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This Is What Resistance Looks Like

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Posted on Apr 4, 2011
AP / Reed Saxon

A woman who sympathizes with people whose homes have been foreclosed is arrested at a protest outside a Chase bank in Los Angeles.

By Chris Hedges

We will not halt the laying off of teachers and other public employees, the slashing of unemployment benefits, the closing of public libraries, the reduction of student loans, the foreclosures, the gutting of public education and early childhood programs or the dismantling of basic social services such as heating assistance for the elderly until we start to carry out sustained acts of civil disobedience against the financial institutions responsible for our debacle. The banks and Wall Street, which have erected the corporate state to serve their interests at our expense, caused the financial crisis. The bankers and their lobbyists crafted tax havens that account for up to $1 trillion in tax revenue lost every decade. They rewrote tax laws so the nation’s most profitable corporations, including Bank of America, could avoid paying any federal taxes. They engaged in massive fraud and deception that wiped out an estimated $40 trillion in global wealth. The banks are the ones that should be made to pay for the financial collapse. Not us. And for this reason at 11 a.m. April 15 I will join protesters in Union Square in New York City in front of the Bank of America.

“The political process no longer works,” Kevin Zeese, the director of Prosperity Agenda and one of the organizers of the April 15 event, told me. “The economy is controlled by a handful of economic elites. The necessities of most Americans are no longer being met. The only way to change this is to shift the power to a culture of resistance. This will be the first in a series of events we will organize to help give people control of their economic and political life.”

If you are among the one in six workers in this country who does not have a job, if you are among the some 6 million people who have lost their homes to repossessions, if you are among the many hundreds of thousands of people who went bankrupt last year because they could not pay their medical bills or if you have simply had enough of the current kleptocracy, join us in Union Square Park for the “Sounds of Resistance Concert,” which will feature political hip-hop/rock powerhouse Junkyard Empire with Broadcast Live and Sketch the Cataclysm. The organizers have set up a website, and there’s more information on their Facebook page.

We will picket the Union Square branch of Bank of America, one of the major financial institutions responsible for the theft of roughly $17 trillion in wages, savings and retirement benefits taken from ordinary citizens. We will build a miniature cardboard community that will include what we should have—good public libraries, free health clinics, banks that have been converted into credit unions, free and well-funded public schools and public universities, and shuttered recruiting centers (young men and women should not have to go to Iraq and Afghanistan as soldiers or Marines to find a job with health care). We will call for an end to all foreclosures and bank repossessions, a breaking up of the huge banking monopolies, a fair system of taxation and a government that is accountable to the people.

The 10 major banks, which control 60 percent of the economy, determine how our legislative bills are written, how our courts rule, how we frame our public debates on the airwaves, who is elected to office and how we are governed. The phrase consent of the governed has been turned by our two major political parties into a cruel joke. There is no way to vote against the interests of Goldman Sachs. And the faster these banks and huge corporations are broken up and regulated, the sooner we will become free.

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Bank of America is one of the worst. It did not pay any federal taxes last year or the year before. It is currently one of the most aggressive banks in seizing homes, at times using private security teams that carry out brutal home invasions to toss families into the street. The bank refuses to lend small business people and consumers the billions in government money it was handed. It has returned with a vengeance to the flagrant criminal activity and speculation that created the meltdown, behavior made possible because the government refuses to institute effective sanctions or control from regulators, legislators or the courts. Bank of America, like most of the banks that peddled garbage to small shareholders, routinely hid its massive losses through a creative accounting device it called “repurchase agreements.” It used these “repos” during the financial collapse to temporarily erase losses from the books by transferring toxic debt to dummy firms before public filings had to be made. It is called fraud. And Bank of America is very good at it.

US Uncut, which will be involved in the April 15 demonstration in New York, carried out 50 protests outside Bank of America branches and offices on Feb. 26. UK Uncut, a British version of the group, produced this video guide to launching a “bail-in” in your neighborhood.

Civil disobedience, such as that described in the bail-in video or the upcoming protest in Union Square, is the only tool we have left. A fourth of the country’s largest corporations—including General Electric, ExxonMobil and Bank of America—paid no federal income taxes in 2010. But at the same time these corporations operate as if they have a divine right to hundreds of billions in taxpayer subsidies. Bank of America was handed $45 billion—that is billion with a B—in federal bailout funds. Bank of America takes this money—money you and I paid in taxes—and hides it along with its profits in some 115 offshore accounts to avoid paying taxes. One assumes the bank’s legions of accountants are busy making sure the corporation will not pay federal taxes again this year. Imagine if you or I tried that.


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By Cliff Carson, May 27, 2011 at 2:32 pm Link to this comment

John Best

“To that end, I again advocate that we promote the idea of a ‘revitalized and updated social contract’.  Something roughly like:
Medicare for ALL, Military service for ALL, Damn good FREE education for ALL who work to keep their grades up, Everybody is responsible to find work from right after school/military until they are 60, at which point, social security, completely adjusted for inflation, is available. Work is respected.  Hubris is detested.  We take care of our old, young and sick.  That is America.”

Hooray for what you have written here John.  It is an achievable goal, a worthy goal, and a moral and ethical goal. 

Gary Mont
You have tried mightily to placate someone who shows all the symptoms of Aperger’s Syndrome.  She seems likely to be afflicted with this mental disorder.  The key is the fixation and repetitive absurd traits she lives.  We need to be kind to her and let her down gently.  There is treatment for this very destructive aliment but not much hope of recovery.
 
I hope we can continue to talk about Social Contracts.  MarthA is one who could benefit from such.  Moral and Ethical Social Contracts are what we need to force this Government to live up to our trust.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, May 27, 2011 at 2:11 pm Link to this comment

Good advice N-Gaunt.
Gary, I think the direction will ooze forth, as societal change does.  I don’t think it can be planned.  We move like an amoeba, without a nervous system.  The thing might or might not move in a direction that’s good for it. 

I agree with you about traditional revolution as it’s romanticized…...aint a place for it in our current situation.  It would help the bad guys.  But people will and are looking for answers.  This is why the evangelical church is so successful. 

In the absence of an understanding of what governments role is, and peoples ‘entitlements’ and responsibilities are, politicians, preachers, and the media are free to push shit into our heads.  But if every citizen agreed on about what our operating basis is, the social contract, then every time some politician tried to bullshit them, those people would have a baseline idea to compare the bullshit to.  The effect: it would be tougher for jerk politicians to stay in office if the tool of bullshitting the populace were removed.

Just look at Medicare.  There already is a broad understanding that people worked for it, funded it by working all their lives, and now they are entitled to it.  And, they are showing the righties they’re serious about keeping it. 

I wish I could say education were in the same boat…...the kids who are leaving college with massive debts really never had any idea that their college should be highly subsidized, and that as a result, we expected them to contribute to society at a later time in their lives.  The problem is our kids were never educated that if they studied hard and kept their grades up, college is free, they are entitled to it because we older working people agree to pay for it.  Even public universities and certainly public high schools are feeling the pressure toward privatization, for-profit operation. 

I’m in favor of including mandatory military service in the social contract because having the entire population (all segments, not just the small demographic groups we now have) would give everybody equal incentives to pay closer attention to how, why and when we deploy troops.  It changes the nature and makeup of who advances too, so the military itself isn’t quite so easily controlled by the right wing.

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By Night-Gaunt, May 27, 2011 at 1:55 pm Link to this comment

You have no conception, you are trapped in your own little world looking through it with your own colored glasses. Come out sometime and see the world and communicate like a person, not a machine. Don’t be so rigid.

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By MarthaA, May 27, 2011 at 1:36 pm Link to this comment

You, Night-Gaunt, are one more advocate for “x-liver=DEATH
Representation” by the Hard-Right and Lite-Right for the
American Populace in the making and enforcing of legislated law and
order in the United States, right, Night-Gaunt?

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By Night-Gaunt, May 27, 2011 at 12:59 pm Link to this comment

She is not much better than a robot. Don’t feed the trolls.

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By MarthaA, May 27, 2011 at 11:06 am Link to this comment

For me, Gary Mont, x-liver=DEAD, and if you and John
Best
cannot figure that out, you have nothing to say that is of
value with regard to engineering a social contract.

The American people already have a sufficiency of Hard Right
and Lite Right
representation trying to foist off x-liver=DEAD
Healthcare on them, while using Hitleresque sophism and
Hitleresque dialectic to explain in plain English and tools of
double-speak that x-liver=DEAD is an acceptable standard of
medical care for the American Populace.

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By MarthaA, May 27, 2011 at 10:43 am Link to this comment

“In my view, we should follow that tradition and continue to build
on the social obligations, entitlements and responsibilities in a
broadly communicative way, in plain English, so those who would
use the tools of double-speak will have a more difficult time.”
— John Best, May 27 at 6:50 am

Plain English and tools of double-speak based upon what
standard? ——that is the question? ——————————

Plain English and tools of double-speak that are based upon
Hitleresque dialectic and Hitleresque sophism, or———

Plain English and tools of double-speak that are refuted as
Hitleresque dialectic and Hitleresque sophism in favor of x=x
sublation that is a “unity of balance,” so that if one side of the
equation is “out of balance,”  as in the case of Gary
Mont’s
liver, it is readily obvious that x-liver does not reflect
an “x=x unity of balance.”

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By Gary Mont, May 27, 2011 at 10:38 am Link to this comment

Like Clockwork. You’re utterly predictable child.

Ignore everything as if yours’ are the only important words possible and repeat the magical incantation.

Oh well, children will be children. buhbye smile

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By MarthaA, May 27, 2011 at 10:29 am Link to this comment

Gary Mont’s post does not address the
status of his LIVER in x=x sublation.

Gary, if x equals your body as a whole
on one side of the equation, what is the value of
x on the opposite of the equal sign? ——the
answer is that the sum of your organs and your
structure on the opposite side of the equal sign
are the sum of x that is the same on both sides
of the equal sign if there is a “unity of balance.”

The answer is that if your liver is missing on one
side of the equal sign that there is NO x=x
sublated balance between your body as a whole
on one side of the equal sign, and the sum of the
parts and structure on the opposite side of the
equal sign, because on one side of the equal
sign your liver is missing
; this results in
x=x-liver, no unity of balance.

If you, Gary Mont, do not have the
ability to conceive of a “unity of balance”
concerning your OWN LIVER
, why on earth
do you think that anyone would consider that
you have anything meaningful to say as regards
the “unity of balance” of a social
contract?

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By Gary Mont, May 27, 2011 at 10:02 am Link to this comment

Couldn’t help myself actually.

Decided to lay bare the whole claim and show the world Martha is merely a hole with a “Genius At Work” sign next to it.

I’m just tired of reading the same meaningless psuedo-sentences over and over.

But you’re right, it truly is a waste of time. She’ll be posting her tantrum this afternoon, like clockwork and will ignore everything and simply make the same stupid gibberish claim using the same magical incantation as always. Guess I should just get used to it.

As to the Social Contract, while I feel it is absolutely a necessity, I cannot help but feel there will be no value in it if there is no nation left to read it.

I can still see no way to hinder the negative process of the banking and political business moguls, short of complete national shutdown.

I read an article yesterday that tried to compare the difference between a slow painful national demise through the destruction of all social systems, one after the other until finally the nation collapses completely under the weight of the plutocracy itself - and the quick disolutionment brought about by a full civil strike, civil disobedience and civil sabotage, such as happened in the USSR under the direction of the 2 Popes and the CIA.

While I have never advocated violence, simply because the Plutocracy revels in violence and truly desires - like children with firecrackers - to use violence against the peasants ASAP, it is becoming more and more attractive as the political minions dismantle more and more of the nation’s infrastructure.

I still know for a fact however, that any sort of armed rebelion would be met with a continuosly revised and well rehearsed and extremely efficient military response, so I still seek some other route.

It has always saddened me how the army, composed of the children of some of the poorest families in America, can be convinced so easily to kill, maim and capture the other citizens of the nation when the wealthy demand it.

However, I see no peaceful conclusion to this dillemna and no possibility of the wealthy coming to their senses before the point of no return is reached.

A social contract for the new era is needed, but a direction to the new era is paramount.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, May 27, 2011 at 6:50 am Link to this comment

Gary, Your time is far too valuable to waste on an ill-intentioned idiot.  One could get wrapped up in the pathology of such people, but I think it’s such a rare strain as to not be particularly useful.  Now, there are indeed misguided people who’s type and numbers are significant, and need be dealt with in some manner.  For instance, the sorts of folks who spread little right wing talking bits, true minions, who are damaged by the poor policy which ironically, they spread. 

It might be worthwhile to try and reach those folks because they are not necessarily ill-intentioned, and perhaps if the issues were laid our truthfully and clearly, in plain English, they might become an asset. 

Our founding documents were not laid out by charlatans using some pseudo-math.  They laid out a reasonably clear basis for general understanding.  In my view, we should follow that tradition and continue to build on the social obligations, entitlements and responsibilities in a broadly communicative way, in plain English, so those who would use the tools of double-speak will have a more difficult time. 

To that end, I again advocate that we promote the idea of a ‘revitalized and updated social contract’.  Something roughly like:
Medicare for ALL, Military service for ALL, Damn good FREE education for ALL who work to keep their grades up, Everybody is responsible to find work from right after school/military until they are 60, at which point, social security, completely adjusted for inflation, is available. Work is respected.  Hubris is detested.  We take care of our old, young and sick.  That is America.

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By Gary Mont, May 27, 2011 at 12:11 am Link to this comment

Science and mathematics are “two” examples of the use of a pretty “herd of unicorn.”

No they’re not. They’ve nothing whatsoever to do with your Hegelian mathmatica. In mathematics, when you add a positive to a negative of equal value, you end up with a zero value. In Hegelian Mathmatica, you add the negative of a thing to the positive of a thing and pretend that a third thing is the result. The new thing is simply pulled right out of your Hegelian ass.
That’s why Hegel named his Magic Spell Mathmatica instead of claiming as you do that its really Mathematics.

And once again you show the whole world that you’ve got nothing, and instead you play the magic word game again. Pathetic child.

——-

Do you find science and mathematics to be meaningless?<i>

Your childish fantasy versions of Science and Mathematics? Where a positive and a negative of equal value create something other than zero?  Yes, I find your version of science and mathemetics to be absolutely meaningless. Real science and mathematics; on the other hand, I use every day and find very useful.

——

<i>For you personally, Gary Mont, I suggest that you think of a “herd of unicorn” in the following way; on one side of the equal sign you exist in the form of your human body, and on the other side of the equal sign you exist as the organs and structure that
makes up your human body.

To what end? There is no natural result from adding myself to my negative self. I end up with nothing mathematically. Your example isn’t even correctly phrased in terms of Hegelian mathmatica, since the other side of the equal sign needs to contain the opposite of me in order to fulfill your magic Hegelian Mathmatica formulae. You still got nothing.

——

What would the unicorn of your human body be on one side of the equal sign, if an organ on the other side of the equal sign was missing, say your liver?<i>

Again, the other side of your Hegelian equal sign needs to contain my negative self, and any organs missing from that negative self affects the negative side of the equation only. But that obviously matters not since the result of this silliness has nothing at all to do with the equal sign or the equation itself. It is simply the method used by the Hegelian Mystic, to give credence to the “concrete” already decided upon. Your batting zero still.


——-

<i>Would there be a “herd of unicorn” on both sides of the equal sign if your liver was missing on one side of the equal sign?

What was the point of the equal sign if you can simply take away parts of one side or the other at will. Your equality fails the second you remove the liver or any part or portion of either side and your equation becomes even more meaningless than normal - if such is even possible.

You really are a child pretending to be an adult right. You’re now going to have another massive tantrum - I can almost feel it coming.

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By MarthaA, May 26, 2011 at 9:38 pm Link to this comment

“I simply pointed out that claiming something must have sublated
unity of balance is as meaningless as saying something must have
painted shininess of purple.”—Gary Mont, May 26 at 8:57 pm

Science and mathematics are “two”
examples of the use of a sublated “unity of balance.”

Do you find science and mathematics to be meaningless?

For you personally, Gary Mont, I suggest that you think of
a “unity of balance” in the following way; on one side of the equal
sign you exist in the form of your human body, and on the other side of the equal sign you exist as the organs and structure that
makes up your human body.

What would the balance of your human body be on one side of the
equal sign, if an organ on the other side of the equal sign was
missing, say your liver?

Would there be a “unity of balance” on both sides of the equal
sign if your liver was missing on one side of the equal sign?

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By Gary Mont, May 26, 2011 at 8:57 pm Link to this comment

Martha, you have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about.

You use that four word claim - sublated unity of balance - like its a magical incantation that will make all things right, yet you’re utterly incapable of doing anything but repeating the claim over and over again.

Challenged to explain your claims, you merely poo poo the challenger and repeat again your incredibly menaingless formulae.

Asked how would one explain this magical statement to those you claim must understand and use it, you ignore the request and repeat once again the same claim.

Asked to show how this sublated unity of balance works, or even to show an example of it in action and again your reaction is to ignore the request and again repeat the claim.

Ignored by the crowd for being such a jerk, you become an even bigger jerk and flood the forum with ream upon ream of the same sentence attached to every thing written about by others.

Community must have sublated unity of balance…
Freedom must have sublated unity of balance…
A Social Contract must have sublated unity of balance…

I simply pointed out that claiming something must have sublated unity of balance is as meaningless as saying something must have painted shininess of purple.

You however, are such a complete fanatical believer in this magical spell you found that its exactly like talking to a 10 year old who has been fully indoctrinated into the Christ Myth by a pair of fanatical evangelical parents. There’s simply nobody home anymore.

—-

Show one example of your sublated unity of balance in operation, effectively doing what you claim it does, and I will publically retract every word of this missive.

Show you actually know what you’re talking about and are not just parroting the magic words.

—-

Refuse, and I will assume you are simply a ten year old child having a tantrum and treat you as such, by reposting (when I feel like it) any of your sublated unity of balance claims I choose, replacing your magic words with those of my choosing.

If you want to act like a child, you will be treated like a child.

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By MarthaA, May 26, 2011 at 5:11 pm Link to this comment

What does make sense is that Gary Mont’s post
demonstrates clearly that he is a sophist that
wants to obfuscate
the clarity of sublated unity and that as a result
he is in support of
Hard Right and Lite Right duopolistic
control of the
American Populace, the 70% Majority Common
Population of the
United States.

There are those who seek the Light of clarity
based upon a “unity
of balance,” and there are those who seek the
darkness of
sophist obfuscation; and you have declared
yourself as the latter,
rather than the former.

It is good to know from you that your choice is
that of the Dark
Side
, rather than the Light.

Say hello for me to OzarkMichaelOzarkMichael
has been the leader of the dark side here on the
Truthdig forum. 
Will you be going with your dark side leader from
the Truthdig
forum?—or will you be staying to maintain a
presence for the
Hard Right Dark Side of American politics as
OzarkMichael’s avatar?

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By Gary Mont, May 26, 2011 at 3:39 pm Link to this comment

Do you suppose, John Best that your social contract based upon pyjama top will result in social benefit to anyone other than those who engineer the social contract????

A community works upon painted shininess, if it is a community.

A group of people who are led by pyjama top is a CULT, and we have had greater and lesser cults down through the ages.

At the current time, here in America, we are experiencing the cult of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness with freedom and
justice for all.

What America needs is painted in act, deed, and doctrine to transform the “cult of pyjama top” into painted “shininess of purple.”

=====

Just wanted to see if it made any better sense using a different set of meaningless terms instead of sophism, sublated, unity and balance.

Nope. Same gobbledy gook as always.

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By MarthaA, May 26, 2011 at 9:32 am Link to this comment

Do you suppose, John Best that your social contract
based upon sophism will result in social benefit to anyone other
than those who engineer the social contract????

A community works upon sublated unity, if it is a community.

A group of people who are led by sophism is a CULT, and we have
had greater and lesser cults down through the ages.

At the current time, here in America, we are experiencing the cult
of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness with freedom and
justice for all.

What America needs is sublation in act, deed, and doctrine to
transform the “cult of sophism” into sublated “unity of balance.”

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, May 25, 2011 at 11:26 pm Link to this comment

“When there is no sense of community, why do you or anyone else think that the community should care?”

How are you going to revive any sense of community without a social contract (New Deal, etc) which can be understood by anyone, regardless of class??

And, we promote greed as a virtue, as the motivator for hard work, and we need hard work.  Unfortunately, promoting greed only promotes accumulation by the most efficient means, usually some form of thievery.  Greed, hubris, excessive consumption, selfishness, etc, are part of our culture.  They are constantly reinforced through the media.  To improve the sense of community, we have a lot of psychological conditioning to undo, and we must fight our very nature.

Where is the money in that?  The media is the pathway to the public mind, and the gate is controlled by the commercial interests that own the FCC.

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By MarthaA, May 25, 2011 at 10:18 pm Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt, May 25 at 6:25 pm,

A Conservative Left and a Conservative Right.

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By Night-Gaunt, May 25, 2011 at 6:25 pm Link to this comment

Give an example of a “light right democrat” working with a “hard right republican” please? Now there are DINOs out there and they are the ones who are of the same ilk as those in the Republican party.

Look up the amazing win in the special election in the 26th district in New York by a Democrat over a Republican and a Tea Party Repub. A sign of things to come.

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By MarthaA, May 25, 2011 at 5:36 pm Link to this comment

“First not all of the Middle Class, that remains, is helping their own
demise. Just those on the Reich wing who believes all the BS from
the GOP. However even they won’t want their Social Security,
Medicare and Medicaid destroyed. They just won’t stand for it and
the Republicans see that now. But it doesn’t change their mind
since it is all part of a large agenda they have had for a long time
to eliminate all aspects of the gains made by Progressives since
World War II.”—Night-Gaunt, May 25 at 4:07 pm

If this is the way that the Lite-Right Democrats really feel, why are
the Lite-Right Democrats cooperators with the Hard-Right, instead
of being a part of the Left? ——Apparently you are talking about a
really small minority that do not have sufficient power and control
to point the Democratic Party in the direction of leadership of the
Left.

Personally, I have not heard anything, from anyone in the
Democratic Party that would give me reason to believe that the
Democratic party even wants to represent the American Populace
as the Political Left.

I have been trying as a member of the DNC for many years to get
the Democratic Party to acknowledge the existence of the
American Populace, and that the American Populace needs to be
represented in the making and enforcing of legislated law and
order, and I have been met with passive resistance and refusal to
acknowledge even that the American Populace exists as a class
and culture in the United States.  This is fact—not fiction.

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By MarthaA, May 25, 2011 at 4:34 pm Link to this comment

So long as people like you are willing to ignore patterns of
perception for pedantic parsing of fractionalized parts of the
pattern and willing to be led to chase that false sense of
advantage, GREED, that is represented by pedantic parsing, the
GREEDY will be able to use your greed to serve their GREEDY
interests.

When the GREEDY are swindled by the GREEDY, what results is
nothing more than one GREEDY PERSON complaining that another
GREEDY PERSON got advantage; why should anyone care——this
is the quandary of the Hard-Right Republicans and the
Lite-Right Democrats
and the Lite-Right Democrats wanting the
American Populace to care; the American Populace do NOT care
about the Lite-Right Democrats, and why should they? ——the
Lite-Right Democrats threw them away to become a NEW CLASS.

When there is no sense of community, why do you or anyone else
think that the community should care?

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By Night-Gaunt, May 25, 2011 at 4:07 pm Link to this comment

First not all of the Middle Class, that remains, is helping their own demise. Just those on the Reich wing who believes all the BS from the GOP. However even they won’t want their Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid destroyed. They just won’t stand for it and the Republicans see that now. But it doesn’t change their mind since it is all part of a large agenda they have had for a long time to eliminate all aspects of the gains made by Progressives since World War II.

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By MarthaA, May 25, 2011 at 3:59 pm Link to this comment

“It is the Middle Class that is being destroyed here pushing more
into the large and growing pool of the working poor. Just like it
was before the New Deal.”
Night-Gaunt, May 25 at 2:13 pm

‘Oh woe is me,’ whines Night-Gaunt for the Lite-Right
Middle Class, as they cooperate with the Hard-Right Aristocracy
and wonder’s why no one from the American Populace, the 70%
majority common population gives a care about their plight.

If the Lite-Right Middle Class don’t like their loss of voting strength
they should not have thrown it away with the American Populace,
and declared their walled and gated communities separate and
apart from the American Populace as a NEW CLASS.

What most of you brain dead Lite-Right Middle Class wanna be’s
really are, are genteel peasants that are a part of the American
Populace, that are to atrophied in mental process to defend your
own class and culture, and are willing to be fractionalized and
separated from your own class and cultural interests, because you
are busy choosing a false sense of advantage based upon the
disadvantage of your own class and culture, the American
Populace.  This is a hard truth, but it is the truth.

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By MarthaA, May 25, 2011 at 3:22 pm Link to this comment

In a word, Gary Mont’s,  May 25 at 10:05 am post resolves
itself down to financialization, and
financialization is what destroyed
the U.S. Economy.

Financialization is a cyclical problem that
has been going on for
hundreds of years.

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By Cliff Carson, May 25, 2011 at 3:11 pm Link to this comment

The subject of Usury brought up here reminds me of what I experienced about three years ago. 

You all may recall that during the Bush TARP bailouts - yes the Bailouts started in 2007, and the Credit Card companies re-action when the free money hit their coffers.

You all might remember that the stated purpose of the bailouts was to allow the Financial Institutions to be able to furnish easier credit so that the economy might recover.  That was when the Republicans still had a hope of winning in 2008.  Well they got the money but when the Democrats got in the Majority money availability went south didn’t it.  That’s another story - it has do do with the usury imposed on moral ethical conduct.

Anyway Usury is something I had been writing about because of its invisible influence.  About then I was trying to buy a new home and the deal was already done pending the owners ability to give a clean deed. That never happened so I never bought the house, but I had already gotten a binder on the home and the Agent made the comment that my good credit score meant that the Homeowners policy would cost about 40% less because of the credit score, I got to thinking about that and wondered what justified increased risk there might be to warrant a difference of 40%.  I found through research that the difference in risk between Excellent and Good was about a 3% increase in losses over a five year history of data.

Naturally I wondered how a 3% increased risk could warrant a 40% difference in premiums.  That’s when I decided it was a form of usury.  Since most Insurance is incestuously tied to Financial Institutions often direct ownership, it seemed to me that an excuse rather than a reason was utilized to fleece the policyholders.  There was no reason for the increased cost other than a straw-man named greed.

Credit Card Companies and Insurance Companies working in concert could both pad their bottom line with no actual increased risk simply by doubling up.  Those who wanted to save on the cost of Insurance would be wise to keep their Cards current even though there is little relation of one risk to the other.

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By Night-Gaunt, May 25, 2011 at 2:13 pm Link to this comment

It is the Middle Class that is being destroyed here pushing more into the large and growing pool of the working poor. Just like it was before the New Deal.

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MarthaA's avatar

By MarthaA, May 25, 2011 at 1:21 pm Link to this comment

In case you want to know how the populace Left, the American
Populace, will be expected to work in the future, the following article
may give you a clue as to the type of slavery the Ruling Middle Class
Lite Right expects to foist off on the populace Left, from the Left:

http://www.alternet.org/story/151074/reverse_offshoring_or_yet_more_evidence_of_corporate_america’s_squeeze_on_workers?akid=7010.130864.MEW8PY&rd=1&t=15

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By Gary Mont, May 25, 2011 at 12:58 pm Link to this comment

Sadly, even the smallest amount of interest will quickly lead to the “situation” where certain members will cause the necessary crisis to make it appear as if it has becomes necessary to raise the amount of usury. Its inevitable. The only way to prevent usury is to prevent usury.

Once it exists in a system, even in the most minute form, it is the carrot that creates the need for greed, and will quickly turn any monetary system into another private dead-cash-earns-more-cash system like we have today.

This is so because those with great wads of cash can see instantly that with ususry, their unused cash can earn money just by sitting in a box in a vault - guaranteed money with no risk of loss. The more they horde, the more they earn, and the less cash that remains in circulation for others.

Ususry is the undoing of a properly functioning currency, every time.

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MarthaA's avatar

By MarthaA, May 25, 2011 at 12:53 pm Link to this comment

With regard to Dialectic 101, an article I recently
published on Truthdig forum, and the paragraph that was deleted
andNOT allowed to be posted on the Truthdig forum; today, May
25, 2011 at 12:15 pm, I posted that same paragraph backwards as a
MarthaA post and it is now on this ‘This is What
Resistance Looks Like’ thread.

The paragraph indicates how to establish more complex dialectic,
was posted at the request of John Best, and was apparently
blocked from publication in some way because the paragraph
indicates how to formulate more complex dialectic.

I am concerned that this paragraph has been censored from my
posts in some way continues to be censored from my post if it is
not written backwards; I am hopeful that Truthdig as a forum
shares my concern.

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By MarthaA, May 25, 2011 at 12:31 pm Link to this comment

Those who benefit from imbalance, John Best worry
disproportionately about confidence, faith, and benefit to others.

With social capital that is part of an
overall social system based upon
a “unity of balance,” disproportionate factors of confidence, greed,
and faith would diminish to the extent that a “unity of balance” was
achieved, and capital was used to provide a revenue stream for the
benefit of community interests, rather than private interests.

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By MarthaA, May 25, 2011 at 12:15 pm Link to this comment

Effect to cause from leads inexorably that end the and beginning the
between relationship causal a establish and end an, effect an,
beginning a, cause a select to is process the language upon based
dialectic complex more establish to.

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By MarthaA, May 25, 2011 at 12:04 pm Link to this comment

Usury like anything else, GaryMont, can be incorporated into
a “unity of balance” in the same way that creation is incorporated
into chaos in a “unity of balance” in the natural world.

A “unity of balance” is the key, and an x=x way of determining both
balance and imbalance that is apart from self serving interests of
sensory and emotional perception.

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By MarthaA, May 25, 2011 at 11:57 am Link to this comment

No problem will be made better by an imbalanced approach of
illogically bases sophism, as John Best infers.

If a problem of imbalance is to be balanced, balance cannot be
denied, and an approach of ideologically based sophism used to
create balance; sublation is the solution to balance, so that the
imbalance can be quantified and a “unity of balance”
achieved.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, May 25, 2011 at 11:49 am Link to this comment

Oh, you can get cash for bitcoin,
https://www.bitcoin4cash.com/
or credit,
https://www.bitcoin2cc.com/
And here’s why it’s probably doomed…
http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/

The problem is these local LETS systems, and even an OS LETS like bitcoin will be traded, get a market value, then diluted because of the prisoners dilemma.  Bitcoin users are the prisoners….each knows they don’t want to be the one holding the bag of bitcoins if there is a run away from them.  So, well intentioned efforts will self dilute because of human weakness of the users themselves.  The ‘weakness’ is just the lack of confidence in all the other users ability to stick with the program.  Classic prisoners dilemma.

So, anyone promoting these alternative systems is actually just providing something new for the traders on Wall St. to dangle in front of dupes (er, uh, I mean investors) to bet on (er, uh, I mean ‘invest in’). 

I apologize for the diversion into BitCoin / LETS, the problem is the FED and the ability to manipulate the value of the current currency.  In my stupidly simple engineering world, the currency would be a MegaJoule note and a gallon of gasoline would be fixed at 130 Megajoules, which is not coincidentally the amount of energy contained in that gallon of gasoline.  Selling gasoline for any more or less would be punishable.  A KWh of electricity would be fixed now and forever at 3.611 MegaJoule notes.  Certan other fundamental necessities would also be fixed and fixed in the public mind as something that can be counted on.  Anyone caught trying to undermine the system would be punished as a subversive.  Now…..let everything else trade!  There are now anchors to keep free floating unwarranted speculation at bay.

It is difficult to imagine how this would affect general thinking, but how we value investments would be far more understandable and concrete.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, May 25, 2011 at 11:15 am Link to this comment

There is a cost associated with maintaining the confidence in the system.  The whole thing with money is faith.  Everyone must have faith that the money will have value in the future.  This is the problem with BitCoin. 

At any point, for completely stupid reasons, people can have a mass loss of faith.  Of course this can happen with dollars or gold or tulip bulbs, so, the currency that is backed by the government which is willing to do whatever it takes, including imprison it’s people, to back the value of it’s obligations…...that’s the government with the strongest currency, i.e. the greatest overall faith in it’s currency. 

But you know this, we were talking about the need for usury/interest, and IMO, there is indeed a need for interest, but not ‘usury’, which is “the lending of money at unreasonably high interest rates”.

The short term transactional value of currency, I agree has minimal cost.  Some maintenance costs, yes.  Server time, physical notes, etc., but so minimal as to barely warrant a perceptible interest charge. 

The long term ‘value carrying capability’ of money is where the abuses come in.  Usury, devaluation, and shell games.  We can talk about the money equivalent value of stocks and bonds, where all three can be manipulated by the market owners.
But to return to ‘confidence’, as I offer, maintaining confidence in money has a cost.  Interest pays this cost.  I’m sure you’re aware of the relationship between faith and money, how absolutely essential faith is for the stuff to work.  Faith does not have to be expensive.  What is incredibly expensive is feeding hordes of unproductive middlemen, and the greed of the keepers of the temple financial.  Feeding these unproductive pigs is where the usury money goes. 

It seems eventually, the greedy and/or lazy find a spot in the financial/trade/regulatory infrastructure, absorbing all excess production. 

But I maintain some interest must be charged for the legitimate costs of a financial system, or it will die from lack of faith.  Too much interest kills for the same reason.  I like to draw a definition of ‘usury’ as anything beyond a legitimate carrying cost.  Interest rates should be capped at that point.  Establishing this point is almost impossible with real human beings for any period of time.  Any unity of balance would be a complex time dependent function. 

My opinion, of course.

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By Gary Mont, May 25, 2011 at 10:05 am Link to this comment

John Best:... under which lies the basic problem with money, the price extracted as usury.

I don’t think usury is a natural or inevitable aspect of any monetary system. It can be eliminated and currency still functions as a means of exchange for goods and services.

The idea of a community currency is not to make a small group of people wealthy, like the current usury based Federal note system. It is meant to facilitate the exchange of goods and services at the lowest possible expense among members of a community.

Taking out a loan in an paper-free, electronic, non-usury system, carries a one-time transaction cost for administration of the loan and paying back the loan, while it bears no threat of due date or accumulated interest burden, does carry the community awareness of the debtor’s dilligence or deliquency and thus affects all future transactions among others in the community.

A paperless electronic usury free monetary system is literally a co-operative venture belonging to all its members and all loans and holdings carried electronically by the “bank” are 100% open to all members.

Thus, those who want to accumulate vast wealth through usury, or hide their horde behind the secrecy of the banking vaults, would have no use for the community currency concept and would simply continue banking through normal greed-bank channels.

On the other hand, should a store owner desire to expand his shop, he could take out a loan equivalent to the cost - in time dollars - of the various trades he would need to hire to do the work. These trades would all be local members of the “bank” and would be paid through the loan made by the store owner. No money changes hand. The earned income by other trade members would go towards paying off loans they had made, or accumulate to show a positive balance in their account.

You cannot turn Time Dollars into Fed Notes.

Similarly, the store owner, once his new extension was complete, would use the extra income to pay off the loan as soon as possible in order that a new loan would be available if needed later and so that the community can see his debt gets repaid fast.

The mechanism for getting a loan is based on your ability to pay the loan back. Tardy repayers are often refused a new loan, or offered a smaller loan by the community bank until they can pay back the original, or a debt ceiling can be maintained or whatever other mechanism the community might establish.

The idea here is not to make money, but to make money available for the needs of the community. It seems the hardest part of all this is to see the bank as not a greed-based operation.

Time dollars can easily be given an arbitrary value generated by community aggreement, based generally on minimum wage and may be altered electronically according to inflation, etc., if desired, or not, as desired by the community.

Its an open concept.

Adding usury at any point kills the thing dead.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, May 25, 2011 at 9:30 am Link to this comment

The problem with money is it is a manipulable charade.  A tool in the hands of those who extract more from the system than they contribute. 

IMO, re-branding money as a ‘labor equivalent dollar’ would only propagate the charade, under which lies the basic problem with money, the price extracted as usury. 

Minimum wages are another matter…..regardless of monetary system, does a person have a right to be carried by others?  To consume more than they might produce?  Then what does that say about the other end of the spectrum, “......the ‘media economist’, or the hedge fund manager, or the insurance broker”? 

I re-submit, “..... with a runaway population of increasingly ignorant people, what’s the point?”

Productivity and carrying capacity is the issue.  Carrying capacity of the ‘productive’, and of the eco-system.

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By MarthaA, May 25, 2011 at 9:12 am Link to this comment

I advocate, John Best, that we define all of society with regard to
a “unity of balance”, x=x; and that money as benefit, together
with responsibility and effort should be a part of the overall “unity
of balance in the x=x equation.

In this context, money would be the basis of social capital and
private capital, and privatized capitalism would be in competition
with social capital and socialized capitalism, rather than as is the
present case where private capital and privatized capitalism is
cyclically reliant upon social capital to recapitalize private capital
and bring privatized capitalism back to life, when it cyclically fails,
as has been the case from the time of its origin, without social
benefit being derived from social WELFARE that is
expended for private benefit.

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By Anarcissie, May 25, 2011 at 7:42 am Link to this comment

It’s very hard to standardize the value of labor in particular cases.  However, I think that across a large set of people, you will observe a practical minimum wage.  This will be for unskilled, uncredentialed, ununionized, temporary, not-too-difficult manual labor, so it will form a fairly pure case of people putting in the time and a certain amount of energy and attention—fully commodified labor.  I think this wage rate, in terms of basic consumer commodities (like energy), is probably pretty consistent, although I admit that’s just a guess and I have done zero research outside of casual observation to back it up.

If my hypothesis is correct, then there is a way of determining the value of labor at a given place and time.  How this could be translated into the mechanisms of monetary policy is another question.  In effect, whenever this minimum real wage went up, this monetary policy would have to be revalued accordingly (and conversely, if the wage fell, then the money would have to be devalued).  In the former case, one could, for instance, remove money from the economic community by raising the taxes of the rich.

Thus whole system would rest on the backs of the suffering poor on their treadmill, of course, just as our system today does, but at least it would be honest about it.  And we are talking about money, not the paradise of communism.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, May 25, 2011 at 6:44 am Link to this comment

The ‘standard man-hour dollar’ will never exist.  It can’t unless the to these questions can be generally agreed upon:
1. if 10 people do their particular ‘work’ for one day, they would receive the same compensation?
2. if 10 people in the exact same profession, say a shoemaker, work for one day and each produces a different number of shoes, do they get paid the based on the hours worked or the number of shoes produced?

And that will never happen, agreement that is. 

As a aside, a tremendous amount of human effort is expended in fooling the other members of society that ones particular profession has inordinately higher value, and this is why certain professions have incredibly disproportionate compensations, despite the fact that their underlying productivity is either negligible, or outright counterproductive.

Let’s start many millennium ago with the shaman.  And I give you the modern equivalent, the ‘media economist’, or the hedge fund manager, or the insurance broker.  Go ahead, name a few more…...

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By Anarcissie, May 25, 2011 at 5:54 am Link to this comment

I read about bitcoin about a year ago.  Sort of interesting.

In regard to using energy as a medium of exchange, I recall someone suggesting hydrogen several years ago, possibly in a science fiction story.

I don’t know what the disadvantages of energy-based currency might be, but I think we do want to link back to labor somehow.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, May 24, 2011 at 4:56 pm Link to this comment

I’m familiar with that bank and their success.  Still they have the long-term problems of trading in FED dollars.  I favor trading in joules.  Instead of Fort Knox, we establish a gigantic pile of coal in a tornado-free zone.  1 US joule is redeemable at any time in the future for coal, oil, electricity, whatever.  ‘Joule notes’ are printed as energy reserves are expanded.  They are withdrawn from circulation if energy reserves drain down. 

but, “..... with a runaway population of increasingly ignorant people, what’s the point?”

Here is something for Anarchisse and all….
http://www.bitcoin.org/
LETS meets Open Source Community.

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By MarthaA, May 24, 2011 at 4:38 pm Link to this comment

Social Capital and Socialized Capitalism is the solution to your
John Best
, May 23 at 7:08 am post on this thread.  Social
Capital and Socialized Capitalism has been being carried out very
well in the United States for the populace of North Dakota through
The Bank of North Dakota which is the only state-owned bank in
the United States, established by legislative action in
1919
, to promote agriculture, commerce and industry in North
Dakota. The Bank acts as a funding resource in partnership with
other financial institutions, economic development groups and
guaranty agencies. The Bank of North Dakota has four established
business areas: Student Loans, Lending Services, Treasury
Services and Banking Services.

http://www.banknd.nd.gov/

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By MarthaA, May 24, 2011 at 4:14 pm Link to this comment

Truthdig Web Master,

There is no error message, just a message to block entry of my
posts.  I have sent the page already, but if something happened
to it, the following message is what appears on my computer
screen, “Sorry, Page Not Found.  We dug around and couldn’t find
that page for you.  Continue to Truthdig Website.  Search
http://www.truthdig.com,” whenever I try to Preview or Post the
following paragraph on Truthdig’s forum:

*******

—————-—————-————-——-——————-—-———-—————-———-——————————————-—————-————————————-—-————-—-—-—-—————————-————-————-

*******

When this paragraph is included in a post, any post, anywhere on
the Truthdig forum, the whole post will not be admitted beyond
the before mentioned message, and when the paragraph is
submitted as a separate post, the post is rejected by way of the
same message.

I have tried both ways repeatedly to establish that this particular
paragraph was being used to prevent my posts from being
admitted due to this specific content, and they are.

If you will post this particular paragraph on the thread “This is
What Resistance Looks Like”, I will watch for it.

Please advise, I am concerned.

Sincerely,

Martha A. Miller

P.S., This is what appears on my screen to block the entry of my
post when anything I post with the above paragraph where the
lines are depicting where it was is submitted in any post; I emailed
the paragraph in question to the Web Master, but still can’t submit
the paragraph as a part of this post without the following answer
blocking my post:

Sorry, Page Not Found

We dug around, but couldn’t find that page for you.
Continue to Truthdig Website >>

Search http://www.truthdig.com:
     


Other pages that might be useful:

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******************************

That’s it, and entry is denied, all because of that one little paragraph.

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By Gary Mont, May 23, 2011 at 11:36 pm Link to this comment

Well, I’m up to at least twenty lines of fresh text now, possibly more, but I still can’t post anything that’s cut and pasted though… c’est la vie.

Major butt ache that.

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By Gary Mont, May 23, 2011 at 11:29 pm Link to this comment

Anarcissie:But at least when we talk about LETS we’re not whining about the rich and the Federal government.  So it’s definitely a start.

I’ll have to check this out. I wonder what specifically seems to be the problem. I know that there’s a number of “movements” afoot designed to stop the process, but there was apparently a good base of LETS time-dollar operations set up and running and showing the way.

Then again, all that’s needed is for someone in the organization top to initiate usury into the mix and the whole thing falls apart… We shall see. Thanks.

This is a test of posting more than 10 lines BTW. smile
20 lines in fact….
Preview worked fine…
Here goes Submit!

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, May 23, 2011 at 10:44 am Link to this comment

“......price controls assume that the value ratios between commodities always remain the same.”  Initially, yes, but underlying is the labor, the effort , the energy required to extract or make or process the commodities, so as the ‘price’ varies, (actually the market demand quantity you would buy for a fixed amount) resources are allocated to produce the commodity that is undervalues relative to the others.  If market barriers are too high, a black market pops up, same as now. 

But it actually solves the other problem you mentioned, valuing labor, at least in terms of fixed man-hours (of a ‘standard’ man) and energy. 

Give it some more thought, there is something to it.  I used to operate under the brainwashing that price controls should be dismissed out of hand, but I’m rethinking everything these days.

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By Anarcissie, May 23, 2011 at 10:00 am Link to this comment

Gary Mont—I looked up LETS in Google and found nothing actually going on in the U.S. except for scenes I already knew about.  For once I am ahead of Google: someone was trying to set up a LETS in Brooklyn a year or two ago.  I put myself on their mailing list, but subsequently heard nothing.  So apparently, as with most things, there is a great deal more to it than having a bright idea.  Ideas are cheap; attention is rare; execution is priceless.

But at least when we talk about LETS we’re not whining about the rich and the Federal government.  So it’s definitely a start.

John Best—price controls assume that the value ratios between commodities always remain the same.  I doubt if that is the case in real life.  When prices deviate greatly from values obvious problems arise.  If they are set too high, nobody buys; if they are set too low, then no one wants to do the work of providing a supply.  In the rare cases of actually free markets, prices contain important information about the difficulty of obtaining the goods to which they are attached; when this information is discarded, malfunctions tend to result.  However, prices can be jiggered a bit, especially in the case of magical and fundamentally low-utility* goods like gold.  In fact, up to a point most commodity prices are significantly influenced against the market by governments and large corporations.

I would like to see a currency based on labor, but labor comes in many different flavors, appearances, qualities and densities, and it’s not obvious to me how to set one up.

Sorry this isn’t more fanatically monomaniacal, but the subject is actually sort of tricky.

* Gold is useful aesthetically and industrially, but there are many substitutes for it.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, May 23, 2011 at 7:08 am Link to this comment

And consider something else (previously mentioned here) which we are conditioned through formal and informal means to think as crazy: price controls. 

If the commodity in question can meet standards of quality and utility which cannot be designed or legislated away, it doesn’t fix the value of the product, it fixes the value of the money. 

For instance, let’s say diesel fuel, of a certain specification of purity, were fixed at some price, and perhaps a particular mass of bread of a certain nutritional value and ‘wholesomeness’, and a KWh of electricity, and perhaps a certain grade of pork bellies meeting some USDA standard, and a number of other highly diverse, but necessary commodities, the effect would be to remove the ability of the FED to play with inflation.  How would money markets change? 

Such laws would need to be carved in stone, and long term investment would trend away from the variations of usury schemes toward productivity enhancing investment. 

Unfortunately, with a runaway population of increasingly ignorant people, what’s the point?

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, May 23, 2011 at 6:31 am Link to this comment

Gary stays? Excellent.

Consider ‘degrees of usury’.  Example: insurance, excpecially mandated…..same as mandated casino gambling?  Actuary tables vs. odds?

Consider the opposite of usury: legitimate productivity.

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By MarthaA, May 23, 2011 at 12:10 am Link to this comment

Are Right-Wing Corporate Welfare, War and
Usury Christians following the God of the Old
Testament Bible? 

Usury is not favored in the Old Testament; Jesus
fulfilled without one jot or tittle being changed. 
The following is what the God of the Bible has to
say about usury (interest):

Exodus 22:25 ** “If you lend money to any of My people
who are poor among you, you shall not be like a usurer to him;
you shall not charge him usury .”

Leviticus 25:36-37 ** “‘You take no usury from
him, or increase: but fear your God, that your brother may live with
you.  ‘You shall not lend him your money for usury, nor
lend him your food at a profit.”

Deuteronomy 23:19-20 ** ““You shall not lend upon
usury to your brother:  usury of money, usury
of food or usury of anything that is lent upon usury
Unto a stranger you may lend upon usury , but to your
brother you shall not lend upon usury , that the Lord
your God may bless you in all that you set your hand to in the land
whither you go to possess it.”

Nehemiah 5:7-10 ** “After serious thought, I rebuked
the nobles and rulers, and said to them, “Each of you is exacting
usury from his brother.” And I set a great assembly
against them.  And I said to them, “According to our ability we
have redeemed our Jewish brethren who were sold unto the
heathen; and will you even sell your brethren?  Or should they be
sold to us?” Then they were silenced and found nothing to
answer.  Then I said, “What you are doing is not good.  Should
you not walk in the fear of our God because of the reproach of the
heathen, our enemies?  “I also, with my brethren and my
servants, am lending them money and grain.  Please, let us stop
this usury!”

Psalms 15:1,5 ** ““Lord, who shall abide in Your
tabernacle? ..... He who does not put out his money to usury
, Nor takes reward against the innocent.  He that does these
things shall never be moved.”

Proverbs 28:8 ** “He that by usury and unjust
gain increases his substance, he shall gather it for him that will
pity the poor.”

Isaiah 24:1-2 ** “Behold, the Lord maketh the earth
empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and
scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.  And it shall be, as with
the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his
master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer,
so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as
with the taker of usury , so with the giver of usury
to him.”

Jeremiah 15:10 ** “Woe is me, my mother, That you have
borne me, A man of strife and a man of contention to the whole
earth!  I have neither lent on usury , nor have men lent
to me for usury .

Ezekiel 18:8 **  “He that has not given forth upon usury,
nor taken any increase, that has withdrawn his hand from iniquity,
has executed true judgment between man and man,”

Ezekiel 18:13 ** “He that has given forth upon usury,
and has taken increase:  Shall he then live?  He shall not live:  He
has done all these abominations: he shall surely die; his blood
shall be upon him.”

Ezekiel 18:17 **  “That has withdrawn his hand from the
poor, that has not received usury or increase, has executed My
judgments, hath walked in My statutes; he shall not die for the
iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.”

Ezekiel 22:12-13 **  ““In you they take bribes to shed
blood; you take usury and increase; and you have greedily gained
of your neighbors by extortion, and have forgotten Me,” says the
Lord God.  Behold, therefore I have smitten My hand at your
dishonest gain and at the bloodshed which has been in your
midst.”

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By Gary Mont, May 22, 2011 at 11:53 pm Link to this comment

Yes, if you print money that competes with fed cash, they will indeed send their minions out to rip off yer face and shove it in yer ear. However, electronic transactions between consenting adults is not printing money and not competing with the fed’s moneyopoly. If you look around, you’ll see there are already lots of these set up in small communitiies all over the USA, and thriving.

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By Cliff Carson, May 22, 2011 at 9:15 pm Link to this comment

A new currency that wouldn’t have to be sucked thru the International Monetary System owned by the World Bank which is owned by the 50 or so Richest and most Powerful families in the World?

The last Nation to try that was named -  Just a minute now - it was , it was -  Libya.

The person trying to get Africa to join him was Qaddafi.  Anybody know how that turned out?

You don’t piss off the man!

The International Money Cartel is behind the invasion of Libya.  Do some serious reading.  You’ll see.

By the way, they set our currency policy and supply thru the Federal Reserve, which is a private bank owned by - you guessed it - the same people who own the World Bank.

They would squash you like a bug if you were to become successful - see you would be intruding in on their racket.

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By Gary Mont, May 22, 2011 at 8:35 pm Link to this comment

Oops - last post crashed my connection!!!

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By Gary Mont, May 22, 2011 at 8:33 pm Link to this comment

By having a usury free community currency to pay all your daily bills with, it becomes a shitload easier to save up enough fed notes to pay your yearly billioniare-yacht taxes with. Can’t expect them billioniares to buy their own yachts you know….

Eventually, once such a system becomes universal - and it will - towns and cities can transfer accounts and payments and what have you electronically between them without ever spending a single fed buck.

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By Gary Mont, May 22, 2011 at 8:27 pm Link to this comment

Heck of a challenge - posting in 10 lines or less! smile

Look up LETS through Google. Its the best system developed to date and has none of the problems inherent in the others. Seems most community currencies want to retain usury for loans for some reason. LETS is an electronic usury free time dollar system that simply works.

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By Gary Mont, May 22, 2011 at 8:23 pm Link to this comment

Anarcissie:I don’t know exactly what the difficulties are, although I can imagine some; and if there weren’t any, then I would think more people would be doing it.

I’d like to suggest that what you said above is the primary reason why more people are not doing it - they assume it is difficult. However, it is being done all over the world today. Lots of examples already functioning - pick and choose.

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By Anarcissie, May 22, 2011 at 6:59 pm Link to this comment

Gary—I don’t know exactly what the difficulties are, although I can imagine some; and if there weren’t any, then I would think more people would be doing it.  It’s not as if no one ever thought of the idea before.

So I’m saying if a completely new kind of currency is too big a step, let’s promote at least financial and economic autonomy, and then move on from there.

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By MarthaA, May 22, 2011 at 6:30 pm Link to this comment

With regard to dialectic, here is a tutorial on dialectic:

****************Dialectic 101*********

Dialectic is a function of a causal relationship expressing the
beginning, the end, and all points in between, cause and
effect, x=x
.

To establish dialectic, a beginning is established, an end is
established, and all points in between are established.

With regard to simple forms of the use of dialectic for simple minds,
the Arabic Numbering System, 1 through 10, is a simple
form of dialectic where 0 is the beginning and 10 is the end,
together with all points in between and combinations thereof, for
example; 0=0, 1=1, 2=1+1, 3=2+1, 4=2+2, 5=3+2, 6=3+3,
7=5+2,  8=4+4, 9=5+4, 10=10 and etc.

Also, the English Lettering System, A through Z, is used in
the same way; in the Alphabet A is the beginning and Z is the end
and B through Y are all points in between A and Z; examples are
DOG=D+O+G, CAT=C+A+T, RUN DOG RUN = (R+U+N)+(D+O+G)+
(R+U+N), and so on and so forth.

[Paragraph edited by Truthdig Web Master:  To establish more
complex dialectic based upon language, the process is————-
——-, -————-,————,——-,—-————- -————————————-—-
————-—-—-—-—————————-————-————.]

[The blank lines in above paragraph represents the part of the
above paragraph that was edited out of this post by the Truthdig
Web Master; for this part of my post that the Truthdig Web Master
will not allow me to post, the full unedited content can only be
obtained by contacting the Truthdig Web Master and asking that I
be allowed to make my post unedited by the Web Master.]

The most horrific and memorable example of this process that I
know of is that which Hitler applied to the Jews in Mein Kampf to
accuse, condemn, denounce, and kill the Jews as related in Mein
Kampf, and as duplicated by the Conservative Right-Wing
EXTREMIST Republicans
from the time of Nixon to the present
to accuse, condemn, denounce, and put the Left and Liberals in
the cross hairs.

To feign a lack of understanding of this process, which has been
used as a weapon against the Left and Liberals for over 50 years
is shamefully disingenuous and those of the Right who have been a
party to its use are all too familiar with the process and should be
ashamed of themselves, but they are not.

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By Gary Mont, May 22, 2011 at 4:52 pm Link to this comment

Anarcissie: Apparently creating local currency isn’t so easy.

a. print nothing - make it 100% electronic transfer
b. no usury - make it a single transaction cost
c. base it on time - 1 hour = whatever dollar value you want.

Plumber wants teeth fixed, offers equivalent in plumbing value…

Where is the difficulty??
I’m getting good at these short messages!!! smile

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By Anarcissie, May 22, 2011 at 3:32 pm Link to this comment

Apparently creating local currency isn’t so easy.  A less difficult step might be for us to move our money to credit unions.  The new currency can come along later when people agree on what to base it on, how to represent it, store it, exchange it, etc. etc. etc.

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By Gary Mont, May 22, 2011 at 12:58 pm Link to this comment

Hopefully this will be small enough to post…

I think the best thing for America to do now is to, city by city, begin creating their own community currency based on time value and usury free, in order to pull away from the fed and its host of parasites.

Check out LETS in google

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, May 22, 2011 at 12:52 pm Link to this comment

Later Gary…..No sweat, it’s a small world.

By the way, I’ve been thinking about various parts of this post:
Gary Mont, May 21 at 3:21 pm Particularly “The right has conquered the media - the first thing you must capture on invading the enemy’s homeland is its media. They accomplished this simply by purchasing almost every media outlet in the USA and controlling any they could not buy through government licensing threats and corporate commercial threats.”

The form of ‘The Right’ is interesting, but I think ‘The Right’ and ‘The Left’ are complimentary tools of ‘The Aristocracy’, for lack of a better word.  The ‘Power Elite’ Hedges says. 

See you later, till then, Ciao baby.

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By MarthaA, May 22, 2011 at 11:31 am Link to this comment

Meet The Press, Washington Week, Face the Nation, and NOW are all the political shows and I watch them ALL every week, and all of these so called news programs present the news framed in the dialectic logic of the Right without the slightest hint that a logic that embraces a unity of balance that is inclusive of both Right-Wing and Left-Wing dialectic logic is necessary to logic having a “unity of balance,” and that dialectic logic that presents only a Right-Wing frame of dialectic is FALSE LOGIC.

What is False Dialectic Logic?

False Dialectic Logic is a “unity of balance” between two negatives, or a “unity of balance” between two positives.

False Logic is used to frame the Left with a “unity of balance” between two negatives.

False Logic is used to frame the Right with a “unity of balance” between two positives.

For people on this Truthdig Forum and on Meet The Press, Washington Week, Face the Nation, and NOW, together with all of those who watch these programs that present FALSE LOGIC as “fair and balanced logic” that is a “unity of balance” between positive and negative aspects of <b>both sides of the equal sign is what sophist propaganda is all about, both in the presentation and consumption, and if our nation, the United States, cannot extract our awareness from the grip of FALSE LOGIC that is presented in the media for our day to day consumption, our government and our people will continue to slide into Fascist domination and governance, as was the case in the Nazi Era of Germany, Italy, and Japan.

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By MarthaA, May 22, 2011 at 11:20 am Link to this comment

Meet The Press, Washington Week, Face the
Nation
, and NOW are all the political shows and I
watch them ALL every week, and all of these so called news
programs present the news framed in the dialectic logic of the
Right without the slightest hint that a logic that embraces a unity
of balance that is inclusive of both Right-Wing and Left-Wing
dialectic logic is necessary to logic having a “unity of balance,” and
that dialectic logic that presents only a Right-Wing frame of
dialectic is FALSE LOGIC.

<b>What is False Dialectic Logic?

<b>False Dialectic Logic is a “unity of balance” <b>between two
negatives
, or a “unity of balance” between two
positives
.

False Logic is used to frame the Left with a “unity of
balance” between two negatives.

False Logic is used to frame the Right with a “unity of
balance” between two positives.

For people on this Truthdig Forum and on Meet The Press,
Washington Week, Face the Nation, and NOW, together with all of
those who watch these programs that present FALSE LOGIC as
“fair and balanced logic” that is a “unity of balance” between
positive and negative aspects of <b>both sides of the equal
sign
is what sophist propaganda is all about, both in the
presentation and consumption, and if our nation, the United
States, cannot extract our awareness fromthe grip of FALSE LOGIC
that is presented in the media for our day to day consumption, our
government and our people will continue to slide into Fascist
domination and governance, as was the case in the Nazi Era of
Germany, Italy, and Japan.

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By Gary Mont, May 22, 2011 at 10:19 am Link to this comment

Well, I still can’t post anything longer than a few sentences and nothing at all that has been cut and pasted from another source, and TruthDig is not responding to emails….. so mayhaps I’ll just mosy along for a while and see how the rest of the alternate news media is fairing against the great beast of babylon and the merchant kings.

Later muchachos.

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By MarthaA, May 22, 2011 at 8:19 am Link to this comment

This morning, Sun. May 22, 2011, the dialectic of the Right on
‘Meet The Press’ did NOT present a “unity of balance.”

The choice for Americans is NOT just to cut social spending; the
choice is whether or not to balance spending, a unity
of balance,
  on war and corporate
welfare
with social spending.

In the current cycle of Right-Wing and Right-Wing Lite
“Backlash,”
a dialogue about a unity of balance
between the interests of the Military Industrial and
Commercial Alliance of the Republican Party and the Democratic
Party
is not going to happen. 

The only thing that the American Populace can expect
from the Military Industrial and Commercial Alliance between
the Republican Party and the Democratic Party
is “Backlash”
between the interests of the Military Industrial and
Commercial Alliance, the Republican Party and the Democratic
Party
with a false sense of interest and representation of the
political interests of the Left that is representative of
“Backlash.”

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By Gary Mont, May 21, 2011 at 3:33 pm Link to this comment

Ok - it appears as though anything that’s pasted in rather than typed in, gets sent to the Page Not Found page today, although the first post managed to get past thr restriction somehow.

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By Gary Mont, May 21, 2011 at 3:26 pm Link to this comment

Cripes this is a pain…

Part 3 second shot…
============================

The right simply bought the government outright. Any politicians that refused to tow the line were sent a package of polaroids of their children sleeping in their beds, with a masked man holding a knife over their faces.

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By Gary Mont, May 21, 2011 at 3:24 pm Link to this comment

Musta slipped that first half thru the NSA’s
guardwares….

Part B - third try

==================

The right has conquered the government itself - this was the easiest thing of all really as the right-owned Corporate America had been literally writing the scripts of POTUS speeches and actions since the 70s and if there is one thing about American politicians that was universally true, its that they live for graft and bribes.

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By Gary Mont, May 21, 2011 at 3:21 pm Link to this comment

Lets try this in two parts…

Part one.
============================

It looks to me as though everyone is still missing the point, entirely.

The people on the right are not merely attempting to remake America in a new image better suited to their belief systems. They have declared all out war and they have spent decades preparing for their all out assault on the America that was built by the left.

The left is still apparently under the impression that this is a political struggle and so they cling to the notions that they can straighten out their leaders with tough talk, and get back on the path, if they persevere long enough and air their grievances using the right words.

They cannot seem to understand that they have no representation - that there is no place to air their grievances any more - that the law no longer protects them, their families or their rights.

The right has conquered the media - the first thing you must capture on invading the enemy’s homeland is its media. They accomplished this simply by purchasing almost every media outlet in the USA and controlling any they could not buy through government licensing threats and corporate commercial threats.

The right has conquered the law - almost everything the right is doing today would have been illegal twenty years ago, but not today. They accomplished this by stealing the election for POTUS and having G. W. Bush’s Lawyer Army rewrite a number of important laws while the US public and the left were busy fighting an undeclared war with make-believe bogey men called Terrorists, manufactured through the false flag operation known globally as 9/11.

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By MarthaA, May 21, 2011 at 3:04 pm Link to this comment

With regard to x=x sublation of a “unity of balance of benefit and
responsibility” for the classes and cultures of the American
Aristocracy, American Middle Class, and American Populace, I
propose the following formulary:

Sigma B = [(Sigma Benefits & Responsibility of American
Aristocracy) + (Sigma Benefits & Responsibility of American Middle
Class) + (Sigma Benefits & Responsibility of American Populace)]

Sigma is the sum of or summation of.

From this basic formulary, as a society, the American People would
then have to determine and establish what the “ratios of benefit
and responsibility” should be individually, for Sigma Benefits &
Responsibility of the American Aristocracy, Sigma Benefits &
Responsibility of the American Middle Class, and Sigma Benefits &
Responsibility of the American Populace; and, when determined,
establish and institutionalize the ratios for use to establish
objective benefit and responsibility for each class and cultural
division of American Society as previously indicated based upon
the foregoing sublated formula.

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By Gary Mont, May 21, 2011 at 2:38 pm Link to this comment

Well, I can only post short messages today.
Not sure the maximum, but the post I wrote is apparently over today’s limit.

I will try again later.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, May 21, 2011 at 2:02 pm Link to this comment

Cliff Carson, May 20 at 2:54 pm
To supplement your points 7 & 8 below…..  somone made the point that 40% of federal debt is indeed financed domestically, by people who are enjoying the Bush tax cuts.  These are very wealthy families that can afford to buy T bills.  Quite odd that instead of the ultra wealthy paying their fair share that we’d allow them to further in-debt us. So, you might add a point: Let the so-called ‘Bush tax cuts’ expire immediately.  Since it’s set to happen, Congress will have to take action to keep them from expiring, and they’ll need ‘cover’ to do that.  We need to do what is possible to make people aware that they must keep their eye on the ball on this. 

Night-Gaunt, May 20 at 2:49
......“move to counter the mass attacks that have wrecked our economy and infrastructure” - This would be nice, but Gary pointed out once that it would eventually get infiltrated, and I’d guess he’s probably right.  That said, I think it would be advantageous to have the advantage of a think tank situation, private, with funding for advertising, etc.  It’s almost a counter-intelligence operation to continually ferret out the weasels.

Gary Mont, May 20 at 3:07 pm “His/Her posts can; from this point on, be utterly ignored”—consider it done.

And, Gary, I re-read this post: Gary Mont, May 14 at 3:21 pm Yes, it seems true and it is saddening that much of human nature works this way.  Cliff’s point “......our debt will surpass our production capacity….”  and the surrounding points are very essential ones that the ‘minions’, and the wealthy both understand.  The charade of ‘paper wealth’ must end.  Otherwise, the paper wealth is going to evaporate.  But back to your post, at some point, people are going to have to realize that at any given moment in time, there is a fixed amount of real production, of real wealth.  If it were spread out evenly,  we would all just have enough to piss away on something that wouldn’t produce an ongoing improvement in serious production.  Per capita GDP was $47,400 in 2010.  If we use the same wealth distribution we have, the upper income brackets are free to invest, but what fraction gets invested in serious production of energy technologies, etc?  If the money all gets sent to Wall St. to be invested offshore, domestic GDP will start to slide.  I’m also poking around to see what makes up GDP.  How much is wasted effort, never to produce a gain?  For instance, a small fraction is casino gambling.  IT just moves the money around and money wears out.  it needs to be invested in serious activities, agriculture, mining, ‘serious’ manufacturing, etc.  What is ‘serious’?  Energy generation equipment is serious, with a continuum ending probably in consumable entertainment items…...firecrackers? 

In a nutshell:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0gNga6v9EY
And it should be financed with half tax revenue, half private investment.  If some rich folk want to leave the country over it, I say, “don’t let the door hit you on the ass on your way out”.  To those who stay?  Those are good people.  We’ve traditionally, through PUC’s, guaranteed a fixed rate of return for investments in serious energy infrastructure.

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By MarthaA, May 21, 2011 at 1:25 pm Link to this comment

Cliff Carson your May 21 at 12:19 pm post of your past
writings in support of Liberal benefit is meaningless, if what you say
is pursued to the exclusion of a “unity of balance and benefit that is
inclusive of the American Populace, the 70% Majority Common
Population,” and is nothing more than “tropes and sophism” in
support of the American Aristocracy and Professional Middle Class;
sophism and tropes give the illusion of benefit to the American
Populace, but a “unity of benefit and balance” requires the sublated
unity of x=x, which is objectively defined benefit.

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By Cliff Carson, May 21, 2011 at 12:19 pm Link to this comment

In my comment of May 20 I pulled an excerpt from something I wrote over a year ago, and in there I found this prediction: “So this country could go into insolvency sometime before Labor Day of 2011”.

So here’s another excerpt from one I wrote in January 2010.  This is what Resistance Looks Like and the following is why I would never be a Republican ( Not a Democrat either).

“And after 9/11 Afghanistan and Iraq were invaded - to protect us said Bush -  But the Taliban had offered up Bin Laden originally and Saddam had offered to go into exile to avoid an invasion of Iraq, however those offerings were ignored, and the result has been over 5000 of our soldiers killed, over 30,000 permanently wounded, two nations destroyed, a million people killed, over 5 million people displaced, and American citizens have lost freedoms and liberties by the bucket full -again to protect us of course - and after the demonization of Islam and Arabs and of all things the demonization of a Dictator that the United States had installed, we should all be reminded of George Orwell’s observation: “Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac.”  or maybe we should recall a C. S. Lewis famous quote:  “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive”.  The victims in these wars from the just passed decade include the United States citizen, but the real enemy of the decade seems somewhat more elusive.  Should the enemy include the Military Industrial Complex?
I am inclined to believe that those wars of the last decade were conducted for three reasons:
To profit the Military Industrial Complex
To get bases in the Middle East and provide business opportunities for American Business Corporations
To sate the ego of our Modern Day Julius Caesar and build the Empire - Pax Romana
Well we have awakened to our Country this morning of January 1, 2010 to find that America is no longer the Light of the World, is not the protector of the World’s oppressed, but has become an oppressor itself.  Our Government no longer is by and for the people.  The new mantra seems to be that America exists as the instrument of profit for the Special Interests, The Elite, The Rich and Powerful, The Corrupt.
This new decade does not need to end this way however.  It is within us to change.  We will not change America for the better by exercising Party Loyalty.  This has been the recipe for disaster.  Our hope should be turned toward being American first.  A return to Moral and ethical Government.  That return is packaged around returning to the instrument provided us by our founding fathers - the Constitution.
To be a moral Nation, we must once again become a moral people and lay aside our acceptance of torture, corruption, unethical behavior, and the Law of Might makes Right.  We are better than that.  We need to force our Government to be better than that.
We need to get busy now, we only have ten years beginning right now to avoid this same report in 2020”.

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By MarthaA, May 21, 2011 at 11:22 am Link to this comment

It is very important that those who read this thread know that the
billionaire corporate media mogul, Rupert Murdoch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert_Murdoch and the billionaire
corporate manufacturing industry moguls, Charles and David Koch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch_Industries have paid Right-Wing
trolls posing as liberals to cover all of the internet’s liberal blogs; it
appears to me that some of these people on this blog that I am
dealing with are of that status, and I strongly suspect, John Best
and Gary Mont along with Cliff Carson, who has presented a liberal
platform, but could easily present that liberal platform, as it is his
job to present himself as a liberal.  Here is a thread on another
forum attesting to the Right-Wing infiltration of the liberal blogs
posing as liberals:

Right-Wing Sock Puppets Pretending to be Liberals:
http://www.readersupportednews.org/pm-section/78-78/5872-right-wing-sock-puppets-pretending-to-be-liberals-assault-progressive-websites

I will dialog with any of them, as long as they will dialog, but their
presentation of trying to help the liberals is false, when in fact
they are following Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST dialectic.

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By MarthaA, May 20, 2011 at 3:29 pm Link to this comment

“I wrote this last year, does this sound like a Republican?”
Cliff Carson, May 20 at 2:54 pm

Do you suppose that the concerns addressed in your post are
going to be resolved by those who do not know any different than
to frame their concerns in the dialectic of those whose policies
they oppose?

The Left needs less simpletons that have difficulty with
understanding basic dialectic of D+O+G=Dog, that frame their
resistance in the dialectic of those who they are resisting, and are
capable of framing their resistance in the dialectic of the Left,
rather than the Right.

The problem for the Left is the same as with Night-Gaunt.

The Left needs brighter candles, and with understanding being
the light of the candle, the Left needs candles that produce the
light of dialectical understanding of the Left, rather than the Right.

If this is too difficult for you to understand, you might spend a little
more time with the basic dialectic of D+O+G=Dog, seriously.

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By Night-Gaunt, May 20, 2011 at 3:10 pm Link to this comment

Very good suggestions Cliff Carson & Gary Mont, I concur.

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By Gary Mont, May 20, 2011 at 3:07 pm Link to this comment

I note she uses the favorite tactic of the right - accuse your opponent of possessing your side’s worst traits and of perpetrating your side’s worst crimes - a school yard trick which prevents the accused from correctly acusing the criminal of those same things, without looking like a copy-cat.

Methinks we may have unmasked a real Tea Bagger…

Matters little.

What is important is that s/he has named him/herself as the tar baby, and is now nothing more than a steady background noise. Hopefully, less steady, as time passes…

His/Her posts can; from this point on, be utterly ignored without missing any information whatsoever, or read for amusement, dependant on one’s temperament.

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By MarthaA, May 20, 2011 at 2:59 pm Link to this comment

We understand Night-Gaunt that you are not the brightest
candle in the church.

BTW, Understanding is the light of the candle.

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By Cliff Carson, May 20, 2011 at 2:54 pm Link to this comment

X=X

I wrote this last year, does this sound like a Republican?

America’s Most Disastrous Decade, will it get worse in the coming Decade?

As we escape into the second decade of this current Century, our greatest hope is that 2011 will be the beginning of a return to our Constitutional form of Government and a turnaround of our economic disaster.  I started with an Administration led by a President who stated that the Constitution was nothing but a God Dammed piece of paper.  That President,  George Bush,  launched an eight year period of devastation on the American way of life.
Bush brought such misery and shame to the American people that after six years the political power moved in the 2006 election to put a halt to the direction in which Bush had led us, and the 2008 election brought in a charismatic person promising to rebuke the excesses of the first eight years and return America to a path of moral and ethical Government and financial security.  But Barak Obama has turned out to be a colossal disappointment. 
As I write this I am watching the real time U S Debt Clock and I notice that the debt is increasing at the rate of $3.2 million each and every minute.  Unfortunately, what we as a nation produce, is increasing only about $0.3 million per minute.  The current difference between what we owe, $13.9 Trillion, and what we are producing $14.7 Trillion comes to about $800 Billion.  Eight hundred Billion is 800,000 million so if we continue the same rate of disparity, our debt will surpass our production capacity in 275,862 minutes or sometime in late June or early July of 2011.  In your life and mine , when our increasing debt is greater than our earning power to repay, we are insolvent, or to use the more common term - bankrupt.  So this country could go into insolvency sometime before Labor Day of 2011.
We need to do something to stop the avalanche and we need to do it immediately!
This is not the time to place blame, we are facing a National Emergency and it needs to be fixed by American people, not by any Political Party.  So how can we save real money?
1.  Why not immediately stop the Wars and bring the soldiers home? 
2.  Why not close all Military Bases around the world that are not absolutely essential?
3.  Why not cut defense spending by 50%?  We are spending about $692 Billion per year
4.  Why not immediately stop all Foreign Aid?
5.  Why not put people back to work?  Currently 26,200,400 people are unemployed.  An unemployed person not only doesn’t pay any taxes, they also draw from the treasury.  44,572,367 draw food stamps.
6.  Why not immediately ban all imports not essential?  $623,904,000 Trade Deficit.  What do we get from foreign countries that we couldn’t produce here at home?
7.  Why not pass a National Financial Law?  A law is needed to regulate the flow of money out of the United States.  It needs to be taxed.  Corporations and Wealthy Individuals can make off shore investments as a means of evading U S Income taxes.
8.  Why not immediately ban all Government Foreign borrowing ?  Currently borrowing $800,000 per minute.  We currently owe $4.4 Trillion to Foreign Countries.
9.  Why not impose price controls on essential goods, services, products?  This can be good or bad. 
10.  Why not immediately stop exportation of American Jobs?  Usually the claim is that we are sending menial jobs overseas, but this is not true.  Our Corporations have taken our bailouts and yes they are now hiring - but the hiring is overwhelming overseas - not here in the US.
Notice I didn’t mention Social Security, Medicare, or Welfare.  There is a reason for that.  Social Security and Medicare has been taken from our income as a bargain to the people that the money would be used for the benefit of the people - this has proven to be untrue.  The excess collected yearly has disappeared.  Trillions of Dollars have been stolen from these taxpayers by our Government.  We need to resist.

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By Night-Gaunt, May 20, 2011 at 2:49 pm Link to this comment

You will notice that the subject is rigid and inflexible in how she communicates. She is indignant at questions that would cause her to deviate from her proscribed means of communication. You will also note a high level of paranoia. I wish I knew what that designates at this juncture. But if you cross her she will attack you. Even if you weren’t doing anything consciously to anger her.

We need to stop speaking about symbolism and dialectics and move toward some kind of organization(s) or join them together and move to counter the mass attacks that have wrecked our economy and infrastructure. I don’t see that as mentally challenged or wrong headed.

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By MarthaA, May 20, 2011 at 2:46 pm Link to this comment

“I have no desire to view anything written using your unity of
balance process any longer,” —Gary Mont, May 20 at 1:51
pm

Those are mighty strong words for a sophist idealog who supports
false logic; more of an admission than anything else, when you
say that you are not interested in “unity of balance” with regard to
dialogue; it is part and parcel to you saying outright that you are a
sophist propagandist and proud of the fact that you are a sophist
propagandist, much the same as the “fair and balanced” credo of
the Fox News Network.

As I have said before, you should be ashamed of yourself, even
the unbalanced Fox News Network lays claim to a “unity of balance.”

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By MarthaA, May 20, 2011 at 1:53 pm Link to this comment

I have a strong suspicion that some of you new people on this thread fall into the following category of sock puppets for the Right that have been turned loose on the internet by Murdoch and Koch: 

http://www.readersupportednews.org/pm-section/78-78/5872-right-wing-sock-puppets-pretending-to-be-liberals-assault-progressive-websites

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By Gary Mont, May 20, 2011 at 1:51 pm Link to this comment

Dear MartaA/B,

So, it appears that even your claim of cencorship was a ruse…

I have been asking you to offer a simple example of what - (even just the first few sentences of) - a social contract with America might look like rendered via the method you have been preaching for weeks now.

You have found numerous ways and means to avoid doing so and so I retract my request, offically, as of now.

I have no desire to view anything written using your unity of balance process any longer, as I’m now certain you are incapable of providing such anyway.

Have a nice life.

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By Cliff Carson, May 20, 2011 at 1:23 pm Link to this comment

Yes Gary Mont

As Philosophy goes it belongs to the domain of those who like to ask the absurd then try to prove the absurd.  I wrote a paper a couple of years ago about my impressions on some of Paul Churchland’s ideas, all of course presented as serious thought about Functionalism and Materialism.

I think the best book I ever read about Philosophy was a book entitled “What is not Philosophy”.

Maybe I shouldn’t have mentioned I have read some Philosophy because I sure don’t want to get the Tar Baby stuck to me so let me apologize for mentioning the “P” word before attacks come.

I am really concerned about the direction of our country.

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By MarthaA, May 20, 2011 at 1:12 pm Link to this comment

“If you simply post another D+O+G=DOG x=x lesson like I found at
the TD addie you posted, I will never speak to you again in this
forum, promise.” —Gary Mont, May 20 at 12:23 pm

You people are the ones harping on a social contract and I will
that bit of perverted logic and sophism up to you.

With regard to D+O+G=Dog, you people were making claims of
being mentally challenged with regard to understanding and
D+O+G=Dog was my way of putting dialectic on a level comparable
to your professed level of understanding, Dialectic 101.

Do you need a further tutorial with regard to more complex
dialectic?

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By Gary Mont, May 20, 2011 at 1:06 pm Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt:Yes it would be. She and her counterpart are like the fabled “Tar Baby” of the Uncle Remus stories.

She or he has definitely tied up the forum dialogue with a string of posts that have added absolutely nothing for days - a perfect tar baby in fact.

On the other hand, as John Best has mentioned a time or two, it is excellent practice for spotting future bunkers, trolls and shills as they appear.

This is a good thing in that the closer one gets to a solution the greater becomes the threat to the Powers that B and thus the greater the presence and quality of the paid interference injected into the stream.

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By Gary Mont, May 20, 2011 at 12:56 pm Link to this comment

Cliff Carson:

1)  An excuse   -  Used through ignorance or malfeasance

2)  A reason   -  The Truth

================

Indeed.

I’m beginning to think that philosophy is basically a method of determining what you already believe, through what appears to be a scientific process and thus gaining some respectability for what would otherwise be considered a mere guess, or be seen as the result of a preconceived belief system.

This was my first dip into the pool of philosophy and I must say, I am not at all impressed, nor will I be continuing my education in that direction.

While I fully agree with MarthaA’s statement to the effect: the lower classes have been diseducated in order to deprive them of the ability to communicate effectively and enable the better educated to easily deceive them… I can see no aid arriving from philosophy.

Education is needed indeed, but what is needed beyond all else is a return to the value of honesty. As long as it is just fine to be a lying asshole as long as it gets you rich, nothing will change.

First and foremost, in a social contract, must be the simple statement that deception among elected officials is equal to treason - because it is - and similarily punishable, although a first offense should normally only net you banishment from all political occupations throughout the nation, forever.

To begin with, the inability of elected politicians to use bullshit, rhetoric and sophisticated verbal deceptions while in office, will overnight, strip the offices of power of all the sons and daughters of the extremely wealthy and keep most silver tongued lying bastards from considering public office thereafter.

There was a simple technology developed by the US Military a few years ago - which was of course denied vehemently when the news leaked - that could analyse a speaker, even on film, video or TV and tell you within a 85-95% certainty whether the person was lying. Such technology should be refined and used continuously on all public officials’ statements, simply because they are public officials.

Without a return to honesty, everything else will simply fail, as it always has before.

In my opinion only of course.

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By Night-Gaunt, May 20, 2011 at 12:27 pm Link to this comment

Yes it would be. She and her counterpart are like the fabled “Tar Baby” of the Uncle Remus stories.

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By Gary Mont, May 20, 2011 at 12:23 pm Link to this comment

To MarthaB,

Addendum:

I did not ask you to post an exercise in philosophy 101, or a dissertation on the proper construction of Hegelian dialectic for kindergarten kids.

I asked for an example of how a social contract might look - in english - if written using the unity of balance techniques you keep preaching.

If you simply post another D+O+G=DOG x=x lesson like I found at the TD addie you posted, I will never speak to you again in this forum, promise.

That could be a good thing, yes!

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By Gary Mont, May 20, 2011 at 12:05 pm Link to this comment

Damn. Well I tried, but it appears that MA/B has discovered the ecstacy of being the center of attention and is simply unwilling to let it go.

To: Martha(A/B)

As much as I would like to simply forget you exist, please realize that everyone has had numerous trials and tribulations posting on TruthDig over the last few weeks, due; they say, to switching servers.

Considering the utter crap they allow to be posted by the likes of OzzieMickey and Laffable and Lewd Heifer, I am absolutely certain your problems posting will resolve themselves soon and have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with cencorship.

One day, I could only post a message of 9 lines or less - a tenth line sent me to the Error On Page page, and the contents of the edit box were gone on my return. Other days, I can post nothing at all as even Previewing the text opened the Page Not Found page.

On a number of occasions, my browser could not even find TruthDig and for example today, it took half a minute or more to find the site and another half minute to load the page. I ecxpected a time-out any second…

On two occasions I got the page loaded, but could not interact with anything on the page and had to close the browser to leave the site.

As much as I doubt that anything you can post at this point will do anything but get you well-earned ridicule and well-deserved grief from other posters, please retry your posting at a later date, or a different time of day.

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By MarthaA, May 20, 2011 at 10:51 am Link to this comment

John Best, Gary Mont, Cliff Carson, Night-Gaunt and all the rest of
the Right-Wing EXTREMIST Republican ilk on Truthdig Forum,

Truthdig, digging for the truth, is a lie if digging for the truth is not
allowed in the understanding and application of sophism and
dialectic.

I am definitely not a Right-Winger, and I am concerned because
the Right has used sophism and dialectic for mind control of the
American Populace without challenge, from the time of Nixon to the
present, and I am disappointed that Truthdig Forum has joined the
efforts of the Right in support of unchallenged Right-Wing Mind
Control of the American Populace by way of sophism and dialectic,
by not allowing free and open discussion and dialogue concerning
the nature and use of sophism and dialectic on the Truthdig Forum.

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By MarthaA, May 20, 2011 at 10:12 am Link to this comment

I was asked by John Best, Gary Mont, Cliff Carson and Night-Gaunt
on the Truthdig Forum to explain and demonstrate how dialectic is
used in dialogue to present false certainty as logical truth.

To this end I attempted to publish Dialectic 101 as a response to
explain how both simple, intermediate, and complex dialectic is
constructed and the basic structure of dialectic.

This effort was suppressed by the Truthdig Forum without
explanation, and I have therefore been unable to respond to the
inquiry made of me concerning the patterns of construction of
simple, intermediate, and more complex dialectic on the ‘This is
What Resistance Looks Like’ thread of Truthdig’s Forum.

I am disappointed that the Truthdig Forum has chosen to suppress
dialogue about the nature and structure of dialectic as a means of
mind control used to shape, form, and maintain public opinion.

Apparently it is alright to get lost in the labyrinth in the Truthdig
Forum, but it is not alright to talk about how to construct the
labyrinth and how to get through the labyrinth.

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By Cliff Carson, May 20, 2011 at 9:45 am Link to this comment

Thanks Gary Mont for putting this long useless journey into Hegelian Philosophy to bed.  While it is true that many have suffered through his distorted ideas, nothing , I repeat nothing, was a result of his dissertations.
Some might disagree with me but the Philosophy of Cliff Carson is that there are two explanations for outcomes:
1)  An excuse   -  Used through ignorance or malfeasance
2)  A reason     -  The Truth
They are seldom the same.  Those who used Hegelian Philosophy as an excuse for the cause of Fascism must have Progeny working this thread.
Maybe some Sanity can return.  Thank you for consigning this to the Grave.  Maybe we will now have Unity- Sorry, I just couldn’t help it.

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By Gary Mont, May 20, 2011 at 9:18 am Link to this comment

Last words.

As a final note on the subject of dialectics, a closer examination shows that the user of Hegelian Dialectic process must already have his final result in mind.

Sublating a subject through the three stage method of abstract, negative, concrete, one first lays out the subject in a manner called the “abstract”, that will allow you create later its anti-thesis.

This is the first X, the abstract.

Then one places the anti-thesis or opposite of the abstract on the other side of the equal sign in the formulae, cancelling the two out.

This is the second X, the negative. This is X=X.

Which, in and of itself is a lie as X1 does not equal X2 because X2 is the opposite of X1. Opposites cannot be equals.

This process allows the mind of the believer to conjure the synthesis or “concrete” result from the sublation of the abstract and the negative.

X=X=X, since all three are nothing more than the original “subject”.

Since all of this takes place in the mind of the dialectic user, who chooses the description of the abstract, the negative and finally their concrete result, it is most obvious that the concrete was derived long before the process began and that the abstract was designed only to insure that the magical production of the concrete appeared to be legitimate.

In other words, this process is simply a method by which one may come to one’s previously derived conclusion by an apparently scientific method.

From Wiki…

In chapter 12 of volume 2 of The Open Society and Its Enemies (1944; 5th rev. ed., 1966) Popper unleashed a famous attack on Hegelian dialectics, in which he held Hegel’s thought (unjustly, in the view of some philosophers, such as Walter Kaufmann,[60]) was to some degree responsible for facilitating the rise of fascism in Europe by encouraging and justifying irrationalism. In section 17 of his 1961 “addenda” to The Open Society, entitled “Facts, Standards, and Truth: A Further Criticism of Relativism,” Popper refused to moderate his criticism of the Hegelian dialectic, arguing that it “played a major role in the downfall of the liberal movement in Germany,. . . by contributing to historicism and to an identification of might and right, encouraged totalitarian modes of thought.  . . . [and] undermined and eventually lowered the traditional standards of intellectual responsibility and honesty”.

There is indeed a very good chance that MarthaA/B is a fascist in lefty clothing, doing his level best to sell the poison that has caused the damage, as the cure.

Attempting to create a solution to a real-life problem by using a philosophy formulae designed simply to allow the user to pseudo-scientifically come to the conclusion he has already chosen, is an exercise in self delusion and utterly doomed to failure.

In my opinion only of course.

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By Cliff Carson, May 20, 2011 at 8:10 am Link to this comment

Tom Best

“We who are working are holding up our end of the social contract.”

Absolutely!

And it is why I always ” “.  Those of us who uphold our Social Contract and I get tired of those who speak of “Entitlements” as if they were bad things.  You are always entitled to things you earn.

Those of us who fulfilled our duty and compassion to our future and our brother who is in need, are living the Social Contract. 

I have said I am my brother’s keeper in his time of need.  I think I live that life.  Plato, a devout believer in re-incarnation, once wrote that of the future levels of re-incarnated lives, the ultimate “good” level of life would be Politician.

This thought assumed that the Politician would live the Social Contract.  Unfortunately he overestimated the goodness of those holding power.  He also believed in the ultimate goodness of the power of the State.  He claimed it was OK to lie to the people for the good of the State.  The assumption must have been that those Politicians who comprise the leaders of the State would be moral and ethical guardians of his Ideal - the Social Contract.

Finally why I was so dismissive of Hegel, Sublation, and X=X, I have always thought you could sum up his philosophy with two words:  Things Change.  Something any average person could observe but in less than a million words or so.  However I do like Philosophy in general.  But I don’t have any heroes to grovel before.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, May 20, 2011 at 7:38 am Link to this comment

First, Ardee, your avatar is not showing up.  While you’re investigating, let’s have a new picture of the Road King.  As to the purpose of these turds like MarthX, yest, they’re slightly disruptive, but the exercise of recognizing their tactics is good.  I try to get back on point, that’s what annoys them.  We need to learn their tactics. 

Cliff Carson, May 20 at 4:20 Great post.  We could discuss ‘Get people back to work’, the details are significant, but the point I’d like to repeat is in your second paragraph, restated here:

“These three “Entitlements” are completely and totally paid for by Social Security and Medicare paycheck deductions from wage earners and the premiums paid for Medicare by the people who are on Medicare.  Therefore these three Programs have not contributed one single penny to the debt or deficit.  The fact is that forever they have been paying in more to the U S Treasury every year than the Treasury has been paying out for the three.”

My point would be that we should just look at the big picture here, what are we trying to accomplish?  Us working people are merely, through the treasury, re-distributing our wealth to the old, the sick, the very young and the vulnerable.  We who are working are holding up our end of the social contract. 

We are just exercising a religion independent set of morals which says we take responsibility for our fellow countrymen.  Ironically, this is far more Christian than the ‘every man for himself/buyer beware’ perversion of Christianity that the extreme right promotes. 

And I certainly get your emphasis on “entitlements”, as if it’s a bad thing.  Damn right it’s an entitlement.  Old folks paid in and helped build the countries infrastructure, they damn well are entitled to their full share of social security and medicare at least.  Similarly, we take it upon ourselves to ‘owe’ kids an education which will ensure that they have the productivity and global competitiveness to have the surpluses available for us when we have paid our due. 

So, that issue of the productivity of the economy is hanging out there.  You can’t have a contract without the ‘goods’, i.e. the production of real infrastructure, energy, shelter, foods, etc., but that’s for another discussion. 

For now, we need to focus on letting tax breaks for the wealthy expire, and saying hands off social security, medicare, medicaide, and education, in other words, don’t even think about touching the core of our modern implementation of the social contract.

And another thing, people must realize that the money the wealthy have collected has been made because of infrastructure (physical and education) which was paid for by previous generations.  The wealthy are entitled to their ‘earnings’, but some large fraction needs returned to the general fund for re-investment in and by the People.  Those are the people who are too hubris-tic and stupid to realize they owe large parts of their wealth to the sacrifice of previous generations.

And just as the ‘undeserving wealthy’ can pee away capitol, so can those poor who are truly able to contribute, but refuse.  The ‘social contract’ reinforces these common sense obligations of all citizens: work productively and take some pride in doing your part to take care of your countrymen, and don’t be greedy.    Something like that.

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