“- - ´health care’ and ‘industry’ together, it just doesn’t sound quite
right, does it?” gordonmcinnes

Add the info at the following link:

http://www.infiniteunknown.net/tag/vaccine/

to the combination, “health care” + ”industry”, for an accurate view of the goal of the world-wide, slow genocide program being advanced via “inoculation” by Bill Gates-types. 
Super rich Satanists.

Your grandchildren and children are primary targets - if they are human beings - and still among the living.

When you put the words ‘health care’ and ‘industry’ together, it just doesn’t sound quite right, does it? Just like ‘budget’ and ‘airlines’ – by god, you’d wonder, how do airlines and more specifically, airplanes, budget exactly?

In the end, through all this drama, the ones who get hurt are always the citizens of America. They need to pay huge amounts of moneys for visits to doctors, chiropractors, specialists. It seems like it will take time for this to be settled.

also, a great documentary to watch albeit completely unrelated to this is inside job.

i have not seen this documentary but I can safely say it is about time.  What you forget is that the medical industry is an industry.  In a capitalist society like what we live in industry’s strive to to do one thing and that is make money.  Insurance companies try to make money over helping people and that is the bottom line

“It’s a damned lie to say that the Republican party is a wholly owned subsidiary of the insurance industry.”

From my viewpoint, a deliberate falsehood is a lie, and all such are more or less “damned.”  However, so much naivete´ is published in Truthdig blogs, there are possibly people who believe the idea.  It appears that the “Republican” party is not owned by any singular entity. Especially the Floridians, who are still searching for their anus, which was misused, abnormally, by the GHWBushSr entourage, which hasn´t fully returned it. Who, are setting the stage to slide “Jebbie” in front of “AXIS Hilly” for the U.S. “presidency.”  However, historically viewed, the so-called “Republican” party has been steered essentially by the GHWBushSr entourage. 

Go back to 1945, review Operation Paper Clip and reiterations, the subsequent emergence of, all-of-a sudden person, G.H.W. Bush Sr. in Texas.  GHWBSr, who was the secretive director of the CIA, after it was transformed from the OSS by NAZI SS general Gehlin.

Review the recent video of John Stockwell et.al. about the internationally criminal role of the NAZI element within the C.I.A.  Follow the dots.  From the reports by fellow pilots that GHWBSr crashed his plane unnecessarily, with two crew-members on board. Include the GHWBSr suppression in Brownsville of involvement of his junior in 1985, in the murder and skinning of a covy of seventeen, alleged, hippie-types, in which covy junior was a member.  Include junior´s druggie history.  Include junior´s pardon of the documented murderer in Texas of over 250 victims, yet junior supported the death sentence in Texas of 17 prisoners subsequently proved to be innocent.  Connect the dots.

Review the first four years of junior´s reign as U.S. “president” and pre-election politics.  Review the Florida election 2004, falsified by the governor, Jeb Bush.  Include the Patriot Act, the machinations of Rumsfeld, the machinations of Cheney, the machinations of the appointed “attorney generals.”  Review the scientific information regarding the destruction of the Twin Towers and the 3rd bldg.  Review the Chronicles of Chip Tatum, former assassin for GHWBSr, and the Chronicles of Ted Gunderson, former chief of the larger section of the California FBI.  Be near the toilet before you connect the last group of dots.

For some of the people posting here NOBODY is quite pure enough for them. Michael Moore and Amy Goodman not pure enough?
This is politics, folks. You choose the best allies available or you wank off in the corner cranking out irate posts about how nobody is pure enough.
Things are getting serious here, or has that not penetrated to your ivory tower? It’s coming to a fight. Time to choose up sides. I’ll take action with imperfect humans who have a lifelong track record over solitary crystalline purity every time.

It’s a damned lie to say that the Republican party is a wholly owned subsidiary of the insurance industry. What about the energy industry, the chemical industry. The financial industry, for God’s sake.
The Republican Party is a wholly owned subsidiary of anybody who has enough money to pay their price. If you represent an industry or cartel not mentioned here, please feel free to contact your Republican Congressperson or Senator to discuss how you might become a shareholder.

The U.S. Gov. doesnt need hundreds of NASA, CIA, NSA
and others to “blog-out” responsible, adult blogs. 

Two can do it with teen-age-girlish, back and forth
jabber.

JDMystic

Wow. You Democrats are just a wee bit sensitive. I never said that you were stupid. You are being fooled. There is a huge difference.

This is one more case of cyber misunderstanding

Michael Cavlan RN

Thanks for saying you don’t believe I’m evil, only stupid. I’ll take stupid over evil anytime, and that is why I prefer Democrats to Republicans.

Let me reciprocate, good luck with getting rational people to believe that Michael Moore, and Amy Goodman, are nefarious shills for Democrats, and not part of the solution. Yeah! Good luck with that.

JDMystic

For the record, I do not view you or people like you as bad or evil.

I do believe, most sincerely that you are being fooled, tricked by the people that
George Carlin described as the “real owners of this place..”

God Speed Ireland and her peoples examples.

JDMystic

You are right. There is no longer any need to go round and around on this.

You and people like you see working with the “lesser evil” Dems as a way to
stave off the “greater evil” Republicans.

People who view the world politically as I do see the Democrats as being the
problem, not the solution.

It really is that simple. There is no getting around that.

Fortunately, for you Dems, you have access to the corporate media, power,
rules and laws.

Which ironically make those of us who view the Dems as the problem correct.
From out perspective.

You see, I REALLY do see politics as theatre, Kabuki Theatre which helps keep
voices of outrage and dissent marshaled and muffled.

God Speed the day that people wake up and decide to do something about it.

Michael Cavlan RN

I would have been “bowled over,” if you had acknowledged that all Democrats in the House of Representatives voted for hearings, and only 9 Republicans voted in favor of the hearings. Clearly there is a difference between Democrats and Republicans, and those differences cause people like me to prefer Democrats to Republicans.

Conyers has been in the Congress for a quarter of a century, he was something of a progressive in the eighties when he opposed Reagan’s policies, but I personally give no credence to his progressive credentials, he has become a political pragmatist,  and he no longer fights for progressive ideals. As sad as it is, Conyers quite correctly pointed out that there would not be the required votes necessary to convict Bush and his coterie of criminals.

“It was shortly after this happened that suddenly there was “progressives” saying
that Cindy was “tired” or a ‘media whore.’”

“Mother Sheehan is heading home.
The freckled face of the Left is giving up the front page photo ops, the global trips, the Marxist dictator coddling… and heading back home after giving up on the Democratic Party and liberal news outlets who used her like a cheap media whore.”

Charles Krauthammer said that, surely you know who Charles Krauthammer is. Here’s a hint, he’s a right-wing neo-con, not a Democrat. Disparaging Democrats is his full time job.

If you have examples of Democrats calling Cyndi a media whore, please be specific, simple allegations are… just unsupported allegations. Did Cyndi say the Democrats treated her like a cheap whore? Do you have examples of Democrats making this despicable comment? Cyndi did fall from the limelight, but why?

“In what she described as a “resignation letter,” Sheehan wrote in her online diary on the “Daily Kos” blog: “Good-bye America ... you are not the country that I love and I finally realized no matter how much I sacrifice, I can’t make you be that country unless you want it.”

It appears to me that Cyndi gave up on the country, and I don’t blame her, I would like to give up on this country too, and it’s impossible to say if I would in her position give up too, it would only be conjecture and it’s not worth contemplating.

I find your logic difficult to understand. A site such as daily KOS is going to have a left wing slant. Are you saying that everyone who disagrees with you is biased and guilty of nefarious conduct? Conyers and Ellison are Democrats, they’re going to tout Democrats and Democratic policies, but somehow, you provide this as proof of some mysterious skullduggery.

“If you can say that John Conyers is a scum-bag, well then we have hope.”

I’ll take scumbag Conyers over a scumbag Republican every time. I have no hope of a meeting of the minds between you and I. Why don’t you call Obama disconnected, stupid, misguided, wrong headed, or some such thing? I believe he’s an arrogant but well meaning fool. I believe his foreign and national security policies are devilish, but I don’t believe he’s the devil. I prefer Obama to any Republican you can name. I believe he’s lesser, when considering the above adjectives, while any Republican would be greater.

In my reasoned opinion, Obama’s end will lead to a greater evil. It’s a sad fact of current political reality. As I’ve tried to explain innumerable times, reform of the Democratic Party holds the best, if not the only hope of improving conditions. Voting for a losing third Party will divide the Left/Center and cause the Democratic Party to lose; we’ll be out of the frying pan, and into the fire.

Going back to 2006, I held views similar to yours, but now I believe that we’ll have to hold our noses for a while, before things can get better. Holding our noises against the stench of Republicans will serve no purpose and the odor will linger and cause a lethal nausea.

The example of the response to Cindy Sheehan´s
remarks about “H. Clinton” (whom insiders-and
outsiders- consider to be a many-times larger
scum-bag than Conyers) might be enlarged. 

Connect the dots.
Begin with Operation Paper Clip; include extensions
thru 1948.
Allen Dulles contracted NAZI SS General Gehlin to
revamp the OSS into the CIA.
George H. W. Bush Sr. was the secretive director of
the CIA since before the JFKSr murder.
Until his distractive letter to J. Edgar Hoover, one
week after the murder, was revealed.
Revealed by insiders, about twenty years later.
J.F.K.Jr., a N.Y. senatorial shoo-in, until removed,
making way for H. Clinton ?
One wealthy Clinton supporter reported via video that
he made a $2 million campaign gift to   H. Clinton
that she did not report.  Yet, ant-sized gifts are
sometimes prosecuted.
The history of the CIA, as reported by Congressperson
Dr. Ron Paul.
The history of the CIA, as video-reported by Mr. John
Stockwell, a former CIA chief-type.
Also, the Chronicles of Chip Tatum, a former
assassin-type for GHWBushSr.

One tends to get the idea that Mrs. H. Clinton is one
of the “chosen,” as was GHWBSr. 
“Chosen” by the satanical group that
meets annually in a grove in California?
Of course, GHWBJr. was only a good little puppet,
who did as instructed. (which he may, some day,
possibly comprehend – too late ? )

The Wikileaks violates national security?  How, by
revealing the facts?  Does this mean that the secret
agents of various politicos will now begin to knock
each other off, as retribution for the ugly mouthings
against each other?

Do we need to prepare ourselves for more
airliners “falling” out of the sky,
or small airplanes mysteriously crashing
into the ocean?  Can´t be blamed on Osama
bin Laden, who died, Winter 2002-2003 of
renal failure, after two unsuccessful kidney
transplants - - .

What about the secretive pictures
of the beautiful ladies
“randomly” selected to be scanned by the
trashy TSA pimpery? 
Are TSA employees selected on the basis of
NAZI-related, family history?

Are these pictures being turned over to high-level
politicos, for future investigation?
Similar to “investigations” personally conducted
privately by Mr. Wm. Clinton in D.C. and Germany?

JDmystic

Not sure if it is worthwhile but….

Specifics on smearing Cindy Sheehan

I remember when Cindy Sheehan was speaking at an event in Minneapolis. The
large crowd was cheering her wildly as she talked about GW Bush. THEN she
started speaking about Hillary Clinton. The crowd went deadly silent. You could
see thew looks of puzzlement. Almost like “Cindy, you missed the script. Bush
bad and ONLY Bush bad.”

It was shortly after this happened that suddenly there was “progressives” saying
that Cindy was “tired” or a “media whore.” In fact is you want to see this kind of
thing evident, just go visit Daily KOS. You will see this displayed all the time.
Repubs bad, Dems good. If you speak out on Dem complicity, then you bad
too.

On John Conyers, well I was bowled over by your comment. I agree and in fact I
had publicly challenged John Conyers and Local Congressman Keith Ellison at
an event in Minneapolis a few years ago.

Both of these men are in the acclaimed “progressive caucus” of the Dem Party.

If you can say that John Conyers is a scum-bag, well then we have hope.

Both of these men pimped their “progressive” creds for president OilyBomber
and for the Democratic Party..

But here is the real test for you Mystic. You call him a scum-bag here. In the
privacy of this space.. Would you do so in public, with Democrats present?

By Michael Cavlan RN, November 30 at 12:49 am Link to this comment

“Is it worthwhile to continue discussion here?”

Not really, but I’m willing if you are.

“of COURSE the Democrats have smeared Cindy Sheehan. Not the Dem leaders and elected officials. By Dems I mean Dem supporters.”

“Of COURSE” lacks some specificity, doesn’t it?

“Although John Conyers did have her arrested inn his office. When she challenged him on no Impeachment.”

Conyers is a scumbag. He hasn’t yet gotten what he deserves. Cyndi and 45 supporters got arrested and had to pay 50 bucks.

Jon Ponder | Jul. 16, 2008
“There will be a hearing related to Rep. Dennis Kucinich’s ‘Article of Impeachment’ against George Bush in the House Judiciary Committee. That was assured by a vote of 238 to 180 on Tuesday.”

(You remember Kucinich don’t you, he’s one of the Democratic leaders you hate / smear?)

“There were no Democratic votes against holding the hearing. While 180 Republicans voted to follow their Dear Leader lock-step over the cliff, 10 Republicans abstained and nine Republican members of Congress voted with…”

Do you have any other rationales for your attacks on Michael Moore, Amy Goodman, Dennis Kucinich, et al?

OK

Four 12 hour + shifts at the hospital ended.

Is it worthwhile to continue discussion here?

of COURSE the Democrats have smeared Cindy Sheehan. Not the Dem leaders
and elected officials. By Dems I mean Dem supporters.

Although John Conyers did have her arrested inn his office.

When she challenged him on no Impeachment.

Just for starters.

It just shows that he is doing something right, which is more than you can say about your “free” media which, because they are tied in to advertising revenue, from companies such as these, as their main means of survival, they cannot, therefore, ever be truly objective.

I would just like to remind some of you that we have a two party system.  When you speak of dumping the Dems for a better alternative, who exactly would that be?

The first thing an invading army needs to do if it hopes to occupy a country is take over the radio, television and news papers. 
Mission Accomplished.

Then they launch a campaign of fear, uncertainty and doubt to turn the people against their own legitimate government.
Mission Accomplished.

Then they present themselves as the only provider of goods, services and security. 
Mission Accomplished. 

Welcome to the United Corporations of America.

I will

however, right now I am working a series of four 12 hour+ shifts at the hospital. The last of them will be on Sunday.

Then I will be only too happy to addrss these points.

Till then…...

Solidarity even when we disagree. At least we can discuss it here.

Thanks TruthDig

JD:
I offer you your own advice to me!..(lol)

By Michael Cavlan RN, November 25 at 7:10 pm Link to this comment

Ummm

“let me be more specific here.”

I appreciate specificity, would you mind being more specific.

“Ralph Nader was right. Attacked and smeared by Democrats”

Can you give specific examples of Democrats attacking and smearing Nader.

From Wikipedia:

The concept of the smear campaign is related to the concepts of propaganda, media bias, yellow journalism, and other falsehood-related terms such as libel and pejoration. In extreme cases, smear campaigns may lead to widespread persecution, such as in the case of the Dolchstoßlegende before WWII.

From Answers.com

1.  To stain or attempt to destroy the reputation of; vilify: political enemies who smeared his name.
From the Free dictionary

a. Vilification or slander.
b. A vilifying or slanderous remark.

According to my lexicon, disagreement and criticism does not qualify as being a smear. I have seen no attack ads by Democrats directed at Nader, and you’ll note that although I disagreed with and criticized Nader, I did not defame him or call him a villain, quite the contrary, I said I admire him but questioned his actual value as a politician.

If you believe your lexicon refutes mine, would you agree that you and others have “smeared” Amy Goodman and Michael Moore, according to your own lexicon?

Michael Cavlan RN (Cont.)

“Cindy Sheehan was right. Was loved by Democrats, right until she started pointing out Democrats complicity. Now hated and smeared, then ignored.”

Again I’ll have to ask you to be specific, can you give specific examples of Democrats hating and smearing Cyndi Sheehan? Having done some research on this matter, I have found examples of right-wing hatred, and smearing, of Cyndi Sheehan, but not any examples of Democrats hating and smearing Cyndi Sheehan. Cyndi Sheehan has fell from the limelight before the 2008 presidential campaign, are you blaming democrats for that fall? Apparently you are. Do you have specific examples of Democrats causing that fall.

“Cynthia McKinney was right about Democrats. Ignored and then smeared by Democrats (the famous phone throwing incident)”

Maybe I’m not a good representative of Democrats, because I define myself as a Democratic Socialist, a leftist, and something of a rebel. I like Cynthia McKinney, I think we need more people like Cynthia McKinney, Michael Moore, and Amy Goodman, but I do think her Green Party involvement was counter productive, and motivated by self interest, rather than the ultimate best interests of our country. I lack enough information to determine whether Cynthia overreacted in the “Phone throwing incident” John Stewart, said Cynthia is “Batcrap Crazy” which only confirms my opinion that John Stewart is a lightweight. Regrettably I’ll have to concede that John Stewart is representative of some Democrats, but I’ll argue that he is a Centrist Democrat, if a Democrat at all. I’ll argue that John Stewart is a self interested apolitical iconoclast, always looking for an outrageous punch line to get a rise from his audience. I’ll argue that John Stewart stepped in it, with his meaningless centrist demonstration, and that he has already experienced “blow-back” from good Democrats.

This from Democrats.com regarding Cynthia McKinney:

The media’s attempt to portray Cynthia McKinney as crazy is a repeat of the media’s character assassination campaigns against Anita Hill and Lani Guinier. In all three cases, outspoken black women have been attacked for daring to express ideas that challenge the white male establishment. History has shown that both Anita Hill and Lani Guinier were telling the truth. History will also show that Cynthia McKinney is telling the truth. We believed Anita Hill and Lani Guinier - and we believe Cynthia McKinney too.

Are you operating under the misapprehension that the main stream media is dominated by Democrats? Are you by any chance listening to right-wing media outlets? Those sources will confuse you, and I have to say that I think you are confused.

Michael Cavlan RN (Cont.)

“Chris Hedges has been right. Ignored by Democrats.”

I kid you not, as I’m writing this, I’m listening to Chris Hedges on the Thom Harmann show promoting his book, “Death of the Liberal Class.” Thom Harmann is: An avowed advocate of Democratic Socialism as practiced in Europe, a critic of Democratic policies, a qualified supporter of Democrats, and in agreement with Hedges on nearly all his points. However, Thom just said there is a great difference between Democrats and Republicans. I’ve also heard Hedges on the “Ring of Fire” radio program. Bobby Kennedy Jr., Mike Pampantonio, and David Bender, have criticized Democratic Policies and continue to support the Democratic Party. Are these people shills to you and your ilk? Are you “smearing” each and every person who is a Democrat, or prefers Democrats, simply because of Political Party membership or preference. Be specific, but let me warn you, being specific in this matter may cause some to believe you are an irrational, counter productive, extremist.

Incidentally, do you believe Hedges is guilty of “smearing” the “Liberal Class.” When he declared liberals are “…Our greatest traitors”

Chris Wright was right about Democrats. Ignored.

I’ll have to agree, Chris Wright is being ignored by Democrats, outside of Minnesota, but Chris Wright is being ignored by everyone, outside of Minnesota. The only reference I could find on the webb, was his personal website. His rallying cry is interesting, “Hemp for Victory.” Personally, I think his stance on legalization is rational, but I’m wondering, what sort of victory Hemp will bring. Did he criticize Democrats, it’s not a part of the public domain, outside of Minnesota. Inquiring minds want to know, is he “smearing” Democrats?

“Glen Ford of Black Agenda Report was right about Democrats. Ignored.”

From what I can gather, Glen Ford is a Cynthia McKinney supporter, whose major complaint is Hedge Fund contributions to Democrats.

From Bloomberg:

“Donors say they’re giving more to Democrats because of their dismay over President George W. Bush’s performance on issues such as the war in Iraq and because they see a real chance for Democrats to win control of Congress for the first time in 12 years.”

Free Republic:

•  Obama angers hedge funds

•  Funds Face Tax Increase in Obama’s Budget - NYTimes.com

•  Obama Aides Go on TV to Criticize Wall Street - NYTimes.com

Battered Hedge Fund Managers’ Syndrome
By Michelle Malkin •  May 8, 2009 09:32 AM
“My column today looks at the abusive relationship between Barack Obama and the hedge fund industry. He keeps taking their money. They keep getting publicly tongue-lashed.”

From Bloomberg

“McCrery’s comments are a boost for congressional Democrats who have crafted myriad proposals this year targeting managers of hedge funds and buyout firms who they say are too lightly taxed.
The anti-deferral bill, originally proposed by Massachusetts Senator John Kerry and Illinois Representative Rahm Emanuel, both Democrats, is separate from a more sweeping measure that would more than double the tax rate on performance fees that fund managers earn, known as carried interest.”

•  Some Things Never Change: GOP Opposes Bank Regulation (lawyers ...

“The legislation will protect small banks and ... Now the GOP opposes regulation of huge hedge funds and two trillion $ banks ... All 41 Senate Republicans Oppose Financial Reform Bill ...”

New York Times

The Senate Republican leader, Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, criticized the Democrats’ plans to regulate Wall Street as arrogant and partisan, echoing the recent health care fight in which he accused Democrats of carrying out a government takeover.

There’s much more but I’m tired of copying and pasting.

David Cavlan RN (Cont.)

“Michael Moore IS a Dem hack apologist. Hell in 2004 he supported a Dem General who ordered DU weapons in Yugoslavia)”

Sorry, I’m unaware. I’m guessing that Michael Moore was also unaware, or considered this candidate preferable to the alternative, for a number of reasons. I’m interested in more information, be specific please.

“He then supported Kerry and then supported Obama.”

Moore’s a Hack and a Shill isn’t he? If he had more integrity he would have supported Bush/Cheney, McCain/Palin, Nader/Camejo, Barr/Root, Baldwin/Castle, Keyes/Rohrbough, La Riva/Puryear, Moore (Not Michael)/Alexander, Calero/Kennedy (I don’t think so), Jay/Knapp, Stevens/Link, Amondson/Pletton or… McKinney/Clemente…  right? I’m wondering why more people didn’t support some of these other tickets. Were they shills and Hacks?

“He still to this day carries water for Obama and the Democratic Party. Your folks denial of this is breathtaking, quite frankly.”

Nader’s ex-running mate Winona LaDuke said she was going to vote for John Kerry in 2004, did she go all Hackey and Shilley? That’s not breathtaking; it only causes a breathy snicker, quite frankly.

Oh and big old HUGE thank you to Truth Dig for allowing this conversation. It is never allowed on any corporate media outlet or most “progressive” blogs.
Truth Dig has shown itself to have good old fashioned integrity and courage. Where the ideals of debates and free exchange of idead without censorship
is “allowed.”

Your “Thank you” to Truthdig shows your heart is in the right place, my heart was pre-occupied yesterday, so, a big old Huge happy belated Thanksgiving, truthdig!

“You Dem apologists are the ones who keep on returning to 2000 election. You even STILL complain about “what might have been if Nader had not decided to run.”

I apologize, but the consequences of 2000-2008 keep coming into my mind. My mind would rest a lot easier, if I could only forget about the consequences of 2000, and what transpired from 2000 to 2008.

“Try watching the movie American Blackout with Cynthia McKinney and THEN talk of 2000. Then 2004, 2006, 2008 and now 2010.”

I don’t want to talk about it. Like I said, I’m trying to forget 2000 thru 2008, 2008 thru 2010 would be a little less traumatic, and easier to talk about if it weren’t for all the irresponsible, counter productive, irrational, loonies, who are bound and determined to effectively make things a lot worse, instead of a little better.

Lyndon Johnson brought us Civil Rights Legislation, the War on Poverty, and the War on Vietnam. Barry Goldwater would have brought us the War on Vietnam and nuclear detonations. (Straight shooting gay guys was only an afterthought.)

Ask.com

“In one television interview Goldwalter explained that he would be willing to use nuclear weapons against communist forces in Vietnam.”

I repeat, people who prefer Democrats to Republicans are not despicable hacks and shills, they are people who prefer Democrats to Republicans. Asserting hackery and shillery, is goofery..

@Marisacat
“He simply caves to the Democrats with little toss off caveats.  Litte face saving games… “
False. The facts are that Michael has criticized both the current and prior Democrat administrations. Inform yourself. Michael has a specific ideology and measures Democrat performance against it, and noted how they have failed to measure up several times.

Joseph A Mungai

Actually, it goes much deeper than that. You see, I was one of the Official Green
Party Observers in Ohio 2004 Re-Count.

If you read John Conyers book “What Went Wrong In Ohio” or watch the
documentary American Blackout, you will start to understand just how badly
John Kerry abandoned the very principles of democracy and election integrity
itself, when he “threw in the towel.” If it were not for the Green/Libertarian
Party challenges, what happened in Ohio may have remained even more hidden
than what it is now. I even wrote a live Indy Media account of what happened
when I was there. For the record, there was no Ralph Nader to blame as Nader
had been kept off the ballot in Ohio that year. The election in Ohio and
elsewhere were IMHO direct violations of the 1965 Voters Rights Act.

For that alone I will never forgive John Kerry and the Democrats.

Michael Moore supported John Kerry. Michael Moore has never done a
documentary on how the Republicans stole the elections then and of course
nothing on Democrats naked complicity of silence in allowing it to happen.

As for Eric Johnson and all the other Democrat Party hacks and apologists, well
all I can say is this. When presented with facts, all they can respond with is
smears and attacks. Because they have no facts to back them up.

NONE WHAT SO EVER.

Sure, we are small now. After all, you Dems have corporate media, corporate
money and the golden microphones, lots of 501 c3’s that you bribe, laws to
back you up, the ability to suppress the legitimate voices of dissent etc etc. You
probably even have paid hacks to travel the blogs , giving the “party line” and
“memo points of the day.” Most “progressive” blogs will not even allow this
discussion to take place. However, they do here.

So did the Soviet Union have all of this and more and that empire fell too.

People may feel afraid for now and that keeps them in line.

That will not last forever.

God speed the day that the people of this country realize that George Carlin is
right and get pissed off enough about it to do something about it.

God Speed the Day.

I appreciate Michael Moore’s work and his sincerity, but agree with much of what Michael Cavlan has to say about him. People seem to have a hard time on this site (and everywhere else in the world) accepting complexity. Michael Moore, like many other comfortably off folks, refuses to disown the Democratic Party and the corporatism they now stand for. I can like his movies and at the same time not look to him for political leadership.

Yes, I do think it would make a difference if people such as Moore would leave the Democrats and put some of their money and energy toward creating a real alternative. But they’re not going to do that; as I said, they are COMFORTABLY OFF. Political change will come from people who are NOT comfortably off, and apparently there are still too few Americans suffering enough to want something other than Republican vicious corporatism or Democratic spineless corporatism.

I am sorry to see Amy Goodman waste her time defending Michael Moore or wasting time going to bat for him.  In any way, over anything.

He simply caves to the Democrats with little toss off caveats.  Litte face saving games…

What a shame.

After the bullscheisse from Marcus and Robinson on TSA, I really must learn my lesson and not bother with TruthDig.

Moore concedes, “Their smear campaign was effective and did create the dent they were hoping for—single payer and the public option never even made it into the real discussion on the floor of Congress.”

the above quote is one of many reasons i concluded   Moore is a democratic   party operative. Lets face it, Obama never really had any intentions of pushing   single payer. and neither did those who eventually sold out like John Conyers,Anthony Weiner, Dennis Kucinich, etc. it was nothing but theater and the outcome was predetermined.

they’re all bought and paid for: dems, reps,  Michael, even Michelle O. she was a 120k health care executive. when state senator O became U.S. senator, a 300k VP position was created. and quess who was selected?  michelle took a leave of absence during Obama’s candidacy for president. that VP slot was abolished when Obama won the election.

to expect real   health care change from someone with these kind of connections to the health care industry is fantasy.

Ummm

let me be more specific here.

Ralph Nader was right. Attacked and smeared by Democrats.

Cindy Sheehan was right. Was loved by Democrats, right until she started pointing out Democrats complicity. Now hated and smeared, then ignored.

Cynthia McKinney was right about Democrats. Ignored and then smeared by Democrats (the famous phone throwing incident)

Chris Hedges has been right. Ignored by Democrats.

Chris Wright was right about Democrats. Ignored.

Glen Ford of Black Agenda Report was right about Democrats. Ignored.

This is and never has been about Nader the man. It has always been about the message of the man.

None of the above ever get on MSNBC “progressives” (owned by GE, waepons manufacturers) or indeed CNN (Corporate News Network) anymore or at all for some.

Michael Moore, the Nation magazine political hacks (all of which are Dem apologists) hey no problem.

Michael Moore IS a Dem hack apologist. Hell in 2004 he supported a Dem General who ordered DU weapons in Yugoslavia)

He then supported Kerry and then supported Obama.

He still to this day carries water for Obama and the Democratic Party. Your folks denial of this is breathtaking, quite frankly.

Oh and big old HUGE thank you to Truth Dig for allowing this conversation. It is never allowed on any corporate media outlet or most “progressive” blogs.

Truth Dig has shown itself to have good old fashioned integrity and courage. Where the ideals of debates and free exchange of idead without censorship
is “allowed.”

You Dem apologists are the ones who keep on returning to 2000 election. You even STILL complain about “what might have been if Nader had not decided to run.”

Try watching the movie American Blackout with Cynthia McKinney and THEN talk of 2000. Then 2004, 2006, 2008 and now 2010.

I admire Ralph Nader, he filled a valuable niche, so it pains me to have to say that Ralph has always been a little off-kilter. During the 60’s and 70’s, when most activists from the left were focusing on the war in Vietnam, Ralph was a Consumer Advocate.

Naderites have a grudge against Michael Moore, because Moore publicly pleaded with Nader to withdraw from the 2000 presidential campaign, with Florida in mind. How different the world might be today, if Nader had followed Moore’s advice, can only be conjecture but it’s safe to say that the world would be different today.

I’ll suggest that Moore’s film “Sicko” was a very important vehicle to bring Health Care Provider abuses to public attention, but that’s not good enough for Naderites, they accuse him of being a shill. In my opinion, these Naderites are a little off-kilter.

(I once checked a Corvair out from a dealership, took it out on some country roads and did some high speed cornering, it was subject to “over-steer.” The Corvair was General Motors’ answer to more economical, less gas consuming, foreign imports, but it was unsafe, just like the Volkswagon Beetle was unsafe.) 

Nader has spent his life tilting at windmills but, in my opinion, his heart and mind are in the right place, for the most part.

JDMysticDJ:

What’s WRONG with you??? You keep getting more and more rational and logical every day.

So, as Jack Benny would say:

“Now cut that out!”

Michael Moore is not the mouthpiece of the Democratic party or Obama. He has criticized both publicly - He wrote a letter to Obama chastising him for the war. Nor is he thrilled with the so-called Health reform.

DJMystic

It is easy to put forward ad hominem attacks, rather than answer my points
politically.

Has Michael Moore been shilling for the Democrats? Yes. If not show where he
has not.

Has Michael Moore made documentaries that expose the Dems complicity in
taking Single Payer (or Impeachment) “off the table?” No. Prove me wrong.

Did Dennis Kucinich expalin, in detail why the Obama Corpoate Care Bill was
bad, right before he took his “airplane ride” and then voted for it? Yes. Prove me
wrong. Including how the Kucinich Ammendment failed because of (drumroll
please) DEMOCRAT LEADERS. Prove me wrong.

I strongly suspect that the real problem you have with me is that all of the
above ARE correct, that the Democratic Party are complicit in, well name the
issue. It is my stating these now undeniable facts that is the real problem here.

Like I said, Ralph Nader was right..  He tried to warn us. He tried to call us to
action. He was attacked by Democrats.. Who now complain about the corporate
takeover of everything..

The very thing that Nader ran on..

“You [Michael Cavlan RN] are an irrational loony who is unable to identify very real dichotomies, and who advocates taking a counter productive, divisive, road to oblivion that will only serve the interests of actual tyrants, and eliminate any possibility of real progress.”

The above is my template. I’ll be posting it on a regular basis inserting the appropriate names. However, It does appear that Michael Cavlan RN’s heart is in the right place (Did I mention that Michael Cavlan RN is a registered nurse?)

Damn! All this nonsense is driving me nuts. People are accusing Michael Moore and Amy Goodman of being treacherous traitors? How about Potter; is he a shill too? I’m starting to believe there are devious paid agents provocateur who are intentionally spreading dissension on the Webb, hoping to divide in order to conquer. Discrediting the Democrats will leave the flanks unprotected, and a massacre will ensue…  Wow! I’m really reaching for analogy.

(Steady boy! A little common sense and rational thought is clearly necessary, along with therapy to silence these schizophrenic voices.)

The voices just told me the Jews took down the twin towers, that Amy Goodman is an obfuscating co-conspirator, and that Michael Moore is an Eichmann clone, what’s next? I’m waiting in trepidation to hear what the voices will tell me next.

Corporate Capilalism is a Criminal Enterprise!!

Tap into the side-ad for “Medishare”
Health care insurance for Christians only, anyone?

Who decided what ads go up on TD?  Or is it the money?  Holy cow!

The sickness is deep-rooted to the point of nausea. The same canard about socialism and cost to the taxpayer - seems to be working to obstruct reform of any kind, including private sector financial brokering. I’m so sick of these self-centered rationalizations in defense of corporate greed and right wing taxpayer selfishness. Those who refuse to subsidize a single payer system through taxation, yet want to enable the gouging Health Insurance companies to overcharge and not cover, should opt out of living in a civilized society all together.
If they think the providing of non-profit essential services to the citizenry, is a violation of their freedom , they should buy their own country and move there. Then maybe we can improve the general financial welfare and individual well-being of the nation.

Well Folks

I have been a decades long activist for Single Payer. Not to mention a
Registered Nurse.

Screw Michael Moore. He is nothing but a Democratic Party shill. Or does he
mention the Dims naked complicity in killing Single Payer? Or where Dennis
Kucinich spoke the TRUTH about the Obama plan, explaining in detail why it
was worse than no bill.

Right before he took his airplane ride on Airforce One, “taking notes” and then
voting for the Bill he had said was worse than nothing the day before?

No, he does not.

He shills for the Democrats. Or has he done a documentary on the Dems
complicity on Banker Bailouts, Wars, Torture, Loss of Rights etc etc etc?

No he has not and he will not either.

RALPH NADER WAS RIGHT. He tried to warn us. He called us to action.

Michael Moore will never have the balls to admit it.

Working class hero, my ass.

In the USA medicine has not been a career for a long time, but rather a business.  The insurance industry, exempt from anti-trust laws through the McCurran-Ferguson Act has evolved into an economic, social, and political powerhouse and this filters down to hospitals and doctors.  It’s going to take a long time to change that and whether a public option is the answer I don’t know because Medicare is rife with abuses both legal and illegal.  A patient with Medicare in the final stages of life is a cash cow to hospital and surgeons.  When my mother-in-law, age 93, was terminally ill and hospitalized she had more doctors coming to see her when it was realized she had full supplemental insurance in addition to Medicare——and she loved the attention——especially when a surgeon discovered she had a hairline fracture of the hip and recommended surgery right away before she died.  Unfortunately, she was of sound mind and agreed readily to the surgery cause she loved doctors and the attention she was getting.  She spend weeks in rehab, then she’d return to the hospital with an infection of sorts for the required time for Medicare to kick in and then repeat the process.  When we’d see the statements from Empire we’d just shake our head——when she finally died the total cost for everything was in 6 figures and all covered by either Medicare or the AARP supplemental insurance.  Of the few dollars that wasn’t covered we’d see on the statement, but never got a bill from any doctors——I guess they’d be embarrassed to ask for the money!

Michael Moore has become a popular hate-figure for no good reason that I can tell.

Agreed.
That is very “sick.”
Medical industry, profit-sickness.

Even worse, when considering the statistic that 23%
of deaths are caused by medical error. 

This does not include the fraudulent death-assistance
provided by the oncology “industry.”  Whose treatment
neither lengthens life, nor improves quality of life,
per Dr. Ralph Moss. 

A world-famous, whistle-blower physician
wrote four years ago, that Americans can spend up to
$125,000 to die of cancer.  That was four years ago.

Sad, that Dr. Julie G. didnt blow a whistle,
when she could have founded a
medical-whistle-blowing industry. . .