“Be vewy, vewy quiet! I’m looking for any signs of tolewant, open-minded, ‘Pogwessives.”

Next I expect:

“Be vewy, vewy quiet! I’m hunting wabbits”

You’re dethpicable!

It’s a Mosque.

GRYM:
So…if you wanna be Daffy Duck, you gotta say it right:

“You’re dethpicable!”

Loony tunes = Right-wing-nuts.

ITW,

Despicable.

-

Post script: You seem so easily lead around by the nose by media elites.

As you know I agree the Mosque should be built in that particular location, however, you are terribly mislead about Islam.  According to Islam, if there is a mosque on location it’s a mosque first and everything else is secondary.  In other words; in Islam everything revolves around the mosque.

Demanding this new project to be a “community center” is a form of minimalism for political advantage.  There is no need to turn away from reality in order to support the Mosque.

Steven, August 23 at 6:12 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“Straightforward and simple: It’s your hate.  Your intolerance getting in the way.  You too are simply not listening to the real world.  Real people.  Real victims.  Real First responders.  69% of New Yorkers.  Most of their collective problems with this Mosque are legitimate.
**********************************

You sound just like GRYM. Even the same language and arguments.

I have yet to see ONE legitimate problem with this Islamic Community Center (It’s not a mosque—it will contain one. See? You are sounding just like GRYM, spouting repeatedly the same lies the Right-Wing-Nuts are spreading.)

Next you’ll tell us it’s mimicking the WTC (though it’s only 13 stories and the WTC was 110).

Just like GRYM.

Go Right Young Man, August 22 at 11:57 am Link to this comment

How low, how small, are you willing allow yourself to be?  Is there no limit?
************************

Keep repeating the “Lie”

Are you at 100x yet? Or 1000x?

I have no trouble living with myself.  But I don’t know how you can look in a mirror.

Despicable.

How low, how small, are you willing allow yourself to be?  Is there no limit?

I take it then Inherit_The_Wind

You will not be voting Democrat again, good! ! ! !

Go Right Young Man, August 22 at 8:38 am Link to this comment

Lose the hate.
*************************

Classic neo-con tactic.  Keep repeating the lie, again and again. 
If refuted 10 times, repeat it 20 times.
If refuted 20 times, repeat it 100 times.
If refuted 100 times, repeat it 1000 times.

Never back down, never concede.

NEVER ADMIT THAT THE LIE IS A LIE!

I’ll never lose my hatred for liars who seek to turn America into a fascist state, and use every deceptive tactic to do so.

Despicable the low lengths you’ll reach for. 

-

You’re arguing with a characterization of a Neo-Con phantom you’ve created.  You’ve even given this apparition a name.

Lose the hate.

GRYM:

And dodge the question again—something you are really good at.

I have nothing to apologize for. I have NO idea where you get the idea that I’m over some sort of line.

Meanwhile, yet again you play the politics of people’s pain about 9/11 WITHOUT actually showing that it’s anything actually real to you.  Like Palin, a gazillion miles away, you wave the bloody flag of 9/11 without ANY indication that it actually means anything to you, other than some conceptual attack on that crazy lib city that’s at the very eastern edge, not in the heart of “real America”...it’s “Far, Far Away”.  That’s good for attacking Eastern Liberals for being soft on terrorism.

The point is: 9/11 happened to us, the people of the North East. The Liberal, Blue, Kennedy-Kerry-Dodd-Clinton-Menendez-Schumer Eastern Libs that the people you celebrate are actually talking about seceding from!

You are part of the hideous effort to separate the heart of “liberal land” from the 9/11 attack to support the position that Liberal are “soft” and don’t get the threat of “Islamofascism”.

I’m here to tell you that’s a load of CRAP and, by PERSONAL experience can show that we, the Libs of this region “get” the attack of 9/11 far better than the GOP drum-beaters and flag-wavers like yourself.

It’s as low as getting in Cindy Sheehan’s face or the Tilman family’s face and telling them they are “disloyal” or traitors.

Talk about crossing a line of decency.  How DARE reactionary Republicans try to usurp the attack on the WTC from the REAL victims!

You also need to stop switching your story from pro- to anti-mosque.  You say “build it” and then defend every son of a bitch who wants to prevent it.

Classic.

ITW,- “Do you know anyone who died on 9/11?”

That’s now the second time you have leaped over the line of common human decency.  How you can sit comfortably with yourself and assume all you do.  You have no idea. 

You dare to measure your pain against another.  You then go so far as to compare your pain to justify a political or tactical judgment.  Despicable.

I remain unchanged on this issue.  The Mosque should be built.

Lose the hate.  It brings out the worst in people.

ITW—Well said.  I was there and personally witnessed the attacks. I am really sick of people trying to exploit this disaster for political gain.  But I was sick of that by September 12, 2001.  The beat goes on.  At least the latest circus has exposed Gingrich, Palin, Giuliani, Lazio, Reid, Dean and the rest for what they are, if anyone didn’t know already.

Straightforward and simple: It’s your hate.  Your intolerance getting in the way.  You too are simply not listening to the real world.  Real people.  Real victims.  Real First responders.  69% of New Yorkers.  Most of their collective problems with this Mosque are legitimate.
**********************

Do you know anyone who died on 9/11?  Do you know anyone who knew people who died on 9/11?  Do you know any first responders? Do you know any of the thousands of construction workers who volunteered in those first days?

Our live in sitter lost two friends. A kid in my son’s elementary school lost his father. A kid in my son’s class was lucky his father survived, the worse for wear. The President of our small company lost his best friend. Another employee lost his best friend. A bank teller showed me a picture of her cousin asking tearfully if I had seen him. A long-time friend lost four friends at the Pentagon.  His partner lost two friends there. The owner of our dojo lost 27 employees.  My oldest friend was across the street when the first plane hit. He saw the second hit over his head and saw body parts falling on the street. Another friend left his construction job and immediately headed down-town.

I live 25 miles away from Ground Zero and EVERYONE I know either lost someone that day or knows someone who lost someone that day.

So you can sit and spout your Glenn Beck/Sarah Palin/Newt Gingrich crap all day, but none of THEM live close or knew so many people hurt.

And you’ve just reversed yourself from saying YOU support the building of this mosque (Excuse me—Community Center!)

Why am I not even mildly surprised?

Chutzpah

YES!

And you seem not to have an inkling that I hold the opinion of 92.75% of all Americans.  The majority believe in and daily practice religious, gender, racial and socioeconomic tolerance.  Evidence of it is everywhere!  On every beach, grocery store, plumbers union, board room and church.  Unfortunately there will always be that rough 7%-20% who will fail to learn and grow.

-There are eight Mosques on Manhattan Island and next to no one is upset or put-off by them.  Intolerance is obviously not the issue.

-According to the latest Time Magazine report more than 80% of Americans would easily support a Muslim Supreme Court Justice. In fact the ONLY situation less than 62% (still the majority) of Americans would not like to see is a Mosque near their homes.  In all other respects Americans are more than comfortable with Arab or Muslim Americans.

Straightforward and simple: It’s your hate.  Your intolerance getting in the way.  You too are simply not listening to the real world.  Real people.  Real victims.  Real First responders.  69% of New Yorkers.  Most of their collective problems with this Mosque are legitimate.  Even the irrational amongst us such a short time after Sept. 11, is understandable.

What happened after Iran held Americans hostage for 444 days?  American attitudes toward Iranians fell into a whole.  And it has steadily raised ever since.  And it’s wasn’t about Muslims or Persians either.  Right or wrong it was about Iran.

-

So the majority disagree with me on this particular issue.  So what?  I certainly don’t need to make them into evil phantoms and goblins.  Or, as you seem to also believe, a great deal less intelligent than you are.

I will remain here speaking for people who don’t have their entire focus on idiots in the media.  That world is not real, my friend.  You need to begin understanding that this Web space, TruthDig, represents the fringe of the Left.  You are a very small minority in the United States.

Oh it’s ALL about religious intolerance:

Jews and Christians did not murder over 3000 human beings on Sept 11, in the name of their religious faith.  That is a distinction you yourself have made, however, you appear to easily dismiss the fact to keep to your point.

*******

You forget that Christians murdered 165 people in Oklahoma City.

Then you say:

************************
I believe over 3000 people died in the name of Islam on Sept 11, 2001. 
***********************************

Did they? Or did they die because of a small group of vicious extremists who twisted the Muslim religion PRESUMED what they are doing was in the name of Islam.

Just like McVeigh, Nichols and Rudolph PRESUMED the terrorist murders were in the name of Christianity.

Yet we aren’t condemning all Christianity as poisoned because of it.

*******
It’s not about religious intolerance.
*******

Jabberwocky all over again.  How you can write that and possibly believe it, or, more seriously, think you can foist such obvious CRAP on the rest of us?

You can’t just re-define words to fit your political agenda.  And the GALL to think you can do that and people will just accept your re-definitions without question….Here’s ONE word you define, GRYM: Chutzpah!

Well, I don’t see anything in what I wrote about Americans being good or bad.  You put that in.  You can’t expect me to explain stuff you make up.

Anarcissie, - “Of course the Park 51 ‘mosque’ issue is not about Islam or Muslims.  It’s about us, the Americans—who we are and what we believe in and what we are willing to do about our professed beliefs.”

-

FINALLY your personal agenda driving this and every issue I have ever seen you opine on. You don’t like Americans or American culture.  Fair enough, however, why not simply state it up-front?

First it was all “those republicans” and their intolerance. And then it wasn’t.  Then it was “those few” republicans.  Then it wasn’t.

First it was all about Islam. And now it’s not about Islam.

Your issue is not the Mosque at all.  You could care less about Muslims or a Mosque.  First and foremost America is bad.  As far as I can tell that is your position on everything.

Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.

Of course the Park 51 ‘mosque’ issue is not about Islam or Muslims.  It’s about us, the Americans—who we are and what we believe in and what we are willing to do about our professed beliefs.

Al-Arabiya Director: “The Majority of Muslims Do Not Want or Need a Mosque Near Ground Zero”

In an August 16, 2010 column in the London daily Al-Sharq Al-Awsat

“Muslims do not [really] yearn [to build] a mosque near the 9/11 cemetery, nor do they care whether bin Laden’s cook is tried in a civilian court [or a military one]. Muslims are concerned about issues that involve the destinies of [entire] peoples… such as the establishment of the Palestinian state. If Obama focuses his energy and efforts on fighting for peace in the Middle East, this will be [far] more important and valuable than [his stance in favor of] the New York mosque…

“The [Ground Zero] mosque… is a strange affair, because it is not an issue [that concerns] the Muslims. [In fact,] we never even heard of it until it became the focus of vociferous arguments between supporters and objectors, most of them non-Muslim Americans!...

“The Muslims never asked for this [mosque], and even the angry Muslims do not want it. This is one of the few times when the two opposing sides are in agreement. Nevertheless, the dispute flared up. It made the front pages of newspapers and [featured on] the major television programs. Demonstrations were held in the streets, and large posters were plastered on New York buses, demanding that the construction of the mosque be prevented and reminding everyone of the 9/11 crime. This really is a strange battle!

“I can’t imagine that Muslims [actually] want a mosque at this particular location, because it will become an arena for the promoters of hatred, and a monument to those who committed the crime. Moreover, there are no practicing Muslims in the area who need a place to worship, because it is a commercial district. Is there anyone who is [really] eager [to build] this mosque?...

“Those pushing to build this mosque may be construction companies, architect firms, or political groups who want to exploit this issue. The individual who submitted the building application – I do not know whether he [really] wants [to build] a mosque that will promote reconciliation, or whether he is [just] an investor looking for quick profits. Because the idea of a mosque right next to a site of destruction is not at all an intelligent one. The last thing Muslims want today is to build a religious center that provokes others, or a symbolic mosque that people will visit as a [kind of] museum next to a cemetery.

“What the citizens of the U.S. fail to understand is that the battle against the 9/11 terrorists is not their battle. It is a Muslim battle – one whose flames are still raging in more than 20 Muslim countries… I do not think that the majority of Muslims want to build a monument or a place of worship that tomorrow may become a source of pride for the terrorists and their Muslim followers, nor do they want a mosque that will become a shrine for the haters of Islam… This has already started to happen: [the Islamophobes] are claiming that a mosque is being built over the corpses of 3,000 U.S. citizens who were buried alive by people chanting ‘Allah akbar’ – the same call that will be heard from the mosque…”

Anarcissie, - “GRYM—So you attribute the alleged views of one Muslim extremist group, consisting possibly of a few hundred people, to all one billion Muslims, regardless of what they say or do?”

-

I’m sorry but I cannot do this with you any longer.  You simply do not understand what it is to truly listen.  And it is not a single Muslim group.  It’s several dozen groups in over 60 nations.

You’re talking in circles. 

You cannot change the fact that those who planned and murdered over 3000 human beings on Sept. 11, did so in the name of Islam. It’s what THEY claim.  Not me.

With that said: That has very little to do with 1.5 billion peaceful Muslims across the globe.  There are very few people, including Muslims, making the claims you do (wide-spread Islamo-phobia). You are simply not listening.

I remain glad that you have “backtracked” on your previous written statements condemning all republicans for the actions or words of a small few.

GRYM—So you attribute the alleged views of one Muslim extremist group, consisting possibly of a few hundred people, to all one billion Muslims, regardless of what they say or do?

Anarcissie,  “I’m not condemning all Republicans”.

-

That’s interesting.

“]The Republican Party appears to have completely lost its moral compass.  I believe they are going to find out that in the long run bigotry is not as advantageous to them as they thought.”

“I would have agreed with you until this ‘Ground Zero Mosque’ circus started up.  All the evidence I’ve seen has been that it was a Republican thing; granted, cowardly, disgraceful von Papen types from the Democratic Party are now shuffling on board.  However, the leading thugs, Gingrich, Palin, Lazio, Paladino, Giuliani, are all Republicans.”

I’m glad you’ve backed off of your prior written statements condemning all republicans for the actions or words of a few.

-

Jews and Christians did not murder over 3000 human beings on Sept 11, in the name of their religious faith.

“Neither did ‘Muslims.”

YES.  We certainly, profoundly, disagree. I hope you’ll understand that I can no longer take you seriously.

I have listened to the declarations of several of the hijackers before their attack.  I have listened, intently, to Zawahiri, Rahman, Nosair, Nassar and Mullah Omar.  That is precisely what each have stated almost countless times. In the name of Allah and Islam the U.S. was attacked. 

You’re not truly listening.

Go Right Young Man, August 20:

‘Anarcissie,

Obviously we profoundly disagree.

Jews and Christians did not murder over 3000 human beings on Sept 11, in the name of their religious faith. ...’

Neither did ‘Muslims’.  I’d say your bigotry was showing but maybe you’ve just been overly influenced by the poisonous atmosphere of the present circus.

I don’t think your views are coherent enough for us to profoundly disagree.  You say that not tolerating a religion isn’t religious intolerance.  I don’t know where to go from there.  It’s a kind of annihilation of thought and language.

I’ve been mentioning specific Republicans because they have been the most out in front and virulent in pushing and lying about this issue.  I’m not condemning all Republicans, because there are honorable exceptions.  And as people begin to learn the facts and think about the controversy, I believe we’re going to see a lot of backpedaling.  Giuliani and Gingrich, though, may be out on a limb they can’t climb off on this one.

Anarcissie,

Obviously we profoundly disagree.

Jews and Christians did not murder over 3000 human beings on Sept 11, in the name of their religious faith.  That is a distinction you yourself have made, however, you appear to easily dismiss the fact to keep to your point.

It’s not about religious intolerance.

-

It’s interesting that most everyone on this particular Web space have condemned all state militias as violent for the actions of Timothy McVeigh. But today we’re being told how wrong it is to do that.

It’s also interesting that you keep mentioning Gingrich and Giuliani, condemning ALL “republicans”, when you are well aware by now that dozens of liberal-minded individuals have come out against the Mosque being built in that particular location.  According to the latest ‘Time’ poll upwards of 70% of ALL AMERICANS are opposed to the idea.

You are not listening. It appears to me that you’re adamantly choosing sides based on your political beliefs.

Go Right Young Man, August 20 at 10:46 am:

‘Anarcissie, - “Are you seriously suggesting that the religion of the people involved in Park 51 (the ‘Ground Zero Mosque’) is irrelevant to the issue we’re discussing?”

Still, you are not even trying to hear me.  I have in no way come close to suggesting that the an Islamic Mosque in that location is not the issue.  It is precisely the issue.

We disagree on this issue being entirely wrapped in religious intolerance.  There are eight Mosques in Manhattan which are not being made an issue of.  Religious intolerance?  I think not. ...’

A Christian institution on the Park 51 site would be tolerated—not even noticed.  A Jewish institution on the Park 51 site would be tolerated.  But Gingrich, Giuliani, etc., want a Muslim institution on the site to be not tolerated, because the people involved are Muslims, adherents of a particular religion.  I call this religious intolerance; maybe you call it something else.

I don’t doubt that the effects of 9/11 profoundly affected many of the survivors, especially because I was there—in fact, if I hadn’t been late for work that day, I might well have been killed, since my job was just two buildings away from the World Trade Center.  It didn’t turn me into an Islamophobe—there are crazy bastards in every population group, as witness Timothy McVeigh—but it might have affected some people that way, especially if they don’t know any Muslims personally and they’re being egged on by unprincipled thugs like Giuliani and Gingrich.  But regardless of their experiences, if they’re willing to tolerate Christians and Jews in a certain place, and not Muslims, they’re advocating and practicing religious intolerance.  It’s very sad, but that’s what it’s called and that’s what it is.

Anarcissie, - “Are you seriously suggesting that the religion of the people involved in Park 51 (the ‘Ground Zero Mosque’) is irrelevant to the issue we’re discussing?”

-

Still, you are not even trying to hear me.  I have in no way come close to suggesting that the an Islamic Mosque in that location is not the issue.  It is precisely the issue.

We disagree on this issue being entirely wrapped in religious intolerance.  There are eight Mosques in Manhattan which are not being made an issue of.  Religious intolerance?  I think not.

-

I can repeat myself in hopes that you hear MY point of view.  It would help if you simply attempt to view what I write without washing it through YOUR beliefs?  You’re not hearing me at all.  Which tells me you’re not listening to anyone on this issue.

I believe over 3000 people died in the name of Islam on Sept 11, 2001.  Still a short time ago. I believe human beings are understandably reluctant to open their arms as they so clearly had pre 9/11.  I see no surprise in this.

I fully understand that some are concerned that this NEW MUSLIM ICON, so close to, what most believe to be, hallowed ground will be used as an icon of victory to those who murdered over 3000 human beings.  In fact I am certain that is precisely what will happen.  I just happen to believe the positives outweigh the negatives.

I am also concerned for the surviving victims and first responders.  Their pain is legitimate.  I can easily empathize with, what has got to be, excruciating emotions on this issue.  I will take no part in belittling or dismissing their well founded emotions.

-

YES, the issue is about an Islamic Center being built so close to ground zero.  No, it is not about American religious intolerance. It’s about the murder of over 3000 human beings in a single morning on Sept. 11 2001.

I need to stress this one more time.  You are not even trying to hear others on this issue.

Go Right Young Man, August 20 at 8:35 am:

‘Anarcissie, - “GRYM—Gingrich, Giuliani, Lazio and Paladino, and many others, have repeatedly suggested that government should intervene to prevent ‘Park 51’ from being developed by Muslims because they are Muslims.  Are you saying they are not proposing government discrimination against Muslims?  How do you explain their proposals as anything else?”

You’ll have to show me how all of the above, and more, are against this Mosque being developed “by Muslims because they are Muslims”.’

Are you seriously suggesting that the religion of the people involved in Park 51 (the ‘Ground Zero Mosque’) is irrelevant to the issue we’re discussing?  If so, what do you think the controversy is about?

Anarcissie, - “GRYM—Gingrich, Giuliani, Lazio and Paladino, and many others, have repeatedly suggested that government should intervene to prevent ‘Park 51’ from being developed by Muslims because they are Muslims.  Are you saying they are not proposing government discrimination against Muslims?  How do you explain their proposals as anything else?”

-

You’ll have to show me how all of the above, and more, are against this Mosque being developed “by Muslims because they are Muslims”.

I am in favor of a Mosque in that location, however, “by Muslims because they are Muslim” is not a sentiment I have heard from anyone. - To be fair I have heard several proponents characterize (or mis-characterize) the issue in exactly that manner.

Flip a coin….works real good…

  Or how about a community food garden.

  Never mind,  it is much more sexy to talk about
  Giuliani vs Bloomfield

GRYM—Gingrich, Giuliani, Lazio and Paladino, and many others, have repeatedly suggested that government should intervene to prevent ‘Park 51’ from being developed by Muslims because they are Muslims.  Are you saying they are not proposing government discrimination against Muslims?  How do you explain their proposals as anything else?

Anarcissie, - “So you’re saying that if the government discriminates against people because of their religion….”

-

I’m sorry but you’re not even trying to hear me.  No matter how many times I see the phenomena it never fails to stump me.

Understand this one item before you continue, please.  I do not see the government discriminating against people because of their religion.  Not in this case anyhow.  One cannot back-track on something they had never approached.

Now feel free to ask any question you wish in regards to my premise.  My perceptions.  Not your own.  That’s how people authentically listen to one another and avoid talking past the other.

GRYM—So you’re saying that if the government discriminates against people because of their religion, it’s not religious intolerance?  Because that’s exactly what Gingrich, Giuliani, Lazio, Paladino, Reid, and apparently Dean are suggesting.  (I gather there is some back-pedaling going on.)  It seems to me that religious intolerance is just about defined by proposals like that.

GRYM:

Glad to hear you don’t oppose this community center. Me neither.

The Right loves to use metaphors of guns and war as if this makes them more manly somehow, even the women.  Of course they INSIST there isn’t any implicit threat in it….Back to the Tooth Fairy and Great Pumpkin!

And, in my blissful ignorance, I NEVER heard the phrase “Lock and load and hit the road”.  Sounds like an army platoon ready to go on patrol in a VERY hazardous area. But what do I know about the gun-crazy culture?

Anarcissie, - “am I to understand that you agree that Gingrich, Giuliani and company (and I do include their new friends in the Democratic Party) are promoting and exploiting religious intolerance?”

-

Promoting and exploiting religious intolerance?  Not exactly, no.

I believe over 3000 people died in the name of Islam on Sept 11, 2001.  Still a short time ago. I believe human beings are understandably reluctant to open their arms as they so clearly had pre 9/11.  I see no surprise in this. - This is not, as Mr. Conason would have people believe, about democrats vs republicans.

I believe Reid, Gingrich, Giuliani and Dean are politicians speaking on issues which reflect their constituents as they see them. Will republicans attempt to turn this issue toward their advantage? OF COURSE! Not, however, unlike several dozen democrats in this election cycle. I see no difference in any of their intentions. In keeping with full context; they are politicians! It’s a mistake, I think, to elevate their utterances over a transit employee.

Frankly, I care little how Giuliani or Dean feel on this particular issue.  I’m unaware of what Giuliani has had to say and have only snippets of Howard Dean’s protestations. I care a great deal more about how New Yorkers, surviving victims, first responders and Hamas feel on the issue.

I have weighed the positives against the negatives and have concluded -hoping actually- that the potential gains outweigh the risks. It has not been an easy decisions when I consider the natural, and truly understandable, feelings of New Yorkers. My reading of the internals in several polls appear to display the same type of reasoning by most Americans.  They simply disagree with me. 

-

Your perception that opponents of the new Mosque are condemning a billion people is, I think, hypersensitive.  Perceptual against the tangible evidence.

*Statistically speaking, a short nine years after 9/11, there are more attacks against synagogues in the United States than there are against Mosques. 

Let us keep this issue in context.

*U.S. Justice Dept.

GRYM—As I said, we won’t know whether racism is mixed in with the explicit religious intolerance involved in the ‘Ground Zero Mosque’ circus until the whole record is examined in detail.  It is obviously to be suspected since, as I said, most Muslims are of non-European descent.

Since you deny only racism, am I to understand that you agree that Gingrich, Giuliani and company (and I do include their new friends in the Democratic Party) are promoting and exploiting religious intolerance?

Anarcissie, - “However, you’re welcome to try to propose some motive other than religious intolerance or racism for using government force against a project in Lower Manhattan solely because its proponents are Muslims.  I think you will have some heavy lifting and strong twisting to do.”

-

Heavy lifting?  Not at all.  My point all along has been to simply listen. And NOT to politicians or media interpretations.  Which, obviously, is what you’ve been concentrating on.  There is absolutely no need to guess as to the motivations.  Simply listen.

You have no evidence that this issue is rooted in racism.  Only your perceptions have you convinced.  Your perceptions tell us a great deal more about you than they do about 50%-70% of Americans. 40% of Muslim Americans.

If we simply listen we see that 40% of Muslims appear to believe building a new Mosque in that location is “provocative” and/or “disrespectful to the victims”. We should give them the respect of listening.  We should not interpret their feelings against their wishes.

You’re also making a mountain out of a sweet potato.  Zoning and re-zoning is done daily in, literally, hundreds of locations across the United States. Many by public demand. Including places of worship. 

If New Yorkers are against an adult bookstore, a Walmart or a Mosque near ground zero they have every right to protest and petition the city, county, and state. It’s done everywhere. - I believe you’re overextending to justify your perceptions.  I see no constitutional crises.

I am in favor of the Mosque being built.  And it has nothing, whatsoever, to do with bigotry and racism.  Nothing!  It’s wrong for you to presume you know better.

ITW, - “Sarah Palin, just used another gun metaphor, telling Dr. Laura to “Re-load”.  Nah, she’d never egg anyone on to violence,not Sarah.”

-

I still could not care any less about what Sarah Palin utters. Aside from an interesting fear of Ms. Palin I can’t wrap my mind around your unending fixation on her. 

Violence/Danger

As you know so much about Sarah Palin can you tell us how many death threats she receives monthly and, do you believe those threats are coming from those horribly dangerous Neo-Cons and those gray haired Tea Party protesters?  Or do you believe being of liberal mind predisposes individuals toward death threats?

-

Post Script: You don’t understand contemporary hunting and gun culture, correct?  You don’t understand the idioms and colloquialisms.  You feel threatened by Ms. Palin’s culture?

“Lock and Load and Hit the Road” is not generally considered to be a threat of violence.  Neither is “Reload”.  These terms are intended to convey a regrouping and getting on with it.  But you buy into the fear context “Lock, Stock, and Barrel”.

The woman is not a goblin.  She simply disagrees with you.  I believe you can relax.

Go Right Young Man, August 19 at 4:33 pm:
‘Anarcissie,

There remains no evidence that the reservations people have over the new proposed Mosque has much to do with bigotry or racism. ...’

Gingrich, Giuliani and company have proposed government-enforced discrimination against a group of people because of their religion.

Normally, one would simply say this is either religious intolerance or, in the case of the leadership involved, pandering to religious intolerance in the hope of gaining votes, contributions, influence, and other political advantages from ignorant people.  However, since most Muslims are not of European descent, it may reasonably be suspected to involve racism or pandering to racism as well.  This will come out in the future as the detritus of the present circus is examined.  For the moment, the point is to confront and stop this attack on the Constitution.

However, you’re welcome to try to propose some motive other than religious intolerance or racism for using government force against a project in Lower Manhattan solely because its proponents are Muslims.  I think you will have some heavy lifting and strong twisting to do.

Go Right Young Man, August 19 at 9:06 am Link to this comment

LOL…..You make this stuff up as you go along?  Will you ever learn that very few share your fear of evil republican goblins?
*************************

Yeah, I really believe that most Muslims in America think it’s an insult to America to build a community center two blocks away from ground zero right next to an existing mosque. 

And I believe in the Tooth Fairy and the Great Pumpkin, too.

Do you actually ever read the drivel you write?  I KNOW you don’t really read what I write—just sorta make up what you want to think I said.

Dean is looking at elections, as is Reid.  So are Palin and Gingrich.  BTW, Ms. “non-violence”, Sarah Palin, just used another gun metaphor, telling Dr. Laura to “Re-load”.  Nah, she’d never egg anyone on to violence,not Sarah.

Anarcissie,

There remains no evidence that the reservations people have over the new proposed Mosque has much to do with bigotry or racism.  What remains are your perceptions.  I’ll give people a great deal more credit for knowing their own minds.  I’ll listen to their reservations, although I hold very few of those stated reservations myself.

By your “logic”, by disagreeing with party leaders (Reid and Dean), you should be condemning the entire democratic party.  Using your logic the majority of American democrats are condemning roughly a billion people for the actions of a few. Yet that is not your claim.  You reserve that for “the other” party. - Dichotomy?

And what of the 40% of American Muslims?  Bigotry against Muslims?

GRYM—Readiness to condemn more than a billion persons because of what two dozen of them have done is bigotry.  It doesn’t matter what some polls somewhere may have come up with—many people are perfectly willing to exercise bigotry while denying what they’re doing.  That doesn’t change the facts.

The evidence for what I say are the statements of the people I have named.  They have openly and explicitly advocated that the Constitution be nullified in the case of the ‘Park 51’ project, which they lyingly call the ‘Ground Zero Mosque’.  Unless everything I read is incorrect, those are facts.  The people I am talking about are acknowledged leaders of the Republican Party; ‘mosque’ flogging seems to have become an article of faith in the party, which a few honorable exceptions.  The only question is whether the bigotry of the people they’re trying to appeal to is based on race, religion, or both.  If that matters.

When I wrote before, Reid and Dean had not yet besmirched themselves.  Now they have.  Republicans led the charge, but these Democrats, traitors to reason and freedom, have joined its ranks.  Perhaps their role is even more shameful than that of those they follow.  Unfortunately that’s nothing new for the Democrats.

Anarcissie,- “It’s a matter of simple logic.”

-

I’m sure it seems logical to you.  Clearly, however, your logic is rooted in your perceptions.  Will you not allow for the perceptions of others -the majority- who do not see it your way?

Aside from your perceptions, would you be able to offer any evidence, anything at all, which supports your conclusions?

Note: If your logic is not rooted in base bigotry in its own right, why are you writing of Gingrich and not Howard Dean - Or the dozens of other liberal-minded individuals who oppose this Mosque being built?  Why are you not explaining why 40% of the Muslim community have reservations as well?

Why are your most dire condemnations reserved for “vicious, violent rhetoric of thugs” on the OTHER side of the political isle?  Might you be a bigot yourself?  Might that be clouding your judgment?

Go Right Young Man, August 19 at 8:51 am:

‘Anarcissie, - “Of course it’s bigotry.  What else could it be?”
... [polls] ...
The internals in these polls show nothing in the way of racism or simple bigotry.  Nothing at all.  If you find signs of racism in any poll of your choosing I would be willing to see it. ...

It seems to me anyone who believes that this is an issue of bigotry is not listening to real people.  Real surviving victims.  Real New York Fireman and Policeman. It seems to me that anyone who believes the issue is one of racism is consumed by Washington and the media world. ‘

It’s a matter of simple logic.  It is obvious that if a Christian or Jewish religious organization proposed building something in lower Manhattan, no one would object.  It is solely because the proponents are Muslims that this circus has developed.  Why?  Because the people who attacked the World Trade Center were Muslims.  Therefore, one billion or more people are being held to be responsible for the actions of a couple of dozen.  That is bigotry, pure and simple.  The vicious, violent rhetoric of thugs like Gingrich have made that explicit.  The only remaining question is whether the “Ground Zero Mosque” activists are motivated by racism, religious intolerance, or both.  That they are liars and fascists (people who want to destroy the Bill of Rights) is also explicit.

Go Right Young Man, August 19 at 8:51 am:

‘Anarcissie, - “Of course it’s bigotry.  What else could it be?”
... [polls] ...
The internals in these polls show nothing in the way of racism or simple bigotry.  Nothing at all.  If you find signs of racism in any poll of your choosing I would be willing to see it. ...

It seems to me anyone who believes that this is an issue of bigotry is not listening to real people.  Real surviving victims.  Real New York Fireman and Policeman. It seems to me that anyone who believes the issue is one of racism is consumed by Washington and the media world. ‘

It’s a matter of simple logic.  It is obvious that if a Christian or Jewish religious organization proposed building something in lower Manhattan, no one would object.  It is solely because the proponents are Muslims that this circus has developed.  Why?  Because the people who attacked the World Trade Center were Muslims.  Therefore, one billion or more people are being held to be responsible for the actions of a couple of dozen.  That is bigotry, pure and simple.  The vicious, violent rhetoric of thugs like Gingrich have made that explicit.  The only remaining question is whether the ‘Ground Zero Mosque’ activists are motivated by racism, religious intolerance, or both.  That they are liars (‘Ground Zero Mosque’) and fascists (people who want to destroy the Bill of Rights) is also explicit: government can’t stop the project without abrogating the First Amendment.

Windy, - “If 40-50% of American Muslims think the community center in lower Manhattan should be rethought is that due to the “insult” to those who died or out of the real, rational fear that their homes and mosques will be attacked by the Palin/Gingrich yahoos?”

-

Good grief!  And you believe Palin and Gingrich are the fear-mongers?  A powerful imagination you have there, Windy.

I suppose Howard Dean too is a threat to the homes of Muslims in America.

LOL…..You make this stuff up as you go along?  Will you ever learn that very few share your fear of evil republican goblins?

Anarcissie, - “Of course it’s bigotry.  What else could it be?”

-

# CNN: 68% of Registered Voters Oppose Mosque At Ground Zero

# Marist: Strong Majority in NYC Oppose GZ Mosque; Mayors #’s Plummet

# Siena: 56% of NYC Residents Oppose Ground Zero Mosque

# Rasmussen: Only 20% Support Ground Zero Mosque

# Quinnipiac: Strong Majority of NYers Oppose Ground Zero Mosque

The internals in these polls show nothing in the way of racism or simple bigotry.  Nothing at all.  If you find signs of racism in any poll of your choosing I would be willing to see it.

Why do more than 40% of U.S. Muslims believe the idea to build a Mosque in that particular location is unwise?  Racism?  Bigotry against Muslims?

There is, today, a long-time Mosque very near the proposed site.  Nobody cares or raises an eyebrow in the United States about a simple Mosque.  Clearly a Mosque near the site is not really the issue for most people.  There must be more to it than that.

It seems to me anyone who believes that this is an issue of bigotry is not listening to real people.  Real surviving victims.  Real New York Fireman and Policeman. It seems to me that anyone who believes the issue is one of racism is consumed by Washington and the media world.

Go Right Young Man, August 18 at 2:47 pm Link to this comment

Most Americans could not care any less about party affiliation.  Only the extreme 8% on either side pay such agonizing attention to Washington gamesmanship. Most people leave all that to the idiots in the media and the Belt-Way.
***************************

Funny, George Will, Republican and Conservative analyst, said for years that 40% of the people will always vote Republican, 40% will always vote Democratic, and the elections are won and lost over that middle 20%.

If 40-50% of American Muslims think the community center in lower Manhattan should be rethought is that due to the “insult” to those who died or out of the real, rational fear that their homes and mosques will be attacked by the Palin/Gingrich yahoos?

Once again, GRYM, you show that you are always and consistently wrong about, well, everything.

“If “people” are frightened to have a black president, how did he get elected? And the reason there was a spike in gun and ammo sales is because Democrats threatened to restrict gun sales and tax the hell out of ammo. And where do you get your militia numbers? “

Oh, rico
Could you link to any such threat? The Democrats have controlled the Legislature for many years at a time in our recent history and never has such a bill been offered. This myth , that democrats want to take away our guns, is a canard proffered by right wing extremists, and your use of such is saddening.

Gun control, in which certain types of weapons are federally controlled is not at all the same as the lie you attempt to foist upon us, that dem Dems want your guns, and the plain fact is that Dems have backed away from even that necessary control. As you are undoubtedly aware I am not a Democrat or a democrat but I am sensitive to falsehood and distortions such as you are prone to….

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/04/18/dems_and_guns

Of course it’s bigotry.  What else could it be?  Please explain why Muslims should not have the same rights to build a mosque or anything else they like anywhere where they own the land and the laws permit religious buildings, as in Lower Manhattan.

The Democrats and ‘liberals’ who have signed on to this wretched circus are, as I said, von Papen types.  Let’s hope their talents for cowardice and sycophancy don’t get a chance for full exercise as von Papen’s did.

In my opinion,(for whtitsworth)

That was very well put

Go__Right__Young__Man

thank you.

Anarcissie,

Dozens of the liberal-minded have publicly, both in speech and in writing, waxed negatively about this Mosque being built in that particular location.

All Americans combined, by 3 to 1, have several reservations on the issue.  For honest and understandable reasons.  This is not, I repeat, not a “republican” issue.  This is not an issue of bigotry. 

This issue cuts across all demographic lines.  According to Gallup nearly 42% of Muslims question the wisdom. If that alone does not speak volumes.

Again, roughly 85% of Americans couldn’t give a rabbits butt about democrat and republican games.  That’s the world of the outer edges.  TruthDig and RedState.  Conason and Hannity.  Olbermann and Beck.

GRYM—I would have agreed with you until this “Ground Zero Mosque” circus started up.  All the evidence I’ve seen has been that it was a Republican thing; granted, cowardly, disgraceful von Papen types from the Democratic Party are now shuffling on board.  However, the leading thugs, Gingrich, Palin, Lazio, Paladino, Giuliani, are all Republicans.

Anarcissie,

The entire Democrat v Republican divide you all go on about incessantly is getting old. 

Most Americans could not care any less about party affiliation.  Only the extreme 8% on either side pay such agonizing attention to Washington gamesmanship. Most people leave all that to the idiots in the media and the Belt-Way.

The Democrats haven’t suggested trashing the Constitution (yet), so they are thus far pretty far behind the Republicans in racial politics.

The public anger at the administration and democratic far left will continue to grow for either promoting all this racial tension or failing to stop what it ignited.

The public does not easily express its feelings, but this growing frustration certainly explains, in part, the president’s negative polls, now at 50 percent. They will go still lower if the administration follows the advice of some on the left and continues to deal in off-putting racial identity politics.

-

It’s easy, all too easy in fact, to cry racism when one is losing an argument or policy debate.  It’s also foolishly, needlessly, dangerous.

I don’t think we’ve seen one of the major parties deliberately and openly stirring up racism and religious bigotry since the 1960s.  Yes, there have been a lot of games played with codes and ambiguous symbols, but now we’re seeing the raw stuff.

Anarcissie, August 16 at 12:18 pm Link to this comment

ITW—it isn’t necessary to insult the Republicans.  All that is necessary is to state plainly and truthfully what they’re overtly doing.

*****************************

Spit take! ROFL!

Is it an insult when you state the truth about them?

Remember: It isn’t slander or libel if it’s true—you can ALWAYS “defend with truth” against such charges.

I’m always suspicious of the shadow cast by opinion in the “absolute”. Human emotion and the dictates of circumstance and interaction, are too varied to put the definitive lid on a topic as complex as race in America.

    All societies practiced slavery to a greater or lesser extent. The major evil of American slavery was denial of the slave as a human being and, though many slaves did work their way to freedom, a general refusal of manumission.

    In early America both laboring whites and blacks were “put in the ground” with no regard to color or future. Early Colonial documents record instances in which whites and blacks fled “massa” together to seek refuge in other Colonies. It was growing inter-racial marriage and common union of purpose among these laboring futureless poor, the fear of revolt, and surge in the African slave trade that prompted European Corporate Charter holders to split the “races” with special incentives for whites. This edge allowed laboring whites to escape into the frontiers and opened the doors of hell for blacks.

    Discussion on this thread, more than ever, makes me believe, that the “racecard”, is an airball. The differences between two individuals of separate race is less than the spectrum of differences between individuals within any race specifically.

      Race, as always in America, is the wedge used by “massa”, this time in the form of Corporate Fascism, to split the American psyche. Beware of the “shills” and “haters” of all colors, that spin it for them. It is D.C. corruption and greed, not race, that threatens the American future.

      I used to drive a big rig into Atlanta. In the early morning dark, two hours out, I’d pass car after car with black children asleep in their p.j.‘s, a tired and overworked mom at the wheel, headed for a job ,that at the end of the week, would just cover day care, shelter and food. They could have been any color. Rev. Wright and Mr. Cone, like you and I, are both reacting to the lash. It is just striking them closer to the bone.

      That smug, evil Corporate smirk on the faces of Cheney, Bush, Boehner, Rubin, and the other heartless thugs that destroy the dreams of all American children, and their hardworking parents, is the problem. The same explotative, inhuman, manipulative attitudes toward the poor that drove the Corporate Charterists that founded American is alive and well in Washington. And the same nightmare fear that troubled their sleep and haunted their every move still stands:REVOLT.

ITW—it isn’t necessary to insult the Republicans.  All that is necessary is to state plainly and truthfully what they’re overtly doing.

Go Right Young Man

————————————————————————

By JDmysticDJ, August 14 at 3:52 am Link to this comment

“I’m guessing that you are un-phased, and that you will continue to be a disingenuous obfuscator.

————————————————————————-

By Go Right Young Man, August 15 at 2:24 am

“I was quoting Rev. Wright.  Verbatim.  I was not quoting Cone. Rev Wright was quoting Cone.”

————————————————————————

By Go Right Young Man, August 13 at 8:28 am Link to this comment

“Rev Wright teaches: ‘Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him. The task of black theology is to kill Gods who do not belong to the black community … Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject his love.’”

————————————————————————

You have quoted the worst of all possible quotations from James H. Cone, which was taken out of context, and claimed that Rev. Wright used this specific quotation from Cone in his teachings, “verbatim.”

The right-wing media has indeed tried to equate James H. Cone’s extreme beliefs with the beliefs of Rev. Wright, and Barak Obama, by association, but only you have claimed that Rev. Wright taught this most radical of statements, and used Cone’s words to teach his followers, “Verbatim,” but this diminishes what you actually did. You attributed the words of Cone to Rev. Wright; doing so was disingenuous demagoguery of the worst sort.

Apparently you want us to believe that Cone is psychotic, and that Rev. Wright and Barak Obama are adherents to his psychotic ravings.

Cone was a follower of Martin Luther King, and became radicalized after King’s assassination, as did many. All of these racial difficulties are the legacy of racism, which has been, and is, a very real part of the American psyche, and political life. The Right has historically sought to use racism to their political advantage, first arguing that racist policies were efficacious and justifiable, and now denying that racism exists, except as a political strategy of the Left.

Main stream America hailed Barak Obama’s election as an indication of a “Post racial society,” but the Right quickly proved that this was not a valid analysis of current realities.

70% of the American people have voiced their support for irrational race based xenophobia, under the guise of legality, and now another 70% is in support of racial/religious discrimination in New York City. Racism and bigotry are still ingrained in American society. Actual creation of a “Post racial society,” requires acceptance and inclusiveness, not exclusiveness.

Some political strategists and others believe that the Left’s pointing out the Right’s racist proclivities, only aggravates racial tensions, and that the Left should allow the Right to use racism to their political advantage, but unopposed propaganda influences political outcomes and must be opposed.

Right wing demagogues have accused Obama of being a racist, a Marxist, a terrorist sympathizer, and worse. No rational person would believe these charges, but these charges have the effect of subtly influencing political outcomes, it’s the “Big Lie” theory of propaganda effectiveness.

You, Go Right Young Man, have demonstrated that you are a big liar.

Remember how horribly the Right acted when the Clintons were in the White House and then add the element of a Black Democrat winning the office and the Wingnut-racist-teabaggers just completely lost their minds. The only thing is they don’t recognize their racist behavior as actually being racist because they are too busy playing the victim card over and over and over. Racist is as racist does.

Pat Henry:

“People are frightened to have a black President…  Why else would there be a spike in guns and ammo purchases, or a threefold increase in militia membership since January ‘09?”

and

“I fear that this incessant, negative rhetoric is incendiary and that we will live to rue the day we turned our backs on it.”

Well then, knock it off!

If “people” are frightened to have a black president, how did he get elected? And the reason there was a spike in gun and ammo sales is because Democrats threatened to restrict gun sales and tax the hell out of ammo. And where do you get your militia numbers?

Robespierre suggested that liberals ignore certain important issues.

Liberals (Limousine, G-M and Prius alike) do *not* ignore the socioeconomic issues or fail to recognize that
there is a class war going on.  To us the evidence from the media is that there’s been a wholesale rejection of the principles that have put us at the
forefront of Nations:  the belief in equality of opportunity; equal protection under the law; the role of diversity in
our vigor; the value of testable scientific truth; the negative effect of laissez faire, hands-off, Darwinian
capitalism. 

People are frightened to have a black President.  Their fears have been whipped up by the rhetoric of the Far
Right media ... you know who they are.  Why else would there be a spike in guns and ammo purchases, or a
threefold increase in militia membership since January ‘09?

Today someone commented that “we are in an unprecedented period of sociopolitical instability”.  It
certainly seems so here on Main Street.  The instability is entirely unnecessary.  If people were only to pull
together toward our common interests, or if even the majority were to vote for their own self-interest, the Country’s mood would improve overnight.  Employers would start hiring again, bankers would lend, and our unemployment rate would drop.

I fear that this incessant, negative rhetoric is incendiary and that we will live to rue the day we turned our backs
on it. 

Robespierre wrote “The reason these radical, racist tendencies are growing is because a population is frightened,
disillusioned and angry over a rotting system.”  Why are they frightened, disillusioned and angry?  Because there
are irresponsible, self-promoting arsonists out there pouring gasoline on public discontent.

The only thing missing is a match.  I hope I am wrong.

P.S. Robespierre, described as a “de facto dictator” , presided over the Reign of Terror.  Be careful of what you wish for.

Gave Rethugs Your Mind:

How can I be an idiot?  I recognize all your arguments as bullshit, red herrings, obfuscations, and right-down lies.

If I bought them I’d agree with you (but then I’d be too stupid to know).

Go Right Young Man, August 14 at 11:20 pm:

‘... It’s also proving to be a monumental blunder as a political tactic. Every day an independent voter is told he or she is a racist or bigot -of some type or another- for following their independents. These independents happen to be proud of their “Independents”. They also happen to be precisely the voters whom decide elections.’

There comes a time when you have to call things by their right name regardless of how you think people are going to vote.

Joe Conason waxes nostalgic for racism.

AUGUST 13, 2010
By JAMES TARANTO

Liberal columnist Joe Conason issues a challenge:

  Most conservatives were late in taking responsibility for their movement’s immoral opposition to civil rights. It is time for them to step up and denounce the racism that is again disfiguring our country in their name.

OK, Joe, we hereby denounce—well, actually, hang on a second. Before we issue denunciations, we’d like to consider what exactly it is we’re being asked to denounce.

Conason begins by citing the widely circulated rumors that anti-ObamaCare protesters shouted racial epithets at two black congressmen back in March. To his credit—and unlike many a straight-news reporter—he does not claim that these rumors are true. Rather, he contrasts the dubious rumors with what he calls “loud and ugly outbursts of very real racism.”

He lists four of these supposedly racist outbursts; here’s the first:

  As if suffering from a facial tic, leading figures on the right cannot seem to suppress their inner Klansman these days.

  Is there any other way to explain Glenn Beck’s crazed rant comparing the Obama administration to an old movie about a society where apes and chimpanzees dominate humans? What did the Fox News host mean, exactly, when he shrieked: “It’s like the damned Planet of the Apes. Nothing makes sense!”

We sought out the full context of Beck’s remark, and found it at Jack & Jill Politics, a satirical blog that describes itself as offering “a black bourgeoisie perspective on U.S. politics.” Beck’s subject, it turns out, was not race but unsustainable public-sector pensions. Beck shows a clip of the president speaking at an AFL-CIO gathering, thanking the union federation “for all you’ve done . . . to fight for reforms that will rein in the special interests.” Beck’s answer:

  Special interest! What planet have I landed on? Did I slip through a wormhole in the middle of the night and this looks like America? It’s like the damn “Planet of the Apes.” Nothing makes sense! The guy who’s helped destroy all these pensions, Andy Stern, is now on the financial oversight committee. Is this who we want to take advice from?

  The unions who have collapsed all of the businesses, who have collapsed all of their pensions, they are bankrupting everything they touch, and we go to them and we say, yes, tell me, what should we do? It’s like any marital tips from Tiger Woods.

That’s funny, Andy Stern doesn’t look black.

Conason’s next example also involves a conservative commentator:

  Is there any other way to explain the grotesque new best-seller by radio host Laura Ingraham, “The Obama Diaries,” where, among other things, she depicts first lady Michelle Obama eating ribs at every meal? Why would she feel the need to describe the president as “uppity” by putting the word in the mouth of his mother-in-law? No wonder Stephen Colbert taunted Ms. Ingraham to her face for “hideous and hackneyed racial stereotyping.”

We watched the Colbert video. What Conason fails to note is that Ingraham’s book is a satire—and, for that matter, so is Colbert’s program.

READ MORE:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703960004575427381953777918.html?
mod=WSJ_Opinion_MIDDLETopOpinion&mg=com-wsj#articleTabs=article

Windy, are you so full of pride that you’re willing to have others believe you can’t read? 

I was wrong about you.  It’s not simply hate and fear that drives your conclusions.  You’re an “idiot”...LOL

-

“Idiot” is a quote from Keith Olbermann.  I’m sorry, off-hand, I can’t give you the root origins of the word.  I’m sure others have used the word as well.  For reasons of brevity I won’t credit them all.

LOL….........

So you finally, at least GRUDGINGLY (with a dodge, too), admit that those weren’t Wright’s words, but Cone’s.

Can you post ANYTHING without obfuscating and twisting it?  Or does it go against some creed?

“If you deliberately attribute inflammatory quotes to Wright that you know were Cone’s, that is falsifying them.  If you INSIST they are Wright’s even after they are shown to be Cone’s that’s STILL as you like to say ‘not honorable’.”

-

Correct. - IF being the operative word.

Windy, I’m sorry but this is stupid beyond your usual.  I am astounded that you can be so small.

I was quoting Rev. Wright.  Verbatim.  I was not quoting Cone. Rev Wright was quoting Cone. 

This has got to be the dumbest single item you have wasted time with.

Go Right Young Man, August 14 at 8:11 pm Link to this comment

You may wish to revisit my comments a third or fourth time.  Frankly speaking; your imagination is getting the better of you.
******************************

You should be talking to JDMysticDJ, not me. He’s the one who found that all the quotes you kept saying were Rev. Wright’s really were J. Cone’s.

If you deliberately attribute inflammatory quotes to Wright that you know were Cone’s, that is falsifying them.  If you INSIST they are Wright’s even after they are shown to be Cone’s that’s STILL as you like to say “not honorable”.

I have nothing to take back or reconsider.  Your beef is with JDMysticDJ, or, more correctly, with Rev. Wright for having the NERVE not to have said the things you attributed to him!

But that’s one of those right-wing fascist tricks you like: Say someone said something, then, when proven that they didn’t, attack the provers with other red herrings.

You really ought to be ashamed of yourself.  If your positions were any good, you wouldn’t have to play all these tricky games you play.

More and more posters here are finally getting wise to them.

It’s all too easy to cry racism when losing an argument.  It’s foolish and needlessly dangerous. 

I think it’s worth repeating that we live in a complex, multiracial, and religiously diverse society.  One of the most tolerant on the globe.

In other words, there is no simple ideological, racial, or religious divide between a monolithic “us” and “them.” We have devolved to the point where promiscuously crying “Bigot!” and “Racist!” signals a failure to convince 51 percent of the people of the merits of an argument.

It’s also proving to be a monumental blunder as a political tactic. Every day an independent voter is told he or she is a racist or bigot -of some type or another- for following their independents. These independents happen to be proud of their “Independents”. They also happen to be precisely the voters whom decide elections.

Windy,

Falsifying quotes?  What are you going on about? 

Is it not universally understood that quotes are intended to duplicate an individual’s words just as they were written and/or spoken?  I am quite certain I did that.  Verbatim. 

You may wish to revisit my comments a third or fourth time.  Frankly speaking; your imagination is getting the better of you.

It is the job of Sarah P., Newty G., Beck, others, and the MSM that touts their stupidity, to distract, inflame and obfuscate. Their purpose is to prevent principled American political dialogue. Theives are looting the Nation. Theirs is the job of distracting you. Yours, is the POWER. That’s why a trillion dollar industrial propagandist industry is in place to convince you that you have none.

      Race is only an issue to racists. It’s boogie man sensationalism. The fascist Cheney/Bush thugs pulled us into darkness, but there’s still light. You’re being played.

      “He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.” THOMAS PAINE

      In short: What goes around, comes around. The Country has/and is, being looted.Citizens, the poor most of all,are being broken under the economic strain. Race has nothing to do with the real issue. People are not the perps.Washington is. @#ck Newt and Sarah—do you take them at all seriously?

      “Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it.” THOMAS PAINE

      It’s time to start pumping and packing some political iron. Act now, register now, and VOTE!!

rico, suave, August 14 at 5:00 pm:
Anarcissie,

“Gingrich, Palin, and New York gubernatorial candidates Lazio and Paladino, all of whom have demanded that the First and Fourteenth Amendments of the Constitution be overthrown in favor of racism, religious intolerance, or both.”

REALLY? Do you have a non-moveon.org, non-Youtube home movie source for that assertion?

I think their official, published, attested, repeated remarks on the subject will suffice.  I hope you will not make me quote them, because I find them repugnant, but I will if I have to.

The Constitution, First Amendment, says, among other things, ‘Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.’  The Fourteenth Amendment applies the Bill of Rights to the states, and commands equal protection of the laws.  Therefore, under the Constitution, as long as anyone can have a religious building in the general area of the World Trade Center, and there are many, so can Muslims.  A child can follow this logic.

Gingrich, Palin, Lazio, Paladino, and we can add Giuliani and many others, have all called for the so called ‘Ground Zero Mosque’ to be stopped by force, stopped by the government.  Therefore, they wish to abrogate the U.S. Constitution, which is the only way to legally stop it.  Again, this should be obvious even to a child.

Why do they want to stop it?  The only possible reasons are religious bigotry or racism, or a combination of the two; or, even worse, it may be the cynical desire to exploit these sentiments among the less intelligent in order to garner votes and monetary support.  Again, this is obvious; no reason can be given to stop the project in question which does not go back to the religion or supposed race of the proponents.

Besides being thugs who stir up racism and religious bigotry for political gain, Gingrich, Palin, Lazio, Paladino, Giuliani and so on are liars.  The ‘Ground Zero Mosque’ is not a mosque and it is not at ‘Ground Zero’.

The Republican Party appears to have completely lost its moral compass.  I believe they are going to find out that in the long run bigotry is not as advantageous to them as they thought.  I certain hope so.

rico, suave, August 14 at 5:00 pm:
Anarcissie,

“Gingrich, Palin, and New York gubernatorial candidates Lazio and Paladino, all of whom have demanded that the First and Fourteenth Amendments of the Constitution be overthrown in favor of racism, religious intolerance, or both.”

REALLY? Do you have a non-moveon.org, non-Youtube home movie source for that assertion?

I think their official, published, attested, repeated remarks on the subject will suffice.  I hope you will not make me quote them, because I find them repugnant, but I will if I have to.

The Constitution, First Amendment, says, among other things, ‘Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.’  The Fourteenth Amendment applies the Bill of Rights to the states, and commands equal protection of the laws.  Therefore, under the Constitution, as long as anyone can have a religious building in the general area of the World Trade Center, and there are many, so can Muslims.  A child can follow this logic.

Gingrich, Palin, Lazio, Paladino, and we can add Giuliani and many others, have all called for the so called ‘Ground Zero Mosque’ to be stopped by force, stopped by the government.  Therefore, they wish to abrogate the U.S. Constitution, which is the only way to legally stop it.  Again, this should be obvious even to a child.

Why do they want to stop it?  The only possible reasons are religious bigotry or racism, or a combination of the two; or, even worse, it may be the cynical desire to exploit these sentiments among the less intelligent in order to garner votes and monetary support.  Again, this is obvious; no reason can be given to stop the project in question which does not go back to the religion or supposed race of the proponents.

Besides being thugs who stir up racism and religious bigotry for political gain, Gingrich, Palin, Lazio, Paladino, Giuliani and so on are liars.  The ‘Ground Zero Mosque’ is not a mosque and it is not at ‘Ground Zero’.

The Republican Party appears to have completely lost its moral compass.  I believe they are going to find out that in the long run bigotry is not as advantageous to them as they thought.  I certain hope so, as would anyone who read the history of the 20th century.

Anarcissie,

“Gingrich, Palin, and New York gubernatorial candidates Lazio and Paladino, all of whom have demanded that the First and Fourteenth Amendments of the Constitution be overthrown in favor of racism, religious intolerance, or both.”

REALLY? Do you have a non-moveon.org, non-Youtube home movie source for that assertion?

Nor do I seek to defend James H. Cone, the actual author of the statements GRYMie attributed to Rev. Wright and Barak Obama, by association.

That’s from JDMystic….

Go Right Young Man, August 14 at 3:41 pm Link to this comment

You have an outlandishly powerful imagination…LOL

And that’s from Gave Rethugs Your Mind!

Either he’s an idiot or he thinks that the rest of us are and he can put SUCH an obvious lie across!

No imagination.  Just the ability to read and parse English.

People may wonder why GRYMie disgusts me so much. What he has done here on this forum is what he always does. People may say, “What’s the big deal?” “People always exaggerate and distort during debate,” but let’s examine what he has done here.

His intent was to discredit those who object to racism by attempting to portray them as being the actual racists, as if to say that one wrong justifies another wrong, but this attempt had additional benefits for his devious mind to take advantage of. He sought out the worst of all possible written statements and falsely attributed them to Rev. Wright with the intent of besmirching Barak Obama by association. The right wing media has been constantly attempting to portray Barak Obama as a racist, and worse, thereby discrediting their political opponents by association. Knowing how some people object to examples from history as being extreme, I’ll simply point out that this kind of deceptive propaganda has had tragic consequences in the past, and in present times as well, and that this kind of deceptive propaganda is truly insidious.

I’m not here to defend Barak Obama, my own view is that he has been guilty of very real actions that are worthy of criticism in the strongest terms, but I continue to believe that a misguided Barak Obama is preferable to any mean spirited and stupid alternative from the right side of the political spectrum. Nor do I seek to defend James H. Cone, the actual author of the statements GRYMie attributed to Rev. Wright and Barak Obama, by association. My opinion of James H. Cone is that he is guilty of racist thought, that he is a religious extremist and that he is neurotic, but I don’t believe that he is psychotic. His worst of all possible written words have been taken out of context, his comments about destroying God, killing God, etc. were not the ravings of a psychotic, they were intended to be metaphorical. Anyone interested in the views of James H. Cone only needs to visit Wikipedia. In final analysis of James H. Cone, I believe that he is an extremist, whose extremism has resulted from the legacy of racism, and from a neo-fundamentalist religious thinking.

Tragically racism has returned to the forefront of political debate, but it has not been given a sudden rebirth, it has been subdued and disguised all along. Racism has not been dredged up by the Left for political advantage; it was clearly manifested by the Right for political advantage; racism has been a characteristic of the Right, and anyone who says otherwise is simply a denier.

Are there common social, human and political values treasured by all Americans that transcend race?

  I believe there are.

  Are there unique American cultural beliefs held by all Americans that transcend race?

  I believe there are.

  If not, no common ground for unity and dialogue exists.

  The American racial/socio-economic reality, and experience of it, is so fractured, one can literally drive through the gates of a private upscale community and within a block enter an American, poverty stricken, criminal warzone. Depending on where you stand and your interest lay, either Rev. Wright or Karl Rove, is preaching the gospel truth.

    It seems, that the fabric of our lives, is being shredded, between the polarites of rapacious greed, and total social/familial disintegration. The manufactured, electronic culture my generation called “plastic”, now thinly overlays, a police state enforced indentured servitude, that for the vast majority, sucks the fruits of all labor upward, without any social benefit. This is true for all races.

    Do YOU hold a personal vision of a racially united America? Are WE the great “melting pot”? Did you SEE the girl on the magazine cover with her nose cut off or the Middle East DEAD left in mass graves because of factional religious fighting. Are WE a more evolved culture? I think we are!! Black, white, brown, red, yellow or coyote, any American recoils at that kind of ignorance or, is that where we’re headed?

    Rapacious greed and avarice, like soul, has no color. Race isn’t the problem. It is a corrupt, mainly Republican, political machine, that has violated every principle of American Vision for personal gain. They are modern day slavers and traitors who suspended the Constitution, destroyed the economy, and are intent on looting the remainder. The natural social disintegration that results from inept corporate fascist politics breeds violence and fractures the American psyche. Stop spending $300,000.00 to lock a man up for 15 years and put it into education and the “race issue” will disappear.

    “What they do?—They smile in your face—all the time they want to take your place—the BACK STABBERS—-”

Windy,

Falsifying quotes?

You have an outlandishly powerful imagination…LOL

wildflower—Bryan Fischer is small potatoes next to official Republicans Gingrich, Palin, and New York gubernatorial candidates Lazio and Paladino, all of whom have demanded that the First and Fourteenth Amendments of the Constitution be overthrown in favor of racism, religious intolerance, or both.  As usual the Democrats are mostly lying low, allowing these thugs to pretend they represent public opinion.  Democratic Party shill Conason, for instance, can pick out oddballs in the hinterland to make fun of, while he ignores the malign elephant trumpeting in his living room.

ofersince72, August 13 at 11:37 pm Link to this comment

It is neither, it is game with him.  He is one of those
that will pick flip side of a debate just for game of it
and keep you bickering with him as long as he can keep
you attention.  He is just bored person.
*****************************

If that were true I’d respect him a helluva lot more.  He’s now been caught falsifying quotes by JDMystic.  Isn’t that EXACTLY what Fox Noise does? And just got caught doing?

What is it that has caused the heads of so many to explode with indignation?  The words of Presidential adviser and racist, Karl C. Rove!

That Mr. Rove would call on God to destroy the black community is appalling to (almost) everyone.

“[White] theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the [white] community. If God is not for us and against [black] people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him. The task of [white] theology is to kill Gods who do not belong to the [white] community … [White] theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the [black] enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in [white] Power, which is the power of [white] people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject his love.”

GOD DAMN the Democratic Republic of the Congo!

*[Karl C. Rove] - Oral presentation of [white] Theology and [white] Power, God of the Oppressed, and Risks of Faith. - New Beginnings Church: Mobile, Alabama - Feb. 1997

-

*Jeremiah A. Wright, Jr

Go Right Young Man

This is what you have posted.

By Go Right Young Man, August 13 at 7:52 pm Link to this comment

As factual as the sun rising tomorrow:  Take in everything Wright teaches.  Consume it all.  Now place the words “white people” in place of “black people” from Karl Rove’s mind to his mouth.  What would happen?
HEADS WOULD EXPLODE WITH RIGHTEOUS INDIGNATION!.  Every individual on this thread would lose their collective minds.  But, like you say, Rev. Wright agrees with your view of the United States in the world so, you applaud him for it and ignore his teaching of hate, fright and the murderous white devils.  If God does not “destroy the white oppressors - we must “reject His love”.

By Go Right Young Man, August 13 at 12:03 pm Link to this

Are you saying you support Rev. Wright because he claims the “The Chickens Have Come Home To Roost” so, you are willing to ignore the many other things Wright believes in and teaches?
If God does not “destroy the white oppressors” we must “reject is love”?  <—You are willing to defend or ignore this and, simultaneously, accuse me of ignorance regarding Mr. Wright?

By Go Right Young Man, August 13 at 12:03 pm Link to this

If God does not “destroy the white oppressors” we must “reject is love”?  <—You are willing to defend or ignore this and, simultaneously, accuse me of ignorance regarding Mr. Wright?

By Go Right Young Man, August 13 at 9:43 am Link to this comment

What I know of Rev. Wright is derived from dozens of hours of study.  I wanted to know more about the front runner in the Democratic primaries.  I have both read and listened to dozens of Rev. Wright’s sermons in their entirety.

By Go Right Young Man, August 13 at 8:28 am Link to this comment

Rev Wright teaches: “Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him. The task of black theology is to kill Gods who do not belong to the black community … Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject his love.”

After dozens of hours of studying Rev. Jeremiah Wright, you must know that the words you have, over and over, attributed to Rev. Wright are actually the words of James H. Cone.

Go Right Young Man (Cont.) 

“Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him. The task of black theology is to kill Gods who do not belong to the black community ... Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject his love. “
(Quoted in William R Jones, “Divine Racism: The Unacknowledged Threshold Issue for Black Theology”, in African-American Religious Thought: An Anthology, ed Cornel West and Eddie Glaube.)”

All of your posts have been based on a falsehood.  You specifically attributed the above from James H. Cone, to Rev. Wright.

You wrote,

“Rev Wright teaches: “Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community etc. …”

Rev. Wright’s perceived objectionable comments have been all over the media, and examined in detail. Nowhere, except here on truthdig (By you) have James H Cone’s words been attributed to Rev. Wright.

Everything you have written on this thread has been based on falsity, so everything you have written here is demagoguery of the worst sort. I have said over and over again that people such as yourself care more about your ideology, than you do about the truth. Unless you can provide proof that Rev. Wright taught the above quotation, my assertion, as it applies to you, has been accurate, and any person of good character must find your demagoguery despicable.

You attempt to accuse the victims of racism of racism, which is the tactic of you and your ilk. Rev. Wright’s parishioners claimed he was the victim of a “Modern day lynching.” How does it feel to be a member of a lynch mob? I’m guessing that you are un-phased, and that you will continue to be a disingenuous obfuscator.

Inherit_The_Wind

This site is one of the duopolies cadillacs isn’t it?

The Democrat Party gathers here on Truth Dig and talk
nonsense.  Argue among themselves mostly, well, not
really argue,  a make believe debate.

Because that is what the Democrat Party is , a make
believe.  They are getting frustrated because they are
getting fewer and fewer to play this game of make
believe.  SUCKS DOESN’T IT DEMOCRATS OF THE
TRUTH DIG SOCIETY…....HUH ?  It won’t one the internet
or your Fox news or your MSMBC giggly Rachael show.
The Democrats world is a comin tumblin down.
At first , we thought we had to take the REPUBS out,
and about did,  but you DEMS saved their life.
So now we have to get rid of you, then go back and rid
of the Rethugs again,,,, No matter,  the duopoly is
going, going, gone…....................................

Rico,  can I count on your vote for me

as PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES

running on the “He Man, Woman Haters Club” ticket?

I it will be completly made up of non-racists
and full sexaceists.

That alright JD will tell me if you are,

he had his fingers crossed when did the

I Cross My Heart
And Hope to Die.

GRYM:

Don’t let ofersince ask you if you’re of Cuban descent. He’ll hound you to death!

Inherit_The_Wind

There are many, probably most, that realize posting on
the internet , be it one the webby of the year site or
elsewhere, isn’t going to have one bit of influence on
the outcome any election, or any legislative policy.

It’s mostly just a place to bitch,  some have even become bored with that and have taken to new levels.
They have several different names and debate themselves.
Or others, it doesn’t matter, it is like a video game
to them, amusement.  For the most part that is what it
has been for me.  Especially while I was recovering from
falling out of a tree with a chain saw and had four
busted ribs and couldn’t move.  It’s a game.
The political game was lost thirty years ago.  It’s been
over.  Do you really believe you or your vote is going to
change politics or policy in the United States?
To bad if you do.  Have fun with this.

I will quote SHADOW DANCER AGAIN
“Life is good.  What an experience. It is always best to
forgive.”

Inherit_The_Wind

The times that Go_Right_Young_Man isn’t on Truth Dig,

he is probably on a right wing web site with the name

Go_left_Young_Man…..arguing liberal policy with
conservatives.

He is bored person

Inherit_The_Wind

It is neither, it is game with him.  He is one of those
that will pick flip side of a debate just for game of it
and keep you bickering with him as long as he can keep
you attention.  He is just bored person.

So…GRYM:

Again you avoid the question:

Are you a right-wing fascist or a tool and a dupe of the right-wing fascists you keep defending?

“The Racists Return”

No, they’re still, never went anywhere, you have seen
them on Truth Dig everyday , talking out of both sides
of their mouth with their wormtongue,  blaming
Rev. Wright for daring to mention this.

“The Racists Return”

No,  they never went anywhere,

and are still blaming the victims, that is what they do.
They are still calling for militerizing the border
and blaming the slave Mexicans for the conditions that
have made them migrate to get food,  while complaining
about Rev. Wright bringing this to the forefront.

“The Racists Return”

They’re still here, never went anywhere.

And still complaining about Rev Wright bringing to
the forefront the savages of NAFTA on Mexico and the
United States while blacks are still living in gettos
and Native Americans still living in poverty.