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Loss of Rainforests Is Double Whammy Threat to Climate






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The Sky Really Is Falling

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Posted on May 30, 2011
AP / Lori Mehmen

Global climate change has made for freak storms and more intense weather. Here, a tornado touches down in Iowa in 2008.

By Chris Hedges

The rapid and terrifying acceleration of global warming, which is disfiguring the ecosystem at a swifter pace than even the gloomiest scientific studies predicted a few years ago, has been confronted by the power elite with two kinds of self-delusion. There are those, many of whom hold elected office, who dismiss the science and empirical evidence as false. There are others who accept the science surrounding global warming but insist that the human species can adapt. Our only salvation—the rapid dismantling of the fossil fuel industry—is ignored by both groups. And we will be led, unless we build popular resistance movements and carry out sustained acts of civil disobedience, toward collective self-annihilation by dimwitted pied pipers and fools.

Those who concede that the planet is warming but insist we can learn to live with it are perhaps more dangerous than the buffoons who decide to shut their eyes. It is horrifying enough that the House of Representatives voted 240-184 this spring to defeat a resolution that said that “climate change is occurring, is caused largely by human activities, and poses significant risks for public health and welfare.” But it is not much of an alternative to trust those who insist we can cope with the effects while continuing to burn fossil fuels.

Horticulturalists are busy planting swamp oaks and sweet gum trees all over Chicago to prepare for weather that will soon resemble that of Baton Rouge. That would be fine if there was a limit to global warming in sight. But without plans to rapidly dismantle the fossil fuel industry, something no one in our corporate state is contemplating, the heat waves of Baton Rouge will be a starting point for a descent that will ultimately make cities like Chicago unlivable. The false promise of human adaptability to global warming is peddled by the polluters’ major front group, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, which informed the Environmental Protection Agency that “populations can acclimatize to warmer climates via a range of behavioral, physiological, and technological adaptations.” This bizarre theory of adaptability has been embraced by the Obama administration as it prepares to exploit the natural resources in the Arctic. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton announced recently that melting of sea ice “will result in more shipping, fishing and tourism, and the possibility to develop newly accessible oil and gas reserves.” Now that’s something to look forward to.

“It is good that at least those guys are taking it seriously, far more seriously than the federal government is taking it,” said the author and environmental activist Bill McKibben of the efforts in cities such as Chicago to begin to adapt to warmer temperatures. “At least they understand that they have some kind of problem coming at them. But they are working off the science of five or six years ago, which is still kind of the official science that the International Climate Change negotiations are working off of. They haven’t begun to internalize the idea that the science has shifted sharply. We are no longer talking about a long, slow, gradual, linear warming, but something that is coming much more quickly and violently. Seven or eight years ago it made sense to talk about putting permeable concrete on the streets. Now what we are coming to realize is that the most important adaptation we can do is to stop putting carbon in the atmosphere. If we don’t, we are going to produce temperature rises so high that there is no adapting to them.”

The Earth has already begun to react to our hubris. Freak weather unleashed deadly tornados in Joplin, Mo., and Tuscaloosa, Ala. It has triggered wildfires that have engulfed large tracts in California, Oklahoma, New Mexico and Texas. It has brought severe droughts to the Southwest, parts of China and the Amazon. It has caused massive flooding along the Mississippi as well as in Australia, New Zealand, China and Pakistan. It is killing off the fish stocks in the oceans and obliterating the polar ice caps. Steadily rising sea levels will eventually submerge coastal cities, islands and some countries. These disturbing weather patterns presage a world where it will be harder and harder to sustain human life. Massive human migrations, which have already begun, will create chaos and violence. India is building a 4,000-kilometer fence along its border with Bangladesh to, in part, hold back the refugees who will flee if Bangladesh is submerged. There are mounting food shortages and sharp price increases in basic staples such as wheat as weather patterns disrupt crop production. The failed grain harvests in Russia, China and Australia, along with the death of the winter wheat crop in Texas, have, as McKibben points out, been exacerbated by the inability of Midwestern farmers to plant corn in water-logged fields. These portents of an angry Gaia are nothing compared to what will follow if we do not swiftly act.

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“We are going to have to adapt a good deal,” said McKibben, with whom I spoke by phone from his home in Vermont. “It is going to be a century that calls for being resilient and durable. Most of that adaptation is going to take the form of economies getting smaller and lower to the ground, local food, local energy, things like that. But that alone won’t do it, because the scale of change we are now talking about is so great that no one can adapt to it. Temperatures have gone up one degree so far and that has been enough to melt the Arctic. If we let it go up three or four degrees, the rule of thumb the agronomists go by is every degree Celsius of temperature rise represents about a 10 percent reduction in grain yields. If we let it go up three or four degrees we are really not talking about a planet that can support a civilization anything like the one we’ve got.


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Gary Mont's avatar

By Gary Mont, August 5, 2011 at 4:16 am Link to this comment

Ted Swart:I am puzzled as to why you would disagree with me.

I wasn’t disagreeing with you. For the record, I agree with your comment completely. Sorry it sounded that way. I was comparing rational thought sarcastically to rationalization - an attempt at humor that failed.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, August 4, 2011 at 2:05 pm Link to this comment

Well, if chicken coop density were the only aspect to this plate of spaghetti.  It’s not that the pendulum swung too far and that the problem could be solved by making the cages a little bigger.

The underlying economics of farming itself is only a tiny fraction of the problem.  The huge amounts of food we eat per-capita is a small, small part.  The expanding population, as individuals and as a group, is only a part of it.  The dependency of agri-business with the petro-chemical industry is a bit.  How it all gets subsidized is a part.  The efficiencies of distribution, spoilage losses, etc, are tiny tiny parts.  There are other parts, too numerous for the forum.

So what’s the big picture? Damn if I know.  I’ll take a stab at it.  I’d say human nature is such that we can’t help ourselves, from big-shot CEO down to trailer trash, we look to our own short term gratification, be it money or food, or booze, adrenalin rushes, sex, whatever.  We don’t regulate ourselves, because if we don’t do or take advantage of such-and-such opportunity to ‘better our position’, somebody else will. 

And this is the basis for the ‘Free marketeers’ philosophy…......everybody worry about yourself, and somehow the magical hand of the market will take care of everything.  What complete BS.

We as a species need uncorrupted regulation of government or we are going to die in diseases of our creation. 

Money is a big facilitator of it.  The root of all evil?  Once we get some of it, we get obsessed with the sense of security and power it provides, and it does provide security and power, if it’s not so concentrated in the hands of a few bad apples who use it to make the rest of us helpless cattle to be dominated.  Even millionaires are relegated to subservience and eventually will be consumed by the pestilence which follows the concentration of wealth.

As I’ve said before, all of humanity is in a big dark room and we all have loaded guns…..good luck convincing them all to put them down at once.

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By Cliff Carson, August 4, 2011 at 1:32 pm Link to this comment

The thread seems to have drifted to a very interesting dual discussion - at least in my view.

1.  The effects of promiscuous use of antibiotics

2.  The difference between rationalization and rational thinking.

That means to me there are some deep thinkers on here.

In the close quartered “hen” and turkey houses, it should be obvious to the rational thinker that disease would be harder to control and in the long run the “medicines” used in these confined quarters would be weakened by prolonged use since the “germs” are known to be prolific adapters.

But the Turkey farmer rationalizes that the business must be profitable and the confinement helps increase that bottom line.  Same thing for other types of confined animal farming.

Remember Mad-Cow disease?  As I recall it came about from grinding up dead cattle and placing the treated mixture into commercial cattle feed.  And the resulting toxic germ development cycled thru the food chain right into our body systems.  Anyone remember the movie “Soylent Green”?  What a Classic!  And don’t forget “Silent Spring”.

I’ve been concerned about the Genetic Engineering going on with foodstuffs since I don’t believe any real study has been done about the train wreck such foolery might be laying in store for future generations.  To be decided once its too late.

So although man, some humans, not all, possess the ability to think rationally ( at different levels) you would think these rational thinkers would dictate that raising animals in close confinement for introduction into our food chain would realize the danger and prohibit such methods to continue.  What is the acceptable method?  Outdoor ranges - but that would cost lots of money wouldn’t it.

So then becomes the rationalization - we need a definition here:  Rationalization is the art of making excuses.  You may recall that once on one of these threads I said there is a difference between a reason and an excuse.  A reason is the Truth.  An excuse is well, not the truth, speaking politics we would use the word “SPIN”.  You know, kind of what the Trolls on here major in.

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By Ted Swart, August 4, 2011 at 10:46 am Link to this comment

By Gary Mont, August 4 at 10:02 am
You say:  Ted Swart: ‘I don’t think human beings can be “considered to be generally . . . rational”
Actually, you’re mistaking rationalization for intelligent thought’.

Come on Gary.  You are being unfair.  I am well aware of the difference between thinking rationally and rationalization. You used the word rational in the message I responded to (and quoted from) and never mentioned rationalization. Intelligent thought is a somewhat different beast to rational thought since the latter does not require an IQ of 140+. Apart from those with actual mental malfunction most of us are capable of rational thought.  But we are not trained to and do not use our rational apparatus to maximum advantage.
I am puzzled as to why you would disagree with me. You seemed to suggest in your original post that we might be better off if we were not capable of rational thought. That is a strange attitude to adopt and defend.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, August 4, 2011 at 10:42 am Link to this comment

Anarchissie, you say, “But I’m not going to worry about the bacteria and the other microorganisms, because there’s not a god-damned thing I can do about them.” 

In light of that 18,000 TON turkey recall.
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/43988256/ns/health-food_safety/  that’s 72 million people who aren’t going to get a turkey burger.  Not much you can do about that as a stand alone problem, but….

The extreme over use of anti-biotics in the agri-business area is placing so much excess anti-biotics in the human population that normal ‘bugs’ are no longer treatable by anti-biotic.  Those poor unsuspecting people who have no alternative but to eat this cheap mass-produced ‘food’, first, grow obscenely large due to it’s inability to satisfy hunger, second, they grow large because of the growth hormones, and third, they grow in themselves and their children super bugs.  Anti-biotic resistant strains of microbes that were killers just a generation ago.

You probably already do something about the first two items.  By paying a little more for non antibiotic/growth hormone foodstuffs, you might like to think you take pressure off the ‘factory food’ system.  Not really.

As for the third item, the overuse of antibiotics?  I don’t know what you can do, but I wish you well if you should contract one of these super bugs.  Imagine ‘7 degrees of Kevin Bacon’?  Now some schoolkid from Arkansas visits his sister in the big city who shops at the same market as you. 

We’re all in the same big slimy petri dish.  We might not be drinking too too much of each others urine yet. 

So what can you do about it?  Well, at least thank your government for taking care of a gross violation of decency for a food producer.  You know people agri-business aren’t going to have the will or clout to take care of a bad actor in their ranks.  Too many people there live in glass houses.

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By litlpeep, August 4, 2011 at 10:40 am Link to this comment

Hi, Anarcisse, who ” would just like to get human beings to stop killing and abusing each other, and I can’t even do that.”

Maybe the killers are already anticipating and attempting to join the about-to-react bacteria in “striking back” at humanity for all our vulgarities, especially right now, with science attempting to genetically modify bacteria so as to make it even more servile to human wants.

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Gary Mont's avatar

By Gary Mont, August 4, 2011 at 10:13 am Link to this comment

John Best:Of that water, what percentage is runoff through the spoil piles (the throw away) from mountaintop removal mining in W. VA.?

Only one of a myriad hidden horrors that the wealthy have created - in order to increase their profits by burying out of sight that which would otherwise cost money to eliminate properly - over the decades, that are going to come back to bite us all in the ass, I’m afraid.

In fact humanity is such a stupid creature when it comes to seeing into the future that its sometimes simply stunning to witness.

Behold civilization: where the mnost fertile lands once existed, humans have settled, prospered and multiplied, creating vast laters of concrete and tar over the very soil that attracted it to that location in the first place.

There should be a term for the sense of utter embarrassment I feel constantly at being a member of the human race.

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Gary Mont's avatar

By Gary Mont, August 4, 2011 at 10:02 am Link to this comment

Ted Swart:I don’t think human beings can be “considered to be generally . . . rational””.

Actually, you’re mistaking rationalization for intelligent thought. Its not necessarily so. One can easily rationalize that the gentic mutation of food plants will have no future impact on the survivability of the human race, for instance. You would be wrong of course, but its an easy rationalization to make - especially if you’re also earning a seven figure income from the some part of the genetic mutation process.

We rationalize the most absurd things to be the best things to do at any given moment, but seldom consider the long term nature of our decisions. This is due more to educational and indoctrinational training than to actual logical intelligence levels.

If one is trained to believe the sky is yellow, its nearly impossible for another to convince the one that it is really blue. Rationally speaking, anything the same color as the sky, would; for that person, also be yellow.

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Gary Mont's avatar

By Gary Mont, August 4, 2011 at 9:53 am Link to this comment

Anarcisse:The bacteria are the most successful of all forms of life, and they are more numerous and more variegated and far more weighty than we.

Ah, the first born. Nature’s finest creature, and the creator of all else since.

Agreed. Bacteria will eventually rule on earth once again.

Agreed, humanity has awoken a monster whose powers belittle human imagination.

Agreed. Humans have used rationalization for all the wrong purposes - as a means of justifying the most heinous and destructive of actions throughout history.

We will obvioulsy reap what we have sown, and our rationality will again make the things we do that kill us, appear to be the right things to do at the moment.

C’est la vie. C’est la morte.

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Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, August 4, 2011 at 7:55 am Link to this comment

Gary Mont—I meant we (the humans) are stuck with consciousness and rationality, even though most of us try very resolutely to shrug them off.

I think the most likely route of extinction, or near-extinction, for mankind is through the bacteria.  As ‘man’ (pardon my French) keeps stirring up shit (again, pardon my French) ‘he’ is troubling trouble, and trouble will trouble him in return.  The bacteria are the most successful of all forms of life, and they are more numerous and more variegated and far more weighty than we.  They have genetic imagination.  We have been bothering them, and eventually they are going to strike back.

To say nothing of myriad other microorganisms.  You’re probably aware that there are now several strains of pathogenic microorganisms, like staphlococci, which are impervious to all known antibiotics.  This immunity is due, of course, to the gross abuse of antibiotics in medicine and agriculture in the insane quest for more money.

But I’m not going to worry about the bacteria and the other microorganisms, because there’s not a god-damned thing I can do about them.  I would just like to get human beings to stop killing and abusing each other, and I can’t even do that.

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By Ted Swart, August 4, 2011 at 7:44 am Link to this comment

By Gary Mont, August 1 at 1:22 am
” Since human beings are considered to be generally conscious and rational, I personally think that consciousness and rationality are extremely over-rated.”

Gary:
Whilst it is true that evolution has provided us humans with consciousness and rational apparatus our rationality is hardly spread around evenly. In the world of science and technology we have made substantial progress but, when it comes to social relations or genuine morality,—based on rational considerations—we are sadly lacking.
I don’t think human beings can be “considered to be generally . . . rational”.  That is precisely the problem! We fail miserably when it comes to using our rational apparatus effectively. If we did, most of the world’s religions would have faded away long ago and the huge gap between rich and poor would be non-existent. .

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, August 4, 2011 at 6:14 am Link to this comment

Trying to connect dots….
Severe drought in Texas and Louisiana means a greater percentage of their water is coming from the Mississippi river I suppose?  Of that water, what percentage is runoff through the spoil piles (the throw away) from mountaintop removal mining in W. VA.?  Those spoil piles are deadly poisonous, but at least they get diluted a bit as the runoff water flows downstream.  Well, at least the coal that comes from under those mountaintops helps keep those in the South a little more comfortable.  Unfortunately, after the hot spell breaks, the spoil piles will still be there.  Some of that coal is going to air-condition D.C as well, but unfortunately, on the Potomac, the periods where the air is not hot are very short.  Anyway, the fear and reality of polluted drinking water should drive up sales of bottled water, which, contains ‘plasticizers’ that come from the bottles themselves.  I’ve been told these plasticizers act like female hormones, which make men fatter.  So, increased weight leaves us more in need of air conditioning, requiring more coal, thus fueling the cycle. 

I really pity those heavy people in the South, and even the fit ones, they’re caught in a terrible cyclone which is barely understandable, and which they are powerless to escape.  Like some perpetual beasts of burden. 

The cyclone analogy reminds me of the tornadoes and flooding these same folks have endured.  Pity them, many are dependent on the hot-air blowing federal government which they despise.

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Gary Mont's avatar

By Gary Mont, August 1, 2011 at 11:56 am Link to this comment

Anarcissie:We’re probably stuck with them, though.

Actually, at the rate we’re destroying the biological integrity of this planet - like a disease in fact - and at the rate the rich are eating the poor, I don’t think we’ll have to wait more than another ten years before humanity begins to rapidly decline and turns out to be the world’s most endangered species.

As soon as the Christians gain full access to government mandate and machinery, they will begin to bring about their one true goal for humanity - extinction.

It is after all, the belief that we all must die to fulfill their God’s plans for humanity that drives their insane rush to ruin the planet. Given the earthly power they so desperately seek, they will do their God’s work on earth.

The wealthy will assist them by taking the wealth of the world and turning it into Lear Jets and palace fortresses and fast cars and fun games like hunting the poor for sport. They will prove to the Christians that humanity is decadent, and evil beyond redemption, and should die.

They will aid the wealthy in the promotion of the 100 years of warfare planned by the wealthy to consolidate their capital into dynastic foundations and this in turn will aid the process by wiping out all who stand in the way of their military theft of the last natural resources on earth.

While this is always the way it ends, this time the destroyers will have vast arrays of technology to aid them in their quest for social destruction and should be able to accomplish the usual tasks in record time.

Methinks we will not be “stuck with them” for long.

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Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, August 1, 2011 at 7:59 am Link to this comment

We’re probably stuck with them, though.

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Gary Mont's avatar

By Gary Mont, August 1, 2011 at 1:22 am Link to this comment

Since human beings are considered to be generally conscious and rational, I personally think that consciousness and rationality are extremely over-rated.

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BR549's avatar

By BR549, July 31, 2011 at 8:36 pm Link to this comment

And what if, in a very crude sense, we said that two rocks in space were conscious enough of each other to immediately start attracting each other through gravity? If we took one rock and somehow picked it out of its current course and put it 90 degrees away from the other’s path, both would instantaneously still be aware of the change in position and begin correcting their courses.

I think we make a huge mistake in thinking that we must define consciousness solely in human terms. Consciousness is an evolutionary process.

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By Cliff Carson, July 31, 2011 at 6:24 pm Link to this comment

Well Anarcissie

If it is an organism, wouldn’t it by definition be alive?  And if it is alive would it not have at least one or more of the senses?

Conscious, means it could think or recognize one or more of the senses wouldn’t it?

So I would think the first argument should be - is it an organism?

Be your question is a good one.

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Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, July 31, 2011 at 5:52 pm Link to this comment

Richard Turner, July 31 at 10:38 am:

‘As we know the earth is a living, conscious organism. ...’

How do you know it’s conscious?

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BR549's avatar

By BR549, July 31, 2011 at 4:15 pm Link to this comment

John Best, June 22 at 7:18
“Get ready for drinking and domestic abuse as the organism implodes.’

Actually, that started happening about five years ago in CA as chains like Long’s Drugs, Safeway, and RiteAid all simultaneously started doing major resets to accommodate something that their sector analysts obviously know was coming down the pike. They all drastically increased the liquor footprint in their stores. But in the main stream media, everything was doing just fine.

So, in the “analogy” all that inflammation would be OK if we just took another Advil, forgetting of course that the pain in those joints was an indicator that we had chronic and increasing damage being done.

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Gary Mont's avatar

By Gary Mont, July 31, 2011 at 3:54 pm Link to this comment

Richard Turner:If this is progress, we just may have been better off left in the caves.

Humanity as a planetary disease….

Sadly, its appears to be quite impossible to dispute the logic therein.

Sadly….

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Gary Mont's avatar

By Gary Mont, July 31, 2011 at 3:48 pm Link to this comment

Richard Turner:However, on the other hand, the citizens, the people, the populace as you will, may be of equal blame for tolerating these self-destructive, suicidal/murderous psychopaths.

The reason the peasants tolerate the evils of the wealthy is quite simple really.

Our society - globally - seperates people by wealth, and holds great wealth above all else as the only goal worth achieving in life.

The peasants tolerate the evils of the rich because they hope and dream to someday be among the rich and so, have no real desire to limit the privileges afforded the wealthy, because someday they hope to aquire those very privileges when they become wealthy.

The only way possible to end this silly cycle of co-operative poverty and tolerance for evil, is to end the socially desirable goal of achieving wealth as the end-all and be-all of existence.

Good luck in that. smile

When this civilization runs its course - when the wealthy have accumulated all the wealth of the nations and hoarded it away once again - it will crumble to dust and the people will again fall to savagery and barbarism.

Eventually this idiotic phoenix will again rise, as the church, or something like it, gathers knowledge of population control from fragments of the past and again establishes a new social order of wealth-as-god civilization - a new rennaisance of the doomed.

This cycle has repeated itself since the gods left the earth in human hands and will continue until humanity manages to finally off itself entirely or until the earth is so irreparily damaged by resource aquisition and toxic wastes, that it will no longer sustain human life.

There is simply no way to wean humanity from the nipple of monetary and positional power.

Methinks the wealthy are fully aware of all of this and knowing there is nothing that can be done to stop it, have decidxed to simply take advantage of it and enjoy that advantage as long as possible.

I’m certain that the private efforts of the wealthy towards discovering the secret of human immortality are as over-funded as the efforts towards continued human evolution are under-funded.

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By Richard Turner, July 31, 2011 at 10:38 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

As we know the earth is a living, conscious organism. Like any organism that becomes threatened by an invading disease, it will defend itself. Is it any surprise that the planet’s immune system has kicked into high gear and eventually will go into overdrive, against the most offending invader that is currently acting like a cancer; the human species? Not only have we historically been on an annihilating campaign against our own species, but over the centuries we’ve seemed to have graduated to becoming a full-fledged threat now even to the very planet itself, and most of all it’s done in the name of progress? If this is progress, we just may have been better off left in the caves.

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By Richard Turner, July 31, 2011 at 10:25 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The so-called power elite are such addicts for power and control, like junkies, they are in denial of even their own destruction, much less what they’re doing to the eco-system and everyone else around them. It’s much easier for them to accept a claim of adaptability on the part of humans, then to assume responsibility in changing their habits, which would, on their part, require an admission of guilt. Something which they are obviously incapable of achieving or even desire to. However, on the other hand, the citizens, the people, the populace as you will, may be of equal blame for tolerating these self-destructive, suicidal/murderous psychopaths. For things to change, we have to change. For things to get better, we have to get better. So, folks, if we want positive change in our world, we’d better start by looking in the mirror, first.

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Gary Mont's avatar

By Gary Mont, June 22, 2011 at 2:01 pm Link to this comment

No surprise really.

People fixate over beer brands, car models, sports teams, and TV shows, and actually get into fist fights over whose choice is better, while, in truth, none of these things are worth a pinch of coon shit.

I assume it is just another part of our basic training; education indoctrination from childhood to laborhood, instituted by the state, for the state, to make us all more aggressive towards each other, and prevent any general co-operation among the peasants.

Stupidity training generally.

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By Cliff Carson, June 22, 2011 at 12:54 pm Link to this comment

Yes BR549

I think doctors call it Rheumatoid Arthritis and Lupus.

In Political Party fanaticism we should call it stupid.

Why is it that people will fixated on supporting a Party that they should know is giving them old BOHICA treatment (Bend over here it comes again)?

Yet just try saying something about one of the Party’s corruption and that party’s disciples will come screaming out of the woodwork to attack you with every weapon available.

Neither of the Two Major American Parties give a damn about the common man.  You need to remember that when you go to vote.

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drbhelthi's avatar

By drbhelthi, June 22, 2011 at 10:09 am Link to this comment

Information provided by Daniel Ellsberg, and associates, indicates that the administration is in the process of isolating all who disagree with the published report on 9-11. Efforts are underway to isolate Sibel Edmonds, and news media have been warned to stay away from her. Even the ID numbers of the airliners allegedly destroyed are reported to have been “re-used.”  Which, is allegedly why the airliners were located shortly after 9-11. 

Fortunately, there are thousands of videos, around the world, of initial TV coverage of the Pentagon debacle.  Absent tons of aluminum, blood and guts spattered on the outter wall of the Pentagon, and scattered on the grounds, initial TV coverage verified that no airliner crashed into the Pentagon on 9-11. One little, round hole with some smoke was visible.  Even the smoke may have been artificial.  Obviously, the Tomahawk Cruise was NOT programmed with a maximum load ! ! !

Totalitarianism is progressing.
If you dare, glance ahead two years - - , six months after the 2012 U.S. presidential election.  Russian psychics have been warning us for several years.  Perhaps Russian intelligence also.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, June 22, 2011 at 7:18 am Link to this comment

BR549, June 22 at 7:13 am - yes.

Along those lines…....
I understand China is going to start minimg copper in Afghanistan, and there are vast lithium deposits.  I suppose the US is formally being paid to be the global policeman, clearing the way for the Chinese. 

Another analogy?  We are a fairly young cop in debt, with each year becoming more unable to go back to school to learn to make a living in some other way.  The family of the cop is us.  Get ready for drinking and domestic abuse as the organism implodes.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, June 22, 2011 at 7:14 am Link to this comment

BR549, June 22 at 6:44 am not your bad, your good.  Fantastic analogy, seems accurate.  The terrorists (to be identified) tapped into the involuntary nature of the ‘fight of flight’ mechanisms, which are complex organs and chemistries.

Now to identify the ‘terrorists’.......I propose the actual al-quaida operatives were a low level of histamine in a bit of sashimi ingested by an asthmatic patient.  To avoid another such attack, should our brain terrorize every cell in the body, or just avoid sashimi?

p.s. I’m no doctor, but I had an experience with borderline sashimi recently.  Scombroid poisoning.

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By BR549, June 22, 2011 at 7:13 am Link to this comment

BR549, June 22 at 6:44 am

I forgot to add that, as with an immune system disorder, the body soon sees parts of its own body as the enemy and employs elaborate ways to target and kill the “offenders”, even if they were just busy performing their normal function for the benefit of the body as a whole. Eventually, the sheer stupidity of it all kills the entire organism.

Does any of this sound familiar?

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, June 22, 2011 at 7:04 am Link to this comment

“........you just have to assume you’re being surveilled.” 

This is America right up to the point we chicken out.  We can and will use any and all legal means of legal protest and/or legal political action.  But, do we have the will?  Will we ever acheive a critical mass to stand up to the veiled threats and bombastic intimidating rhetoric? 

If indeed the FBI has been infiltrated by faschists,  Viva la Resistance!  F-them.  WE actually have a fairly decent society, with a few problems, yes, but manageable through understanding.  The omnipresent use of scare tactics is intolerable BS. 

This is a culture war, a war for the means and type of discourse, a war of and about words.  There is nothing, nothing illegal about that.  There are a very few cases which are illegal.  Advocating the commission of a crime, or perhaps advocating armed rebellion.  But god-f___ing-damnit, there is a hell of a lot of protected free speech and right of assembly to work with———-if people are not intimidated. 

There are ‘enemies foreign and domestic’, and the domestic enemies are anyone who would err on the side or repressing free speech and assembly.  Let’s at least be clear on that. 

Anyway, I was skimming some old postings and it seems ‘Fascist’ is a word on their list to redefine.  ‘Propaganda’ too apparently.  Is anybody anywhere recording the transformation of key words into Orwellian doublespeak? 

Pffffft…..

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By BR549, June 22, 2011 at 6:44 am Link to this comment

John,
Great ideas. The problem with all this is the personal motivations of those in government whose only motivations SHOULD have been their public service to the populace. Using my version of the immune system metaphor, what we are seeing today is nothing more than an auto-immune disease run amok. The brain is telling the rest of the body to go into a state of panic when there is no reason other than a complete fabrication of a threat.

So, as I had said earlier, the brain tells the body to forego all the regular long term maintenance functions for of a set of “fight or flight” (in this case, “fight”) functions. We forego any efficient energy utilization to tap into various levels of stored energy because, since we “perceived” there to be an increasing threat, we sequentially exhaust any intelligently stored battery of energy in order to support that state of panic until we no longer perceive the threat to be real. We do this by immediately elevating our glucose levels and increasing our heart rate, respiratory rate, and blood pressure to help deliver elevated levels of oxygen and and glucose to the brain and muscles as fast as possible. It is no different than supercharging a race car that runs on nitromethane. Same thing.

We elevate our response to the level of threat and as long as we stay in that “head space”, we continue to severely deplete our resources to accommodate whatever boogeyman has been put in front of us. We elevate our insulin levels to help force glucose through the cell wall and then as the glucose level begins to drop, the hormone glucagon starts converting liver and muscle stores of glycogen into glucose and the process continues to the point of destructively catabolizing muscle tissue that we spent an entire lifetime storing energy and minerals into to deal with this perceived threat in front of us right now, today. In order to keep the organism alive, no option is off the table.

Look at what our Chicken Little motivated “brain”, (the White House, the Congress, and the Supreme Court) has done to the long term functionality of our social body. We go into a global poverty mentality and immediately find it necessary to hoard everything, and I mean everything. These are very sick people. Instead of tapping into any level of higher intelligence, they seem destined to only be able to keep humanity chained in the cellars of evolution.

I’m rambling again .... my bad.

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By Anarcissie, June 22, 2011 at 6:04 am Link to this comment

There is nothing to stop you all from starting an invitation-only discussion group or mailing list.  I think Google and Yahoo, among others, support such things.  You may find the fare a bit bland absent the pepper of the occasional troll or crank.

In my experience, wherever two or three are gathered together, there the FBI is also.  Especially if it’s online.  Many years ago some friends of mine started a cooperative nursery school and day care center which they later found out had been infiltrated by at least one informant.  Why?  Possibly because in choosing a name to go with their telephone number, the group humorously used the word ‘liberation’. 

In any event, you just have to assume you’re being surveilled.  Back in the bad old days of the Soviet Union, the dissident Sakharov noted that the government of the S.U. spent many billions of rubles trying to find out what people were thinking; he thought this money could be saved by simply permitting free speech.  But here in the U.S. we observe this is not so: we have free speech, and nevertheless our government spends many billions of dollars spying on its own citizens.  I guess it’s what people want: the comforting feeling that Big Brother is watching them.  Otherwise it would become a major political issue.

Going by what I read, it’s also reasonable to assume that the government may attempt to actively disrupt a group, or provoke criminal behavior.  However, this applies more to people doing real activism, not just blabbing on the Net, where there are plenty of volunteer disrupters anyway.

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By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, June 22, 2011 at 4:58 am Link to this comment

Two quick thoughts.
1. Army of one, double edge sword. No infiltratability, but ‘lone wolves’ don’t enjoy the cameraderie of group support, nor do they produce adequate motivating force without numbers.  Imagine a boycott of one?

2. The engineer in Cliff and I want to move this to ‘What Resistance Looks Like’, and I would even advocate going to a more secure location, but one starts to profile as a terrorist.  The damn fear factor is working.  This is utter-bullshit in a Democracy.  If someone wants to talk in private about legal, but ‘rebellious’ acts, political acts, then by f___ing god, in America we shouldn’t feel big brother may be watching.  Big brother can be the government itself, or, private interests monitoring communications through government sanctioned invasions of privacy.  I propose a combination of the ‘What Resistance Looks Like’, and the ‘Electronic Brownshirts’ articles.  But, a forum from which trolls can be expelled by a democratically elected council.  Just thinking.

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By Gary Mont, June 21, 2011 at 11:32 pm Link to this comment

Anarcissie:I wasn’t talking about illegal acts.

Nor was I.

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By Anarcissie, June 21, 2011 at 9:07 pm Link to this comment

I wasn’t talking about illegal acts.

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By Gary Mont, June 21, 2011 at 7:25 pm Link to this comment

Thank you Cliff Carson.

The more effectively coherent the strategists on the underdog side in this chess game become, the more the forces of Empire will focus on them.

Contrary to popular belief, the Empire will always try and strike first.

It is their nature to use their myriad paid minions (those of us who have turned to the dark side for cash) to utterly crush anything that resembles opposition, before it can become opposition.

Forgive my Star Wars theme. smile

On the other hand, by never disrespecting ANY offered ideas that appear to be made in an attempt to further the cause, we prevent the easy recognition of what is acceptable action from what is essentially noise.

And in truth, even what appear to be the most far fetched notions often contain within them, the seed of true brilliance, precision and truth.

I would also reccomend cells of one. Infiltration is the Empire’s forte. As an example look at NORML - half a century of do-naught and they’re still getting donations from the public to continue the good work.

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By Cliff Carson, June 21, 2011 at 2:43 pm Link to this comment

An excellent and necessary observation Gary Mont.

Some might remember that Bush issued a directive to look into forming a committee to seine the internet looking for commenter “thought” tendencies who showed the potential for future “Terrorist” acts.  This was strictly a spying on Americans.

The gist was that once identified, these people could be secretly spirited away into secret confinement never to be heard from again.  In other words they could be disappeared and therefore “prevented” from doing a dastardly deed before they actually did it.

There are two sides to that coin of good and evil. 

And I don’t have to tell you what they are and on what set of circumstances we common folk could become the enemy of the state.  In Bush proposal the decision maker would be the Secretary of State.  Any organized resistance would be met by his Directive 51 (for those who aren’t aware, Directive 51 gave the President authority to declare when there was a National emergency, an on that declaration the President would supersede the elected Government).

The problem was that Bush is a Republican and therefore he could count on a fairly hefty percentage of the Republican faithful to support this God awful idea, simply because they were Republicans.  And I don’t think Obama did away with it either, so if not, it is still there and now there is a hefty percentage of Democrats that would now go for it, because they are Democrats.

Get the idea?  Party loyalty is killing this freedom guaranteed by the Constitution.

One of Gary Mont’s list “Increase Government Transparency” could go a ways to forcing Government out of the “Raise the Drawbridge Mentality”  if it could be installed and it would be good for both the common man and ethical Constitutional Government.

My guess is that if such a grassroots cry arose, the Party in power would be fighting it tooth and nail while the other Party would try to make political capital and in the Media would cry for it, but would never want that type of reform and when crunch time came would behind the scenes do everything to stop it.

Meanwhile the two divided groups of Common Man, Democrats and Republicans, would make a furious fuss to support their Party and nothing would happen, or if it did, common man would find himself deeper in the dungeon of oppression.

But Gary has the right idea.  Take a subject at a time and discuss it.  How does a group go about that?  That is probably what needs to be discussed first and what Resistance Looks Like should be a perfect forum.

Before I retired, when a problem needed to be solved, we would gather and go through the old round robin Brainstorming secessions. 

There was only one thing forbidden:  Disrespecting an idea of one of the group.  Opposition was fine, disrespect put you on the other side of the door.

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By Gary Mont, June 21, 2011 at 11:46 am Link to this comment

On the other hand, forums like this are the last place I would post my actual intentions or soon to be carried out actions for active rebellion.

An enemy forwarned…

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By Anarcissie, June 21, 2011 at 10:59 am Link to this comment

John Best, June 21 at 9:00 am:

‘... Anarcissie says, “Discussing things on forums actually seems to detract from the likelihood that the participants will do anything else.”  Got any proof? ...’

No, of course I don’t have proof.  I’m reporting personal observation, and the complaints of many activists in recent years to similar effect.  It makes a certain amount of sense.  In the old days, to find people who shared your peculiar opinions, you had to show up.  Today, you can get on the Net and there are thousands of people who agree with you so you don’t have to do anything but sing in the choir.

Your mileage may vary.  But I’ve noticed that one way to stop a discussion dead in its tracks is to suggest that its continued development might lead to some form of action.

Look at all the complaints about Mr. O on this web site.  Now find out how many of the complainers (who were not already doing so) are active in constructing a political alternative within whatever their scheme of things is.  I could be wrong—there could be a lot of scurrying about out there—but if so it’s mighty quiet scurrying.

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By BR549, June 21, 2011 at 9:39 am Link to this comment

John Best, June 21 at 9:00 am
“To be fair though, I suppose in some cases, perhaps people use forums like this as a substitute for real interaction.”

Wouldn’t that assume that the only way we can interface with people is through direct contact? I beg to disagree. Remember, the vast majority of these people are very easily influenced by both good .... and bad. As Morpheus had said to Neo, “Most people are not ready to be unplugged”, so they go about their day little realizing the roles they play and the patterns they reinforce. I happen to think
that there is a lot of power on the collective, and don’t think for one moment that the globalists aren’t aware of it either. That is what Bohemian Grove is about. Mind control from the top, over the TV and Radio, mind control in the limited choices we have (particularly at the voting booth), and these same cattle seem ecstatic over being able to exercise “free will”.

Locke got into this quite well, but I like using the Matrix; more people are familiar with that format. In there, the Oracle said to Neo, “We can’t see beyond choices we don’t understand”, and THAT, I argue, is another of the most powerful statements in the entire trilogy.

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By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, June 21, 2011 at 9:00 am Link to this comment

BR549,
I could not agree more.  When people know they are not alone in their thinking and circumstance, change for the better becomes possible, sometimes inevitable. 
“The hotter the fire of the debate, the stronger the steel of the ideas”. - Unknown.

Anarcissie says, “Discussing things on forums actually seems to detract from the likelihood that the participants will do anything else.”  Got any proof?  How do you know seeing others with similar ideas doesn’t embolden people to do “actual stuff”, as if influencing people isn’t “actual stuff” itself?  Last, suppose in the real world a group of friends decided they were going to do something political in the real world.  Something like, oh, drop off 1000 pamphlets in the buses in town.  Whatever.  Where do they work out the message, the plan, the audience demographic, etc.?  In some forum.  But where do they get more sophisticated ideas to discuss among their friends in their little ‘bus pamphlet caper forum’?  Places like this.  We might not be the ultra-ultra elite thinksters, but there are some darn sharp cookies here, and I thoroughly enjoy the context the discussion provides for many other human interactions

To be fair though, I suppose in some cases, perhaps people use forums like this as a substitute for real interaction.  I’ve encountered socially awkward people who I suspect developed in the safety behind the keyboard.

But people learn, they get bored, when they go out into the real world, forums like this particular one, Truthdig, give them at least some content to offer with their social awkwardnesses.

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By TAO Walker, June 21, 2011 at 8:13 am Link to this comment

Among our People it is the ‘practice’ to stay-away from direct address, in our
Counsel Circles (of which forums like this one are only vaguely approximate
because of their structurally imposed ‘linearity’).  We’ve found it helps us to
minimize the kinds of ad hominem and otherwise CONfrontational distractions
noted below (ruefully?) by John Best and ‘others’.  Refraining from an over-
reliance on variations of ‘the-first-person-singular’ (the I/ME/MY/MINE
syndrome) has the same salutary effect on our ‘discourse.’

This Old Man does not dismiss, or even discount the difficulty many have with
the way words (most of them, however, quite familiar and in common use) are
strung-together in observations and suggestions offered here.  As has been
‘explained’ already several times, though, it is not easy trying to ‘stuff’ the
Living Original Language of Organic Functional Integrity into the CONceptual
‘coffin’ that the ‘English’ language and most of its ‘modern’ “foreign”
companions have become….under the influence of an increasingly mechanistic
“global” CONceit.

Still, people often tout the benefits of being able to “think outside the box.”  It
seems to Yours Truly that a willingness to get beyond the trite and formulaic,
in our ‘output’ and ‘intake’ of semantically transmitted information, is essential
to achieving such an unfettered and fluid capacity to engage verbally with this
Free Wild and ever-changing Living World.

Under the idiotic ‘dominance’ paradigm, though, the impetus is to compel Life
Herownself to CONform to the wishes and desires of the wannabe ‘domineers.’ 
Their language inevitably becomes just one more device for forcing such “self”-
referential outcomes….a device which effectively locks them up, however, in the
‘prison’ of its own CONtrived ‘boundaries’....as more-and-more of Life’s own
Free Wild expressions become virtually (and literally) “unspeakable” for them. 
That just happens to be the same ‘super-highway’ down which the tormenting
entities have hurtled their own “SELf,” and are driving their Human
‘captives’....nearly, here in the terminal stages of its ‘process,’ to its always
inevitable DEAD END.

So this Old Savage is just ‘here’ (in the not-really-anywhere of ‘cyberspace’) 
translating (as best as an admittedly limited talent allows) that Living Original
Language, from which all ‘ancient’ and ‘modern’ languages devolved, into but
one of its boxed-in and CONfining latter Day ‘descendants’. 

HokaHey!

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By BR549, June 21, 2011 at 8:05 am Link to this comment

John et al,
The issues brought up and discussed here, don’t just stay here. As people read and continue to respond to them (on whatever forum), they change inside, however subtly. Not only do I become aware of Shenonymous’ brilliant contributions, but also those from yourself, Cliff, TAO, Lee, Anarcissie, Ted, and others (I don’t mean to leave anyone out).

Someone may have a bombshell of a post, and yet many people won’t actually “get it”. (Personally, I believe that, when they clicked on the email notification that there was a post on the list, they were already getting a download of its content, but that’s another
discussion.) Every day, that bubble of awareness gets larger and larger. We read someone’s post in the morning and it starts a fermentation process within us, and everyone that we have a conversation with that day gets the benefit of that increase in awareness, whether their was ever an actual conversation over the material or not. It is all about truth and when we become hungry for the truth, the lies start falling by the wayside, so I don’t happen to believe contributing to posts like this is pointless.

When I get on some HOT topic, perhaps even developing an analogy I hadn’t thought of before, I envision that like dropping a rock into the water and watching the waves propagating outward. Somehow or another, each and every person who contributes to these forums has set themselves up as both transmitters and receivers of the information exchanged here. It’s a lot more powerful than many people think.

My two cents

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By Anarcissie, June 21, 2011 at 6:22 am Link to this comment

John Best, June 21 at 5:24 am:
’... I am saying we can form a new political party, or at least a new social movement.  Imagine a working structure, tasked with good, into which the good folks, bored with Facebook, bored with television, disillusioned with our lack of any moonshot like initiative, can find a place to actually work, to contribute. ...’

Discussing things on forums actually seems to detract from the likelihood that the participants will do anything else.  I belong to a few groups which do things (besides discuss things on their forums) and the online discussions are usually ancillary to the other activities.

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By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, June 21, 2011 at 5:24 am Link to this comment

@TAO, Good Morning.

@BR, I appreciate your projection of the analogy.  That’s just good design.  If one can envision and solve extensions of a problem, often the real essences of the immediate problems become more apparent in the process and more robust (and extend-able) solutions come forth.

The rest of this post has nothing to do with the meteorological climate, or mans capability or potential in the ecosystem/universe.

@Cliff, I remember that list, it wasn’t mine.  Gary Mont I think deserves credit.  It was useful as starting points, but the devil in the details of implementation needs addressed.

You ask, “Do you think we common folk can build a bridge?”  No.  Perhaps we can “row in the same direction”,  but no, we can’t “reach across the water”.  IMO, it’s simply too efficient, once the ‘powers that be’ recognize that efforts to come together are materializing, to quash, or disrupt said efforts.  Look at MarthA as a micro-example.  BUT, we can work for the same goals if we don’t worry about acknowledging it. 

@anyone still interested: This dropping in and dropping out of forums is going to be a burn-out experience for bright people who might make a serious contribution in the ‘culture war’, the war of words and ideas that is ensuing.  We need to establish a place, to which contributors can be invited, later to be welcomed into a larger community of ‘people of hope and good will’.  There are tactics and strategies for gently pushing mankind in a better direction despite what sometimes appear to be insurmountable obstacles. 

There is a war of words, with many battle fronts, and there are physical acts which can be coordinated.  Extremely narrowly focused boycotts combined with pressures to evolve policies.  We can drive wedges as well as Karl Rove to break up the political pressure toward totalitarianism.

This next sentence should be on the Chris Hedges article, “What Resistance Looks Like”........Unfortunately, the time is here to decide if we are to become cultural insurgents.  We have been conditioned to think we have no power and the tools are under the control of ‘evil corporations’.  It aint so. 

This next sentence should be under the Amy Goodman article, “Electronic Brownshirts”.......A first line of defense needs understood and established…....that against the various forms of disruptive ill-intentioned trolls.  Someone might write a bit of a thesis on the personality types and motivations of these people.  At present, the common trait seems to be that they eventually engage in conversation that goes beyond reasonable debate to a more disruptive form, not meant to produce resolution or common understanding, rather, intended to ‘turn off’ the forum.  I would urge all people of good will to hang around these forums and keep mental notes as to what people are indeed seemingly of good intention.  I’m learning this takes time, prodding, observation, decently crafted questions, etc.  It is fantastic to find good people, and separate the ill-intentioned from them, but where do the good people go to develop tactics and strategies? 

Our version of the neo-con think tanks have already or will materialize.  Unlike this sort of forum, Truthdig, openly public, a place to let off steam, I predict these cloistered forums must be by invitation, and exist as many ‘departments’ engaged in various activities to push our culture in a better direction.  We have the classic problem, ‘herding cats’, and we must quickly understand and deal with it. 

I am saying we can form a new political party, or at least a new social movement.  Imagine a working structure, tasked with good, into which the good folks, bored with Facebook, bored with television, disillusioned with our lack of any moonshot like initiative, can find a place to actually work, to contribute.  There is a good turbulence looking for a catalyst.  Look for good people and stay tuned to one of these forums.  Keep them active.

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By BR549, June 20, 2011 at 10:02 pm Link to this comment

TAO Walker, June 20 at 8:50 pm

“Has “BR549” perhaps forgotten that in the truly “higher vision” there simply isn’t anybody “else”....or any “karma,” either?”

To answer your question, um NO, he hasn’t. Not sure why you chose to address the issue in the third person. Whatever floats your boat. I have to be honest with you, I’m not sure about John or Cliff, but I’m having a hard time following your logic. It appears that you have something you’d like to convey here, but every other word seems to be highlighted with CON this or CON that and then you’re on your version of the immune system thing. If you’re wondering why I’ve responded to so few of your posts, that’s why.

I had also used the immune system analogy (on other threads a while back).  I noted how our exaggerated response to terrorism was akin to a person with Chicken Little Syndrome; running around all the time waiting for the sky to fall.  While in that state, the body shuts down its digestive and detoxification functions or, pertaining to paranoid cultures, it would show up as a near total disregard for the efficient utilization of natural resources and not giving a crap about the environment. Under that “fight or flight” response, everything needs to be done NOW with little regard for the future because ...... there may not be a future, so why bother wasting time as if there were? A self fulfilling prophesy.

That analogy gets more in depth when you consider the mechanics of glucagon, insulin, cortisol, epinephrine, etc., because they also have direct social equivalents when attempting to explain the madness we are seeing today in the news, wars, and politics.

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By TAO Walker, June 20, 2011 at 8:50 pm Link to this comment

Has “BR549” perhaps forgotten that in the truly “higher vision” there simply isn’t
anybody “else”....or any “karma,” either?

HokaHey!

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By TAO Walker, June 20, 2011 at 8:43 pm Link to this comment

It is the given Human Organic Function within Earth’s Living Arrangement, as a
component in Her immune system (and not any particular nationality or
ethnicity), that is essential to Her wholeness and health….just as an adequately
functioning immune system in John Best’s birthday-suit (and not any situational
‘preferences’ among his T-cells, for instance) is essential to his.  In order to
sufficiently fulfill our Human Function, we need to be able to respond as
required to circumstances and events occurring within the ambit of our
responsibilities.

The immuno-suppression regime of the “civilization” disease process, with its
“self”-CONtrolled eCONomic operating system,  has effectively ‘corralled’ much
of Humanity, “individual”-ized the captives,  and CONfined them to CONditions
wherein free and direct access to our Living Arrangement is effectively cut-off,
for the vast bulk of of the virtual subspecies homo domesticus.  The
CONsequence of that including the “insult” that not only can the ‘imates’ of the
“global” gulag no longer engage with Nature in the ways necessary to the
fulfillment of our Human Function, but also the “injury” of their being deprived
of the natural nourishment and other Organic support vital to our health and
wholeness as a Species.

So our domesticated Sisters and Brothers become riddled with disease, and
thrown into the same kinds of dysfunction and CONfusion that is common to
other Kinds, among All Our Relations, subjected by tame two-leggeds to the
same degrading and degenerative industrial-agriculture regime.  They are
fattened-up on toxic fodder, laced with substances designed to leave them
always ‘hungry’ for more.  The water they drink is CONtaminated, as is the air
they breathe, by their own waste. 

All this is “rational”-ized by the make-believe imperatrives of “the business of
government”....and a subspecies just ‘smart’ enough to be useful to the
exploitative tormenting entity, but not ‘smart’ enough to recognized it’s actual
CONdition, comes to serve effectively as its own ‘jailer.’  From a wannabe
parasite’s point-of-view it’s a ‘perfect’ world.  How’s it looking, though, here in
the terminal phase of the “civilization” disease process, to the hapless Human
‘hosts’ and ‘hostesses’?  Going by all the anxiety and disCONtent (to put it
mildly) with their deteriorating situation these Days, as expressed just on this
sit by John Best and ‘others,’ it looks to this Old Indian like their monomanic
pursuit, of the Harpy of “happiness,” somehow isn’t turning-out how it was
supposed-to.

Maybe there’s something-to this Tao of Humanity ‘thing,’ after-all.

HokaHey!

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By BR549, June 20, 2011 at 8:15 pm Link to this comment

Cliff,
There used to be this “2% Rule” which went something like, “If 2% of a given population practiced meditation on a regular basis, their combined effort could swing the thoughts of the rest of the population; something like Rupert Sheldrake’s Morphogenic Principle, or the 100th Monkey stuff.

It is what sets the Red Pill users apart from the Blue Pill users and keeps the masses thinking like mindless sheep instead of sentient beings. It all starts with having a higher vision; one that doesn’t interfere with anyone else’s karma.

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By Cliff Carson, June 20, 2011 at 6:56 pm Link to this comment

Excellent question BR549

“When we visualized going to the moon, we made it happen. Why do we think that we can only manifest material things or that our thoughts cannot evolve as well?”

Why is it that Mankind seeks to limit its potential?  Or maybe it doesn’t.  Could it be that we often accept a defeatist mentality - for example"We can’t fight our way out of this Political Party Vise that we have allowed ourselves to get clamped into?

And is it easier to wallow in our self pity of servitude as opposed to experiencing the pain of breaking free of our oppressors?

John Best sometime long ago - maybe even on a different thread, made a list of things in no particular order that he thought might be needed to reclaim the American Dream.

John, I copied that thread and I haven’t seen anyone respond, and neither did I , but I meant to.  Isn’t it strange how people often have good intentions but get distracted and get off subject? 

Anyway, the second item on your list of probably 50 items is “Break Up the Big Banks”.

I noticed “break up the Fed” in this recent thread.  If we do that we will break up the Big Banks, but to do that we have to get rid of the corruption in our Government first.

Snugly located at # 30 on your list is “Establish and define"Financial
Terrorism” as a treasonous act and prosecute offenders vigorously.”

Why I bring this up is because of the statements in here about getting caught up in squabbles, words meanings, and other nonsense.

This thread is in response to the claim of Global Warming and how Humans are destroying the World and the other side consisting of people like we who take exception to that claim.

Neither side is going to change their mind and with that being fact, both sides are going to have to suffer the consequences of one side “setting the Policy”.

Reading these threads, I see the very same problem. No one is willing to give credence to the other side.  But that is exactly what is needed to retake our American Dream.

Probably 95% of American Citizens want to throw off the yoke of oppression placed on us by an out of control Government that is totally non-responsive to the common man who makes their Elitism possible.

Yet here the 95% of us wallow in our own excrement all the while blaming the other common man for the excesses of the Elite.

Do you think we common folk can build a bridge?

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By BR549, June 20, 2011 at 5:59 pm Link to this comment

Well John,
People are free to turn off the reply option any time they wish to and, in the end, it might just be you and I here using this space as a chalkboard.

I just wanted to make sure you saw how far I was projecting that analogy. It didn’t just start with the cells and end with population behavior. The next phase was in the “evolution” of the human spirit and then, along with all life on this planet and life everywhere in the Universe, whatever that awareness ladder looks like. Perhaps, somewhere along the line, if we don’t all kill ourselves first along with destroying our habitat, we might gain more of an understanding of our place in this Universe and higher levels of God consciousness. To that end, it could be that mankind’s purpose might have been to collectively focus on a common goal of detouring an asteroid from destroying the Earth. But as long as we are stuck in petty disagreements and warring with each other over the table scraps of existence, we will never aspire to anything more than what the animal kingdom did; fight over resources. An entire Universe of Greg Braden’s Zero Point Energy, that limitless energy in the vacuum of the atom and of space, and we are here again fighting over table scraps because we lack the faith to evolve to a point where no longer have to laterally parasitize each other in order to survive.

When we visualized going to the moon, we made it happen. Why do we think that we can only manifest material things or that our thoughts cannot evolve as well?

Ok, I stuck my neck out on that one.  :o)

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By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, June 20, 2011 at 5:05 pm Link to this comment

All good analogies as far as they go, but the example at the very end…...
“When those pretending to be in charge threaten to kill the workers or continue to steal all the profits for themselves, it would be like the brain saying, “I’m sorry, we need every last bit of glucose today, you’ll just have to wait until tomorrow.” Meanwhile, the heart stops pumping and everyone dies because of managerial myopia, which is what the globalists have.”

If people realized how damn expendable, how ‘throw away’ they are, how damn used they are, it might help wake them up.  You are sure as hell spot on about bankers.  Abandon the FED?  Aint good enough, it should be burned down and the ground salted.  That is an area where, as I point out below, some right-wing rhetoric and left can be turned around on themselves…...the FED is hated by both.  One might write a few pages about how anti-FED material might appear in the bits of media we can access. 

But, I must apologize, I don’t think this is the forum for this particular discussion.  I thank you for your expansion.

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By BR549, June 20, 2011 at 4:48 pm Link to this comment

John,
The contract I was referring to could “probably” fit somewhere between Rousseau and Locke, but I’m only leaning on their similarities. The point is that man may appear to be free to make a choice, but where else is he going to be able to live and still embrace the unity of family and community? Nowhere. So, in a sense, he is still imprisoned in this choice set of no choice other than to conform to the surrounding environment; a Hobson’s “like it or try to leave it” scenario.

That said, we now have a variety of governing styles over which the populace (or the cells) are governed, and take your pick. We have plutocracies, oligarchies, monarchies, republics, democracies, communism, socialism, dictatorships, and I still argue that a compassionately run dictatorship would be better than a poorly run democracy; the only problem is what happens after that first dictator’s reign?

Armed with one of the most powerful documents in the history of mankind, we still managed to fuck it up because we allowed the BANKS to enter the picture, after the bible and thousands of years of history were thrown aside; like somehow, our legislature knew more than the ancients did.

Well, it’s that same immature thinking, because our legislators live in the age of Oprah and Hannity and what could those writers back then possibly know of the problems we face today?

All I was referring to regarding the “contract” was that a person’s DNA has given them a set of operating instructions and if that cell continues to function as per agreement, all its needs will be met. If the cell starts reading an errant message (damaged DNA), and the job isn’t performed correctly, some part of the body chemistry or replication is thrown out of whack and either the organism dies prematurely or it passes on defective messaging that runs afoul of the deeper coding instructing that organism to conform to an even higher standard. As above, so below.

The bottom line is that the higher up the contract is being enforced, the higher the level of truth and responsibility that is needed in order to evolve that organism (or even, collectively, a species) to a new level. When those pretending to be in charge threaten to kill the workers or continue to steal all the profits for themselves, it would be like the brain saying, “I’m sorry, we need every last bit of glucose today, you’ll just have to wait until tomorrow.” Meanwhile, the heart stops pumping and everyone dies because of managerial myopia, which is what the globalists have.

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By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, June 20, 2011 at 4:24 pm Link to this comment

TAO, Naturally we all speak for our self, and those ‘selfs’ who agree with us.
 
At the risk of misdirecting the thread just a tad, I must ask if your view of seeing free wild peoples as necessary to the earth isn’t a little, uh, self centered, overly important, even arrogant? 

And, quantitatively, were the Lacota significantly better for the Earth than other pre-industrial revolution peoples in the western hemisphere? 

HokaHey!

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By TAO Walker, June 20, 2011 at 3:46 pm Link to this comment

John Best is of course ‘entitled’ and welcome to speak for his"self.”  It’s not
unlikely, either, that he’ll find more than a little agreement among ‘others’ of his
Kind….the virtual subspecies homo domesticus.  He isn’t qualified, however, to
‘speak’ for Mother Earth about what She might or might not “need”....or for us
surviving Free Wild Peoples who remain fully engaged in our Organic Function as a
vital component in Her immune system.

Anyhow, such desperate measures as “social CONtracts” only crop-up among
people who have already lost The Tao of their Humanity.

HokaHey!

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By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, June 20, 2011 at 1:37 pm Link to this comment

TAO,

“the question of just how insignificant the immune function must feel to some Person whose birthday-suit is infected with AIDS….or even
asthma.”  Who cares how the immune system (humans) ‘feel’?  We feel our own ‘self’ significance, and beside, the planet does not need us.  That’s why the immune system analogy aint no damn good.  WE don’t correct planetary maladies, we cause them.  We’re better described as a pathogen than a T=cell.

As for the social CONtract, well, that’s the agreement between decent white people that they’ll live by something that resembles The Tiyoshpaye Way.  It’s only a CON if its perverted into something like the old CONtract with America of the mid-90’s.  I understand they have anew one now. 

The social contract paraphrased: We healthy folk of working age will take care of the old, the sick and the young and the helpless.  Not the lazy.  We’ll pay for the education of the young ones so they’re better equipped to hold up their end of the social contract when they are of age.  It also implies something about doing your damn best to pull your own weight to some of us.

So, what’s wrong with that?  It’s only a con if some damn generation is hijacked by a mis-direction of it’s responsibility, and that’s exactly where we are now.  The young ones are buying into ‘every man for himself’, the ideology of the free-marketeers, the bankers, the polluters, and other breakers of the social contract and Tiyoshpaye Way.

Now, BR may say the social contract above is not the same as those described by Locke and Rousseau, but again, paraphrased and adapted, that’s the geist of it.  It’s what we need a broad general understanding and agreement on.  Quick.

HokaHey!

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By TAO Walker, June 20, 2011 at 12:53 pm Link to this comment

This Old Man sure doesn’t mean to curb John Best’s enthusiasm for “BR549”‘s
drawn-out anatomical metaphor.  Nor does it seem likely, at the moment, to
come-up with anything to disabuse the former of a very understandable
infatuation with the very seductive “social CONtract” CONfabulation.

Here’s ‘why’.  Some Moons back, a sometimes ‘poster’ appearing here as “Writer
On The Storm” also took umbrage at the Natural Fact of HumanKind being
merely a “menial” component in Earth’s immune system.  This Indian asked, but
got no reply-to, the question of just how insignificant the immune function
must feel to some Person whose birthday-suit is infected with AIDS….or even
asthma.

It is likely only John Best’s (Him showing every ‘sign’ of there being a Natural
Person hiding in there somewhere.) very own too-precious “self,” anyhow,
prompted-by its CONtrol-freak overlord “SELF,” that is so prone to “fight shy”
of accepting the humble Organic Function of an immune system component. 
When the damned fools first showed-up here an eon or two ago, and declared
their intention to “take-over” the “MANagement” of Mother Earth’s Living
Arrangement, GreatGrandMother and GreatGrandFather very kindly suggested
they just weren’t ready for that ‘level’ of Responsibility….and offered the soon-
to-be (despite that Good Counsel) tormenting entities the option of first
serving a kind of setting-up-exercise ‘apprenticeship’ with us Free Wild Human
Beings, as a vital part of Her immune system.

Of course, being already totally full-of-their"SELF,” “the invaders” (as The Maya
People named them) rather haughtily refused such a “menial” place (as John
best seems, at-present anyhow, also inclined to do.  The rest, as ‘they’ say, is
“HIS-story.”

Meanwhile, the social dys-arrangement that has come to dominate the public
and “private” half-lives of our domesticated Human Relations, is itself entirely a
CONsequence of their having CONtracted the “civilization” disease.  At latest
report, the last hard-core hold-outs among the tormentors and their two-
legged tools aren’t at-all interested in re-negotiating the ‘deal,’ either.

Looks like it’s ALL TOGETHER NOW in our given Organic Function, humbling as
that may be for the “self”-CONtrolled, or….well, NOTHING?

HokaHey!

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By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, June 20, 2011 at 10:53 am Link to this comment

Well TAO, sincerely and with all due respect, as one would show an elder, from my limited understanding of the various evolving mysteries of our self, micro, macro, earthly and cosmic, I think BR is on to a powerful, useful, very understandable metaphor.

That’s what we need…....tools for important things that need communicated very soon. 

In no way can I see Man be considered to be Earths immune system.  And I’d not chasing down that particular metaphor should you elucidate because it diverts from the ‘social contract’ metaphor that BR549, if you treat him right, might flesh out. 

Love ya Brother, but you’re dragging me down. 

Oh, relating to the sky falling article….I did a small part to reduce CO2 emission from a varmit intent on eating from my CO2 sequestering vegetable garden.  I should have eat him, but I had other chores.

HokaHey!

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By TAO Walker, June 20, 2011 at 10:15 am Link to this comment

The run-amok “brain” analogy offered below by “BR549” in his limning of a
much larger, but still essentially metaphorical, ORGANic dysfunction in the
domesticated portion of Humankind, is certainly enticing.  It still misses the-
mark, though, and rather widely.

Humanity, as such, and despite the “self”-satisfying wide-spread CONceit to-
the CONtrary indulged-in by so many of our tame Sisters and Brothers, is
definitely NOT “The Brains” of Earth’s ‘outfit.’  We ARE, all together, a vital
component in Her immune system.

So ‘the case’ is even worse than “BR549” imagines.  It involves a component in
one ORGAN, the immune system, a component entirely unequipped to fulfill
effectively the brain function, attempting to usurp that mistakenly-supposed to
be supremely glamorous ‘job’ for its very own totally-not-up-to-it “self.” 

No wonder the entire virtual subspecies homo domesticus is presently
floundering-around so LOST! and all-alone in its “self”-made virtual world-o’-
hurt.  They’re trying to ‘think’ with their “egos”.  Their too-precious “self,”
however, can’t ‘solve’ “the problem.”  Their micro-“self” (tied inescapably to its
originating CONtrol-freak macro-“SELF”) IS The Problem.

Meanwhile, of course, The Never-ending Song ‘n’ Dance of Life Herownself,
‘out-here’ in Earth’s Living Arrangement, plays-on.

HokaHey!

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By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, June 20, 2011 at 9:31 am Link to this comment

You bring many good points, but I must pick and choose, apologies.

“In the body, each of our human cells has “surrendered” it’s feral functioning in order to perform a set of contractual obligations”

Please compare and contrast the ‘contractual obligations’ above with Locke & Rousseau?  Therein might lie a good way to communicate the importance and nature of the social contract with the common man. 

What about muscles that have fulfilled their end of the social contract for some years, and now, when a muscle cell is ready to retire, the damn brain just gets a transplant to renege on it’s end of the obligation?  Lousy example I’ve made, my minds on my work, but perhaps the metaphor can be evolved into something with memorability, understandability, repeatability, like a good strong meme.  Again, perhaps it;s the wrong forum, but if we are to attenuate the polluting, individual humans must become a bit more satisfied with their value as a part of the ‘body of humankind’.  Their rights and responsibility.  The ‘contract’.  If we don’t learn again how to state it, to disseminate it, to reinforce it, then what force guides our evolution in it’s place?  I think this is how these forums can help…..by finding the words we need to evolve.

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By BR549, June 20, 2011 at 9:13 am Link to this comment

John Best, June 20 at 7:19 am
“I think this is not just a battle about corruption in government, but what might be called a corruption of human nature, ” and .....

“..... we have to stop behaving like rats or some microbe which can’t help feasting on all available resources until it drowns in it’s own waste.  Restraint for the common good is not the dominant trait in our nature….....self preservation in the short term tends to win.”

In order for meditation to be successful, one must surrender their ego, that survival benefit for the mind. Similarly, with respect to the evolution of nations (and ultimately, mankind), the global population is similar to the cells in our bodies. They all have human DNA, but for reasons of preserving the energy of the entire being, each ethnic diversity has used it’s local environmental surroundings to adopt a more readily visible and understandable identity and a meaning for existence. So, the Turks see themselves as Turkish and stand firm in their cultural identity, etc. They are, for all practical purposes, a separate organ running a separate energy, not unlike what we see in TCM.

As much as these “globalist” pinheads think they can ramrod this New World Order Crap down our throats, the essence of mankind has not yet evolved to a spiritual level where our leaders are capable of surrendering their own egos. Therefore, their plan will never work. When and if we ever do evolve to that level, and those representing us realize the greater responsibility of their positions, then the populations of the world will be able to freely evolve with them and maybe someday, we might actually see a homogenized population. If we ever do, it will be because we evolved there as a race, not because the “brain cells” seemingly running the show forgot the relationship they had with the liver, lungs, and intestines and figuring that they can run the whole show. Indeed, what we have are that group of brain cells who somehow think their DNA is better than our DNA, to the point of attempting to manipulate theirs past ours; all in the same body.

In the body, each of our human cells has “surrendered” it’s feral functioning in order to perform a set of contractual obligations; i.e. a certain cell helps with digestion and the host body agrees to take care of all its nutritional and waste removal needs for life. Sounds like a plan. The problem comes in when the governing party reneges on the contract, leaving the second party to fend for themselves. Cells so abandoned will resort to earlier DNA survival patterns that will help ensure their individual survival, if even on the short term. We now see that as cancer and the same conditions exist both micro- and macroscopically; as above, so below. We are what we think, if even as a race, and as long as the brain is out of touch with the rest of the body ...... it’s gonna be one long evolution.

I digress.

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By BR549, June 20, 2011 at 8:32 am Link to this comment

John,
Personally, I found the Federalist Papers to be a elocutional tennis match. Volley here, volley there.

Our Constitution was the result of document and treaty massaging, starting in New England almost 100 years earlier. It didn’t just appear to them out of the blue or was the legitimate child of the Articles of Confederation, as most think. A shorter read for most people can be had with the Virginia and Kentucky Resolutions of 1798-9, for there is the then current day explanation of the forefathers’ intentions. We didn’t have to wait 200 some odd years for some self-appointed constructionist like Scalia to interpret the Constitution any way he sees fit. No, until our three branches have been able to evolve beyond the back-stabbing and corruption, the founding fathers intended for us to stick with the plan.

Again, we haven’t spiritually matured enough, as a nation and as a people, to step out of the confines of that original document. Technologically, yes, most certaily, but spiritually, not one bit, and it was the spiritual aspect of the Constitution that united us all, the idea of sovereignty. It isn’t that our documents are in any way flawed or outdated; we just having done our homework for 200 years and yet we still don’t understand why we didn’t graduate.

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By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, June 20, 2011 at 8:12 am Link to this comment

Duly noted TAO, you might be correct, or not.

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By TAO Walker, June 20, 2011 at 8:02 am Link to this comment

John Best and “BR549” both pin-point, immediately below, “corruption” of the
political process as what they feel, no-doubt sincerely, to the ‘seat’ of what ails
homo domesticus generally (and the befuddled masses of theamericanpeople,
in-particular) here in these latter Days.  Both seem to see this corruption as a
species of ‘moral’ failing, to be overcome by a kind of popularly-driven
revivalist restoration of righteousness to public affairs.

What if, however, the corruption is not merely abstract at-all, but rather an
actual organic CONdition indicative of a certain phase in a specific disease
‘process’?  In that ‘case,’ all the best will and noblest intentions and most
ethically upright political activity in the world won’t serve even to arrest, never-
mind reverse, the increasingly degenerative effects afflicting especially the
“we’re-all-special” domesticated peoples.  Neither will any ‘amount’ of (for one
example, Jeffersonian-type) philosophical sophistication accomplish anything
more than perhaps a little temporary relief from the psycho-emotional
‘suffering’ (among half-lived “self”-infectees)  coincident with the actual
physical deterioration so much in-evidence everywhere.  Thus Chris Hedges’
(maybe a bit over-dramatic) cry here that “The Sky Really Is Falling,” has a
certain ring-of-‘truth’ to it.

If what we’re ALL faced with here TOGETHER, however, is an actual specific
sickness, with all the kinds of institutionalized societal degradation (noted by
“BR549” and John Best and many of the participants here) as but one dimension
of its ‘symptomology’ presently besetting not just our tame Sisters and Brothers
but The Whole Living Arrangement of our Mother Earth, then what we really
need is an actually specific REMEDY.  Even more of the-‘hair’-of-the-“self”-
obsessed-‘gods’ trying to rip out our throats probably WILL (perhaps much
sooner than later) put homo domesticus at-least out of their own, and Her,
‘misery’....but there might be some “solution” that could prove to be at-least a
little less drastic.

Sometimes, despite “self”-serving wishful CONvictions to-the-CONtrary (as
‘voiced’ below by John Best), there really IS just one certain Way to cure a
specific illness.  There IS only The Medicine specific to that particular disease
‘vector’ and its debilitating ‘process.’

To heal US ALL, of the “SELF”-generated “civilization” disease, this Old Savage
prescribes The Living Virtue of Organic Functional Integrity, as ‘found’ naturally
in the Organic Form of Human Community….Natural Persons ORGANized to
fulfill the Organic Function of Humanity, within the Living Body of our Mother
Earth, as a vital component in Her natural immune system.

HokaHey!

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By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, June 20, 2011 at 7:19 am Link to this comment

BR,
Thanks for that ‘higher sense of purpose in our DNA’.  Perhaps it’s a three steps forward two steps back progress.  An ‘oozing’ prodded along by the general will and ability.

It is good you bring up the Enlightenment thinkers and their progeny for many reasons, one of which is the good intention (and successes) that are apparent, but there is another.  The founding fathers are god-like mythical figures who demand the respect of many of the ‘loyal non-thinking followers’ I mention in my last paragraph below.  There has been an enormous amount of propaganda in recent decades to detach the founding fathers from their liberal roots and the liberal enlightenment thinkers, both French and English. 

Those guys weren’t perfect, as the rightwing would have you believe, but they were damn good, and I think a re-reading of the Federalist papers is a useful thing.  Why re-invent the wheel.  The basic problems of influence, human nature, greed, corruption, etc are well discussed, as are mechanisms to attempt to make greedy interests compete in such a way as to attenuate their corrosion of ‘the common good’. 

This is why I propose public servants be severely limited from feathering their nests in any way better than the ‘average’, the common denominator.  They should be motivated to make the average better.  Perhaps this is mentioned in the Federalist papers, I don’t recall, but something TAO (despite his Old Indian obstinance (<: ) brings is this sensitivity to the ‘overall being’, which is very similar to the ‘common good’.  And, the motivation to enrich the ‘self’, at the expense of the common good is the root of most corruption, and I offer that it is an expression of the contempt and lack of confidence of current public servants have of the population. 

In any case, TAO highlights this damn ‘self’ disease, and should the public sector ever be disinfected, the ‘self disesase’ (hubris, extreme showiness, jealousy, all that 7 sins stuff) would re-infect the public sector from the private sector, so, I think this is not just a battle about corruption in government, but what might be called a corruption of human nature, or perhaps it might be called the amplification of our ugly DNA.

Whatever the case, we have to stop behaving like rats or some microbe which can’t help feasting on all available resources until it drowns in it’s own waste.  Restraint for the common good is not the dominant trait in our nature….....self preservation in the short term tends to win.

I wonder what of the coming Industrial revolutions and generally of degradation of the environment the founding fathers anticipated.  They did understand the tragedy of the commons and the only solution: gumint regulation.  Try selling that to the McPopulation.

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By BR549, June 20, 2011 at 6:32 am Link to this comment

John,
Somehow, I think that if Jefferson and Madison had managed to get as far as they did, there is still some hope for humanity. John Locke a hundred years earlier; same thing.

I dunno, there just seems to be some higher sense of purpose buried somewhere in our DNA, although the legislative maggots have continued to demonstrate to the US voting population just how slow evolution can sometimes be.

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By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, June 20, 2011 at 5:27 am Link to this comment

BR549,  You are right.  Corruption is the problem.  For various reasons, which I won’t go into now, I propose a long term effort might be made to re-define what a ‘public servant’ is. 

In no particular order, I’d propose:
1. A signed (legally binding) pledge to abstain from accepting 99% of the forms of hard and soft kickbacks they can currently get.  Friends, relatives and associates too. 
2. Vow of poverty: No retirement, medical or salary above what the general public gets from Social Security, Medicare, etc.  Same for ALL public employees, State, Municipal, Teachers, anyone who is paid from taxes. 
3. Agree to independent auditing (at random) of their bank accounts, and those of close associates and relatives by ‘watchdog groups’.

Might clever use of ideas, words, rhetorical tactics, etc, place the idea out there in the grass roots that an independent party could form this way?  Wishful thinking?  Could something like the Tea party have evolved in this manner had it a.) been designed on better footings, and b.) not been overrun by nut-cases under the care of the Koch brothers?  Perhaps that’s doubtful, but might a political party evolve along the lines of the Open Source community?  Might a new structure be devised which detects and corrects corruption?  A digital version of the checks and balances in the Constitution.  Knowing if a revolution gets started, that it won’t last forever, and eventually those who find it easier to corrupt the system will inevitably find a way to do so.  But, for now, can all those bright and well intentioned people like TAO and Cliff be signers of a new Declaration of Independence? 

But I think whatever happens, the ‘freedom’ to deceive, to bastardize language, to steal by deception, must be attenuated.  Tao and Cliff are right about the CON’s which are perpetrated, but I offer that there are many more subtle and insidious CONS which we have not come close to discussing.  I digress. 

Corruption is the problem, and, that so many accept it as unavoidable.  And there is a big group of people who absolutely follow their leaders, loyalty to the team, unable to see or understand corruption if it serves their team.  These people will never act rationally.  They must be manipulated.  Ugly word, manipulated.  Ends justify the means?  Ugly, distasteful stuff.  What good is a ‘moral high ground’ if it ends up being just a place for losers? 

I don’t know BR….........homo sapiens seems a shitty lot at times.

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By BR549, June 20, 2011 at 4:39 am Link to this comment

John,
Indeed, so many people are thinking that the only way out of this quagmire is to reform the Democratic Party. Well, that party at one time possessed some rather lofty and noble ideals. Then, the corruption set in.

The Republican Party, as I mentioned earlier, also possessed a set of noble ideals, then, the corruption set in. So, both of those parties, at present, are at best resting on their laurels from decades, even 200 years, past. There is no more hope in eliminating corruption in one party than the other. Not that corruption just appeared out of nowhere to consume our once proud nation; it was always there, but at least in the shadows enough to still run a nation.

When politicians realize why they have to get rid of their own perks in order to rekindle the public trust, then we might have a chance at throttling the corruption, but shy of that, no one believes them anymore when they pontificate about changing anything. At the very least, if they realize they can’t change anything, we should be hearing lofty TV and radio dialogues about why something that might have worked in the past is prevented from working now ... and importantly, which of those other members of Congress are stifling accordance with our Constitution. Point the bastards out and pillory them. But no, the good ole boy network is doing quite well and we aren’t likely to see any change from these former used car salesmen until we physically grab the bastards by the lapels and toss their asses down the front steps.

When the offices hold no perks that make them different from you and I, then maybe we could see some fresh faces on the floor of Congress and they might remember exactly WHY they were elected in the first place.

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By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, June 20, 2011 at 4:04 am Link to this comment

Yep, this is why the ‘the left’ will remain fragmented, tools to be used.  Our dispositions to be a little more independent, to think our way is the only way, or the preferred way, or even a realistic way…..it’s ‘self’-ish.

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By BR549, June 19, 2011 at 9:21 pm Link to this comment

....... Two really intelligent people, ..... both caring about the same issues, and
universes apart in their thinking about how to address it. Sigh.

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By TAO Walker, June 19, 2011 at 8:51 pm Link to this comment

If Cliff Carson really thinks he came anywhere near this Old Man’s “buns,” here in
cyber-space, he is suffering paranoid delusions not only of persecution (which has
been apparent for awhile now), but also of grandeur.  Even this virtual world-o’-
hurt doesn’t turn, however, on what gets Prof. Carson’s ‘goat.’  Besides, it’s one
thing for him to be “serious” about a given topic or issue….something different
entirely for him to be taking his vey own too-precious “self” so “seriously.”

With apologies to “BR549.”

HokaHey!

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By TAO Walker, June 19, 2011 at 8:33 pm Link to this comment

“BR549” is no-doubt sincere in his (if the “personal image” is gender-reflective)
wish to change the ‘focus’ of attention away-from the hyper-CONtroversial
“anthropogenic” aspects of the “climate change” issue, and to put it more on
those features of the “global” socio-eCONomic CONstruct which ‘enable’ a
relative handful of CONtrol-freaks among the sub-species homo domesticus
to, in-effect, have-their-way with everything and everybody ‘else.’  Yet he
notes that this wannabe “ruling class” has been doing its ‘thing’ for possibly
some thpusands of years already, while offering nothing really substantive
about addressing that CONdition to any mutually beneficial effect….other than
saying it has to stop.

This Indian agrees that obsessing over CO2, and even the many more-widely-
agreed-upon pollutants pouring into Air, Water, And Soil (and thence into flesh,
blood, and bone), will not get us any nearer to being able to respond to it all
with sufficient integrity and perseverance to actually begin to remedy the
illness.  Neither, however, will going-after that exploitative assemblage of
“individual”-ized idiots (and their hired hands in business, politics, religion,
journalism, and military) serving as two-legged tools for the “civilization”
disease process and its DEAD END ‘dominance’ paradigm.

Could be it’s NOT the stupid eCONomy, after-all.  So “the question” maybe
should be:  What might get us, ALL TOGETHER, on The Way to recovering
wholeness and health, as Persons and Peoples….and to doing our given part, as
Human Beings, in helping to restore to wholeness and health the Whole Living
Arrangement of our Mother Earth? 

It’s no secret to some here that this Old Savage suggests, as The Medicine
specific to what ails us, The Tiyoshpaye Way, The Way of Living Human
Community….The Tao of Humanity.

HokaHey!

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By Cliff Carson, June 19, 2011 at 7:59 pm Link to this comment

Yes, you are right TAO, I blew my composure when you baited me.  And I am not an Environmental Scientist and I said as much.  You asked for a statement without the numbers and I gave you that.  and you had to show your derriere.  And I am not a Doctor of Proctology either but I sure can identify an Ahole when I see one.

You meant to insult me and you know it, and you know I know it, kind of chaps your buns doesn’t it.

I got into speaking about Human Caused Global Warming seriously.  You didn’t join the conversation to be serious.  It shows.

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By BR549, June 19, 2011 at 2:53 pm Link to this comment

C’mon guys. There’s no doubt both of you care about this issue; otherwise, you wouldn’t still be here, but all that’s happening now is just posturing.

This has been an important issue for me since the ‘70s. Having begun in horticulture, I was really disappointed when I found that the entire focus of University based agriculture back then was to spray the living shit out of everything. I mean, the fact that plants made it through half a billion years worth of evolution without mankind’s “professional stewardship” must be just short a miracle. I wasn’t plugged in to the organic community back then so I changed careers.

Both of you are presenting very valid points yet continue to focus the discussion solely on the “A” part of the AGW. So much other information is coming to light about the relationships with solar, volcanic, meteorologic and other factors that it would be premature of anyone to suppose that man is “solely” the cause, although social managerial prudence would dictate that we should be adopting a more conservative energy posture.

We have an increasing pattern of wasteful use from literally hundreds, if not thousands, of years of taking an inordinate advantage of the environment to supply more per capita energy than our species, or any species, was due. We could say that that energy was what allowed us to step out of a strictly survival mode of existence to pursue more lofty ideals, but it took the availability of that energy to make that happen.

The absolute LAST thing this planet needed was to have the same opportunistic ruling class, which had been parasitically raking the gravy off this entire energy theft for millennia, continue with some new smoke and mirrors campaign; this time with Carbon Taxes. As long as people continue to point the fingers at each other, less fingers get pointed at those responsible; it’s the same ploy used against the American voters to keep them blaming each other for the sad state of affairs in this country.

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By TAO Walker, June 19, 2011 at 10:02 am Link to this comment

Professor (“emeritus”?) Cliff Carson (Now there’s a surname to CONjure-with in
“Navajo Land.”) is as un-“scientific” as he is mistaken, in his baseless
speculations about this Old Indian’s ‘schooling,’ motives, Life experience, and
Person-al monicker.  Whether a descendant or not of the infamous “Kit,” he
does certainly exhibit here the mean-streak for which that “one” was so well-
known among Native Peoples who had the misfortune of attracting his
jaundiced and greedy ‘eye.’  Leaving that aside, though, let’s review how we
‘arrived’ (virtually) at this not-so-pretty impasse. 

Back down this ‘thread’ a ways, this Indian (without taking-issue with any
opinion or assertion offered here by any of the participants) asked a simple
question (not addressed to anybody in particular), to-wit:  Have qualified
professionals looked-into the effects, on the day-to-day processes of the
atmosphere, of all the heat dumped into it daily by the “industrial”-ized
activities of the sub-species homo domesticus?

Prof. Carson, while admitting that it’s not his ‘field,’ nevertheless undertook to
weigh-in.  That he did so entirely on (and in) his own ‘terms,’ which devolved
into just another restatement of his arguments against the reputed ‘dangers’ of
CO2, in particular, and in-general countering claims by ‘others’ that all the
obsessively “self”-referential behavior of 7,000,000,000+ “energy”-dependent
domesticated Humans is in any significant way CONtributing to marked changes
in climate, weather, and undeniably massive alterations in even their own
already badly deteriorating “habitat” pretty-much all over Earth’s surface, was
of no (to use his own gratuitous and “self”-serving word) “help.”

He could’ve just said “yes” or “no,” so far as he knows or doesn’t, to the
question of whether there’s been any research done.  If “yes,” he could’ve
offered specifics.  He did neither, but instead cited a “wikipedia” article that,
upon close examination, also did not address the question directly at-all.  So
this Person asked the same question again in slightly different form.

That’s when Cliff Carson got-all “piss"y, and tried to cover-up his ignorance(?),
on the specific subject, with the ad hominem charge that it was Yours Truly
who was at-fault….apparently for not being sufficiently impressed by “....all the
recorded data in history (which as-such, after-all, is nothing but “recorded
data”).”  That’s also when he immaturely took so “person”-ally this Old Man’s
regular suggestion, in comments and observations here, that the “data” has (for
the most part….and especially lately) been CONscripted and CONfigured by
those with axes-to-grind and/or ‘points’-to-make (in the zero-sum ‘game’ of
I/ME/MY/MINE) in their monomanic pursuit of the ‘dominance’ paradigm’s
“brass ring”....perhaps not unlike Cliff Carson his own “self” (and f’r sure just
like the “self” of ol’ Uncle Kit).

This Old Savage isn’t meaning to “denigrate” (lit:  blacken) Cliff Carson, either. 
He might’ve (wisely?) eschewed the “self”-appointed ‘role’ of resident expert in
things “scientific,” and none of the foregoing unpleasantness would’ve….well,
foregone. 

“Maybe (he’s) too sensitive, or else (he’s) gettin’ soft.”....in the lyrical (para-)
phrasing of Bob Dylan.

HokaHey!

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By litlpeep, June 18, 2011 at 8:29 am Link to this comment

Thank you, Cliff,  but I restrain from identifying any characters, except when they seem to need at least some form of recognition, i. e., numerical, cultural, social, or some such.

But language is such a wily trickster, I hesitate to speak, until I find myself in that very catch you mentioned, blurting what cannot stay inside my head, or will not stop bouncing off the walls of whatever space I find myself inhabiting.

I obviously let that trickster prompt me into posing an arbitrary number too reductionist to be artful.

I also am inclined to point out here, this indiscretion is very similar to the one earlier identified with the official complicity, if not outright creation and cultivation of global warming.

In any event, however we identify the source(s) of
global warming, we mustn’t forget that to master our understanding of it, and our duplicity in and out of it, we need to remember the dangers of allowing the trickster to rob from us our better judgment at each and every step we take, including these postings.

I wish I could claim to live by what I preach, but, alas, I, too, have “sinned and fallen short.”

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By Cliff Carson, June 18, 2011 at 8:04 am Link to this comment

Thanks LilLPeep

“caught between shame, which causes one to be silent, and shamelessness, which encourages one to speak. “A kind of collective magic activates a shame threshold”

The Trickster would certainly enjoy this discourse.

How do you identify the characters?

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By litlpeep, June 18, 2011 at 7:22 am Link to this comment

Trickster Makes This World.

This is the title of a Lewis Hyde book.

Good luck to all three of you if you wish to inhabit
a warmer communing.

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By Cliff Carson, June 17, 2011 at 11:12 pm Link to this comment

TAO

Is that you MarthA?

What you need TAO is for your Granddaughter to explain to you what you profess not to know.

You could at the same time time tell her this other person of Indian Ancestry placed a link for you to look at but you were too stubborn to go there.

Heck maybe she can follow the link for you and explain it as you go.  It is pretty simple to follow.  If you want to follow it, that is.

Anyway get her to lead you there and she can explain it all to you.  Any High School Physics graduate can easily explain it. 

Why weren’t you able to get an education?  One of my family ancestors started the Indian School in Oklahoma.  I saw a statue of him at The Indian Museum in Anadarko.

Anyway let me say I didn’t intend to insult you or denigrate you, but you and I didn’t seem to be thinking in the same vein.  I see there was no way to help you.

I will leave you alone in the future.

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By TAO Walker, June 17, 2011 at 10:55 pm Link to this comment

There’s probably some clinical term for a tendency to see “insult” where none is
offered….to take “personally” what is not meant as such.  That the ‘tag-team’
(at least on this “issue”) of Cliff Carson and Ted Swart, however, seem to take
their “self” quite seriously, and so try to make observations about ambient
CONditions somehow all-about them, instead of the actual subject, maybe
indicates their joint (Or would it be mutual?) affliction with whatever that
CONdition might be called by appropriately credentialed professionals in
whatever specialized ‘field ’ that would be. 

Both have so far declined to address this Old Savage’s specific question….which
was NOT about (as Cliff Carson misstates pedantically below) “the daily heat
effect on the human body,” at-all.  Neither, as Ted Swart insists in needless
defense of his ‘partner’-in-I/ME/MY/Mine, was it about “global warming,” or
“climate change,” as such.  For a couple of “self”-IDentified papered
professional experts of the “scientific” persuasion, they seem oddly incapable of
grasping what seems to this Old Amateur to be a relatively simple notion which
used to be covered in high school physics classes….to-wit, the actual physical
behavior of gases when heated or cooled, whether naturally or by Human
artifice.

So here-goes again.  Earth’s atmosphere, “vast” as it may seem from the limited
perspective of your average “self”-absorbed “individual,” is actually a relatively
‘thin’ gaseous ‘membrane’ extending over Her entire surface.  Its volume is
calculable within generally tolerable (and useful) degrees of accuracy.  Under
pre-“industrial” conditions, the various constituent elements making-up this
membrane processed, in-their day-to-day ambient state (which would include
their volume), a given amount of heat (at-least theoretically measurable in
BTU’s) from various sources….some of them specifically incident to Human
activity.

It is plain to see today that the sheer ‘quantity’ of that heat-producing (or,
perhaps more accurately, heat-wasting) Human activity has increased quite
substantially…. as has the sheer ‘weight’ of homo domesticus, both, in-fact, by
several geometrically progressive orders-of-magnitude, and over a very ‘short’
period of ‘time,’ especially when compared to the generally much longer cycles
of heating and cooling cited by both of those gentlemen in arguing their own
‘case’ here.  So how, exactly, does all that manmade HEAT affect the day-to-
day dynamics of just the atmosphere (with its measurable properties, including
its volume) into which that ought-also-to-be-measurable (in BTU’s) manmade
heat is being exhausted?

This Indian’s GreatGrandaughter, who just finished her high school physics
class, has no difficulty at-all understanding exactly what is being asked
here….nor do those among our People familiar with the effects, on their in-
house atmosphere, of over-stoking the wood-stove, even during The Moon of
Popping Trees.

HokaHey!

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By Ted Swart, June 17, 2011 at 4:45 pm Link to this comment

By TAO Walker, June 17 at 2:22 pm

You say:

“This Indian, who took no issue whatsoever with all the “data” he relies so heavily on, will sure agree that Cliff Carson comes-off below as both a little thin-skinned and a little “self”-centric.  How about, instead of that tsunami of “facts,” he just gives us his own educated guess about the relative “impact” (on just the daily ‘dynamics’ of the atmosphere, as-such) of the have-to-be huge inputs of BTU’s added to its finite volume by all the fossil-fuelled and radioactively-enhanced and “self”-referential activities of 7,000,000,000+  . . . what about all the HEAT?”

Whether you like it ot not it is a little hard to follow what you are trying to say. You gratuitously throw in phrases like “self”-referential—which appear to have nothing to do with human generated heat output.  And, when Cliff Carson goes out of his way to respond to your expressed interest in the magnitude and effects of the heat we generate—from the burning of fossil fuels or what have you—you choose to denigrate him without any real reason for doing so.
I think you have done him and this forum a disservice by exhibiting the very things you have accused him of.

If I may say a small something about our heat generation, you need to know that there is a phenomenon known as “the urban heat island effect”. This refers to the fact the temperature readings in (or in close proximity to) cities tend to be higher than temperatures in the surrounding countryside. Relying on thermometers in urban areas is thus not exactly helpful when it comes to getting a good handle on changes in the Earth’s temperature as a whole over the course of time.
However, the magnitude of this effct on the Earth’s temperature as a whole appears to be small. This shows up in the graphs displayed in the Wikipedia article to which Cliff has referred us. It has not noticeably altered the long tern continuing cooling of the Earth—which has been going on for hundreds of thousands of years overlayed by ever more pronounced fluctuations of heating and cooling.
I can only suggest that you not only read but delve deeply into the article in Wikipedia and it may well prived a satisfactory answer to your quesions, .     


What about all that HEAT?

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By BR549, June 17, 2011 at 4:29 pm Link to this comment

Cliff and TAO,

This AGW issue pulls in a whole spectrum of responses from people. On one hand we have a perfectly valid argument about the near total lack of proper planetary stewardship being handled by our leaders. They found it lucrative enough to keep avoiding any proper management of the problem as long as the profits kept coming in, but as soon as the mismanagement panic alarms started going off in their little “lab experiment”, their solution was to panic and call for killing off the rat population; i.e. us. That was Gore’s camp. Just because sleazeballs like Gore had prior knowledge of the implementation of this Carbon Taxation plan and tried to financially posture
themselves to make a fortune at the expense of others in no way diminishes the need for the Earth’s population to start taking responsible measures in resource management, at home, on the road, or at work.

So, both your arguments are valid. We should be doing a lot more to decentralize our cities and get people back into a relationship with the soil, even if we didn’t have AGW. The fact that cheats and liars have chosen that venue as their next vehicle to assume global power doesn’t mean we should dump the whole argument altogether. It just makes common sense even if all the data isn’t in yet.

My two cents

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By Cliff Carson, June 17, 2011 at 3:12 pm Link to this comment

OK TAO

Maybe you just accidentally capitalized the three consecutive letters con anywhere the incidence was located in the comment where you responded.

In my thinking that was a smart-ass insult.

If you are really interested in the daily heat effect on the human body you should have read the link I provided.

It gives the range of average temperature departure from the average temperature today, from coldest to warmest.  If you want to find out what that is go to the link and find it.  It is in that article.

To convert from Degrees Centigrade to degrees Fahrenheit go find one of the conversion charts on the net, read the instructions, and use it.

That will end your need to insult me - maybe.

Yes I am very thin skinned, I can take a disagreement calmly but an attempted veiled insult opens up my pores in a hurry.

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By TAO Walker, June 17, 2011 at 2:22 pm Link to this comment

This Indian, who took no issue whatsoever with all the “data” he relies so
heavily on, will sure agree that Cliff Carson comes-off below as both a little
thin-skinned and a little “self”-centric.  How about, instead of that tsunami of
“facts,” he just gives us his own educated guess about the relative “impact” (on
just the daily ‘dynamics’ of the atmosphere, as-such) of the have-to-be huge
inputs of BTU’s added to its finite volume by all the fossil-fueled and
radioactively-enhanced and “self”-referential activities of 7,000,000,000+
industrial-ized domesticated Humans….every Day.

Forget “CO2,” for the moment.  This Old Savage hasn’t, until now, even
mentioned it in this discussion.

What about all that HEAT?     

HokaHey!

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By Gary Mont, June 17, 2011 at 1:44 pm Link to this comment

Just a note on purposely produced pollutants.

The intelligent species in North American has since the end of world war two, used chlorine or flourine to kill the germs in its drinking water. They do not remove the poisons chlorine and flourine from their drinking water after it kills the germs, but instead, drink the chlorine and flourine and the dead germs along with their drinking water. Intelligent species.

Has there been any studies anywhere to determine where all of this chlorine/flourine in our drinking water goes, both after we consume it by drinking it and after we dispose of it by flushing our toilets, watering out lawns filling our pools and washing our dishes, cars and selves?

Was it not chlorine/flourine that was originally touted as the cause of the ozone holes over the poles, in the form of flourocarbons or some such used as propellants in such things as hair sprays?

Every North American city poisons its drinking water with one of these two super toxins. None of them removes the poisons after killing the germs. All of their populations drink the poisoned water and all of them use the water for various things as listed above.

Is this enourmous source of chlorine/flourine ever taken into account as a source of atmospheric pollution??

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By Cliff Carson, June 17, 2011 at 11:13 am Link to this comment

Sorry I bothered you TAO.

I think I get the message:

Piss on all the recorded data in history, I don’t believe in it, therefore Cliff Carson is nothing but a CON.

That is my take away from your response.  Will you agree that I have understood you correctly?

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By Cliff Carson, June 17, 2011 at 11:01 am Link to this comment

Thank you John for pointing out some of the filth we pour into the atmosphere to breath.  And you BR549 for noting the natural absorption of CO2 from the air.

“Carbon dioxide is naturally captured from the atmosphere through biological, chemical or physical processes. Some anthropogenic sequestration techniques exploit these natural processes.”

Concerning CO2 natural absorption, Some what if’s:

What if we planted more trees
What if on the top of every building we planted gardens
What if we irrigated the Sahara and planted forests
What is we stopped slash and burn in the Amazon

Those things we can easily do, but would that end the Global warm-up?  Of course the answer is possibly but unlikely.

But this doesn’t address the real problem, the one mentioned by Best:  Pollution/Poisoning of out life sustaining Oxygen supply.  This is our greatest long range threat, and the GW people have drowned it out.

If TAO meant the hot air from Washington that really could be the most dangerous gases.

We should be environmentally friendly at every chance and we need to stop pointing at probably the least of our worries.

The sky really is falling and it has nothing to do with CO2.

I saw no reaction to the Apophis threat I mentioned.  Now here is a very real Earth Life Extinction Threat, the latest Russian studies have predicted a 1 in 400 possibility of Earth Impact.

- From the official Apophis Site: 

8 February 2011

Asteroid Apophis will come very close to earth in 2029 and possibly impact in the year 2036. That may seem like a long time from now, but it is just around the corner. Instead of worrying about 2012, start to worry that we don’t have a good program designed to track potential asteroid hazards. How many times do we hear about asteroids zooming very close to earth and we did not know that it was even coming? We know Asteroid Apophis is coming…but what are they not telling us?

Apophis will come within 18,000 miles from earth on Friday, April 13th, 2036. That amount of miles is actually very, very close and it will be visible to the naked eye. You thought Halley’s comet was the talk of the world in the 1980’s…just wait until this Asteroid Apophis comes knocking on our door.

Asteroid Apophis is 1,000 feet in diameter, which is about 90 stories tall and weighs 25 million tons. If this asteroid hits anywhere on earth it would be 68,000 times the force than the atomic bomb that destroyed Hiroshima.

If we start now, we might be able to destroy this Asteroid if it gets on a collision course with earth, but we seem to be too occupied with the possibility of Human Caused Global Warming.

If it does hit earth, none of us will have to worry about Global Warming, Human Caused or otherwise.  We could join the Dinosaurs.

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By TAO Walker, June 17, 2011 at 10:51 am Link to this comment

Cliff Carson’s plainly sincere stab, below, at responding-to this Old Man’s
question about possible effects, on day-to-day atmospheric processes, of all
the electro-mechanically produced heat from the present massive reliance, by
homo domesticus, on combustion-(and reaction-) intensive “technologies,”
being exhausted constantly into what is a finite ‘body’ of air, is appreciated.  In
his eagerness, however, to further prop-up his already amply declared
CONtention that the effects of domesticated Human behavior, on Earth’s overall
“body-temperature,” are insignificant, he really doesn’t address the specific
atmospheric issue,” at-all….except by possible implication in the noted wider
swings in the “highs” and “lows” of various kinds of weather ‘events.’

It could be, as it with so much other addictive behavior on the part of the
domesticated peoples, that having to face-up to even the “self”-proclaimed
“insignificant” aspects of it’s CONsequences is just too much of a threat to their
CONtinued slap-happily comfortable and cripplingly CONvenient use of all their
many drugs-of-choice (including degenerate “energy’).  So they CONtinue to
dive ever-deeper into “not a river in Egypt,” hoping vainly never to have to
suffer, their own too-precious “self,” that “worst-case-scenario” that becomes
daily more-and-more of a dead-certainty.

Those who will not even attempt to correct the “little” things, though, are sure-
as-hell dooming their “self” to de-CONstruction by the “Big One.”

HokaHey!

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, June 17, 2011 at 9:19 am Link to this comment

I agree with TAO that the gasses emanating from Washington are the biggest threat. I agree with Cliff that man made CO2 is not the primary cause of global warming, and that it does not matter, the next 50 chemicals in some order of priority, are of far greater concern than CO2 (neglecting that emanating from our Capitol)

ARSENIC, LEAD, MERCURY, VINYL CHLORIDE, POLYCHLORINATED BIPHENYLS, BENZENE, CADMIUM,
POLYCYCLIC AROMATIC HYDROCARBONS, BENZO(A)PYRENE, BENZO(B)FLUORANTHENE, CHLOROFORM, DDT, AROCLOR 1254, AROCLOR 1260, DIBENZO(A,H)ANTHRACENE, TRICHLOROETHYLENE, DIELDRIN, HEXAVALENT CHROMIUM, WHITE PHOSPHORUS, CHLORDANE, P&P’DDE, HEXACHLOROBUTADIENE, COAL TAR CREOSOTE, ALDRIN, P&P’-DDD, BENZIDINE, AROCLOR, CYANIDE, AROCLOR, AROCLOR, TOXAPHENE, GAMMA-HEXACHLOROCYCLOHEXANE,
TETRACHLOROETHYLENE, HEPTACHLOR, 1&2-DIBROMOETHANE, BETA-HEXACHLOROCYCLOHEXANE, ACROLEIN, DISULFOTON, BENZO(A)ANTHRACENE, 3&3?-DICHLOROBENZIDINE, ENDRIN, BERYLLIUM,  DELTA-HEXACHLOROCYCLOHEXANE, 1&2-DIBROMO-3-CHLOROPROPANE, PENTACHLOROPHENOL, HEPTACHLOR EPOXIDE, CARBON TETRACHLORIDE, AROCLOR, COBALT, O&P’-DDT, AROCLOR 1016, DI-N-BUTYL PHTHALATE

And this is a very, very, partial list.  homo-domesticus does not enjoy the self centered life by caring for his waste products with care.

HokaHey!

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By Cliff Carson, June 17, 2011 at 8:27 am Link to this comment

TAO Walker
To answer your question without the math:

The reconstructed (Reconstructed means best estimates based on all data available) temperature curves of Earth over the last couple of Billion years shows the Earth is progressively significantly cooler as time has progressed.  In other words the Earth’s over the ages temperature trend is cooling.

Looking at just the last five million years the trend continues, for example the “Hottest”  hot spells of the last million years are still colder than the “Coldest” Cold of five million years ago.

Noticeable is that up into the last million years the trend has been that the oscillations from cold to hot have yielded higher highs and lower lows.  In other words the fluctuations show a trend to more variance.
Looking at the last 800,000 years, the cycles of hot and cold continue with regularity right into modern day.  The highest hot over this period occurred about 120,000 years ago ( about 8 degrees Centigrade over the average for the period ) while in this 800,000 year time period the lowest low occurred about 20,000 years ago ( around 12 degrees below the average)  for the time period.

And since then the warm -up cycle has begun and is still going toward higher temperatures, in other words were are currently in a hot cycle.
Now within these periodic cycles there are mini cycles where there is a fluctuation between peaks of hot and cold.

When we see this behavior in Industry, and this type variation is common in everything in nature,  we call the fluctuations of the process “Process Variation” .  If it is OK with the reader, I will call this fluctuation of Earths temperature “Natural Fluctuation.

Everything I have written here in this comment can be verified just by going to the following Wikipedia link, read it and look at the graphs yourself.  You will see what I have been writing about.  And you will also see why I say that to ascribe the warming temperature of today to the output of human industry is pure hogwash.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperature_record

Let me be clear that Human activity does contribute ,  but my point is that the contribution of humanity is minuscule to the grand scheme of mother nature.

TAO Walker, did I satisfy your question?

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By PD, June 17, 2011 at 12:38 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I just got a job in MT’s only active independent saw mill(assuming i just past the nations’ most stringent whiz quiz).  Nobody here likes reality; read “conservatism” in this article.  Ill try though.  I’d love to start the new economy in northwest Montana’s newest rainforest.  But unless your here you don’t know what’s queer.  Gimme a hand please.  Labor activism doesn’t carry the same ‘prestige’ that it used to.  Is this is a job for a midwife dedicated to life to carry out?

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By TAO Walker, June 16, 2011 at 10:02 pm Link to this comment

Okay, let’s try another ‘approach.’  What would’ve been the (estimated) generally
prevalent heat ‘content’ of Earth’s atmosphere (say in BTU’s) on any given Day,
absent whatever amount is being generated by all of the industrial-strength
activity of of the subspecies homo domesticus?  What, then, would be the likely
effects, on this “pre-industrial” atmosphere, of adding to its “average” ambient
heat content all of the BTU’s being exhausted into it, on any given present Day, by
the electro-mechanically enhanced activity (of all kinds) indulged-in by the
estimated 7,000,000,000+ constituents of the “individual”-ized subspecies homo
domesticus?

No need to “show the math.”

HokaHey!

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By BR549, June 16, 2011 at 9:00 pm Link to this comment

Tao,

Along the line of the heat you mentioned, expand that model to include all of
the following:

1. Fuels like switchgrass which have a semiannual carbon sequestration cycle

2. Trees with carbon sequestration cycles from roughly 1 - 100 years

3. Oil that sequestered carbon from 150-180 million years ago

4. Coal that sequestered carbon from 286 - 360 million years ago

5. Methane hydrate which has been forming ever since microscopic critters have been around. This has the potential of being one of the worst sources of heat released, so if the oil companies ever get tapped into this before developing any discipline, we will be in trouble.

    .... and lastly,

6. Nuclear energy that sequestered energy from 4.5 billion years ago

Looking at the heat issue alone, it is clear to see how we are dumping all this stored heat into the atmosphere ALL AT ONCE, when our atmosphere has really only proven capable of maintaining itself over the long term through 1 & 2 plus some occasional volcanic activity. All of the carbon sequestration has taken place during our third and current atmosphere.

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By Cliff Carson, June 16, 2011 at 8:26 pm Link to this comment

TAO Walker

This Indian?  I have Cherokee Ancestry - yours?

Actually TAO Walker there have been many Scientific studies about the energy ( Heat) both reaching the surface of Earth,heat radiating away from earth, radiated heat being reflected back onto the surface of the earth, heat being pumped into the atmosphere by industry, and a myriad of other interesting studies concerning heat and its sources.  And these all are pertinent to Earth’s Climate.

But I’m not sure what you are asking so try posing your inquiry differently and if I can answer I surely will.

I assume papered means Degree in Some Environmental Science. 

My MS is in Engineering.  I am not a papered Environmental Scientist.  As to whether that disqualifies me having a learned opinion about Human Caused Global Warming you will have to judge me by what I have posted on here.

I am confident I know the subject very well.

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By TAO Walker, June 16, 2011 at 7:59 pm Link to this comment

This Indian’s question wasn’t about the particular chemical signatures of all the
hot gases spewing constantly, from what is exclusively Human activity, into the
finite volume of the atmosphere.  It was about possible effects of the immense
‘quantity’ of the heat itself, which is being dumped pretty-much every minute of
every Day….and has probably been increasing substantially, as well, with more-
and-more fuel-burning and other types of heat ‘wasting’ devices being cranked-
up and brought ‘on-line’ all the time.   

Has this even been examined in any systematic way by the appropriate papered
professional experts?

HokaHey!

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By Cliff Carson, June 16, 2011 at 5:50 pm Link to this comment

Very true Ted Swart

There would be a number of variables at play and those variables would cause various interactions.  When the conditions line up to cause “Harmonic Resonance” those variables then have created the Perfect Storm.

I didn’t mean to leave the impression that any single event ( Wobble) would necessarily cause an Ice Age or a Warm up.

It’s kind of like a spinning top; it will continue to right itself when disturbed by external forces, but when those forces come at the right magnitude at the lowest stability of the wobble - unusual things can happen.

What I see of our current warm-up is a natural occurrence.  Now in 2012…..  or say if in 2037 Apopsis wobbles slightly out of its orbit (already the odds of it hitting earth is 1 in 6250), much more likely than you getting struck by lightning….

Well if humanity survives no one will be thinking about Human caused Global Warming.

The worry then will be “How can I survive?”

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By Ted Swart, June 16, 2011 at 5:19 pm Link to this comment

By Cliff Carson, June 16 at 2:51 pm

“Well actually what was discovered was that those ‘wobbles’ which I mentioned as permutations earlier in this thread do in fact cause climate change, enough to bring the Earth out of Ice Ages - and help send the Earth into Ice Ages. . . . .
. . . . . .
I believe in stating what I perceive as ‘truth’.  That is why I sincerely believe that the Human Caused Global Warming theory is quackery.  I don’t care that eminent Scientists may say it is real, the evidence I see says otherwise.
. . . . . .
I say that the Earth is always in a warm-up or cool down cycle and has been since its inception.
. . . . . .
The truth is unchangeable, spin is never the truth, and the only other outcome is an honest misinterpretation of the data, which will return the honest to the truth.”

As always a quality contribution Cliff. However, I think that you may have left some readers with the impression that the changes in the Earth’s ‘wobble’ are sufficient to account for the trends into and out of ice ages. The truth is that the change into and out of ice ages is caused by a combination of different factors—all perfectly natural and not human caused.
The latest breaking news is that three scientists (actual scientists not phony ones), using three independent approaches, have come to the conclusion that the current (24th) sunspot cycle will have a much lower maximum than usual. Moreover, their projections show that the 25th cycle is likely to be largely devoid of sun spots.
We do not yet know the full implications of these results but what we do know is that the Maundley sunspot minimum—which lasted for about 70 years—occurred right in the middle of the last mini ice age.
So it seems clear that the Earth’s ‘wobble’, unusually low sunspot frequencies and several other factors all contribute to the occurrence of ice ages—with the ‘wobble’ being an important factor.
Best.

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By BR549, June 16, 2011 at 4:10 pm Link to this comment

Tao,
Just a few loose thoughts on the topic; the government has now admitted that it has been spraying aluminum and barium salts in the atmosphere for well over a decade. If these salts are supposed to reflect sunlight back out to space, what part of their thinking would dismiss the reflection of infrared that would normally be reflecting back out to space, back toward the Earth, actually accelerating the warming process? An Ohio State University study has found that the reflectance of atmospheric aluminum decreases with increasing frequency, which would tend to confirm that lower frequencies, such as infrared, may actually be forced back down to Earth even more than what our greenhouse effect would be doing naturally. What’s your take on it?
See: http://www.phys.ufl.edu/~tanner/PDFS/Yam78aip.pdf

So, if these globalist stooges understood this beforehand, it would seem to imply that there was an intention in warming up the planet even faster. If they hadn’t accounted for it before they started, shame on them for sloppy science.

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By Cliff Carson, June 16, 2011 at 4:02 pm Link to this comment

Yes TAO Walker, you would be right about gobs of sources pouring filth into the atmosphere.

And all those Man-Made sources amount to about 6.5 Billion Tons of CO2 per year into the atmosphere.

So what you have said is true.  But there is something else also a truth to consider:

That amount of CO2 amounts to about 3% of the annual NATURAL amount of CO2 added to the atmosphere each year.

And the total amount of CO2 in the Earth’s atmosphere is 390 parts per million or 390 /1,000,000 = .039% or think of it as 4 cents of $1,000 dollars.  In other words not a whole lot.

And if you do much reading ultimately you will find that the amount of increase last year ( from all sources - man made and non-man made) was 1.9 parts per million or 1.9/1,000,000 = .00019% or the equivalent of 2 cents for each $10,000.

Once you see it in perspective it is not so scary.

I only report the facts.  My only speculation is that the facts don’t reveal HCGW to be a real threat.

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By TAO Walker, June 16, 2011 at 3:38 pm Link to this comment

So all atmospheric phenomena are entirely heat-driven processes.  At any given
moment there must be at-least several hundred million man-made-and-
operated ‘point-sources’ pumping at-least billions of BTU’s-worth of hot gases
into a ‘vessel’ of limited volume.  This doesn’t even include the CONstant
outpourings of fulminating politicians, TV talking-heads, cheering (or booing)
crowds, screaming parents, lecturing pedants, and sermonizing preachers of
various persuasions….to mention just a few such indisputably and exclusively
human “causes.”

Would any of those here who profess to being “scientifically” bent care to
venture some informed speculation about the effects of all that (often super-
heated) ‘air’ swirling-around their world?

HokaHey!

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