blogdog,

I’m not going to wast my time researching abiotic fuel theories anymore than I will whether there is any merit to the theory that the sun rotates about the earth or the other way round.

follow up - posted here are referenced articles not included in first posting
http://www.gasresources.net/ThrmcCnstrnts.htm
again - to contest the article, please contact: .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
© copyright 1996-1999,2000-2006, J. F. Kenney

1     M. V. Lomonosov, Slovo o reshdinii metallov ot tryaseniya zemli, Akadimii
Nauk, St. Petersburg, 1757.
2     R. J. E. Clausius, The Mechanical Theory of Heat, Berlin, 1850.
3     R. J. E. Clausius, “The Mechanical Theory of Heat”, Phil. Mag., 1862, xxiv,
201.
4     T. De Donder, L’Affinité, Gautier-Villars, Paris, 1936.
5     T. De Donder and P. Van Rysselberghe, The Thermodynamic Theory of
Affinity, Stanford University Press, Menlo Park, 1936.
6     I. Prigogine and R. Defay, Chemical Thermodynamics, Longmans, London,
1954.
7     D. Kondepudi and I. Prigogine, Modern Thermodynamics:  From Heat
Engines to Dissipative Structures, John Wiley & Sons, New York, 1998.
8     J. N. Bronsted and J. Koefoed, J. Kgl. Danske, Vedenskab Selskab, Mat.-
Phys. Medd., 1946, 22, 1.
9     J. Hijmans, “Phenomenological formulation of the principle of
corresponding states for liquids consisting of chain molecules”, Physica, 1961,
27, 433-447.
10     I. Prigogine, A. Bellemans and C. J. Naar-Colin, “Theorem of
corresponding states for polymers”, J. Chem. Phys., 1957, 26, 751.
11     U. S. Bureau of Standards, Selected properties of hydrocarbons, A.P.I.
Project 41, 1946-1952.
12     A. S. Eigenson, “On quantitative study of the formation of technogenic
and natural hydrocarbons using methods of mathematical modeling”, Khimiya i
Teknologiya Topliv i Masel, 1990, 12, 19-254.
13     A. S. Eigenson, “On quantitative study of the formation of technogenic
and natural hydrocarbons using methods of mathematical modeling”, Khimiya i
Teknologiya Topliv i Masel, 1991, 5, 19-26.
14     A. S. Eigenson, “Quantitative study of some notions about catagenesis
which is a main stage of biogenic oil-gas formation”, Khimiya i Teknologiya
Topliv i Masel, 1996, 6, 31-36.

conflating scientifically based polemics on the subject of the origin of
petroleum on planet Earth with attempts to pervert science in support of
Christian mythology erects a seriously transparent straw man distraction

kulu, it seems your position is politically derived - essentially part of a larger
so-called ‘political correctitude’, itself in many ways ‘faith based’

the politics of the origins of petroleum on plant Earth doesn’t much interest me,
except that the facts are manipulated for economic gain by major players in
the world’s energy markets, which ultimately leads to war and that does trouble
me

below (previous post) is quoted the concluding paragraphs in a lengthy detailed
scientific article on the subject - in this post is quoted the opening of that
article, in both posts, leaving out the meat of the article, simply because
understanding it requires significant specialized education in chemistry and
physics

any who chooses to study the artical in detail and to contest it may contact it’s
author to do so
Contact:
.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

http://www.gasresources.net/ThrmcCnstrnts.htm

The Constraints of the Laws of Thermodynamics upon the Evolution of
Hydrocarbons: The Prohibition of Hydrocarbon Genesis at Low Pressures.
J. F. KENNEY
Joint Institute of The Physics of the Earth - Russian Academy of Sciences
Gas Resources Corporation, 11811 North Freeway, Houston, TX 77060, U.S.A.
I. K. KARPOV
Institute of Geochemistry - Russian Academy of Sciences
Favorskii Street 1a, Irkutsk,  664.033 RUSSIA
Ac. Ye. F. SHNYUKOV
National Academy of Sciences of UKRAINE
Khmelnitskogo Street 15 B, 01650 Kiev, UKRAINE
V. A. KRAYUSHKIN
I. I. CHEBANENKO
V. P. KLOCHKO
Institute of Geological Sciences - National Academy of Sciences of UKRAINE
O. Gonchara Street 55-B, 01054 Kiev, UKRAINE

      This first article dealing with the general subject of the modern Russian-
Ukrainian theory of abyssal, abiotic petroleum origins does not itself involve
specifically that body of knowledge.  This article discusses the reasons which
led physicists, chemists, thermodynamicists, and chemical, mechanical, and
petroleum engineers to reject, already by the last quarter of the nineteenth
century, the hypothesis that highly-reduced hydrocarbon molecules of high
chemical potentials might somehow evolve spontaneously from highly-oxidized
biological molecules of low chemical potentials, and reviews briefly the
fundamental scientific reasons for the failure of the 18th-century hypothesis1
of a biological origin of petroleum.
      A fundamental attribute of modern Russian petroleum science is that it
conforms to the general, fundamental laws of physics and chemistry.  Although
such constraint may seem an obvious requisite for any scientific assertion, the
18th-century hypothesis that petroleum might somehow evolve spontaneously
from biological detritus in the near-surface depths of the Earth stands,
contrarily, in glaring violation of the most fundamental, and irrevocable, laws of
nature:  the second law of thermodynamics.
      The second law of thermodynamics is a statement of irreversibility, and is
an acknowledgement that spontaneous physical processes “go only one way.”
Such property of the natural world is commonly and inevitably experienced in
day-to-day life.  Such common, irreversible phenomena as heat flow, diffusion,
and chemical reactions are constantly observed.

[...]

Time to empty the prisons of all the petty so-called criminals, those who have served more that a reasonable term by any normal civilized standard and all those activists - really better described as political prisoners who languish in American jails. Time to replace them with the Washington and other corporate and media gangsters who have robbed America and the rest of the world of a reasonable future.

Oh and if space remains refurbish some and provide space for schools or other socially desirable facilities while using the rebuilding process to stimulate more jobs.

Obama, a criminal just like his predecessor would be obliged to join the rest of his gang behind bars but would of course still be allowed visits from Michelle and the kids as long as he behaves himself. And of course being a convicted felon he would have to be stripped of his Nobel Peace Prize which he got under false pretenses anyway.

Of course the oil shills would have you believe oil is a “fossil fuel” in lieu of a abiotic one or one that is self regenerating at the earths mantle.  It then becomes more precious and therefore more expensive.

Its all about manipulation for profit.

Park a few fleets off the coast of Iran and piss them off enough to close the straights of Hormuz, instant shortage.

The Russians are much more advanced in the deep drilling arena and have proven they can find oil almost anywhere if you go deep enough.

What a bunch of Hacks.

Define an abiotic type? You ask. Very similar to a creationist I would say. Faith is all that is needed for these types and evidence is something that is shunned skirted around or twisted.

The name of the game is repetitive assertions that get louder and loader and more assertive as the evidence piling up against their beliefs gets stronger and stronger.

not ‘hoping’ for anything - do pause to challenge proselytizing - compulsive
browbeating over ‘beliefs’ - 

no citation tied to any ‘agenda’ - simply comparing scientific fact… e.g.

short version: http://tinyurl.com/6v69u33
lengthy detailed version: http://www.gasresources.net/ThrmcCnstrnts.htm

conclusion:

      Not only does the hypothesis of a biological origin of petroleum assert
processes which are glaringly in contradiction to the second law of
thermodynamics, but such stands in violation also of the fundamental law of
the conservation of mass for chemical processes.  Even if somehow the
evolution of highly-reduced hydrocarbon molecules of high chemical potentials
might somehow (miraculously) evolve from highly-oxidized biological
molecules of low chemical potentials, the law of the conservation of mass
would require that, for every ton of oil so generated, 8-10 tons of coal would
necessarily also be generated, and likewise for every ton of natural gas, 12-15
tons of coal.12-14 Such deposits of coal are not observed with deposits of
natural petroleum.
      The foregoing properties of natural petroleum, and the prohibition by the
second law of thermodynamics of its spontaneous genesis from highly-
oxidized biological molecules of low chemical potentials, were clearly
understood in the second half of the 19th century by physicists, chemists and
thermodynamicists, such as Berthelot, Sokolov, Biasson, and Mendeleev.
However, the problem of how, and in what regime of temperature and pressure,
do hydrogen and carbon combine to form the particular H-C system
manifested by natural petroleum, remained. The resolution of this problem had
to wait a century for the development of modern atomic and molecular theory,
quantum statistical mechanics, and many-body theory.  This question has now
been resolved theoretically by determination of the chemical potentials and the
thermodynamic Affinity of the H-C system, using modern quantum statistical
mechanics, and has also now been demonstrated experimentally with specially
designed high-pressure apparatus, and is described in the following articles.

good heavens, did you read all the entries in this peak vs abiotic oil polemic?

@bd6951 was generally so obnoxiously distracting, a civil discourse was almost
impossible - as for this posting, kulu, maybe you could help us understand what
you mean by defining an ‘abiotic oil’ type

“good heavens”  Really?  I am sick to death of people like you who haven’t a clue about what the near-term future holds as peak oil explodes into mainstream awareness.  There is no room for discourse about something that DOES NOT EXIST!  Abiotic oil belongs in the trash can of all moronic notions like god and democracy.  None of these things exist.  Spending a nanosecond on discussions of abiotic oil is useless.  You’d be better off learning how to grow and store food and insulating your house than hoping that some new energy source is discovered that can allow people of your ilk to remain alive.  Remember the rules of three: you can be without air for 3 minutes; without water for 3 days; without food for 3 weeks…then you’re dead.  The planet sans fossil fuels is estimated to be able to sustain 1.7 - 2 billion people living at mid 1850’s energy consumption levels.  The world is now home to 7 billion.  You do the math.  Obnoxious?  That hurts.  What a putz.

good heavens, did you read all the entries in this peak vs abiotic oil polemic?

@bd6951 was generally so obnoxiously distracting, a civil discourse was almost
impossible - as for this posting, kulu, maybe you could help us understand what
you mean by defining an ‘abiotic oil’ type

@bd6951,

You put your case so diplomatically - perhaps so much so that the gist of what you are trying to say might be lost on your intended audience.

Seriously though these denialists and “abiotic oil” types have probably cost civilization its future as it is. It’s time they were called out.

Thanks

bd numbers,

“The Soviet Union collapsed because their oil industry collapse.

Spoken like a true oil company shill.  The soviet system’s excessive military expeditures and military occupation caused the demise of the Soviet Union, oil production had very little to do with it.

Much the same thing is happening here with the U.S.

Much of that cheap Soviet oil was backdoored into the United States during the ‘cold war’.

I am certain that you couldn’t begin to even superficially appreciate the many impressive projects I have left in my wake.  If you think that I care a scintilla about your assessment of my skills you couldn’t be more wrong.  And Villa was and is a hack.

I work with many talented steamfitters, plumbers, electricians and other union tradesmen who would eat your lunch. 

IMHO, you are the hack of which you speak.

the collapse of the USSR certainly was hastened by oil production problems, but… 
and I quote from http://www.rense.com/general75/zoil.htm
While Moscow invests… New York squanders…
Copyright Joe Vialls, 25 August 2004

[...]

new petroleum theory was used in the early 1990’s, well after the dissolution of
the USSR, to drill for oil and gas in a region believed for more than forty-five
years, to be geologically barren—the Dnieper-Donets Basin in the region
between Russia and Ukraine.

[...]

also…

When oil is extracted from a producing formation underground, it flows out
through pores in the reservoir rock, and then into the open borehole, from
where it is transported to surface by the production tubing string. So by the
very nature of the beast, the bottom section of the well is “open hole” which
allows the oil to flow out in the first place, but because it is comprised of
exposed and sometimes unstable rock, this open hole section is also
continually subject to all manner of turbulence and various contaminates. For
example, tiny quantities of super fine silt may exit through the pores but not
continue to the surface with the oil, tumbling around in the turbulence instead,
until the silt very slowly starts to block off the oil-producing pore throats.

[...]

The inevitable result of this is that over time, the initial production rate of the
well will slowly decline, a hard fact known to every exploration oilman in the
business. However, this is certainly not an indication that the oil field itself is
becoming depleted, proved thousands of times by offset wells drilled later into
the same reservoir. Any new well comes on stream at the original production
rate of its older cousins, because it has not yet had time to build up a thin layer
of contaminates across the open hole. Though as we shall see it is possible to…
bring it back to full production, this
is extremely expensive, and rarely used in the west.

[...]

Naturally, there are times and places where this simple process is not an
option, for example on a huge and very expensive offshore platform, which
may have only 24 drilling ‘slots’, all of which have been used up. To restore your
overall production after five years you can either build another giant platform
next door for two billion dollars, or “do an oil change” on each of your existing
24 wells, one at a time. Clearly this time you are forced to carry out the time
consuming business of restoring the open hole section at the bottom of the
well to its old pristine condition, before various contaminates started to slow
down your production rate.

Remember, I said this process is rarely used in the west, which is true, but it is
not true of Russia, where the objective for many years has been to dominate
global oil supply by continual investment. With no shareholders holding out
their grubby little hands for a wad of pocket money every month, the Russian
oil industry managed to surge ahead, underreaming thousands of its older
existing onshore wells in less than ten years.

To: Patrick Henry

Once again you prove yourself to be so devoid of any useful thoughts that they hardly merit acknowledgement but you’re almost too easy.  The Soviet Union collapsed because their oil industry collapsed but you never let facts get in the way of your opinion.  You should read Reinventing Collapse by Dmitry Orlov and let him explain that historical event.  He’s a Russian ex-pat who lived through it.  And, no, Ronald Reagan had nothing to do with demolishing the Berlin Wall. 

You seem incapable of addressing the points that I make.  You really should read those websites I mentioned.  If you truly are interested in scientific fact then you would do well to see what is there.  No doubt there is not a chance that you would be so inquisitive.  I see that you have something to say about nearly every article at this site, sort of like a professional crank but lacking in credentials and gravitas .  You sound like a very lonely and unattractive man, a cretin really.  And you really should start reading what experts say about oil extraction and stop making a fool of yourself. 

I am certain that you couldn’t begin to even superficially appreciate the many impressive projects I have left in my wake.  If you think that I care a scintilla about your assessment of my skills you couldn’t be more wrong.  And Villa was and is a hack.

Getting back to the theme of the article associated with this comment stream, the infinite growth paradigm - the underlying foundation of capitalism - is dead because the planet has reached not only peak oil extraction but the extraction of all resources that modernity requires and without which life as we know it is impossible.  So you, too, should learn some kind of strategic skill - basket weaving sounds about right for you - in order to just maybe allow you to survive in my world. And I really am curious about your skill set.  My guess is that you can’t but a nut on a bolt.

bdnumbers,

What a joke, a regular Bob Vila.

You are lucky that people like me exist because when the rigors of peak oil really start causing problems (and know full well that ALL current economic “problems” are caused by the onset of peak oil) and when knowing how to do useful things like build a greenhouse or install a solar water heater or repair the PV inverter or plant the garden or transesterify some more biodiesel or fix the wind turbine or harvest a white oak tree from which to make a new Arts and Crafts door or rewire the house - all of these I have done and continue to do everyday and I could go on

Please don’t ‘go on’ you are making me sick.  It is seldom I hear of such self important assholes as yourself explain that performing weekend projects is some kind of extra special talent that only you possess.

The Russians are the pre-eminent drillers on the planet and they don’t buy into the peak-oil and fossil fuel theory of oil that you and the other gullible idiots would have rational people believe.

this citation only for the sake of balance, not ‘belief’
certainly clean energy makes real sense - all pollution is bad
political manipulate of a fake ‘oil crisis’ does not make sense and leads to war

http://tinyurl.com/ywuc5e

Confessions of an “ex” Peak Oil Believer

By F William Engdahl, September 14, 2007

The good news is that panic scenarios about the world running out of oil
anytime soon are wrong. The bad news is that the price of oil is going to
continue to rise. Peak Oil is not our problem. Politics is. Big Oil wants to sustain
high oil prices. Dick Cheney and friends are all too willing to assist.

According to Campbell, the fact that no new North Sea-size fields had been
discovered since the North Sea in the late 1960’s was proof. He reportedly
managed to convince the International Energy Agency and the Swedish
government. That, however, does not prove him correct.

[...]

That radically different Russian and Ukrainian scientific approach to the
discovery of oil allowed the USSR to develop huge gas and oil discoveries in
regions previously judged unsuitable, according to Western geological
exploration theories, for presence of oil. The new petroleum theory was used in
the early 1990’s, well after the dissolution of the USSR, to drill for oil and gas in
a region believed for more than forty-five years, to be geologically barren—the
Dnieper-Donets Basin in the region between Russia and Ukraine.

A total of sixty one wells were drilled, of which thirty seven were commercially
productive, an extremely impressive exploration success rate of almost sixty
percent. The size of the field discovered compared with the North Slope of
Alaska.  By contrast, US wildcat drilling was considered successful with a ten
percent success rate. Nine of ten wells are typically “dry holes.”

[...]

They… went to Vietnam in the 1980s and offered to finance drilling costs to
show their new geological theory worked. The Russian company Petrosov
drilled in Vietnam’s White Tiger oilfield offshore into basalt rock some 17,000
feet down and extracted 6,000 barrels a day of oil to feed the energy-starved
Vietnam economy. In the USSR, a-biotic-trained Russian geologists perfected
their knowledge and the USSR emerged as the world’s largest oil producer by
the mid-1980’s. Few in the West understood why, or bothered to ask.

[...]

I see.  When someone disagrees with you, they are an “idiot”, a “moron” or “ignorant”.  So let me ask you then, genius, how is it that practically all the oil is confined to a limited number of areas?  If these are fossil fuels, as you insist, then are we to suppose that all the plants were confined to these areas only?  Are we to assume that all the dinosaurs gathered in these areas and these areas alone to create the pools of oil?  Seems to me you’re projecting when you call others names, and that your issues have more to do with your low self-esteem and your inability to manage your irrational anger over evidence which contradicts your beliefs and assumptions.

Sorry about the “Respect” business.  I take it back.

TO: FRTothus:

I really don’t know why I’m bothering to respond to your comments because your questions only reinforce my assessment of you as a idiotic, moronic ignoramus - you omitted studid.  First, you are not disagreeing with me, you are questioning or disagreeing with the entire petroleum geology industry.  These are not my views, they are part of the knowledge base of the petroleum extraction industry.  Oil is “limited” to areas where there were once large bodies of water.  Ghawar, the largest oilfield ever discovered, is in the middle of the Arabian Desert (I’m sure you know the names of the other 3 largest oil fields, their locations and the year(s) they were discovered, “genius”.) 

Rather than waste any more time teaching you about the oil industry I recommend that you bookmark a couple of websites to visit that will answer all of your questions.  They are: TheOilDrum and Energybulletin.net.  Yesterday, EB posted an essay by Jeffery Brown, an active oil field location geologist and extractor, about the world’s oil situation vis-a-vis Daniel Yergin’s past cornucopian projections in response to Yergin’s recent piece in the WSJ (and if you don’t know who Yergin is you have no business involving yourself in this discussion). 

That you even use the term “pools of oil” betrays you as intellectually bankrupt.  You have no idea of the actual geologic formations in which oil is found.  There are no pools of oil.  You have no concept of the processes used to extract oil from the earth.  Actually, you know nothing about which you insist on commenting.  This has become a sickening trait of american culture, that the less one knows of a topic the more qualified one is to opine about it.

And, finally, stop with the psychoanalysis.  You know nothing of me and to throw around terms like irrational anger and projection is just pathetic.  You are lucky that people like me exist because when the rigors of peak oil really start causing problems (and know full well that ALL current economic “problems” are caused by the onset of peak oil) and when knowing how to do useful things like build a greenhouse or install a solar water heater or repair the PV inverter or plant the garden or transesterify some more biodiesel or fix the wind turbine or harvest a white oak tree from which to make a new Arts and Crafts door or rewire the house - all of these I have done and continue to do everyday and I could go on - we’ll be there to lend a hand and pass down the knowledge and skills that are going to be needed when the paradigm of infinite growth soon comes to a screeching halt.

PS If you don’t possess any useful skill I recommend that you identify and learn one quickly because the world that is rapidly approaching will have little use for people like you.

>>By bd6951, September 30 at 11:36 am

To: FRTothus

The depth of ignorance of your remarks is astounding.  There is NO evidence whatsoever that oil is “abiotic’.  Like climate change there is no “other side” in the discussion as to the origin of fossil fuels.  I have no respect for anyone who holds such a moronic belief.  Not only do we have to deal with peak oil we have to deal with idiots like you.  Little wonder this country is doomed. <<

I see.  When someone disagrees with you, they are an “idiot”, a “moron” or “ignorant”.  So let me ask you then, genius, how is it that practically all the oil is confined to a limited number of areas?  If these are fossil fuels, as you insist, then are we to suppose that all the plants were confined to these areas only?  Are we to assume that all the dinosaurs gathered in these areas and these areas alone to create the pools of oil?  Seems to me you’re projecting when you call others names, and that your issues have more to do with your low self-esteem and your inability to manage your irrational anger over evidence which contradicts your beliefs and assumptions.

Sorry about the “Respect” business.  I take it back.

Extreme offense taken, m’thinks you have fallen off the deep end
and might be drowning in dreams of abiotic oil.

of course it’s the ‘system’, in particular those who order the way it’s run -
Obomber is simply their Left Cover Puppet du jour - his greatest success:
killing the anti-war movement - duping most of the left/lib/progs into
trusting that he’d end the wars - literally shutting down their opposition voice

Anglo/American/NATO interests now have 5 shooting wars going and the last one
is not only a monstrous tragedy but a huge mistake - NATO and their so-called
‘rebel’ al-CIA-du thugs are loosing - their war propaganda has chilled and now
you’re hearing almost nothing of it in the MSM, as though it’s all over - far from
it… here’s a 6 min. update from ‘the street’

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEXa7oabJzc&feature=uploademail

Blogdog,
perhaps you invite the criticism of you by, as I’ve said before, Democracy isn’t do as we say or we’ll bomb the Bejesus out of you although that does appear to be the US (both sides) foreign as clearly elucidated by Noam Chomsky.
policyhttp://www.tomdispatch.com/archive/175382/

Then again the individual who laid the invective on you proved two folk wisdoms
“Great minds discuss ideas, average mind do the same for events but small minds can only belittle individuals.”

“Never argue with a fool for they will bring you down to their level then beat you with experience.”

BTW Your response to me while appreciated didn’t back up your claims n did you refute mine mere repudiation is no argument.
The above Chomsky article covers my point that it is the SYSTEM that is broken not the individuals.
To blame Obama is unfair Chomsky makes the point that the US Political system has been taken over by financial powers.
Pragmatically speaking is it more honourable to do what one CAN for the people, albeit limited, or simply stay out of politics and make more money and power in the corporate world?
The simple question is Are we better off with Obama that the Neocom(Poops) mr&mrs; Cheney, Rumsfeld,Fife et al.
To me That’s a no brainer. Its a bit like saying which would you choose between a cold or Bird flu?
One you would survive the other not so sure.
Has Obama lived up to the hype of his campaign? not Bloody likely.
Surely the issue is, knowing that we have/had a choice between the lessor of two evils, our disappointment is ours…we had far too high expectations of one man given the corrupted system with corporate capitalists as the gate keepers.
Did you know that after Obama’s election his PR people won an award for the best marketing campaign?

Essentially, if MacDonalds tell you that their food is the best for you, tastiest, you get a toy then you buy it based on the hype who’s the bunny?

Frankly using the vernacular a shit sundae is still a shit sundae regardless how many sprinkles you put on top. Obama was the sprinkles they’re fine it’s what’s behind it that people ignore and THAT is the problem…. to paraphrase “It’s the system, stupid!” Change the topping all you want but it’s still a shit sundae.

Scheer can apologize for Obama all he likes, but for us less intellectual folk out here in the real world, Obama is at least either grossly, embarrassingly unqualifed for the gravely serious job of the presidency, or at the other extreme, is nothing more that a cynical, power hungry adolescent.  Scheer continues to support hypocrites like Obama, while doing all he can to destroy the reputations of sincere and hard working politicians like Hilllary, and justifies his small minded attacks on her, by pulling out of his hat, one “fault” or another that he finds with the Sec. of State.  I’m sure that he’d also trivialize the findings of late, that Hillary is now that most honored politician in the country, on the grounds that only people of Scheer’s intellectual grade, can make such judgements.

such a pathetically mean spirit - again, serious condolences to those obliged to suffer so much hot air… thank goodness this is not being done face to face

as for this: ”...if you still believe that oil percolates up from the center of the earth…”

actually I don’t believe or disbelieve in any science - science is not ‘faith-based’ - moreover, I’m not a scientist - I leave science to educated scientists working within the peer-reviewed rigor of their focussed fields - free of political influence -  finally I’ve offered no polemic on the topic at all

I jumped in here because I simply couldn’t stand by while this forum is so perniciously abused - then I started digging and found some serious research, to counter what sounds like politically oriented, abusively rendered polemic, for which not a single citation has been posted - PH, with his citations, has invited civil counter claims (with citation) - none have yet to appear - nothing but hot air and abuse, the motivation for my initial post in the thread

as for the avatar, that was addressed below…  BASO said to a monk, “If I see you have a staff, I will give it to you. If I see you have no staff, I will take it away from you.”

“the men we trusted to lead”

Speak for yourself dude.  You may have been naive
enough to trust the candidate with tens of millions
of dollars of Wall Street ‘donations’ in his campaign
accounts, but not all of us were so blindingly
stupid.

And who the heck ever trusted Dubya’s pick for Fed
Chairman in Bernake?  Yikes.  You’ve got to be
freakin kidding.

If you want real change in this country, step one is
to stop ‘trusting’ Wall Street’s paid politicians. 
When you see massive amounts of advertising paid for
by Wall Street $, don’t pay attention to the PR spin
in the ad campaign ... instead, just take note of the
fact that you now know where Wall Street’s $ are and
oppose that candidate.  STOP VOTING FOR PRO-WALL
STREET POLITICIANS!

To: blogdog

I just noticed the avatar you use to accompany your remarks.  So you are some kind of ex-military warmonger?  That explains everything.  Let’s drop some bombs on somebody, anybody.  Your description of working in the garden is so insane as to render you as the most extreme example of stupidity and ignorance.  It is fortunate for you that stupidity is not grounds for deposition onto the mulch pile.  If I had anything to say about it you would have been so deposited long ago.

bdnumbers,

Like this posting?  Abiotic theory is nothing new and has been out there for awhile.  I notice it is the other lop eared cretins like yourself who offer only blather and no substance.

http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2005/12/2/01046/8384

Note that this website is wholly dedicated in promoting the repetative peak oil claim.

While you may install Chinese made wind turbines I am a mechanical trades project manager and a 27 year member of the United Association and I have forgotten more than you will ever know.

To: blogdog and Patrick henry

OK morons, I’ve don some of the work for you.  Log onto the OilDrum website and search abiotic oil.  My search found 41 relevant articles.  Read them yourselves.  Then, if you still believe that oil percolates up from the center of the earth, my only conclusion can be that you and your ilk are so profoundly stupid that it is amazing that you have made it this far.

http://www.gasresources.net/
© copyright 1996-1999,2000-2006, J. F. Kenney

from http://www.gasresources.net/Introduction.htm
An introduction to the modern petroleum science, and to the Russian-Ukrainian theory of deep, abiotic petroleum origins. - J. F. KENNEY
Russian Academy of Sciences - Joint Institute of The Physics of the Earth.
Gas Resources Corporation, 11811 North Freeway, Houston, TX 77060, U.S.A.

3.1. The scientific and technical papers:   

[...]
this paper describes experimental demonstration of the foregoing
theoretical predictions, whereby laboratory-pure solid marble (CaCO3), iron
oxide (FeO), wet with triple-distilled water, are subjected to pressures up to 50
kbar and temperatures to 2000 C.  With no contribution of either hydrocarbons
or biological detritus, the CaCO3-FeO-H2O system spontaneously generates,
at the high pressures predicted theoretically, the suite of hydrocarbons
characteristic of natural petroleum.
[...]

To: Patrick Henry

As suggested earlier, post your notion about abiotic oil at the OilDrum and wait for the barrage of criticism that will make my statements pale by comparison.  Tell me, seeing as you belittle some of the work that I have done building wind turbines, what is your skill set?  Can you build a house in which to live?  Can you prepare a garden and raise crops?  Have you ever built anything in your life?  Have ever done anything useful at all? 

Listen, you dick, you have no idea what the clue is.  Thus whole conversation began because people who believe there is any hope whatsoever in returning to a growth paradigm are so clueless that there is no hope.  If you have no strategic skills, a tiny number of which are mentioned above, then you are most certainly going to perish when the Walmart warehouse on wheels can’t get out of the parking lot because the expected oil tanker didn’t arrive on time.

What is so pathetic about your rejoinders is that you never address any of the specific points that I make.  I interpret your refusal to respond to the facts that I present as proof positive that your are intellectually challenged.  There can be no other explanation.  As I have stated previously the die-off can’t get here fast enough

Yes, its easy to see where the fertilizer for bdnumbers garden comes from, an unexhaustable supply of BS from his composter theory.

agreed, in general Americans are very poorly educated; again, the polemic is
suspect - some modest study of classical rhetoric would benefit the presentation,
though one can easily imagine problems that run much deeper

sincere regrets that the “two wonderful daughters” cited, are obliged to share such
a spiteful existence - working in the garden under the heavy hand of such a
wholly opinionated, joyless, arrogant, hot-tempered, unforgiving taskmaster, as
we’ve seen on exhibit herein, could certainly not be enviable

It is always interesting to see people veer off topic. The article was originally about people who are entrusted with power to serve an entity (by default serve the people because this is government people) .... and fail to serve that entity.

Argue about oil all you want… you’ll miss the train.

bdnumbers,

NOBODY in the petroleum industry believes that oil percolates up from the center of the earth!  Period!

How do you know, cite your sources or are we to believe some turbine wind installer knows what everyone in the POL industries thinks worldwide, what a croc.

You haven’t a clue, that’s evident.

one sure-fire sign of polemic desperation is the overwhelming urge toward ad
hominem invective - all those so compelled are immediately suspect - e.g:

...we have to deal with idiots like you.
Go to the head of the moron line.
You are such a putz.

Listen blogdog, I could give a shit about what you opine about ad hominem invective.  You can join Patrick Henry in the moron hall of fame.  A huge problem in this country is that the vast majority of people, and I have no reason not to include you in this group,  have no clue whatsoever about what makes the “american way of life” possible.  They don’t know from where food comes, how electricity flows to their hair dryers, how oil is extracted from the ground and countless other examples too numerous to list here.  Suffice it to say that americans are the best entertained and least well-informed people on the face of earth. 

Industrial society is collapsing around us because the energy resources that have made us “great” are no longer available in the quantity and quality to which we all have become accustomed and which, incidentally, allow society to tolerate useless people.  To ignore the unique role that energy plays in every aspect of life is sufficient reason to disqualify anyone holding such an uninformed opinion from participation in the discussion   When somebody interjects stupidity into the fray - in this particular instance abiotic oil - I become “desperate” because there is no fixing stupid.  The bad part of the first amendment is that, even though everyone is free to speak one’s mind, very few have anything worthwhile to say.  NOBODY in the petroleum industry believes that oil percolates up from the center of the earth!  Period!  To hold such a absolutely absurd opinion betrays the type of delusion that will prove to be fatal as the converging crises of climate change and petroleum depletion continue their inexorable and ruthless progression.  We have no time to abide “Jiminy Cricket” fantasies and offering vapid arguments about abiotic oil serves no useful purpose.

Do you have kids?  If you do you should be “desperate” too because the world my daughters will inherit will be demonstrably less friendly than the one I (and you, too, though I doubt we are from the same generation) enjoyed from childhood.  If you don’t think that is true then you, too, are an idiot.  And it is out of concern for my two wonderful daughters that I will continue to identify stupidity for what it is - a danger to the efforts to resist all of the madness, all of it man-made, that is genuinely driving us to the edge of a cliff over which we are all headed.

one sure-fire sign of polemic desperation is the overwhelming urge toward ad
hominem invective - all those so compelled are immediately suspect - e.g:

...we have to deal with idiots like you.
Go to the head of the moron line.
You are such a putz.

The Russians have been promoting abiotic theory for decades and have led in the design and engineering of deep well drilling for that time.  I trust their scientists and geologists opinion more than the coventional composters wisdom.

http://dprogram.net/2010/05/13/russia-proves-peak-oil-is-a-misleading-zionist-scam/

Up until the end of the Soviet Union no concern was given deep drilling technology but when Yukos was sold off to private investors that technology was on the market.

To:  Patrick Henry

Keep it up.  Your comments reinforce your lifetime membership in the mega-moron hall of fame.  Never worked in a gas station but have built hundreds of megawatts of utility-scale PV and wind systems.  And how did your garden fare this growing season?  Mine did wonderfully.

The die off can’t get here fast enough.  You are such a putz.

A rather big “if!”
Pardon me, but as one gets closer and closer to the center of the
earth doesn’t it get hotter and hotter? Wouldn’t the physical nature
of the earth from drilling too deep present some problems?  And
wouldn’t any oil be in a gaseous state at depths where it formed
from the liquid hydrocarbons as it traveled up any pipe drilled to
it?  I suppose if it were feasible, (which in reality it is not since the
natural earth heat would not permit any equipment to survive), it
would revert to a liquid state as it reached depths closer to the
earth’s surface and it cooled sufficiently.  But I don’t claim to know
much except the logic of the premises, and only what I learned in
science classes, ostensibly, then, I know nothing of the truth of the
content of the premises themeselves.  Nevertheless, I found the
argument between the two truthdippers very intriguing.

The actual 2004 Heinberg view offered a rather big “if!”  with many
footnotes.  See:
http://richardheinberg.com/richard-heinberg-on-abiotic-oil
for an extant Heinberg statement from his own mind.

One quote with humorous overtones, “There is indeed evidence
for deep methane on Earth: it vents from the mid-oceanic ridges,
presumably arising from the mantle, though the amount vented is
relatively small – less than the amount emitted annually in cow farts
(incidentally, there are persuasive biotic explanations for the origin
of this vented methane).”

For an answer to my question, please read paragraphs 4 and 5 of the
subsection of the Heinberg article: Oil at the Core?

No (abiotic) magic there, according to Heinberg, later on in the
article.  But in his Bottom Line conclusion, he does state he cannot
say absolutely there cannot be abiotic oil resources and takes the
provisionally skeptics attitude.  I admit before this forum I have never
been interested in this topic.  Ignorant as I am, I agree with Heinberg’s
final analysis “that more time spent debating highly speculative theories
can only distract us from exploring, and applying ourselves to, the
practical strategies that might preserve more of nature, culture, and
human life under the conditions that are rapidly developing.”

bd license plate,

If you were to remove the blather, straw man invective and wild ass conclusions in your posts you would have little to say.

Did you read Heinberg’s position? I did and thats why I posted it.  He is obviously much smarter than yourself as he leaves the door open on abiotic oil, he doesn’t know and neither do you regardless of your gas station attendant status.

If you are one of the know-it-all’s who are associated with offshore rigs like the deep water horizon then you are also one of the jackasses who are responsible for it causing the mass pollution that it did, explain that.  Whats next screw up the Arctic?

The deep water horizon the most advanced in the business, hardly. You need to research that statement more alot more, your credibility as the shell answer man is at stake.

To: Patrick Henry

Are you trying further demonstrate your stupendous ignorance?  Did you even read the link?  (By the way I have been reading Heinberg steadily since the publication of The Party’s Over several years ago.  He is resident scholar at the Post Petroleum Institute.  You can read his new book, The End of Growth, in excerpts at EnergyBulletin.net.  Be forewarned; articles there are intended for above 5th grade reading and comprehension level.) 

You direct me to a blog that substantiates the validity of my argument!  I mean, really, what is your point?  If you read the article and came away with the conclusion that Heinberg believes that oil is abiotic then you are even more stupid than I previously believed.  Maybe that’s your problem.  You read something, anything really, and then completely ignore the thrust of the article and twist it to fit your notions.  Some of this stuff is comical.  People believe - as in believing in god - that there is this oil source way, way down there and all we have to do is drill deeply enough to get to it.  Now, the fact that abiotic oil has actually never been extracted from where you claim it to be is a problem best dealt with by ignoring it, kind of the way that the 9/11 commission dealt with WTC7.  We just have to believe hard enough and the technology to drill hundreds or even thousands of MILES - not feet but MILES - into the earth’s crust will miraculously be developed and, magically, the oil problem is solved.  Are you so dim that you’ve forgotten about the Deep Water Horizon continuing debacle?  The most sophisticated drilling platform in the industry lies at the bottom of the Gulf of Mexico, a charred ruin, in a mere 5,000 feet of water because the geophysical forces it encountered simply overwhelmed it.  The forces that are encountered during deep drilling into the earth’s crust are the primary reasons why geologists have barely penetrated the earth’s mantle.  Quit watching Jurassic Park and Journey to the Center of the Earth.  Your steady diet of video games and Harry Potter books is ruining your mind.     

You sound like the guys that say that there is water on Mars so when we go there we can make fuel out of it.  The funny part is that homo sapiens is NOT going to Mars or even back to the Moon so who cares if there is water on Mars.  The same logic applies to the idea that abiotic oil exists at the core of the planet.  We have no means, nor will they ever exist, of drilling to the depths necessary to disprove your theory.  The resources for such enterprises have long since been squandered fighting endless wars to secure the energy resources that we know for sure exist and there is no doubt whatsoever that their lifespans are coming to an end.  Here’s a suggestion.  Pose your ideas about abiotic oil over at the OilDrum site and see what kind of responses you’d get there.  You’d be eaten alive there by the people who actually work in the oil extraction industry.  Doubtless, you’d dismiss their repudiations as flat-earthers and smarty-pants scientists who don’t know anything. 

And your insinuation that I have a “flat-earth” mentality is so insane.  From my comments how could you possibly come to that conclusion?  I believe in the scientific method, a belief derived from my education as a biologist and scientist.  The scientific method substantiates every statement I make.  It is incumbent upon the questioner to provide evidence to disprove an accepted theory.  Besides a link to some article in Popular Science you’re going to have to come up with something more substantial about abiotic oil.  Until you do I’d suggest another topic because you are over your head in any discussion about energy.

ETNIKS - “...with all due respect, I think we have to start facing
the stark facts.”  You could earn respect if you gave some facts
yourself.  Your comments offer opinion only. 

The ability of the government to print paper money is expressly
not a Constitutional right.  Nevertheless, we all use “U.S.” dollar
bills everyday.

An original draft of the Constitution specifically permitted the
government not only to borrow money, as noted in Article 1,
Section 8, Clause 2, but it also may “emit bills.”  In Madison’s
Notes (Aug. 16, 1787), the subject of paper money was
hotly debated. Governor Morris warned that if paper money
was authorized, “The Monied interest will oppose the plan of
Government.” But John Mercer thought it unwise to “deny such
discretion on this point.” Others thought paper money was what
we would call a deal-killer. George Read called it the “mark of the
Beast,” and John Langdon said he’d rather reject the entire plan of
federal money than include the text in the Constitution. On a 9-2
vote, the words were struck.

We have to ask how is it possible for us to pay for anything with paper
money today? And why isn’t all legal currency coins with inherent value,
like silver and gold?  Well as it turned out:  It was seen that gold and
silver are not a cure-all.  The problems of paper money are outweighed
by the corrupt manipulation of purity and weights, not to mention
convenience.

During the Civil War, the Supreme Court ruled on the question of
government printed money. In Knox v Lee, 79 U.S. 457 (1871), the Court
ruled that paper money was NOT unconstitutional: “The Constitution
nowhere declares that nothing shall be money UNLESS made of metal.” 
But the Court argued that the Congress can manipulate the value of
precious metals to the point where it can be rendered as inherently
worthless as paper (the Congress could enact a law that says that 10-
dollar silver coins weigh 400 grains in one year and 500 grains the next,
effectively devaluing the silver). The Court even noted the arguments of
the Framers against “emitting bills,” but wrote that the Framers could not
anticipate all governmental needs, and allowed the Congress to do what
was necessary and proper to carry out its powers. In this case, that
includes printing paper money.

So, said the Court, even though paper money is not expressly permitted
by the Constitution, it is also not expressly forbidden, and in spite of the
extra-constitutional opinions of some of the Framers, the ability to print
paper money is a necessary and proper power of the federal government. 
Paper money is a federal promissory note, where the government
promises to pay on demand in precious metal coin the face value of the
note.  Read your dollar.

Without a doubt it is part of a larger, right-wing, anti-government
anti-liberal effort that has spawned a myriad of state lawsuits really
aimed at all of the social programs one of which is having health-
care reform declared unconstitutional, disenfranchising 30,000,000
Americans now covered by health care that lifted that burden from the
general taxpayer, proposed bills that would allow states to opt out of
the Affordable Care Act. This is only one issue on the Blatta Republican
agenda.  This is a scary bit of theater Americans against which to defend
themselves.

bd license plate.

Are you a shell gas station attendent?  just how do you know how oil is created?
The jury is still out on that since we can’t drill to the depths required.  The fact that geologists of various nations still debate oils origin belies any ‘proof’ you have presented here besides a glimpse of your own hubris.

I think you have more in common with the 9/11 truth deniers than I do.

Your ‘earth is flat’ mentality underscores the narrowmindedness which permeates society today.

http://richardheinberg.com/richard-heinberg-on-abiotic-oil

To: Patrick Henry

Go to the head of the moron line.  There is NO evidence of abiotic oil, none whatsoever!  This idea is a canard similar to that foisted on the public by climate change deniers funded entirely by the Koch brothers/criminals.  Where do you people come from?  Fossil fuels - oil, coal and methane - are the partially decomposed remains of flora and fauna from who knows how many millions of years ago subjected to extraordinary geophysical forces that pounded these remains into the energy dense fuels on which economic activity is based.  Oil (and the methane that is always found with oil) are the remains of aquatic life; coal is the remains of terrestrial life.  There is NO argument that contradicts this well established biophysical certainty.  Think Gravity. 

Your comments underscore the desperate state of scientific illiteracy among the citizenry.  Think about your statement for a minute.  You actually believe that the center of the earth is some kind of nugget of goo that somehow migrates to within extraction depths and that it rejuvenates itself ad infinitum?  Society faces unimaginable perturbations as peak oil relentlessly exerts itself into the current circumstance that manifests itself as economic collapse and idiots like you clutter up the conversation with stupidity and ignorance.  You and your ilk would have done well to have taken some kind of science class during your formative years.  Having done so would have spared the increasingly small number of intelligent citizens from being subjected to your nonsense. 

It really comes as no surprise that you hold such ignorant ideas.  You are the same guy who argues that fires brought down the WTC towers.  And what’s with your username?  Patrick Henry?  You insult his legacy.  Patrick Henry, like so many of his contemporaries, embraced truth based on evidence.  And the V mask as your avatar?  Give me a break! 

Energy dense fossil fuels has allowed society to tolerate the existence of useless people and you are living, walking and writing evidence of this unfortunate situation.  Fortunately, peak oil will quickly thin the herd and I’m betting you’ll be one of the first to go.

PS There is no longer any time for civility.  Your ideas threaten those of us who really have solutions to the converging calamities of oil depletion, climate change and economic collapse.  (There is NO solution to climate change, only adaptation.)  By interjecting completely idiotic ideas into the fray you provide fodder for the small minded - the vast majority of the american public - to question scientific certainties etched in stone.  To wit: the faster-than-the-speed-of-light neutrino.  That story lasted for a nanosecond before being relegated to the dust bin of stupidity.  And for a moment I bet you were actually waiting for time travel.  If I had any empathy I would feel sorry for you and your ilk.  I fell nothing but contempt.

PSS Russions is actually spelled Russians.  I can understand why you don’t proofread your posts.  Doing so might cause you to rethink your ideas.  Naw, that’s not going to happen.

bd6951

“The depth of ignorance of your remarks is astounding”

Actually I believe it is your information which is faulty.  The Russions proved abiotic oil decades ago by their superior deep drilling techniques. 

http://viewzone.com/abioticoilx.html

Imagine being able to drill oil anywhere as long as the well is deep enough.

JD…i’m sympathetic to some of what you say. 

concerning the Koch bro’s:  the economist michael
hudson has been pointing out for years how taxes have
shifted from land and capital to labor.  you advocate
nationalizing Koch landholdings.  if their land was
assessed by competent geologists and economists and
the gov’t taxed that land in accordance with its
potential productive value, i’d be satisfied with
allowing the Kochs to hold onto that land and just
allow them to reap a steady return somewhat like
utilities do.  their land would be taxed at a much
higher rate than now and those taxes could be used to
benefit the public good.  henry george wrote about
this approach in the late 19th century and he had a
huge following.  everyone in alaska gets something
like $2000 annually from their oil resources…it
would work something like that.

when you look at capitalism, you see one totalizing
‘ism’.  i see finance capitalists (investment
bankers, bondholders) and i see the industrial
capitalists.  the finance capitalists have to be cut
down to size.  exactly how this will be done i don’t
know; but i do know that it HAS to be done.  as long
as industrial capitalists work within the ecological
constraints of the planet, i’d allow them relatively
free rein.  google ray anderson to find out what a
force for good an industrial capitalist can be.

on a more general level, can’t one value both the
common good AND individuality?  isn’t it each
generation’s task to find a life-sustaining balance
between the two?

before getting hammered into oblivion, let me say: these are not my words, but
seem pertinent to the reaction posted By bd6951, September 30 at 11:36 am

http://tinyurl.com/5z7cfd

Raymond J. Learsy
Scholar and Author of ‘Over a Barrel: Breaking Oil’s Grip on Our Future’
Posted: August 14, 2008 06:37 AM

The comments to the post were wide ranging and the Peak Oil missionaries
were apoplectic that one dared question their gospel intoning the sanctity of
the biological origin of fossil fuels and its rapidly diminishing availability.
Clearly the words “Abiotic Oil” stir up heated passions and clear concern among
those in the oil patch who would be impacted were the theory to take hold. My
post highlighted the issue without offering an opinion on Abiotic Oil Theory’s
viability. It did however attempt to outline the reasons why the oil industry
would happily not have the concept of “Abiotic Oil” taken with any grain of
seriousness.

RE: Amon Drool, September 29 at 1:30 pm

“…industrial capitalists do have to be held in check to a degree, but at least they produce something and employ people.”

Secondary definition of Capitalist: “A person who is an advocate for capitalism.” I am an opponent of capitalism.

Consider Koch Industries; Koch Industries is a privately held company owned by two brothers who built their 45 billion dollar empire on the multi-millions left to them by their father. Koch Industries employs a mere 50,000 people in the U.S., and another 20,000 people world wide, which is a tiny fraction of the employed. Koch Industries (i.e. the two brothers) has spent nearly a billion dollars shaping public policy, an amount that rivals the cost to be elected President of the United States. The bulk of the Koch brother’s wealth has been derived from harvesting our nation’s natural resources; natural resources that should be considered the property of we the people and not the property of the two brothers. The idea that the Koch brothers can manage our natural resources in a way that serves the welfare of the people better and more efficiently than could our government, guided by our elected representatives, is an idea that I will dispute most vociferously. The Nationalization of the commons and all industries on which the public welfare depends would be the epitome of democracy, and diminish the inordinate and corrupting influence capitalism has on our democracy.

Any all powerful governing system that values individualism over the common welfare is destined for perfidy and to be an immense obstacle to social justice and the common welfare. An organization of society based on usury and the overriding power of inordinate wealth only serves the philosophy of greed. Capitalism has been the primary driving engine and the facilitator of mankind’s calamities and tragedies over the last half millennium. Any perceived benefits that are considered attributable to capitalism are far outweighed by the human suffering that has resulted from capitalism: Destabilization of the world, colonialism, slavery, ethnic strife, genocide, wars of all stripes and varieties and much more, have been facilitated by, if not the products of, capitalism. The magnitude of the depredations caused by capitalist philosophy can never be undone, but moving forward, the depredations of capitalism can be first minimized, and can in the future be perceived as an anachronism similar to Autocracy, slavery, etc.

The belief that capitalism is responsible for all of mankind’s advances can only be conjecture. It can rightly be argued that capitalism has been a hindrance to mankind’s advancement, on many, many, levels.

Moving forward, progress, even mankind’s very existence is contingent upon eliminating the depredations of capitalism, such might seem like an insurmountable task, but achieving that task is simply a matter of creating a new paradigm in philosophical thinking. The difficult task will be convincing the masses to abandon reactionary counter productive thinking; a reactionary thinking that is a detriment to the welfare of mankind and a reactionary thinking that threatens our very existence. It is a futile hope that we alive today will witness the achieving of a new paradigm, but we alive today can work to eliminate the depredations of capitalism, effecting change where possible and also serve as the harbingers of a new and better paradigm. Such is our existential and humanitarian duty, and if those considerations are seen as being insufficient to motivate, then no additional inducements are available without delving into the realm of the metaphysical. Man is not God, but it might well be that man has the responsibilities of a God. Are we the Gods of virtue, or the Gods of destruction? Based on irreligious science, and the realities of global conflict, it appears that we are now, and have been, functioning as the Gods of destruction.

To: FRTothus

The depth of ignorance of your remarks is astounding.  There is NO evidence whatsoever that oil is “abiotic’.  Like climate change there is no “other side” in the discussion as to the origin of fossil fuels.  I have no respect for anyone who holds such a moronic belief.  Not only do we have to deal with peak oil we have to deal with idiots like you.  Little wonder this country is doomed.

The basic problem is that the “leaders” all believe themselves to be from some distant “upper” class. It matters less what party backs them other than the degree to which they owe allegiance to corporations and their lobbyists. 

We always vote for the lesser of two evils - we pick Dems because they marginally favor business less than Repugs do.  (Emphasis on “marginally”.)  Sometimes a rare Repug comes along who seems to favor social justice a bit - but we are almost always disappointed with ANY choice - hence the recent 80% polling disapproval of Congress. 

The deck has been tricked long, long ago - only the ultra-wealthy even run for office, along with the out-and-out scoundrels.  Representative government was a nice theory ...... while it lasted.

@bd6951

It is worth considering that “Peak Oil” is yet another lie in the midst of so many others.  There is a great deal of evidence to suggest that oil is abiotic, not a “fossil” by-product at all.  Wells which were once pronounced “dry” actually have oil in them again.  This is not to say that the amount that is being pumped and burned does not exceed the earth’s capacity to replenish it, nor is it to suggest that we ought not to seek sources which do not cause the damage to our air, water and soils that petroleum does, but rather, that assumptions that serve the ruling and owning classes and perpetuate exploitative policies (such as “peak oil” does) ought to be examined and challenged, and nothing should be assumed to be true simply because it is widely believed, especially when there is evidence to the contrary.
Respect.

Robert Scheer, with all due respect, I think we have to start facing the stark facts.
When you said
“Bernanke, along with then-New York Fed President Timothy Geithner, helped implement the Bush strategy of saving the banks” gives the impression that Obama has not been doing the very same, and worse.

Please check ALL these lessons by Damon Vrabel with what I consider the very best explanation of how the world really works.

Damon Vrabel     Renaissance 2.0
http://csper.org/renaissance-20.html

Both parties are part of the same power structure controlled by debt produced in the creation of the currency.  A system designed and controlled by the few families that have been at it for more than 300 years. 
The system is called Fractional Reserve Banking and the bond holders are the controllers.  The Stock Market is actually a mere spec in their much larger power structure.

OBAMA IS A TROJAN HORSE, MUCH WORSE THAN BUSH.

To solve the terrible mess we are today that threatens to not only collapse free society, but to involve us all in a terrible war, we have to WAKE UP and stop playing their rigged game of “democracy”, pitting one side against the other politically.
The REAL action is happening behind the curtains in the Shadow Banking with the 600 trillion dollar derivatives market and we as individuals have to STOP PLAYING THAT GAME.

One possible solution is the creation of local currencies completely disconnected from the Fractional Reserve Banking System.

Time is of the essence, the collapse will make people panic and irrationality will take precedent over reason.

Robert Scheer, with all due respect, I think we have to start facing the stark facts.
When you said
“Bernanke, along with then-New York Fed President Timothy Geithner, helped implement the Bush strategy of saving the banks” gives the impression that Obama has not been doing the very same, and worse.

Please check ALL these lessons by Damon Vrabel with what I consider the very best explanation of how the world really works.

Damon Vrabel     Renaissance 2.0
http://csper.org/renaissance-20.html

Both parties are part of the same power structure controlled by debt produced in the creation of the currency.  A system designed and controlled by the few families that have been at it for more than 300 years. 
The system is called Fractional Reserve Banking and the bond holders are the controllers.  The Stock Market is actually a mere spec in their much larger power structure.

OBAMA IS A TROJAN HORSE, MUCH WORSE THAN BUSH.

To solve the terrible mess we are today that threatens to not only collapse free society, but to involve us all in a terrible war, we have to WAKE UP and stop playing their rigged game of “democracy”, pitting one side against the other politically.
The REAL action is happening behind the curtains in the Shadow Banking with the 600 trillion dollar derivatives market and we as individuals have to STOP PLAYING THAT GAME.

One possible solution is the creation of local currencies completely disconnected from the Fractional Reserve Banking System.  This will create instant liquidity and goods and services will flow, promoting new jobs and economic expansion.

Time is of the essence, the collapse will make people panic and irrationality will take precedent over reason.

If you don’t have power it is easy to fall into the seduction of
expectation and come to depend on a figmented social conscience
to “take care of things.”  Humans are prone to crave parental care
as a collective as much as the do individually.  Humans are dependent
animals who obliviously rely on mere mortals to have the wisdom of
the ages who are able like some Hercules, like a superhero,
to “fix” everything even when the perpetrator of evil is a hydra with a
hundred heads that when one head is cut off another hundred takes
its place. 

That is the analogy that faced Obama when he came into the office
of President and the thousand-and-one serious problems spawned by
the rapaciousness and fury of the predatory 21st century Republicans. 
He did set himself up as a savior, a fault with which all politicians are
afflicted, but the people are also at fault for being blinded by the Lone
Ranger syndrome who make the mistake of a surplus of expectation
that this one man could put the box called our American life that was
turned upside down by the Corporatocrats back to its correct plan of
action.  But their fault is meliorated by ignorance and indoctrination to
be reliant on magic and the supernatural.  (Don’t forget even the Lone
Ranger had his trusty sidekick Tonto).

When the Lone Black Man actually got to Washington, and I don’t think
anyone was more surprised than he was that he actually got there, the
mountain was higher and more treacherous than he had imagined with
trolls hiding behind every rock and every tree with their cross bows of
death at the ready to deal fatal blows no matter what he tried to save the
sinking ship of state.

How was he to craft a cabinet of departmentally responsible individuals,
a set of advisors, a cadre of assistants who would have the wisdom and
skill to deliver this country out of the shithole that it had been put in by
the truly contemptible avaricious and carnivorous Republicans?  And it
wasn’t just a simple shithole, it was a multishithole for every single area
of government that is its stewardship, its security, its finances, its
people’s rights, its education, its health, its infrastructure…every one
of these the Republicans have assaulted like debauched rapists.  Their
gluttony for power and control was nearly omnipotent and for decades
the American people have been made to suffer deeply and pervasively
from being economically ravaged by the exploiters and manipulators
who have shredded every ounce of integrity the common people had. 
And we have all witnessed it, and took every opportunity to denigrate the
chosen one for not being in alphabetic order the Absolute Being, All
Knowing, All Powerful, Allah, Almighty, Creator, Divine Being, Father,
God , Holy Spirit, Infinite Spirit, Jehovah, King of Kings, Lord, Maker,
Yahweh. 

This man is simply a man as all men are simply men.  He is, I judge,
a daredevil, a semi-god, a combatant, a champion who is acutely
conscious, who looks over a sea of ugly political, and racist mind you,
faces and understands that this country is one that is mixed and diverse
and thought, in retrospect mistakenly but now knows better, he could
invite the disparate factions to transcend their partisanship and actually
restore the balance to the deadly illness the country fell into from the
relentless resolve of a political machine that would strip everything they
could that would provide a sound life for the majority of the people, so
that they could continue to impose their policy of slavery.

As always there is not a single mention in any of these comments of the role that ENERGY - read OIL - plays in the collapse of the growth paradigm.  Without high quality energy resources economic activity, let alone growth, is IMPOSSIBLE. 

Here’s an idea on which to chew.  Energy and money are exactly the same thing.  Indeed, the only real purpose of money is to “buy” energy.  Energy, the forms of which that are essential for all economic activity, are finite.  Energy supplies can not be grown.  Therefore, money supplies can only be “grown” by ignoring the thermodynamic limitations that govern all activities that constitute the “non-negotiable American way of life” and that is the crux of the problem.  We live in a country dominated by a group of people who deny the science of oil depletion and climate change.  From where I stand it is ignorance about the huge role that Peak Oil is playing in ongoing financial collapse that is the source of the problems that are extant in all developed societies. 

As the seminal band Tower of Power so prophetically sang in 1972 “There’s Only So Much Oil in the Ground”.  Failure to recognize Peak Oil as the true reason why all discussions of economic “recovery” are absurd and betrays the ignorance of bankers and economists.  Any program that fails to include this MOST important concept is DOA.

Emma Lazarus, dear poet, your sonnet is rust. Read now the new US tabula ansata:

...just like the brazen giants of Greece and Rome,
whose want, lust and malice raped life and land
here at our toxic sea-washed, walls and gates does stand
a mighty whore with a torch, whose flame
is Capitalism’s lightning, and her name is Greed.

From her beacon-hand glows world-wide scorn and hubris beyond compare;
her militarized eyes command the polluted harbors that excrement now frames.
“I’ll take your ancient lands, you heathen mobs!” cries she with drone lips. “Render unto me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
the wretched histories of your once teeming shores.
These, the homeless, tempest-tost, the minerals and lands and all who wander on them, I’ll take as mine, and
I’ll piss on them….

Examinator: With all respect, they called him in off the campaign trail to line up the Dems for a railroading of the TARP - when he was done with them they knew they had no choice: either get onboard or get run over - Obomber was Wall Street’s boy, long before he set foot in the Oval Office.

as for the avatar…  BASO said to a monk, “If I see you have a staff, I will give it to you. If I see you have no staff, I will take it away from you.”

Maybe we should change the words we use. Instead of trusting our leaders… lets trust our representatives.

Call it like it is might help… they do work for us so let us take that back.

What is it going to take to get these guys out of the bubble they live in?

PS
Blogdog your avatar is both insulting to democracy and internally contradictory.
You seem to be saying come to democracy or we’ll bomb the s*** out of you.
Just a matter of fact that wouldn’t be democracy that’s dictatorial i.e. do it our way or else!
True democracy, an intangible ideal can’t take root by force it must come from within or as soon at the force goes so does ‘democracy’....Vietnam, Iraq 1&2, Afghanistan the US support for the democratic joke that was Egypt the Shar of Iran et al.
The truth know no man made boundaries.

Whoa up there marines before “we give the condemned accused a fair trial and hang em” (judge Roy Bean). Let’s take a look at reality…not what we want it to be or the 20/20 of hind sight.
Firstly Obama is only the President of the US not some omnipotent world dictator or a god.
He is constrained by the US democratic(?) **system**!

There is only so much he could/can control.
Think about it the GFC those toxic derivatives weren’t his doing…he just had to clean up the mess.

Secondly it was Bush, the Neocom(poops?), corporate greed, ideology and specifically Greenspan that allowed the mess to coagulate and go foetid.

Let’s get real it’s easier to take away controls and taxes et al than add them.

Even given Dem control at the time of Obama taking Presidency. His ability to push through a better outcome was virtually non existent.

Under the US system absolute party discipline is tenuous at best especially given that the reps/senators have individual pressures…re election, local interests and of course access to money support.
Much as it seems incongruous to most of us there are great swathes of individuals who are more interested in themselves that the nation/world (the BS anti ACC[AGW] debarcle proves that).

If my memory serves even the package passed was fought. Give the above bitter intransigence to the ACC by those with vested interests and the easily manipulated consider what the shrieks that would have exploded if Obama took the hard line with the financial market…...nothing short of a world financial Collapse and civil war were the obvious PROBABLE outcomes. Keep in mind that the recalcitrant in the south still brood over the Civil war (how many confederate flags etc do you see down there) and that war was essentially over the obscenity of slavery and the perceived impact on the south’s wealth structures.  If the Republicans felt that big govt was dictating to business look out! And you think partisanship is OTT now! One of the sureties in human nature is it propensity to self destruct .n emotion over rational issues… Any body disagree?

Ad to that Democrat or Republican they both subscribe to the myopic and distorted notion of Capitalism and that growth is infinite in a finite closed system.

Put simply the two systems of the bizarre version of US democracy and economics coalesce to provide the current quagmire.

In truth things can change but it will take a majority of the *people* to tell their politicians, colloquially, to pull their fingers out, stop sitting their sniffing them and declaring that their s*** doesn’t stink and do what they’re paid to do represent the all people not just those who manipulate public opinion.

The founding fathers wanted government by the competent not the ignorant and or the richest via distorted a popularity contest
Now that is a good concept I wonder what we could call it…... ’ intended constitutional democracy’ perhaps.

yeah - that of his future cell mate

@ Patrick

Penis size?

This is a good article, allowing for the agenda of the author.. Many of the comments are thought provoking..

I’m wondering after reading this and many other Scheer articles.. how much does he have invested in California real estate? Is he or his family in the Real Estate business? That ‘business’ is by itself as much responsible for the current economic broken-bubble as anything else.

Mr. Scheer offers us his same analysis.. ‘we bailed out the banks’ but should have ‘bailed out the home mortgages’.. Isn’t there at least one other option? NO BAILOUT AT ALL.. If people gambled on their properties becoming more valuable and lost.. why should we bail them out?

He’s correct that the TARP and other initiatives have benefited the CEOS.. he asks for mortgage bailouts.. who would that benefit? Realtors and property speculators?

Fact is the Government is right now the biggest underwriter of home loans in California. And they allow a larger mortgage than most anywhere else. Californians are crying over some new rules limiting the total amount average taxpayer across the nation will ante-up for home loans there? That amount would buy three average family homes here!

Suck it up, California.. you have a beautiful state, I have many memories of good times there in your fabulous parks and blue Pacific waters.. But live within your means.. That goes for public planners, home buyers and policy pundits!

Adios!

Amon, It was different from other business cycles. If you had been around in the 1930’s you may
have gotten that feeling of deja vu. There was no Great Depression until the government got involved, it was a stock market crash. There was no GREAT recession until after 2008 until the government got involved, it was housing crash.

The government manipulation of banks and our money supply has wreaked havoc, Capitalism didn’t fail, people did. And the Dodd-Frank bill has enshrined the Federal government into the Financial system forever to continue to wreak havoc at will.

Thomas Sowell’s “Back to the Future” sums it up better than I ever could.

http://james-freedomrules.blogspot.com/2011/09/thomas-sowells-back-to-future.html

Capitalists need to be controlled. I don’t like them very much. Generally, they’re
boring, but necessary. Like the police or the military. Russia was saved from them
by Putin. The Chinese shoot them when they become too greedy. I myself prefer
the Chinese method. Still, I have this fatal attraction for democracy. I’m beginning
to think it’s a weakness. But the Scandinavians seemed to have solved the
problem. It gives me hope. Then, again, shooting them is so tempting.

Robert Scheer,          9/29/2011
    The patriarchal government ponders,while aloft
in their Ivory Tower,should the official epistle be
delayed informing the ungrateful peasants of their
miserable condition?
    Thanking you for this opportunity to comment -
    James M. de Laurier

JD…trying to figure out what went down with the
economy and banks in 2007/2008 is difficult.  i was
born in 1948 and what happened in 2008 just felt
different from other ‘business’ cycles that i had
lived through. thus, i had a felt need to get some
understanding of what had happened.

you say that the the big banks borrowed money from
the FED instead of having that money given to them.
technically you’re right.  but how did this borrowing
play out?  the big banks borrowed this money from the
FED at rates between .50% and .25%.  the big banks
then turned around and bought US Treasuries (the US
gov’t feels it has to borrow to cover its needs
instead of just printing debt-free money, but that’s
another issue) at between 2 and 3 % interest.  the
FED then bought these Treasuries from the big banks
through their ‘quantitative easing’ programs enabling
the banks to make a quick 2% profit.  now 2% may not
seem like much, but when you’re talking about 15
trillion in play, that 2% adds up.  in effect, the
FED pretty much gave money away to insolvent
institutions just to build up their assets. 
socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor
(under-water home owners)  what’s new?

towards the end of your post, you rail (like some
other commenters here) against ‘Capitalist
Imperialists’.  the imperialists i see are mainly
banking houses who have been given the right by the
federal reserve act of 1913 to create our money
supply pretty much out of thin air through fractional
reserve banking.  industrial capitalists do have to
be held in check to a degree, but at least they
produce something and employ people.  finance
capitalists capitalists have become per taibbi
‘blood-sucking vampire squid’.

and you are right…all we can do is press for reform
against all odds.

Ben’s solution for unemployment is “more college degrees” as seen on a 60 minutes interview.

Just what the US needs,a glut more indebted college educated social science experts for the media to look to unlock the ‘mystery’ that is the collapse of US capitalism.

Since the “crisis” 0f 2008 all we have heard are talking points of the elite rich as to why unemployment remains high :
high taxes, over-regulation, Greece, oil prices, European debt, Japanese
earthquakeand nuclear disaster, QE2, U.S. debt, Libya, Arab Spring, China,   
currency manipulation, commodity prices, investor mood, Housing prices….
are all causing uncertainty.
My point is that the economy will only grow from demand and confidence.
And with confidence constantly undermined by the media ,demand is destroyed and jobs are not created. A self-fulfilling prophesy .
How about a 36 hour work week to create more jobs?
A 10% reduction in hours should result in new hiring.
I can already hear the ‘elite’ deride that as too European.

Who’s going to tell the truth. Only 4.3% of the $46
billion allocated by TARP to aid home owners
refinance has been used as of Spring 2011.

AIG was ‘given’ $180 billion and, to date, no one has
demanded an accounting of its present whereabouts.

Of course, Bernanke’s ‘take’ on transparency of the
dealings (how about shenanigans) of the financial
sector, was, “It would be counter-productive.” 
Right, Ben, counter to the criminal activities
rampant in the financial sector - and counting.

Not having a Doctoral Degree in economics, and not even having taken a College level economics course, I find the details and jargon of high finance unfathomable, but it is my understanding that the banking institutions “borrowed” trillions from the FED’s Over the Counter Window, the FED loaned to the banking institutions, the FED did not give trillions to banking institutions.

When I read that the total amount of global derivatives equals a quadrillion dollars and is 7 times the combined GDP’s of all the countries in the world I can only wonder, what does it all mean? Is the long predicted collapse of Capitalism upon us?

Suggesting that Obama and Bernanke are just now becoming aware of unemployment strikes me as being a kind of demagoguery. It should be pointed out that all legislative efforts at job creation have been obstructed by Republicans in Congress. Republicans in States across the nation have been busily engaged in eliminating government jobs, there-by increasing national unemployment rates. State government budgets could have been brought more into balance by tax policy, but such is anathema to Republican ideologues. Republican ideologues seem to prefer unemployment to “shared sacrifice.” Unemployment drains government coffers by reducing revenues, and also decreases demand in markets.

However, as I see it, classical Keynesian economics is not as valid as it once was due to the global economy. Stimulating our economy will in the final analysis enrich the coffers of Multi-National corporations, and stimulate the markets in the countries which produce the products we consume, resulting in a transference of our tax revenues to Multi-Nationals and to low wage foreign countries that produce the goods we consume.

Be that as it may, significant economic stimulus has next to no support in Congress, and can not be accomplished under present political realities; austerity, not prosperity, is the governing economic philosophy today.

Withdrawal from participation in the IMF and WTO, investing in, and protecting, U.S. manufacturing, local service industries, and investing in infrastructure may be our only hope of salvaging the U.S. economy short term and long term, but there is insufficient political will for such, and only Democrats offer anything vaguely similar to such an economic philosophy.

The U.S. is the center of Capitalist Imperialism and the possibility that the U.S. will withdraw from participation in Capitalist Imperialism appears to be nothing but an idealistic pipe dream. The belief that Capitalist Imperialism only serves the interests of Multi-National Corporations and not the people of the U.S., or the world, escapes public debate and is only subject for debate by esoteric intellectuals whose voices are never given a hearing by the bureaucracy of the Corporate owned media, and such debates, where they are heard, are confounded by complexities of jargon and concepts, disagreeable to, and beyond comprehension by many who do hear such debates.

I suppose that the existential truth will come to the fore one way or another, we appear to have the options of allowing the status quo to proceed unencumbered, or of pressing for reform against all odds.

Most of Us weren’t trusting anybody, We saw this BS for what it was. Barry made so many promises, then the lying started almost right away.
The morass that is D.C. subverts all who enter it.

first:  am I the only one who resents the ubiquitous use of the editorial ‘we’,
in this case, suggesting these were ‘The Men [I] Trusted to Lead [me]’?

second:  ... If you still need confirmation of just how decisive a betrayal those
appointments were, check out Ron Suskind’s new book, “Confidence Men,” ...

Robert, that sounds like a ‘conspiracy theory’ - should we now expect to see
heavy derision directed at you here from those so quick at the draw to shoot down
any comment suggesting a ‘conspiracy’ might be at play?

CJ: “TARP WAS necessary in order to stave off
complete ruin, the likes of which Americans couldn’t
imagine.”

in a credit economy, it was necessary to do something
at the time.  businesses that functioned close to the
margin needed credit, but as dean baker points out,
the FED was empowered through law to buy short time
commercial paper from troubled but solvent
businesses.  when buying commercial paper was an
option to keep the economy from grinding to a halt, i
can’t see how one can assert that TARP was necessary.

CJ: “But to say that it would have been better to let
America’s biggest banks go under is just nutty…”

in the late eighties, we let the S&L’s go under with
hardly any major economic dis-location.  economists
of all stripes have noted that in 2008 most of the
big banks were insolvent if audited according to
mark-to-market rules.  the big banks could have been
put into gov’t receivership.  what value they still
had could have been given to creditors following
current bankruptcy laws.  this is how sweeden wound
down some of its private banks debt in the early 90’s.  the
US has followed a path of just kicking the can down
the road.

“Life is an upstream, not an uphill, battle, and it results in just one story: how, and alongside whom, one used his paddle.” —I forget who wrote that .. I read it in a book review.

The real problem we have today is that we really do not have a choice in our future. The game is rigged.

And there is a gathering stom…............

As for legalizing Wall Street’s already then out of control licentiousness the ways that every president since Richard Nixon has, what Obama was doing was in keeping with the very thing he proclaimed he was going into the presidency to undo: “the ways things are done.”

This was not mere hypocrisy.  It was an outright lie.

Campaigning on designer lies has become the only winning formula for presidential elections.

The big gamble is now on who can sell the most vote-getting inside-the-Wall-Street-Washington,-D.C.-Beltway designed lie.

Obama’s 2012 campaign is in a permanent stall because so many of us who voted for him in 2008 now know he is only fumbling around in the campaign because he cannot yet find the “right” designer lie that he can sell us.

Apparently, neither Bernanke nor Obama have discovered the jobs crisis; they are only mouthing sentiment that will (they hope) get Obama re-elected.  To say that “We’ve had close to 10 percent unemployment now for a number of years, and of the people who are unemployed, about 45 percent have been unemployed for six months or more,” Bernanke said. “This is unheard of.” is to speak an official untruth; it is not half of the truth of the official numbers about unemployment.

Paul Craig Roberts, a Reagan economist, tells a more accurate version: “the US unemployment rate as of December 2010 was 22.4%”

See: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=22706

But, Robert they are still there….still leading us…...but at this point there should be no
doubt about where that leadership is taking us…has taken us…

Then here are the delusions by which we have set our course….delusions that we will
eventually and painfully have to let go of..

Democrat, Republican, Conservative, Progressive…these words don’t really mean
anything there just convenient short hand forms of manipulation…

This country is banrupt at the hands of the elite, just as bankrupt as Greece, Spain,
Italy, Portugal, and soon Brittain and France.. They and we will not be able to borrow
our way out of this mess…The elite as Mr. Hedges has pointed out innumerable times
are not capable of solving the mess they created, they simple don’t understand what to
do…

Stand up and wake up America. OCCUPY WALL STREET while we still have any
chance of getting anything close to a Democracy back. The Oligarchs are winning.  The
Shock Doctrine is in full swing, fighting back is all we have left. OCCUPY! PROTEST!
STAND TOGETHER.  IF they can do it against all odds all over the Middle East we cam
do it here. It’s time.

@THX 1133
You wrote:
“At some point it may be apparent governments are
necessary evils; never to be trusted; never to be left
unsupervised; and always to be subservient to the
governed.”

Absolutely.
Bears repeating.
Thanks.

Time to break up the “too-big-to-fails.”
Not to punish them, but to create more competition between them.

(note to Repubs & Tea Partiers: competition is a Free Market principle.)

More jobs will be a happy by-product.  And let stockholders of the new, smaller banks pay their CEOs whatever they dare, but let ‘em know in advance: no more bailouts.

RIGHT ON. There is no question that Obama shares the blame for allowing CRIMINALS to reside in OUR White House. In my book, that makes Obama no less of a criminal than they are. Bush, Cheney and company should have been put in prison for war crimes. Obama let them go. Both of them and other Presidents before them have fleeced Americans of everything. Our money, our rights, our voice, our media, and ultimately our hope. The American people have done little until now to stop the crimes against us either. It makes me sick that this lack of involvement is helping our country meet its ultimate demise. There is no real transparency in our newly FASCIST CORPORATE society and LIES and more LIES dictate the con media. What should criminals have the right to brutalize us using cops and a tainted system tipped to squash our voices? The revolt is happening in the heart of Americans who love it and hopefully, the REAL criminals will be imprisoned. The Constitional law MUST be restored and applied equally to EVERYONE.

@ CJ

I disagree with you on EVERY point.

The looming crisis was covered up by the government because they thought that they could still “save” us but when they found out they can’t, this is where we are now. No thank you to our leaders.

Long Distance Love

To be fair, I don’t think Bernanke is much to blame, in fact having done a
decent job of managing the Fed and thus the economy, at least for his part and
to the degree possible. I think he’s probably known about unemployment for as
long as the rest of us, announced or not.

Compare his predecessor, Al Greenspan, acolyte of the loony Ayn Rand and who
was far more instrumental in bringing down the U. S. economy. He even sorta,
kinda apologized at one point.

Let’s not forget that even Dorgan is a capitalist and most of what’s happened
was an inevitable outcome of the brute fact of a terribly flawed economic
CHOICE; namely, capitalism. If any wants to know how it really works, see Wall
Street since just about forever.

Scheer tends to blame individuals more than the system Americans and other
nationalities choose, since capitalism isn’t a natural phenom but just one
particularly mean-spirited economic arrangement. What are usually reported as
capitalism’s “excesses” are no such thing. Capitalism could and should be mitigated, indeed must be just because so bad from the start. (Even when it has been mitigated, however, it’s remained capitalism with all that entails.) Scheer’s not wrong
about that, but the excesses will continue for as long as there are business
cycles, which are endemic to capitalism. And so why does everyone think capitalism could ever be other than it, in actuality, is? Exploitative and cruel even when mitigated. (Speaking from a moral point of view, which is not marxist.)

Yes, the men Scheer names—from
Gramm to Summers—are in positions of power and thus decision makers, but
they’re still not Clinton nor Obama (nor Reagan, nor Kennedy for that matter),
supposedly guys able to make up their own minds—something even “little”
people can do to a limited extent, not least by electing people other than Dems
and Republicans. There are other choices on the ballot.

TARP WAS necessary in order to stave off complete ruin, the likes of which
Americans still couldn’t imagine. As Scheer seems to note himself—rightly so—
the principle problem was the failure of Congress to make TARP conditional on
the single fact that banks who received bail-outs ought have been—by legislation—required to lend that money, when- and wherever necessary to get this bad-enough
economy moving. There were no such provisos and so TARP was largely, not entirely, a failure.

But to say that it would have been better to let America’s biggest banks go
under is just nutty, if, that is, one is interested in the survival of our capitalist
economy at all. And since capitalism is the only economic system going in the
industrialized, so-called, “developed,” world… (It’s probably way too late to change it anyway, at least not without social-economic revolution, which is hardly likely.)

The fact cronies were also bailed out might not have been the sole motive
behind Geithner’s and Bernanke’s actions at the time. As for Summers, Rubin,
and especially Gramm, they were (and are) most culpable, I agree with Scheer.

But this is one instance in history when we might have trashed capitalism
altogether; we failed to take the opportunity to do so, thanks again to a
prevailing ideology that claims capitalism with its so-called “free” market really
is believed a force of nature and not a choice humanity long ago made. We’re
not a bunch of individuals merely self-interest but first social-beings for whom
collective interest is what most matters and what least exploits individuals who
are nothing less nor more than products of the collective—and not the other way around, society the
product of self-interested individuals. The latter, Smithian claim is the very one that resulted in nation-states, and THAT’S worked out well! Only if you’re—ironically only at first glance—Ayn Rand, ultimate capitalist, ultimate believer in top-down hierarchy.

Be careful with that “we” Some of us are really pissed that we had to watch our country go on this fairy tale ride to Cloud Cuckoo Land, and only hope we can get back.

Bernake denied there was a recession coming, and then denied there was a housing crisis looming. What in the hell makes you think he or Obama would know there is a jobs crisis. The White House statistics keep it covered up anyway.

They probably think it’s a Tea Party rumor.

The REAL unemployment rate, the U-6, is closer to
20%... that’s one in 5.  Wages have been stagnant since
the early 1970s, while corporate profits have
multiplied.  This is a systemic problem, and Obama the
Meek and all his horses and all his men tinker around
the edges, trying to salvage a system that is designed
to reward the few, while impoverishing the many. 
Capitalism is the crime.

At some point it may be apparent governments are
necessary evils; never to be trusted; never to be left
unsupervised; and always to be subservient to the
governed.
Pandora has opened her box…