Actually since 1990 the USA, & friends have killed over 3 million alone just in Iraq. The 100,000 was from the initial “Shock & Awe” attack on Baghdad.

Actually since 1990 they USA, & friends have killed over 3 million alone just in Iraq. The 100,000 was from the initial “Shock & Awe” attack on Baghdad.

@ jay1953

So tell me Jay, what is the term that we should use to describe attacks on wedding parties by the U.S. military? Are those acts of terrorism?

It’s estimated that in Iraq alone there are over 100,000 civilians dead and millions more displaced. Neither Iraq nor the Iraqis—pre-invasion—had ever perpetrated any act of violence against the U.S. or its citizens. The same can be said of Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Let’s hear from ya Jay. Don’t disappoint!

One point is clear from the details.  Stack deliberately tried to kill IRS employees as the attack was made at 10am on a Thursday workday, so he was definitely trying to produce casualties.  So yeah, I think it is clear that he committed a deliberate act of premeditated terrorism.

Jay1953,

“Stack would have would have made more of an impact getting his message across, if that was his real intention, to follow in the example of the Buddhist Monks (i.e. and set fire to himself)”

Hmmmm, yeah perhaps your right, but that is a pretty tough standard isn’t it?  You too could make more of a statement by lighting yourself on fire, couldn’t you? But your not doing it either.  So what does this prove?

“But no, he was suicidal (the monk was not?), he wanted to kill, hurt and maim people, he wanted it to be instantaneous, he wanted it to be quick and painless, he didn’t want to suffer or agonize. He didn’t want to answer for the consequences of his actions. He took the COWARDS (my emphasis) way out”

This bogus statement reminds me of the absurdity of Bill Mahr being fired for suggesting the 911 suicide attackers just might not be the “cowards” Bush declared them to be from his comfortable couch.  One thing I am sure of in this life is that suicide is not “easy” or “cowardly”.  It is a final act of utter desperation and anguish, and is not remotely linked to cowardice.  So I ask, why do you wish to lie, and frame suicide as cowardice?  I will agree with you that it is regretable that Stack killed an IRS employee, but I won’t agree that it was a cowardly act.  And to further infer that Stack is a coward because he didn’t set himself of fire is the absolute height of idiocy!  Go have a Bud with Bush, you both deserve it!!

Now if only our duplicitous leaders would do so. They are not. If you are an (obvious) American with an Anglo-Saxon name, you aren’t a terrorist no matter what you do or how many you kill. That is how our gov’t is spinning it. So MarthaA & anyone else who doesn’t call Stack a terrorist is in that same boat. How does it feel? We can’t trust our gov’t because look at the caliber of people running most of it.

Thank you Jay1953 for saving me from taking on the vacuous thought process protecting a willful murderer. Unlike drunks, these people preplan their missions. I still think drunks who drive and kill someone should be charged with 1st degree murder because they did willfully drive to the place to get drunk, but that is another thread.

However the one thing that the person who commits suicide to kill others isn’t a coward by definition. [Unless they’re the enemy and then they automatically become one for propaganda purposes.] However Stack is still a criminal and terrorist even if our own gov’t won’t say so.

Martha,

you’re still trying to justify it by spinning it.

You state: “He was stressed, introverted and couldn’t see any way to have life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness…”

Oh! poor baby. Let’s forget about the real victim which was the IRS worker who died. Did he deserve it? Did Stack have the right to take his life? 

You state: “If he was a terrorist, everyone who commits suicide on the freeway or an alcoholic that causes death and damage is a terrorist and the person that ran their car into the pizza hut is a terrorist.  When you think about it, with that definition almost anyone who kills themself and others get killed or injured in the process is a terrorists.  I do not accept that definition.  Why do you want so badly for this man to be a terrorist?”

Well Martha you don’t get to make up your own definition. Tell me, all the incidents you just described in in the previous paragraph what was the political agenda of the perpetrators? Where they ideological or political acts designed to make a statement? That is what makes the distinction.

You state: “A while back there was some kids dropping rocks off a bridge onto some cars wrecking and killing some people, but they were never declared terrorists, and they were doing what they were doing deliberately.”

Where these kids making a political or ideological statement? What was their political or religious leanings? See how empty you argument is?

You state: “Was the nurse’s aid that warmed up the blood for the patient in the microwave and killed him a terrorist?  No body ever called her a terrorist.”

Again Martha you’re trying to spin it. Was the nurse making an ideological political statement? Was it a religious statement? Did she invoke god and her religion as justifications?

You state: “I think if people had been alert to this man’s need, this problem could have been circumvented, but everyone is kept so individualized in the United States taking care of their own needs, that no one ever has the time to think about anyone else having a problem, then when someone breaks,  they are a terrorist.”

Poor thing. You’re justifying terrorism. So if you don’t agree with policy did gives you the right to kill others at random?

You state: “It is real easy to say he was a terrorist and blow it off, when there are circumstances that caused him to break.  Hopefully all those that feel that this man was a terrorist never have to feel the stress he felt, or they may be a terrorist too.”

Spin, spin spin. I would compare your logic of justification with O’Reilly spinning to justify the murder of Dr. Tiller. I guess in your eyes that was okay too.

Let me remind you again what the definition of terrorism is:

Noun
•S: (n) terrorism, act of terrorism, terrorist act (the calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear)

By this definition your hero was a terrorist.

Of course Stack was a terrorist.  His intentions, as put forth in his suicide note or manifesto, were explicitly political.

MarthA:

Why do you have a problem distinguishing between a murderer who is and is not a terrorist?

Dr. Amy Wilson is not a terrorist.  But she will most assuredly be convicted of first degree murder and may even get the death penalty. (as much as I oppose it, if the facts we’ve been given are correct she deserves it if anyone does).  But why is she not a terrorist?  Amy Wilson’s cause was….Amy Wilson and Amy Wilson’s tenure.

But a terrorist seeks to disrupt society, to cause our systems to fall into crisis mode, to create intolerable conditions where we don’t trust our systems and mechanisms, and, ultimately coerce us into accepting the yoke of THEIR beliefs out of simple fear: Do as we tell you or you and your family can be killed at any time.

Terror is a political weapon, and Lenin wrote about it as such.  The 19th century anarchists were accused of terrorism (the Haymarket Square Bombing is one such example. Haymarket and the injustice of those tried and executed is a case-study in what NOT to do. It has been ignored since the Bush administration).

Suicide bombing is simply one,newer form of it. Flying planes into buildings wasn’t invented by Al Qaeda: Tom Clancy’s “Debt of Honor” ends with an angry JAL pilot crashing his 747 into the Capitol and that was written long before 9/11.

No, Stack was a terrorist. Unlike Amy Wilson, his goal was to, through terror, make a political statement.  Both are murderers.  Only Stack is a terrorist.

By definition, Stack committed an act or terrorism. I hesitate to call him such because I do not wish to support, not in even a casual or superficial way, this absurd “war on terror” that is, at its heart, an act of imperialism and profit.

He was stressed, introverted and couldn’t see any way to have life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and did an irrational thing.  I doubt if he could afford psychological help.

If he was a terrorist, everyone who commits suicide on the freeway or an alcoholic that causes death and damage is a terrorist and the person that ran their car into the pizza hut is a terrorist.  When you think about it, with that definition almost anyone who kills themself and others get killed or injured in the process is a terrorists.  I do not accept that definition.  Why do you want so badly for this man to be a terrorist?

A while back there was some kids dropping rocks off a bridge onto some cars wrecking and killing some people, but they were never declared terrorists, and they were doing what they were doing deliberately.

Was the nurse’s aid that warmed up the blood for the patient in the microwave and killed him a terrorist?  No body ever called her a terrorist.

I think if people had been alert to this man’s need, this problem could have been circumvented, but everyone is kept so individualized in the United States taking care of their own needs, that no one ever has the time to think about anyone else having a problem, then when someone breaks,  they are a terrorist.

It is real easy to say he was a terrorist and blow it off, when there are circumstances that caused him to break.  Hopefully all those that feel that this man was a terrorist never have to feel the stress he felt, or they may be a terrorist too.

Martha,

So your qualification of a terrorist is someone who belongs to an organization like Al-Qaeda. Everybody else is excused, right?

You state: “I expect we are considered terrorists to the other nations and it seems like we are to me:”

I would agree with you here. Of course the US is a terrorist country. It supports and commits terrorism in our name. We must oppose this through non-violence. Fanatics are violent. Rational people are pacifists and respect life. No one has justification to take anothers life.

Now there are those that argue that the US does some good things, and it does. In some respects its benevolent country. It has some bad people, but it has mostly good people. You have to put things in perspective Martha, outside the box of ideology and emotions. Just the facts.

Defending Stack’s terrorism while condemning US terrorism and support thereof is not seeing things through an objective lens, but through an ideological and emotional lens. It’s like defending a serial rapist because he agrees with you ideologically.

JDmysticDJ

I’m glad we agree that Stack was in fact a terrorist. The definition is very clear.

As to the self-immolation that I suggested for Stack is precisely because I grew up during the Vietnam era and I remember the impact it had on me personally when I saw those Buddhist Monks set themselves on fire on the nightly news. (Unlike Iraq and Afghanistan, Vietnam was on TV every-night, I mean the blood and gore. The dead bodies. That turned public opinion against the war. This is why the government has tight control of the media today and this is why politicians can promulgate 2 senseless decade long wars on pure hype and bluster.) I think most of us were horrified by it all.

In general, today most Americans don’t know what real suffering is.

Stack would have would have made more of an impact getting his message across, if that was his real intention, to follow in the example of the Buddhist Monks. But no, he was suicidal, he wanted to kill, hurt and maim people, he wanted it to be instantaneous, he wanted it to be quick and painless, he didn’t want to suffer or agonize. He didn’t want to answer for the consequences of his actions. He took the cowards way out. He was a terrorist.

Stack was as bad and evil a terrorist, or worse, than the 9/11 terrorists because he was attacking his own country. His own people. So Stack was not just a terrorist but a traitor to his country. He attacked his own country. That is an undeniable fact. That is treason.

If he really was true to his convictions he should have followed the example of the Buddhist Monks. He took the easy way out, the cowards way.

Stack definitely terrorized so that too is a qualification. Plus tossed many people out of work and in a Depression too. Such a find bastard he is.

Jay1953

When self immolation becomes a more rational alternative to an action, it only points out the insanity of that action. The stark truth is that if Stack had chosen self immolation, he would have been more successful at achieving his avowed goal, and he would have reduced the “body count.” 

Around a dozen Buddhist monks immolated themselves during the Viet Nam War Era. These immolations did have a significant impact here in the U.S.A.

Could an act of self immolation be considered terrorism? The “questionable,” suicides of three Guantanamo inmates were determined to be “asymmetric warfare,” perpetrated by those who (supposedly) committed suicide. How crazy have things become?

All that aside, Stack defined his act as a political one, so he was a terrorist.

Possible solar electricity generation fraud along with genocide is now in focus.

http://home.comcast.net/~bpayne37/karenfield/karenfield.htm

Should we sound the alarm, Red Alert, there may be a questionable terrorist of one?  We must identify the terrorist.  If this is how the nation as a whole thinks, our nation has a serious fear complex brought on by the Bush administration.  Now, whatever happens, it was terrorism, couldn’t be anything else, by golly I have a definition somebody made.  We must beware, the terrorists are going to get us.  Are those people who kill people in McDonalds, etc. terrorists?  No one can just lose their mind anymore, they have to be a terrorist.  We need to fear our government more than the terrorists, as they appear to be behind the terror.

There were actual terrorists on 9/11/01 and we the populace are still trying to figure out exactly what happened because the whole thing has been kept pretty mum, which doesn’t seem right to me that it should be so mum finding real terrorists, but it has been.  Here is the latest information on finding the real terrorists,  that I hope works:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article24856.htm

I expect we are considered terrorists to the other nations and it seems like we are to me:

http://cindysheehanssoapbox.blogspot.com/2010/02/peace-camp-demands-that-president-obama.html

Bobadi I’m only responding to the way you write. I only couch it in more visible terms. Let me quote;

I got to wonder if we should be calling the bee that stings the hand of the beekeeper: “a terrorist?”

You are saying here that Stack isn’t a terrorist. You are wrong.

(Our stored survival resources, stolen along with the product of all of our efforts, is not yet fully realized through the corporate media smoke haze.)

I agree but do you really think that will help us and not them? They want us to get violent. It is easy for anyone to see once they analyze it. If we don’t we will be crushed. This is the 21st century and they have crowd control weapons that they can fire and your skin will feel as if on fire! Right through brick walls. Think carefully what you advocate. Also they will be making their empire a Christian-corporate hive. We will be the workers, they the rulers.

Their wealth, which they have gained by coercion and pillage, will have to be forcibly confiscated and redistributed. History teaches us that until the streets are filled with the fetid corpses of the ruling elite and their henchmen, the recrudescence of liberty and freedom cannot flourish.

If it comes to that it will be too late and what I have said previously will be in force. They are ready for this. We won’t be. We out number them but not all of us will or can fight. They have their armies of veterans both regular and corporate. But it won’t come to that. It will be a loss if it happens. True I expect our over sized country to fall apart as all the other ones will eventually.
But it will be ugly and civilization may not survive it.

Nemesis2010

Based on what I have read from your posts, there is much agreement between what you and I believe, but we seem to disagree on whether or not you are a dangerous psychopath. I’d like to believe that you are not, and that your only crime is one of hyperbole. However your advocacy for “Fetid Corpses” violence, and blood, indicates otherwise.

My “Handle” is irrelevant to this discussion, as is yours, but I’ll comment that you have designated yourself as a nemesis, but that remains to be seen. Whether I am, or am not, a Christian is also irrelevant to this debate, and seems to indicate that you also have a tendency towards religious bigotry, but to set the record straight, I’ll say that the answer to your question is yes, and no. I don’t think that many Christians would consider me to be a Christian, but I do put some value on Christ’s teachings, as well as on the teachings of many other religious and secular philosophers, social commentators, etc., but all this is trivial compared to the issue at hand, and I only respond because your comment is a subtle kind of Adhominem attack intended to discredit my views, to some.

Your attempt to gain some moral authority by citing your sempre fi experience may find credence with some, but I believe your former experience with “Fetidness” is a detriment, and not a virtue. While you were off participating in “fetidness,” I was here at home trying to stop it.

You say, “All I did yesterday was state the obvious of what history teaches us.”

History has taught you nothing, you have completely ignored the lessons of history. You cite several “Lessons” from history, including Viet Nam and Cambodia. You’re right, I’m not a psychologist, but I’ll offer a laymen’s opinion, until you come to realize the error, and consequences, of our policies in Viet Nam and Cambodia, you’ll continue to consider bloodletting to be rational.

You also mention several examples from history of “Just War.” Volumes have been written about the concept of “Just War,” and I’ll readily concede that people and peoples must defend themselves, or others, from violent attack. Justifications for defending against violent attack are obvious, and I need not state the consequences of not defending against violent attack. I’ll state that those who initiate violent attack have not learned the lessons of history, their false justifications for initiating violent attack are as old as history, and the consequences of their initiations are also as old as history.

Regarding our Revolutionary War, who initiated the violence is debatable, and it’s clear that our oppressors were no strangers to initiating violence. Our avowed goals in pursuing that war were virtuous, but the results of that war were not pure, and resulted in a change in power from one group of oppressors to another. I believe this is a lesson in history that has been learned by some, but ignored by others, and that this lesson is worthy of serious consideration, when evaluating your recommendations.

I believe that there is an Ecclesiastical “time and season,” but that that proverbial “time and season” only comes when all other options have failed. I believe that we currently we have options that have not been tried, or even been given much consideration.

Back to Kennedy’s quotation;

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.”

Perhaps we’re both guilty of the crime of hyperbole, but I’m hoping that, if and when we resort to revolution, it will be a peaceful one, one that achieves the necessary goals, and one that will avoid the real, and potential, consequences of a violent one.

Oh Night-Gaunt, I am not supporting him, or violence, but I think I do understand the reason for him and it, and as I say I am amazed about how easily we are all manipulated to have lost everything.

I also think there will be more of these “bees” flying around overhead, when the otherwise completely unaware begin to realize their resources have all been stolen by the hands that have dipped heavily into the hive, and have taken everything.

(Our stored survival resources, stolen along with the product of all of our efforts, is not yet fully realized through the corporate media smoke haze.) 

I also think you are right, an age of draconian authority or fascism rises, and I wonder just what can be done about that, if insects or people cannot be made aware of any of their manipulations?

Martha, where in the definition of terrorism does it say that it has to be organized or commited by a group?

Noun
•S: (n) terrorism, act of terrorism, terrorist act (the calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear)

He could have made his statement without trying to kill or hurt people. Like I said before if he was suicidal he could have doused himself with gasoline and set himself on fire in front of the building. Once he tried to harm inocent people it is terrorism. Even if I sympathize with his cause.

You guys can spin it anyway you like. What Stack did was an act of terrorism. There is no shades of gray in between. No justification for what Stack did.

Bobadi

I got to wonder if we should be calling the bee that stings the hand of the beekeeper: “a terrorist?”

No because the bee stung another worker and that makes him so.

Can you not see the difference between a fellow worker bee, and the hand that comes to take your efforts for their own pleasure?

Yes but can you see that when we attack each other we are hurting ourselves, not our “keepers” in this instance?

Do they not all proceed with caution so to not stir the hive?

Shouldn’t we do the same and not fall into their trap? Stack accomplished one thing, he helped those who wish to control us even more strictly. He did nothing for us. And if you support him then you are no help to us either, just the oppressors.

I disagree with you, Nemesis2010 & John Ellis Capitalism isn’t a failed system. But unlimited Capitalism is. Like fire, electricity and cell growth if they aren’t controlled they destroy all that is around them. That is what failed.

Joseph Stack was one man acting alone but others could also do the same, bolstered by his action. Especially if they think the same way several people on this forum have have agreed with his violent actions. Shame on you MarthaA & Bobadi for supporting the means to end what is left our our Republic! [Don’t you think our would be owners have not planned for such an eventuality? They have been setting up the laws and the police/military training and arming to deal with this.] Don’t fall into their trap. They aren’t fools nor compassionate to us.

No, Joseph Stack is not a terrorist.  Saying someone is a terrorist gives the impression that there will be more terror to come.  This was only one man, who really didn’t care that much about anyone else, gave up trying for himself and sadly, fought back stupidly.  This word terrorist is highly pushed and misused in today’s world.

Robert E and Robin K Carman of Santa Cruz, NM have been battling the IRS as defendants in New Mexico federal court.

The Carmans, IMO, mounted such an effective pro se legal battle with the IRS that their case, Bob Carman reported on February 19, 2010, has gone silent for 2 years.

Carmans argued lack legal standing of the IRS and filed to void judgment.

We filed to void judgment in the NSA/Nojeh lawsuit 97 CV 266.  And are trying to get our $22,036 back as a partial result.

I’ve posted the pdfs of some of the Carman court filings

http://www.prosefights.org/nmlegal/marquis/marquisbackground.htm

so readers can see an apparently effect non-violent way to combat the IRS.

The feds appear to invite trouble by many, if not most, of their actions.

@ John Ellis:

Is there a law that specifically states that slave labor is legal? If so what is that law and when was it enacted?

As for capitalism I agree with you wholeheartedly. It has proven to be a failed economic system – it’s basically profit by coercion. The system works very well for that 1% that accumulates most all of the wealth. At least for a time because as I said: history—not me—teaches us that it is usually resolved with a bloodletting. Saying that doesn’t make me a “dangerous psychopath” as JDmysticDJ would have you believe. Avarice blinds those in power to the destruction their actions wreak upon the masses while hubris prevents them from believing that their actions might reap severe consequences.

@ jay1953:

Contrary to Empire propaganda there are many in this world who believe 9/11 justified -especially those whom have been “liberated” by AmeriCorp’s intervention. 

Should this act be the beginning of an overthrow of the corporatocracy and restoration of the republic how do you think Mr. Stack will be portrayed? My money says hero. To the winner go the spoils and the privilege of writing history.

How much change do you think whining to your representative about Wall Street and taxation with only corporate representation will achieve? I doubt Mr. Stack’s act will achieve much in the way of reform but then again; it could be the opening volley! Time will tell.

Speaking of taxes, listen to John Stewart tell Glenn Beck about taxes and that Beck’s a “commie”:

http://rawstory.com/2010/02/stewart-beck-socialist-libraries/

Under the laws enacted by the Bush admin and held up in the Obama admin, the patriots who fought the English, so not to be English tax slaves, would be terrorists…The constitutional rights to own and bare arms,so we can rise up against a tyrannical government, has been taken away from us…Any group or person who tries to stand up against our current system will be crushed by the money we provide via some of our taxes. At this point I doubt that the tax payers, are actually paying for the actual cost of the covert take over of the US and the rest of the world.  The new world government, that is being created will have a central core with, it seems America as the world prison/police corporation to hold it together…I don’t condone violence at all but it’s clear that this particular man, Ayers cracked, blew, exploded..To me it’s clear that he represents the undercurrent of what is below the surface of at least half of all America…Guns are flying off the shelf, bullets too, families have Sunday afternoon target practice at the practice ranges and other places…The real tension is right under the surface. The bankers and our own elected (wink wink) officials apparently or deliberately do not see how serious and dangerous the situation is for America they are blind. What’s sad is that when/if this whole scenario blows, everyone everywhere will loose..The system will collapse, and what replaces it may be worse than what we have.But on the other hand left to continue down the path taken to basically enslave American’s for generations to slavery, total destruction of our middle class, end of unions, fair wages, no social nets for health care, no way to get food and health care…Are they deliberately plotting or setting up the obvious conditions for a people to self destruct? Is that the ultimate intent behind the internal take over of the US, ahhhhhh this is like a crazy sci fi, black operations, social engineering nightmare…Orwell’s 1984 scenario look’s like kindergarten compared to where this is inevitably going..This is like watching a pressure cooker, explode, playing dumb like you have no clue how fire burns pressure expands etc.. My guess is that our social engineers will play dumb when the pot explodes as usual, and run/hide in their underground cities, that really do exist in the US, or fly away to a safe South American destination…It’s a good way to reduced the population in the US, and 3rd world slaves can always be imported…I see what is going on it’s obvious, I saw the obvious when the housing industry collapsed…Everything was so obvious, only inevitable common sense, so really what the heck? Has everyone lost the ability to see the obvious, what is going on right before their eyes? This is crazy…

Night-Gaunt,
No, I don’t agree with Libertarians, and of course I am for taxes, as long as they represent the bolstering of our “hive.”

Can you not see the difference between a fellow worker bee, and the hand that comes to take your efforts for their own pleasure?

This is what I am getting at, we are so indoctrinated by the system we inhabit, that we cannot tell the difference between the parasites and ourselves, and are and will be worked to vitiation for them.
I also agree that his sting may indeed anger the keepers into vengeance, but are not their methods more subtle?

Do they not all proceed with caution so to not stir the hive?

What Stack had done was a blow against freedom and could easily make our lives more restricted that much faster. Especially if it happens again. Can you imagine what would happen if a string of gov’t offices are attacked or blown up? Like the series of church fires in Texas only the Feds will be all over it. Homeland Security and the FBI under the freedom of the war powers act?

Ted Kazinski had some grievance too but he also killed people with mail bombs, is he a hero? If so why or not why not? How does that differ from Stack? What are the similarities? There will be a quiz at the end of this.

I think that if A. Joseph Stack III wanted to protest while killing himself at the same time he should have gone to the same federal building, sat outside on the sidewalk where he wouldn’t hurt any innocents, douse himself with gasoline and lit a match. He would have gotten his message across more effectively since he wouldn’t be labeled a terrorist, which he is.

Those who justify A. Joseph Stack III act of terrorism could just as easily justify 9/11.

A. Joseph Stack III is a terrorist by any definition.

So Bobadi, “taxation is theft” to you? Then you can agree with the white militias and radical Libertarians and start that attack on all IRS offices. When I was foolishly in the Libertarian mind set I actually entertained fantasies of that. Thankfully I was put off by the coldness and selfishness inherit in the individual as an island idea. Every one for themselves was and is a poisonous concept that ultimately weakens us as a civilization. I do agree that the individual should have more autonomy over what we do for and to ourselves, but we must have Mutual Aid also. All for one etc.

What Stack had done was a blow against freedom and could easily make our lives more restricted that much faster. Especially if it happens again. Can you imagine what would happen if a string of gov’t offices are attacked or blown up? Like the series of church fires in Texas only the Feds will be all over it. Homeland Security and the FBI under the freedom of the war powers act?

Ted Kazinski had some grievance too but he also killed people with mail bombs, is he a hero? If so why or not why not? How does that differ from Stack? What are the similarities? There will be a quiz at the end of this.

@ JDmysticDJ:

Where did you obtain your degree in psychology? Looking at your handle I can’t help but wonder if you’re a psychologist who works part time as a DJ or a DJ who practices psychology when you lack gigs? Perhaps you’re neither? I read another of your posts and I believe that you are a Christian, right? That would fit: “judge not less…”, something or other, I can’t remember.

I enjoy using words that carry a shock value in today’s AmeriCorp society. The Empire’s language has been whitewashed in order to keep the serfs’ consciences clear and thus obedient to the overlords. You do understand that corpses become fetid, don’t you? They rot! They begin to rot immediately. I know this for a fact because I was serving in the U.S.M.C. from 1965 – 1970. Guess what we were doing? There was a bunch of fetidness going on!

All I did yesterday was state the obvious of what history teaches us. And I’m NOT sorry if that offended you! Did the British Empire capitulate to colonial demands or was a war fought for independence? Did the French overlords heed the demands of the populace or did throwing off the yoke of oppression require a blood-letting so severe that even today we stand in awe of what took place there? What happened in Russia? How was the Nazi yoke of oppression thrown off? Vietnam? Cambodia?

Avarice, hubris, envy, and fear are the most powerful and destructive emotions in humans. The ruling elite of the Empire are making the same errors that their ilk has been making for millennia. They are betting that the populace will not rise up in revolt. Their avarice and hubris blind them to what is really going on right below the surface. It’s easy to adjust to a rising standard of living, but it’s pure hell to adjust to a declining one! That’s what we see happening with Joe Stack. That’s what we see with the man that bulldozed his house rather than let the bank repossess it. Broken dreams, lives destroyed, and hopelessness; if you sow wind you’ll reap the whirlwind! 

What do you think is going to happen as more of these trained and bloodied soldiers start mustering out only to find that there are no jobs and that their families have been ravaged by the same corporate elitists that used them as canon fodder?

Wish thinking and denial of truth is not the way one should live one’s life. Wish thinking and denial of the truth is exactly why Americans find themselves in the corporate hell that they now live in. They can’t say that they weren’t warned because Jefferson made it clear what corporations and central banks would do.

@ Alejandro:

Joe Stack was not an idiot. Joe Stack was not a right wing moron. And there is no god.

Americans have serious grievances with respect to the ruling elite and its minions in government. The elite and the minions in government haven’t a clue how to fix the mess they’ve made. They are doing what all of that ilk have done for millennia –they are hoarding all the wealth they can before the death rattle sounds. Joe Stack was simply a hard-working, decent American citizen who cracked and reacted as best he saw fit. I don’t agree with his methodology but that’s life. Prepare yourself, because it’s going to get a lot worse. This empire has wreaked economic havoc unto the world; the whirlwind cometh!

I don’t think so.  How many times has the “terror security alert” been raised since President Obama has been in office?

How many times was the “terror security alert” raised when President Bush was in office?

Tell the truth.

Kudos to John Ellis

I got to wonder if we should be calling the bee that stings the hand of the beekeeper: “a terrorist?”

The bee gave its life and its stinger in response to the theft of its honey, taken from overseers who prosper (as parasites) on the bee’s work.

Or perhaps the real question is, “have we all been modified to be stinger-less worker drones, and smoked by corporate media to accept the hand reaching into the ‘ready made to open’ box built to house us?”

I am not surprised when a bee stings the beekeeper.

I am always in awe of how easy it is to manipulate bees.

Call it what you will, this is an example of asymmetric warfare carried out by a disgruntled American. For some, it’s the only way they can get their message across in this media-hyped society. I fully expect to see an uptick in such acts as veiled interests continue to stoke class hatreds.

Before continuing, let me say this: I’m a freethinker who supports the non-violent resolution of human problems without the need to introduce theology.

Any students of history out there? What happens when a significant portion of any community begins to feel put-upon and devalued? What happens when many lack the critical thinking abilities to sort truth from fiction? What happens when propaganda machines fan the flames of populist anger? What happens when charismatic leaders take the stage and pander to the base emotions of such frothing multitudes? What happens when such people gather the reins of awesome military might?

Now, we already have overwhelming force concentrated in the hands of an increasingly militarized homeland security apparatus. We’re armed to the teeth as a society. Our political institutions are utterly corrupted by the unfettered flow of capital lately deemed equal to free speech. What wealth remains for the majority of Americans is widely perceived to be at risk of loss through actions of finance capitalists. Our military colossus stands astride the world, provoking resentment for its heavy-handedness with no end in sight. Our practice of financial colonialism impoverishes billions in other nations whilst destroying our way of life at home.

It sounds like a prescription for disaster. Just beware of the ultimate blow-back. All those high-technology weapons we unleash from on high upon ‘targets’ unseen and unknown in human terms will play quite nicely in Peoria.

Have a nice day!

Don Nygaard
Curious Guy

Funny that the same people who are calling Stack a “hero” as the ones that would quickly want the heads of anyone wearing a turbant as a “terrorist” which makes all this even more controversial and interesting.  Sadly, Stack’s opinion of the government can’t hardly be argued, he was right on target with that even if he went about it the wrong way.

MarthaA, February 23 at 6:23 pm #

When Democrats are in power FEAR isn’t spun constantly, when REPUBLICANS are in power, nothing but FEAR is spun.
*****************

A meaningless, certainly trite and absolutely false opinion…..

I have read Stack’s manifesto and am largely in agreement with his opinions.  It is surprising his letter has not been suppressed but there is no doubt that it will not be adequately represented in the MSM.  Obviously, Stack is a “criminal” and “terrorist” having physically destroyed property and life in his act of defiance.  Those that describe Stack as anti-tax are incorrect.  Rather he was railing against inequitable tax laws that were enacted to favor corporatists and special interests by a bought and paid for so called “representative” government.  Such inequitable legislature represents legalized crimes against humanity by the elite powers in control.  Stack’s offenses in the same way made George Washington a “criminal” and “terrorist” to the ruling British government.

John Ellis

Your recent post to nemesis2010 was one I agree with completely. I admire your style and restraint.

I was going to tell him he was a dangerous psychopath, because of his comments about “fetid corpses” and whatnot.

Outside not inside. We are a kluge right now partially an empire externally with partially functioning remnants of the republic within. Only one or the other will survive or they both will fall into chaos.

The death of the American republic began with the civil war, took a giant step forward in the 1880s with the Robber Barons and was finalized during the Wilson administration. The transition to a full blown empire happened between the world wars and since 1945 the U.S. has operated as the world’s dominating empire. Rome existed in a time where transportation and technology required much more time to accomplish a task than today. Technology has shrunk the world considerably. 500 year empires are a thing of the past.

This empire is fetid and crumbling from within. This empire is a parasite that has just about killed its host. What the world needs now to ensure a recrudescence of personal freedom and liberty is for the evil AmeriCorp Empire to crumble and the 50 state union to break apart into smaller more manageable nations.

Just remember the Republic hasn’t fallen yet and like Rome they lost their Republic first then their empire some 500+ years later. It is our republic first. Like Rome they built up a military and conquered places but only later lost their democratic form of a republic. We lose ours too before the empire is even close to falling. One comes first before the other.

Supporting Hamas is not a crime Harkonnen, much as you would like it to be. What you are in fact trying to say is that anyone who supports the Palestinian struggle for justice against Israel is a terrorist. This in fact has been the entire aim of the war on terror: to demonize an entire religion and entire states and to make any form of support for them into a crime. This is what’s known as thought crime and it is not part of US law or in fact the law of any country outside of the former Soviet Union or places like Burma and China and Israel.

The line you’re pushing makes anyone who ‘thinks the wrong way’ into a terrorist and therefore a criminal. This is exactly what led to the infamous McCarthy period and the even more infamous House Unamerican Activities Committee and it seems this McCarthyism has now returned, aimed this time at Muslims and the entire west has been conned into participating in it. I don’t believe what Stack did was terrorism: the definition of terrorism in my dictionary is ‘To dominate or coerce by intimidation’. He hasn’t dominated, coerced or intimidated anyone to my knowledge and he wasn’t part of a group or organization with an agenda of armed struggle. However, I can’t think of a better definition than this one of the activities of both the Pentagon and the IDF. Part of the definition on Wikipedia is even more descriptive of the mindset of both these groups:
‘As Bruce Hoffman has noted: terrorism is a pejorative term. It is a word with intrinsically negative connotations that is generally applied to one’s enemies and opponents or to those with whom one disagrees and would otherwise prefer to ignore. Hence the decision to call someone or label some organization terrorist is almost unavoidably subjective.’ You wouldn’t be calling this (Palestinian) man a terrorist if he was a member of Likud or Mossad or the CIA would you? But the crimes of those in these organizations and their power to commit crimes with impunity make those of Hamas look like very small beer indeed.

When Democrats are in power FEAR isn’t spun constantly, when REPUBLICANS are in power, nothing but FEAR is spun.

Fascinating how the Democrat propagandists are now trying to sell the pro-war, pro-police state position to their followers by painting any right-wingers who oppose this government as violent crazies.

The follow up pieces to this will be calling for more domestic spying, of course higher police budgets, and probably legislation to allow the pre-emptive arrests of Americans based on the drummed up fear of right-wing terrorism.

All they do is change the spin on the propaganda as one party leaves power and the other obtains it. 

But the goals of the propaganda are the same.  You are supposed to be afraid.  In your fear you are supposed to support more government power and fewer rights. 

They just spin it differently to this audience.

I expect this man lost his mind.  He wanted to be a big dog, but the system is set up against him, therefore he destroyed himself and fought back at what he thought was the problem.  He should have joined a populace movement against legal tyranny, which is government oppression, instead of throwing away his life.  I hope the government doesn’t take his mental problems out on his family.

Joe Stack’s attack on the IRS whether one considers it an act of terrorism or heroism is a symptom of a disease. This oligarchic corporatocracy is unresponsive to the concerns of the majority of the population because functionaries in the government are subservient to their true constituency; their corporate overlords. The U.S. Treasury is a revolving door to Wall Street and vice versa. The halls of Congress are filled with more lobbyists than all of the Las Vegas whorehouses are filled with johns on a three day weekend!

Americans—both the right and the left—have real grievances! For 40 years wages have either stagnated or decreased for the majority of Americans and the middle class has been dwindling at an alarming rate. Our manufacturing base has been eviscerated and shifted overseas, costing millions of jobs, and families are struggling just to put food on the table and keep a roof over their heads.

Meanwhile, the oligarch criminal classes of AmeriCorp; the CEOs, corporate directors, the corporate hoes of the U.S. Congress, PROTUS, SCOTUS, and their henchmen class, are reaping record profits, salaries, and benefits in the hundreds and thousands of percent increase. Wealth redistribution to the upper 1% is beyond that of the robber baron era in the 1800s!

When Americans finally realize that national politics have nothing to do with Left vs. Right, socialism vs. capitalism, or communism vs. representative republicanism, but rather the oligarchy vs. the middle, working, and poor classes; all hell is going to bust loose. It’s way past time that Americans realize that the oligarch, contrary to their propaganda; love big, interventionist government and the redistribution of wealth –as long as the wealth is redistributed to them. That’s why no so-called conservative, republican, teabagger, libertarian, whatever, can point to any Republican led administration that reduced the size of government, exercised fiscal reasonability or practiced “free-market” economic principles. Corporate capitalism is a massive failure for all but a very few and AmeriCorp has proved that beyond any doubt. 

No change will be accomplished by voting. Neither will there be any meaningful change by supplication to supposed representatives in government; because they are owned by the oligarchs and form a part of their brutalizing class. The oligarch is not going to willingly surrender their positions of kingly grandeur -history teaches us that. It will have to be taken by force! Their wealth, which they have gained by coercion and pillage, will have to be forcibly confiscated and redistributed. History teaches us that until the streets are filled with the fetid corpses of the ruling elite and their henchmen, the recrudescence of liberty and freedom cannot flourish.

Americans who survived previous avaricious and hubristic predations of society by corporate oligarchs and their minions in government placed regulatory restraints to prevent that from occurring again. In 1970s—with the criminal administration of Richard Nixon—the dismantling of our relatively egalitarian economy began. The destruction of that economy was assured with the election of Ronald Reagan and every corporate figurehead elected since.

The fall of an empire is never graceful; it is always violent and bloody!

hello again. JDmysticDJ, that was a very fine post. i agree completely, and believe although the Representatives all put on angry opposing faces in public- behind closed doors, they agree with each other, good buddies that they all are: they need more money. i think the system is corrupted, and needs the truth on public display. from there we can formulate consensus, and return public consent to government.

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2010/02/18-3

Thought some might like to read that suicide note in its entirety. Making an informed decision is so much easier when actually informed.

We are all responsible for our actions, or non actions, even when there are mitigating circumstances. A sense of helplessness will lead to non actions, non actions, which we will be responsible for. An example of actions we are responsible for would be providing mitigation for unjustifiable acts.

The quotation from Kennedy, provided by c. hanna,

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.”

is interesting from more than just one perspective. I’ll suggest that those who discourage peaceful revolution, within the context of the above quotation, because they find it impractical, or too difficult, also make violent revolution inevitable, and every mitigation, explanation, or justification for violent acts make violent revolution more acceptable.

Personally, I don’t see violent revolution as a practical solution on any level. Even under the most absolute, dire, extreme circumstances, violent revolution would only perpetuate the extreme circumstances, and would have no chance of success in bringing peace, justice, or security. I believe if revolution is necessary, only peaceful revolution is an option, whether revolutionary acts are necessary at this time, must be determined by the individual, but I believe individuals who resort to violent acts, or provide mitigation, explanation, or justification for violent acts, are guilty of being counter revolutionary.

My personal belief is that we are now in need of a peaceful revolution within the confines of our democracy, and our constitution, but my view is not popular. Many progressives detail the injustices, express their righteous outrage, and offer theoretical reasons for these injustices, but they advocate no action. Hopefully, their cogent, reasoned arguments alone will bring about a revolution in thought, but my own observation is that these cogent, reasoned arguments, are currently failing to meet this objective. Perhaps a more pro-active political action, in the form of non violent political protest will create a larger audience and bring these reasoned arguments to the forefront of political debate. I’m aware that revolutionary actions can cause alienation, but if the reasoned arguments have merit, they will prevail. Truth may not be self evident, but the truth becomes evident with examination.

Terrorist.

I hope the bastard didn’t die quickly.

You can fight the IRS. It takes brains, guts and knowledge. You can find attorneys who know how to fight the IRS and win.  Stack copped out.

Only a hypocrite would call Stack a hero.

hello. i tried to comment already, but i mentioned
the Patriot Act, conspiracy theorists, martial law:)
and it went into the blogosphere. label this nut
insane, correct the IRS, and move on. his creedo (not
manifesto as noted) was ‘from each according to their
gullibility, to each according to their greed’. it
reflected his failures at capitalism, and this act he
wrongly and bravely characterized as a statement
against an agency that only wants him to succeed (to
scoop off unrighteous amounts of earnings) was
insane: because he wanted to do it with people in the
building. this government agency helped drive him to
this insane act, and should be corrected. it makes
many of us insane, but we smoke dope and cope. we
mask the illness in a mind numbing haze, and this is
an agency that needs to be corrected. it hurts most
of us, and it needs to be simplified. i do not
condone insanely striking empty buildings, but it
would have legitimized his statement about striking
out against the institution of taxation without
costing innocent death. this was a guy that needed to
smoke dope. instead, he went insane.

I am just wondering how long it will take till we see a video on Foxnews of Stack enjoying a cup of Arabian tea high up in the mountains of Tora Bora with the Late Osama Bin Laden’s Ghost,while discussing the latest tactics of terror attacks to be carried out in the USA.

We must understand is that his letter was from his point of view. I wonder if we will ever have information from others in relation to his own perceptions. It may have a different look to it after. Last night got to see “No Country Without Men” and it showed some revolutionaries just turned into killers like most anyone else who crosses that line of humanity and humanism and go into the depths of red death to solve all problems. Our enemies are ready to do it but are we? (Corporate-military and their millionaire owners are so ready.) And if so do we understand what that will do? I know that if we do it will be awful and ugly and mass murder will be the order of the day, for whatever reasons. And that our enemy will be well armed, trained and experienced and ready, willing and able to kill anyone in their way. We must go the legal rout and follow the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Or else we could easily become like Chile or Iraq or even Iran.

I have now read Stack’s letter and I found much of it reasonable.  I myself have had some run-ins with IRS and can report that they are a law unto themselves.  The tax code is so complex that even specialists cannot understand it (although they can make a lot of money out of not understanding it) and an accidental misstep can lead to ruin.  Moreover, none of the people responsible for it and the other institutions Stack complains about give a rat.

The only crazy part was thinking that an act of suicidal terrorism would make them care.  The whole point of being the ruling class in this plutocracy is not having to care about schmucks like Stack—and you and me.

This case presents a kind of interesting situation.  On one hand we have a person whose actions were clearly criminal, unjust, and counterproductive.  Yes it was a terrorist act.  It was the very definition of a terrorist act.  Just because Americans tend to think of the stereotypical “terrorist” as a religious extremist of the Islamic variety, doesn’t make this just a crazy act.  In fact it appears Mr. Stack’s motivations were very similar to those of the Islamic extremist type.  Just not clothed in religious terminology.  In my view both are acting out a feeling of powerlessness in the face of increasing exploitation and indifference to the human cost it creates.  There are differences in the nuances, but it seems the motivation is very similar.

This is where it gets interesting for me, because reading Mr. Stack’s letter, one can’t help but feel some degree of identification with his feelings and frustrations.  I think a large majority of Americans feel that same sense of powerlessness he expresses.  The same feeling that the beasts have grown beyond their cages, and then have destroyed any semblance of a cage.  Granted, it does seem his motivations and feelings of powerlessness are very colored by his own unique circumstances and failures in life.  Just the same, I think most average citizens of America can find some rather large grains of truth in the writing on those pages.

This identification with motives makes us uncomfortable with labeling Mr. Stack’s act terrorism, because terrorism is what wrong-headed bad people do to right-headed good people.  However so much as we identify with his motives we will feel a conflict in wholly condemning his actions as terrorism. It too much begs the question: Can terrorism be a good thing?  That is very threatening idea for us, because it lurks very close to having some thread of identification with those bad Islamic extremists.  The whole concrete assumption of right/wrong becomes not so concrete and the imperial acts of the United States begin to take on new shades, colors, and nuances. That will make not only the questioning public but the powers that be very wary about labeling Mr. Stack’s act terrorism.  Domestic terrorists threaten to reveal too much of the dark underbelly of American exceptionalism, a look we are not quite ready as a people to make, and that the powers that be are terrified of us making.

Jltnol

A hero? Really? This warped, anti-tax, failed entrepreneur, mindless kamikaze was a hero? The reason he failed as an entrepreneur was because he spent all his money fighting tax laws. I guess this makes him a hero in your eyes. A man who destroys his family, sets out to kill innocents, and commits an act so deranged, is not my idea of a hero. His actions were the actions of a terrorist, but most terrorists have motivations more legitimate than his were.  Personally, I’d have more respect for an assassin, but I don’t think respect for individuals can be measured in metrics less than zero.

You seem to have a propensity for lionizing pathology. The French Revolution is most famous for decapitation mania. Even the head decapitator had his head removed.  All these decapitations lead to nothing other than the rise of another dictator.

I am somewhat in agreement with Night-Gaunt, you may not be murderous, but your mindless postulations are.

Whatever Mr. Stacks motivation, he committed a ‘crime’. However justified, it is a crime. Supposedly we have laws to deal with this.
I do not argue for or against his motive(s) nor the validity or lack of regarding his intentions.
As is with many of our laws, they are many times used to incarcerate people and are many times just as likely ignored and even abused (from banking fraud to immigration to torture to US signatory Geneva Convention agreements etc etc etc….).
No. It is all BS. Terrorism. Homeland. Patriotism.
Yes we all share the world.  But this multitiered mutilation of US (and global)individuality has everything to do with blatant ignoring of the fact that we are not all equal and that our human differences are our greatness. ‘Treating’ each other equally (which is IMHO, the priority in our constitution), has been hijacked. And I would add, by our own lack of due diligence.
Mr. Stark, whatever he intended, or whoever may be contributing and/or behind such acts before and after the fact, is being used as just another excuse to divide us further.
They are trying to close the gates of culture. We can keep them open, but talking about Mr. Stark in this empty way plays into the charade and misses the mark.
This is about us. Always has been. And more important about our children. 
I’m sure that history has given us insight as to how easy it may ‘seem’ to stay silent.
Our leaders are not. We are.

peace

At least this time we had an actual plane hitting an actual building.  Surprising the building didn’t come crumbling down. into its own footprint.

I think the WORD “terrorist” is confused with resistance.

JFK said “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.”

The U.S. government can drop bombs over civilian areas, and then say “we are sorry about the civilian CASUALTIES”. They just call it collateral damage.

Sibel Edmonds in one of her latest articles mentions how she examined the way civilians versus soldiers and Afghan Resistance Fighters are labeled. The Government will include civilians in one of their death bombings as “casualties”. But they are not casualties, as a casualty is someone who is actually involved in the combat (no matter which side). The civilians are VICTIMS.

The man that was killed by Joseph Stack, is a CASUALTY. By his own free will he chose a career in an organization that is in the business of collecting the money of the U.S. citizen FOR THE LARGE BANKS WHOM HOLD STOCK IN THE FEDERAL RESERVE. The entire tax collection is used for interest.

When we have little to none representation in our government, you are simply going to get more and more of these kinds of incidents, where people frustrated end up snapping.

There is a BIG difference in someone like Stack and the U.S. Military as terrorist. Stack is actually doing it due to feeling he is out of alternatives. His motive is not to steal land, take over resources, and help himself to someone else’s wealth, or to kill people. It was a statement of resistance in a world where average people are running out of options against encroaching Tyranny of the few.

There is no other terrorist organization on this planet so apparent as the U.S. government and its employees. Its just a fact. They have all been helping to dismantle the means and ways for people to make peaceful ‘revolutions’.

It should also be noted that many of the “terrorist” acts have actually been the government itself. Such as in Iraq where bombs were planted into peoples cars and detonated making it look like a suicide mission.

The woman who wrote this article is really not too smart. And continuing to call this man’s note a “manifesto” which she picked up from corporate media says where her loyalties are.

There are numerous other ways to commit suicide without killing other people than by flying an airplane into a building which housed not only IRS people but others too. He also robbed his wife and child of a home which, under Texas laws, cannot be taken for debts if it was registered as a homestead.
In my book Mr. Stack was a brain-dead, vengeance-seeking coward.

As long as their is avoidance of looking at Mr. Stacks motivation, there will be no answers, especially from people who don’t seem to understand the impact that economic slavery is having on the people of this country.

Labelling is an easy way out, calling Mr. Stack a terrorist, simply avoids his motivation.

The IRS is the only federal agency that was investigated by congress, and found to be so out of bounds and so abusive to American Taxpayers that they created a federal agency whose sole purpose is to help American’s in their struggles with the IRS. That is the office of Tax payer advocate.

It is well known that the IRS collects a significant amount of money, by intimidating tax payers into paying more than they owe. They have programs that target certain types of returns, and will always subject small buiness owners to intensive scrutiny with the eye for increased collections.

This scrutiny goes on year in year out, and for many small business owners it is a process that takes significant time and resources, and comes at significant expense.

One can only imagine the frustation, the anger, the desperation that went through Mr. Stacks mind that forced him to end his life. But it was an acumulation of many many years, of a nightmare.

If you put on a uniform and wage a war against people, whether that war is with a letter, or an M16, it’s somewhat naive to believe that you are innoscent, that someone else is responsible for your actions.

Unfortunately, for us all, many millions of people in this country are desperate, and have been pushed about as far as they can go. If you add Mr. Stacks behaviors up with, the other acts of desperation and family susicides, a better question is why are these people beyond help?

I wld be wrong to call WH house of horrors and terrors. But i wld call ?all pols, priests, collumnists, editors, judges,cia-fbi-army echelons, ‘eduators’ actors-actresses, singers as hell on earth people.

As i have said many times on other sites, root of all evil that had befallen us on interpersonal and int’l levels over the last 10k yrs, is due to just one iniquity: division of people into less- and more valued.

From this one iniquity arose all wars,slavery,
serfdom, exploitation, abuse of all kinds, etc.

And now we all are neo-indians.tnx

jltnol why do you call upon a failed revolution that lead to massacre and the rise of a dictator that plunged Europe into a devastating war? Why not the successful one here? What is the interest in the failed bloody French Revolution? The one that condemned Thomas Paine to death. (Fortunately he lived.) So that killer is a hero to you? No wonder you like the French Failure. Stay away from me, you’re a killer in waiting.

I have noticed a tendency of our gov’t to control who is a terrorist and who isn’t despite what is done and people who are dead. It is especially telling when within hours of such an attack they are already saying it isn’t “terrorism.” Possibly because when one happens that they can use against us it will be labeled as “terrorism” so fast our heads will spin and the Bill of Rights may then disappear into a vault some wheres.

It seems pretty cut and dried to me—he used a plane as a weapon in a
politically-motivated attack on U.S. economic policy, targeting an arm of the U.S.
government, and without regard to civilian deaths. That’s terrorism. And I think
that people who are reluctant to call it terrorism only do so because it was
committed by a white Christian American who was angry at the U.S. government,
and not some brown-skinned muslim from the Middle East.

obs It seems pretty cut and dried to me—he used a plane as a weapon in a
politically-motivated attack on U.S. economic policy, targeting an arm of the U.S.
government, and without regard to civilian deaths. That’s terrorism. And I think
that people who are reluctant to call it terrorism only do so because it was
committed by a white Christian American who was angry at the U.S. government,
and not some brown-skinned muslim from the Middle East.

Following the precedent set by Bush/Cheney, the War on Terror must now extend to within the homeland. It’s time to “Shock and Awe” that hotbed of domestic terrorism, Texas!

gerard, February 22 at 3:45 pm:
‘The important thing is not what word to use to label this attack, although most of this article centers on what words are correct. ...’

Part of the way people are controlled is by a vocabulary which categorizes violent acts according to the race, religion, class, nationality and so forth of the perpetrator.  If Stack had been a Muslim of Middle Eastern ancestry his acts would have been designated as “terrorism” in order to incite hatred against the enemy of the moment.

gerard, February 22 at 3:45 pm;
If you’re living in the U.s. part of America; you’re no
longer living in a democracy.
Hedges calls it inverted totalitarianism.
There’s a very strong case for the truth of that.
Patriots and citizen activists are now labeled and
treated as criminals at best and terrorists at worst.

He’s a hero.

No, I don’t agree with flying planes into buildings and killing people but look for
many, many other events like this as America slips deeper and deeper into
government “of the corporations, by the corporations, and for the corporations”
and individuals get increasingly more and more desperate.

Think of the French Revolution.  Something similar is way overdue here in the
good old USA.

The important thing is not what word to use to label this attack, although most of this article centers on what words are correct.

The important thing is that people here and now have little or no access to their government.  They have many complaints and grievances, some wholly, some partially justified, and the Constitution guarantees them “the right to petition the government for a redress of grievances”—or reassurances to that effect.

Yet when ordinary people write letters or make phone calls to government officials, they get formal, canned replies if any. When they protest in the street (even nonviolently),  they get either removal to an ineffective distance, or police aggressiveness, scab provocation, arrest, pepper spray, taser and/or deafening noise machines.  And on top of that they get press ocverage portraying them as anything from “kooks” to “anarchists.” 

Democracy absolutely demands open and easy public access to government, and responsiveness from government.  Anything less is not democracy but a form authoritarian persecution. Lack of access is a serious problem these days.