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|  Truthdig Podcast: ‘Jesus Rode a Donkey’ AuthorPosted on Apr 10, 2007
Linda Seger explains why Jesus’ teachings have more in common with Democrats than Republicans, how Christians have been manipulated into compromising their values and what the Bible really says about homosexuality.
Click here to listen to this and other episodes of the Truthdig podcast. Transcript:James Harris: This is Truthdig. James Harris sitting down with Josh Scheer, and on the phone we have special guest Linda Seger. Linda has just written the title “Jesus Rode a Donkey.” Wait a minute before you begin to laugh or question that title. This book is about why Republicans don’t have the corner on Christ. Linda, tell me about this book, “Jesus Rode a Donkey.” What’s your main message here? Linda Seger: The book is about Christian values from the viewpoint of the Democrats. I wrote it because, particularly before the 2004 election, we kept hearing about values and Christian values and we kept hearing that those are Republican values and that they were represented by this Republican administration. Well, I’m a Christian, and I changed from being a Republican to a Democrat when I was in my late 20s. And I have very specific Christian values that line up for me much better with the Democratic Party. So I thought that there needed to be a book that said, what were those values and how are they biblically based and theologically based? Why are there so many of us who are Christian Democrats instead of Christian Republicans? Harris: That’s a nice synopsis. I’m going to get right to the criticism of your book. Many said that you have used Jesus, as your critics suggest, “to villainize the Republican Party.” Is there any girth to that claim? Seger: There’s always the potential, with a book like this, to be very divisive, no matter what. I’ll tell you what I did do as I was writing it to try to get away from that. I had two Republicans read the book, Republican Christians, one ultraconservative and total, total backer of Bush, a military man. And his job was to help to make sure that it was pretty moderate. He felt it was moderate, and my other Republican reader did, too. But I have certainly gotten some of those letters that said, “Oh, you’re villainizing Republicans.” I really don’t think that I am doing that. I am definitely making some strong statements against this Republican administration and some of their policies. Harris: What’s your strongest statement, would you say, against the Republican Party in this book? Seger: I think there’s not been enough concern about the poor and the middle class; there’s not been enough concern about ecology. And I think these are areas where, as Christians, we are very much called to care about. For instance, ecology. Genesis 2 is so strong about—we are to be good and responsible stewards of the Earth. We are to care and cultivate the gardens, if we want to say it that way. I think that we have not been responsible stewards and that we are asked to do that. So there are these various areas. Whenever possible I always tried to quote Bush and people in the administration very specifically. I tried not to paraphrase it, and one of the things in some of the strong statements, my one reader would look and he would say, “Is that true?” and I’d say, “Yes” and I’d show my sources. And he said, “Well, then you have every right to say that.” He said, “Some people will be offended that you are saying that.” It’s been interesting to me: About half of my Republican readers who write me are very positive about the book. The other half of the Republicans who write me send me hate mail. So it kind of depends. Definitely, though, there is stuff in here to offend if one wants to be offended. Josh Scheer: As we saw with David [Kuo], though, and also a few others, the Republicans were just kind of maybe using the Christians and so maybe they wouldn’t be offended because the Christian ones are going, “We were used by this party to win the elections” and . . . not that you’re talking about being a Democrat and maybe less conservative than something else, but you are talking about Christian values and maybe a different set of values that the Republicans had.
Seger: Here’s what I think is interesting. When I started looking at the documents coming from the National Association of Evangelicals, who tend to be mainly Republican, many of those documents are much more in line with Democratic Party policy. There’s been a shift with the evangelicals. I think it was about only 22 percent of them voted for [2004 presidential candidate John] Kerry. But in some polls now they’re saying 41 percent of them are not happy with the direction that this country is going in with this administration. They have two really interesting documents. One of them is called the “Call to Civic Responsibility,” and much of what they talk about—care for the poor and people with AIDS, better healthcare ... these kind of things—are very much what the Democrats are much more concerned about. They also have a document on global warming and they cannot get consensus on this document, so it’s not official yet, but they actually have a group among the evangelicals that are very concerned with what’s happening with this issue and are, again, much more in line with Democratic policy at this point. My guess is that what’s going to start happening is that Christians, and particularly the evangelicals, who more represent the Republican Christian side, I think we’re going to see a shift. I wouldn’t be surprised if, maybe by the next election, close to half of evangelicals vote for Democrat, half vote for Republican, and then we can get away from this terrible divisiveness and the kind of hatred and the kind of ways churches are lining up behind one party versus the other and, I think, getting overly politicized as a result.
Seger: Yes, yes. No, I don’t doubt their Christianity. I don’t doubt Bush’s Christianity, either. I doubt some of his policies. I doubt some of the values and how those line up with his policies, but I don’t doubt—. You notice I didn’t say Democrats are Christian, either. The book is recognizing that of course many Republicans are Christians, but there are many Democrats who are also, and I think there’s been a lot of vilifying of the Democrats, as if there was no such thing as a Democratic Christian. Of course there’s millions of us out there. Scheer: What about the issues of homosexuality and partial-term abortion, and the death penalty. What do you think about those issues where Democrats have sided not with abortion but being pro-choice, and some Christians do feel that is siding with abortion. Some Democrats, many Democrats, are for the death penalty, which is killing, which is, “Thou shall not kill.” And I don’t know what your positions are on homosexuality. ... Seger: The first thing is, I think abortion is one of the most difficult issues because it is true: The Republican Party has taken this pro-life position and the Democratic Party on the whole has taken pro-choice. But it isn’t quite so neat and clean. There’s a very interesting section of the Democratic Party now called Democrats for Life, and they are working with the pro-choice and saying, “Instead of being overly .... so moralistic, let’s look at being effective. Let’s really try to look at it. How do you stop unwanted pregnancies? That’s the real problem.” The real problem is not who’s for or against abortion, and nobody is for abortion. People are just saying, what do we do with these unwanted pregnancies? What do we do to help people who decide to keep a child but don’t have a lot of money? Like raising minimum wage definitely helps. Having better child care. But another thing that bothers and worries the Democrats is that in places and countries where abortions has been prohibited there’s actually more abortions and that they’ve become more unsafe, and women are dying. And they say, “Obviously, this isn’t very effective to just take a straight, moralistic, absolutely under no circumstances. ...” So the big question has more to do with being effective than with a kind of moral position, because these moral positions are so difficult. I could say, “Yeah, I don’t think we should have abortions, either, but what are our choices? How could we actually be effective?” So I think that’s the big issue, and I know many Christians who say that’s the main reason they vote Republican. Now, the homosexuality issue, I think, has been misinterpreted and become a wedge issue, because the Democratic Party is not for same-sex marriage; it is for equality of rights regardless of religion and race and gender orientation, etc. And so people who have long-term, domestic partnerships—and that could actually be a mother and her son or a father and his grown son ... any number of relationships. They say, “Why don’t we look at these in terms of long-term relationships and how do we give equal rights?” And the other thing the Democrats say, which has generally been a Republican stand, is that this should be a states’ rights issue. Massachusetts has same-sex marriage, many states have same-sex benefits, and in a recent poll in Massachusetts, as people say, it either has made no difference or it’s been a better thing to have same-sex marriage. It’s not hurt the state. It’s not hurt people. I think some of these issues are difficult. There are certainly difficult issues, but I think some of them, like homosexuality, are being made into wedge issues when they shouldn’t be. Scheer: I don’t doubt that it’s being made into a wedge issue. What I’m looking for is also, what’s the Christian take on homosexuality? Jesus—. Seger: There it depends on who you talk to and how you read your Bible. There are only about six verses in the Bible about homosexuality, and if you look at them carefully, they are about degrading sexual behavior, and that they are usually paired with other verses about degrading heterosexual behavior as well. So they’re more about gang rape and these kind of issues. There is no verse in the Bible, really, about being lesbian. There’s a verse in Romans that is interpreted that way. It’s about women doing unnatural acts. But all the commentaries I read said, “unnatural acts” ... the phrase of women, between women, is not there. Unnatural acts in biblical times was any woman who was overly aggressive or assertive. So a prostitute or even someone who took the lead, sexually, or anything like that. And that was a pretty consistent take on that verse. So I looked at those six verses and I thought there’s been a lot of talk, when there are six verses there and there’s thousands about the poor. And I said, aren’t we getting out of balance here? And when I look at those verses, you can interpret them either way, but a lot of them have to do with holiness codes from 3,000 years ago when the Israelites moved into Canaan, and when you put them into context, is this really saying something about loving homosexual relationships now? There doesn’t seem to be anything in the Bible about homosexuality as identity, and the only [citation] there is, the one section in the Bible—it’s pretty controversial, but David and Jonathan had a very close, same-sex love relationship. There is nothing that says whether it was gay or not. It just says they loved each other more than they loved someone of the opposite sex. Scheer: So you’re saying there’s homosexuality in that time, too, and that they were trying to deal with it in the Bible. Seger: Oh, yeah. I don’t think the Bible was trying to deal with it so much. I think anyone who says so much of the Bible is clear about it, I don’t think it is very clear about it. But there clearly has always been homosexuality. You go back to Sappho and her lesbian verses and the early Greeks and the fact that they were talking about it. And, Leviticus. It was being taught to them. The interesting thing about Leviticus is you have a group of Israelites who are moving into foreign land, differentiating themselves. They have to have lots of kids. It was sort of a command, “Have a lot of children because we’re going to be overwhelmed by these other people if we don’t help our own population.” So that very well could be some of the motivation for some of those verses in Leviticus. Scheer: There’s another Christian issue that the Republicans have used. Maybe it’s a wedge issue to you. I don’t know. What about abstinence? Teaching only abstinence-only programs? Seger: Well, here’s what the Democrats say about this. They say we should be teaching abstinence, but we shouldn’t only be teaching abstinence, because when they have looked carefully at what happens with abstinence-only programs, they said when kids have sex they don’t use condoms and they don’t know what they’re doing. They’re not aware of birth control. And so they’re going to have sex anyway. You may as well educate them. You don’t want unwanted pregnancies. So what the Democrats want is they said, “We want a program that’s very thorough, that has abstinence-only, that has sex education, that really educates young people, whatever decision they make. And let’s face it, that their decisions are not always going to be good. At least you’re not going to end up with these unwanted pregnancies.”
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Jump to Comments
By Tony Wicher, May 14, 2007 at 5:57 pm #
Reply to #68312 by Paul on 5/05 at 12:18 am
But the really interesting thing to me is that this same myth, legend or whatever you want to call it is so world-wide and occurs throughout history. Why? I actually believe it is because there really is a holy hpirit, which might have been called by a thousand names in the course of history. I pray to that holy spirit for help and guidance all the time. In Jesus’ name, amen.
Report thisBy Logician, May 6, 2007 at 5:06 pm #
Re#68493 by Jim H. on 5/06:
Hey, as long as you don’t bend over or believe that line: “It is as Gabriel’s trumpet, my boy;” you should be safe, right?
Duly noted, however. He that has been abbreviated shall now be named: Mr. Billy Hart, believer in fairy tales.
I know how you feel, though. I obviously outclass over 99% of the believers I am subjected to and have been confused as one of them when I can quote not only chapter and verse but comparative translations and attendant original stories they are copied from.
Rather like being compared to a chimp, actually, although far more insulting. At least the chimp isn’t trying to boink my son or steal my money…
Which reminds me: have you ever seen any animal other than man worshipping larger than life images of its own species? If that isn’t one big-assed clue I don’t know what is…
Be of good cheer, Jim H. There are realists out here, far and few though we may be. The time is coming soon when open admission of intelligence will endanger one’s life, however. Another Dark Age, that crowning achievement of the filth of christianity, is upon us unless we can fight the mindless off. The trouble is, how do we dumb the message down ENOUGH? I would think we’d run out of crayons after a while…
I know! Instead of American Idol, we’ll have American Idiot! The moron who can believe the most stupid sh*t can take home a self-sterilization kit so his kin can rest easy at night. We’ll make millions! We’ll live as we please, do whatever we want, and take all their money, just like the evangelists!
Trouble is, I just can’t keep a straight face when dealing with mouth-breathing morons that tell me “Jesus Saves!” I usually just laugh and say, “So does Datsun, but you don’t see anyone killing anyone else over it!”
Spoon!
(A gold Palm Leaf with Bronze Oak Leaf cluster to ANYONE on this site who can tell me who uses that epithet when going into battle...)
Report thisBy Jim H., May 6, 2007 at 12:43 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
To: 68245 Logician
Re: “Gee, Mr. H.(?) (BILL HART) how do I fight what was invented by mans imagination?”
Hello Mr.Logic Thank you again!
Report thisThis time, it’s for your welcome discussion about the ‘Babble’ of the “Bible”! And, your additional refutations of disgorgings’ relating to all that hogwash about the illogical “imagination” conjectured, posing of a fairytales, make-believe “Creator-Jesus-God”!
I’m most happy to know that I am in the company of another ‘down-to-earth’ realist. But, PLEASE? PLEASE? when addressing “Hart”, please write\"HART" instead of “Mr.H” so that some of his ilk don’t get the notion that you are addressing Jim H. and take pleasure in believing I am the product of a sudden instant conversion by some proselytizing Evangelical faggot hereabouts?
I thank You.
Ciao, Jim H.
By Hondo, May 5, 2007 at 7:02 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Comment #67114 by masonmyatt is very typical of what I have come to expect from the modern liberaliar. Masonmyatt was responding to my earler comment, which just so happens to be the only comment in this thread that actually addresses the “Jesus Rode a Donkey” podcast. My comment presented hard, cold facts that prove that all of Linda Seger’s “opinions” are actually fiction. Did masonmyatt try to rebut my arguments with facts, logic or reason? No, of course not. Masonmyatt is a liberaliar, and, as such, is incapable factual, logical, reasonable thought. He simply went on an incoherent rant about Karl Rove, the Bush conspiracy, etc. and he called me names. Very intelligent! Just once, I would like to see a liberal actually attempt to make a logical, fact-based argument in defense of their cockamamie beliefs. Oh well. I suspect we’ll see snow cones being sold in Hell before we see a liberal speak the truth!
Report thisBy Bill Hart, May 5, 2007 at 6:57 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
You know I have told you truth , but you have given yourselfs over to the forces of EVIL, YOU only want to cover up any truth , no matter how small , call this Dig Truthcoverup ! YOU CAN still be saved by the BLOOD OF JESUS. Call on him in your day of trouble and he will save you . TIME IS almost run out . CHRIST will return soon to JUDGE ALL THINGS .
Report thisBy Jim H., May 5, 2007 at 1:39 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Re: 68312 by Paul
Hello Paul;
I find your post to be both greatly enlightening, and delightful!
Too bad those ‘robots’ have neither the mental capacity or integrity to take it serious. They will likely come up with a rejoinder somewhat like this: “I knew that” “Jesus told me”. “Those are meant to be ‘tests’ of our faith in ‘Him”! “He Created them in His image”!
But I for one very much appreciate your effort to ‘infuse’ reality into this venue.
Report thisCiao, Jim
By Jim H., May 5, 2007 at 1:37 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Re: 68312 by Paul
Hello Paul;
I find your post to be both greatly enlightening, and delightful!
Too bad those ‘robots’ have neither the mental capacity or integrity to take it serious.
They will likely come up with a rejoinder somewhat like this: “I knew that” “Jesus told me”.
“Those are meant to be ‘tests’ of our faith in ‘Him”! “He Created them in His image”!
But I for one very much appreciate your effort to ‘infuse’ reality into this venue.
Report thisCiao, Jim
By Paul, May 5, 2007 at 12:18 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Sorry Maani. You lose. Plenty of older religions than christianity mirror the Jesus myth, even down to names. let’s see....hmmm Bhudda. 500BC, Born to the virgin Maya (AK Queen of Heaven), miracles and wonders, crucified, three days to the underworld, reborn. Ok that’s one. Who else....Horus, ancient Egypt. Well before christian times. Born December 25 to Isis/Meri, 12 disciples (vaguely astrological don’t you think?) Miracles, walk on water etc etc, also known as “Iusa” (ever becoming son) of Ptah (Father). Crucified, buried, resurrected....
Next we have Mithra. Roman god of sayyy 600BC. Born December 25th, performed the requisite miracles, died (don’t know how this time), buried in a tomb rose three days later…
OK one more. Krishna. Well and truly predates the Jesus story. Birth attended by angels, wise men and shepherds. gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh, lived life of poverty, raised this healed that, hung on a tree between two thieves, died...three days...reappeared, Title of JEZEUS bestowed by followers (means pure essence). Pleny of scholars doubt the existence of Jesus just by dint of the repetitive story alone. And everyone with half a brain knows the Flavius Josephus is a Eusebian fraud because contemporary editions of Josephus have turned up with that section conspicuously lacking.
That’s the whole thing about American christians. you just won’t open a credible book.
Report thisBy Jim H., May 4, 2007 at 7:43 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
RE: #67829 by Douglas Chalmers on 5/02 at 6:41 pm
THIS IS A CRITIQUE BY CHALMERS OF AN EXCERPT OF My, JIM H. POSTING: #67593 by Jim H. on 5/01 at 6:53 PM: and my, (Jim H.) retort to Chalmer’s atrocious errors. Here’s the excerpt:
...Who, or what created your “Creator? And, who, or what created that which, created the who, or what, that created YOUR CREATOR? Or; what, created the creator, that created the creator, that created the creator, that created the creator, that created YOUR CREATOR...?
AND, HERE, IS CHALMERS ERRONEOUS ACERBIC CRITIQUE THAT INCLUDES AT LEAST 7 SEVEN TIMES HE VERY OBVIOUSLY CONTRADICTS HIMSELF!
Chalmers :< “Thats not so much a question but a statement of ignorance."(?)
Report thisJim H. >(1) “not a question”? (This is a lie! and contradiction!)
>(2) “a statement of ignorance”? (This is a lie! and contradiction!)
<"Science now accepts that there was and original creation as well as evolution. That is,
<"the big bang was the beginning” of the creation of the universe and all that is in it
>(3) “ the big bang was the beginning” (This is a lie! WHICH YOU HERE BELOW CONTRADICT!)
<” Unremarkably, that equates with the thousands of years of teachings from all the major religions.”
>(4) (LIE! and contradiction. >Christianity claims ‘all’ was created about 6,ooo years ago!)
>Jim H. excerpt ...ALWAYS WAS! Or, WAS WITHOUT A BEGINNING? which in fact, is a valid >description of the ORIGIN OF NATURE!...
<"This is actually incorrect as far as the creation of what is termed nature is concerned. It did have a >beginning (?) and, as was explained, that was what science calls the big bang. (?)
>(5) (This is a lie! My words cannot be proven untrue!)
<"But, as a mere product of the subsequent evolution which occurred over the billions of years” after the <initial creation of the universe ("the big bang"), “we humans can never know the original cause or that <which created the universe or caused the big bang commencement of creation.”
>(6) You say here-"after the initial creation--- ("the big bang) we--can never know the cause of creation") >(One more lying contradiction!)
>(7)(Admitted Contradiction) i.e. “---we can never know the cause of creation” (!)
>(but) “That is what religion calls the absolute creator ("God")," “In other words, science and religion have <recently arrived at the same conclusion--- “(!) ("---we can never know the cause of creation").
>This last statement sums up your, (Chalmers) whole argument, and verifies the stupid inaccuracy of your denials and numerous contradictions of my realistic, and not disproved assertion!
>First , you say:” <Science now accepts that there was an original creation” Then, you say “after the <initial creation of the universe ("the big bang"), “we humans can never know the original cause of creation “(?) >Isn’t this absurd? And have you no pangs of conscience for your lying insolence and cheap insulting >remarks to one not inflicted as you are with the inability to understand such glaring dichotomy as you >commit here?
>Beginning is never found but keep your ear to the ground Accept the words of a friend theres no beginning >or end Natures Origin for instance is ceaselessness existence
By Bill Hart, May 4, 2007 at 7:22 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
YOU a MIA,, You said it , THE MISSING LINKS <, are all Missing , And your open minds are MISSING IN INACTION ! I Can see truth , you aready fell in the pit , and don’t know you are in HELL ! YOU DO NOT HAVE a BETTER WORLD TO OFFER , MY REAL GOD ( JESUS ) CHANGES PEOPLE FOR BETTER . try as you will . you are a losser , saying I am my own god , you have nothing of value .
Report thisBy Jim H., May 4, 2007 at 6:37 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
RE:#67829 Douglas Chalmers
Report thisTo: Chalmer?
Are you serious? Or, based on your MANY written contradictions enumerated in your posting, must we all accept that you writecomedy for a living?
You were apparently so busy trying to find some method for discrediting my very ‘succinct’ and factual expose’ of your “GODISM’ and it’s “CREATOR” that you stumbled, and repeatedly contradicted yourself regarding your so called “CREATION’! at least SEVEN, 7 times?
The “Big Bang” is just another “CREATED” term for a ‘so called’ nonexistent “CREATION”?
You appear just another of those hopeless nincompoops, that don’t have their heads screwed on right! And, like all those other helpless idiots, you fail to give any support to your asinine assertions including your ‘QUOTING’ or “CITING” the so-called “BIG BANG THEORY”, which is just another conjecture of idiots who wish to give a different name for so-called “God’s Creation”. But if you could read, and had a bit more sense then you openly display here, you would know there is absolutely no more way to prove the so-called “BIG BANG THEORY”, then there is to PROVE your silly idea of a “God Creator”, because, SOMETHING, perhaps another “BIG BANG”, or, a series of minuscule “BANGS”, or something else unknown to us caused the “BIG BANG”! But, as I have said here, that there is absolutely no REASON to believe there ever was a ‘so called’ BEGINNING! Anything you could possibly imagine except the ORIGIN OF NATURE, requires an ‘impetus’, but the endless, ceaslessness of NATURE is ever ongoing! Or prove otherwise!
By Bill Hart, May 4, 2007 at 5:47 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
YOU sound like the Blind leading the Blind, Feel sorry for Fools , you are so great ,you are gods in your own minds. Just don’t fix anything for me ...
Report thisBy Logician, May 4, 2007 at 3:43 pm #
Re# 67584,67589,67591,67814,67820 by Bill Hart:
67584: Gee, Mr. H., how do I fight what was invented by man’s imagination? More fairy tales? No. The truth will do. What is the truth? 67589, the KJV in ANY form, from ANY time, in ANY translation is nothing more than very poorly plagiarized copies of earlier legends and fairy tales. No truth there, so where?
Obviously not 67591: “Hillary still talks to the DEAD, WHY???” What the heck are you babbling about? Are you trying to be allegorical? (have someone look it up for you)
67814: “power blocks.”? Are they anything like Lego blocks? Where are you getting this garbage? Oh, I see: #67820: Please sit down, Mr. H. I have some very bad news for you. It might hurt, so I want you to be sitting down. Here it goes:
Not everything you read on the internet is true. Really. Especially the laughably idiotic crap at that site you reference in #67820. I now understand what you are trying to say. To even dignify any of the stunningly ignorant ranting on that site with a reply is a waste of time. So I’ll address what you stated about Josephus.
#67814 “Hot air does not prove Josephus 100 a.d. & a.c. Sutton 1981 are wrong, I need proofs.” Would you like AC/DC as well? As for Sutton, same as above: to even acknowledge the stupidity is to give it too much legitimacy.
As for Josephus: Go to a library. That’s a building with lots of books in it. Talk to a librarian (the nice woman or man who knows so much) and ask her/him for some LEGITIMATE references on the Testimonium Flaviamum. You will find all the “proofs” you “need”. Legitimate means by respected scholars, not internet cranks who like to type imbecilic conspiracy theories.
For the roots of the compilation of plagiarized fairy tales you call the bible, ask the nice woman or man for research on biblical roots in ancient religions. You’d be surprised how many there are. In fact, there is far MORE evidence of the plagiarisms than there is about Jesus. Which isn’t too hard, really, as there is NO proof ANYONE named Jesus existed during the time of his alleged miraculous doings. Sorry to burst your bubble, but that’s the truth.
Now, Mr. H., have someone read those studies to you and explain all those big words for you. Why, you might actually learn something! You might learn why when you step into a group of people who have learned about the world in which they live and you start babbling like you’re about to drop into a seizure, we naturally think you must be mentally challenged or in desperate need of medication.
Don’t despair, though, Mr. H. Perhaps with time even you may learn to think at least somewhat critically and begin to examine the lies you read on the internet and in the bible and hear from that adulterous hypocrite behind the pulpit you sit in front of every Sunday.
One can only hope…
Report thisBy Douglas Chalmers, May 2, 2007 at 6:41 pm #
#67593 by Jim H. on 5/01 at 6:53 pm: “...Who, or what created your Creator? And, who, or what created that which, created the who, or what, that created YOUR CREATOR? Or; what, created the creator, that created the creator, that created the creator, that created the creator, that created YOUR CREATOR...?”
That’s not so much a question but a statement of ignorance. Science now accepts that there was and original creation as well as evolution. That is, the “big bang” was the beginning of the creation of the universe and all that is in it. Unremarkably, that equates with the thousands of years of teachings from all of the major religions.
“...ALWAYS WAS! Or, WAS WITHOUT A BEGINNING? which in fact, is a valid description of the ORIGIN OF NATURE!...” This is actually incorrect as far as the creation of what is termed “nature” is concerned. It did have a beginning and, as was explained, that was what science calls “the big bang”.
But, as a mere product of the subsequent evolution which occurred over the billions of years after the initial creation of the universe ("the big bang"), we humans can never know the “original cause” or that which created the universe or caused the big bang commencement of creation.
That is what religion calls the absolute creator ("god"). In other words, science and religion have recently arrived at the same conclusion as far as that is concerned. Neither know anything more than that, though. We can only ever understand it as the “original creative force”.
Its not a matter of “who” created in the beginning because this is not a person so much as an active principle beyond human conception. Until humans learn to live in harmony and solve all of their own problems on this Earth, it will not be possible to progress further. Individualization as humans and then “who - he or she” is a result of “its” creation and we have yet to learn WHY we were created.
Report thisBy Bill H., May 2, 2007 at 5:32 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
George H. Scherf(F), jr. was the 41 st. U.S. president (S.S. & Nazi) the other part of power block. SOURCE = http://WWW.proliberty.com/observer/20070405.htm
Report thisBy Bill H., May 2, 2007 at 5:16 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
I am showing you the power blocks . Hot air does not prove Josephus 100 a.d. & a.c. Sutton 1981 are wrong , I need proofs .THE Trilaterals & Council on Foreign Relations are in your face total control power blocks . Next they plan a North American Union , like the E.U..... I pray that Jesus will open eyes at Truthdig to see real truth ... ONLY the Blood of JESUS SAVES....
Report thisBy Jim H., May 1, 2007 at 6:53 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Bill Hart;
Report thisWho, or what created your “Creator”? And, who, or what created that which, created the who, or what, that created ‘YOUR’ “CREATOR”? Or; what, created the creator, that created the creator, that created the creator, that created the creator, that created ‘YOUR’ “CREATOR”?
If you accept what is taught by the criminal charlatan purveyors of that “Godism” you believe in, you therefore believe that your make-believe “God” “ALWAYS WAS”! Or, WAS “WITHOUT A BEGINNING”? which in fact, is a valid description of the “ORIGIN OF NATURE”! And, when a beginning cannot be determined, or found, a ‘so called’ “Creator” is a superflous absurdity! For simple minded people to better comprehend this seeming dichotomy, I suggest you, and they ‘stare at’, and concentrate on a ‘circle’, and, point to a begining! or, a ‘creation’ point! Then, when you ‘give up’, read this:
THE ORIGIN OF NATURE
Beginning is never found but keep an ear to the ground
Accept the word of a friend there’s no beginning or end
Natures origin for instance is ceaselessness Existence
Jim H. 8/29/06
Your “Jesus” is a fairytale character like “Porky Pig” and “Mickey Mouse”! Why are you so “BLOOD” thirsty?
By Bill Hart, May 1, 2007 at 6:27 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
In 1945 F.D.R. said if it happened , we planed it that way , Hillary still talks to the DEAD , WHY ??? yes Civil war , ww1 , ww2 , were all scams ,, all that killing for a big LIE >>............ a one world government will be hell on earth , and Global warming is all a Big lie too , and the big bang is the biggest lie of all time , see you do not have to go to HELL ..... ONLY THE BLOOD OF JESUS saves ...............
Report thisBy Bill HART, May 1, 2007 at 6:14 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
So I WILL say God looks at the inside of man ,, Not what school , or how much money you have ,or power , etc. etc. etc. you see HE is CREATOR and its in his will , or you have fooled yourself , saying I am better than GOds way . A BET read the whole King JAMES BIBLE 1611 , come back and see me , KNOW WHAT ! HE WILL CHANGE YOU !!!!!
Report thisBy Bill Hart, May 1, 2007 at 5:58 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
YOU MISSED IT AGAIN , I am nobody , BUT only the HOLY SPRIT gives truth , you will never see it without GODS help...... HE is in me , and I am in HIM ....Believe on the Lord JESUS and you will be SAVED >>>......GUYS YOU ARE LOST LOST LOST LOST <<<,,,,,,,,,,,REPENT means to do about face , to turn around . YES I TYPE TOO FAST <<<.. BUT ONLY THE BLOOD OF JESUS SAVES,, THE BIBLE SAYS , IN their wisdom THEY BECAME FOOLS >>>.....stop fighting GOD !
Report thisBy Logician, May 1, 2007 at 1:12 am #
Re# 67203,67342,67345,67349,67355 by Bill Hart:
Some questions: 67203 “THUTH STARTS with the Blood of jesus, THUTH COMES from Holy sprit....not SCHOOLS...”
Uh, exactly what are you trying to say? Would that be TRUTH, as opposed to THUTH, or do you just have a really bad lisp? And to what SCHOOLS are you refering? Certainly not the ones where you ‘learned’ spelling and grammer?
67342: Regarding Josephus’ history of the Jews: the passage you are refering to was first inserted into the text of the book by Eusebius, in earlier translations the reference to Jesus was marked IN THE MARGINS in handwriting NOT SIMILAR to the original. I don’t know who YOU are, Bill Hart, but no REPUTABLE scholar considers this anything but a bad, bad forgery by Christian apologists embarrassed by the fact that there are NO references to Jesus ANYWHERE but the fairy tales of the bible.
67349: As for Antony c. Sutton PHD: another conspiracy theorist with wild theories that could conceivably sound good to someone who believes the fairy tales found in the bible. As for any scholar: no dice. Better documentation on the X-Files. Heck of a lot better writing, too.
Really, Mr. Hart. If you want to present your case in a forum of this sort, realize that cretinism is in poor taste and only makes those of us who can spell and use correct grammer think even less of the intellectual quality of those gullible enough to believe in Jesus.
Try using your GI bill and going to school to learn not only spelling and grammer but about the history of one of the worst lies in history: the bible, a compendium of the most poorly plagiarized fairy tales yet to be found. Nothing original in it except the names, presumably to protect the innocent, as Sgt Friday would say.
Report thisBy Douglas Chalmers, April 30, 2007 at 10:35 pm #
#67342 by Bill HART on 4/30 at 4:43 pm: “...Only Blood of JESUS SAVES...”
This may be so to those who understand His sacrifice but it also means that he sacrificed ONCE and once only. The rest of it is up to us - we have to follow by doing our personal best despite the adversity if the sacrifices of others is to still mean anything. Otherwise, we are all lost.
I think you understand that if you were in the armed forces although the last real war that the USA fought in ended in 1945. Sadly, the rest have been invasions and the USSR eventually had its naval base at Cam Ranh Bay anyway. No-one in the West bothers to remember that the Viet Minh freed their country from the French who re-invaded after WW2.
Don’t let’s forget that the French who were there for 100’s of years thought of themselves as Christians. They also believed in “egalite, liberte and fraternate” but for themselves - not for others. Latterly the French went on to nuclear testing in the Pacific at Mururoa in “French” Polynesia which only ended a little more than a decade ago.
By the time you guys arrived, the Vietnamese were already indoctrinated in the worst violence by the Japanese occupation as well as the French colonial occupation. Before that, there was an almost continuous occupation by the empire of China for 1,000 years which they utterly hated.
Report thisBy Bill Hart, April 30, 2007 at 5:55 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
FACT : In 1967 I was Fighting Troops from RED CHINA in mts. of south Vietnam , also working with Former Communist I asked him what were all the nice building we would pass on transport trucks and he Said to me They were schools , and First thing the Communist Did was to KILL ALL SCHOOL TEACHERS , next they Killed all Village leaders and Fimily , this I saw first Hand , even helped dig up 16 year old girl who was Village leaders Child . ONlY THE BLOOD OF JESUS SAVES .......
Report thisBy Bill Hart, April 30, 2007 at 5:37 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
In 1981 Antony c. Sutton PHD. CFR insider Wrote (Trilaterals over Washington ) and other books with full Docs . supporting that the USA craeted and supported both Hitler and the Communist at same time , with end of destroying american freedoms and to create THE ONE WORLD Order and how we were forced into WW1 & WW11 to create it ... ITS full supporting docs in his books , can get old copies on e-bay at times.... ONLY THE BLOOD OF JESUS SAVES , Amerika is LOST !!!!!!!!!
Report thisBy Bill Hart, April 30, 2007 at 5:15 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
MORE HISTORY FACTS Euesbius of Ceasarea (A.D.260-339) wrote of CHRIST & Christians . Supports all of Bible and jesus as being FACT. Accepted as correct history too .. KNOW YOUR FACTS ,, JESUS IS REAL ,only his Blood save ,, I will send facts till you unending ....
Report thisBy Bill HART, April 30, 2007 at 4:43 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Hitler, F.D.R. , Carl Marks , all were heavy into the Occult . Read george orwell (1984) that is Amerika today , It’s all Lies in college , Churches , Government , News media . Read Josephus Roman history of Jews . dated 100 A. D. tells of Christ and Christians . Learn your History .. Only Blood of JESUS SAVES
Report thisBy Jim Hanley, April 30, 2007 at 7:16 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Maani;
Report thisThanks for your offer, but I fear it is not sincere because anyone who is infected with that horrid infectious ‘Plague’ “Godism” is too deeply entrenched in a mind altering state of ‘delerious euphoria’ that locks out any semblance of truth!, and augements attacks on all who questions the reasoning thereof lest they should cause a sudden relapse to reality.
As for Htler? It is enough to know ‘he’ was “baptised a Christian”, and was supported in his efforts to exterminate all Jews, and aethists by no less than “Mussolini”, “The Vatican”, and “The Pope”! I do not have any curiosity about, or reason to delve into either the “history” of “Hitler”, and insane bigoted Christian slaughterers, so I would most certainly not be in the least bit interrested in “Recent history of Cristianity and Hitlers role---in it”!
If you would like to know what I ‘am’ interested in, go to this site: http://www.centerforinquiry.net/cser/ .
And then go to this site: http://www.csicop.org/si/. Ciao, J.H.
By leo, April 30, 2007 at 7:02 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
jesus christ was dead for over 500 yrs. before he became an icon to the christain movement little or nothing is knowen about this person read your history.
Report thisBy Bill Hart, April 29, 2007 at 5:41 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
First we are right , next you get MAD and vote left .. IT’s all a big SCAM ,, IT’s fixed by THE C.F.R. etc . ALL to get to A NEW WORLD ORDER ! IT’S all to take more control each time . Are AMERIKA’S the dumbest people on EARTH or what ? THUTH STARTS with the Blood of jesus , THUTH COMES from Holy sprit......not SCHOOLS ....
Report thisBy Jim H., April 29, 2007 at 12:32 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Maani;
Thanks for your offer, but I fear it is not sincere because anyone who is infected with that horrid infectious ‘Plague’ “Godism” is too deeply entrenched in the mind altered state of ‘delerious euphoria’ that locks out any semblance of truth!, and augements attacks on all who questions the reasoning thereof lest they should cause a sudden relapse to reality.
As for Htler? It is enough to know ‘he’ was “baptised a Christian”, and was supported in his efforts to exterminate all Jews, and aethists by no less than “Mussolini”, “The Vatican”, and “The Pope”! I do not have any curiosity about or reason to delve into either the “history” of Hitler”,or insane bigoted Christian slaughterers,so I would most certainly not be in the least bit interrested in “recent history of Cristianity and Hitlers role---in it”!
Report thisIf you would like to know what I ‘am’ interested in, go to this site: http://www.centerforinquiry.net/cser/ .
And then go to this site: http://www.csicop.org/si/. Ciao, J.H.
By masonmyatt, April 29, 2007 at 3:25 am #
65755 Hondo:
You may have long left this site. If you have, I hope it was to take some time to read a few reputable papers and/or reliable journalists. This site is not for personal attacks or name-calling but for 6 years I have watched our nation and the historical values it has stood for being decimated by Bush, Cheney and their neo-con puppet masters and it is time to stop them and time for you as their sheep-like minion to stop parroting their lies. Did the tax cut mean that much to you---to sell your soul? I ask that specifically because I defy you to name another major piece of legislation advanced by Bush that has even pretended to accomplish anything. Any 10th grader here in Alabama could list a couple dozen major misdeeds, obsfucations, lies, scandals and outright crimes. You could too and you know it.
I was lucky enough to get a more than decent education in a couple of the nation’s good schools. I was lucky to have the wherewithal to do the work and lucky to find the best schools to support my research and to give me the money to do it. But, the truth about this administration is obvious to anyone with a GED who cares to know the truth. No advanced work required.
But, the level of willful ignorance expressed in your simplisitc comments does not present as the result of a less than adequate IQ or of too little education. In fact, your retorts to the other contributers were in lock-step with Rove’s well established talking points on every issue you claim to address. The fact that you can writea complete sentence with adequate punctuation is clear evidence that you are too smart to possibly believe what you are saying. If those were your beliefs, you would have expressed them with at least a modicum of originality. You parroted.
I find it amazing that you right-wingers haven’t the sense to realize as you usurp more and more power into the executive branch that in time, a liberal or a Democrat is going to sit in the Oval Office. Only rhetorically do I ask what you’d think if either of the Clintons had done or will do the precise things you have supported in Bush. Have you so little sense of history that you don’t know the tide will turn. You’d better forget Rove and forget your well remembered talking points and start studying the hisotry of America and its Constitution.
You continued with the practice described by Bill Moyers this week when we saw Bush and his minions repeating over and over again the same bald face lies. They and you are relying on the American penchant for falling for almost any fool notion if they hear it often enough. You know your assertions are untrue and that the truths you are attacking can be documented by easily by anyone who can read.
A year ago I was completely disheartened. Now I have hope. Conservative Republicans are now lining up to attack the war, Bush, Rumsfeld, Gonzales, Rove, Cheney, Libby, DeLay, the various pedophiles, whoremongers, tax cheats, campaign cheats and plain old war criminals that were not long ago the targets of only a few “liberal” Democrats. The president has the tired old, steadfast 32% he has had from the beginning. Check out the geography of his fundamentalist base. It is in the deep red states that are the nation’s poorest, are the lowest in student test scores, the least educated population and who proudly reject most learning since the Age of Reason. You need to think about the imploding stars to which you have hitched your wagon. Or not. Hope you enjoy 8 years of Hillary!
Report thisBy Douglas Chalmers, April 28, 2007 at 3:52 pm #
#66650 by Lefty on 4/26 at 7:32 pm: “… Hitler was a tribalistic, psychopathic murderer...”
Hitler? A psychopath, perhaps, but definitely not “tribalistic” and, like many mass murderers, not even a killer himself in the personal face-to-face sense. Don’t allow the propaganda of the past to color your thinking or you will also be unable to see the same thing as it is happening in the modern day - in the USA!
Some of the more interesting things about Hitler, according to people who either knew him or knew those in his close circle, were that he was a charming host, a vegetarian and inclined to be psychic to the extent that he would often go into trance and be overshadowed by his “demons”.
If there was ever anyone who was/is “tribalistic”, though, its George Bush and his Southern Baptists. I don’t know what they get him bombed up on but I really doubt that he is in any way naturally psychic but you never know with ex-alcoholics - strange things go on in their brains.
Condoleezza Rice is a different matter. Have you seen some of the pics of Hitler in the 1930’s and then compared his eyes with hers when she is in one of those ‘serious’ moods? They are quite similar. Then again, isn’t she in charge of those “secret prisons” they use for “renditioning” (kidnapping and torture)?
Report thisBy Maani, April 28, 2007 at 1:55 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Jim:
I am curious. How much historical material have you read on Hitler? I’m not talking about his own writings, but scholarly works on Hitler, his history, and the recent history of Cristianity and Hitler’s role (or lack thereof) in it?
As for “my” “beloved criminal religious empire,” it may surprise you to know that I have never supported it - in any fashion. I am opposed to what might be called the “organized, mainstream, hierarchical” church, and have been since I became a Christian. So I am actually on your side in many regards.
But I suppose you don’t want or need any allies - especially a “fifth column” in the “enemy camp” - do you?
Peace.
Report thisBy Will.HART, April 27, 2007 at 6:24 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
The real Jesus of the BIBLE did battle with the church leaders of his day , & the deamons , HE never said or did battle with government , He said my FATHERS HOUSE is a house of prayer,, or give to Ceaser what is his money.. SO will someone tell me why Hillary C. talks to the dead to get answers to her problems ?? to be our leader too , she is filled with DEAMONS , Al Gore is a Communist , and fill of big GREEN LIES >......
Report thisBy Jim Hanley, April 27, 2007 at 4:32 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Maani; You say:
Report this(Your words!) “--- anyone can claim --- anything they like---"(!)
(Your words!)
NOW! LOOK IN THE MIRROR, and repeat this: “anyone can claim anything they like”!, and ask yourself why? knowing this, you, the fool reflected in that mirror, insists on mouthing, or writing so many absurd “CLAIMS”?
Then, ask yourself why? you have the utmost gaul, being so unable as you are, to ever face a proven fact that ‘rasps you hide raw and sore’? and proves you a simple minded liar;? why? you ever deny that one of ‘your own’ cadre, compadre, and a fellow traveler, a man who was “Baptized”! into your very own criminal “religious denomination”! why? do you insist that “Hitler was not a Christian”? Isn’t this a bit of wishful thinking? Aren’t you abashed, and too red-faced, and embarrassed to swallow that pill? and face up to the fact that all your silly “---anyone can---” claims” can never, I say never!, eradicate, or alter the indelibly written facts, that a member of your same beloved criminal religious empire showed his true colors, and proved for all time the bigotry that lingers, ‘hibernating’? waiting for another chance to rid the world of multimillions of those who are intelligent enough to see through the ‘smoke-and-mirrors’charlatan swindling, schemes, slavery, and debilitating subservience that are ‘their’ tools, and purpose??? Omega!
By bogi666, April 25, 2007 at 12:22 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Some of the dialog is too sugar coated, especially the comments about whether the Republican Party uses Christianity for political purposes. It’s obvious they do. As for the phony preachers[the Biblical Harlots]with their false doctrines, ie:the rapture, left behind fiction, these are the fornications of the Bible by the Harlots such as; Falwell, Robertson, Dobson,Hagee, Franklin Graham and their ilk. Their congregations are the gathering places[synagogue] of Satan and the members are fools. The Harlot preachers insult, abuse,and recite false doctrines[lies] and call their audiences of fools foul names AND THEN BEG FOR MONEY FROM THOSE THEY HAVE INSULTED, ABUSED AND CALLED FOUL NAMES and the fools give them money. These dynamics are on television and you can bet the Republicans watch them and know that these people are fools. Through faith based initiative, abstinence only until age 29, and other programs they bribe the preachers with taxpayers monies for their acquiescence and support for votes.They are also tax exempt so it’s a sweet deal, government subsidies and no taxes.
Report thisBy Maani, April 24, 2007 at 7:01 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Jim:
You really must learn to govern your passions; they WILL be your undoing. LOL.
As I noted, anyone can claim to be anything they like, as many times and in as many ways as they like. But ACTIONS speak louder than words. And NOTHING Hitler did - not one idea, position, action, approach or philosophy - showed ANY concept of true “Christianity” as that word follows from the life and ministry of the personage known as Jesus (whether or not you believe he existed...LOL).
Indeed, if we look at the main precepts of Jesus’ ministry - love, peace, forgiveness, compassion, humility, patience, charity, selflessness, service, justice, truth - we see that Hitler’s ACTIONS showed that he was the polar opposite in EVERY case: hateful, warlike, unforgiving, lacking compassion, arrogant, impatient, uncharitable, self-involved, egomaniacal, unjust and a liar.
Given this, how can you POSSIBLY suggest that Hitler was a “Christian” in any meaningful sense of the word?
It is said that “a picture is worth a thousand words.” So is an action. And Hitler’s actions show unequivocally that he was NOT a “Christian,” no matter how many speeches he made to the contrary.
Peace.
Report thisBy Douglas Chalmers, April 24, 2007 at 2:29 pm #
#65980 by Maani on 4/23 at 9:06 pm: “...I could claim over and over to be a Serbo-Croatian, but that does not make me one....”
Well, a Serb would never claim to be a Croat and a Croat (Hrvatski) would never claim to be a Serb. Just because the USA bombed Belgrade doesn’t mean that you know anything about them. Same for Vietnam, Korea and Iraq. Where can the US meaningfully (or profitably) express its ignorance next?
“...Hitlers claims of Christianity were as phony as a six-dollar bill. Hitler was an Aryan, and his goal was the creation of a master race of Aryans...”
No, Hitler was an Austrian (like Sarkosy in France is a Hungarian) but not an Aryan. He certainly was helped by what happened to the German DeutscheMark which became worthless between the wars. That could happen to the US dollar soon too.
“...Hitler USED Christianity in order to further his goal of the eradication of the Jews. However, it is absolutely clear that once he had completed that, he would have turned on the Christians next, since they did not fit into his plan for an Aryan master race any more than the Jews did....”
Who is “using” the Southern Baptists and any others dumb enough now? And, now, Jewish support in the US is all very well but US Jews supporting Israel is no longer acceptable since Israel sold military secrets to China (2005).
Saudi Arabia is now being supported by both Britain and the US and Israel will eventually be dumped. If Israel conveniently bombs Iran in the meantime, though, they will be given a second chance.
Of course, that would inevitably be a nuclear attack. The rationale is that the USA can “wash its hands” of attacking Iran itself and of starting yet another war or invasion without UN approval. Any day, now!!!
Report thisBy Jim Hanley, April 24, 2007 at 2:01 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Maani;
Report thisYou LIE! when you utter this ridiculous falslehood: “Hitlers claims of Christianity were as phony as a six-dollar bill.”
THE CONFIRMED AND PROVEN FACTS:
Hitler, baptized and raised as a Catholic! used Evangelical Christians to Massacre Atheists! Hitler using Christianity to Inspire Nazism: “I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.” Adolf Hitler
It is Christians and not international atheists who now stand at the head of Germany. I do not merely talk of Christianity, no, I also profess that I will never ally myself with the parties which destroy Christianity.
Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Stuttgart, February 15, 1933.
Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord. Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Hitler, baptized and raised as a Catholic, grew up knowing the power of religion on average citizen. When he was in power, he henceforth set a goal to make Germany a pure Christian nation. He beleive like Napoleon before him that “religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet.” He schemed to unite every Christian sect in the country, Catholic and Protestant alike. I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so. Adolf Hitler We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few declarations: we have stamped it out. Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered in Berlin, October 24, 1933. It is Christians and not international atheists who now stand at the head of Germany. I do not merely talk of Christianity, no, I also profess that I will never ally myself with the parties which destroy Christianity. Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Stuttgart, February 15, 1933. Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from Christian faith. Adolf Hitler, from a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant. Only a Catholic could unite Germany Goering, Hitler’s adviser. We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out. Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered in Berlin, October 24, 1933. But this, is ALL besides the point! Why do all you Idiots persist in evading the fact that CHRISTIANITY like all other “Religions” is but a useful tool, sneaky charlatans use to mezmerize innocent children and fools like yourself so you help to perpetuate the crimes they are ever comitting against humanity and little kids, who must kneel before them and beg forgiveness for imagined evils the children never committed but are forced to plead for atonement for, from these rats at the risk of being raped! It wasn’t bad enough that most of the innocents were burdened since birth with an Inferiority Complex because: they are born with a so called “Original Sin” according to the “Priests” or “Ministers”.
There is no excuse for you imberciles to continue your criminal actions of knowingly supporting those criminal perverts and their criminal’ Ponzi-racketeering which, by your doing so makes you equally guilty of all their criminal activities!
FACE IT! There NEVER, NEVER, NEVER existed anyone bearing the name of “Jesus Christ”! So stop the bull-crap, and do a bit of research. Don’t buy that pig without seeing it, that might just be a cat in that ‘poke’! And, no ‘ham sandwiches’!
By Maani, April 24, 2007 at 6:06 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Lefty:
Your response will be seen by everyone as the cop-out it is. You clearly have no interest in doing any research of your own, but rather simply engaging in ad hominem and unsupportable attacks. As noted, the numbers I cited for Stalin et al are readily available with a few clicks of the mouse.
Re the “Christian conquest of the Americas,” even if this were true of South/Central America, the number of those killed is included in the 50,000,000.
As for the U.S., “manifest destiny” (the movement of the “white man” from east to west, and the resultant decimation of the Native Americans) was not the result of religion, but economics. Although it is true that the majority of “first Americans” were Christian, this is largely incidental to the matter: even had they been atheists, manifest destiny - the need to increase land and wealth for the growing “white” population - would still have occurred.
Peace.
Report thisBy MAN, April 24, 2007 at 4:02 am #
OUR AMERICAN DREAM OF BEAUTY DOES REFLECT OUR FATHERS SPIRIT.
Report thisIT IS THE COPYCATS WHO COVET THE DREAM THAT ARE HAVING THE NIGHTMARE ON THE OUTSIDE OF THEIR WALLS OF JERICHO.
By Logician, April 23, 2007 at 10:53 pm #
Re#65776 by Maani on 4/22:
Actually, I haven’t answered because I’m still rolling around on the floor over your transparently false claims of rationality in #64778 on 4/18.
Your supposedly vast scientific education didn’t take if you can still believe in a pie-in-the-sky-make-believe-old-white-man who will cast those of us who use our brains into everlasting fire, but who really, really loves us!
Claiming to be of an oh-so-scientifically rational bent, using the science you think verifies the stupidity of religion then decrying the science which shows the laughably stupid claims of christianity clearly demonstrates the vapidity of christian apologetics.
Your inability to reconcile fact with the fiction of religion is even carried over into your personal statements as evidenced by your two posts: #64778 on 4/18 and #65102 on 4/19 where you stated you were through with debating this topic and didn’t want to invite my rant, yet here you are, still stumbling around.
You have presented nothing original, utilized already proven wrong arguments from other sources, and used poor techniques in doing so. No further need to talk with y’all. I can get better entertainment out of a plant.
Oh, yeah, peace. In our time. With honor. And no pulling out! That would be un-American…
Report thisBy Maani, April 23, 2007 at 9:06 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Jim H:
I could claim over and over to be a Serbo-Croatian, but that does not make me one.
Hitler’s claims of Christianity were as phony as a six-dollar bill. Hitler was an Aryan, and his goal was the creation of a “master race” of Aryans - which is a bloodline, not a religion. But there are very few (if any) Christians who are also Aryan. Indeed, as noted, if you study the history of Aryanism, you will find that, if they have any “religion” at all, it is closest to paganism, not Christianity.
As well, you apparently forget your history: among the 5,000,000 non-Jews that Hitler murdered (including gays, blacks, the elderly and the physically and mentally handicapped) were over 3,000,000 Christians. In one instance alone, Hitler had his men round up all the parish priests in Prussia (slightly less than 500). Within two years, over 400 had been murdered; less than 5% of all the parish priests in Prussia survived.
As well, I noted that in a 1936 address to the party faithful, Hitler made the following statement: “It is through the peasantry that we will finally destroy Christianity. One can be a German or a Christian, but not both.”
Hitler USED Christianity in order to further his goal of the eradication of the Jews. However, it is absolutely clear that once he had completed that, he would have turned on the Christians next, since they did not fit into his plan for an Aryan master race any more than the Jews did.
Peace.
Report thisBy Douglas Chalmers, April 23, 2007 at 8:50 pm #
#65776 by Maani on 4/22 at 8:23 pm: “...I note that Jim, Logician, Mason, Lefty, DAG et al have all avoided responding to my question as to the historical and current culpability of atheism and scientism in the insanity and disaster in the world, since they all openly or tacitly seem to believe that ALL of said insanity and disaster is the fault of faith and religion.....”
People like to have something (or someone) to blame for their problems, their fears and their anxieities. If you can’t be in a religion (or aren’t in one), then you have the opportunity of being able to blame a religion of your choice (or all religions) for whatever your problem is.
This is how people save themselves from going insane in this insane world. Thus it is important that people can avail themselves of a whipping horse by “having faith” and blaming others or by “not having faith” and blaming those who do.
Does that sound clever? No? Oh!
Report this