johncp—As far as I know, Conason has always been a Democratic Party shill, the sort of person who gets both a job and a thrill out of faithfully serving the ruling class.  Such people discharge their repressed anger in vicarious enjoyment of the violence perpetrated by their masters.  You can see it all over this web site and the mass media in the glowing, quasi-sexual appreciations of Mr. O’s rubout of bin Laden.  ‘Oh, what a man!’

I thought better of Joe Conason.  What a disappointment.  Conason has actually joined the crowd of clowns, desperately trying to bolster Obama’s image, and, incredibly, using right wing “tough guy” rhetoric to do the job.  Our Pauper in Chief, who has been anxious to find as many outlets as he can, to send the message that he’s such a machismo mutha fucka after all, is making a fool of himself, in his pathetic anxiety over reelection.  With a billion dollars soon to be at his command, from the usual suspects, his apparently mysterious popularity with the major media talking heads, until you simply figure in, who they work for.  People like Conason, approving and apologizing left and right, for him, and, best of all, a republican party bereft of any candidates displaying less than even the minimum of leadership qualities, what the hell is Obama worried about?

Anarcissie, May 8 at 7:33 pm:
ardee—So why do the tasks you mention require the use of force?  This isn’t a rhetorical question.

ardee, May 10 at 2:58 am
Where do you find my support for force in making changes? I use the strategies of Gandhi and King as examples of how change can be affected through nonviolence.

Where you said, for instance, ‘The state should be an extension of the will of the people….  I believe societies need governance, especially ones with a population of 300 million. With all due respect to Emma Goldman, and you as well, I see no alternative to government, thus I think we should all work to make our own free of its poisons.’  But the fundamental fact of the state is coercion, through physical force, the threat of force, terror, imprisonment and so forth.  There can be no state free of this poison.

Gandhi and King were activists, not philosophers.  For both of them the use of force was a given, the often desperate context in which they had to operate.  Their thought and experience doesn’t preclude our asking whether our society should be organized through the use of force, as it is at present in the state; and if so, why.

JDmysticDJ, May 10 at 9:23 am,

But I might get President Obama elected in 2012.

As the truth slowly comes out, or is concealed for National Security reasons, the conspiracy theories will abound, and the criticisms will come from all sides. The U.S., President Obama, and “We the People” will be accused, discredited, and subject to further attacks. This latest event proves nothing, accomplishes nothing, and absolves nothing.

inspired1, May 10 at 5:46 am,

Forgive me for calling you silly.  In principle, I actually agree with
what you said in your May 9 at 7:04 pm post.

I do not think it made the country safer killing Osama bin Laden, it
would have been better to have had a trial, as I am of the opinion
that more people were involved in that attack than Osama bin
Laden’s bunch, there had to have been help from inside our
country for such an elaborate bomb placement within those
buildings.

I can not say that I would not have done the same thing as
President Obama did, since the man was wanted by the CIA dead
or alive and somehow alluded the USA for 9 years.  I may have
made the same decision to end the chase.  I would like to think I
wouldn’t, but I have not seen the CIA’s evidence.  If there was no
evidence of the guilt of this man, President Obama will have to live
with it.  I really wish that President Obama would be more
concerned about finding the underlying causes of the attack and
dealing responsibly with the causal role of the United States
relative to all aspects of the attack, and there are many. 

In practice, it is a process to work our way out of the darkness of
chaos into the causal definition of the light.

It is necessary to take a gestalt perception of principle and
practice and not get lost in either principle or practice as
unsublated unities defined solely by idealistic definition of self
serving sophistry does not serve our country well as a whole.

@ MarthaA, May 9 at 8:18 pm

While stating that what I wrote as “silly” and acting as a Good Obamatron, you
seem to have simply forgotten to relate to the the other comments I made dealing
with who the TRUE enemies of participatory democracy are and Really defending
courageously the Security of this nation by delivering the goods on healthcare and
going after phony “bankers” instead of giving them the keys to the mine.

Anarcissie, May 8 at 7:33 pm Link to this comment

ardee—So why do the tasks you mention require the use of force?  This isn’t a rhetorical question.

Where do you find my support for force in making changes? I use the strategies of Gandhi and King as examples of how change can be affected through nonviolence.

Or do you yourself posit that only by use of force can change be accomplished?

The statement should read dumb enough.
All the agressions that America has carried out since the end of World War 2 have slowly started to come back to haunt you, along with the so called “friends” in the West.
The trouble with the original statement is that American Presidents just do not get it. Aggression brings repercussions as has happened over this recent period, and crying foul when it happens does not do those reacting to it the credit that is due to them, which is ‘you hit me, then I will hit you back’.
Surely, it is time to stop and for someone to begin the difficult process of negotiations somewhere along the line, otherwise we are stuck with a scenario of perpetual war.

Is this the kind of “we’re-as-tough-as-Seal-Team-6”
tripe we can expect from the New Webby-winning
Truthdig?

Even if that was Osama bin Laden (highly doubtful)
that we entered sovereign territory to assassinate
(an act of war), all we really accomplished is the
killing of an elderly, nameless fellow who had no
connection to 9/11 by a team of conscious-less,
arrested-adolescent killing machines.

Not a dimes worth of difference between the
Deathocrats & the Republimurderers.

inspired1, May 9 at 7:04 pm,

Silly person, what President Obama did is what he promised and
what Bush said he was going to do, before he forgot about it, like a
good Republican.

So, mister Conason, do you really think that killing an old man (a bit of “collateral damage” perhaps), then dumping his remains in the ocean has improved our national security one iota? If so, I think you are in the wrong business.

Why not just shred the Constitution once and for all, give up on the entire silly
notion of trials, evidence, lawyers, judges and juries which are just for wimps
anyway, eh, Joe?

And answer me this: why should you give a flying fudgecicle whether the
Republicans now have a notion of a “tough” Democrat in charge of our security?
Has it ever mattered what they “think” (I’m being kind here). They will STILL
attack any measure that smacks of workers’ rights or fairness in Health or
Education. Why are YOU worrying about THEIR opinion?

Where, by the way was the toughness or tough-mindedness about our oh-so-
precious Security when Wall Street High Rollers and others diddled and danced
with our Treasury and mortgages, when BP killed folks offshore and into the
future, and AT&T listened in on our citizens? Hmmm…?

I am soooo sick of people like you making fun of our perceptions and intelligence!

mc.murphy, May 9 at 12:56 am,

So, are you saying you are one of the New Democrats that represent
the 20% conservative division from the majority population? or what?

If not, can you explain how you think Chomsky represents the
majority population as a class and culture that needs political
representation?

If you do not think there is a New Class you
should read Barbara Ehrenreich academic work
on the separation in “Fear of Falling”, as she has
represented the majority population and the
separation in her academic works more than
anyone of which I am aware.

Neoliberals everywhere in Washington must be laughing their ***** off. There is just no end to how many times you can bamboozle the Amerikan public. Obama is going to tell me that out of respect for Muslim law, Osama’s body had to be buried in the sea 24 hours after his death ? I suppose the million or so Muslims we slaughtered in Iraq and the waterboarding at Gitmo also displays that deep concern.
PS: Conason is a Democratic Party hack.And he’s about as Progressive as Al Capone.

MarthaA, May 9 at 12:29

Gotcha, thanks!

mc.murphy, May 8 at 9:16 pm,

Noam Chomsky is an academic of the Professional Middle Class
aristocratic Left.  Chomsky is not one of the 70% majority common
population that needs political representation.

There is a difference between the 70% majority common
population Left and the 20% Professional Academic New Class of
the aristocratic New Left that divided out of the common
population and formed a new middle class represented by the
Republican led conservative DLC, Democratic Leadership Council
http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Democratic_Leadership_Council  that is currently keeping a low
profile as New Democrats, the Right-Wing of the Democratic Party.

I am not saying Chomsky is in any way involved with the DLC, I
doubt that he is, but he is not a member of the majority common
population.

Gary Mont:

“However, once a poster becomes an irritant without any merit, they are simply ignored as background noise as far as responses go.”

You are hardly ignoring my comments, you cannot stop talking about them.

“I still read their posts because often they provide a touch of much needed humor to my day, but I also know that to respond in an intelligent manner is an exercise in futility”

Ha ha ha ha ha! you crack me up, Gary Mont.

Gary Mont:

“I will usually respond once or twice to posters who are apparently just Trolls, such as Virginia777, in the hopes of getting them to actually post something worth reading.”

I am not a troll.

Why so touchy, Gary Mont, are you one?

BTW,

Is Noam Chomsky of the Left, or of the Right?

MarthaA, May 8 at 8:54

so much for intelligence on the left….

you don’t need to reply, you’ve got it all figured—good luck.

mc.murphy, May 8 at 8:48 pm,

There is no such thing as a Libertarian Socialist on the Left.  I only
represent the Left, the Majority Population.  I explained that
Libertarian Socialist would be on the Right and have nothing
whatsoever to do with the Left, whatever Wiki says.

MarthaA, May 8 at 8:41

My question to you still stands.

Can you guess which cohort is most reliably on that side of these
issues? In fact, can you name it without fainting?

I don’t need a paragraph, just a one word answer.

“There is no such thing as a Libertarian Socialist”

There isn’t eh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism

mc.murphy, May 8 at 6:52 pm,

Few of the 70% are aware they are the Majority Population, which
is the problem, and continuing the deception is not the solution, if
political representation for the Majority Population is the goal—
and that is my goal. 

There is no such thing as a Libertarian Socialist, as Libertarians are
farther Right than the Republicans, therefore a Libertarian Socialist
would be benefiting their own class and culture with socialism, just
not the majority population, which is what the Republicans are
doing already.  If you are also an anarchist, are you a creative
anarchist or a destructive anarchist?

Conservative Right-Wing Republicans always want wars for profit
and Wall Street is and always has been their god.

ardee—So why do the tasks you mention require the use of force?  This isn’t a rhetorical question.

ardee—The problem with accepting the widespread notion that violence is endemic to the human species and that, therefore, the state is an inevitable development, is that the increasing powers of technology and the industrial economy are putting more and more physical power into the hands of people, including ordinary people.

I guess I should apologize, Anarcissie for leaving my reasons for the need for government so vague as to cause you to leap to an incorrect conclusion. I do not believe that people are necessarily prone to violence unless led there by an unscrupulous and greedy few. There are enough examples of societies in which violence is anathema to make that point I think.

My reasons for citing a need for government are much more prosaic in fact. In large societies organization is necessary, roads must be built and maintained, those in need must be cared for, education cannot simply be left to the dictates of a myriad of individual opinions as some would invariably suffer poorer educational opportunities than others. I am certain that most here can visualize a great list of reasons why we need both central and local governments.

Perhaps, in an agrarian society of a small number of folks things would get done by common consensus in town squares or in someones barn perhaps, but in a nation a lack of government is a utopians dream and as impractical as it gets I think.

By MarthaA, May 8 at 6:09 pm

wow, Martha, your expose is verging on word salad.

could you tell me which party the 70% of ‘lefties’ vote for?

since the country is more or less evenly divided it would follow that 20% do not
see themselves as lefties. Much like a lot of overweight people do not see
themselves as fat.

Telling either cohort that they are left for the first, and fat for the second is
hardly the method by which to gain their approval.

Drop the labels, talk issues, and you’ll be holding a winning hand. Keep on
insulting the cohort you’d like to enlighten and you will see a civil war rather
than the counter-revolution which this country needs.

i consider myself somewhere in the vicinity of libertarian-socialism, with a good
dose of ‘anarcho’ in it. 

Wars and Wall Street is how I prioritize. Corporate Lemon Socialism, come right
on their heels. Can you guess which cohort is most reliably on that side of these
issues? In fact, can you name it without fainting?

mc.murphy, May 8 at 3:41 pm,

Conservative Republican propaganda and Left-Wing cooperation
has pretty much facilitated the complete destruction and subdued
the power of the political Left, there is no doubt about it, but that
doesn’t mean the Left isn’t there, they are just unaware of their
power.

Over the past 40 years leadership of the Left has allowed itself to
be sublated into Right-Wing dialectic, rather than to operate
independent of Right-Wing dialectical framing by way of defining
Left-Wing dialog by Left-Wing dialectic; this type of activity by the
Left’s leadership from the time of Nixon to the present is complicit
cooperation by New Class leadership of the Left to present a false
sense of advantage to the Left’s population that pandering to the
dialectic of the Right is representation of the Left, when in fact it is
nothing more than Vichy (false) Democrat representation of the
Left in service to the Right.

In fact, the Left’s population is not represented in the making and
enforcing of legislated law and order in the United States by the
Democratic and Republican Party Duopoly, and the Left’s majority
population, as the American Populace, is trying to get sufficient
awareness of the lack of political representation of the Left’s
population, so that the Left’s population, that is the American
Populace, will agitate and demonstrate in necessary civil
disobedience that will eliminate false representation of the Left
that provides false advantage, and result in actual political
representation in the making and enforcing of legislated law and
order that is in the best interests of the Left as a whole.

If you are a member of the majority population that is the Left,
YOU are living in a bubble, if you think not recognizing the class
and culture of the Left will keep the Left out of slavery.  The only
thing that will keep the Left’s population out of slavery is the
recognition of their class and culture and for that class and culture
to organize and demand representation in the making and
enforcing of legislated law and order in the Congresses of the
United States for the common population’s American Populace
Class and Culture, a 70% majority population, so that the whole
class and culture will not be following other classes and cultures
laws, that they have no part in the making, that are disparaging
their children and forcing them into war and slavery.

MarthaA, May 8 at 3:17

“The destruction of the political Left was an insidious process and it
will be a process reclaiming the political Left.  It took 40 years for
the Republicans to corrupt the political system and it will take at
least 40 years to erase their corruption.”

The Republicans destroyed the Left???

While you are correctly identifying the majority of the population as being at heart
‘progressive’, your carping on the L/R divide is merely divisive and unhelpful.

I’d suggest you drop these misleading labels, which only serve the PTB to further
divide the 70% whose identities have been massaged into their subconscious from
cradle onwards.

But if you believe that this economy/status quo will survive another 5, let alone 40
years, you are living in a bubble.

http://mosquitocloud.net/

ardee: To respond is to take up needless space, space that could be put to far better use.

Everyone gets as much rope as they require to hang themselves. I make no exceptions to this rule.

I try and respond to the post, not the person, as the post can easily be written by one or more people and these need not be the same people day to day - the true beauty of the web.

I will usually respond once or twice to posters who are apparently just Trolls, such as Virginia777, in the hopes of getting them to actually post something worth reading.

However, once a poster becomes an irritant without any merit, they are simply ignored as background noise as far as responses go.

I still read their posts because often they provide a touch of much needed humor to my day, but I also know that to respond in an intelligent manner is an exercise in futility - occassionally they will post something concerning a topic I wish to discuss and I’ll use their post as a launch pad for that topic.

MartaA has some strange ideas that simply have no counterparts in the world that I’m familiar with, and I’m simply terrible at discussions about Rigelians, or Etheric Elves, let alone their political values, so I don’t try.

mc.murphy, May 8 at 2:01 pm,

That would simplify politics, but politics is not that
simple.  Every politician in DC came from one of
the states, and the DLC has corrupted state
politics even down to the local level, so that even
people drawing welfare think they are
conservative Republicans. 

The destruction of the political Left was an insidious process and it
will be a process reclaiming the political Left.  It took 40 years for
the Republicans to corrupt the political system and it will take at
least 40 years to erase their corruption.

The 1st step in erasing the conservative corruption is learning that
there is a political Liberal Left and a political Conservative Right
and that the political Liberal Left is the common population who
are a class and culture that is the 70% majority population of the
United States.  The rest of the common population has chosen to
be aristocratic and represent their own class and culture in a New
Democrat Class in competition with the 10% Corporate Elite
Capitalist’s Aristocratic class and culture, and no one represents
the common population class and culture and haven’t since the
1980’s.  It is time for the 70% Majority Common Population of the
United States, the Liberal Left,  to realize they are not being
represented politically and demand political representation of their
majority common population class and culture in the making and
enforcing of legislated law and order in the Congresses of the
United States.

MarthaA, May 8 at 1:38 pm

The outsourcing of jobs started with Bubba’s NAFTA.

We have an illegitimate government, period.

When discussing Reps, and Dems the distinction needs to be drawn between
R(DC), D(DC) and the public, which is nothing like their respective representatives
in DC.

Blanket labeling is counterproductive and fundamentally flawed.

mc.murphy, May 8 at 12:12 pm,

President Obama represents the Conservative and/or Moderate
Academic Professional Middle Class and Culture, which doesn’t
include the majority common population’s class and culture.  The
Conservative and/or Moderate Academic Professional Middle Class
and Culture divided out of the majority common population and
represent themselves as a “new class” apart from the majority
common population’s class and culture, which happened in the
1980’s when the Republican led DLC, Democratic Leadership
Council was formed as their representatives and the majority
population became unrepresented.  All the deregulation of the
Right-Wing began happening at that time and has been consistent
since that time to the present.  It was President Obama that
signed the Republicans Korean Free Trade
Agreement that is now causing more
majority population jobs to be outsourced.

MarthaA

“When so many people in the country think they are the
conservative war party, it behooves the Democrats to prove they
are not the party that has let the leader of Al Qaeda…..”

the logic behind this statement, (even if it was true) because of all the venom
spat into the direction of conservatives by MA, is so convoluted that I worry
about MA’s sanity. it, in short, seems to imply that we on the left (Obama is not)
should act in a manner as to placate the conservative’s insanities by acting
insane, or some such….?

What a buncha’ crock.

http://mosquitocloud.net/

MarthaA, you wrote:
When so many people in the country think they are the
conservative war party, it behooves the Democrats to prove they
are not the party that has let the leader of Al Qaeda that
supposedly according to the CIA and the Bush administration
attacked the USA on 9/11/01 and continues with terrorist
threats.”

Your premise is untrue. The majority of people in this country disapprove of the war, whether those wars are waged to “get” Obama or for any other reason. It does not behoove the Democrats to pretend they are the War Party, just as it did not work to their advantage to become the “cut taxes on the rich” party, or the “fiscal austerity on the backs of the middle class” party, or any other faux party they’ve morphed into under President “A Lie is as Good as the Truth” Obama.

The US is so disingenuous on the subject of terrorist dictators, not to mention its bedding down with them , this orgasm of nationalistic self-approbation is more of the same - OBL’s proclaimed death is trite in comparison to the path of carnage it justified and also provoked.

MarthaA—You would have to give me a description of your creative-destructive framework before I could begin to answer your question.  In any case, I am probably a mixed, very complicated bag, like most people.  On the other hand, many of my ideas are simple-minded.  And I would prefer to work on simpler material than personalities, especially my own.  However, you may call me whatever you like.

ardee—The problem with accepting the widespread notion that violence is endemic to the human species and that, therefore, the state is an inevitable development, is that the increasing powers of technology and the industrial economy are putting more and more physical power into the hands of people, including ordinary people.  A continuing and ever-intensifying competition for political power will obviously lead to ever greater acts of destruction, until we reach the point where human survival will be called into question; indeed, it seems that self-annihilation will become inevitable.  While the final Götterdämmerung might be thrilling, the silence which would follow seems boring to me; so I choose to take the long shot of promoting a different social order which excludes the legitimacy of the use of violence.  Or, I should say, trying to promote the beginning of a conversation on what such a social order might look like.

Gary Mont, May 8 at 2:44 am

Well stated I must note. I think that voyage of which you speak is never ending. At least you missed the time when s/he posted as two distinct people, Martha and Thomas. While claiming to be brother and sister they posted exactly the same, down to phrasing, emboldened words and phrases, absolutely identical in fact. A rather clumsy attempt to be two in one, thus the endless voyage reference.

Crazy is too kind a word for this one. I no longer read his/her/its efforts frankly and suggest, respectfully, that you consider turbo scrolling past his/her names as well. To respond is to take up needless space, space that could be put to far better use.

Stay tuned for the usual response, ranting about right wing trolls and, even, bullets as s/he has in the past.

Conason is typical of what’s wrong with the Democratic Party. And he’s a perfect example of why I cringe if anyone refers to me as a “liberal.”

MarthaA: “You need to learn the difference between the Left and the Right.

Well I’ve re-read your post in the other blog about Right and Left and I think I finally figured out what your mind has decided is right and left in America.

In a nutshell….

You think that all the poor people and all the middle class people combined, no matter how they might vote, or even if they don’t vote at all, are the Great Common Majority and are all Lefties, even though most of them don’t know it.

So the Left is composed of 90% of the population

And you think that as soon as anyone gets rich like all the bankers and lawyers and tycoons and billioniares, regardless of how they vote, they automatically become the rightie elite.

So the Right is composed of 10% of the population.

If you’re wondering why people have a hard time comprehending your comments, its because they very likely couldn’t figure out what the hell you were trying to say.

And because I’m sure this isn’t how it works on earth, I’m going to have to just let you float on this subject till your space ship lands.

By Virginia777, May 7 at 11:06 pm

It wouldn’t hurt to understand something about the fine art of manufacturing
consent. And the consent that is being manufactured for us all has been
accounted for in this little exchange: 

“The aide said that guys like me were “in what we call the reality-based
community,” which he defined as people who “believe that solutions emerge
from your judicious study of discernible reality.” ... “That’s not the way the
world really works anymore,” he continued. “We’re an empire now, and when we
act, we create our own reality. And while you’re studying that reality—
judiciously, as you will—we’ll act again, creating other new realities, which you
can study too, and that’s how things will sort out. We’re history’s actors…and
you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.”

Don’t think that lefty/progressive luminaries the likes of Sheer, Krugman, Thom
Hartman, etc., are ultimately not just left flank gatekeepers for the status quo.

Open up your mind, awaken your curiosity, and venture outside your comfort
zone, which us nothing more than a trap. Liberate and reaffirm your
independence and curiosity. There is a a rich and vibrant left to your left.
Explore it.

Gary Mont:

“These articles could have been written by the Bush PR team they’re so pathetically pseudo-patriotic… stomach turning tripe!”

*eye roll, shakes head*

What an exaggeration.

Remind me again why we fought Iraq to the wall, and then took on the annihilaiton of Afghanistan, along with supporting various dictators in the oil countries for a decade (who are now busy killing their own people).  Tell me how we had to kill thousands of innocent bystanders and lose thousands of our own young people, when a couple helicopters full of Seals could kill Bin Laden and a few assorted bystanders in a half hour or so, holed up in an estate in Pakistan.

What’s it all about, Merriweather?
Whose on first, Wiseacres?

Gary Mont, May 7 at 8:24 pm,

I do not think Osama should have been killed, but I doubt if President
Obama had anything at all to do with the actual killing of Osama, but
the CIA did.

You need to learn the difference between the Left and the Right.

I’m getting the feeling that TruthDig’s recent spate of technical difficulties over the last few weeks was really caused by installing the new CIA computer for the new CIA watchdog into TruthDig’s main office system.

These articles could have been written by the Bush PR team they’re so pathetically pseudo-patriotic… stomach turning tripe!

We send 10 marines to kill old man in dialysis machine, so now we tough good guys. Booyah!!

Oh well, maybe its time to move along again…

Morpheus, May 7 at 6:36 pm,

I examined your revolution really well and all I found was that the
people who join will just get put in jail.  There is nothing about
representation of the majority population as a class and culture and
nothing about withdrawal from the system as it is today.  A
revolution can not be done within the current system.

We’ve become so bankrupt that we have no choice but to celebrate our failures and under achievements. Ben Laden was an old man by the time we found him a decade later. Lets celebrate when we solve our real problems like putting people to work or our deficit problems.

Wake up America! It’s time… “THE REVOLUTION HAS STARTED”
Read “Common Sense 3.1” at ( http://www.revolution2.osixs.org )

“Spread the News”

Anarcissie, May 7 at 7:50 am & Anarcissie, May 7 at 5:42 pm,

“I am an anarchist, not an advocate of third or other larger-ordinal
parties.” —Anarcissie, May 7 at 7:50 am

You state you are an anarchist.  Would you please let us know what
type of anarchist you are, a creative anarchist or a destructive
anarchist?  I have ask you before and you have avoided answering,
but it should not be that hard to answer, since there are only two
types of anarchists.

JDmysticDJ—You will recall the supposed exchange between James Dean (or Elvis Presley, or someone like that) and a reporter:

‘What are you rebelling against?’

‘Whaddaya got?’

I don’t see much point in contributing to a discussion to agree with things already said, or obvious.

However, I have offered positive suggestions in the past.  The fact that you aren’t aware of them implies either poor exposition on my part of poor comprehension on yours, or maybe a combination of the two.

oddsox—I was thinking that maybe the predominant model of employment—40 hours per week in a rather rigidly programmed job—is becoming obsolete even within the liberal capitalist framework.  If there is not enough engaged capital to provide nearly full employment, it ought to be possible to spread the capital and the work it creates around more evenly with, say, a 32- or 24-hour work week.  Or maybe that’s just a naive view.  I’m not sure why people have been seemingly locked to 40 hours a week since the 8-hour day became standard early in the 20th century.  It may have something to do with ideal (idol?) of maximizing production-consumption, which is another thing that ought to be reconsidered.

thethirdman, May 7 at 12:22 pm

This forum has a personal message feature that allows one to have a private conversation.

Anarcissie, May 7 at 7:50 am

ardee—The basic function of the state is to produce and structure violence in the interests of its ruling class.

One cannot assail your logic that this state ,in this particular incarnation, does exactly what you state. Nevertheless I do not agree that all states, all the time, are so inclined.

The state should be an extension of the will of the people, that it is other is more a function of apathy, ennui and lack of participation, with a generous sprinkling of the machinations of the very wealthy that leads to the aforementioned three poisonous ingredients.

I believe societies need governance, especially ones with a population of 300 million. With all due respect to Emma Goldman, and you as well, I see no alternative to government, thus I think we should all work to make our own free of its poisons.

Conasan, what an example of all that is wrong with the new Republican (Democrat?) Party.  Yes, we should aspire to be approved of by Karl Rove?  Yes, Obama can murder and maim with the best of Republicans?  Right, and I say fuck the Democrat Party as this is what they have become, yes the new Republicans.

To see this bullshit being published, let alone read, is depressing to no end.

The only hope left is that this whole capitalist edifice, under the protectorate of
both Parties, will collapse under it’s own weight of greed upon the heads of the
snookered American voters, and that they will finally just rise the fuck up, and
alongside their global brethren put a stake into this best worst system of
economic organization, aimed solely to extract rent and finite natural resources
for the benefit of .1% of well placed sociopaths.

The Three Amigos, Bernanke, Geithner; the Presidential Administrations appoint
them are a constant across the faux red/blue divide. There are no good guys in
our government, not even the handful of ‘good ones’, are anything more than
well meaning jelly-spined enablers.

This site is worse than not helpful. It merely proposes to treat cancer by
clipping ingrown, red polished toenails. Good luck with that, it’s precisely the
method the PTB uses to keep the status quo entrenched, and Truthdig is a
important playa in this kabuki of the absurdly macabre.

http://mosquitocloud.net/chomsky-on-the-global-assault/

madisolation, May 7 at 4:47 am,

When so many people in the country think they are the
conservative war party, it behooves the Democrats to prove they
are not the party that has let the leader of Al Qaeda that
supposedly according to the CIA and the Bush administration
attacked the USA on 9/11/01 and continues with terrorist
threats. 

ardee, It is true that Osama bin Laden at first said he had nothing
at all to do with 9/11, but that was ignored by the CIA, the military
and the Bush administration.  Bush and his administration claimed
many times that Osama bin Laden did have something to do with
9/11 and it is the Bush administration’s claims that got Osama bin
Laden killed by the Obama administration.

The CIA who was in charge of the Navy Seals wanted Osama bin
Laden killed instead of being put on trial or he would be alive
today.  It was the CIA feeding the Bush administration all the
stories about bin Laden and, therefore, the CIA is the responsible
agency.  President Obama fulfilled his presidential campaign
promise by not allowing the CIA to forget about Osama bin Laden
like the Bush administration did. 

If Osama bin Laden did all the stuff the CIA said he did, then it
would have behooved the Republicans to have gotten him “Dead
or Alive” as Bush promised, but they did not— Bush totally forgot
about Osama bin Laden even being a problem, but Obama didn’t
to his credit—even though it was nearly 10 years after the fact.

Hey Ardee,
Is there anyway I could get in touch with you outside of this blog?
I have read a few things lately that have really made me reevaluate some of the
things we have talked about, and I’d like to share them with you (and not really
with the rest of TD.)
I you’re not interested, I understand.

Anarcissie

I’ve taken the liberty of selecting this theme song for you. I find it to be very apropos.

“I don’t know what they have to say,
It makes no difference anyway—
Whatever it is, I’m against it!
No matter what it is or who commenced it,
I’m against it.
Your proposition may be good
But let’s have one thing understood—
Whatever it is, I’m against it!
And even when you’ve changed it or condensed it,
I’m against it.
I’m opposed to it—
On general principles I’m opposed to it!

Chorus:

She’s opposed to it!
In fact, in word, in deed,
She’s opposed to it!

Anarcissie:
“Maybe we need to think more radically about work.”

What did you have in mind?

Maybe we need to think more radically about work.

Lest We Forget—or remain distracted:

It’s still about jobs and the economy.  We’re back to 9.0 now.  Positive momentum has been broken.  Not good.

oddsox—I am an anarchist, not an advocate of third or other larger-ordinal parties.  I believe a third party which gained any traction would be quickly diverted by the same forces which have already diverted the present major parties.  However, I do sometimes advise third-party and reform-movement fans that they had better do something besides post their trenchant critiques on other people’s blogs.  The time for organizing any sort of electoral campaign for 2012 is now.

ardee—The basic function of the state is to produce and structure violence in the interests of its ruling class.  The rubout of bin Laden, a peripheral actor elevated to the role of chief boogie-man, was probably strategically vacuous from the point of view of controlling events in the Middle East, but it was a masterstroke against the Republican Party, which is probably all that mattered.  One can see this in Conason’s and Dionne’s ugly crowing.

Conason makes some good points.
“Restraint can indeed be consistent with resolve.”
and “the…right(has)no monopoly on toughness.”

(In my opinion, he blunts these good points with the cliched Rove-bashing, but I know it’s good red meat for his reader base.)

Obama has handled this well.
Take care of business and move on. 
Praise for the SEALs who got the job done.
But no end zone dancing.

As for burial at sea in accord with Muslim protocol, Winston Chruchill put it well:
“When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.” 

“Pictures?  We don’t need no stinking pictures.”
(No Somali pirate photos either, you’ll remember.) 
Gotta say, on this one Obama reminds me a little of John Wayne.

Samson, you call for a protest vote for 3rd party candidates in 2012? 
You realize that will place a Republican back in the White House, don’t you? 
Just as Nader helped W to win in 2000.  As T.Roosevelt secured a Wilson victory in 1912.  Several other examples in our history, as detailed on another thread (Anarcissie, do you remember where? I’ve forgotten…) 

Samson, Anarcissie & other 3rd party supporters should realize what you’re up against historically. 
If you really want a Bernie Sanders or a Howard Dean in the White House, your best chance will come in 2016 through the regular Democratic Party primary process. 

For you, the good news is:
1) you have time enough if you get busy now.
2) the results of the 2012 election shouldn’t adversely affect your efforts either way.

ardee, you wrote re: the killing of bin Laden, “we are also murdering our own democracy in the process.” 

You couldn’t be more wrong.

Unless it’s here:
“Why, I must wonder, wasn’t such a treasure trove of potential information captured, especially when he was found unarmed and surrounded by our best warriors?”

Such an intel treasure trove was gained from the raid.  You won’t see it (nor will Julian Assange) for the same reasons that Pakistan wasn’t notified in advance of the raid. 

Better to ask forgiveness than permission in this case.

Conason is a shill for the Democratic Party establishment.  Of course he’s going to write jingoistic tripe—fact-free jingoistic tripe.  The question is, why is it being reprinted in a supposed proggie publication?

What jingoistic tripe.

MarthaA, May 6 at 7:22 pm Link to this comment

Osama bin Laden should not have lent his name to be used as the killer of the 3,000 Americans on 9/11 if he had not wanted to be
killed, Bush protected Osama, but Obama didn’t and I will not hold that against President Obama.

One opinion , to which you are entitled of course. Another might be generated when one recalls that bin Laden denied any involvement in the events of 9/11 directly after the event. That he would do so, after a track record of claiming those acts which he had personal involvement, should, but doesn’t seem to, give you pause. When we applaud state sponsored violence of any kind we bring about a future of continued violence.

Why, I must wonder, wasn’t such a treasure trove of potential information captured, especially when he was found unarmed and surrounded by our best warriors?

If one claims to be against wars then one must,perforce, be against all acts thereof I offer. This was a state sponsored assassination, and we are also murdering our own democracy in the process.

Oh, great. That’s all we need. Democrats to out-war the War Party. Is there any Peace Party to be found in America?
There is nothing strong or courageous about ordering others to kill bin Laden. That wasn’t a courageous decision.
What’s courageous is to stand up to the Defense Industry and say: “No more war!”, the Financial Industry and say: “No more tax breaks, you’re on your own, and by the way, I’m prosecuting and jailing some of you.”, the Healthcare Industry and say: “You’d better find another way of making money, because I’m pushing for universal healthcare.” Now that takes personal courage.
Obama has not thrown one industry under the bus, and thus he has thrown us all under the bus. Obama courageous?...spit.

I agree that President Obama was tough enough to get the job done.

Osama bin Laden should not have lent his name to be used as the
killer of the 3,000 Americans on 9/11 if he had not wanted to be
killed, Bush protected Osama, but Obama didn’t and I will not hold
that against President Obama.  Republicans could have accomplished
the task sooner, but didn’t consider it necessary, whereas President
Obama did.

Can everyone just agree that Obama is yet another pro-
war Republican?

Did we really elect Obama over Bush because we wanted
Obama to be a better killer than Bush?

If you don’t want killing and war, don’t vote for the
killers.  There will be other names on the 2012 ballot,
and some of them won’t have blood on their hands.

“Never mind that the only steel Rove has ever brandished is a dinner
fork. The overheated rhetoric, faked intelligence, “enhanced
interrogations” and mindless militarism of the Bush administration
never produced bin Laden dead or alive, as promised back then, and
instead misled us into the trillion-dollar quicksand of Iraq, from which
President Obama is still extracting us.”

This paragraph is definitely what people need to remember about
Republicans—all Republicans.