Gabriel,

I’m not Nostradamus so I can’t predict the future but I do agree that the evidence all points to a collapse of our - this time global - civilization and it’s probable that that this recession or rather depression (since many of the 99% are experiencing just that - a depression) is not going to have a happy ending. I also think that capitalism as it is now practiced has gone beyond its use-by date.

I don’t know what the answer might be, if there is one, but Americans can begin by ditching their corporately controlled Dem/Rep apparatus and the apology for a mainstream media with which they are saddled and by breaking up the corporations into manageable units that benefit society, not rip them off.

Occupy Wall Street is one arm of an attack on the apparatus, David Cyr’s voting for the Greens or such like is another, more independent media yet another. There are more and they should not be mutually exclusive attacks.

re: kulu and similar thinkers

You’re still stuck in Obama Republican and Democrat mode. That’s old news.
Get off the pot and Wake Up!

ALL of them are in big trouble and getting in deeper. Once the economy crashes, as it usually does, it will crash with a big bang. A bang such as never seen before. This time it will take the rest of this planet it with it.

Occupy Wall St is the start of ideas to survive what’s coming. It’s only step one of a 3 step process.
Get it?

If you don’t, then you have some major learning to do and to catch up on.

JDmysticDJ and others,

Lets see…

A visitor from outer space arrives in the US without a clue as to Obama’s political values and agenda. He listens to all his speeches (apart from his recent blatant uncompromising support of Israel) and must judge from those speeches alone whether the man is a Republican or not. The alien might then reasonably assume that Obama is not a Republican. Right?

Now lets assume the visitor hears none of those speeches and must judge Obama only on his actions, who he appoints to his administration and who his campaign donors might be. Would this alien not then conclude that Obama must be a Republican? Well if he were an intelligent alien then surely that would be his conclusion.

The conclusions for Bill Clinton’s actions while president would surely be the same.

The fact is that the Democrats have been given decades to reverse the destructive course America has set itself in both domestic and foreign affairs but have instead followed the same path as its Republican friends have done.

As to the OWS movement, someone commented that it was or should be non-political. I agree in that it should not embrace either the Democrats or Republicans. But that is not the same thing as being non-political. I believe they have to be political but see both the established parties as their enemy, not as being any sort of means to an end.

QUOTE, of an avatar being a painting in many (D)evious shades of blue:

“The New York Times reported last week that 80% of Wall Street Political Campaign funding is now going to Republicans. Wall Street is angry with Obama, and Obama has given Wall Street plenty of reason to be angry.”
___________________

Theater!

Don’t worry about Obama. After all he’s done to reward Wall St. criminals for crimes Democrats consider too well done to be prosecuted he’s set for life, having most corruptly earned the luxurious retirement he will enjoy.

What a brilliant voting strategy (D) “progressives” have.

To “oppose” corporate control the brilliant “progressive” voters resolutely robo-vote for the corporate party’s corporate owned Democrats.

It’s the solidarity of conservative retrogrades and depraved liberals voting together in the corporate (R) & (D) party that has provided 99% popular vote mandates for corporate persons to decide what will be done to natural persons and Nature.

The Democrat voters can only pretend to support the Occupy movement, because the Democrat voters have regularly voted for every evil thing that the Occupy movement is protesting against.

Intelligent voters consider the evil that Democrats get done working together with their corporate party partner Republicans, and the good they don’t get done to be far more useful voter information than the disingenuous praise and dissembling promises of the corporate party’s Democrats.

People who actually oppose the corporate-state that “progressives” protect don’t vote for any of the corporate party’s candidates — no Republicans and no Democrats.

America could have possibly had a democracy, but there were to many Democrats.

http://www.chenangogreens.org

All these numbers boggle the minds of humanitarians, but the number of “Folks Murdered” continues to increase, thanks to right-wing militarist lunatics of all stripes and varieties

Better just to forget the whole thing. Thats always been the way that Leftists deal with the issue

Millions were killed in Leftist gulags and slave labor camps. The Left denies it ever happened or blames it on somebody else. Thats why they will never learn from those terrible mistakes. Thats why they are a threat to our civics as well as to our lives, no matter what else they think they are crusading for.

JDmysticDJ

I get what you say as well
What I’m trying to tell you and everyone that there’s a bigger game here. Europeans decimated the Native Americans.

Native Americans decimated the Men of Rebound / the Giants of old. Blue eyed, red haired giants on North America and Black giants on South America.

Giants decimated the Ones who lived for a long time = 10,000 to 26,000 yrs. The Original Men and Women on Earth.

—
The point is, Humanity is on the brink of getting decimated. Hence 1% against the 99%. Now, which side will win?
That is the question that remains unanswered and yet to resolve it’s self.

So ...
Will Humanity rise up above being fools for the ruling upper class and learn their true nature ... or roll over and die off?
The Universe is watching.

Gabriel

I omitted but I did not miss, there is a distinction to be made. I’m aware and have been aware but thanks for the addition. We could also discuss the colonization of Chinese ports by the U.S. and Europe, the opium trade (The opium poppy is not indigenous to China, it was imported into China by Europeans,) The Boxer Rebellion and much, much, more. Something is always “missed” (omitted) in these comments, one could write volumes about the atrocities, injustices, and on and on, and so it goes…

The picture you paint of Goldman Sach’s political campaign contributions is many shades of wrong. I honestly don’t think you are being intentionally dishonest. I honestly think you are uninformed and stupid, or fanatically moronic, if you will.

OpenSecrets.org reports 2012 campaign contributions from Goldman Sachs as such.

Republicans $377,599

Democrats $227,835

Mitt Romney $290,750

Barack Obama $44,750

Knowledgeable people know that big money contributors prefer Republicans but always donate to the Party that has the best chance of winning; hedging their bets financed from Hedge Fund Proceeds so to speak. Wall Street money shifted to Republicans in 2009 and if I’m not mistaken, The New York Times reported last week that 80% of Wall Street Political Campaign funding is now going to Republicans. Wall Street is angry with Obama, and Obama has given Wall Street plenty of reason to be angry.

Obama: I Didn’t Run for Office to Help ‘Fat Cat Bankers.’

“I did not run for office to be helping out a bunch of fat cat bankers on Wall Street,” Obama tells 60 Minutes’ Steve Kroft. “What’s really frustrating me right now is that you’ve got these same banks who benefited from taxpayer assistance who are fighting tooth and nail with their lobbyists ...up on Capitol Hill, fighting against financial regulatory control.”

Obama voices his frustration because he is unable to tolerate what he perceives to be an injustice, and an injustice it is. It is not Justice and Justice is what he wants.

re: JDmysticDJ

You missed one major fact. The fact that European powers came to Americas and decimated the Indigenous population in the Millions.

It is estimated that Europeans directly and indirectly murdered over 250 Million Sovereigns and as high as 500 Million Sovereign Men Women and Children over the years.

The ruling class families who ordered and signed off in this genocide are the ones who will pay, in many ways.

“There’s nothing so relentless as “progressive” efforts to co-opt movements into service of the (D) faction of the corporate party are.”  A cherry picked list follows!

Yes, so relentless the the above comment and its list is intended to ignore the Republicans, I Wonder why?

Always opportunists will want to grab the helm of a cause, again I say it is not only all or any one group of people, the diversity of people supporting Occupy Wall Street is a whole new flavor for now. Why should it not be considered or allowed to be called progressive in nature? So lets call it populist instead!

Ruthless relentless opportunism is what folks protesting on Occupy Wall Street seem to be about, this includes a protest of stale DC politicos as usual, not just Democrats or Republicans, I suspect people are tired of the bought and sold DC in general.

Get the money out of politics!

One person, one dollar, one vote!

QUOTE, of an avatar being a painting in many (D)evious shades of blue:

“Democrats are not co-opting anything… If however, Occupy Wall Street proves to be divisive and weakens unified opposition to Wall Street and their Republican sycophants, Occupy Wall Street will end up as a counter productive detriment to their own objectives”
___________________

There’s nothing so relentless as “progressive” efforts to co-opt movements into service of the (D) faction of the corporate party are.

Obama 2012 has (in just getting started with its disinformation campaign) already spent $80,235,455, and has recently raised $48,662,185. Obama 2012 has accumulated nearly 3 times the money owning him as the total of all the money backing the 11 Republican faction contenders for the corporate party’s installation combined (Obama shares = $128,897,640 and the total shares in all the 2012 contender (R)s still standing and those that failed = $48,060,769)

So far, the largest of the many large individual shareholders in Obama 2012 are:

Comcast Corp.
— largest cable and home internet service provider; dedicated enemy of net neutrality

Exelon Corp.
— largest owner/operator of nuclear plants; a “clean-coal” advocate that closets its support of fracking shale for gas behind a pleasant renewable energy facade

Goldman Sachs
— global crime syndicate; owner/operator of the United States treasury and American economic policy

Open Secrets (2012 POTUS candidate purchasing info):
http://www.opensecrets.org/pres12/summary.php

http://www.chenangogreens.org

O[B]zerk Michael

Occupy Wall Street’s manifesto, if such a thing exists, states opposition to both Political Parties. The fact that Democrats have deemed Occupy Wall Street’s complaints understandable and of merit does not at all validate your unfounded, fanatical anti-Left, paranoid conspiracy theories.

Democrats are not co-opting anything; they are only reaffirming their philosophy and stating their agreement with Occupy Wall Street’s complaints as they pertain to Wall Street abuses.

If Occupy Wall Street protestors serve to point out the gross economic disparities and the unjust practices of Wall Street, while at the same time illustrating the dichotomy between Democrats and Republicans, in spite of themselves, it will be the best of both worlds from my perspective. If however, Occupy Wall Street proves to be divisive and weakens unified opposition to Wall Street and their Republican sycophants, Occupy Wall Street will end up as a counter productive detriment to their own objectives, to themselves, to the people of this nation, and, in the final analysis, to the peoples of the world.

JDmysticDJ—In regard to the numbers of people killed by Communists or others in authority, it all depends on who’s doing the killing.  Deaths due to famine are part of the body count in China, Cambodia and the Soviet Union, but are not counted in India or Ireland, where they were substantially the result of the policies and actions of the liberal British government.  In other words, Communism bad, capitalism and imperialism good.

I find it difficult to believe that AlfromMaine’s post is anything but an ineffective satirical spoof.  Setting aside the retro-lunacy of his assertions; the grammatical errors in his post, if not intentional, show a very limited intellect.

Incidentally, it was famine, one of over a thousand that have racked China over the eons that resulted in the deaths of millions of Chinese after the Revolution, not Mao. I suppose that Mao being the leader of forces that warred against the invading Japanese and Chaing Kai Shek’s murderous gangsters, and being the leader during time of famine “Murdered many folks”, but the contention that Mao murdered more folks than Hitler of [sic] Stalin is nothing but the blathering of idiots [sic] right-wing propagandists. Of the over 60,000,000 “Folks Murdered” in the Second World War China accounted for 10,000,000 to 20,000,000.

Estimates vary regarding the deaths from famine during the “Great Leap Forward” but it is generally agreed that the famine that occurred during the “Great Leap Forward” resulted in more deaths than any famine in history. 5% of the Chinese population perished from hunger during the “Great Leap Forward,” while during the “Irish Potato Famine” approximately 12% of the Irish population perished from hunger.

According to estimates, communists in China “Murdered” 1,000,000 to 3,000,000 “Folks” during the Great Leap Forward. It’s also been estimated that 55,000,000 “Folks were murdered” during the “Cold War.”

All these numbers boggle the minds of humanitarians, but the number of “Folks Murdered” continues to increase, thanks to right-wing militarist lunatics of all stripes and varieties.

Occupy Wall Street is popping up all across the country. Called a Mob, anti American and this is not the way we do things in America by the Republicans. 

The Democrats are embracing Occupy Wall Street only because they support mobs,... are anti American and this is the way democracy should not work?  Many people who are Democrats have not been overly thrilled with the Democrat party, Obama and their deaf ears. (my opinion) 

But this is not about the Democrats or Republicans, left or right, this is a about fairness and the people, the poor the middle class, ... this is a social movement, not a political one. (grasp it if you can).

It seems some people cannot understand this. Especially conservatives who seem to have a propensity to not have a capability to think for themselves. it is like enlightenment scares the crap out of them. Conservatives are used to being enlightened by the likes of Limbaugh’s, the Becks, possibly their evangelical church’s? Look at the sorry Republican Ticket running for president, it seems a prank on the nation and in the face of Occupy Wall Street and all people who see Republicans candidates as cronies for money. 

I suspect the Occupy Wall Street monument seems to be focusing on some issues, which where taboo before and are scaring the hell out of the bought and sold for Republicans and some of the blue balled Democrats.  Republicans refuse to discuss the OCW issue and the Democrats are being forced to discuss them.  This may be the slight differences between the parties I guess?

From what I understand, segments of OCW are going to start naming names of those one percents and what they have been supporting and manipulating. This aught to be good! Calling the ass holes out of their holes.

Most of the media is still the mass media, they do not get it either, but it does not seem to matter, this may have legs under it.

  Occupy Wall Street is about the many inequities in our society and slovenly greed perpetuated by Wall Street… This is about the self appointed opportunists and manipulators, those hidden behind the curtain. I suspect we have only seen the tip of the iceberg, but the water is getting a bit hot!

Get the Money Out!

One person, one dollar, one vote!

Anarcissie said: “If the Occupation is seduced and subverted and co-opted by the Democratic Party…”

If?

The DCCC is already including the theme of the Occupation in their fundraising. Such rapid and total trust! Now the Democratic Party is officially behind the Occupation. You must be stunned. You thought the Occupation would be an embarrassment and a thorny problem for Obama and Democrats. I said it would help them. One of us knows the score and the other one has stars in his eyes.

Such rapid and complete support didnt materialize from the Republican Committee towards the Tea Party. They were genuinely and obviously scared of us for a few months. Not so the Occupation. The relationship was anticipated from the start and now its consummated with the DCCC petition.

Anarcissie, will you sign the petition to stand behind the Occupation? And let the Republicans know how mad you are? And maybe send a little money to the DCCC? I dont have the original email but here is a copy:
ttp://www.nationalreview.com/corner/279640/democratic-party-going-all-occupy-wall-street-jonah-goldberg

One question ought to arise in your mind now, namely, was this embrace planned by the Organizers of the Occupation all along? Of course the college kids werent told about this part. But the rapidity and completeness of this embrace is rather suspicious, dont you think? I do.

You have been manipulated and already you are being used for fundraising. Used to boost the Democratic Party. Used to give Obama a nice bump in the polls when the time is right.

Since the narrative is already written that if anything goes wrong at the Occupation, it will be because of outside forces(read ‘rich’and ‘Republican’), so the DCCC letter takes advantage of the narrative(which you propagate btw) and positions the Democrats to take full advange of any catastrophe as well as any success.

It win/win. Its brilliant. Its not like i didnt try to warn you. I feel sorry for the Occupation. They were poor Pawns from the start.

AlfromMaine, October 10 at 3:23 pm:

‘Those idiots protesters on Wall Street exist on fantasy and are completely clueless.  You hear them say they want to get rid of capitalism but when asked what to replace it with they don’t have an answer. ...’

I realize this is probably a troll or an automated posting, but here goes anyway.

Many, maybe most, of the OWS protesters do not want to get rid of capitalism.  Otherwise they would not carry signs like ‘Restore the Glass-Steagall act.’  There is no point in regulating private banks if you’re going to take them over or replace them with something else.

Those who do want to get rid of capitalism, probably a substantial minority, do have an answer to your question.  It’s almost always ‘socialism’—the ownership and control of the means of production by the workers or the public, rather than by an elite.  Any functioning cooperative, and their are millions, is an example of successful socialism, if you need an example.

I hope we don’t get too many of these, or if we do, someone else will take over the job of periodically grinding the crank.

re: OzarkMichael

“hmm .. why would yo be stupid enough to invite ppl into your email account?
are you inviting it to be hacked?”

According to Law, you just made an offer for anyone to get in if they can. You just made a challenge to anyone who want’s to see your content.

“now that’s really smart
i’m sure his info has been added to every database on the planet. ...”

re: AlfromMaine

Bull! This is not about your way of thinking and doing things, left or right, up or down.

This is about Everyone being Equal learning from each other, being Sovereign and exercising their Rights as “We the People”. Actually much more.

This is about discarding any and all governing systems, and Everyone having a say in their future. Then taking the best ideas and using these best ideas.

They use pure Democracy and more so Freedom that everyone is born with.

Unless you include ALL the conversations from there you are not being true.

Your “As an American and patriot ...” is flawed.
Americans = Native Americans, anyone else is an Immigrant to this land ... no matter how many generations you think you have here.
patriot = pat riot = patsy for a riot
pat = pa, as in father, the original. If your genealogy is anything other then Native American you are not “pa” anything on this land.
And it’s missing “Ma”, the mother.
= You should choose your words more carefully.

If you’re not a Native American or don’t have a specific treaty with ‘em then maybe it’s You who should move back to where your family came from.

Get the drift?

Now, you want to come on here and learn, or bitch and complain?

Storming the Bastille had something to do with letting the people eat cake and not have it too!

Well I guess guarding the wall streets sweet manipulations and opportunism is better than operating the Guillotine to someone who stands as a crony under the trickling one percent and does nothing but criticizes everything left of the KKK.

Republican hubris:

‘You lefties are after my 1 percent and you will have to get it from my opportunistic prying hands.’

‘Yeah, I want to vote for what I want, I sure as hell do not want you to vote.’

‘You poor mob people need to take you tents and go back to where you came from.!

‘So the wind destroyed your states, tuff pucky, we need the money for the wars and to make sure Obama don’t win in 2012’.

‘We need to dump those horrble unions and that terrble minimum wage thing so American workers can compete with China and India.’

‘Corporations are people too, yes they are my friend.’

‘People on the bottom make too much money and don’t pay enough taxes.’

‘Lower the taxes for the job creators so they can trickle down like they always do.’

This seems to be what the Republicans stand for, I know I missed some, I as a pom pom waving cicada lefty can think and speak for all Republicans like special people on the right speak for all lefties!

I think most of the Occupiers are aware of this.  And beyond that, I think people in general across the political spectrum are really, really fed up.  It’s not a good time to be standing on guard at the Bastille.

better to die standing guard at the Bastille than to live operating the Guillotine.

That sums up our difference

re: ITW

Let me explain it to you in 5 yr old terms:

We were done at the time of original article. Yet You persist to bring it up ... therefore you continue the attacks. Until such time as you stop this is not over.
Until you stop the manipulation, lies, rhetoric and other shill activities you will keep on getting responses from We the People.

I’m sure TD staff are clearly aware of this.

Gabriel:

We are done. I know you have troubles with that concept, but that’s your problem, not mine.

I don’t want the 99% to STFU, just you with your threats, both veiled and otherwise, and your bizarre pipe dream nightmares.

I cannot make you STFU, and clearly you have no self-governor on your actions or words. I will merely have to wait for the TD management to be done with you.

JDmysticDJ, October 10 at 8:38 am:

‘President Obama, Nancy Pelosi, Paul Krugman, left-wing politicians, left-wing spokespeople, left wing pundits and commentators from the radical-left to the moderate-left have all stated before a national audience that the complaints voiced by Occupy Wall Street are justified and have merit, while Eric Cantor, most vocal spokesperson for the “(R)”, wants to crack down on the “Mob,” and the leading contender of the (R) states….’

Soft cop, hard cop.

If the Occupation is suppressed by force, at least it will leave the world with its honor.  At least they’ll have the myth to carry into future battles.

If the Occupation is seduced and subverted and co-opted by the Democratic Party and its crowd of bloviators and manipulators and thugs, they’ll have nothing but defeat and despair, while the Democrats will continue to serve the rich without missing a beat.

I think most of the Occupiers are aware of this.  And beyond that, I think people in general across the political spectrum are really, really fed up.  It’s not a good time to be standing on guard at the Bastille.

re: ITW

Oh my ... now we find out what this is really all about.
The answer to your threat of “STFU” is: NO , Never , not a change , not in your wildest dreams do I take demands from you or ever will. Your band of “satisfaction of others” = Capitalist Conservatives doesn’t count .. as they are part the problem in this global mess. The only thing that matters is a Court of Law, Common Law.

As much as you would love it, you’re NOT going to shut me up or anyone else.

I and We The People, the 99%, will keep on exposing you and everyone tied to capitalism, communism and rest of systems devised by greed, and will keep on providing solutions against you. We will provide the truth, whatever it may be.

If you manage to kick anyone off TD there are ways put you and/or your buddies in Court, expose you and all your info, splatter your pictures and info to everyone Lawfully.
Mainly a Notice of Understanding and Intent: http://loveforlife.com.au/content/08/09/01/notice-understanding-and-intent-and-claim-right

This can be done by anyone to anyone who are the problem. It doesn’t matter if you are a bum, or the president, or a king or queen, or anyone in between.

Unless I see one of these from you in my hands with proper seals on it you’re SOL.

BTW: what i put on here is only the minor start of info that We the People are sitting on. There are full data centers of info/truth on just about every shill out there. Everything you and your family do on the internet, banking, credit cards, deeds, licenses, business, commerce, travel, phone conversations, CCTV video, etc. is all nicely and clearly recorded. And that’s a fact. LOL

Because of your online activities and others you don’t know if anyone is specifically keeping tabs on you, recording you, watching you or whatever. That’s the nature of your Capitalist Totalitarian system. That is what you’re defending.

Remember this: We have all the ways and the time in the world to keep exposing shills. This is only the begging .. just wait till more and more juicy parts come out. Are your records in there somewhere?

Enjoy

QUOTE, of an avatar being a painting in many (D)evious shades of blue:

“Defeating the likes of Cantor, Cain, Romney, et al will require a unified effort at the polls, but some on the Left are bound and determined to destroy that necessary unity.”
________________

Actually, everyone in the Left is “bound and determined to destroy that necessary unity” that the corporate party’s Republicans and Democrats require to protect all their neoliberal policies, which the Occupy movement rose up against.

The disingenuous liberal answer, to their Democrat POTUS led Democrat majority Congress having not done any of the good they could have when they could have, is to get more Democrats elected to again not do the good they could when they can.

It’s their remarkable ability to co-opt whatever rises up from the Left to make every evil more sustainable that makes liberal Democrats the greater evil.

http://www.chenangogreens.org

President Obama, Nancy Pelosi, Paul Krugman, left-wing politicians, left-wing spokespeople, left wing pundits and commentators from the radical-left to the moderate-left have all stated before a national audience that the complaints voiced by Occupy Wall Street are justified and have merit, while Eric Cantor, most vocal spokesperson for the “(R)”, wants to crack down on the “Mob,” and the leading contender of the (R) states,

“…the protesters [are] ‘jealous’ Americans who ‘play the victim card’ and want to ‘take somebody else’s’ Cadillac.”

“‘Don’t blame Wall Street, don’t blame the big banks, if you don’t have a job and you’re not rich, blame yourself!’ Cain said. ‘It is not a person’s fault because they succeeded, it is a person’s fault if they failed. And so this is why I don’t understand these demonstrations and what is it that they’re looking for.’”

At a campaign stop in Florida Tuesday, Mitt Romney another leading “(R)” said,

“… the demonstrations were “dangerous” and “class warfare.”

Does anyone see the dichotomy here? Clearly some do not see a dichotomy and myopically claim that “(D)” and “(R)” are one and the same.

Defeating the likes of Cantor, Cain, Romney, et al will require a unified effort at the polls, but some on the Left are bound and determined to destroy that necessary unity.

Speaking truth to power arouses the ire of some, as does speaking truth to morons. I’ll proffer that moronic thinking is not so much the result of genetics, as it is the result of pathological thinking.

Gabriel:
You threatened me, you lied about it, you challenged me to prove it.

I did, to the satisfaction of others.

We are done.

Now you can STFU because you have nothing to say or contribute other than wild, crazy conspiracy fantasies that make Star Trek and LOTR look tame.

Thank you ITW .. for showing Everyone here just how manipulative you and many others taught by the capitalist system really are.

Everyone can clearly read it at: http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/power_of_the_big_idea_20110728/

You should really learn the difference between a “warning” and a “threat”.
I’ve spent many decades in study and practice of Law. Anytime that you like to take this into court, in front of a jury and to be recorded on video with sound and shown on internet, I’m game. Actually I challenge you.

Your own system, that you so eloquently support, will most likely be the one who will teach you just how much it cares about you and your family. It’s been shown, with plenty of evidence, what their [the 1%] plans are and how they will try to eliminate 99% of world’s population. So, if you are not part of the 1% then you can probably kiss your ass good bye.

You can come on here and practice your drivel all you want, but the evidence of chemtrails, GMO food, lab made viruses, etc. and the addition of capitalist totalitarianism says you are not safe in your home, gated community, mansion, with millions in your bank account, out in public or whatever you may think you have as protection ... because greed kills everything in it’s path.

As long as greed is in power you are not safe, NO ONE IS.
We can clearly see this throughout history as many societies and cultures based on greed have perished. If you are ignorant of this fact, as you clearly show by your comments, there is no hope for you or your family.

Oh BTW: everything that’s ever been put on the internet is recorded somewhere. You can try to delete it, manipulate it, lie about it or whatever. By default evidence you put on the internet is linked directly and straight to you. It is the sum of your own evidence that will probably be your downfall.
Enjoy

OM: Do you see ANY sign or indicator that the “Occupation” of Wall Street is ANYTHING OTHER than a textbook example of “the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”?

If not, what is your objection to their actions?  It’s certainly more peaceful than many demonstrations around Women’s Health Centers.  It is an IDEAL example of self-government.  The people there have self-organized food committees, sleeping committees, sanitation committees, “human megaphones” since the police disallowed real ones, security details (they are worried about the police attempting to instill panic and riot by a middle-of-the-night raid). etc.

I used to live in the Washington area and similar “camping” efforts would go on for years, literally years, in Lafayette Square across from the White House.

There is no threat of violence here. No threat of force, other than the peaceful threat implicit in those sacred words:
“the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

All such peaceable assemblies are an attempt at force.  Glenn Beck’s March was an attempt to force Congress to his views.  Farrakhan’s “Million Man March” was such an attempt as well.

What are you afraid of?  Are you afraid of “the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”?

Lets see where I am in all this, as one person who notices everything seems to cost a lot more so it seems money barely lasts making it to end of the month anymore.  Hell I have not taken my wife and me on a vacation for the last 3 years, I suppose not finding a job may have something to do with it. One of the Republican Candidates says if I do not have a job its my own fault, this sounds sorta like if I cannot find a smart Republican its my own fault.

Hell it’s not so bad,... guess I am just one of those spoiled jobless persons who thinks entitlements should be free.  I do not know about you, but everything seems to cost a lot more these days. It is like my neighbors the Jones’es, are having trouble keeping up with me?  Damn I just need to give up attempting to afford things only wealthy people should have, like food or gas.
Has anyone noticed things come in much smaller portions? Like ice cream, cereal or a candy bar?
I suppose this is probably my own fault too!

Hey, my credit cards seem to be charging me more for absolutely nothing more, except it seems they are working hard taking money out of my pocket, well I am real happy to know if I had my own private jet, I could have a nice tax break. 

What about Bank of America, charging fees for using a debit card?  I asked a friend of mine what he thought about it and he told me he did not use a debit card and he had all his retirement invested through B Of A, so it would be hard to do anything like make a change. 

It seems we the consumers are always being sold a bill of goods, sort of like we the citizens are always being told our politicians know what we want.  I heard Boehner the other day, saying people do not want the government choosing their doctors for them, so instead it is better having the insurance companies choosing them for us. I like Boehner, he says we should give a tax break to the job craters, I hope he knows what he is talking about, I sure as hell don’t.

Now the president is going around the nation telling us we need to support his jobs bill and I am wondering how this all fits in with Obama]s Job Czar,  Mr. Immelt CEO of General Electric as our Jobs Czar? It seems Mr. Immelt was a low paid guy who slashed jobs?  This makes me think about the Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney who is known as a job slasher in his own light. Maybe Romney should be our next president, since he had lots of experience as a job slasher which makes him qualified as a job Czar.  Guess if we vote for Romney as president we could be getting a president/job Czar at the same time. 

Well, now I see where I am!

Is this Occupy Wall Street thing a big deal?” the CEO of a major
bank asked Sorkin. “We’re trying to figure out how much we should be worried
about all this. Is this going to turn into a personal safety problem?”

...what if it were?

If the marches achieve no more than the recognition by the corporate media that they exist then that is some sort of win in itself; even if they try their damnest to paint the protestors as unfocused hippy rabble.

I and the rest of the world are watching and holding thumbs that, in fact, this will be the end of the nightmarish slide of our civilization towards a seething mass of desperate humanity as people are displaced by climate change, bombs and resource depletion.

America get rid of the (R)s and (D)‘s who have sold their souls to the corporate moneymakers!

“OzarkMichael, October 9 at 7:15 am Link to this comment

@ITW,

Occasionally you are thick as a brick. Occasionally you are disengenuous. But you have never been a liar.

The problem with merely deleting his post is that the evidence of his evil ways gets erased, and he can later deny that he said it. Truthdig really ought to ban people who make such threats as Gabriel did. “
***************

Thanks, OM….I think. As for the latter, I agree.

Putting ones own house in order may be harder than expected. The inequities of man (humans) against other humans is a historical fact. 

Even good people who go into politics become wrapped up in the tribal political DC world and its perks and opportunitys. So most politicans if not all become what we see and find before us; fill in the blank:__________________, and ____________.  Very few politicians subvert this affect on themselves and I can only name a few on one hand whom I feel are honest.

I believe Elizabeth Warren will be one more so I may able to count them on two hand. Damn, if I am lucky I may have to take off my shoes and socks!

So cleaning house means something to me, but it would be nice to not have only money bought and paid for choices to choose from.

Anarcissie said:

So the political system is broken.  To speak for the mildest, most-harmless-to-capitalism social democracy requires people to adopt the radical method of going into the streets.  And things are getting worse.

You are being somewhat honest about the nature of the Occupation. you are honest enough to admit that the Occupation is actually a type of force. It short-circuits democracy.  You may be able to justify that. There are times in politics when force is needed, starting with civil disobedience. Or even direct action. Yes, i am being nice about this for a moment even though you do not treat me as a equal.
They chant “this is what democracy looks like” and the MSM faithfully amplified it for them at first, but there are too many fig leafs here and too much dishonesty on your part. It is past time for us to get to what is real. If you cannot deal with me as an equal, our discussion will never get to what is real. I think thats a shame. I really do.

Its time to be honest. Time could be running out, I sense it from the news, the videos, and from your recent posts. I want to know if the Occupation is worth telling the whole truth about or if you want to defend it with a cover of pretense and half-truth.

Because your half-truth is going to sink you guys. We conservatives have latched on to all the chinks in your stories, and the word is getting out. We made enough noise so that after awhile the MSM is starting to find the half-truths worth looking into. 

If you will be more honest with me i will help instead of hinder. I have some insights and you would benefit from that.

JDmysticDJ—I wasn’t describing what I think, I was describing my perception of what people I would call social democrats or Welfare statists think.  They may not think the Welfare state is the ideal, but it was a social contract they could live with.  They may make up a majority of the electorate; polls show that a majority favor Social Security, Medicare and Single Payer, and oppose military adventures abroad.  They think the rich ought to be taxed and compelled to obey the laws, like everybody else.  They think banks should be stable public institutions.  They didn’t like the bailouts. 

These people no longer have any practical effect on either major political party, in spite of their numbers.  The Republicans are actively attacking the institutions and practices they favor, and the Democrats go along with it while sometimes making ineffectual noises and servicing their masters in the financial industry.

The elections of 2006 and 2008, and the government which resulted from them, show that traditional party politics no longer works for them.  That’s why they’re in the streets.

Telling these people that voting for, working for, and contributing to the Democratic Party as the lesser evil is probably not going to go over well.

As I said before, the response of the Republican Party to the Occupation has been abuse and threats; of the Democratic Party, condescension followed by scheming and conniving, not to reform itself, but to somehow get control of, use, and then destroy the Occupation as it did the anti-war movement.

I don’t know what you or other fans of the Democratic Party plan to do about the situation, but arguing with anarchists is probably not the solution.  You all need to put your house in order.

@ITW,

Occasionally you are thick as a brick. Occasionally you are disengenuous. But you have never been a liar.

The problem with merely deleting his post is that the evidence of his evil ways gets erased, and he can later deny that he said it. Truthdig really ought to ban people who make such threats as Gabriel did.

While it’s good to see people finally getting excited about what’s going on in their society (and not so much celeb worshipping) they again are hitting the wrong targets, now a museum. They are going after everything BUT THE GOVERNMENT. Why don’t they go to the source, who are the enablers of bailouts, unfair tax breaks and deregulation. Look to the government who is making the laws and who is by law answerable to the taxpayer. All their targets are wrong. Wall Street or a museum are not answerable to the public but the government is. Why are they afraid to criticize obama! He enabled Wall Street to take advantage of tax breaks, deregulation and bailouts. If government, as some say, is just as bad as Wall Street, why are there not demonstrations there? Makes you wonder ....

QUOTE, of an avatar being a painting in many (D)evious shades of blue:

“Small unobtrusive government also has its appeal, but “We the People” have many needs that can only be provided by government, and only government has the ability to protect “We the People” from predators.”
___________________

Do “We the People” need the perpetual wars that the (R) & (D) corporate person representing government needs?

Do “We the People” need the ruthless global exploitation of “human resources” that the (R) & (D) corporate person representing government needs?

Do “We the People” need the sociopathic constant growth extraction and disposal economy, which is rapidly leading us into extinction, that the (R) & (D) corporate person representing government needs?

The government that the corporate party’s Republicans and Democrats vote for is a global predator… an insatiable predator that also predates upon those who feed it with their votes.

Whenever Democrats take over a movement the co-opted movement is then led by political prostitutes who serve the corporate persons interests, not the interests of natural persons.

http://www.chenangogreens.org

Gabriel, October 8 at 7:02 pm Link to this comment

ROFL ... you were told to show proof of “This poster has threatened me personally as well, that he would have me arrested.” or piss off.
At the time you were proved to be a liar raspberry
***************

The following emails between me and TD management show who the liar REALLY is.

I sent the Webmaster this, quoting YOUR threat:

‘Dear Webmaster,

Now the threats from Gabriel are getting serious:

You must do something:  This poster must be removed.

“Gabriel, August 7 at 5:08 pm Link to this comment

@ITW

LMAO .. go back and learn to comprehend what you read. You’re in way over your head and a lot of trouble until you learn. The sad part is you’re putting your family and friends in danger as well.”

What danger can my family and friends be in?

Inherit the Wind.’

The Webmaster responded:

“Subject: Re: More threats from Gabriel
Date: Aug 9, 2011 2:08 AM
I’m on it. Thank you for the alert. I’ll respond shortly.”

And your posts were removed. Along with your threat.

Am I reminiscing back to my childhood watching the old TV series ‘Superman’?... Recalling the intro or the beginning of the TV program an announcer with background music describes the whole Super Man thing,... ‘faster then a speeding bullet, stronger then a locomotive can leap tall buildings in a single bound and “Justice for All”?

Growing up Superman was a clear defining of justice for me. I know great men including Superman are not real, but Justice has been a word discussed by philosophers and other thinking people over the centuries. I believe the word may have nebulous meanings   depending on the times?

Since laws can be just or unjust, depending on who happens to be the decider, I suggest justice is not the best word to describe what we are discussing here?

If I recall, justice was never defined satisfactorily by the great minds of the world, well… until I defined it with the help of the spirits from my old friend Tequila, ...  if only I were King!

One error many make is to assume that we HAVE a Justice System. We do not. We have a LEGAL System, which has nothing to do with Justice and everything to do with the Law. Doesn’t make me happy either that it is perverted and subverted, deals made for reputations and notoriety, and generally biased and ineffectual, but that’s how it is.

RE; Anarcissie, October 8 at 6:17 pm

Just a brief comment then I’ll have to give it a rest. As is typical here at truthdig, your comment is chalk full of inaccuracies and distortions of reality. For example you write, “No major politician will defend Social Security and Medicare.” which is a patently false. I agree with you in many respects but I must say your dialectic includes demagoguery.

Social democracy and socialism are brothers of a different mother, so to speak. A mutual understanding of terms and beliefs is important in communication. What you define as a welfare state, I would define as a State concerned with the welfare of its citizens.

“What Do They Want? Justice” I am one of the “They” that wants justice, but I suppose those who expect miracles are bound to be disappointed. I have never believed that Obama is a miracle worker, and I was conflicted about giving my support to Obama, but I came to believe that Obama was, and is, better than the alternative.

The reason there have not been any successful criminal prosecutions is because those criminal prosecutions had no legal standing in our Justice System. The perception that “Justice” can not be achieved after centuries of Jurisprudence and legalism appears to be the reality, but I am one that believes people should never give up their quest for “Justice.” Ideally, a Justice System would serve “Justice” and not the interests of an elite few, but it is what it is, and a complete and total revamping of our Justice System, although desirable, does not seem likely to become a reality anytime soon. I believe that we have gone so far down the road of corruption that change is only possible by increments. With an eye to the future I believe that a little change is better than no change and that guarding against change for the worse is of the utmost importance. It’s a profoundly sad state of affairs we find ourselves in by my appraisal and extricating ourselves from this profoundly sad state of affairs will require painful patience. Knowledgeable well informed people concerned with “Justice” see new outrages nearly everyday, and the desire to bring it all down by any means possible is understandable, but irrational, such a conflagration would only be an escape from the frying pan into the fire by my appraisal. Could what happened in Egypt happen here leads to the question, “What happened in Egypt?” The transitional military government in Egypt recently reneged on its promise to end martial law and instead extended martial law. Additional questions could be asked, “What happened in Libya?” “What happened in Syria?” What happened in Yemen?” What happened in Bahrain?” “Can we overthrow the powers that be in this country?” “Can we be rational and realistic?” Change can only be achieved incrementally. The road back from corruption will more than just likely be a long trudge, not a Sunday outing. I see no quick fix on the horizon, only a long struggle that must be guided by reason. Activism is the highest calling by my appraisal, and I believe only non-violence holds any promise for our future.

Your apparent belief in Anarchism is not without appeal, provided I was inclined to support Anarchism, which I am not, I would ask, “How do we get there from here.” Surely you must realize that Anarchism can never be anything but theoretical. Small unobtrusive government also has its appeal, but “We the People” have many needs that can only be provided by government, and only government has the ability to protect “We the People” from predators. Taken in context, and by definitive measurement, our government is a relative pauper compared to the leviathan of capitalism.

If you want to know what the “Corporate Capitalist Murdering Rip-0ff Crackpot Wacko Zionist Idiot Bastards” are up to check out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxARElpGsxQ

My point JDmysticDJ is: The Left and Right have a common enemy, the power elite whose goal is global control. Sound farfetched? If you study the actions of government it may begin to make sense. Certainly “The People” do not benefit from all these wars. “The People” do not benefit from the crazy ups and downs of the Dow. “The People” are being told that there is no money for social programs, education, prison upkeep, highway repair, etc. There is money for war, endless war, the power/elite benefit from war, taking the spoils of a country for personal gain. Contractors entering to “rebuild” Iraq and also Afghanistan reap profits for the power/elite while working class parents are given a flag and/or medal in memory of their very dead offspring who recruiters signed up by lying through their teeth. Those fortunate enough to return from the endless wars may be mentally scarred or physically unable to pursue their chosen profession. 
As to snipers I totally agree concerning Medgar Evers and Martin Luther King. You might also include John Kennedy.  However, his assassination may have involved more cloak-and-dagger stuff. Evangelicals are being used only to be given the boot when they have served their purpose. That includes you Michael.

re: ITW

ROFL ... you were told to show proof of “This poster has threatened me personally as well, that he would have me arrested.” or piss off.
At the time you were proved to be a liar

JDmysticDJ, October 8 at 10:29 am:

By Anarcissie, October 7 at 2:56 pm

“It is the Democratic Party leadership which has been divisive.  They have chosen to divide themselves from the people they claimed to represent.  Occupy Wall Street is simply calling attention to their malfeasance and corruption.”

The fact that Democratic Politicians are divided from the people they claim to represent does not negate the fact that Democratic Politicians better represent the people they claim to represent than would Republicans. The logic that says we should abandon the Politicians that represent us best, and divide any affective opposition to those who don’t represent us at all; allowing those who don’t represent us at all to take power is not logic at all. ...

I don’t think it’s a matter of degree any more.  Regardless of what people like me may think, a great many Americans rather like social democracy and the Welfare state.  It is the social contract people grew up with after the New Deal and World War 2.  Now, no major party speaks for them.  They have been cast into the outer darkness with the anarchists and the socialists, and everything they want is ‘off the board’.  They don’t like the bailouts or the wars, but these go forward; meanwhile, no one will permit Single Payer to be even discussed, no major politician will defend Social Security and Medicare, foreclosures and homelessness abound and unemployment soars.  War criminals and financial criminals go unpunished.  Their great leaders bow and scrape before their enemies. 

So the political system is broken.  To speak for the mildest, most-harmless-to-capitalism social democracy requires people to adopt the radical method of going into the streets.  And things are getting worse.

So far the response of the major parties has been abuse and calls for repression from the Right, and attempts at subornation and ‘elite capture’ from the so-called Left, in other words, business and profit as usual.  As they go off the cliff.

That’s the situation.  Don’t expect the protesters to solve the problems for you.

RE; OzarkMichael, October 8 at 10:47 am Link to this comment
JDMysticDJ interjects:
O[B]zerk Michael correctly states that elements of the Left are prone to violence, but then makes a quantum leap of irrationality asserting that ALL the Left are prone to violence. His moronic dialectic is based on a grotesquely absurd false premise which ignores reality.
“What you call my ‘moronic dialectic’ is based on Leftist analytical methods used against the Tea Party. I absolutely insist that we treat all activists with the same dialectic. In fact, that has become the whole point of my blogging here.”

You O[B]zerk Michael equate your moronic dialectic with Left dialectic. You absolutely insist that all activists be treated with the same dialectic, but all activists are not equivalent, and your assertion that they are is what makes your dialectic moronic. Activists from opposing perspectives have clear and distinct differences that often go beyond mere differences in perspective but also include differences in behavior, acuity, etc. e.g. equating riotous behavior from opposing perspectives is logical, but equating rioters with peaceful protestors is not.  Granted, the distinctions between Occupy Wall Street and Tea Partiers are not that easily defined, but the distinctions are there just the same. Occupy Wall Street espouses non-violence and may appear to be threatening and menacing to some, but actual threats of violence along with menacing behavior were evident among Tea Partiers and the actual acts of violence perpetrated by Tea Party activists and supporters have been tabulated and documented, so any attempt to equate the two factions and the insistence that they be perceived equally is a dialectic moronic, but not as moronic as your contention that ALL people from the Left are prone to violence. Setting aside the contention that many Tea Partiers are lacking in intelligence, grossly uninformed, easily duped, and influenced by simplistic dogma, the facts as they have been, indicate that members of Tea Party as a sociological sub-group are prone to being, at least, rude, bigoted, and profane, and at most pathologically murderous. It is my belief that Tea Party leaders are: Mean spirited, bigoted, iconoclastic, and devoid of the norms of human compassion, while the average Tea Partier is merely stupid. I’ll concede that proving the validity of that belief would be difficult especially to people such as yourself, who are prone to denying evidence and who are lacking in the ability to perceive or to comprehend without being blinded by held bias. The indications are as I believe and I will hold to that belief based on those indications. Such is inductive reasoning, given credence by deductive reasoning.   
“It is safe to say that every Truthdigger here, including more reasonable ones such as ITW, have cheerfully used that ‘moronic’ type of dialectic against the Tea Party from day one.”

As is stated above the dialectic you to attribute to truthdiggers is not at all moronic; being based on induction and deduction it is empiricist. Your assertion that it is safe to say may be true according to a classical definition of what is safe, but you are not safe from my condemnation, but I’ll concede to a sense of cheerfulness in that respect, and again, and surprisingly, you show some limited ability to perceive. I have said from day one that the Tea Party were the vanguard of a neo-fascism. I would equate Tea Partiers with geriatric Brownshirts.

(More below)

RE; OzarkMichael, October 8 at 10:47 am #2

“Its even in your post, JDMysticDJ, because you complain about the ‘moronic’ dialectic in one breath and then in the next paragraph you used the ‘moronic dialectic yourself! Leftists are deliciously hypocritical.”

Before I will concede to moronic dialectic, I’ll have to see the example of moronic dialectic to which you refer. I will concede that attempting to get you to acknowledge your moronic dialectic smacks of being moronic, but I prefer to think my dialectic here, regarding you, is one of ridicule, not related to moronic dialectic. Hum…? Deliciously hypocritical…? Not so, but Bon Appetite!

“I have merely expropriated your very own dialectic method and used it against you. I insist,I absolutely insist, that we engage as equals, bound by the same rules of dialectic analysis.”

Sorry, we can not engage as equals, per se, your mental faculties and dialectic are limited by your bias, but I grudgingly admire your tenacity. You never seem to tire of exposing yourself as being the fool.
 
“If the dialectic is moronic, look at the mirror but dont blame me.”

Having looked in the mirror, I did not see a purveyor of moronic dialectic. I don’t blame you, I am, as I said before, grateful for your moronic dialectic, it is illustrative.

RE; elisalouisa, October 8 at 2:50 pm

Is sniping at the Left AND Right also garbage? If it comes down to sniping, I think that you’ll find the snipers will be of the Right, Medgar Evers, Martin Luther King, John Kennedy were all the victims of right-wing snipers.

“Which side are you on?” Is a song written by a union wife, and sung by wide variety of siders, all of which knew which side they were on.

The Right has filled the atmosphere with the stench of fetid corpses, and pretending its not so, or wishing it not so, will not cleanse that stench. Being on the side of humanity and not on the side of war and destruction is our only hope of eliminating any further stench. Not having a side is the essence of personal non-existence, and the lesson of existential philosophy. Choosing the wrong side and not choosing a side yields the same result.

Here’s one, among others, who has not commented on the tea baggers Michael.

There is a greater menace which looms over those not part of the oligarchy.  Left/Right petty sniping is indeed garbage when one considers that elite money/power is slowly bleeding the middle and working class to death. If those occupying Wall Street really become a threat any and all measures will be used to subdue them.

That is my objective analysis “whether you like it or not.” Just quoting your words Michael.

Point of View:
Supporting no political ideology
-Politics by definition are self-serving extentions of vested interests and as such do not even represent those citizens who vote for them.

My only purpose here is to promote justice in the world. All people by virtue of their birth should have equal access to justice. Because power is concentrated by accumulation of wealth this balance is broken. The accumlation of wealth would be less harmful if it were not combined with the ability to influence the aplication of Justice.

I feel that many internet commenters waste their time and considerable talents by engaging in personal conflicts and attacks, rather than working to promote Justice.

I have been trying to promote the petition to force a closure in the Bradley Manning case which has been held in limbo for over 500 days.
https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions#!/petition/free-pfc-bradley-manning-accused-wikileaks-whistleblower/kX1GJKsD
I cannot understand that so few people have enough interest in justice to stand up to support this initiative. While some do not have the courage to be counted, I am afraid that more people just don’t care.

JDMysticDJ interjects:

O[B]zerk Michael correctly states that elements of the Left are prone to violence, but then makes a quantum leap of irrationality asserting that ALL the Left are prone to violence. His moronic dialectic is based on a grotesquely absurd false premise which ignores reality.

What you call my ‘moronic dialectic’ is based on Leftist analytical methods used against the Tea Party. I absolutely insist that we treat all activists with the same dialectic. In fact, that has become the whole point of my blogging here.

It is safe to say that every Truthdigger here, including more reasonable ones such as ITW, have cheerfully used that ‘moronic’ type of dialectic against the Tea Party from day one.

Its even in your post, JDMysticDJ, because you complain about the ‘moronic’ dialectic in one breath and then in the next paragraph you used the ‘moronic dialectic yourself! Leftists are deliciously hypocritical.

I have merely expropriated your very own dialectic method and used it against you. I insist,I absolutely insist, that we engage as equals, bound by the same rules of dialectic analysis. 

If the dialectic is moronic, look at the mirror but dont blame me.

What a tangent of posters shying away from the obvious!

The Occupy Wall Street Protests is not focused for a reason, they know pigeonholing is a media standard operation of necessity.

The disparity of the many is real, the control by the few is real, this is the crux of the protest. I am not even there and I support the protest, for they speak my feelings and discontent.

One thing which may or could happen, is the same thing which happened to the college student unsurprising and over running of the US Console in Iran. Suddenly being taken over   by political and religious fanatics. Power always attracts opportunists, well maybe just maybe this time may be different?

I can fantasize or am I just hoping?

By Anarcissie, October 7 at 2:56 pm

“It is the Democratic Party leadership which has been divisive.  They have chosen to divide themselves from the people they claimed to represent.  Occupy Wall Street is simply calling attention to their malfeasance and corruption.”

The fact that Democratic Politicians are divided from the people they claim to represent does not negate the fact that Democratic Politicians better represent the people they claim to represent than would Republicans. The logic that says we should abandon the Politicians that represent us best, and divide any affective opposition to those who don’t represent us at all; allowing those who don’t represent us at all to take power is not logic at all. I won’t use the M word but I do think that a form the M word ending in ic is applicable to this kind of logic. That being said, I believe Democratic Politicians believe in their hearts of hearts that they are doing their best to represent the people they claim to represent, and I’ll suggest that the constant rejection they receive from those they believe they are representing has the affect of widening the divide. For example, my once strong feeling of camaraderie with people from the Left has deteriorated into a divide. I very intentionally divide myself from some people on the Left who I believe are ic-y. Give me a unified Left that works and votes for the best interests of ordinary Americans, the 99%, whatever, and there will be no divide. Those who possess as much political acuity as is possible in this divided chaotic political reality we find ourselves in realize that some of those who claim to represent the 99% don’t actually represent the 99% even if they think they do. Some don’t even represent a tiny percentage of the 99% they claim to represent. Some ain’t representin’ they clownin’ and their clowning might discredit the Left and might serve to drive the 99% away from the Left. It’s the bad apple analogy. A few bad apples doesn’t ruin the barrel, but those bad apples can discourage buyers.

I have long advocated political action, non-violent protest, and non-violent civil disobedience as a means of bringing important issues to the forefront of political debate and many here who have been negative about that advocacy, such as yourself, are now all gung ho about something that has the potential for being a divisive negative rather than a unifying positive.

I heard on interview with a spokesperson for Occupy Wall Street, i.e. a leader say that Occupy Wall Street was a leaderless, independent organization, opposed to both Political Parties. Some here have suggested that Union participation in Occupy Wall Street is a bad thing, Some elements of Occupy Wall Street have jeered long time left-wing MSNBC stalwarts, leading to divisive alienation rather than unified action.

I’m not just an opponent of Wall Street corruption and greed, I’m also a staunch opponent of capitalism; moving away from the capitalist paradigm to a more equitable and humane paradigm is to me the most noble of objectives but such can only be accomplished non-violently and incrementally through concerted unified struggle. I am a social democrat with a utopian eye for the future. I am what the right-wing fears and hates, Occupy Wall Street has the potential to fulfill a necessary function, or to serve as a counter productive counter revolutionary detriment to revolutionary progress. Obama and the Democrats, in spite of themselves, serve as a bulwark against right-wing regress and withdrawing support from Obama and the Democrats can only serve the interests of the Right. Those are the facts, deal with them.

@JDmysticDJ “The overt and covert overthrow of popular governments, support , training, and financing of, death squads, murderous governments, and “Freedom Fighters,” etc. along with wars that killed millions and caused misery incalculable are the result of right-wing ideology, and such are the indisputable facts of history. The only objections to such monstrous activities have come from the more rational and humanitarian Left.”

Truth statements. The common tactic of the right is to bully and create economic and environmental war on the planet and then when the left strikes back it’s always the “rage” of the left that is criticized. Personally, I love the rage and swim in it.

Additionally, Mitt Romney has stated that Republican voters can count on him to pursue policies intended to preserve U.S. world supremacy; a continuation of murderous and ultimately self destructive folly.

I must interject. O[B]zerk Michael correctly states that elements of the Left are prone to violence, but then makes a quantum leap of irrationality asserting that ALL the Left are prone to violence. His moronic dialectic is based on a grotesquely absurd false premise which ignores reality.

The magnitude of institutional and individual violence has resulted from right-wing, American exceptionalist ideology which is a matter of the public record. The overt and covert overthrow of popular governments, support , training, and financing of, death squads, murderous governments, and “Freedom Fighters,” etc. along with wars that killed millions and caused misery incalculable are the result of right-wing ideology, and such are the indisputable facts of history. The only objections to such monstrous activities have come from the more rational and humanitarian Left.

There is a very clear dichotomy between Left and Right in our country and in our politics and I am very grateful to O[B]zerk Michael for illustrating that dichotomy with his moronic, and/or, willful ignorance.

(Mitt Romney, perhaps the least extreme of the Republican candidates for President has stated his opposition to withdrawing U.S. military forces from Afghanistan in 2014 and that, along with economic policies, my radical: anti-Democrat left-wing and anti-government, underinformed, “Independent” leaderless, friends is a further illustration of the dichotomy between Democrats and Republicans.)

“OzarkMichael, October 7 at 3:54 pm Link to this comment

Gabriel said: “You have a problem with some corporate shill? A brick through a window or a few well placed shots will do the trick .. never hitting them, just to send a message.”

You have crossed the line and it ruins everything else you say here. You need to take that back. “
**************

I rarely agree with you, but this time I’m 100% in your corner.  This poster has threatened me personally as well, that he would have me arrested.

I may have a very different view of corporations than you, but I want LEGAL changes made, not violent ones.

Whats with all this petty sniping and Left/Right garbage?

The above remark is precious. The timing of this remark is perfect. We never heard anything like this on Truthdig when the Tea Party was working towards solutions. No sir, it was sniping 24/7 and no calls for unity here at Truthdig. But now with Occupy Wall Street there are all these calls for an end to “petty sniping”.

It is so ecumenical! So much greater than anything we have ever witnessed before! So much bringing out the best of us! Its so ‘everyone against the bad guys now’! So 99%!

So much crap.

Sorry, but i wont put up with it or your hypocritical calls for blind acceptance of mass manipulation.

An objective analysis is called for, and it will be rendered whether you like it or not.It will be rendered especially since the Leftists are suddenly too starry eyed to do it themselves.

Gabriel in his last post rants about the “Ruling Class.” That is a Leftist theme, and you can hear it from the Occupiers too. If anyone wants to challenge me on this question, I will have an easy time proving that i am right. The videos and photos and interviews and signs are all over the place.

re: Paul

It’s OK, this is part of the info war. Corporate capitalist sociopaths like to come on here and muddy the waters, as OzarkMichael clearly shows. Same old tricks that have been used over the ages by ruling class and we can now clearly see through.
Same as Scientology, CIA, MK Ultra and corporate advertizing use on unsuspecting feeble minded people.

Sum of the links in this thread give us the tools to fight back against such abuses.

You want a real challenge? Go to http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/
It’s run by group of mainstream hardliners. If you explain to them full function of something and show full proof they will battle you till mods kick you off.
Many historians, scientists and others with differing views and extensive evidence have been dissed off the site when they challenge those users to come to public meetings to show proof. Many have had their computers compromised due to making challenges on that site, even tracked and outright threatened.

We shut it down lawfully for a short but they are back up again.

What it all comes down to is:
“Know thyself and thou shall know all the misteries of the gods and universe.” ~ Inscription on Temple of Apollo
This means knowing everything fully to the micro and macro, and all facets of being. It’s what the ancients knew as everyday knowledge. With this knowledge you become “the creators” and Universal Equals.

That’s actually why the ruling class is so afraid now.

Whats with all this petty sniping and Left/Right garbage? Are you all just bored people who really don’t care about anything but feel a need to post messages on a forum?

There is real world stuff that needs doing and real world problems that need solving. How about you spend some of that negative energy to creat solutions, or at least ideas that others can work off.

Gabriel said: “USofA is a corporation made by the British.”

1)Outsized claims of corporate control are a Leftist staple. Agreed Anarcissie?

Gabriel said:” Same ruling families, merchants and money traders have been at this control game…”

2)Inherited wealth is resented by Leftists. Agreed?

Gabriel said: “They had lots of time to practice how to control the populace and they don’t give a shit even if they wipe out 90% of men/women and most of this planet.”

3)Global warming and its subsidiary claims of
4)intentional genocide are common Leftist themes. Agreed, Anarcissie?

Gabriel said: “Yet they are afraid, very afraid / deathly afraid, of what may be in store for them if they don’t provide “Remedy” to their fraudulent system.”

5)Leftists like Chris Hedges love the ‘afraid’ theme.
6)Also complaining that we have a ‘fraudulent’ system is a Leftist mainstay.

Gabriel said: : “US citizens have been duped by politics, lies, patriotism, bad education system…”

7)The Left denigrates patriotism
8)The Left promotes the idea that we have been duped into patriotism… thats one of your favorites isnt it?

9)His call for harm to private property is also Leftist.(sand in the gas tank of corporate vehicles or whatever it was)

10)His wish for violence(documented earlier) against corporate people is unfortunately not new to the Left, which gives up on normal democratic means rather often.

Briefly Anarcissie, you will need 10 points to earn a draw and 11 to prove me wrong. I am guessing you can come up with 3 points, so just admit it: this Gabriel fellow is in the menagerie of Leftist odd folks.

I know you dont agree with his attitude and some of what he says, but dont artifically push him over the Right. He doesnt belong here and we dont want him!

Besides, we have nuts of our own.

OzarkMichael, October 7 at 6:16 pm:

‘... Congrats Gabriel, because folks like you prove that the Left on Truthdig is more violent and law-breaking than the Right.’

Poor logic there.  At least four serious fallacies.

1.  You haven’t defined the sets ‘Left’ and ‘Right’, even vaguely.  For all we know, they intersect.

2.  You haven’t shown that ‘Gabriel’ is a member of the set ‘Left’.

3.  Fallacy of composition: even if ‘Gabriel’ were a member of the set, nothing he/she/it did would prove anything about other members of the set.

4.  Because ‘Gabriel’ writes of illegal or violent activities does not mean he/she/it engages in them or intends for anyone else to.  Gabriel may be a troll or a fool—or even an AI program gone astray.

I suggest you handle Gabriel as I do.  I think you’ll be the happier for it.

re: OzarkMichael
Not everyone is your puppet for rolling over and dying, and I’m not your left or right puppet either.

I, as anyone else, have the right to defend myself, my family and loved ones. If that means sending a message to an idiot to back off then that is my prerogative.

Law states: safety and security of the individual takes precedent over a thing.
I’m sure your parents taught it to you.
If they didn’t they were negligent in their duties

Furthermore, if anyone attacks me unjustly I have the right to use the minimal amount of force possible to stop them. I don’t care if it’s a cop, robber, bully, some corporate or government shill or anyone else.

Obviously you don’t have kids or don’t care about them to say as you did.

According to Ancient Law a mother has the Right to kill anyone whomever so much as touches her kid without permission.

Gabriel said: “You have a problem with some corporate shill? A brick through a window or a few well placed shots will do the trick .. never hitting them, just to send a message.”

I objected:  You have crossed the line and it ruins everything else you say here. You need to take that back.

Gabriel responds: “You gotta learn how to read a sentence. The word “problem” is before the words “some corporate shill”. Does it not mean that corporate shill created the problem and you have the Right to defend yourself?”

This isnt a matter of education or style. If everyone takes it upon themselves to start throwing bricks through people’s windows who they feel have wronged them, or start taking some “well placed shots” at people who they disagree with, then the nation will degenerate into violence and chaos.

I asked you to take back the “well placed shot” remark and you didnt. Now we all know that you embrace violence to get the political change you want.

Congrats Gabriel, because folks like you prove that the Left on Truthdig is more violent and law-breaking than the Right. I gave you a chance to back out, you blew it. End of story.

SALLYSENSE….SOCKED IT TOO HIM..

Scheer addresses part of the problem when he says:  ..“the demonstrators are seeking accountability for Wall Street and corporate America for the financial crisis and the growing economic inequality gap.” But “accountability”  is a slipper word:  Accountabiliy for what? Stealing? Concentrating capital at the top? Encouraging people to make shoddy investments?  Not telling the truth in time to avoid ruining the “underclasses”? Making huge profits out of war?”  And Accountability enforced by whom? The system of capitalism itself does not provide for much accountability to anyone except stock-holders and even lots of them miss out on less-than-obvious details.
  The problem is with capitalism itself—as with communism or any other system run by a minority of “bosses” (managers) at the expense (always) of the “common” people. In that sense, capitalism and democracy are mutually exclusive, though nobody wants to say so.  But the Founding Fathers, rich though some of them were, still couldn’t bring themselves to establish a “financial democracy”—thinking that maybe a “social democracy might be enough.”
  Then came tremendous exploitation and development,  rapidly, on the backs (too often) of slaves, poor farmers and immigrant labor—all underpaid and overworked.  It’s all there in the history. It needs a profound re-thinking and the establishment of changes that will minimize differences rather than maximize them.
  Are you ready for that?  It could be done—and that, peaceably—if a majority of intelligent citizens worked out how to do it.  But business and politics as usual already think they have a good thing going.  They will have to be convinced by hard evidence and a spirit of broadminded and gentle humanism.  Someday, maybe, by the grace of God and all the saints and angels on the ceiling of the Sistene Chapel.

Oh man you PPL are slow ... [face plant into hands].

Why do you need to be “governed” in any way shape of form if you are a Sovereign [King or Queen]?
Kings, Queens, Titans, Gods, Shamans, etc. were/are all individuals preserving and dispensing of knowledge for the benefit of ALL. It is your Right to access this knowledge to better yourself and ones around you. It’s only in last 10,000 or so yrs that they have held it back from ppl to gain control over them.
That’s you.

Deceleration of Independence is setup to be a governing body over others
Constitution is setup to govern over others.

Only rules that matter are those of the Universe and Natural Law. They are absolute Laws.
Some are mentioned here so a 10 yr old can comprehend [2 parts]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN3mnZK-l_4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LE0pvkQ9Bmo

... The rest are of your making in order to get along with others and Nature. If you are learned enough then you can have access to rest of Universal Laws. Duh. [that’s the nicest way i can put it]

re: OzarkMichael
You gotta learn how to read a sentence. The word “problem” is before the words “some corporate shill”.
Does it not mean that corporate shill created the problem and you have the Right to defend yourself?

Even before that, does not a question mean you are willing to learn?

Shit, no wonder I passed high school, collage and university here with only a grade 5 European backwoods education.
You ppl bitch about me being condescending? No wonder if you can’t even read what’s in front of you.
And don’t think for a minute I didn’t catch onto the rest.

You ppl have the best opportunity in your life to set things right in North America and you’re pissing it away by being ignorant, ignorant of the facts. What’s worse is you don’t come up with any comprehensive solutions.

Shame on all of you.

I get tired of hearing “the wealthy” say we have a PROGRESSIVE tax system, and they’re doing us all favors by paying higher rates! We have a REGRESSIVE tax system!!

The truth is our largest companies (GE, Exxon, Halliburton, etc.) incur such high security costs overseas, not to mention the incalculable risks, they can’t possibly afford to price them in! Let’s face it, Exxon has a free US Navy protecting their fleets of tankers, this includes any company shipping products across seas, such as Apple, INC. They pass the costs down to the medium-large companies, who in turn, pass what they can further down, in a “pressure-down” system. Maybe this is an economic necessity -for the massive human resources (the other 99%) to insure against failures with taxation or conscription- and would therefore not insult me. What insults me is what we are taught in US business schools: that our tax system is “progressive”; this to me seems utterly FALSE!! 

Indeed, excessively taxing the lower and middle classes has probably been useful of political power and capital since the beginning of time; lying about it is new, however (but serves a purpose): it makes everyone feel better to believe we have a “progressive” tax scheme -and it makes everyone look good.

Below is a link to a simple graph of what I mean; the idea is so old, and the graph so simple, it takes work to understand why we don’t accept it. 

http://kissbrothers.com/graphics/pictures/trading costs and federal revenues.jpg

Essentially, the “benefits and entitlements” are insurance payments to the “lower classes” for when things go very wrong, and they have, many, many times -since Byzantium.

The Top 1% account for more of the total income in the US compared to other
countries. In 1950, wealth concentration in the US was comparable to other
countries.

http://www.verisi.com/resources/us-income-inequality.htm

Besides the growing financialization, focusing on Wall Street’s excess (e.g., bonus
payouts) is appropriate: the last two years saw the largest NYC bonus totals,
outside of the record breaking 3-year stretch from 2005-2007. See charts below
for details:

http://www.verisi.com/resources/wall-st-bonuses.htm

Gabriel said: “You have a problem with some corporate shill? A brick through a window or a few well placed shots will do the trick .. never hitting them, just to send a message.”

You have crossed the line and it ruins everything else you say here. You need to take that back.

Justice cannot exist without Courage
Lest we forget: where all this began

http://www.opednews.com/articles/R-U-One-in-300-for-Justice-by-Paul-Repstock-111002-630.html?show=votes#allcomments

Gabriel, Thanks for so eloquently making my point on division in Amerika that
stands in the way of a combined method of reasoning thru issues without
attacking the messenger for their message - So now it’s my turn for your
indignant rants huh - why, because I missed a question mark that was
supposed to mean ???? How’s that, can you answer me?
I think you’re probably as frustrated as most everyone else on the issues every
American faces today to the Solvency of the United States. But calling people
nutz, or saying that I’m not offering solutions tells me you are like most every
other American - You don’t have a clue about Irony. Go back and read my
earlier posts with the Cont’d segment following, and read between the lines for
a solution that some thought on your part might reveal.
Look, I appreciate your support and help in making my point on why the
Banker’s are winning the battle on keeping American’s at each others throats
constantly distracted and divided, so that there’s no balance or unity! However,
I would look inward for solutions rather than rely on others to give them to you
so you can override them and disagree without providing any thing of
substance your self as well! Do you feel entitled or something?  Cheers, peace,
have a nice day, whateva!!!

hiya again gabriel… like had said before…
what you see… and what you do… is up to you…

from among some…

“in congress… july 4 1776…
the unanimous declaration of…
the thirteen united states of america”...

(and on beyond comes)...

...on a fourth of july in seventy-six…
...thirteen young colonies broke away from the brits…
...their continental congress adopted independence…
proclaiming… “when in the course of human events”...
...through compelling methods left unto men’s hands…
“it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands”...
...by revolt cutting ties to that overseas mother…
“which have connected them with another”...
...hence early states shall be given new birth…
“and to assume among the powers of the earth”...
...vowing to those both the poor and the rich…
“the separate and equal station to which”...
...a conscience of liberty is deeded wherein…
“the laws of nature and of nature’s god entitle them”...
...in giving freedom of thought a home’s open mind…
“a decent respect to the opinions of mankind”...
...as publicly made so all be aware…
“requires that they should declare”...
...those reasons behind the states’ liberation…
“the causes which impel them to the separation”...
...that man’s awareness is justly meant…
“we hold these truths to be self-evident”...
...let our account set about its sequel…
“that all men are created equal”...
...through references being related before…
“that they are endowed by their creator”...
...as is our accord under this light…
“with certain unalienable rights”...
...of inborn standards in so far…
“that among these are”...
...opportunity bearing to have full bequest…
“life… liberty… and the pursuit of happiness”...
...furthered by procurement’s plight…
“that to secure these rights”...
...representation’s arrangement begins and…
“governments are instituted among men”...
...with fair play replacing oppressive old sovereign…
“deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed”...

(part one)...

(from among some continued)...

...as previous leaders raised devastation within…
“that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends”...
...then since its embodiment must ensure things stay fit…
“it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it”...
...reconstructively necessitating earnest attempts…
“and to institute new government”...
...whose support helps well being for one and all…
“laying its foundation on such principles”...
...of enacting a working plan up from that core…
“and organizing its powers in such form”...
...for each action’s outcome to reflect basic interests…
“as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness”...
...since careful consideration subsequently rehashes…
“prudence indeed will dictate that governments long established”...
...can’t waste transformation on trivial loss as…
“should not be changed for light and transient causes”...
...hence history’s clear hindsight makes it well known…
“and accordingly all experience hath shown”...
...ill ways garner gain when heavily readily touchable…
“that mankind are more disposed to suffer while evils are sufferable”...
...through rather less doing of what has to be done…
“than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed”...
...as also its process while checking those stations…
“but when a long train of abuses and usurpations”...
...headed downhill around neck and neck…
“pursuing invariably the same object”...
...leaving commonweal ailing from some tyrant’s favoritism…
“evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism”...
...the public good must use their scrutiny…
“it is their right… it is their duty”...
...through efforts against blatant mismanagement…
“to throw off such government”...
...with protection to shield from ill-willed impurities…
“and to provide new guards for their future security”...
...as ailing distress must overcome hardship solidly…
“such has been the patient suffrance of these colonies”...
...for it needs to be dealt with inevitably…
“and such is now the necessity”...
...in proceeding to eliminate reign’s unjust intent…
” which constrains them to alter their former systems of government”...
...where a legacy left by the crown is now written…
“the history of the present king of great britain”...
...lording his power without rightful validations…
“is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations”...
...relying on injustice to collect…
“all having in direct object”...
...a goal of overbearing control of america’s fate…
“the establishment of an absolute tyranny over these states”...
...hence so nothing is amiss…
“to prove this”...
...this record exposes these details unfurled…
“let facts be submitted to a candid world”!...

(as hence they were!)...

(part two)...

It is the Democratic Party leadership which has been divisive.  They have chosen to divide themselves from the people they claimed to represent.  Occupy Wall Street is simply calling attention to their malfeasance and corruption.

re: Angel ...

“Calling Crystal nutz for her opinions ...”
Did you miss the question mark by any chance? Or did you arbitrarily read in whatever you want?

As for the rest of your diatribe ... I see no solutions from you .. so what’s your problem?

At least I provide some in links .. and a good starting point for those willing to see and learn related material. Where are your comprehensive solutions?

You want to come and play dis games then you better come prepared.

Wow, this topic really has got a lot of people worked
up. I’ve read about the protesters being without leader
and am reminded of a Chinese proverb which says
something to the effect that “When a teacher is needed,
one will appear”
I’m sure that pretty soon somebody will come to the
fore to unite all the disparate factions and they will coalesce into one huge unstoppable body. That is unless
the army blows the crap out of em first.

re: sallysense

LOL ... it took a long time to make the Deceleration of Independence and Constitution ... All USforA Laws are based on them. Any subsequent Laws not according to them are null and void.
That’s your Common Law = Law of the Land.

USofA is a corporation made by the British.
Bills, Acts, Legislation etc. are NOT Laws ... they are part of Maritime Admiralty Law = Law of the Seas .. a British construct for the purpose of doing Commerce.

Get it right.

Declaration of Independence and Constitution are only extensions of more Ancient Laws. Unless you know them, regrettably, you don’t know squat ... well, only a small recent part maybe.

When you get close to Laws of MU and AT then you are getting core Laws. You know these, walk into a court room and the Judge will bow to you = You are the Law, as you know more and can’t be fooled.

I’ve had judges literally run out of court room when I walk in. I’ve also pulled a Judge’s bond, arrested them on the spot, billed them according to my fee schedule, evicted them off “The Land”, etc.
Starting to see the difference?

Get with the program ... go and learn.

When you can tell me the difference between ATEN and AMUN comprehensively and show me your source as proof you are getting close. Otherwise you’re way out of your league.

Another thing to mention - I see nothing wrong with Natural Justice! The justice
system and Police State in America has been twisted to protect the rich and
pummel the not’s. The Canadian Poster below is telling you something about
Natural Justice and how it’s works to balance the bullshit. Don’t get mad, get
even. Sometimes you can rely on Kharma to catch up with the perps of
injustice, sometimes you need to give kharma a hand. That’s the way life works
outside Lala land Amerika and it works just fine to keep the scum bags
(Contractor’s, Banker’s, Loan sharks and other thieves) on their toes and
thinking before they get a brick through the window, and gives a real good
message for someone who doesn’t think to wake up! In such a corrupt society
as America these days, this approach might appall some, but Natural Justice
works because it makes people think before they act, maybe that’s something
foreign to American’s??? Or maybe it’s not been on channel 7, or the Domino’s
Pizza menu???
This comment will probably piss ardee off, but the majority of apathetic fat
assed, dumbed down couch potato’s in the US need a wakie-wakie call… That’s
the way it used to work in America a long time ago before everybody hid in
their houses and covered their heads with their pillows instead of making
things right! Remember “Fool me once”?

What a dismal turn this thread has taken! Crystaldemon, you have every right to
be angry with Banks and the usury system that has evolved since Nixon threw
the Gold Standard in the rubbish bin! It opened the door for Fiat money
(worthless paper) to be printed and it has undermined value’s of everything
produced by the hard work of every man, woman and child in every Country
that it’s being used! It’s a grand Ponzi Scheme that Rob’s all it’s user’s by
discounting every single thing it’s used to buy of any value whatsoever.
Whenever Bank’s get in a pinch, they can run to the Federal Reserve printing
press and print off more of it, which effectively lowers the value of the
everything, further robbing the user of any future value of anything they buy.
It’s a rich man’s credit card that pays dividends back to them. Paper money is a
depreciating IOU!
Gabriel, Calling Crystal nutz for her opinions is what I see as the symptomatic
problem at the base of the American meltdown. You may have a point in the
Usury system being completely immoral, but dis’ing Crystal when she wants
fairness in lending or calls for the electoral system and Regulatory system to
open up People’s right to vote on issues that directly affect their lives and
abilities to borrow for Home’s, Car’s, or major purchase items that they deem
necessary for enriching their lives after they have worked their fingers to the
bone for years of their short lives producing goods and services for public
consumption and being supressed by usury interest rate’s from Banks and other
scum lender’s holding a gun to their heads and having a Sheriff Sale notice in
their pockets to seize your property if you don’t pay up is the root of greed and
predatory practice!  Practice the principle behind a non-Usury system that
you’re selling, which is - We are all brothers and Sisters under God (or whoever
is on duty up there) We are all here to help each other to have a fullfilled life,
raise our children and work together to achieve happiness. Your insulting
demeanor toward here opinion is sickening, and it promotes a further divide
between the people living there together, which is exactly what the money
changers want - to keep you divided and unable to make any threat to their
Ponzi scheme to keep you under control, passively supporting the troops sent
to kill those folks that don’t believe in their Ponzi crap lest they infect their
protected system! It appears through your comment on Usury that you may be
a Muslim, start acting like one and embrace your fellow man and help them
whenever you can!
Ozark Michael - I’m sorry, but you are such a typical “Dumb Redneck” example
of years of inbred in the region that has had the effect of wiping out your
learning skills and turned you into the numbed human shell that has disdain for
anything that Bubba, your next door neighbor, thinks is unAmurik’in. Please
apply for a Brain cell transplant!!! You may need to survive in the future when
the people that are fed up with the lopsided system of Dumb-ocracy that
withholds Justice and equal rights from the 60% of folks that struggle just to
keep food on their tables and clothes on their kids! They will be knockin on
your door soon enough because this thing ain’t going away it’s just the
beginning! Of course, these threads need a right wing troll to keep them
laughing, but your viciousness comes across clearly and it typifies the right
wing Tea Party attitude of “take no prisoners’ rally around the flag nationalism,
and wrap your arms around Jeeezus on Sunday then go kill a sand ni—er on
Monday - that sickens my soul! Personally I’m sick of your crankups at people
who have different opinions to yours! You are in a minority here and you need
to sit down and shut your pie hole and listen to other opinions from the Peanut
Gallery where the right wing Minority sits. Cut the verbal farts, ask questions
and be civil!

“It is clear to me that elements if not the
preponderance of thinking by individuals within Occupy
Wall Street, like some here at truthdig, are advocating
a political strategy that is divisive and ultimately
counter productive in terms of advancing a progressive
agenda.”

- JDMysticDJ

Care to elaborate?  What is your perception of the
strategy advocated and how do you see it as divisive? 
If by ‘divisive’ you mean that there are bound to be
those who disagree, well, that’s to be taken for
granted; but I suspect you mean something more specific? 

Given that this movement is more about an expression of
rage and dissent, that it is attempting to give voice to
the disenfranchised, attempting to demonstrate what we
(th 99%, relatively speaking) have in common etc..  how
can this be counterproductive?  On the national stage
we’ve gone from nothing to something.  What are they
doing that is going to disrupt exactly which ongoing
progressive agenda?

((re: sallysense

Again, we lave something called Laws. It’s the only thing that provides protection against the corrupt and abusers. It is knowing those Laws and using them for betterment of all that we can move forward in a peaceful manner.

Wishy washy talk will get you nowhere with powers that be.

Your own words tell the story:
perhaps? = maybe, sort of, could be ... huh?
directed solely at others? = directed = dictate = dictator ..
protestors? = protest = test of a pro = 3 day thing

Come on, any judge would throw you in jail just for opening your mouth.

Go pick up a Law dictionary and check your words before you put them to print. While you’re at it go learn them all the way back to Magna Carta, check all the treaties, contracts, etc. in library of Congress and National Archives.

Rule # 1 in this info war = KNOW TRY ENEMY!

Then and only then you can come back and dis us old farts.))

...

hiya gabriel…

what you see… and what you do… is up to you…

this’un sees the worsening conditions going on in our country…

sadly it’s here for anyone to look around and see quite easily…

and don’t know who’s older… you or me… but this’un remembers the fifties…

laws full of loopholes inherently lack the ability to give true betterment or justice…

as do laws based on legislative bills lacking consistency and fairness throughout…

laws are also available online to look at… and have done that already…

and knowing legal terms doesn’t connote constitutionality…

see for yourself as too often the knowledge of legal terms promotes unconstitutionality…

(so could it be that your own comment reiterates the following ?)...

...

perhaps the best opinions…
aren’t those directed solely at others…
as if viewpoints are mainly reserved for spectators…
filling the stands and telling protestors how to go about things…
but rather the determinations steered head-on at our own selves instead…
showing each of us the hypocrisy of what we’re doing…
when we’re not really doing anything!...

http://citizenvoices.us

Progress occurs in increments, as does regress, upheaval, and revolution. (Forgive me, it’s not my intention to intellectualize; my intention is to communicate my thoughts on this issue in a way that will be understood.) I’ll proffer that populist movements have contributed significantly to progress, i.e. outcomes perceived as being progressive and positive. Providing examples of populist movements that have contributed to perceptions of positive outcomes i.e. progress, should not be necessary. I will offer one example of populist activism that resulted in a most generally perceived negative outcome.

Ken Burn’s latest documentary offering presented by PBS, “Prohibition,” details the negative consequences of populist activism in respect to the prohibition of alcohol. The consequences of the 18th Amendment to the Constitution, a result of populist activism are a matter of the public record, and reciting the details as are presented in Burn’s documentary should also be unnecessary. The point being that populist activism does not automatically lead to positive outcomes.

Depending on perspective, it can be argued that the goals espoused by the populist activists who promoted Prohibition of alcohol were virtuous, but resulted in propagating vice and not virtue, i.e. a negative outcome of populist activism rather than a positive outcome of populist activism. I could further elaborate by recounting the events of the 60’s and early 70’s and point out that militant elements among a populist movement resulted in negative outcomes that had short term tragic consequences and long term long lasting negative consequences, but doing so is beyond the scope of this comment.

To the issue at hand, I am in total agreement with the accusations directed at Wall Street by Occupy Wall Street a fledgling populist movement and I am also in agreement with the objectives of the October Sixth fledgling populist movement. It is my understanding that over thirty suits have been brought against Wall Street firms and individuals, but that none of those suits received more than a hearing, and that none of those suits were litigated because of no legal standing. Our President cited this lack of legal standing as a reason to support proposed legislation to regulate the financial industry. Relating this fact of Presidential initiative will, I have no doubt; result in dogmatic claims that this Presidential initiative was one of deceitful perfidy and not a legitimate attempt to regulate the abuses of Wall Street. At least, this Presidential initiative must be perceived as an incremental improvement by rational people not governed by counter productive emotionalism.

It is clear to me that elements if not the preponderance of thinking by individuals within Occupy Wall Street, like some here at truthdig, are advocating a political strategy that is divisive and ultimately counter productive in terms of advancing a progressive agenda. Occupy Wall Street and the Tea Partiers have a commonality, that commonality is attributing guilt to government. Tea Partiers in their ignorance attribute guilt specifically to governance by Democrats, and align themselves with Republicans, while the seeming preponderance of Occupy Wall Street individuals attribute guilt to both Political Parties who they believe are merely the servants of Wall Street. I personally am conflicted in my support for Occupy Wall Street. I will attend Occupy Wall Street affiliated protests in my locality, but I will remain in opposition to what I believe to be a counter productive political strategy that will be divisive and will only serve the interests of Wall Street Corporatists in the final analysis. Hopefully I won’t be saying, “Analyze this, nihilistic morons,” in 2013 and thereafter.

“President Obama said Thursday that the Occupy Wall Street protests show a ‘broad-based frustration’ among Americans about how the U.S. financial system works.”

re: crystaldemons
ROFL ... you’re delusional ... go learn:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=am+i+free+in+this+so+called+democracy&aq=f&aql=f
... that’s 4 parts.

re: OzarkMichael
Thank you ... but I don’t give a shit about politics / lies.
What I say is part of Natural Law, Sovereign Law, Universal Law and Ancient Law systems. You should read up on them sometime.

re: sallysense

Again, we lave something called Laws. It’s the only thing that provides protection against the corrupt and abusers. It is knowing those Laws and using them for betterment of all that we can move forward in a peaceful manner.

Wishy washy talk will get you nowhere with powers that be.

Your own words tell the story:
perhaps? = maybe, sort of, could be ... huh?
directed solely at others? = directed = dictate = dictator ..
protestors? = protest = test of a pro = 3 day thing

Come on, any judge would throw you in jail just for opening your mouth.

Go pick up a Law dictionary and check your words before you put them to print. While you’re at it go learn them all the way back to Magna Carta, check all the treaties, contracts, etc. in library of Congress and National Archives.

Rule # 1 in this info war = KNOW TRY ENEMY!

Then and only then you can come back and dis us old farts.

sorry i may have got debtor and debtee mixed, getting to tired!

You have a problem with some corporate shill? A brick through a window or a few well placed shots will do the trick .. never hitting them, just to send a message.

            -Gabriel

You are an unhinged and unthinking person. Perfectly suited for the Left. Enjoy the rage

Last I knew, Banks made money off of “our” investments and pay taxes by charging fees to hold secure and or maintain “our” investments.

If a bank decides to Loan maoney through its “own capital” it usually is rquired to have some sort of collateral to secure the loan it makes in it’s own interest to not loose money!

There are stark differences between your towns bank and “loan sharks”. loan sharks have a tendancy to make micro loans with little to no collateral such as putting up a crappy car or your payday loann. some places can put leins on homes but are so far down the line trying to collect on a lein, the debtee runs dry and these loans never get payed back ! The worst people get hit up for money back from the debtor is a threat from a collection agency for years, many people only get an adverse rating on a credit score, they never even get hauled into court for their money back ! so if a person evades a debtee long enough and doesn’t own any home or anything signifigant, the debtor won’t usually chase them for their money back. That’s where banks get into write-offs. and if enough people do this to lending institutions well of course to offset the the write-off the cost of living goes up, the fed gov’t once they absorb these write-offs adjust the value of the dollar! so if millions of people don’t pay their bills like good little boys and girls, their the ones who become the economic hitment and woman, because the rest of the economy has to swallow up their debt!  SLUUUUURRPPP!!!

perhaps the best opinions…
aren’t those directed solely at others…
as if viewpoints are mainly reserved for spectators…
filling the stands and telling protestors how to go about things…
but rather the determinations steered head on at our own selves instead…
showing each of us the hypocrisy of what we’re doing…
when we’re not really doing anything!...

http://citizenvoices.us

re: crystaldemons
Obviously you don’t get it.

Banks make their money from investments of your real money. They and industry used to pay 95% of taxes, as it should be.
According to ALL ancient Laws usury is forbidden and punishable by Death.

Loans are virtual and can be paid off / discharged by:
http://projectarise.com/debtelimprocesses.php
So don’t come on here and spread bullshit.

Go take a basic banking coarse.

well unlike some people, I still drive to my bank, cash paper checks and balance a paper checkbook and carry cash or a debit eith way i’m not a purveyor of credit..don’t like. Imo credit is for absolute emergency relief. otherwise people shouldn’t imo use it!

People are too much into buy now pay later, instant gratification ! No wonder why we are a nation of ADD and ADHD people can’t wait and save for the things they want or need !