Martha:

just what I expected. Thank You

swanto sez, April 22 at 4:53 pm,

swanto twaddle.

****************

If some people think that this country has to crash to be rebuilt,
the fastest way there would be to put a milf, sarah palin as
trumpies’ v.p.(again second place) and hope they get elected. It
will be just like the tea partiers winning in november and now, in
less than 6 months later people are even more madder than hell
and trying to recall those that can be recalled.

“It would only mean that the country is swirling down the drain.”

But we already knew that. Must we be constantly reminded by the stone crazy clowns on tv? And I’m not talking about SNL.

swanto sez, April 22 at 10:11 pm,

Twaddle.

Martha=

like I suggested earlier, check out any “westernized”
society now or in the past. Liberals are, and always
have been capitalists. They opposed monarchy and have
a strong belief in legal remedies, and are usually
associated with science and reason. While that may be
all well and good, a capitalist cannot be a leftist.

At best, liberals may support specific claims from
workers and other groups and enter into coalitions
with them. This does not make them leftists. They may
enter into “popular front” governments. This does not
make them leftists.

In fact, the more you write, the more I’m sure you
don’t know what a leftist is.

Further, most of the numbers you use are ridiculous.

Left wing right wing, who dog dat, not house broke?

swanto sez, April 22 at 4:53 pm,

Because the political Left is being “left out” of political
representation in the American Politic doesn’t in any way mean
that the 70% majority population isn’t there.  There are
216,121,876 members of the political Left in the United States that
are in the process of becoming aware of their lack of political
representation in the Congresses of the United States in the
making and enforcing of legislated law and order—just because
many are unaware does not in any way make them non-existent. http://www.census.gov/. 

Apparently you didn’t read “The Conservative” by
Emerson that I posted, or you would know that
Liberals have never been on the Right
throughout history, except subjectively.

Liberalism works well with socialized capitalism,
instead of private capitalism which is the epitome
of Conservatism.

Are you pretending that those that represent a
false sense of advantage for their own greedy
benefit on the Right are the Left?

To talk about something, those who are talking
must set a standard that defines the idealism of
their contention when talking about varying
ideals within a proffered idealism, such as the
Left and Liberals as opposed to the
Right and Conservatives.

Your certainty is an idealistic subjective illusion as
a false standard of proof by which you are
defining the Left and Liberals.  If everyone is on
the Right and there is no Left, what are they on
the Right of? If the Right is the opposite of the
Left and the Left does not exist for the Right to
be to the right of, then YOUR logic is that not only
does the Left not exist, but the Right does not
exist either, because you do not allow for the
opposites of Right and Left that defines each
other with regard to their relative standards.

Are you trying to ignore the Left-Right Political
Color Spectrum?  The Left/Right Political Color
Spectrum plainly shows that democratic Liberals
are mild yellows, greens and blues to the Left of
Center and to the Right of Center are the
autocratic Conservative Right’s turquoise,
orange, and the cruel Red EXTREME epitome of
authoritarian tyranny of the majority population
that is happening today.  There are currently no
other colors on the Right other than cruel Red in
the United States today. As far as Liberals on the
Right, they are not allowed to be, and rightly
should not be, and there should be no
Conservatives whatsoever Left of Center, with
the Left and the Right following their own
dialectic frames, instead of those representing
the Left arguing within a Right-Wing dialectical
frame because, like you, they have falsely
decided the Left, the majority population of the
United States, no longer exists. 

Dictatorial standards of behavior of historical
figures that were dictators acting in their own
self serving interests, rather than the greater
and lesser interests of community within society
as a whole can be used and has been used to
falsely define what the ideal of what it is to be
Left and Liberal is, according to the behavior of
the proffered dictator and rulers and thereby
used to set a false standard. 

To define what Left and Liberal is we must look
first at an idealistic standard of what greater and
lesser community interests and benefit are within
a society and determine what it is that serving
those standards of greater and lesser community
interests of society is——this will define the
creative ideal of what it is to be Left and Liberal
as opposed to the self serving and private
interests of the Right and Conservatives.

Martha-

While I do not deny that there may be a few dazed
communists wandering about, as well as some liberal dilettantes who are flattered that their leftist
delusions are chic, there is no longer any
significant leftist (socialist/communist) component
in American politics.

Liberals are, have always been, and will remain on
the right. While it is true that they are moderate,
and will sympathize with workers and other
downtrodden groups, their core beliefs must be
identified with the interests of the bourgeoisie. It
is only correct to refer to this group as being
“left” to explain its relationship to the far-right.

One of the cornerstones of liberalism is capitalism.
You cannot be both a capitalist and a leftist.

In trying to understand the “Arab Spring” our media
has often given us the impression that these events
are unprecedented.

As usual, the MSM is wrong. In order to better
understand these events, I have been reviewing the
events known as “The Revolutions of 1848” which
spread across Europe like wildfire, much as in Africa
and the Middle East today.

If you would take the time to review the “June Days”
of 1848 in Paris, you will see the clearest possible
example of liberal versus leftist, of bourgeois
versus worker. While the liberals opposed monarchy,
they also crushed the workers.

I say none of this to disparage many of the fine
traditions of American liberalism, but because our
conversation cannot progress to a useful outcome
unless we shed the fundamental illusions which frame
our arguments.

Liberals need to come clean and begin an honest
appraisal of who they are. This cannot begin until
they shed the labels and consciousness foisted on
them by the far-right. As long as the American bourgeoisie is charmed to think of themselves as
“leftists” they are simply indulging themselves in
the same kind of “exceptionalism” which describes our
foreign policy.

I would leave you with a question: if one capitalist
political movement favors a stronger and more robust
public sector, and another capitalist political
movement favors a minimal and emaciated public
sector, which movement has the greater intrinsic
interest in expanding the private sector?

swanto sez, April 21 at 9:16 pm,

“Just so long as my main point gets through: THERE IS NO
LEFT.” —swanto sez, April 21 at 9:16 pm

You are deceived or are trying to deceive, because there is
definitely a political Left.  THERE IS A LEFT.

Everything has a left and politics is no different; politics has a
political Left.

The Left and Liberals are representative of and in service to the
greater good of the greater and lesser community of
individuals that make up society as a whole.

The Right and Conservatives are representative of and in service
to the greater good of private interests and selective benefit
that make up a portion of society at or near the top of the societal
pyramid.

“The Conservative” by Ralph Waldo Emerson gives a good account
of the Left/Right dichotomy that stretches all the way back to
Greek antiquity.

http://www.emersoncentral.com/conservative.htm

You will note from “The Conservative”, if you read it, that there is a
tension between creation and conservation, the dichotomy of the
Left and the Right.  Creation is for the benefit of all and
conservation is for the benefit of the few.

The following is the 1st two paragraphs of “The Conservative” by
Ralph Waldo Emerson:

“The two parties which divide the state, the party of Conservatism
and that of Innovation, are very old, and have disputed the
possession of the world ever since it was made. This quarrel is the
subject of civil history. The conservative party established the
reverend hierarchies and monarchies of the most ancient world.
The battle of patrician and plebeian, of parent state and colony, of
old usage and accommodation to new facts, of the rich and the
poor, reappears in all countries and times. The war rages not only
in battle-fields, in national councils, and ecclesiastical synods, but
agitates every man’s bosom with opposing advantages every
hour. On rolls the old world meantime, and now one, now the
other gets the day, and still the fight renews itself as if for the first
time, under new names and hot personalities.

Such an irreconcilable antagonism, of course, must have a
correspondent depth of seat in the human constitution. It is the
opposition of Past and Future, of Memory and Hope, of the
Understanding and the Reason. It is the primal antagonism, the
appearance in trifles of the two poles of nature.” —Ralph
Waldo Emerson

Prisners=

OK, glad you agree on my comments on the left. Just
so long as my main point gets through: THERE IS NO
LEFT.

I don’t intend to make a habit of visiting truthdig
and see no way to post independent thinking here- its
a closed shop.

My e-mail is .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) if you ever want to
continue this discussion or swap ideas. I have some
recent pieces on San Antonio that might interest
you….....

Anyone who wants to be captain of a sinking ship has got to be insane.

Donald Trump is insane. Mad as a hatter. Nuts. But so are most politicians.

Nothing new here.

Since I a card carrying lunatic and sexist, I have to go with Trump, because for some reason I suspect Palin and Bochman are girls!

Anyway I like the birther movement, especially the way Trump personifies and welds together segments of ignorance, almost as well done like the bonding of religion.

One thing that troubles me about Trump,.... I do not know if he can see Russia from his front poach, and I doubt he can gut a Moose while nursing a baby named after one of the seven dwarfs!

Ok Swanto, I agree with your comments on the left. I was more than a little p.o.‘d by
Reeves comments. Anyway, I pick and choose candidates based on what the do, my
hope is that at some point those that have the best interests of this country at heart, will
flee their respective parities and form a new political force, part green part libertarian,
part independent.

prisnersdilema:

I agree with much of your comments. They seem to be
heart-felt and genuine.

Because of my sympathy with your remarks, I would
take small leave to correct some things in your
thinking that I feel are contributing to your
confusion-

You are quite right that the typical article and
comment found on sites like this seem to not
understand real Americans.

This snotty ignorance is quite clear in Mr.Reeve’s
article through his “clever” comment about the
Donalds’s lowness being made clear by his willingness
to go to Boca. These are the kind of snide remarks
that have alienated America from this elitist brand
of liberalism.

However, you then go on to repeat some of the fundamental, in my opinion, mistakes that have you so
confused.

My friend, in mainstream American politics there is
no left. Even our unions are not leftist.

Throughout history, and today in all the “advanced”
world, “Liberal” has been correctly understood to be
right of center. Any detailed examination of the role
of liberals in history will show this clearly. You
cannot be both a liberal and a leftist.

While it may be true that liberals are to the left of
the far-right, this relativity does not make them
leftists in the true sense of the word. Look at any
political party in the westernized world today and
yesterday and you will see that liberals are right of
center. Compare political parties that use the the
term “Liberal” or “Liberal-Democrat” to those that
use the terms “worker”, “socialist” or “social
democrat”.

This is not to say that liberals are always wrong on
issues; on the contrary, they are frequently correct.

Nonetheless, it is a mistake to confuse these utopian
socialists and bourgeois dilettantes with actual
leftists; even if they themselves are flattered to do
so.

Secondly, you are making another fundamental mistake
when you say the American people do not have
representative political parties. Whether you or I
like the parties we have or not, does not change the
fact that many Americans are well represented.

I would suggest that you find greater sufficiency in
yourself. That is, what kind of a political party do
YOU want? If you continue to limit yourself to the
choice of Dems or Republicans, then your frustration
will continue and eventually you will be worn out.

To quote a few erudites:  George Orwell - “The common
man to be controlled must remain an ignorant fanatic,
whose prevailing moods are fear, hatred, adulation,
and orgiastic triumph.”

Machiavelli - “The great majority of mankind is
satisfied with appearances as though they were
realities.”  (It’s a good guess that Trump has this
quote hanging on his office wall.)

(Got to wonder what the above would say about a
country that launches a war centered around the
testimony of a guy other intelligence agencies have
named “Curveball.”)

He’s as good as any other puppet might be.

What you need to know to save your ass.
http://www.gpln.com/tosaveyourass.htm

No the American dream has not evolved into the grotesqueries depicted in the media.
Unfortunately that is one of the problems of the left, the inability to understand or care
about the concerns of Americans trying to raise families, buy homes and support
themselves, while they seem to only be concerned with the fringes of society and selling
out what makes it possible for Americans to do just that to the corporate crooks who run
things so the will have enough cash to succeeded in the next election cycle.

Although the right does a better job of selling itself on these points, it’s even worse when
it comes to making America work for the people, it abandoned them for the plutocracy
40 hers ago.

Currently the people don’t have a political party the represents them, one that won’t say
one thing and do another for cold hard cash.

Both parties suck. They are crooks, liars and thieves.  The people have had enough of
them, one day soon their corrupt reign will be over.

“I think Lewis Black’s take on Trump is worth a watch:”

Many a truth is said in jest!

I think Lewis Black’s take on Trump is worth a watch:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-march-22-2011/back-in-black—-trump-2012

He’s got Reagan’s blarney, Clinton’s libido and plenty of experience with massive debt and bankruptcy. Perfect!

Actually, those of us who know Trump know he would never accept the scrutiny that a presidential candidate receives.  It’s just another scam like his reality show which has nothing to do with reality!

DONALD DUCK OR DONALD TRUMP

What happens when someone like Trump brings up real issues, even the established DC folks have to listen. 

Which is a reflection of what? His arrogance or that of the establishment DC-idiots who listen to him?

No one person is going to create jobs. It is the economy that creates jobs, not presidents - so either Donald Duck or Donald Trump could be PotUS. Whichever, it would not matter.

And when will that happen? When we, the sheeple, decide that our Disposable Income will allow us to start spending seriously again. When will that happen? Nobody knows.

Not Donald Duck and certainly not Donald Trump. The only difference between them is that the latter would like to take the credit for it.

MY POINT

Nobody knows surely when the GDP will kick upwards and start creating jobs, but it is probably underway already. Which is why the candidates will want to be PotUS when it happens - to take credit for it.

As recovery cycles go,  the US could well be down to 5% unemployment from its present 8.8% by next year. If that happens early, Obama is a shoe-in and if later he’s booted out.

“It’s the economy, stupid.” (Bill Clinton via James Carville)

Marxists believe that capitalism is always a struggle between state and private capitalists, or Republicans and Democrats, and that is why ideology swings wildly from one to another and back again.

Until we address the actual structure of capitalism, the production of labor, we will never find stability or justice, equality, and brotherhood.

POWER & CORRUPTION

I am always amazed at the sheer stupidity of some very, very rich and powerful men. Which, I feel, is pretty damn good reason for taxing the piss outta them.

I can’t imagine any redeeming qualities as a counter-argument.

Mind you, I mean not to tax away the accumulation of money completely. But it is time for this nation to decide when does enough become too much in terms of Wealth accumulated.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. (Source of this quotation, here. Meaning that this observation has been around for quite some time.)

Sad thing about Trump, he got Bochman to quit harping on her rendition of the birther song and dance routine. Now Trump is talking about bringing jobs back to America, so even the Democrats may have to go in that direction. 

What happens when someone like Trump brings up real issues, even the established DC folks have to listen.

In the end, we all know it does not matter what they say, because they do what they want anyway.  Look at the Republican Governors, they did not campaign on being destroyers of Unions and firing teachers and what of Obamas Hope and Change, get rid of the lobbiests? Trump can say anything he wants and he can get the other candidates to try and out Trump him and say what he is saying,.....don’t mean they are going to do it!

Wake me up when we hit bottom.

“Could it be that the Republicans are trying to destroy government
and turn the country over to Goldman Sachs and its little mascot,
Trumpie?” —Richard Reeves, Truthdig, Apr 20, 2011

Republicans are trying to destroy government benefit of any kind
to the majority population and they would be delighted to have
Trumpie help them.

Corporations taking welfare from the government at the expense
of the majority population is OK, it only helps maximize the
destruction more quickly, as does costly wars for corporate profit.

This is yet another example of the horrific, seemingly everlasting effects the G.W. Bush presiduncey have had upon the US. Absolutely everyone is now convinced, by W’s example, that absolutely anyone can become president. Trump is just the latest, consider the rest of the GOPer pack of ‘anyone’s’.
A President has to make decisions, and The Donald can’t even make up his mind whether ‘W’ or (in his mind) the possible foreigner who is now our president is ‘The Worst President of All Time’.
One thing is certain. Should ‘god’ have up ‘his’ sleeve one last, massive, joke, to pile on the US in ‘It’s times of troubles’, and The Donald become president, ‘W’ and Obama would lose their Trump standings, and become tied for only ‘Second Place for Worst President of All Time’.