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The Health Care Hindenburg Has Landed

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Posted on Mar 22, 2010
AP / Charles Dharapak

Rep. Dennis Kucinich, D-Ohio, accompanies President Barack Obama as they arrive at Cleveland-Hopkins International Airport before the congressman decided to switch his vote and help pass a health care reform bill he had staunchly opposed.

By Chris Hedges

Rep. Dennis Kucinich’s decision to vote “yes” in Sunday’s House action on the health care bill, although he had sworn to oppose the legislation unless there was a public option, is a perfect example of why I would never be a politician. I respect Kucinich. As politicians go, he is about as good as they get, but he is still a politician. He has to run for office. He has to raise money. He has to placate the Democratic machine or risk retaliation and defeat. And so he signed on to a bill that will do nothing to ameliorate the suffering of many Americans, will force tens of millions of people to fork over a lot of money for a defective product and, in the end, will add to the ranks of our uninsured.

The claims made by the proponents of the bill are the usual deceptive corporate advertising. The bill will not expand coverage to 30 million uninsured, especially since government subsidies will not take effect until 2014. Families who cannot pay the high premiums, deductibles and co-payments, estimated to be between 15 and 18 percent of most family incomes, will have to default, increasing the number of uninsured. Insurance companies can unilaterally raise prices without ceilings or caps and monopolize local markets to shut out competitors. The $1.055 trillion spent over the next decade will add new layers of bureaucratic red tape to what is an unmanageable and ultimately unsustainable system.

The mendacity of the Democratic leadership in the face of this reality is staggering. Howard Dean, who is a doctor, said recently: “This is a vote about one thing: Are you for the insurance companies or are you for the American people?” Here is a man who once championed the public option and now has sold his soul. What is the point in supporting him or any of the other Democrats? How much more craven can they get? 

Take a look at the health care debacle in Massachusetts, a model for what we will get nationwide. One in six people there who have the mandated insurance say they cannot afford care, and tens of thousands of people have been evicted from the state program because of budget cuts. The 45,000 Americans who die each year because they cannot afford coverage will not be saved under the federal legislation. Half of all personal bankruptcies will still be caused by an inability to pay astronomical medical bills. The only good news is that health care stocks and bonuses for the heads of these corporations are shooting upward. Chalk this up as yet another victory for our feudal overlords and a defeat for the serfs.

The U.S. spends twice as much as other industrialized nations on health care—$7,129 per capita—although 45.7 million Americans remain without health coverage and millions more are inadequately covered, meaning that if they get seriously ill they are not covered. Fourteen thousand Americans a day are now losing their health coverage. A report in the journal Health Affairs estimates that, if the system is left unchanged, one of every five dollars spent by Americans in 2017 will go to health coverage. Private insurance bureaucracy and paperwork consume 31 cents of every health care dollar. Streamlining payment through a single nonprofit payer would save more than $400 billion per year, enough, Physicians for a National Health Plan points out, to provide comprehensive, high-quality coverage for all Americans. Check out www.healthcare-now.org. It has some of the best analysis.

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This bill is not about fiscal responsibility or the common good. The bill is about increasing corporate profit at taxpayer expense. It is the health care industry’s version of the Wall Street bailout. It lavishes hundreds of billions in government subsidies on insurance and drug companies. The some 3,000 health care lobbyists in Washington, whose dirty little hands are all over the bill, have once more betrayed the American people for money. The bill is another example of why change will never come from within the Democratic Party. The party is owned and managed by corporations. The five largest private health insurers and their trade group, America’s Health Insurance Plans, spent more than $6 million on lobbying in the first quarter of 2009. Pfizer, the world’s biggest drug maker, spent more than $9 million during the last quarter of 2008 and the first three months of 2009. The Washington Post reported that up to 30 members of Congress from both parties who hold key committee memberships have major investments in health care companies totaling between $11 million and $27 million. President Barack Obama’s director of health care policy, who will not discuss single payer as an option, has served on the boards of several health care corporations. And as salaries for most Americans have stagnated or declined during the past decade, health insurance profits have risen by 480 percent.

Obama and the congressional leadership have consciously shut out advocates of single payer from the debate. The press, including papers such as The New York Times, treats single payer as a fringe movement. The television networks rarely mention it. And yet between 45 and 60 percent of doctors favor single payer. Between 40 and 62 percent of the American people, including 80 percent of registered Democrats, want universal, single-payer not-for-profit health care for all Americans. The ability of the corporations to discredit and silence voices that represent at least half of the population is another sad testament to the power of our corporate state to frame all discussions.

Change will come only by building movements that stand in fierce and uncompromising opposition to the Democrats and the Republicans. If they can herd Kucinich and John Conyers, the sponsors of House Resolution 676, a bill that would create a publicly funded National Health Program by eliminating private health insurers, onto the House floor to vote for this corporate theft, what is the point in pretending there is any room left for us in the party? And why should we waste our time with gutless liberal groups such as Moveon.org, which felt the need to collect more than $1 million to pressure House Democrats who had voted “no” on the original bill to recant? What was this purportedly anti-war group doing anyway serving as an obsequious recruiting arm of the Obama election campaign? The longer we tie ourselves to the Democrats and these bankrupt liberal organizations the more ridiculous and impotent we appear.

“I’m ready to listen to the White House, if the White House is ready to listen to the concerns about putting a public option in this bill,” the old Kucinich said on the “Democracy Now!” radio and television program before he flipped. “I mean, they can do that. You know, they’re still cutting last-minute deals. Put the public option back in. Make it a robust public option. Give the people a chance to really negotiate rates with the insurance companies … from the standpoint of having a public option. But don’t just tell the people that you’re going to call this health care reform, when you’re giving insurance companies an even more powerful monopoly status in our economy.”


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Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, March 15, 2012 at 1:14 pm Link to this comment

I see, thank you for the explanation Ardee.

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By Anarcissie, March 15, 2012 at 7:31 am Link to this comment

SEO is search engine optimization.  You can get paid (not very well) to post messages on blogs, forums, wikis, guestbooks and so on which either contain the URL whose search engine position is to be improved, or which reference it in some way—on TruthDig, one’s screen name links to a URL.  The people who do this sort of thing spend all day posting little messages either unrelated to the blog discussion or only vaguely related.  If the messages stick (that is, if the site administrators don’t remove them) the people who employ the spammers will pay them a small amount per message.  Other scams like MLM may be associated with SEO spamming.  It is not a very lucrative occupation (for the workers, anyway).

As you probably know, Google and other search engines like it position hits based partially on the number of links on other sites which reference the URLs in their list of hits.  People try to game this ranking method.

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By RenZo, March 15, 2012 at 6:58 am Link to this comment

Oh yeah, what is SEO?

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RenZo's avatar

By RenZo, March 15, 2012 at 6:57 am Link to this comment

@ Night-Gaunt, March 14

Those figures sound larger than what I had
understood previously, so I wonder at their
source.

“For-profit health care” is an oxymoron.
Social justice cannot be bought, can it?
Oh…..sorry I forgot where I live.

OJ was acquitted; Pfizer committed
deliberate health care fraud but no one
went to prison, and Chief Executives
promote war crimes, proudly and openly,
then wealth, power and privilege are for
sale.

Why not lives of the poor?

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Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, March 15, 2012 at 6:52 am Link to this comment

Oviously I meant the message previous to yours, to which you appeared to be replying.

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Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, March 14, 2012 at 9:32 pm Link to this comment

By “previous message” you mean me? Now why would you say such a thing? What I related is true. Between 90,000-100,000 people alone die every year from lack of timely medical care. It is a scandal an a crime that has yet to hit the first page.

What does SEO stand for?

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By Anarcissie, March 14, 2012 at 8:31 pm Link to this comment

The previous message is almost certainly SEO spam.  I have reported it to the web site managers.

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By Night-Gaunt, March 14, 2012 at 5:13 pm Link to this comment

Most of our health care is still left to market forces an so far the less they treat the more they make an the more who die. Average 100,000 die every year from not getting the medical treatment they need but can’t afford. There is your answer.

Report this

By Night-Gaunt, August 3, 2010 at 8:43 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“I think, and have mentioned before, that libertarians are predominantly white folks who resent that their taxes go to the assistance of nonwhites. I further believe that their calls for isolationism are ludicrous in the twenty first century. I do find common ground but rarely.”-Ardee

How can not invading and/or pressuring countries to do our will “isolationism?” Trade would be open so no more “favored nation” status either. One of the few things that I agree with them over. But isolation it isn’t at all. Unless you can show me how.

Sadly Kucinich succumbed to what must have been unbelievable pressure. I wish he hadn’t but then he would have been sandbagged to get him out of office. This while we will have Gingrich/Romney corporate “health care” in 2014. He knew it but those pressuring him either didn’t or wanted it badly. Since you won’t see another such battle for decades if ever.

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By ofersince72, July 30, 2010 at 3:50 pm Link to this comment

I would still take a bullet for Dennis, airplane
ride and all.

  I just refuse to vote for Democrats until the majority
of them start acting like decent human beings, and that
isn’t going to happen through the electoral process.

Report this

By ardee, July 30, 2010 at 3:24 pm Link to this comment

Philalethes, March 30 at 11:32 pm

You are free to support whomsoever you choose, but what you are not free to do is distort the biography of Kucinich, even as you said you “looked into his history. I say, look again.

Kucinich has never been a failed business man, according to his bio on Wiki ( easily found http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Kucinich)

but he did indeed fall on hard times when losing his bid for reelection as mayor of Cleveland. He worked as a talk show host, lecturer and consultant until reentering the political arena wherein he has resided ever since.

I could note that ones qualifications for political office are not necessitated by a successful business career or Harry Truman would not have qualified, nor would many politicians in our history actually.I think that fact of Paul’s medical degree far less important than his stance on many issues, positions which I personally find reprehensible as I do most of Libertarian doctrine.

I think, and have mentioned before, that libertarians are predominantly white folks who resent that their taxes go to the assistance of nonwhites. I further believe that their calls for isolationism are ludicrous in the twenty first century. I do find common ground but rarely.

What I do not have to do is smear Paul to make my point as you felt it necessary to smear Kucinich. There are certainly grounds for criticisms of Dennis, but they are based upon his politics and not his circumstances of so long ago.

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By Fremont dentist, July 30, 2010 at 1:01 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

You have a very good site, well constructed and very interesting i have bookmarked you hopefully you keep posting new stuff.

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By Chris S, April 6, 2010 at 11:47 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“What is the point in supporting him or any of the other Democrats? How much more craven can they get?”

Not as craven as the Evil Republicans!  Have you seen how scary are the Palinstein Hordes and their leaders!  According to good liberal progresso whatevers, evil is relative, just like morality.

LOTE LOTE LOTE!  IM NOT LISTENING! LOTE LOTE LOTE!

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By Philalethes, March 30, 2010 at 7:32 pm Link to this comment

“I respect Kucinich. As politicians go, he is about as good as they get, but he is still a politician. He has to run for office. He has to raise money. He has to placate the Democratic machine or risk retaliation and defeat.”

But that’s just the problem, isn’t it? During the 2008 election, a lot of my friends were infatuated with Kucinich, so I took a good look at him. What I learned is that indeed he is a politician—and nothing else. When he was unelected after his first couple of terms, he tried to make a living in the “private sector”—where you have to produce something of value that people will want to voluntarily buy—and he failed. He went bankrupt. All he knows how to do is take people’s money by force and use it to buy himself friends. He’s a politician.

In contrast, my candidate, Ron Paul, is a doctor. When he was unelected after his first couple of terms, he simply went back to doing what he was doing before: delivering babies, at which he was very good and successful. He can make a living in the real world. He is literally the “citizen legislator” the Founders dreamed of; he went into politics to serve his country, not because he couldn’t do anything else.

For over 35 years, Ron Paul has spoken the truth and voted his principles in Congress. Every two years, yes, his own party does its best to take him out, but he’s not intimidated; he just keeps on speaking the truth. I hear he got 80% of the vote in the latest primary; I doubt everyone in his district agrees with him 100% (or even understands him, these days people are so politically and economically uneducated), but I’m guessing they’re proud anyway to be represented by the only man in Washington who appears to have any real principles, who literally can’t be bought.

Dennis Kucinich might be a “nice guy”, but I’m sorry, that’s not enough. If he’s got no spine for what he supposedly believes in, he’s at best a false friend—which, in the end, is even worse than an open enemy. I’m sorry, I don’t respect him a bit—not because I disagree with his stated political views (though I do), but because he has no character. In the end, there’s nobody there.

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By ofersince72, March 28, 2010 at 5:54 pm Link to this comment

if you told me the world was flat, i would believe you
  if you told me the sky was falling i’d take cover,

  i would belive anything you have ever told me,
  but should have never believed the “I Love You”.

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By Inherit The Wind, March 28, 2010 at 10:55 am Link to this comment

cyrena, March 28 at 12:42 am #

By Tennessee-Socialist, March 27 at 1:06 am #

USA NEEDS A UNITED SOCIALIST CHRISTIAN FRONT

Holy Shit!! This is a synonym for these asshole teabagging terrorists!!

News Flash…the USA is a Constitutional Republic, with a foundational provision for the separation of Church and State, NOT a Theocracy run by politically perverted so-called Christians. If you want a Theocracy, move to Israel/Iran/Saudi Arabia. I like it here.

So let’s just cut to the chase and call things what they are: GOPinheads are simply domestic terrorists, and we’re gonna have to start dealing with them according to the laws that we have in place for dealing with terrorists.
**************************************

Cyrena, I have REALLY missed having you around!

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By ofersince72, March 27, 2010 at 10:05 pm Link to this comment

I am with you on this Cyrena….

I was talking of his feed with the economist

a faith based republic isn’t any place i would want to live.

Report this

By cyrena, March 27, 2010 at 9:42 pm Link to this comment

By Tennessee-Socialist, March 27 at 1:06 am #

USA NEEDS A UNITED SOCIALIST CHRISTIAN FRONT

Holy Shit!! This is a synonym for these asshole teabagging terrorists!!

News Flash…the USA is a Constitutional Republic, with a foundational provision for the separation of Church and State, NOT a Theocracy run by politically perverted so-called Christians. If you want a Theocracy, move to Israel/Iran/Saudi Arabia. I like it here.

So let’s just cut to the chase and call things what they are: GOPinheads are simply domestic terrorists, and we’re gonna have to start dealing with them according to the laws that we have in place for dealing with terrorists.

Report this

By ofersince72, March 27, 2010 at 6:10 pm Link to this comment

Good feed Tennessee

When they run out of paper ,  I wonder what their
going to use keep printing money??  Toilet Paper???

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Tennessee-Socialist's avatar

By Tennessee-Socialist, March 27, 2010 at 5:12 pm Link to this comment

CAPITALISM IS MAKING AMERICANS HUNGRY AND POOR

shit, shit, Economist Fred Goldstein in this video said that many americans are even selling their food-stamps, giving up eating, and use the money to buy books, and school supplies for their kids or other stuff like medicine

http://workers.blip.tv/file/3345574/


.

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By ofersince72, March 27, 2010 at 6:25 am Link to this comment

GO   FIGURE…...........

  the Health Care of   Human Beings

  put out   on   the   Market

  for   maximum   profits…....

and liberals,  and progressives,  jumping up and down
                        in jubilation…..

........America…you are fast tracking dddoooowwwwnnnnn

Report this

By ofersince72, March 27, 2010 at 2:19 am Link to this comment

In most states to qualify for a medicaid card,  you
  must be referred by a docter..  So if you are
  suffering from the flu, or bronchitis, ect. and are
  one of the ones now falling into the medicaid net,
  what proceedure will one have to do to get covered????

  How does one go about getting this medicaid if you
  qualify?  What are the qualifiers?  Can you just go
  to the state office and say give me my medicaid card??
  Huh???  do you know ????

Report this

By ofersince72, March 26, 2010 at 10:56 pm Link to this comment

All the proponents of the status quo can do for defense
of their policy is throw slurs just as tea bag opponents

Report this

By ofersince72, March 26, 2010 at 10:48 pm Link to this comment

you are forgiven…

a brainfart is more than what you have offered !!!!!!!

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Calabashe's avatar

By Calabashe, March 26, 2010 at 10:46 pm Link to this comment

ofer:

Forgive me for not being sooo full of ... knowledge, as you are. Tag me again when you are ready to answer questions or share constructive alternatives instead of just posting brainfarts.

Report this

By ofersince72, March 26, 2010 at 10:32 pm Link to this comment

“what would you recommend instead of mandatory coverage
  as passed”

  I didn’t avoid this question,  I told you that there
  were many options that have been discussed, if you
  haven’t followed them then it isn’t worth discussing.

  “how would they be paid for?”  I didn’t avoid that
  either, the very same way that this bloated law
  is paying for it.
  If you have been following this debate for two years,
  you would have seen that universal coverage that
    members like Kucinach at first laid out many years
  ago is actually cheaper and raises the GNP signifi
  cantly.  Cut the insurance companies out. I thought
  that maybe you had been following this debate.

  maybe you can expain how overall costs are going to
  be kept down with this corporate model.
I thought maybe, without spelling out, that you might see
15 billion a month spent on pillage and plunder for the
oil companies could go a long way in paying for health
care.  that is the blanket coverage that you are trying
to baffle with bullshit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Report this
Calabashe's avatar

By Calabashe, March 26, 2010 at 10:23 pm Link to this comment

Tavarish Tennessee:

You mean religion is NOT the opiate of the masses?

Report this
Tennessee-Socialist's avatar

By Tennessee-Socialist, March 26, 2010 at 10:06 pm Link to this comment

USA NEEDS A UNITED SOCIALIST CHRISTIAN FRONT

“Be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

“Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one.

“And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints….”  Ephesians 6:10-18

I think that we only need goodness and morality to defeat evil in USA. 

And the moral side of USA, the evangelical Biblical aunthetic christian churches in USA and the socialist parties should unite into a United Front as an electoral option in 2012 or 2016 to defeat the forces of evil that are ruling in USA right now.

I mean the real christians of USA (not christian-Republican party evangelical fascist-capitalists), and the real socialists not Kucinich.

.

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Calabashe's avatar

By Calabashe, March 26, 2010 at 6:09 pm Link to this comment

ofer:

Thanx for completely avoiding my questions and trying to baffle me with bullshit.

BTW, You forgot to mention flag burning.

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By ofersince72, March 26, 2010 at 6:04 pm Link to this comment

It isn’t my jumping up and down that offended you

  it is that i have been pointing out that

  you give blanket support to this administration

  carrying out the   very same policies

  that you all were screaming for an impeachment
 
  of the last   administration.

Report this

By ofersince72, March 26, 2010 at 5:58 pm Link to this comment

Ardee

the lawsuit is already drawn up

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By ofersince72, March 26, 2010 at 5:57 pm Link to this comment

without a doubt ,  dental care is very much a part
of health care

one of many flaws.

i take it you are in favor of health insurances companies
controlling health care in this country,  i am not.

there have been many that have offered alternatives
so i won’t repeat them…
I am glad you are happy with this new law, there will
be many in the next ten years that sure won’t be.
It was just another in a long line of legislation
to support the corpostocracy.  Everyone would like to
seperate this from items such as billion dollar embassies
, no bid contracts ,  C130s missing with billions.
et al and ect, ect, ect.  however, to me all these
issues fit like a glove together.
It really doesn’t matter anyhow,  the ecological
disasters that are coming will make issues like this
seem like a pimple.

Report this
Calabashe's avatar

By Calabashe, March 26, 2010 at 5:12 pm Link to this comment

ofer:

I respectfully disagree with most of your points but am glad you are presenting your views with a lot more calm and logic.

What would you recommend instead of mandatory coverage as passed? Just askin’. How is it paid for? How are overall costs of universal coverage held down? Keep in mind; many healthier younger Americans opt out of coverage because of a sense of invincibility. Yet as these people get older and the aches and pains start kicking in or a heart attack or accident jolts in some reality, they start jonsing for coverage, isn’t the pool suddenly swayed towards expensive?

Isn’t there a subsidy for families making less than $88,000/yr or some other % of income key that gets 32,000,000 more covered?

It’s like Social Security, if we don’t pay in all our working life, it won’t be there in retirement; give me that please at least in theory.

Isn’t HHS embowered to oversee rates and protect insurance company denials, caps or other practices, which are supposed to be outlawed in the current act anyway?

I like your question of basic coverage. Realistic concern. I wish dental was included. I mean there are times that even Nancy seems to need a stronger Polygrip. <grin>

lets:

Thanx for helping me make my point. I wish I could superglue your keyboard but no one died and made me assistant god. But keep pontificating your anger if it floats your boat.

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By ofersince72, March 26, 2010 at 3:44 pm Link to this comment

HERE IS WHAT UR SUPPORTING

Mandates to buy insurance,  a gift worth hundreds of
billions to those that created this crisis.

Inadequate cost control
insurers remain in control of what they offer and what
will be a covered service

No standard benifit package

No meaningful restrictions on claim denials insurers
dont want to pay for.
the “internal review process” remains in the hands of
the insurers.
The external review will be up to States, most of which
are already dominated by the insurance companies.

This is ur bill that you are so proud of !!!! now law..
and HEDGES IS RIGHT ON !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Report this

By ardee, March 26, 2010 at 3:42 pm Link to this comment

ofersince72, March 26 at 6:04 pm #

Ardee…

in my opinion, you are one of the most reasonable posters on TD , that has brougt me to me senses on more than one
occasion.

He dont know me vewwy well, do he?  grin

As to the “self involved progressive” you speak of, sorry, but those on the left are the only ones in this nation thinking of those in most need.

While there are certainly those who defend the reform effort because they must defend Obama and the Democrats there are equally those who attack it because they must restore the GOP to power.

I defend what is, in my opinion, defensible about this new law, and those points have been enumerated many times in several threads and bear no repetition here. I also speak out against what I find reprehensible and in need of repair. In other words I read and think and ponder, avoiding blanket condemnations and whitewashing both.

I seek change, many just seek to vent, accomplishing nothing. In order to effect change one must form alliances, that is just how the thing works. Kucinich did what he did because he feared a hamstrung Presidency if the health care bill should fail. His change of heart shouldn’t signify disregarding all his good intentions and hard work throughout his career.

This new law will face many challenges, as many as the GOP can throw up there. States are already lining up to challenge mandatory health care fees in fact so no one knows the final look of this reform attempt.

We can, I believe, assume that we will benefit rather little from this attempted reform, perhaps we will go from 37th as a nation all the way to 36th or 35th even in the providing of said care to our citizenry. But what was changed once can be changed again, and hopefully for the better.

So, instead of ranting and raving, instead of throwing away allies we desperately need if we are serious about change I prefer a saner course….

So sue me.

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By ofersince72, March 26, 2010 at 3:21 pm Link to this comment

JDMysicDJ…..on ur percentages
356 to 65

I was in a position to be able to watch the WHOLE of the
110th session of Congress. (very boring and am not proud
of this) Both regular session and all committee hearings
that were offered.  On all extra funding bills for the
Iraq, and Afghan plundering and pillaging (sorri JD, there
these words describe exactly what is going on), very few
dems oppossed these fundings.

I was able to watch Dems that professed progressivism
and peace take the C-Span microphone and speak the most
beautifua anti-war speeches I have ever heard, give all
the good reasons why the US should have never invaded.
Democrats like , david obey, sheila jackson lee, b. lee
woolsey and many many others, then just as soon as they
away from the cameras and mics, go throw their vote for
more and more funding.
Of the 65 that voted yes for the War Powers Act,  only
a handful were sincere.  Forty of them voted yes because
they knew it had no political consquence for them, so they
pleased their constituents back home knowing that the
bill would not pass, had their votes decided the outcome,
they would have voted the same way that they always have
since the beginning of these genocides.MORE MONEY !!!!!!

Report this

By ofersince72, March 26, 2010 at 3:04 pm Link to this comment

Ardee…

in my opinion, you are one of the most reasonable posters
on TD , that has brougt me to me senses on more than one
occasion.

How can someone as reasonable as you, make a statement
that no one has offered reasonable solutions over the
last forty years????????????????

Report this

By ofersince72, March 26, 2010 at 3:01 pm Link to this comment

Ardee…

This health INS. reform bill is a grand example of my
last post….

Most that are defending this trash are doing so to
legitimize Obama or just because the republicans are
against it. (which is a scam in itself)

Report this

By ofersince72, March 26, 2010 at 2:57 pm Link to this comment

Ardee…...

  There have been numerous solutions offered by many…

The real problem is,,,, those that profess “progressivism”
don’t really want change.  They just wany “their”
personal interests looked out for.

That has been the problem in effecting any social change
for the last forty years !!!!!!!!!!!

Report this

By heyletsevolve, March 26, 2010 at 1:03 pm Link to this comment

Since you’re such an expert on political process, Cyrena, why don’t you tell the rest of us how the election system works?

Do you have any idea how the Republicans and Democrats both work together to keep any other viable party out of the system?

Do you understand how a vote makes its way from the polling booth to the final result that appears on your television screen?

Do you know all the different ways that vote is manipulated in the interim, at the precinct and county levels?

Would you like to explain at what point in the process of how a bill becomes a law the pharmaceutical companies came in and removed themselves from the necessary reforms that should have been part of the Health Care Overhaul?

And what role did the Democrats play in that?

Apparently you understand the whole process and rest of us are totally ignorant mobs, so we look to your for your fucking wisdom.

Actually, forget it. People like you make me want to throw up. I think I’m finally done with wasting my time on this thread. I’m going to go do something productive.

Have a nice life, Cyrena, DJ, and the rest of you all.

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By heyletsevolve, March 26, 2010 at 12:54 pm Link to this comment

“I think the basic foundation to all of this frustration is age old, and not just from Hedges.  I comes from being screwed over for so long, but they don’t take it out on the ones that have been screwing them. They wait until somebody comes along to fix the mess that their apathy and selfishness have created, and then start their bitching and moaning.

They are incapable of connecting the dots in a political system that is dictated by the rule of law. They don’t know the nuts and bolts of the system, or how any of the mechanics work. It’s all emotionalism with no sense of pragmatism.”

What a total load of crap. Does it somehow make you feel more powerful to say such stupid things?

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By heyletsevolve, March 26, 2010 at 12:52 pm Link to this comment

Cyrena,

You make so many assumptions and accusations that are totally false. Amazing that you can do that and call yourself thoughtful.

Where were Hedges and other people over the past 20-30 years? Gee, I don’t know Cyrena, why don’t you ask? Cause a lot of us have been battling the corporatists our entire lives, though apparently that news would shock you.

Chris Hedges has been writing cogently and with courageous honesty for many, many years, and has been on the front lines of war reporting. I met him years ago when he came to speak in my community. You don’t seem to know much if anything about him.

I am among the many activists who have been battling on the front lines of anti-globalization movements, creating citizen educational campaigns, leading protests, working for alternative media, trying to stop the inexorable take-over.

Anyway, go ahead and call the only truly honest people “mobs” if it suits your purposes. The Internet is a place where all our worst insults are protected by anonymity.

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By cyrena, March 26, 2010 at 11:31 am Link to this comment

By JDmysticDJ, March 25 at 9:26 pm #
Cyrena
•  “Earlier on this thread I went off on Hedges. I think he’s a good analyst of social conditions, but he seems to lack the humanity of a Chomsky or a Zinn. Chomsky said that if he were voting, he would hold his nose and vote for the Bill.”

JDmystic,
I just wanted to thank you for writing this very excellent post. I began to respond to it last night, but I couldn’t respond as completely as I would have liked,  if only because my free time now comes in bits and pieces, and I don’t like to say/write something until I can do it correctly – as in thoughtfully and objectively. But you nailed it when you speak to the dichotomy (I call it hypocrisy) of the mentality surrounding the mob that Hedges and others here on this site exhibit. You did it beautifully.

Sadly, I believe that most of it goes right over most of their heads, including Hedges. I don’t believe Hedges to be a good analyst of social conditions, (and I can explain that when there’s more time) but he’s also incapable of understanding how our political system works, and that the corrupting influence of Corporatism didn’t happen overnight.  So where were he and his mob when it WAS happening.

Yes, it’s true about the frustration of him and many others. But I have zero tolerance for those who sat silently by (or at least safe from danger ) while the republicans (and particularly the Thug Regime of the last decade of the 20th century)did their dastardly destruction. 

I think the basic foundation to all of this frustration is age old, and not just from Hedges.  I comes from being screwed over for so long, but they don’t take it out on the ones that have been screwing them. They wait until somebody comes along to fix the mess that their apathy and selfishness have created, and then start their bitching and moaning.

They are incapable of connecting the dots in a political system that is dictated by the rule of law. They don’t know the nuts and bolts of the system, or how any of the mechanics work. It’s all emotionalism with no sense of pragmatism.

On the day of the vote, when long term activist John Lewis (beaten to within an inch of his life during the CRM)was called the N word, and Clyburn was spit on, and Barney Franks was called the F word, there was a very poignant statement from one of them. Not sure which, but I’ll paraphrase:

“We’re used to this because we’ve been here before. Every time (in the history of this nation) that we attempt to EXPAND RIGHTS , there’s always a STRUGGLE.”  All we need do is look at the history books, (as long as they aren’t Texas approved history books) and we will see that. Now in my mind, THIS is the greatest dichotomy, but it doesn’t surprise me, because it is what it is. For all of the ‘equality’ that we claim to espouse, there are far too many average citizens who DO NOT believe such rights should be extended, if it makes the next average citizen equal to them, or if they ‘perceive’ some other person or group to be getting something they don’t have. It is the built-in hypocrisy of the American mentality.

Anyway, keep writing, because I hope to hear more from you. Thanks again.

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By heyletsevolve, March 26, 2010 at 9:16 am Link to this comment

Not that it would stop you from typing . . .

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By heyletsevolve, March 26, 2010 at 9:15 am Link to this comment

Yes, and if I were Queen people like you would be born with their lips miraculously sealed with Crazy Glue. But as well all know, life isn’t fair.

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By Calabashe, March 26, 2010 at 6:55 am Link to this comment

Oh that I were Queen, I’d wave my wand and the world would be remade in my image but I’m not and that really pisses me off!

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By heyletsevolve, March 25, 2010 at 10:09 pm Link to this comment

And I do have anger management. I scream at people like you online, then I go to the local gym and kick the shit out of the heavy bag while listening to Rage Against the Machine at top volume.

Gotta problem with that?

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By heyletsevolve, March 25, 2010 at 10:05 pm Link to this comment

JD,

It’s too bad I don’t have insurance that might cover some good drugs from Big Pharma that would deaden my sense of outrage and have me walking in glassy-eyed lock-step behind my saviors, the Democrats.

How can I argue with you? Good Cop gives us much warmer blankets, better food, and tells us jokes on his beat. Bad cop sticks our testicles into anti-freeze and sicks the dogs on us. You are right, I choose Big Cop.

So now that we agree that we like warmer blankets and much prefer jokes to open sadism, what do we do about this gosh darned prison?

I don’t have blindfolds on, JD, and I’m quite aware of the wilderness we’re all in. But I think anger can sometimes keep you motivated. Sometimes it wears you out, it’s true. But some people are cursed with the inability to accept injustice, corruption, greed and lies, no matter how it messes with their digestion.

Anyway, I don’t want “help” from the Democrats. I want the Democrats to take a stand in changing the system so that the political parties are no longer beholden to corporate owners.

If the Democrats won’t do it, what shall we do then?

There are always people who argue on behalf of working with the status quo and not rocking the boat, and obviously if real change is possible within the system, that is the route that should be taken.

But our system has become too corrupt, and people need to wake up. Obama took huge campaign contributions from the health care industry, and the Democrats have to fess up about what that means, and how it affected the health care struggle.

As far as whether Obama really cares about people, I can’t tell you what is really in his heart. I know what is on his lips, and it is not always the same as what he ultimately does.

So far he has not gained my trust, and understanding the realities of politics, there is no reason why he should. He is responsible to the corporations first, not me.

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By JDmysticDJ, March 25, 2010 at 9:31 pm Link to this comment

Heyletsevolve

“My anger doesn’t make me irrational, it makes me angry. I am angry, unapologetically. And hearing the cheering for the corrupt Left makes me even angrier.”

Four angers in these two sentences. The first sentence speaks of exponential anger. Did you ever consider anger management counseling?

Ardee said it very succinctly

“I also see that unending criticisms, abandoning those who are potential allies because of some kind of political purity, and offering no real solutions doom the progressive and the leftist to the fringes of political power.”

Your $500 payment would put me on the streets, or poverty stricken in a hovel, and I truly empathize with your complaints, but what is your political solution, other than being angry. Political realities are harsh. To use a simple analogy, it’s like we’re lost in a wilderness. Being angry won’t get us out of the wilderness. We need to find a way out.

I don’t want to be condescending, but really, do think putting on a blindfold is going to help you out of the wilderness. From which side of the isle do you see help coming? You’re biting the hand that is trying to feed you. It’s like a bell curve, the people on the left side of the curve are trying to help you, the people on the right side of the curve could care less, and they will only make things worse for you. People on the right believe that you are responsible for your situation, and that exploitation of you is justified. The right is completely out of touch with average Americans.


“You work three jobs?  … Uniquely American, isn’t it? I mean, that is fantastic that you’re doing that.” —President George W. Bush, to a divorced mother of three, Omaha, Nebraska, Feb. 4, 2005

How about that? Does that make you angry? Do you think that your anger may be displaced?

Can you imagine Obama saying something like that? Do you think that Obama cares about the plight of the American people? I do. I think that he is wrong headed and much too close to Wall Street, but that he thinks he’s doing what is best for the American people. I don’t want to put myself in a position of defending the indefensible but surely you can see a difference between right and left. What we need is a more progressive government, but we won’t get there by destroying the democratic party. Destroying the left will only move us closer to fascism.

“Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power.” - Benito Mussolini.

Is Obama a corporatist? I believe he is to some extent. Are the republicans corporatists?  Corporatism is the very core of their political belief, and it has been for over a hundred years. Do you think this current bill is a democratic Bill? This Bill was the best legislation that could be pushed through a Senate that requires 60 votes to pass legislation. It was 40 republicans and a hand full of right wing democrats that shaped this bill, stripping the public option, and Medicare at 55 from the Bill. Even this Bill that you hate so much did not receive one republican vote in the Senate.

Tell me they’re all corrupt, and there is no way we can do anything. That’s a very popular position; it’s what Hedges believes, except that Hedges believes we need to revolt, using violence when necessary. Are you up for that? I’m not; I don’t want to see this country become a totalitarian police state, run without mercy from the right, or from the left.

It’s about political reality. We need to work to improve the left, or the right will take power. This conflict is as old as time, and history is replete with examples.

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By Tennessee-Socialist, March 25, 2010 at 9:03 pm Link to this comment

GLENN BECK IS A LIAR LIKE ALL REPUBLICAN PARTY LEADERS.  TAKE A LOOK AT THIS VIDEO OF GLENN BECK USING VICKS TO GENERATE FAKE-TEARS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj4I2f0ZO6g


.

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By heyletsevolve, March 25, 2010 at 8:59 pm Link to this comment

Tennessee,

I understand your point and I’m sure you understand mine. It seems like any system at all is corruptible. I’d have to learn more about Venezuela, but I’m not a huge fan of Chavez from what I’ve learned and his actions in recent years.

What I don’t like is the top down authoritarianism of leaders like Castro and Chavez, though I know he’s been rebuked by the voters of Venezuela for trying to capture too much power.

Although I’m also pretty sure that things would have gone differently in Cuba had it not been for the sanctions.

Honestly, I can’t talk with much certainty about socialism in all its forms. I do believe that society should be a collective effort toward a better world, and it makes sense to me that we would all put in to a collective fund for things like health care and education if they were run with basic decency and common sense.

But hell, isn’t that our problem? Decency and common sense are less and less to be found. We’ve really lost them and it’s getting worse.

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By Tennessee-Socialist, March 25, 2010 at 8:45 pm Link to this comment

heyletsevolve: You said:

“And when you start talking about seizing power from the wealthy, it sounds like the Russian or Chinese takeovers, which were a hellish disaster.”

Well, Don’t worry about Glenn Beck, Bill O’ Rilley and Sarah Palin when we used the words socialism or communism. In a workers-state they would have to be locked up in a highly security jail, those tea baggers are dangerous for the dictatorship of the proletariat.

But seizing power from the wealth sounds like an argument of FOX news or CNN.  On the contrary, what US workers and US citizens would do if a Socialist Workers Party rises to power is to reclaim their wealth back from the Mafia-cartels that have ruled this country. USA is not their territory, they are just renting it. 

And why do you raise the Socialism of the XX Century card.  Besides the Bolshevik-Revolution and Paris Commune did work, but not USSR because it was not a real workers socialist system.

And Why don’t you instead talk about the great examples of the modern Socialism of the XXI Century which is working very good in Venezuela where poverty levels have been down from 70% to 30%.  And socialism generates wealth in Venezuela and is increasing living standards, while capitalism only generates misery here in USA, and about 50 million americans in hunger and poverty.  Hunger is non-existant in Venezuela

And remember USA has 2 options: Socialism or Death of the United States

.

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By heyletsevolve, March 25, 2010 at 8:36 pm Link to this comment

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92419273

This is a link to an NPR story on how health care is run in France. It is a mandatory tax, there is a small co-pay based on income, everyone is covered, there is a wide range of choice in treatment and doctors (even homeopathy is covered) and the sicker you get, the less you pay. If you are very sick, you most likely will pay nothing.

The very poor who cannot pay into the system are also covered.

France has the best health care in the world. Let’s think about it.

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By heyletsevolve, March 25, 2010 at 8:08 pm Link to this comment

The two party system keeps us in a truly schizophrenic state where we are forced to take “sides” where sides really don’t exist.

If we don’t support the Left, we implicitly support the Right because we take our vote away from the Left.

How can we exist like this? How can we go forward like this?

Meanwhile, the Left and Right are two heads of the same beast when it comes to the real top level corruption. It was Reagan who deregulated in the 80s, it was Clinton who signed NAFTA and GATT in the 90s.

And Obama today continued many of the Bush policies. Why? Why has he overseen the looting by the banks? Where has the money gone? Why would he not even discuss Single Payer at all so its merits could be openly debated?

We need a political movement that is based on what is written in the Declaration of Independence, a government for the People. And that means corporations must no longer have the right of personhood.

I refuse to accept the position that I must support the Left or I am suffering from revolutionary delusions. The Left is part of the problem now—at least the Democratic Party is. And as our founding document states, it is the right of the people to do away with a government once it does not serve the needs of the people.

Our founding fathers were revolutionaries, and so was everyone who ever broke down major barriers.

Right now the 2 party system and corporate control of elections is the major barrier to a healthy world, where trillions of tax dollars go to war and not education and health care.

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By heyletsevolve, March 25, 2010 at 7:51 pm Link to this comment

” People, who claim to want social democracy, but fail to support the left, don’t
seem to realize that not supporting the left enables the right. I see them as
being naïve and counter revolutionary, and I believe they’re suffering from
some kind of Marxist theoretical delusion.”

JD,

Your continued faith in the American Left and the Democrats is nothing short
of astonishing. I think what you are so perplexed about—with regard to
Hedges and others on this site who agree with him—is why some of us have
stop believing in the Good Cop Bad Cop two-party political reality we all share.
But if you stop to think about it for a moment you might understand that many
people have caught onto the facts of how politics in America works. We
understand who really funds campaigns and calls the shots. And yes, the
Democrats are the Good Cop, by far. No question.  But some of us are just fed
up with the whole prison and we want something else.

We need a different party system, we can’t keep playing this dreadful game
anymore, where we get thrown bones by the Left but nothing fundamentally
changes. It’s sickening to watch it.

Obviously we don’t want to support the GOP, but when will we be able to break
free from the two party trap? When will it be time to collectively decide to do
something different?

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By Cindy Wimer, March 25, 2010 at 7:37 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I am so appreciative for Chris Hedges and his refusal to carry water for Obama
and the Democratsthat so many liberal/progressive pundits/writers continue to
do.  I just finished his book, Empire of Illusion, and I highly recommend it to
anyone who thinks this country is headed down the path of fascism (and make
no mistake about it we are). 

That being said I have a comment for Cyrena specifically and that is NO I do not
expect to get free medical care but I do NOT expect the government to
mandate me to purchase insurance without regulating the costs that insurance
companies can charge (and don’t think that they will be holding them
accountable because they won’t much in the same way they have done nothing
to reel in the vultures on Wall Street). 

And on a final note…people who post marathon long posts (like cyrena) need
to make their point and shut the hell up already…do you really think anyone
wants to read your 10,000 word rant?  Well we don’t.  Point made and now I’m
done.

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By ofersince72, March 25, 2010 at 7:13 pm Link to this comment

It only took them one   day   for this….

War powers act…..that lost

356   to   65

war won

and plenty of bi-partisinship

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By ofersince72, March 25, 2010 at 6:50 pm Link to this comment

on the sixteen million
  “Expansion of the government funded low income people,
  though the program remains significantly under funded
  which limits access to its enrolles as its reimbersment
  rates are lower than Medicare or private insurance
  with the result , some providers find it impossible
  to participate. Though the federal government will
  provide additional subsidies to states,  those expire
  2016, leaving the program a top target to budget
  cutting governors and legislatures.”

  IS THIS WHAT EVERONE IS SO GIDDY ABOUT,  THAT TOOK
  A YEAR TO DO ???????

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By JDmysticDJ, March 25, 2010 at 6:26 pm Link to this comment

Cyrena

Earlier on this thread I went off on Hedges. I think he’s a good analyst of social conditions, but he seems to lack the humanity of a Chomsky or a Zinn. Chomsky said that if he were voting, he would hold his nose and vote for the Bill.

I don’t think Hedges fails to see that failure of health care reform would mean victory for republicans, and that that victory would be reflected in the next election. So I wonder why he has so intensely criticized this legislation and the people who reluctantly chose to support it. Kucinich has been a tireless supporter of progressive causes, but Hedges downgrades him to a mere “Politician.” Someone needs to tell Hedges that he is a mere pundit.

Hedges went so far as to propose “Sabotage” as a method to combat corporatism, but I know from observing first hand, that that kind of activity only does harm, and is costly to the struggle for social justice. The activities of those who resorted to violent acts of civil disobedience, allowed some in the government and the media to portray peace activists as being dangerous radicals during the Viet Nam War era. For example, those who burned the R.O.T.C. building at Kent State University gave the soldiers the excuse they needed to kill the four peace activists at Kent State. It’s only one incident, but I think it’s illustrative of the consequences of what Hedges proposes, and I think that the results of this kind of violence have been evident throughout history.

This is from Wikipedia regarding the beginning of the Tiananmen Square Massacre.

“As can be seen in numerous photographs many vehicles were set on fire in the streets all around Tiananmen some with their occupants still inside them. There were reports of soldiers being burned alive in their armored personnel carriers while others were beaten to death. Then the soldiers started firing live ammunition at some of the protesters…

I’m a staunch believer in non-violent protest to end tyranny, and I advocate for demonstrations at the current time in order to end our militarism, and to promote economic justice, but Hedges’ telling people that all is lost and that they should use sabotage, is unenlightened and counter productive. I’ve also developed a sense of frustration after reading post after post from people who post here, and share Hedges’ view; they fail to see the dichotomy between right and left. People, who claim to want social democracy, but fail to support the left, don’t seem to realize that not supporting the left enables the right. I see them as being naïve and counter revolutionary, and I believe they’re suffering from some kind of Marxist theoretical delusion.

The new legislation is only a first step, but it is an improvement, and we’ll need a strong left to make further improvements, but many here, like Hedges, want immediate change which they don’t have the political power to achieve. Instead of continuing to work for change, they turn their backs on their only agents for change, thereby giving assistance to those who oppose what they profess to want. It makes no sense to me. The word that describes it best is nihilism, and I believe it to be a kind of neurosis that is induced by frustration. They seem to be profoundly concerned with current realities, but I believe they don’t see the solution, and that they advocate a non solution, that is derived from a pipe dream, or…  they just like to bitch.

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By Heyletsevolve, March 25, 2010 at 5:49 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Cyrena,

(this is heyletsevolve, I don’t think I’m signed in)
I am truly sorry about all you’ve gone through. I’ve had my own medical nightmares at a young age and I am speaking from a place of total frustration, huge debt, ruined credit, and ongoing inability to afford care though I work full time. My boss offers no health care package and I am not eligible for any assistance.

And by the way, I never said a damn thing about working with the poor being unusual. But I am in tax debt right now because I spent so many years making so little while running a community non-profit, that I didn’t pay my taxes because I couldn’t afford it. Stupidity of my twenties. Now I am trying to pay it off.

As far as thinking it’s really free, no, I do not think anything is free. My mother is on social security and has her small payments deducted. It really angers me to think of how much she has to pay.

However it is because she had a well paying upper-middle class job all her life that she even has the social security she does get, and the medical coverage.

What I do not agree with in any of your postings is your defense of the politicians. Sure, sure, let’s all get on the “something is better than nothing” bandwagon. I’ll sit on it with you for about ten minutes, but then I’m going to have to get off and fucking throttle the bastards in Washington who consistently sell us out to corporate interests—and that goes for Democrats and Republicans.

And the thing of it is—is—that if the Dems weren’t so deep in the pockets of their funders, they could come out and speak the truth loud and clear and really get the masses of people behind them. Which is of course a lot of what Obama did during his campaign, and then went on to break the hearts of millions of his supporter by breaking one promise after another, overseeing the unbelievable looting (oh sorry, bailout) by the banks, hiring the same economic hit men who were in charge of much of the disasters on Wall Street before Obama got into office, expanding the wars . . . etc.

And you defend him as one of the best. Well, if this is the best, baby we’re totally screwed.

So excuse my political “purity” as another commenter called it. If purity is expecting our “leadership” as you so optimistically called those fucking sold out cowards, to at the very least live up to their fundamental promises, then yes, I guess I’m pure.

And as far as how I expect to fund Single Payer, I would want to look at the funding structures of other countries who have that system, look at where the taxes go in the USA, and discuss what makes the most sense.

However, we couldn’t do that during this health care battle because Obama wouldn’t even DISCUSS single payer, even though polls showed a majority of Americans were supportive.

Now why would that be?

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By ofersince72, March 25, 2010 at 4:41 pm Link to this comment

A whole lot of truth in that, about the lefties and our
weekend protests, but really thats all we have had plus
some letters and phone call.  None of the left organizes
together, they stay split up in enviromental, social
justice, civil rights, constitutional policies, economics
and a few other issues.  They are all good, but usually
islands. They don’t even put our news rags anywhere where
the general public know they exist, or if one makes it
such as the Nation after 150yrs, it becomes somewhat
diluted, or as the New Republic was years ago, bought out
and format changed.  You have to have widespread media
help or our silly protests are all we have.  You know how
much help mainstream media is getting real and truthful
news out.

The Sunday show, the Centrists knew thats all they had to
do,  make it appear that all the repubs were against that
bill and they would have all the support they needed to
get that corpocrat bill through with public support. It
was so easy.  Then after spitting at each other on
Sunday ,  there they were Monday holding hands kissing
each other “We are together, tied at the hip on all
foriegn policy and our guns”  They we they talk about
though is not “us”,  we (us) arn’t included in that “we”
for very few americans are for Capitol Hill’s and the
White House foriegn policy.  We are excluded from those
decisions,  because they aren’t ours,  they are Wall STreet’s.  You all were easy.  They have lied (the Centrists) to us about everything under the sun and the
American Public is going to believe them about this
health “insurance” reform bill. 
I do still have that   bridge i need   to sell !!!!

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By cyrena, March 25, 2010 at 4:39 pm Link to this comment

By heyletsevolve, March 25 at 5:50 pm
•  “Tell me, would a Single Payer system be a problem for you in some way? You seem to recognize its superiority, yet you rant at people who are furious over the fact that Single Payer was not even on the table. I call that myopia, personally. You seem to be saying that YOU feel okay with what you’ve got, and therefore can’t truly understand what the problem is.”

Well hey lets,
I’m pretty sure you don’t get it, but that’s reasonable enough, since you have no clue to who I am, or what I’ve experienced in the old system.  So let me advise you of that first.

I’m ONE of those poor people you work with, who had ZERO medical insurance coverage when I became ill 10 years ago. Now that’s DESPITE the fact that I’d been working (and obviously paying into the system) for over 40 years. When my CORPORATE (very much FOR PROFIT) former employer DUMPED me, (along with thousands of other employees across the nation) it left me with NO insurance on top of NO income.  I got sick. Very sick. I LOST MY HOME, and had to return to the state of my birth, where the indigent,  have at least SOME access to health care via the STATE medical institutions that are funded by STATE income taxes. I did NOT – let me make sure you get this – I DID NOT have medicare at the time. I had NOTHING, because I couldn’t AFFORD anything. I couldn’t even afford RENT or GROCERIES. Do you get this? I no longer had a job, so I no longer had an income or medical coverage. I’m making this point because of your comments about the middle class that you so arrogantly slander.  There IS no ‘middle class” dude, because the republican under the cheney regime destroyed us. But when there WAS a middle class, (and I prefer the term working class) we provided the BACKBONE for those who became like me, after working and paying into the system all of their lives.

So, when I became ill, for the first time in my life, I had to become a recipient of PUBLIC ASSISTANCE. My ‘assistance’ was in the form of ‘welfare medicine’. Now that was OK, because that’s what we presume we are paying for during our working years. Let me repeat again, that I DID NOT HAVE MEDICARE at the time. In fact, it took me 4 long years before the repigs FINALLY approved my acceptance into the Social Security System, which was DESIGNED for that purpose. To provide income for those who can no longer work, as a result of ill health.

So being a recipient of medicare hardly makes me ‘elite’ or even middle class. Clearly I would be in far better shape (individually) if I could have continued working until the normal age of retirement. I cannot do that.

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By cyrena, March 25, 2010 at 4:37 pm Link to this comment

2 of 2
Now in all of the discussions of this health care reform, and the whole ‘single payer’ issue, I find people like you to be quite hypocritical. You complain that you work with poor people, (like that’s some unusual thing…I’ve been servicing the poor all of my life) who can’t afford insurance premiums. (just like I couldn’t afford them without an income). So how would they be able to ‘afford’ a ‘single payer’ option, even if it existed? Do you people have some misguided vision that ‘single payer’ means FREE? MEDICARE is NOT FREE. Those of us who are so-called ‘fortunate’ enough to have medicare, (only because we can no longer work) PAY FOR IT!! It runs about $1,300 a year, and is paid for thru monthly deductions from my social security income.  Let me repeat that…MEDICARE IS NOT FREE TO THE INDIVIDUAL, and nor does it cover bullshit types of medical care. Additionally, Medicare, (part B – the part we pay for) only covers 80% of the eligible charges. The remaining 20% is out-of-pocket. Now for me personally, that still works, because my physicians are willing to accept the 80% paid by Medicare, (which is now even less than it was before) without tagging me with the rest. That’s because in my community of POOR people, we have excellent physicians committed to the public welfare rather than individual greed.

But I’m still sick of everybody thinking that medical care should be “free”, because NOTHING IS! What, you think all of these medical centers and highly trained medical professional’s are all ‘donated’? Now if you all wanna do the socialist thing, that’s a whole ‘nother deal, and I’d be perfectly OK with that. I’d be just fine with a so-called ‘single payer’ system, but who do you propose that ‘single payer’ should be, and more importantly, HOW DO YOU EXPECT TO FUND IT?

You claim that the ‘single payer’ option was ‘never on the table’. That may or may not be the case, but it doesn’t matter, because it would NEVER HAVE PASSED. Let’s be really clear about that. The people running around here spitting on Democratic Congress members, threatening lives destroying property do NOT WANT to fund ANYTHING that might benefit someone else.  In fact, NOTHING would have passed under a repugnican administration that could give less than a damn about those poor people (myself included) that you claim to speak for.  Check your historical records, we’ve TRIED THIS BEFORE!!!

So sure, bring us a single payer idea that has at least some connection to the political realities of a country determined to exercise Darwin’s theory (survival of the fittest) at the socio-economic level. You can put anything you WANT –‘on the table’ but that’s as far as it would get.

Last but certainly not least, quit ASSUMING that anyone currently receiving the ‘benefits’ of the original system (Social Security/Medicare) aren’t in just as bad a shape as everyone you claim to speak for, and get yourself a bit more educated about the so-called ‘middle class’. It no longer exists. There are the 1%’ers, and then there are the rest of us.  But when we DID exist, it was we who provided the assistance for the poor.

So if you think that I’m saying that I feel OK with what I’VE got, you are partially right, because what I PURCHASE via the Medicare system is a hell of a lot MORE than I had before….which was NOTHING! And when Americans have NO WAY to pay for their medical care, they either go on the PUBLIC DIME, or they die from preventable illnesses.

Which way do you prefer?

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By ardee, March 25, 2010 at 4:34 pm Link to this comment

heyletsevolve, March 25 at 6:07 pm

I believe you misrepresent the facts of the matter here. I have seen no one who is satisfied with this reform attempt. What I have seen are folks who see this as a first step.

I also see that unending criticisms, abandoning those who are potential allies because of some kind of political purity, and offering no real solutions doom the progressive and the leftist to the fringes of political power.

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By heyletsevolve, March 25, 2010 at 3:07 pm Link to this comment

I love it when the middle classes fulfill their duty and act as a buffer between the wealthy and poor. It’s so beautifully illustrated by middle class people defending this health care bill and telling the poorer people to calm down and stop being so radical and demanding real change.

Ah. Irony.

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By heyletsevolve, March 25, 2010 at 2:58 pm Link to this comment

Tennessee,

I think you’ve got a losing proposition when you start using the terms Socialism or Communism. Neither has positive associations any longer for most people in the US. And when you start talking about seizing power from the wealthy, it sounds like the Russian or Chinese takeovers, which were a hellish disaster.

For the most part I also think it would be a disaster to try to implement any across the board worker controlled system overnight. Most people have no leadership capacity and can’t think too well, and our educational system has created generations of fundamentally clueless and ignorant people. This is the reality. I’ve been a business owner, and to think of my employees controlling anything is a frightening concept.

That said, many co-ops work beautifully and I totally support educating people about how they can work. We also need to understand how and why they don’t.

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By heyletsevolve, March 25, 2010 at 2:50 pm Link to this comment

Cyrena,

We’re all really happy for you that you’re so thrilled with our new options. I’m especially happy that you have Medicare already, and feel your future options are affordable.

I have worked with poor people in the inner city, and in New Mexico—the second poorest state in the country. Please believe me when I tell you that NOTHING is affordable for them. Every single penny they make is sucked into rent, gas, and whatever they need for their children. What will work for them is to have access to free health care like people in other first-world countries that actually care about their population.

Tell me, would a Single Payer system be a problem for you in some way? You seem to recognize its superiority, yet you rant at people who are furious over the fact that Single Payer was not even on the table. I call that myopia, personally. You seem to be saying that YOU feel okay with what you’ve got, and therefore can’t truly understand what the problem is.

I don’t have Medicare, I don’t have a child and am not eligible for assistance, and I work 42 hours a week at low but higher than minimum wage salary and cannot even afford to pay rent in the town I live in because the rentals are through the roof, and it costs me $50 to fill up my gas tank once a week. I have ongoing debt from an emergency surgery three years ago and my credit is ruined because of it. I pay my taxes and I would like for a large part of our tax dollars to create a robust health care system in this country where EVERYONE has access 24/7 to the care they need.

Chris Hedges is one of the few truth speakers in this country. Too bad you don’t know it, it’s your loss.

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By Tennessee-Socialist, March 25, 2010 at 2:49 pm Link to this comment

Jdmystic and all people here: from my own point of view, i think that the USA progressive liberals have a theoretical problem, not the USA marxist left, but the progressive liberals such as Michael Moore.  And the theoretical scientific problem is that they think that there is a way for USA to change outside of government power, what i mean is that they think that by begging to US progressive liberal congress members to make concessions to the US oppressed that things will change for the better.

And i think that is a total waste of precious energies.  I think that it is a lot more scientific for the USA left to unite into a United-Front, to seize government power and from a possition of power to change the USA, but not outside of power.

.

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By heyletsevolve, March 25, 2010 at 2:16 pm Link to this comment

“Your anger makes you irrational. You make assumptions about me that are unwarranted, and not based on any knowledge of me.”

JD,

My anger doesn’t make me irrational, it makes me angry. I am angry, unapologetically. And hearing the cheering for the corrupt Left makes me even angrier.

You make your own unwarranted assumptions, and my statements about your education were based on your own smarmy statements referring again and again to your imaginary degrees or mine.

You don’t know anything more about me than I know about you, but I can tell you that I’ve spent my entire life deeply involved with attempting to make real political change, only to discover that the game is ABSOLUTELY RIGGED. I don’t have much patience any longer for anyone who pretends otherwise.

No, I don’t advocate violent revolution, obviously. I’m not a fool. But I think anger has motivated many successful peaceful revolutions by intelligent people who did one thing different than we have been doing here in the US. They did not give up, and they didn’t fool themselves.

We have to understand what we are really up against, and it’s my interest to keep that first and foremost in people’s minds.

In general, we lefties in the US are a group of truly lazy and spineless people who give a lot of lip service to our ideals and end up spending our free time gratefully being entertained. Our protests are weekend protests—then we go home. And they always have to be a party—we always have to dress up! Street theater and childish theatrics have taken the place of serious efforts to change the system. I’ve been part of it for years, I know how it is.

And the worst of it are the Democrats who defend the party as if it is fundamentally different from the GOP, which is it not. I feel this willful ignorance is at the core of our problems. That is why I will not support any cheering of the Democratic efforts in the past year, because they are not even sad shadow of what they could be if the party as a whole was not a corporate whore, which it absolutely is.

So am I irrational? In an irrational society, who can say? I’m fed up, and I want to go to the doctor without incurring a $500 bill. NOW. Not fifteen years from now. I could be dead by then, or in need of another surgery.

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By cyrena, March 25, 2010 at 1:46 pm Link to this comment

Part 1 of 2
By JDmysticDJ, March 25 at 3:11 am

•  “Did you miss ofersince72’s most recent lengthy post? Calling him a moron is probably abusive. Abuse Hedges, he’s more worthy of abuse (probably.)”

I did “miss” it JD, but it was definitely intentional.  My one response to him, (abusive or not) was a slip. I long ago decided to ignore people like him/her , because as sad as it is, TD pretty much allows for these types to run amok on the site. They couldn’t post this blabberish stuff anywhere else.

And yes, Hedges IS worthy of the abuse, though I would prefer to call it criticism. He’s another sad fact of this website. The irony is that there was a time when Hedges made a little bit of sense, and I appreciated his take on the situation in the Middle East. But he’s been way off the deep end over the past couple or so years…speaking out of turn on issues of which he knows nothing, bringing a fatalist view to everything he chooses to write on. He commits the greatest of intellectual faux pas’, because he never speaks to (even in a standard contrast and comparison) multiple views of the same issues. It’s the typical myopia that believes everything to have only ONE path to whatever needs to be accomplished.

That’s the point I had to make in terms of the labeling of a ‘public option’. Since the words ‘public option’ weren’t included in the bill, then it’s bad. But the reality is that this bill DOES create competition among insurers, because it has the same effect as deregulation. Now that TOO, can certainly have it’s downfalls, and I can name many examples. But I also have examples of how it can provide the SAME AS a public option, without necessarily calling it that.

Example, just this morning I received yet another call from someone trying to sell me an insurance supplement package. Now I am one of the ‘fortunate’ ones, because I have Medicare, but Medicare is also restricted in what it covers, and so a supplement would help me out a lot, even if it only provides the dental and vision that NO private or government insurance coverage has ever allowed for. (well, I take that back…MEDICAID – federally funded for the indigent, DOES cover dental and vision, and the recipients don’t even pay premiums, because they’re indigent. (presumably more indigent than I, but there is clearly a crack in the construction of those parameters, since it’s difficult to reconcile how the so-called indigent have receive better health care than those who are paying premiums, which is my point about the so-called ‘public option’)

Anyway, since Medicare could conceivably be referenced as a ‘public option’ if everyone were allowed to buy into it, it still would not cover (as it is) many of the other health needs that people have. I know from experience that dental care should be considered under MAJOR MEDICAL, but it never has been. So, CONTRARY to what Hedges claims, this insurance is now available to all of us at what I consider to be a reasonable premium, and it’s exactly what I expected to happen. It allows us to NEGOTIATE, (individually and in many cases collectively) for access to health care coverage. Because the bottom line is as it’s always been in our economic structure. When we shop for services, (like insurance) we’re going to look for the least expensive in terms of what we need. If I can buy insurance for $34.00 a month, that provides the SAME or BETTER coverage, then that’s what I would do, and I know that to be the case with anyone else with a brain.

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By cyrena, March 25, 2010 at 1:44 pm Link to this comment

2 of 2

So the bill actually DOES increase competition within the Industry, which is exactly the opposite of what Hedges is claiming. And the whacked out repugs who claim that this is a ‘government takeover’ of the health care industry come out looking as stupid as they are. It would be a ‘government takeover’ if we the people were being FORCED to buy our insurance FROM THE GOVERNMENT. THAT IS NOT THE CASE. This allows us to buy it from wherever we want to buy it, which INCREASES competition.  Far as I’m concerned, THAT is a ‘public option’ but it does require that people do a little bit on their own, to compare and contrast programs, based on their own needs and resources.  And if we’re talking about what the medical profession/providers want, I can assure you that the docs would prefer to get SOME money, rather than NO money for the services they provide.

I don’t pretend that this is an ideal program, and neither does our leadership.  In terms of logistics and the bureaucracy, it would be far better, (or at least more convenient) to have a single payer set up. (but we can also call THAT a MONOPOLY if Chris really wants exercise some linguistic gymnastics. ) It does however, set the ground work for a system that is INCLUSIVE, rather than EXCLUSIVE!!  Hedges et al don’t get that, because of their obsessive myopia.

So I will check the fine print on all of these ‘offers’ and decide which is best for me, and everyone else should do the same. For the millions of people who have been destroyed by the privatization of health care in this country, (and I speak from personal experience) this is a long awaited change.

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By Calabashe, March 25, 2010 at 10:38 am Link to this comment

Tennessee - Sorry Bud don’t count me in on that.

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By Tennessee-Socialist, March 25, 2010 at 10:33 am Link to this comment

JDmysticDJ:  many leftist thinkers of USA agree that the USA needs a permanent revolution divided by stages, in other words the first stage would be to overthrow from power the 1% Oligarchy, the second stage to overthrow the weaker lesser corporate class and the bourgeoise, and the third stage, to radicalize and reform the US constitution and political system even more in order to fully democratize the USA into a real economic-democracy where all americans would be the owners of the wealth of USA thru a system of nationalizations, workers-cooperatives and workers-control of the means of productions of USA

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By lachmund, March 25, 2010 at 7:59 am Link to this comment

I’d recommend a reading of the sobering statement on this health care bill issued by Physicians for a National Health Program, entitled “A False Promise of Reform” at:
http://www.pdamerica.org/articles/alliances/2010-03-23-14-20-14-alliances.php

Their statement mirrors the analysis of Dr. Marcia Angell. Harvard professor and editor emeritus of the New England Journal of Medicine, in her recent interview with Bill Moyers.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03052010/watch3.html

Chris Hedges, thank you for your deep and incisive commentaries. You are one of the clearest thinkers today. Your experience has given you a unique voice that rings darkly true. The “principalities and the powers” are indeed in charge in our country and on our beautiful planet. Hopefully, those of us who see the danger this poses to life can muster the strength and focus and the best within ourselves to resist and live in a humane and kinder way. I must admit though, as I read the progressive blogs, there seems to be a lot of dissension.

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By ofersince72, March 25, 2010 at 5:10 am Link to this comment

I was never intended to get all the written proof
the USN didn’t like it…they knew i was snoopin
I beat to punch…..fooled a gov offical

anyway once the USN found out i got it…
they started tighening everyone up.
the official i fooled into retrieving the evidence had
nerve enough to tell me they were sorry they got it.!!

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By ofersince72, March 25, 2010 at 5:05 am Link to this comment

the thug that lives in Minnesota,  I told his congressman
and senators, that bob was awful lucky that

I wasn’t up in minnesota doing something to him that
would make water boarding look like a strole through
the park,  told his Chamber that toooo…

He was the one I was on liberty with in Japan the night
the command fabricated their first story on me. We were
back to ship by 2200 that night, sober…
He knows it.

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By ofersince72, March 25, 2010 at 5:00 am Link to this comment

All the radiomen that were in radio between Mar/71
and Jun/71 know the whole story ,  they were offered
V.A. disability compensation by the Exec officer to cover.
They been recieving it since they were discharged.
I just found that part out a year ago.. I always knew
they were covering, even back then but figured they were
just needing to cover their butts..
Two years ago is when i first talked to them, they knew
at the time i didn’t have proof of them covering.
I talked to them, figured after all this time they would
tell me what went on,  we were all best friends , ran
around together,  I had rank on all but one,  used to
let them all come spend the weekend at my girl friends
in Englewood.  anyway, when i saw they were stonewalling
me still , I couln’t believe it but told them all stand
by for a ram. Last year, not quite a year ago they found
out I got proof of my story all on gov paper,  they tried
to arrange getting me to Evansville Indianna,  I didn’t
fall for it.  It is a federal crime covering an injustice
and also a crime not coming forward when asked, also
lot of VA fraud.  They could lose everything they own
plus 15 to 20.  They want me gone, way gone.  I was
always smarter then them, though the boy from Texas is a
smart shrewd stubborn Texan.  We were best friends for
almost three years, he dodges me now, only one that was
smart enough,  the others were dumber. They will have to
face me one day, i will sell my house if need be.

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By ofersince72, March 25, 2010 at 4:01 am Link to this comment

Also…..have you listened to the way Clinton and
  Obama talk   when adressing   UN   or news
conf with another head of state…

Clinton uses the word “we”  an awful lot when
speaking of U.S.  policy.  But the   we   she
speaks   of   is   never   the   us,  for no one, hardly   any,  are   for   the   policies she supports   and   is willing   to send   people to   die   for.  No Ms. Clinton it not we,,,it you !!!
and ur corporate friends.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So   her   daughter,  and   the   two Obama
daughters   ought   to   have   to   live in GAZA
How   would   you like   that there   HILARY ?????
AND MICHEAL ???/  little different then isn’t it?
put some   combat boots on your daughter send
her to Afghan hilary…  you tooo mrs.  obama…now.
They just steal our military for their corporate
friends,  or use tax payer $$$$$$ for   Xe

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By ofersince72, March 25, 2010 at 2:41 am Link to this comment

another one or two liner…first don’t know what is
goin on over on Sheer’s mod repub blog, i will leave them
alone, i have hogged, however, i am not repeating old
crap and i hope someone overthere points out that it is
the CENTRISTS.  NOW

THAT   THIS   ARROGANT   SMOOTH   TALKING   PRESIDENT

  OF   OURS   ......TOOOK   KUCINACH UP   IN   AF1

AND   TWISTED   HIS   ARM   TO   GET   SUPPORT

FOR   A     CORPORATE   PIECE   OF   LEGISLATION

SHOULD   TURN   EVERY   STOMACH   IN   AMERICA !!!!!

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By ofersince72, March 25, 2010 at 12:38 am Link to this comment

Dennis kucinach will always have my respect.
His job was a stake,  I may have done the same, don’t know
You got my bell curve correct though.

JD , we are approx the same age..
look where this country has been since 1970, and always
controlled by the Centrists. This country had no more
than two decades of golden years, that is just talking
union representation and living wages and ins.
It is leaving out all of the social injustice and
involvement into other governments business.
THAT HAS NEVER STOPPED FROM DAY ONE OF THIS COUNTRIES
EXISTANCE.  It won’t with the Centrists running the
show.  You do have to admit to some of Obama’s
corpocrat dictates.  This bill was no different.

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By ofersince72, March 25, 2010 at 12:23 am Link to this comment

Hey JD , will won’t see eye to eye on this bill
for a while,

  I hope that i am wrong, but i doubt that i am,
if i am ,  i will apologize,

I refuse to let it make me dislike very good people
as yourself. 

Peace JD

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By ofersince72, March 25, 2010 at 12:12 am Link to this comment

C Y R E N A

  I much prefer BABOON to moron if you must

  or maybe a moronic BABOON would even do

    but   B A B O O N   will remain my favorite

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By JDmysticDJ, March 25, 2010 at 12:11 am Link to this comment

Ofersince72

No bell curve? Kucinich and Boehner are together in the centrist party? Hum…? Probably not.

Your   “ANOTHER       ONEORTWO     LINER,” was genius. This one is probably not.

Cyrena

Did you miss ofersince72’s most recent lengthy post? Calling him a moron is probably abusive. Abuse Hedges, he’s more worthy of abuse (probably.)

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By ofersince72, March 24, 2010 at 11:58 pm Link to this comment

The slurs that everyone defending this garbage
throw are pretty good proof in themselves.

  you are the one that sounds like a tea bagger

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By ofersince72, March 24, 2010 at 11:55 pm Link to this comment

This Moron says yes it is…It is a piece of trash
legislation made into law.  It has foolish ones like
defending it just to make Obama look legit.

Its a shame repulicans are going to have to save us
from it.

Health ins. reform…......they didn’t a year to do that.
you don’t know what is in that bill anymore than this
moron…..

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By cyrena, March 24, 2010 at 11:17 pm Link to this comment

By ofersince72, March 24 at 11:38 pm #

C Y R E N A

That was about the weakest rationalization for this
crap of a law one could type from a keyboard !!!!!!!!!!!!

~+~+~

My post wasn’t a ‘rationalization’ for anything moron. It was my opinion on the rhetoric espoused by the perpetual naysayer - Chris Hedges. He crossed the line this time, throwing out bullshit he didn’t even try to back up with fact, statistics, or any counter view about the millions of people who will be HELPED by this legislation.

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By stuartbramhall, March 24, 2010 at 11:04 pm Link to this comment

Single payer doesn’t require everyone to “have coverage.” It offers a publicly run system of payment for everyone - but in all countries that have single payer health care (all industrialized countries except the US) both doctors and patients are free to opt out and give and receive care privately. However since it’s covered by payroll taxes everyone pays for it - whether they use it or not.

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By ofersince72, March 24, 2010 at 11:03 pm Link to this comment

They thought i would be in fetal position by mid July/72.
We were in Nam…amphibious…we had 320 marines and
about the same in crew on a three hundred ft. LST.  They
were carrying most of troops on ships trying decieve the
public back home that they were withdrawing troops.  We
also a couple of time loaded and extra 200 ,14 and 15
yr old Vietnamese boys in uniform and landed them to their
death wanting to show how the S. Viet army was coming along fine.
  By then I had gone through four and a half months of
total sleep depravation,  also total alienation by the
crew, those that didn’t comply , well, one friend lost his
knee for refusing.  Really it was a few of the marines that saved my life.
  But I was still on my feet in Augest, they tried just
about everything.  Get this, in enemy waters and going
through a sleep dep, had me standing the after lookout
watch 0000 to 0400 EVERYNIGHT, wouldn’t allow me to sleep
during the day or evening and i was responsible to keep
the ship safe.
  The Alienation was worse than the sleep dep., lost a
lot of close friends.  Anyway, I had to watch the carpet
bombing every night, i was suprised so few came out on deck to see it everynight.  Marines what kept me alive.
Several of them. They couldn’t understand what was going
on with me but knew something wasn’t right and what take
turns checking up me everynight on watch to see if i was
OK.  I was was still on my feet First week of September
and they were getting frustrated so cut me orders to be
airlifted to prison camp in Saigon.  Luckly , dad had been
worried enough to contact a congressman and he got me off
the ship about six hours before i was to be airlifted to
Saigon prison camp.  This last six months was the crescendo of a year and a half persecution,  I was basically confined to the ship that long.  Had a couple
of liberties in that year and half, maybe add up to three
or four weeks.
It was all the result of me Saving My Captains Command
for him on our first trip to Nam in 1970.  I trained all
the radiomen on that ship,  all new radiomen were sent to
my watch section to get trained.
The Supply Officer was really cool, he protected me as long as he could but he didn’t make the last trip to Nam
with us.  They plans were to kill me, but when they
couldn’t do that ,,,the shape that i was in when i got
out, most either die from substance or alcohol, or suicide
by the time they are thirty.  They instilled shame into
me for things that i was never guilty of, forever.  I
never told anyone this story until about a year and a half
ago…never even told dad..or my wife..or my siblings.
Mostly i didnt tell anyone i was in the military except
employers had to know.  I did abuse alcohol for about
four years afther discharge maybe five.  I mean a round
for me was a shot of teq, scotch and water and a beer.
I was on my way,  at 27, i looked in the mirror , didn’t
like what i saw started a rigorous fitness program.
Before I was thirty I could crank 110 miles before noon.
I used to get up on Sunday , Fells Point area Balt. and
cycle up to Whitford quarries in PA., swim a mile and
crank home, be there before noon, then crank around Balt.
“sightseeing” the rest of the day. OR to Annapolis .
When I showed up with a FCC licence in the Pentagon
in 1984, chief tech installing communications equipment
the government was taken aback.  They ruined that career
for me. and on and on and on.

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By ofersince72, March 24, 2010 at 9:41 pm Link to this comment

How convienient for the CENTRISTS that run

our country to get rid of ACORN…....

They were able to blame it on the repub centrists.
go figure !!! 
But it was the Democrat Centrists that defunded them!!!

THEY ARE ALL THE SAME !!!!!!
They have very good people fooled into believing a
difference…..they do this through FOX AND MSNBC.
There is no left or right wing conspiracy…ITS A HOAX !!!
TO keep the Centrists in power….It is the Centrist party

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By ofersince72, March 24, 2010 at 9:19 pm Link to this comment

Hey Cala man…..None of what i am writing is to be
  taken personally by anyone other than those inside
the beltway.  I Love Everyone !!!!!!

No matter how you shake it , this is a bad law
no matter democrat or republican…

right now our country and the world is in a bad crisis
with our military that we keep expanding and killing with.
The hypocracy of signing a treaty with Russia as we are
upgrading our nuclear arsenal is another sad reflection
on this flawed health ins reform bill…which was not
supposed to be an ins reform bill to begin with.
Sheer and the rest of the media ought to be organizing
the elections for this november…. everyone needs to go
and if they don’t have a spot for a write in, then the
ballot should just be marked present.  there shouldn’t be
a sole other than bankers and execs that vote for either
a democrat or republican….they will get the messege.
it will scare the hell out of them !!!!!!!!!!!!!

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By Calabashe, March 24, 2010 at 8:57 pm Link to this comment

ofie - I think that number is 32 million more will be insured. Just sayin’

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By ofersince72, March 24, 2010 at 8:53 pm Link to this comment

/\/\/\//\/\/\/\ look at this billboard Mr. obama/\/\/\/\/\

  *******  it is more like 50 million without coverage
        have you checked since the depression hit???

  any way you got , so you say ,  16 mil   of them

that sure leaves a whole lot out   AND GUESS WHAT

  first black president…....most of the ones left out
        WILL   BE   YOUNG   BLACK   MEN
NO PROBLEM THOUGH   JUST   BUILD   MORE   PRISONS FOR
THEM AND HIDE THEM AWAY…...BINGO..OH, I FORGOT THATS
WHAT WE ARE ALREADY DOING…AT LEAST YOU BROUGHT IT DOWN
TO   30 TO   1 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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By ofersince72, March 24, 2010 at 8:38 pm Link to this comment

C Y R E N A

That was about the weakest rationalization for this
crap of a law one could type from a keyboard !!!!!!!!!!!!

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By JDmysticDJ, March 24, 2010 at 8:34 pm Link to this comment

Tennessee – Socialist

“Usury (pronounced /?ju???ri/, comes from the Medieval Latin usuria, “interest” or from the Latin usura “interest”) originally meant the charging of interest on loans. This included charging a fee for the use of money, such as at a bureau de change.”

“The First Council of Nicaea in 325, forbade clergy from engaging in usury[1] (canon 17). At the time “usury” meant simply interest of any kind, and the canon merely forbade the clergy to lend money on interest above one per cent per month. Later ecumenical councils applied this regulation to the laity.”[1][2]

“Lateran III decreed that persons who accepted interest on loans could receive neither the sacraments nor Christian burial.[3] Pope Clement V made the belief in the right to usury a heresy in 1311, and abolished all secular legislation which allowed it.[4] Pope Sixtus V condemned the practice of charging interest as “detestable to God and man, damned by the sacred canons and contrary to Christian charity.”[4]

“Theological historian John Noonan argues that “the doctrine [of usury] was enunciated by popes, expressed by three ecumenical councils, proclaimed by bishops, and taught unanimously by theologians.”

There is some historical support for much of what you claim, but I doubt you will win many converts in today’s world.

My own belief is that Capitalism is immoral and that there are, and have been, many examples that verify that belief.

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By ofersince72, March 24, 2010 at 8:26 pm Link to this comment

A N O T H E R     O N E O R T W O   L I N E R


millions upon millions of human beings around the world

are begging, pleading,  down on their knees praying,

in hopes that the citizens of   the united states

of   america gets hold of their militarisic,

bullying and thieving   government   before   the

phosphorous, and clouster ,  or probably nuclear

sunday show   comes to   them.!!!!!!!!!!!!
while we are arguing how much money insurance companies
should get for a runny nose…..............

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By cyrena, March 24, 2010 at 8:22 pm Link to this comment

•  “….is a perfect example of why I would never be a politician. I respect Kucinich. As politicians go, he is about as good as they get, but he is still a politician. He has to run for office. He has to raise money. He has to placate the Democratic machine or risk retaliation and defeat….”
And this is yet ANOTHER perfect example of why you (Hedges) SHOULDN’T be a politician.
There is absolutely NOTHING in this piece that suggests that Chris Hedges has any respect for Kucinich, or his responsibilities to his constituency. Either that, or Hedges is just a puffed up moron drunk on his own rhetoric. For anyone LISTENING to Dennis Kucinich when he explained why he was changing his mind, it would have been very clear….he referenced his CONSTITUENCY, as in…the residents of Cleveland!!  THEY NEED HEALTH CARE!!! And yes, this is another of the many examples where SOME is better than NONE! And since Dennis Kucinich IS a conscientious politician, among the best, as was Ted Kennedy, as is Barack Obama, as are many others, he sacrificed his own ‘purity of ideology’ and made some painful concessions based on REALITY!! And the REALITY to a person in need of health care is that SOME is better than NONE!  This determination by Hedges that he has to raise money, and he has to ‘placate the democratic machine or risk retaliation and defeat “ is a colossal insult to the character and integrity of the man he claims to respect. 
So yeah Hedges, if YOU were the one designated to go off and negotiate for food for your family/community/ whatever, and came back empty-handed and told them that; there was no asparagus available, the melons were too expensive, and you didn’t like the cut of the meats, so you just didn’t get ANYTHING - - - they could and SHOULD…..WHUP YOUR ASS!!! Now THAT would be retaliation and defeat, and it would be richly deserved.
Nobody has claimed this to be the ideal outcome, including the President. In fact, Obama’s first words made that clear, “this is NOT a RADICAL reform!” And it’s not a radical reform because RADICAL fixes typically have NEGATIVELY radical outcomes. The reality is that without this reform, things would have become far worse for even more people.
Chris Hedges has neither the grounds or the expertise to compare this to the system in Massachusetts.  There’s also no grounds for stating possibilities as givens. Like this:
•  “Insurance companies can unilaterally raise prices without ceilings or caps and monopolize local markets to shut out competitors.”
Yeah, theoretically they COULD, but that doesn’t mean that they WILL, because that would be bad business. We aren’t talking about a market based ‘commodity here’ like airline travel, or anything similar. We’re talking about health care, and the PROVIDERS of that care (medical professionals, not insurance companies) don’t have your same ‘all or none’ mentality.  So a ‘smart’ insurer would LOWER their prices to drive out competition, not the opposite.
•  “Give the people a chance to really negotiate rates with the insurance companies … from the standpoint of having a public option.”

Just more rhetoric here, and no sign of any knowledge of how the SAME THING can be accomplished, even it if doesn’t have the label ‘public option’  attached to it.  Some folks just get stuck on stupid, and Chris Hedges has the worst case of myopia as any I’ve ever come across.

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Tennessee-Socialist's avatar

By Tennessee-Socialist, March 24, 2010 at 7:17 pm Link to this comment

DEAR FRIENDS: DON’T BELIEVE IN CAPITALIST POLITICIANS, ALL CAPITALIST POLITICIANS WORK FOR THE DEVIL, THEY ARE EVIL AND CAPITALISTS, GOOD IS ONLY GOD AND HE IS IN THE HEAVEN ABOVE.  JESUS CHRIST WILL RETURN SOON TO OVERTHROW THE CAPITALIST SYSTEM THRU THE REVOLUTIONARY LEFTISTS OF THIS WORLD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMiPdR2vtX0

I believe that what USA needs is a United Christian Socialist Workers Front with ministers and pastors from the different socialist churches like Reverend Wright, workers movements, workers parties, communists, socialists, anarchists, feminists, black nationalists, anti-zionists, progressive libertarians, progressive constitutionalists, with the ideology of the first true socialist: Jesus Christ, Jefferson, Lincoln, Marx, Trotsky, Lenin, Martin Luther King, Chief Sitting Bull, Malcom x, Fred Hampton, Bill Ayers, Eugene Debs, Howard Zinn, Cesar Chavez, all united with a single goal of overthrowing the oligarchic zionist satanic corporate 1% Oligarchy which has destroyed this country via democrats and republicans for 100 years


.

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By JDmysticDJ, March 24, 2010 at 6:59 pm Link to this comment

Ofersince72

Are we in sync now?

Good tag, (Actually, unless I’ve been hoodwinked, it was a great post, according to my appraisal.)

I think that most of us want peace and justice.

Peace! (And justice)

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By ofersince72, March 24, 2010 at 6:50 pm Link to this comment

******** B A C K     T O   B I L L B O A R D S ********

  that is just why eCONomists, both liberal and
                            conservative

drink from the same cup and

B O T H   A RE   F U L L   O F   S H I T ! ! ! ! !

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By ofersince72, March 24, 2010 at 6:42 pm Link to this comment

None of the Ivy grads can debunk the centrist control
of this country and why it is that way !!!!!!

Also no one has yet to “Show Me” (im from MO) the math
that can prove a way in which “progressive” democrats
will be able to overcome the odds of this centrist control

356 to 65…......show me how and the money any grassroots
movement is going to overcome those odds within thirty
years.  You get my point, thirty years will be waaayyyy
tttoooo late !!!!!!!!

That is just why i have been saying , the quickest way
and only way possibly to overcome those odds is quit
thinking inside that centrist box. Don’t vote for them
at all.
If all those who endorsed Obama were sincere,  they would
be organizing demonstrations and economic boycotts that
had some bite and calling black, black,  and white, white
before the November elections, however,  none of them, and
they all just happen to be centrists, have showed any
sincerity to their “progressive”  endorsement. !!!!!!!!!

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