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Wisdom of the Terrorist’s Son

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Posted on Sep 19, 2010
AP / Eyal Warshavsky

Supporters of the murdered extremist rabbi gather at his grave in Jeusalem in 2005.

By Chris Hedges

Those who embrace violence, whether in the form of acts of terrorism or acts of war, are necrophiliacs. They worship death. They sacrifice life, including at times their own, for the heady intoxication that comes with becoming an angel of destruction. And in the wake of their fury and violence they not only leave grief, pain and suffering, but they perpetuate new cycles of revenge and murder like bad karma. These killers are presented to us in many forms. They come packaged as patriots and heroes, wearing rows of medals like David Petraeus or Stanley McChrystal, or they stumble onto the stage as bearded villains wearing suicide belts. But they are all killers. They all drink the same, dark elixir of death. They all partake of the same drug. They all take life in the name of high national or religious ideals. And they are all the scourge of the human race. 

Zak Ebrahim, with whom I spoke in Philadelphia, knows intimately the old, sad tale of retribution, violence and revenge. His father is El Sayid Nosair, who, on Nov. 5, 1990, in New York City, assassinated Rabbi Meir Kahane, the head of the Kach Party, labeled by the United States, Canada and the European Union as a terrorist organization. The party was outlawed by the Israeli government in 1988 for inciting racism. Kahane’s armed followers, whom I often encountered heavily armed at improvised roadblocks in the occupied Palestinian territories, were responsible for the murders and beatings of dozens of unarmed Palestinians. They held rallies in Jerusalem where they chanted “Death to Arabs!” And to many Palestinians, as well as many Muslims in the Arab world, Ebrahim’s father, currently in ADX Florence Supermax Prison in Florence, Colo., is celebrated as a hero. But to his son, who was then 7, he became something else. He became the father who disappeared because murder for a cause was more important than a life with his wife and three small children. And if anyone understands the line demarcating seductive ideologies of death and the fragility and sanctity of systems of life, it is Ebrahim.

His father, like many other immigrants arriving in the United States as young adults, struggled. When he first lived in Pittsburgh, a woman who was thinking of converting to Islam accused him of rape. The charges were eventually dropped due to lack of evidence. But it made him wary and distrustful of American culture. The family moved to Jersey City, N.J., where Nosair’s cousin offered him a job. A few months later he was severely electrocuted. He was unable to work for weeks. He fell into a deep depression.

“He spent a lot of his time sitting next to his radiator in the living room with his Koran and praying,” Ebrahim said. “Those two things, which were things he had not expected when he immigrated, led him towards a group he felt more comfortable with, which was Muslims. Unfortunately, that led him to Sheik Omar Abdul Rahman.”

Rahman, a blind Egyptian cleric who was implicated in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, was the leader of a radical mosque in Jersey City. He is serving a life sentence at the Butner Medical Center, which is part of the Butner Federal Correctional Institution in Butner, N.C. The 1993 attack killed six people, including a pregnant woman, and injured hundreds more.

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“I remember him as being a very normal, Egyptian Muslim father,” said Ebrahim, 27, in fluent, unaccented English. “He was very funny, always trying to make us laugh. We lived in a happy home. My parents didn’t argue. He was never violent with us. But over the course of that last year, when he started going to the Masjid Al-Salaam mosque in Jersey City, he drifted away from us. He was spending more and more time with this group of Muslim men. My mother noticed that he was starting to become initially a little more fundamentalist and then he announced he wanted to go to Afghanistan to fight in the Afghan war. He brought my grandfather here from Egypt to try and convince him to take the family back to Egypt with him so that he could go fight there. My mother was very much against him leaving to fight in this war.”

Nosair’s father strictly forbade his son to go to Afghanistan and told him his duty was to remain at home and support his family.

“He was spending more and more time at the mosque,” said Ebrahim, who was born Abdulaziz El-Sayed Nosair but changed his name after the Kahane assassination. “The mosque had a small store on the second floor of the building that sold Islamic materials, Korans and posters, which they used to raise funds for the war in Afghanistan. I am not sure when the turning point was, but when his father told him your family is your responsibility, you need to stay here and take care of them, and he was left with this need to make a change, to help his fellow Muslims, or however he saw it, he decided to go a different route. He decided to target people in the United States.”

Shortly before the assassination, Nosair, who repaired air conditioners in New York City’s courts, took his young son to a shooting range in Long Island. The range, it turned out, was under surveillance by the FBI. The father and son practiced firing automatic rifles.


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By Inherit The Wind, September 26, 2010 at 9:00 pm Link to this comment

“Wishy-Washy hard core Zionists”?  A.S. that’s a good oxymoron—kinda like “Moderate radical jihadi”.

Nice to see your sense of humor is still working!

(BTW, Robert’s idea of “funny” is to call Leefeller “Weefeller”—that’s a real knee-slapper!)

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By Leefeller, September 26, 2010 at 7:13 pm Link to this comment

Well now…... it is unanimous, peace is not an option! Yes ...I see hate and its ugly red baboon ass behind the bars.  Forget I ever hoped for Peace, a pipe dream anyway!

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By Arabian Sinbad, September 26, 2010 at 4:41 pm Link to this comment

By Robert, September 26 at 2:16 pm

You’re one of the best contributors to enlightenment on Truthdig. Your references to articles written by good, moderate and conscientious Jews, which are not published in mainstream media, are very important in bringing depth and perspective to the discourse.

I have noticed that you’ve been under attack by some washy-washy hard core Zionists! Please ignore them and continue to do the excellent work you’ve been doing for a long time

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By Leefeller, September 26, 2010 at 4:20 pm Link to this comment

Not much has been heard about this, the FBI reportedly raided several anti war organizations because they are reputed to be potential terrorists havens, supposedly working with bad guys?

Is it possible Robert is working as a special moron for the FBI, which means one does not need to be very smart to be in the FBI or support Peace….... Peace meaning anti war and not supporting the troops?

Sometimes Robert reminds me of my computer, because when I ask what the hell is it doing, I get incoherent answers almost just like Roberts.

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By Inherit The Wind, September 26, 2010 at 10:34 am Link to this comment

Leefeller:

You have your answer.  On any subject at all, whether it’s the BP oil spill or Sarah Palin’s endorsement of O’Donnell, or whether electric cars are viable, Robert’s opinion is always the same:

Israel MUST be driven back to the 1967 borders for starters and then, if possible, driven out of existence.

Ask him if he likes vanilla or chocolate ice cream or whether the Yankees will repeat as World Series champions and that will be the ONLY answer you get.  I’ll bet if you ask him what he’s having for dinner that will be the same answer.

I’m no shrink but there’s got to be SOME description or name for such an extreme obsessive compulsive one-trackism.

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By Robert, September 26, 2010 at 10:16 am Link to this comment

By Leefeller, September 26 at 12:52 pm

“Robert, do you have an opinion on this article about peace? Now it is possible you may have posted an opinion on peace, .........but with all the cut and pasty flack you posted, I must have missed it?”

~~~~~~~~~~~

Hey weefeller ... your hogwash level is on the high side ... you need some DRANO “industrial strength” NOT via mouth… BTW!!!

If you can check out below post on “Peace”:

By Robert, September 22 at 2:52 pm

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By Leefeller, September 26, 2010 at 8:52 am Link to this comment

Robert, do you have an opinion or comment on the article? It would be nice to hear from the horses head for once instead of the other end.

Sure Israel sucks, the abuses perpetuated on the world suck,  but who sucks more one can only concluded from saturation instead of argument from Roberts posting. It seems people would never know that anything else sucked from reality of the monovision empty minds of the world.

Robert, do you have an opinion on this article about peace? Now it is possible you may have posted an opinion on peace, .........but with all the cut and pasty flack you posted, I must have missed it?

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By Robert, September 26, 2010 at 6:00 am Link to this comment

The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict


Published by Jews for Justice in the Middle East


“Jews for Justice has made this excellent resource available to people around the world.


As the periodic bloodshed continues in the Middle East, the search for an equitable solution must come to grips with the root cause of the conflict. The conventional wisdom is that, even if both sides are at fault, the Palestinians are irrational “terrorists” who have no point of view worth listening to. Our position, however, is that the Palestinians have a real grievance: their homeland for over a thousand years was taken, without their consent and mostly by force, during the creation of the state of Israel. And all subsequent crimes — on both sides — inevitably follow from this original injustice.

This paper outlines the history of Palestine to show how this process occurred and what a moral solution to the region’s problems should consist of. If you care about the people of the Middle East, Jewish and Arab, you owe it to yourself to read this account of the other side of the historical record.


Introduction


The standard Zionist position is that they showed up in Palestine in the late 19th century to reclaim their ancestral homeland. Jews bought land and started building up the Jewish community there. They were met with increasingly violent opposition from the Palestinian Arabs, presumably stemming from the Arabs’ inherent anti-Semitism. The Zionists were then forced to defend themselves and, in one form or another, this same situation continues up to today.

The problem with this explanation is that it is simply not true, as the documentary evidence in this booklet will show. What really happened was that the Zionist movement, from the beginning, looked forward to a practically complete dispossession of the indigenous Arab population so that Israel could be a wholly Jewish state, or as much as was possible. Land bought by the Jewish National Fund was held in the name of the Jewish people and could never be sold or even leased back to Arabs (a situation which continues to the present).

The Arab community, as it became increasingly aware of the Zionists’ intentions, strenuously opposed further Jewish immigration and land buying because it posed a real and imminent danger to the very existence of Arab society in Palestine. Because of this opposition, the entire Zionist project never could have been realized without the military backing of the British. The vast majority of the population of Palestine, by the way, had been Arabic since the seventh century A.D. (Over 1200 years)”

*********


This post needs to be brought back up to the top…its the main root of the conflict.

Click on link for the rest which is published/authored by Jews for Justice:

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html

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By Robert, September 26, 2010 at 5:45 am Link to this comment

ITW Wrote:

“Robert’s hatred down to his toes of everything about Israel and therefore about all Jews has been clear and obvious for years.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Well let see what ITW had to say…Hmmm…NO reponse on “Ultra-Zionist” lie and now he is accusing me of hating Jews…And that is another lie from ITW !

ITW’s lies & false accusation about me are nothing new. Most of what I post is/are authored by Jews who are on the side of peace, justice, humanity, fairness, human rights & freedom.

ITW you are a damn hypocrite and a liar! I will not waste time on your Israel’s PR & damage control attempts!

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By Inherit The Wind, September 25, 2010 at 8:46 pm Link to this comment

Robert never learns.  There’s a thread called “Party of Nonsense”.  Perhaps it should apply to him.

Robert still thinks that the way to peace is for Israel to totally acquiesce to his demands, oops. the Palestinian demand and THEN they can sit down to peace negotiations!  Unconditional surrender and then we’ll talk.

That’s usually the position one takes when one is about to crush one’s enemy (such as the Allies in the spring of 1945 in Europe)...not when one is occupied!

But that won’t stop Robert. He thinks my positions have altered because of the torrent of nonsense that he and other extremists claim as fact, rather than my own ability to see what’s happening.

So Robert et al are hobos riding on the train, fooling themselves that they are driving the damn thing.

Robert’s hatred down to his toes of everything about Israel and therefore about all Jews has been clear and obvious for years. He pretends to “care” about the plight of Palestinians, but somehow this never translates into caring about the plight of other unfortunate people, whether that misfortune is due to tyranny or natural disaster.  No, Robert doesn’t care about THEM the way he “cares” about Palestinians.  Why?  Because they don’t have Israel and Jews to blame as the cause of their troubles.

He knows no other misery than the plight of Palestinians viz a viz Israel, not even their plight at the hands of fellow Muslims and Arabs.

So the only conclusion that can be reached is that Robert doesn’t actually give a shit about the Palestinian plight, real as it is, but only how he can blame Israel and Jews for it.

But oh, No! He’s not anti-Semitic!

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By Robert, September 25, 2010 at 6:34 pm Link to this comment

For Ole time sake…ITW. I did condemn the killing/murder on all sides! See below. BTW, ITW responded to this post!


By Robert, February 4 at 2:57 pm


***

Shingo, Patrick,


I do remember ITW’s initial start on TD. I remember asking him if he supported Israel’s occupation of the Palestinians.

Two days later, I asked him again, if it were possible for him to answer the above question? ITW, responded that Israel should pull back from the West Bank for a peace settlement.

I then followed up and asked ITW if he meant that Israel should completely pull back to its pre-June 1967 borders for a final peace settlement.

ITW, did not agree to a complete pull back and discussed the Israeli settlements, Jews worshiping at the Wall and Israel’s security…etc…

I do remember pointing out to ITW that Christians & Moslems who lived in Israel, as citizens, pre-1967 conflict were NOT able to worship in the Holy Places in East Jerusalem & Bethlehem…and that it was NOT just Jews who could not go to their Holy Places pre-1967.

Also, to this day, Israel & its brutal IDF prevent Christians & Moslems who live in the West Bank from entering East Jerusalem for their worship/prayers at their Holy Places. This is currently happening NOW ! And has been for several years!

On the other hand, Jewish settlers who live anywhere in the West Bank are NOT prevented at all. They have their own paved roads that Christians & Moslems cannot use and are prevented from using. Jewish settlers living in “For Jews Only Settlements” can be in East Jerusalem from 15 - 30 minutes depending on their location. Palestinian Christian/Moslem/Arab are subject to go through Israel’s Apartheid checkpoints/gates when trying to visit relatives in another village/town in the West Bank. Their journey may take several hours if they are lucky enough to get through the IDF’s deliberate harassment/humiliations.

Arab/Moslem countries agree that Israel has a right to exist in its pre-June 1967 borders for a final peace settlement. East Jerusalem for the Palestinians & West Jerusalem for Israel.

I think and support that Jerusalem “East& West” could be an open city for ALL Holy Places open and easily accessed by All the respective religions. No one should be prevented from going to worship. Everyone should go/follow through the same policy/agreement.

Israel/Israelis know this…that pulling back to the pre-June 1967 borders is a good & feasible solution to the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. So long as the United States does NOT make them pull back, the Israelis are NOT going to do anything. Its all about building more settlements, stealing more land, resources and active ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people…and of course…non-stop active policy of bringing more zionist settlers in from other countries to settle…all paid for by the ole American taxpayers.

Yes, ITWhas modified his positions since his initial start on TD, mostly due to so many facts about Apartheid Israel & its IDF killers that have been posted on TD by so many posters over the years.

I condemn the killing/murder of all innocent civilians whether from Iran, Israel and other ME regimes.

The deliberate murder and abuse of children, women and civilians must be stopped and condemned by all people who support basic humanity and equal human rights.

Just imagine if Iran’s army personnel/police went around slapping/abusing Jewish women, shooting/murdering 9 year old Jewish boys/girls from their 20,000-30,000 thousand Jewish citizens…Our American zionist controlled News Media would be flashing “NEWS ALERTS” 7 days per week/24 hours per day. Notice that we don’t hear much and/or anything when Israel’s IDF commit these crimes against defenseless Palestinian women/children…as documented by the IDF confessions which I posted a couple of days ago.

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By Robert, September 25, 2010 at 6:23 pm Link to this comment

One more time…for the record…did I call ITW “Ultra-Zionist”? Please provide the quote if you are telling the truth!


“Robert insists I’m an Ultra-Zionist.”

“Robert has called me just about every name in the book, cursed me out and told wild and vile lies about me.  How can he be for justice and truth?”

I must admit…I had to laugh… Really ITW! Is he serious?

ITW has called me a Nazi, Jew hater, Israel hater, anti-semitic and much more…just the usual dirty attacks tactics ... perhaps to sway readers from reading what I post.

I have never called ITW an “Ultra-Zionist” as he stated above & I quote. If ITW is telling the truth, I defy him to quote it and post it on TD….ASAP.

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By karlof1, September 25, 2010 at 4:42 pm Link to this comment

Mr Hedges,

Perhaps you’ve recently seen this question of mine:

How are people wanting to remain Civilized going to defeat the Barbarians without becoming Barbarians themselves?

Just War Theory was devised to absolve those who killed in its pursuit from their sins. But there are many who think Just War Theory is invalid, false, including myself.

And furthermore, a related point: Humans must kill to live, that is our nature, as it is with most lifeforms. Being Civilized is defined as refraining from killing or exploiting one’s own species. 

Is there any grey area between the either/or of being Civilized or Barbaric? It is possible to be Barbaric and then become Civilized—being and becoming—which seems to imply a transitional grey area.

Your thoughts?

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By Inherit The Wind, September 25, 2010 at 1:13 pm Link to this comment

Leefeller:
Of COURSE there are iniquities on both sides, not just one.  But you’ll never get Robert to admit that (or walterbard for that matter). So as long as the Roberts and the walterbards are in charge of each side, demanding TOTAL concession as a pre-condition of peace, there can’t be peace.

BOTH sides must be willing to acknowledge what they’ve done wrong. Constant arguing that one side is pure as driven snow and the other as evil as Satan’s heart will keep this war going.

Notice Robert’s continued dishonesty in pretending two things:
1) The Palestinian side has never done anything wrong.
2) I have defended EVERYTHING Israel does, right or wrong—which is what an “Ultra-Zionist” does, Robert.

Robert KNOWS I am highly critical of Israeli policy (especially lately) but he dismisses this completely as if non-existent and lumps me constantly with his counterparts like walterbard, for whom Israel can do no wrong and who jumped on the “Ground Zero Mosque” like flies on shit.

BTW, it’s no surprise that Robert doesn’t post for me.  He posts for those he can fool by, at best, leaving out half the story, and, at worst posting unsupported positions as “fact”.

He STILL has never had an original idea in his head that went beyond cursing me out and calling me names—or calling Leefeller “weefeller”.  Genius? NOT!

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By Arabian Sinbad, September 25, 2010 at 12:28 pm Link to this comment

Generally speaking, I salute Chris Hedges for telling the tragic story of El Sayid Nosair and his family. I even salute his son Ebrahim for transcending the human nature and the laws of equity in revenge and opting instead for peaceful activism.

I particularly liked Hedges opening paragraph as he said, “Those who embrace violence, whether in the form of acts of terrorism or acts of war, are necrophiliacs. They worship death. They sacrifice life, including at times their own, for the heady intoxication that comes with becoming an angel of destruction.”

However, I beg to disagree with Hedges when calling El Sayid Nosair a “terrorist” and thus entitling his piece “Wisdom of the Terrorist Son.” What El Sayid Nosair did was at worse a one man act of counter-terrorism against a notorious terrorist responsible for the killing and terrorizing so many of his coreligionists. Nosair’s act at best was a case of a man with a deep sense of justice who lost his patience with many years of injustices and decided to take things in his hands.

Chris Hedges should know better than any one else that one party’s freedom fighter is the opponent’s party terrorist and the reverse is also true. He also should know that Israel was founded on terrorism, and that, at least, three of its notorious terrorists rose so high in positions to become Prime Ministers in this terrorist entity.

Moreover, it’s Zionists who introduced a culture of terrorism to the Middle East. Before the Zionist encroachment into this area, the word “terrorism” was none existent, and Muslims, Christians and Jews lived next to each others as good neighbors. But thanks to Israeli terrorism, some individual or small groups of Arabs or Muslims became convinced that “counter-terrorism” does pay high dividends leading to high positions and renown.

Another point with which I take issue with Hedges is that he called “wars acts of violence” and stopped short of calling wars of aggression as large scale “state-sponsored terrorism.” State-sponsored terrorism is the right term to describe the Israeli repeated continuous wars in the Middle East and the American wars of aggression in many parts of the world, to mention only the latest ongoing wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan, where, in the name of fighting terrorism, they are committing horrifying acts of terrorism where cowardly attacks by drones result in killing large number of civilians and causing huge damage to the countries’ infrastructure.

Thanks to the current black-skinned president, with the same colonialist white mentality, state-sponsored terrorism is perpetuated as he recently authorized a three-thousand-man striking force to terrorize and assassinate the freedom fighters in Afghanistan in their own lands who are fighting both against a corrupt Western-installed government and against a terrorist foreign occupation!

And one wonders when men with brains and human hearts are going to learn the lessons of history to avoid repeating the barbarism and savagery of the past!

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By Leefeller, September 25, 2010 at 8:41 am Link to this comment

Of course I do not understand Robert, the story is as old as the hills.  The inequities promoted by both sides seem to be apparent to only old one eye TD3, ......so old one eye, like all good Texans procalims…... Dallis is Americas team. (Maybe why I cannot stand Dallas?)

Asking someone to understand the minds of lunatics just adds more insanity to it all.

Not that anyone cares,...... even I have given up trying to use deductive reason in never ending saga of West Bank and the Middle Finger. 

Robert and his cut and pastys have provided me minds eye a clear one sided picture of what is really happening between ;........ Israeli, Palestine and alleged friends!

My conclusion for now is;

Israel is a large ever larger encroaching boil which seems to be methodically attempting to cover the ass Crack of the Middle East!  Actually after very little reflection, one could use the same Ass Crack analogy for the good old USA, but just change the middle east to the world!

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By Robert, September 25, 2010 at 8:02 am Link to this comment

Mass Protests as Israeli Contractor Kills two in Palestinian East Jerusalem

September 23, 2010 by Juan Cole


The poor Palestinians of East Jerusalem have few assured human or civil rights. Anyone may do anything to them at any time, and they have little recourse. They can be thrown out of property they legally purchased after 1948, and made to live in tents in front of their former residences; and then the tents can be demolished by Israeli police. Aggressive, larcenous Jewish squatters continually attempt to effect a slow-motion ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, using fraud and sometimes force.

The 55,000 Palestinians of the Silwan area (formerly a village but now annexed to Jerusalem) are mad as hell and not going to take it any more. Three hundred militant settlers have been inserted in their midst on the basis of some fable that a legendary King David dwelled there in the 10th century BC (archeology has found Jerusalem largely uninhabited in that period and has never found firm evidence of a Jewish kingdom during that era or even that a David or Solomon existed; they are not mentioned in contemporary Assyrian sources).

It is as though hundreds of armed men showed up in front of your house and demanded you take your family and leave and give it to them because their ancestor was a king and he is buried deep under its foundations. But you have the same ancestors that they do! (Jerusalem was founded some 5000 years ago by the common ancestors of most Jews and Palestinians).

The Palestinians started throwing stones at the squatters on some provocation. But the squatters have private armed security guards (an increasing tendency worldwide for colonial ventures). One of the guards opened fire. The accounts are murky, but the guard appears to have killed two innocent bystanders, one a Palestinian father of five who was driving by. The private guard wounded another Palestinian, who appears to have been fleeing him.

The use of excessive force (live fire versus stone-throwing) angered the aggrieved Palestinians further, and they began demonstrating in the thousands in Silwan as the funeral was held Wednesday evening. The funeral procession, 1,000 strong, headed for a cemetery near the Wailing Wall and the al-Aqsa Mosque. Stone throwing broke out in that area and Israeli troops accosted the Palestinians driving them into the mosque.”

~~~~~~~~~

Click on link for the rest on Israel’s ultimatum(s) to Palestinians to get out or get thrown and get killed:

http://www.juancole.com/2010/09/israeli-contractor-kills-two-in-palestinian-east-jerusalem.html

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By Robert, September 25, 2010 at 7:51 am Link to this comment

By truedigger3, September 25 at 1:33 am


“No, ITW, No. There is no any equivalency, whatsoever, between Robrt and Walterbard.
Roberts is standing for truth, justice and for the oppressed while Walterbard is standing for lies and cruelity and oppression.”


~~~~~~~~

trudigger3 ... I don’t worry about what ITW has to say about me because I know what his objectives are on TD ... mainly to shield readers from reading/knowing the TRUTH about his beloved Israel. His methods are well known…personal attacks and deceptive dirty tactics. He almost NEVER tries to prove that the information is wrong regarding Israel & zionism’s racism…Apartheid system(s)and brutal oppression of the Palestinian population.

I just read what he responded to you concerning me…and I quote.

“Robert insists I’m an Ultra-Zionist.”

“Robert has called me just about every name in the book, cursed me out and told wild and vile lies about me.  How can he be for justice and truth?”

I must admit…I had to laugh… Really ITW! Is he serious?

ITW has called me a Nazi, Jew hater, Israel hater, anti-semitic and much more…just the usual dirty attacks tactics ... perhaps to sway readers from reading what I post.

I have never called ITW an “Ultra-Zionist” as he stated above & I quote. If ITW is telling the truth, I defy him to quote it and post it on TD….ASAP.

Israel’s zionism supporters usually don’t like to respond to facts/truth; they like to attack the person giving the information, diversions, changing the topic and dirty tactics.

I don’t post for ITW. I post information/facts for others to read, to research and open their eyes to information/news that they won’t see/hear on CNN, FOX News and the rest of the MNM…

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By Inherit The Wind, September 25, 2010 at 6:47 am Link to this comment

That, TD3, is because you are as blinder-bound as both Robert and walterbard. 

Realize this:
Robert insists I’m an Ultra-Zionist.
walterbard insists I’m for the destruction of Israel.

They can’t BOTH be right, and, if either of them THINKS what they think, then, given what the other thinks, NEITHER can be right about me.

Robert has called me just about every name in the book, cursed me out and told wild and vile lies about me.  How can he be for justice and truth?

Use your brain.  I know you can.  You do, occasionally.

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By truedigger3, September 24, 2010 at 9:33 pm Link to this comment

Re:By Inherit The Wind, September 24 at 8:29 am

ITW wrote:
As such Robert is as dogmatic and irrational as walterbard.  People like both of them is why there is no peace.
___________________________________________________

No, ITW, No. There is no any equivalency, whatsoever, between Robrt and Walterbard.
Roberts is standing for truth, justice and for the oppressed while Walterbard is standing for lies and cruelity and oppression.

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By Robert, September 24, 2010 at 9:06 pm Link to this comment

Palestinian Loss Of Land Maps from 1946-2000

Click on link to view images with green & white colors. Click on images (+) to make them larger and see the details / results for yourself:


  http://img20.imageshack.us/f/att00004tj.jpg/

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By Robert, September 24, 2010 at 7:50 pm Link to this comment

weefeller... If you had a bit of common sense, and knew where the “Occupied Territories” & the “For Jews Only” settlements/colonies, maybe, just maybe, some people may take a moment to look at your hogwash.

All I can say to you is ... stick to your hog farming, cut down on the Tequila and try to stay out of the Mid-East topics…they are just way over your head.

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By Inherit The Wind, September 24, 2010 at 10:52 am Link to this comment

Leefeller:
Yeah, they do seem to be working in concert to kill ANY actual discussion of the issue. 

And Robert resorts to making an ultimatum yet again.

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By Leefeller, September 24, 2010 at 7:53 am Link to this comment

Is it possible both idiots are attempting to use reverse thoughtless tacts?  And even if not, they do not know what they saying and are so oblivious to reason they are lacking any sibilance of comprehension as to why their propaganda crap turns people off?  Maybe that is the point?...... I am not talking about the Tea Baggers or the Republicans; I am talking about Robert and walterbard!

It seems for them peace is not an option. I quit reading Robert like the song ; “Long, Long ago” and walterbard I find just as boring with just two sentences, (we have had many before him or her doing the same song and dance) it is like watching a self inflected wound oozing propaganda instead of puss!  Maybe they both work for a third party, to make sure no one else is heard or even gives a shit!

Speculation; is it possible they are working together as some sort of flaying flackers?

Well anyway, they do provide a clear cut reason why the world is so fucked and why hope of peace is not even on the table!

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By Robert, September 24, 2010 at 6:25 am Link to this comment

Ole ITW with his usual ways of diversions, attempts at changing the subject about his beloved Israel…and let me see he is complaining that I am attacking him…Hmmm! Just go back & check the comments/posts on this thread & see who is attacking who!

Zionists almost never try to prove that the information is wrong…they usually attack the person giving the information.

Just like I said in my previous post, over 43 years of oppressive & brutal occupation of the Palestinian people by the Israeli army is a long, long time. The Palestinians have already lost 78% of their original land & the other 22% is Occupied and slipping away right from under their feet in broad daylight. What else have they got to give & compromise on?

Israel needs to withdraw to the pre-June 1967 if it really wants peace over land grabbing/theft/occupation!!!


Amira Hass’s article “Israel Knows that Peace Doesn’t Pay” which was just posted by me, sums it up and proves what I have been saying. Israels has the best of two worlds…grabbing/stealing Palestinian land and the non-stop flow of billions of American $$$ from the ole broke American taxpayers!

All the Arab countries have come forward and offered Israel a peace plan & total recognition in its pre-June 1967 borders. Israel…is blowing in the wind!

Ultimatums are Israel’s killing methods & oppressive occupation. Just look at what Israel’s army has done and is doing to Gaza. They have massacred about 1400 Palestinians of mostly women & children in 2008/2009 and even murdered women, children holding up white flags. Israel denied using “white phosphorus” on Gaza’s civilian population…which Israel reversed their position and acknowledged.

The whole world knows where Israel’s final borders should be if peace is to prevail. Too much killing and suffering have gone on for a long, long time!

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By Inherit The Wind, September 24, 2010 at 4:29 am Link to this comment

Robert continues to prove he is no different than walterbard by personal attacks on me, deliberately mis-representing what I have posted and my positions, and re-iterating the ultimata that Israel “must meet” for peace.

As such Robert is as dogmatic and irrational as walterbard.  People like both of them is why there is no peace.

That’s because the Robert-types are EXACTLY THE SAME as the walterbard-types, only on opposite sides.

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By Robert, September 23, 2010 at 9:34 pm Link to this comment

Israel knows that peace just doesn’t pay


Successive cabinets understood that peace with Palestinians could seriously damage national interests.


By Amira Hass


Successive Israeli governments since 1993 certainly must have known what they were doing, being in no hurry to make peace with the Palestinians. As representatives of Israeli society, these governments understood that peace would involve serious damage to national interests.

Economic damage:

The security industry is an important export branch - weapons, ammunition and refinements that are tested daily in Gaza and the West Bank. The Oslo process - negotiations that were never meant to end - allowed Israel to shake off its status as occupying power (obligated to the welfare of the occupied people) and treat the Palestinian territories as independent entities. That is, to use weapons and ammunition at a magnitude Israel could not have otherwise used on the Palestinians after 1967. Protecting the settlements requires constant development of security, surveillance and deterrence equipment such as fences, roadblocks, electronic surveillance, cameras and robots. These are security’s cutting edge in the developed world, and serve banks, companies and luxury neighborhoods next to shantytowns and ethnic enclaves where rebellions must be suppressed.

The collective Israeli creativity in security is fertilized by a state of constant friction between most Israelis and a population defined as hostile. A state of combat over a low flame, and sometimes over a high one, brings together a variety of Israeli temperaments: rambos, computer wizards, people with gifted hands, inventors. Under peace, their chances of meeting would be greatly reduced.

Damage to careers:

Maintaining the occupation and a state of non-peace employs hundreds of thousands of Israelis. Some 70,000 people work in the security industry. Each year, tens of thousands finish their army service with special skills or a desirable sideline. For thousands it becomes their main career: professional soldiers, Shin Bet operatives, foreign consultants, mercenaries, weapons dealers. Therefore peace endangers the careers and professional futures of an important and prestigious stratum of Israelis, a stratum that has a major influence on the government.

Damage to quality of life:

A peace agreement would require equal distribution of water resources throughout the country (from the river to the sea) between Jews and Palestinians, regardless of the desalination of seawater and water-saving techniques. Even now it’s hard for Israelis to get used to saving water because of the drought. It’s not difficult to guess how traumatic a slash in water consumption to equalize distribution would be.

Damage to welfare:

As the past 30 years have shown, settlements flourish as the welfare state contracts. They offer ordinary people what their salaries would not allow them in sovereign Israel, within the borders of June 4, 1967: cheap land, large homes, benefits, subsidies, wide-open spaces, a view, a superior road network and quality education. Even for those Israeli Jews who have not moved there, the settlements illuminate their horizon as an option for a social and economic upgrade. That option is more real than the vague promises of peacetime improvements, an unknown situation.

Peace will also reduce, if not erase entirely, the security pretext for discriminating against Palestinian Israelis - in land distribution, development resources, education, health employment and civil rights (such as marriage and citizenship). People who have gotten used to privilege under a system based on ethnic discrimination see its abrogation as a threat to their welfare.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Its facts from Amira Hass, an Israeli journalist:

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/amira-hass-israel-knows-that-peace-just-doesn-t-pay-1.275795

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By Robert, September 23, 2010 at 9:12 pm Link to this comment

As usual, its PR & damage control attempts for his beloved Israel from ITW!


These Ole Zionist’s tactics are familiar to many of the informed in the US and elsewhere.

Zionists use these familiar tactics to attempt to quiet anyone who helps expose their subversive Zionist/Israeli “Hasbara/propaganda”.


If that person is a gentile, they cry, “anti-semetic and/or Nazi, Israel/Jew haters” which is nothing more than a smoke screen to hide their “propaganda/damage control” deceptions.

Then they ignore the information, hoping it will not be given widespread distribution.

If the information/facts starts to reach too many people, they ridicule the information/facts and the person(s) giving the information.

If that doesn’t work, their next step is character attacks.


Zionists almost NEVER try to prove the information wrong!


Yes…these deceptive worn out methods are very much familiar here on TD.


One can see right through their programmed ways…DECEPTIVE SIDETRACKING, DIVERSIONS, ATTEMPTS AT CHANGING THE TOPIC…PR/DAMAGE CONTROL.

Notice how ITW just skipped over facts from my previous post. Ultimatums are Israels killing methods and occupation.

Over 43 years of oppressive & brutal occupation of the Palestinian people by the Israeli army is a long, long time. The Palestinians have already lost 78% of their original land & the other 22% is Occupied and slipping away right from under their feet in broad daylight. What else have they got to give & compromise on?

Israel needs to withdraw to the pre-June 1967 if it really wants peace over land grabbing/theft/occupation!!!

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By Inherit The Wind, September 23, 2010 at 7:17 pm Link to this comment

Robert understands nothing.  To him the answer is STILL to issue ultimata, as if THAT will bring peace.

I’m not disappointed. I expected nothing more from him.  He proves my argument eloquently.

As blinder-bound on one side as Walterbard is on the other.

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By Robert, September 23, 2010 at 3:32 pm Link to this comment

78% of Israel consists of the original Palestinian land & the other 22% is Occupied by Israel’s army with hundreds of   “for Jews only” settlements/colonies.

Israel’s brutal occupation has suffocated the Palestinians from all angles. Their daily humiliations by Israel’s IDF is a way of life for them. Israel has total control on the water resources, roads, building permits, ...etc…

Israel runs on total theft & greed at the expense of the Palestinians & the American taxpayers.


* Israel needs to withdraw to the pre-June 1967 borders as per UN Resolution 242 (BTW, The US voted in favor of UN 242).

* Jerusalem to be an open city for all faiths, Christians, Jews, Moslems & others to visit/worship freely at their holy places…etc…

* Reparations / compensations for Palestinians who lost their land/homes.


BTW, Israel pulled out of the Sinai, paid its settlers with American’s money $$$ & signed a peace treaty with Egypt decades ago which is holding well.

Israel has a peace treaty with Jordan & its holding well.

Israel can pull out of the Golan Heights & the Syrians are eager for a peace treaty with the Israelis.

The Israelis know that if they abide with UN Resolution 242 & pull back to the pre-June 1967 borders & sign a peace treaty with the Palestinians, things will not be the same for their zionist expansion plans. Almost all of those billions of $$$ from the ole USA may be cut drastically to a low trickle due to peace in that region ... This will be unacceptable to a greedy & belligerent Occupier…like Israel.

And for Israel and its zionist supporters “no peace” is the best of the two worlds. They keep stealing Palestinian land & they keep getting the non-stop flow of the broke American taxpayers.


One has to conclude that Israel & its zionist supporters want all the land without any Palestinians/Arabs/Christians/Moslems… Only Jews & only for Jews.

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By Inherit The Wind, September 23, 2010 at 12:10 pm Link to this comment

I don’t know that apologies do much.  I do know that stopping the expansion of settlements and rolling them back will do more.  It’s clear that Israel under Likud has been grabbing as much land as they can in front of the peace talks, which, therefore I see as automatically doomed to failure.

Too many here don’t understand that neither side is simply going to cave in and say “OK. You win. Whatever you want we’ll give to you.”  Ain’t gonna happen.  Sure, the Palestinians and their backers can say “Go back to the 1967 borders.  Remove all the settlers.  Give every Palestinian back their land or give it to their children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren, and THEN we’ll talk about dropping destroying Israel from our charter and what we need to live in peace.” 

Ain’t gonna happen.

And Israel and its backers can say “This is our ancestral land and we are going to expand until you stop calling for our destruction. We are going to reserve the right FOR OUR SECURITY to be able to come into your lands, search and seize anyone we think is a threat.”

Ain’t gonna happen.

Abbas COULD be the guy to make it happen, but Netanyahu never will be, unless I’m wronger than I’ve ever been.

Einstein’s view of Jew and Arab sharing the land in peace has been poisoned by 62 years on both sides.

Ain’t gonna happen.

BUT, if BOTH sides stop trying to scrabble for each extra inch, and stop having pre-conditions, they just MAY find a way to have two nations live side by side without killing each other.

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By Sodium-Na, September 23, 2010 at 7:28 am Link to this comment

Re: Arraya,September 22 at 10:45 am.

Quote
======

Israel needs to STOP STEALING LAND and creating jewish only gated community.if it wants to stop the erosion of its legitimacy-which is its own doing. God did not give it to Israel.Apologies and reparations are in order as well.

Unquote
=======

Arraya,

Only foolish ideologues and those who prosper from violence and wars will dismiss your comments quoted above.Lovers of justice and peace will eagerly embrace them,precisely as I am doing now.

I have followed all your posts published,here,on various threads of Truthdig’s website.I feel that I must say that I am highly impressed by the depth and breadth of your knowledge about the issue at hand,an issue unintentionally I have been entagled with for the last 60 years due to various circumstances-to be precise since the good ol’ days of President Dwight Eisenhower. 

I have the honor and privilege to learn a great deal about the Zionist ideology from two wonderful Jews: the late Rabbi Elmer Burger and the late extremely honest commentator,author and lecturer Alfred Lillienthal whom many called him Rabbi because of his profound honesty.His honesty compelled him to write his best seller book entitled,“What Price Israel”.Rabbi Burger was untiring lecturer and writer.He was the main force behind organizing Jewish and Arab writers to write a monumental book entitled,“Anti-Zionism”. A fascinating Rabbi,indeed. The fact that he was a close friend to the giant of the Senate of his time,Senator William Fulbright,speaks volume about Rabbi Elmer Burger’s efforts to alter the policy of the U.S.to be even-handed in order to achieve peace between Arabs and Jews.What Senator Fulbright got,because of the feed back provided to him by Rabbi Burger,the wrath of the hard core ideologues across the political spectrum to a point of some hard core ideologues calling the good Senator as “Anti-Semites?” of which of course he never was.

Arraya,

All of the foregoing was necessary as a mini-introduction to the points you have raised in your constructive comments quoted above for peace:

Both,Rabbi Burger and author Lillienthal,did not want a Zionist state.They wanted Jews to live side by side with the Palestinian Arabs,under one government made of Jews and Palestinians.So did also the decency of Albert Einestien who politely declined to be the First President of Israel as it was offered to him by Ben Gurion,the first Prime Minister of Isreal. Ben Gurion had to travel to Princeton Iniversity where the Nobel Laurate in physics,Einstein,was at the time.However polite Einstein was with Ben Gurion,he was vocal with his constructive thoughts that he wanted to see the Jews in Palestine live with fellow Palestinian Arabs side by side,in mutual respect and peace.

Such thoughts as outlined above are now wonderful for the long-run which I believe my grandchildren will eventually witness when the Arab League could not possibly reject Israel/Palestine state as a member.That is where I believe the SECURITY of all Jews every where lies.Period.However,as my late good friend Abdul Rehman Monif,the leading political novelist in the Arab world once wrote in one of his great novels,“many debris have passed under the bridge”,and I would add,“Bridge of peace”,it will take time to eliminate all debris before reaching the “Bridge of Peace”.Since that is not possible at the moment,due to the debris of stealing land and brutalization of other human beings who want to continue living in their own homeland,perhaps the two state solution is the best available solution at present,provided apologies and reparations are in the cards.

As to apologies,where are you,Sepharad,the hard core Zionist LADY to take it from there and elaborate further on it,since you were the one of the very few hard core ideologues who had/have the decency to call for apology from Israel to the Palestinians.

Sepharad,if you read this,please comment.Thank you.

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By Arraya, September 22, 2010 at 2:52 pm Link to this comment

Its the world without zionism speech.  Israeli PR translation. 

But when the dear Imam [Ruhollah Khomeini”> said this regime
must be destroyed, and we want a world without a client state, many of those who
claim to be political gurus and other things said it?s not possible. 

Interestingly they changed the wording again.  This is the “wiped off the map”
section.  Now it’s “regime must be destroyed”,

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By Robert, September 22, 2010 at 2:30 pm Link to this comment

By walterbard, September 22 at 4:12 pm

To Robert

http://www.iranfocus.com/en/?option=com_content&task=view&id=4164

@@@@@@@@@@@@


waletrbard ... the link that you provided from “Iran Focus” was actually created by the Iranian opposition political groups ... see details/information below. Propaganda at large!

And you want people to believe your false information & zionist propaganda…!!!

~~~~~~~~~~~


Iran Focus

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

“Iran Focus is a news website which identifies itself as a “non-profit news service provider that focuses on events in Iran, Iraq, and the Middle East.” [1]

Originally Iran Focus was a politically independent monthly hard copy newsletter on contemporary Iran that was started in October 1988 by the UK-based consultancy firm Menas Associates (http://www.menas.co.uk) When it was discovered that the Iranian opposition MKO had created the Iran Focus website, and in order to end any confusion, Menas ceased production in July 2005 and merged its monthly Iran Focus and fortnightly Iran Energy Focus into a new electronic monthly called Iran Strategic Focus which is only available by universal corporate subscription and includes the Iranian Oil Sector Organisational Charts and Tables, plus a Project Tracker database, which are also updated each month.”


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Focus

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By moonraven, September 22, 2010 at 1:31 pm Link to this comment

Waterboarded too many times:

Israel OUT of Palestine NOW!

I will take the president of Iran over zionist mad dogs like you any day of the week—and three times on Friday!

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By Arraya, September 22, 2010 at 1:10 pm Link to this comment

Sorry that transcript does not equate to lets drop bombs on Israel.  he is
delegitimizing the ruling party, which has been done to him as well.  Also, he is
delegitimizing the idea of zionism.  Which, he is allowed to do.  It’s like saying
your religion is fake and you can’t kill people for it. 

Iran is threat because of what he says NOT potential violence.  Israel is like a
insecure little kid who breaks out in tears, temper tantrums and denial when
confronted with it’s crimes. 

Israel, on the other hand has expressed explicit violent threats on other
nations. 

The funny thing is, it is exactly what Israel has done to Palestine.

Over the years, Peretz has regularly denied the existence of Palestinians as
a real people with national claims worth acknowledging. For example, he has
written:

? “The defeat of the Arabs of Palestine and the five warrior Arab states in 1948,
1967 and 1973 made a fictional people into a political force. We do not yet
know whether this political force will mature into a real people. Or nation. My
bet is ‘no.’ ’’

? “The Palestinians may not be the Palestinian nation. But they are who they
are. It is not Washington that makes them fantasists.’’

? “Only if you are ‘Eyeless in Gaza’ can you believe that these people [the
Palestinians] are a ‘nation.’ ’’

Peretz’s writing career has essentially been a series of, to quote Goldberg, “long
diatribe[s] about how the Palestinians don’t exist.’’

you are projecting Israel’s penchant for ethnic cleansing on Iran.

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By Don Farkas, September 22, 2010 at 12:47 pm Link to this comment

Regarding Walterbard’s supposed “quote,” it is hard to refute this often made but disputed claim that Ahmadinejad actually threatened that Israel should be “wiped off the face of the earth.”  Although our press frequently repeats that claim as undisputed fact, other translators of Farsi (i.e., the Iranian language that Ahmadinejad was speaking at the time) have stated stated that Ahmadinejad actually said (quoting the late Ayatolah Khomeini) something like, “The Imam said, God willing, the occupiers of Jerusalem will one day become erased from the pages of history.”  While not very friendly, it falls far wide of being a threat to destroy Israel.  It is more like Ronald Reagan stating his hope that one day the totalitarian Communist government of the (former) Soviet Union would fall and disappear.  Thankfully, Gorbechev never found it necessary to launch a pre-emptive military strike on the U.S. just because the Gipper held such sentiments.

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By Leefeller, September 22, 2010 at 12:45 pm Link to this comment

Peace is not a option for the fanatics of the world, for hate and their cause feeds off each others! Nothing new, just the way it is and always has been.

What makes it even more of a problem is when some simple Simon makes the proclamation; .....“You are with us or your are against us”.

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By Robert, September 22, 2010 at 11:54 am Link to this comment

Hey walterbard ... Is it possible for you to provide us a link to those “quote(s)” in your last TD post?

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By walterbard, September 22, 2010 at 11:36 am Link to this comment

26 October 2005

Some quotes of Ahmadinejad

Our dear Imam ordered that the occupying regime in Al-Qods be wiped off the face of the earth. This was a very wise statement. The issue of Palestine is not one on which we could make a piecemeal compromise? This would mean our defeat. Anyone who would recognize this state [Israel”> has put his signature under the defeat of the Islamic world.

This phase is going to be short-lived. If we put it behind us successfully, God willing, it will pave the way for the annihilation of the Zionist regime and it will be a downhill route.

I warn all the leaders in the Islamic world to beware of this conspiracy. If any of them takes a step towards the recognition of this regime [Israel”>, then he will burn in the fire of the Islamic umma (nation) and will have eternal shame stamped on his forehead, regardless of whether he did this under pressure by the dominant powers, or lack of understanding or naiveté or selfishness or worldly incentives.

The issue of Palestine is the issue of the Islamic world. Those who are closeted behind closed doors cannot make decisions on this issue and the Islamic nation does not allow this historical enemy to exist at the heart of the Islamic world.


Since Iran is backing the criminal organizations Hamas and Hizboleh it can be assumed that
no peace is possible and it’s not the fault of Israel.  This is just one of many many statements
by this tyrant who oppresses his even own people.

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By Robert, September 22, 2010 at 10:52 am Link to this comment

“Neither has ANY concept idea or desire for peace between Israel and her neighbors other than the destruction of one or the other.”

**********************


I have consistently advocated, on TD,  that in order to have a lasting peace between Israel & the Palestinians ...  BTW, 78% of Israel consists of the original Palestinian land & the other 22% is Occupied by Israel’s army with hundreds of   “for Jews only” settlements/colonies.


* Israel needs to withdraw to the pre-June 1967 borders as per UN Resolution 242 (BTW, The US voted in favor of UN 242).

* Jerusalem to be an open city for all faiths, Christians, Jews, Moslems & others to visit/worship freely at their holy places…etc…

* Reparations / compensations for Palestinians who lost their land/homes.


Never advocated “destruction” for Israel or the other side(s)!

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By Arraya, September 22, 2010 at 8:50 am Link to this comment

I often argue that,not unlike the early Christian believers battered
by the inhuman machinations of a decadent and corrupt Rome, Americans and the
Worlds peoples are fighting to birth a new Consciousness in the face of a
“dinosaur” financial fascism based on avarice and greed.

+ 1,000

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By Arraya, September 22, 2010 at 8:47 am Link to this comment

Our position, however, is that the Palestinians have a real grievance:
their homeland for over a thousand years was taken, without their consent and
mostly by force, during the creation of the state of Israel. And all subsequent
crimes — on both sides — inevitably follow from this original
injustice.

Damn straight, they have a real grievances.  Apologies and reparations are the
**only** way forward.  And at this point, keeping with the western style democracy
meme - a one-state, multicultural society, one person - one vote.

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By REDHORSE, September 22, 2010 at 8:44 am Link to this comment

I’ve read that a Jewish military/quasi-Roman politico named Josephus makes mention of JESUS in his journals. Still, with or without a physical Jesus, there is no question that a major transcendent shift in human consciousness occured which reshaped (spare me the “—how many murdered in the name of Christ—” moan—)human values and dialogue.

    I often argue that,not unlike the early Christian believers battered by the inhuman machinations of a decadent and corrupt Rome, Americans and the Worlds peoples are fighting to birth a new Consciousness in the face of a “dinosaur” financial fascism based on avarice and greed.

    I have no dog in the religious fight. The line between light and dark splits us all and the actual extant destructive daemonic chaos now offering apocalypse springs from violation of the living principles that define our humanity. Cross some lines and there are only consequences.

    As I tried to explain below, in my view, no matter how it’s rationalized, DAEMONIC forces are created by a Conscious decision to knowingly violate human principle and dignity. The cultural/socio-economic forces that destroyed our Arab murderer are likewise destroying America, and the World. We live in a manufactured inhuman reality imposed and maintained by propaganda, subversion of the truth and gunpoint. That’s what the Patriot Act allows.

    The MANUFACTURED LIE Israel, the Iraq/Afghan horror, Boehner, Tosin, Cheney, Rubin,the Clintons, and now sadly it seems, President Obama represent is already unmasked. But, again, it ain’t THEM, it’s US.
Free your mind and your ass will follow. Or don’t, and perish.

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By Robert, September 22, 2010 at 8:32 am Link to this comment

The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict


Published by Jews for Justice in the Middle East


“Jews for Justice has made this excellent resource available to people around the world.


As the periodic bloodshed continues in the Middle East, the search for an equitable solution must come to grips with the root cause of the conflict. The conventional wisdom is that, even if both sides are at fault, the Palestinians are irrational “terrorists” who have no point of view worth listening to. Our position, however, is that the Palestinians have a real grievance: their homeland for over a thousand years was taken, without their consent and mostly by force, during the creation of the state of Israel. And all subsequent crimes — on both sides — inevitably follow from this original injustice.

This paper outlines the history of Palestine to show how this process occurred and what a moral solution to the region’s problems should consist of. If you care about the people of the Middle East, Jewish and Arab, you owe it to yourself to read this account of the other side of the historical record.


Introduction


The standard Zionist position is that they showed up in Palestine in the late 19th century to reclaim their ancestral homeland. Jews bought land and started building up the Jewish community there. They were met with increasingly violent opposition from the Palestinian Arabs, presumably stemming from the Arabs’ inherent anti-Semitism. The Zionists were then forced to defend themselves and, in one form or another, this same situation continues up to today.

The problem with this explanation is that it is simply not true, as the documentary evidence in this booklet will show. What really happened was that the Zionist movement, from the beginning, looked forward to a practically complete dispossession of the indigenous Arab population so that Israel could be a wholly Jewish state, or as much as was possible. Land bought by the Jewish National Fund was held in the name of the Jewish people and could never be sold or even leased back to Arabs (a situation which continues to the present).

The Arab community, as it became increasingly aware of the Zionists’ intentions, strenuously opposed further Jewish immigration and land buying because it posed a real and imminent danger to the very existence of Arab society in Palestine. Because of this opposition, the entire Zionist project never could have been realized without the military backing of the British. The vast majority of the population of Palestine, by the way, had been Arabic since the seventh century A.D. (Over 1200 years)

*********

Click on link for the rest:

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html

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By Inherit The Wind, September 22, 2010 at 8:26 am Link to this comment

What do we do when we have Walterbard spitting bat-shit crazy stuff on one hand and Robert spitting back bat-shit crazy stuff on the other hand?

Neither has ANY concept idea or desire for peace between Israel and her neighbors other than the destruction of one or the other.

They are opposite sides of the same coin.  And that coin is counterfeit.

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By Leefeller, September 22, 2010 at 8:10 am Link to this comment

For some reason the below paragraph caught me eye!

“What they won’t recognize is Israel as a *Jewish* state.  And guess what, they
don’t have to buy into that concept.  Gandhi would not recognize Pakistan as a
Muslim state either.  It did not equate to wanting to kill the inhabitants.”

Seems a bit hypocritical this does when one looks at Iran with a Muslim state saying;... naughty naughty and we have evangelicals trying to do the same here in the USA and what of Papal Popey State?

For some reason Hitchens comment: “Religion Poisons Everything” comes to mind, except I believe “everything” seems to absolute for me. It seems to be only me, but I find absolutisms very uncomfortable for they seem to be the problem.

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By Robert, September 22, 2010 at 7:47 am Link to this comment

By walterbard, September 22 at 2:06 am


“On the other hand Ahmadinejad can make a speech calling for the total destruction of Israel and annihilation of its people, the jewish people, and the Arab moslem world nod its collective head in agreement.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hey walterbard...your zionist propaganda is NOT floating on TD. Check out what Juan Cole, a leading expert/professor on the Middle-East, explanation/definition of Ahmaddinejad’s speech.

FYI…there are more than 25,000 Jews who live in Iran & are content in being there; they have been there for centuries. They have their synagogues, kosher shops…etc…right there in Iran. They don’t want to move to Israel. Although Israel has tried to lure them with $$$ to leave, but they refused.


****************

Ahmadinejad: We are Not a Threat to Any Country, Including Israel

Believe it, don’t believe it, that’s up to you. But at least we should know what exactly he said, which is not something our US newspapers will tell us about Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s speech on Saturday:

Kayhan reports that [Pers.] Ahmadinejad said, “Iran is not a threat to any country, and is not in any way a people of intimidation and aggression.” He described Iranians as people of peace and civilization. He said that Iran does not even pose a threat to Israel, and wants to deal with the problem there peacefully, through elections:

“Weapons research is in no way part of Iran’s program. Even with regard to the Zionist regime, our path to a solution is elections.”

Ahmadinejad seems to be explaining what his calls for the Zionist regime to be effaced actually mean. He says he doesn’t want violence against Israel, despite its own acts of enmity against Middle Eastern neighbors. I interpret his statement on Saturday to be an endorsement of the one-state solution, in which a government would be elected that all Palestinians and all Israelis would jointly vote for. The result would be a government about half made up of Israeli ministers and half of Palestinian ones. Whatever one wanted to call such an arrangement, it wouldn’t exactly be a “Zionist state,” which would thus have been dissolved.

The schlock Western pundits, journalists and politicians who keep maintaining that Ahmadinejad threatened “to wipe Israel off the map” when he never said those words will never, ever manage to choke out the words Ahmadinejad spoke on Saturday, much less repeat them as a tag line forever after.


http://www.juancole.com/2006/08/ahmadinejad-we-are-not-threat-to-any.html

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By Arraya, September 22, 2010 at 7:23 am Link to this comment

Walterbard refuses to understand that the survival of Israel does
not depend on hating all Muslims

No, but the survival of settlement expansions does as well as US foreign policy
which dehumanization of Muslims clearly is needed.  If you can’t figure out why,
I don’t now what to say.

Put another way -if the fear of god about those wacky hopeless muslims
wasn’t pumped into the air on a daily basis both US occupations and Israel
settlement expansions would be tough sells and propagandists no this.

I know it’s a crazy to imagine, but people don’t like to be bombed, ethnically
cleansed, displaced and political systems neutralized and maybe, just maybe, it
may cause some problems with “blowback”.

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By Arraya, September 22, 2010 at 6:54 am Link to this comment

On the other hand Ahmadinejad can make a speech calling for
the total destruction of Israel and annihilation of its people, the jewish people,
and the Arab moslem world nod its collective head in agreement.

This is a fabrication.  It’s been debunked since 2005.  I won’t bother to post a
link because I know it does not matter to you. 

The Palestinian charter is basically a destroy Israel manifesto, and
it’s an example of tolerance when compared to Hamas’s
declarations.

Hamas has stated repeatedly the want a 2 state solution pre-67 borders.  Over
and over and over again.  Everybody involved in negotiations understands this
and what you are repeating is a a talking point for the sole purpose of public
confusion.

What they won’t recognize is Israel as a *Jewish* state.  And guess what, they
don’t have to buy into that concept.  Gandhi would not recognize Pakistan as a
Muslim state either.  It did not equate to wanting to kill the inhabitants.

Anytime between 1949 and 1967 a Palestinian state could have
been established in Judea and Samaria but the so called Palestinians not only
refused to do so, but also specifically rejected that idea in favor of destroying
Israel

lol..  I don’t even know what to say about this.  I’m surprised you are not
repeating the “pushed into the sea meme.  Which has now transitioned into
“wiped off the map” lol

Seriously, you’re insane closing in on bat shit crazy. 

But what do you expect when one define one’s country by a clearly human-
devised, tribal-based, millennia-old mythology.

Not just pathetic, it’s incomprehensibly dumb. I mean, really? Some piece of
mythological literature is the basis of a modern nation-state and justification of
flagrant violations of law and human decency?

Israel needs to STOP STEALING LAND and creating jewish only gated
communities, if it wants to stop the erosion of it’s legitimacy-which is it’s own
doing.  God did not give it to Israel.  Apologies and reparations are in order as
well. 

I seriously can’t believe we are in the 21st century and this is going on and from
a supposed advanced modern state..

People aren’t buying it’s anymore.  The internet killed Israeli PR. 

Lastly, I’ll leave you with a quote from Tony Judt

The problem with Israel, in short, is not—as is sometimes suggested—that
it is a European “enclave” in the Arab world; but rather that it arrived too late. It
has imported a characteristically late-nineteenth-century separatist project
into a world that has moved on, a world of individual rights, open frontiers, and
international law. The very idea of a “Jewish state”—a state in which Jews and
the Jewish religion have exclusive privileges from which non-Jewish citizens are
forever excluded—is rooted in another time and place. Israel, in short, is an
anachronism

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By Leefeller, September 22, 2010 at 6:47 am Link to this comment

Peace would not seem to have room in the minds of fanatics carrying clubs when hate is overriding truth.

Killing the dove is the first action of the hateful on the road toward the hated ones!

Differences must first be made a demon for the main course of hate to eat, always such an easy meal.

People who would prefer peace and harmony seem nothing more than road bumps of the trampling and contrived hate of war hawks.

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By Tom Edgar, September 22, 2010 at 12:44 am Link to this comment

Oh Gerryhiles.

Hatred for another regardless who the other maybe lowers the hater to the same standards of those to whom their hatred is directed.

Donald Diedrick.

Geryhiles is possibly correct regarding Jesus Christ and you, very probably, are not.  There are NO FACTS supporting the existence of the person known as Jesus Christ outside of the “Bible”.  No historical writings nor supportive verification , especially from the Romans, prolific, record keepers.  Nor from the official Judaic writings.

It is possible that such a person or persons existed, just as with the character of Robin Hood.  Both becoming legends without any official recording of their existence or exploits in any official historical papers.  Remember the Bible, as such, never came into existence until several hundred years after the beginning of the C E.

Nobody can say with exactitude that J. C. Did, or did not, actually ever exist, just that there is no evidence outside of the book of fiction, fact, and fable known as the “Bible”.

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By Tom Edgar, September 22, 2010 at 12:18 am Link to this comment

Mr Hedges.

Please forgive.  But if the subject was ELECTROCUTED
How is is it that he is still alive?

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By babycatajesus, September 21, 2010 at 11:48 pm Link to this comment

Donald Diedrick - “gerryhiles-Sep20-1043AM.Your last sentence is unnecessarily strange “probably non-existent Jesus"when that is a historical fact”.

Oh really…..............??????????????????????????

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By walterbard, September 21, 2010 at 10:06 pm Link to this comment

To inherit

No Israeli major Israeli government official has ever stated that the goal of Israel is to destroy other Arab countries. with the possible exception of the so-called Palestinian state, but that’s because that fradulent entity directly threatens Israel. On the other hand Ahmadinejad can make a speech calling for the total destruction of Israel and annihilation of its people, the jewish people, and the Arab moslem world nod its collective head in agreement. The Palestinian charter is basically a destroy Israel manifesto, and it’s an example of tolerance when compared to Hamas’s declarations. Anytime between 1949 and 1967 a Palestinian state could have been established in Judea and Samaria but the so called Palestinians not only refused to do so, but also specifically rejected that idea in favor of destroying Israel. That charter is still in effect despite the doubletalk that it’s been repealed. No the survival of Israel doesn’t depend on hating all Moslems. Israel’s survival depends on being realistic about its Moslem foes and on being strong when confronting them. The Moslem plan is a two state solution. One state. the so called Palestinian, with no Jews allowed and another, Israel proper where Jews will be tolerated , that is until the next pogram. The so called right wing in Israel knows this, and increasingly
the ordinary Jewish citizen in Israel is also catching on to Moslem duplicity.

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By Inherit The Wind, September 21, 2010 at 8:09 pm Link to this comment

Walterbard refuses to understand that the survival of Israel does not depend on hating all Muslims.  That most of the Muslim nations have little freedom and less tolerance for differences is not the subject on the table.

What is on the table is the idea that an eye-for-an-eye leaves everyone blind. And, if someone takes out your eye, you don’t respond by taking out his city.

And, unless you are both capable and willing to completely massacre your neighbors, while you must defend yourself, doing things that make peace impossible (like extending the settlements) is suicidal.

But like the crackpots who pushed us into this war in Iraq, the crackpots in Israel are pushing the government to keep extending the settlements, to keep encroaching on Palestinian lands.  How do you make peace when you won’t stop doing that?

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By Sodium-Na, September 21, 2010 at 7:24 pm Link to this comment

Lumping what Chris Hedges writes with what the main stream media propagates sounds like an over-extrapolation to me.

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By truedigger3, September 21, 2010 at 6:31 pm Link to this comment

Re: By Rudolfo, September 21 at 4:52 pm

Rudolfo wrote:

More disinformation from Hedges .... he writes

““I came from an extremist background,” he said. “I was exposed to the things Americans fear most about Islam. ..... “

Americans do not fear Islam, that ‘fear’ is a media charade promoted by journalists like Hedges, it’s only purpose is to provide cover, a fig leaf,  for the oligarchs to do whatever they want in the middle east, to bomb, to invade, to occupy, to ethnically cleanse, because Islam is a violent religion.  It is Orwellian, beyond irony”
______________________________________________

Rudolfo,

Very insightful remark and I agree with you 100%.

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Robert's avatar

By Robert, September 21, 2010 at 6:30 pm Link to this comment

By walterbard, September 21 at 6:57 pm


They are surrounded by Islamic nations that refuse to recognize Israel as a Jewish state.  The arab airwaves put on for entertainment virulently anti-Semitic soap operas.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hey walterbard...you might need this video to effectively transmit your zionist propaganda. Feel free to use it…it might just help your planned agenda.

Click on link below to watch & find out who this “terrorist” really is ???. You & many others may have seen him on CNN, Fox News, MSNBC and other so called news channels.


******


Fake Al Qaeda Actors EXPOSED! Adam Gadahn & Yousef al-Khattab

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgRJ9mW_hAQ&feature=player_embedded#!

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By walterbard, September 21, 2010 at 2:57 pm Link to this comment

To inherit the wind
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Sometimes this law leads to rockets exploring
the cosmos but sometimes the same law blows up the rocket. Yes Israel is turning to the right.
But what do you expect. They are surrounded by Islamic nations that refuse to recognize Israel as a Jewish state.  The arab airwaves put on for entertainment virulently anti-Semitic soap operas.
As for the West the most lubricous but very defining action was a Gays for Palestine demonstration
contingent in a leftist parade. In Tel Aviv nothing would happen but imagine, if these idiots walked down a street in just about any moslem country. There is nothing about Islam or the Palestinian
cause that the “left” can be comfortable with. This Palestinian movement is not progressive,
it’s regressive. Hamas is a fundamentalist movement inimical to western values, but the European and American left supports them over Israel.  Why? I fear it’s closet anti-Semitism.
Israel has many problems, many of which existed since its inception. The social prejudice against the Mizrachi, the overbearing control of the Orthodox Rabbinate over marriage and conversion
and the ultra orthodox freeloaders are examples.
Not all of Israel’s problems are the result of the Arab conflict. Yes, I agree with you that
a theocracy in Israel would turn Israel into a Jewish version of Saudi Arabia.
But at this point in time I believe Israel is in very great danger. And most Israelis I know
sense it also. A threatened society will move toward authoritarianism. But under the circumstances
it might be the only course for the country. Most Israelis I know see another Munich pact looming
with Israel becoming the new Czechoslovakia. This reaction to the right is partially due to the actions
of Leftists and the increasing Moslem threat.

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By thebeerdoctor, September 21, 2010 at 2:30 pm Link to this comment

Alas Inherit The Wind, for those so blinded by their own hatred that they think that murder is justified… well. how can I say this? What cosmic ophthalmologist can free them?
Unable to comprehend another’s ethnic identity, let alone being able to perceive injustice from different viewpoints, what can one say?
All I can say is, you are NOT my enemy. From one numb skull to another. Peace, and that is, you are most certainly aware,  not just a word, but a living action.

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By Sodium-Na, September 21, 2010 at 2:27 pm Link to this comment

A humanly decent and honest post. 

The writer is true to himself in the full meaning of the words.

Deserves the utmost respect….

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By Inherit The Wind, September 21, 2010 at 1:33 pm Link to this comment

Walterbard:
Far be it for ME to defend Hedges, but when he says that violence begets violence, it’s hard to argue with him.  This man looks at what his father did out of hatred, murdering another hateful man, Meir Kehane, and the what he did was damage his OWN family and children.  About the best thing that happened is that the son figured out that Dad is an @$$#o1e who hurt his own family.

If you read here you’ll see that I’m called an “ultra-zionist” all the time by the far left “progressives”.  But, while I want Israel to succeed and thrive and be safe, I do NOT accept that it’s OK at any cost. Bottom line: They went ‘WAY overboard in their response to Gaza and they f***ed up the Lebanon invasion so badly I thought the Bush clowns were their strategists.

Now they’ve elected some of the most hateful people to run the country.  Avigdor Lieberman is just plain evil, and even more a danger to Jews and Israel’s existence than he is to Arabs.  The equivalent of the Teaparty has come to power in Israel and the results are wreaking unimaginable damage—on ISRAEL!

But Kehane was as evil if not more so than Lieberman.  He said flat out that he believed you couldn’t have a Jewish nation and democracy at the same time, so HE was for a nation run by religious leaders, a Sanhedrin, a Jewish “Islamic Counsel”. A dictatorship that allows NO deviation.

Yet his death didn’t end his hateful beliefs.  You have Lieberman there for him.

When I see Ultra-orthodox Ashkenazim DEMANDING and practically rioting in the streets so that they can segregate to “protect” their kids in PUBLICLY FUNDED schools from the corrupting influence of…(wait for it)...Ultra-orthodox Sephardim (told you to wait for it…) because (supposedly) they aren’t orthodox enough, it’s really hard to argue that those people are NOT racist bigots and religious fanatics.

They would deny that my non-Orthodox Union sanctioned marriage is invalid. (it was Conservative)
They would say that the non-Orthodox Union sanctioned infant conversion of my adopted son is invalid (it was Reform) AND THAT HE’S NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO MAKE ALYAH!
They would deny that we aren’t good enough Jews for Israel—until they want our money and support for lobbying Congress.  Then and ONLY THEN are we good enough!

Look at Israel and you see what happens when the Teaparty comes to power.

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By Rudolfo, September 21, 2010 at 12:52 pm Link to this comment

More disinformation from Hedges .... he writes

““I came from an extremist background,” he said. “I was exposed to the things Americans fear most about Islam. ..... “

Americans do not fear Islam, that ‘fear’ is a media charade promoted by journalists like Hedges, it’s only purpose is to provide cover, a fig leaf,  for the oligarchs to do whatever they want in the middle east, to bomb, to invade, to occupy, to ethnically cleanse, because Islam is a violent religion.  It is Orwellian, beyond irony.

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By Sodium-Na, September 21, 2010 at 12:33 pm Link to this comment

Re: Leefeller,September 21 at 1:09 am.

Leefeller,

The positive and,indeed,constructive Re specified above reminds me of yester years in which you and I agreed more than we disagreed.

The three paragraphs in the Re above are worth repeating for emphasis of their profound meaning and truthfulness:

Quote
=====

This may be the first time I am complimenting Chris Hedges on his article. Please accept my compliments Chris with apologizes for my jibbing and jabbing.

It is important to know there are Muslims who want some of the same things other people in this world would like to have…. to live in peace.

May the deaf ears of fanatics be clear of wax and their consistent practice to ignore and avoid the truth be circmvented,....luck be with those hoping for peace.

Unquote
=======

Leefeller,

I really need not post a single post on the entire blogsphere since my family obligations,my own website and at the top of that my poor health can consume all of my time and energy. But when I see bigotry and Muslims/Arab bashing I feel obligated to fight back as much as I can,since I lived among,and worked with Muslims and Arabs for more than 20 years and I know what certain forces in the entire West,not necessaraly in the U.S.alone try hard to demonize all those people just like any Arab/Muslim idiot who tries to sum up all Americans as violent because of Tim MaCveigh dynamined the federal building in Oklahoma City,killing 169 innocent people and wounding many others. Such kind of talk does not belong to self-respecting and decent human beings. It belongs to the scum of humanity.

In short,thank you,Leefeller,for expressing what I have in mind so profoundly better than I could.

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By REDHORSE, September 21, 2010 at 12:07 pm Link to this comment

It’s not the gun in our hands, but the gun inside us that kills.

    Mr.Hedges, and other journalists, are beginning to recognize and explore the reality of manufactured mass psychosis and the destructive homicidal forces it engenders. (necrophilia/erotic fascination w/death.) The hallmark Madison Avenue manipulation, of the deep human psychological forces of power, sex and death has been refined, expanded and exploited. It represents full on assault.

    We posters are quick to admit the “fascist” manipulation and intent of thugs like Cheney, Bush and Boehner, and lament the complicity of the Corporate MSM, but struggle to accept, that the American psyche has been intentionally numbed and damaged by a well oiled and researched machine. What do you think “propaganda” is? We are a wounded people. As I’ve said elsewhere: We’re sick from it, and sick of it!!

    Doubt it’s there?

    I suggest that, in an American time desperate for leadership, the actual horror, despair, powerlessness and insult you feel, when presented with political Frankencreatures like S.Palin and an airhead East Coast anti-masturbationist, is an intentional result. The fact that D.C. minions and their Corporate MSM overlords can make it fly, speaks to just how infected “We the people—” are. It is a terminal disease and D.C. is the host.

    Check this.

    Our Arab murderer was a man stricken by the emotional/mental disintegration that results from poverty, alienation from country and separation from home, culture and community. It made him emotional putty in the hands of political thugs. His fear and dissociatiion (hysteria) was so great he forgot who he was, lost his moral compass and murder became his only avenue home.

    We are all hard wired for Nation, family,culture, community, home and friendship. Remove these things and, first we lose meaning, then hope, and then we slip toward insanity. Isn’t enforced poverty and the willful destruction of family, home, culture and community the very weapon being used against Americans today?. Isn’t the very core of our “—life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness—” under assault by a manufactured insane imposed lie?

    In the fascist view our very thoughts are a threat. The average American citizen is no different in their eyes than the poor unfortunate Arab sitting in Supermax. The only question: is the citizen prosecutable?

    There’s your conspriracy revealed. It’s not that the Bush thugs blew the Twin Towers but the merger of the insane visionless destructive apocalyptic forces alive inside both Cheney and Bin Laden. It isn’t otherworld magic.

    It’s time to get clean.

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By walterbard, September 21, 2010 at 11:32 am Link to this comment

To inherit the wind
Oh, I understand Hedges article. He tries to create a false moral equivalence between the occasional
terrorist Jewish fringe groups and the pervasive islamofascists groups. It’s disingenuous to say the least.
The problem is terror works. A totally phony movement called Palestinian nationalism has gotten
“sympathy” of the leftist jerks. And how did they do that? By putting suicide bombers on busses.  By hijacking planes by mass killings. And the Israel gets the blame. These islamofascist killers blow
up each others mosques with people and not a peep from the rest of the moslem world
or the “Human Rights” activists, But should Israel try to protect itself by blockading Gaza because
rockets are being imported from Iran and then fired at women and children in Israel then
all the phony groups along with Hedges go into conniptions. Enough of this hypocrisy.

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By thebeerdoctor, September 21, 2010 at 4:02 am Link to this comment

“Come to lites my sisters
And take what you need
Doesn’t matter my brother
Your Sunday creed
Cause each one’s a lover
To this winter nite star
A pilgrim, a pioneer
That’s who you are
Feel this love
My brothers and sisters
Feel the season turn
She is the mother of time
It’s not war
It’s life she gives
And that’s where mother’s
spiritual lives”

LAURA NYRO

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By Leefeller, September 20, 2010 at 9:09 pm Link to this comment

This may be the first time I am complementing Chris Hedges on his article. Please accept my complements Chris with apologizes for my past jibbing and jabbing.

It is important to know there are Muslims who only want some of the same things other people in this world would like to have…. to live in peace.

May the deaf ears of fanatics be clear of wax and their consistent practice to ignore and avoid the truth be circumvented,....  luck be with those hoping for peace.

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Robert's avatar

By Robert, September 20, 2010 at 6:11 pm Link to this comment

Watch: As Israel Slides Toward Fascism, Citizens and Supporters Swear Their Loyalty


Swearing a loyalty oath to Israel as an ethnic state is gaining legitimacy; a video produced by the authors shows the willingness of Israeli residents to pledge allegiance.


By Max Blumenthal and Joseph Dana


“September 20, 2010 “Alternet” - - The Israeli Knesset is debating a bill proposed by David Rotem of the extreme right Yisrael Beiteinu party that would require all Israeli citizens to swear loyalty to Israel as a “Jewish and democratic state.” This bill is targeted at increasing pressure on the 20 percent of Israelis who are Palestinian citizens, while forcing the ultra-Orthodox Jewish minority who reject the legitimacy of any state not based on Jewish biblical law to accept Zionism. If passed in its proposed form, citizens unwilling to take the loyalty oath would be at risk of losing citizenship.

Israeli leaders committed to a classic secular political Zionist platform have always fought at all costs to guard Israel’s “Jewish character,” even while they reveal their inability to properly define exactly what it is. The loyalty oath and the push for a two-state solution are the most profound examples of the insecurity that has roiled beneath the surface in Jewish Israeli society since the state’s inception. Without a Jewish majority exhibiting clear legal and political dominance over the non-Jewish or non-Zionist minority, the Zionist movement becomes meaningless. So as the Palestinian-Israeli minority actively resists its dispossession and the ultra-Orthodox stubbornly reject the concept of a Jewish state, the Israeli establishment feels increasingly compelled to seek draconian measures to salvage its vision of Zionism.

Watch the video: Feeling the Loyalty to the Jewish State of Israel

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article26404.htm

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By prosefights, September 20, 2010 at 5:27 pm Link to this comment

Please excuse the off-topic post.

Svet questioned Marjorie Mascheroni’s claim that she needs a public defender. The judge said a financial statement showed the couple has $3,800 in monthly income and noted the couple owns a $275,000 home and two vehicles, including a late model Lexus.

“I’m not one who believes the nature and seriousness of the offense requires citizens to finance the defense,” said Svet, who ordered a detailed financial affidavit.


Monday, September 20, 2010; 2:31 PM

ALBUQUERQUE, N.M.—A physicist accused of trying to help Venezuela develop a nuclear weapon was released to a halfway house Monday after a defense attorney argued that he has posed no national security risk since his investigation by the FBI was publicized last fall.  ...

Svet noted Mascheroni “has the skill and science to build a bomb” and asked defense attorney Amy Sirignano why that wouldn’t be considered a danger to the community.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/20/AR2010092003752.html

More information.

http://www.prosefights.org/nmlegal/theinvestigation/physics/physics.htm

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By Gmonst, September 20, 2010 at 4:21 pm Link to this comment

I really appreciate this article from Hedges.  Its a nice departure from his usual doom and gloom, all bad with no solutions articles.

I appreciate its core message which resonates with me a lot.  We each have a personal obligation and opportunity to personally embrace the morality we aspire to see in the world.  The path to meaningful societal change lies in individual change toward a more peaceful self.  Small efforts we make in this regard can have the most profound effects.  As we look into ourselves occasionally we get a glimpse beyond this identity we embrace and see that its not really there at all.  I am trying to enter into a worldview that does not see Palestinians, Jews, Muslims, but only people.  People who are all much more like me than not like me.  People who essentially need the same things as me.  Every individual who makes the effort step out of viewing the world with the dichotomy of my group vs. the “other” will be a positive force in building a peaceful world.

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By moonraven, September 20, 2010 at 3:01 pm Link to this comment

Having the courage to act in opposition to the masses, huh?

Problem is that just about everybody IS the masses.

And then there is mass murder, mass hysteria, mass production, high mass.

And the Participation Mystique?

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By CitizenWhy, September 20, 2010 at 1:24 pm Link to this comment

Any religion that takes a parent away from the family as first priority is up to no
good. And any religion that only takes care of “its own” is inadequate.

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By Arraya, September 20, 2010 at 1:11 pm Link to this comment

A human being is a part of a whole, called by us _universe_, a part limited in time
and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something
separated from the rest… a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This
delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to
affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from
this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures
and the whole of nature in its beauty.”

Albert Einstien

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By Don Farkas, September 20, 2010 at 12:46 pm Link to this comment

Here is a perfect example of why I feel sorry for the sad human race in general
and for poor Chris Hedges in particular.  Hedges has written an op-ed asking for
people to develop a greater insight as to the long term human consequences of
hate so as to try to break the seemingly endless cycle of ultimately pointless
human violence and retribution, but his payoff is merely to elicit a series of
escalating hateful comments from readers verbally attacking each other.  I
sometimes despair for the prospects of our species ever achieving lasting peace
when I consider that most people do not even seem to be able to drive their
automobiles with any reasonable degree of courtesy. 

Don Farkas

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By Inherit The Wind, September 20, 2010 at 12:41 pm Link to this comment

walterbard and gerryhiles:
Both of you bigoted martinets sicken me.  There’s no difference between you other than the positions you take.

And neither of you understood anything about Hedges’ article, you are both so blinded with hate.

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By jerry lagadec, September 20, 2010 at 12:19 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Good grief! I admit I’m no where near as smart as some of you people making the comments, but the kid is basically saying “Stop the killing already!” We need this repeated more and more, it seems to me; but we don’t need the nit-picking over analysis and over intellectualizing that I’m reading in so many of these comments, at least that’s what I sense in them.It just seems that many of the comments in some are just showing off how clever the writer is.Now I’ll probably get a barrage of attack mail.I admit I could be wrong, but for me the core of this message is simple:” violence begets violence” That may be too simplistic for some, but that’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

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By Arraya, September 20, 2010 at 12:03 pm Link to this comment

When Joseph Campbell was a little boy he lived next door to the library in New
Rochelle, NY, where he was given access to archival material about American
Indians, their culture, and the way they were mistreated by European
Americans.

At the same time, travelling shows (Will Rogers? doing this from memory, not
notes) featured cowboys ‘n Indians ‘n recounted lore of buffalo hunts ‘n life
taming the prairie of them Injuns.

Young Campbell’s research made it impossible for him to “other” Indians; he
understood, at a very young age, their humanity, and struggled to square his
understanding with the popular treatment — the propagandized, dehumanized
version of Indians that he saw in the entertaining, mass-appeal traveling
shows.

Our mainstream media is certainly entertainment, not information, and is most
assured calibrated to dehumanize the “other” du jour; in Campbell’s day,
American Indians, as well as Negroes.  During WWII the Japanese were
barbarians according to war propaganda.  It should be obvious who is the
“other” today

Man is not a killer by nature; he can only kill an “other.”

Campbell’s hours in the library in New Rochelle shaped his life and prodded
him to pursue his research into the mythologies of various and numerous
cultures.

The American Indian was not an alien “other” whose humiliation Joseph
Campbell was free to cheer, even if all his young mates cheered the lassoing of
an Indian Chief as if he were cattle. He had the courage to act in opposition to
the masses.

So must we.

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By prole, September 20, 2010 at 11:33 am Link to this comment

“He has spent 20 years in prison and well over 10 years not having contact with his children. I wonder if this makes him regret his decision, but who knows.”… El Sayid Nosair knows – why don’t you ask him? This is another one of those sentimental sermons that paints a pseudo-psychological portrait of a vague concept with no more proof than the personal impressionistic ruminations of a distraught youth. Zak “Ebrahim has not seen his father for 15 years. They have not communicated for more than a decade”…which really is not so very different from millions of other kids who’s parents have separated for a wide variety of reasons. So young Zak is feeling sorry for himself because he feels let down by his old man and he blames politics for it. This really doesn’t get us any closer to understanding ‘terrorism’ or resistance or state violence or a lot of other tricky subjects.
  As Zak explains, “I have spent so much time trying to protect myself from being hurt by him that I have reduced the importance of one day having a grown-up conversation with him.” Which makes it pretty hard to understand the thoughts or feelings of his father since neither Zak nor Hedges want to have a grown-up conversation with him but instead would prefer to attribute their own self-serving motives to him. El Sayid Nosair is more useful to both of them as a straw man for promoting their own beliefs than as a flesh and blood man who can speak for himself if anyone would let him. For someone like Hedges, who frequently complains about censorship by omission, it’s a little rankling to see his own use of it. The only way we get to know Nosair is through his son’s neurotic attachment to his imagined loss and Hedges exasperating way of jamming him together with David Petraeus in the all-encompassing category of “necrophiliacs.”
  “Ebrahim has not seen his father for 15 years. They have not communicated for more than a decade”…so obviously, he’s a lot more interested in an imago of his father than he is in getting to know the real man. But as with Hedges, Ebrahim’s father is more useful as symbol for their own preachments than he is as independent actor in his own right. Ebrahim laments, “If he cared about what was going on in my life he should have stuck around for it.” And one of the things that was going on in their lives was the fanaticism of zionazis like Kahane and his klan. As with most people, Ebrahim’s father no doubt cared (and probably still cares) about many different things that were going on in his life and the world around them.
  But for Ebrahim, “It is easier for me not to put too much importance on the answers to questions I might put to him. He has spent 20 years in prison and well over 10 years not having contact with his children.” But who’s fault is that? As Ebrahim himself said, “We ended all contact with him. For years he has been trying to get back in touch with us.” It is Ebrahim – and Hedges - who will not contact his father, who does not want to know his father – not the other way around.
  Ebrahim would rather go on playing the role of the hurt son and disillusioned Muslim who has seen the light and is now a ‘good Muslim’ renouncing his father and armed resistance. One can only await the day when David Petraeus’s son Stephen, recently commissioned in the army himself after finishing MIT, and currently serving in Amerika’s terrorist campaign in Afghanistan will foreswear violence! After all,“Who knows this better than the son of a terrorist?”

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By Kim Sky, September 20, 2010 at 10:41 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“severely electrocuted”

i love the idea of telling this story.  but it is confusing.  how was he severely electrocuted?  when did he marry his mother, before or after the rape allegation?

thanx.

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By mdgr, September 20, 2010 at 10:29 am Link to this comment

Just a postscript to my earlier post:

The problem with our species is not that it murders, but that it is violent.

Here, I point to the violent tone of many of the posts here, even though they are not inciting murder. We reflexively “kill” others on a day to day basis, even though we cannot be prosecuted for murder. Here, I include myself not less than any other members of my species.

Unfortunately, taking a vow not to murder does not exempt us from either the “killing” or the violence. It’s all a matter of “what we see it what we get.”

It’s all but built into the phenomenology of this species that dared to call itself “sapiens.”

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By mdgr, September 20, 2010 at 10:19 am Link to this comment

I am guessing, but I think Chris Hedges felt “called” to redirect the feelings of frustrations and rage that are not just sweeping through the political right, but also the political left.

He may be, as it were, just trying to protect us.

While I usually respect Mr. Hedges as a uniquely luminous writer, I agree with those who cite the Nazi Resistance as a case where violence didn’t necessarily breed a karmic soup leading to even more depraved moral sensibilities.

Nor is that an isolated example. Gandhi has his place, of course, but there is a time for pushing back using yet other methods. There are, to coin a phrase, just wars and unjust wars.

America, of course, typically picks the unjust war.

The problem with the human race, bye the bye, isn’t that it’s so violent. It’s that it’s so prone to obtuseness and blindness—intellectually, emphatically and spiritually.

But that’s a whole different discussion, alas.

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By walterbard, September 20, 2010 at 10:00 am Link to this comment

I presented several FACTS about the bogus Palestinian
movement. You haven’t rebutted them because they can’t be rebutted; they’re facts.

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By Devon Noll, MPA, September 20, 2010 at 9:39 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

If I remember my Bible and my history correctly, there were two sons of Abraham - Isaac and Ishmael.  Now at the insistence of Sarah, Isaac’s mother, Ishmael and his mother were exiled into the desert - supposedly to die so that Ishmael would not become a threat to Isaac’s inheritance from Abraham.  Ishmael and his mother were saved by God, and told that from Ishmael would rise a nation of men that would be great in number.  The descendants of Isaac are the Jews of today, while the descendants of Ishmael are the Arabs of today.  They are brothers and sons of Abraham - even their religious texts denote this connection.  They have been at war with each other ever since. 

Fast forward to the modern day.  We are a world with limited space and shorter tempers than are good for any of us.  We read and assimilate only what we want to, often ignoring the context of what we read or its true messages.  For example, Mohamed received his message from God which became the Koran during the time of the Crusades when Christians were killing and burning Arab citizens and cities to the ground.  His writings were intended to foster peace, but also to defend what was a person’s family, belief in God, and property from invaders.  If you read the Koran, with the understanding of the historical context in which it was written, you understand it better.  For many Muslims who find themselves being deprived of their right to worship as they see fit, to hold property (or keep what was once theirs), or to live free of threats from others, the message is not all that different than it was when the Koran was written.  So, in today’s world, where they do not have WMDs, they fight back.  Is it right to target innocents?  No - even the Koran condemns it as do most Muslims.  Is it right to demand the right to have a place to worship?  In this country, absolutely, and yet we would deny them the very right we claim for ourselves.

The Christian Bible contains both the Old Testament of the Jews and the New Testament of the teachings of Christ.  I find it ironic that so many of our Christian Taliban/Tea Party crowd, adhere so strongly to the teachings of the Old Testament with its fervent hatred of Arabs and their addiction to the worship of not Jesus’s life, but of his death and Armageddon. They embrace a legal system that have women stoned or sold as chattel, a child’s arm severed if he/she stole food, empire building, arranged marriages, and religious intolerance to the point of death for non-believers.  They worship the death of their Savior and his resurrection, but have turned his birth into a party and his teachings into something to be ignored or even put down.  They fear Sharia law (according to Newt Gingrich), but would embrace Biblical law which is just as harsh in the Old Testament.

This young man is encouraging peace, tolerance, and religious freedom - all things that once made this nation strong.  What his father did is not something that this son should be saddled with - but many here would do so.  Have we learned so little over the last 2000 plus years of fighting over religious differences, that we are not better than Isaac and Ishmael?  Have we allowed greed and power to become our spiritual philosophies to the exclusion of God or Allah?  God and Allah are one and the same being!  The message of their teachers is one and the same:  Peace, brotherhood, tolerance, family, love.  Have we allowed ourselves to be so swayed by false prophets and power-mad zealots that we have forgotten that message on both sides?  This young man would have us remember these messages - because he recognizes that within those few words is life and survival for this world and for ourselves.  I would encourage all who read this to embrace a new approach to life - and make the dealers in death and intolerance obsolete, socially, politically, morally!

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JDmysticDJ's avatar

By JDmysticDJ, September 20, 2010 at 8:56 am Link to this comment

This is just one of incalculable millions of possible anecdotal stories relating the costs of killing as a method of achieving political objectives, or as a method of obtaining retribution. Each new killing creates a rationale for more killing, each new death of a loved one, or innocent, creates a desire for revenge, and a rationale, to some, for more killing.

Only the kind enlightenment related in this anecdotal story can end the cycle of death, and the squandering of life and resources.

This from dictionary.com

Medical Journal

nec•ro•phil•i•ac definition

Function: adj
:  of, relating to, or marked by necrophilia.

nec•ro•phil•i•a

–noun Psychiatry .
an erotic attraction to corpses.

Necrophiliac seems not to be an appropriate word to use to identify the pathology of those who seek to justify the insanity. Hedges seems to be taking some liberties with language in order to state his abhorrence and contempt, (In the strongest possible terms,) for those who seek to justify, perpetuate, and prolong the madness, in order to achieve political, religious, societal, cultural, financial or hegemonic goals, or to satiate their lust for retribution.

Fear and hatred for Groups is currently aggravating, and providing the rationale for, increased and continued pathology.

Islamophobia - Definition

“Islamophobia is the fear and/or hatred of Islam, Muslims or Islamic culture. Islamophobia can be characterised by the belief that all or most Muslims are religious fanatics, have violent tendencies towards non-Muslims, and reject as directly opposed to Islam such concepts as equality, tolerance, and democracy. It is viewed as a new form of racism whereby Muslims, an ethno-religious group, not a race, are nevertheless constructed as a race. A set of negative assumptions are made of the entire group to the detriment of members of that group. During the 1990’s many sociologists and cultural analysts observed a shift in forms of prejudice from ones based on skin colour to ones based on notions of cultural superiority and otherness.”

“...the British Runnymede Trust defined Islamophobia as the “dread or hatred of Islam and therefore, to the fear and dislike of all Muslims…,”

“Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is prejudice against or hostility towards Jews, often rooted in hatred of their ethnic background, culture, and/or religion. In its extreme form, it “attributes to the Jews an exceptional position among all other civilizations, defames them as an inferior group and denies their being part of the nation[s]” in which they reside.[1] A person who practices antisemitism is called an “antisemite.”

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Anti-Zionism can be opposition to various ideologies within Zionism, opposition to the Jewish state of Israel founded on that concept, or opposition to specific Israeli government policies since its establishment. The term has been used both historically and in current debates to describe various religious, moral and political points of view in opposition to these, but their diversity of motivation and expression is sufficiently different that “anti-Zionism” cannot be seen as having a single ideology or source…”

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By walterbard, September 20, 2010 at 7:58 am Link to this comment

Toi Gerryhiles

Where I live is non of your business.
Why don’t you move to Iran or Egypt?
Yes I’m paranoid about islamofascists terrorists.
One has only to look at just how extreme the islamofascists react. For example the Danish cartoon
incident in which there was rioting and deaths over a cartoon. The Fatwahs issued against authors, such as Salmon Rushdie is another example
There is ample reason to be paranoid about Moslem fanatics
No I don’t speak for an entire region, no one does.
Hated? perhaps by islamofascists and nazis. But then
there is not much difference between them. In the 1930s the nazis funded many Islamofascist groups
such as the Sons of Egypt the pograms in Iraq
the so-called palestinian movement. There were more
Jewish refugees from arab persecution than so called
palestinians from Israel. About 850,000 Jews were driven out of Arab countries from 1922 to 1967, most of them weren’t zionists. The so called Palestinians in Lebanon were made second class citizens by their fellow Arabs. It wasn’t Israel that confined them behind barbed wire, it was Arabs.

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By Donald Diedrick, September 20, 2010 at 7:19 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

gerryhiles-Sep20-1043AM.Your last sentence is unnecessarily strange “probably non-existent Jesus"when that is a historical fact.

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By Gordy, September 20, 2010 at 6:46 am Link to this comment

What about the assassination attempts on Hitler?  I never hear anyone say of that ‘it is futile; violence only breeds violence.’  I’m not so sure it’s as black and white as all that.  And everyday self-defence is justifiable. 

I think that the futility of violence comes with its association with tribalism and philosophical/religious delusions.  This ‘necrophilia’ idea seems a tad tenuous.  I would echo John Gray here and suggest that worship of a text is necrophilia - the worship of old ideas and statements, rather than something real and living.

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By tedmurphy41, September 20, 2010 at 6:35 am Link to this comment

When our own Governments start to abandon terrorist activities, however they wish to present it to the wider World, then it will follow, slowly, that solutions to all problems can be reached purely by peaceful means in all corners of this planet.

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By walterbard, September 20, 2010 at 6:13 am Link to this comment

To gerryhiles and fRtothus Geza

Go to Youtube and find the Hamas kiddie show which encourages children to kill.
Go find Moslem clerics preaching murder. they’re all available.
Go look at the history of this terrorist movement of the so-called Palestinian national movement.
The spiritual and political founder of the movement, according to Yassir Arafat, was Amin Haj Husseini,
the grand mufti of Jerusalem from 1922 to 1946.  This founder formed the hanser division of the Waffen SS and he’s responsible for the deaths of thousands in Bosnia.
Isn’t suicide bombing of buses terrorism? Isn’t the gloriification of suicide bembing terrorism.
Isn’t the genocidal war between sunni and shi’ite
terrorism. The Moslems must take responsiblity
for their corrupt states and blame the U.S.
or zionism
Hundreds of Israeli were murdered by terroist. Thousands were killed fighting terrorists.
Stern gang was a fringe group with no more than 500
members. Talk about terrorism, look up the Hebron
riots in April 1929. The Jews aren’t occupying
Hebron, the Arabs are.

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By John in Kerrville, September 20, 2010 at 6:12 am Link to this comment

How does “Necrophiliac” differ from “Necrophile”?  I see here that the former is
associated with killing, whereas I had always associated the latter with someone
who had a fondness for dead bodies (funeral home workers were overly fond of
their “clients”).  The former term I cannot find in my dictionaries.

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By rend, September 20, 2010 at 6:09 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Here you go Géza Éder,

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

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By Géza Éder, September 20, 2010 at 5:29 am Link to this comment

What is the total number of Palestinians killed by Israelis and vice versa, walterbard?

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By FRTothus, September 20, 2010 at 5:15 am Link to this comment

And the defenders of Israeli terror come out of the
woodwork.  Was Irgun not a terrorist organization? 
Was the Stern Gang not a terrorist organization?  Is
Israel, fully supported by the JDL, not a terrorist
organization?
Terror is terror, no matter who is doing it.  Death
is death, whether by a car bomb or dropped from
30,000 feet or from blockade, starvation and denial
of medicines.

“A terrorist is someone who has a bomb but doesn’t
have an air force.”
(William Blum)

“Far from being the terrorists of the world, the
Islamic peoples have been its victims, principally
the victims of U.S. fundamentalism, whose power, in
all its forms-military, strategic, and economic-is
the greatest source of terrorism on Earth…. People
are neither still nor stupid. They see their
independence compromised, their resources and land
and the lives of their children taken away, and their
accusing fingers increasingly point north: to the
great enclaves of plunder and privilege. Inevitably,
terror breeds terror and more fanaticism. But how
patient the oppressed have been…”
(John Pilger)

“Defense becomes offense, the protection of your
children becomes the murder of another’s, his threat
becomes your preemption. You kill to stop the
killing. Then you wonder: Are you the victim, or the
slayer? But you are both.”
(James Carroll)

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By walterbard, September 20, 2010 at 4:37 am Link to this comment

Once more Hedges distorts the facts. He posts a picture of the Jewish Defense League and tries to give
the impression that this Jewish group is equivalent to the Islamic terrorist groups. It isn’t.
The JDL constitutes a small minority but there are thousands of Islamic terrorists. The Israeli government
outlawed the Kach party for racism. Yet in Arab countries antisemitsm (not just antizionism} is openly preached. In Gaza Hamas puts on children’s programs on how to kill Jews. No such programs exist in Israel.  In Egypt, supposedly at peace with Israel, clerics call for a holy war against Jews. No, there is no equivalence between the small number of Jewsih extremists to the pervasive terrorism in Islamic countries. In Israel girls are not killed for going to school, honor killing is considered murder.  The only
time Moslem stated clamp down on terrorism is when there is a power struggle between factions.
As witnessed by the struggle between Hamas and the PA. Abbas hasn’t eschewed terror, it merely is not the proper strategy at this time.

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