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The Confederacy Isn’t Something to Be Proud Of

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Posted on Apr 12, 2010
"Scars of a Whipped Slave" / National Archives

By Eugene Robinson

It was bad enough when Virginia Gov. Bob McDonnell proclaimed Confederate History Month without mentioning slavery, but at least he came to his senses and apologized. Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour’s contention that the whole controversy “doesn’t amount to diddly” is much worse.

“I don’t know what you would say about slavery,” Barbour told CNN, “but anybody that thinks that you have to explain to people that slavery is a bad thing, I think that goes without saying.”

And that’s the problem—Barbour thinks it “goes without saying.” The governor of the state whose population includes the highest percentage of African-Americans in the nation believes it is appropriate to “honor” those who fought for the Confederacy. Clearly, he has no problem with revisiting the distant past. Yet he sees no reason to mention the vile, unthinkable practices—state-sanctioned kidnapping, torture and rape—that those Confederate soldiers were fighting to protect.

It amounts to much more than “diddly” that so many Americans try hard to avoid coming to terms with the reality of slavery. It wasn’t just “a bad thing.” Littering is a bad thing. Slavery was this nation’s Original Sin, and yet many people will not look at it except through a gauze of Spanish moss.

The Atlantic slave trade was one of the last millennium’s greatest horrors. An estimated 17 million Africans, most of them teenagers, were snatched from their families, stuffed into the holds of ships and brought to the New World. As many as 7 million of them died en route, either on the high seas or at “seasoning” camps in the Caribbean where they were “broken” to the will of their masters.

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If he has never done so, Barbour should hold in his hands some of the leg irons, manacles and other restraints that were used to subdue the Africans. He should visit some of the plantations where slave cabins still stand—there are plenty in his state—to get a sense of how the Africans lived. He should spend a long, hot day picking cotton. He should read the accounts of plantation life written by former slaves, and then he should explain why there is any reason to “honor” soldiers who fought to perpetuate a system that could never have functioned without constant, deliberate, unflinching cruelty.

The point, of course, is not that Haley Barbour, Bob McDonnell or any other white Southerners living today are responsible for crimes committed long before they were born. They shouldn’t have to feel guilty for things they didn’t do. But they—and the rest of us, too—should know the extent to which the history of this country was shaped by what was euphemistically called the “peculiar institution.” Americans should know, for example, that Wall Street’s rise as a financial center was largely fueled by the cotton trade, which could not have functioned without slavery—and that when the Civil War began, the mayor of New York, Fernando Wood, tried to find a way for the city to remain neutral so that it could continue its lucrative business dealings with the South.

What “doesn’t amount to diddly” is the revisionist notion—which Confederate History Month celebrations perpetuate—that the Civil War was about something other than slavery. The “lost cause” die-hards insist that the treasonous rebellion was a fight over freedom or the Constitution or states’ rights. But the “right” that was being fought over was the ability to own human beings, compel their labor, buy and sell them as if they were livestock, exploit them sexually and torture or kill them if they tried to escape.

McDonnell’s apology, at least, recognized that slavery was nothing to be proud of. It should be noted, however, that Virginia’s previous two governors—both Democrats—did not feel the need to proclaim Confederate History Month. McDonnell’s original proclamation, before he amended it, seemed designed to appeal to a fringe group for whom the Civil War is still an open question.

This is a free country—for black people, too, thanks to the defeat of the Confederacy—and so if some white Southerners want to celebrate the “heritage” of slavery, they are welcome to do so. But while they’re entitled to their own set of opinions, they’re not entitled to their own set of facts. I’d say that Haley Barbour’s studied ignorance was “a bad thing,” but that would be a gross understatement.

Eugene Robinson’s e-mail address is eugenerobinson(at)washpost.com.
   
© 2010, Washington Post Writers Group


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Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, November 11, 2010 at 10:23 pm Link to this comment

“Mean?” It was a scientifically ordered genocide for Jews and Romany among others. Why be proud at all? For what exactly? Sounds like national narcissism to me.

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By allen m, November 10, 2010 at 9:49 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

does that mean Germans shouldn’t be proud of their ancestry because Hitler was mean to Jews? or Egyptians shouldn’t be proud of their culture because pharaohs used slaves to build the pyramids? etc etc…

The Condfederacy was about more than just slavery, it was a way of life that had the misfortune of going out of style. It doesn’t matter if you think slavery is good or bad now, the fact is it was necessary for thousands of years (in every major civilizaton) and is what got us to where we are now.

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By ofersince72, August 21, 2010 at 2:26 am Link to this comment

You have eight ,great, great grandfathers,

did any of them serve in the Union Army?

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By ofersince72, August 21, 2010 at 2:12 am Link to this comment

I very seldom do wikipedia,  and it sure wouldn’t be to
waste my time to find out what a troll is.

But if that is the label I must bare,  I will wear it

like a badge!!

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Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, August 20, 2010 at 5:45 pm Link to this comment

Wikipedia has all the information about trolls you need.

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By Hammersmith, August 20, 2010 at 12:28 pm Link to this comment

my great great grandfather fought four years in the army of northern virgina to bring down the u.s. government and end yankee domination of america.  i have lived to see what he fought for come true.  i am pleased.

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By ofersince72, August 20, 2010 at 12:15 pm Link to this comment

It was all that mosquedebating

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Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, August 20, 2010 at 11:49 am Link to this comment

You said it not me.

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By ofersince72, August 20, 2010 at 11:37 am Link to this comment

I guess that would make me a TROLL

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Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, August 20, 2010 at 11:13 am Link to this comment

Trolls cause trouble by interruption and not being interested in dialog. Just derailment of the discussion.

Don’t dismiss what happened in Dixie or New England it was just as bad today and worse yesterday. A blot upon us and the Grand Experiment, that was tainted from the beginning by sexism and racism to this day. When we are over those we will be better off.

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By ofersince72, August 19, 2010 at 9:02 pm Link to this comment

Trolling, that word is used a lot on websites.

and you NEVER took me seriously.  What is a troll?

A troll, I suppose is anyone who challenges the status
quo that got us to this corporate controlled dictarship
that we are in right now.

But YOU on every occasion, find some way to rationalize
the present state we are in…thus what other term
could I come up with to describe this?
I used to take you very seriously also$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

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Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, August 19, 2010 at 8:52 pm Link to this comment

Foolish me, I took your trolling half-way seriously.

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By ofersince72, August 19, 2010 at 7:56 pm Link to this comment

Yeah,  well Boston was worse than any place in the
South right up to the present.  And it was an Oakland
Police officer that shot the young man.

And you are a SHILL..$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

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Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, August 19, 2010 at 7:43 pm Link to this comment

The problem is that the South identified itself with the Confederacy, and the Confederacy identified itself with slavery based on race—voluntarily, overtly, explicitly.  When the Civil War was over, the South conceded that it was still part of the Union, but it never dealt with its identification with racism and slavery.  Instead, most of the White people elected to perpetuate the identification through Jim Crow.  Regardless of wrongs committed by the Union, before, during or after the war, that has to be dealt with, and waving the Stars’n'Bars and whistling Dixie isn’t going to do the trick.

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By ofersince72, August 19, 2010 at 7:09 am Link to this comment

It is sad ,  we started out exterminating people,
then both the North and the South brought Africans to do
their manual labor for free.

Virgil Caine is the name and I served on The Danville
Train
Till Stoneman’s calvery came and tore up the tracks again
In the winter of ‘65, we were hungry, just barely alive
By May the tenth Richmond had fell
it’s a time I remember,  Oh so well

The night they drove ole Dixie down
And all the bells were ringing
The night they drove old Dixie down
And the people were singing
They went La, la, la, de, da, da

Like my father before me, I will work the land
And like my brother above me, who took a rebel stand
He was just eighteen, proud and brave, but a Yankee
laid him in his grave
I swear by the blood below my feet,
You can’t raise a Caine back up when he’s in defeat

The night they drove ole Dixie down
And all the bells were ringing
The night they drove ole Dixie down
And the people were singing

ROBBIE ROBERTSON AND THE BAND….........................
I believe Robbie was trying to make the point that I
have been trying to convey….
If you haven’t seen THE BAND’S mid seventies video
THE LAST WALTZ….please do so…it is an American
treasure.
 
  The point, the South was never anymore guilty of any
crime than the North,  that as in all wars there are,
only victims on both sides. Blacks did not win their
freedom from the Civil War,  both the North and the South
continued the slavery.  Sometimes we need to reflect.
All the wrong ones get accused.
The leaders of the present South, need to quit manipulating over the Dixie issue, and the leaders of the
North need to understand the Norths contribution to this
divide.
AND WE ALL NEED EACH OTHER AND NEED TO FINALLY HEAL THIS.

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By ofersince72, August 19, 2010 at 2:46 am Link to this comment

I sang Dixie as he died
The people just walked on by as I cried
The bottle had robbed him of all his rebel pride
So I sang Dixie as he died

He said way down yonder in the land of cotton
Old times there ain’t near as rotten as they are
On this damned old L.A. street
Then he drew a dying breath
And laid his head against my chest
Please Lord take his soul back home to Dixie

He said listen to me son while you still can
Run back home to that Southern land
Don’t you see what life here has done to me?
Then he closed those old blue eyes
And fell limp against my side
No more pain, now he’s safe back home in Dixie

I sang Dixie as he died
The people just walked on by as I cried
The bottle had robbed him of all his rebel pride
So I sang Dixie as he died
I sang Dixie as he died

(Dwight Yoakam is one of my favorite Country Artists,
I don’t believe he ever whored himself to Nashville
and is one great American)

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By ofersince72, August 18, 2010 at 10:12 pm Link to this comment

Yes it is old,  and thank you.

I thought it pertinent to all the other discussion
and was just making a point,  I am sure most on here
know history.  But there to many making excuses for
the aggressive actions of our government today.

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By prgill, August 18, 2010 at 8:04 pm Link to this comment

To Ofersince72:

This discussion is old and it would surprise me that you should get much discussion.

Your comment that the North and the South were in a struggle for “industrial monopoly” is on the money, in my opinion, and deserves a broader hearing.

The deeper problem though, is that this is not the first time, nor will it be the last time, a collective interest (in this case, industrial power and the creation of community wealth) is dressed in “sheep’s clothing”. We went into Iraq in 1991 to “free Kuwait” and to “stand up to unprovoked aggression”. Again, in 2003, we acted to “make the world a safer place”.

On the other hand, these rather venal actions on the part of the American polity must be contrasted to other, less obvious interventions. In the 1990s we helped to ensure a smooth transition to representative self-government following the break-up of the Yugoslav Republic. Grenada, Panama, Lebanon, Korea, Europe… where does one draw the line?

Colonization and cross-cultural exploitation, which is not to say, racial exploitation is human nature. That doesn’t make it right. It means only that one must know what one’s best interest if one is to defend one’s stake in the public good.

Thanks for the note, Ofersince72.

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By ofersince72, August 18, 2010 at 7:04 pm Link to this comment

T H E…..A Z T E C .......S Y N D O M E…..........

as it applies to the W A R….O F….1 8 1 2….........


anyone care to discuss that???

You…..I N J U N S ...should…for it was really all
about you guys and gals…...............................
and had little to do with the Second Revolution….......

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By ofersince72, August 18, 2010 at 4:40 pm Link to this comment

Eugene Robinson’s Journalism is definetly

N O T H I N G   T O   B E   P R O U D   O F ! ! ! ! ! ! !

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By ofersince72, August 18, 2010 at 3:27 pm Link to this comment

I ought to check my spelling before I post, it is

terrible I must say, if I would read what I wrote before

I posted, some , but not all would be corrected

Report this

By ofersince72, August 18, 2010 at 2:48 pm Link to this comment

Hammersmith,  I am one that understands the heart felt
grief of all the brave young men in the South that died
very bravely, and with much gallentry.  For what the
South had to work with, they did a remarkable job.

  But those brave Southern lads, just like their northern
counterparts, were patsies and pawns of a larger scheme
that had little to do with slavery.

  The leaders of both the South and the North were in
a struggle for industrial monopoly, slavery was used as
a tool for support.
  It was the because the North presented the war to
Europe as an issue of slavery that the South lost all
European support.
  After the Emancipation Proclamation, all ship contracts
that the South had with England were cancelled,  same
pretty much in France.
  However the Emancipation Proclamation didn’t free one
slave, for the proclamation was directed for European eares and exempted the three Northern slave holding states
In the the other states, the North couldn’t free the slaves because the South was kicking the hell out of the
North.  If generations later, the posterity of the
Southern Army wants to be proud of how the Southern lads
fought, they have every right to be proud, the North
couldn’t handle them, shuffled generals around until no
one would take the job because they were getting their
asses kicked by well led Southern Gernerals..
  The lack of a Navy is why the South lost, also, the
North could lose 20 men to 1 .  That is how Grant laid
his claim to fame on the Western front. He just kept
sending column after column not caring how many died and
knowing he could overwelm the South with numbers. The
North was conscripting immigrants just as they walked
down the gangway of the ship that brought them to America,
many couldn’t even speak English.
  So yes , there are some proud moments for the South,
however, Slavery isn’t one of them, nor the Jim Crow that
followed.  And the North has nothing to brag about with
its race relations after the war, the north hid the
blacks away in gettos,(still today) the South made them
indentered slaves (or servents if you prefer, nevertheless
they were still slaves)
  The Civil War is yet another American Lie
and for this reason the
A Z T E C   S Y N D O M E
applies to the Civil War also.

love you, love the South, and GOD BLESS AMERICA (please)

Report this

By Night-Gaunt, August 18, 2010 at 9:36 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Yes Hammerskin, er smith please elaborate on the joy and beauty of being a traitor and love of traitorous acts.

Report this

By ofersince72, August 17, 2010 at 11:51 am Link to this comment

please tell us about it.

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By hammersmith, August 16, 2010 at 3:57 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

the confederacy IS something to be proud of.

Report this

By dich vu seo, August 15, 2010 at 7:11 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Like it or not, throughout much of the Bush
administration, the public was conditioned to believe
the following:

  * Filibusters were a key traditional Senate
protection designed to thwart the tyranny of the
majority as embodied by the Bush-Cheney steamroller
(Republicans, to be fair, often damned them as
obstructionist).
  * Recess appointments were the desperate acts of an
executive without confidence in either popular or
legislative support. Popular protests were grass-
roots democracy at its finest.
  * Occasional fringe groups that frequented anti-
war, anti-Bush rallies, and called their president
horrific epithets or threatened violence, were either
irrelevant or forced into such understandable
extremism by their own government’s excesses.
  * The once-abhorrent expression of hatred in
popular culture for the president (cf. e.g., Knopf’s
Nicholson Baker novel Checkpoint, about killing Bush,
or the Toronto Film Festival award winning a
docudrama about assassinating George Bush, or
Jonathan Chait’s New Republic essay “The Case for
Bush Hatred,” or Michael Moore’s abhorrent talk after
9/11 about blue/red state deaths and his empathy for
terrorists in Iraq (“Minutemen” . . . “and they will
win”)) were not merely not abhorrent, but often
creative expressions that captured the mood of
popular dislike, and certainly no grounds for
ostracism (cf. Moore’s attendance at film openings
and conventions with top Democratic politicians).

In other words, apparently few on the Left realized
that in their dislike for Bush, and in their
tolerance for those who hated Bush, they more or less
changed attitudes toward acceptable and unacceptable
public expressions of dissent. So now the public sees
their sudden call for polite discourse as abject
hypocrisy. Even the toxic and increasingly desperate
charge of racism has little currency now, and soon
will boomerang back on the accusers.

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Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, April 26, 2010 at 11:12 am Link to this comment

To be correct John Brown was stabbed and during most of the death court case he was lying on a cot during the proceedings.


It was the compromise with the South that kept slavery on the books in order to not be overwhelmed by the British Empire. [Jefferson wanted to end it but it was not.] After the Civil War an economic form of slavery was instituted till the 1960’s. Now it is being used all over as a form of slavery. Wage slavery in fact. Slavery is on the rise during these past few years all around the world.

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Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, April 25, 2010 at 7:56 am Link to this comment

GRYM—You are incorrect about my ignorance of the slave trade; in fact, I have read a few detailed histories of it.  Not only did the entire United States participate (especially New England-based ships and ship-owners) but so did most of the European and West African states of that time.  (There was slavery elsewhere, but it was not generally involved with the Atlantic slave trade.)

The difference between these states and the Confederacy was that the Confederacy was essentially based on the preservation and extension of slavery.  The people who founded the Confederacy said so explicitly.  The election of Lincoln provoked secession because the ruling class of the South concluded, correctly I think, that the rest of the country would sooner or later exterminate their “peculiar institution”.

But, putting on some very thick ideological spectacles, perhaps we can make ourselves blind to the explicit, acknowledged meaning of the Confederacy and pretend the Civil War just happened to happen for no good reason.  Then what do we have?  A bunch of men fought and killed one another for no good reason.  It is sort of like celebrating a volcanic eruption or an earthquake.  I don’t think this is what’s going on.

As far as I’m concerned, people are free to wave the Stars and Stripes, the Stars and Bars, or the Nazi flag for that matter, and I’m free to name what I think they stand for, as is everyone else.  A lot of people think the Confederacy and its flag stand for racism and slavery, and they’re going to say so every time they appear.  I think they’re right to do so.  It’s only the plain truth, and it’s not going to go away.

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By ofersince72, April 25, 2010 at 7:38 am Link to this comment

the U.S. is running a 1.4 trillion dollar deficit
this year,  so they are going to blame it on public
housing…

Did anyone find the answer to the trive question…

What was the last month and year that the U.S.
ran a trade surplus???  It’s capitolism, ya know?

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By ofersince72, April 25, 2010 at 7:25 am Link to this comment

I don’t think we ought to forget all the harrassment
and censorship Lloyd Garrison recieved up in the North,
or Federal troops gunning down John Brown for trying
to free some slaves.

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By ofersince72, April 25, 2010 at 7:06 am Link to this comment

whatever happened to No_Mans_Land_??

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Go Right Young Man's avatar

By Go Right Young Man, April 25, 2010 at 6:54 am Link to this comment

Hypocrisy:
1: a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not; especially: the false assumption of an appearance of virtue

Bigotry:
1: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially :  one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

Hypocritical Bigotry on this Web site?  Within this very thread? You can all be the judge of that.

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Go Right Young Man's avatar

By Go Right Young Man, April 25, 2010 at 6:42 am Link to this comment

Fascinating.

No one here had ever heard of, or cared enough to comment on, Kenneth Gladney.

Here we have a Real and Verifiable event concerning a black man unmercifully beaten by Angry and Violent “Leftists”. These “Enlightened One’s” were caught on film calling Mr. Gladney a “NIGGER”.

Fascinating that no one here seems appalled by this behavior.

-

If we were confused in recent years as to whether “hate” was a permissible word in public discourse — as in the outburst of Democratic national chairman Howard Dean, “I hate the Republicans and everything they stand for,” or the infamous essay by The New Republic’s Jonathan Chait that began, “I hate President George W. Bush” — we now accept that such extreme language in the public arena is not merely uncivil, but is an incitement to real violence. The use of the word “hate” at last has become “hate speech.”

With Rep. Joe Wilson’s improper outburst to President Obama — “You lie!” — we also have at last come to appreciate that those in Congress have a special responsibility not to use incendiary language to defame our government officials. That’s why we now lament Rep. Pete Stark’s slur of George W. Bush from the House floor as a “liar” — the same Rep. Pete Stark who said of our troops that they had gone “to Iraq to get their heads blown off for the president’s amusement.”

But since 2009 Americans have finally learned that our soldiers are sacrosanct and must not be smeared — as in Sen. Richard Durbin’s characterization of American military personnel as synonymous with Nazis, Stalinists, or Pol Pot’s murderers; as in the late Sen. Edward Kennedy’s comparison of American troops to Saddam’s lethal jailers; as in Sen. John Kerry’s smear of our soldiers as acting in terrorist fashion. Evocation of Nazi or Brownshirt imagery particularly coarsens the public discourse; it demonizes opponents rather than engage them in real debate. So we can all concur now that Sen. John Glenn, Sen. Robert Byrd, and former vice president Al Gore spoke quite improperly when they compared their president’s governance to that of the Third Reich.

-

For the once-giddy Left, which misinterpreted the causes of the Obama landmark victory, the current pushback is seen as somehow terribly unfair, and thus arise both their own furor and their amnesia about their own past attitudes during the Bush years. I think ultimately many “progressives,” adherents to relativism, feel that the past furor over Bush in all its creepy manifestations was justified because of who Bush was; but that a similar methodology (or, in fact, far softer manifestations) of dissent toward Obama is unacceptable because of who Obama is (i.e. one can act rudely toward clearly bad people, but not rudely toward unquestionably “good” people). It is that simple.

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Go Right Young Man's avatar

By Go Right Young Man, April 25, 2010 at 6:37 am Link to this comment

Gladney II

Party politics is always the norm, but what is unusual this time around is the juxtaposition amid a landscape of feigned outrage that somehow politics are not “fair.” A bit of history is in order.

Like it or not, throughout much of the Bush administration, the public was conditioned to believe the following:

  * Filibusters were a key traditional Senate protection designed to thwart the tyranny of the majority as embodied by the Bush-Cheney steamroller (Republicans, to be fair, often damned them as obstructionist).
  * Recess appointments were the desperate acts of an executive without confidence in either popular or legislative support. Popular protests were grass-roots democracy at its finest.
  * Occasional fringe groups that frequented anti-war, anti-Bush rallies, and called their president horrific epithets or threatened violence, were either irrelevant or forced into such understandable extremism by their own government’s excesses.
  * The once-abhorrent expression of hatred in popular culture for the president (cf. e.g., Knopf’s Nicholson Baker novel Checkpoint, about killing Bush, or the Toronto Film Festival award winning a docudrama about assassinating George Bush, or Jonathan Chait’s New Republic essay “The Case for Bush Hatred,” or Michael Moore’s abhorrent talk after 9/11 about blue/red state deaths and his empathy for terrorists in Iraq (“Minutemen” . . . “and they will win”)) were not merely not abhorrent, but often creative expressions that captured the mood of popular dislike, and certainly no grounds for ostracism (cf. Moore’s attendance at film openings and conventions with top Democratic politicians).

In other words, apparently few on the Left realized that in their dislike for Bush, and in their tolerance for those who hated Bush, they more or less changed attitudes toward acceptable and unacceptable public expressions of dissent. So now the public sees their sudden call for polite discourse as abject hypocrisy. Even the toxic and increasingly desperate charge of racism has little currency now, and soon will boomerang back on the accusers.

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Go Right Young Man's avatar

By Go Right Young Man, April 24, 2010 at 9:20 am Link to this comment

Anarcissie, - “The current controversy developed out of attempt to forget—to slide past the facts of racism and slavery….”

-

I have no doubt that you perceive as much.  So I will simply disagree.

-

I fear that you are unaware of how enmeshed the slave trade was throughout all the states at the time.  You appear to believe, as many do, that the slave trade was an “Southern” phenomena.  It was not.  Every State in the union heavily relied on the economic model.

Applying your logic:  A ban of the Confederate Flag would be analogous to banning the Stars and Stripes because it once stood for slavery.  I would disagree with that also. 

IF the Stars and Stripes once stood for slavery it no longer does.  The same would have to hold true of the Confederate Flag today.


Let those who feel strongly about it be proud of their fallen.  It’s America.

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Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, April 24, 2010 at 8:29 am Link to this comment

Go Right Young Man, April 22 at 10:51 pm:
’... Most soldiers in the Antebellum South were fighting for their homes.  These were not inherently “evil” people.  I have no problem with honoring what each fought for.  Remembering how the Civil War started.  Equally remembering how it ended.  Never forgetting. ...’

The current controversy developed out of attempt to forget—to slide past the facts of racism and slavery which were at the center of the Confederacy.

If racism and slavery are abominations then the Confederacy was an abomination, regardless of what individuals who fought for the Confederacy thought they were fighting for.  There were Southerners who opposed racism and slavery; they are the ones who ought to be memorialized and honored.

Several years ago, at Harvard, someone started flying a Confederate flag out of her or his dormitory window.  A young Black student across the way commented on this, very appropriately, I think, by flying a Nazi flag out of her window.  The Black student was “requested” to remove the Nazi flag, and she did.  The Confederate fan apparently received no such request; it continued to fly.  So there is still some work to do.

The time has come for Confederacy fans to “man up”, as they say, or maybe “human up” and face their history squarely, as most of the Germans have tried to do, instead of evading and mystifying it.  It isn’t pretty, but maybe something can be salvaged.  Don’t wait for the politicians to lead, however; they will always suck up to the base, in every sense of the word.

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, April 23, 2010 at 9:48 am Link to this comment

Wondering aloud if anyone here has ever heard the name Billy the goat.  No?  I’m not surprised.  His is one of those stories that Eugene Robinson and other Liberal elites don’t want anyone to know about.

That darn Eugene Robinson will not write about Billy the goat and I tell you it is an important story to Billy and his friends.

Robinson could be bigoted towards goats?

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By Terry, April 23, 2010 at 7:00 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I have often been critical of Eugene Robinson for his delayed truth-telling skills. 

This writing is one that I am and he should be proud of.

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By ofersince72, April 22, 2010 at 8:36 pm Link to this comment

they just voted on this,
as they did last year.
The repubs always add an amendment that would allow
firearms, so it gets voted down.  They also add
another district for the reups.  It isn’t in
a consitutional amendment form.

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By Inherit The Wind, April 22, 2010 at 8:32 pm Link to this comment

ofersince72,
If that is the case, why do they bother to vote on
it then?  I agree , a constitutional amendment would
be best.  They vote on this almost every session, the gun legislation is added an an amendment every time.

****************************************************

Please try reading the Constitution. The District is very specifically defined (the “what”, not the “where”) and therefore modifications to its status REQUIRE a Constitutional amendment.

While you are doing this, please read how the amendment process works.

****************************************************
I don’t believe that I have ever called you or anybody
else on Truth Dig any names.

****************************************************

You really should work on reading comprehension.  I said “insult”, not name-calling.  They are different.

ITW

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By ofersince72, April 22, 2010 at 8:17 pm Link to this comment

I don’t believe that I have ever called you or anybody
else on Truth Dig any names.

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By ofersince72, April 22, 2010 at 8:15 pm Link to this comment

If that is the case, why do they bother to vote on
it then?  I agree , a constitutional amendment would
be best.  They vote on this almost every session, the
gun legislation is added an an amendment every time.

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By Go Right Young Man, April 22, 2010 at 6:51 pm Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt, “If we have a day about the Civil War it should be a solemn occasion. Not one of those who wish it had turned out differently”

-

I know of no one who is extolling anything like what you have perceived (desiring to reintroduce slavery or turn back the clock).  People have enough to discuss and work through without creating phantoms.  Yes?

Mr. Robinson is simply wrong.  Or myopic, if you will.

Most soldiers in the Antebellum South were fighting for their homes.  These were not inherently “evil” people.  I have no problem with honoring what each fought for.  Remembering how the Civil War started.  Equally remembering how it ended.  Never forgetting. 

Yes. Commemorate both the pains and the triumphs that brings any nation into being.  Let those who feel strongly about it be proud of their roots. Particularly in America.

This feels to me like a situation to either respectfully morn and rejoice or move along quietly.  No one is threatening you or Mr. Robinson.

-

As an aside.  I hope that you can appreciate that the entire nation was once enmeshed in the slave trade.  I hope that you understand that a great many people in the North supported the economic model.  I hope that you take the time to see for yourself that a great many people in the South, most in fact, did not support or own slaves themselves.  These families did not suffer and die to enforce the right to posses slaves.

The end of slavery in America was hastened by the Civil War.  It was not its cause.  Proclaiming the end of slavery was a means of defeating the South.  Where the economic model employed across the nation would be most negatively effected.  Thank God it worked.

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By Night-Gaunt, April 22, 2010 at 5:13 pm Link to this comment

But should we extol such parts that aren’t very good? The American Civil War was a bad thing. It was started for one reason but ended up being about another. If we have a day about the Civil War it should be a solemn occasion. Not one of those who wish it had turned out differently to act as if it was a positive thing in the first place. Cromwell‘s time is recorded in history in England but not extolled as a good thing no accomplished, that same with the Nazi era in Germany. How is that being a “thought police” kind of action?

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By Inherit The Wind, April 22, 2010 at 5:07 pm Link to this comment

ofersince72, April 22 at 8:25 am #

Your post shows what little YOU KNOW…
and Norton’s vote don’t count , ask her

****************************************

You are right, of course.  I thought you could READ.  Apparently that’s one of the things I was desperately wrong about.

See, I said Ms. Norton was a NON-VOTING delegate. In English, “non-voting” means you don’t get to vote at all, not that your vote doesn’t count.  And I DO know that DC cannot and will not EVER get to elect a House or Senate member without a Constitutional Amendment.

You can yell and scream and insult me and hold your breath till your face gets blue, but that’s a fact.  Clearly I know that and you don’t.

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By Go Right Young Man, April 22, 2010 at 4:31 pm Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt, - “I still haven’t seen where you condemn a commemeration of the Confederacy. You do agree don’t you that it is a bad thing?”

-

I will passionately and persistently speak out about bigotry and divisiveness.  With that said; I’m not interested in the role of the Thought Police.

I think the Japanese have every right to commemorate their history.  I believe it’s human nature for the German people to commemorate both their positive and negative generations.

I have no problem with any community being proud of their brave and fallen.  Most soldiers from the antebellum South were fighting for their homes.  Literally.

Being proud of the fallen has nothing, whatsoever, to do with the horrific institution of slavery.  ITW can better explain how and why the Civil War was not all about slavery.  I also believe the issue of slavery should be discussed.  Openly.  Never ignored.

Let those who feel strongly about it be proud of their roots.  It’s America.  We should never erase history from our discourse.

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By Go Right Young Man, April 22, 2010 at 3:29 pm Link to this comment

Wondering aloud if anyone here has ever heard the name Kenneth Gladney.  No?  I’m not surprised.  His is one of those stories that Eugene Robinson and other Liberal elites don’t want anyone to know about.

Mr. Gladney went to a town-hall meeting hosted by Rep. Russ Carnahan, Missouri Democrat. While passing out “Don’t Tread on Me” flags, he was viciously attacked by Service Employees International Union (SEIU) members. One SEIU member can be heard on the video saying; “What Are You Doing Here, Nigger”?

While the attack was captured on video and is available on YouTube, Mr. Gladney’s horrifying story is suspiciously absent from MSNBC, CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS and the New York Times.  Interesting that there’s not even a snippet of it here on TruthDig.

It seems real, tangible, verifiable evidence of “enlightened liberals” calling someone a “Nigger” doesn’t fit into the narrative of the evil Tea Party protesters.

Eyes wide shut, ITW? smile

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By ofersince72, April 22, 2010 at 4:25 am Link to this comment

Your post shows what little YOU KNOW…
and Norton’s vote don’t count , ask her

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By Inherit The Wind, April 22, 2010 at 3:51 am Link to this comment

Ofersince72:
Why do you continue to post 4,5, 6 posts in a row that all say pretty much the same thing?

And, in none of them do you support your assertions.

Plus, they are at worst false, at best misleading.

DC residents vote for their local government, Mayor and other officials, and, by the 23rd Amendment, they could vote for 3 electors in the Presidential election.

They do not have voting representation in the House or Senate, although they have a non-voting delegate to the House, Eleanor Holmes Norton.

Change requires another Constitutional Amendment and THAT requires passage by BOTH houses and 33 states.

So you babble on in multiple posts and babble nonsense. I, too, know DC, having once lived in that area for a decade and still have many friends there.

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By ofersince72, April 21, 2010 at 11:48 pm Link to this comment

Eugene , please ask your Democrat friends this

Why do they have to appease the Republicans and give
them another district just because a bill that should
have been passed years ago gives citizens the right to
vote in D.C.?????????????????????????????????????????

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By ofersince72, April 21, 2010 at 11:43 pm Link to this comment

But you see Eugene,

I have been around D.C. politics as long as you have.

and know just what is going on ...you see…

Blame the Republicans because of an amendment that didn’t
have to be in the bill.
Then you get the minorities mad at the republicans for
the bill being defeated so the Dems can keep the
minority vote that they don’t deserve.
If the Democrats really wanted the Blacks to vote in D.C.
they would have constructed a bill that would have made
it possible.  DO DA   DAY   DEMOCRAT LIARS

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By ofersince72, April 21, 2010 at 11:37 pm Link to this comment

Eugene, have another question,

The Dems had 60 senators and a whole bunch of
majority in the House..

How come they couldn’t find a way to get all those
black citizens a vote in D.C.

And a Dem President (that sure didn’t push this like
              he did his corporate health care bill
AND LET THE NRA SABOTOGE
THE RIGHT FOR BLACKS TO VOTE IN D.C.
I would say the Demacrats are racist !!!!!!!!!!

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By ofersince72, April 21, 2010 at 8:41 pm Link to this comment

Eugene,,,

Maybe you can answer this for me…
How come the Democrats won’t release the money
to the black farmers????

And how come it is being left up to
Dennis Kucinach to fight for this????????????

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By Night-Gaunt, April 21, 2010 at 9:52 am Link to this comment

No GRYM I have not studied the marches in detail nor do I have the time or inclination. As to the reported “Anarchists” they would blow in during a peaceful demonstration, smash things then conveniently run away and those left who had nothing to do with it are the ones arrested. You should look more closely. (Of course any who are arrested are police and get off free later.) Since you have some idea of police work you are aware of “stings” and “agents provocatuers” aren’t you? Police in the USA aren’t known for their sterling reputations but as agents of gov’t and corporations. I put Anarchists in quotations because that is how they are identified in the news stories. I don’t recall any being arrested. But if you could point me to one story I will read it. The problem is that police routinely use agents under their protection to get what they want. It is called corruption, that you would never have investigated.

Tea Bagger is indeed now an insult, especially when they found it also refers to a certain sexual act, but not when they originally used it several years ago. And they still like to use Tea Bags as a symbol I must remind you.

I don’t trust the police. Too often here and most anywhere else they are instruments of the PTB.

I still haven’t seen where you condemn a commemeration of the Confederacy. You do agree don’t you that it is a bad thing?

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By Anarcissie, April 21, 2010 at 8:35 am Link to this comment

I would be most surprised if any violence emanated from present Tea Party exercises.  Going by the pictures it’s the wrong demographic—the Tea Partiers are mostly seriously middle-aged overweight White males.  Such people have no desire to fight in the streets.  In any case right-wing violence in the U.S. after the 1960s has been almost always either officially organized or secretive (like blowing up abortion clinics).  Palin’s “lock and load” should be seen not as an order to the troops but mere habitual dumbness which is going to seem considerably less charming as the day wears on.

I think Raimondo is correct about the panic among “liberals” of the established order.  Or seeming panic.  If the Republican Party is falling apart, as it seems to be that’s one less party for the ruling class to manage.  A bit of panic could be a signal to the media wing to flap harder.

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By Go Right Young Man, April 20, 2010 at 7:04 pm Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt, - “Too often GRYM the violent ones were unnamed and curiously uncaught “anarchists” which were conveniently placed to set the police off on their violent spree against all there even if the others were doing nothing wrong at all and had nothing to do with it.”

-

“Uncaught” is not factual.  Multiples of dozens have been arrested and convicted.  These stupid, usually well-to-do young white male college students are too stupid to understand that Washington, and other major protest venues, are ringed for miles with cameras.  The cameras follow the individuals back to their cars where they are identified by their vehicle registrations. Smart boys..LOL

Interesting theory. I personally don’t subscribe to any of it.  You will disagree but my 25 years as an investigator has taught me that 92% of conspiracies are false.  The 8% that are sometimes frightening me in their simplicity and genius. - As an personal aside; I have tremendous respect for a good many people I could not catch myself.  Bastards! LOL

-

I wonder if you see clearly what you just claimed.  Those people, those anarchists, have nothing to do with protests against the previous administration.  It was the fault of the “bad people”.  The Other Side.

You also opined quite clearly that the actions of a few are not to be judged as the whole.  That part is interesting to me as I have been making that very argument for months.  So far you have disagreed with me of late at every turn in regards to the current protesters.

I saw Bush protesters smashing windows, smashing down doors, over-turning cars and beating people, yes.  I also saw several witness accounts, media accounts, police blotters and several prosecuting charges.

I’ve seen several news accounts and prosecuting accounts of people terrorizing and beating Tea Party protesters [Honestly now, there must ne about seven individuals amongst the entire crowd calling themselves “tea baggers”.  That’s a term of derision and you well know it. We should converse as adults.  “Tea bagger” is easy, lazy, petty and small).

-

Tossing your question back to you.
Have you seen anyone from the Tea Party crowd engaged in violence or call someone a nigger?  You and others continue to claim these things to be absolutely true.  I’ve been unable to verify any of it. - Perhaps you can aid ITW in finding those things (with URL:)~)  You could both illustrate just how wrong I am about these particular protesters.


Post Script: Anarchists almost always show up at “Left” leaning protests.  They are certainly not, in any way, aligned with Republicans or conservatives or even independents.  Anarchists are self described radical Progressives who reside firmly on the outermost Left.  You don’t see me attaching them to you! I’ll leave that to the hyper-partisan Hannity.

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By Night-Gaunt, April 20, 2010 at 4:49 pm Link to this comment

Too often GRYM the violent ones were unnamed and curiously uncaught “anarchists” which were conveniently placed to set the police off on their violent spree against all there even if the others were doing nothing wrong at all and had nothing to do with it. So maybe you should be less glib and partisan on this and more open minded to the fact that the police is the long blue arms of the powers that be. Right now the Tea Baggers (their term) are on their side and they are supported by the police. It isn’t because they are peaceful—-since that isn’t enough if you aren’t on the same ideological side as the cops.

So far I have seen very few of the Tea Baggers be violent though some of their cheerleaders certain like to use martial and provocative language. Does that bother you in any way? If only the perceived leftists got that same treatment. Did you happen to see any of that GRYM? Too bad they are under the control of the GOP and their organ, Fox News. Does that bother you? It would me.

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By Go Right Young Man, April 20, 2010 at 2:38 pm Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt,

I’m sure if you expend less time demonizing those unlike yourself, and put more energy into actually listening, you would find many issues to agree on. - The “Left” too seems upset about the structure of the, so-called, Bail-Outs, for example.  And I can’t recall the first or last time I met anyone who was pleased with the IRS on April 15.

You are correct in that the police are generally kind to those not breaking windows, turning over cars, breaking down doors, defacing and destroying national monuments, beating people for simply disagreeing and employing tactics of intimidation and bullying.  All the behaviors so prevalent during the protests of the last administration.

Most police Depts. frown on using a baseball bat to assault a vendor at an event. They tend to arrest those who beat a man and bite the tip of his finger off for merely protesting. Police tend to react when a woman and man are severely beaten and hospitalized after a political event. These examples of intolerance and brutal violence are frowned upon. - Unless, of course, you Hate protesters. Then all is fair, I guess?

-

Whining incessantly about a handful of “Birthers” after the collective cheers from the Left for Michael Moore and MoveOn Org is either disingenuous or, well, silly as hell.

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By Night-Gaunt, April 20, 2010 at 11:03 am Link to this comment

Of course it helps when the police are on your side. You don’t get harassed, not threats from “jackbooted thugs” who surround you and menace you then steer you and tear gas you. Yes they are so fortunate! Just imagine when Bush when president and Liberals came to peaceful meetings loaded for bear? It would have been as ugly as when they came unarmed.

It is no surprise that the Tea Baggers are predominately white, male, high earners and college educated along with even more conservative than most Republicans—-harder liners. Yet so many of them are birthers and deathers etc. A curious mixture to be sure.

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By Go Right Young Man, April 20, 2010 at 8:07 am Link to this comment

Well, it’s official.

The April 15 Tea Party protests took place all over the country.  The only arrests so far reported were in Seattle, San Francisco, New York and St. Louise.  Every arrest, so far, has been those trying to disrupt the protester’s lawful assembly. - I guess the so-called “Left-wingers” believe in freedom of assembly and speech, with one caveat - you must agree with them.

The race-baiting and hateful “infiltrations” were in force on April 15th as well.  Reports are coming in from New York, Washington DC, Sacramento, San Francisco, St. Louis, and Thousand Oaks of people pretending to be protesters carrying racially tinged and hateful signage.  On each occasion actual protesters identified the hate-mongers and pointed “infiltrator” signs at them so that nobody in the media could mistake them for actual “tea Party” protesters.

Zero violence.  With media and Internet bloggers at every event across the nation, involving hundreds of thousands of people in attendance, there was not a single racial or violent incident.  This latest protest was like each that preceded it.  Passionate. Lawful. Non-violent.

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By Anarcissie, April 20, 2010 at 7:55 am Link to this comment

jay1953—As far as I know none of my messages on Free Republic (delivered under a different pseudonym) have been deleted, but I take a fairly subtle approach to riling the ‘wingers.  They are pretty incoherent ideologically (like their Tea Parties) which leaves a lot of room for rhetorical maneuvering.  The down side is that they are such depressing company.

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By Go Right Young Man, April 19, 2010 at 4:23 pm Link to this comment

I get such a kick out of watching Olbermann talk on the subject of the “Bush/Obama” administrations.  It proves how absolutely wrong he was about the mean and evil FrankenCheney and Bush for nearly a decade.

Remember:  The Patriot Act, Rendition, Afghanistan, Iran, Domestic signal intelligence and even torture (Robert Glib says torture is not off the table) were all, very uniquely, products of the “Bush *Neo-Con* Cabal”.  -  And now the “Idiot”, Olbermann, feigns indignant about Limbaugh referring to the “Obama Regime”? ....LOL What an ass…..LOL

Keith is good for great laughs. smile  I’ll get my “News” elsewhere. 

-

And, yes, some on FOX News are just as guilty of the same odd, narrow-minded, behavior.  From my seat I see Hannity and Olbermann as polar opposite mirrored images of one another.  Useless if one wishes to be “Informed” on current events.

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By Night-Gaunt, April 19, 2010 at 1:33 pm Link to this comment

I am sorry ofersince72 but you have not shown me that MSNBC is anything like the tale spinners at Fark News. Not a bit of it. However if you would like to illustrate it with a comparable example I will be greatly interested. Otherwise it is just the simplistic ” they are both bad” canards sans proof. So put up please. Just one example. Because Olberman on more than one occasion has taken Obama to task for what he continues to do. The Bush/Obama administration you may call it. Not since the last two years of Carter did the ball started rolling to eviserate the Middle Class and give carte blanch to the rich and powerful. Both parties.

James Madison made the same warning that the USA would fall from within not from without. They are both correct as we see it unfolding.

Any honoring of traitors is a gateway to more problems. They are dead their honor was restored de facto and leave it at that. Any more and it is incitement to rebel. Not a good measure.

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By jay1953, April 19, 2010 at 10:35 am Link to this comment

If you want someone to fight with, I’d suggest Free Republic or some other right-wing forum.”

I’ve been to many a right-wing forums and my experience is that they have moderators that practice censorship. So your posts get deleted many times. After every right wing loony gangs up on you in the forum you’ll will eventually get banned. Then you have to re-register with a proxy server, different user name just so you can go in and curse them out just one last time. It is mostly an exercise in futility.

Lefty forums are a bit more tolerant.

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By Anarcissie, April 19, 2010 at 8:02 am Link to this comment

Mestizo Warrior, April 19 at 10:54 am:
‘I see a lot of comments here, many of which do not address the article written by Mr. Robinson.

Apparently many of these commenters are of that thinking that honoring the “heroes” of the Confeederacy is not such a bad thing. After all this all took place over 135 years ago. ...’

Practically everyone agreed with Robinson, therefore there was nothing to argue about until ITW asserted that the Republicans were racists and GRYM chose to defend them.  Then there was something to argue about. 

If you want someone to fight with, I’d suggest Free Republic or some other right-wing forum.

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By Leefeller, April 19, 2010 at 8:00 am Link to this comment

Emulating denial does not mean one is not a Bigot GRYM, especially in the way GRYM’s has broached the subject! How many Bigots know they are Bigots, or how many deny it or claim it?

If one notices the proportionate number of black governors and congressmen from the Dixie states, one can clearly see the black population is emulated in all fairness with the bigoted logic of a Tea Bag rally; a composite sea of black faces, reminds me of the million man march;  or like Fox news and the likes of fair and unbalanced pinky Beck and others. 

Black; even half black; Obama entrenched in the White house not serving food or opening doors, (must drive racists nuts) seems racists are crawling out from under their rocks and whistling Dixie!

GRYM, seemingly a Dixie promoting racist, in his own right,  always making those ever clear points, ..........whistle Dixie GRYM, waving a Tea Bag!

Hey! GRYM I saw something on TV which substantiates my point of view! GRYM should discover it and prove my point by Googling black Tea Baggers and and Dixie supporters who are Moslums,.......look it up GRYM and show your honor….. sir!

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By Mestizo Warrior, April 19, 2010 at 6:54 am Link to this comment

I see a lot of comments here, many of which do not address the article written by Mr. Robinson.

Apparently many of these commenters are of that thinking that honoring the “heroes” of the Confeederacy is not such a bad thing. After all this all took place over 135 years ago.

Well the sad truth is that people like Palin, Limbaugh, Beck, Rove, etc would love to implement full blown fascism here in the U.S. thus enslaving all of us regardeless of our race or color! The ignorant politicians who “honor” the soldiers of the Confederacy do so because deep inside they too wish slavery was still a part of our current situation!  SHAMELESS BASTARDS!

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By Go Right Young Man, April 19, 2010 at 3:31 am Link to this comment

ITW , - “I have lots and I’ve presented it in excruciating detail.”

-

Really?  I must have missed that.  Which thread or Web site did you post all those examples of violence from the protesters?......LOL…you sure didn’t post them here.

Was part of those details in the post wherein you pretended the Moon-Bats conspiring to kill policemen are part of the Tea Party protests?  I suppose the Earth Liberation Front is part and parcel of the same movement…..LOL

You surely are an interesting bird.

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By ofersince72, April 18, 2010 at 4:49 pm Link to this comment

“America will never be destroyed from the outside.
  If we falter, and lose our freedoms, it will be
  because we destroyed ourselves.”

    A B R A H A M   L I N C O L N

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By Inherit The Wind, April 18, 2010 at 4:20 pm Link to this comment

Ofersince72:  Did you fall in love with Dogbury, Verges and The Watch?  You keep saying “I am an ass” enough times and we’ll start believing you!

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By ofersince72, April 18, 2010 at 4:11 pm Link to this comment

That was honest….
Me too….
enjoy yourself Leefeller, I love your sense of humor

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By Leefeller, April 18, 2010 at 4:07 pm Link to this comment

ofersince72,

For simplistically s’ sake, I defend no democratic policy, except possibly the Ancient Greeks? Is this a trick question?

Though I am not overjoyed by our two party system I do not feel there is all that much difference between them except Elephants make huge dung piles compared to donkeys. Seems to me Democrats portray themselves as caring while the Republicans portray the opposite. Both parties portray themselves as self serving opportunists and have a strange attachment fetish for lobbyists, I really do not see all that much difference between them, except like Babe Ruth bars, they both floated to the top!

Some people say Ronald Regain who was a Republican was one of our greatest presidents ever, depending one where one was in the evolutionary economic cycle, I would offer a much different opinion, but I have read a book by Bonzo one of his co actors so I may be bias.

On the other hand, some people were quite happy with Clinton as a Democratic president, though I differ in my view here also, though I believe NAFTA was nifty for the same reason Regain would have supported it!

If the Republicans are the party of no, the Democrats are the party of,.... off the table. If Palin runs next time, I will vote for her, because I love the sound of finger nails on a chalkboard!

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By ofersince72, April 18, 2010 at 3:36 pm Link to this comment

Leefeller,

Just what Democrat policy is it that you defend?

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By ofersince72, April 18, 2010 at 3:30 pm Link to this comment

Night Gaunt,  of all people,  I can’t
believe you fell for the good guy, bad guy routine
that FOX and MSNBC is playing in order to keep the voters
voting in the middle.

It is a game the corporate media has played forever
to keep the duopoly (monopoly) in power, scare people
into the old lesser than evil vote, don’t vote independent
, vote against yourself interests, dems or pubs.

You seemed like one that knew how to think outside of
the box,  I guess I was mistaken, pardon me.

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By ofersince72, April 18, 2010 at 2:56 pm Link to this comment

Night Gaunt

I REALLY am against war,  not just a “feel good” vote
for party that has its supporters living in the past
believing they represent ideololy they haven’t
represented in my life time.

Keith Olberman took Bush to the Rack every night on the
U.S. involvement , murder, and invasion of Iraq.
He is duplistic as are the others.  They are mainstream
media that I have heard you speak against yourself.

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By ofersince72, April 18, 2010 at 2:29 pm Link to this comment

Because I want to put an end to the prison culture in
this country and refuse to vote for those that support
this prison culture, I am an ass.
Because I don’t believe that 30-1 is reform, I am an ass.
Because I believe every child deserves the same amout
of money for education, regardless of where they are born,
I am an ass

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By Leefeller, April 18, 2010 at 2:26 pm Link to this comment

Let’s see, we have GRYM who makes points never making one and we find ofersince72 has never lost an argument,  arguing with himself?

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By ofersince72, April 18, 2010 at 2:08 pm Link to this comment

The Pawns of the Corpostacracy come in many disguises.

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By ofersince72, April 18, 2010 at 1:59 pm Link to this comment

The Duopoly that you speak of is really a monopoly that
answers to the same financiers and fight for the money
that is thrown at them for their services.
That is what the fight is about between repubs and dems.
That is also why they both use the fear tactic in order
to get votes.

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By ofersince72, April 18, 2010 at 1:44 pm Link to this comment

Once again you can’t defend Democrat policy, just throw
slurs at the republicans for your defense, or throw slurs
at those who disagree with throwing their votes away
for something they don’t believe in, for very good reasons

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By ofersince72, April 18, 2010 at 1:40 pm Link to this comment

I just may be an ass but the ones that keep voting for
ones that have run this country to the ground
are fools

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By ofersince72, April 18, 2010 at 1:36 pm Link to this comment

Because I refuse to vote for those that support rendition
and execution of those we don’t know are guilty,
I am an ass.
Because I refuse to vote for those that turn a blind
eye to torture,  I am an ass.
Because I am tired of the MIC being our economic engine
spread into 435 congressional districts and refuse anymore
to vote for the ones that support this,  I am an ass.
Because I believe that all of our intelligence services
keep information from us that we should know more than
to protect national security,  I am an ass.

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By ofersince72, April 18, 2010 at 1:26 pm Link to this comment

Because I refuse to vote for the ones that are funding
war, waging war, and destroying culture, I am an ass.
because I refuse to vote for the ones that brought us
the Patriot Acts, I am an ass.
Because I refuse to watch a news network that doesn’t
report news, but only speaks of their opponents lame
policy, which varies very little from their own, I am an
ass.
Because I refuse to vote for someone that believes
charter schools are the answere to the education woes,
I am an ass.
YOU ARE RIGHT,  I WILL REMAIN AN ASS.!!!!

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By ofersince72, April 18, 2010 at 1:17 pm Link to this comment

Night Gaunt

I watched MSNBC enough to form my opinion.
It is not just the republican party that I fear the enemy.
In a sence, I fear the Democrats more, for they infer,
through outlets like MSNBC, something that they are not.

There are many asses that eat that fish food.
The system is not going to be opened up, it will remain
a duopoly. The party with sugar has been sour for a long
time.  It would be easy to go through a long list of
reasons why not to vote democrat, but you already know
them.  You still believe in the lesser than evil doctrine
that this Administration has once again proven doesn’t
exist.  The money influence also will never be broken
in your or my lifetime making it impossible to change the
party from within.  Since the policy of both parties is
principly the same except for rhetoric,  it would be much
faster to let the Democrat Party die and start a new
duopoly.

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By Inherit The Wind, April 18, 2010 at 9:59 am Link to this comment

One last time before you sulk away.  Do you have ANYTHING?  Anything at all?
************************************

I have lots and I’ve presented it in excruciating detail.  But I have nothing you are honest enough to accept and not dismiss out-of-hand, without regard to its validity.

I hope for the sake of our nation we don’t get stuck again with people in the White House and running who trash facts and logic as immorally as you do.  They nearly sank us into depression and fascism, and want to do it again.

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By Go Right Young Man, April 18, 2010 at 8:11 am Link to this comment

ITW,

By the by.  You made a tremendous mistake in highlighting the Frank Rich piece.  Your ability to rationalize your own perceptions are far more cogent than his.

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By Leefeller, April 18, 2010 at 8:05 am Link to this comment

GRYM reminds me of the contingent, everyone is a Zionist unless they they agree with their all so very clear points.  GRYM’s twisted pretzel unlogic is very much the same, everyone else is a racist/Zionist because they he says so!

GRYM making a point again!

GRYM may be something new and innervated in the Right Wing Conservative clones.  Never in the history of right wing politics has reason been attempted before. Normally waving tea bags over ones head holding up insulting signs calling everyone else a socialist or wearing sheets and burning crosses on peoples lawns was the normal right wing approach to reason. Now we have GRYM reason?

Well according to GRYM everyone is a raciest these days except GRYM and anyone who agrees with him, has anyone agreed with GRYM?

Everyone must understand and grasp the so evasive point necessary point of yelling racist! I suspect their is the simple joy of waving the red black and blue while conjuring up the most insightful racist and bigoted words, though it evades me. Claiming reason to use words like “Fag” and the “N” word in such loving ways,  GRYM reminds me of Limbaugh or Palin regularly using points of reason, by instilling feelings of love towards all humankind.

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By Go Right Young Man, April 18, 2010 at 7:59 am Link to this comment

ITW,

1. I have not been asking Mr. Rich the same set of questions for going on nearly two weeks.  I asked you.  2. Tossing a term from your ass, such as troll, does not further your agenda or your opinions.  It only serves to make you appear petulant - Not unlike a frustrated child.  Unable to think on your feet or support your views.

I read the Rich piece.  He lends many “Opinions” which, no surprise, parrots your own.  My question in regards to Rich is a simple one.  What makes you think that highlighting another’s opinions holds some weight?

You have repeatedly regurgitated the claims of others in regards to violence from the protesters.  For nearly two weeks now you have produced nothing by way of tangible evidence of said violence.  In fact you have avoided this question like an illness.

Yes or No?  Do you have anything?  Anything at all?  Or are you simply taking your cues from people in the media and repeating the same unproven claims because it fits with your perceptions of people you willingly admit you do not care for?

-

Yes I have openly labeled you a bigot.  I do this with good cause.  I would NEVER write such a thing if I had not witnessed it myself.

Bigot: obtuse or narrow-minded intolerance, especially of other races, religions or beliefs.

Learn this well, Sir.  Humans are human.  It is impossible to label any one group as more or less anything when it comes to inherent human traits.

One last time before you sulk away.  Do you have ANYTHING?  Anything at all?

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By Inherit The Wind, April 18, 2010 at 6:38 am Link to this comment

Read Frank Rich. I’m done with you, GRYM. You digust me. You are nothing but a disingenuous right wing troll.

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By Go Right Young Man, April 18, 2010 at 6:24 am Link to this comment

ITW,

I wanted this in a separate post because this is just that important.

I have asked you for almost two weeks now to lend some examples of the violence you keep opining on in regards to the protesters.  I have given you multiple examples of violence.  All of them directed TOWARD the protesters.

Do you have anything?  Anything at all?  Or is it simply unimportant for you to actually prove what you claim, while, at the very same time, you INSIST I must prove everything I opine? - URL’s included.

I don’t need URL’s.  I can do my own research.  Any examples that can be verified will suffice.

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By Go Right Young Man, April 18, 2010 at 6:11 am Link to this comment

ITW,

No one likes to feel foolish.  No one enjoys feeling tricked.  I understand that.  I was simply unable to use “logic” and “facts” to get you to see the folly in your accusations of racism and violent behavior by simply protesting foreign or domestic policy. - Or are you simply parroting Eugene Robinson, Chris Hedges, Keith Olbermann and Michael Moore?

What you are doing is wrong, Sir.  Especially the race-baiting.  Real people tend to lean toward REAL violence when people like you practice it.

-

Your differentiating Palin from Kerry doesn’t work.  You know it and I know it.  Nonetheless you remain steadfast in public.  You will continue your “dim-witted nit-picking”, as you would call it, in the mistaken belief that you can somehow save face.

Here are a few things to consider:

Humans are human.  No one group can be singled out as more or less bigoted or racist.  The practice of doing so meets the very definition of bigotry.

President Bush was the first in American history unable to complete the long held tradition of walking to the Capital on inauguration day due to disgruntled “Leftists” throwing things at him.  You haven’t a leg to stand on when you accuse “the Right” of being uniquely mean or belligerent when it comes to politics. Doing so is, well, to again borrow one of your terms, dim-witted and nit-picky.

-

When you find the time (or the courage?) perhaps you could address the subject of the violence from the Tea Party protests when there has been no evidence of said violence.  I would be more than mildly interested in seeing how you explain that bit of folly.

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By Inherit The Wind, April 18, 2010 at 5:09 am Link to this comment

I’m going to pull a “Robert” here and post an op-ed piece from today’s NYTimes by Frank Rich This is Part 1 of 3 parts:
****************************************************
Welcome to Confederate History Month


By FRANK RICH
Published: April 17, 2010

It’s kind of like that legendary stunt on the prime-time soap “Dallas,” where we learned that nothing bad had really happened because the previous season’s episodes were all a dream. We now know that the wave of anger that crashed on the Capitol as the health care bill passed last month — the death threats and epithets hurled at members of Congress — was also a mirage.
Skip to next paragraph
Fred R. Conrad/The New York Times

Frank Rich
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Barry Blitt

Readers’ Comments

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  * Read All Comments (44) »

Take it from the louder voices on the right. Because no tape has surfaced of anyone yelling racial slurs at the civil rights icon and Georgia Congressman John Lewis, it’s now a blogosphere “fact” that Lewis is a liar and the “lamestream media” concocted the entire incident. The same camp maintains as well that the spit landing on the Missouri Congressman Emanuel Cleaver was inadvertent spillover saliva from an over-frothing screamer — spittle, not spit, as it were. True, there is video evidence of the homophobic venom directed at Barney Frank — but, hey, Frank is white, so no racism there!

“It’s Not About Race” declared a headline on a typical column defending over-the-top “Obamacare” opponents from critics like me, who had the nerve to suggest a possible racial motive in the rage aimed at the likes of Lewis and Cleaver — neither of whom were major players in the Democrats’ health care campaign. It’s also mistaken, it seems, for anyone to posit that race might be animating anti-Obama hotheads like those who packed assault weapons at presidential town hall meetings on health care last summer. And surely it is outrageous for anyone to argue that conservative leaders are enabling such extremism by remaining silent or egging it on with cries of “Reload!” to pander to the Tea Party-Glenn Beck base. As Beck has said, it’s Obama who is the real racist.

I would be more than happy to stand corrected. But the story of race and the right did not, alas, end with the health care bill. Hardly had we been told that all that ugliness was a fantasy than we learned back in the material world that the new Republican governor of Virginia, Robert McDonnell, had issued a state proclamation celebrating April as Confederate History Month.

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By Inherit The Wind, April 18, 2010 at 5:06 am Link to this comment

Part 2.

In doing so, he was resuscitating a dormant practice that had been initiated in 1997 by George Allen, the Virginia governor whose political career would implode in 2006 when he was caught on camera calling an Indian-American constituent “macaca.” McDonnell had been widely hailed by his party as a refreshing new “big tent” conservative star when he took office in Richmond, the former capital of the Confederacy, in January. So perhaps his Dixiecrat proclamation, if not a dream, might have been a staff-driven gaffe rather than a deliberate act of racial provocation.

That hope evaporated once McDonnell was asked to explain why there was no mention of slavery in his declaration honoring “the sacrifices of the Confederate leaders, soldiers and citizens.” After acknowledging that slavery was among “any number of aspects to that conflict between the states,” the governor went on to say that he had focused on the issues “I thought were most significant for Virginia.” Only when some of his own black supporters joined editorialists in observing that slavery was significant to some Virginians too — a fifth of the state’s population is black — did he beat a retreat and apologize.

But his original point had been successfully volleyed, and it was not an innocent mistake. McDonnell’s words have a well-worn provenance. In “Race and Reunion,” the definitive study of Civil War revisionism, the historian David W. Blight documents the long trajectory of the insidious campaign to erase slavery from the war’s history and reconfigure the lost Southern cause as a noble battle for states’ rights against an oppressive federal government. In its very first editorial upon resuming publication in postwar 1865, The Richmond Dispatch characterized the Civil War as a struggle for the South’s “sense of rights under the Constitution.” The editorial contained not “a single mention of slavery or black freedom,” Blight writes. That evasion would be a critical fixture of the myth-making to follow ever since.

McDonnell isn’t a native Virginian but he received his master’s and law degrees at Pat Robertson’s university in Virginia Beach during the 1980s, when Robertson was still a rare public defender of South Africa’s apartheid regime. As a major donor to McDonnell’s campaign and an invited guest to his Inaugural breakfast, Robertson is closer politically to his protégé than the Rev. Jeremiah Wright ever was to Barack Obama. McDonnell chose his language knowingly when initially trying to justify his vision of Confederate History Month. His sanitized spin on the Civil War could not have been better framed to appeal to an unreconstructed white cohort that, while much diminished in the 21st century, popped back out of the closet during the Obama ascendancy.

But once again you’d have to look hard to find any conservative leader who criticized McDonnell for playing with racial fire. Instead, another Southern governor — who, as it happened, had issued a Confederate Heritage Month proclamation of his own — took up his defense. The whole incident didn’t “amount to diddly,” said Haley Barbour, of Mississippi, when asked about it by Candy Crowley of CNN last weekend.

Barbour, a potential presidential aspirant, was speaking from New Orleans, where the Southern Republican Leadership Conference was in full cry. Howard Fineman of Newsweek reported that he couldn’t find any African-American, Hispanic or Asian-American attendees except for the usual G.O.P. tokens trotted out as speakers — J. C. Watts, Bobby Jindal and Michael Steele, only one of them (Jindal) holding public office.

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By Inherit The Wind, April 18, 2010 at 5:04 am Link to this comment

Part 3.

New Orleans had last attracted G.O.P. attention in 2008, when John McCain visited there as part of a “forgotten places” campaign tour to deliver the message that his party cared about black Americans and that “never again” would the city’s tragedy be ignored. “Never” proved to have a shelf life of less than two years. None of the opening-night speakers at last weekend’s conference (Newt Gingrich, Liz Cheney, Mary Matalin et al.) so much as mentioned Hurricane Katrina, according to Ben Smith of Politico. When Barbour did refer to it later on, it was to praise the Bush administration’s recovery efforts and chastise the Democrats’ “man-made disaster” in Washington.

Most Americans who don’t like Obama or the health care bill are not racists. It may be a closer call among Tea Partiers, of whom only 1 percent are black, according to last week’s much dissected Times/CBS News poll. That same survey found that 52 percent of Tea Party followers feel “too much” has been made of the problems facing black people — nearly twice the national average. And that’s just those who admit to it. Whatever their number, those who are threatened and enraged by the new Obama order are volatile. Conservative politicians are taking a walk on the wild side by coddling and encouraging them, whatever the short-term political gain.

The temperature is higher now than it was a month ago. It’s not happenstance that officials from the Sons of Confederate Veterans in Virginia and Mississippi have argued, as one said this month, that the Confederate Army had been “fighting for the same things that people in the Tea Party are fighting for.” Obama opposition increasingly comes wrapped in the racial code that McDonnell revived in endorsing Confederate History Month. The state attorneys general who are invoking states’ rights in their lawsuits to nullify the federal health care law are transparently pushing the same old hot buttons.

“They tried it here in Arkansas in ’57, and it didn’t work,” said the Democratic governor of that state, Mike Beebe, likening the states’ health care suits to the failed effort of his predecessor Orval Faubus to block nine black students from attending the all-white Little Rock Central High School. That battle for states’ rights ended when President Eisenhower, a Republican who would be considered a traitor to his party in 2010, enforced federal law by sending in troops.

How our current spike in neo-Confederate rebellion will end is unknown. It’s unnerving that Tea Party leaders and conservatives in the Oklahoma Legislature now aim to create a new volunteer militia that, as The Associated Press described it, would use as yet mysterious means to “help defend against what they believe are improper federal infringements on state sovereignty.” This is the same ideology that animated Timothy McVeigh, whose strike against the tyrannical federal government will reach its 15th anniversary on Monday in the same city where the Oklahoma Legislature meets.

What is known is that the nearly all-white G.O.P. is so traumatized by race it has now morphed into a bizarre paragon of both liberal and conservative racial political correctness. For irrefutable proof, look no further than the peculiar case of its chairman, Steele, whose reckless spending and incompetence would cost him his job at any other professional organization, let alone a political operation during an election year. Steele has job security only because he is the sole black man in a white party hierarchy. That hierarchy is as fearful of crossing him as it is of calling out the extreme Obama haters in its ranks.

At least we can take solace in the news that there’s no documentary evidence proving that Tea Party demonstrators hurled racist epithets at John Lewis. They were, it seems, only whistling “Dixie.”

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By Inherit The Wind, April 18, 2010 at 4:52 am Link to this comment

GRYM:

Now you are being truly ridiculous.

Sarah Palin put GUN SIGHT CROSS-HAIRS on Democratic candidates.  Guns are for killing.  She didn’t put targets on them (that would be OK)—she put killing cross-hairs on them.  Cross-hairs means you SHOOT what is in them.

Kerry used a common metaphor “Kill two birds with one stone” that EVERYONE in the English speaking world understands means achieve to tasks with one effort.  Kerry merely mangled the metaphor to say he should have won the White House.

But with your constant twisting of facts beyond rational analysis you are no more than a right wing troll.  I’m done. You have nothing to say I’m willing to pay attention to now.  You are as careless of facts and analysis as Ann Coulter-geist, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and Bill O’Reilly.  You do nothing but parrot their talking points.

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By Go Right Young Man, April 17, 2010 at 9:48 pm Link to this comment

ITW,

Ahhh I see.  So John Kerry was merely talking about the outcome of a past election.  Along the lines of Sarah Palin talking about “targeting” candidates of future elections of the House and Senate.  Wow!  You’re right.  Seems harmless after-all.  Thank you for clearing that up.

It took you a good bit of time to reach that conclusion.  Perhaps you’ll stop the fear-mongering by adding the context of fear of Ms. Palin?  Or, as you would put it, dim-witted nit-picking.

And how exactly have Tea Party protesters displayed the violence you keep going on about?  Absent any evidence of violence is this too simply more dim-witted nit-picking with the added spice if race-bating?  Nice if you could clear that up while we’re at it.

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By Inherit The Wind, April 17, 2010 at 8:58 pm Link to this comment

So…I finally broke down and dug up Kerry’s supposed “threat”.  You decide if he is threatening President Bush’s life or saying it would have been more effective if he had won in 2004.  From Newsbusters:

Kerry said that he took his wife to a lovely retreat in Vermont. Begin transcript:

Maher: You could have went to New Hampshire and killed two birds with one stone.

Kerry:  Or, I could have gone to 1600 Pennsylvania and killed the real bird with one stone.

Maher:  Well, speaking of that, speaking of that, do you run into a lot of people these days who are considering how things have gone with the bloopers and practical jokes the past few years have a lot of buyer’s remorse about how they voted in 2004?

Kerry: Uh, I actually do. I run into a lot of people. Most people as a matter of fact, except for Donald Rumsfeld. And Cheney.
**************************************************

GRYM, you and your fellow right-wingers are nothing but a bunch of lying asses.  There’s no way ANY rational person could construe this as a threat since “Kill two birds with one stone” NEVER means actually killing anything!  The “real bird” meant winning the White House.

Also, it’s clear Maher fully understood that Kerry meant he should have won in 2004, and had NOTHING to do with harming George W. Bush.

That’s some really dim-witted nit-picking from a guy who can’t even spell “honor” correctly.

If this is what you call “evidence” than I can no more, in good conscience, debate with you.

You, sir, are the one with no “honer”, no sense of “honer”, and no intention to act honorably.  You use the word “honor” to SOLELY mean “to agree with me or acquiesce to my arguments, whether they are strong or weak”.  That’s not what “honor” means.

You are nothing but a right-wing propaganda troll.

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By Go Right Young Man, April 17, 2010 at 7:21 pm Link to this comment

ofersince72,

I have never advocated ending or stopping
Welfare.  I passionately believe in the
intentions.  I simply believe there are many
better ways of going about it.  More people
could be helped and at a lower price.  And when
I refer to price I do not mean monetary costs.

So that it is clear: I believe in “Welfare”. 
And I have no problem with the amount of money
spent on Welfare.  I was once on the receiving
end of Welfare.

-

ITW could use your help in finding a video and/or transcript.

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By ofersince72, April 17, 2010 at 5:56 pm Link to this comment

Go_Right_Young_Man

  I hope,  when you were talking about stopping welfare,
you meant corporate welfare also. Corporate welfare is
a bigger drain on the taxpayer than social secuity
welfare ever was or is.

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By Go Right Young Man, April 17, 2010 at 2:39 pm Link to this comment

It still amazes me, no matter how many times I witness it myself, how we all can remain so steadfast with what we think we know.  I admit I am guilty of the same human behavior.  No doubt about it.

Perception is a powerful phenomena.  On this thread alone we see many who remain adamant that “The Tea Baggers” are violent - A True Threat To The Nation - when no one has been unable to produce even a single example of it.  Yet, all the while, I can cite several examples of violence against them and others of “like mind”.  Much of the violence severe.

And still there are those, believe it or not, who remain steadfast.

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