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Too Much Fox-Flavored Kool-Aid for Juan Williams

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Posted on Oct 21, 2010
AP / Richard Drew

By The Rev. Madison Shockley

Juan Williams is living evidence that watching too much Fox News will rot your brain. Williams has been a voice of reason in what is otherwise a virtual tsunami of rhetorical nonsense. Williams has often held the center on Fox in discussions revolving around race, religion and culture generally. That is why his capitulation to his host (and boss), Bill O’Reilly, was so sad.

Williams stated on “The O’Reilly Factor” on Monday night, “Political correctness can lead to some kind of paralysis where you don’t address reality ... but when I get on a plane and if I see people who are in Muslim garb, and I think they’re identifying themselves first and foremost as Muslims, I get worried, I get nervous.” He then quoted a statement by the Times Square bomber, Faisal Shahzad, that the “war with Muslims is just beginning” and gave that remark the status of “facts” while ignoring the real fact that Shahzad, himself, looked like an average middle class American, dressed in “American garb,” when he lit the fuse on his SUV in the middle of Times Square.


The idea that a black man in America should condone blatant racial and religious profiling as a reasonable way of navigating life in our diverse culture is tragic indeed. I would be surprised if Williams, like many, many other black men, including myself, has not been the victim of racial profiling. He should read Harvard professor Charles Ogletree’s recent book, “The Presumption of Guilt,” which chronicles the failure of racial profiling and examines how this practice corrupts the entire criminal justice system.

Williams seems to make some point about religious garb being a sign of fanaticism rather that what it is, a sign of obedience and consistency in one’s faith. Whether it’s the Christian who wears the cross or crucifix, or the Jew who wears a yarmulke or the Muslim who wears a taqiyah, each, contrary to Williams’ interpretation, is first and foremost showing respect to his faith and piety to a secular world around him.

If Williams actually believes what he said, he should be one nervous cat. His reference to the peculiar vulnerability of an airplane also fails to be compelling because it is commonly known that since 9/11, al-Qaida and other terrorist groups have consistently used non-Arab looking personnel to commit their heinous deeds. Remember the shoe bomber, Richard Reid (Afro-Anglo descent)? Remember the underwear bomber, Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, from Nigeria? Most of the 9/11 bombers themselves had shaven off their beards to avoid notice. I just don’t understand Williams’ “facts” or logic.

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I get on airplanes and assume that we all want to live. I expect that the spirit of flight 93 would prevail and everyone, white, black, secular, religious, male, female, gay and straight would band together to save one another. Williams needs to relax and get on the plane trusting that those above his pay grade (think screeners at the gate) have done their jobs and everyone on the plane is expecting to get to their destination.

Unfortunately, I have been uncomfortable with what others have thought of me when I get on an airplane. Thirty years ago, dressed in my finest preacher-go-to-meetin’ three-piece black suit, I was asked by a white passenger to pour him a glass of white wine. Five years ago, flying on a Sunday in my religious garb, the screener at the gate read out loud my “Blues Brothers” tie that said, “On a Mission from God.” Ten paces past the metal detector I went into a nervous panic expecting air marshals to swoop down to prevent me from boarding the plane in case my “Mission from God” was not so holy. Ironically, I probably attracted more attention with my furtive looking about as I made my way to the gate than with my enigmatic tie.

So today, we should not perpetuate the racial, religious and cultural profiling of minorities just to provide a false psychic security for the majority. I am not nearly as afraid of the pious and their prayers on airplanes (whether nervous prayers or faithful prayers). I am much more afraid of the muddled thinking that resulted in the bomb that Williams exploded on “The O’Reilly Factor.” NPR was right to terminate an analyst and commentator whose skills of critical thinking have clearly deteriorated after a decade of drinking the Fox News Kool-Aid.


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Go Right Young Man's avatar

By Go Right Young Man, October 27, 2010 at 8:56 am Link to this comment

Shingo, - “I beg to differ GRYM.’

-

Then you should continue to use “hasbrat” in the manner in which you do if you feel so strongly about it. 

My shame and humiliation continues.  In fact it’s almost unbearable.  Thank you for setting me straight, Shingo.  You’re my hero!

Report this

By Shingo, October 27, 2010 at 7:05 am Link to this comment

By Go Right Young Man, October 27 at 11:02 am Link to this comment

“The term is Hasbarats.  And you’re using the term incorrectly.  I thought you’d wish to know”

I beg to differ GRYM.  After all, having a Hasbrat (or Hasbarat) arguing that one is using the term incorrectly is a bit like getting and alcoholic to admit he has a drinking problem.

Report this
Go Right Young Man's avatar

By Go Right Young Man, October 27, 2010 at 7:02 am Link to this comment

Shingo, - “You seem to have forgotten how during our last debate, many participants posted comments expressing their appreciation to me for exposing your lies and setting the facts straight.”

-

I too appreciate you wink.

The term is Hasbarats.  And you’re using the term incorrectly.  I thought you’d wish to know.

Report this

By Shingo, October 27, 2010 at 6:38 am Link to this comment

By Go Right Young Man, October 26 at 2:14 pm Link to this comment

“I believe, if you apply yourself and apply the lessons with vigor, you could excel at bringing something to the discussions here and elsewhere.”

I am confident I already have GRYM.  You seem to have forgotten how during our last debate, many participants posted comments expressing their appreciation to me for exposing your lies and setting the facts straight.

Has the experience traumatized you such that you can no longer remember?  I seem to remember that when confronted, your arguments quickly degenerate into incoherent gibberish. 

Is that was we are witnessing again here?

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Go Right Young Man's avatar

By Go Right Young Man, October 27, 2010 at 6:31 am Link to this comment

Shingo, - “It’s a common theme among you Hasbrats”

-

The term is Hasbarats.  And you’re using the term incorrectly.

Report this

By Shingo, October 26, 2010 at 3:42 pm Link to this comment

By Go Right Young Man, October 26 at 2:14 pm Link to this comment

“I suspended one of my own rules for you. - Never to supply another link on this forum.”

Never GRYM?  didn’t you link to Semae Stree earlier?

Yes, I know that’s a rule you kuve by GRYM, and I know why you’re such an advocate.  The last ime we got into a real debate, I produce links to debunk your claims about Hamas firign rockets at Israel during the 2008 ceasefire and you you were subsequently humliated.

You simply want the level the playing field so you can get away with making up BS as you go along nd not have to substantiate it with evidence.  It’s a common theme among you Hasbrats.


“You could learn everything from cognitive reasoning, reading comprehension, spelling, stringing thought patterns and simple manners and humility.”

I could, or I could simply stick to debating those that lie and spread propaganfa, which I think is far or imvaluable.

“I believe, if you apply yourself and apply the lessons with vigor, you could excel at bringing something to the discussions here and elsewhere. “

Thanks GRYM, but no thanks.  No off you go. You don’t want to miss another episode of Sesame Steet would you?

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Napolean DoneHisPart's avatar

By Napolean DoneHisPart, October 26, 2010 at 12:35 pm Link to this comment

What is funny ( actually sad, but ) is how folks think ‘they see’ the landscape…. but oh, what a fairy tale our American Dream is.

Please folks, do not attack each other for the failure of one person to agree with another.. for we’ve all been deceived and duped on the biggest scale ever possible.

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Napolean DoneHisPart's avatar

By Napolean DoneHisPart, October 26, 2010 at 12:35 pm Link to this comment

What is funny ( actually sad, but ) is how folks think ‘they see’ the landscape…. but oh, what a fairy tale our American Dream is.

Please folks, do not attack each other for the failure of one person to agree with another.. for we’ve all been deceived and duped on the biggest scale every possible.

Report this
Go Right Young Man's avatar

By Go Right Young Man, October 26, 2010 at 10:14 am Link to this comment

Shingo,

I suspended one of my own rules for you. - Never to supply another link on this forum.

The lessons on the site I shared with you are invaluable.  You could learn everything from cognitive reasoning, reading comprehension, spelling, stringing thought patterns and simple manners and humility.

I believe, if you apply yourself and apply the lessons with vigor, you could excel at bringing something to the discussions here and elsewhere.

Report this

By Shingo, October 25, 2010 at 9:36 pm Link to this comment

By Marshall, October 26 at 1:13 am Link to this comment

“he didn’t condone or promote his own reaction”

If you’d ever studied human behavior, you might have noticed that we tend to spend less time explaining ourselves when we’ve made a blunder.  The fact that Williams has not sought to clarity what he said is pretty strong evidence that he doesn’t plant o retract it, hence condoning it.

“He also made the clear case for constitutional rights protection for all in the same broadcast.”

Except that those rights didn’t offer any protection to Nasser, Sanchez or Helen Thomas.

“You also might want to look up the correct definition of bigot rather than continue to misuse it.”

I did, and you fit the bill perfectly.

Biggot: a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own

I noticed you didn’t bother denying that your a racist.

Report this

By Marshall, October 25, 2010 at 9:13 pm Link to this comment

By Shingo, October 25 at 7:42 pm Link to this comment

“Really?  So he retracted his own statement?”

If you’d troubled yourself to read/listen to more than the sound bites you’d have
seen that he didn’t condone or promote his own reaction.  He also made the clear
case for constitutional rights protection for all in the same broadcast. 

You also might want to look up the correct definition of bigot rather than continue
to misuse it.

Report this

By robert puglia, October 25, 2010 at 8:37 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

nothing invites censure like free expression

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By Shingo, October 25, 2010 at 6:39 pm Link to this comment

By Go Right Young Man, October 25 at 10:06 pm Link to this comment

“If you revisit some basics I believe you’ll find all the “evidence” you’re looking for.”

As I suspected GRYM.  You have the brain of a 5 year old and spend the majority of your existence in a land of make believe.

Report this
Go Right Young Man's avatar

By Go Right Young Man, October 25, 2010 at 6:06 pm Link to this comment

Shingo, - “I take it you have evidence to suggest this GRYM?”

_

Absolutely.  I’m glad you asked.

If you revisit some basics I believe you’ll find all the “evidence” you’re looking for.

http://www.sesamestreet.org/home

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By ardee, October 25, 2010 at 5:26 pm Link to this comment

Shingo, October 25 at 5:02 am Link to this comment

Marshall,

The prize for sticking one’s head up the furthest up their own ass surely goes to you.

Thanks for the belly laugh…you got style! I admit to skipping the posts of that person, what is the point of reading such commentary emanating, as it does, from the nether regions Shingo so eloquently named.

Report this

By REDHORSE, October 25, 2010 at 5:08 pm Link to this comment

As always—indignant self-indulgent shock at ther zit and complete denial of the infection.

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By Shingo, October 25, 2010 at 3:42 pm Link to this comment

By Marshall, October 25 at 7:01 pm Link to this comment

“Nothing bigoted about stating a feeling.”

Right, so deriding balck peopel as savages is perfectly reasonable so long as you feel it.

Are you sugegsting al those hooded KKK members weren’t honest about their racism?

“he didn’t condone his reaction”

Really?  So he retracted his own statement?

“a reaction the majority of americans certainly have as well.”

Acording to what poll?  BTW.  A majority of Americans:

a) can’t find the USA on a map.
b) thought Iraq had WMD
c) thought Saddam was behind 9/11

“Simply that they expose their PC bias and clearly wanted to fire him, most certainly because he also works for Fox and hasn’t been afraid to express opinions in the past that don’t necessarily tow the NPR party line.”

According to what evidence Marshall?  And what is the NPR party line?

BTW.  Do you think CNN fired Sanchez and Nasser because they didn’t necessarily tow the NPR party line??

“no matter - i like Juan and will value his analysis elsewhere.”

Elsewhere, meaning Faux news, which is clerly your favourite source of “news”.

Report this

By Marshall, October 25, 2010 at 3:01 pm Link to this comment

By Shingo, October 25 at 5:02 am Link to this comment

Nothing bigoted about stating a feeling.  he didn’t condone his reaction - a
reaction the majority of americans certainly have as well.

NPR can fire anyone for anything they want (within legal limits) and no one’s
arguing that.  Simply that they expose their PC bias and clearly wanted to fire him,
most certainly because he also works for Fox and hasn’t been afraid to express
opinions in the past that don’t necessarily tow the NPR party line.

no matter - i like Juan and will value his analysis elsewhere.

Report this
Peetawonkus's avatar

By Peetawonkus, October 25, 2010 at 2:35 pm Link to this comment

Juan Williams doesn’t think of himself as a black man who has experienced racial profiling. He thinks he’s above all that. Same as Clarence Thomas. He has completely identified with the ruling class and is its willing instrument.

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mack894's avatar

By mack894, October 25, 2010 at 8:48 am Link to this comment

Juan fails to disclose that he had disciplined at least two other times on
remarks he’d made that troubled NPR and I guess those discussions had to be
substantive. I would imagine that a disciplinary discussion would include a very
clear description of the problematic behavior and how it conflicted with NPRs
policies. Given this history, NPRs actions cannot be seen as capricious or unfair.

As an employee of a corporation, I am required to be mindful of the
corporation whenever I am in public. If you, as a parent, had a child whose
teacher went on a news station and discussed their prejeudices against white
people or black people, you might wonder how those feelings affected your
child’s performance and acceptance in that child’s classroom.  If I saw someone
I worked with on the news discussing their prejeudices, I’d certainly complain
and would also refuse to be managed by that person.

This is why Shirley Sherrod was fired from her job because the right complained
that she expressed racist views in public.

Juan is entitled to feel any way he wants to and he is perfectly free to express
those views.  But airing them publicly given the terms of his employment was
foolish.  How would Muslim employees of NPR feel about working with Juan.?  If
he had said instead that white men made him queasy or that he was nervous
around white Tea Baggers because he’d seen so many of them act violently
around black people, I don’t think he’d have so many defenders.

Report this

By Shingo, October 25, 2010 at 1:37 am Link to this comment

“I’m feeling a lot of hatred here at truthdig. Hatred leads to war you know. It’s an issue which is being hotly debated (har-har-har) on another thread.”

Yeah, and conservatives have really led the way in keeping us out of wars right Rick?

ar-har-har

Report this

By Shingo, October 25, 2010 at 1:24 am Link to this comment

“If there remains any question about whether NPR is liberal or not, just look at the degree to which it is being defended on truthdig. “

By that logic, CNN and AP are Zionist propaganda arms right Rick?

Are all you wingnuts born without any sense of irony?

Report this

By Shingo, October 25, 2010 at 1:13 am Link to this comment

Go Right Young Man,

“Reading between the lines of Juan’s statement and those of NPR officials, it’s apparent that NPR was moved to fire Juan because he irritates so many people in its audience.”

How do you know that GRYM?  Are you among the audience of NPR who found him irritating?

“An interesting contrast: while many NPR listeners
apparently could not stomach that Williams also appeared on Fox News.”

I take it you have evidence to suggest this GRYM?  A poll perhaps?  A survey?  Or are you simply making this up?
“But it doesn’t seem that any perceptible number of Fox News viewers had any complaints that Williams also worked for NPR. The Fox audience seems to be more tolerant of diversity than the NPR audience.”

Based on what survey or poll GRYM?

“It remains interesting to me, as evidenced on this very thread, that on this Web space - where Open-Minded, all-inclusive, liberalism reins - the level of hatred for different points of view is always Front and Center.”

So along with Marshall, I take it you were very disturbed that Sanchez, Thomas ans Nasser were fired for expressing their views?

If you’re not, then you’re nothing but a hypocrite – though we kinda knew that already.

Report this

By Shingo, October 25, 2010 at 1:06 am Link to this comment

Marshall, October 24 at 10:01 pm Link to this comment

By mack894, October 24 at 9:13 pm Link to this comment

Mack - Juan wasn’t at work at NPR.. he was working for another network and it’s not the one that fired him.”

Neither Sanchez, Nasser or Thomas were appearing on their own programs when they got fired either.

“Secondly, numerous other NPR journalists (Totenberg, Liasson, etc…) state personal opinions (sometimes inflammatory, which Juan’s was not) outside of work
and are not fired.”

Yes, everyone states personal opinions.  For example, stating it’s a nice day is an opinion.

“The reason is most certainly that those opinions reflect that of NPR whereas Juan’s was not PC enough for them.”

So I take it you want AP to take Thoma back and CNN to renew Sanchez’s contract?

“Hence, he was fired for political reasons, thus exposing NPR’s bias and double standard.”

Why was Phil Donahue fired Marshall?  Sanchez?  Nasser?  Thomas?  Were they political reasons?

Report this

By Shingo, October 25, 2010 at 1:02 am Link to this comment

Marshall,

The prize for sticking one’s head up the furthest up their own ass surely goes to you. 

As Andrew Sullivan pointed out, Williams prefaced his statement with the claim he was not a biggot and then proceeded to make a biggoted statement.

I’m surprised TD allows amateurs comment here, but I guess we’re stuck with you.

Report this

By Shingo, October 25, 2010 at 12:58 am Link to this comment

“Wow. A news commentator fired for expressing his opinions on another “news” program. Way to go NPR. I guess NPR only wants people that fit into their liberal agenda.”

Yeah like that’s never happened before right Fat Freddy?  Sanchez was on someone else’s radio show when he stuck his foot in his mouth.  Octavia Nasser was on Twitter and Helen Thomas wasn’t on any news program. Were they offending a liberal agenda.

When do you think Fox will be offering them contracts?

Report this
kerryrose's avatar

By kerryrose, October 24, 2010 at 8:43 pm Link to this comment

Fat Freddy

Here is very lucid description of the Williams situation:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/parvez-ahmed/juan-williams-to-helen-th_b_772396.html

Report this

By the worm, October 24, 2010 at 7:04 pm Link to this comment

NPRs firing of Juan Williams was an attempt to change the subject from its
memo to staff threatening them if they attended the upcoming Colbert/Stewart
rallies in DC.

The blow back from their memo was so bad they had to change the subject.

The Board , the management , will still grovel for corporate contributions, will
still have a skewed news and editorial policy, and will still allow the donors to
influence the news.

Listen one day to NPR and count the number of ‘experts’ from Right Wing ‘think
tanks’ - this would include American Enterprise Institute, Hoover Institute,
George Mason, etc. Each one poses as an ‘expert’ and is presented as someone
who is ‘unbiased’. Yet, each one is funded through a Right Wing ‘think tank’ and
- not surprisingly - presents the ideological perspective you would expect:
‘corporate welfare’ in the guise of ‘free market capitalism’.

The Republicans may mau-mau NPR , but their funders have taken it over, their
‘experts’ are constantly sited and there is no better way for the Republicans to
tap into a new voting block than use NPR to do it.

Juan is nothing. But can you believe NPR is threatened by Colbert/Stewart?

Report this

By FiftyGigs, October 24, 2010 at 6:27 pm Link to this comment

I SO hate to be dumb, but, with regard to “Muslim garb”, you DO realize Muslim men wear shirts and pants, right?

And you DO realize you’re wallowing in an issue conservatives could care less about, right?

You ALSO realize, I hope, that you’ve spent more time beating up yourselves than you’ve spent focusing on what the right wing is doing to the Tides Foundation, don’t you?

Report this

By Marshall, October 24, 2010 at 6:01 pm Link to this comment

By mack894, October 24 at 9:13 pm Link to this comment

Mack - Juan wasn’t at work at NPR.. he was working for another network and it’s
not the one that fired him.

Secondly, numerous other NPR journalists (Totenberg, Liasson, etc…) state
personal opinions (sometimes inflammatory, which Juan’s was not) outside of work
and are not fired.  The reason is most certainly that those opinions reflect that of
NPR whereas Juan’s was not PC enough for them.  Hence, he was fired for political
reasons, thus exposing NPR’s bias and double standard.

Report this
mack894's avatar

By mack894, October 24, 2010 at 5:13 pm Link to this comment

I believe if I were at work and started talking about how Muslims in religious
garb scare me, or how Jews wearing yarmulke’s make me nervous, or how
blacks instinctively make me reach for my purse, I would be fired.  There’s no
law against my saying these things or feeling this way, but there is a rule in the
employee handbook, on which I’m tested yearly, on how to comport myself in
this particular workplace.

I would hope that a journalist, be it Juan Williams or Rick Sanchez, think about
how to broach a topic before opening their mouths. Of course people are
nervous especially when the media plays repeatedly news clips defining
Muslims as terrorists…or focus on stories about black men beating up old
women. His firing had little to do with political correctness and everything to do
with professionalism imho.

Report this

By Kronosaurus, October 24, 2010 at 4:47 pm Link to this comment

This commentary proves Williams’ assertion about
being paralyzed by political correctness. All he did
was admit he has a bias when seeing people in garb
that appeared Muslim. He did not say he was
advocating profiling nor was he making an assertion
or factual claim. he was reporting on his perceptions
and admitting they were flawed. So what happens now?
NPR fires him and we will all become liars because
who the heck is going to admit they have unconscious
or even conscious biases (and we all have them)? The
commentator here reacted, just like NPR, to the
surface of what Williams was saying and perpetuated
the dark side of the political correct movement. It
was a huge setback for justice and a big gain for the
reactionaries at Fox News.

Report this

By omop, October 24, 2010 at 3:59 pm Link to this comment

Could this be the Muslim Juan was referring to?

Zionist Patsy Adam Gadahn Calls For Terror Attacks In Multiple Cities
October 24, 2010  


Editors Note: Adam Gadahn, the grandson of former Anti-Defamation League
board member Carl K. Pearlman, is a complete patsy, trained by rogue
elements of the Mossad to help further the fraudulent war on terror. The ADL
was caught spying on the United States in 1993 and openly works for the
interests of Zionist Israel.

Associated Press Report.

CAIRO — A U.S.-born spokesman for al-Qaida on Saturday urged Muslims
living in the United States and Europe to carry out attacks there, calling it a
duty and an obligation.

In a 48-minute video posted on militant websites, Adam Gadahn directed his
appeal to Muslim immigrants in what he called the “miserable suburbs” of
Paris, London and Detroit, as well as those traveling to the West to study or
work.

“It is the duty of everyone who is sincere in his desire to defend Islam and
Muslims today, to take the initiative to perform the individual obligation of
jihad … by striking the Zio-Crusader interests,” he said, referring to Western
and Jewish interests.

Gadahn, who has been hunted by the FBI since 2004, also sought to discredit
attempts by moderate Muslim leaders to suppress the “jihadi awakening.”

Report this

By REDHORSE, October 24, 2010 at 3:40 pm Link to this comment

Mass hatred of a designated “other” based on irrational fear, anxiety and distorted fact is a major American industry. The professional cause and effect manipulation of American mind, soul and emotion is an organized criminal enterprise. From the “enhanced” psychological interrogation rooms given legitimacy by the presence of the American Psychological Association to round-the-clock T.V. spewing skewed social values and moral ignorance into our living rooms it is a well planned and organized campaign. A significant percentage of WWII warcrimes involved psychological experimentation. In fact some experts believe the Concentration Camps represented a new form of Society. Now, admiration and study of Hitlers propaganda machine has given us the good Dr. Mengele with an airbrush and the latest version of Adobe Acrobat.

    Don’t think it’s there? Ask yourself how Rovian frankencreatures like Palin or Beck dominate American dialogue or consider the fact that most of our kids can text like hell but have no sense of connection to their own history or the rich spiritual, intellectual heritage America represents. Our ever falling place in World status says it all. Fifty years ago you’d have been laughed off the planet if you built a multi-million dollar clap flap Creationist Museum. Now, it’s “politically correct”. Tell me: “—-how many fingers am I holding up?—”

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Blackspeare's avatar

By Blackspeare, October 24, 2010 at 2:58 pm Link to this comment

Juan William’s remark is just plain dumb.  People that mean you harm in an airport or on an airplane don’t dress in unconventional clothes.  So actually, if you’re in an airport and see people in Muslim garb——don’t get nervous——you’re safe they mean you no harm!

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Allan Krueger's avatar

By Allan Krueger, October 24, 2010 at 2:21 pm Link to this comment

Sheeit! We are a country of, uninformed, Christian extremists! The government is preparing the way for yet another, false (no) flag attack, so they can attack Iran! Anyone who doesn’t realize this is just not paying attention!

Word to NeoCON, religious nut jobs: There are too many Muslims! It is a losing strategy!

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Napolean DoneHisPart's avatar

By Napolean DoneHisPart, October 24, 2010 at 12:18 pm Link to this comment

This man was fired for publicly sharing his sentiments and the illusion PUSHED onto the Amerikan public that we have ‘enemies’ and ‘this is what they look like.’

To fire him was to reveal the gross realities of conditioning via media.

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By omop, October 24, 2010 at 8:38 am Link to this comment

pgg804.

Factual and short synopsis of past events in the ME/Arab/Muslim world.

Madelein Allbright expressed her rights to “kill over 500,000 Iraqi children just
to get rid of Saddam Hussein’

  And poor little Don Juan is scared of a human being wearing a burka.

Report this

By pgg804, October 24, 2010 at 7:57 am Link to this comment

Its been said before and its the same in this case too - “the first casualty in war
is the truth.”. Calling the people being blown up by American and Israeli bombs
terrorists is turning truth on its head. I wonder who’s more afraid, Juan Williams
or an Arab who is taking cover during a bomber attack while thousands of
people around him are are being blown to pieces.

Its unfortunate Americans are so uninformed about certain facts.  The US has
been attacking countries in the middle east one way or another for more than
fifty years.  The most blatant example of criminality is the USA’s attacks on Iran
since WW II.  Before that, the British attacked Iran.  Here is a short history of our
relations with that country.

* In 1941 Great Britain attacks Iran and occupies it.

* In 1953 the US and Great Britain overthrow the democratically elected
government of Iran and install the Shah of Iran, a dictator

* In 1979 Iran overthrows the Shah.  The Shah’s government was known for
modernization, but also torture.  Iran held 50 American embassy workers
fearing their new government would be overthrown by Americans again.  The
USA said the Americans were “hostages”.  The people who overthrew Iran’s
government in 1953 operated from the American embassy also.  Iran released
the 50 Americans one year later.

* In the early 1980’s after Iraq attacked Iran, twice Secretary of State Donald
Rumsfeld met with Saddam Hussein and shook his hand to seal a deal to supply
Iraq with weapons for its war against Iran.  You can view this meeting on
youtube.

* In 1988 during the war between Iran and Iraq the US shoots down an Iranian
civilian airliner killing three hundred people.  According to the US this was an
accident, but the first President Bush refuses to apologize for the incident

* in 1991 the US turns on its former ally Iraq and attacks the country while
demonizing its leader.  Years later in 2003 the USA has Saddam and his son
murdered by the new gov’t it installed, while saying Saddam was a new Hitler
and his son a serial rapist

*  The second President George Bush calls Iran part of the “axis of evil” during
his reign.  When Iran’s President Ahmadinejad says he wants to pay his respects
to the American 9/11 victims he is verbally attacked by American leaders and
called a terrorist himself.

*  The USA, ratcheting up its propaganda begins offering money to east
European countries to allow the USA to put a “missile defense system” on these
countries territories to supposedly protect Europe from an Iranian nuclear
attack.  The facts are Iran does not have missiles that could reach Europe, it
doesn’t have nuclear weapons to arm those imaginary missiles and it has never
given any indication it would attack Europe.  A majority of Europeans are
opposed to this plan which is a ruse for extending American military power
against Russia and others. 

* Iran is a member of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and under that treaty
is allowed to pursue the peaceful use of nuclear power (Iran says its research is
for peaceful purposes and it does not want nuclear weapons).  But for several
years now, the USA and our ally Israel have been threatening Iran with an attack
on the country. Israel is a country that is known to have 150 or more nuclear
weapons, its nuclear program is completely secretive and with American
support is not a part of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and not put under
any pressure to become a member.

For at least the last ten years the primary force pushing the USA into attacking
Iran has been the powerful Israeli lobby (and its neo-con sympathizers such as
Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz) which is so effective with the help of its
friends in the media at spreading lies (such as the one that Iran’s Ahmadinejad
threatened to “wipe Israel off the map”) and hate directed at anyone it opposes. 
Ahmadinejad never said that.

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By rico, suave, October 23, 2010 at 5:16 pm Link to this comment

JD:

“you’d be telling me I was interfering with free speech if I screamed too loud.” No. I certainly would not!

Thank you for making my point about South Korea by noting that since 1980, it has been self-governing. It took that long because of the existential threat it endured from the North and China, and which the US has to make sure didn’t happen.

“Your fear based conjecture ... is typical of conservative thinking, it’s this kind of thinking that has caused the actual deaths of uncounted millions, and has affectively eliminated the possibilities of what might have been.”

Exactly what conservative thinkers were responsible for “untold millions” of deaths? Stalin? Mao? Pol Pot? Roosevelt? And you still will not face up to the question of whether the North would overrun the South were it not for the US presence.

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By REDHORSE, October 23, 2010 at 5:07 pm Link to this comment

RAYLAN’s first post on this thread and DIAMOND pretty much said it for me on the article itself. I appreciate FAT FRED and a few others who often deflate financial knee-jerk for us. After all, it’s individuals not supernatural forces who made the decisions which created the current mess. Remove corrupting business $$$$$ with Campaign Finance Reform and a great deal of manufactured propagandist hysteria will disappear. Propaganda being the key word. I have some knowledge of the steps FAT FRED suggests for regaining personal freedom and responsibility and they’re worth serious consideration.

      Is this a “tempest in a teapot”?  What we call the MSM is a dangerous destructive smoke and mirrors propagandist machine that creates serious social dissociation and psychological/emotional damage. The fact that with no hesitation J. Williams was written a 2 million dollar contract illustrates how closed the system is and how far outside it you and I are. I agree with FAT FRED on total freedom of speech. It allows one to identify the hydrophobic and be forearmed. TRUTHDIGGERS squabble but they also often manage to peer through the lie and at least glimpse the forces shaping American reality.

      I’m still convinced that the POWER remains with “We the people..” not with the morally bankrupt corporatist machine feeding bananas to Baboonus Washingtonus. Is it me, or do some articles here seem just a little too loaded with political slant and red meat. Put the SHADOW in sunlight and the vampire dies. Knee-jerk and paranoid anxious hysteria is exactly the “Koolaid” they sell. Thristy?

      I enjoy this madhouse. KEEP IT ROCKIN’!!

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By omop, October 23, 2010 at 4:48 pm Link to this comment

diamond,

Direct and to the point commentary. well stated.

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By diamond, October 23, 2010 at 4:12 pm Link to this comment

The plain fact is Fox News is the kind of TV channel Hitler would have loved to have to spread his message of hate. Fox News is a hate crime and it’s a hate crime 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Juan Williams is, at the very least, a fool to go on Fox, when people are threatening to burn the Koran and mindless bigots are trying to stop people building a mosque in New York ‘because of 9/11’ and say what he said. However much he tried to finesse it, he was pouring fuel on the flames of religious bigotry and misinformation about 9/11 and the war on terror that is a specialty of Fox News. And make no mistake, that’s what he was there for. He was there to be a liberal who is nervous around Muslims, because you know, they’re just so evil even a ‘liberal’ can’t help but be nervous if he sees a Muslim wearing Muslim garb. This kind of idiocy is typical of Fox and Williams was grovelling to Bill O’Reilly and bolstering his far right, fascist agenda by saying what he said. If he didn’t know that then he’s a dupe as well as a fool.

I, on the other hand, will never forget Bill O’Reilly’s hateful attack on a young man whose father was a Port Authority worker who was killed on 9/11. Because he dared to say that Bush was responsible for 9/11 O’Reilly went after him like an attack dog. Even after the show the staff at Fox, when they found the ‘guest’ in the green room trying to have a cup of coffee, ordered him off the premises because they were terrified that if O’Reilly encountered him he would assault him and end up in court. This was a grieving son of one of the victims and O’Reilly treated him like an ‘enemy combatant’. His concern for those killed on 9/11 is rank hypocrisy, as is his ‘fear’ of Muslims. All this playacting is simply part of the same old media cover-up that’s been going on since September 12 2001. As Aaron Russo, film maker and activist, said before he died, ‘The war on terror is a perfect war. There’s no enemy so no one can win and the war goes on forever.’

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By JDmysticDJ, October 23, 2010 at 3:43 pm Link to this comment

Rico Suave

“Can you honestly tell me that if NPR had the ideological slant of Fox News, you wouldn’t be screaming for its defunding?”

Well yeah! I can honestly say that if NPR was funded by an Aussie Nazi, and a Saudi Prince, I’d be screaming for its defunding. Here me scream!

Being rational and logical, I’d object to NPR’s ideological slant if it were as extreme as Fox’s, and I would be screaming for its defunding, but you’d be telling me I was interfering with free speech if I screamed too loud.

According to your logic, MPR’s namby pamby, apolitical crap is not O.K, while Fox’s Goebbels like propaganda is O.K.

You make a seemingly good point when you point out that no Government action is not Government action. It’s kind of like analyzing the Government response to Katrina. No response is … no response. Or, is no response, a kind of response. “War is Peace”

I’ll respond here to your comments on another thread, forgive me for going off topic.

You might want to take 15 minutes to brush up on your South Korean history. Note that a liberal President had to remove a conservative General who unilaterally tried to start World War III, and create a probable nuclear conflagration. Also note that the U.S. Military installed a Government in South Korea made up of Japanese Bureaucrats who had been the former oppressors of South Korean national sovereignty, effectively removing the popular government of the South Korean people. Also note that real Democracy didn’t occur in South Korea until 1980, when the South Korean people revolted, good for them. Finally note that the U.S. Government actively supported, funded, and approved of the blood letting caused by anti-democratic forces.

Your fear based conjecture about what, might be, or would be, is typical of conservative thinking, it’s this kind of thinking that has caused the actual deaths of uncounted millions, and has affectively eliminated the possibilities of what might have been.

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By Marshall, October 23, 2010 at 3:16 pm Link to this comment

“a black man in America should condone blatant racial and religious profiling as a
reasonable way of navigating life in our diverse culture is tragic indeed”

He clearly wasn’t condoning it.  The author of this article just sacked his entire
premise with that statement which was apparently based on the sound bites rather
than the entire interview.  I’m surprised TD allows amateurs to post such drivel on
its pages.

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By kerryrose, October 23, 2010 at 2:22 pm Link to this comment

Fat Freddy

If you are not even aware of the continual Muslim bashing at Fox News of which Williams statement was part, you cannot judge the lack of ‘conversation’ against group consensus.

It has become one happy Muslim bashing party, and now Williams belongs to them.  They do not ‘discuss’ bigotry—- they enact it.

That is the answer to your question.

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By JDmysticDJ, October 23, 2010 at 2:05 pm Link to this comment

First let me correct my stupid error. It was Scalia and Rehnquist who were the hypocrites in 2000. Alito the hypocrite wasn’t serving in 2000.

Rico Suave

I’m not concerned with Nina Totenbags over emotional response to perceived cruelty by Carl Rove. Personally, I would like to see Carl Rove’s son get run over by a truck, but that would be an act of random violence, not poetic justice.

(I’m jesting, I would much rather see Carl Rove’s son run over Carl Rove with a truck.)

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By fearnotruth, October 23, 2010 at 1:59 pm Link to this comment

RE: ...we also know who hurled those planes into buildings on September
11.

schilling the 9/11 Myth, de rigueur - serious analysis reveals the OCT
(Official Conspiracy Theroy) to be the most unbelievable of all - unravels at every
turn: e.g.

Mid-August 2001: Hijacker Hanjour Still Not Skilled Enough to Fly Solo

Hani Hanjour. [Source: FBI]

9/11 hijacker Hani Hanjour goes to the Freeway Airport in Bowie, Maryland,
about 20 miles west of Washington. He wants to rent a single engine Cessna
airplane. However, when two instructors take him on three test runs, they find
he has trouble controlling and landing the plane. One instructor has to help him
land. Due to his poor skills, therefore, he is not allowed to rent one of their
planes without more lessons. Further, while Hanjour appears to have logged
over 600 hours of flying experience and possesses a valid pilot’s license
(though it has in fact expired), he refuses to provide contact information: He
gives no phone number and only gives his address as being a hotel in Laurel. In
spite of Hanjour’s lack of flying skills, chief instructor Marcel Bernard later
claims, “There’s no doubt in my mind that once [Flight 77] got going, he could
have pointed that plane at a building and hit it.” [CAPITAL NEWS, 9/19/2001;
GAZETTE (GREENBELT), 9/21/2001; NEWSDAY, 9/23/2001; WASHINGTON POST,
10/15/2001] However, on 9/11, in piloting Flight 77 into the Pentagon,
Hanjour would have needed to do much more than simply point the plane at a
target. Because Flight 77 at first seemed to overshoot its target, the
Washington Post will note that “the unidentified pilot executed a pivot so tight
that it reminded observers of a fighter jet maneuver. The plane circled 270
degrees to the right to approach the Pentagon from the west, whereupon Flight
77 fell below radar level.… Aviation sources said the plane was flown with
extraordinary skill, making it highly likely that a trained pilot was at the helm.”
[WASHINGTON POST, 9/12/2001] One Washington air traffic controller will later
comment, “The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all
thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that
was a military plane.” [ABC NEWS, 10/24/2001] One law enforcement official
who will study Flight 77’s descent after 9/11 will call it the work of “a great
talent… virtually a textbook turn and landing.” [WASHINGTON POST,
9/10/2002] Remarkably, the 9/11 Commission will overlook the numerous
accounts of Hanjour’s terrible piloting skills (see April 15, 1999 and January-
February 2001) and state that 9/11 mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohammed
assigned the Pentagon target specifically to Hanjour because he was “the
operation’s most experienced pilot.” [9/11 COMMISSION, 7/24/2004, PP. 530]
Entity Tags: Hani Hanjour, Marcel Bernard, 9/11 Commission, Khalid Shaikh
Mohammed
Timeline Tags: 9/11 Timeline
Category Tags: Hani Hanjour, Alleged Hijackers’ Flight Training

http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&the;_alleged_9/11_hijackers=haniHanjour

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By mack894, October 23, 2010 at 11:54 am Link to this comment

“Do you really think Juan Williams’s comments were intended to be “hateful”?
Actually, if you listen to the entire exchange, what he did was very clever. He
basically said, this is how I feel, and I know it is wrong. If you feel this way, you are
wrong, also. That’s what was implied. So, NPR fires him. “


So what you are saying is that Juan suffered a Shirley Sherrod type of situation,
that NPR didn’t llisten to the entire “lesson” that Juan was teaching and thus
distorted his message.  That Juan was saying he “used to feel this way” but he
fought those feelings, realized his was wrong, and now sits next to religious
Muslims on planes all the time.

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By rico, suave, October 23, 2010 at 11:47 am Link to this comment

JDMysticJD:

I knew it was just a matter of time before someone complained that defunding NPR would stifle free speech. By that logic, only speech supported by the government is truly free. NOBODY telling NPR what they can say or can’t say. Conservatives are only complaining because they are being ideological on the taxpayer’s dime. Can you honestly tell me that if NPR had the ideological slant of Fox News, you wouldn’t be screaming for its defunding?

“The Fox News Conglomerate was made possible by Government action…” That was quite an Orwellian assertion. Deregulation is the LACK of government action.

“... conservatives place their ideology and agendas above moral concerns, such as hypocrisy,...” Well JD, you have it just backwards: It’s just this episode- that fact that NPR placed its ideology and agenda above moral concerns, such as hypocrisy (e.g. Nina Totenberg’s free pass after wishing Karl Rove’s kid would die of AIDS) that has conservatives riled up.

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By blueworld, October 23, 2010 at 11:31 am Link to this comment

It’s amazing to me how many people are misreading Juan’s comments about identifying oneself as a Muslim.  The issue he was discussing was his FEELING about it.  Which he obviously disavowed & he doesn’t ACT on. 

I’m truly gratified that there are so many saintly souls among us who never have impure or unworthy thoughts or feelings to argue with.  I’m sure then, that as a former Roman Catholic who went to school with truly magnificent priests in my parish, I’m the ONLY Liberal who these days looks at a priest and wonders…

I’m glad it’s a Reverend that wrote this article.  The odor of sanctity is much more special that way.  Obviously we can only accept news & discourse from perfect people who either never HAVE imperfect thoughts or at least they’re sneaky enough not to be honest about them.

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By rico, suave, October 23, 2010 at 11:18 am Link to this comment

mack894:

“Juan needs to use the brain God gave him.”

Yeah, he needs to be smart enough to know what progressives would allow him to say.

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By JDmysticDJ, October 23, 2010 at 10:58 am Link to this comment

Fat Freddy

No one is advocating Government intervention to stifle free speech, unless it’s the Conservatives in Congress who want to make NPR ineligible for Government Grants, have been haranguing NPR for decades, and have advocated Government action to inhibit NPR’s right of free speech.

The most obvious example of bias in media is Fox News. The Fox News Conglomerate was made possible by Government action, which was part of the Conservative push for deregulation. The Obama administration has been critical of Fox News, but have they advocated Legislation to silence their critics? No, spokesmen for the Obama Administration have exercised their right of free speech.

It’s interesting that you cite a liberal Icon, Justice William O. Douglas, in order to advance your twisted logic. Are you aware that the last Supreme Court Judge to be threatened with impeachment was Douglas? Are you aware of which political philosophy and Political Party threatened that impeachment?

When discussing hypocrisy, it’s difficult to ignore Supreme Court Justices Alito and Rehnquist reversing their long history of advocacy for states rights, in order to end the ballot recount in Florida.

Again, I’ll reiterate my observation that conservatives place their ideology and agendas above moral concerns, such as hypocrisy, and that you contradict your most basic Libertarian ideals, when you criticize NPR for making a business decision you disagree with. Obviously conservatives lack the moral sophistication necessary to recognize hypocrisy, or they find avoiding hypocrisy to be inconvenient when attempting to advance their agendas.

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By mack894, October 23, 2010 at 10:48 am Link to this comment

“Williams said nothing more outrageous than what is written here again, and
again, and again and again.”


The problem is where is said these comments. Yes, you can write a web site
article or a post and say even more outrageous things at your own risk and
according to the site’s policies. He could have said it on Fox News, whose
policies support those kinds of statements. 

But when you use the public airwaves of a major media outlet like NBC or NPR
as an employee, you better check the handbook first. Rick Sanchez was fired for
his comments on jews; Don Imus, for his comments on nappy headed whores. 

R u saying anything goes? 

What Juan did was miss an opportunity (like Sanchez) to have a legitimate
discussion on a more valid topic—media influence on our perceptions of
events and people. If he had said that media images of radical Muslims have
made him nervous to be around Muslim people on planes, then we could have
had a discussion on the responsibilties of media in their selection of stories. It’s
still the case, though not as much, that the media would show only criminal
black people on the air, thus adding to the racism in this country. I recall
during the Anita Hill hearings when black people who were professionals and
middle class testified en masse, and the news people openly wondered where
all these educated black people had come from! 

Juan needs to use the brain God gave him.

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By RayLan, October 23, 2010 at 10:48 am Link to this comment

“No, it’s the modern progressive, far more than any Sarah Palin type, who is intolerant, who smothers free speech”
Your free speech has been smothered - oh dear- by progressives who engage in political correctness?
The progressives I know are pretty outspoken. Of course if you categorically cast anybody who derogates right wing bigotry as ‘politically correct’ you haven’t stifled free speech - only the ability to reason.

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By Fat Freddy, October 23, 2010 at 10:46 am Link to this comment

the worm

Yeah, NPR needs a few anarcho-syndicalists to really be considered left-wing.

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By the worm, October 23, 2010 at 10:34 am Link to this comment

Ingratiating yourself to Bill OReilly or serving as his punching bag, that’s what
you sign up for when you agree to appear.

Juan is a Fox news ideologue and of course will chose the ingratiating option.

If anyone was ‘surprised’, much less ‘shocked!’, they are simply pretending.

NPR is filled to over flowing with Right Wing ideologues pretending to be
‘experts’; simply count the number of NPR ‘experts’ from Wall Street Journal (
Rupert Murdoch/Fox media organ), Fox News (Juan Williams), The American
Enterprise Institute, George Mason, etc.

NPR has plenty more Right Wingers to fill the airwaves; along with Clear
Channel and Fox, we can add NPR.

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By rico, suave, October 23, 2010 at 10:27 am Link to this comment

If there remains any question about whether NPR is liberal or not, just look at the degree to which it is being defended on truthdig.

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By Fat Freddy, October 23, 2010 at 10:26 am Link to this comment

RayLan

That’s the bigot’s last gambit - a childish ‘you too’ It isn’t intolerant to not tolerate intolerance.

That was a “tongue in cheek” statement. But if that’s all you could find to criticize in all of my comments, I must be doing pretty well, huh? Would you like to challenge any of my serious comments?

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By rico, suave, October 23, 2010 at 10:01 am Link to this comment

Williams’ bona fides as a mainstream liberal and his attitudes about race and bigotry have been well established over the years. NOBODY at Fox, or who watches Fox, complains that he was a sellout and a shill for a liberal news organization.

Name one news personality who has gotten fired from any conservative news organization for saying something too politically correct or too “socialist” or too anti-Bush.

No, it’s the modern progressive, far more than any Sarah Palin type, who is intolerant, who smothers free speech in enervating political correctness and who, when the merit of his own argument fails, demands the silence of his opponent rather than go through the tedious exercise of rethinking his position, or possibly admitting that he’s wrong.

Anyone who opines about “what is appropriate” to say or not say completely gives his game away.

kerryrose:

You said you have never seen bigotry posted by progressives on truthdig. Let me recommend the likes of Arabian Sinbad and his ilk. Anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism are a huge hit on this website.

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By RayLan, October 23, 2010 at 9:39 am Link to this comment

“You are as intolerant as Jerry Falwell. “
That’s the bigot’s last gambit - a childish ‘you too’ It isn’t intolerant to not tolerate intolerance.
It’s like judging people who are judgmental - as being ...duh - judgmental. So the next twist of the disingenous screw judges those that judge those that are judgmental….yawn.

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By omop, October 23, 2010 at 8:38 am Link to this comment

Don Juan started it and got a $2 million dollar contract. So now its time to
express the same freedom of speech in using JW’s words:-

  “I mean, look, Bill, I’m not a bigot. You know the kind of books I’ve written
about freedom of speech in this country. But when I get on the plane, I got to tell
you, if I see people who are in JEWISH garb and I think, you know, they are
identifying themselves first and foremost as JEWS, I get worried. I get nervous.” -

    ” Those folks are telling their troops to use Palestinian children as shields”.

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By Fat Freddy, October 23, 2010 at 8:30 am Link to this comment

There has been months of fear and hate talk on Fox.

I wouldn’t know. The only programs I watch on Fox are John Stossel and Judge Andrew Napolitano, and I was a bit upset with the Judge a couple weeks ago for his little “lovefest” with Glen Beck.

But even so, that’s your opinion. Do you really think Juan Williams’s comments were intended to be “hateful”? Actually, if you listen to the entire exchange, what he did was very clever. He basically said, this is how I feel, and I know it is wrong. If you feel this way, you are wrong, also. That’s what was implied. So, NPR fires him. It just doesn’t make sense. Here you have someone going into the “lion’s den”, to tell people that they are wrong, and he gets fired for it. He was very tactful. That’s how you open a debate. Of course, there are people who just can’t be reached. I feel these people are few and far between. Most people can be reached, and the use of a little empathy can go a long way in gaining attention and trust. That’s all he was doing.

You still haven’t answered my question. How do you reach those people without trying to have an open, honest debate? Just sweep them under the rug and ignore them in hopes that they just disappear, so their fear and hate can stew, and boil over? Or do you engage them?

One more quote from Douglas:

A function of free speech…is to invite dispute. It may indeed serve its high purpose when it induces a condition of unrest, creates dissatisfaction with conditions as they are, or even stirs people to anger. Speech is often provacative and challenging. it may strike at prejudices and preconceptions and have profound unsettling effects as it presses for acceptance of an idea.

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By Go Right Young Man, October 23, 2010 at 8:10 am Link to this comment

There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery, then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved.” - Jesse Jackson

I mean, look, Bill, I’m not a bigot. You know the kind of books I’ve written about the civil rights movement in this country. But when I get on the plane, I got to tell you, if I see people who are in Muslim garb and I think, you know, they are identifying themselves first and foremost as Muslims, I get worried. I get nervous.” - Juan Williams

-

It is apparent from Juan Williams’s statements on O’Reilly that his feeling of worry or nervousness is painful to him. Most people feel the same way. We’re all aware that most identifiable Muslims on planes, like most young black men on city streets, are peaceful and unmenacing. But we also know who hurled those planes into buildings on September 11.

Over the years I’ve admired Juan’s journalism and his excellent books—a history of the civil rights movement, a biography of Justice Thurgood Marshall. Most of all I admired him for writing Enough: The Phony Leaders, Dead-End Movements, and Culture of Failure That Are Undermining Black America–and What We Can Do About It, which I think was a national service—and one that exposed him to a lot of criticism. He has faced all that with steadiness which is apparent in his angry but measured response to his firing today.

Reading between the lines of Juan’s statement and those of NPR officials, it’s apparent that NPR was moved to fire Juan because he irritates so many people in its audience. An interesting contrast: while many NPR listeners apparently could not stomach that Williams also appeared on Fox News. But it doesn’t seem that any perceptible number of Fox News viewers had any complaints that Williams also worked for NPR. The Fox audience seems to be more tolerant of diversity than the NPR audience.

-

It remains interesting to me, as evidenced on this very thread, that on this Web space - where Open-Minded, all-inclusive, liberalism reins - the level of hatred for different points of view is always Front and Center.

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By kerryrose, October 23, 2010 at 7:47 am Link to this comment

Fat Freddy

There has been months of fear and hate talk on Fox.  All it has done is indemnify and institutionalize the Muslim bashing Rather than an open debate about prejudice, the talk has been to justify and indemnify it which has accelerated Muslim bashing.  The cynical thing is that the talk has been targeted to produce fear and hate and draw people to a particular group and party.  The ‘conversation’ has been manipulation.

Now, because of Fox, all the ‘conversation’ has done is justify the fear and hate, and make it OK to condemn Muslims in general.  Think O’Reilly on The View.  Has it moved us forward?

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By Fat Freddy, October 23, 2010 at 7:42 am Link to this comment

3)Juan Williams should have been terminated the second he started doing business with FOX.

Great way to perpetuate the “us against them” “good vs evil”, mentality.

Liberals have lost the moral high ground, and are digging their own grave.

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By Fat Freddy, October 23, 2010 at 7:03 am Link to this comment

kerryrose

I’m going to go out on a limb here and assume a few things. You stated

we have a moral and ethical imperative to disdain ‘Hate’ speech and the taunting and accelerating of racially targeting an entire group of people.

I questioned “under whose authority”. Who determines what is hate speech? Who determines what is pornography? “I can’t describe it, but I know it when I see it.” That’s called community standards.

Here’s SC Justice Douglas on community standards

The standard of what offends ‘the common conscience of the community’ conflicts, in my judgment, with the command of the First Amendment. Any test that turns on what is offensive to the community’s standards is too loose, too capricious, too destructive of freedom of expression to be squared with the First Amendment.

Under the test [of community standards], juries [government agencies, media and sponsors] can censor, supress and punish what they don’t like…If the First Amendment guarantee of freedom of speech is to mean anything…it must allow protests against the moral code that the standard sets for the community.

I mean, really, what’s next? Speech codes on college campuses? Oh wait, we already have that.

Here’s Dave Barry:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tE3REvTJjXU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GEOudgLWlDo#!

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By Fat Freddy, October 23, 2010 at 6:37 am Link to this comment

While we have the ‘right’ to say what we like according to Free Speech, we have a moral and ethical imperative to disdain ‘Hate’ speech and the taunting and accelerating of racially targeting an entire group of people.

Under whose authority? Yours? You still didn’t answer my question. Tell me, how do you propose to counter the “fear and bigotry” without having an open, honest debate about it?

and then you go on a rant about progressive/liberals. Aren’t you easily stereotyping whole groups of people?

No. Because NPR is widely accepted as “liberal”.

Actually, I firmly believe that conservatives don’t see anything wrong with being hypocritical, or disingenuous, as long as those two despicable character flaws serve to advance their ideology and agendas.

If you had actually paid attention to what Williams was saying, you would see that he was trying to resolve an internal conflict within himself. He was trying to explain that his fear was irrational. But no, instead, we get the typical knee-jerk reaction from the left. It’s called intellectual sloth.

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By tedmurphy41, October 23, 2010 at 6:28 am Link to this comment

My personal conjecture is that there must be something wrong with your brain in the first place, in that you would even consider watching such utter, biased, infantile, drivel.

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By kerryrose, October 23, 2010 at 4:44 am Link to this comment

No Fat Freddy

While we have the ‘right’ to say what we like according to Free Speech, we have a moral and ethical imperative to disdain ‘Hate’ speech and the taunting and accelerating of racially targeting an entire group of people.

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By diamond, October 23, 2010 at 4:34 am Link to this comment

What will it take for the human race to learn once and for all that certain things have a certain outcome? The last time we demonized an entire religion they had this thing called the holocaust. Why would anyone in their right mind think that demonizing Muslims will end any differently? In fact it has gone exactly the same way: what are Bagram Air Base, Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay if they’re not concentration camps? And what is the difference between dragging Jews away in the middle of the night when they’ve committed no crime and locking them up in camps where they are beaten, tortured, experimented on and killed and doing very much the same to Muslims? The only difference is that Hitler didn’t get off on having young boys sodomized in front of their mothers or on putting women’s panties on people’s heads or pretending to electrocute them. And who honestly believes that if Specialist Joseph Darby hadn’t put those photos on the internet that the ‘experiment’ that was going on in Abu Ghraib wouldn’t have ended in mass murder? It’s a comment on the times we live in that Darby had to move out of his house and leave the town he lived in because of the death threats he was getting.

Everything didn’t change after 9/11: it’s just that civil liberties and the rule of law took a bullet to the head, as did so many Iraqis and Afghanis. None of this was accidental.

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By fearnotruth, October 23, 2010 at 3:10 am Link to this comment

...NPR these days…can’t be trusted any more than the “MSM.”

NPR is the MSM, as much as any other Corporate-funded media, from all of
which whenever you think you’re getting the whole story, you’re always getting
a limited hangout, that leaves most believing what they hear.

What makes anyone think anything has really changed since we heard this: “The
Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major
media.” - William Colby - Director of the CIA (1973-76)

Was he talking about on-air personalities? Mostly, probably not; probably
editors, executives - those who decide just how limited the hangouts. They
have to do it. Could the citizenry at large handle the truth? Or more to the
point, could the system handle the citizenry if they knew it?

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By mrfreeze, October 23, 2010 at 12:02 am Link to this comment

I have been a NPR listener since 1979. My local affiliate, KUOW in Seattle, has some of the best LOCAL programming in America. Unfortunately, as JDmysticDJ points out, most of the so-called reporters and journalists on the national payroll should be terminated or retire. The only host worth his/her salt is Robert Siegel who hasn’t yet been defanged. Also:

1) Anyone who believes that NPR is “liberal” hasn’t been paying attention. NPR has been drifting well into right-of-center reporting since the early days of Reagan. The veritable “Bush lovefest” that went on for 8 long years was truly disturbing.
2)Tune into NPR on most days and you’ll hear interviews with far more conservative economists, politicians and pundits than those who are liberal.
3)Juan Williams should have been terminated the second he started doing business with FOX.

Frankly, I’ve been listening far less to NPR these days because it can’t be trusted any more than the “MSM.”

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By SteveL, October 22, 2010 at 11:43 pm Link to this comment

He and silly Sarah will make a good couple

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By Go Right Young Man, October 22, 2010 at 11:16 pm Link to this comment

kerryrose, - “I am intolerant of hate and fear masquerading as an opinion or as worthy discourse.”

-

You don’t see it.  It is you spreading the hate and fear.  Fear and hate of those unlike yourself.  You make demons of them. 

On the other hand you argue against precisely the same behavior.

Interesting.

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By FiftyGigs, October 22, 2010 at 11:08 pm Link to this comment

“Is it? NPR gets government funding.”

NPR also gets private donations, so, yes, it is free to run its business the way it wants.

“And, what have the Democrats done for you, lately?”

Well, for starters, Democrats have extended health insurance protection for my family and millions of others with uninsured children who were just a stoplight-runner away from possibly having their lives ruined because Republicans crave profit.

Democrats forced my bank to cut the fees it charges me.

Democrats reduced my taxes.

Democrats got my nephew back from Iraq.

Good enough? Want more examples?

“Perhaps you need to learn what freedom really means, and take a trip to visit the Free State Project in New Hampshire.”

So tempting.

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By JDmysticDJ, October 22, 2010 at 10:59 pm Link to this comment

Fat Freddy

Uh, let’s see. You defend Juan Williams with the following quotation,

“Williams could not have been more clear.  He said that, contrary to his common human emotions, whole groups of people cannot be stereotyped and categorized so easily.”

and then you go on a rant about progressive/liberals. Aren’t you easily stereotyping whole groups of people?

One of the many differences between liberals and conservatives is that liberals can identify their hypocrisy. Apparently conservatives can not.

Actually, I firmly believe that conservatives don’t see anything wrong with being hypocritical, or disingenuous, as long as those two despicable character flaws serve to advance their ideology and agendas.

Am I being hypocritical, no I’ll tell you up front, I have nothing but disgust for the current collection of morally retarded reprobates who call themselves conservatives, but I’ll keep an open mind, as soon as I come across a conservative who’s not a moral retard, I’ll change my opinion, but don’t hold your breath waiting for that to happen.

Fox news fired two journalists who refused to lie on air and falsify data. The Conservative Supreme Court ruled that Fox news had every legal right to fire the two. Now Fox news has gone into a tizzy about NPR firing williams. Are we seeing a pattern here?

Actually, I’m not too concerned about this issue, NPR was a reliable news provider in the 80’s, but they got caught up in the National Endowment for the Arts Piss Christ imbroglio, and NPR became a focus of conservative attack. NPR sold out, and was restructured. Now they bend over backwards to avoid a perception of bias. They bend over backwards so far that the truth can not be reported, and conservative lies can not be revealed.

I still listen to “Car Talk” and “Wait, Wait, Don’t Tell Me,” (That’s a comedy quiz show, not a plea from a frantic military recruiter,) on Saturday mornings, and I’m a long time listener to “Prairie Home Companion” but as for as news goes forget it, NPR News has become boring, bland, and effectively biased.

I just heard that a liberal think tank released a study showing that the majority of NPR broadcasters were conservative in perspective. That study flies in the face of conventional wisdom, but I agree completely with the conclusion of that study.

Mora Liasson irritates me to no end, Scott Simon seems harmless, until one examines the questions he asks, and when Juan Williams is on the air, I have to turn him off in order to avoid vomiting,(And I’ve got a strong stomach.) This perception of NPR’s liberalism must be a result of their liberated artsy fartsy elitism, because it can not rationally be deduced from their political perspective.

Another example of your obvious hypocrisy would be related to Juan William’s firing. Don’t you as a Libertarian/Conservative, whatever, believe that employers have a right to fire, outsource jobs etc. without outside interference. Conservatives now want to withdraw the NPR’s eligibility for Government Grants. No big deal, Government Grants make up less than five percent of their total funding.

Finally, I’ll comment that Juan Williams is a journalistic version of Joe Lieberman. Neither one of the two could be considered to be from the Left by any person with the slightest degree of political acuity. I’ll add my opinion that both of them are/were repulsive little dweebs that needed to hurry home from school in order to avoid feelings of insecurity when they were young. Well that’s kind of cruel, isn’t it? Really, I only wish them to experience the outer ring of Dante’s inferno.

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By Fat Freddy, October 22, 2010 at 9:59 pm Link to this comment

I am intolerant of hate and fear masquerading as an opinion or as worthy discourse.

No, I think you are just fucking lazy. Yes, it’s monotonous to keep explaining the irrationality of fear, bigotry, and racism, but unfortunately, it’s very necessary.

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By Fat Freddy, October 22, 2010 at 9:47 pm Link to this comment

Do I need to quote Justice William O Douglas?

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By Fat Freddy, October 22, 2010 at 9:44 pm Link to this comment

In what society is the expression of fear and bigotry accepted, and deemed a ‘conversation.’

Ours. It’s called Freedom of Speech

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By kerryrose, October 22, 2010 at 9:42 pm Link to this comment

Fat Freddy

I am intolerant of hate and fear masquerading as an opinion or as worthy discourse.

In what society is the expression of fear and bigotry accepted, and deemed a ‘conversation.’

Give me a break.

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By Fat Freddy, October 22, 2010 at 9:38 pm Link to this comment

kerryrose

You are as intolerant as Jerry Falwell.

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By Fat Freddy, October 22, 2010 at 9:36 pm Link to this comment

kerryrose,

Everybody has the right to express their opinion. Fear is an instinctive human emotion, thus a valid opinion, whether real or imagined. Opinions based on emotions do not carry as much weight as ones based on logic, but they are still valid, and must be countered with logic, not punishment. For punishment leads to misgivings and resentments.

Tell me, how do you propose to counter the “fear and bigotry” without having an open, honest debate about it? Should we just start locking people up in prison? You’d like that, wouldn’t you? What other parts of the Constitution would you like to wipe your ass with?

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By kerryrose, October 22, 2010 at 9:03 pm Link to this comment

Fat Freddy

Bigotry and fear about Muslims is not an opinion, and it has gotten more talk-time than it deserves already.  He is a journalist and does not have the right to vomit his personal fear crap on the air to an already hate and fear filled society.

Just as Helen Thomas had no right to express her ‘opinion.’

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By Fat Freddy, October 22, 2010 at 8:19 pm Link to this comment

Williams could not have been more clear.  He said that, contrary to his common human emotions, whole groups of people cannot be stereotyped and categorized so easily.

^THIS^

This is exactly the conversation we should be having in this country. Unfortunately, it’s perfectly clear to me that liberal/progressives wish to punish people for expressing their opinions. Thus, blocking the means for open, honest debate. Way to go liberals. Let’s punish everybody for speaking their minds. It takes great courage to express one’s opinions, publicly. Instead of NPR using this opportunity to open a discussion, they chose to punish Mr Williams. Liberal/progressives are becoming more and more intolerant of others simply expressing theit views, whether right or wrong. Almost as intolerant as Christian Conservatives. You are in good company in my book, liberals. I became a liberal way back in the 80s as a result of religious and social intolerance. I am no longer a liberal because of their intellectual intolerance, sloth and dishonesty.

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By Fat Freddy, October 22, 2010 at 7:56 pm Link to this comment

ardee

So, how much of the money from the affiliates comes from state governments? How much money does, say NJN, an affiliate of NPR get from the State of NJ, which contributes to NPR? WHYY and Pennsylvania? It’s not just the federal government that supports NPR.

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By kerryrose, October 22, 2010 at 7:49 pm Link to this comment

rico

Progressives beginning a war… hmmm… it sounds too good to be true.

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By fearnotruth, October 22, 2010 at 7:42 pm Link to this comment

WOW - Faisal Shahzad, that the “war with Muslims is just beginning”. AND
since 9/11, al-Qaida and other terrorist groups ... commit their heinous deeds.
Remember the shoe bomber, Richard Reid (Afro-Anglo descent)? Remember the
underwear bomber, Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, from Nigeria?

PATSIES one and all! Forget the L-vs-R nonsense in this story, Williams
has clearly for decades been either a rich asset or a useful fool - please get over
the duping, folks - putting these 2 shills together is dog and pony show
probably dreamed up as mid-term project by some agent in training.

2 things to never forget:

1. “Deception is a state of mind and the mind of the state.” - James Jesus
Angelton - Director of CIA Counter Intelligence (1954-74)

2. “The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the
major media.” - William Colby - Director of the CIA (1973-76)

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By kerryrose, October 22, 2010 at 7:11 pm Link to this comment

GRYM

I have never read outright bigotry on this site.  I have felt and read on TD contempt for phonies, racists, and enablers in the political sphere.

Contempt and bigotry are two very different things.

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By Go Right Young Man, October 22, 2010 at 6:39 pm Link to this comment

kerryrose, October 22 at 8:43 pm


Here’s my problem.  You and everyone else can plainly see that what you are complaining about in Juan Williams is identical to the overwhelming majority of comments on this very Web space directed toward Tea protesters, conservatives, republicans, Blue Dogs and little old white Christian ladies on a daily basis.  Almost no one complains or is outraged by this.  Each of the above are treated as “non people” here on TruthDig.  Williams said nothing more outrageous than what is written here again, and again, and again and again.

With very few exceptions the outrage over what Mr. Williams said is, well, disingenuous at best.

-

Williams could not have been more clear.  He said that, contrary to his common human emotions, whole groups of people cannot be stereotyped and categorized so easily.  Just as I have written here a few hundred times.

What did Rev. Madison Shockley write in the first sentence of his article?  “Juan Williams is living evidence that watching too much Fox News will rot your brain.

The first sentence sets up everything to follow, correct?  It’s plain to see that this is not about what Williams said at all.  For Rev. Shockly it’s about FOX News.  I suspect it’s the same for most here.

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By rico, suave, October 22, 2010 at 5:55 pm Link to this comment

cyrena: Does anyone’s attire “freak you out”? Other than a policeman’s or soldier’s uniform I mean?

fiftygigs: “Conservatives are organizing corporations to overwhelm the media messaging… blah, blah, blah… Conservatives are murdering doctors.”

Ahhhhh, that’s hilarious.

I’m really enjoying all the profiling you progressives are doing on Juan Williams. You’ve got him all figured out don’t you?

Revshock: Were you serious, or was that article a parody? No, really? Unfortunately, the comments are more thoughful than your article, which sets the bar extremely low.

davewrite: Are you a cartoon character, or did you just forget to take your lithium?

I’m feeling a lot of hatred here at truthdig. Hatred leads to war you know. It’s an issue which is being hotly debated (har-har-har) on another thread.

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By ardee, October 22, 2010 at 5:31 pm Link to this comment

For Fat Freddy
Federal grants provide less than 2 percent — or $3.3 million — of NPR’s $166 million annual budget. It is funded primarily by its affiliates, corporate sponsors and major donors. Federal funding of public media has long been questioned by some in Congress.


KerryRose
Schiller said Thursday that Williams had veered from journalistic ethics several times before Monday’s comment Further she noted that Williams opinion was between him and his psychiatrist and publicist. She later regretted that reference.

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By mack894, October 22, 2010 at 5:26 pm Link to this comment

Juan Williams, author of the critically acclaimed Eyes on the Prize,
a history of the civil rights movement kicks in with a comment that
is so discriminatory that I must assume he wrote the book for
money and not from the heart. Over the years, I’ve failed to
reconcile the author with the faux news commentator, and this
incident just adds to the distortion.

I can only surmise that he’s found new friends over there at f-up
news and has become alienated from his old communities as a
result. He’s beginning to remind me of that Dave Chapelle skit
when Dave plays a blind Klansman who doesn’t know he’s black. If
you’ve never seen it, try to find it on utube—it’s a riot (no pun int)

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By kerryrose, October 22, 2010 at 4:43 pm Link to this comment

Why a great majority of Americans can scream that the firing of Williams is unfair is completely beyond me.

Has Fox so distored the standards of journalism that outright bigotry, speaking of Muslims as if they are ‘nonpeople’ and just a walking stereotype is considered OK?

No one has suggested that Williams has an emotional problem which needs to be addressed, and that is NOT OK to just vilify an entire people.

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By GoyToy, October 22, 2010 at 3:50 pm Link to this comment

Balkas:

Wow! You’re an expert in three religions? Impressive. Would you be so kind as to recommend me one or more of your books? Much appreciated (moron!).

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By Hammond Eggs, October 22, 2010 at 3:37 pm Link to this comment

Juan Williams, like Thomas Friedman or David Broder, is a master of what is currently considered to be the obvious.  That’s how you get ahead in the thoroughly corrupt world of the MSM. He just got a $2,000,000 deal from Fucks News.  Don’t feel too sorry for him.  NPR, like a small market, last place baseball team, could never pay him that much.

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By berniem, October 22, 2010 at 2:58 pm Link to this comment

Listen folks. brother Juan is not alone in his cerebral disintergration. The republican party as well as 75-80% of the democrats along with 40%+ of the population of this country suffer from the same malady. If such were not the case a mindless propaganda atrocity like Fox “News” would be laughed off the air if indeed it had ever been born! This nation has become so disgustingly narcassistic, dogmatic, greedy, and short-sighted that the rest of the world not yet under it’s overbearing military thumb cannot but look upon this country with disdain. The only thing preventing the rest of the civilized world from punitively sanctioning this country is it’s possesion of an abundance of nuclear weapons and an apocalypic military hierarchy potentially crazy enough to use them. Believe me, its not the wonderful American economy that keeps the rest of humanity enthralled; I’m sure that our oh, so patriotic transnational corporations would have no problem being the first rats off this sinking ship if disaster would loom. Even that true all-American boy, Eric Prince, has relocated his stuff elsewhere!

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By RayLan, October 22, 2010 at 2:30 pm Link to this comment

The Right make even political correctness into an anti-liberal weapon - twist it to their hateful purpose - turning on other members of their own fox hole.
To call this hypocrisy is to underestimate the strategy - it is ruthlessness stripped of any morally or socially appropriate interests that plays ethics against itself. They are capable of saying anything in complete contradiction without even flinching.

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By davewrite, October 22, 2010 at 2:02 pm Link to this comment

Not a week passes that I don’t witness more hatred,
bigotry, and potential violence from Tea Party types
than I have American Muslims in my entire life. Imagine
if like us, Muslims had committed genocide on the
native population, vaporized entire cities with A-
bombs, napalmed millions in Vietnam, helped Israelis
steal Palestine after a 1900-year absence, supplied
Saddam Hussein with NBC (under Reagan), enslaved people
of color, and stolen the Western states from what was
Mexico. And that’s just for openers.

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By WriterOnTheStorm, October 22, 2010 at 12:18 pm Link to this comment

Fear short-circuits critical thinking once again. And once again, the right is there
to milk it for all it’s worth.

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