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Where Were You When They Crucified My Lord?

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Posted on Dec 5, 2011
Illustration by Mr. Fish

By Chris Hedges

Chris Hedges gave an abbreviated version of this talk Saturday morning in Liberty Square in New York City as part of an appeal to Trinity Church to turn over to the Occupy Wall Street movement an empty lot, known as Duarte Square, that the church owns at Canal Street and 6th Avenue. Occupy Wall Street protesters, following the call, began a hunger strike at the gates of the church-owned property. Three of the demonstrators were arrested Sunday on charges of trespassing, and three others took their places.

The Occupy movement is the force that will revitalize traditional Christianity in the United States or signal its moral, social and political irrelevance. The mainstream church, battered by declining numbers and a failure to defiantly condemn the crimes and cruelty of the corporate state, as well as a refusal to vigorously attack the charlatans of the Christian right, whose misuse of the Gospel to champion unfettered capitalism, bigotry and imperialism is heretical, has become a marginal force in the life of most Americans, especially the young. Outside the doors of churches, many of which have trouble filling a quarter of the pews on Sundays, struggles a movement, driven largely by young men and women, which has as its unofficial credo the Beatitudes:

Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are they who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek, for they shall possess the earth.
Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for justice, for they shall be satisfied.
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure of heart, for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons and daughters of God.
Blessed are they who suffer persecution for justice sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

It was the church in Latin America, especially in Central America and Augusto Pinochet’s Chile, which provided the physical space, moral support and direction for the opposition to dictatorship. It was the church in East Germany that organized the peaceful opposition marches in Leipzig that would bring down the communist regime in that country. It was the church in Czechoslovakia, and its 90-year-old cardinal, that blessed and defended the Velvet Revolution. It was the church, and especially the African-American church, that made possible the civil rights movements. And it is the church, especially Trinity Church in New York City with its open park space at Canal and 6th, which can make manifest its commitment to the Gospel and nonviolent social change by permitting the Occupy movement to use this empty space, just as churches in other cities that hold unused physical space have a moral imperative to turn them over to Occupy movements. If this nonviolent movement fails, it will eventually be replaced by one that will employ violence. And if it fails it will fail in part because good men and women, especially those in the church, did nothing.

Where is the church now? Where are the clergy? Why do so many church doors remain shut? Why do so many churches refuse to carry out the central mandate of the Christian Gospel and lift up the cross?

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Some day they are going to have to answer the question: “Where were you when they crucified my Lord?”

Let me tell you on this first Sunday in Advent, when we celebrate hope, when we remember in the church how Mary and Joseph left Nazareth for Bethlehem, why I am in Liberty Square. I am here because I have tried, however imperfectly, to live by the radical message of the Gospel. I am here because I know that it is not what we say or profess but what we do. I am here because I have seen in my many years overseas as a foreign correspondent that great men and women of moral probity arise in all cultures and all religions to fight the oppressor on behalf of the oppressed. I am here because I have seen that it is possible to be a Jew, a Buddhist, a Muslim, a Christian, a Hindu or an atheist and carry the cross. The words are different but the self-sacrifice and thirst for justice are the same. And these men and women, who may not profess what I profess or believe what I believe, are my brothers and sisters. And I stand with them honoring and respecting our differences and finding hope and strength and love in our common commitment. 


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By Lumpenproletarier, December 14, 2011 at 5:04 pm Link to this comment

Dear Sodium-Na,

I was not offended, but thank you for your ammends.

Respect for Life is an easy code to follow; you only have to remember three words.

An apology is a great way to start living it.

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By Sodium-Na, December 14, 2011 at 4:29 pm Link to this comment

Lumpenproletarier

It is obvious that my response to “What Is Progress” has displeased you.

Please accept my apology for the flare-up I practiced during unguarded moment of code of behavior.

I usually ignore such insulting opinions. I regret that I did not do so this time.

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By Lumpenproletarier, December 14, 2011 at 3:19 pm Link to this comment

Blessed are the namecallers, for they shall be called the bullies of the playground.

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By heterochromatic, December 14, 2011 at 3:09 pm Link to this comment

~~~~~~Does Life respect us?~~~~~~~


Time won’t let it.


“........love should grow
Vaster than empires, and more slow”
                                          - A M

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By Sodium-Na, December 14, 2011 at 3:08 pm Link to this comment

“to wit I say,bunk and horseradish.”

What Is Progress,

You are full of beans-a lot of it.

Wit? You must be kidding!

I see only a typical DUMMY who cannot see further than his own ugly abnormal flat nose,precisely as you have presented yourself in the picture to the right.

Grow up,you idiot,and start communicating with others in a degree of self-respect for your own good,if you are,indeed,a human being!

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By Lumpenproletarier, December 14, 2011 at 2:33 pm Link to this comment

Dear Anarcissie,

“So if Life has no intelligence or agency, and we are here and it is there, what is it we are to respect, and how?”

There is no “we” and “it”. Human beings are part of the “whole” of life on earth. What are we to respect? Life itself, for it’s own sake. Life deserves respect simply by virtue of it’s apparently phenomenal rarity in the cosmos.

How does one respect life? By choosing to live deliberately, and with great care in how we affect the other living organisms on this planet.

A good start is to recognize that we are dependent on plant life for our own survival. Simply acknowledging this fact can raise our consciousness about how ridiculous it is to define humans (as some have attempted to do) as the “dominant” species on this sphere.

Our brains have freed us from the prison of behaving only in a gentically predetermined way. Now that we have such freedom, should we not engage our brains in the flourishing of the “whole of life” which created us?

Report this
John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, December 14, 2011 at 1:55 pm Link to this comment

Sodium-Na, you say, “* Darkness belongs to the European Dark Ages. It had stemmed from ignorance of the populace in Europe. The people of the 21st century are different from the European ignorant populace of the Dark Ages.” to wit I say, bunk and horseradish.

Anarchissie, so you are saying we ought not to respect life?  I suppose then you’ll volunteer to be the first life that does get respect?

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By Sodium-Na, December 14, 2011 at 1:08 pm Link to this comment

Re: elisalouisa,December 13 at 6:09 pm.

elisa,

It is good to read your posts. I do learn from them,espesially when you ask questions.

In the above Re you have asked a series of questions concerning the fate of the Christian churches. I wish I feel fully qualified to answer them with a degree of confidence. Due to the profound respect I hold for you as an honest and sincere human being,I shall try to help you out as much as I possibly can.

At the outset,I must admit that being an Agnostic after years of being raised in the realm of the Greek Orthodox church is not easy for me to get involved in such a topic.

However,based on my occasional discussions with my son who is an Ordained Minister,with a Doctoral Degree in Ministry,I can outline what I heard from him,concerning attendences,as follows:

~ Attendance in the European churches is decreasing.

~ If attendance is the standard measurement to determine whether Christianity in descent or ascent,you are correct,and as you put,“winding down”. That is in Europe. In the United States,the case for Christianity is different because the social order or disorder is different and circumstances are also different.

~ Some attendance in some American churches is holding steady and some others decreasing. It all depends on what a particular church is offering to its community.

~ The attendance at the church my son runs is holding steady in most of the year and increasing in the Winter Season.

My views:

* The steadiness in some American churches is perhaps due to the migrants from Latin American countries. Most of those migrants are catholics. And without them,some American Catholic churches would have ended-up having in attendance only some old hard core believers.

* The more the Christian Right and bigoted Right Wingers attack Islam,the more curious and open-minded Americans have already started exploring Islam. What impact such a trend,on conversion and attendance at the Christian churches,is any body guess. A large number of copies of the Qur’an has been requested,from various Islamic organizations,by ordinary American. It looks like that Newton’s Third Law In Motion applies here.

* Darkness belongs to the European Dark Ages. It had stemmed from ignorance of the populace in Europe. The people of the 21st century are different from the European ignorant populace of the Dark Ages.

elisa,

In couple of days,I intend to close my computer for the Holiday. I look forward to spend it with my grandchildren and their parents and enjoy cooking for them and playing games with them.

Before I close the computer,I wish you a very very Happy Holiday Season and may the New Year be a better one for you and your loved ones than the
year is about to be history.

Above all,please take good care of your health.Nothing else really matters-not even reading Chris Hedges and posting on Truth Dig.

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By Anarcissie, December 14, 2011 at 1:00 pm Link to this comment

So if Life has no intelligence or agency, and we are here and it is there, what is it we are to respect, and how?

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By Lumpenproletarier, December 14, 2011 at 9:42 am Link to this comment

Dear Anarcissie,

Respect can only exist with consciousness. Life, as a whole on this pale blue dot, has no consciousness, therefore it can neither respect nor disrespect “us”.

At this point in time, human beings appear to be the only form of life on this planet which has evolved a level of consciousness to allow an awareness of Life as a whole. We can see the reality of our place in the universe. We now have the awareness that in the vastness of space, we are but a mote of dust in an empty and lifeless void. We can now begin to understand how rare and precious life is; all life. Down to the lowliest virus, life is rare beyond comprehension.

We appear to be the first creatures on earth to have evolved to this level of awareness. We are the first to evolve the capacity to respect or disrespect life as a whole; having achieved this level of consciousness, it is now our choice what we will do with it.

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By Anarcissie, December 14, 2011 at 9:12 am Link to this comment

Does Life respect us?

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, December 14, 2011 at 9:05 am Link to this comment

Lumpenproletarier, Respect for life yes, and with quality winning over quantity. 

The aggregate power of those living from hidden slaveries and the plunder and abuse of oil will magically work to keep any discussions of quality of life (over quantity) unnoticeable.

wrt the withering of Christianity?  No, it’s not withering, it’s morphing.  It’s morphing such that it will continue to allow the modern incarnation of ‘weak man’ to kill and plunder, absolved under the name of god.  Christianity can be made to work very efficiently with the ambition of the powerful to offset whatever native morality men may have.  Oh, it can be made to work for good purposes too, but there is a differential in efficiency which works better for bad stuff.

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By Lumpenproletarier, December 14, 2011 at 8:02 am Link to this comment

Religion is an invention of the human mind. It’s most “useful” aspect is as a means to avoid confronting the reality of our lives, and the world.

For humanity to progress, there is but one philosophy we must adopt and live: Respect for Life.

Please don’t confuse this idea with the Pro-Life movement; that group does not respect life.

Respect for Life is simple: Just ask yourself “Is what I am doing respectful to life; all life?” Of course we all do lots of things which don’t respect life; many of them we might not even recognize as being disrespectful to life. Asking the question begins a process of understanding; it raises the consciousness. It is the beginning of real change.

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By elisalouisa, December 14, 2011 at 5:07 am Link to this comment

It has been my observation that Churches worldwide no longer have the attendance they once had. Vocations for the priesthood and convent are not what they once were. Contributions in all religions are diminishing. One could conclude that such statistics reflect the faith of the people.

Of course, you may choose to believe otherwise and if you can back up your comments with related articles all the better.

This may be of interest:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7575351

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By heterochromatic, December 13, 2011 at 11:51 pm Link to this comment

If you’re refering to Christianity only in the US, that’s something entirely different, I
would think, from saying that it’s “winding down”.  it’s a big wide world, we’re
about 3% of the population, and who can predict that a trend away from Christian
observance won’t reverse, We’ve had plenty of revivals in our history here…..far
from the center of Christianity.

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By elisalouisa, December 13, 2011 at 11:38 pm Link to this comment

I refer you to but one article confirming my comments as to Christianity:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2009-03-09-american-religion-ARIS_N.htm

The moral fiber of the nation may also be changing. That is my perspective, yours
appears to be otherwise heterochromatic.

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By heterochromatic, December 13, 2011 at 10:20 pm Link to this comment

~~~~~~in following the course of history for the last one hundred years one
cannot help but conclude that Christianity is winding down, ~~~~~

that’s one hell of a thought. and maybe it isn’t really one thought as the
contention isn’t really clear or really demonstrable.

it certainly won’t be dying within the next century….and it’s possible that it might
lick up a couple of hundred million new adherents in the far east.

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By elisalouisa, December 13, 2011 at 7:09 pm Link to this comment

I emphatically agree with all you say Sodium-Na. That said, in following the course of history for the last one hundred years one cannot help but conclude that Christianity is winding down, perhaps resulting in practice of the Ten Commandments and the Beatitudes soon becoming a thing of the past. What shall
fill the void left by the absence of Christianity? Shall some of the New Atheist beliefs take hold, with the the neo-cons in the forefront? A period of darkness perhaps? Do you have any thoughts on that Sodium-Na? Or do you feel Christianity as well as other religions shall stay on course and continue to exert influence on Western Society.

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By Sodium-Na, December 13, 2011 at 1:56 pm Link to this comment

Lumpen,

Although in my last post addressed to you I have tried to be as explicit as I possibly could to a point of mentioning that “the human actions or inaction have been a mix bag of good and evil”,I would try once more to explore this issue with you,since you sounded to me as a decent human being.

Recorded human history is the guide as I try to understand good and evil.

Since the Old Testament is well recorded and in it plenty of information that shows the struggle between good and evil.Since Adam and Eve were kicked out from God’s Paradise,the struggle between good and evil has intensified ever since. Just to proof this point I submit the following notes:

(1) The first act of war in human history was when Cain murdered his brother Abel. That is evil.

(2) The first suiside bomer in human history had taken place when Samson destroyed the temple of his enemy on himself and his enemies,saying"On me and my enemies,my Lord” That is evil,since many of his enemies were innocent civilians who had nothing to do with his captivity. (There is an old movie titled,“Samson and Dalilah”,leading actor Victor Matur and leading actress Hydi Lamar. Try to find it in your local library and see it. It is worth seeing)

(3) The first genocide in human history had taken place when Joshua,(disciple of Moses),conquered Jericho with the help of Cannanite prostitute living inside the wall of Jericho and killed in the process more than 20,000 human being. That is evil by any standard of measurement. (Note: what is beyond my comprehension is the fact that Judaism,Christianity and Islam revere him,as one of the prophets. As far as I am concerned he was a mass murderer)

On the opposite side of the equation,human history tell us that good has expressed itself in many different form in attempts to neutralize the efect of the evil actions:

(A) The teaching of the Ten Commandments. That is a good thing. I have no problem embracing most of the commandments.

(B) The good teachings of Jesus Christ,as they expressed in the New Testament. Chris Hedges cited some of them in his recent speech. I recited them in one of my earlier posts.

(C) Good deeds,good actions being done by indivisuals of the caliber of Mother Teresa,Gandhi,the activists of the peace movement,the Arab youths who are struggling against corruption and for freedom;whether they succeed or not is really a different matter. The point is the fact that their struggle is for good against evil.

I can go on and on and on citing endless examples for both good and evil,from human history. The point to remember is that: Since time immemorial,the struggle between good and evil has never ceased. This struggle between good and evil brings me to comment on the need for a movement like OWS:

~ The decision makers in the U.S. are not the majority of members of Congress and Exucative branch,not even members of the Suprem court. Those are the products of the financial power that helped electing them,in the first place. That does not mean that there are not independent members. There are,but in the minority.To put it bluntly,the decision makers are the Ruling Class,the class of billionairs and multi-millionairs. With a few exceptions,most of them abuse the system for their own financial gains. 

~ The Ruling Class in the U.S. make only one percent of the population,but own most of the wealth. The rest of population has been suffering for the last 30 years.

~ The Ruling Class in the U. S. has “first cousins” in ever rich country in the globe. They are the international bankisters who rule the globe and those people’s greed has no bound. There is unwritten agreement between the international bankisters and the Ruling Class to keep the wealth amonst them while the vast majority of the people of the world continue to suffer.

It looks like evil is succeeding against good. I would not bit on that yet. That should answer your question why having Occupy Movement: That is to defeat the evil deeds.

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By Lumpenproletarier, December 13, 2011 at 9:23 am Link to this comment

Dear Sodium-Na,

Well, if you are saying that the “evil” side of human nature “might have” prevailed, then what you are asserting by default is that the “good” side has prevailed.

If the “good” side has prevailed, then why do we need an Occupy movement at all?

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By Anarcissie, December 12, 2011 at 8:23 pm Link to this comment

colin2626262, December 12 at 4:58 pm:

Anarcissie, I think you’re right.  Jesus did mean for the beatitudes to be taken literally.  Yet their underlying source comes from the belief in God, which is metaphysical.  ...

It seems to me that Jesus speaks about God as a living person, not an abstract or higher-level entity, as Plato might have.

We may be using the term metaphysical in different ways.

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By Sodium-Na, December 12, 2011 at 7:39 pm Link to this comment

Re: Lumpenproletarier,December 12 at 1:39 pm.

“What evidence do you have to support your assertion that the “good” side of the human nature has prevailed”

Lempenproletarier,

Please go back and read my post more carefully.You may realize that there was no “assertion” in the last paragraph. All I stated that without the good teachings in every religion the EVIL SIDE OF THE HUMAN NATURE MIGHT HAVE PREVAILED AND THE HUMAN RACE MIGHT HAVE ENDED-UP SELFISHLY CANNIBALIZING ITSELF TO,PERHAPS,EXTINCTION.

The operative words,“MIGHT HAVE”,were used twice in the paragraph. And the word,“PERHAPS”,used once. Hence,I see no explicit or implicit “assertion”. I was simply talking about possibilities or less so, probabilities.

Perhaps,you may agree that human actions or inactions have been a mix bag of good and evil. Some samples of good actions I think you might have been familiar with:

~ FDR’s “New deal” for helping people and the country in getting out of the Great Depression. What FDR had done was magnificent,indeed.

~ Eisenhower’s only EIGHT YEARS OF PEACE in seventy years. That was the only period no American blood was shed in foreign lands.

As to the evil actions committed by some members of the human race,the following samples might suffice:

~ The Holocaust: Gazing millions of human beings because they were Jews,Gipsies(Gypsies),or for just being,somehow,different from the “master?” race!

~ Wars whether justified or unjustified: Anyone who thinks there is an animal called justified war,better remember the cold war. Apparently America won the war,but ended-up a bankrupt country,fighting its current perpetual wars by borrowed money from foreign governments. As Eisenhower was quoted saying that every dollar spent on manufacturing tanks,guns and aircrafts is a dollar taken away from the food to feed a child and to shelter a poor child. These are not Eisenhower exact words but they are close enough to what he said.

I hope I have answered your reasonable question.

As to the other comments of yours,I prefer to refrain from commenting on,since it is your prerogative for your opinion as I have. And I leave it at that.

Cheers for peace for the human race…....

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By colin2626262, December 12, 2011 at 5:58 pm Link to this comment

Anarcissie, I think you’re right.  Jesus did mean for the beatitudes to be taken literally.  Yet their underlying source comes from the belief in God, which is metaphysical. 

As for what I said about the the protests against economic inequality not being a spiritual movement like Hedges thinks, I’ll say this:

The desires of the protest movement here, if you can even call it a movement, are in a sense spiritual: wanting to have a more just society in which greed doesn’t play such a major part.  But I really haven’t seen too many people express religious convictions to back up their political stances.  In order to have a spiritual movement, you first have to have spiritual people in the country, lovers of God.  And your religion has to be based on love of your brothers and sisters in God.  Socialist or anarchist leanings don’t constitute spirituality, despite what some progressive religious people might think. 

Jesus said sell everything you have and give it to the poor, but that wasn’t a political statement, wasn’t tied to a left-wing ideology.  He said that because his faith in God told him that we should care about those in need, those who are suffering.  Spirituality is essentially selfless love.  If there’s a movement that exhibits those qualities, and people are expressing their belief in God in the process, count me in.  I’ll be the first one to join that movement.  I just don’t see it yet in America.

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By heterochromatic, December 12, 2011 at 3:20 pm Link to this comment

Of course, Jesus waited until Aristotle couldn’t attend.

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By Anarcissie, December 12, 2011 at 3:07 pm Link to this comment

My strong impression from reading the Gospels is that Jesus regarded the Beatitudes as materially true statements, not abstractions or metaphors.  Hence, I would not call them metaphysical.  If only Aristotle had been present at the Sermon on the Mount; he could have interrogated Jesus as to his ontology and rhetoric!  But no luck.

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By heterochromatic, December 12, 2011 at 2:56 pm Link to this comment

As I said, Hedges writes well and Hedges was a good reporter, when he was a
reporter.


Byt what hedges now is a man who calls Jeremiah Wright “a prophet” and says that
people who turn away from Wright put their souls in jeopardy.


formerly a good reporter, currently a couple cards shy of a full deck.

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By Lumpenproletarier, December 12, 2011 at 2:39 pm Link to this comment

Dear Sodium-Na,

A writer/speaker/leader in this country with a large following is usually traced to the fact that he/she is telling them what they want to hear.

Being “fully convinced” of anything is intellectually dangerous. De omnibus dubitandum

How does one determine the “good teachings” in religion from the “bad teachings”? If you have this ability (and I have no doubt that you do) why not just skip the religion part altogether and figure out what is “good” and “bad” on your own?

What evidence do you have to support your assertion that the “good” side of human nature has prevailed?

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By Sodium-Na, December 12, 2011 at 2:12 pm Link to this comment

Few points to those who think they have what it takes to be “critical thinkers?” of what Chris Hedges writes:


~ Metaphysical or not,his writings have a remarkable following on Truthdig forums. Please do not tell me that all those followers are a bunch of fools!

~ Metaphysical or not,his writings have greater numbers of followers on Common Dreams’forums than at Truthdig’s. Most of the times,the number of followers on Common Dreams is twice as large as that at Truthdig. And again,please do not tell me that all those followers at Common Dreams are also a bunch of fools!

~ A writer/author having such large numbers of followers must be doing something right to attract such large numbers at two different websites.

~ It is sheer hypocrisy to try to discredit his brilliant writings,meanwhile follow what he writes week in and week out and try to discredit what he writes,with no grain of success whatsoever

~ If I do not take his writings seriously,I would not have cared to read his weekly columns on Truthdig or on Common Dreams. I have more important things to do. And I would have refrained from reading them,as I have refrained from watching FoxNews for the last five years,at least,because I was gradually and fully convinced it was FIXED NEWS I could not take seriously.

I have followed what Hedges writes since he was stationed in the Middle East,as the bureau chief for The New York Times. That is more than twenty years ago.

Reading what he has written for so long,I have found his broad knowledge,honesty and eloquence rarely matched by his peers. And I know the Middle East and its problems just too well to be fooled by any reporter,since I worked and lived there for more than twenty years. I know its language,cultures and history. 

In short,it takes more than posting an opinionated shallow post,now and then,to pursaude me that what he brilliantly writes is not taken seriously by the bloggers who post on Truthdig and Common Dreams. I believe that the reality is exactly the opposite of such a claim.

Just for the records,I am an AGNOSTIC who does not believe in any religion,but embraces every good teaching in every religion,because without such good teachings,the evil side of the human nature might have prevailed and the human race might have ended-up selfishly cannibalizing itself to,perhaps,extinction.

Have a nice day.

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By Lumpenproletarier, December 12, 2011 at 1:36 pm Link to this comment

Hedges at first praises the past work of The Church in cases where it supported and helped oppressed peoples, but then shifts focus onto all of the atrocities which have occured through history and The Church did little or nothing. He seems to be trying to shame the Church into action, implying that if they do not join in support of the Occupy movement, that they will be reduced to irrelevance. If religion was based on truth, logic, and reason, then reduction to irrelevance would be a tragic loss; but it’s not. We keep indoctrinating the same stale fairly tails into generation after generation of our children. We instill in them guilt and fear, we plant in our future the seeds of bigotry. The sooner that all comes to an end, the better. So please, Churches, if you are listening, stay out of our lives, our minds, and our bedrooms; we don’t want or need your kind of help any more. And for those in the movement who wonder why, as Hedges does, that The Church hesitates to use it’s power and wealth for political reasons in the United States, it is becasue of money. With a simple nod from the Plutocracy in this country, Churches could be stripped of their non-profit, charitable organization tax status, and the CEO’s of The Church know this; their true God is money, and they will do anything for Him.

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By colin2626262, December 12, 2011 at 12:23 pm Link to this comment

“Blessed are the pure of heart, for they will see God.”

If this is not metaphysical, I don’t know what is, unless you think you can see God with your eyes.  Personally, I don’t find the Occupy movement to be a spiritual movement as Chris Hedges stated when he was speaking with Cornel West.  The only real change will come metaphysically, that is, from within us, from the feeling of love, the spiritual feeling that can only be found in God.

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By Anarcissie, December 12, 2011 at 9:17 am Link to this comment

A lot of Truthdig readers seem to get enormous pleasure out of the metaphysical stuff, so I’ve been biting my tongue this time around.

Of course, the Beatitudes weren’t metaphysical when they were uttered.  They have become metaphysical because almost no one takes them seriously.  Or maybe the right word is ‘literary’.  ‘Blssed are the poor, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven’: it’s surrealist poetry.

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By heterochromatic, December 12, 2011 at 8:57 am Link to this comment

Sodium, Hedges writes a good sermon.  he also can report facts well, and used to
do so before he retreated from this world back into the metaphysical one.

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By Sodium-Na, December 12, 2011 at 8:30 am Link to this comment

Some Of The Gems In Chris Hedges’ Speech:
=========================================

Any human being who has a sensitive soul,most likely,will be touched by the eloquence and obvious sincerity of Hedge’s speech.

He has eloquently and sincerely covered many issues in the minds of the populace. However,he has certainly hit the jackpot by making the following beautiful gems as an integral part of his speech:

Quote
=====

BIBLICAL GEMS:
**************
~ Blessed are the poor in spirit,for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

~ Blessed are they who mourn,for they shall be comforted.

~ Blessed are the meek,for they shall possess the earth.

~ Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for justice,for they shall be satisfied.

~ Blessed are the merciful,for they will obtain mercy.

~ Blessed are the pure of heart,for they will see God.

~ Blessed are the peacemakers,for they shall be called sons and daughters of God.

~ Blessed are they who suffer persecution for justice sake,for theirs is the kongdom of heaven.

POETIC GEMS:
************
What happens to a dream deferred?
Does it dry up
Like a raisin in the sun?
or fester like a sore-
And then run?
Does it stink like rotten meat?
or crust and sugar over-
Like a syrup sweet?

Maybe it just sags
Like a heavy load.

Or doest it explode?

Unquote
========

It seems to me that those gems quoted above have said it all for the Occupy Movement in the U.S.and everywhere else across the globe.

A speech came out from the small corners of the human heart,beautifully written and delivered.

It seems to me that Chris Hedges has already and relentlessly talked the talk and walked the walk,and sometimes with a few enlightened supporters.

And above all,his writings,debates and speeches have been inspirational to those who are touched by the essence of what he tries to tell them;whether they are readers,debaters or listeners.

I am one of his defout readers and listeners and I highly appreciate what he is trying to convey to the human race that has lost its direction in economic equity,justice for the meek,poor,homeless and in perpetual wars that seem to have no visible ends.

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By guysorow, December 11, 2011 at 7:43 pm Link to this comment

If Geewiz were alive today he would be very old. That said I belive the great
one would support the OWS. Why you ask? Well simply put banks tend to
be a bit nasty toward fishermen in sandals. Not to mention window
shoppers, and all those who don’t worship their god “Paperman ” who hath
bestowed upon the rightous pickpocket all manner of goodness. Sinners
like the great one who preach outdoors cause who needs a building to say
a few good words shall be cast down with the multitude of multipliers who
smell kinda funny on warm days. Amen

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By kathy sullivan, December 11, 2011 at 1:17 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

amen!  Another great article from one of my favorite writers!

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By Anarcissie, December 11, 2011 at 10:10 am Link to this comment

It seems to me that before we all set about modifying Christianity those who are intent on the modifications should specify what their commitment to Christianity is.  And, I suppose, their concept of it as well.  Beyond observing that I don’t think anyone who took the Beatitudes and the rest of the Sermon on the Mount seriously could possibly take ordinary politics seriously, I will not be participating in the enterprise: what the Christians do and think about Christianity is their business until they make it mine.

In regard to Freire and some of the commentaries I have read about his work, I think there is a basic and obvious contradiction between egalitarianism and the (usual) teacher-student relation.  Maybe it is one of those productive contradictions that does good as it resolves itself, or maybe not.

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By David J. Cyr, December 11, 2011 at 9:55 am Link to this comment

For any liberation movement (whether theology or secular based) to achieve change for good, through political action in these Corporate States of America, it must have both the ability and will to disembowel the greatest impediment to that goal — the corporate party’s Democrats.

America’s liberals are its true conservatives, whose orthodoxy best protects and preserves all the rot that should be removed. America’s “progressive” liberals conform to a religion doggedly devoted to corporate crime complicity, having faith-based claims in a belief that good will only come from their ever stalwart support of evil being more competently done by Democrats. They are corporate party (D)evil worshippers.

Jill Stein for President:

http://www.jillstein.org

The “Principles” of Liberal Voters:

http://chenangogreens.org/home/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=491&Itemid=1

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By Albion's Fall, December 9, 2011 at 9:51 am Link to this comment

@Don,

Of course you’re right! I assumed you’d be familiar with “Pedagogy”, but on the off-chance you weren’t… plus, I think some of the other folks contributing here might enjoy it. Always good to get the word out.

I agree with What is Progress on the need for what we might call a “Christian Renaissance” in this country; a movement to challenge the Right Wing orthodoxy that seems to have turned the Christian faith into a vehicle for free market idolatry and anti-Democracy. I think Don asks the necessary questions for considering what such a renaisaance would look like, and I’ll attempt to answer a couple of them, drawing on what I know about Paulo Freire’s pedagogy of the oppressed (which is informed by the tenets of liberation theology).

Don asks: “Does liberation theology actually aim at changing the political and social environments of the subjects ? Or does liberation theology serve to simply redirect the religious customs of the target group ?”

I’d go with the former. As I understand it, the goal of liberation theology is transformation. Freire writes that it ccours in two stages:

“In the first, the oppressed unveil the world of oppression and through the praxis commit themselves to its transformation. In the second stage, in which the reality of oppression has already been transformed, this pedagogy ceases to belong to the oppressed and becomes a pedagogy of all people in the process of liberation. In both stages, it is always through action in depth that the culture of domination is culturally confronted.”

So, the goal is to use faith, not as a tool of submission, conformity, and oppression, but as a means of identifying and confronting the inequity and false consciousness of the social order. The idea is to understand Christianity as dialogic, open to interpretation, and critical of institutions and power relationships and through this dialogue to “unveil” the oppressive reality of the State.

Don writes: “...a last and most important question might be WHO DECIDES what ‘enlightenment’ would be for this target audience.”

I liked this question. I think Freire would answer that people arrive at the answer of their own accord. In other words, it is up to them to decide what “enlightenment” is, although I’d argue that Freire wouldn’t use that term. I think he was more concerned with progression than with some sort of final stage of development. He talks frequently about the process of becoming more fully human, which seems to me the most important message. Freire described education as “co-intentional”, meaning

“Teachers and students (leadership and people), co-intent on reality, are both Subjects, not only in the task of unveiling that reality, and thereby coming to know it critically, but in the task of re-creating that knowledge. As they attain this knowledge of reality through common reflection and action, they discover themselves as its permanent re-creators.”

The condition of “enlightenment” strikes me as being an endpoint; it focuses our attention on a conclusion - a product of consciousness, if you will - when our focus should rather be on the process itself. I like the idea of being a “permanent re-creator” of reality.

I hope this added to our discussion of Liberation Theology and its possibilities. Certainly, I think Occupy could serve as the vehicle for the kind of Christian Renaissance we seem to agree is necessary and good for the country. As Anarcissie noted, Occupy exists as a judgment of ideas and principles which demean and dehumanize us all - an excellent foundation for a critical transformation of faith.

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By Anarcissie, December 9, 2011 at 8:24 am Link to this comment

Anti-intellectualism, in America, at least, goes back to the radical egalitarianism of the early Protestants, who believed in the ‘priesthood of all believers’—the notion that every person could interpret the Scriptures, not just a priestly elite. 

Intellectuality and science have generally presented themselves to the people as authoritarian and class-based, regardless of what they might be in some other social arrangement.  Intellectuals and scientists are trained in expensive schools, obtain credentials from institutions, and stand at the side of the rich and powerful.  If there is a conflict between the high and the low, between the elite and the masses, there is no doubt which side they are on.

One can despise this spirit, but we owe our liberal ideas like those in the Bill of Rights to it—if authority is unquestionably wise, good, and efficacious, people don’t need rights or the messiness of limited government and democracy.

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By DonSchneider, December 9, 2011 at 7:06 am Link to this comment

Albion’s Fall, it is was so expected that you suggest I read “Pedagogy of the
Oppressed”  for enlightenment !  Thank you, but I believe I first mentioned
Friere in these few exchanges of ours. Assumptions are easy and predicatable
from believers. I was acquainted with Paulo and his works back in the seventies
when working up reading lists for seminars on adult and non-formal education
in latin-america.. I find the direction taken by posts after our first exchange to
be interesting and hopeful . Hopeful that people are looking from different
perspectives at “Liberation Theology” . Hopeful that the discussion will evolve
into questions like,  Does liberation theology actually aim at changing the
political and social environments of the subjects ? Or does liberation theology
serve to simply redirect the religious customs of the target group ? Or does
liberation theology allow the clergy and it’s proponents a softer approach to
religious hegemony in a wavering population ?  Or can liberation theology ever
present approaches to social conditions that will successfully end in the social
and political “enlightenment” of a target audience in the face of
institutionalized opposition ?  and a last and most important question might be
WHO DECIDES what “enlightenment” would be for this target audience.  Nice to
have the opportunity to see these ideas bouncing about !

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By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, December 9, 2011 at 6:23 am Link to this comment

IMO, it is absolutely necessary to form a new religion for a segment of the population.  This quote embodies the reasons…..

“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that ‘my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.’”  ? Isaac Asimov

Overall, people are threatened by their alone-ness, and lack of power to secure their futures, and will surrender to a state, corporation or religion which promises to somehow either empower, take care, or at least look out for.

When paired with evangelism, I hear resonating under the quote above the unrealized and unspoken understanding of how damn ignorant (powerless) great numbers of the population (they themselves) are.  Lousy sentence, granted, but people band together because they sense their vulnerability, and seek whatever viable alternative (religion, corporation, state) can manage to coalesce.

What is lacking in evangelism is a real moral center, so evangelism will only attract the opportunistic hypocrite.  Jesus wants you to be rich?  Huh?  What is needed, by religion or government, is a mechanism by which those who sacrifice for the common good will indeed have guaranteed security.  This must be paired with the stick, which through morals and law returns ‘ill gotten gains’ to some repository for the general commonwealth.  ‘ill-gotten’ gains includes usury, gouging, much of the profit of the rentier class, profits from market manipulation, and profits from rape of public lands.  All ‘morality’ are tools, which eventually inspire laws to ensure these aims. 

And a corrupt minister is exactly as a corrupt politician.  They know who butters their bread.  Keeping any church bureaucracy on the straight and narrow seems as difficult as keeping the Legislature clean.  A suggestion?  Don’t allow people to control a congregation who live solely from the collection plate. 

Our society doesn’t seem to push enough wise people toward positions of influence at an adequate rate to overcome the rats and corruption that gravitate toward politics.  There is no feeder system to bring a new generation of decent (and capable) leaders into power.  And there is no widely agreeable moral nucleus or social contract around which to build such a school.

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By Anarcissie, December 8, 2011 at 9:44 pm Link to this comment

‘Judge not, lest you be judged’ seems to refer to human beings.  Things—ideas, systems, objects, words, acts—could still be judged.

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By heterochromatic, December 8, 2011 at 7:40 pm Link to this comment

gerard~~~ how could Liberation Theology NOT be judgmental? It seeks to judge
this world and act to change it. How can you not judge what and who it is that
need to be changed?

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By gerard, December 8, 2011 at 7:12 pm Link to this comment

Thanks, Albion’s Fall:  My honest feeling is that Christian fundamentalists (or maybe better say “fundamentalists” of any kind) actually do not want empowerment in the sense of deciding for oneself what to do to make things better, and then doing it, according to Christian or any other moral principles.
  I would point to broad overall characteristics of wanting to go back to some imaginary historical behavior—do it like they did it, for one reason or another (hero worship, patriotism?) In other words—don’t originate, which requires creativity and freedom of thought and action.  Do what was made orthodox by history.
  Also, the emphasis on judgmentalism favoring orthodoxy, legal or religious.  Ergo, poor people “deserve” to be “punished” because they are lazy, (non-white-protestant minorities) different from us, etc. People who commit crimes “deserve” to be in jails (even when those jails are inhumane and unjust) because they have “sinned” whereas I have not—at least not that sin, or not that much! Judgmentalism favoring orthodoxy, legal or religious. Capital punishment is okay becaue “the wages of sin is death.” etc.
  I’m no authority on Liberation Theology, but I don’t think of it as judgmental, but tolerant and forgiving. I don’t think of it as primarily
“conservative” but as radically Christian (at the root and in manifestation). Also, primarily pacifistic rather than aggressive and pro-military.
Just some thoughts.  I appreciate your response.
  It’s an interesting idea, and I wish it might “come true” but doubt that it will. I think any movement toward unity will come from agreement on awareness of the inter-relation to overpowering economic needs that swamp cultural barriers.

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By Albion's Fall, December 8, 2011 at 6:10 pm Link to this comment

gerard,

I enjoyed your comment, and agree with you - up to a point. Liberation theology served to help awaken the consciousness of people who were intellectually and emotionally crippled by the inequities of in their social order. The method of such theology was to take the faith they already had and use it as a way to introduce and facilitate critical literacy. In essence, the goal was to restructure their belief systems around the idea of empowerment rather than submission. I think this idea is important to consider when we talk about the rise of Christian fundamentalism in America.

Chris Hedges, in “American Fascism”, provides several interesting vignettes of born-agains coming into their faith out of despair, hopelessness, and emotional or spiritual hollowness. What seems to draw them in is the apparent fulfillment and sense of community that fundies typically project. As you rightly point out, such communities are bound by the pressures of surveillance and conformity, and perhaps that sort of thing is actually appealing to some people. But Hedges argues, and I tend to agree, that a lot of them stay simply because they have absolutely no alternative.

So, what if they were offeed another way to engage with their faith? A way that taught them strength instead of dependency? Critical inquiry and conversation instead of lecture and dogma? As you suggest, it won’t be long until “we’re in the same boat” as the people to whom liberation theology proved a path to social justice and a more relative equality. I think it’s a matter of finding an American model, and that’s the tricky part: what does such a model look like and how do you make it work?

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By gerard, December 8, 2011 at 3:27 pm Link to this comment

An interesting sidebar on talk about “Liberation Theology” and whether or not it might possibly be grafted onto Christian Fundamentalism in some way which might result in doctrinal peacemaking and mutuality.  I doubt it.  Why?  Because Christian Fundamentalists, in my experience, are not looking to be “liberated.”  They want, need and depend upon following the “teachings of Christ” as set forth in the literal interpretation of the Bible as prescribed by preachers entitled to interpret the Bible to fit orthodox prescriptions. It is following that circularity which makes them feel safe and included and healthy, wealthy and wise enough to get from today to tomorrow. They are “saved” from needing to change, which is always difficult and uncertain.
  “Liberation Theology” was founded on the idea and practice of attaining social, political, spiritual freedom based on the basic principles taught by Jesus—faith, hope, charity, justice, mercy, brotherhoood, peace. It was both a forward and a backward looking theology, which made it so appealing to people who were absolutely forced to discover new meanings in old words.
  We’re in the same boat, though many don’t seem to realize it. We need to change (and institutionalize) the meaning of “democracy”, “justice”, “equal opportunity” and “peace.”  Maybe Occupiers ...using other words, other ideas, other methods .......?  So far, they show definite signs of progress in that direction.

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By Albion's Fall, December 8, 2011 at 2:49 pm Link to this comment

Don,

I’m as skeptical of institutionalized religion as I am of any other institution, and that’s just why liberation theology appeals to me. I’m also an admirer of Freire, though I didn’t realize he was of the clergy. I understood him as the architect of liberation pedagogy, which I thought of as an extension of liberation theology, albeit with a more secular bent. His critique of traditionalist pedagogy in 1960s Brazil is disturbingly applicable to American edcuation in 2011, which seems to have become increasingly retrograde since No Child Left Behind. In an American context, the dehumanizing nature of our dominant pedagogy, with its rigidity and transparent marketization, is a perfect example of a system that reflects the subversion of democracy by idolators of the free market. In any case, Freire’s “Pedagogy of the Oppressed” is an enlightening read, certainly worth checking out if you haven’t already done so. If I had it my way, it’d be required reading for every prospective teacher educator.

http://www.amazon.com/Pedagogy-Oppressed-Anniversary-Paulo-Freire/dp/0826412769/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1323380324&sr=8-1

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By DonSchneider, December 8, 2011 at 2:13 pm Link to this comment

Albion’s Fall, Yes I am well aware of the christian theologians battling for
libertad ! One of the First that I was aware of was Paulo Friere, who spent his
life in Brazil. A lot of his followers who worked on programs of political
theology through adult education efforts via primarily radio education efforts ,
died for their efforts at the hands of their christian countrymen. I believe , but
am not certain of this but I remember the catholic church declaring him an
“unofficial” martyr to the cause even though the pope had threatened him with
sanctions time and again for his work, and brazilian bishops threatened to
defrock him for refusing to stop his radio ed programs. Mainstream religious
orgs. are to religion as Corporate America is to Justice !  Expecting a large
body of left leaning support from the christian world is like “hand-wishing” as
the old timers in the Ky Coal mine region used to say….wish in one hand and
crap in the other and see which one fills up !
Christians, nod and smile at them, but count on them for nothing requiring
critical thinking .

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By Albion's Fall, December 8, 2011 at 12:51 pm Link to this comment

Your point is well taken , Don. I guess I was thinking about more radicalized, less institutionalized Christian movements, like the Liberation Theologians in Central America, and, to a much lesser degree, the Jesuits. These are groups who use Scripture, not for brainwashing, but as a foundation for critical reflection. Some part of me thinks that such a theology might be a way into freeing some of the right wing fundies from the shackles of their orthodoxy, giving them another way to conceive of their religious convictions. Probably naive, but given the number of Christians in this country, it might not be a complete waste of time, either.

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By Anarcissie, December 8, 2011 at 12:49 pm Link to this comment

There are an awful lot of Christians and have been for some time.  It’s just possible they’re not all alike.

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By DonSchneider, December 8, 2011 at 12:26 pm Link to this comment

Albion’s Fall, If not mistaken, the Jews of Spain thought they had christian allies
too and then, the inquisition . Native Americans in Massachusetts claimed
christians as their allies as well, until more of their lands were coveted by the
growing christian populations.  Norsmen, muslims,templars,albegensians,jews in
nazi germany and austria, some herzegovinians,bosnians,macedonians,
albanians,catalonians etc etc No the history of christians as allies is sordid at
best my friend. I run from any group or organization leaning on religion as the
bulwark of thought and/or ideology. They are always exclusive in nature ! Allies
for any cause ? The wise look elsewhere ! Tolerate, yes, rely on ?  When pigs fly !

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By Albion's Fall, December 8, 2011 at 11:16 am Link to this comment

I try to not be overly judgmental, Don. It has been curiousto see so much disdain for Christianity, though. I don’t necessarily see who is served by excluding Chrsitians who, like Hedges, view their religion in humanistic, spiritual terms, rather than as political blunt instrument. Why, as a fledgling movement, would you turn your back on a group of people who might be well prove a strong ally as time goes by?

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By Anarcissie, December 8, 2011 at 10:58 am Link to this comment

heterochromatic—Isn’t it something of a universal truism that people necessarily see the world through the framework of their beliefs and values?  Not exempting minorities of belief and value.  Although a minority (for example, a leftist) does get the experience of having beliefs challenged, which mainstreamers may not, many of those so challenged just become more hardened and resistant, the most outstanding example being the adherence of end-of-the-world believers to their faith when the world fails to end.

Perhaps I am to blame for reciting the truism in the first place.  Obviously, mainstream journalists, to be successful, must either have the right beliefs and values to satisfy their bosses and customers, or be able to simulate them.  When they confront something strange like OWS, which doesn’t fall into their system, they are likely to translate their perceptions into something that does.  In the case of OWS, they have persistently seen it as an organization in pursuit of power.  Hence articles like ‘What OWS Must Do Now’ (in order to persist, grow, gain power), and the demand for demands, which is what power-seeking political organizations issue.

Isn’t this all pretty much a cliché?

Well, at least I have avoided criticizing Hedges this time, although I was severely tempted.

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By heterochromatic, December 8, 2011 at 10:02 am Link to this comment

Ana,, but the point remains…do journalists with a mainstream POV and/or a paid
gig “redefine” reality more than unconventional and/or amateur writers?

I thought that your suggestion that they do was interesting and hoped to goad you
into following up a bit…

(hoped you liked the song)

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By DonSchneider, December 8, 2011 at 9:55 am Link to this comment

Albion’s fall, no apology necessary. I comment on the article as follows: I liked it
and thought it interesting. But I found nothing in it that I thought exceedingly
worthy of praise , or disdain.  I commented on the posters. If in your eyes, that
relegates me to the “mass of troglodytes” in your eyes, so be it !

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By Anarcissie, December 8, 2011 at 9:51 am Link to this comment

heterochromatic, December 7 at 9:12 pm:

~~~~and the people who write for them can’t help but redefine what they see in
terms of how they see things~~~~

and they’re less than those brave souls who redefine what they see in the way that they don’t see things?

I can write a kind of boilerplated prose that preempts this sort of vacuous wisecrack, but it’s boring to do, and boring to read, too.

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By IMax, December 8, 2011 at 9:50 am Link to this comment

Anarcissie,

Yes, Prescriptions. Thank you.

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By Albion's Fall, December 8, 2011 at 9:48 am Link to this comment

With apologies for mangling your name, Don.

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By Albion's Fall, December 8, 2011 at 9:45 am Link to this comment

DonSchniderman,

May I ask if you have “an intelligent response” to Hedges’ “good essay”? Or are you content with joining the “troglodytes” in their mental masturbation? If you’re dissatisfied with the level of discourse, why not lead by example, even if it is only to cast pearls before swine? Otherwise, you risk appearing as just another garden variety troll, a species which seems to do well here at Truthdig.

I hope you’ll take the time to post something meaningful.

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By heterochromatic, December 8, 2011 at 9:27 am Link to this comment

Don~~~~ it’s really terrible when people go to a site where they can dissent in just
the same way—and there are people there who don’t conform….

really terrible.

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By Anarcissie, December 8, 2011 at 9:23 am Link to this comment

IMax, December 8 at 6:20 am:

Anarcissie, - “There was a lot in what I wrote beside cookies…”

I realize that Anarc. It’s just that, well, your prescriptions continue to be so vague I leaned on your cookie test in reply.

The problem with written text is that lite-hearted humor often gets lost.

On a more serious note. The last time your proscriptions were attempted on large scale 50 million people starved to death.  ...

Yes, maybe you should lay off the ‘lite-hearted humor’.

I think you mean ‘prescriptions’, there, and if they were as vague as you say, then there is no way of ascribing the starvation of 50 million or anything else to them.  However, I’d be interested to know what on earth you were thinking about, if anything.  You may be reading from the wrong page of your script book.

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By DonSchneider, December 8, 2011 at 8:32 am Link to this comment

I like the donnachaid “stick” stirring up stupid, was it ? a bit of a relief !  It is
getting a bit trying to have to wade through the posts of the mental masturbators
(heterochromadic,outraged,Imax, elisalouisa,A.christian cyr… )  to find an
intelligent response to a good article. Will the troglodytes please find a common
venue where someone gives a crap about the rantings of school children and leave
truthdig to the rest of us !

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By DonSchneider, December 8, 2011 at 8:07 am Link to this comment

Ah !  Blessed are the ignorant , for they shall see god !

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By DonSchneider, December 8, 2011 at 8:07 am Link to this comment

Ah !  Blessed are the ignorant , for they shall see god !

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By out_of_time, December 8, 2011 at 8:03 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I am an atheist and I can thank the church and all the supposive holy-rollers that pretend to follow the teachings of your lord and savoir in all of its glory.  Thank-you for being you.  I was a catholic raised and schooled 9 year old child (which was 39 yrs ago) who came to the conclusion that the church and most of its divine followers were nothing but a bunch of fakes.  And it just has become more blatant over time,  thank you for freeing me from your clutches and moral deceit.  thank you for showing me that there was no real value to practice what you preach. 

I really do not care what any holy rollers spin to make the church legit in its decision not to allow people in great need with a uplifting message to grace your hypocritical so-called sanctuary.

Here is the simplicity that religion taught me but could never show me:

Treat others the way you wish to be treated
Care for those less fortunate then you
The poor are held in higher regard to god then the greedy rich thoughtless selfish pricks
Do not wait for an opportunity to help others but go forth and you will find many
That to expect goodness from mankind is to have forgiveness within yourself
Share all you have and you will be lifted up to the lord
The more you help those in need the light will shine thru your soul which will bring you more riches spiritually then all the gold in this world
Never turn anyone away a beggar who comes to your doorstep as he could be the rebirth of Jesus in our time

Basically be good to one another help each other to take care of each other and walk the talk

I am an atheist and please do not be totally insane or ignorant by asking me why this could happen

It is all a fairytale that has failed us all,  maybe it was one mans dream and he expressed it and people heard and followed him to see if they could awaken people to the injustices of that time and find a better way of life,  that had more meaning and they were met with much resistance from the greedy rich powerful pricks that had to kill the leader to stem the message,  no media no cell phones no cameras no videos no internet to record and share it all

Does this story sound familiar?

Does history repeat itself?

How do you want your world to look?


Lost we are and lost is how we will stay until we can make all blind men see past the wall (street) trying to block us from raising the curtain on the men behind the curtain


Seems the only hope we may have left is for our fairy godmother to come along and tell us to click our heels and say there is no place like peace,  I am still searching for my ruby slippers.

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By IMax, December 8, 2011 at 7:20 am Link to this comment

Anarcissie, - “There was a lot in what I wrote beside cookies…”

-

I realize that Anarc. It’s just that, well, your prescriptions continue to be so vague I leaned on your cookie test in reply.

The problem with written text is that lite-hearted humor often gets lost.

-

On a more serious note. The last time your proscriptions were attempted on large scale 50 million people starved to death. Contrast that noble, but failed, experiment with India and China and their respective free market reforms over the past two decades. Tens of millions of people have been lifted out of homelessness and poverty.

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By heterochromatic, December 7, 2011 at 10:12 pm Link to this comment

~~~~and the people who write for them can’t help but redefine what they see in
terms of how they see things~~~~


and they’re less than those brave souls who redefine what they see in the way that
they don’t see things?

—-

I like this version

http://youtu.be/sTe05j6H0qg

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By Anarcissie, December 7, 2011 at 9:41 pm Link to this comment

dfabian, December 7 at 6:47 pm:

‘What I find most troubling is the way much of the progressive media, and MSNBC evening programs in particular, have worked to define this as….’

The progressive media, like most other media, are capitalist, established-order media, and the people who write for them can’t help but redefine what they see in terms of how they see things, which is strongly affected by their need to please their audiences, advertisers and supporters (real and imaginary), and keep their jobs.

This is why there was so much blathering about demandsDemands, in the sense used here, are uttered by the lower orders to the ruling class as petitioners; once they have been made, they are subjected to bargaining, whittling, weaseling, reinterpretation and high-binding until eventually they go away, along with those who promoted them.

The core groups who started OWS, and who will persist with it if anyone does, mostly do not believe in the established order and don’t care to confirm its legitimacy.  What they have done is simply point out the facts of wealth, power and social status in contemporary America.  Now people are reacting to their observation, some with admiration, many with indifference and cynicism, some with pepper-spray.  Each chooses his or her fate.

... as far off in the distance we hear the chorus singing, ‘Which side are you on?’

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By gerard, December 7, 2011 at 8:39 pm Link to this comment

Fabian:  See various videos of Occupiers beginning to work on foreclosure problems in New York and elsewhere. Probably this action will expand during the next month under the “home for Christmas” idea.
See Truthout.org, Salon.com and the OccupyWallStreet.org news sites.

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By dfabian, December 7, 2011 at 7:47 pm Link to this comment

What I find most troubling is the way much of the progressive media, and MSNBC evening programs in particular, have worked to define this as a “working middle class” movement, to the exclusion of the post-middle class, and all those who never had a chance into the middle class.  Not everyone can work and, after years of a massive (taxpayer funded) exporting of jobs, there simply aren’t enough jobs for all who need one. In our post-poverty relief nation, this means a whole lot of people who have no incomes. Defining the OWS movement as being of, fora and about “middle class workers” slams the door on millions of post-middle class Americans. Trying to save the middle class without addressing US poverty is like putting fine shingles on the roof of an old house while ignoring the crumbling foundation—you’ll have a nice roof, but that house is going to collapse.

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By IMax, December 7, 2011 at 5:37 pm Link to this comment

ardee-full-of——medication?,

I don’t quite know what to make of you with this creepy stunt.

-

Will someone please tell me who Rico is? What’s the significance of Rico and this ardee creep?

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By ardee, December 7, 2011 at 4:59 pm Link to this comment

A very disturbed individual is this Rico/Imax.

This ,again, is a cut and paste of his message to me from my inbox.:


IMax
Subject: Not now. Not ever.
Date: 2011-11-30 05:15 AM
Recipients: <ardee>
You will never best me. Not now. Not ever! You are simply not smart enough.

By the way: You may wish to change your bio rant.  Nobody, aside from yourself, will believe you to be the brightest bulb in the box.

Rico

Perhaps one might conjecture as to why he sent it to me, an avowed avoider of his tripe, and now why Rico, as several of us suspected him to actually be, would deny sending it. Well, it would be embarrassing of course, but his usual posts are that already.

I only posted this to perhaps persuade others to do as I do and turboscroll past the crap to which he subjects this forum.

Attention seeking loon I fear.

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By Anarcissie, December 7, 2011 at 10:13 am Link to this comment

MissMuch, December 7 at 2:23 am:

I’ve just taken a break from what I’m doing and read a long list of comments. It’s understandable to be negative but I think we’re all clear now on what we believe is wrong. Rather than endless ranting, let’s concentrate on trying to make some positive changes including less in-house bickering, criticising each other etc. That will change NOTHING. This is bright, energetic, creative group of people. So please don’t waste your energy on more negativity. Important new information yes - but guys get out there and be positive.

Sorry to be negative, but this particular discussion, and much of what goes on on Truthdig generally, has been successfully trolled.  It’s unlikely to ‘go anywhere’; its main value is entertainment—people do love to argue—although a little enlightenment may sneak through here and there.  I recommend seeking out other venues of discussion and action where trolls are recognized as provocateurs and saboteurs and positive projects are purposively contemplated and carried out.  This would be according to your values, beliefs and predilections, of course.  Discussions open to the street are going to attract all sorts of people, including those paid to disrupt conversations displeasing to those who pay them, and the consequence is a lot of argumentation and little or no progress or action.

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By Vaco, December 7, 2011 at 9:50 am Link to this comment

@Imax
Oh I am sorry. I did not mean to get in the way of your obviously large ego, how silly of me. Please continue. We are all waiting in anticipation for your next wonderfully insightful messages in this comment section of a website, that will have such a great, lasting impact on the greater world community. I am truly thankful for your gifts of wisdom.

(This trolling thing is kinda fun, no wonder why you do it so much.)

-

Thank you again, Chris Hedges and keep up the amazing work!

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By Anarcissie, December 7, 2011 at 9:19 am Link to this comment

IMax, December 6 at 10:25 am:

Anarcissie,

Put simplistically; your solution is a system which offers ‘free’ cookies.

I was hoping for a few suggestions and solutions which deals with human-beings as, well, remaining human. ...

One of the reasons I think you’re a troll, employed as such or not, is your inability to process new information, as well as an inability to give sources.  This suggests someone whose job or avocation is to identify certain types of messages and then respond to them from a script (actual or mental).  There was a lot in what I wrote beside cookies, but it obviously went past you, or you decided you couldn’t deal with it.

You do, however, bring up the old warhorse of how things must be as they are because of ‘human nature’.  The problem with this theory is that, over time and geographical space, humans have lived in many, many different ways.  There are few constants in anthropology.  There is not much to suggest that contemporary capitalist industrialism, which has been around for only a few centuries, and is highly unstable and dynamic, is not a temporary phenomenon.  Those in control always say ‘This is the way things have ever been, and ever shall be, for it accords with human nature (or divine will),” but we need not take them very seriously.

I know this is all probably well beyond your scope.  I’m posting it for other readers, really, and your question, however rhetorical, provided a useful pretext.  So you have contributed constructively in spite of yourself!

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By IMax, December 7, 2011 at 8:16 am Link to this comment

Vaco,

LOL….You take the time to sign into a Web site so that you can deride me (only me) for visiting a Web site and attempting to hold a discussion with people from around the country on issues and current events?

You wildly assume I haven’t visited several Occupy protests after I made it clear that I have?

Vaco, have you met ardee? You two seem well suited. wink

Have a wonderful day.

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By IMax, December 7, 2011 at 8:07 am Link to this comment

ardee-full-of——-I don’t know what,

You’re now claiming I wrote you directly? Are you insane? You believe I have any inclination to devote my time to thinking about you? - Honestly, ardee, you leave me speechless.

I pray I never meet-up with you in person. You’re scary.

-

Will someone here please clue me in on this Rico?

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By Rachel, December 7, 2011 at 7:53 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Chris Hedges—This article is amazing. I can’t stop reading it—tearing up. After
dropping my son off at preschool today I stopped in at the nearby Catholic church
and reflected on your writing, OWS, our responsibility to others. I’m not religious
(half Jewish/half Irish Catholic by background) I am mystified as to how anyone
who calls themselves a Christian is not part of this movement. How can they turn
away from such a clear message? I’m working on an occupy album and I have a
gospel song, a recording studio I can use for free and a funder to produce the
album. Now I just need the gospel choir! Thank you for galvanizing so many
through your faith, your incredible writing and your willingness to be on the
frontlines.

(In response to the question below, Am I human? Yes, but I’m starting to wonder
about many of the people I know.)

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By Vaco, December 7, 2011 at 7:52 am Link to this comment

@Imax
Wow. Still discussing issues on a comment section of a website? I know it’s big and scary outside but you can do it! Buy some sunscreen and head to your local Occupy and have these discussing there! Arguing on the internet is like arguing with a wall, nothing moves.

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By sallysense, December 7, 2011 at 7:39 am Link to this comment

hiya again imax…

then re-read the statements again…

your unclarity detours the subject at hand…

christ’s path and message…

hence one more time for otherwise agendas…

we can pull from a grab bag a world full of answers…
for those sidetracking matters layered on each bottom line…
whether purposeful or brainwashed or not knowing any better…
they tend to evade that prime issue or frame a trade or re-define!...

it keeps happening these days in a land where corporate advancement…
uses think-tank manufacturing so folks won’t think for themselves…
leading people into patsy molds holding lesser self-awareness…
it feeds ulterior motives when what is needed most is help!...

and also…

you can make all the excuses you want on behalf of or benefitting the 1%...
and while you do it corporate greed just keeps bleeding our country dry…
they do this all the time in government and see how much gets done…
what’s your conscience tell your own self about the bottom line?...
you may enjoy swimming in superficial muck with the big shots…
one big dangerous comfort zone for those afraid of change…
overblown illusion goes nowhere but that’s all they know…
and don’t look for me to join in for more of the same…

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By IMax, December 7, 2011 at 7:33 am Link to this comment

Amon Drool, - “do you really think things have gotten better?’

-

Great point!

-Term limits may rid us of professional politicians.

-Elect those interested in overturning Citizens United.

-Mandate that Presidential elections be public financed ONLY! NO MORE Billion dollar, Wall St. funded campaigns!

-Five year moratorium on direct lobbying after holding Executive and Congressional offices.

-Most importantly, VOTE! Less than 20% of Americans vote in off-year, issues oriented, elections.

Always complaining about Washington, while necessary, does not absolve of us of our own responsibility to self-educate and PARTICIPATE. - How embarrassing is it that less than 40% of self-proclaimed liberals take the time to vote for President?

Change the system. Occupy the places where laws are conceived.

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By radicalfemme, December 7, 2011 at 7:06 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I have a lot of respect for Chris Hedges as a writer.  I have read several of his books and enjoyed them.  But, Christianity has become as morally bankrupt as Wall Street and the 1%.  They are only interested in imposing their brand of Christianity upon a secular country. They have protituted every one of their ideals to become part of the corrupt political system, in order to impose there form of morality upon the rest of us. It has greatly weakened them as a moral entity too. In short, they have become a joke that isn’t going to be redeemed by helping the OWS.  Their moral’s begins and ends with sex and melding in people’s lives.  They ignore all of the corruption in the political party they support in order to impose it.  That is only small part of what’s wrong with Christianity today.

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By katsteevns, December 7, 2011 at 6:37 am Link to this comment

Excellent doublestandards/glasshouses!!

I have said this before to no avail.  No one wants to hear it. It will be our demise.

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By John M, December 7, 2011 at 6:35 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Here are a few background notes that I have posted in relation to Trinity. I have friends at the place. I have been a colleague in the Diocese for years. I know that a good number of colleagues, Bishop’s, Priests and lay people are disgusted with their internal spin, their PR campaign and their inaction. This is not new with TWS. Anyone in the know can look back to how they attempted in very way to shit down rescue and relief at St. Paul’s and finally when they could fired the very people who made it happen. Cynically they wrote a book about their own heroism in the effort they tried to stop. FDNY and innumerable clergy are aware of this. This is now more of the same.

2 blog posts that I have written that have helped Trinity sharpen their PR response that they have just revamped on their new OWS section on their website. Take note when you go to their page that there is a forum about veterans and foreclosures that just popped up since Monday. The cynicism is beyond belief.

Someone please alert me when they comment on the many people beaten in front of their property, in particular one clutching the gates of the church as he was struck. Not one keystroke dedicated to this point. I do not know of one colleague who would not go ballistic if this happened against their gets in a movement they “support”. Lets not be naive here, churches with huge money have choices to make and we are seeing this bastion of liberalism display its impotence in all things but self protection.

http://apriestspreoccupation.wordpress.com/2011/10/26/tipping-the-sacred-cows/

http://apriestspreoccupation.wordpress.com/2011/11/21/an-open-letter-to-trinity-wall-street-posted-on-their-website/

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By Amon Drool, December 7, 2011 at 5:55 am Link to this comment

IMax (12/6 @ 9:46pm): “Desire a truly revolutionary
idea and plan of action? Occupy those places all over
the nation which less than 40% of liberal Americans
take the time to go. Voting booths. Occupy the land
of laws by Occupying the U. S. Congress.”

well, didn’t americans occupy voting booths in 2008? 
didn’t they vote in a Democratic executive and
legislature?  what good did it do?  do you really
think things have gotten better? 

does our representative democracy really represent
the will of the people?  think about health care
legislation in 2009.  the Dems in the House had the
votes to pass a health care bill with a public
option.  but they were told passing a bill with a
public option would be futile because they needed a
super majority of 60 votes in the Senate.  think
about the Senate…the populace of wyoming has the
same amount of power as the populace of california. 
democracies supposedly operate on ‘one man, one
vote’, but in the US it takes 70 californians to
equalize the power of just one wyoming voter.  when
our constitution instituted the Senate as part of our
national legislature, it gave the small states too
much power over democratic will.  a minority of small
states can block legislation that a majority of the
people want.

now, i’m all for needed change coming peacefully
through the ballot box.  but i’m afraid that under
our current ‘democratic’ design, occupying a voting
booth can hardly be a “truly revolutionary idea and
plan of action.”

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By ardee, December 7, 2011 at 5:53 am Link to this comment

Methinks this loser doth overexpose himself.

I recently received the following message :

IMax
Subject: Not now. Not ever.
Date: 2011-11-30 05:15 AM
Recipients: <ardee>
You will never best me. Not now. Not ever! You are simply not smart enough.

By the way: You may wish to change your bio rant.  Nobody, aside from yourself, will believe you to be the brightest bulb in the box.

Rico

Now, as many of you are aware I have made a point of noting that I do not respond to the crap this moron abuses us with here. I turboscroll past his “offerings” unfailingly. Thus his childish rant is even more ridiculous than it appears at first blush.

That he “forgot” to change his signature, by the by, gives away the game, again illustrating his serious lack of brain cells.

As to the reference about bright bulbs, well, he is as wrong about that misquote as he is about everything else. Airline pilot, yeah sure!

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By IMax, December 7, 2011 at 5:34 am Link to this comment

sallysense - “trinity’s statements before that letter was written… re-read them carefully… for what they do and don’t say…”

-

I’m sorry, Sally, I’m unclear of the point you’re making.

Are you speaking of how the Pastors of Trinity never make it clear that Mr. Hedges wrote this piece with a mind toward forcing them to relinquish all control of church spaces to people known to break things and start fires? - I’m not talking about the good people who attend these protests.

I assume you’ve read this article. Does Hedges make it clear that while writing this piece he had an eye toward controlling church real estate for use by occupywallstreet.org?

Thank you for the brief 300 year history on Trinity. I’m not sure how it’s germane to this today’s issues but it was interesting.

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By MissMuch, December 7, 2011 at 3:23 am Link to this comment

I’ve just taken a break from what I’m doing and read a long list of comments. It’s understandable to be negative but I think we’re all clear now on what we believe is wrong. Rather than endless ranting, let’s concentrate on trying to make some positive changes including less in-house bickering, criticising each other etc. That will change NOTHING. This is bright, energetic, creative group of people. So please don’t waste your energy on more negativity. Important new information yes - but guys get out there and be positive.

Report this

By CanDoJack, December 7, 2011 at 3:17 am Link to this comment

Termites do not wait for ages to begin dismantling a
structure. Asking after the destruction how long the
termites had been eating away at the structure does
not restore the structure.

Our revolutionary termites have been eating away at
the US for a surprisingly long time. Long into to
turn what would have been creative lives into old
and rotten couch potatoes. Ignorant, fat,
gluttonous, smug, worthless couch potatoes. Not by
accident. That TV was locked and loaded on
inception. The content as well as the commercials
had a purpose besides making mountebanks more money.

The purpose was to condition the couch potato to
become what was desired: a boob who did not know
where the TV ended and his/her daydreams began for a
fairy tale world that made the couch potato a
mushroom fed manure and kept in the dark.

Way back when the bushats were getting their
products made by Third Reich concentration camp
labor and before I was born, a General named Smedley
Butler said that he had been approached by several
of the biggest corpulentrations in the country with
an offer of an immense amount of money to contract a
military force to overthrow FDR’s government.

Many would say the failed effort did not deter those
who wished a more fascist government. It is pretty
obvious that fifty years later the conditioning has
dulled the senses of many but, those in the streets
protesting know that a revolution has been underway
a long while. Those whose houses have been
foreclosed know it as well. Those who have been
jailed without charges for a long while know it too.

So, though the revolution has not been armed, it has
been painful for millions of American citizens, say
about 99% who do not have the money to buy bullets
and many of whom believe that violence begets
violence.

What Chris Hedges did not say about churches
sometimes doing a valuable service is that those
services were not necessarily carried out on behalf
of a heavenly UFO alien’s fiats.

Neither did he say that often those bearing the
crosses are the very ones who are the objects of the
services who resemble Jesus in that they are the
victims as well as their own saviours.

Even if all the money stolen from that 99% were
given back, it would not erase the pain and the
suffering that at least one of the seven deadly
sins, greed, have caused. The termites are almost
successful. The structure may well be inhabitable by
and by but it will take a lot of sedulous effort and
serious vigilance.

And some earnest praying can’t hurt.

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By glider, December 7, 2011 at 12:22 am Link to this comment

Chris has been do everything correctly with such force, until this article.  Overall, the Church is clearly part of the problem rather than part of the solution.  Sure, if you can convince anyone who owns a piece of well located land to grant OWS its usage that would be a positive.  But, the Church is no more likely to grant that than any other establishment organization.  More likely the Pastor/Priest will be too concerned about the reaction of his funders than with this inconvenient morally righteous position.  I do agree with Chris in that their response will confirm their irrelevance once again.  Let them go back to their dutiful blessing the corporate state war effort sacrifices and returning dead soldiers, and recognize them for what they have become.

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By sallysense, December 6, 2011 at 11:51 pm Link to this comment

hiya imax…

and yet still in actuality… what was really done ?...

had already been aware of trinity’s statements before that letter was written… re-read them carefully… for what they do and don’t say… considering a house of worship professing dedication to christ’s path and message…

and include the reading of the following… for what it says…

“The Trinity Real Estate Story”... by Trinity Church…

“Trinity Church and real estate go together in many people’s minds, with good reason. As one of the largest landholders in Manhattan, the revenue from Trinity’s real-estate holdings makes the parish’s mission and work - in New York and throughout the world - possible.

In 1705, Queen Anne of England granted the “Church Farm” to Trinity - 215 acres of what was then, and would remain for many years, farmland north of the city center. The parish had only been established by charter and a much smaller land grant from King William III seven years earlier, in 1697. Queen Anne’s generous gift allowed Trinity to begin leasing lots and offer its own land grants - the first of which was given to King’s College, later known as Columbia University. Today, Trinity owns 15 acres - or 8 per cent - of the original 215 land grant acres.

Trinity continued offering land grants to other institutions, including new churches and chapels. From 1784 - 1814, Trinity gave away 143 lots to other churches. Trinity owned or leased land for commercial and residential buildings throughout the 19th century. When the Great Depression hit in 1929, Trinity’s buildings were leased long-term to developers. These buildings were configured exclusively for commercial use, mainly to accommodate printers who wanted to be close to their financial customers on Wall Street.

Trinity began converting its manufacturing spaces to premium office space in 1983, in an area that became known as Hudson Square. This district, in which Trinity Real Estate holds six million square feet in 18 buildings, is a bustling center of business, new residential projects, galleries, shops and restaurants. It’s hard to believe that 300 years ago this same busy downtown area was quiet farmland on the northern edge of the city.”

and then re-read your own previous response to me… for what yours does and doesn’t say…

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By heterochromatic, December 6, 2011 at 11:40 pm Link to this comment

litlpeep—-I tend to doubt that the crazy German guy knew anything about Trinity
Church and perhaps you might do well not to apply your o’erbroad generalization
to this particular church…maybe learn a little about it before talking trash.

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By litlpeep, December 6, 2011 at 11:23 pm Link to this comment

The church is precisely that against which Jesus preached—and against which he taught his disciples to fight.

FRIEDRICH NIETZSCHE, unpublished fragment, Nov. 1887

Two great European narcotics, alcohol and Christianity.
—Friedrich Nietzsche, The Twilight of the Idols “Things the Germans Lack” (1888),

So long as the priest, that professional negator, slanderer and poisoner of life, is regarded as a superior type of human being, there cannot be any answer to the question: What is Truth?
—Friedrich Nietzsche, The Antichrist

Of course, we don’t need Nietzsche or anyone else to point out to us that the churches are devoted to building greater and ever greater tombs for their “once, perhaps, living spirits” that now are so dead the children will no longer go along with the game of pretending those spirits live.

Long live these brave children.

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By IMax, December 6, 2011 at 10:52 pm Link to this comment

Your Outrage,

I have argued nothing even remotely related to what you attribute to me. Is it intentional? I need to know.

This needs to be addressed before I can continue with you. I refuse to argue over positions I’ve never taken.

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By heterochromatic, December 6, 2011 at 10:49 pm Link to this comment

that’s for the link, Miss Much….is was interesting reading. LaRue has interesting
things to say in a sort of very imprecise and half-true way.

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By IMax, December 6, 2011 at 10:46 pm Link to this comment

gerard, - “What really seems to worry you is that OWS may be able to succeed using nonviolence.”

-

Absolutely incorrect. We’ve yet to see a non-violent OWS. That remains my very point. I push repeatedly for a solid, productive, doable and possibly historic non-violent “Occupy” movement with real chances to thrive and grow. Grow powerful enough to effect real and lasting change.

“Ask Americans if they wish for a nonviolent style of “revolution” and probably a large majority will give the idea a resounding”
NO!

You are confusing a great sense of insecurity in bad financial times with your desire for true revolutionary changes to the American system and culture. You’ve written almost those very words, nearly verbatim, countless times. Revolution IS your intention.

Americans want affordable healthcare for their children and a sense of security while remaining very much “American”. You wish that were not so but, it’s true. America is not clamoring for revolution. You, alongside a small but passionate minority, are. And you can no longer deny your own support for a gather which includes a significant number of people willing to use brute force to achieve this revolution.

Let us at least discuss these matters in realistic terms. 70,000 is nothing like a movement. Occupy demonstrations maintains media attention by its brute force, in-your-face, confrontational tactics. You know this to be true.

Want less spent on the military side of the ledger? Desire a truly revolutionary idea and plan of action?  Occupy those places all over the nation which less than 40% of liberal Americans take the time to go. Voting booths.

Occupy the land of laws by Occupying the U.S. Congress.

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By MissMuch, December 6, 2011 at 10:41 pm Link to this comment

UN Envoy: U.S. Isn’t Protecting Occupy Protesters’ Rights

http://www.huffingtonpost.com - Saturday 3rd December 2011

WASHINGTON—The United Nations envoy for freedom of expression is drafting an official communication to the U.S. government demanding to know why federal officials are not protecting the rights of Occupy demonstrators whose protests are being disbanded—sometimes violently—by local authorities

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By katsteevns, December 6, 2011 at 9:24 pm Link to this comment

@ padraigin6

Can you blame them?
———————————————————-

On another note, When Christ overturned the tables of the money changers, was he not being violent?

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By CanDoJack, December 6, 2011 at 9:15 pm Link to this comment

Mr. Hedges, I think this is your finest work. Well
conceived, well written, aptly delivered.

Gerard, I think you must agree with me. I have never
seen you enter so many comments.

All of your comments are, in keeping with the
article, APTly delivered.

Thank you.

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Outraged's avatar

By Outraged, December 6, 2011 at 9:02 pm Link to this comment

Re: IMax

Your comment: “Your Outrage, I think, is getting in
the way.”

You can do better than that can’t you…... inane. lol

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