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This Is What Resistance Looks Like

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Posted on Apr 4, 2011
AP / Reed Saxon

A woman who sympathizes with people whose homes have been foreclosed is arrested at a protest outside a Chase bank in Los Angeles.

By Chris Hedges

We will not halt the laying off of teachers and other public employees, the slashing of unemployment benefits, the closing of public libraries, the reduction of student loans, the foreclosures, the gutting of public education and early childhood programs or the dismantling of basic social services such as heating assistance for the elderly until we start to carry out sustained acts of civil disobedience against the financial institutions responsible for our debacle. The banks and Wall Street, which have erected the corporate state to serve their interests at our expense, caused the financial crisis. The bankers and their lobbyists crafted tax havens that account for up to $1 trillion in tax revenue lost every decade. They rewrote tax laws so the nation’s most profitable corporations, including Bank of America, could avoid paying any federal taxes. They engaged in massive fraud and deception that wiped out an estimated $40 trillion in global wealth. The banks are the ones that should be made to pay for the financial collapse. Not us. And for this reason at 11 a.m. April 15 I will join protesters in Union Square in New York City in front of the Bank of America.

“The political process no longer works,” Kevin Zeese, the director of Prosperity Agenda and one of the organizers of the April 15 event, told me. “The economy is controlled by a handful of economic elites. The necessities of most Americans are no longer being met. The only way to change this is to shift the power to a culture of resistance. This will be the first in a series of events we will organize to help give people control of their economic and political life.”

If you are among the one in six workers in this country who does not have a job, if you are among the some 6 million people who have lost their homes to repossessions, if you are among the many hundreds of thousands of people who went bankrupt last year because they could not pay their medical bills or if you have simply had enough of the current kleptocracy, join us in Union Square Park for the “Sounds of Resistance Concert,” which will feature political hip-hop/rock powerhouse Junkyard Empire with Broadcast Live and Sketch the Cataclysm. The organizers have set up a website, and there’s more information on their Facebook page.

We will picket the Union Square branch of Bank of America, one of the major financial institutions responsible for the theft of roughly $17 trillion in wages, savings and retirement benefits taken from ordinary citizens. We will build a miniature cardboard community that will include what we should have—good public libraries, free health clinics, banks that have been converted into credit unions, free and well-funded public schools and public universities, and shuttered recruiting centers (young men and women should not have to go to Iraq and Afghanistan as soldiers or Marines to find a job with health care). We will call for an end to all foreclosures and bank repossessions, a breaking up of the huge banking monopolies, a fair system of taxation and a government that is accountable to the people.

The 10 major banks, which control 60 percent of the economy, determine how our legislative bills are written, how our courts rule, how we frame our public debates on the airwaves, who is elected to office and how we are governed. The phrase consent of the governed has been turned by our two major political parties into a cruel joke. There is no way to vote against the interests of Goldman Sachs. And the faster these banks and huge corporations are broken up and regulated, the sooner we will become free.

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Bank of America is one of the worst. It did not pay any federal taxes last year or the year before. It is currently one of the most aggressive banks in seizing homes, at times using private security teams that carry out brutal home invasions to toss families into the street. The bank refuses to lend small business people and consumers the billions in government money it was handed. It has returned with a vengeance to the flagrant criminal activity and speculation that created the meltdown, behavior made possible because the government refuses to institute effective sanctions or control from regulators, legislators or the courts. Bank of America, like most of the banks that peddled garbage to small shareholders, routinely hid its massive losses through a creative accounting device it called “repurchase agreements.” It used these “repos” during the financial collapse to temporarily erase losses from the books by transferring toxic debt to dummy firms before public filings had to be made. It is called fraud. And Bank of America is very good at it.

US Uncut, which will be involved in the April 15 demonstration in New York, carried out 50 protests outside Bank of America branches and offices on Feb. 26. UK Uncut, a British version of the group, produced this video guide to launching a “bail-in” in your neighborhood.

Civil disobedience, such as that described in the bail-in video or the upcoming protest in Union Square, is the only tool we have left. A fourth of the country’s largest corporations—including General Electric, ExxonMobil and Bank of America—paid no federal income taxes in 2010. But at the same time these corporations operate as if they have a divine right to hundreds of billions in taxpayer subsidies. Bank of America was handed $45 billion—that is billion with a B—in federal bailout funds. Bank of America takes this money—money you and I paid in taxes—and hides it along with its profits in some 115 offshore accounts to avoid paying taxes. One assumes the bank’s legions of accountants are busy making sure the corporation will not pay federal taxes again this year. Imagine if you or I tried that.


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Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, May 10, 2011 at 11:20 am Link to this comment

I’ve found it is difficult to get passed MarthaA‘s way of speaking and thinking. Too much sloganeering not enough comprehensive explanation to find clarity. But now and again I still try. A foolish errand really. But good luck if you can before you too are accused of being some kind of plant or working for a “boiler room” like I have been.

Here is my answer to your question. It is first and foremost structural. The present system has been compromised by the monied elite’s power and influence. Our gov’t is not only riddled with their agents, but one must be them to get elected in many cases. The very gov’t itself now can’t operate without their aid since they have been insinuated into its structure. Just look at our military for example. They have also been undermining our gov’t and our economy in a bid to wreck our middle class. After the direct approach barely failed in 1934 (FDR didn’t punish them at all) they decided after the end of the war to use the indirect way. It wasn’t till 1980 that they got their way with Ronald Wilson Reagan who started the ball rolling and put us into a permanent debtor status.

With both parties in their grip. The Democrats still have many not on board burt they don’t run the party which is why a reformer Kucinich, the real deal to Obama‘s posturing, was made sure to be drummed out with a propaganda blitz by the leadership of the Democrats. You see our problem?

With only two choices allowed, you just try with a 3rd party and see how far you will get, we have a Moncton’s Choice. Where you are given two choices made by someone else. Even if there are better ones (good) out there you only have their evils to chose from. So you vote for the poison straight up or the one with sugar in it like we have now. Worse? Just look at what Obama has done to protect the previous administration and continue, strengthen and increase their policies. Does this help you any John Best?

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, May 10, 2011 at 10:33 am Link to this comment

MArthA, you’re not only intentionally obtuse, your ‘answer’ is so very general that it is useless, and so lacking in any practical value that it bores me.  A quick skim reveals there is nothing of interest, and I move on.  But still, I think you’ll not get any more of my time.  Cut ‘er loose!

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MarthaA's avatar

By MarthaA, May 10, 2011 at 9:52 am Link to this comment

Well, Anarcissie, I think that all can agree that your post did
not register on the enlight-o-meter.  But, that is alright, because
sleepers are allowed.  Someone has to man up on Henry David
Thoreau’s bog hoe as a “wading web footed bog trotter.”

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MarthaA's avatar

By MarthaA, May 10, 2011 at 9:40 am Link to this comment

John Best, May 10 at 8:38 am,

The answer to your 1st question is as I specified May 7 at 7:03
am, and you noted:

Answer: Sublation of community and private interests.

Here is your question so that you will not be confused in thinking
that I do not understand your question:

”“What are the specific underlying political, psychological and
socio-economic, factors which seem to hinder any effort at guiding
mankind toward a sustainable technology-population balance?””
—John Best, May 9 at 11:33 pm

The answer to your 2nd question is the same as the 1st question;
the absence of sublated understanding and awareness and an
overwhelming desire to argue and contend over the absolute
separateness of ideological definition that proceeds from baseless
presupposition which is uncritically and unthinkingly adopted.

I personally have been dealing with this problem for 10 years and
it is getting really old.  As President Obama says, “It’s time for a
change.”

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Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, May 10, 2011 at 8:45 am Link to this comment

I’m certainly not an expert on sublation, or anything else Hegelian.  I find Hegel unreadable.  However, some of my acquaintances think reading Hegel is like eating ice cream.  There’s no accounting for taste.

I hesitated to give any particular URLs or book titles in regard to Hegel precisely because I am such a non-expert.  However, a Google search will doubtless yield many thousands.  I’d suggest starting by looking at the Wikipedia article which may indeed be ‘wrong’ but will at least provide a compendium of popular prejudices.

Back in my school days in the Middle Ages, we used to say ‘aufgehoben’ (the past passive participle of aufheben) to humorously denote something unmentionable and now off the board—canceled, taken up, gone and officially forgotten, like a fixed traffic ticket.  It’s a word of many uses, as you will find if you look at a German dictionary.  Sublation, on the other hand, used to mean ‘A flotation method in which the material to be separated is adsorbed on the surface of gas bubbles in a liquid and is collected on an upper layer of an immiscible liquid’.  Sounds like a lot more fun than most philosophy.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, May 10, 2011 at 8:38 am Link to this comment

MarthA, What are you doing here?  You’re obviously so far and away above us mere mortals.  I beg humbly your forgiveness for asking a simple question.

If I may dare to refresh your memory, I’ve skipped way. way down through a ton of BS to get to a simple question:
John Best, May 6 at 3:41 am Question:
“On another topic, the elephant in the room, it seems so few of the many many articles by left, right or center wing writers deal with the mother of all problems, the population situation.  Has Chris or anyone dug deeply into it?”
By MarthaA, May 7 at 7:03 am Answer: 
Sublation of community and private interests.

Look where that ended up.  Is that what you’re here for?  I’ll give you the same false choice you gave me…...  Do you lack the ability to speak plainly?  Or, are you trying to confound the group? 
I’m not going to argue on you terms, you clearly have no interest examining or shedding light on the population question I posed, at least not in a way that respect some reasonable level of intellect. Who’s the disingenuous one?

Now, this is your last shot: I’ll rephrase the original question, and let’s just see if you can add anything constructive to the conversation.  The re-phrased question is: “What are the specific underlying political, psychological and socio-economic, factors which seem to hinder any effort at guiding mankind toward a sustainable technology-population balance?”  Simple enough.

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MarthaA's avatar

By MarthaA, May 10, 2011 at 7:04 am Link to this comment

John Best, May 9 at 11:33 pm,

Your post presents a shallow understanding and awareness of the
sublated unity of formulaic balance x=x mathematica, and most
likely is intended to relate this seminal concept to nothing more
than philosophy. 

All of science and science’s scientific method is based upon a
sublated unity of formulaic balance, x=x, mathematica; this seminal
concept structurally reduced from gestalt perception, to nothing
more than a structural perception of philosophy is shallow
understanding and awareness. 

It is a ludicrous and shallow level of understanding and awareness
that you are claiming, and you are doing so either ingenuously or
disingenuously.

If you are ingenuous in your assertions of understanding and
awareness, you are making your assertions as a foolish person
that is most likely acting on uneducated belief to condemn what
you do not have the ability to understand; this is resultant, most
likely, from culture at the zero point, the familiarity of your own
personal experience in the absence of knowledge of the cyclical
nature of culture.

If you are disingenuous in your assertions of understanding and
awareness, then you are acting as a sophist that is trying to lead
others to accept framing that promotes a false sense of
understanding, awareness, and advantage in order to obtain
benefit from leading others to accept a false sense of
understanding, awareness, and advantage.

Which is it?  Are you a silly foolish person or a sophist?  You tell
me.  You are the one using Aldous Huxley as an avatar.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, May 9, 2011 at 11:33 pm Link to this comment

They are indeed ‘sound bites’, and slogans, but that is what works for the ‘common population’.  The parasites have proven that it is the only technique that works.  If the technique is simply used to illuminate the theft, the usury, it might do some good. 

‘Usury’ is a good old word people understand.  ‘Parasites’ works, but is still to general.  Watch out though as soon as you come up with a perfect killer word for ‘parasites’, somebody will turn it back against you using the right wing media.  There is no equivalent on the left.  Apologies for the right-left model, I hate it.  The two-option scenario is also a rule or perception which serves the parasites.

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MarthaA's avatar

By MarthaA, May 9, 2011 at 11:09 pm Link to this comment

Gary Mont, May 9 at 9:10 pm,

Are you in a paid New Democrat or a Republican boiler room? I
never expected any agreement.  It is strange that others there
agree, who are the others, if you aren’t in a paid boiler room trying
to shut me up by agreement.  Tell me, what have you understood
100%?

For representation of the Common Population, there has to be a
complete about face, as the Middle Class represents itself, the
Elite Capitalists Class represents itself and the Common
Population Class and Culture, the majority population, gets no
representation whatsoever.  It is not hard to represent the
Common Population, if one truly wants to represent the Common
Population, as they are the majority population and there are
plenty of intelligent people in the majority population, the same
way you supposedly understood, they will understand.

Awareness will come if one will keep putting the proper
information forth for the public to hear.  People aren’t stupid, they
have been propagandized against their best interest.  The
Common Population will have to become class and culturally self
aware as a matter of their own desire, but it is my job and anyone
else’s job that want the Common Population to become class and
culturally aware to provide insight and tools to enable class and
cultural self awareness in the Common Population, instead of Jerry
Springer crap.  If the tools and truth are put before the Common
Population they will become aware and unify and educate
themselves.

It isn’t a matter of you training the Common Population, of course
you can’t train the whole Common Population, but when the truth
is told to them along with insight and tools, the butterfly effect will
take place.  It will not happen overnight, but it will happen.

The eventual result that I expect from the Common Population
becoming class and culturally self aware is that they will agitate,
demonstrate and do whatever is necessary to achieve equal
representation in the making, enforcing, and benefit of legislated
law and order in the United States as equal class and cultural
participants along with the American Aristocracy and the American
Middle Class.

Just because the Common Population become class and culturally
aware doesn’t mean that there won’t be an American Aristocracy
and an American Middle Class, it only means that the majority
population will be an equal partner in the making and enforcing of
legislated law and order in the United States along with the
American Aristocracy and the American Middle Class.  No matter
what happens, with the majority population having a say in what
happens to their own class and culture will make remarkable
change. It is my prayer that the butterfly will move fast.

One solution is for the majority population to take over the
Democratic Party, kick out all the New Democrats, Neo Liberals,
Conservatives and Moderates and work toward getting more
equal political parties as needed, so that lack of representation of
all the population in the United States will not happen again. 
Change doesn’t happen fast, but change will happen if the
Common Population, the majority population become self aware of
their part in the Common Population Class and Culture so that
representatives of the Common Population as a class and culture
can be voted in to represent the Common Population as a class
and culture the same as the other two classes and cultures.

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MarthaA's avatar

By MarthaA, May 9, 2011 at 9:41 pm Link to this comment

Gary Mont, May 9 at 8:44 pm,

“How would YOU go about making the Majority Common
Population aware that they are the Majority Common Population?”
—Gary Mont, May 9 at 8:44 pm

The Common Population will have to become class and culturally
self aware as a matter of desire.  I am providing insight and tools
to enable class and cultural self awareness in the Common
Population, because I am a member of the Common Population’s
Class and Culture and it is in the best interest of me and mine for
the Common Population to be aware of their class and culture, but
there is no way I can make them do it.  It is not my function to
even try to force the process in any way—only inform.  Only the
law can make another person submit.  My only interest is in the
Common Population as a class and culture being a part of making
and enforcing of legislated law and order to which the Common
Population are forced by law to submit.

“And what exactly do you expect as a result from the sudden
realization by the Majority Common Population that they are the
Majority Common Population.”
—Gary Mont, May 9 at 8:44
pm

I do not expect sudden realization of self awareness of class and
culture in the Common Population, as YOU say.

The eventual result that I expect, as a result of self awareness of
class and culture in the Common Population, is that the Common
Population will agitate, demonstrate, and do whatever is
necessary to achieve EQUAL representation in the making,
enforcing, and benefit of legislated law and order in the United
States as EQUAL class and cultural participants along with the
American Aristocracy and the American Middle Class.

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Gary Mont's avatar

By Gary Mont, May 9, 2011 at 9:10 pm Link to this comment

MarthaA:You say the common population all have no culture, but I didn’t say that, there are those with no culture, which should not be encouraged, but as a general rule the majority population are low culture—not no culture.

Ok MarthaA, I understood this whole post, and agree with you as to the causes of today’s loss of representation 100%. Please forgive my lack of understanding and my naturally snarky personality.

Everything you have posted on this topic now makes exquisite sense, thank you.

Others here are saying the same thing but in different ways - sophist ways you might say, but they still don’t know how to go about the unification and education of the Majority Common Population either.

What is needed now are suggestions as to how this can be accomplished - how can a population with little or no combined cultural comprehension and almost no social cohesion as a group, be literally trained to be as wise and as devious as the ruling class??

What commonality could be employed to cause such a grassroots revolution as the necessary “commoner to intelligensia transformation” overnight - for there is not a lot of time left methinks.

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MarthaA's avatar

By MarthaA, May 9, 2011 at 8:59 pm Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt, May 9 at 3:39 pm,

Sophistry is taught to the rich and famous.  They are schooled in
the use of sophistry and after their schooling they become
sophisticated and can talk lies with the best, but the common
populace never get that schooling in the public domain.  I have
been learning how much sophistry is used against the common
populace and try to get the word out for average people to
understand what it is, if you think that is me being a sophist, so be
it.

Dialectic is expressed in the language of mathematica as Hegel
noted.  Do you deny mathematica and the causal relationship of
x=x that it is based upon?  If you do, you have defined yourself as
being incapable of rational comprehension, a conclusion that I
have previously made relative to your dialog on this Truthdig
forum, and a conclusion that you seem intent on confirming.

Hegel based philosophical conclusions on mathematica, and
mathematica in its causal form is what dialectic is based upon,
the logic of cause and effect.

What you choose to believe is not a rational or a logical choice,
and it is up to you; if you choose belief that is irrational and
illogical and the pursuit of sophism, that is your choice and I will
not even try to convince you otherwise.

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Gary Mont's avatar

By Gary Mont, May 9, 2011 at 8:44 pm Link to this comment

John Best:I just want MarthA to say what she is trying to say without the word ‘sublation’.

I dislike discussions where one party gets to choose the meanings of the words being used, and can change the meanings on a whim.

I think, for this poster to win points, there is a need to use terminology that has no solid meaning and can be altered on the fly. The arguement must remain entirely philosophical because that is the poster’s forte apparently.

I do have to wonder though, if it has ever occurred to this version of MarthaA, that Hegel might be 100% wrong, or even 50% wrong.

My final attempt:
To MarthaA
=================

How would YOU go about making the Majority Common Population aware that they are the Majority Common Population?

And what exactly do you expect as a result from the sudden realization by the Majority Common Population that they are the Majority Common Population.

No mutli-meaning philosphy terminology please.
Hegelian is cool, but I prefer english.

====

John Best:We need terminology that sticks in the mind and is clear.  Imagery.

—-

The only term I can think of that comes close to describing the assholes, is “parasites”.

As to the idea of memes, necessary for the mass dissemination of new thoughts, I can’t help but look back into the past and see that memes are simply “slogans” and “sound bytes” with a new name.

While you may indeed be correct, because these tools have been used for decades to successfully turn America away from the truth and convince folks that bullshit tastes like candy, I somehow feel a little dirty using the tools of the money men against them and suspect it simply won’t work for positive ends.

However, I will give it some thought as its about the only real suggested course of action I’ve noted here yet that might actually succeed.

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MarthaA's avatar

By MarthaA, May 9, 2011 at 8:09 pm Link to this comment

Cliff Carson, May 9 at 2:10 pm,

High brow?  Since I come in the category of “anybody”, answering
my post is a given. The high brow frame is the consequence of low
culture.

You say the common population all have no culture, but I didn’t
say that, there are those with no culture, which should not be
encouraged, but as a general rule the majority population are low
culture—not no culture.

There’s more to awareness and understanding than just how can
the common folk get the boot of the elite off their neck.  The
problem is that the common folk lack class and culture to the
extent that the professional class formed a new class and quit
representing them, because they were certain none of the 70%
majority common population had any concern about their past or
their destiny. 

If the common folk have brilliance to understand their lack of class
and culture it would behoove them to be about a movement to get
the common population recognized as a class and culture, because
the common population do not have a boot on their neck, they
have been booted out of political representation because of their
lack of class and culture.

You can’t set around and wait for the Middle Class Nearly Nobles
or the Elite Nobles to take care of you, it just won’t happen, the
common pop have been thrown over; the Middle Class only look
out for themselves, as do the Elite Capitalist Noble Class.  The
ones who aren’t looking out after themselves at all are the 70%
majority common population, the majority population, the American
Populace, who need to recognize their class and culture and
demand representation in the making and enforcing of legislated
law and order in the Congresses of the United States for their
class and culture, if they don’t do it, it will not get done, the New
Class Democrats cinched that, but if you’re waiting for them to tell
you that is what they did, it will be snowing in Hell first.

The American Populace, the 70% majority common population of
the United States need to learn how to FRAME logical dialectic, so
that when logical dialectic is used against them they will know it,
and so that they can learn to give as well as get with regard to
the give and take of dialectic ——here is how framing logic is done:


****** How To Frame Logic ******

To logically prove a negative, sublate a negative into unity with a
negative, so that negative balances in unity on both sides of the
equal sign.

To logically prove a positive, sublate a positive into unity with a
positive, so that positive balances in unity on both sides of the
equal sign.

To logically prove a balance between positive and negative,
sublate a positive into unity with a negative, so that positive and
negative balance on both sides of the equal sign.

****

The Left has been accused, condemned, denounced, and put in
the cross hairs by Conservatives and the Conservative Right by
the Right’s use of negatively framed dialectic from the
time of Nixon to the present.

The Conservatives and the Right have been glorified by the Right,
by the Conservatives and the Right’s use of positively framed
dialectic from the time of Nixon to the present. 
There does not seem to be much interest in positively and
negatively balanced dialectic that seeks a unity of balance.

Sophism is also used by the Conservatives and the Right to
empower propaganda to accuse, condemn, denounce, and put the
Left in the cross hairs, and has been done by the Conservatives
and the Right to the Left since the time of Nixon to the present.

Sophism does not have an underpinning of logic and is NOTHING
more than ideological definition proceeding from a baseless
presupposition which is uncritically and unthinkingly adopted.

The Left must also learn to recognize and use sophism so that the
Left can engage in the give and take of sophistry promoted by the
Conservatives and the Right.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, May 9, 2011 at 5:31 pm Link to this comment

“Personally, I see so much dissention and confusion among the intelligensia and the common folks today that I truly see no way out of this dilemna and assume it will; as always, run its course - revolution or dissolution.”  I just want MarthA to say what she is trying to say without the word ‘sublation’.  That’s a trouble maker.  If I have to study philosophy to understand the word, it’s not a word I’m going to use. 

In any case, faith and allegiance to cash, a proxy for power, which is in turn a substitute for security, is inextricable from the nature of bullies and sneak-thieves. As has been said, they steal in full public view, but we wear some sort of beer-goggles.  There is a lot of talk about getting rid of the FED, so I wonder if people are on to the game, or if it’s a move to a totally cashless society. 

I still wish for a word instead of ‘assholes’, and one for the ‘instruments of usury’ wouldn’t be bad either.  Communities can set up coinage again after we lose faith in the computer based fiat money system.  Unfortunately, the assholes will still be around with their ideology to guide reconstruction and guide themselves into cozy positions.  You’ve mentioned this. 

Night-Gaunt is right about resisting their verbiage and fighting on their terms. 

We need terminology that sticks in the mind and is clear.  Imagery.

Someone recommended “FEAR OF FALLING” The Inner Life of the Middle Class By Barbara Ehrenreich.  Looks quite good in understanding peoples cultural basis for throwing their allegiance to those who are abusing them in their condition. 

I do think powerful memes to combat the “religion of the assholes” are a tool any resistance must develop and disseminate.  Anti-propoganda.

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Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, May 9, 2011 at 3:39 pm Link to this comment

MarthaA you are a sophist and I hold you up as an example. Not I.

I deal it clear information. However I am not infallible and will change when I am shown to be mistaken.

So you are speaking from a philosophical point not economic or political or social? I didn’t know. You need to tell us with such a slippery word as sublate.

Nietzsche had only bad things to say about the Nobles or Masters when he found that the Slaves personal relations among themselves were good. He just wanted them to be the Masters maintaining that “slave mentality.” But then Nietzsche isn’t easy to read. He has been misunderstood by many. Mainly Nazis and anti-Nazis who read him the same wrong way and believe accordingly. He was the essence of the anti-Nazi or Progressive or Slave mentality.

In mythology the unity of opposites or a hot creating a cold is an ‘oxymoron’ that is consistent in it and represented numerous times. I see a similar function here with Hegel. But then I have read more Nietzsche than Hegel at this point.

We need to resist on every level starting with the nomenclature they use. We must not play their game on their turf using their rules. That is how they win, own the casino and they win most of the time. Even when you win they win bigger and better than any single person.

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MarthaA's avatar

By MarthaA, May 9, 2011 at 2:41 pm Link to this comment

Anarcissie may not know whether or not she is a creative
or a destructive anarchist, but apparently she does know that she
is not an authority on sublation:

“Or see those Hegelian pages yourself—I’m certainly no expert.”
—Anarcissie May 9 at 2:16 pm

Anarcissie didn’t bring forth the pages to see for
yourself, but I will, here is sublation from the horses mouth
recorded on the internet for benefit of the populace:  http://www.gwfhegel.org/

http://marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works
/hl/hlbeing.htm#HL1_106b

Hegel makes reference in his book, ‘Science of Logic’  to x = x as
being the foundation of math, which he calls mathmatica.

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MarthaA's avatar

By MarthaA, May 9, 2011 at 2:18 pm Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt, May 9 at 1:24 pm,

What you are saying is that you do not want to dialog upon the
“basis of logic” that is a “unity of balance”, that instead you want
to dialog on the “basis of sophism”, singular definition by ideology
that is absent a “unity of balance.”

You made reference to OzarkMichael and
Shenonymous and as I recall back at that time the dialog
was concerning the fact that all of “you people” in the boiler room
were sophists.  Are you now admitting that you are a sophist that
denies logic in favor or singular ideological definition without a
“unity of balance?”  If so, why have you been denying being a
sophist for so long?—you should be a proud sophist if that is your
chosen profession. 

Here are some excerpts from Hegel’s ‘Science of
Logic:‘http://www.gwfhegel.org/

‘To sublate’ has a twofold meaning in the language: on the one
hand it means to preserve, to maintain, and equally it also means
to cause to cease, to put an end to. Even ‘to preserve’ includes a
negative elements, namely, that something is removed from its
influences, in order to preserve it. Thus what is sublated is at the
same time preserved; it has only lost its immediacy but is not on
that account annihilated.

The two definitions of ‘to sublate’ which we have given can be
quoted as two dictionary meanings of this word. But it is certainly
remarkable to find that a language has come to use one and the
same word for two opposite meanings. It is a delight to
speculative thought to find in the language words which have in
themselves a speculative meaning; the German language has a
number of such. The double meaning of the Latin tollere (which
has become famous through the Ciceronian pun: tollendum est
Octavium) does not go so far; its affirmative determination
signifies only a lifting-up. Something is sublated only in so far
as it has entered into unity with its opposite
; ” —G. W. F.
Hegel, ‘Science of Logic’

http://marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works
/hl/hlbeing.htm#HL1_106b

If you are truly interested, you will look in this book.

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By Anarcissie, May 9, 2011 at 2:16 pm Link to this comment

Sublation is a sort of translation of German Aufhebung, from aufheben, which is one of those words that has contradictory meanings, including ‘raise up’, ‘lift’, ‘pick up’, ‘raise (a siege)’; ‘keep’, ‘preserve’; ‘cancel’, ‘annul’, ‘abolish’; ‘break off’; ‘look after’; ‘make a fuss’.  Thus, the word gives numerous opportunities for ambiguity and befuddlement.  You can see how philosophers would like it.  In Hegel, according to most of the reams of material on the Net that I’ve sampled, it describes what happens to the thesis and the antithesis when they are processed into a synthesis.  That is, they disappear (are canceled) but reappear raised up to a higher level of some sort.  For example, someone asserts mastery, mastery creates its antithesis, slavery; after a few thousand years of struggle, they combine to form liberalism.  Or see those Hegelian pages yourself—I’m certainly no expert.

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By Cliff Carson, May 9, 2011 at 2:10 pm Link to this comment

Anybody

Some real high brow academia speak going on here, but:
If dialectic reasoning is used to separate true reasoning from false reasoning thru the Question - Answer method or Sophist manner of Argument as used extensively by Plato, how would we today allocate our division of Nobles, almost Nobles, and Peasants in the light of the Elites extensive use of “Spin”.
If the Nobles know, and the almost Nobles, almost know, and the Peasants know not,  since the Nobles (Elite ) own the Information Providers, how is it that the Peasants will ever come to know?
The majority ( Peasants ) are the supposed life blood of a Democracy but are not the life blood of this Democracy (Republic) because a lack of real knowledge in the World of Spin.  Would you be able to arrive at the right answer to regain proper balance of the Society given that the majority is befuddled by Elite spin?  On the other hand should the majority trust the Elites to plan and organize for the good of the whole?  I would think not.  So the question should be:  Is there any way that the common man can get the boot of the Elite off his neck?
Us common folk need more common speak and less examples of our brilliance.

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By Gary Mont, May 9, 2011 at 1:56 pm Link to this comment

John Best And we need a definition…...you used the term ‘asshole’, and I know about what you mean.

I really don’t have a better term for those who find it easier to steal than to earn - easier to cheat than to learn. However, as they take over greater and greater control of the institutions of society, they have indeed been altering society’s norms to place the bad guy under the white hat, and make the good guy look like the bad guy.

About half of television commercials are skits where one person; mom, dad, whatever, lies to the other; a child or spouse. Movies portray the bad guy as just someone who has never had the chance to be good and the good guy as somone who uses torture and deception to get things done.

While these may be considered silly stereotypes by most adults, children do not possess the experience or knowledge base to discern the fallacies presented.

I read somewhere that the primary reason for the incredible increase of pre-teen suicide, is the realization that the only way to succeed in today’s world, is to become the bad guy, or his minion.

It appears to me that the cause of good people becoming assholes, is solidly based on capital, and while I’ve been raised as a capitalist and cannot myself perceive of a world without cash, I think it is the only way we’re going to end the cycle.

As long as people can dream of unlimited wealth and the unlimited power such brings in a cash based society, there will always be those willing to do whatever it takes to get to the top of the food chain.

I’ve mentioned it before, and I think it bears reiteration - communities, large and small, should construct their own time-based, usury-free capital, so they can become free of the federal cash monsters and their hold on the economy.

It would allow those in the community to pay for groceries, day care, plumbing, dentistry, and all the myriad daily expenses of general life. Federal notes could be saved specifically to pay off the money men in Washington, but you would not need their currency to get by day to day.

When the US bankrupted South America to end their bid on the afghani pipelines prior to the Iraq invasion, the South Americans affected began using IOUs instead of cash and this quickly turned into a form of usury-free currency that saved the country from a depression or worse.

Using a community currency that was devoid of usury/interest would also begin a new way of looking at wealth - seeing it as way to get things done rather than a way to gain power over others.

Personally, I see so much dissention and confusion among the intelligensia and the common folks today that I truly see no way out of this dilemna and assume it will; as always, run its course - revolution or dissolution.

The dumming down of America also included a heavy dose of fear thy neighbour and its going to take a neighborhood by neighborhood change to prevent the inevitable.

In my opinion only of course.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, May 9, 2011 at 1:53 pm Link to this comment

Thanks Night Gaunt.  Perfect. 
Is sublation what you really meant?  And thank you, it was not previously in my vocabulary.

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By Night-Gaunt, May 9, 2011 at 1:24 pm Link to this comment

There were others in the past, about 2 years ago including Shenonymous & OzarkMichael as you should remember.

You numbers make no sense in relation to the USA population numbers. Was that taken this year or 10 years ago? You have an equation,not statistics. Just like how the gov’t miscounts our poor and working.

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By MarthaA, May 9, 2011 at 1:23 pm Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt, May 9 at 1:15 pm,

Sublation is defined as a unity of balance as
defined by G. W. F. Hegel in ‘Science of Logic’.

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By Night-Gaunt, May 9, 2011 at 1:15 pm Link to this comment

Sublate-to take away, 1) to negate,2) to remove as in a dialectic process or preserve as a partial element in a synthesis.

“MarthA, “Sublation of community and private interests.”

Which sense of the word are you using it as? To negate the community from the owners of it? Can you elaborate for me too please? x=x does not compute with the established meaning of the word as I see it.

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By MarthaA, May 9, 2011 at 1:12 pm Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt, May 9 at 12:12 pm,

It’s a historical ratio between the differing classes and cultures
that has remained reasonably stable over hundreds of years.  I
say reasonably stable because the Middle Class has expanded to
20% in recent years and was no where near 20% back during the
16th and 17th Centuries prior to the widespread use of capitalism
as an economic system. 

This has been explained to you numerous times.

It is a ratio between the Nobles, the Nearly Nobles and the
Peasants.

What are your claims for the numbers of the Nobles,
Nearly Nobles and the Peasants?  Sublate the class and
cultural population ratios on both sides of the
equal sign and let me know what you
perceive the unity of balance to be if different than
“x = 1/10th x + 2/10th x + 7/10th x.”

BTW, Who is the “us” you are speaking for on this forum? 
Identify.  If you have a mouse in your pocket, is it a Noble mouse,
a Nearly Noble mouse or a peasant mouse?  This is the question. 
Inquiring minds want to know.

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By Night-Gaunt, May 9, 2011 at 12:12 pm Link to this comment

MarthaA you constantly use the number 70% and identify it as “the commmon population” but where do you get it? Others including myself have pointed out that it really isn’t a hard and fast number. Care to elaborate for us? Thanx.

It will help us better understand your point of view.

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By MarthaA, May 9, 2011 at 12:08 pm Link to this comment

John Best, May 9 at 11:09 am,

You apparently know what private interests means and surely you
know what community means, so what is it that you don’t know? —
Is it sublation that you think is too general?  Do you know what
sublation is?  If so, what is too general about x = x?  Huh, the
concept seems rather straight forward to me.  Could you expand
upon that a bit?

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, May 9, 2011 at 11:09 am Link to this comment

I join Ardee in welcoming Anarchisse back.  I msut ask Anarchisse at what point a trading community grows in prosperity, needs to defend itself, becomes something like a nation, and how nationalism is avoided.  I offer that nationalism to a nation that is doing well for it’s people is not so bad…..I offer the Scandanavian countries as an example.  Go Sweden, our infant mortality is low!  I’d say it’s not the nationalism itself, it;s what the nation is doing.  ??

MarthA, “Sublation of community and private interests.” is a bit general for my thick head.

Gary, again, a wonderful post.  It seems to me we need a cure for whatever makes a person an asshole.  Unfortunately, it seems to be part of our survival toolkit to become assholes when we are threatened.  Once in survival mode (as many bankers and many others are),  I don’t think one can extend confidence ever again to whatever manifestation of society which was perceived to be the threat.  And we need a definition…...you used the term ‘asshole’, and I know about what you mean.  You refer to those people who choose to strongly favor selfishness over actions which strengthen the general good.  Something like that.  Those who in some way fight for a bigger part of the pie without regard to the overall size of the pie, and without regard to how much is destroyed by their efforts.  But without some concise word by which to convey this ‘self over all’, or ‘self and F—- all’ attitude, society will never be able to moderate the nasty behaviors. 

Note that this is not have against have-not.  There are many wealthy people who understand the problem and realize the assholes are ruining every bodies wealth.  There are also many wealthy people who work quite hard to make the pie bigger.  Anybody who works to make the common wealth, the pie bigger, especially one who makes personal sacrifices to that end is the precise opposite of an asshole, and again, we need a work for that.  Then both these concepts need widely distributed. 

This happens within small groups and tribes, everyone knows the behavior of the selfish and lazy ones, and it is moderated.  But, when groups get large and these assholes get into power, they insulate and secure themselves.  With ideology, with religion, bread and circus, all that.  Today, we are dealing with assholes with global power.

They’ve made it cool to be an asshole.  Instead of loathing the wasteful ones, we glorify them. They make people afraid of the wrong things as a distraction. 

Concentrated wealth and power don’t seem to evolve nicely, the boom-bust cycle (empire and economic) seem to favor the ruthless over the ethical holders of power.  Once the ethical go into survival mode, they join the ruthless, actively or tacitly, then there is no return for them as individuals.  The systems run on a margin, a tipping point is reached and crash.  The higher the system goes, the farther the crash. 

How can we hope to instill widespread confidence in our society without the media?  By and large, it’s used counter-productively.

What we need to recognize and rail against is: anytime an individual makes the decision ‘I’ll get mine and I’ll put that effort well above anything which interferes with it (regardless of the cost to the common good).  In any party, profession or persuasion, if the preceding is the calculus,  that individual must be de-incentivized.  That aint gonna happen in the west.  Apparently in the East they’ve made some evolution in this direction.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2009-10-27-Depression_culture_N.htm

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By MarthaA, May 9, 2011 at 10:46 am Link to this comment

Class and Cultural awareness is needed in the majority
population.  Awareness that there is a 70% majority common
population that are being unrepresented by both political parties
and the need for the common majority population to be
represented as a total class and cultural majority of the common
population of the United States, because if the common majority
would realize their undivided power, there could be representation
of all the people in the United States, not just a few at the top.

One has to know that culture is what people as a class of people
do that is passed down from generation to generation.  Different
classes do different things.  People of the 70% common majority
need to become cyclically aware of their part in culture which will
upgrade the cyclical nature of culture for the majority population. 
Culture is everything that mankind has done and passed down
from the beginning to the present.

When relating to a separate class and culture you are relating to a
group of people who have awareness of only a portion of the
overall totality of culture as a whole.  The populace have the least
awareness, the middle class has more awareness and the
aristocracy has the greater awareness of the cyclical nature of
culture.

If the majority population become aware that they are a class and
culture that needs to have a greater understanding of the overall
cyclical nature of class and culture as a whole for best interest
benefit, that cyclical nature of culture can be used as cultural
capital and that cultural capital can be exchanged for moneyed
capital. 

We must rise above Jerry Springer personal experience individual
culture at the zero point, and realize that we are a part of the
whole majority common population’s class and culture that is
within the whole of culture and learn to increase our cultural
awareness beyond personal experience of culture at the zero
point to the cyclical nature of culture to obtain best interest from
cultural capital.

Barbara Ehrenreich addressed this need for class and cultural
awareness eloquently in her academic work, ‘The Fear of
Falling, The Inner Life of the Middle Class’
.

http://www.scottlondon.com/reviews/ehrenreich.html

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By Night-Gaunt, May 8, 2011 at 8:42 pm Link to this comment

Now I am registered but my previous comment hasn’t appeared yet.

Climate change as brought upon by our combined unrestrained meddling and altering of the world’s ecosystems has now definitely affected certain food crops like wheat. Just another warning sign that if we don’t heed as a species it will simply make our world far more inhospitable and hurt and kill billions in the process.

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By Night-Gaunt, May 8, 2011 at 8:36 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I consider it only personal in that it is happening to me, not that I think I am being singled out for some reason. But Now all I can do is register, not log in.

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By ardee, May 8, 2011 at 7:29 pm Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt, May 7 at 2:10 pm

Do not think your problems with this website are at all personal. I have experienced some oddities while logging in and Anarcissie has noted her own problems as well. Perhaps it is growing pains, or incompetent technical abilities ( oops, now Ive done it, I expect to be disappeared any time no….......(poof)

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By Night-Gaunt, May 7, 2011 at 2:10 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Since we are at the tipping point concerning water and food production in relation to population and wealth distribution we need to operate faster and on a multi-ordinal level if we want to stave off a massive crash followed by massive confusion and death.

This site is still wiggy and treats me as an outsider and won’t let me be able to log on. I’ve told them but nothing really is happening. What a pain.

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By Anarcissie, May 7, 2011 at 7:27 am Link to this comment

It is my impression that wherever women achieve equal rights and control of their reproductive function, under modern industrial conditions (low death rate), the birth rate drops to about replacement level, or perhaps slightly below it.

Part of the ancient patriarchal political-religious program, then, might Dworkinishly be seen as rape, even though the women subjected to it seem to consent.  From the patriarchal point of view rape—compulsory breeding—produces significant benefits: more soldiers, more slaves, and more breeding stock for the use of the patriarchs, all of which lead to growth, that is, conquest.

Part of dealing with population, then, would seem to be doing what one can to undermine and destroy the great organized religions and the pseudo-religions of nationalism and racism.

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By MarthaA, May 7, 2011 at 7:03 am Link to this comment

John Best, May 6 at 3:41 am,

“On another topic, the elephant in the room, it seems so few of the
many many articles by left, right or center wing writers deal with the
mother of all problems, the population situation.  Has Chris or anyone
dug deeply into it?” —John Best, May 6 at 3:41 am

Answer:  Sublation of community and private interests.

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By ardee, May 7, 2011 at 6:02 am Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt, May 4 at 2:54 pm

I trust you have learned to never, ever, joke about cannibalism. Those folks have, in addition to peculiar culinary tastes, rather short fuses!

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By ardee, May 7, 2011 at 6:00 am Link to this comment

Anarcissie, May 5 at 8:04 pm

Welcome back.

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By Gary Mont, May 6, 2011 at 4:01 pm Link to this comment

On the subject of the destruction of pollinators, try adding the name Bayer to your search string.

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By Gary Mont, May 6, 2011 at 3:57 pm Link to this comment

To begin, I wish I was wrong, a few hundred times a day. But I also make it a rule to think the unthinkable at least once a day.

Suzuki, as usual, is right on track.

Re the 59th minute, yes, population growth is indeed exponential and the growth from 7 billion to 100 billion will not take very long at the current rate, regardless of how many are killed in wars and destroyed physically by corporate pollution and toxification programs such as the introduction of Canola Oil or genetically mutated meat, fruit and vegetables into the food supply.

That’s basically the thinking behind the abandonment of publically open longetivity research by governments world-wide.

Longer life spans are considered to aggrevate the problem as the elderly poor will hang around longer.

Its why nobody even looks at the thymus gland and its mysterious vanishing act from the body right after it imbues us with t-cell immunities.

Privately however, longetivity research is fully under way with huge funding, from billionaires world wide. Naturally.

There is no doubt that earth is a closed system and that humanity will one day outgrow its planet if it does not come to terms with its own biology, reproduction and sexuality.

As long as we are hobbled by idiotic religious-based morality, sexuality will remain the “evil, dirty, sick and perverse” act that the church has painted it throughout history.

We will continue; as adults, to be embarrassed by sexual topics and neglect our children’s ignorance for fear of destroying their “innocence”, insuring that they remain the perfect targets for sexual predators (the majority of which seem to come from the church and religious backgrounds) and insuring that these ignorant children become the future practicioners of random reproduction.

What I find most saddening is that the big plan only considers saving those who have personally brought about the worst problems the world faces. The people who are supposed to survive the “purge”, or “cull” of humanity are the bankers, politicians and CEOs that have destroyed humanity’s ability to work out real solutions, by destroying education and working diligently to lower the general intelligence level of the common peasant/consumer.

The future of humanity is for asshole only.

Which actually computes as the future of humanity being non-existant, since the assholes who have destroyed the earth thus far, can only succeed when there is a huge information-stupid resource population of peasants to rob and unlimited natural resources to exploit.

As has always happened in the past, the feeding frenzy produced by the total lack of legal restrictions against the continuous daylight robbery of the general public leads directly to the dissolution or revolution of the society in which the money sharks feed.

Sadly revolving always leads right back to the same starting point as last time… and the time before that… and the time before that…

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, May 6, 2011 at 12:24 pm Link to this comment

Gary I hop you’re wrong.  Your next to last paragraph: reverse repture.  Is there any information on the bees???  I’m quite aware of the declining population, I thought it was a combination of mites and virus, but given the strategy behind roundup and GMF, I wonder. 

Check out Biotechnology and the future of world agriculture, by Henk Hobelink, but it’s mostly about unintended consequences of GMF and monocultures…...nothing intentional. 

Have you read this David Suzuki example of the analogy of the microbes in the test-tube to the population of the paanet?  It’s got a subtle point about realization of how close to trouble we are.
http://www.loe.org/shows/segments.html?programID=10-P13-00051&segmentID=6 Skip ahead to the paragraph right above the second picture of Suzuki.

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By Gary Mont, May 6, 2011 at 11:33 am Link to this comment

There is no population problem - not yet.

There will be of course, unless we someday find an optimum method of procreation that does not depend on booze, perfume and jewelry.

What the fascists see as a population problem is really just a population control problem.

Once they establish across the board automation, most of the peasnts will no longer be needed for slave labor and will be discarded as unwanted expenses.

However this means they could theoretically revolt.

Killing them off is the corporate answer.

Dead peasants wield no swords.

To this end, hundreds of programs are dedicated, such as toxic organ-destroying medicine and beauty products, poisoned food, water and air, chlorination and flouridation of water supplies, war, removal of safety rules in the workplace, child labor…...

Control of food poduction and distribution world wide will allow the corporate rulers to literally eradicate whole nations over night, should they deem it needful, simply by introducing a slow acting toxin into their delivered food supply.

To speed the process up, they are currently doing everything they can to destroy earth’s ability to produce food naturally, such as poisoning the bee population using specifically designed pesticides.

The planet, if properly managed could support 60-100 billion easily, but that is not really their concern. Instead, all the wealth of the earth is being used to create a utopia for assholes.

Since they plan to do no sane management of systems and resources - living gods just party all day and all night - they have to consider that the peasants, once they start to starve, will get uppity.

To this end, they have tried to convince the white christian populations that the poor, blacks, chinese, gays, drug users, and any other disobedient non-white christians are the cause of poverty and suffering, to gain their support and approval of mass geneocide, for the sake of those good white christians left behind.

Like everything this group claims to support, its a crock of shit designed to increase profits and lower resistance to their overall control.

In my opinion only of course.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, May 6, 2011 at 3:41 am Link to this comment

Great to see our crazy mouse back!  The question I posed about malevolent hackers is now moot, but the personalities/ideologies/psychology of those who hack (disrupt) by trolling are still interesting.  Not so much because of their effect (or ineffect) in these forums, but they are part of a larger demographic.

On another topic, the elephant in the room, it seems so few of the many many articles by left, right or center wing writers deal with the mother of all problems, the population situation.  Has Chris or anyone dug deeply into it?  I mean, unless that irrationality can be checked, what is the point of worrying about anything else?  Save Tibet?  C’mon.

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By Gary Mont, May 5, 2011 at 10:01 pm Link to this comment

I’ve been trying to post here all day with no luck and eventually contacted TruthDig to see if there was a technical problem.

They report that they are indeed working on some server and software changes.

Every time I selected either the “Preview” or “Submit” button, I would be shown a “Page Not Found” page and about half the time, the contents of the text wndow would be gone when I got back to it.

I’m going to start making copies of each post before hitting submit or preview to prevent un-necessary rewrites. In fact it might be a good idea to make copies of each post in future even after the technical problems are fixed.

Always nice to have an archival copy of your posts in case some large scale erasure takes place, or someone calls you to task with a misquote of an old erased post.

Also nice to see that you were not being censored Anarchissi.

Well here goes another attempted posting….

Preview worked! Now to try Submit…

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By Anarcissie, May 5, 2011 at 8:04 pm Link to this comment

It seems that this account has been restored.  The missing messages (in this discussion) are still missing, however.  No great loss, I suppose.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, May 5, 2011 at 8:27 am Link to this comment

Anarchissi, I don’t believe anyone would hack your particular account.  Jokingly, this springs my pure jealousy that you’ve offended someone more than I.  (<: 

In any case, seriously, what about your posts, would possibly motivate a hacker to do this.  It would not be your posts alone, but presented to a particular ideology, which might provide enough irritation to invest the time to hack you.  So, if you were to guess it to be a hacker, really, what would be your best guess as to the ideology of said hacker??  i.e., who’s is against whatever they think you represent??  See my drift here?  Please consider and answer.  Thank You.

And I am interested in all opinions on this…...it goes to sort of ‘political mentality types’, or ‘cultural mentality types’, interesting fundamental insight might result from a bit of dissecting here.

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By NRCisi, May 5, 2011 at 7:50 am Link to this comment

I have been assured by the webmaster that my account and messages were not deliberately deleted.  However, they’re gone.

Possibly the site was hacked.  Someone hacked into my gmail account a few months ago and took care to send offensive messages to such as the FBI along with some ordinary spamming.  So it seems possible that I have a friend out there somewhere who is particularly excited by the things I write.

I am as surprised as you are.  But I have noticed that rationality, politeness, and refusal to engage in personal abuse infuriates a lot of people.  It is one of the more amusing and rewarding aspects of Net conversation.  Those of you who have experimented with this particular kind of schadenfreude will know what I mean. 

In the future, assuming I write anything, I will write in spaces where I have some control over the existence and appearance of the material.

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By MarthaA, May 4, 2011 at 7:19 pm Link to this comment

To date, Truthdig’s Forum truly stands firm for truth.  Truth gets the
chance to stand up side by side with the Conservatives and
Right-Wing Republicans sophistry and twaddle better than on any
other supposed liberal blog without being shouted down and I am
thankful for the Truthdig Forum.  I hope it can continue as it has in the past.

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By Night-Gaunt, May 4, 2011 at 3:24 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Soviet style take overs by Republicans who hate Soviet Russia, so is it just a Reich wing version of Soviet system? Doesn’t matter because they are telling you and me that our votes, our choices, our present gov’t system is inconsistant with their system. This needs to be stopped and reversed or we shall be a mere shell of a democratic-republic.

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By Night-Gaunt, May 4, 2011 at 2:54 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Once AltNet not only wiped out all my comments they locked me out. Had to register under another name. They didn’t bother to inform me as to my transgression. My suspicions were that I just personally ticked off someone who got rid of me. The last thing I had written was an obvious satire on cannibalism. Boy was that a mistake. I remain careful but there is no defence should they anonymously again decide to make me a non-person whose writings are removed retroactively in the fine fashion of tyrants. The draw back of having so much locked up in the flow of electrons is that should such a flow cease, so much could be locked away and hence gone. Something that doesn’t so readily happen to paper and stone.

Got a new computer after my last one crashed. But it won’t let me log in now. The page comes of blank after the information line.

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By Gary Mont, May 4, 2011 at 1:44 pm Link to this comment

Well, it looks as if this debate may indeed be moot.

Apparently, 9/11 shut up and did away with all those who considered themselves to be democrats and left nothing but republicanazis standing in their place, even wearing their hats.

========news==========

Last night, the Massachusetts House of Representatives overwhelmingly passed a bill (111-42) to strip public-sector workers of their ability to bargain collectively for healthcare. The rhetoric surrounding the bill, proposed by Democratic State House Speaker Robert A. DeLeo, is in many ways similar to what Wisconsinites recently heard as Gov. Walker pushed his infamous unionbusting bill.

===================

Note - the above was about the Democrats….

Well, at the rate the corporate pirates are taking over the reigns of power, you’re not going to have to worry about protesting, or demonstating, or any of those things, because those things will all be illegal real soon and the NeoCon Gestapo will be making sure anyone who bitches publically - no matter how peacefully - will be handled with the utmost violence and expediency.

I’ll bet most of ya still think it can’t happen here.

Which is precisely why it can happen here and why its happening right now.

Deer in the headlights….

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, May 4, 2011 at 8:24 am Link to this comment

I’ll take a shot at Die Daily’s comment about this site being ‘private property’.  Technically, true, but it is offered to the public as a public forum.  True, the TOS, like all, reserve the right of the ownership/editor to lat the rules bend, or enforce whenever they see fit, but in this new era of broad public peer-to-peer opinion/blather sharing, we are still in the infancy period, where the market is relatively free, and monies interests have not dominated in gaining control. 

These dynamics of public access, gaining familiarity with people, planning action, etc, are affecting the economy of ‘what resistance looks like’.  A good question might be, what is the best forum for our particular agendas?  Assuming there is some commonality of purpose.

Back on the specific topic of the Truthdig-Anarchisse relationship…...It’s ucdlear to me if there was censorship or a voluntary retraction from the forum by Anarchisse.  It’s unsettling not to know what happened, and hence to not understand the real rules.

And back to a more overarching technicality of a tool of the resistance, let us hope that net nuetrality prevails? Can we please all agree on that?

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By ardee, May 4, 2011 at 3:01 am Link to this comment

DieDaily, May 2 at 4:46 am

Your opinion is duly noted, and, as it deserves to be, summarily discarded.

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By MarthaA, May 3, 2011 at 8:52 pm Link to this comment

Editing is tough and I do appreciate Truthdig
steering toward a non-chaotic purpose, which is
what resistance looks like.

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By Jackie McElveny, May 3, 2011 at 12:35 pm Link to this comment

Roll call (4/27):

I’m still following this, John Best. It’s been an interesting dialogue.

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By DieDaily, May 2, 2011 at 4:46 am Link to this comment

I suppose, ultimately, as short-term gratifying a it
may seem, one should be a little concerned when the
minority report gets silenced. Ararsissy is an idiot,
true, as is the KKK and so forth. Enough said. This
site, though, is, after all, private property.

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By ardee, April 29, 2011 at 4:03 pm Link to this comment

NRCisi, April 27 at 5:44 pm

No, no, this software has been rather flaky of late, don’t take it personally….A rose by any other name and all that. The loss of my favorite anarchist would be dreadful indeed.

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By Gary Mont, April 29, 2011 at 11:34 am Link to this comment

John Best:But on the general topic, I think it’s perfectly legal to propose very radical ideas so long as they don’t promote violent overthrow of the government.  Certainly something like a well organized boycott (there’s a keyword for your fed monitors?) would attract attention and perhaps disruption.

When it becomes illegal to propose very radical ideas, including those that don’t promote violent overthrow of the government, it will be too late to do anything but get the hell out of Dodge ASAP. Where to go at that point will however present a major problem.

This is precisely what the Invaders of America will be initiating as soon as they’ve got full control of all aspects of government, law enforcement, food and water management and peasant surveillance.

Its pretty much standard operational procedure for any invading force to want to have maximum control over their captives and modern technology offers the most precise and efficient systems ever dreamed of for total population control by the few.

In America however, it is most desirous to simply keep the wool over the public’s eyes while the moneyboys steal everything that is not nailed down secruely. Once they own everything, they will naturally become the only game in town.

American’s, still asleep and dreaming the American Dream, naturally do not want to believe they have been conquered and will literally help the invaders keep the wool firmly pressed against their eyes until they can no longer pretend everything is just fine.

The system that made the dark ages so successful will likely work perfectly well in America once the wool comes away - You either become a member of the opressing army and get paid well to torture, harrass and kill the peasants, or you remain one of the starving oppresed peasants and be tortured, harrassed and eventually killed by the oppressing army.

One could almost say, that’s the history of the human race.

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By Gary Mont, April 29, 2011 at 11:07 am Link to this comment

</b>John Best:<b> “It’s cool. I think these older articles sort of wither on the vine as readers move on to the newer ones, so likely there are just a few hanging on here?  I’m not sure if you can unsubscribe to comments on a given article.

—-

That’s why I’m not too concerned about discussing personal quirks, rather than railing against the machine. This thread has already outlived many others that are newer.

The first article I posted on here - The Food Bomb, lasted only a short time before disappearing into the archives.

Sad too, because it was one of the truly important topics and gets far too little attention. We’ve become so accustomed to simply shopping for whatever we need that its nearly impossible for most North Americans to perceive of a day when the entire food production and distibution network is totally controlled by the same pirates that now run the energy industries and financial houses - a day when it will be illegal to grow your own vegetables or raise your own livestock and nutritional quality of available foodstocks will be artifically lowered to promote greater sales at far higher prices.

The “unsubscribe” link that is present on all email notifications will selectively discontinue notifications of new posts for the article it refers back to only - I did it by mistalke once and had to re-install notification for the article manually.

None of the other articles I was following were affected by it. However, to be on the safe side, you might post a simple question in any of the less interesting articles and then try the discontinue link on the first email notification you receive.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, April 29, 2011 at 10:27 am Link to this comment

It’s cool.
I think these older articles sort of wither on the vine as readers move on to the newer ones, so likely there are just a few hanging on here?  I’m not sure if you can unsubscribe to comments on a given article.

It might be interesting to do a ‘roll call’.  Your attention please: anyone still following this article ‘What Resistance looks like”, please speak up?  Say “Here!”?  Thanks.

But on the general topic, I think it’s perfectly legal to propose very radical ideas so long as they don’t promote violent overthrow of the government.  Certainly something like a well organized boycott (there’s a keyword for your fed monitors?) would attract attention and perhaps disruption. 

I think the value in some good listening/research/blogging is not in what is presented in a particular blog, rather it’s the cross-polination of ideas and the proliferation of these presumably stronger ideas on to other blogs, perhaps in to influential but non-malevolent circles.  One can hope.  I blog in one other forum, and don’t take precise verbiage, but the good bloggers add various nuances and references which strengthen my arguments elsewhere.  In a way, so long as we manage to stick together a bit, it builds a root system.  You’ll have to tolerate my horticultural metaphors.

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By Gary Mont, April 29, 2011 at 10:08 am Link to this comment

Off Topic Posting
=================

John Best:Ardee, Gary, you’re both great posters, intelligent, insightful, articulate.  Make nice?  Huh?”

—-

I only promised to ignore ardee’s “blather”, which for ardee, appears to be any explanantion of a personal nature, (like this missive) not directly tied to the topic under discussion, although I’m just guessing here.

Any intelligent comment always gets the usual surgical treatment. smile

—-

John Best: Anyway, Gary, as to ownership?  I don’t blame Truthdig for trying to ‘steer’ the site toward it’s intended purpose.

—-

Personally, I’m still amazed that the site hasn’t caved to cash-based pressure or lost its directorship to federal moles yet.

The fact that it allows the publication of radical ideas says more for the owners than anything that might be lawyerized into pseudo-english in their EULA.

I used to love Mother Jones many years ago, but its so wimply now that its obviously been absorbed by the Fed as just another branch of the social engineering department.

When I post online, I kiss my words goodbye.

I used to haunt the UseNet newsgroups before they became pay per byte, which is where I got used to, and learned to recognize, posts by paid and attention seeking bunkers.

I don’t really expect to make a difference, but the hope is always present and I can’t simply sit back and watch the world slide down the hole its dug without trying to stop it, or slow it.

Since my life is as boring as anything I’ve ever come across, blackmail is pretty useless and is not a concern.

As for retracting something I’ve said, it happens.

New information can sometimes alter the entire picture and I never stop adding new information. When I’ve retracted something, I include the new data as explanation.

If my statements are scrubbed, I simply move on to another site, never looking back. I have no loyalties to anything that does not reciprocate.

And because this is all personal “blather”, I’ll drop it at this point before I get reprimanded for being off topic again by the blog monitors.

My apologies to any who read this far excpecting the topic at hand to be discussed.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, April 29, 2011 at 7:55 am Link to this comment

Ardee, Gary, you’re both great posters, intelligent, insightful, articulate.  Make nice?  Huh? 

Anyway, Gary, as to ownership?  I don’t blame Truthdig for trying to ‘steer’ the site toward it’s intended purpose.  Editing is tough, and perhaps the offense of getting edited will keep comments better focused or more productive.  In any case, I would think before re-publishing a blogger’s work, the site should obtain said blogger’s permission.  I didn’t read the TOS, and perhaps we give up any copyrights to what we post.  That is likely the case.

Another aspect of public blogging is the ability of a blogger to retract what they’ve said in public.  I’m not comfortable with this, or any ability to selectively retract public statements.  There are some loonies out there….I might imagine a fanatic evangelical blog keeping postings on file to blackmail or intimidate potential political candidates.  It is a brave new world in many ways. 

But as for me…...
I’ll make my comments as I see fit,
and if they get scrubbed,
I’ll not give a wit.  (sp?)

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By MarthaA, April 28, 2011 at 2:29 pm Link to this comment

Anarcissie’s previous posts on this thread have not been
removed, so she still has history on these Truthdig blogs, just her
post where she agreed with my answer to her post’s answer to
my MarthaA, April 25 at 8:47 pm post, then both my answering post and
Anarcissie’s agreement post and my answering posts plus the
questioning of her disappearance posts with the exception of the twaddle
posts have
all been removed, only posts remaining are John Best’s April 26 at 7:22am
post answering
Anarcissie and my posts where I considered what
Anarcissie had been saying to be
twaddle.  I consider it unfortunate that
dialog was not allowed to continue for better or worse.

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By Gary Mont, April 28, 2011 at 9:21 am Link to this comment

Well thank you ardee,

Nice to know you’re the trusting kind - I’m not and the parts you chose to ignore explained why - and to reciprocate, I’ll try and ignore your blather in future as well.

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By ardee, April 28, 2011 at 3:17 am Link to this comment

However, I am extremely curious as to exactly how you determined this “fact”. Do you actually know this person?

Gary Mont,
Ignoring the blather about “I was using the term “he” in the pre-politically correct manner - labelling the poster as a non-object - rather than the gender specific post PC manner, although in truth, the poster could just as easily be a bot.”

I know her gender because she has noted it in the past, duh.

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By Gary Mont, April 27, 2011 at 11:56 pm Link to this comment

John Best:To Gary: Yes, what does it imply that one’s history can disappear?  By leaving Truthdig, does ones record vanish?  I’m not sure what to think. Sometimes I think it best to get a proxy server and seriously just go anonymous.

I believe everything one posts in such a place becomes the property of the owners of the blog.

Correct me please if I err on this, anyone.

Anonymity has its virtues, however, there is no such thing if those who run the show wish to ascertain a true identity.

Its really a good way to avoid spam though.

Simpy change your email address to

webproduction@YourISP.com, or,

webservices@YourISP.com

or something along those lines and the spam will diminish overnight.
smile

PS - did you get my email reply ?

Truthdig went tits up just as I posted the reply and when I got back on, both your message and my response had disappeared. For about three day I could not post anything herein. Preview or Submit took me to Page Not Found.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, April 27, 2011 at 6:35 pm Link to this comment

To Gary: Yes, what does it imply that one’s history can disappear?  By leaving Truthdig, does ones record vanish?  I’m not sure what to think. 

Sometimes I think it best to get a proxy server and seriously just go anonymous.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, April 27, 2011 at 6:31 pm Link to this comment

NRCisi (Anarchisie), As for my comment, it’s not that your posts were uninteresting, but I thought your promotion of anarchy as a viable solution was a waste of time, I just don’t see how to get from here to there, not that ‘there’ even seems viable, even if we could get ‘there’.  Meantime, kids get wrapped up in this ‘hip’ anarchist clique, then end up getting disenfranchised and jaded.  That’s what I see you accomplishing.  Also, as I’ve made clear, I question anyone who promotes giving up our arguably worthless vote, as it simply plays into the hands of creeps. 

LAst, if you’re still lingering a bit, there is a question hanging you might consider: You said, ” I think the deliberate use of coercive force is a rather important issue.”  My question:  What’s the problem? It’s been used forever.  Precisely which instance(s) have raised your mouse antennae?

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Gary Mont's avatar

By Gary Mont, April 27, 2011 at 6:10 pm Link to this comment

Hmmmm…. and so, “she” returns, as confused about “her” eradication as any of us….. yet “her” only response is to claim we are unworthy of “her” association because we considered the eradication of a poster we didn’t even like worth discussing.

Paint me paranoid I guess, but the elimination of a poster and their every message from a “truth-seeking” blog certainly deserves and I would think, naturally elicits some discussion by the others in the blog, in my opinion.

Anyway.
Nice to see you’ve returned -
and buh bye.

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By Gary Mont, April 27, 2011 at 5:59 pm Link to this comment

Off topic posting - out of pure curiosity…
============================================

ardee:Except that he is a she…

I was using the term “he” in the pre-politically correct manner - labelling the poster as a non-object - rather than the gender specific post PC manner, although in truth, the poster could just as easily be a bot.

I should have used the PC term s/he/it no doubt, as I have absolutely no idea if Anarcissie is male, female, or other.

However, I am extremely curious as to exactly how you determined this “fact”. Do you actually know this person?

This is the web.

I could be a 60 year old male as my profile claims, or I could be two 16 year old girls doing a class project, collecting responses to politically critical issues for an economics or history class.

How do you know Anarcissie is female??

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By NRCisi, April 27, 2011 at 5:44 pm Link to this comment

Yes, apparently ‘I’ have been completely wiped out of Truthdig.  I inquired about it of the management and they denied having done it.  In any case, as my disappearance was more interesting to you all than my messages, I guess it’s a sign to move along.  See you around.

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By ardee, April 27, 2011 at 4:27 pm Link to this comment

.. or perhaps he was a non-person all along…

Except that he is a she…....

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By Gary Mont, April 27, 2011 at 2:57 pm Link to this comment

Jorge X Rodriguez:Perhaps Anarcissie has been made an unperson by the Authorities!  That’s what happened to them durn left-deviationists the the old days….

—-

... or perhaps he was a non-person all along…

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By Jorge X Rodriguez, April 27, 2011 at 8:42 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Perhaps Anarcissie has been made an unperson by the Authorities!  That’s what happened to them durn left-deviationists the the old days….

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, April 27, 2011 at 8:25 am Link to this comment

MarthA, I poked around, there is no longer a record of Anarchissie in the member list.  I’m unsure about what he/she was trying to accomplish here anyway, but perhaps in time he/she will turn up again.

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By MarthaA, April 26, 2011 at 2:09 pm Link to this comment

What happened to Anarcissie’s post?

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, April 26, 2011 at 7:22 am Link to this comment

Anarchisse says, ” I think the deliberate use of coercive force is a rather important issue.”

What’s the problem? It’s been used forever.  Precisely which instance(s) have raised your mouse antennae?

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By MarthaA, April 26, 2011 at 6:50 am Link to this comment

Anarcissie, April 26 at 10:29 am,

More twaddle.

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By MarthaA, April 25, 2011 at 9:39 pm Link to this comment

Anarcissie, April 26 at 1:16 am,

Twaddle.

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By MarthaA, April 25, 2011 at 9:28 pm Link to this comment

Anarcissie, April 26 at 1:16 am,

Twaddle.

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By MarthaA, April 25, 2011 at 8:47 pm Link to this comment

Anarcissie, April 26 at 12:18 am,

A Libertarian is farther Right than a Conservative Republican EXTREMIST.

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By MarthaA, April 25, 2011 at 8:15 pm Link to this comment

Check out the Colbert Report on the Rand illusion:

http://www.alternet.org/story/150703/ayn_rand_movie_fails_in_free_market_(despite_tea_party_hype)?page=entire

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By ardee, April 25, 2011 at 6:26 pm Link to this comment

Mack, April 20 at 2:16 pm Link to this comment

Anyone who’s been hoodwinked into believing the Libertarian (read Anarchist) jive about no government, you need look no further than the BP Gulf Oil debacle to see the results of little or no government involvement.

We, you and I, seldom have commonality in our political views at least as you express them here. But on this we are solidly one voice. Those who express a preference for lily white Libertarian politics either fail to see the inherent racism in that call for ending all entitlements ( Ive got mine and you cant have any of it!) and all regulation of corporations, including the food industry, oh yeah, e. coli and a barren Gulf of Mexico too.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, April 24, 2011 at 8:00 pm Link to this comment

Mack, Of many interesting statements, I zeroed in here: “All their money is being kept in off-shore accounts.”  I don’t yet understand the full implications of the new digital banking age, and how it relates to fiat money.  It seems we could halt the hemorrhaging of wealth out of this country, but I’m not sure how involved it would be. 

One thing for sure, with ‘prosefights’ limited repertoire, and inability to dynamically engage the enemy, he’ll be left on the heap with the other wanna-be’s.  Extremely replaceable.  No unique skills.  No use for those who are a mile wide and an inch deep pathetically using a shotgun approach…....too easily identified and ignored.  Only active engagement in the battle for minds is worth anything.  Squeak up prosefights.

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By prosefights, April 23, 2011 at 2:54 pm Link to this comment

From: .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
To: .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
Hello Mr Cooper,

Thanks for the phone call.

http://www.prosefights.org/unmineable/audio/cooper.mp3

Phone message from AARP/New Mexico complaining about PNM rate hikes.

Pushing Out Power published in the Thursday April 21, 2011 Albuquerque Journal, page B4 suggests that PNM electric rate payers may fund these solar generation of electricity projects.

Possible large-scale solar generation of electricty fraud information was posted at AARP site

AARP Opposes PNM Rate Request
http://www.aarp.org/politics-society/advocacy/info-11-2010/aarp_opposes_pnm_rate_nm.html?plckItemsPerPage=3&plckSort=TimeStampDescending&plckFindCommentKey=CommentKey:1e86727d-bad3-41c6-b276-8f56cd063b62#pluck_comments_list

While I know something about electric heat production from my 8051 family microcontroller work, I am not qualitied to determine whether Heat Rate applies to photovoltaic or CSP generation of electricity or not. 

PNM [ERPI?] published data states hat Heat Rate applies to non-combustion electricty generation technologies of geothermal and nuclear,

This makes truth of statements of electrical engineers Currie, Sobolewski, and Nelson that Heat Rate only applies to combustable methods of electricity questionable.

If these engineers have erred, then an editor of a major electronics industrial magizine I know may be able to help start a review process by those who do know whether Heat Rate applies to photovoltaic and CSP?

Increases in electric rates will also affect natural gas prices since some or all of New Mexico Gas Company compressors are powered by electricity.  Same for the San Juan-Chama Drinking Water Project.

If AARP/New Mexico would like to get this review process started, please let me know.

One reason for possibibly identifying another New Mexico scam is increased visibility of New Mexico political corruption and incompetence in the hopes that we can get our money back.

http://www.prosefights.org/nmlegal/prccrd/shaffer/shaffer.htm#shaffer

Regards,

bill

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By MarthaA, April 23, 2011 at 12:58 pm Link to this comment

Jon Stewart or Stephen Colbert would be wonderful. It’s
questionable as to how much good they could actually do for the
majority population with a worthless Congress, but it could be a
gallant effort.  At least I don’t think either would sign for even more
outsourcing of USA jobs, like Obama, Bush and Clinton did.

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By DieDaily, April 23, 2011 at 2:55 am Link to this comment

@John Best: how dare you ask the most the straight-
forward and unambiguous question of all time and then
act surprised when everything goes real quiet. But,
since you asked:

First, if possible cast a vote for a rogue
independent (not an insane, reactionary rightist, nor
some dolt-commie, but any reasonably or even
marginally sane non-incumbent, such as any mellow,
laid-back proven libertarian);

Second, vote for a humour party, like in Canada the
official “Rhino” party, which advocates solving
global warming by passing binding legislation to
lower the boiling point of water.

Third, if you must, because neither of the two above
options were viable, then merely spoil the ballot by
whatever means. But, epsecially, spoil it by writing
down some name of your own. maybe you’r neighbor or
that did sucha great job when he rebuilt your
garage.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, April 20, 2011 at 3:17 pm Link to this comment

Gary, but why make it easy on them?  I use Mack’s method when I’m in a quandary: write in.  Wouldn’t it me nice if everybody mysteriously wrote in the same name?  Jon Stewart 2012!  Got a better one?  Let’s USE this internet thingey.  Perhaps that’s what resistance looks like.

But, to return to the question I ask, should people go through the process, rigged or not, Yes or no?

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Gary Mont's avatar

By Gary Mont, April 20, 2011 at 2:36 pm Link to this comment

John Best:OK, here is some ‘resistance’:  Assuming that voting is not done as a substitute for a citizens ‘civic responsibilities’ and knowing that elections may, or may not, be rigged, should people vote, yes or no?

Logically, the only way not voting could be effective, is if everyone stopped voting.

Since the employees of the companies that hoped to gain windfall from a fascist government, (and the fools in the general population who think they might get a piece of the pie for being loyal minions), would not with-hold their votes, this can not happen.

The difference here is that the corporate winners will not have to use the crooked vote count to prove their election win results.

On the other hand, if the elections are rigged as I’m positive they are - simply because its so easy to do - then all voting is simply useless ritual designed to appease the peasants - make the people feel like they’re part of the process - and the true selection of political personel is just a financial operation performed in the background by the board of directors of Ameri Co. prior to the election.

Voting is thus rendered equivalent to looking left or looking right or looking straight ahead, as far as accomplishment is concerned. It has no effect on the political climate.

So voting - in its current form - and not voting are equivalent non-actions.

The only way the vote could be effective would be if everyone signed their ballots and the tally was 100% public. A legal punishment based on treason for vote tampering of any sort might go a long way to insuring the vote remained honest also.

IMO only of course.

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By Anarcissie, April 20, 2011 at 10:48 am Link to this comment

I’d say they should vote if they feel like it and it makes them happy.  Rationally, one vote in a large election has infinitesimal effect, but this means it does as little harm as it does good.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, April 20, 2011 at 10:24 am Link to this comment

OK, here is some ‘resistance’:  Assuming that voting is not done as a substitute for a citizens ‘civic responsibilities’ and knowing that elections may, or may not, be rigged, should people vote, yes or no?

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DieDaily's avatar

By DieDaily, April 20, 2011 at 3:30 am Link to this comment

@Anarcissie: you said “Also, the oil is being eaten
by bacteria (supposedly) which is metabolically the
equivalent of burning it.  I would think that would
warm things up a bit.” He he, I just have to
acknowledge that the was pretty much my “comment of
the month”. Good one…I’m sore from the laughter.

@Mack: let’s say there was this person who was
commenting on another person’s comments but he never
got specific about this issues raised.
Hmmmmmm…other than that he didn’t want to
tangle…what exactly might that indicate? Might
those two commenters have not arrived at a logical
accord if only they BOTH had antied up? (Hint, hint:
let’s get specific.)

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By MarthaA, April 20, 2011 at 1:40 am Link to this comment

John Best, April 20 at 12:04 am,

“If you have less than 10 million in assets, and think you will be
anywhere near the inside of the castle when the gates are closed,
you’re a fool.” —John Best, April 20 at 12:04 am

This is most people, as most people are genteel
— and the majority population of the United
States is no longer even recognized by the
Democratic Party, and without recognition is not
represented in Congress—K Street Corporations
are in control .

“Most people don’t realize that prior to the 1970’s, there were no
corporate lobbyists on K Street. But since that time, they have
built an unprecedented web of power. And you can’t appease
people who are trying to keep you disconnected and in the dark.
It’s time to actively challenge the corporate influence in
Washington and build a movement that insists on real dialogue
and debate. And that depends on independent and inclusive
journalism. ”—Free Press Media Reform http://freepress.net

I totally agree with the above statement of freepress.net.

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By Anarcissie, April 20, 2011 at 12:30 am Link to this comment

Also, the oil is being eaten by bacteria (supposedly) which is metabolically the equivalent of burning it.  I would think that would warm things up a bit.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, April 19, 2011 at 8:04 pm Link to this comment

“Maybe they are inexorable, but humanity has a way of repaying those who sell out.”  The guys at the top will throw the trolls overboard first.  They’re already eating their own young by sending the ‘loyal’ ones off in our all volunteer army.  Internet trolls are even more expendable.

BP and the media:  we have a strange weather front coming across the US right now, it’s killed a few dozen in North Carolina already.  Apparently the waters of the Gulf are warmer than usual and sending up a lot of warm, moist air.  Think that might have anything to do with increased solar absorbance due to a thin film of widely dispersed oil?  I don’t know what the actual effects will be, but don’t tell me there will be none.  A thin, widely dispersed film is a powerful factor and will have some effect.  News coverage anyone??? 

With water, they are probably following the same pattern as with cable TV/internet gobbling up independents.  Electrical power is coming under private control in many places, but they haven’t started to turn the screws seriously yet. 

But to return to “repaying those who sell out”.  These disruptive dip-shits should sit quietly and let those who are working for the common good to continue without their idiotic distractions.  If you have less than 10 million in assets, and think you will be anywhere near the inside of the castle when the gates are closed, you’re a fool.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, April 19, 2011 at 3:30 pm Link to this comment

Mack, You might be right about water, but it’s not time to wirte of oil just yet. It powers the weapons economy,  all the investments that concern keeping the status quo, all the aspects surrounding the use of the latest ‘must have’, water. I look at water as just a capstone portfolio item, and the existing geo-political strategies surrounding oil are sure not to be neglected, they are more relevant than ever now that we’re getting serious about monopolizing control of water and food.  Can water and food be controlled without oil?  Perhaps, but oil is so damn handy for projecting force.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, April 19, 2011 at 1:54 pm Link to this comment

I don’t know Mack, Die Daily seems to have been counterpunching ‘prosefights’, who (prosefights) seems clearly to be clogging the forum with what one ‘good guy’ called ‘bunkum’.  I’ll remain neutral on DieDaily for the time being, using only the last few posts below as my data. 

To the general point, I singled out these sentences: ” The onslaught and the trickery will continue.  The guise will continue to grow more wily. Engaging them is fruitless and even detrimental to cause of Democracy.”  Yes indeed.  I know a guy who works on Madison Ave., and there are counterparts to Karl Rove, the Heritage Foundation, the Cato institute, there in every major corporation.  It’s evolved far from the decades old ‘PR department’. 

What I find understandable, is those trolls who actually have a big stake in the ‘status quo’, the geopolitics and economies surronding oil.  Those people see any ‘human progress’ as being diametrically opposed to the oil economy.  They cannot see that the new energy economies can and must evolve together.  But I understand their fears. 

What I laugh at are the trolls who have nothing really, and are doing the work of gathering for and influencing the ‘new intelligence framework’ (places like this) on behalf of those who have some real power.  The low level turds actually think their pitiful participation will be remembered and some gratitude will be shown for their loyalty!  Definition of fool.     

For lack of a better term, I’m going to say a new religion has been created with touchstones, group-think, ideology and dogma, and I just call them the ‘free marketeers’.  Like the mousekateers?  Anyway, the surrounding group-think has evolved over a few decades now.  And, how to counteract this mass schizophrenia in an open society seems a challenge.  The folks who devise strategy operate behind closed doors with reams of demographic data,  consumer profiles, sophisticated algorithms to process it, and smart people to guide it all.  Think about what one might do with a database of every communication that came from a given IP address.

In any case, I’m not so sure Chris Hedges is right when he states ‘this is what resistance looks like’.  One form may be to have develop the tactics for the digital battlefield that will allow good trends to develop, un-disrupted.  Voting trends, thinking trends, independent thought, coordinated actions.  We are like a herd, only able to hear the few cows near us.  What new forms of grassroots communication and control can exist below the radar?  Dunno.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, April 19, 2011 at 10:37 am Link to this comment

Dear Die,
I got your point, and just jabbed for fun.  Somehow I knew you’d take it in the proper spirit.

They do have PM’s (Private Messages), which I’d rather use but once, and here’s why….

I like these forums, where the ‘subversive’ topic can be discussed, sort of as it was intended by the first amendment to accomplish the necessary subversion of the stupidity we seem to be able to produce ad-infinitum irrespective of any law of physics.  As such, there are these darn trolls who disrupt things, because they see too many threats to the status-quo, which, from which they somehow find comfort.  So, on-going objective science-based discussions, and ultimately consensus and political action need to result if we are to pursue all manner of good things, including renewables.  I’m getting to my point about PM’s…... 

In such a forum, these darn ideological trollish morons need be excluded.  I am a bit concerned about the efforts of various think-tanks, and political apparatus to penetrate and/or disrupt legitimate discussion which might someday undermine there grip on power.  Call me paranoid, I don’t care, I’ve seen enough of their crap.  So, if and when such a forum comes into existence,  PM me and I’ll hop over there. 

Now, to try and make a link back to the topic of the Hedges article, I think ‘resistance’ might also take the form of a resurgence of ‘objective, science-based, common good oriented’ caucuses within the political parties, or perhaps as a sizable enough force to take over a party.  There are far better tactical political minds than mine, but I hope they can operate behind closed digital doors, for I am certain should any traction develop, the damn ideological trolls will run back to their masters to show how loyal they’ve been.  It’s a far, far weirder world than I’d thought we’d have by now.  Physics and engineering are childs play next to the damn social-psychological issues, huh?

The efforts to which the ‘status quo’ oriented folks go, and the social mechanisms that are involved in thwarting human progress are impressive and really must be taken into account.  It seems there is no natural mechanism, short of a catastrophic collapse, of correcting the short-term orientation of this widespread and pernicious segment of society.  I am convinced there are people among them who see this problem, but they can’t back away from it.  At an individual level, the tragedy of the commons and the prisoners dilemma keep far, far too many ordinary people from supporting something like an ‘energy moonshot’, a comprehensive national effort to re-tool and re-educate ourselves about the potential satisfaction of living a life of good stewardship of the planet.  OK, off my soapbox and back to work. 
Have a good one.

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DieDaily's avatar

By DieDaily, April 19, 2011 at 8:28 am Link to this comment

@John Best: yes, sir, you are right (about #3 unless
I argue tidal work, radioactive decay, and sheer
HUGENESS, which I could, lol) but, yes, you are right
and I would hope my point didn’t preclude this.

Futility and “certaintly” are epic and eternal
topics-of-struggle that I frequently find myself
engaged in with certain engineers. Such is the lot of
the mere Physicist.

All of that aside, Richard Alley is very fucking
brilliant. Holy dangerous subversive, Batman! Thank
you! This is so interesting to me that I’d love to
chat more, although I don’t know if TD has PMs? Let’s
do, though.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, April 19, 2011 at 8:17 am Link to this comment

Die Daily, On item 3, geothermal, of course you are cooling or heating the earth, depending on the heat pump’s mode (heating or cooling), and though the first law of thermodynamics must still apply, you are dealing with an extremely large ‘sink’.

On the other hand, though a solar panel would be impacted by more energy than it puts out, who cares?  The sun can be considered an infinite source.  The cost of manufacture vs. serviceable lifetime vs. efficiency is more the issue. 

That all said, you must realize the larger issue: distraction by bunkum.  prosefights presents masses off topic information which diverts from the potential discussions of ‘what resistance looks like’ from reaching certain outcomes.  A term ‘bunkum troll’ has been proposed for their sort.  But in any event, to deal with the diversionary tactic of this ‘bunkum troll’, which is sort of fashioned around forgetting about renewables, I offer the overarching analysis of this local scientist, Richard Alley, who does the necessary calculations and presents them clearly.  http://wpsu.org/earth_the_operators_manual_richard_alley
Yes, we can proceed toward a sustainable energy future, if we can ignore the ‘bunkum trolls’, and organize pressure (resistance?) to proceed toward a better future for all.

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