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Palestinians’ Hard Choice: An Interview With Sari Nusseibeh

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Posted on May 3, 2007
Nusseibeh
bcm.bc.edu

By Jon Wiener

Sari Nusseibeh [right], a leading Palestinian intellectual and political figure, is a long-time advocate of a two-state solution and was the PLO’s chief representative in Jerusalem in 2001 and 2002.  He is now president of Al Quds University, the only Arab university in Jerusalem.  His memoir, “Once Upon a Country: A Palestinian Life,” was published in April by Farrar, Straus and Giroux.  I spoke with Nusseibeh April 30 in Los Angeles.

Jon Wiener:  What did the 2006 July War in Lebanon look like to you in Jerusalem?

Sari Nusseibeh:  It was totally crazy, an example of how wars can sometimes be totally useless.  In that war, the stated objective was to recover two Israeli soldiers who had been kidnapped by the other side, and today those two soldiers are still in custody.  The entire Lebanese people paid a very high price in the destruction and devastation of their country and their capital, and for nothing.

Wiener:  The Israelis did not win this war.  Would you say Hezbollah won the war?

Nusseibeh:  Hezbollah does say it won the war, but I would say both sides lost.  Because you have to look not only at the political party or leadership that’s carrying out the war; you have to look beyond that at the country itself and the people themselves.  And if you look at the people of Lebanon, I believe the war has pushed them back generations.  Destroyed their lives and livelihoods, their infrastructure.  I think it’s a war where two sides have lost.

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Wiener:  What effect did the July War have on Palestinians?  I’ve heard that the most popular figure among Palestinians is the head of Hezbollah, Hassan Nasrallah.  Is that true?

Nusseibeh: At the time the war was on, that was true.  Every time he came out on the TV screens he was always smiling and talking gently and always escaping the attempts by the Israeli army to take him out.  Every time the Israelis said they had managed to kill him, he would appear a day or two later.  So he really captured the hearts of the Palestinians and perhaps of the Arabs more generally—as a beaten people, as a people who have been constantly beaten in wars. He personified for them the ability to stand up to Israeli military might.  But perhaps since then things have changed.

Wiener:  The Israelis say “our soldiers were kidnapped by terrorists who crossed a recognized international boundary, 3,000 rockets were fired at our civilians, hundreds of thousands of our civilians were driven from their homes into shelters, what were we supposed to do?  Of course we had to respond.”

Nusseibeh:  You are describing events during the war, but those have to be separated from what happened at the beginning.  What happened at the beginning was two Israeli soldiers were taken prisoner by Hezbollah.  The very first step was Israel’s insistence that it should go to war to retrieve the two prisoners.  That was the first mistake.  Then other mistakes followed.  Clearly they were not prepared for and did not expect such intensive opposition and resistance from the other side.  It was totally unexpected. 

Wiener:  Some analysts say we have to see that war as a proxy war between the U.S. and Iran.  Do you agree?

Nusseibeh:  It was a proxy war between people who take positions very hastily and think they can quickly destroy the other side, not giving any respect for how strong they might be. 

Wiener:  Your book “Once Upon a Country” ends with the elections to the Palestinian Legislative Council in early 2006, that shocking moment when Hamas won a lot more seats than Fatah.  The Israeli right argued that this election proved peace with the Palestinians was impossible.  What’s your understanding of the outcome of those elections?

Nusseibeh:  That argument is very far from reality, in my opinion.  We know for example that these elections took place a year after the presidential elections following the death of Arafat.  In those elections, Abu Mazen was elected by a majority of the Palestinians.  Everybody, including the Palestinians, assumed that this vote was a vote for peace.  Abu Mazen, even in the time of Arafat, was the man of peace, the man who embodied the Oslo process.  But a whole year passed with Abu Mazen as president when the people who elected him did not see any tangible progress towards peace.  So there was a lot of frustration.  That’s the first point you need to understand.

Second is that when the elections were finally held and Hamas won, there was a problem with the people in Fatah who did not get together.  They did not run as a single party.  That wasted votes.  That was another reason why Hamas won.  If you added up the votes of all the different Fatah people who ran, I think you would find Hamas did not win a majority,

Wiener:  If we are listing the missed opportunities, certainly the Israeli failure following death of Arafat was one.  There is also the Israeli pullout from Gaza.  It seemed at one point that that might be the prelude to a broad pullout from the West Bank.  That didn’t happen.  The Israelis blamed the Palestinian Authority for failing to disarm terrorist groups in Gaza, which has remained a base for attacks on southern Israel.  What went wrong with the Gaza pullout?

Nusseibeh:  We have to go back to the beginning—and look not just at what happened after the Israeli pullout.  At the time, [Ariel] Sharon himself argued that this unilateral pullout was a step toward ending the occupation throughout the territories.  But Palestinians argued at the time that the unilateral nature of this pullout would enable some groups to claim that the Israelis were leaving only because of the rockets and the fighting on the Hamas side.  What was required at the time was a mutual agreement between the Israelis and the Palestinians. 

As soon as the Israelis withdrew, the Hamas people in Gaza declared military victory, the same way Hezbollah declared military victory when Israel withdrew from southern Lebanon.  They said “we pushed them out with our guns, and this shows we should go on fighting on the West Bank.”  What happened was the growing strength for the military wing in Gaza, leading to the situation we find today.  The moral, I believe, is that any step toward peace in the region must be mutual, must be reciprocal, must be agreed upon by the two sides.  You cannot make peace unilaterally, the way you can make war unilaterally.  You can only make peace bilaterally.

Wiener:  In your book “Once Upon a Country” your account of the 1948 war is different from the prevailing history in Israel and the U.S.  Our understanding here is that six Arab armies attacked the new state of Israel after it declared independence in 1948.  The neighboring Arab states rejected a U.N. partition plan that would have created a Palestinian state alongside Israel.  You don’t mention this invasion in your book.

Nusseibeh:  The fact is that these armies attacked.  The question is, what was the reason?  Why did they attack?  Was it that they attacked because they rejected the partition plan, or because some or most of them wanted to grab as much territory as possible, given the fact of the partition plan?  One Israeli historian, Benny Morris, claims that the Arab armies went in mostly in a land grab, to get as much land for themselves as possible.  I’m not sure, but it seems that people assumed Israel was going to have part of this land, and the question on the part of the Arab governments was whether this land was going to be given to the Palestinians to establish their own state, or whether we should step in and appropriate the land for ourselves.  This was primarily the motivation for their entry into the country at that time.

Certainly the Palestinians rejected the partition plan.  There is no doubt that they were very angry at the partition plan and did not wish for Israel to be created at the time.  It took them a long time until they came around to seeing that they had to accept this partition plan, and that perhaps the future can be better for themselves if a peace is worked out with the Israelis.

Wiener:  The biggest obstacle in any peace settlement, according to the Israelis, is the Palestinian claim of a right of return.  In 1948 your mother’s family was expelled from land that had been theirs for generations.  What do you tell your Palestinian comrades about the right of return?

Nusseibeh:  This is the most painful part of a compromise that has to be made between Israelis and Palestinians.  We have to think not only of the past but also of the future.  I’ve been accused of arguing that we don’t have a right of return.  That is false.  I think we have a right of return.  But we have other rights as well.  We have a right to freedom.  We have a right to independence.  We have a right to create a new future.  And very often in life the implementation of one right conflicts with the ability to implement another.  You have to make a choice.  In this case, I’ve been arguing with my peers, my colleagues, my people, that we must choose, and that, morally speaking, the best choice is to opt for the right to freedom, the right to independence, and the right to a new future.

Wiener:  You were an important figure in the first intifada, 1987-1991, which relied on massive civil disobedience.  The second intifada began in 2000 after Sharon’s provocative visit to the Temple Mount—that is the intifada of the suicide bombers. How do you explain the difference between the two?

Nusseibeh:  The first intifada was an explosion of frustration.  The challenge at the time was, can we turn this explosion into something with a political objective?  There were three elements that helped into making that explosion into a political act.  One was the existence of leadership.  We had that—it was called the Unified Leadership of the Uprising.  Second, it had a vision—the vision was, we want to lead all of this movement toward negotiations with Israel to create a Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as its capital.  Third, that intifada also had a day-by-day, month-by-month strategy to bring us to that conclusion.  That strategy was primarily civil disobedience, and that is primarily how I was involved in the intifada.  We succeeded in the sense that we finally were able to bring the two peoples closer to realizing that two-state solution was the only feasible solution, and indeed we got negotiations between the two parties.

With this latter explosion of violence, which began in 2000, I refuse to call this an intifada, because it had neither a leadership, nor a vision, nor a plan.  It was simply—in my opinion—a crazy expression of frustration and anger, totally useless, chaotic and certainly counterproductive, involving acts of violence and of terrorism that only brought ruin to the Palestinian people and to our achievements.

Wiener:  Does the recent electoral success of Hamas make you worried that you might have to live in an Islamic fundamentalist state?  What do you see as the future of Islamic fundamentalism among the Palestinians?

Nusseibeh:  There are two parts to this question.  The first part concerns what kind of state I would wish to live in.  When I have resisted occupation, calling for an independent Palestinian state, I really need a state that will respect my rights as an individual.  Will respect my freedoms, will be a lawful state where there’s equality, freedom of opinion.  I do not believe a rigid Islamic fundamentalist state would provide me with this, so it’s not the state that I have fought for, and certainly not the one I would want to live in.

But behind the fundamentalism, behind Hamas and its ideology, are the people, and it’s easy to reach out to the people.  You can never change the ideology itself.  The question is how big or small it is going to be in the general landscape.  I think it can be limited by reaching out to people, providing them with hope, with progress, with the ability to provide a better life for themselves and their families in the future.

 

 

 


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Robert's avatar

By Robert, June 22, 2007 at 10:47 pm Link to this comment

STATISTICS:

“The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the world’s major sources of instability. Americans are directly connected to this conflict, and increasingly imperiled by its devastation.

It is the goal of If Americans Knew to provide full and accurate information on this critical issue, and on our power – and duty – to bring a resolution.

Below are charts of nine little-known statistics.
Please click on any statistic for the source and more information.

Statistics Last Updated: June 14, 2007

Israeli and Palestinian Children Killed Since September 29, 2000

118 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 943 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000. (View Source)
 
Israelis and Palestinians Killed Since September 29, 2000

1,023 Israelis and at least 4,160 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000. (View Source)

Israelis and Palestinians Injured Since September 29, 2000

7,633 Israelis and 31,403 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000. (View Source)
 
Daily U.S. Aid to Israel and the Palestinians

The U.S. gives more than $7,023,288 per day to the Israeli government and military and gives no money to the Palestinians. (View Source)

UN Resolutions Targeting Israel and the Palestinians

Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none. (View Source)
 
Political Prisoners and Detainees

1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 10,756 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel. (View Source)

Demolitions of Israeli and Palestinian Homes

0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 4,170 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since September 29, 2000. (View Source)
 
Israeli and Palestinian Unemployment Rates

The Israeli unemployment rate is 9%, while the Palestinian unemployment is estimated at 40%. (View Source)

Illegal Settlements on the Other’s Land

Israel currently has 223 Jewish-only settlements and ‘outposts’ built on confiscated Palestinian land. Palestinians do not have any settlements on Israeli land. (View Source)”
————————————————————————

Here is the link the numbers, charts, sources…etc…:

http://www.ifamericansknew.com

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By Tony Wicher, June 17, 2007 at 10:27 pm Link to this comment

Re #78650 by jason on 6/16 at 7:50 pm

Jason,

I would have to say the Zionists (Israel) started the war because they came from somewhere else and conquered what was then Palestine, where many people had lived for hundreds of years. These people, who were of all different religions, are
called “Palestinians”. They said they had that right because Jews used to live there two thousand years ago. They took these people’s land, killed many of them and burned their villages. These people and their descendants are today living in refugee camps under Israeli military occupation; they are not citizens of any country, and they have no rights. This is not fair.

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By jason, June 16, 2007 at 8:50 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

hey im just wondering over here who started the war my school is starting this whole new love about this case and i just want to know who started the war?

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By Robert, June 4, 2007 at 6:34 pm Link to this comment

Comment #75301 by Peter RV:

PRV…Its time to move to the new report on “truthdig”.

Featured Report:

“Looking Back at 40 Years of Occupation”

By Chris Hedges


Guess who is over there on the forum with…zionism’s “carpet bombing”?


Its our familiar “zionist gang”...“ill-lie-mamzie”, ITW, and “lefty=ephraim pesach” at large.

See ya over there & lets convey the TRUTH !

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By Peter RV, June 4, 2007 at 3:19 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Ref.#75142 by Robert
  Robert,
Lefty and Co are in a state of extreme exaltation,  because they are not accustomed to assist to a discussion they can’t control by their heckling. It is not that they don’t know there is an opposite opinion, on the contrary, their problem is to prevent those from being expressed loudly that others may hear it.
(Just look what is happening, at large,in our sorry U.S.A.)
These are goons who have learnt history from some rabbis, who have also tought them that Palestinians are dogs and should be treated as such.
Lately, we have an overflow of their carefully studied cliches with an obvious aim to “carpet bomb” us out of existance. Difficult business to do on the Internet- but they keep trying.
Hence their increasingly rabid attitude.
It is unimaginable to them to ask themselves, for exemple, why Ilon Pappe could live among Palestinians but among Israelis- he cannot! (ditto for Norman Finkelstein).
Or, another unimaginable question. 
Arab Ligue has offered Israel full recognition and normalization of relations with all Arab States. The plan has been on the table for more than a year now.
What is Israel’s response? Silence. Why?
Well, there is an answer to that and it comes from the mouth of a brilliant Israeli journalist- Uri Avnery. He states that it has been an Israeli time honored strategy to derail any chance for peace by simply letting it die, burried under the rubble produced by subsequent staged provocations and incidents.
Israelis, obviously, have concluded they can’t survive the Peace.

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By Robert, June 4, 2007 at 1:48 pm Link to this comment

Peter RV, Ernest Canning, Tony Wicher, Fadel Abdallah & others:

“Lefty=ephraim pesach” has failed to introduce you all to his “zionist Israeli” team who are responsible for his favorite “zionist website” http://www.honestreporting.com

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

MEET THE TEAM:


-EPHRAIM SHORE (PRESIDENT) - IMMIGRATED TO ISRAEL 1998.

-JOE HYAMS (CEO)- MEDIA RESOURCE JERUSALEM.

-GARY KENZER (NATIONAL USA EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR)- TRAVELS TO ISRAEL MANY TIMES.

-SIMON PLOSKER (MANAGING EDITOR)- IMMIGRATED TO ISRAEL 2001.

-YARDEN FRANKL (SENIOR EDITOR)- STRATEGIC AFFAIRS LOBBYIST FOR “AIPAC”.

-SUZANNE HAVIVI (MISSIONS DIRECTOR)- IMMIGRATED TO ISRAEL 1990.

-PESACH BENSON (RESEARCHER, EDITOR OF BACKSPIN {THE HONESTREPORTING BLOG}, MOVED TO ISRAEL IN 1995.

So there they are. Just click on this zionist website, then click on ‘contact us’, then ‘Meet the Team’.

ITS GETTING DEEP…LEFTY-EPHRAIM…YOU ARE STILL PLOPPING THAT GREEN UPON GREEN STUFF…OF YOUR ZIONIST’S TEAM ‘special report’ malarky.

ITS BEEN A LONG JOURNEY…BUT ITS TIME TO FACE THE TRUTH. YOUR ZIONISM’S INFECTION HAS IMPACTED YOU SO BADLY. WE TRIED TO HELP YOU OUT, BUT YOU CAN’T EVEN HELP YOURSELF.

ZIONISM & IDF LIES UPON LIES…ARE FINALLY GETTING EXPOSED. THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE SLOWLY LEARNING THE TRUTH ABOUT WHO ARE THE “BAD GUYS” AND THEIR TRAILS OF KILLING MACHINES & STATE TERROR. ITS ISRAEL & ITS BRUTAL IDF!

HAPPY TRAILS…WATCH OUT FOR THE REINS!

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By Robert, June 3, 2007 at 9:06 pm Link to this comment

Comment #75037 by Peter RV:

PRV…Notice how our friendly zionist “lefty=ephraim pesach” , a “history compentent buff…Hmm?” , just does NOT even come close to Ilan Pappe’s history record / narrative on Palestine & the Palestinian people.

This “idiot” just seems to have herniated from all of his remaining orafices. What a damn shame…ephraim!

The repeated lies & zionist propaganda “bait” just did NOT work & no body was biting…your on-going green manure narrative piles on this & previous forums JUST DIDN’T WORK FOR YOUR DECEPTIVE GOALS!

Why doesn’t “lefty=ephraim pesach” try to convince us that he has more knowledge & or more qualifications on the topic(s) of history than Ilan Pappe?

Hey…ephraim…its time to tuck that tail closely to your ventral cavity & put and end to your green manure piles. Your stall is getting piled up & your space is collapsing on you.

YOUR GREEN MANURE PILES ARE GETTING TOO DEEP FOR MOVEMENT…YOU ARE GETTING SHACKLED BY YOUR OWN REINS !

You keep exposing yourself everyday…ephraim. Don’t you have any shame & integrity? Don’t you have any self-respect? Are you capable of telling the TRUTH?  Don’t you feel guilty that you have let your family & friends down with your massive lies? Are you capable of being rational?

Ilan Pappe has integrity. He has a PhD & he knows what he is talking about. The TRUTH matters to this educated person!

We all can see your stupid attempts to sidetrack the discussion of this forum. You think that you are clever & cute…eh!

When it rains, it just pours…ephraim! Your IDF/Israeli methods of lying just don’t work here.

The people on this forum know your kind very well.

LIES, LIES, LIES…DECEPTIONS…ARE YOUR WAYS OF LIFE!

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By Tony Wicher, June 3, 2007 at 9:04 pm Link to this comment

#75119 by Lefty on 6/03 at 6:33 pm
(170 comments total)

#75119 by Lefty on 6/03 at 6:33 pm
(170 comments total)

“In the mean time, Tony Wicher thinks that Israel should voluntarily merge itself with Arab nutbags like these who threaten to slit Arab news women’s throats for failing to wear prehistoric “Islamic” garb”

Lefty,

Why must you tar all Palestinians with the same brush? I don’t want Israel to merge with any Arab nutbags, but it might consider merging with that Palestinian newslady they were threatening, and she might consider merging with it, if it offered her freedom and dignity instead of treating her like a dog. Which would be a good thing for all concerned.

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By Peter RV, June 3, 2007 at 5:32 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

My comment #75037 seems to have been mutilated by someone

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By cann4ing, June 3, 2007 at 3:00 pm Link to this comment

Re multiple Tony Wicher posts re Dr. Pappe.  I don’t think one can criticize Dr. Pappe’s accurate historical assessment.  He is correct in describing the concept of a “safe shore” as one of the original motivatng factors, one which was given a major post-War impetus in the wake of the Holocaust.

One of the problem I have is his description of a second motivating factor—the desire to create “a Jewish, ethnically pure, democracy” within the boundaries of an already existing Palestine where Jews were a distinct minority.  A system that requires “ethnic purity,” be it Israeli apartheid or the originally founded U.S. in which each African-American slave counted as 3/5 in the U.S. census but otherwise had no civil rights whatsoever, cannot truly be considered a “democracy.”  The phrase “ethnically pure democracy” is an oxymoron.

With respect to a two-state solution, Dr. Pappe’s description of the manner in which the Israeli regime utilized it as a means to cover the “facts on the ground” entailing a ceaseless, brutal expansion into and occupation of Palestinian territories through the erection of Israeli settlements, the wall and all that followed is accurate.  However, the two-state solution envisioned by individuals like President Carter would be one in which Israel would be required to comply with UN Resolution 242, withrawing all settlements to Israel’s pre-1967 war boundaries, thereby creating a viable Palestinian state. 

While I agree with Dr. Pappe that an ideal and truly democratic resolution would include all Palestinians in the diaspora, I don’t think it is a realistic one given political realities.  The two-state solution proposed by President Carter, on the other hand, could be a workable solution if, and only if, the U.S. electorate one day awakened from their AIPAC-induced slumber.

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By Robert, June 3, 2007 at 1:17 pm Link to this comment

Comment 374948 by Tony Wicher on 6:03 am

Tony,

A great article by Ilan Pappe, a well known Israeli historian who received his D. Phil. from Oxford, on the history of Palestine & zionism. Pappe’s history details of Palestine & its people confirms what we have been commenting, for the most part, on this and other forums.

I would NOT be too surprised if our friendly zionist pals on this forum… if they would try to attack Pappe’s scholarly record on history, and especially Palestine’s history.

Hey…“lefty=ephraim pesach”...here is your chance to tell Dr. Ilan Pappe about your zionist lies & propaganda. There is your chance to show your “stuff?”! May be you might think that you are more qualified on the subject of HISTORY than Dr. Pappe?

***************************************************


Here something that might be of interest to your scheme of things:

“Israeli Women Fight Back-Of-Bus Status”

By Brenda Gazzar   05/13/2007


“Five women in Israel are going to court to protest the way sex-segregated public buses are run in Israel. The arrangement serves the beliefs of ultra-Orthodox passengers but the women say it discriminates against other riders.”

Men in Front of bus. Women in Back of bus!

http://www.womenenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/3167/context/cover/

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By Tony Wicher, June 3, 2007 at 1:01 pm Link to this comment

Re #75020 by Lefty on 6/03 at 10:39 am
(167 comments total)

“These are the Arab psychopaths that Tony Wicher thinks that Israel should welcome with open arms, to live in peace, harmony and tranquility, for ever and ever. 

Maybe, in another 50,000 years, when they have evolved into humans.”

Lefty,

Thanks for this unabashed expression of out-and-out racism. But what is racism? Anybody can be a racist, and anybody can open his eyes and cease being a racist. Anybody’s thinking can be twisted by an image, a label, a stereotype. PRV suggested that a particular extremist Rabbi was representative of Israel Jews in general, to which IHW indignantly retorted that this man and his statements did not represent Israeli Jews. Now you are doing the same thing with some extremist Arabs, generalizing to all Palestinians. They don’t represent the Palestinian people either.

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By Peter RV, June 3, 2007 at 12:34 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Ref.#74950 by Tony Wicher,
Ref.#74920 by Robert and
Ref.#74896 by Inherit the Wind,
Until very recently the Zionist propaganda was carping on the fact that The Grand Mufty of Jerusalem went to Hitler’s Germany to help the Arab cause with the Nazies. A video even showed the Moofty patting the cheeks of young Bosnian Muslim SS-troopers in Sarayevo in a military review ( incidentaly, the SS-division was called “the Handjar”- the Dagger, which was sowing the terror in the Balkans until sent to Russia where it was finally
anihilated). So far so true, but this was incessantly used by the Zionists to justify the dispossession of Palestinians of their property and land.
  How many Palestinians agreed with this Grand Mufty
we will never know because the statistics at that time were practically non-existant. That was some sixty years ago. Palestinians remained, according to the Zionists, collectively “guilty as charged”.
  Nowadays we have Grand Rabbis suggesting, in their infinite mercy, that we should carpet-bomb the sinful Palestinians to the oblivion, for their collective responsability to stop some crude fire-work rockets reaching Israel from Gaza. And we are asked immediately to accept that all Israeli do not share the opinion of this Grand Rabbi, in spite of the fact that every surway in Israel indicate a lobsided majority in favour of treating Arabs in a most harsh manner.
  Well, what Noam Chomsky said, the Justice is either Universal or it is a complete Farce.
  The most popular politician in Israel is now Benyamin Nathaniahu. Yes, the same “Clean Break” pinnup boy of PNAC.
  Now , everybody knows that Palestinians are in the state of a most complete medieval siege. They are not allowed to come out of Gaza or WestBank, they are not even allowed to fish in the sea. On top of that our great humanitarian U.S. has exerted a pression on the European Union to blokade all funds to the Palestinians because they have elected democratically a Government not to Israel’s liking.
Palestinians are practically starving, the International Red Cross affirms it.
Do you know what Nathaniahu, the most likely next Israeli Prime Minister, proposes?
Well, to cut off the remaining water and electricity supply to Gaza!
Do we hear a massive protest from Israeli citizens, to this beastly thought? Do we, perish the thought,
imply that a carpet bombing should be applied also somewhere else for a collective guilt?

  Now

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By Tony Wicher, June 3, 2007 at 3:01 am Link to this comment

Sorry, guys - I got the Pappe article posting out of sequence.

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By Tony Wicher, June 3, 2007 at 2:51 am Link to this comment

Following is an article by llan Pappe in Tikkun

Zionism was born out of two logical and justified impulses. The first was the desire to find a safe shore for the Jews of East and Central Europe, after decades of anti-semitic persecutions - and possibly also a premonition that there was worse to come. The second impulse was to redefine the Jewish religion as a national movement, under the influence of “The Spring of the Peoples” in the mid 19th Century.
When the leaders of the movement decided, for reasons which cannot be detailed here, that the only territory where these two impulses can be fulfilled is Palestine, where nearly a million people already lived - this movement turned into a colonial project, which got its definite form after the First World War. Despite a wide Imperial umbrella - in the form of the British Mandate - as a colonial project it was not a success story. The settlers succeeded to take over a bare six percent of the Palestinian homeland, and to constitute only a third of the country’s population.

The tragedy of the indigenous Palestinian population was not only their being the victims of a colonial movement - but specifically being the victim of a colonial movement which sought to create a democratic movement. In face of the clear Palestinian demographic majority, eleven leaders of Zionism did not hesitate in March 1948 to resolve upon ethnic cleansing, as the best means - considering the failures of Zionist colonialism - to create a Jewish, ethnically pure, democracy over most of Palestine’s territory.

Within less than a year after the historic decision was taken, the ethnic cleansing was carried out - which nowadays the international community would not have hesitated to call a crime against humanity. Systematically, from village to village and from city to city, the Jewish forces passed and cleansed the country of its indigenous population. They left destruction and ruin in their wake: more than five hundred ruined villages, and eleven towns. Half of Palestine’s towns and villages were forcibly emptied and half of the counry’s population (eighty percent of the population of what became the Jewish state) were uprooted from their homes, fields and livelihoods. This crime was retroactively approved by the International Community and remained a legitimized means in the hands of the Jewish state, then as well as now, to ensure the existence of a Jewish democracy on the country’s soil. The achievement and maintenance of a demographic majority became a sacred goal, and it became also the basis for the two-state solution to the conflict. The International Community, as well as the Israeli peace camp, sought to limit the territory where ethnic cleansing and the Jewish purity would prevail. The Zionist minotaur demanded - and by force, gained - a full eighty percent of Palestine. But that was not enough: when the historic opportunity arrived to satisfy not only demographic hunger but also territorial greediness, it in 1967 swallowed the whole of Palestine’s land.

However, even when the whole country was swallowed, official Israel attempted to preserve also the idea of Zionist democracy. That is how such formulas were born as “Territory in exchange for Peace” and “Two States for Two Peoples”. These were not recipes for peace or justice to the two peoples, but attempts to limit an expansionist movement which sought to gain more territory without the Arab population living on it.

There are those who, from 1967 until now, believe that it is possible to satisfy this hunger to settle and create settlements, to dispossess and rule and stay democratic via the creation of a Palestinian state in twenty percent of the territory. For a short historical moment, in the first years of the occupation, it might have been possible. But already in the 1970s, the situation became more complex and there were created facts on the ground of Jewish settlement which did not make the desired limitation possible.

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By Tony Wicher, June 3, 2007 at 2:45 am Link to this comment

(Pappe, continued from above)

A decade later, in the 1980s, the two state mantra has also passed a metamorphosis in face of the changing reality. The Zionist peace camp sought to increase the number of supporters of the idea of limitation and assimilate the settlement facts created on the ground, and therefore it knowingly shrunk the territory of the -state- intended for the Palestinians. The more that the territory shrunk, the connection increasingly disappeared between the Two State formula and the idea of a fair, full and viable solution to the conflict. In the present century, the more that the Two States solution became a common currency and the number of its adherents increased - and the list eventually included Ariel Sharon, Binyamin Netanyahu, George W. Bush and others - the limitation became occupation. When the entire International Community adopted the Two State Solution, the occupation apparatus reaped a double benefit from the new reality.

On the one hand, under the umbrella of a “peace process” settlement was increased and deepened, tyranny and oppression were intensified - without an international criticism or sanctions. On the other hand, the creation of “facts on the ground” further decreased the territory which was supposedly excluded from the Zionist minotaur’s hunger. Under the idea of the Two States as a diplomatic international formula, it was generally agreed that the Zionist hunger for as much as half of the West Bank might be satisfied. Later, with the support of the entire Israeli peace camp, the Two State formula led to an inevitable, international support for the imprisoning of the entire Gaza Strip in a modern concentration camp.

The exclusive status given to the Two States formula, inside and outside the country, on the one hand made it possible for the official Israel to transform one form of occupation into another form in order to silence potential criticism of its war crimes - and on the other hand, it made it possible for the Israeli occupation apparatus to create facts on the ground which made the idea of the Palestinian state into a pipedream.

Look at it from whatever angle you choose. If justice be the basis for dividing the country, there can be no formula more cynical than the Two State formula: to the occupier and dispossessor, eighty percent; to the occupied, twenty percent in the best and probably utopian case, and more likely a ten percent which are divided and scattered. Moreover: the return of the refugees, where will it be, where will it be implemented? In the name of justice, the refugees have a right to decide if they could return, and they have the right to participate in defining the future of the entire country, not just of twenty percent.

On the other hand, if pragmatism and real politic are your guiding principles, and all you seek is to satisfy the hunger of the Zionist state for territory and demographic superiority, then let’s transfer Wadi Ara to the West Bank, and Hebron to Israel, and trust in the regional and global balance of forces and grant the Palestinians no more than a tiny piece of land, hermetically closed with fences, walls and barriers.

Yes, there are Palestinians in Nazareth and Ramalla who are willing to settle for even that, and they deserve to have their voice heard. But this is not enough, we must not silence the voices of the Palestinian majority in the refugee camps, in the diasporas and exiles, among the internal refugees and in the Occupied Territories, who want to be part of the future of the country which was once theirs. There will be no reconciliation, nor will there be justice here, if these Palestinians will not participate in defining the sovereignty, identity and future of the entire country. Reconciliation will be extended by including recognition of the right of the Jews who settled here by force to have a similar share in defining the future.

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By Tony Wicher, June 3, 2007 at 2:34 am Link to this comment

(Pappe, P. 2)


Let’s give the refugees their share and respect their aspirations to be partners with us in one state. Let’s check the practicability of this idea and of the road to it - because for sixty years already we have checked the Two State idea and the result is clear: continuation of exile, occupation, discrimination and dispossession.

It is wrong to propose democratic constitutions for west Beit Safafa, for Bak’ah Al-Garbiya and for eastern Arabeh - while at the same time shrugging off all responsibility for east Beit Safafa, for Bak’ah Al-Sharkiya and for western Arabeh, and saying: - They will be there, behind the Wall, oppressed, with no access to land, rights or resources. As Jewish and Palestinian citizens in this state we have relations of blood, of common fate and common disaster which cannot be ‘partitioned’. Such a division is neither moral nor practical.Following is an article by Ilan Pappe published in Tikkun

Zionism was born out of two logical and justified impulses. The first was the desire to find a safe shore for the Jews of East and Central Europe, after decades of anti-semitic persecutions - and possibly also a premonition that there was worse to come. The second impulse was to redefine the Jewish religion as a national movement, under the influence of “The Spring of the Peoples” in the mid-Nineteenth Century.

When the leaders of the movement decided, for reasons which cannot be detailed here, that the only territory where these two impulses can be fulfilled is Palestine, where nearly a million people already lived - this movement turned into a colonial project.

This colonial project got its definite form after the First World War. Despite getting a wide Imperial umbrella - in the form of the British Mandate - as a colonial project it was not a success story. The settlers succeeded to take over a bare six percent of the Palestinian homeland, and to constitute only a third of the country’s population.

The tragedy of the indigenous Palestinian population was not only their being the victims of a colonial movement - but specifically being the victim of a colonial movement which sought to create a democratic movement. In face of the clear Palestinian demographic majority, eleven leaders of Zionism did not hesitate in Mach 1948 to resolve upon ethnic cleansing, as the best means - considering the failures of Zionist colonialism - to create a Jewish, ethnically pure, democracy over most of Palestine’s territory.

Within less than a year after the historic decision was taken, the ethnic cleansing was carried out - which nowadays the international community would not have hesitated to call a crime against humanity. Systematically, from village to village and from city to city, the Jewish forces passed and cleansed the country of its indigenous population. They left destruction and ruin in their wake: more than five hundred ruined villages, and eleven towns. Half of Palestine’s towns and villages were forcibly emptied and half of the counry’s population (eighty percent of the population of what became the Jewish state) were uprooted from their homes, fields and livelihoods. This crime was retroactively approved by the International Community and remained a legitimized means in the hands of the Jewish state, then as well as now, to ensure the existence of a Jewish democracy on the country’s soil. The achievement and maintenance of a demographic majority became a sacred goal, and it became also the basis for the two-state solution to the conflict. The International Community, as well as the Israeli peace camp, sought to limit the territory where ethnic cleansing and the Jewish purity would prevail. The Zionist minotaur demanded - and by force, gained - a full eighty percent of Palestine. But that was not enough: when the historic opportunity arrived to satisfy not only demographic hunger but also territorial greediness, it in 1967 swallowed the whole of Palestine’s land.

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By Tony Wicher, June 3, 2007 at 2:28 am Link to this comment

(Ilan Pappe article P. 3 continued from above)

Our political elites are incompetent at best and corrupt at worst, in all that relates to the conflict in this country. Those who accompany them in the neighboring countries and the wider world are as bad. When these elites masquerade as civil society and float the Geneva bubble, the situation only becomes worse and the prospects of peace move further away. Let us propose an alternative dialogue including the old and new settlers - even those who arrived yesterday - the expelled - of all generations - and the people who were left behind. Let us ask which political structure suits us - one which would involve and include the principles of justice, reconciliation and coexistence. Let us offer them at least one more model except the one which failed. In Bil’in we have struggled shoulder to shoulder against the occupation - we can also live together. Whom would we rather have as our neighbor, the Mattityahu Mizrah settlers or the Na’alin villagers?

And in order for this dialogue to start and grow, let us admit that despite our important efforts, we here with our own forces cannot stop ever-escalating occupation. Because occupation proceeds from the same ideological infrastructure on which the 1948 ethnic cleansing was erected, because of which the army massacred the inhaibitants of Kufr Quassem, because of which the lands of the Galilee, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip were confiscated, and in whose name there take place every day detentions and killings without trial. The most murderous manifestation of this ideology is now in the Territories. It should and must be stopped soonest. For that, no expedient which has not yet been tried should be rejected. The appeal of Palestinian civil society for imposing boycotts and sanctions should be heeded. The sincerity should be recognized of the moral pressure exerted by associations of journalists, academics and physicians over the world who seek to sever contacts with official Israel and its representatives, as long as the crimes continue. Let us give this non-violent way a chance to end the occupation. From here and from there, we will call together for the castigation of a government and a state which continues to perpetrate such crimes; Jews and non-Jews, we will be immune from the stain of anti-semitism, unjustly cast at us. From every possible point of view - Socialist, Liberal, Jewish or Buddhist - a decent person cannot but call for the boycotting of a regime and a government which for forty years already are mistreating a civilian population only because it is Arab. And decent Jewish persons must let their voices resound more loudly than those of others calling for action and effort.

Whether or not the South African experience is the source and inspiration for the One State solution and for a justified and moral international boycott, it is unacceptable that this way and this vision remain without a thorough examination, only due to a continued adherence to a failing formula which had ling since become a recipe for disaster.

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By Robert, June 3, 2007 at 12:33 am Link to this comment

Comment #74817 by Peter RV on 6/2 at 10:22 am

“Hatred is a strategic weapon in the hands of the Zionists. The more of it they create, the more “reason” they have to continiue their murderous slaughter of Palestinian civilians.”
—————————————————————————

PRV…the fog has forever been removed from obstructing your vision of the TRUTH to the above matter & other zionist schemes.

I can relate to your position; I did not know any of what was going on in that part of the world. It was only when I read “They Dare To Speak Out” by Paul Findley, that is when that fog began to evaporate from in front of my eyes.

My trip to Israel & the Palestinian areas really opened the gates for me, the family, the neighbors, many friends at work. David & Gilda our Jewish neighbors have stopped talking to us because we showed photos & discussed what the IDF were doing & how Tel Aviv airport Israeli personnel were treating the Palestinians (Christians & Moslems). It was absolute “RACISM” of the worst kind. We told David & Gilda that it was the TRUTH & that is what we saw consistently during our 9 weeks over there.

Imagine, if we had about 30-50 “UNRESTRICTED” video cameras that were manned by Peace activists, Peace Makers, independent professional journalists & camera staff at those Israeli roadblocks/check points. What do you think we will see on our TV’s, computers, Internet, YouTube & others? I can guarantee you that 99% of Israel’s IDF barbaric treatment & humiliation of the Palestinian people would come to a complete stop. Israel would NEVER allow this to happen. WHY?

The zionists & the Israelis would do anything to shield the “American Public/People” from seeing what is REALLY going on over there…in regards to what the IDF are doing. They don’t want the “American People” to see the Israelis as the bad guys. They always manipulate the news, the real story, the truth to portray themselves as “the good guys”.

IDF & Israeli police usually lie about the killings / murders of Palestinian children, un-armed civilians. They will lie in court, in their reports & investigations. But when someone, comes up with a video that was taken secretly & shows all the truth and evidence, then its all about a different strategy.

Take a look at “lefty=ephraim pesach” & his zionist pals on this and other forums. They would lie if they saw their “IDF” killers shoot a 9 year old Palestinian girl. They would just say, she was hit by a stone/rock from her fellow classmates.

As for “lefty=ephraim pesach” that considerate/compassionate zionist that he is…he would just place “a bandaid” on that gunshot wound to show his genuine care for “non-Jews”.

Their methods & tactics on this forum is very similar to that of the IDF, Israeli police/agencies. Lie, lie and lie…!!!

Sidetrack the issues, personal attacks…that same ole ‘zionist’ methods. They think they are clever & cute with their deceptions. One can clearly see the methods & abscessed skulls spewing hatred & venom.

PRV…keep up the good work & the TRUTH !

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By Tony Wicher, June 2, 2007 at 10:41 pm Link to this comment

Re #74896 by Inherit The Wind on 6/02 at 7:12 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

This fascist ultra right-wing rabbi is no more representive of the views of all Isreal or the Labor government than Ann Coulter (that nazi) represents the views of all America or the Democratic Party! 

To base your opinions on the shit this “rabbi” spews is to agree with the neo-cons that all Moslems think like Osama Bin Laden.  Or that all Americans think like Ann Coulter or Lewis Farakkhan.  The idea is inane and your reasoning is seriously flawed.  Do YOU agree with either Ann Coulter or Lewis Farakkhan?  I sure as hell don’t!

To judge all Israelis and supporters of Israel based on this vile person is, as you yourself put it, slanderous.
==================================================
Quite right, IHW - each Palestinian and Israeli is an individual unique human being. The trouble is these labels, these images, these stereotypes which prevent us from seeing each other as human beings.

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By Inherit The Wind, June 2, 2007 at 8:12 pm Link to this comment
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“Peter RV on 6/02 at 10:22 am
(Unregistered commenter)

Ref.#74716 by Tony Wicher and
Ref.#74753 by Robert
Hatred is a strategic weapon in the hands of the Zionists. The more of it they create, the more “reason” they have to continue their murderous slaughter of Palestinian civilians.
Just read this link and decide whether it is an anti-Semitic propaganda.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=11805279666 93&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull
A clear message to the “Judeo”-Christians, is it not?

BTW, Lefty, Righty, Inherit the Wind or Lilmamzar, this is the way I get my slanderous ideas about Israel. “

You said it, not me. 

This fascist ultra right-wing rabbi is no more representive of the views of all Isreal or the Labor government than Ann Coulter (that nazi) represents the views of all America or the Democratic Party! 

To base your opinions on the shit this “rabbi” spews is to agree with the neo-cons that all Moslems think like Osama Bin Laden.  Or that all Americans think like Ann Coulter or Lewis Farakkhan.  The idea is inane and your reasoning is seriously flawed.  Do YOU agree with either Ann Coulter or Lewis Farakkhan?  I sure as hell don’t!

To judge all Israelis and supporters of Israel based on this vile person is, as you yourself put it, slanderous.

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By Peter RV, June 2, 2007 at 11:22 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Ref.#74716 by Tony Wicher and
Ref.#74753 by Robert
Hatred is a strategic weapon in the hands of the Zionists. The more of it they create, the more “reason” they have to continue their murderous slaughter of Palestinian civilians.
Just read this link and decide whether it is an anti-Semitic propaganda.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1180527966693&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull
A clear message to the “Judeo”-Christians, is it not?

BTW, Lefty, Righty, Inherit the Wind or Lilmamzar, this is the way I get my slanderous ideas about Israel.

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By Robert, June 2, 2007 at 2:13 am Link to this comment

(Continued from previous comment)

If you were a Palestinian and witnessed the daily/weekly most gruesome humiliations, the shoving, kicking, clubbing, spitting, punching, urinating upon, shooting, chocking, knocking down, slapping and many other “democratic Israeli/IDF methods” used on your mother, grandmother, aunt, sister, daughter, father, grandfather, uncle, cousins, neighbors, classmates, friends, pregnant wife…just everyday people…What would you do? Can you continue to just put up with it day after day and just accept it as a normal way of life?

Wouldn’t any decent freedom loving human being protest these conditions? How much more can the Palestinians endure these daily gruesome humiliations & barbaric Apartheid treatment from the Israelis…And still everyone just stands there & does nothing & NO daring to speak out from our Elected Representatives?

How many times have we watched and heard on the news in these United States about an abusive father who beats up on the wife, the son the daughter? What usually happened after that long punishing abuse?
We all know the answer to this question! The wife, the son, the daughter finally say we are NOT going to put up with this “ABUSE” anymore. This abused family “finished off” the brutal abusive father/husband with a gun, knife, baseball bat…and so on. They go to court and many times the proof is enough to set them free.

If one is abusive and corners his/hers pet cat, that friendly & peaceful cat will turn on its owner’s jugular arteries & his eyes.

So the moral of the story is, people can only take so much abuse and humiliations. Just look at what happened at our high schools killing fields in the last several years. WHY?

DID THEIR PARENTS TEACH THEM TO KILL, TO HATE, TO TERRORIZE AND KILL THEMSELVES?

Now, just think about what the Palestinians have to put up with. Their family member gets killed & murdered by the brutal IDF and the Israeli system never convicts any of its soldiers, for the murder of an Arab…NEVER. They just walk away scot-free.

No wonder why some Palestinians just can’t take what they had to put up with for so many years…abusive humiliations. Some just react to what has been happening to them, their family, their frustration, the racism that just engulfs them wherever they go under their “superiors”.

Just think what would happen if Israel started to reverse their brutal system that they exert on the Palestinians?

What if Israel started to treat these people with some respect & a few ounces of dignity! What if Israel started to remove 90% of its roadblocks & checkpoints as they promised they would?

What is Israel removed long & ugly Apartheid wall & stopped confiscating Palestinian land, farms, bulldozing homes & olive grove?

The what if(s) can go on for a long time…,BUT the end results would be…  people would start to enjoy their lives, freedom, travel, opportunity, equal-rights for all, jobs, education, better future, dreams, and dignity…

MOST OF, IF NOT ALL VIOLENCE AND THE KILLING OF INNOCENT PEOPLE & CHILDREN WOULD STOP ON BOTH SIDES.

PEACE WITH EQUAL-RIGHTS, FREEDOM AND JUSTICE TO ALL…ARE THE SOLID FOUNDATIONS FOR A LASTING PEACE!

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By Robert, June 2, 2007 at 1:04 am Link to this comment

Comment #74207 by Peter RV on 5/31 at 7:25am

““Of course, there would be drawbacks to overcome.
Jews would have to abandon their, lately favourite sport, of shooting of Palestinians from helicopters, and, yes, they would have to pull down that hideous Wall, also known cutely as- “the fence”. Also, settlers would have to learn that their swimming pools cannot be filled up before Palestinians have enough drinking or irrigation water.”

PRV…for a moment just think and imagine what Palestinian families, their children, their neighbors, their cities, towns and villagers have endured under a brutal zionist occupation for the last 40 years.

Israel & its brutal IDF have used the most gruesome methods to reek havoc on the unarmed Palestinian population. The Israelis have bombed & bulldozed their homes, schools, hospitals, government buildings, roads, bridges, electricity, water supply, shops, farms, crops, animals…and list goes on & on….LET US NOT FORGET THE ON-GOING ETHNIC CLEANSING!

Moreover, the IDF and other Israeli agencies have set up hundreds of “Israel checkpoints” all over the occupied territories. Palestinians are mostly forbidden & harshly restricted from moving from one Palestinian village to another, from one Palestinian town / city to another Palestinian town/ city. Immagine try to go to Jerusalem. The Palestinians live in a large prison and are closed up & are always under the mercy of their “superior “BLOOD” occupiers”. For example, A trip that would take about 30 minutes from Bethlehem to Ramalah for an Israeli settler; for a Palestinian family going to visit relatives, it may take 4-6 hours, or maybe more. These Palestinians are NOT going to the Israeli side; they are going to another Palestinian town. IDF at checkpoints delaying/punishment tactics…

Palestinians from East Jerusalem are not allowed to bring back goods from Bethlehem and other West Bank towns. The IDF inspectors enforce that at the checkpoints. If anyone brings back such goods, the IDF just take it & throw away. Its all about tightening those big IDF screws on the Palestinians. Its all about brutal & gruesome Apartheid control of the Palestinians. Its all about facilitating & promoting more suffering on the Palestinians…with hope that they would just succumb and surrender to Israel’s brutal occupation, lose their identity, dignity or just maybe leave the area. 

If you or anyone from our rational readers/commenters were a “Palestinian”, how would anyone accept these conditions that are going on under Israel’s brutal IDF Apartheid systems on a daily basis, seven days a week, 365 days a year NON-STOP. And the world just looks on from the sidelines; America just keeps sending our hard earned taxpayers money to this brutal occupier and to the building of illegal “for Jews ONLY” settlements and supporting this Apartheid system.

Would you as a Palestinian living under those “Israeli Democratic” conditions like or love the treatment that the Israeli have always given to the Palestinians?

Would you as a Palestinian parent living in a refugee camp in Jenin, Bethlehem…other Palestinian territories locations, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon tell your kids and/or grandkids the TRUTH about what happened to the Palestinians & why they are still there & cannot go back to their homes, farm, towns, villages…etc…?

Would you tell the TRUTH about how an individual , who was born in Russia, and with ONLY one of his/her grandparents were Jewish, he/she can immigrate to Israel & become an Israeli citizen immediately, but if you were a Palestinian person and you were born in Jerusalem or any place in Palestine, you cannot even enter to visit your birthplace?

CONTINUED IN NEXT COMMENT >

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By Tony Wicher, June 1, 2007 at 9:18 pm Link to this comment

Re #74550 by Inherit The Wind on 6/01 at 9:37 am
“TW, Having written this, don’t you see what Israel faces?  By even daring to suggest these activists not live as murderers and consider a peaceful existence, you, who are totally sympathetic to their cause, was called “a tool of the Zionists” and the “Jewish Pigs” (exactly what the Jews were called in Germany after the First World War through 1945).

Yet despite your own personal experience with these people you believe that a one-state solution can provide a society in which Jews and Moslems can thrive together.  TW, there’s a definite cognitive dissonance here.  If I were Israeli, I would never trust one of your correspondents.

I hate to be so negative but I just don’t see any workable way that Israelis could trust them.  Your experience is direct, not filtered through newspapers or news sites, and they are very scary.  They sound like the Aryan Brotherhood and other such super-militant racist organizations here in the US.

You seem to consistently ignore their virulent racism and only attack that of Israelis.  I don’t get it. Again, they’ve called you a tool of the “Jewish Pigs” just for suggesting a solution that doesn’t involve violence.  How can you not see that they are unable and unwilling to abandon violence, and very willing to use it on their own who dare challenge or oppose them?

This whole thread is about a Palestinian man your correspondents would like to kill, and have tried to kill. Who in their right minds would expose their childrens’ lives to them?”
===============================================
IHW,

It is very difficult, I will admit. I was as taken aback by the fury of that Palestinian militant lady as I was by the fury of Lefty and Lil, who are ready to put the Palestinian people in cages and nuke the world if necessary. Both sides must to stop blaming the other and take a good long look in the mirror. I am doing my best to hold up that mirror to both sides.

My Palestinian militant correspondent claimed to speak for the Palestinian people, and she was not happy when I told her I knew plenty of Palestinians that did not agree with her. I told her that militarily the Palestinians did not have a chance and that she was only going to get all her people killed by firing those stupid rockets, but that Palestinians could have peace with justice by using non-violent and democratic methods. I have also corresponded with an ODS (One Democratic State) advocate living on the ground in Gaza. She is a very brave person, and I fear her life is in danger from the militants. Fanatics of either stripe don’t mind shedding the blood of the innocent, since their glorious cause transcends all considerations of human decency.   

ODS is favored by an ever-growing number of Palestinian intellectuals, many of whom, it is true, live outside of Palestine. I should say that they are able to view the situation more objectively than those living under the iron boot of Zionist rule.
I believe that the majority of the Palestinians themselves will jump at an ODS solution if they understand what it means and that it is a real possibility. At this point they cannot even begin to conceive of such a wonderful offer. How to reach them with such a proposal is my problem. They are desperate now. They must have hope for peace with justice. That means the Nakba cannot be denied, and the refugees must be repatriated with full compensation and full citizenship. Not citizenship in some Palestinian reservation, but the full power of citizenship in the country of Israel. There are Palestinians living in other countries who have gone to the West Bank and Gaza to try to spread this idea. If only they could get help from the United States, in the form of opposition to Israeli apartheid. I think this would be the key to a new U.S. peace initiative in the Middle East, which must begin with a just resolution to this conflict. I have been trying to interest Democratic leaders in this proposal.

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By lilmamzer, June 1, 2007 at 3:26 pm Link to this comment

#74622 by Tony Wicher: Democracy and equality was the answer then and it still is, after sixty years of senseless tragedy.

Democracy for Jews and the constituent minorities in Israel, the sovereign state of the Jewish nation, indeed, until the majority Jews decide, as is their privilege, to have it otherwise.

You will forever be unable to argue that away, Tony Wicher. History has been cast, the Jews are sovereign again, and will remain so, the actions and wishes of genocidal bigots such as yourself notwithstanding.

The re-establishment of Jewish sovereignty was a historical inevitability. The UN recognized that and acted accordingly. The Arabs failed to recognize that and bear primary responsibility for the series of failed attempts to commit genocide against the Jews. The Arabs had a chance to accept the partition plan and failed. Not the Jews’ fault for seeking self-determination - it was and remains their right. Arabs have that 22 times over. Yet you deny it even once for Jews. Bigot!

You carp endlessly about the “Palestinian” Arab refugees. There were even more Jewish refugees from Arab countries, but no more. They resettled and now lead productive and free lives. It is not Israel’s responsibility for the sins and miscalculations of those who sought to destroy the Jewish nation.

Get over it, the Arabs tried to wipe out the Jews, and they lost.

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By Tony Wicher, June 1, 2007 at 2:53 pm Link to this comment

Re: #74522 by lilmamzer on 6/01 at 8:07 am
(62 comments total)

One more thought: in reviewing the history of the conflict, I would say that the biggest mistake was made by the United Nations in 1947 by granting the partition of Palestine in the first place. As soon as that happened, and the British mandate ended, the Zionists immediately initiated ethnic cleansing - as they had meticulously planned in advance, as recounted in Pappe’s “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine”. Partition was wrong then and it still is. People who were not Solomon decided to cut the baby in two, and it was the wrong answer. Democracy and equality was the answer then and it still is, after sixty years of senseless tragedy.

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By lilmamzer, June 1, 2007 at 1:30 pm Link to this comment

#74550 by Inherit The Wind: You seem to consistently ignore their virulent racism and only attack that of Israelis.  I don’t get it. Again, they’ve called you a tool of the “Jewish Pigs” just for suggesting a solution that doesn’t involve violence.  How can you not see that they are unable and unwilling to abandon violence, and very willing to use it on their own who dare challenge or oppose them?

Your comment to Tony Wicher assumes the man can be reasoned with regarding the fundamental right of Jews to self-determination. He cannot be. No expression of genocidal intent on the part of the Palestinian Arabs would convince him that Jews would not live peacefully in perpetual dhimmi status under these Arabs. He is irrational. Such is his antipathy towards the existence of the Jewish nation.

Why does he have a problem with Jews? Who knows. We don’t hear him calling for the denial Portuguese self-determination and for the destruction of Portugal as a sovereign state. Neither do we hear similar demands of ANY other peoples EXCEPT for the Jews.

If it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck…...........

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By lilmamzer, June 1, 2007 at 12:01 pm Link to this comment

#74540 by Tony Wicher: Only one democratic state can bring peace with justice and resolve this conflict.

The Arab war against the Jews and their nation of Israel will only be resoved when the Arabs resolve to live peacefully with their neighbors and grant the them recognition they demand for themselves. Oppression, dispossession, intolerance, and theocratic absolutism are worth resisting on principle alone, let alone the fact that millions of innocent lives hang in the balance and deserve our support. I support the State of Israel and her struggle for peace and freedom, and her struggle to resist those who would deny freedom and self-determination for ethnic, religious, and cultural hatreds. That is what it means to be a Zionist and I am proud to be one and proud to raise my children with a love of Israel.

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By lilmamzer, June 1, 2007 at 11:56 am Link to this comment

#74540 by Tony Wicher: Only one democratic state can bring peace with justice and resolve this conflict.

The Arabs have 22 nation-states already. Making a 23rd will solve their existential problems? It will just extend their misery to yet another failed state. It will serve no purpose, unless that is what they wish for themselves. However, The Jews wish for only one, for themselves, and that is as it should be. To deny them that is to deny the essence of the human desire for freedom, liberty, and self-determination in it’s most basic sense. Israel’s existence is in no way an exclusionary phenomenon. That mindset is a fabrication and a canard. Let the “Palestinian” Arabs create their own state and stop trying to destroy another nation’s achievements and destiny.

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By lilmamzer, June 1, 2007 at 11:23 am Link to this comment

#74540 by Tony Wicher: Only one democratic state can bring peace with justice and resolve this conflict.

Subjugating Jews to the will of a genocidal Palestinian Arab regime does not, and never will, qualify as justice to anyone, except, perhaps, those who pervert the meaning of justice to a denial of the right of self-determination for the Jewish nation, and, most likely, the completion of Hitler’s “Final Solution”.

Is that the resolution you seek? Because that is what would happen. Don’t take my word for it, take it from the Arabs themselves.

It also means you advocate a war of annihilation against a sovereign nation, a member state of the United Nations, and an open and free democratic society the likes of which do not exist anywhere else in the Middle East. Why any right-thinking person would wish for that is beyond me. The “Palestinian Arabs” are not Israeli, will never be Israeli, and have no right or case to become so, by democratic means or otherwise. They can choose to become peaceful neighbors and make productive lives for themsleves, or they can continue to choose their current path of war and self-destruction. That is a tragedy but it is of their own choosing.

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By lilmamzer, June 1, 2007 at 11:13 am Link to this comment

#74540 by Tony Wicher: “Two-state” means one Jewish state plus one Palestinian ghetto. Only one democratic state can bring peace with justice and resolve this conflict.


Only a ghetto if the Arabs want it to be; so far they have willed it upon themselves to be so. When Sharon removed the last Jew from Gaza, the Arabs wasted no time destroying the high-tech greenhouses the Israelis intentionally left behind, intact and ready to operate that would have provided jobs and a good income. But that’s just one symptom of the Arab disease. 

Jews living under Arab domination will never bring justice for Jews. Ask any of the 800,000 Jewish refugees from Arab countries who made their way to Israel. Hence self-determination for Jews. Arabs - 22 independent nation states (and counting). Jews - one and only one. Yet you would deny the Jews even that. By your reasoning, it is a crime that the US keeps Mexico “in the ghetto”. Absurd. Pointlessly dogmatic and detached from real people in the real world.

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By Inherit The Wind, June 1, 2007 at 10:37 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

” Lil,

I have never been personally in Gaza but I have corresponded with militants on the ground there, and I do have a sense of the depth of the hate on the Palestinian side. I have told them that there will be no peace until the Palestinians elect a leadership committed to democracy and non-violence, and that their only real weapon is U.S. and world opinion. For this, the militants have called me a Zionist and a traitor to their cause who is trying to trick them into surrendering to the “Jewish pigs” occupying their country. But these militants are only a small minority of Palestinians. Most would only like to live decent lives in peace, and are being misled by their political leaders. The same, I believe, can be said of Israelis. “

TW,
Having written this, don’t you see what Israel faces?  By even daring to suggest these activists not live as murderers and consider a peaceful existence, you, who are totally sympathetic to their cause, was called “a tool of the Zionists” and the “Jewish Pigs” (exactly what the Jews were called in Germany after the First World War through 1945).

Yet despite your own personal experience with these people you believe that a one-state solution can provide a society in which Jews and Moslems can thrive together.  TW, there’s a definite cognitive dissonance here.  If I were Israeli, I would never trust one of your correspondents.  Why would I?  They make Fadel seem liberal and open-minded, which he is not.  In fact, if I were Israeli I would view your correspondents with the same trepidation as I would view Hitler’s brown-shirts in the streets.

I hate to be so negative but I just don’t see any workable way that Israelis could trust them.  Your experience is direct, not filtered through newspapers or news sites, and they are very scary.  They sound like the Aryan Brotherhood and other such super-militant racist organizations here in the US.

You seem to consistently ignore their virulent racism and only attack that of Israelis.  I don’t get it. Again, they’ve called you a tool of the “Jewish Pigs” just for suggesting a solution that doesn’t involve violence.  How can you not see that they are unable and unwilling to abandon violence, and very willing to use it on their own who dare challenge or oppose them?

This whole thread is about a Palestinian man your correspondents would like to kill, and have tried to kill. Who in their right minds would expose their childrens’ lives to them?

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By Tony Wicher, June 1, 2007 at 10:11 am Link to this comment

Re #74522 by lilmamzer on 6/01 at 8:07 am
(62 comments total)

“The crucial difference being that the Palestinian Arabs voted for the openly genocidal Hamas, while Israelis voted for Kadima, whose platform is committed to the two-state solution, which remains the goal of the vast majority of Israelis.”
————————————————————————
I agree with the Palestinians that the two-state solution is (and always has been) a fraud which conceals the reality of continued ethnic cleansing. “Two-state” means one Jewish state plus one Palestinian ghetto. Only one democratic state can bring peace with justice and resolve this conflict.

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By lilmamzer, June 1, 2007 at 9:07 am Link to this comment

#74516 by Tony Wicher: Most would only like to live decent lives in peace, and are being misled by their political leaders. The same, I believe, can be said of Israelis.

The crucial difference being that the Palestinian Arabs voted for the openly genocidal Hamas, while Israelis voted for Kadima, whose platform is committed to the two-state solution, which remains the goal of the vast majority of Israelis.

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By Tony Wicher, June 1, 2007 at 8:59 am Link to this comment

Re #74508 by lilmamzer on 6/01 at 7:38 am
(61 comments total)

#74300 by Tony Wicher: There is only one obstacle to this beautiful vision, the hate….There is plenty of that on the Palestinian side too. I believe that with love and truth it can be overcome. Without overcoming it, there is no solution.

A faint glimmer of awareness from Tony Wicher. I never thought I’d see that. My offer still stands, Tony - but now your agenda must include a swing through Gaza (if you dare) to bring the message of love and peace to the Arabs. That should be fun.”
————————————————————————-
Lil,

I have never been personally in Gaza but I have corresponded with militants on the ground there, and I do have a sense of the depth of the hate on the Palestinian side. I have told them that there will be no peace until the Palestinians elect a leadership committed to democracy and non-violence, and that their only real weapon is U.S. and world opinion. For this, the militants have called me a Zionist and a traitor to their cause who is trying to trick them into surrendering to the “Jewish pigs” occupying their country. But these militants are only a small minority of Palestinians. Most would only like to live decent lives in peace, and are being misled by their political leaders. The same, I believe, can be said of Israelis.

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By lilmamzer, June 1, 2007 at 8:38 am Link to this comment

#74300 by Tony Wicher: There is only one obstacle to this beautiful vision, the hate….There is plenty of that on the Palestinian side too. I believe that with love and truth it can be overcome. Without overcoming it, there is no solution.

A faint glimmer of awareness from Tony Wicher. I never thought I’d see that. My offer still stands, Tony - but now your agenda must include a swing through Gaza (if you dare) to bring the message of love and peace to the Arabs. That should be fun.

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By Peter RV, June 1, 2007 at 5:08 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Ref.#74300 by Tony Wicher
  Tony,
Agree, hate would be a big problem, but that too could be controlled.
Each side would have to control its own lunatic fringe.This could be done by a solid police force and an unbiased judiciary system, with a help, if needed- from outside.
  At the beginning many prisons would be full, I am sure, loonybins too (judging by the state of mind of some of our interlocutors), but a good psychiatric care should cure a lot of cases and make decent and productive citizens out of them.
  Dream? May be, but what is the alternative?
  Every one of them leads to a no-quarter-given-or-taken bloodshed from which the winner will finally be the one which minds less dying for its cause.
  I somehow doubt that would be the one enjoying his life next to his hilltop swimming pool.

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By Tony Wicher, May 31, 2007 at 1:54 pm Link to this comment

Re #74207 by Peter RV on 5/31 at 7:25 am

Peter

That is exactly how I think the one democratic state could be realized. It seems to me so practical and reasonable. Israelis and Palestinians could negotiate a constitution with ironclad guarantees of minority rights. This guarantee would involve integration of the armed forces. The U.S. and the world, including Arab countries would provide financial help in repatriating the Palestinian refugees. 

There is only one obstacle to this beautiful vision, the hate, which Lefty and lil have so clearly expressed. There is plenty of that on the Palestinian side too. I believe that with love and truth it can be overcome. Without overcoming it, there is no solution.

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By Peter RV, May 31, 2007 at 8:25 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Ref.#74145 by Tony Wicher
Well, if you are crazy, so am I, and- furthermore, I intend to stay that way.
  I like your idea of one state for Arabs and the Jews, whatever it could be called.
  I must admit, I didn’t think of it before. As you say, the settlements wouldn’t have to be removed but, of course, additional ones have to be built to accomodate the long suffering Palestinian refugees who wish to return. Since the U.S. bears a heavy responsability for perpetuating Palestinian Naqba, it would be fair that it also bears a heavy financial responsability for building Palestinian settlements.(Tax for that I would gladly pay)
A minute fraction of the cost of armament, supplied annually to Israel, would, I am convinced, cover the cost of everything.
Jews have always found way to prosper living with other ethnic groups. As a matter of fact, they did so in Palestine, before the Zionists decided to make the Naqba- Palestinian Halocaust
  Of course, there would be drawbacks to overcome.
  Jews would have to abandon their , lately favourite sport, of shooting of Palestinians from helicopters, and , yes, they would have to pull down that hideous Wall, also known cutely as- “the fence”. Also, settlers would have to learn that their swimming pools cannot be filled up before Palestinian have enough drinking or irrigation water.
  All this could be quite a trauma for the People who are accustomed to think they’ve been “chosen” by their God (the U.S.?), to enjoy everything and leave nothing to their neighbours.
  Still, once an unequivocal signal from the U.S. comes, Israel’s tantrums would cease immediately.
  Let’s work on that.

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By Tony Wicher, May 31, 2007 at 1:57 am Link to this comment

Re #73978 by Peter RV on 5/30 at 8:16 am
How can one explain the fact that the most intelligent Jews are,not only not listened to by their tribe, but are also viciously attacked and crucified by it on every turn? Not easily. Christians may be forgiven if they suspect here a Biblical Curse.”
=================================================
Peter,

I have been studying the Bible recently and I have been having some very strange thoughts, as I was trying to tell lilmamzer before he went completely berserk. Israel was born in sin, the Nakba. The Biblical prophesies say that the redemption of the Jews of Israel will occur at the end of days. I do believe that the Jewish state will only be redeemed for the sin in which it was born by ceasing to be a Jewish state. That will fulfill the prophecies.

Am I crazy?

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By Tony Wicher, May 31, 2007 at 1:43 am Link to this comment

Re #73978 by Peter RV on 5/30 at 8:16 am

“I dont consider Tony Wicher an authority on Israel Society and whatsmore he never gave me impression that he considers to be that, himself.
He does seem ,unlike you , to be an American (of Jewish faith?), intelligent and civilized, concerned about the murderous course Israel, and the U.S.are continuously taking. And he should very well be.”

Thanks, Peter. As to my faith, it is to speak the truth no matter what, and to bring peace on earth.

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By Robert, May 30, 2007 at 2:48 pm Link to this comment

PRV, here is a good article on the Israeli/Palestinian-Arab conflict:
———————————————————————


“The Sixty Year Wound”

“To the Shores of Tripoli”


By Uri Avnery     5/30/2007

“The bloody battles that have erupted around the Nahr al-Bared refugee camp near Tripoli in Lebanon remind us that the refugee problem has not disappeared. On the contrary, 60 years after the “Nakba”, the Palestinian catastrophe of 1948, it is again the center of attention throughout the world.

This is an open wound. Anyone who imagines that a solution to the Israel-Arab conflict is possible without healing this wound is deluding himself.”


Here is today’s link for the rest of this story:


http://www.counterpunch.org/avnery05302007.html

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By Robert, May 30, 2007 at 2:22 pm Link to this comment

Comment #73978 by Peter RV on 5/30 at 8:16 am

“The frequency of their desperate attacks is also on increase, all this, of course, to provoke the closure of a debate which is obviously beginning to affect their nerves. It is a tactics which is being applied all the time, with some variations, by these fanatical zelots.”

———————————————————————————

PRV…your keen insights has pierced through the ear drums of “lefty=ephraim pesach” & “ill-lie-mamzie”. One wonders if these two or maybe one “hysterical(s)” & rabid zionists can even be capable of being rational.

One wonders if these 2 or maybe its really one(1). I really can’t tell the difference between either one. They both sound the same but with little variation of their zionist garbage. One can see that these “abscessed-skull” are no strangers to each other. They are maybe using the same computer to post their vile filled trash! I can see they are joined at their “thick pus-filled abscessed infected skull”.

Are these “crack/coke” heads working anywhere? Who in the hell would hire/employ such incompetent hate/grudge filled individuals? Who in the world would trust the likes of these nuts? They sounds like unemployed “crack-heads” and maybe living on welfare!

How many times have these “crack heads” been fired & what about their background history investigation? Who knows what these evils have been up to somewhere else?

Notice neither one of them dares to give us a little bit about their background. Wonder why?

These “crack heads” don’t care about truth & facts when it comes to Israel/zionim’s record on human rights…etc… All they care about is labeling us as Arabs, terrorists, Anti-semitic, Jew-haters…etc… and just hoping & attempting to persuade readers/commenters on “truthdig” to listen to their “Zionist garbage”.

PRV, you are right by saying that:

“But we have to fight these people. It is unthinkable for us to let them highjack our Nation as they did our Government”.

I HAVE TO BE CRUEL TO SHOW KINDNESS TO THE LIKES OF THESE ‘CRACKHEAD’ INFECTED ZIONISTS!

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By lilmamzer, May 30, 2007 at 11:38 am Link to this comment

#73978 Peter RV wrote: This is my anti-Semitic contribution for today.

It certainly was. What’s most interesting is how banal you are about your bigotry.

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By Peter RV, May 30, 2007 at 9:16 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Ref.#73902 by Robert
You correctly notice how the size of their letters i.e. their screemings, increase with their impotence to provide any arguments that make sense (can’t help thinking there is something rabid out there trying to push its fangs through the screen to reach us)
  The frequency of their desperate attacks is also on increase, all this, of course, to provoke the closure of a debate which is obviously beginning to affect their nerves.
  It is a tactics which is being applied all the time, with some variations, by these fanatical zelots.
  When ridiculizing, intimidations and swears and insults are exhausted (their vocabulary of foul words becomes too repetitive even to their ears) and no longer work ,then hopefully a saturation by garbage will.
  But we have to fight these people. It is unthinkable for us to let them highjack our Nation as they did our Government.

  Ref#73716 by Lilmamzer
  I dont consider Tony Wicher an authority on Israel Society and whatsmore he never gave me impression that he considers to be that, himself.
  He does seem ,unlike you , to be an American (of Jewish faith?), intelligent and civilized, concerned about the murderous course Israel, and the U.S.are continuously taking. And he should very well be.
  I get my information about Israeli Society,directly, well, from -Israel!
  The names like Uri Avnery, Gideon Levy, Amira Haas or Ron HaCohen (all Israelis), may not sound anything familiar to you, due to the fact that you vere “protected” from their opinions by your Gauleiters from AIPAC,JINSA,PNAC,B’NAIBRETh etc etc. 
  These are all brilliant journalists and thinkers whose voices have been barred from American Public.
  As an outsider (I’m not Jewish), I observe that Jews as a people are pretty stupid, despite the fact they always had geniuses in their midst.
  How can one explain the fact that the most intelligent Jews are,not only not listened to by their tribe, but are also viciously attacked and crucified by it on every turn? Not easily. Christians may be forgiven if they suspect here a Biblical Curse.
  So, now Finkelstein, Chomsky and the refugee from the Zionist Paradise, Pappe ( you can add here Gilad Atzmon the famous musicien)are to be tarred and feathered by jewish goons, for trying to warn of the disastrous course Israel is taking. Tom Wicher is in
a very honourable company.
I will attemt to explain my position on Israeli moral standards from a single exemple.
Sometimes arround Jennin siege, Dan Haluts, the head of the IDF Air Force and later the supreme commander of the Lebanon Debacle (now sacked), was asked what he felt when he dropped a thousand pound bomb that killed an “activist” together with several families, some nine children among them. The famous bombardier cynically retorted: A slight bump, normal when bomb released.
That very bomb of Haluts’ together with his answer,has shattered to pieces any right of Israel’s to evoke any standards of morality.
This is my anti-Semitic contribution for today.

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By lilmamzer, May 30, 2007 at 8:59 am Link to this comment

Lefty, you wrote: He, not once, ever acknowledged the question.  Rather, he continued to parrot the Arab propagandist lies

I am not expecting a productive dialog with these people. It would be nice to be pleasantly surprised but believe me, I am not holding my breath. If the unwavering position of the other side is that you are illegitimate and have no right ot exist, let alone defend yourself, it would be foolish to expect otherwise.

I ask these questions not because I expect Robert, Tony “One State” Wicher, and the rest to provide reasonable answers, but becasue the questions themselves need to asked and made public. Contrary to what shows up here on Truthdig most of the time, there ARE thinking and feeling people out there. They are the ones who will read and think and eventually act.

And it’s fun to tease these guys, I have to admit.

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By lilmamzer, May 30, 2007 at 8:09 am Link to this comment

Robert writes: So, what they are doing on the blogs is an equivalent of noisy heckling, they practice in auditoriums to prevent speakers from criticizing the subject of their adoration. Here, of course, one can’t make noise and the only thing one can do is writecontinuously rubbish, in hope to saturate the site or/and to intimidate those who dare talk sense.”

Are you even reading my questions to you, Robert? I am asking very real, very legitimate questions that you need to answer. If you cannot answer them, we will have to assume that you are either incapable of forming a coherent reply or are entrenched in a rigidly dogmatic mindset which prevents you from making a clear and rational deliberative exchange of ideas.

So which is it, Robert?


....sounds of crickets chirping…

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By lilmamzer, May 30, 2007 at 7:58 am Link to this comment

Robert writes: Actions of Israel, at this stage, are absolutely indefensible by any moral standard (except Nazi)

I’ll be generous with you, Robert, and generously assume that you mean Israeli military actions.

Can we stipulate that Israeli civilians in Sderot are suffering daily bombardment from the Palestinian Arab terror weapons known as Kassam rockets? This is indisputable fact.

Why does the Israeli government NOT have the responsibility to take measures to protect her civilian population from external attacks? Why do the Israeli people not have the right ot authorize their government to take measures for the common defense? That is what governments, in part, are supposed to do. And yet you make a ridiculous assertion: Israel’s actions are indefensible. By implication you are saying that somehow Israelis are less-deserving of life than, say, Palestinian Arabs?
By what moral standard have you arrived at that determination? Israeli Jews under aerial bombardment have no right to resist, no right to live? Are you condemning them to death by arguing away their rights?

Your statements reflect such muddled thinking. Either that or a viciousness so profound it almost defies explanation.

Which is it, Robert?

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By lilmamzer, May 30, 2007 at 4:52 am Link to this comment

Rober writes: Actions of Israel, at this stage, are absolutely indefensible by any moral standard (except Nazi)

All actions or just some actions? Government spending on health and welfare programs are actions. Are those actions indefensible by any moral standards?

And when you say Israel, do you mean just the current government coalition or do you mean the entire nation? Or do you mean just the Jewish population?

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By Robert, May 30, 2007 at 1:08 am Link to this comment

Comment #71092 by Peter RV on 5/19 at 1:02 pm


“Actually, I think, I understand the reason for their paranoia.
Actions of Israel, at this stage, are absolutely indefensible by any moral standard (except Nazi), and the defenders of Israel feel that. So, what they are doing on the blogs is an equivalent of noisy heckling, they practice in auditoriums to prevent speakers from criticizing the subject of their adoration. Here, of course, one can’t make noise and the only thing one can do is writecontinuously rubbish, in hope to saturate the site or/and to intimidate those who dare talk sense.”
—————————————————————————-

PRV, you described it & called it just like it is. The 2 fanatic zionists who are still ranting & frothing at the mouth have NO other options.

Lefty=Ephraim Pesach & his side-kick “ill-lie-mamzie” are joined at the hip & joined at that dense “infected” skull.

One can see & hear these two “paranoid schizophrenic” moaning & groaning loudly on that “Israel/AIPAC Internet Mega-phone Speaker” as one drives by a psyche ward. There is NO cure for their mental disorder!

They have NO substance & NO truth on this & other forums.

PRV, “lefty=ephraim pesach” is still feeling that left hook. His left jaw hasn’t been the same since.

They have pulled & tried every trashy method/tactic and hurled it on this thread…hoping to frustrate, discredit, intimidate everyone in order for us to stop posting the TRUTH about Israel’s Apartheid & Nazi policies against the Palestinians.


They have tried to poison the well of knowledge & truth. Their bare behinds are exposed for all to see.

THEY ARE DOING OUR HARD WORK FOR US. WE ARE LOOKING AT THE MANY FACES OF “EVIL” ZIONISM.

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By lilmamzer, May 29, 2007 at 8:07 pm Link to this comment

Tony Wicher writes: I think its time to take Ernest’s advice and put this thread to bed. lilmanzer can rave on alone.

Tony, say it ain’t so. You’ve been the source of much comedy here.

It really is true: far-left Trotskyites have no sense of humor. You’re no fun anymore, Tony.

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By Tony Wicher, May 29, 2007 at 7:37 pm Link to this comment

I think its time to take Ernest’s advice and put this thread to bed. lilmanzer can rave on alone.

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By lilmamzer, May 29, 2007 at 6:20 pm Link to this comment

OK, here’s some alternate titles for the upcoming documentary of Tony’s swing through Israel:
===========================================

C’mon, Jews, Suicide Ain’t So Bad
————————————
Please Just Lay Down And Die Now, OK
————————————
I Promise I Will Stop Posting Nonsense At Truthdig If You Jews Just Give Up Already
————————————
Hamas? They Just Want To Be Friends, Honest

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By lilmamzer, May 29, 2007 at 6:14 pm Link to this comment

“Tony Wicher Goes To Israel”
Coming soon to a theatre near you
==================================
Watch internationally-acclaimed One-State Theorist Tony Wicher make a speaking tour of Israel as he tries to persuade ordinary Israelis from all walks of life to voluntarily give up their homes and their lives to satisfy Mr. Wicher’s obscure and confused Utopian visions for the dissolution of the Jewish nation.

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By lilmamzer, May 29, 2007 at 6:00 pm Link to this comment

Link for Gallup poll mentioned in previous post:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3368650,00.html
=====================
Link for Israel Project poll mentioned in previous post:
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=/ForeignBureaus/archive/200705/INT20070518c.html

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By lilmamzer, May 29, 2007 at 5:58 pm Link to this comment

Tony Wicher writes: All this is sheer Bush-imperialist propaganda from Fox News, being conveyed to you as high political wisdom.

=======================
Poll finds US support for Israel soaring

=======================
US Gallup poll: Israel alone named ‘vital friend’

=======================
Tony Wicher - like I said before, you don’t know what you are talking about.

I will pay for your trip if you go to Israel and make a good-faith effort to persuade Israelis to commit national suicide. It will make for good comedy along the lines of Borat. I will follow you around and make a documentary, OK?

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By Tony Wicher, May 29, 2007 at 5:45 pm Link to this comment

Re #73713 by lilmamzer on 5/29 at 11:01 am
(46 comments total)

“Peter RV writes: Nobody in the West believes that Israel, at this stage, has any other standard than “anything goes” and, never mind the Muslim world.

Nobody? Is that the case? How does that explain the fact that more Americans support Israel in her struggle for peace and freedom now more than ever?

I explain it by the fact that the American people have been misled by the imperialist-Zionist propaganda machine which has been dinning your lies into their ears for decades. 

“And likewise, awareness of the real nature of Arab and Muslim politics and societies has never been more acute, particularly since 9-11. And not just in the US. France and the Netherlands among others in Europe are aware of the threat Islamic extremism.”

Yes, and ending imperialism and Zionist extremism is the key to ending Islamic extremism, since it is the primary moral justification for its existence.

“They are aware that it’s not only Israel’s problem but a growing threat to their own national security and identities. They don’t want Eurabia to come into existence.”

Why shouldn’t Europeans they want a “Eurabia” meaning a democratic “Arabia” united with a democratic Europe? Turkey is already a candidate for membership in the Common Market. This is the right way to spread democracy, not bombing people. Sure European countries have had their problems. The murder of the Theo Van Gogh was an act of unbelieveble savagery, as bad as Baruch Kappel Goldstein who was an American-Israeli physician who perpetrated the 1994 Cave of the Patriarchs massacre in the city of Hebron, killing 29 Arab attendants of the Ibrahimi Mosque (within the Cave of the Patriarchs) and wounding another 150 in a shooting attack. Lilmamzer probably thinks Goldstein is a hero.

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By Tony Wicher, May 29, 2007 at 5:06 pm Link to this comment

Re #73713 by lilmamzer on 5/29 at 11:01 am
(46 comments total)

“Peter RV writes: Nobody in the West believes that Israel, at this stage, has any other standard than “anything goes” and, never mind the Muslim world.

Nobody? Is that the case? How does that explain the fact that more Americans support Israel in her struggle for peace and freedom now more than ever?
And likewise, awareness of the real nature of Arab and Muslim politics and societies has never been more acute, particularly since 9-11. And not just in the US. France and the Netherlands among others in Europe are aware of the threat Islamic extremism. They are aware that it’s not only Israel’s problem but a growing threat to their own national security and identities. They don’t want Eurabia to come into existence. Perhaps you do Peter RV, and perhaps you would like to live as a dhimmi under sharia law, but the people of France have just elected a new governmnet that will enact tougher immigration laws for precisely this reason. “
=================================================
Peter, thanks for your efforts. All this is sheer Bush-imperialist propaganda from Fox News, being conveyed to you as high political wisdom. I think we have heard all this from the likes of Richard Cheney.

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By lilmamzer, May 29, 2007 at 5:02 pm Link to this comment

Tony Wicher, I imagine now that you have just written a one-act play, and it is called “One State Solution”.

I post it here for your reading pleasure.
===========================================
One State Solution

Hamas: Jews of Israel, we will kill you all.

Israel: OK, why don’t you all just move on in then. Make yourselves comfortable, why dontcha?

(The Jews lay down on the stage whilst the Palestinian Arabs run amok and slaughter all them)

THE END

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By lilmamzer, May 29, 2007 at 4:51 pm Link to this comment

Tony Wicher - Have you ever heard of Hamas? They were the overwhelming choice of the voting Palestinian Arab public. The Hamas charter explicitly calls for the death of the Jews of Israel. I would absolutely love to see you go on a speaking tour in Israel and try to persuade Joe Six-Pack Israeli to disslove his country in order to allow Hamas to come in, take over, and implement their Islamist theocracy with all that would mean.

Can’t you see how naive you appear?

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By lilmamzer, May 29, 2007 at 4:43 pm Link to this comment

Tony Wicher - I had no idea you were so thin-skinned. You have no problem coming on here and advocating genocidal policies, but as soon as someone might make editorial and rhetorical references to you and your fakakta ideas, you cry for mommy.

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By lilmamzer, May 29, 2007 at 4:37 pm Link to this comment

Tony Wicher writes: In a one-state solution, Israelis do NOT have to withdraw from settlements. Rather, settlements for the Palestinian refugees would be built. That is one of the virtues of the one-state solution.

Please tell us why you think this is a viable solution that will guarantee rights for the Jews? Your idea is beyond utopian.

The problem with your “solution” is that Israel is a sovereign nation, and the vast majority of the citizens of that UN member state do not wish to absorb several million alien and genocidally-hostile Arabs into the population. What other country on earth would you have commit national suicide in such a manner?

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By Tony Wicher, May 29, 2007 at 3:34 pm Link to this comment

Re #73441 by Inherit The Wind on 5/28 at 9:56 am
(Unregistered commenter)

“The sad part is that when some settlements were vacated in Gaza, the Palestinians destroyed them, rather than making use of them and keeping them productive.  That alone is what terrifies Israelis about a one-state solution. What has been built will be destroyed for no good reason.”
==========================================
IHW,

I don’t get this. In a one-state solution, Israelis do NOT have to withdraw from settlements. Rather, settlements for the Palestinian refugees would be built. That is one of the virtues of the one-state solution.

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By Tony Wicher, May 29, 2007 at 12:12 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

TO SITE MONITOR:

I deliberately logged off so that this post would be monitored.

I would like to protest the recent posts of
the person calling himself lilmamzer. He has repeatedly posted statements like the following, comment #73651 on 5/29 at 6:31 am

“Tony Wicher’s FINKELSTEIN-CHOMSKY REPORT EXPOSING RACIST-ZIONIST ISRAELI JEWS UNDER DAILY PALESTINIAN ARAB TERROR BOMBARDMENT”

This is followed by a barrage of pro-Israeli propaganda, which I did not write, and Drs. Finkelstein and Chomsky surely did not write.
He can post any kind of nonsense he wants, but he should not post comments attributing his nonsense to me, under my name. This is outside even my very liberal standards of propriety and decency. Please monitor and discard any further posts of this nature. We all want robust political dialogue, but this sort of post is preventing it. If possible, I would appreciate it if you would post an official public reproof to “lilmanzer” on this thread.

Respectfully,

Tony Wicher
Ontario, California.

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By lilmamzer, May 29, 2007 at 12:03 pm Link to this comment

Peter RV, you keep citing Tony Wicher as if her were some kind of authority on Israeli society. He doesn’t have any idea what he is talking about, and neither do you.

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By lilmamzer, May 29, 2007 at 12:01 pm Link to this comment

Peter RV writes: Nobody in the West believes that Israel, at this stage, has any other standard than “anything goes” and, never mind the Muslim world.

Nobody? Is that the case? How does that explain the fact that more Americans support Israel in her struggle for peace and freedom now more than ever?
And likewise, awareness of the real nature of Arab and Muslim politics and societies has never been more acute, particularly since 9-11. And not just in the US. France and the Netherlands among others in Europe are aware of the threat Islamic extremism. They are aware that it’s not only Israel’s problem but a growing threat to their own national security and identities. They don’t want Eurabia to come into existence. Perhaps you do Peter RV, and perhaps you would like to live as a dhimmi under sharia law, but the people of France have just elected a new governmnet that will enact tougher immigration laws for precisely this reason.

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By lilmamzer, May 29, 2007 at 11:55 am Link to this comment

Peter RV writes: You say that minorities in Arab Countries are excluded from their Governments. Hence what? Is that equivalent to Israel’s forbidding Palestinians to use certain roads.

You are not addressing Inherit The Winds’ question. The Arab minority in Israel has more freedoms than they would have living as Arabs in any of the 22 Arab nation-states. That is how you should address the question, not an evasive shift of topic that isn’t even about Israeli citizens. Apparently the plight of those few surviving Jews in Arab countries is of no concern to you. No great surprise there. Most of the 800,000 Jewish dispossessed from Arab countries during and after the 1948 war of annihilation against Israel made new and prosperous lives for themselves in Israel. The time has passed for living in dhimmi status under oppressive and regressive Muslim theocratic societies. Too bad you are such an apologist for Arab and Muslim retrograde politics, Peter RV.

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By lilmamzer, May 29, 2007 at 11:47 am Link to this comment

Peter RV writes: You say that minorities in Arab Countries are excluded from their Governments. Hence what? Is that equivalent to Israel’s forbidding Palestinians to use certain roads. Walling them…

Why should Israel allow non-citizens free access and use of roads that Israel determines are necessary for physical security? You do not make the distinction between Arab Israelis and so-called Palestinian Arabs. As for the security fence that is actually only 10% wall and 90% fence, you are either disingenuous or willfully ignorant by suggesting its purpose is anything other than to preven Palestinian Arabs from practicing their favorite hobby of blowing themselves up amongst Israeli families in pizza parlors and on busses.

Your arguments rest on the spoecious foundation that Israel is illegitimate as a sovereign nation, and therefore not entitled to appropriate measures to ensure her security. You are also a coward because while you argue the cause of Hamas and those others who want to see Israel destroyed, you yourself have not the courage to take up arms and slaughter Jews with your own hands.

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By Peter RV, May 29, 2007 at 9:22 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Ref.#73566 by Inherit the Wind.
I did sound insulting but since I hit the wrong target, I plead ignorant. Sort of “Colateral Damage”, to borrow the vernacular of our times.
It was a “pre-emptive attack all right, but only against an imaginary snooty adolescent, whom I imagined terrorising our discussions.
More seriously ITW, you sometimes do sound a teenager in your exchanges, especially with Tony Wicher.
  You say that minorities in Arab Countries are excluded from their Governments. Hence what? Is that equivalent to Israel’s forbidding Palestinians to use certain roads. Walling them, cutting their orchids and crops,robbing them of water and expropriating their land? Do you really believe you are providing sound arguments this way?
  You also say that “Israel’s neighbours and ennemies are not held to the standard Israel is held to”.
What standard are you talking about?
Moral standard or Armament standard?
If it is moral standard you are refering to ,I wouldn’t use that argument. Nobody in the West believes that Israel, at this stage, has any other standard than “anything goes” and , never mind the Muslim world.
Israel, as Wicher points, is already sinking under the weight of its (i.e. American) armament, without any hope of increasing its security. As a matter of fact, it is more insecure than ever.
Moral of the story should be not to get better attack helicopters but to make an honest effort to make a historical agreement with Palestinians.
Israel’s military victories can’t be but ephimeral.
It is far more inteligent to recognize that War for Security is lost and not to wait for the final battle to be lost- which almost always has terrible consequences.

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By lilmamzer, May 29, 2007 at 7:31 am Link to this comment

Tony Wicher’s FINKELSTEIN-CHOMSKY REPORT EXPOSING RACIST-ZIONIST ISRAELI JEWS UNDER DAILY PALESTINIAN ARAB TERROR BOMBARDMENT
====================================================
Who Dares Tony Wicher To Click On This Link And See The “Racist” Truth About Israeli Jews?

http://www.conferenceofpresidents.org/salberg.jpg

~now the link should work properly~

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By lilmamzer, May 29, 2007 at 7:27 am Link to this comment

Tony Wicher’s FINKELSTEIN-CHOMSKY REPORT EXPOSING RACIST-ZIONIST ISRAELI JEWS UNDER DAILY PALESTINIAN ARAB TERROR BOMBARDMENT
====================================================
Who Dares Tony Wicher To Click On This Link And See The “Racist” Truth?

<A HREF=“www.conferenceofpresidents.org/salberg.jpg”>

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By lilmamzer, May 29, 2007 at 5:51 am Link to this comment

Tony Wicher’s FINKELSTEIN-CHOMSKY RACIST-ZIONIST EXPOSE REPORT

.....wherein our intrepid Far-Left standard bearer’s blithely ignore the Syrian dictator’s pale white skin and blue eyes and proclaim Assad’s black and dark-skinned Jewish victims the racist oppressors….
=============================================

A Landslide in Damascus

Well, the results are in, and they are quite surprising.

Syrian President Bashar Assad won a whopping 97.62 percent of the vote in a referendum aimed at “confirming” him for another 7 year term of office as Dictator of Damascus. This was actually an increase from the 97.29 percent that he received 7 years ago when he inherited the throne from his late father, Hafez Assad.

The outcome, of course, was hardly unexpected, as Assad was the only candidate allowed to run. But what is surprising is that 2.38% of Syrian voters actually had the courage not to vote ‘yes’ in this farce masquerading as democracy.

Speaking to reporters, Syrian Interior Minister Bassam Abdel Majeed said - apparently with a straight face - “This great consensus shows the political maturity of Syria and the brilliance of our democracy and multi-party system.”

In fact, what it shows is that Syria remains a backwater of authoritarianism and repression, one that is not worthy of being courted or cultivated (Nancy Pelosi please take note).

Syria is a dangerous dictatorship that has a penchant for stirring up trouble throughout the region, whether it is interfering in Lebanon, allowing fighters to cross into Iraq to join the insurgency, or hosting terror groups such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad in Damascus.

And as the results of the referendum make clear, Syria’s neighbors aren’t the only ones who are chafing under Mr. Assad and his regime.

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By lilmamzer, May 29, 2007 at 5:47 am Link to this comment

Tony Wicher’s FINKELSTEIN-CHOMSKY APARTHEID REPORT
=============================================

Apartheid, Saudi Arab Style

Jerusalem and Tel Aviv off-limits to non-Jews?

Just imagine the international outcry that would ensue if Israel were to declare Jerusalem and Tel Aviv off-limits to anyone but Jews.

Or if Italy were to close off Rome to anyone who isn’t a member of the Catholic Church.

One can only begin to imagine the fury that would erupt, as the editorial pages of the New York Times and the Washington Post would no doubt lead the charge against such rancid acts of ethnic and religious discrimination.

And yet - it is precisely this kind of prejudice that is being practiced in Saudi Arabia on a daily basis.
=============================================

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By lilmamzer, May 29, 2007 at 5:42 am Link to this comment

FINKELSTEIN-CHOMSKY REPORT
=================================
Gaza in Flames, Again

Editorial (Chicago Tribune)
 
Two summers ago there were hopes that Gaza would bloom. That it would show the Palestinians’ ability to rule themselves. That hasn’t happened.
  The internal violence and the missiles launched from Gaza at Israeli towns give little hope that a Palestinian state would be a peaceful one.
  Some people blame democracy for the chaos in Gaza. They argue that opening the parliamentary ballot to Hamas candidates was a blunder because it created the current crisis.
  But the failure in Gaza is not the fault of democracy. It’s a gross failure of Arab leadership to represent the interests of their people and establish peace and a Palestinian state.

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By lilmamzer, May 29, 2007 at 4:01 am Link to this comment

PALESTINIAN ARAB WAR CRIMES REPORT
Finkelstein and Chomsky’s Favorites
====================================
Four hurt in weekend of rocket fire

Four Israelis were wounded at the weekend by ongoing Palestinian rocket fire on the southern town of Sderot and surrounding communities.

Three people were lightly wounded on Friday evening when their house sustained a direct hit during a rocket barrage on the hard-hit working-class town.

A day later, an Israeli man was hurt after one of the Palestinian projectiles partially destroyed his apartment.

Three more rockets were fired at Sderot on Sunday morning, causing minor damage in two residential neighborhoods.

The incessant terrorist rocket fire has forced elementary, middle and high school students to resume their studies in makeshift classrooms outside Sderot.
==============================
Arab rockets destroy Jewish crops

International media outlets are usually all over stories about the destruction of Palestinian crops and olive trees by Jewish settlers, whether the allegations are substantiated or not. But the burning of huge swaths of Israeli farm land by Palestinian rockets has somehow gone completely unnoticed.

The recently ended Shavuot holiday traditionally marks the beginning of the summer harvest in Israel. Many farmers in the vicinity of the Gaza Strip, however, had little to gather.

Over the past two weeks, Palestinian terrorists operating out of Gaza have fired some 250 rockets into southern Israel. Most have failed to hit population centers, but many have caused damage in other ways, like setting alight dry fields filled with an abundant wheat harvest.

According to a report on the Israeli news portal Ynet, some 100 acres of acres of wheat were burned in recent days as a result of the incoming rockets.
===========================
===========================

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By lilmamzer, May 29, 2007 at 2:02 am Link to this comment

Tony Wicher writes:
At this point all I can say is that I stand with Norman Finkelstein, Ilan Pappe and Noam Chomsky. If they are anti-Semitic, then so am I. On the other hand, maybe they are great scholars and you are a Zionist flak.

No need to state the obvious regarding your ethnic biases. All three of your ideological heroes are antisemites. Chomsky should have stuck with linguistics; otherwise, scholarship is not what puts these far-left dead-enders on the pages of The Nation magazine. And thanks for the compliment. Zionist and proud of it.

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By Tony Wicher, May 28, 2007 at 11:46 pm Link to this comment

Re #73603 by Ernest Canning on 5/28 at 10:07 pm

Thanks, Ernest. I needed that.

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By cann4ing, May 28, 2007 at 11:07 pm Link to this comment

Tony Wicher:  Noam Chomsky, Norman Finkelstein & Ilan Pappe are great scholars. Emphraim “lefty” Pesach and lilmamzer are indeed Zionist flaks.  Nothing more needs to be said.  Time to put this post to bed.

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By Fadel Abdallah, May 28, 2007 at 10:59 pm Link to this comment

Robert! Your comment in response to comment #73441 by ITW on 5/28 at 9:56 am, was indeed very powerful and precise.

Verily, you hurled the truth and facts against the Zionists’ falsehoods; and behold, your truths knocked out the brains of their falsehoods.

Nothing more needs to be said, friend. The ball is squarely now in their tiny court. You need a rest, and let the dogs keep repeating their barking.

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By Tony Wicher, May 28, 2007 at 10:31 pm Link to this comment

#73526 by lilmamzer on 5/28 at 3:59 pm
(32 comments total)

“Oh, WE don’t but you certainly do.”

At this point all I can say is that I stand with Norman Finkelstein, Ilan Pappe and Noam Chomsky. If they are anti-Semitic, then so am I. On the other hand, maybe they are great scholars and you are a Zionist flak.

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By Robert, May 28, 2007 at 9:39 pm Link to this comment

Comment #73441 by ITW on 5/28 at 9:56 am

ITW,

United nations Security Council Resolution 242 was adopted unanimously by the UN Security Council on November 22, 1967 in the aftermath of the six day war. UNSC 242 has binding force under Article 25 of the UN Charter. BTW, the United States voted for this UN Resolution.

ITW, you stated, “It was forced through by OPEC holding a knife to the world’s throat.” The war in 1967 lasted for about 6 days & it was Israel who attacked Egypt, Syria and Jordan first.

What did OPEC do in 1967 to “coerce” the world for the vote on UN Resolution #242?

In 1967, the world was buying oil for about $1-3 dollars per barrel from OPEC and continued til 1973.

Your next point, “The next more important reason is that from 1948 to 1967 Jews, particularly Israelis were completely denied access to the holiest and most important site in the religion. Of course that is the Western Wall.”

ITW, from 1948 to 1967, there was about 1 million Christian & Moslem Palestinians living in Israel who were denied access to their holy sites,the Church of Holy Sepulchre and the Aqsa Mosque/Dome of the Rock, in the (Old City), Jerusalem. To this day Israel restricts Christian & Moslem worshipers living in the West Bank cities & villages from entering Jerusalem to worship at their repective holy sites.

Your third point, ” Most importantly is guaranteeing Israel security. The most strategic territory taken by Israel in 1967 was the Golan Heights.”

ITW, Are you saying that with todays sophisticated weapons Israel cannot be guaranteed security if it gave up the Golan Heights? The Golan Heights shield Israel from Syria… is that what you are saying?

Israel does NOT need the Golan Heights for security. Israel has the most sophisticated weapons in the region and almost maching what the U.S. has.

Once there is a formal peace treaty between all parties based on UN Resolutions and International Law, then all can have peace. An example of that is the peace treaty between Egypt & Israel. Israel withdrew from Egyption land/territory…so that was the end of their conflict. That has been over 20 years ago…!

ITW, you mentioned Israeli settlements to be vacated, but you did not tell us how many ? Is it all settlements or 5,10, 15…and so on…!

Right now Israel has about 78% of the land that was originally Palestine. If Israel abides by Internation Law (World Court Ruled 2004) & UN Resolutions, the Palestinians will have about 22% of their original land of Palestine.

The settlements in Gaza were destroyed by whom? Didn’t Israel level all the buildings when they evacuated the Israeli settlers out of there? The Palestinians had nothing but massive rubble piles, while the Israelis got compensated with hundreds of thousands of $$$ dollars that came from the American taxpayers! BTW, a large portion of the Israeli settlers who were moved out of Gaza, got re-settled in the West Bank settlements “for Jews only”. No Christians or Moslem Israeli citizens can live or enter those areas. They are NOT elligible because they are NOT Jews.

Democratic countries are supposed to honor, abide by International law, UN Resolutions and the Geneva Convention. Israel does NOT agree on these principles. The United States protects & shields Israel 99.99%...then what we have is a trail of “double-standards” on our hands and in the face of all the countries of the world.

The United States went to war and attacked Iraq because Iraq did not abide by UN Resolutions. Why should Israel be immune from the same standard that was applied to Iraq?

Surely something can be worked out where Jews can free go and visit their holy site the “Western Wall and were Christians & Moslem Israeli citizens can also have that priviledge.

There will be no lasting peace that is NOT based on fairness,TRUTH and justice.

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By Inherit The Wind, May 28, 2007 at 7:49 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Peter RV:
When I read this I was dumb-founded:
“His second question,
“Or, why is the right of self-determination only applied to people in the area known as Israel, Gaza and Left Bank?”,
astonished me but for different reasons. The key word here is “only”.
Is it possible that ITW is not aware of the main aspect of our era- which is the self determination?
Has he never heard of Slovenia,  Slovakia, Montenegro, East Timor, Latvia Estonia, Armenia, Moldavia etc..etc?
Then, it ocurred to me that some eighteen years have elapsed since the Soviet Union desintegrated.
If ITW is a teenager, all these events have absolutely no meaning for him. He would then be simply ‘tabula rasa’ -a perfect patsy for indoctrination.”

This is as totally irrelevant and insulting mis-representation.  I am far from a teenager, and was well into my 30’s when the Soviet Union collapsed.  I have heard of, and have even been to some of these places since the collapse.

But more importantly, it is irrelevant to my point, because I was specifically and explicitly referring to the minorities in the Arab nations that stretch from Morocco to Syria and Yemen.  Other than very small places like Dubai, they are all excluded from participation in their government, and are all second-class citizens, usually barred from practicing their religions.

The point you are trying to obfuscate is that Israel’s neighbors and enemies are not being held to the standard Israel is being held to.  My objection to TW is as simple as that.

H.L. Mencken was funny, clever, wise, a pure iconoclast, and still an SOB.  But that was his stock in trade, being an SOB.

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By lilmamzer, May 28, 2007 at 4:59 pm Link to this comment

Tony Wicher: “Please, let us not confuse real anti-Semitism with legitimate criticism of Israel.”

Oh, WE don’t but you certainly do.

Tony Wicher: “At this point I feel inclined to extend an olive branch to lil and Lefty. At least we have some common ground. We oppose anti-Semitism.”

I spat my iced tea out when I read that. We have no common ground. You are a bigot to the core, Tony Wicher. You are fundamentally unable to accept the idea of Jewish sovereignty in in their own homeland, and you employ classic antisemitic libels to support your fallacious and repellent positions. I do oppose antisemitism. You employ it.

Tony Wicher: “As a member of the ACLU, I’m very concerned about it.”

I bet you don’t see the irony in that statement.

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By Tony Wicher, May 28, 2007 at 4:57 pm Link to this comment

Re #73521 by lilmamzer on 5/28 at 3:51 pm

Right. And there was no Nakba.

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By lilmamzer, May 28, 2007 at 4:51 pm Link to this comment

FYI Tony Wicher - Israel IS a democracy, and the majority in that nation prefer to maintain a Jewish majority.

Democracy rules. Self-determination for Jews. They have their one sovereign nation, and it will stay that way, your efforts to dispossess the Jews notwithstanding.

Arabs want to make a 23rd Muslim/Arab majority state? Fine, as long as they play nice with their neighbors.

End of story.

You know where you can put your olive branch.

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By Tony Wicher, May 28, 2007 at 4:42 pm Link to this comment

At this point I feel inclined to extend an olive branch to lil and Lefty. At least we have some common ground. We oppose anti-Semitism. As a member of the ACLU, I’m very concerned about it.
Please, let us not confuse real anti-Semitism with legitimate criticism of Israel.

I also have some strange thoughts about Israel:
Israel was born in sin (the Nakba). But Israel can redeem itself by taking in the Palestinians and being reborn as a democracy. They have so much to offer. Then they will really be what Lefty and lil think they are now, a shining beacon of democracy and freedom in the world. I think it is within their power to do this.

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By Tony Wicher, May 28, 2007 at 3:53 pm Link to this comment

Re: #73398 by lilmamzer on 5/28 at 6:37 am
(30 comments total)

Tony Wicher writes:

“One further thought: I am trying to dissipate the illusion that that the United States is a naive but basically well-intentioned tool of Israel, the idea that “Jews own and control the media to manipulate the American people and also manipulate U.S. politics through AIPAC” Not that this isn’t true”

You seem to be saying the idea that Israel (“The Jews”) controls and manipulates the United States through the Jew-owned media, and is, in your words, an “illusion”. Then, in the very next sentence, you say “Not that this isn’t true”.

Well, which is it? Fact or the crudest antisemitic conspiracy theory about Jews pulling the strings of the world?

No need to answer, that was a rhetorical question.

================================
Lil,

I think I do need to answer you, non-rhetorically, so that you will understand clearly how I can say these two things which you regard as contradictory. Jews are very influential in this country, as they deserve to be. However, many of them are also passionate Jewish nationalists, and that undoubtedly does affect their judgment, their editorial decisions - and their votes, if they are elected officials. I believe this attachment is unqualified and morally blind. It both enables immoral Israeli behavior, and results in decisions which promote the interests of Israel but are against the best interests of the United States. For this reason those who say Zionists have “divided loyalties” are right. I’m not saying that Jews as such have divided loyalties, but that Zionists as such do. Their primary criterion for what U.S. policy should be seems to be whether they think it is good for Israel; and it is secondary whether or not it is good for the United States. For this reason many Americans are suspicious of “Jews in high places.” Otherwise intelligent and perspicacious Jews would have opposed getting the U.S. into the Iraq war, but since it was perceived as helping Israel against its enemies, Zionists were with Bush and Cheney. Now many of them are trying to dissociate themselves and say they never had anything to do with these murdering fools, but I don’t think the American people will buy this. Why did Senator Lieberman lose the Democratic primary in Connecticut, and why does he vote with the Republicans on the Iraq war? Because he thinks it’s good for Israel. Everybody knows this.

So that is what I say is true about “Jewish manipulation of Americans”. Zionists are affecting U.S. foreign policy in ways inimical to the real interests of the American people as a whole. That is not an illusion.

Now here is what I said is an illusion: “the idea that the United States is a naive but basically well-intentioned tool of Israel.”  U.S. and British imperialists have worked together with Zionists since the days of the Balfour Declaration. They have supported Zionism and Israel because it serves their own imperial interests in the region. U.S. and British imperialism have always been Israel’s protectors. Without this larger context, the illusion is that the American people or the United States is being manipulated and misled by clever Jews in high places, and this I agree with “lil” is just the sort of thing the Nazis used to say. I think the illusion that misled the German people into Naziism back in the 30’s may have been nearly identical. When you put things in their proper context, the American people should be worried that anti-Democratic forces in their own country are manipulating them - the same forces that got the Bush administration into power - not Jews and not Israel. Same thing with the German people in the 30’s. Obviously, what they should have been worried about was their own Nazis bent on taking over, not Jews. I am trying to innoculate the American people against the same thing happening here.

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By Peter RV, May 28, 2007 at 3:49 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Ref.#73326 by Inherit the Wind
ITW asks two questions, to which nobody cares (or dares) to give him clear answers.
The first of them goes like this:
“Why is Saudi or Sudanese apartheid OK?“presumably implying ‘when Israeli is not’.
Having never heard anything about Saudi or Sudanese apartheid I was dumbfounded.
His second question,
“Or, why is the right of self-determination only applied to people in the area known as Israel, Gaza and Left Bank?”,
astonished me but for different reasons. The key word here is “only”.
  Is it possible that ITW is not aware of the main aspect of our era- which is the self determination?
Has he never heard of Slovenia,Slovakia,Montenegro,East Timor,Latvia Estonia, Armenia,Moldavia etc..etc?
Then, it ocurred to me that some eighteen years have elapsed since the Soviet Union desintegrated.
If ITW is a teenager, all these events have absolutely no meaning for him. He would then be simply ‘tabula rasa’ -a perfect patsy for indoctrination.

P.S.Incidentally, H.L.Menken is probably the greatest journalist-philosopher America has ever had.
It is true he didn’t like much the Jews, but one cannot please everybody all the time if one wants to say something of substance.
Calling him an S.o.b. is quite out of order.

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By lilmamzer, May 28, 2007 at 12:25 pm Link to this comment

Lefty, I don’t know who they are. It kind of doesn’t matter. Arab or not, they are bigots and old-school anti-semites - witness Tony Wicher’s classic Jews-controlling-the-media-controlling-America meme. You can’t get any more classic than that.

I suppose he could also throw in the old Jews-baking-matza-in-Christian-babies’-blood libel, too. Wouldn’t surprise me.

Well, my Zionist Conspiracy manipulation orders just came through on the Jew-phone. Gotta run - it’s tough to be a puppet-master, you know? So little time to left to pursue apartheid and racism. Ciao.

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By Inherit The Wind, May 28, 2007 at 10:56 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Robert,
In response to your question. Yes, I do support a 2-state solution, and no, I do not support an unconditional withdrawal to the 1967 borders.
There are three reasons.
1) The least important reason is that Resolution 242 was about as honest a resolution as the election of George W. Bush in 2000 and 2004. It was forced through by OPEC holding a knife to the world’s throat.  It was coerced, not an honest vote.  It doesn’t represent a reasonable solution to the situation, nor does it recognize that those territories were lost by the aggressor in the 1967 War, the aggressor whose stated purpose for the aggression was the annihilation of Israel.

But it can be and should be a starting point for negotiation.

1) The next more important reason is that from 1948 to 1967 Jews, particularly Israelis were completely denied access to the holiest and most important site in the religion. Of course that is the Western Wall.  It is unrealistic to expect them to ever cede that site again except as they did in the past, by extreme force.  Moslems would die by the millions to protect Mecca, because that is their holiest site.  Christians died by the millions to try to take back the Christian holy sites, and did not cede them either without horrendous bloodshed.  Jews will do the same. Any plan that removes the Western Wall from Jewish control, or worse, prevents Jews from accessing is DOA and isn’t even worth discussing.

3) Most importantly is guaranteeing Israeli security.  The most strategic territory taken by Israel in 1967 was the Golan Heights.  It is from here that Syria can rain down very deadly attacks on Israel. 242 would return the Golan to Syria and that is absolutely a non-starter.  Israel might as well agree to turn over its nuclear arsenal to Syria. Don’t expect to happen unless there are drastic changes in the Syrian government and an international force guarantees the de-militarization of the Golan.

I have no objection to removing settlers from West Bank lands. I realize that the radical right in Israel will respond vehemently, perhaps even violently.  But if a sound, sustainable peace can be crafted by removing them, so be it.

The sad part is that when some settlements were vacated in Gaza, the Palestinians destroyed them, rather than making use of them and keeping them productive.  That alone is what terrifies Israelis about a one-state solution. What has been built will be destroyed for no good reason.

There was a time when most Arabs and Jews lived in peace, in Israel and around it.  A few dedicated monsters have worked to shatter that network of personal relationships.  It won’t be rebuilt in this generation, and possibly not the next.  That factor must be figured into all calculations about the region.

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By Tony Wicher, May 28, 2007 at 9:32 am Link to this comment

“#73153 by Peter RV on 5/27 at 2:43 am
(Unregistered commenter)

Well,TruthDig Editor, aren’t three days enough to check if my comment ( to T.Wicher’s) is fit to print?”

Peter,

If you register with Truthdig, your comments will appear immediately. Just click on the registration link.

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By lilmamzer, May 28, 2007 at 9:04 am Link to this comment

<img>http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?blobcol=urlimage&blobheader=image/jpeg&blobheadername1=Cache-Control&blobheadervalue1=max-age=300&blobkey=id&blobtable=JPImageSpotlight&blobwhere=1123495332804&ssbinary=true&timestamp=0528155848</img>

A Sderot woman reacts to a Kassam hit

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By lilmamzer, May 28, 2007 at 8:03 am Link to this comment

Hey kids, do you kow what time it is?

It’s Cognitive Dissonance Time at Truthdig.

Yes, that’s right, it’s time to inject some reality into the simplistic dogma of those infected with Israel Derangement Syndrome (and you all know who you are…and so do we).

We’ve already looked at the homosexual interest group preferring to demonize Israelis over the gross human rights abuses of those they defend. That’s cognitive dissonance.

Here’s another one. There’s a very powerful Arab named Bashar Assad who just happens to be the dictator of Syria. He gives safe haven and financial and materal support to Khaled Meshaal, the head of Hamas, the genocidal Jew-hating Palestinian Arab terror group AND governing party. Turns out this Bashar Assad is very fair-skinned (oh go ahead, call him a White Man, you know you want to) and has very blue eyes.

So here we have a blue-eyed White Man leading the fight to exterminate the Jews, and the current favorite target are the Jews of Sderot in southern Israel. Many Jews in Sderot are immigrants from Ethiopia. Care to guess what they look like? Black people, yes, Negroes, African-israelis, whatever you want to call them. And most of their neighbors are brown-skinned. You get the picture now.

But the Israel Derangement Syndrome sufferers (and you know who you are, and so do we) can’t help demonizing these victims of Palestinian Arab terror as “racist” and of practicing “apartheid”.

Twisted, isn’t it?

That’s Cognitive Dissonance.

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By Robert, May 28, 2007 at 7:54 am Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind,

After reading your latest posted comments on this thread, I noticed that you seem to be leaning towards a “two-state” solution regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

I asked you the following in my comment #71053 on 5/19:

“ITW, your civility is appreciated. We are all bigots on this earth.

What do you think about Israel pulling back to the pre-June 1967 borders & UN Resolution 242, 338, 194?”

AND

In comment #70995 on 5/18:

“I just wonder if “ITW” agrees & supports UN Resolution 242, which calls for Israel to withdraw from all occupied territories, including East-Jerusalem, to its pre-June 1967 borders.”


ITW, you left this forum/thread without a response…and you resurfaced yesterday. Is it possible for you to responds to the above question(s)? It surely would be nice to know where you stand on these important issues relating to this ongoing conflict.

BTW, welcome back to this thread discussion.

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By lilmamzer, May 28, 2007 at 7:37 am Link to this comment

Tony Wicher writes:

“One further thought: I am trying to dissipate the illusion that that the United States is a naive but basically well-intentioned tool of Israel, the idea that “Jews own and control the media to manipulate the American people and also manipulate U.S. politics through AIPAC” Not that this isn’t true”

You seem to be saying the idea that Israel (“The Jews”) controls and manipulates the United States through the Jew-owned media, and is, in your words, an “illusion”. Then, in the very next sentence, you say “Not that this isn’t true”.

Well, which is it? Fact or the crudest antisemitic conspiracy theory about Jews pulling the strings of the world?

No need to answer, that was a rhetorical question.

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By lilmamzer, May 28, 2007 at 7:29 am Link to this comment

PALESTINIAN ARAB WAR CRIMES CONTINUE…....
===========================================
Israeli Man Killed in Palestinian Rocket Attack on Sderot -

Oshri Oz, 36, of Hod Hasharon was killed Sunday when a Palestinian rocket fired from Gaza hit the car in which he was driving in Sderot, the second person killed by a Palestinian rocket in less than a week. 22 Palestinian rockets fell on or near Sderot over the weekend.
The Palestinian rocket that ended Oz’s life landed 30 centimeters from his vehicle, spraying him with shrapnel and fatally wounding him. Oz, a computer technician, traveled to Sderot several times a week as part of his work. Oz is survived by his pregnant wife and three-year-old daughter.
  Six Palestinian rockets hit Sderot on Sunday. One slammed into a newly-built community center. Another struck the home of the Hazan family - the second time a rocket has hit their house. David Hazan and his 15-year-old son were both at home when they heard the siren sound, and managed to rush into the security room. A moment after they closed the door to the room, a Kassam rocket scored a direct hit on their house. (Jerusalem Post)
==============================================

NOTE TO Inherit The wind

you wrote:  “Since the Palestinians cannot seem to deal with each other without death squads and suicide bombers, why would any rational person think they would not extend such violence to Jews?”

They already rain violence down on the Jews. No need to wait for their own (failed) state for the fun to begin.

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By Inherit The Wind, May 28, 2007 at 5:51 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“Impeachment is my other major issue. I have been arguing for in many forums. I believe nothing less than impeachment is necessary to fully repudiate Bush imperialism and restore constitutional democracy. I’m glad we are singing in the same choir on this. I think every good citizen who has any understanding of what democracy is, including Republicans, should join us in defending our Constitution. I am hopeful that ongoing investigations into the Attorney Generals office and other investigations will paint such a vivid picture of subversion that there will be enough Republicans to impeach and convict.”

TW:  On this we are in 100% agreement.  It think it’s necessary to heal our democracy that George W. Bush and Richard Cheney be impeached and legally ousted.  I don’t care if they leave via conviction in an impeachment trial, or do a Nixon: Resign because the votes to convict are there. 

Just so long as they leave before their term is up, in the disgrace they so richly deserve.

That should then be followed by federal criminal felony charges, which should be easy to prove, followed by conviction and the maximum sentence imposed.

Then they should be turned over the International Court of Justice for trial there, where conviction is very probable, but more importantly, a Presidential pardon from a future GOP President won’t apply.

Do I sound vindictive? I believe they are extreme criminals and the nation and the world needs to be protected from them, and by strictly legal means.  Also, Americans need to know that their leaders cannot and will not get away with trampling on their rights, on international law, and on starting illegal and immoral wars.

Notice that it is possible to be Progressive, which I am, to support Israel’s continued existence, which I do, yet to vehemently oppose the actions of the current Israeli government, which I also do, as well as the Bush Tyranny, yet not ignore the failures of the Palestinians in this mess as well.

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By Tony Wicher, May 27, 2007 at 11:25 pm Link to this comment

Re #73326 by Inherit The Wind on 5/27 at 7:01 pm

Impeachment is my other major issue. I have been arguing for in many forums. I believe nothing less than impeachment is necessary to fully repudiate Bush imperialism and restore constitutional democracy. I’m glad we are singing in the same choir on this. I think every good citizen who has any understanding of what democracy is, including Republicans, should join us in defending our Constitution. I am hopeful that ongoing investigations into the Attorney Generals office and other investigations will paint such a vivid picture of subversion that there will be enough Republicans to impeach and convict.

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By Inherit The Wind, May 27, 2007 at 8:01 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I’m tired of seeing the same arguments again and again.

But TW does not address a key question, but states:
“I want my country to stop supporting Israeli apartheid. “

That question, which has been stated in various forms is:

Why is Saudi or Sudanese apartheid OK? 

Or, why is the right of self-determination only applied to peoples in the area known as Israel, Gaza and the Left Bank? 

Why does TW refuse to strenuously demand the application of this principle to the oppressed minorities in almost every nation in the Arab world, including most of Israel’s neighbors?

The other issue I have with TW is that he seems to think that simply forcing Israel to allow every Palestinian full Israeli citizenship will result in a United States-like democracy, and not the immediate suppression and creation of apartheid with Jews as the oppressed.  Since the Palestinians cannot seem to deal with each other without death squads and suicide bombers, why would any rational person think they would not extend such violence to Jews? 

And if such violence against Jews is inevitable, then obviously TW’s one-nation solution is not viable.

H.L. Mencken once said:
“There is always a well-known solution to every human problem—neat, plausible, and wrong.”

He might have been an SOB but he was very right about that.  Mencken understood that neat, plausible solutions usually ignore inconvenient facts that render them useless.  TW has consistently ignored key facts in the actions of Palestinians over the last 35 years that renders his one-state plan useless, beginning with Black September’s attack at the Munich Olympics on September 4, 1972.

Oh, and let’s be clear about one thing. I don’t believe anyone here sees Dick Cheney as anything other than the embodiment of evil, and I include everyone in that group from Lefty and Lilmamzer to Fadel and Robert.  I certainly see him that way and desperately want him impeached even more than I want George W. Bush impeached..

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