, May 17, 2007 at 9:34 pm Link to this comment

Righty, stop with the “jew hater” rubbish.  The political question posed by Mr. Wicher is a perfectly valid one that has absolutely nothing to do with anti-semitism.  Can a nation be considered “democratic” if a major segment of the population—perhaps a majority if your view is correct—is relegated to second-class status?  While Mr. Wicher would prefer a one-state solution, he is not adverse to the two-state solution embodied in UN Resolution 242.  In his words, “whatever will bring peace.” 

Whether a one-state or a two-state solution is adopted ought properly be left to the people residing in Israel and Palestine, the vast majority of whom I suspect would choose peace rather than apartheid if the decision were ever placed in their hands rather than the greedy mits of the Israeli ruling class, AIPAC and the American fundamentalist Christian/military-industrial complex.

Report this

By Righty, May 17, 2007 at 3:22 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Wicher is at it again on another forum.
The JEW HATER is starting his garbage here about his one state solution to get rid of Israel.
One state solution means no more Israel.
In his plan the arab population will eventually outnumber the Jews and take power in a one man one vote democracy.
The Jewish majority must be preserved or the JEWS will be oppressed in their own country by the majority arab population.
The Arabs have 22 Islamic regimes. There is no reason why the Jews cannot have their own democratic state.
NEVER AGAIN!

Report this

By Forkboy, May 17, 2007 at 8:45 am Link to this comment

Comment 70510 by by Robert on 5/16 at 11:25 pm

Thank you for both the heads up regarding Lefty as well as the link.  I certainly believe we, the U.S., have far more in common with the state of Israel, but I’m not blind to actions by the Israeli government that I consider (as does the U.N.) to be unfair, illegal, etc.  Not agreeing with anything and everything done by an ally does not make me a Jew hater; just honest.

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, May 17, 2007 at 12:25 am Link to this comment

Comment #70420 by Forkboy on 5/16 at 2:17pm


Have you heard and/or watched Norman Finkelstein recent presentation on Israel/Palestine conflict at Brandeis University. Its a 3 part video. The 3rd part is a Q/A session. Finkelstein is a brilliant scholar who has that genuine moral courage & TRUTH.

Here is the link to Finkelstein’s presentation:

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=1017


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
BTW, just some plain advice regarding the commenter (Lefty) which you mentioned in your response/comment; this commenter has a well known trail/record of zionist propaganda on truthdig.

He got exposed the other day on one of the threads relating to the well known liar…Wolfowitz.

Lefty has a “NEW” zionist name “Ephraim Pesach”. He has been referring to one of his favorite zionist website for his references to the Israel/Palestine conflict. “Ephraim” will label anyone who critizes Israel’s zionism & Apartheid policies or sympathizes with the plight of the Palestinians as anti-semitic, Jew hater, terrorist…and so on…Everyone just got so fed up with ignorance & sick hatred…he has NO truth or substance. Everybody on the threads just ignored his sick trashy comments.

Hope that you’ll enjoy Finkelstein’s presentation/talk of TRUTH.

Report this

By Forkboy, May 16, 2007 at 3:17 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

From Lefty:
Several false premises, Forkboy!  I agree that the Palestinians are tools of the rest of the Arab world.  However, I completely reject any premise that the Palestinians are anything other than gleeful tools who relish the role of paid terrorists and suicide bombers.

As for a Palestinian state, I don’t think that such diabolical, volunteer terrorists and suicide bombers deserve to have their own sovereign nation.  However, with the aide of the rest of the Arab world (which will never happen because they hate the Palestinians and won’t even permit them to emigrate to their own countries), I don’t think Israel could prevent it.

My reply:

First, thank you for posting a reply to my comment.  It’s nice to have others respond to such. 

Second, I cannot honesty believe that all Palestinians are as you portray: terrorists only.  Some are certainly terrorists who will only be happy with the destruction of Israel.  I believe many are sympathetic to the cause of the radicals in their territories (as evidenced by how they allow Hammas, etc. to do their terrorist-work amongst them (and then bitch when they get hurt/killed by IDFs: assholes)).  But I genuinely believe that most Palestinians want peace and a constructive relationship with Israel. 

I too feel that the Arab world could take in the Palestinians, but they don’t want them any more than some Israeli’s do.  The latest violence in the territories between Fatah and Hammas only shows how unstable these people are in the first place.  Who WOULD want to bring them into their nation?  But the Palestinians have as much of a historical right to these territories as do the Israeli’s. 

As such I stand by what I said:  the Palestinians must realize how they are simply pawns in the Arab world’s work against Israel and that radical elements within themselves must be purged.  But perhaps it is too late to hope for this outcome since they elected Hammas to positions of political power.

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, May 14, 2007 at 11:25 pm Link to this comment

Reply to #69856 by Ernest Canning on 5/14 at 6:50 am

I am for whatever will bring peace, and I keep asking myself whether some form of partition could work, such as going back 60 years to the 1948 partition line with some additional land exchange as has been proposed, but somehow I find it hard to imagine. It is sixty years past 1948. I think it makes more sense to move on. Somehow it reminds me of Solomon and the baby. Cutting the Holy Land in two just doesn’t feel right.

Report this

By cann4ing, May 14, 2007 at 7:50 am Link to this comment

Interesting colloquy between Tony Wilcher and Inherit the Wind. 

There are really only two “legitimate” choices for Israel.  The first, a one-state solution discussed by Mr. Wilcher entailing a single, unified Israeli democratic state in which religion and ethnicity are irrelevant to citizenship and all that entails—the right to vote, hold office, etc.  The second is a two-state solution embodied in U.N. Resolution 242 entailing the dismantling of all the illegal Israeli settlements, the destruction of the abominable apartheid wall, a total Israeli withdrawal from the occupied territories and mutual recognition of both Israel and Palestine to co-exist in peace and harmony.  Either solution would bring peace, and, ideally, mutual trade and harmony. 

President Carter is right.  Israel can have peace, or it can have apartheid.  It can’t have both simultaneously.

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, May 14, 2007 at 12:50 am Link to this comment

Reply to #69770 by Inherit The Wind on 5/13 at 6:33 pm

I don’t want Israel to be “replaced by Palestine”. On the contrary, the way I look at it, Palestine is already gone. Israel has swallowed it. There is only Israel. Palestinians have to become Israeli citizens, or be ethnically cleansed out of the area. That means that Israel has no moral alternative to including Palestinians as full citizens in their democracy. The result will be a transformed Israel, an Israel that is no longer a “Jewish state”, but it will not be Palestine as the Palestinians knew it either. That is already gone forever. The result, if the process is managed well, would be full democracy - as it has been in South Africa. My admiration for Jewish people’s intelligence and resourcefulness is great. I believe they can do this, once they realize they must.

Report this

Page 2 of 3 pages  <  1 2 3 >

 
Monsters of Our Own Creation? Get tickets for this Truthdig discussion of America's role in the Middle East.
Right 1, Site wide - BlogAds Premium
 
Right Skyscraper, Site Wide
Right 2, Site wide - Blogads
 
Join the Liberal Blog Advertising Network
 
 
 

A Progressive Journal of News and Opinion   Zuade Kaufman, Publisher   Robert Scheer, Editor-in-Chief
© 2014 Truthdig, LLC. All rights reserved.

Like Truthdig on Facebook