Azcat85 Seems to be a tad of incompleteness in your statement, ( can anyone verify it anyway?) once again it is in the denial,... a denial of what is and what is not.  So why not raise taxes on the top 1 percent, if their income is not really income at all? The Azcat85 argument seems to be stating they will not pay taxes anyway,... so why raise income taxes?

I suspect you may be wrong in your assessment, though obfuscation seems the planned objective?

By ardee, July 18 at 2:29 pm to my Azcat85, July 17 at 2:42 pm.

The fallacy in the argument about the 1% that don’t pay their fare share is that most of their monetary gains are not in earned income.  Hence they don’t pay income tax.  Bill Gate’s for example, does not get a salary.  His income is from investments not income.  Income tax taxes income, which over 51% of Americans DON’T pay.  No skin in the game, yet, they can vote for those other folks to pay taxes.  That is class warfare.  The amount of tax that Obama wants to extract from the wealthy would only amount to $400B, a far cry from what is needed to stop his multi-trillion dollar spending binge.

As far as blaming the victim, if the shoe fits wear it.  When you spend like there is no tomorrow on crap and don’t save, then you are culpable in your own condition.

As someone we meets the max on SS every November, I have no problem with removing the cap, but, than again, it is not a panacea and will not do a thing to keep SS solvent without raising the age of qualification.  Since the new generation does not believe in procreation for societal needs that is the outcome.

It’s the money stupid. Banksters and very very likely many congresspeople (House and Senate, Democrats and Republicans) are going to make an indecent amount of money off this fake crises of the budget ceiling. How can we find out who makes the most money? That will tell us who caused this debacle.

Azcat85, July 17 at 2:42 pm

Paying the bill is one of the key problems, one you seemingly ignore or fail to understand. There are solutions to SS funding on the table that seem more efficient and more humane than raising the age of eligibility.

Raising the cap on payments from its current level so that the folks making the big bux pay all the way to their income limits, fair is fair after all as most folks today do not reach the 100,000+ thousand dollar cap anyway.

You are yet another who places the blame on the victim while ignoring the real dilemma, that the wealthiest do not pay their fair share and the large corporations pay little to no share at all. Wage earnmers are getting screwed and you blame us for the problems created by the greed and venality of the 1% who control our overpriced elections and thus our laws and directions.

Social Security is and always has been an insurance policy. As such it solvency is
predicated on life actuaries coupled with estimates of contributions to ensure a
balance of benefits.  The ratio of payers to collectors has become unbalanced to
the point of becoming insolvent within the next qtr century.  The proposals on
the table are to raise the age of full eligibility to 70 based on the increased
longevity from the original estimate of 68 for males to 78 for males.  This is not
a reduction in benefits.  Social Security was NEVER intended to be a living wage
but a supplement.  Families in the 40s lived together, old members with
younger members.  Not so today.  This is the real difference in the senior
dilemma.  Maybe the younger generations and there parents need to look
intelligently at the choices and combine living arrangements back to the family
unit.  The families will benefit.

The failure of the masses to save for the future and consume mass quantities of
everything placed in front of them is the true failure of the middle class. 
Families that claim they can’t afford medical care are driving around in brand
new vehicles, have multiple big screen TVs, every game console and new phone
placed on the market.  In reality, when compared to the world stage, very few
Americans are in poverty.  We need to stop the whining and do a little self
reflection and buck up.  There never was a free ride and the time has come to
pay the bill and it is going to hurt.

@peterjkraus
“Truthdig, this is getting worse by the day.
The same five posters jacking each other “
Wow what a sweeping judgment. I agree that there are some posters who offer the same invalid argument over and over again…but there are many many more posters than that. In your flawless judgment of five people there only two credible actions
1. Stop posting here.
2. Address the lack of originality of these ideas.
It’s easier of course to make broad self-righteous unsupported criticisms. That approach therefore has no credibility. Not an original one, I might add.

Most of the people ranting against “entitlements”
have no idea what they are doing—but their supporters and paymasters know very well. That’s the sick truth.

“Entitlements” have a long and bloody history getting to where they are today, and if we lose them, a return to the Dark Ages is inevitable.

Take the root “title”.  For centuries the only people who had a title were chiefs, priests and an occasional poet or seer.  Then along came kings, magistrates, emperors, popes, and their ranks of subsidiaries, down to scholars and merchants—based on systems of power and ownership. Men, women and kids were “thems” and “its” with no entitlement to anything. The stronger beat up the weaker, and time passed.

Then a revolution happened.  Somebody had the idea that “all men are created equal” and have “inalienable rights.”  Others promoted that idea and it became the centerpiece for modern Constitutions, including our own. Only recently those “inalienable” rights were extended to women in some places, and the U.N. was brave enough to enshrine something called “the rights of the child” for the first time in human history.

It’s that word “inalienable” that sticks in the throats of reactionaries.  It means you can’t legally take those rights away.  You can’t turn “citizens” back into “aliens”. You can’t turn citizens back into subjects—or objects. If you do, you risk trying to set back the clock of human progress—which, contrary to Hedges, is not entirely a myth.

Periodically some tyrant, or tyrants, arise and try to reverse history.  At that time, blogging will come to a grinding halt and we will be forced to decide what to do next.  What we do and how we do it will make all the difference.

Ardee—-Have you solved any problems while I’ve been gone?

Why Christian, your leaving had solved the problem. If only the judge had determines a longer sentence necessary, but alas.

Thank you, Robert Scheer, for putting such a strong emphasis on Medicaid.  I’ve been signing the various letters sent out from Congresspersons asking us to sign their letters and petitions to Obama not to cut Social Security and Medicare.  I sign, then I call the offices of those who left out Medicaid. 

This is very dangerous for those people who are the most vulnerable. By not including Medicaid, a green light is given to Obama et.al. to go ahead and cut Medicaid.  It is as if we only care about Social Security and Medicare, as if we only care about the slightly more advantaged. 

Senator Bernie Sanders is one of the few who has included Medicaid in his call not to cut Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.  Thank you, Bernie.
And thank you, Robert Scheer, for recognizing that Medicaid funding is important and just.

peterjkraus stated:

“Truthdig, this is getting worse by the day.
The same five posters jacking each other
off, taking up all the space so it becomes
almost impossible to find a truly original,
positive thought.”

“Sometimes, censorship is a very good and
necessary thing.”

Maybe you could qualify your statement as to who the five posters jacking each other off are?  Please define a truly original thought and finally explain to me why censorship sometimes is a very good thing in a public forum?

I am not disagreeing or agreeing, I find the comments cryptic because I searched the thread for a post by you which may have been example of positive and original thought and came up empty, did you post something which we all missed,... I did not go back to the first page?

Truthdig, this is getting worse by the day.
The same five posters jacking each other
off, taking up all the space so it becomes
almost impossible to find a truly original,
positive thought.

Sometimes, censorship is a very good and
necessary thing.

@Lafayette
“All this bitching is pathetically useless catharsis. Finally, the job comes down to people like you and me who have to get off their fat asses and ... Do Something! Besides bitching-in-a-blog.”
That is a pathetically useless assumptiom about what people are doing and not doing as though that has any bearing in a discussion. (ad hominem)
Characterizing all critical analysis as bitching is self-condemning.
Communication is doing something -
Sharing ideas is doing something -
Debating is doing something -
The French Revolution would not have happened without written and spoken words - political journalist like Marat
To diminish the importance of ideas as catalysts for change is probably to be in denial about root causes - which isn’t just mass passivity - There are protagonists who spread dis-information about the system and have controls over the levers of power - a token political protest can be the most successful form of denial -
Often totalitarian governments allow such token outlets - pacifiers against real revolution.

LaFayette—-
You are Christian bigot, c96. (Bigot = a person who is prejudiced in their views and intolerant of the opinions of others.)

I confess to having prejudiced views but am not
intolerant of the opinions of others.  Therefore,
that elimates me from “bigot” status.  The people
who burnt “infidels” were not Christians even though
they called themselves Christian.  It’s called “taking God’s name in vain,” to use God to
one’s advantage.  Capitol Hill is full of people
who have taken God’s name in vain. I don’t know
why I am wasting my time with this.  I would have
assumed that someone with your supposed intellect
would have know this information.  Perhaps, you are
rather ignorant about true Christians.  Jesus laid
down a set of rules for people to follow who want
to be a Christian.  Burning someone at the stake is
not one of them.

Ardee—-Have you solved any problems while I’ve been
gone?

ADDED VALUE

RL: Speech is an action - so is thought - of which there is precious little - BTW what’s your excuse for blogging about blogging on this blog?

I am flattered that you ask. I try to add value. That means an exchange of opinion based upon the facts. The facts are out there ... they simply need be found.

But it gets very difficult to separate the chaff from the wheat. There are two types of comment that set off the alarms:
* Woe is me, we are all victims of the _ _ _ _ _.  (Fill in the blanks, “banksters”, “plutocrats”, the “Treasury”, the “M-I-C”, the “Republicans”, the “Democrats”, “all of ‘em”  ... etc., etc., etc., ad nauseam.
* It’s really all Obama"s fault. (When there is no particular guilty party at which to point the finger of blame. 

All this bitching is pathetically useless catharsis. Finally, the job comes down to people like you and me who have to get off their fat asses and ... Do Something! Besides bitching-in-a-blog.

FOR INSTANCE

There have been a few posts about the New Progressive Alliance. Check them out, they could be forming a political platform of interest.

MY POINT

The question is, What Something? And I feel, imho,  I have been more cogent and precise about that “something” than most. (And where possible I reference support information as a basis for the proposition.)

Honest Injun, I am not here to win debates. I am here to further the debate. The latter is a lot more interesting. But in a country so fixated on “winners” and “losers” I can understand the confusion that might arise.

Another classic case -or is it bullshit - from the regulars that keep preaching the lesser of two evils argument ,when in essence their Head Proselytizer keeps on ‘selling the farm’.My
goodness ! and the big ball of shit always rolls downhill crushing the unknowing ,yet the one’s that Ass-pier still believe that the ‘teflon’ will protect them ,some try to use the ‘wind’ to deflect the rolling mass while the other thinks that it can be outrun with a bike ;how very Mystical.The Old Savage is not fooled by a fools errand nor by the delivery boyz that occasionally ‘glimpse the hollow halls of power that are so beautifully ugly and opaque that even unseeing eyes would avoid them.President Barack ‘BOX’ Obama sends the cannon fodder abroad in this new-fangled bid to Westernize the World ,when in fact this ‘civilization disease’ or western civ. is actually a detriment to the members of this Planet;much is lost
every time for such a pseudo gain.But nevertheless ‘science’ will of course save us from ourselves that’s why nothing is warming ,nuclear power is clean ,coal is cheap ,Wal-mart (makes you live better) carbon trading is a brilliant way of spreading pollution and making money at the same time ,the new Green Revolution will solve the Worlds food problem -along with Bill Gates and Monsanto- petro chemicals are apparently good for the environment and finally being Substantially Equivalent’ is the new normal ,for all you ASS-Piring
wannabe horsemen.Although a Donkey is your steed at the moment and don’t forget to ride it backwards as a true Ass ,the Borg will understand .Social Security will be wrecked ,because well the serfs have to pay their debts and free money belongs to the ‘trickle class’.

HOKA

The Republican attack on the New Deal has been relentlessly ongoing since its inception.  Calling them entitlements seems to have a negative ring to it.  Since most of us have paid into Social Security and Medicare all our working adult lives, how does that make it like welfare?  The twisting of words is not new to politics. Words like socialism and integrity have been twisted to be different from their original meaning.

So when we see Republicans using the word entitlements, in their minds they are talking about Social Security and Medicare. Now when I talk about entitlements, I am talking about wealthy paying some of the lowest taxes in the world, Corporations not paying any taxes at all or big oil or big anything receiving subsidiary’s (wealthy welfare) So entitlement means to me corporate welfare, hell the Republicans tell us this everyday when they say no cuts on subsidiary and no raising of taxes for the wealthy. 

Now wouldn’t cuts in Social Security or Medicare be in the same vane as raising taxes according to the moronic arguments sponsored by the Republicans? The only difference being, many of us paid into Social Security, Medicare and paid our taxes to pay for Oil subsidies.

Trickle this Republicans!

The “self”-appointed tag-team (who so richly deserve to remain
pseudonymous) obviously CONtinue to be thoroughly CONvinced that many
participants here are incapable of sound judgement when it comes to taking-
or-leaving the observations of those among us not bought-into their own
orthodoxies-of-choice.  So they compulsively smear their virtual feces around,
like silly kids intending to shock and to titillate, hoping to make ‘others’ into
accomplices in their discursive delinquency….while at the same time trying
vainly to divert precious attention from the utter vacuousness of their own
empty rhetoric.

We might wonder what it is, in comments they profess endlessly to find worse
than merely worthless, that regularly reduces them to such knee-jerk virtual
‘apoplexy.’  Could it be something as “self”-centered as simply being scared
witless….afraid they’ll be ‘found-out’?

Well, as the old saying goes:  If you wish in one hand….......

HokaHey!

ardee, July 15 at 2:47 am Link to this comment

Buit, ITW Its really such spiritual poopie talk after all!
**************

Ah, but NOBODY could talk shit like George Carlin. HE was truly spiritual on the subject:
“‘Shoot’? You can’t fool me: ‘Shoot’ is ‘Shit’ with two Os!”
Or the narc who doesn’t know that “shit” is “Shit!.....”...
“Want some papers with that shit, man?”
“Uh, yeah. Better give me 2 or 3 rolls.”

@Lafayette
“People who just complain without adding one iota of cogent reasoning to the subject matter are simply looking for a cathartic outlet for their angst.

“

Speech is an action - so is thought - of which there is precious little -
BTW what’s your excuse for blogging about blogging on this blog?

c96: Anderson completely neglected to discuss Walid’‘s knowledge of the Koran and what it has to say about infidels, especially Jews and Christians.

You are Christian bigot, c96. (Bigot = a person who is prejudiced in their views and intolerant of the opinions of others.)

Have you forgot the Inquisition that burnt “infidels” at the stake? For every offense caused to Christians, I can find the same in reverse.

Your attitude is bottomless pit of spite and hate. For all your supposed Christianity, it is obvious that you have already forgot this biblical text “Thou Shalt Love Thy Neighbor as Thyself” Leviticus 19:18

So he resorts to a grade school insult…but at least at THAT level he’s finally capable of being coherent…and all he can talk is poopie talk.

Buit, ITW Its really such spiritual poopie talk after all!

christian96, July 14 at 9:10 pm

I trust noone will follow the suggestion in this post that we do not participate in the election process. Even after noting how such inaction plays directly into the hands of the right wing assault on our democracy this poster advocates for such.

Ahh your absence was sooo appreciated!

PUNCHING BALL

c96: The multinational wealthy who pay no tax will continue to do so because our leaders in Washington are ignorant and lack backbone.

And as I never tire of saying, “Yes, you are right. So get your duff out from behind a computer and do something about the sad condition of our leadership. Militate to reform the political class in LaLaLand on the Potomac!”

Who put them there? We, the sheeple - that’s who. Who can get them out? We, the sheeple - that’s who.

It is far more effective to join efforts to un-elect the Rabid Right and Dem BlueDogs than bitching-in-a-blog. People who just complain without adding one iota of cogent reasoning to the subject matter are simply looking for a cathartic outlet for their angst.

Set up a punching ball in your living room and have at it ...

Do you think a country that spread “napalm” like
manure in Vietnam and did not hesitate to destroy
women, children, and senior citizens in Iraq and
Afghanistan is going to show compassion to it’s
poorest citizens at home?  ABSOLUTELY NOT!  The
multinational wealthy who pay no tax will continue
to do so because our leaders in Washington are
ignorant and lack backbone.  Before last election
Pres. Obama swore if elected he would remove income
tax on Social Security for individuals earning less
than $50,000 a year.  Did he follow-up on his pre-election promise? ABSOLUTELY NOT! You don’t even hear
him mention it.  He won’t get my vote this election.
That leaves me a dilemma.  Who do I vote for?  A
Republican?  God forbid!  My father would roll over
in his grave.  I’ll just follow the rest of the sheep and not vote this time even though I realize
that is exactly what the wealthy ruling class wants
to happen.  They don’t want people to vote.  That
enables them to dominate Washington and continue to swim in money, their GOD!

Furthermore, the economic downturn was not a public sector failure but a private sector Wall Street debacle of almost global proportions. For the public sector to bail out the corrupt out of control finance corporations (the darlings of the GOP) and then have the Right level a criticism that the economy is weak because of government spending in general, and so-called entitlements in particular, takes an especially pernicious twist of logic fueled by downright cynical dishonesty.
Piggy power!!

In West Virginia we use to have a phrase to define
Anderson Cooper’s journalistic skills. “PISS POOR!”
Last night in his coverage of Walid Shoebat, Anderson
completely neglected to discuss Walid’‘s knowledge
of the Koran and what it has to say about infidels,
especially Jews and Christians.  I’ll watch part two of the coverage tonight on CNN at 10 pm and see if
Anderson can reach real deep and demonstrate just a
little ability to be a journalist.  I’m not
optimistic!

ITW: Mother Earth doesn’t cry ,She has a way of blowin the wind and raising the water and belching forth fire at times ;somewhat like your ‘Poopie’ but when she farts She doesn’t shit herself.Hell Its already happened to me !So if getting along amounts to childish terminology let youself loose ;but poopie
Hahahahaha !You know that TAO makes sense ,don’t fool yourself .

cheers

frecklefever, July 14 at 10:30 am Link to this comment

HokaHey!
*******

Mean Ol’ ITW just doesn’t see the brilliantness of Tao Walker and his wisdomness of Mother Earth, whom he alone has the spiritual ears to hear her cries.

So he resorts to a grade school insult…but at least at THAT level he’s finally capable of being coherent…and all he can talk is poopie talk.

Most of you are too young to remember the expression of the 60’s “If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.”
What I have read prior to this post only exhibits the polorization of this nation and what may very well spell its doom.
WE ALL HAVE TO TIGHEN OUR BELTS. REPUBLICANS, DEMOCRATS, INDEPENDENTS, TEA PARTY !!!!!!!!!!!
We need to raise taxes on the wealthy(I am in this group) and cut the “crap” that does not pass the sniff test in entitlements.
Where has common sense gone? The federal government should be bound by the same common sense that we are required to use running our personal finances. If you can’t afford it don’t buy it!!!!!!!!

MAYBE TOO MUCH WIND HAS BEEN INHERITED…

Any “credit” given by the likes of “Inherit The Wind” certainly qualifies as being
praised with faint damns.  Or would that be the other way ‘round?

No matter….it is his very own inCONtinent resort to the “childish and immature,”
though, that CONtinues to amaze and astound.

HokaHey!

The rallying cry of ‘entitlement’ to relieve tax burderns for those who don’t need entitlements like social security is a strategy that has been tried by the GOP as nauseam. The agenda of enriching the rich and milking the middle class poor is believable only to the greedy pigs who don’t want government to serve the needs of the people.
Furthermore Social Security is indeed an entitlement whose benefits like all insurance are commensurate with the premiums paid - so it better pay out.

TAO Walker, July 13 at 7:27 pm Link to this comment

HokaHey!
***********

I gotta give you credit TW. You finally posted something that wasn’t mystical gibberish. ‘Course it’s childish and immature, but Hey! We can’t have everything…

Hokem-Today!

It still comes down to the result a weak administration doubly hamstrung by an unprincipled group of unctious, bigotted, and selfish members of the Republican party intending to push such an unfair programme through, obviously aware that it will never affect them or their associates.
The disclosure of their behaviour should motivate the American electorate to go out and deselect thse people, once and for all, at the next elections.
Failure to do so would suggest that they enjoy being treated like dirt by these nearly people.

CENTRISM as defined by Lafayette

The frustration displayed on this thread is indicative of what one might call “hope”.

Let’s hope that the outrage manifests itself in the elections next year sufficiently to throw a Mighty Whammy to the Republican Party in both houses of Congress. Throw da bums out!

You mean like the election that saw a Democratic majority in both Houses and a Democratic President in the White House? That one resulted in a continuance of the policies of GW Bush did it not?

We need both the Right and the Left represented in Congress, but neither the Rabid Right nor the Looney Left whose extremism is conducive to failure if followed in either of those two political directions.

Well, do we allow you to decide the parameters of Rabid and Looney? Will you sit and knit like Madame DeFarge as you do so?

We have seen over recent years, particularly in Europe, the demise of Communism and the rise of Centrist progresive principles. We can only hope now that the same phenomenon is happening in the US as regards Right-wing politics - its insane bent for individualism and thus the rotting of America’s moral fiber.

I think you exaggerate, but add, yet again, that all the so-called “communist regimes” in this world are but perversions of that system of governance as envisioned by Marx.

The truth, I say, is in the middle of both ... manifested in the principles of of Centrist progressive policies. Simply put: Milk the Capitalist Cash Cow (by means of higher-taxation) the product of which nurtures Social Investments furthering the well-being of all Americans.

After proselytizing for Centrism you speak as one of the"Looney Left”, good for you!

Leefeller

Sad news for the Obama haters out there and especially those trolls, (you know who you are)  Obama has already raised 86 million dollars for his campaign, which is more than all the Republicans combined.

So, do you have at hand the list of contributors who comprise that 86 million? I don’t either but would bet the farm that the money comes from the very corporations you diss , as do I.

Oh and ,with an election promising to require about one billion dollars in the war chest for a presidential candidate alone we will surely see another election decided by corporate money.

This unthinking loyalty to Democrats in general and Obama in particular seems so irrational to me. Based upon the actions of our Democratic Legislators, as both a majority and as a minority, and the President I find no reason to continue to vote for them or their GOP counterparts.

CENTRISM

The frustration displayed on this thread is indicative of what one might call “hope”.

Let’s hope that the outrage manifests itself in the elections next year sufficiently to throw a Mighty Whammy to the Republican Party in both houses of Congress. Throw da bums out!

We need both the Right and the Left represented in Congress, but neither the Rabid Right nor the Looney Left whose extremism is conducive to failure if followed in either of those two political directions.

We have seen over recent years, particularly in Europe, the demise of Communism and the rise of Centrist progresive principles. We can only hope now that the same phenomenon is happening in the US as regards Right-wing politics - its insane bent for individualism and thus the rotting of America’s moral fiber.

The truth, I say, is in the middle of both ... manifested in the principles of of Centrist progressive policies. Simply put: Milk the Capitalist Cash Cow (by means of higher-taxation) the product of which nurtures Social Investments furthering the well-being of all Americans.

Neither the Rabid Right Nor the Looney Left - the truth is somewhere in-between.

WHAT SOCIAL INVESTMENTS?

Just for starters:
* A truly Universal National Health System of both Preventive and Remedial Care that caps explosive health care service costs.
* A tuition subsidy at state schools for all those wanting a postsecondary education (whether vocational, college or university) in order to obtain decent employment.
* Investment in infrastructural programs that enhance national productivity - like Internet fibre-optic systems to the door of each house. Or the development of an efficient means of producing hydrogen from natural gases to power fuel-cells (that will motor our cars). Or high-speed non-polluting rail transport.
* Reduce the National Debt that will also lower interest rates and make just about any product/service less expensive in our credit-driven economy.

There is no empirical truth to the theory that cutting taxes creates jobs. It is only a blind belief left over from the Ronald Reagan trickle down theory, which only empirical fact is that it has not worked, but thats okay, it just takes a lot longer to trickle down than expected, especially when one is always worrying about tax breaks for their private jet.

So why is it unfair for hard working CEOs making huge incomes or corporations like the oil companies making the biggest profits in the history of the world to pay taxes. Why shouldn’t oil companies keep receiving subsidies? After all the oil companies need those subsides to pay lobbyists to get rid of pesky regulations.  You know advertising on television is not cheap either, it costs money to tell people how great you are for the world and everyone.  I think it is nice for tax payers to pay for deregulating for oil drilling helping the nice oil companies.

Sad news for the Obama haters out there and especially those trolls, (you know who you are)  Obama has already raised 86 million dollars for his campaign, which is more than all the Republicans combined. It seems the Republicans are waiting for Karl Rove and other Pacs to fork over some big bucks, maybe we can get a true American person in the What House next time? A flag waving Repulsion like M Bachman and her gay hating husband the perfect married couple of self proclaimed repute and opportunists of the higher order.

So the Republican plan, is to do nothing, the great idea to make Obama look bad?.... Works for me and such a great plan!

Looks like “Inherit The Wind” is having another one of those “shit”-tea days. 
Maybe it’s the peach cobbler.

Then again, maybe he’s just full-of-it.

HokaHey!

Suggestion before the “market” closes:
  Let’s all nominate GRYM for
      “Truthdigger of the Week.” ???

Mr. Scheer, the headline ‘The GOP’s Sick’ would have sufficed.

Sorry.  My comments have nothing to do with this
article. I wanted to place them some place where
intelligent people might have access to them.
Tonight Anderson Coopper is going to interview Walid
Shoebat on CNN at 10 pm EDT.  I know Walid.  We
communicated several months by e-mail. Walid is an
ex-Muslim terrorist who converted to Christianity.
I have two of his books which are titled “Why I Left
Jihad” and “God’s War On Terrorist.””  I like “God’‘s
War On Terrorist” because Walid relates radical
Islam to scriptures in the Bible.  If I am interpreting the commericals correctly related to tonight’s program Anderson Cooper is going to be
critical of Walid.  Again, excuse my comments which
are not related to this article by Mr. Scheer.  I’ll
try to comment later.

The American public will stand in ignorant silence as the RepubliNazis orchestrate the quietly muffled demise of the most helpless people in this country.

Let me be frank about this: It can happen to you, just like it happpened to me. One day you can be at work, earning a living, and the next day you can become the enemy of the American Rich.

The public has been told for decades by RepubliNazi propaganda that those of us receiving the assistance we earned on the job are stealing money from the paychecks of the hard working men and women of this country. I used to be one of them! Now I’m being told my life doesn’t matter anymore, and that the money currently being used to support me (support that I already earned!) is needed more by some greedy rich asshole who’s running out of monogrammed hankies.

Do not let this happen! You can be next, even if you voted for these lying thieves. Once you can no longer pay taxes, you might as well be dead—-and that is their ultimate goal. You think this is a joke? Watch and learn. They cut our medication funding, our housing funding, our food funding, and you still think they’re not a threat to us? Helpless human beings will die from neglect if they get their way, and it could be YOU!

@Irish317 - I’m familiar with Distributism. The principle of distributed economic power is great…the theocratic baggage, not so much.

BTW—I am NOT a neo-conservative, a conservative shill, or some sort of closeted conservative just because I take issue with certain Progressive ideas.

I am a Catholic, dedicated to the living out of the Christian Faith just as Dorothy Day was. In face, for someone to call me a “Dorothy Day Catholic” would be, for me, the highest honor one could pay me.

Just wanted to set that straight.

No more morally obscene than killing the unborn, lying our way into a false war in Iraq, killing unborn Iraqi children by using depleted uranium munitions, bombing civilians, sanctioning perversion and so called “gay marriage.”

You don’t get it, do you?  You have cast off every restraint that the Catholic Church has taught and now expect a godless society, run by sociopaths, post modern existentialists, and Evangelical nutcases, to run like a well oiled and decent machine.

Our country, and the sickness that infests it, including the massive greed of the rich, is a direct contradiction to all that the Christian Faith teaches.  It is based in the false religion of Protestantism, which was the beginning of the overthrow of the Christian Faith.  Yet you Liberals are petrified to consider that the Christian Faith is the way a country should be run.  I guess, however, you do have something of a point in that all you have seen is a faint glimmer of the real faith, and mostly the perversion of it by Evangelicals.  What would a truly Christian country look like?

1.  No large corporations would be allowed.  The Catholic Church has long opposed the oppression of workers by large corporations, and realizes that the principle so subsidiary (things being done locally and in smaller ways) works better.

2.  No lending of money at interest. The Muslims do this in their banking system. Why can’t we? 

3.  Peace making, not war.  The USCCB opposed and declared as “immoral and unjust” the Iraq War.  A defensive force would be maintained, but war would be the LAST RESORT not the first talking point.

4. Moral behavior rewarded, immoral behavior punished. Those who steal from others would be punished, not rewarded.  Those who defile the Sacrament of Marriage by immoral behavior would be punished, and I mean MEN TOO, not just women. A great part of our violence problem in the inner cities can be traced back to boys growing up with out fathers and the rage that causes. 

5.  A return to sound economic principles, including Distributism rather than Capitalism or Socialism.  Distributism is based on agrarian concepts rather than corporatism.  Guilds, small companies which are “employee owned” (everyone gets equal share and equal profit reward) and especially home ownership and farming.  A man who owns his own property which feeds his family is never out of work.  What if, instead of keeping people on welfare forever, we took that same money (or all the money spent on illegal wars) bought people small homesteads and taught them how to work the homestead to feed themselves and their families? The “same old same old” is not working. Why not something different?

6. Stewardship of the world rather than raping and exploiting it for money.  This means that unsafe drilling practices would stop. Those nasty plastic baggies that everyone shops with would be outlawed and replaced by reuseables.  Toys made from wood rather than plastics, so that guilds and craftsmenn flourish again. Simple things that would have a profound impact.

Liberalism is based in a postmodern despizing of God and His ways.  How’s it working out for ya?  You don’t seem to make the connection that when you toss out the basis of moral behavior, then why bother being moral?  You have taught your children for years that there is no God, either by direct statement or by your actions. Well, if this is all you get, then why not strive for power and all the riches you can steal here on earth, and if the poor suffer, so what?

Christianity has always had its problems, but the Brave New World you postmoderns have created in your godless society—- well, that horror is exactly what this artcle is about, isn’t it?

So now….you can ignore me, or insult me, or ban me.  Or you can talk with me.  The choice is yours.  I find it interesting that the very people who claim such tolerance are always the ones who want to ban me from their liberal sites.

I do not understand why posts such as
this keep honking on a theoretical
Social Security/Medicare problem when
solutions are so obvious. For example,
why not simply eliminate the $106,500
cap on SS taxable earned income? Why
should someone making ten million not
pay taxes on the top $9,893,200? And
why should ALL UNEARNED INCOME (income
from profits, rents, interest, etc.) be
TOTALLY EXEMPT?

Simply eliminating these two LOOPHOLES
would solve the ‘problem’ while
providing sufficient additional income
to not only eliminate the most unlikely
shorfall but to fully fund a single-
payer national health care system fully
covering all Americans. Not only would
this free all of us from health care
concern, but would eliminate health
care insurance handicaps for current
and retired employees handicapping many
or most US businesses as well as state
and local governing bodies facing
crippling financial crises.

Solutions to most problems are pretty
easy to come up with. What is difficult
is to find representatives not so
incompetent and/or corrupt and
constituencies so stump-broke as to
show no interest in looking at them.

JUST THE FACTS, MA’AM

GRYM: In fact, the question I pose is directly related to your obvious obsession with wealth.

No, you’ve got that wrong too.

As a Social Democrat, my obsession is with Income Inequality, which is manifested by two evidential analyses, both of which I have provided you once before:
* The competent analyses of Wealth Distribution that is found here. And,
* The Gini Coefficient of Income Unfairness that is accepted by economists world-wide. Note that America has by far the highest index of Income Unfairness of any first-world country.

You may like disputing economic facts that counter your beliefs. I have a tendency to believe them because of their verifiable authenticity. It is thus at that point we separate company.

You either cannot believe the above evidence or you do not want to believe it. As I said before, and clearly for the last time, I am sure it is the latter.

MY POINT

I.e., you are impervious to any evidence or argumentation that might shake your comfortable little world of Right-wing dogma. Which does not make you unique in the least.

Most Republicans are all singing off the same hymn sheet. Blindly.

Tired of the same old, same old Republicans are bad, evil bad. ONLY Republicans are bad, evil bad?

Firedoglake where stories that discuss the bi-partisan betrayals are allowed.

Then want to do more than simply complain about it?

New Progressive Alliance
nwprogs.org

entropy2, July 13 at 11:26 am Link to this comment

ITW - you’re probably right, but if his nonsense can provide a foil to help like-hearted people define some principles and priorities we can agree on, maybe he does serve a purpose.
********

Nah. His goal is to tie a thread up in knots so the issue doesn’t get addressed.  But if you ignore him, and side-step the dog shit on the sidewalk, he’ll try to bait you with all kinds of inflammatory remarks—the less true the better, because you are more inclined to correct him the more flagrant the lie…and that’s how you step in the dog shit.

Excuse me but your use of my comment is nothing more than an Obamabot trying to make his man seem innocent of his obvious turnaround since the election. Boehner never promised to protect SS—O did. Boehner never promised to save Medicare and Medicaid—O did. Boehner is not blaming the Ds for any of his stands because he has not reversed any. To equate the two is lazy at best and delusional at worst.

Just because some point out your man O is a shill does not mean they are “trolls”.

What is this troll caucus day. 

‘What is morally obscene is Boener even considering cuts to SS , Medicare and Medicaid! He can blame the Democrats all he wants but to even think about these tactics shows how morally bankrupt he truly is. No one can make a man of principle go against his beliefs to such an extent unless these principles are not real. Remember the tobacco days?’

‘The time for blaming the evil Democrats is long past and now Boener is showing his true colors—he is nothing but a corporate shill doing the work of his backers.’

Now its right!

Clearly ITW has an unreasonable fear of those unlike himself.  Efforts to denigrate those unlike himself rarely go untried.

entropy2, - “if you’re implying that I think there’s some cabal of plutocrats…..”

-

I implied nothing.  You wrote of a Plutocracy and I asked about your views. 

Talk of a Plutocracy is commonly spoken of in terms of a group of the wealthy class ruling the masses. 

So you see no concerted effort amongst the wealthy to rule over the more fortunate middle and lower socioeconomic spectrum?  Is that correct?

What is morally obscene is Obama even considering cuts to SS , Medicare and Medicaid! He can blame the Rs all he wants but to even think about these tactics shows how morally bankrupt he truly is. No one can make a man of principle go against his beliefs to such an extent unless these principles are not real.

The time for blaming the evil Rs is long past and now O is showing his true colors—he is nothing but a corporate shill doing the work of his backers.

This is my first post on truthdig and I am not a prolific poster but do every now and again. I heard a man on CSPAN today say that he got all the money back that he put into social security back in 7 years. I think a quick review will prove that to be incorrect.
First social security administration sets the level of payments based upon their own criteria so you do not control your monthly amount. He also failed to consider the interest made over all those years. And the fact that his employer contributed an equal amount to him.

There was a time in the 80’s where you could 10% straight from your bank. I am 57 years old and estimate conservatively a quarter of the people I grew up with are deceased most without dependents so there was never an expenditure on their behalf from the fund. And the ones who have died later in life and left dependents the payments stop early into adulthood.
There is an old story about saving that a person could put in a small amount like a dollar a day and have a million dollars at 65.
Then a lot of people even if they get to collect on social security die by age 70.
I am very leery of this social security fix and think it is mostly to spend the extre money that is in the fund.

ITW - you’re probably right, but if his nonsense can provide a foil to help like-hearted people define some principles and priorities we can agree on, maybe he does serve a purpose.

As long as money makes money, the situation perpetuates itself and the more money you have, the more money you can make by investing it and collecting “interest” on the money you invest.

By far the large majority never “earn” enough extra money to invest; they have to spend it all on essentials. Many are “under-employed” and some are “under-paid” and millions are “under-educated”—all of which conditions deny them the opportunity to get rich.

Connotations of the vocabulary are indictative:
—vest—clothing, vestments, etc. Hence, to wrap, shield, protect (from something or someone)
—interest—(legal) share, right or title as in ownership, regard for one’s own advantage.  “Too high” a rate of interest usually called usury, coming from the verb “to use.”  (It all stems from the Middle Ages somewhere, separating the kings, popes and lords from the serfs.)
  To separate—to put, bring or force apart,destroy unity. (“Divide and conquer.”)

A sizeable number of “investors” get ripped off and lose everything they had. A few “insiders” are high-class thieves who get obscenely wealtlhy—some due to inheritance, some due to luck and “connections,” not because they are “smarter” or “more entitled” (to quote a phrase!)

“Justice”  is a dirty word to people who have no respect for it.

@grym - if you’re implying that I think there’s some cabal of plutocrats rubbing their hands in a dark room over the depredations they plan to rain upon us proles…sorry to disappoint you.

But look around you. If you don’t think we’re owned, you are willfully and blissfully ignorant.

It’s obvious that the current legal and regulatory structure of our economy favors the concentration of wealth and power in few hands. This cartelization of the economy is a natural result of (giving them a great benefit of the doubt) well-meaning liberal technocrats regulating every human action they can, and greedy (current or wannabe) plutocrats guiding that regulation for their benefit.

Neither group wants to see power devolve to the masses (for different reasons), so their governmental agenda, by-and-large, coincides. They don’t need to all get together in some great conspiracy to screw us. They’re just doin’ what comes naturally.

Lafayette, C.Curtis, Entropy: Why are you encouraging him? He’s just a troll probably sent here by some right-wing org to monitor and disrupt effective discussions on TruthDig.  He hasn’t altered an iota in a couple of years—always defend the Fox News line that gets sent around virtually daily, even when today’s like directly contradicts yesterday’s.  Waste of time.

I simply avoid his posts the way I would a pile of dog shit on the side-walk.  I watch for it and step around it, but don’t obsess over it.  I don’t get angry anymore. I simply pay no attention other than the vague interest that HERE is the Fox line, dictated by Rupert Murdoch and Roger Ailes, conveniently laid out by their mail-man here.

Lafayette,

Are you being disingenuous?

My point has never been about wealth.  In fact, the question I pose is directly related to your obvious obsession with wealth.  More specifically, your obsession with punishing the wealthy for being wealthy.

You still have not answered the question.  Now I’m curious as to why you’ve gone to such extraordinary lengths to avoid answering, what should be, a relatively easy question.

In which nation is it more likely that Oprah Winfrey can become a billionaire?

-

My point has always been about freedom.  Not wealth.

A chef brags to a diner: “My two best dishes are Rack of Lamb and Peach Cobbler!”
The nonplussed diner responds: “And which is this…?”

*****
frecklefever, July 13 at 9:46 am Link to this comment

TAO WALKER…BEST POST…
*******

How can you tell????

entropy2,

Who is it, exactly, that make up this Plutocracy you envision?  Bill Gates? Oprah? Buffet? Soros?  I never get an answer to the question.

I don’t see a Plutocracy.  I see nothing nearly that organized.

-

I’ve argued in the past that if the goal is to punish billionaires and millionaires then we cannot stop at punishing only America’s wealthy.  To do that only gives advantage to China, India, Russia, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Japan, etc..

If we are bent on punishing billionaires and millionaires on a global level, then the next question seems evident.  How to do we accomplish such a goal while not creating a single, all encompassing, ever-more-powerful, global governmental Plutocracy?

GRYM: Which nation on the planet is it more likely that someone such as Oprah Winfrey -dirt poor as a child- may become a billionaire?

Why do you pose the question in those terms?

Why is becoming a billionaire important to you and others like you who think the accumulation of capital is the be all and end all of one’s existence?

MY POINT

You’ve asked the wrong question. Rather, ask this one: “Why am I obsessed by extraordinary wealth?”

Total Tax Revenue Collected by U.S.:

(Source: Congressional Budget Office, Office of Management and Budget.)

(Oct. 1, 2009 to Sept. 30, 2010 = U.S. Government (Fiscal Year) FY 2010, etc.)

FY 2008:  $2.5 Trillion

FY 2009:  $2.1 Trillion

FY 2010:  $2.16 Trillion:  of which:

.......... 42 %  came from Individual Income Taxes

.......... 40 %  came from Social Security/Social Insurance Taxes

.......... 9 %  came from Corporate Income Taxes

.......... Other: Excise, Estate and Gift Taxes, Customs Duties, Miscellaneous Receipts

Hi Robert,

Another great column.  I do ask that all of us progressives start using “class based” language instead of current political party language: a majority of the Demopulicans would go along w/ cuts to Social Security if they thought it would work to get them reelected. Just look at the huge betrayal of working stiffs when Democrats, Clinton in the lead, enacted the supposedly Republican plan for “NAFTA”, which should’ve been called “NAFCGA”: North American Free-up Corporate Greed Agreement”

C.Dillon,

Perhaps you should revisit my posts here.  I’ve not been writing about wealth.  I’ve been writing about freedom.  And my original question was directed, initially, to one individual for a very specific reason.  You assumed far too much and went off on a bit of an odd, completely unrelated, tangent.

If you do revisit this thread you’ll see that it was you who first made overall wealth an issue.  It is you alone who made the number of global billionaires an issue.  And it was you alone making scatter-shot assumptions.

I’m certain you can assume less and listen more thoroughly.

GRYM - the fact that one person can make a billion dollars is largely irrelevant. The question is whether three hundred million people can obtain basic human needs without being bullied into serfdom to corporate lords. The plutocracy’s contempt for the working class is obvious. To them, the world is divided into exploiters and exploited…and they know which one they plan to be. That’s why they have bought the state.

Sadly, the liberal elite shares the same view of the working class. To them, anyone who’s not smart enough to be a crook is too stupid to run his own life. They don’t trust the unwashed enough to allow the genuine distribution of the plutocracy’s POWER, so they support an intrusive and oppressive state, controlled by the plutocracy, and content themselves with demanding more scraps for the ignorant grunts (while themselves enjoying the perks of their house-slave status).

Freedom is not on either of their agendas.

Government fee-for-service health care produces too many crooked doctors and clinics. Ideally, physicians, technicians, nurses, etc., would be government employees working at government-owned hospitals and clinics. This is how the U.S. Dept. of Veterans Affairs provides health care to veterans.  Government owned and operated healthcare would mean virtually no fraud, complicated billing procedures, overutilization, or greedy insurance CEOs.  Bottom line: Medicare and Medicaid should be zeroed out, and the VA (or something like it) should pick up the slack.

Manipulators and opportunists galore.

Lafayette mentions Grover Norquest an opportunist who represents who? Why do politicians lock themselves into these kind of corners. Does Norquest help them gain office,? Probably. 

Obviously the Republican are not representing their continuants, the huddled masses, the people who voted for them. I will never understand why anyone would vote Republican?

No, it seems always the same, the manipulators, the lobbyists and plutocracy seem to feel entitled, infact demand to be entitled because of all there hard work?.

Oprah Winfrey is the antichrist according to some evangelical nitwits out there. So we have Norquest, Karl Rove and the born again tea bags who feel they are entitled?

TAO WALKER…BEST POST…

TAO Walker

In the end, you’ve pointed out the true end game we face. Mother nature will eventually grow bored of the constant crap we’ve dumping on her precious planet and she’ll make amends to correct the problem. She’s already practicing and will get it right eventually. Our greed and stupidity only serves to give her more ways of finishing us off. Starvation, drought, floods, massive storms ... or all of the above will serve her very well. She’ll correct course and start over with another species I suspect. She’s got plenty of time to get it right.

Oh, and one more thing: out of my very long post you only could grab hold of the last part about how shallow your focus was? Pretty pathetic and indicative that you couldn’t argue with anything else so found something that rubbed you sensitive fur the wrong way and stuck to that. How sad.

GRYM

Let’s see, how can I assume that from your post? Well, you talked about how many billionaires we created in this country (obviously you too can look at Wikipedia) and how Oprah made a billion dollars where? In America. Your entire post was talking about money and wealth so I assumed, rightly I think, that you were emphasizing that part of the “American Dream”. One has to draw conclusions from what is presented and you got stuck on the $$$$. If that’s not your focus you need to try a bit harder to clarify your point.

Now that the Judeo-Xtian injunction to “Be fruitful and multiply, filling the earth
and subduing it…..” (in a nuts’hell, the idiotic “dominance”-paradigm), is finally
come back to bite its true believers in the ass (and with a vengeance), the ‘air’ is
filled with the complaints of people who just can’t seem to ‘get’ that what went
around has indeed come around.  So today it is their own too-precious “self”
in-line for the same ruthless subjugation they’d always been CONvinced would
be inflicted only upon “the lower orders.”

Robert Scheer and others of his bent CONtinue nevertheless to ply their peculiar
pejorative trade….a ‘blame-game’ gig they’ve been sufficiently ‘good-at’ to
keep them in the comforts and CONveniences to which they’ve become
addicted, and so feel their “self” to be “entitled.”  They are all, though, of
whatever ‘political’ persuasion, mere niche marketers in an increasingly
atomized bazaar of the bizarre.

A frequently heard lament is to the effect that all of the potency CONcentrated
in the ideological/institutional/technological CONceits of the “civilized”
wannabe dominators/ dominatrixes, if only it were wielded properly by carefully
selected (and adequately paid) collections of the (entirely theoretical) “just” and
“moral” “individual,” could be deployed to relatively easily solve the problems
that very same CONceptual complex has brought-about here in-the-first-
place.  In-other-words, it is only the “money”/“power”-maddened perfidy of
the “self”-chosen few (in the instant instance the “GOP”) which is CONdemning
the muddled many to ever-worsening misery.   

Meanwhile, the “self”-generated shit-storm now breaking over the whorey
heads of homo domesticus is absolutely no respecter of ‘party’ or ‘position’ or
‘sexual preferences.’  Which is to name just a couple of those myriad make-
believe CONstructs over which the inmates and administrators alike, of the
“global” gulag, are presently obsessing their own “self,” and each others’, to-
death.

For our Mother Earth and Her Whole Living Arrangement, of course, “the
problem” has always and only been what to do about the depredations of the
domesticated Humans who tried so foolishly, and futilely, to subdue Her and
ALL ‘the rest’ of us….Her “solution” being, finally, to simply (and justly?) let ‘em
dissolve their “self.”

HokaHey!

SICK PRIORITIES

Where did the dogmatic sick priorities gestate? 

Have a look at this article: [url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/grover-norquist-the-anti-tax-enforcer-behind-the-scenes-of-the-debt-debate/2011/07/12/gIQAPGNSBI_story.html]
Grover Norquist, the anti-tax enforcer
behind the scenes of the debt debate[/url].

There is nothing sicker than a simpleton political operative who sees the world mono-chromatically in Money Green. Well, maybe those who signed his “pledge” are sicker?

All this bickering about “woulda, coulda, shoulda” doesn’t solve anything the
dialogue here is just as bad as the ideologists sitting in Congress and the White
House like a bunch of 6 year olds arguing over a bag of candy! 
Simple - August 2nd everything that is non-interest bearing comes to a grinding
halt! No Firefighters, No Police, no Social Security checks,  no Medicare, no
Medicaid, no teachers paychecks, no State funding, no roads, no Subsidies to
Farmers (which if you eat, you’ll see the prices of food go through the roof within
a week), inflation goes through the roof on everything, no tax subsidies to Oil
Companies ( so the price of gas could double or triple), no state or national parks
to park your fat asses in - non, nada, finite`... period!
How’s all that fit with your petty arguing over who dunnit??? If you are not self
sufficient you are gonna sink with this big bathtub of a Titanic - Glub!
It’s called “DEFAULT” on all non- interest bearing Public Services you nimrods!!!

GRYM

It always amazes me that some people ‘with the least’ will carry water for corporate interests.  What turns regular working people into people who believe that to defend capitalism is to defend democracy and the US?  Capitalism in NOT democratic, nor is it written in the Constitution.

mrfreeze,

I repeat.  Your anger completely blinds your mind.

You also make a terrific mistake in believing you represent the majority on the planet.  You represent the miniscule minority.

Drop the anger.  You’ll see better.

C.Curtis.Dillon, - “are you really arguing, GRYM, that the only measure of a country is how many rich people it produces?’

-

No.  I suggested nothing of the kind.  I believe any argument such as that would be ludicrous. 

How did you assume so much from anything I’ve written?

No GRYM - I, Mr. Freeze have a crystal clear mind about the way the world works. You confuse anger with a laser-focused revulsion for capitalist propaganda. I just call bull-shit when I read it. If you felt a little….......chill…...from my words, perhaps it’s because you know that your Any Rand, childish view of the world isn’t what most thinking humans believe in.

To ksoskin:

So our alternative, McCain and (shudder) Palin were the valid “progressive” option?

One must admit that taking on health care was some demonstration of progressive work.  Not to mention abolishing don’t-ask-don’t-tell, attempting cap-and-trade, and preserving federal unemployment benefits.

Not sure Hillary could have pulled off as much, considering how much conservatives truly hate her. 
(Of course, conservatives do a pretty good job of hating just about EVERYone.)

I have voted for the likes of Jesse Jackson and Ralph Nader and Michael Dukakis - but sometimes one needs to be able to rack up a win once in a while.

OK GRYM, I’ll take the bait: if we look at Wikipedia, sure enough, there are 412 American billionaires, more by far than any other country in the world. Case closed ... right?

But that’s not really fair since smaller countries get short changed in the comparison so let’s look at per capita numbers. By that measure, Hong Kong bets us by a country mile, with 5.14 billionaires/million population. We come in second, with only 1.34 billionaires/million while Russia would seem to be third with .7 billionaires/million. So, we’re not number one in this comparison.

We should continue. Looking at the list of American billionaires, I see a large number of inherited fortunes including the Waltons (Walmart), the Johnsons (Johnson and Johnson), the Annenburgs (not sure of where their money came from) and really, does inherited wealth really count in this comparison? We also see a lot of hedge fund managers and investment bankers in that list and again, do we want to reward or even acknowledge that speculating on money is really an honorable way to make money? I don’t think so.

Third, we really need to look at current trends, not historical numbers when we answer a question about the here and now. China has 115 billionaires while Russia has 101. These all emerged in the last 20 years and started from nothing around 1990. By that measure, I would argue that someone striving to make a billion should go to Russia or China where things are really hopping right now. America only makes billionaires through financial manipulation and that really doesn’t count. They make nothing but grief, sell nothing but fraud.

But, mostly, are you really arguing, GRYM, that the only measure of a country is how many rich people it produces? That’s a pretty shallow measure I would think. It’s easy to make millionaires when the people are downtrodden and beaten. The elites can almost piss out money in that situation. Oprah got rich because she had immense talent combined with a single-minded dedication to being successful. She sacrificed everything for her dream and I’m glad she made it. But pointing out one of the few exceptions who succeeded doesn’t argue that the system is good. Your argument falls flat. America is no longer the land of opportunity it once was. Only those with money can prosper now, everyone else will find the mountain too high to climb.

mrfreeze,

Your anger blinds your mind.

JM,

We disagree.  Talent can be found on every continent.  If you would simply answer the question. - Which nation is it more likely that someone like Oprah Winfrey may become a billionaire?

We can try a slightly different question.  Which nation on the planet is it more likely that a baker, plumber and restauranteur may become a millionaire?

-

Note:  The vast majority of U.S. millionaires and billionaires are “self-made”.  Very few felt the need to steal from others.  Most simply worked extremely hard and took risks.

Many here, perhaps most, think it’s wise to steal from those whom dare to dream, work hard, and create jobs for others.

Go Right Young Man:

Spare us your sophomoric history-economics lesson. I’m sure there are more than a few commentators here on TD can shoot your “wealth distribution” argument full of holes.

Suffice it to say that perhaps it is you who are afraid that answering my question flies in the face of your shallow world view. We are founded on the principle of “We The People”......not “We The Bazillionaires.”

By the way, many of the bloodiest crimes on earth have been and are being perpetrated by “the wealthy” against the poor (whom you cry your capitalistic-alligator-tears for).

“And that the GOP-led House has gotten a supposedly progressive president to
consider doing serious damage to our most vulnerable population in order to
placate Republicans determined to continue massive tax breaks for the wealthy
is morally obscene.”

If you can’t see that Obama is not and never was a progressive president, I can’t
imagine what he would have to do to get you to realize it.  And it isn’t the
“GOP-led House” that “gotten him” to “consider doing damage” to Social
Security and Medicare to “placate Republicans”—it’s the wealthy elite who
benefit and who are driving this, who own both Democrats and Republicans
and have owned Obama at least since the day he took office—and how can
you not know this at this point?  And on this website?

It is a complete waste of time to perpetuate a good Democrats/bad Republicans
context for what is happening in our government. There is no difference
between the parties’ real objectives; they serve the 1% elite.  Any appearance of
difference is nothing more than political theater meant to distract us from how
we are being subjugated and disenfranchised.

mrfreeze, - “Azzholes like you.”

-

Your “distribution of wealth” ideology nearly always lead to brutal dictatorship and the starvation of tens of millions of human beings. - The very definition of insanity is banging your skull, or worse yet, the skulls of others, against a wall again and again.

“There’s something for you to think about….............”

It’s really too bad some American hasn’t stepped forward to suggest really DIFFERENT ways of solving all these problems.  We have historically relied on innovation - “Yankee ingenuity” to come up with inventions and new products; but it seems war and finance have not been targeted by similar outside-the-box thinking. 

I recommend a national brainstorming session with standard brainstorming rules.  (Rule #1 = NO idea is discarded out of hand - each idea analyzed completely, rationally, and without referring to traditional objections).

If a bunch of goofy puppet gnomes can survive week after week on America’s Got Talent, we can generate some new ideas to save our country.

E.G.
- A penney tax on each stock market trade INcluding
  machine-generated ones - might also reduce computer
  “landslide” moves in the market.
- Exempt health providers from law suits if they can
  prove their medical procedures follow accepted norms
  amd produce healthy outcomes
- Provide Medicaid discounts at those quicky health
  clinics while charging Medicaid patients a surcharge
  at emergency rooms for non-emergent visits (flu etc)
- Discounts at grocers and produce vendors for those
  following accredited weight-loss diets
- Revise the tax code so all citizens and corporations
  pay at least SOME Federal income tax
- Spread out Fed refunds over a few months instead of
  paying in a lump sum

“Go Right Young Man, July 13 at 7:06 am

Which nation on the planet is it more likely that someone such as Oprah Winfrey -
dirt poor as a child- may become a billionaire?”

Talent is what rose here and “dirt poor” children in the US seldom do what Oprah
Winfrey has done, which is comparable to the “dirt poor” but highly talented and
courageous Spanish bullfighter becoming a wealthy celebrity. Great talent has
risen in all cultures and times. You are making the point that it is opportunity in
the US that made Winfrey’s rise possible, and that is not the case, and is far less
the case today than in the past.

THIS BICKERING GOVERNMENT THAT PASSES AS LEADERSHIP IS
OBLIVIOUS…ITS BEING REPLACED ON THE NET BY A STEALTHY MOVEMENT
OF NASCENT PATRIOTS WITH MORE MOXIE THAN THE PROFESSIONAL POLS
CAN COMPREHEND…

Go Right Young Man -

“Which nation on the planet is it more likely that someone such as Oprah Winfrey -dirt poor as a child- may become a billionaire?”

That’s easy: The United States

Now, a question for you.

Which nation on the planet is more likely to produce ass holes like you?

That’s easy: The United States

In the future you should not presume that “becoming a billionaire” is a benchmark by which people measure themselves. For the record there are 422 Billionaires in the US. That statistic means absolutely nothing in terms of this particular discussion, but even so, if they did not exist and their wealth was distributed amongst the 300+ million other humans in this country, would it matter…............Wow….now there’s something for you to think about….............