I though Kucinich and Gravel both did better than I could have expected, not ever really examining their positions on issues.  Their views are closer to my Independent/Green/Libertarian belief.

Mad As Hell:

The best thing that has happenned to this nation is that Bush was elected President.  This Nation as so many others are going through a generational transition where the old power structures desperately try to hang on to power in order to dominate.  I hardly think that Gore or Kerry would have advanced this country toward a higher standard of democracy, justice and equality. Nor do I believe that any of the current candidates will advance any sort of progressive agenda.  All of the candidates in both parties are indebted to the narrow interests that finance their campaigns.  The markets have no conscience. 

I argue and will continue to argue that until this nation makes Draconian changes in the way that campaigns for public office are financed, elected officials will remain neglignet of their constitutional obligations. It seems to me that no one in this country wants to face this reality.

Best regards,

Econolicious

So, a Kucinich/Gravel ticket makes it to the White House and 50.5% of the voters are happy as hell.  What then?

How about we all chip in ..oh…$20 bucks or so and buy Gravel and Kuchinich a kevlar vest, an armoured Humvee, and well, something to protect their head.  Then we could vote for them in 2008!

We cannot continue to do the same thing and expect a different result.

See, the problem with the Nader thing was… EVERYBODY didn’t do it.  So, let’s get it together.  BE PERSISTENT AND INSISTENT.  Trust me, I learned this from my kids, it’s a great tactic.  When it’s important enough .... it ALWAYS works.  Kuchinich and Gravel both seem to understand this.

Kucinich/Gravel 08
Gravel is the anti Cheney if ever there was one!!!

Although I am a “political news junky,” I never heard of him before yesterday’s debate. Now that I have, I must say, I am extremely impressed! What a sad commentary on the state of America that hearing plain truth spoken on the mainstream media (and to Power) comes across as SO brisk and refreshing, and that this culture’s default reaction to hearing anyone speak with fire against the vicious, murderous lies that pass for the “consensus reality” is that the speaker is “kooky” or some kind of “crank” or - dog forbid, the worst epithet of them all - “unelectable.”

I need to look into the details of his specific policy proposals, past accomplishments and public appearences more closely, but my gut reaction tells me he just converted a die-hard Kucinista from 2004. Although since you’re 77 years old, you should keep Kucinich around as veep. Or Ron Paul.

All the due diligence background check to come aside, during the debate I heard righteous anger spoken with precision and force against candidates and a political-economic-military system all-too-accustomed to letting uni-party, blow-dried, finger-to-the-wind, cardboard cut-outs get away with saying nothing whatsoever while sustaining the imperial program of endless war and corporate rapine.

That critique is what I want to hear more of, and lots of it. Gravel, give me hope in America again. Maybe then this blog will stop calling America Amerikkka.

The MSM is already started to manufacture the Conventional Wisdom - “the debate was a yawn and Gravel doesn’t exist.”

For example, he said that “the military-industrial complex not only controls our government, lock, stock and barrel, but they control our culture.” Strong words, especially spoken on a channel owned by war pimpateers General Electric.

Spot on! What other democratic presidential candidate would possibly say something like this (besides Kucinich)? None of them. Because they are under no illusion that they are auditioning before the voters of a free sovereign nation giving their informed consent but rather for that very military-industrial complex. The so-called “top-tier” candidates know perfectly well that complex not only expects endless war (and unconditional fealty to the least humane elements of Israeli society) but that they also, with the JFK assasination, set down some very clear parameters that they, as the Board of Directors, will not let their CEOs/presidents cross.

I heard the plain truth, obvious to the 0.1% of Americans still capable of critical thought, which never gets an airing in the MSM. He made everyone (except Kucinich) look like the vacuous whores they are, especially the “top-tier” candidates, whose primary goal at the debate and strategy for next year and a half is to say as little of substance as possible and to not fuck up greviously.

Obviously, the MSM is going to ignore or “Dean” him.

For example, Keith Olberman compared him on the night of the debates to that reactionary rascist scumbag Zell Miller (and Olberman is one of the only people in the MSM I have any respect for). Or, if he gains traction, the MSM’s Hive Mind will circle their wagons around the very worst epithet of all, the key to the gates of political oblivion - “unelectable.”

(Similar to how Kerry’s 2004 campaign went from utterly dead-in-the-water to Annointed Frontrunner within a matter of weeks because the MSM suddenly began a drumbeat that he was “electable.”)

In spite of how the media is going to jerk him around and TPTB are going to do their best to keep him out of as many future debates as possible, Gravel is getting a lot of sudden respect on the blogosphere. He is LIGHTING UP You Tube. One montage video has nearly 30,000 views and over 300 comments within two days of being posted! By the third day it had skyrocketed to over 160,000 views and over 600 comments!

Astonishing!

More at http://stonefruit.blogspot.com/2007/04/dark-horse-wins.html

re comment #67380 by MaveriksHMB.  Thank you for posting the petition.  I would sincerely hope that every Truthdig reader who values debate in a democracy will sign it.

In a pre-emptive statement issued on March 16, CNN, WMUR TV and the New Hampshire Union Leader declared their intention to exclude Democratic Presidential candidate Mike Gravel from their tri-sponsored debate on June 3rd.

There is an online petition you can sign to appeal to CNN and WMUR to let Gravel be part of this debate. In my opinion, we shouldn’t let the MEDIA decide who our candidates are.

The goal of the petition is for 10,000 signatures. The petition has been up since Saturday, April 28th. So far, they’re up to 5,881.

CNN and WMUR… Let Gravel Speak!!

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/283054100

re comment #67209 by Mad as Hell.  Unbelievable!  You actually think that the military-industrial complex is simply the product of Republican control.  Where have you been for the past 60 years?  Corporations within the military industrial complex have been actively funding the candidacies of the vast majority of candidates of both the Democratic and Republican parties for six decades.  If you think people are immune to influence peddling simply because they tack the letter “D” at the end of their names, you are exceedingly naive.  You don’t see the monumental difference between a Hillary Clinton and a Dennis Kucinich only because you refuse to open your eyes.

It is the corrupting influece of the massive wealth of the military-industrial complex that explains why the so-called Democratic “leadership” has betrayed the troops and the American electorate by voting to continue to fund the war to the end of Bush’s term, thereby enabling Bush to leave the troops in harm’s way.  It explains why, as part of a bill that does not even provide mandatory deadlines to get out, the Democratic leadership would insist the Iraqis pass a hydrocarbon law that would give the oil cartel a black, sticky substance on the cheap!

Mrs. Clinton says she will end the war when she is elected.  Not good enough, Hillary!  Not when it is within your power to end it now!  That is the truth Gravel’s remarks exposed, and the reason why, MSNBC, whose parent company, General Electric, manufactures most of the weapons used in this war, want to exclude Gravel from future debates.

You rhetorically suggest that Sen. Gravel’s remarks are an “extreme exaggeration,” yet an objective comparison reveals that they are no different from the remarks made by President Eisenhower when he said the “total influence is felt, economic, political, even spiritual in every city…[etc.].”  That remark, made way back in 1961, exposed how far the military-industrial complex had already “captured the culture” in Eisenhower’s time. 

Unlike diehard party-loyalists such as yourself, who seem to be saying, “my party, right or wrong, my party,”  Mr. Kucinich gives credit where it is due.  During a recent CNN interview, he said:  “President Eisenhower was absolutely right, and he understood.  Think about it.  If the war was a money loser for Wall Street, would we still be at war?  The fact of the matter is that this war has been a great profit to defense contractors and…we’re in Iraq…for the same reason: oil.”

Perhaps you should change your handle from “Mad as Hell” to “Mad as a Hatter.”

Gravel and the reaction to him remind us that many Americans are hungry for an independent-minded candidate who demonstrates common sense, honesty and honor.

If Democrats are smart, they will find someone like Gravel to represent the party in upcoming elections.

It is not about “left” or “right” ... but about reasonable and honest positions that can work and help us move forward. Thoughts on this in:

“Independent centrist candidates might strike chord with voters” (AmericanChronicle.com)

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=11985

Look, I think Gravel and Kucinich are truth tellers and the rest of the crowd are pretty much the same ol same ol.

That said, the problems we face are deep and systemic. Regardless of the presidential race, we have a body politic and economic system which are deeply flawed and the institutions that support them have long since been due for replacement.

I think Kucinch (and perhaps Gravel) know this and cannot do anything about it. The others are playing the system as it is and as it has been played over the past 60 years. While our foreign policies have been pathologically problematic for the better part of a century, it’s really post-FDR that the system has lost its vitality, is sustained through the legacy of “last superpower standing” and beneficiary of WWII demise of most of the industrial world.

But the corner has turned. Two wars of choice (and a number of massive investments in valueless propositions) has created an economy which concentrates the wealth in the hands of 5% of the population and added to this the lackluster enthusiasm for the system born of the Declaration of Indepenence, Bill of Rights and US Constitution.

The air has escaped the ballon, and a new beginning must be waged. The politics, as we see them today, are the politics of the past. A grass-roots movement of democratic economics and community ownership, and cooperative businesses is the future - this is a future where foreign policy is utterly transformed

I agree that Gravel and Kucinich were the only ones onstage that have not been bought and paid for by hedge fund managers, multi-national corporations and the like. They hold the moral high ground—end the occupation immediately, bring our troops home now and stop stock piling nukes for some future armageddon. BUT WE CAN’T WAIT FOR 2008!

All of this talk about Election 2008 will be completely moot if our president of Vice, Mr. Cheney gets his way. His plans to nuke Iran are very real. The only thing any one who is a serious patriot should be talking about and doing is gathering support for Kucinich’s HR333 Articles of Impeachment against Dick Cheney. Nothing good can happen as long as that man is still in the White House. And he could bring an end to the world as we know it with a push of a button. The media is complicit in not giving this issue the Sunday morning platform it deserves.

Two 32 foot banners were unfurled in the Senate on Friday and the people responsible were arrested. One banner read, ” Your silence, your legacy”. The other one listed Kucinich’s Articles of Impeachment. I hope everyone on this blog has taken the time to call their representative in the House and ask him or her to sign on to HR333. We need a ground swell. Call your brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, and talk to the cashier at the grocery and the post man and any one you come in contact with. We all complain about this mess. But the only way we have to get rid of this disaster is impeaching Cheney now. How many people can you get to call the House of Representatives tomorrow?

I have made it easy for my co-workers: I listed all of the possible zip codes where they might live and put the name and phone number of their representative next to it. I made a sign about HR333 and asked for their involvement in our democratic process to impeach this imposter in the White House. That banner says it best: “Your silence, your legacy.” It would be great if people could post how many calls were made to Congress. I got 10 people to call so far, including myself. The number for Congress is (202)224-3121—just ask to be connected with your particular representative. WE CANNOT WAIT FOR 2008.

#67143 by 911truthdotorg on 4/29 at 10:00 am: “...Depressingly, even if someone like Kucinich or Gravel actually got elected, they’d be taken out just like JFK was. He was the last true Democratic President who wanted to to what was right for the working stiffs in this country….”

Seven Days in May (1964) “.....“I’m suggesting Mr President, there’s a military plot to take over the Government of these United States, next Sunday…” The astounding story of a military plot to take over the United States! The time is 1970 or 1980 or, possibly, tomorrow!

An unpopular U.S. President manages to get a nuclear disarmament treaty through the Senate, but finds that the nation is turning against him. US military leaders plot to overthrow the President because he supports a nuclear disarmament treaty and they fear a Soviet sneak attack….” http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058576/

In comment #67130, in refuting Mad as Hell’s assertion that Sen. Gravel was in left-field in claiming that the military-industrial complex had captured our culture, I cited the combined works of political scientists, C. Wright Mills, Seymour Melman and Carl Boggs.  I would have done well to add the words President Eisenhower left us with at his Farewell Address:

“This conjunction of an immense military establishment and large arms industry is new in the American experience.  The total influence, economic, political, even spiritual, is felt in every city, every statehouse, every office of the federal government….We must not fail to comprehend the grave implications….

“In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence…by the Military Industrial Complex.  The potential for the disasterous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.”

As observed by Jim Hightower in “Thieves in High Places, “The military budget is a massive wealth transfer program from ordinary taxpayers to major corporations, and it has proven easy over the years to wrap this transfer in red, white and blue and have a portion of the American people burst out in a rousing chorus of the national anthem and applaud their own mugging.”

Elsewhere on this Truthdig website, Mad as Hell argued that progressives should abandon the Kucinich campaign and support one of the corporatist charletons (Clinton/Obama/Edwards, take your pick) because the differences merely entail “ideological purity.”  As exposed by Sen. Gravel, the differences are as stark as right and wrong.  We, as a people, can continue obey the punditocracy, acting as passive consumers provided a false choice of selecting one of the elite-favored candidates who, because they have sold-out, receive enormous campaign contributions or we can take serious the duty of active citizenship.  We can insist on examining where candidates stand on issues.

‘08 presidential candidate and regular folk John Doe Dimslow stands alone, until some candidate comes out with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as basic positions, expressly related to current issues. Dimslow stands far ahead of even Kucinich in this regard, as Rahul Mahajan details here: http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/2006-12/23mahajan.cfm

As Dimslow notes:

The first Article of the UDHR may present something of a problem:

“All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.”

...as far as everyone being “endowed with reason and conscience” - well, the official Dems and Reps are living proof of the foolishness of that notion. So I propose that the first Article be modified to read as follows….

http://apragmaticpolicy.wordpress.com/2007/04/29/freedom-equality-dignity-and-other-udhr-follies/

Depressingly, even if someone like Kucinich or Gravel actually got elected, they’d be taken out just like JFK was. He was the last true Democratic President who wanted to to what was right for the working stiffs in this country.

He’d signed Executive Orders to abolish the
Federal Reserve and the CIA.

Several months later, they whacked him.

We’re screwed…..

i had no idea who mr. gravel was before this past week. he is my new favorite nut case. if he wants my vote he needs to advocate bombing washington at a time when both houses are in session and hopefully while cheney is addressing them. even if bush survives he won’t last long.

The suggestion by Mad as Hell that Gravel comes off “like a conspiracy buff” because he took note of the extent to which the military-industrial-complex controls not only our government but our culture reflects the Mad one’s profound ignorance. 

The most poignant warnings about the danger posed by “standing armies” and “the military-industrial-complex” came not from those whom the corporate press would describe as “left-wing conspiracy nuts” but in the farewell addresses of Presidents Washington and Eisenhower.  These generals understood that the military’s authoritarian structure, obsessive need for secrecy and increasing integration into America’s civilian, economic, cultural, scientific and education systems poses a threat to liberty and democracy within the United States.

In 1970 Seymour Melman’s “Pentagon Capitalism” warned that a major portion of the nation’s resources was being misdirected into “parasitic growth.”  The Pentagon system produced products that do not enter the marketplace and cannot be be used for future production.  In 1986 Gore Vidal observed, “The Pentagon is like a black hole; what goes in is forever lost to us, and no new wealth is created.”  A 2006 study by the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute reveals that the U.S. accounts for nearly half of the world’s $1.1 trillion annual military expenditures.  The U.S. spends $1,600 for every American—China, just $31/person.

Melman’s focus was not simply on the billions expended on the military but on the degree to which Pentagon investment acted to deplete scientific and engineering talent from the civilian sector.  “The concentration of skilled brains and hands…on parasitic growth explains why there is deterioration in many facets of life….”

35 years later, in “Imperial Delusions,” Carl Boggs noted, “Since World War II upwards of 70% of all resources devoted to research and development…has come under the auspices of the Pentagon.”  He adds, “The Pentagon [today] stands at the center of a vast web of military, industrial, political and global structures….Its allocation of resources, subsidized by taxpayers, goes well beyond the capacity of ordinary citizens to imagine.  The system is routinely oiled by lobbies, friendly politicians, political action committees…, think tanks, the media, universities, and corporate contractors.” 

Boggs, like Melman and C. Wright Mills, understood not only the enormity of military expenditures but the militaristic impact upon all sectors of American society, noting how the military-industrial-complex “exerts a pervasive ideological influence on the mass media, universities, popular culture, churches and cyberspace, allowing it to become an integral part of the economic, cultural and political life of the nation.”

When using “F” word in public that’s shown Cheney was very low class, absolutely ill-bred, immoral, lack of virtue, impolite, shameless, inaminate…and good for nothing !

Sorry for those who voted for him and his protector GWB.

To louie, louie, #67008

Thats my question too.  Who or what are all of the candidates afraid of?

Ah, I think I remember now.  During the last election Edwards or Dean actually had the gaul to get angry about the Bushies.  Cheney, who used the “F” word publicly, said the Dems needed anger management counciling.  Talk about the kettle calling the pot black…

I remain confounded by the effectivness of the rabid dog/swiftboater tactics of the Bushies.  Why do the American people accept that behavior?

So many questions…so few answers…

I appreciated seeing both Gravel and Kucinich speak their minds in the debate, and hopefully if there is any “banning” in the next one the American public will put forth as much outrage as what was heard about Imus.

I point out again that none! of the candidates gave a hoot when Kucinich pulled out and referenced the Constitution. They have been pointedly ignoring the losses of Constitutional rights completely so far.

It has gotten to the point that the American people are totally ignored in all of this. It’s by and for the candidates and their media cronies. We need to dump the electoral system.

Further, I’m sick of getting spammed by most of them as well.

Banning any candidate in an open debate reflects more fascism. The more I watch the butt-tube media the more I get the sense that the networks and reporters (aka commentators?) think they are personally going to pick the next elections? HUH!

It’s getting disgusting. Even more disgusting is seeing Bill O’Reilly crap ... (about 3am central time on Fox News, local cable, so I don’t know if it was a rerun or not).

I caught it while he was blasting Rosie O’Donnell about leaving the view and his other choice comments about her and other small issues.

Then I got a sickening 30 seconds or so of his masturbating when he started interviewing Ann Coulter.

No kidding! If a child had been in the room, I would have turned off the tube. I flicked off FoxNews fast. Disgusting. Who is going to start censoring these networks for using BBB’s to get the middle aged men as an audience.

(Definition: BBB is blonde (or brunette), blue-eyed (or brown), with b**bies. You get the picture.) But seeing O’Reilly in such a “heightened” state was really disgusting.

Video 1 - Gravel: “Nukes are immoral and have been for (only) the last 50 years”. So, at some stage they were “moral” - when they were actually used in a war - 62 years ago??? Then, in the next war (we’re already in it!), the use of nuclear WMD’s will again be moral???

Video 3 - Gravel: “The military-industrial complex not only controls our government ‘lock, stock and barrel’ but it controls our culture.” So awfully true!!!

Video 4 - Kuchinich: “This country was take to war based on lies….... now, we have to stand for this constitution ...... There is at least one person .....who wants to re-connect America with its goodness .....its greatness ....its highest principles…..” .Sadly, no-one raised their hand to support the impeachment of Cheney.

Rude interviewers from MSNBC - in the debate, kept saying “time is expired” instead of a simple “thank you”. Then, in the last video, scornfully “where have you been for the last 30 years?” and then laughing. No genuine appreciation of those who would speak for freedom or honesty or respect for TRUTH.

Also posted at http://www.truthdig.com/avbooth/item/frontrunners_upstaged_at_democratic_debate/

A Kucinich/Gravel ticket would provide a sensible alternative to the charleton corporatists (Clinton/Obama/Edwards) who masquerade as Democrats by expousing empty platitudes.  Like Mr. Kucinich, Sen. Gravel has had the courage to directly challenge the military/industrial complex.