This is mindless and irresponsible.  It is not the ban on heterosexual marriage that caused the pedophile scandals (plural: Catholics used to argue child abuse was confined to American parishes; now we know better).  It isn’t the rule of celibacy that is at fault but the culture of homosexual pedophilia that is epidemic in the Church.  If you’ve read the works of Ranke-Heinemann, perhaps you are aware of the fact that many heterosexual priests in Europe are secretly married.  Your position implies that the vow of celibacy would stop pedophilia in the R.C.C.  Nunsense.

All this Old Savage has to offer in-response to gerard’s queries about a “way” beyond the mostly self-inflicted (and soon-to-be terminal) predicament of our Sisters and Brothers making-up the sub-species homo domesticus is, naturally, The Tiyoshpaye Way….The Way of Genuine Organic Human Community.  It IS the natural organic FORM of Humanity within our Mother Earth’s Living Arrangement, and is therefore naturally in-keeping with our given organic function here as vital components in Her immune system.

The artifactual “individual,” and the pressure vessels called the “nuclear family” from which those rogue particles get spun-off, are both designed to be lethal to All-concerned.  Aggregated more-or-less randomly into “states,” they become the enabling co-dependents of that retro-viral “corporate” pseudo-form presently running rampant and wreaking havoc upon Earth and all Her Native Children.

“Civilization” itself presents here as a disease.  There is no remedy for it, and no relief from its multitude of ultimately deadly effects, short of doing-away with it altogether….All together.  The hopeful belief often expressed so sincerely here by gerard, and probably shared by many among her fella ‘n’ gal inmates, is for some “way” to keep the “comforts” and CONveniences of “modern civilization” while getting shut-of its degenerative and destructive properties.  The damned thing, however, is all-of-a-piece, so that vain “HOPE!” is doomed to disappointment.

As for possible ‘alternative’ ways-to-go, if “viable” isn’t an essential requirement, well, there’s always annihilation….The Medicine of last-resort.

HokaHey!

This is not about marriage; it’s pedophilia! This is child abuse and torture performed by the leaders of a religious cult on some of the most defenseless of our society.

Because they are sodomizing and torturing for Jesus they get a pass. Politicians are scared shitless to rigorously deal with the criminal origination known as the Vatican. It’s a rogue state that provides sanctuary for pedophiles and other sex abusers. Why is the pope allowed to travel freely? Why, as the head of that criminal organization, isn’t he arrested when he travels outside of his country, Vatican City? Why hasn’t the U.S. broken diplomatic relations with this rogue state?

The impunity should surprise no one, after all, these religious organizations condone and encourage the mutilation of children’s genitalia and nary a voice is raised in outrage. The things humans do in the name of their non-existent gods is incredible.

If atheists would promote genitalia mutilation of infants and small children in the name of atheism, there wouldn’t be an atheist left alive within days. But torture, mutilate, rape, sexually abuse and sodomize in the name of—and on behalf of—the non-existent Jehovah (YHWH), Jesus or Allah and there is no limit to the horrors that can be inflicted upon fellow human beings with impunity.

Where are Jehovah (YHWH), Jesus, and Allah when these children are being abused and cry out for help? The sooner the big three monotheistic gods (in Christianity it’s a ménage à trois) are laid to rest with all the other gods of antiquity, the better off we’ll all be.

That billions of 21st century adult Homo sapiens still believe in fairy tales does not bode well for the future of our species.

““PARIS—I would think one judgment history will make on the
Catholic Church’s Second Vatican Council (1962-65), under
Pope John XXIII and Pope Paul VI, will be a reproach for its failure
to lift the rule of celibacy for secular priests. This has not been a
moral failure.”“
****************************

For what it is worth as far as an ‘organized religion’ is concerned
that is dominated and ran by a bunch of retromingent popes,
bishops and priests and most especially for the RCs is to get all
out in the open, hold nothing back, including all that that is
hidden in the catacombs beneath the vatican which will further
open and expose to the light and fresh air, that which is
festering and rotting while trying to ‘minister’ to the ‘laity’.

And from my comment here on TD ‘How the Pope Can End the
Scandal’, I say if there is confusion about any of this to go WAY
BACK into history to find the first beginnings of the origins of
religious thought/ideas and follow that through its evolution to
today.

This is a start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_origin_of_religions

Look for why there is esoteric and exoteric information of these
‘current’ religions; search the purpose and reasoning for the
masons or freemasons.

No, a married clergy will not stop molestation of children, but it will lessen the
instances. And it will make the church readier to throw them out. Right now the
church is desperate to hold on to any member of its rapidly shrinking priesthood.
Do you really think that congregations will remain Catholic for 2-3 generations
when they are without a priest?

TaoWalker, the treatment is not in “health care reform” and you know it.  Further, the burden of it is far beyond mere “health care”.  The treatment is in somehow reviving, nurturing, encouraging the “universal mother” which is, in so many words, the spirit of the earth “herownself”—as you would put it. The vital question is, exactly how. Is there a this-way, and a that-way, and are there other-ways yet to be discovered, remembered, created?

So here we have exposed yet another symptom of the “civilization” disease.  Here we have yet another futile exercise in would-be symptom suppression.  Meanwhile, there are more and even worse outbreaks in-store for homo domesticus.

Anything in “health-care reform” to ‘treat’ that?

HokaHey!

ALBIGHENSIAN CRUSADE– 1209-1321 CE

Innuendos of a love illicit, mystical,
divine, other-worldly, unorthodox
affiliations at Eleanor’s Courts of Love,

enthusiasms of knights for ladies
of scandalous repute traveled on the tongues
of troubadours through Italy, Spain and France,

north even across the Alps to chilly Germany. 
Legend concealed subversive rumors
of a faith that pointed back to the ancient

worshipping of women, weaving conquest
into seduction – an idea long forgotten
under the force of masculine aggressions.

Called “Catharism,” these ideas thrived
as worship of virginity in men and women
and insistence on poverty and simplicity.

It installed no hierarchy, no priest or idol.
Dante’s New Love bloomed with the anemones
on hillsides in Provence till the snake

Of orthodoxy curled and bit its tail.
The Church responded in a rage
aimed at controlling kings and scholars
       
and unruly serfs whose lowly lives
were scarcely worth the gleaning.  Thousands
were hungry, restless, pox-bitten and afraid.

Under this new teaching, as with the ancient
Gnostics, lay adoration of the warm-hearted
Mother, that magical bearer of us all,

welcoming all men, in or out of season,
without vow or promise. Such a liberation
made doctrine a mere shell to be cast aside.
       
The Pope, enthroned in distant Rome,
was the richest man on earth. They scorned him.
Like a fire of dry grass the heresy spread.

Pope Innocent himself at length took on
what he felt was God’s calling to expunge
such calumny.  He sent out investigators

who tortured large numbers of suspects
without evidence, merely on suspicion.
“Kill them all! God will save His own!”

Many thousands, including Jews, suffered
a final ten-month siege at a fortress not far
from Eleanor’s Provence – a stronghold

high atop a peak near the town of Albi.
When the castle fell, crowds of men and women
burned silently, without protest. Of those killed,

only about two hundred were known Cathars.
The Inquisition followed, and Holy Church
was dragged to Hell by the evil weight of it.

Gerard—2010 (one of a series)

The church has clung to a medieval notion of “reason” (systematically ordered
assertions based on logic, no empiricism needed, thank you very much). This
“reason” claims a basis in science, but the science of Aristotle, not science as we
know it.

Thus the church knows everything and its only role is as instructor and scold. It
cannot learn. It is literally “finished,” complete in knowledge, infallible,
omniscient. It worships itself.

My point in bringing up all the other forms of child abuse—physical, intellectual, spiritual—was not to minimize or exonerate the sexual aspect but to call attention to the broad general lack of real concern for children in modern American society.

This widespread abuse of kids (examples are rife, such as inadequate juvenile detention facilities, misguided behavioristic techniques, violence throughout every sector of adult society that ruins kids’ lives, poverty, poor education—well there’s no end to it,) and yet no one reading this string bothers to answer any of these issues.  Tells you something?

An infallible ideology teaching fallible people will always result in some kind of injustice.

So, i say, don’t teach at all unless u also teach by good example. Religion 1,2,3,4,5,x is ideology or science 1,2,3,4,5,x.

And there are some thousands of these sciences to choose from. So choose wisely!
I have chosen mine. It is religion kx7 and my god kx7! Oh how sweet my ideology is! tnx

Here’s a couple or three things to think about.

First (as was already referred to) not every un-married man is a child molester, by any means! Marrying off Catholic clergy is supposed to stop them diddling the kids? That’s obscure reasoning designed to push another agenda.. the end of celibacy rules.. after that if these crimes continue they’ll have to go back to square one..

Which is the second point I’m wanting to stress.. What the heck is wrong with having the church expect and demand superior people as clergymen? .. not just average people who may or may not abuse kids at the same rate as non-church officials.. those which absolutely will not abuse their influence over others.. for sex or money or whatever. Certainly congregations of worshipers still see their church leaders as such exceptional people.. though it is less obvious to me all the time why they cling to such silliness.

And third, though you have to look through the news to find it (they pop up and quickly disappear) the abuse of kids and other congregants is by no means limited to the Catholics! Look at the frauds and scandals and abuse cases here in the US by good-old American preachers..

The root cause of the problem may be as simple as giving over your real trust and most intimate hopes to a pastor or clergyman (or anyone) of any stripe. I know! there was this very special guy who about two thousand years ago gave us a bright example of the power of love and trust and faith.. Applying all that in these times is the tough thing.

Adios!

It’s a shame; personal spirituality has evolved from
the realm of the sublime to being hijacked by
mainstream/organized religion; all religions.
We’ve given up our direct link to the almighty to
mere men; who’ve no connection to anything but a
desire for power over all men.
Of course it’s corrupt; because the motives don’t
come from the great mystery that has awed humankind
for millennia, but rather from the distorted hearts
of men.
Until we can walk away from the great organizations
that deem what our spirituality should be; and can
thus find our way back to the mystery we once
experienced first hand, we are doomed to wandering
until the day we die, without a clue about the life
we have lived.

...and another point.

It seems to me that the point regarding Jansenism also exchanges cause and effect.  To some extent Catholicism does adapt to national traditions and environment.  The fact that American Catholicism was more influenced by Jansenism is more likely due to the fact that America itself was Puritan from the start.  Ireland was ruled by the English, where many Puritan religions have their origins. 

Jansenism, which initially enjoyed support in some circles of the Church, was also in part an experiment to defuse the rise of the Calvinist type of protestantism (in France for example).  In the end the Church declared Jansenism a heresy partly for political reasons: the strategy to keep France Catholic was to go precisely in the direction of a more liberated type of Catholicism, often even on sexual issues.

First of all: Dear Jack,

  Great point!  Many campaign against celibacy of the priests, when at the same time in the enlightened western World marriage is becoming scarce.

  Generally: I think the article neglects a few factors throughout.  It was not an easy matter for the Catholic Church to celebrate modernism or the Enlightenment, when in fact the first thing these movements often did was to kill large numbers of the clergy (see the French Revolution).  Moreover, if one believes Dickens’ account of the French Revolution (I do, and so did Chesterton), the abuses of the nobility and the clergy which preceded the FR, were followed by a quasi-Soviet style dictatorship, a kind of mob rule based on a primitive interpretation of egalitarianism, often self-contradiction and a general bloodbath.  In places such as the Vendome, where the majority of the population was against the Revolution, the bloodbaths were much more thorough.  This kind of modernism culminated in the real Soviet Union, which had many supporters among the intellectual class of the modern West. 

On an ideological level modernism always had and still has a strong utopian element to it, the idea that we can entirely free humanity of worldly suffering.  Naturally, one should do the best to eliminate or ease the suffering of fellow men.  I personally find, however, the utopian claim that one can eventually free humanity of worldly suffering very dubious, and contrary to history and human experience.  The judeo-christian idea suffering with meaning and consolation in faith, while cannot be proven, but seems much more convincing, not to mention better preparation for reality.  The most inspiring achievements of the West took enormous sacrifices, which likely would not have been born, if not for the latter point of view.  Perhaps I am not alone in thinking that there has been a decline in such achievements in recent times.  And who knows what will happen, if the West throws away the latter entirely, and substitutes it with the former?

It is true that today there is a crisis in the Catholic Church, and the responsibility of the clergy (at least particular members) can not be denied.  However, I do think if the victims were the primary concern, then the media campaign would look somewhat different.  Previous posters have already mentioned how wide-spread paedophilia is in other institutions.  Moreover many cases simply aren’t proven: unfortunately such cases are probably very difficult to prove unambiguously, but there is a large profit motive from would-be victims, lawyers, etc. 

On the political side the Catholic Church has been surprisingly rebellious in the last decades, Benedict XVI (not XXIII) is critical of all the Western wars in the Middle East, including the looming attack on Iran, has called for a two-state solution in Israel, has criticized Israel thouroughly on many occasions.  His predecessor was perhaps the only genuine opponent at that level of political stature in the West of the Iraq wars, and one could go on and on to list possible political motivations of the current Western elites to attack the Church.  I think in the U.S. the Church certainly earned the ire of both the Democrats and the Republicans (at least the Neo-Cons).  His traditionalist views on some issues are a definite no-no in the eyes of the utopian modernists of the E.U.  Benedict’s attempts to reclaim the role of the Church in Western intellectual life is a threat to the academic monopoly, his criticism of the consumer culture and his views on environmentalism, is probably not welcome by secular progressives for similar reasons.

It is also an interesting correlation that while Christianity is in decline in the West, and appears to have a future in the Latin world, Africa, and Asia, it seems that the Western World as a whole is in decline, and the Latin World and Asia are increasing their influence.  Perhaps this is more than a correlation….

celibacy, in and of itself, is outdated. in a bygone era, it was possible to lead an existence that was disentangled from the larger web of fucking.  nowadays, it’s all connected—and whether you like it or not, you’re fucking someone or something at the end of the day. whores.
 
for visual blasphemy @
http://maximillianeinstein.com/thehaplesscapitalist/?p=435

Ya gotta figure that any religion which, demands priests to be celibate ,or asexual,
is going to attract some strange company….....

Married clergy has not stemmed the decline in the Anglican Church or other mainstream Protestant denominations. To infer being married would have prevented child abuse is not tenable. Child abusers are people (mostly men) who get a sense of power from being able to control those too young to stand up for themselves. The issue of child abuse is widespread, it happens in schools and in other secular organizations, the fact the Catholic Church has their share is no surprise. What is a surprise is that abuse in other sectors such as juvenile detention, public schools are rarely addressed. In one study done in Chicago in the 1990s, in the wake of the false accusations against Cardinal Bernardin the percentage of child abuse priests compared to abusers in public school was much lower.

It seems that a majority of laypersons who are convicted of acts involving pedophilia, or at least a majority of those whose crimes are reported in the media, are males whose victims were female.  However, in a significant majority, perhaps even the vast majority, of the reported incidents of priests molesting and/or raping children, the victim has been a boy.  Is this somehow indicative of the type of person attracted to the supposedly celibate priesthood, or is it a function of some other cause?

Not much said about messing up millions of kids’ heads with video war games, domestic violence, “intelligent design”, hellfire and damnation, Columbus “discovered” America, my country right or wrong, ghetto schools with filthy lavatories and no art supplies. Exploitation
of children goes far beyond the Catholic Church, most of it talked about and talked about, and then callously ignored.

In the immortal words of Al Swearingen: “FUCKING A!”  That ‘horse’ is way too long out-of the barn now to make a damn bit of difference, though, here in these latter-days.

So how ‘bout ordering every priest to wear a “DEADWOOD” jockstrap, instead.

HokaHey!