By JDmysticDJ

GRYMie reminds me of the right-wing talking heads that ... claim the electorate is Center/Right and ... say, “The American People want …”

LOL, exactly, I remember the Turtle and the Tan Man spouting that disingenuous talking point to argue for extending the tax cuts for the top 2%.  GRYM, take a look at graphs of the increasing income and wealth gap that has occurred over the last 2 decades.  Please tell us how far you want this separation to go before you would be satisfied and begin to desire a more progressive tax scheme?

GRYM amateurish imitations of Rush Limaugh, only without he ability to hang up, and
his pretzel like logic, could easily fill a book entitled Conservative for Dummies. The
inexhaustible humor potential of this book, will place it right next to The White Trash
cookbook on your book shelf. However, I doubt if those Americans in the burgeoning
tent cities, of this country, who are living the conservative American dream, will be
Amused. Often repeated Conservative homilies, like spells from a Witches, book of
incantations, have enchanted this nations airways and the thinking processes of it’s
inhabitants for far too long. Look where they have got us. See with your eyes what’s
happened,what’s continuing to happen, and what will be happening in the future, as long
as conservative political policies are voted for. There is only one difference between a
prosperous America of decades ago, and the sick feeble nation we have now, and that
is the Republican party. Yes, they got a helping hand from some sell out corporate
Democrats.

I hope you will sign this petition and get your friends to sign it.

Fight back against conservatives in congress. Boycott some companies that donate to conservatives in congress.

Sign this petition at http://www.democratz.org demanding congress and the President enact a progressive agenda. Pass this link around to every one of your friends. Post it on bulletin boards, blogs and facebook groups around this country and send it on twitter. The Peaceful revolution has begun.

Anarcissie,

I use the term liberal as meaning liberal.  Not democrat.  Not anarchist.  Not communist. 

You write that you can answer my sincere questions.  But you chose to avoid answering?

and every other term

GRYM—It seems to me you’re using the term ‘liberal’ incoherently.  I could answer your questions from some anarchist or communist point of view, although we would first have to establish some basic axioms and definitions to work from, but I think you should get liberals to speak for themselves.  Most of them are probably okay with Oprah having loads of money.

Democrat does not equal liberal does not equal leftist.

go straight to hell; you’re not, in reality, at all.
100% of people who cite statistics are 50% dishonest,
50% gullible.
debts are ‘due’, consequences are ‘because’. i know, i
know; english is easy, math are hard.

Healthy families don’t put their members into competition with each other, they nurture them. An economic system that is not designed to do the same is defective and needs to be corrected. Being a liberal is a family matter. That’s why it is so easy to be one. To be a conservative takes a lot of explaining. That is why they have Madison Ave at their disposal. No one would think that way on their own.

Anarcissie, December 31 at 5:49 pm

-

Your last post brings to mind a few beliefs I’ve held for some time now.  You may be able to dispel, what is for me, some significant issues I have with the farthest contemporary Western “Left”.

1. The liberal leaning mind is more able to set an agenda - in this case income equality - based on what each would like humans to be and not, necessarily, what they are.

2. Liberal leaning minds are more apt to believe that the rich gained their riches in evil ways, don’t deserve what they have, and if only we could redistribute wealth in the U.S. the rest of the globe will follow.

3. What do you have against Oprah being one of the richest woman on the planet?

I’m asking these things with sincerity.  Is this bunk or are there things there to chew on?

Obama is Not a Liberal.

This was the year that Obama’s limitations were clearly seen by the broader progressive community.  There is always a yin and a yang and Obama demonstrated that he is not the counterpoint to the forces of materialism which have suffocated America.  What is needed is for the representative of Light - the World Teacher Maitreya - to finally be allowed to be heard by the global public.  Then we will have a real alternative for deciding what way we want to have the world go.

“I know that within men sits a Divine Being, Whose Plan it is that Love and Justice should triumph. This being so, the end is assured.
But not all see the necessity for change, for the transformation of this world, for the implementation of sharing, co-operation and trust. When My simple Law, the Law of Love, is obeyed, all of this will ensue. Therefore, My friends, I speak simply of Love and Trust.
Many today know that these aspects count, but realise not their central place. My friends, all life depends for its existence on the Love of God. This simple Truth I teach. Make it your own. Make it central to your lives, and advance with Me.”
- Messages from Maitreya the Christ

Go Right Young Man, December 31 at 1:32 am:

Anarcissie, - “Will not both parties continue to serve the rich…..?”

I certainly hope so.  Along with every other American interest.

Not all American interests coincide.  In particular, private wealth often represents a struggle between conflicted interests.  I understand that in the U.S. we now have a situation in which, in net worth, the 2% at the top possess more than the 98% at the bottom.  Since them as has, gets, this already politically and socially unstable situation, certainly fraught with real and potential conflict, is going to become more intense.  The fact that both major political parties serve the 2% suggests that the political system is broken and will not be able to mediate the interests of the rest.

(Note that ideology is only one interest, maybe a minor one.)

mericans will shortly bear witness to an historic event, namely the collapse of this
country’s economic infrastructure, and the end of any pretense of separation of
corporate Americka from a federal political apparatus.

The plutocracy will attempt to save itself from oblivion by turning itself into a police state
, but this act of political desperation,will be short lived, and only hasten it’s demise.

The choices it made to preserve itself at the expense of the American people will prove
it’s undoing. In the end there will be no choice but to nationalize the banks, the health
insurance companies, the educational institutions, the trucking and distribution
companies, the communication companies.  As he black hole of debt, inexorably eats it’s
way forward consuming anything of value, in it’s infinite maw.

Nothing can save them now. The hyenas in Washington, will come to be regarded, as
impotent and deranged. Their legislation, unenforceable because they are bankrupt,
delusional, and corrupt, vichyssoise.

GRYMie reminds me of the right-wing talking heads that continually claim the electorate is Center/Right and continually say, “The American People want …”

The polling data is available to anyone who wants to take the time to examine it. The most important poll, of course, was the mid-term elections. The most obvious conclusion of the mid-terms was that many people from the Left withdrew their support for Obama and the Democrats, which had a significant impact on public opinion, and election results. There was a barrage of criticism directed at Obama and the Democrats coming from the Left, and a lack of adequate defense of Democratic policies from many so called left wing pundits and by the democrats themselves. Many former supporters of Obama and the democrats simply did not turn out to vote, or voted for other candidates.

Health Care reform currently is disapproved of by just over 50% of the people. Depending on the particular poll, from 10% to 40% of the people want the Health care reforms to be expanded, while all of the polls show that a majority of the American people want the reforms to be expanded or remain the same. Analyzing the data shows that a majority of the people approve of the “Liberal Reform” or wanted the reform to be more “Liberal.” Over 60% of the people agree with the reforms regarding denial of Health Care Insurance for pre-existing conditions, and over 60% of the people agree with the reforms that prevent Health Care Insurance Companies from dropping coverage for people who become sick.

Over 60% of the people don’t want to be forced to pay for more affordable, more inclusive, Health Care Insurance, apparently a sizable percentage of the American people want Health Care to be “Free” to them, and financed from other sources; which is a “liberal, or left-wing Concept.”

The percentage of people who believe the Democrats will do a better job regarding Health Care policies exceeds the people who believe the Republicans would do a better job regarding Health Policies by well over 10 percentage points.

Currently the polls show that the American people are dissatisfied with their government, but that they prefer Democrats to Republicans, by small majorities.

Although majorities of the American People currently disapprove of the Afghanistan War, unfortunately, majorities of the American People agree with Obama’s anti- terrorism policies, or believe that Obama isn’t doing enough to combat terrorism.

GRYMie is quite right when he points out that a minority of the American people define themselves as being “Liberal” or “Progressive,” but its clear that this minority holds the balance of power in coming elections, if this minority becomes apathetic or abandons the Democrats, the Republicans will take power again. Like them or not, those are the realities. A small majority of the American people believe that Obama and the Democrats will take the country in the right direction, and that the Republicans will take the country in the wrong direction, it’s all about direction, not perfection. If my progressive friends want regress, rather than progress, then carry on, you’re headed in the “Right” direction.

In conclusion I’ll point out that my progressive friends already know that the claim of compassionate conservatism has been proven to be (oxy) moronic. Not just recently, but historically.

Not One More!, - “76% of statistics are made up on the spot, as is the figure of 20% that gets thrown out repeatedly by GRYM.”

-

I have no doubt that you would like to believe that.  As I have little doubt that you well know that roughly 20% of the American voting public identify themselves as liberal.

Roughly-
20% Liberal
40% Moderate
40% Conservative
Leaving the overwhelming majority against the liberal agenda.

If anyone here would like to share a respectable poll which displays otherwise, I would be more than willing to revise.

In the mean time: It’s time for many liberals to do some true refection and realize they are not the angels of compassion and all things good.  They simply believe in a different approach to the same goals other men and woman hold.

76% of statistics are made up on the spot, as is the figure of 20% that gets thrown out repeatedly by GRYM.

First, being in the majority doesn’t mean that you are right. Great tyranny and injustices have repeatedly been carried out by the ‘majority’ throughout history. Just ask the slaves, Indians etc.

Ultimately, what is missing from this discussion is the lies and the misstatements on both sides that go unchallenged by their ‘supporters.’ Truth is truth, and a lie is a lie. Silence always helps the oppressor, never the oppressed.

I clearly have issues with the democratic party and refuse to support them, in part because of their lies, misstatement, and deceit.

And the republican party represents even worse policies and principles. But neither are acceptable, nor should be supported by people who want a just and fair government.

Wikileaks points out that our elected and appointed officials think and act in self serving ways, and not for the purpose of democracy, liberty, freedom, peace, and truth. And yet we keep electing them.

Mr. Dionne is too easy to dismiss as another democratic apologist as he continues to promote the illusion that supporting ‘democratic’ principles means having to support the Democratic Party. It couldn’t be further from the truth.

Vote third party, don’t throw away your vote.

When conservatives defend Obama and his agenda you can be sure without a doubt
that Obama sold out those who voted for him.  E.J. Continues telling the big lie over and
over again refraining each and every sellout, as a victory.

GRYM loves him,  this endorsement says it all.

The real issue is not will liberals learn from adversity, but will progressives ever learn?

Will they ever learn that a vote for a Democrat is a vote to no where?

Obama is on the liberal side, but politically Obama is NOT a liberal, but is a conservative.  Obama is like Clinton, who is the best Republican EVER.  DLC members are not liberals. Only conservatives would be interested in giving more money to the wealthiest when they already have 98% of the wealth.

Liberals are interested in helping the American Populace have jobs that pay a living wage, while conservatives are only concerned with the American Populace having McJobs where they have to work two jobs to have anything near a living wage. Liberals are concerned with health care, child care, etc. that help the American Populace get by, while conservatives have no concern for the American Populace, which is 70% of the population.  Obama represents the American Middle Class, a minority 20% of the population.

“Conservatives talk so much about first principles that they seem to forget how difficult it
is to govern effectively. Liberals talk so much about specific programs that they forget
how much citizens care about the values that undergird those programs and the moral
choices that nurture those values.”

Very well put E.J.

GRYM,

Yes, I think glee.  Frankly, you doth protest too much.  And are more than a little evasive as well aren’t we?

Anarcissie, - “Will not both parties continue to serve the rich…..?”

-

I certainly hope so.  Along with every other American interest. 

Oprah employs tens of thousands of people.  I hope the congress gives Oprah every advantage to make money in the U.S..  Very large sums of money!

As for empire and the evil that is the U.S., we will simply disagree.

Question: Which is the most powerful lobby in Washington?  The one lobby which, if your going to disagree with, you’d better have several well thought out reasons?  The AARP. - Hardly a big money oligarch.

I’ve probably asked this question in the past.  Who exactly are these evil rich people we here so much about?

E. J. Dionne: an apologist for a frenemy. 
Intellectual fraud is a thriving profession here in the land of the free and brave.

Opinion is not action nor does opinion always reflect actual reality.

    Articles, and discussions of them, that ignore the on-going disintegration of American social/financial reality and the growing hunger, loss and impoverishment of her citizens by venal thugs is capitulation. A warm bed and a full belly makes for these types of “lets pretend” articles and comments. Do you believe the German villagers really didn’t know what the strange ash coating their roof tops was?

    Cheney and Bush took the mask off the American Shadow. The consequential moral debt of slavery, genocide, murder and World exploitation has come due. There are no innocent people any more. Life is out of balance and a great correction is coming. The outcome of the Assange and Manning persecutions is your destiny. Some things are so bad it doesn’t matter who did them. The Maker of Worlds is looking us all squarely in the face. Decide. Are you a human being or just a hungry ghost?

GRYM—It seems to me that the party changes in the House have been fairly superficial.  Perhaps the most recent one will make things more difficult technically for Mr. O, but being a cautious conservative he may play a much better defensive game.  Who knows?  What does it matter?  Will not both parties continue to serve the rich, pursue empire, and vote to extend the powers of the police and other agents of surveillance and repression?

Anarcissie, - “It’s some kind of power struggle between elites.”

-

I still give the American people much more credit. 

I happen to know that so many negative letters and telephone calls were made to district and Washington offices of the 111th Congress concerning health-care legislation that most democrats were apprehensive to affix their names to the legislation.  The legislation barely passed.

Oligarchs didn’t change the House of Representatives in Nov. 2006 and 2010.  The American people did.

Now that is democracy in action.  In the United States individuals still have much to say.  It’s the reason the U. S. is one of the most prosperous and liberal nation on the planet.

What a confused mess all these so-called reforms have created. Nothing straightforward or significant enough to the benefit of Americans in need of health care. My insurance company immediately raised my premiums after the bill passed. Certainly nothing obvious-in-your-face-wonderful enough for Obama to boast about.
Yes he can smile and double-talk - but that’s not going to impress me or anyone whose brains haven’t been arrested by all the political Kool-Aid. We need to see tangible results - but before we sort out through all the complications and find print and find out it was a hoax- the presidential term limit will have passed.

GRYM—I don’t think I said anyone was stupid.  Actually, a good many people are sort of stupid—50% of the population is below average mentally—but that really isn’t the point.  The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, nor the answers to the clever.  I think most people rightly believe it would be a terrific fight to find anything out, and if they did find things out, to do anything about it.  So they wisely abstain and get on with their lives and leave the digging and muckraking and struggle to fanatics like Mr. Assange, who feel more passionate than they about the grand abstractions.  This situation, to me, can’t be called ‘democracy’ because the great majority have no say in it.  It’s some kind of power struggle between elites.

glider,

Glee?  Glee over the 2010 elections?  Where do you come up with these things?  Why not simply ask a question rather than imagining how I may feel?  Wouldn’t that be a great deal easier and much more informative?  I feel no sense of glee.

Did I give Americans credit for wisdom immediately after they elected Obama? - Sure I did.  Americans came within a whisker of electing Palin as Vice President.

I still give Americans terrific credit for electing the first Negro president.

-

Without a doubt I lean more toward the conservative side.  But why not try viewing my opinions without first conjuring up some phantom, evil, Neo-Con?  Why must EVERYTHING with you be some odd battle?  You are the reason men war against each other.  Have you never considered this?

Dear intelligent, well-informed (more or less) well-meaning people:  This article by Dionne seems a garbled mass of chewed-over political cliches to me. Our comments appear to be hung up by our oppositioinal understandings and interpretations of two words—“liberal” and “conservative.” Things have been pushed by the government so far to the right these days, that these words have all but lost any definitive meaning.
  How about thinking and writing and talking about what people need and don’t have, what they could have, and s[ecifically how to engage them in a kind of people’s politics.  This is a huge order—much more important than “liberal” or “conservative” shibboleths.  It’s a huge, tough problem, but ... are we unable to tackle it here—or anywhere?
We had better be at it before the government, now almost completely detached from the people, decides to shut down the Internet in the interests of “security.”

GRYM,

I think your glee over the 2010 conservative victories is coloring your opinion of reality regarding what most Americans want.  In my view Obama voters are fed up with politics after having been bamboozled by one of the biggest bait and switches in American politics.  That part is quite understandable.  Additionally, I would argue that given the slant of the Corporate Media and constant government propaganda, that the public as a whole would actually be even more progressive if they were given more balanced information.  But that is what it is I suppose.  I am curious if you gave Americans so much credit for wisdom immediately after they elected Obama?

Go Right Young Man,

It’s funny but I think it is actually conservatives who are guilty of thinking the majority of the country thinks like they do when in fact they don’t.

But I don’t want to debate it.  I think if should be obvious that conservative ideology has derailed our country for most people, but whatever the people want is what they should get.  If it is true that they want a conservative ideology, I’m all for them getting it.  I believe it will be the dumbest thing they ever wished for, but that is how a democracy works.  I’ll sit back and watch the implosion.  I hope I’m wrong, but I doubt I will be.

Anarcissie,

I give the American public a great deal more credit than you seem willing to allow.  Frankly, I’m tired of hearing people talk about how stupid most people are when they disagree with the minority. 

I have listened to your views.  There is no denying that very few in the States see things as you do.  That does not mean the abundant majority are too stupid to understand your superior intelligence.  They simply don’t agree with you.

It’s time for many liberals to do some true refection and realize they are not the angels of compassion and all things good.  They simply believe in a different approach to the same goals other men and woman hold.

SoTexGuy—there is no Left left in mainstream American politics.  The Left are people who believe that there is not enough peace, freedom and equality, and they should be increased.  Most Americans are not very interested in these abstractions except when they are very directly affected, which apparently isn’t often.  What I think people voted for in 2006 and 2008 was a relief from the Right, that is, people who believe in authority, war, imperialism, police power, plutocracy and so forth.  However, the product advertised—hope’n'change—was not delivered and probably could not be delivered.  What was delivered was more of the same.  So in 2010 they stayed home or voted ‘No.’  Watch for more of the same two years from now.

GRYM—We can’t have a democracy unless the people know what’s going on.  They do not now know what’s going on, and probably don’t want to.  The fact that 80% of the people nominally agree with some policy or other means nothing unless they have been fully informed and have paid attention to the matter.  At present the understanding seems to be ‘They pretend to inform us, and we pretend to believe them.’

CWB56, December 30 at 2:53 pm

I disagree.  I don’t intend to offend when I write that the oligarchy narrative is fiction.  A way for some to explain why both lawmakers and voters most often do the opposite from what 20%, the minority, desire.

Depending on how you ask the question, most Americans do want cuts to social programs, do want to extend tax cuts to the very rich while in a recession and do not want to lose any war while at the same time desiring the war to come to a close.

I believe you make the mistake of thinking the minority believe and think as the majority.

-

I believe the current Commander in Chief learned a great deal about how the world works after taking office.  Thus the reason he has reversed himself, and even expanded, nearly every objection to security protocols, the Patriot Act, domestic surveillance, Guantanamo, “enhanced” interrogations, indefinite detention and renditions.

Democracy is alive and well in one of the most prosperous and liberal nations on the planet.

The Liberals/Progressives/Left/whatever they term themselves will be better served in 2012 looking for a new champion and standing by him/her, even if it means abandoning the Demos to support a third-party candidacy, regardless of who the Repub candidate turns out to be.

Show backbone and principle, I would counsel them. And quit waiting for Obama to change—he’s not going to do it. You were royally screwed, friends; isn’t it time for payback?

Go Right Young Man,

Unfortunately democracy is not alive and well in our country.  We live in a two
party oligarchy that represents only the interests of the very rich.  Our lawmakers
are servants to the elite.  Most Americans do not want to see cuts to social
programs, do not want to extend tax cuts to the very rich, do not think the two
wars are worth fighting but lawmakers do the opposite because that is what the
elite want.

glider,

I’m not, in reality, a republican.  You’ll have to find a different way to understand why and how people whom disagree with you, disagree with you.

Try this on for size. - It may have something to do with the fact that roughly 80% of the nations democrat, republican, independent and moderate thinkers disagree with your views and solutions.  It may have something to do with the fact that a mere 8% of the electorate identify themselves as “progressive”.

Democracy is alive and well in the United States.  Due largely to that fact the U.S. remains one of the most prosperous and liberal nations on the planet.

Whatever Obama accomplished, he gave away more to the conservatives than he
won for the liberals.

Health care reform, bank reform were weak at best and there is no excuse for
extending tax cuts for the rich.

At this point I’m done supporting democrats because they are the lessor of the
evils.  It really doesn’t make much of a difference which party is in office and
the only way we can get away from the two party oligarchy at this point is for it
to collapse entirely.  The millions of conservatives who support an agenda
against their own best interest will only learn the hard way so the quicker they
get to experience it, the sooner we can start over.  Keep cutting taxes and keep
cutting government spending until we are a full fledged third world country. 
I’m looking forward to seeing the blue haired Tea Party members reaction to
having their big bad government social security and Medicare cut drastically
because that is what they voted for.

GRYM,

It is telling enough that Mr Go Right Young Man ‘Republican mouthpiece’ coming to defense of the deceitful traitorous Obama.  Keep it up.  I am sure you will change the minds of many progressives  

Regarding “liberals” or “progressives” or whatever label you want to stamp on the naive enthusiastic supporters of the opportunistic 2008 Obama “used car salesman”.  I do not believe it is a failure of the electorate labeled as such, but rather the sellout of the politicians supposedly representing them to corporate interests.  In other words our “Democracy” is a farce and Obama has driven that message home in no uncertain terms.  We will either evolve a 3rd party or we will proceed to our collective Orwellian hell.

Ok! what double-speak. Nonsense is the kindest word I have for it!

These examples from one short passage of the above:

“Between the White House and its sometimes-friends, sometimes-critics on the left”

The White House is supposed to be the ‘THE LEFT’ We voted out THE RIGHT.. That Obama guy we put in there was appointed to lead ‘THE LEFT’. And what the? friends can’t criticize? Is that the new way of saying ‘with me or agin me’?

More: “Too often, the White House has been caught whining about its progressive critics”.

‘Been caught whining’? It’s only a minus because they were caught? The President can work against liberal and progressive goals all he wants.. but needs to control the flow of info better..yeah buddy!

And yet again.. we have another Obama apologist preening over things accomplished.. this Congress was the most productive in history one wrote recently.. Productive of what and for whom? .. and how can that be squared with the endless whining by those same commentators that this was the ‘do nothing’ Congress.. crippled by the just say no opposition?

Yes, E.J. Dionne, Americans have been cured of overconfidence in the President and the Democratic leadership.

Adios!

glider,

Obama is not a deceitful traitor.  He’s the president of a nation of which only 20% of the population identify themselves as “liberal”.

You would do well to keep this in the fore of your mind.

I am sick unto death of limousine liberals telling me that being forced to buy insurance at whatever price insurance companies care to charge is an “enormous social” reform.  It is not.  It is an enormous redistribution of wealth from human beings who can ill-spare it to corporations that do not need it.

I am equally tired of hearing “liberalism”, in the American sense, described as anything other than an utterly failed and morally bankrupt political philosophy.  Conservatives are money-grubbing fear mongerers who do not deserve the power they hold in this country—but as long as their only opposition remains effete theorists with no real convictions and no particular sense of honor, the game will continue to be played… and those of us who have the misfortune to merely live in this country, rather than own it, will continue to suffer.

Mr. Dionne writes: Barack Obama could call a rally and count on tens of thousands to materialize almost at an instant. He then goes on to describe how President Obama should “re-engage the country on what can only be called a spiritual level.”

-

Many liberal thinkers don’t like to speak of it.  Yet it could be no more clear that, for many, their politics has become their religion.  Obama the symbol of a living God.

The president is a man, E.J..  A mortal human being.  There was never a time when this man, this human being, could materialize anything in an instant. - It’s the nation’s moderates, independents, and conservatives -the Tea Party- which is extreme?  How very odd it is to believe that.

It’s time for many liberals to do some true refection and realize they are not the angels of compassion and all things good.  They simply believe in a different approach to the same goals other men and woman hold.

“If insuring 32 million more Americans is not an enormous social reform, then nothing can be said to count as change”

What a fucking moron!  In essence, if forcing economically challenged people to buy uncontrolled price gouging 5x the outside worlds rate, is not accepted as great progress than there is nothing progressive possible?  Are you serious Eugene!!!

Obama is a deceitful traitor to his electorate as is the Democrat Party as a whole.  We either get a 3rd party are we all collectively go to hell.