MarthaA:
I couldn’t agree with you more.
Unfortunately, I’m afraid if u do some further research on even folks like Howard Dean, you will find a lot of corporatist money and influence at his roots as well.
Sad, very sad.
The entire medical/drug empire is just as corrupt
as the oil, MSM and banking corporist empires;  They have their deadly collusive tentacles around everything.
I do admire Howard Dean for his courage though:
shortly before the media threw him under the bus,
He was on MSM stating one of the first things he’d
do as president was to bust it up.

archivesDave, July 19 at 3:48 pm,

If the people en masse ever get riled enough to make democracy for all in our country come to pass,  these Rothchilds and all their power and money will mean nothing. 

When a democratic leader decides to rally the populace base on a regular basis, and rely on the populace base for support, there will be change for the populace in the United States, but as long as the democratic leaders choose to represent and rely only on the Professional Middle Class and corporations, there will never be change for the populace base of democracy.

The last leader the populace base had was Governor Howard Dean, who is now with Democracy For America and, perhaps, he will return.

M Henri Day:
If you truly study in depth the history of the Rothschilds and their ilk along with the writings of
Manly Hall, I think you will come to see as I have,
just how powerful they are and how their tentacles
are all over most every major government and Corporatist entity. 
Their philosophy is just as Stalin’s: “Two steps forward and one step back”.  They don’t mind losing
several skirmishes or battles but they believe the ultimate war is already won, even at a possible expense of another world war which they could very
well incite. They thrive on chaos.. always have.  Ordo ab Chao: Hegel was absolutely correct.

ArchiveDave, my tip would be to be extremely careful in interpreting anything Zbigniew Kazimierz Brzezi?ski has to say - his dedication to the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth is not immediately obvious to anyone who has followed this Cold Warrior’s career. My impression is that behind the aggressivity that so characterises US foreign policy today lies a sinking sensation that they are losing it, both economically and socially, and thus must depend even more than previously on the one alternative in which they feel (hope ?) that their dominance can be maintained - the military. But at least some of these people must be worried about the whether the United States is still capable of bearing the costs of this bloated military machine - a million million (10^12) USD annually, more than the rest of the world - including the Chinese ! - combined….

With regard to my «last» - hopefully only my «latest» statement ! - I was referring to the coup d’état carried out by elements of the Chilean armed forces on 11 September 1973….

Henri

M Henri Day:
Hey thanx so much for that link….BINGO, that illuminates things even more. Looks like they will be coming after MANY clips on youtube so we best be doing our research while we can!  I just wonder how long it will be before they start interfering with blogs like these.
On the other hand, if we trust the words of folks like Brzezinski, it may be awhile since they think
it’s now a ‘done deal’....the battle’s over and ‘they’ won. 
But please elaborate on your last statement.

ArchiveDave, if by «home», you mean, as I presume you do, the United States, I quite agree with you - one good example of the sort of state censorship that occurs in that country is described in this TorrentFreak article (http://preview.tinyurl.com/2efk8sb ). As to «manufactured emergencies», there are no few people who strongly suspect that a more recent version of der Reichstagsbrand took place in the United States on the 28th anniversary of the US-authorised golpe carried out by Augusto José Ramón Pinochet Ugarte et consortes....

Henri

Henri:
It might be wise to do some further investigation on the mounting events re internet censorship right here at home:
http://www.elliottwave.com/freeupdates/archives/2010/07/13/-Kill-Switch—Engage.aspx

And who’s to say this ‘emergency’ could not be contrived as per when Hitler torched the Reich stag
and blamed it on the Communists.

Well, Huck, as Tom could certainly tell you, Gospodin Kuskov is in error when he implies that Google first chose to censor searches made via its eponymous search engine when it decided to do so on google.cn. It does so as well in France and Germany, and in India, Thailand, and Turkey, as noted back in January by Forbes’ Andy Greenberg (http://preview.tinyurl.com/y986xfn ). Thus the flap between the Chinese authorities and Google would seem to have less to do with the visceral reactions of Sergey Brin than with careful calculations on the part of cooler heads as to the benefits and costs of carefully coordinating its publication of the so-called «decision to leave China» - which it wasn’t - with the US State Department. Google - of whose products, let me add, I must confess myself an enthusiastic user - is facing sensitive regulatory decisions and will face many more in the future - in circumstances like these, a little added cachet in Washington never hurts….

Henri

Seems like the author of this text was quite right. No changes at the Eastern front, heh?

M Henri Day, July 12 at 6:19 am,

If only the populace could learn exactly what political Conservatism is, surely they wouldn’t vote for Conservatives, but the Right-Wing’s Conservatives are so sure of their inculcation of the populace that they just outright say they are Conservative Republicans and are assured that it doesn’t matter to the populace, even though that means that they are going to try to get rid of unemployment, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, sell the bridges, roads and ports in our country to other countries, get even more heavily into outsourcing jobs away from the populace, and borrow even more money to supposedly lower taxes; it doesn’t matter that the populace will be in debt and be forced to work for slave wages all their days, as this is what Conservatism does….. and all the populace says, “Yeah!”  And it is not funny, although the FOX News Network thinks it is, because they are doing it —————- the populace must be educated against destroying themselves from Right-Wing political inculcation in this manner.

It is sad that renters, home mortgage payers, auto mortgage payers, Social Security participants, waitresses, auto mechanics, Medicare participants,  Medicaid participants, the nearly destitute and the destitute of the American populace think they are Conservative Republicans and will argue as if they had a leg to stand on, because of all the conservative political inculcation in the churches and in the media—they must vote with God. 

As long as the American populace think that there is social help for the populace from the autocratic Conservative side of the spectrum, and that God is standing with the Right side of the spectrum, they are selling themselves out to be outsourced, sidelined and marginalized.  It is imperative to somehow break the populace’s conservative mindset rut of destruction inculcated by the Glenn Beck Type Conservative Revolution that continues and has continued for the past 30 years.  In order for there to ever be a democratic revolution against the Conservative Revolution, somehow the inculcated conservative mindset within the liberal populace must be broken, we can’t have all these poor people thinking they are Conservatives and ever have anything close to democracy for the populace.

Alas, MarthA, it’s not merely a matter of attempting to hold on to what is, but rather of fighting to restore what was - in the case of US conservatives, to the manner in which that country was governed before Franklin Delano Roosevelt assumed office on 4 March 1933, or indeed, to that obtaining prior to the passage of the 16th Amendment in 1913, which allowed a federal income tax to be levied. Some would go so far as to say that the conservatives seek to return to the good old days prior to the Emancipation Proclamation and the 14th Amendment, but I regard that as a canard….

Henri

We, the American Populace, must be about learning the difference between Conservatism and Liberal innovation which enfolds in Ralph Waldo Emerson’s, “The Conservative”:
http://www.emersoncentral.com/conservative.htm

“The two parties which divide the state, the party of Conservatism and that of Innovation, are very old, and have disputed the possession of the world ever since it was made. This quarrel is the subject of civil history. The conservative party established the reverend hierarchies and monarchies of the most ancient world. The battle of patrician and plebeian, of parent state and colony, of old usage and accommodation to new facts, of the rich and the poor, reappears in all countries and times. The war rages not only in battle-fields, in national councils, and ecclesiastical synods, but agitates every man’s bosom with opposing advantages every hour. On rolls the old world meantime, and now one, now the other gets the day, and still the fight renews itself as if for the first time, under new names and hot personalities.”

“It is the primal antagonism, the appearance in trifles of the two poles of nature.”

“There is always a certain meanness in the argument of conservatism, joined with a certain superiority in its fact. It affirms because it holds. Its fingers clutch the fact, and it will not open its eyes to see a better fact. The castle, which conservatism is set to defend, is the actual state of things, good and bad. The project of innovation is the best possible state of things. Of course, conservatism always has the worst of the argument, is always apologizing, pleading a necessity, pleading that to change would be to deteriorate; it must saddle itself with the mountainous load of the violence and vice of society, must deny the possibility of good, deny ideas, and suspect and stone the prophet; whilst innovation is always in the right, triumphant, attacking, and sure of final success. Conservatism stands on man’s confessed limitations; reform on his indisputable infinitude; conservatism on circumstance; liberalism on power; one goes to make an adroit member of the social frame; the other to postpone all things to the man himself; conservatism is debonnair and social; reform is individual and imperious. We are reformers in spring and summer; in autumn and winter, we stand by the old; reformers in the morning, conservers at night. Reform is affirmative, conservatism negative; conservatism goes for comfort, reform for truth. Conservatism is more candid to behold another’s worth; reform more disposed to maintain and increase its own. Conservatism makes no poetry, breathes no prayer, has no invention; it is all memory. Reform has no gratitude, no prudence, no husbandry. It makes a great difference to your figure and to your thought, whether your foot is advancing or receding. Conservatism never puts the foot forward; in the hour when it does that, it is not establishment, but reform. Conservatism tends to universal seeming and treachery, believes in a negative fate; believes that men’s temper governs them; that for me, it avails not to trust in principles; they will fail me; I must bend a little; it distrusts nature; it thinks there is a general law without a particular application, — law for all that does not include any one. Reform in its antagonism inclines to asinine resistance, to kick with hoofs; it runs to egotism and bloated self-conceit; it runs to a bodiless pretension, to unnatural refining and elevation, which ends in hypocrisy and sensual reaction.”

“And so whilst we do not go beyond general statements, it may be safely affirmed of these two metaphysical antagonists, that each is a good half, but an impossible whole.”

Continue reading at the following website:
http://www.emersoncentral.com/conservative.htm

??????

??????????

????, ???, ???????!!!

Robert Scheer, ???

m [i’m even greener than lee teng hui] turton
* ....... the mic did not manufacture the MASSIVE AND TOTALLY UNNECESSARY EXPANSION OF CHINA’S MILITARY—**

demian
so u have nothing to backup ur screed
and u arent man enough to apologise
never mind, child, u will grow up one day.

just to set the record straight
i called mt, not u, a hypocrite alright
but never a neocon
yet here he is sounding like one of the most notorious of the
all,http://tinyurl.com/64e9qb

u just gotta love “progressive” like this, mt isnt bothered one bit, that his tax monies is supporting the world’s largest mic , but he is pissed by china’s
MASSIVE AND TOTALLY UNNECESSARY EXPANSION OF CHINA’S mILITARY

in a past encounter in the “peking duck” , mt declared that “the chinese navy isnt the only game in town”, see, this “progressive peacenik” was cheering for his mighty usn to challenge china in its own backyard, he seem to think that tw straits and the south china sea etc should be the usn’s private pond. some “peacenik” eh ?
btw i had become persona non grata in the “peking duck” since then.

may be u’ve got something there about the neocon biz after all demian
u know,
when one is walking like a duck and quacking like a duck…..........

Hmmmm, I don’t agree with everything Demian808 said, and name calling is not necessary here and does detract from one’s argument, but I agree that denk does seem to be quite the ideologue. I would recommend that he learns to see things in terms other than just black and white.

American government=all bad?

Chinese government=all good?

Give me a break!

no i shall not let that brag demian get away with his craps and impertinance

kiddie
show us the offending paras to support ur accusations
that

**i called u an imperialist

**a neocon and hypocrite

i claimed that
**China can claim Taiwan as part of its territory based the fact that it was in the past part of its imperialist holdings. **

or else apologise like a man
are u up to the challenge kid ?

By Demian808,
**Denk, you are even more clueless [sic] than I had first thought. In fact I pity you. You would do your readers a service**

kid
u should do us a favor to keep this moniker of yours
so that next time we wont be wasting time with u.

**imbeciles like you really do not make the world a better place.**

such a sore loser
buahahahahaha

«Henri, if the islands are unhabited then what really is the point of claiming them as your own?» And what then, Demian808, is the point of asking whether the residents «want to be part of Taiwan, China or Japan» - or does that question merely confirm your lack of knowledge of the matter you pretend to discuss ? The governments of China, Japan, and Taiwan all have found sufficient reason to claim these rocks, something not at all unusual in the annals of international affairs - another East Asian example is the dispute over the Dokdo/Takeshima islands (according to Wikipedia, inhabitated by a Korean octopus fisherman and his wife) between South Korea and Japan….

But we wander from the subject of Robert Scheer’s article, which I interpret to be the fact that East Asians have here shown themselves capable of resolving their own disputes, without the good offices of the United States. Even though his point is well taken, I find Mr Scheer a bit premature in celebrating the end of the Cold War - that, perhaps, we can do when a Treaty of Peace between the participants on both sides in what in North America and Europe is termed the Korean War is signed to replace an armistice agreement that has been in effect for 57 years. Given that no US administration seems to have had such a peace treaty on its agenda, one can wonder if any of them has really wished to put P to the Cold War (which, of course, in Korea and numerous other places, did become rather «hot», indeed !), or whether those whose hands manoeuvre the levers of that country’s foreign policy still find it to their advantage and profit to have such an unresolved conflict simmering….

Henri

Denk, you are even more clueless than I had first thought. In fact I pity you. You would do your readers a service by paraphrasing and/or quoting from the articles you beg Micheal Turton to read, rather than saying something like, “X is true, and Y agrees. Read this link. Now that settles it.” You see a sound argument is predicated on more than few articles that you cherry-pick from the internet.

Besides, just look at your own gibberish:

congrats kid
u’ve just scored 3 own goals
coz i dont remeber saying anything to that effect
unless coz u can show me the offending paras

You sure hopped on the brain train and rode it all the way stupid town with that one.

Regardless, I have heard everything you’ve said before, and might I add, a lot more poignantly, In fact you’re starting to bore me. You see you are apparently nothing more than an ideologue; although an ideologue, like a stopped clock, might give the correct time twice a day, for the remainder of the day, as you wander about in your own mythology, persist in your idiocy, babble in your unreality, wallow in your madness, know that imbeciles like you really do not make the world a better place.

Good night, good luck, and good riddance.

demian
**Henri, if the islands are unhabited then what really is the point of claiming them as your own? Is it a matter of pride? For natural resources? **

it was supposed to be a resource treasure trove
[or perhaps psyops by the us [usual suspects] to stir up a sino japan conflict]
the japanese had constructed a lighthouse and other facilities there to effect a fait accompli, they also ring it with patrol boats.
did u read the link about them sinking a tw fishing boat ?
the japanese are remilitarising fast , courtesy of…..you guess it.
http://tinyurl.com/292kdc2
http://tinyurl.com/685g3w

** Can no country just leave something be? Denk, to respond in advance to any future comment you may have: “Blahblahblah.”**

not if u are talking sense

**Do you think that somehow that the United States suddenly decided to completely disarm, that their would hence forth the world would live in perpetual peace.**

for a start,
the hr abuses in the world would drop by at least 90%
did u read that ai report 1996 i posted earlier

and we wont be seeing a war every other day
++Pick almost any date on the calendar and it’ll turn out that the US either started a war, ended a war, perpetrated a massacre or sent its UN ambassador into the Security Council to declare to issue an ultimatum++
http://tinyurl.com/2faq5bn
dont belittle my “templates” demian
one link is worth a thousand words
since i could never be as eloquent as these writers, might as well let them say it?
it gives u an instant picture of what i’m talking about no ?

chomsky once said something to this effect
++there used to be two super powers [he actually used the word gangsters in fact, ] in the world, there was a kind of balance and check and the world was in relatively stability.
now that one is kaput, there’s on one to check the remaining super power [he said gangster ], hence its running amok like a pit bull in china shop without restraint++
[this is the gist of it, not his exact word , but i sure remember the “gangster” part coz it made me laugh, buahahahahaha]
in deference to ur admonition, i provide no link for this…....i couldnt find it !!

** The United States did not invent war, colonialism, exploitation, etc. Neither did it originate in the West.**

u betcha, more, much more…..
listen to the authoriy on this subject demian
http://tinyurl.com/ytb86z

**The Chinese are not inherently any more peaceful than Americans, and from examining their history you must admit that they are well acquainted with war. **

defensive wars kid,
do u know why they bulit the great wall…..to check the marauding invaders.

**And even now as they build their “peaceful” military, it is not for the sole purpose of taking Taiwan by force. You do realize by the way that taiwan is a democracy and a DPP politician could take power; so then China would aim her “peaceful” missles at Taiwan. And what if they fired some, and killed innocent civilians, would that be OK with you? I suppose somehow that would be the United State’s fault as well.**

u got it,
see, there was not “tw crisis” prior to the us meddling,
++Beijing says it will only use force against Taiwan if Taipei seeks independence. U.S. military and other moves to show support for Taiwan encourage those in Taiwan who seek independence. That seems a strange way to help defend Taiwan.++
http://tinyurl.com/3d5xtl

**Further, the Chinese government is not inherently any more peaceful than the United States governments.**

compared to amerikka, i’d say china has almost a clean slate so far

** They normally reserve the use of violence for their own people.**

no doubt u have tam in mind,
may be this’ll clear up some of the fog
http://tinyurl.com/28s8h4p
btw clark gives a more accurate view of the sino japan disputes
whereas m [bs] turton painted a completly onesided pic of chinese aggression against poor little japan [sic]
does this qualify him as a chinese hater ?

demian
**OK, Mr. Maturity, “blahblahblah right back. (BTW, is “buaahahahaha” really a mark of maturity or indicative of someone who is not playing with a full deck.) **

sometimes i feel like using sopsop sopsop,
see, the hypocrisy and hubris of these anglo “progressive” [mt and his ilks] often make me wonder whether to laugh or cry

** i.e. your argumentation is naïve and simplistic, superficial; rather than constructing a coherent argument of you own, you appeal to the “authority” of someone who has evidently done your thinking for you.**

in case u havent noticed, if u take out all the links, it doesnt affect my argument one bit
its there to back up my assertions, thats called credibility kid, which is sorely lacking in mt’s wild screed against china.

**  Hence, your ceaseless assault of “links” which may or may not be credible sources. **

ah, how about backing up ur accusation ?
mind pointing out the offensive one, i’m all ears

**Also, what is your fixation with Micheal Turton? **

thats easy,
i just cant stand hypocrites, the us/uk seem to have more than their fair share of this specie

**Also, your use of the term “self-hating yank” does not really apply here.  I protested the Iraq War, the Afghanistan War, and defense contractors on the defense contractors on the campus.**

well i suppose i’d have to take ur words for it then

** To think that I, because I support the self-determination of Taiwan to decide their own future, I am somehow in the category of an imperialist,**

huh ?

**I will sum up so far what seems to be your two basic arguments, or as least salvage something from the trainwreck that you call your “points:”

1)  Supporting Taiwanese independence means you’re a neo-con, and a hypocrite. (Even when Taiwan is your home?)  **

??

**2)  China can claim Taiwan as part of its territory based the fact that it was in the past part of its imperialist holdings. **

???

congrats kid
u’ve just scored 3 own goals
coz i dont remeber saying anything to that effect
unless coz u can show me the offending paras
i’m not holding my breath
buahahahahahaha

(This post is a continuation of my previous one. Pleasse see below.)

Denk, Henri, I am no longer addressing you two specifically, but will continue my case rather so that the general public might actually dig a little deeper, and understand that the significance of the EFCA, and the situation between Taiwan and China is far more complex than what Mr. Scheer suggests.

I will sum up my case thusly: (For further elaboration on any of these points, please see my previous posts below.)

1) Basing current territorial claims on previous imperialist ventures, while not considering the opinion of the people currently living in the disputed location, is nothing more than a continuation of imperialism and is hence not inherently “peaceful.”

2) Trying to settle the dispute through FTAs made by elites is also indicative of neo-colonialism. There is nothing about economic interdependence that ensures lasting peace. Especially, when such FTAs are made without transparency and are accompanied by an assault of government propaganda, and leave many other contentious matters unaddressed.

3) Thinking about Taiwan’s history solely in terms of Chinese history does not do justice to the achievements of Taiwan’s people who have, at least temporarily, thrown off the shackles of Chinese colonialism to establish a democracy of their own. 

Good night, and good luck.

Henri, if the islands are unhabited then what really is the point of claiming them as your own? Is it a matter of pride? For natural resources?  Can no country just leave something be? Denk, to respond in advance to any future comment you may have: “Blahblahblah.”

To further address the issue of American imperialism in the current context of the Taiwan/China debate, and actually addressing again Mr. Scheer’s article:

Do you think that somehow that the United States suddenly decided to completely disarm, that their would hence forth the world would live in perpetual peace. The United States did not invent war, colonialism, exploitation, etc. Neither did it originate in the West. That should be obvious, but for some reason you seem to need a reminder.

The Chinese are not inherently any more peaceful than Americans, and from examining their history you must admit that they are well acquainted with war. And even now as they build their “peaceful” military, it is not for the sole purpose of taking Taiwan by force. You do realize by the way that Taiwan is a democracy and a DPP politician could take power; so then China would aim her “peaceful” missles at Taiwan. And what if they fired some, and killed innocent civilians, would that be OK with you? I suppose somehow that would be the United State’s fault as well.

Further, the Chinese government is not inherently any more peaceful than the United States governments. They normally reserve the use of violence for their own people. But that could change, and for reasons other than Taiwan. The follwing article, taken from the Chinese press, addresses that issue:

The Chinese Army Needs
to Fight the “Global War”

“Facing the global battlefield, the Chinese army should shift from fighting regional wars to “global wars”. There is also a need for defending China’s interests overseas. Therefore, the Chinese army should welcome the arrival of the “global battlefield.” Next, the Chinese army should participate more in international military affairs — immerse itself in it. Again, the Chinese military should make clear its role in the global battlefield. Finally, it should be well prepared for all sorts of challenges brought by it. Along with the expansion of overseas interests, the Chinese army should have the ability to protect and maintain our country’s national interests.”

http://watchingamerica.com/News/59131/the-chinese-army-needs-to-fight-the-“global-war”/

Sounds like business as usual to me- a country using military might to protect its “overseas interests.” But why would it be business as usual? It turns out that people the world over really aren’t as different as everyone thinks. They share a common nature, which unfortunately includes the drives for greed, exploitation, and lust for power. The combination of these often leads to war. When the time comes, the Chinese government will dream up a reason for war via the usual route of propaganda, just as the US does. (And just as in the US, their are hawks in China arguing for an invasion.) And the war may not in fact be over Taiwan, but over natural resources either in Africa or the Middle East. There is no reason to believe that if the US wasn’t the villain, another country wouldn’t step in to take its place.

Finally, economic inter-dependence does not necessarily lead to a lasting peace.  Even on this count, there is no reason to assume that the ECFA will ultimately make the contentious Taiwan issue just disappear, as so many would like. Furthermore, the fact that the KMT still claims sovereignty over all of China (as the Republic of China) should be considered as well. The two sides have yet to directly address this issue. Lets see how peaceful things remain then.

«What people now live on the Senkaku/Diaoyutai islands? Do they want to be part of Taiwan, China or Japan?  If given the option, would they prefer to become independent?» My understanding, which may not be accurate, is that the islands of the archipelago are uninhabited. But perhaps we can commission Demian808 to carry out a poll, as he seems to pride himself on «getting out of the house» ?...

Henri

(Continued from previous post):

What people now live on the Senkaku/Diaoyutai islands? Do they want to be part of Taiwan, China or Japan?  If given the option, would they prefer to become independent?  You never ask these questions as real people become lost in banter about this historian said this and that historian said that and this government say’s so and so…  Such talk is part and parcel to an imperialist mindset and does nothing to advance world peace.  You support China’s past imperialism while raving against the US’s.  That sir, makes you the hypocrite.

My my main point, which is repeated a previous post of mine, is this: (evidently you don’t know how to respond to it, or you haven’t read it)

American Imperialism has little to do with the concerns of a significant portion of Taiwanese, which I have repeatedly tried to bring attention to, who just want to live their lives as freely as you or I do. If that endangers world peace, then something is very wrong in the world indeed, and on this point it is not the fault of the US Imperialism.

Henri, do you get out of the house much?  But your right, perhaps using “love-affair” was inappropriate. “Douche-fest” is probably more accurate.  And if you think I have not addressed anything relevent, than you clearly did not read my previous post.

Denk,

OK, Mr. Maturity, “blahblahblah right back. (BTW, is “buaahahahaha” really a mark of maturity or indicative of someone who is not playing with a full deck.)  i.e. your argumentation is naïve and simplistic, superficial; rather than constructing a coherent argument of you own, you appeal to the “authority” of someone who has evidently done your thinking for you.  Hence, your ceaseless assault of “links” which may or may not be credible sources. 

Also, what is your fixation with Micheal Turton?  You sound like Glenn Beck as he tirelessly attacks Van Jones, or Keith Olbermann as he vented daily against Bill O’Reilly.  The result is really not anything worthy of serious commentary.  Also, your use of the term “self-hating yank” does not really apply here.  I protested the Iraq War, the Afghanistan War, and defense contractors on the defense contractors on the campus.  To think that I, because I support the self-determination of Taiwan to decide their own future, I am somehow in the category of an imperialist, shows just how little thought you’ve given to this matter. 

I will sum up so far what seems to be your two basic arguments, or as least salvage something from the trainwreck that you call your “points:”

1)  Supporting Taiwanese independence means you’re a neo-con, and a hypocrite. (Even when Taiwan is your home?)  Can you tell the difference between a government of a country and the citizenry of country? Apparently not. You would do well to not hold people accountable for actions done by a government that they may very well oppose.

2)  China can claim Taiwan as part of its territory based the fact that it was in the past part of its imperialist holdings.  Such arguments only perpetuate an imperialist mindset, and I have already discussed the futility of such an argument, but will address it again, because you seem to be a slow learner. The following thought experiment should make things a little more concrete:

China invades Guam, and takes control of it from the United States in order to create a buffer between China’s sphere of influence and the United States. Having annexed Guam as an imperial possession, they for decades exert heaving handed rule in order to ensure a “harmonious society.”  However, the miraculous happens: the people of Guam are able to expel their Chinese conquerors and establish home rule, creating what is essentially an independent state; however, very few countries will recognize it as such, including the United States, which still claims Guam as part of its territory. Eventually, the United States mounts an offensive to take back its renegade territory, and after a brief but bloody battle, succeeds in doing so. 

In this case, do you think I would support independence for Guam?  Absolutely. If Micheal Turton were to claim the US’s invasion was justified then he would then be a hypocrite. If he approved of the US invasion of Vietnam or Iraq, then he might be a hypocrite.  Otherwise, an argument claiming that he is a hypocrite holds no water.

If someone in the US were to justify taking Guam because it was “historically” part of the United States I would consider it nonsense as well.  Need I remind you that Hitler justified his invasion of Poland by arguing that the city of Danzig was historically part of Germany. Such arguments are the stuff of tyrants.

Alas, Demian808 you chose to address neither of the points - your use of argumenta ad hominem and your somewhat surprising choice of a starting point for Taiwanese history - I raised in my last message. But perhaps such an unwillingness and/or inability to address the issues at hand is to be expected of your - to use the terminology you seem to favour - ilk ?...

Henri

Henri, 

Claiming that Taiwan is part of China (which is what your ilk inevitably want to do) based on the latter’s imperialist ventures opens a Pandora’s box whereby any country can lay claim to a territory simply because it was once their’s.  For example, what if Turkey decides to claim Greece, Hungary, Egypt, etc, because they where once part of the Ottoman Empire. What if Russia decided that it wanted to restore its former empire?

If you wish to make the claim that, as the Chinese government seems to do, “Once a part of China, always a part of China,” then perhaps you would like to also advocate for such a position as, “Once a part of Japan, always a part of Japan.” (Perhaps you would like to state the case: Chinese Imperialism is good. All other’s is bad.) Ergo: Taiwan’s history as China’s imperial territory is less than relevant here.

The fact is that the Taiwanese have done what so many other occupied lands have done before: shrug off their foreign conquerers and establish home rule. Some commentators seem to equate supporting Taiwan’s independence (the elephant in the room) with support of US Imperialism; if you knew anything about Taiwan’s post-WWII history, you would realize is such equivocations are nonsense.

American Imperialism has little to do with the concerns of a significant portion of Taiwanese, which I have repeatedly tried to bring attention to, who just want to live their lives as freely as you or I do. If that endangers world peace, then something is very wrong in the world indeed, and on this point it is not the fault of the US Imperialism.

henri

damien does come off like a bit , er, immature

michael [i’m greener than chen sui bien] thurton
**Being progressive, at least for me [sic], means choosing “peace” when “peace” means things like democracy, human rights, and social and economic justice. That is not the peace we are seeing in the Taiwan Strait right now.***

while u’re bleating about this “inhuman” trade pact, [sic], guess which country is the world’s most egregious hr violator ?

“Throughout the world, on any given day, a man, woman or child is likely to be displaced, tortured, killed or ‘disappeared’, at the hands of governments or armed political groups. More often than not, the United States shares the blame.”
Amnesty International no less, 1996
http://tinyurl.com/2jw4o5
here’s a critical thinker, a true progressive like mr sheer.
but to that damien kid, its must be yet another “self hating yank” ,
buahahahahaha
[is damien’s imitation meant to be a compliment, ]

damien
**blahblahblahblah…..]**

kid,
i mention mt’s background only in passing , it has never been the main thrust of my argument,
my beef is with thurton;s hypocrisy and his copius bushit
i’m not interested in your god damned history either,
if u wanna be michael [tw spokesman] thurton’s spokesman, [sic]
try countering my points on his behalf, instead of dwelling on the irrelevance [in your own words]
buaahahahaha

Demian808, perhaps you would be advised to refrain from comments about «love affairs», and «hate», and other examples of argumenta ad hominem ; such locutions tend to impress only the author. You might also be advised, if you wish to pass as a historian of Taiwan, to begin your series of mini-lectures on the subject prior to 1945, given that the island’s history as a part of China began long before that date and not, as you imply, subsequent to the Japanese surrender in WW II….

bogi666, inveterate optimist that I am, I remain hopeful that you will be able to grasp the point of my brief comment on your posting in the event you make the effort to reread both contributions to the discussion….

Henri

Rather than address the meat and bones of the matter, that is whether Mr. Scheer’s article is accurate assessment of the significance of the ECFA, you choose to nitpick about Micheal Turton’s choice of “senkaku” over “diaoyu” and from that have tried to turn things into a discussion of American Imperialism.

Furthermore, you have failed to elaborate on what relevance it has that Micheal Turton lives in Taiwan, married a Taiwanese women, etc. Again, so what if he is? Seriously, answer what’s your point?

Above all, you remain clueless about what is actually going on in Taiwan, and about Taiwanese history, and don’t seem the slightest bit interested in actually learning anything about, but would rather continue on in your crusade against “Amerikka,” which again, if you knew anything about the current situation in Taiwan, you would see that that is irrelevant to the discussion. After all, the Evil Empire of Amerikka approves of the ECFA. So by your logic that would mean it must be a bad thing.

So until you can actually put together a well reasoned and coherent argument, I would say that it is you have the credibility problem.

Oh, yeah, and buahahahahaha!

Demian808,
**Henri and Denk,

Sorry to bust into your love affair, but perhaps you would like to take a break from trolling the internet to find new reasons to hate America or japanese,**

kid,
i quote professor Kiyoshi Inoue to debunk mt’s insinuation that china is aggressing against japan’s “senkaku island”, does that make me a japanese hater, is professor Kiyoshi Inoue a “self hating japanese” now ?

i quote good ole charlie reese , a REAL progressive who doesnt hesitate to criticise his own country’s run away imperialism, so reese must be a “self hating yank” to you, perhaps mr sheer too ?

sorry u have lost all credibility with this, may be u should also save your trolling and tw 101 lesson for michael tw expert] thurton, who doesnt seem to know his “diaoyu” from “senkaku” lol.

mt
**Being progressive, at least for me [sic], means choosing “peace” when “peace” means things like democracy, human rights, and social and economic justice. That is not the peace we are seeing in the Taiwan Strait right now.***

so m [i am a progressive]thurton went postal over a trade pact , forcrissake, which is inhuman, undemocratic and non peacful. [sic]

well mr mt

mainlanders and taiwanese are hopnopping, trading peacefully and happily , moving freeing amongst themselves china doesnt foils its troops and base onto tw,
like okinawa,
http://tinyurl.com/2aufdtd

nor kicked out old farmers from their ancestral homes in tw to make way for another military base
http://tinyurl.com/57gaqx
[there was a picture of a bloodied faced old man being pulled out from his hut by sk military police, i had shown mt before, its gone now, in any case mt and his ilks seem unmoved by such atrocities perpetrated by his own country]

nor used “shock and awe” brizkreig to overun tw
http://tinyurl.com/dxy23z
http://tinyurl.com/4n5h3h

nor carpet bomb or send killer drones over to tw to assasinate women and children
http://tinyurl.com/yhcdj8z

nor send the twnese into exile, gassed their pets to make sure they dont come back
http://tinyurl.com/6a5xo5

mr “peacenik” thurton

for a “progressive”
u seem to have your priorities completely upside down innit ..........
when was the last time, if ever,  u did something about the biggest threat to peace ?
http://tinyurl.com/4f34

Taiwanese History, Part III:

Shortly after it was built in the late 1970’s to honor Taiwan’s late dictator, Chiang Kai Shek Memorial Hall soon became the site of massive protests, an obvious contradiction to its intended use.  The large public area surrounding the memorial was dubbed Memorial Square, which also included centers for traditional Chinese culture such as the National Opera House and the National Concert Hall, all intended to express the “spirit of Chinese Culture.” In a profound example of just how much Taiwanese politics had changed, in June of 2007 the huge Chinese characters which hung above the main gate of the complex and read “Great Mean, Perfect Uprightness,” a reference to the late dictator, were replaced by the DPP led government with characters reading, “Liberty Plaza,” no doubt meant to express the spirit of Taiwanese self-determination.  The controversial move, made by then President Chen Shui-bian, is an example of a statement many Taiwanese never thought they would see and was made possible only by the activism of past struggles.

As previously mentioned, since the KMT returned to power, concessions have been made by the government that many Taiwanese believe could compromise their national integrity. These worries came to a boil in November of 2008 after a visit by Chen Yunlin, the first high-level visit by a Chinese representative since 1945. After the harsh police crackdown on the protests which accompanied Yunlin’s visit, a student movement called the Wild Strawberries began in response and made three demands: an apology from President Ma Ying-jiao, the resignation of the National Police Agency General-Director, and an amendment to the Parade & Assembly law (installed shortly after the lifting of Martial Law), which would remove the stipulation requiring a permit for public protest. The student movement began in front of the Legislative Yuan, the Taiwanese “congress.” After the police expelled them from that location, the Wild Strawberries reconvened in Liberty Square, which would become their base of operations.

Taiwanese History, Part II:

Such abrogations were repeatedly revised and made more repressive, and new ones were frequently installed up until, and shortly after, the death of Chiang Kai Shek’s son, Chiang Ching Kuo, in 1988. Although Chiang junior lifted Martial Law in 1987, change did not come about overnight. With the ascendancy of Taiwan’s first native born president, Lee Teng-hui, in 1990, the pace of change would accelerate throughout the 1990’s, leading to full democratization and the first direct Presidential election, won by Lee in 1996. In 1997, Taiwan was listed as a “free country” by Freedom House, a human rights NGO based in the United States.

The reasons for this transformation are numerous and complex and include the democratic principles written into the ROC constitution by founder Sun Yet Sen, massive domestic pressure on the KMT for change, particularly from the marginalized rural and urban working classes,9 and international conditions as the KMT felt continual pressure to liberalize in order to gain favor and support from Western countries that were leaning towards closer ties with Communist China.

In addition to the preceding historical account, there are other key factors that are essential for understanding the current paradoxes and contentions that still remain in Taiwanese society and culture. First, the People’s Republic of China claims that Taiwan is part of its territory and currently has anywhere from 800 to 1000 missiles aimed at Taiwan, threatening to use them should the country formally declare independence. Second, as of May 2008, the KMT was democratically elected back into power after eight years of rule by the Democratic Progressive Party. Ever since the party fled China to establish itself in Taiwan and up until Lee Teng-hui took power, the KMT maintained that the ROC was the sole legitimate China, and it was their full intent to take back the “mainland” by force.  Lee however took up the position of “Two Chinas,” or in other words, two separate countries across the Taiwan Strait, and the DPP viewed Taiwan as a country completely distinct from China; the current KMT, led by President Ma Ying-jiao, has re-adopted the “One China” orthodoxy as its official policy and has nebulously suggested that the ROC is still the legitimate China; they have also established a cozy relationship with the CCP, and have rapidly, and rather surreptitiously, increased economic ties with China, a situation that has many Taiwanese worried about an impending “sell-out,” a situation which has sparked numerous protests. As in the past, the protests often gathered in the public area in front of Chiang Kai Shek Memorial Hall (also referred to as Taiwan Democracy Memorial Hall).

Henri and Denk,

Sorry to bust into your love affair, but perhaps you would like to take a break from trolling the internet to find new reasons to hate America or Japanese, and actually learn something about the history of Taiwan (Mr. Scheer, you might as well join them as well):

Part I:

After the end of WWII, as part of the Japanese Instrument of Surrender, Taiwan was relinquished from Japanese colonial rule and placed under Chinese rule. China was then the Republic of China and ruled by the KMT, headed by Chiang Kai Shek. In 1945, as nearly 12,000 troops arrived in Taiwan, the KMT were warmly greeted by Taiwanese hopeful that KMT rule would be better than Japanese rule. They were to be sorely disappointed.  Just over two years later, the 228 Massacre occurred. Twenty to thirty thousand Taiwanese died in an uprising that was instigated by government corruption.6 This was to be a pivotal event in the formation of a Taiwanese narrative of unfolding as they came to see themselves as a group oppressed by the KMT, who were often viewed as foreign conquerors in the same way as the Japanese. 

Also during that time the Chinese Civil War was being waged between the KMT and the Chinese Communist Party (CCP). As it became increasingly clear that Chiang Kai Shek was going to lose the war, he prepared Taiwan for his inevitable retreat by declaring Martial Law on May 20 of 1949—the official premise being that it was necessary in order to curtail the threat of Communism, a threat that would be invoked repeatedly to justify other harsh measures. On December 7, 1949, the KMT retreated to Taiwan, along with 600,000 troops and over a million Chinese as the KMT central government set itself up in Taipei, Taiwan’s largest city. With the arrival of the KMT came the White Terror, a period of extreme repression that brought with it a series of abrogations that had cultural as well as political consequences.

Among the abrogations put in place were a ban on private radio stations, which lasted until the early 1990’s; a ban on men’s “strange apparel,” which were fashions showing relatively new styles or evidence of individualism; a ban on overseas tourism and visits to overseas relatives; compulsory registration of radio sets and a monthly charge of 10 New Taiwan Dollars for the privilege of owning a radio; a ban on newspapers not officially sanctioned by the state (lasted until January 1, 1988); a ban on middle school student’s long hair for both men and women; a “General Inspection of School Books,” which required elementary schools to inspect all books for evidence of opposition to state policy or the encouragement of class struggle; a ban on Taiwanese history being taught (only Chinese history was to be taught); a ban on local languages, Hoklo (Taiwanese), Hakka, and Aboriginal tongues; and a ban on Taiwanese folk songs and popular songs inclined to social realism.

LOCAL HERO: I don’t see the VOTE as the problem. It’s corrupt party control of the electoral process that narrrows debate, dialogue and candidate choice. VOTERS can force political turnover, it’s betrayal by an unprincipled leadership that holds us in bondage.

      It’s dark out. You can get politically involved and VOTE, or start shooting. Going home in disgust and doing nothing is a disappearing option.

      I’ve enjoyed this thread. Lots of stuff I wasn’t aware of and very little kneejerk or squabble. My only insight into China is a gut belief that they actually look forward 50 to 100 years and plan a future. This is called vision and, lack thereof in American leadership, is the root cause of the evils we face today.

hello henri

this is what i call a REAL progressive….
kiyoshi inoue the japanese historian condemning his country’s renewed imperialism…..

++Predicated on the Japanese people’s opposition to militarism, one should reject the name Senkaku Islands, which was adopted by Japanese militarists after seizing them from China. One should use the only correct historical name, Tiaoyu (Diaoyutai) Island.
—Kiyoshi Inoue, Japanese historian ++
http://tinyurl.com/24hxy8c

as for michael [mr tw] thurton, its rather revealing that he used the japanese name “senkako” island , looks like here’s a “progressive” who is rooting for the imperialists over HIS [sic] own tw buahahahahaha
http://tinyurl.com/32xtc2s

sorry for the late reply,
just reach home
i’ll just do some light browsing and call it a day
good nite
see u tomorrow [barring unforseen circumstances…....]

Denk, your comments don’t actually have any relevance here. If you can prove that just because someone moves to another country, lives there, and has a family therer, etc, they are somehow oddly disqualified from speaking about it. I’m American and lived in Taiwan for two years, but live in New York now. So what of it?

Since Micheal Turton has lived in Taiwan, has obviously studied its history, has been following its current events, and understand the nuances of the political situation there. If anything he is more than qualified to speak about the matter, which Scheer is apparently not for he wrote a poorly thought out and misinformed article.

So Denk, please tell us about your nationality, etc, so that we might use it against you, and so that we might ask you, “How does it feel?”

Thanks, denk ! I suspected that the situation was much as you described it, but couldn’t be certain. And thanks as well for your comments on what is meant by «peace» ! Major powers have a tendency to interpret their obligations under the UNO charter to «save succeeding generations from the scourge of war» rather freely, but it should be remembered that China has not engaged in a foreign war since Deng Xiaopeng’s ill-conceived adventure in Vietnam in 1979, which lasted all of a month. Perhaps the US has something to learn ?...

Henri

mt
**Being progressive, at least for me [sic], means choosing “peace” when “peace” means things like democracy, human rights, and social and economic justice. That is not the peace we are seeing in the Taiwan Strait right now.***

ah, my old friend mt, the yank who went to tw, got himself a cushy teaching job, married a local beauty and hey presto, became overnite the the self appointed spokesman for taiwanese. [sic]

here michael [china can have tw over my dead body] thurton is pissed off by the non peaceful [sic] trade pact between the mainland and tw, while his own country [amerikka] has been going bomb and missile crazy for the past 60 yrs, looks like u’re barking up the wrong tree again mr peacenik ,oh i see, didnt reagon called those missiles “peacemaker “?
http://tinyurl.com/my7hl8

i’ve known mt for a long time now, just u mention tw and he’ll pop up in a flash, sometimes i wonder if this is his day job
buahahahahaha

REDHORSE & Samson, you guys sure are optimists. The rear-view window of the last two hundred years proves that voting is a lie but you guys still look ahead. I guess the fact that, by design, you’ve been enslaved for two centuries holds little reality as long as you’ve got that silly vote in your pocket.

Election voting is exactly the same as the prison warden allowing the prisoners to vote so that they think they have a say in how the prison is run. So, hang onto that vote, or, you could open your eyes, stay home & refuse to participate in the fraud.

dihey:
Sooo, you are a ‘trilateralist’ huh?
Do you go along with the CFR, WTO, and g20 as well?
As if we don’t have a enuf impetus injecting us
into the NWO.

Bogi666, before commenting on these matters, you might want to consider reading a little Chinese history. Much can be said about the relations between Taiwan and the central Chinese government, but «[a]ctually Taiwan was not a part of China until annexed by Chiang Kai Chek [sic !]» doesn’t cut the mustard….

Michael Turton, I suspect that most people on Taiwan would refer to that unihabited archipelago you mention as the «Diaoyutai» islands. As you seem to prefer the Japanese name, which would indicate that your support that country’s claim to the territory at issue, perhaps you should entitle your blog «Michael Turton’s view from Japan», rather than something so misleading as «The View from Taiwan» ? Truth in Advertising, you know….

Henri

The economic integration of Europe was started by a trade agreement between Belgium the Netherlands, and Luxembourg (BENELUX). Although all three countries are now members of the EU they still have their own governments, armies, etc. On what grounds can one argue that this pact of China and Taiwan is nothing but the start of China gobbling up Taiwan eventually? Like all pacts this one has clauses which allows one or both parties to get out.
I see this as a powerful beginning of an East-Asian economic bloc of China, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, and possibly Vietnam as a counterweight against EU and the USA. Good!

THANKS!!!—-TO THE MANY HERE THAT TOOK THIS THREAD AND PUT MEAT ON ITS’ BONES!! Let the light shine.

I’d like to know how the Google versus China affair
will finally end.

As for now, Google seems to be the only company that
actually tries to improve something in the human rights
field of China, rather than Yahoo!, MSN and the rest
that just pretend to follow the same round, but then
turn around and shake hands with Chinese authorities.
Here’s the article where the author reviews the whole
story of China-Google relationship —
http://www.win.ru/en/school/4655.phtml.

Michael Turton and Ed Harges:
Great comments guys! WELL SAID!

The unelected Chinese government looks out for China’s
national interests almost as well as our elected government
looks out for Israel’s national interests.

When was the last time the Chinese came for anyone? Anyone at all?

It’s America that’s coming—it always is.

People think that there is a war against Islam. There is no war against Islam; that just happens to be the religion of the people who live on the oil. The hegemon’s oil.

The oil must be controlled so that China can be controlled.

The war against China has already begun. Bombing will start in 5 minutes.

“How does a modern nation obtain national security?”

In an age of cheap weapons of mass destruction, militarism is NOT the answer.

Trade may not be the answer either given the ecological limits of Mother Earth. 

Is just being and living in sustainable harmony enough?  Yes it is.

I have been putting some thought into this and you can rest assure that I have
sorted everything out for us.

The U.S.A. and China will race to Algeria. The first country to get there gets 5000
Ninjas an 400 Mustang Convertibles that shoot lasers.

«American and Japanese corporations like Apple and Honda and others are already exploiting cheap Chinese labor and the Taiwanese will do the same now.» Well, yes, prole, but the Taiwanese have already been doing so for quite some time - the firm making those Apple products you mention is the Foxconn Technology Group, which is controlled by the Hon Hai Precision Industry Company, registered in Tucheng, Taiwan. But you are certainly correct in pointing out that we must know who «we» are, before we analyse how certain changes will affect «us». Still, I think Robert’s point is that the old way of doing things will no longer work, even for those who up to now have been able to make their financial and political fortunes from it….

Henri

Redhorse ... you get an AMEN! from me ....

“We’re still standing. Don’t give up. The power is still with “—We the people—”. We have another chance this November. Keep faith. The dream can become reality—VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!! “

My one caveat would be to remember not to vote for the people who got us here.  From this decade, we know both Democrats and Republicans will do exactly what you describe.

The good news is that there are usually other names on the ballot.  Or that you can put one there.  Or that you can run a write-in campaign.

A vote for either Democrat or Republican is a vote for more of the same.

Some spending on defense is necessary.  You want to spend enough that Viking raiders can’t come pillage your town and rape your women.

But, any spending above the amount needed for such security is a complete waste of money.  You get a tank or a plane or some kid with a gun that does absolutely nothing good for society ... once you’ve got enough of those to keep the Canadians from invading us.

Yes there are jobs. But the jobs produce nothing of value.

In contrast, spending the same money to build a school, or a hospital, or fiber-optics cables, or a mass transit train line also creates the same jobs.  Probably a few more jobs since ‘defense’ workers are overpaid in their non-competitive world.

And, such projects also create items that are good for our society and improve our society into the future.  That new school who’s roof doesn’t leak and which can operate on cold days because the heating works, that produces better educated citizens for the future. That hospital heals wounds and brings people back to health and creates a generally healthier society around it.  Those fiber-optic cables make it easier for us to communicate. Or maybe work remotely.  Those new mass transit lines alleviate traffic congestion and get people where they are going quicker and cleaner.

Spending on the military creates nothing useful.  Once we’ve spend enough to make sure those evil Canadians don’t come down and pillage the golden city of Detroit, anything spent beyond that is a waste.

If you want to know why the American economy has lost its world leadership role, if you want to know why American industry, American education, American health care all lag behind the rest of the world, then just look at the fortunes of national treasure that we’ve wasted on un-needed ‘defense’.

“Are we more secure with our permanent war economy, or is the pursuit of peace through trade and diplomacy, as the formerly most bitter of Chinese enemies are demonstrating, a better way?”…or is that even the right question to be asking? Until “we” know who “we” are, it’s hard to say. Some of “we” no doubt are more “secure” and enriched by “our” permanent war economy and some of “we” are not. Same with the Chinese, some of them will make out like…well, like Chinese bandits with these new capitalist trade deals. Just like NAFTA and WTO, these regional trade scams are designed to benefit the same class that benefits from their permanent war economy. Trade is war by other means to paraphrase Clausewitz.  So, even if “The remaining raison d’être for much of their $700 billion [military] budget has suddenly collapsed, and with it the claim on huge profits and high-flying careers”…their huge profits and high-flying careers will certainly be advanced by sweetheart trade deals.  And the newly minted Chinese capitalists want to get in on the fun at the top, too. “Taiwanese business investment on the mainland is already massive, but now it will enter the realm of the mainland’s high finance with the world economy as its playground.” They’re not going to just leave the world economic “playground” to the Goldman Sachs kiddies. The “pursuit of peace” is merely a side effect of the pursuit of power and profit through rigged trade and deceptive diplomacy. The new international financier class will pursue their own interests across national borders without regard to any national social interests. American and Japanese corporations like Apple and Honda and others are already exploiting cheap Chinese labor and the Taiwanese will do the same now. That may be a “better way” for the new international robber barons but is it a better way for the wage slaves sweating in their factories for pennies an hour?  This is the much ballyhooed “peace of the new world order that some U.S. leaders, most prominently the first President Bush, had once welcomed.”
“The question is whether Americans truly believe they can be winners in a world built on expanding trade” agreements that wipeout domestic manufacturing, escalate runaway deficits and widen class divisions.  “One has to wonder about our priorities when Congress cannot find the”… billions needed to continue unemployment payments for the millions of workers thrown out of jobs by NAFTA and WTO… “but never questions that sort of spending on military hardware with no logical purpose”...or questions such harmful trade agreements in the first place. “The proud promise of American capitalism, often in conflict with a drearier reality, was that our economy did not need”…labor conquest to succeed.  “Now it is the Chinese, of varying ideological disposition, the heirs of Mao Zedong and Chiang Kai-shek, who will test our commitment to that principle”… by following our dreary trade and labor practices. “Clearly those former enemies have concluded that power, in the modern world economy, does not grow out of the barrel of a gun”…despite what Tibetans and Uighurs may think. “The China-Taiwan agreement and its implications also raise some questions for Americans: How does a modern nation obtain”…worker security in an age of international capital exploitation? “Are we more secure with our permanent war economy, or is the pursuit of”…international class war a better way?

Formosa Now Returning to be a part of Mainland China.

Formosa is and was a part of Mainland China as a nation.  Chiang Kai-Shek looted the Mainland of China and fled to Formosa to avoid getting killed by Mao Tse-Tung and as a result the United States recognized the Island of Formosa (now Taiwan) as China. 

http://answers.encyclopedia.com/question/chaing-kai-shek-relationship-taiwan-112470.html

http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/mao.html

Now that both Chiang Kai-Shek and Mao Tse-Tung are both dead, and the USA is dependent upon China as a nation to purchase USA Treasury Bonds to support “borrow and spend” governance by the USA, Formosa (now Taiwan) can once more be a part of China.  “Better Dead Than Red” worked until the USA needed China for mercantile imports and credit, and now it’s “Better Red than Dead”.  And Formosa (now Taiwan) is no longer needed as a barrier to the expansion of Communism.  What does this tell you about our country?  Did Communism win?—or what?

Interesting, but no suprise, that American MSM, is avoiding coverage and dialogue, about the possibilites of such a major change in world politics. TY Mr. Scheer.

      That fellow posters cogent suggestions offered hope, about how positive an effect defense $$$$$ could have on a new American future, is uplifting. It’s the futue we ask’d President O to implement and deliver. (Alas, though he came to power on the promise of populist vision and promised change, he chose the “gold sacks” boys over the American people.)

      We’re still standing. Don’t give up. The power is still with “—We the people—”. We have another chance this November. Keep faith. The dream can become reality—VOTE!! VOTE!! VOTE!!

Its not the government, its the bankers. War is the most profitable industry of all for bankers. First the money has to be loaned to governments to fight the war, after all the destruction money has to be borrowed to rebuild. It took Britain from 1945- 2008 to repay it debts from World War 2.
And Bankers own the Government and control it through the Federal Reserve which is a collection of mega banks and large industries.
One good reason to seriously consider Ron Paul quixotic quest for President… where is the Ron Paul of the left liberals

Henri,
That reminds me of the story about the Aliens   approaching the warring humans and commanding, “We’re here to save the planet”...Everyone immediately stopped fighting but the Aliens reiterated, “we’re here to SAVE THE PLANET, not you.”

ArchivesDave, I share your pessimism when it comes to the present imperial system coming unravelled «with an ultimate positive outcome». While the risk is hardly quantifiable, I suggest it is more likely than not that the fall of the US Empire will be accompanied by/give rise to a conflagration that puts P to the brief, happy life of H sapiens sapiens on the planet. Many other species will no doubt be relieved….

Henri

Capitalism finds a way.

This simplification suffices to elucidate a panhuman dictum for masterhood over serfs: First divide a clan, tribe, people, into, broadly, people and non-people. People wld be shamans, priests, patricians, and the rest of the clan,tribe, or people wld be non-people.

Then u also divide peoples into peoples—or A-B peoples—and non-peoples; the latter with no rights other than ones granted them by A and B peoples.

Pal’ns thus are not a people. They are arabs, who also are a C,D,F people or a non-people.
Just like koreans,iraqis, pashtuns, ‘stanis, s.e.asians, apaches, zunis, some or most s. americanos-latinos, afrikanos, russians {a C nation}, et al.

On a verbal level, A sort of amerigos wld not ever admit that there are also B,C,D,F,G,H amerigos in US.

So, what to believe? Well, 98% of americans say on verbal level that all americans are the A category of people.
But why not believe ur eyes? Well, why not? Any elucidation for people’s not seeing, but solely believing? tnx

M Henri:
I truly want to believe you about turning this around but I don’t have as much faith in all of this coming unraveled by itself with an ultimate positive outcome.
As I see it, the Elitist tactic is to sow discord, depression and/or hyperinflation, establishing their own ‘utopia’ on the other side of the chaos, similar to what the JP Morgan Elitists did in conceiving and birthing the Federal Reserve in a chaotic economic period almost exactly 100 years ago. 
Griffin’s ‘The Creature From Jekyll Island’ is an
interesting read.

This country is bankrupt, so cut backs have to be made.

We can either have unemployement compenstation for millions, or we can have submarines.

We can either have a nation in debt slavery, or we can have derivative reform.

Right now there is some effort to make people think we live in a free country. Pretty soon they won’t even bother doing that anymore.

Our government is just a puppet show.

ArchivesDave, I agree that the printing of dollars will continue, and that as long as the United States retains control over most of the world’s oil resources and can see to it that these are denominated in dollars (one of the reasons why the US government is so adamant about controlling this region of the world), others, like the Chinese, will willy-nilly have to accept them. But I suspect that even such eminent economists and Wall Street alumni as Lawrence Henry Summers, Timothy Franz Geithner, and Ben Shalom Bernanke have not succeeded in building a perpetuum mobile and that the Ponzi scheme will crash, and that within a relatively short period of time. That will put the world - if, indeed, it survives the crash - on a very different footing, indeed….

Henri

Oh, here we go again.  Just because China is more interested in economics now doesn’t mean we can just dismantle our military/terrorism machine.  We need every penny of those trillion dollars we spend on defense and anti-terrorism.  Don’t forget the Times Square bomber who nearly managed to set off what may have been an attempt at a bomb of some sort!  Why, I lose sleep every night just thinking about how that bomb, or whatever it was, would have brought down our way of life and everything we believe in.  And then there are those 50 or more Al Queda terrorist that may be left in Afghnistan, or Pakistan, or wherever.  Don’t forget the 11 Russian spies found right in our midst; think of the damage they would have been able to do if we had not been spending that trillion dollars on defense and anti-terrorism every year!  And think of the dangers of Turkish boats trying to get to Gaza, radical leaders in Bolivia refusing to let foreign mining companies have our, I mean their, resources, not to mention the rise of the Green parties in Europe. 
What a nerve you have in trashing far-sighted leaders like Joe Lieberman and the few others who still recognize the huge value of spending $1 trillion every year for nuclear submarines and stealth bombers to stop future Times Square bombers.  And what else would we do with all that money anyway?

Relax, MIC fans. Polls show that Americans have been successfully
brainwashed to fear the Iranian “threat to our very existence”.
The “state sponsors of terrorism” orthodoxy will do more than
adequately as an ongoing justification for continuing to spend
gazillions on the military, especially since Americans also accept
the idea that our grand national purpose includes threatening to
invade and occupy anyc ountry that could ever conceivably pose a
threat to Israel’s extremely broad notion of its “security”.

Multiple thanks Mr. Scheer for reporting this. I actually knew about the breakthrough yesterday from the Dutch newspaper NRC Handelsblad. Our MSM did not report this historic happening. The interesting issue now is: how can the Whitewash House continue to send arms to one of the partners of this historic deal? Will Mr. Obama toss a coin to answer this question?

Henri:
Don’t count on it ... They’ll just crank up the printing presses a lot more on a global basis.
Salbuchi has been thru all of that in Argentina.

C. Curtis Dilllon is spot on. The Chinese have tremendous problems of their own and they realize economic power is far more potent then military, a logical concept beyond the understanding of idiots like Lieberman.

I am all for research. I am not for researching new ways to end human lives. We have a well used supply on hand and no need for more ingenious way to handle a job we seem to be far too well practiced at.

The MIC has managed accidentally to develop some important science but the cost has been horrific.

Lets stop looking in that direction and figure out how to make certain that no child goes to bed hungry, improperly clothed or poorly sheltered. We have more than adequate resources to accomplish this task. Unfortunately we have been brainwashed into accepting the notion that those who amassed many resources should not be imposed upon to enhance the lives of those who have not.

An encouraging development for residents of East Asia, which illustrates the decline in the US power to divide et impera in this vital region. But alas, I suspect that archivesDave is correct in his analysis that the military-industrial-media-lobbyist-congressional complex will devise a way to keep the tax moneys flowing - what else is DARPA for ? The good news is that this too shall pass - a bankrupt economi will in the end prove unable to sustain this egregious waste of money and talent….

Henri

How to combat the Global Corporatist Elites…
Adrian Salbuchi’s call to arms:

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1_5UfSJQaA&feature=related>

Don’t worry Robert, the Elitist Corporatists will figure out a way to keep the MIC going; And that includes the 800 bases we have encompassing the globe.
Let’s all keep Eisenhower’s famous quote in mind and
that should include the Media as well.

Our military spending was hardly justified even at the peak of the cold war but building these massively expensive machines now is sheer lunacy.  Lieberman is catering, of course, to his buddies at Electric Boat which would go out of business if subs were no longer needed.  Same with every military contractor we have ... no military need means no business.  So we get the argument that we need these massive expenditures as a “jobs program” for engineers and other highly skilled individuals.  But this argument is also stupid as military R&D is the most expensive process known to man.  It would be far cheaper to just give each unemployed engineer and specialist their salary directly, cutting out the middleman who sucks most of the money from the cash stream.  Then put these highly skilled people to work on projects that benefit us directly ... infrastructure and clean energy come to mind immediately.

We should basically put the pentagon and their huge industrial complex out of business or, at the very least, redefine their mission to one of national defense.  Military muscle no longer gives us any advantage unless we are prepared to invade a nation and we don’t have the resources to do that.  So we need to take that massive cash flow and put it to use creating new industries, new jobs and a reasonable, well funded social safety net.  Social security and medicare are not the issue here ... DOD and intelligence spending are along with the bloated and totally ineffective homeland security department.  Blow them up and we get a much better budget outlook and can almost completely eliminate the deficit.  Then tax the rich at the same rate at a middle class family, without all the loopholes, and we would be swimming in cash.